From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 00:02:03 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 01:02:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 2nd Week of Mt Zion Dig Message-ID: <9B91973A-6734-40C3-8803-8B9739396BFC@earthlink.net> There is a report with photos of the 2nd week of the Mt Zion dig up on my jesusdynasty.com/blog. James From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 1 09:00:58 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:00:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 28 Sivan 5768 Message-ID: <8CAA99A059ED282-EE4-D6E@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 28 Sivan 5768 July 1, 2008 Shalom For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declares the end things, and does not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' Habbakuk 2:3 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/83c55a27/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:29:31 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:29:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery In-Reply-To: <8A08779C-58FB-4D1F-8F83-77C9BA6AF875@earthlink.net> References: <8A08779C-58FB-4D1F-8F83-77C9BA6AF875@earthlink.net> Message-ID: What a wonderful read! Thank you for all this information, James. I have long been interested in the murex snail's dye, and this is most exciting! I even remember that BAR article from the May/June 1983 issue that you have copied below! It has also been a pleasure reading and seeing the photos on your www.jesusdynasty.com Blog. Am continuing to pray for all of you as you work to uncover these marvelous discoveries. My love to you, John, Joy Beth, Shimon and all who are gathered in the Land at this time. May you continue to find the hidden treasures of darkness that await you there, and may the funds for this incredible dig be heaped upon you! I added a bit extra to my usual UIWU Tithe this month to be able to participate in at least a small way in this awesome task. (For others who may wish to be a part of the Mount Zion Dig before it is too late, just go to http://digmountzion.com/information/How-to-donate.html and you can contribute via PayPal! - the deadline for contributions is August 1st!) James, please know that your many sacrifices and hard work on behalf of the Regathering/Re-unification of the Whole House of Israel is so very appreciated by us all. B'Ahavah, Pat/Avigail From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery We made a major discovery at the Mt Zion dig on Sunday. One of our team members found a snail of the species murex that was used in ancient times to produce the purple or blue dye (Hebrew tekelet) that was essential for the tzitzit and other "royal" or blue/purple colors in the tabernacle and the priestly garments. Our snail had the hole drilled in it to extract the dye. Only one other example of this snail with the drilled hole has ever been found in Jerusalem, also on Mt Zion, but it was lost. The existence of this snail, where we found it, demonstrates definitively that the tekelet was produced in this manner and used for holy purposes in Jerusalem. There has been some discussion among the scholars and the rabbis as to the source of the blue dye. Our theory is that the dye itself was produced on the coast of the Mediterranean and then shipped to Jerusalem for the actual dying. Probably the snail we found, since they are so rare, was attached with a cord to the vial of dye, to indicate it came from the proper source. One might expect the priests and others in charge of halachic matters would be the ones to do the actual dying and then make these blue cords available to others. Since we are digging in an area of Mt Zion which we think was a priestly residential area, overlooking the Temple (thus the fragments of stone vessels we keep finding), it makes sense this snail shell was found here. We are in one of the more wealthy areas, where the house of Caiaphus was located. What this does is confirm all the more the use of this particular snail for the production of the tekelet in 2nd Temple times, and perhaps even earlier. I suspect our site will yield further secrets in this regard, all related to the Temple, the priesthood, and how things functioned in antiquity. Who knows, we might come down on a room in which the tekelet dying was done in the basement of the home of one of the priests--or even the high priest himself. I will paste in a section of an article from Biblical Archaeology Review (May/June 1983 Volume 9 Number 3: Of Hems and Tassels where Prof. Jacob Milgrom explains the basics: Thus, the significance of the tassel (as well as the elaborate hem) is this: It was worn by those who counted; it was the ?I.D.? of nobility The requirement of a blue cord (petil tekelet) in the tassels lends further support to the notion that the tassels signified nobility because the blue dye used to color the threads was extraordinarily expensive. Recent scholarship has greatly expanded our knowledge of this dye, and we are apparently on the verge of solving the basic mystery of its production. The blue dye was obtained from the hypobranchial gland of the murex snail.5 There are three relevant varieties of the murex snail. The Murex trunculus gives a red color with a violet tinge. The Murex brandaris gives a very delicate violet-pink color, and the Thais haemastoma (also called Purpura haemastoma) gives a violet color.6 Both the red-purple dye (argaman in Hebrew; argamannu in Akkadian) and the blue-purple dye (tekelet in Hebrew; takiltu in Akkadian) were used in the manufacture of the inner curtain of the Tabernacle (Exodus 26:1) and the garments of the high priest (Exodus 28:6, 15, 31). The dye industry from the Murex snail may have originated in the Grecian world rather than in the Phoenician world, as previously supposed. Accumulations of these snail shells have been found in Knossos, Troy and the Attic coast, dating to the early second millennium.7 On the other hand, similar accumulations of snail shells from the 15th century have been found at Ugarit on the Phoenician coast of the Mediterranean. The Murex trunculus can be gathered by hand in the shallow waters off the coast of Lebanon and northern Israel (ancient Phoenicia). Apparently the production of dye from these snails was so important that the city of Haifa in Hellenistic times was called Porphurion?purple. The other two varieties of Murex snails used to make the required dye had to be harvested from deeper waters with the use of nets or traps. The manufacture of the dye is minutely described by the first-century Roman historian and naturalist, Pliny, in his Naturalis Historia. However, his data are insufficient to reproduce the process. Since the middle of the 19th century, European chemists have attacked the problem8, but without success. Recently a group from Lebanon has reported success in reproducing the dye.9 The Center for Maritime Studies of the University of Haifa has been studying the living habits of the snails and simultaneously conducting archaeological research at several installations where the dye was manufactured: Tel Akko, Tel Mor, Shikhmona; and from Tel-Keisan, where the dye may have been imported,10 so we may be very close to solving the mystery of the dye?s production. The method of extracting the dye can be deduced from observing the many ancient shells containing single holes expertly drilled over the locations of the snails? hypobranchial glands. Many others of these ancient shells had been broken at their apex, and this too releases the dye.?11 Though the snails are plentiful, the amount of dye each yields is infinitesimal. In 1909, tests by the Austrian chemist Paul Friedlander demonstrated that 12,000 snails were needed to provide 1.4 grams of dye. No wonder that during the reign of Nabonidus, the last king of Babylon (555?539 B.C.), purple wool was 40 times more expensive than wool dyed with other colors.12 In 200 B.C. one gram of the dye cost $84, or $36,660 per pound. Diocletian paid the equivalent of $8,460 for 328 grams of purple silk from Sidon, or $11,724 per pound. In 300 A.D. the demand raised the price of this Sidonian silk to $98,700 per pound (all figures are in 1983 dollars).13 The Bible apparently assumed that even the poorest Israelite could afford at least four blue threads, one for each tassel.a But only the very rich could afford large quantities of this dye. Indeed, Roman emperors retained for themselves the exclusive privilege of wearing purple mantles, thus giving rise to the color names still used today, ?royal blue? and ?royal purple.? Byzantine emperors were born in purple rooms, i.e. ?born to the purple,? and the title Porphyrogenitus was added to their names. The Bible also affirms that blue cloth was worn by nobility (Ezekiel 23:6; Esther 1:6). Thus, weaving a blue thread petil tekelet into the tassel enhances its symbolism as a mark of nobility. The tassel with a thread of blue signified more than royalty or nobility, however. It also signified the priesthood. We may assume that the thread of blue was made of wool. The ancients had great difficulty in dying linen because the colors would run, so all dyed garments are assumed to be wool.14 A poor man?s garment was commonly made of flax, that is, linen?not the fine, expensive linen worn by the priests (called ses or bus) but the coarse, inexpensive type spun on home looms.15 In Canaan after the Israelite settlement, the people subsisted on a predominantly agricultural economy, and where agriculture predominated, flax was the common cloth. Rahab?s hiding of the spies at Jericho under stalks of flax (Joshua 2:6) is evidence that flax was indigenous to Canaan. The Bible contains a general prohibition against cloth that combines wool and linen, which is referred to by the untranslatable term sha?atnez (Deuteronomy 22:11; cf. Leviticus 19:19). Some of the early commentaries (for example Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Deuteronomy 22:12), however, indicate that sha?atnez?this combination of wool and linen?was sanctioned and even required in priestly garments. And this rabbinic suggestion has now been confirmed archaeologically. Tassels dating to the Bar Kokhba period (c. 135 A.D.) were found in the Dead Sea caves. These tassels were made of white cords of linen and blue cords of wool, demonstrating that the rabbinic teaching was not speculative abstraction but actual practice.16 Thus the reason for the prohibition against sha?atnez?cloth combining wool and linen?is clear: it would resemble some of the priestly garments made from a blend of linen and wool (e.g., Exodus 28:6; 39:29; Mishna Kilayim 9:1). Thus the combination of wool and linen (sha?atnez) is forbidden to the lay Israelite because it is a holy mixture and reserved exclusively for the sanctuary (e.g., Exodus 26:1) and the priests. By using the combination of wool and linen in the tassel, the ordinary Israelite was, however, in a small way, wearing a priestly garment. The passage in Numbers with which we began this article tells us why the tassels are to be worn. They are a mnemonic device, to remind the Israelites to observe the commandments. The Israelites are to look at [the tassel], and recall all the commandments of the Lord and observe them? (Numbers 15:39). But in the next verse (v. 40), the verb sequence is slightly different: they are to ?be reminded? by the tassels, then to ?observe? the commandments and thus ?be holy.? The requirement of the blue thread?royal blue?is a sign that Israel is a people of nobility, whose sovereign is not mortal, but divine. But more than this: Israel is a ?kingdom of priests and a holy nation? (Exodus 19:6). Every Israelite wears his priestly clothing, the tsitsit. The tassels are a reminder of this holiness, as the passage from Numbers makes clear. In short, ?You shall be holy for I, the Lord your God am holy? (Leviticus 19:2; cf. 11:44; 20:26). Though Israelites who are not of the seed of Aaron may not serve as priests (Numbers 17:5), they may?indeed, must?strive for a life of holiness by observing the Lord?s commandments. At one point in history, this was no longer the case, so the rabbis dropped the requirement that the tassels contain a blue thread. Following the two Jewish revolts against Rome (66 A.D.?70 A.D. and 132 A.D.?135 A.D.), each of which ended in devastating defeats for the Jews, the Jewish community was so impoverished that the requirement of a blue thread was abandoned. In addition, a counterfeit blue dye had been developed which was disqualified by the rabbis for use in tassels or tsitsit (Bava Metsia 61b; Menahot 42?43a; Sifre Num. 115). Apparently the desire to prevent the use of this counterfeit blue also led to dropping the requirement of a blue thread. Since the second century, the tassels have been pure white. Tassels are still attached to the four corners of Jewish prayer shawls (tallit) worn in the synagogue and on the corners of the so-called small tallit or tallit katan worn at all times by strictly observant Jews. 5 Ehud Spanier, Elisha Linder, Nira Karmon, Purple Dye?Biology, Archaeology and History (University of Haifa, Center for Maritime Studies, 1980), see also Sifre, Deuteronomy 354; Shabbat 26a; Menahot 42b; Isaac Herzog, ?The Dying of Purple in Ancient Israel? (University of London dissertation, 1919). 6 Joseph Doumet, A Study on the Ancient Purple Color, translated by Robert Cook (Beirut, 1980). 7 Moshe Eilat, ?Blue and Purple,? Encyclopaedia Biblica, Vol. 8, pp. 376?8 (Hebrew, forthcoming). 8 Lloyd B. Jensen, ?Royal Purple of Tyre,? Journal of Near Eastern Studies 22 (1963), pp. 104?18. 9 Doumet, 1980. 10 Spanier, 1980. 11 N. Jidijian, Tyre Through the Ages (Beirut, 1969), Fig. 4, 142; Fig. 5, 138. 12 Yale Oriental Series (New Haven, 1915). 13 Jensen (1963), p. 115. Jensen computed the dollar values for dye and silk based on the dollar?s value in 1963. The figures in the text were calculated by multiplying Jensen?s figures by 2.82, the percentage by which the dollar declined in value between 1963 and 1983. 14 Winifred Needler, ?Three Pieces of Unpatterned Linen from Ancient Egypt in the Royal Ontario Museum,? Textile Manufacture in Northern Roman Provinces (Cambridge, 1970); Alisa Baginski and Amalia Tidhar, Textiles from Egypt (L. A. Mayer Institute for Islamic Art, 1980). 15 Louisa Bellinger, ?Cloth,? Interpreter?s Dictionary of the Bible, I (Nashville, 1962). 16 Yigael Yadin, The Finds from the Bar Kokhba Period in ?The Cave of the Letters? (Jerusalem, 1963) (Hebrew); Yigael Yadin, Bar Kokhba (London, 1971). Aaron Kirschenbaum, ?Concerning the Requirement of White in sisith,? Studies in Judaism, David Kotler Jubilee Volume (Tel Aviv, 1976), pp. 246?52. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/fe008e47/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:31:21 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:31:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Found this after watching Tears of a Princess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yofeh (beautiful), Amber!!!! Thank you so much for this. Love, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Found this after watching Tears of a Princess Regarding the daughter of a king, King David says, "Kal kevudah bat melech penimah" - "The complete glory of the princess is within" (Psalms 45:14) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/a9e73c30/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:48:27 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. In-Reply-To: <4864B20A.7070908@westnet.com.au> References: <4864B20A.7070908@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: We ARE family here, dear Amber, and are most willing to join you in prayer for your family members. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to pray with you. My first prayer is for covering and protection for the little ones, your sister's children. And may your father, brother and sister be awakened to the blessings of Torah awaiting them. I also pray for the strengthening of your father's heart. I'm so thankful to have you and Chris and Lindsey and Bryson in my life. Much love to you dear ones, Pat/Avigail From: chris fordham Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:00 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Joe: I just watched Tears of a Princess for a second time with tears streaming down my face. You have no idea how it affected me seeing the word siblings while viewing the drugs. My brother is hooked on crack cocaine and has five court cases coming up, one of which is for armed robbery. My sister is on multiple drugs as well, her choice being marijuana, which she choices to smoke in front of my niece and nephew whom are in kindergarten and 1st grade. they all live with my Dad who had a heart attack last year. Please everyone pray for my family. Pray with me for them to find Torah. Hope this isn't too much chit chat, just felt I had to share! Amber Fordham 2008/6/27 JOE INDOMENICO : Shalom Chaverim, my apologies for my absence during the past few weeks due to taxing work commitments. This may continue for quite some time until the building deadlines are met. However my Jewish friends from the Gush town of Elei Sinai are now under my employment. What a blessing !!. Infact at the moment there are another two families visiting for holidays. We are spending Shabbat together. There will be at least 20 of us all together in Achdut. It disturbs me when I read comments regarding America being Efrayim or Britain being Mannesheh ? Firstly Efrayim and Mannesheh are tribes of Yisrael and their inherited tribal land as promised by HaShem in the Torah is in the land of YISRAEL not the USA or GB or Canada or Australia. http://www.britam.org/testimonyinrock.html For the past 60 years Yisrael has fought for her survival and by the miracles of HaShem she has survived. Every nation that threatened her from Iraq to Levanon , from Syria to Egypt, from Saudi Arabia to Jordan were all defeated and vanquished. Yisrael enlarged her borders. Yet under President Carter she relinquished the Sinai . Under President Clinton she relinquished Beit Lechem, Chevron, Sh'chem, Ramallah etc. Under President Bush she relinquished the Gaza settlements and Amona with more to come. So from Camp David to Oslo to Wye River to the road map Yisrael has lost more land and her internal security under the American umbrella than all her wars put together. Britain's Empire waned after it's treatment of the Jewish people after WW2 , it's reneging of the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and it's White Paper debacle of 1938. Three strikes and you are out. All the nations where the Jews wandered to became Super powers from Egypt to Spain , from Germany to the USSR to the USA. However their hosts forgot very quickly , similar to the Yosef episode. On the 27th of November 1947 the UN voted for the formation of the State of Yisrael. On the 27th of November 2007 at the Annapolis Conference the Quartet plus a further 46 nations voted for the partitioning of the State of Yisrael for the creation of a Palestinian State. Woe to the World. The word Annapolis has the Hebrew root word "Napol" which means " Fallen". ?? ????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????: ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? ????????. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. ?? ????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. ?? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????. {?} 17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.' {S} On the 25th of August 2005 as my friends were being kicked out of the Gush, compliments of Ms Condi Rice, a category 5 Hurricane by the Katrina was forming in the Caribbean. It then made a bee line for New Orleans, Condi's city. The rest is history. In Judaism there is a biblical concept called " Midda Kenneged Midda " or " Measure for Measure". 8000 citizens of the Gush were made refugees, 800,000 citizens of New Orleans were made refugees. BTW the word Katrina has the Hebrew root word Keter which means "Crown" HaShem was showing the world WHO IS WEARING THE CROWN. The 2005 Hurricane season spawned 26 hurricanes. 26 is the number of HaShem. Any nation including my own Australia that supports a 2 state solution for Eretz Yisrael is committing national suicide.We all have a choice. Do we choose the Golden Oil that feeds our spirit or do we choose the Black Oil that feeds our flesh. HaShem is asking many questions. How many more hurricanes, droughts, earthquakes, economic melt downs and wars will it take to bring us to Teshuva / Repentance. If the USA is Efrayim then why is it engineering the demise of it's Jewish brothers in Yisrael. Land for peace and the politics of appeasement is the sure recipe for disaster. National gloating in this time of Yacov's trouble is a serious offense to HaShem. On this sombre note I am attaching a video for all of you to assess.This video shows the tears of the women of the Gush during the expulsion. My friends from Elei Sinai have asked me to show you their tears, the destruction of their homes whilst the world calls for a Palestinian State. The Black Oil prevails. Please friends consider this with humble and contrite hearts. HaShem is calling out His people from all nations. That is where Efryim is hidden. The truth sometimes is very bitter indeed. Shabbat Shalom Your Achi Joe. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336&q=tears+of+a+princess&ei=4ZtkSP3zBYm-igKc58ES&hl=en _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/bc1dd7fe/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:51:50 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:51:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 28 Sivan 5768 In-Reply-To: <8CAA99A059ED282-EE4-D6E@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAA99A059ED282-EE4-D6E@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: BARUCH HASHEM!!!! Thank you for this, Hanoch! ~ Pat From: youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 10:00 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 28 Sivan 5768 The Lekarev Report 28 Sivan 5768 July 1, 2008 Shalom For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declares the end things, and does not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' Habbakuk 2:3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/d9860dbc/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 1 09:56:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:56:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Baruch HaShem Yaaqov!!! This is indeed a marvelous find! I know that Joe Good will be especially pleased to hear about this and Rabbi Richman as well! I spent a little time late last night reading about some of the fabulous treasures you have been finding on your www.jesusdynasty.com website and am so excited for you. May it be HaShem's will that I am able to join you next summer! My love and prayers go with you and all.and now that I am working, am going to contribute what I can to this awesome work you are doing and to UIWU and your Restoring Abrahamic Faith publication! I am excited to be able to have the opportunity to contribute, even if it is a small amount! All of this is HaShem's work. May He continue to lead and guide you with His Yad Tova and go before you in a mighty way! My love to you dear Yaaqov as always, Elisheva _____ From: uilist-bounces at unitedisrael.org [mailto:uilist-bounces at unitedisrael.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:07 AM To: UI List Subject: Re: [UILIST] Mt Zion Discovery What a wonderful read! Thank you for all this information, James. I have long been interested in the murex snail's dye, and this is most exciting! I even remember that BAR article from the May/June 1983 issue that you have copied below! It has also been a pleasure reading and seeing the photos on your www.jesusdynasty.com Blog. Am continuing to pray for all of you as you work to uncover these marvelous discoveries. My love to you, John, Joy Beth, Shimon and all who are gathered in the Land at this time. May you continue to find the hidden treasures of darkness that await you there, and may the funds for this incredible dig be heaped upon you! I added a bit extra to my usual UIWU Tithe this month to be able to participate in at least a small way in this awesome task. Please know that all your hard work is so very appreciated. B'Ahavah, Pat/Avigail From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:09 AM To: UI List Cc: Joe Good ; Roth Susan Subject: [UILIST] Mt Zion Discovery We made a major discovery at the Mt Zion dig on Sunday. One of our team members found a snail of the species murex that was used in ancient times to produce the purple or blue dye (Hebrew tekelet) that was essential for the tzitzit and other "royal" or blue/purple colors in the tabernacle and the priestly garments. Our snail had the hole drilled in it to extract the dye. Only one other example of this snail with the drilled hole has ever been found in Jerusalem, also on Mt Zion, but it was lost. The existence of this snail, where we found it, demonstrates definitively that the tekelet was produced in this manner and used for holy purposes in Jerusalem. There has been some discussion among the scholars and the rabbis as to the source of the blue dye. Our theory is that the dye itself was produced on the coast of the Mediterranean and then shipped to Jerusalem for the actual dying. Probably the snail we found, since they are so rare, was attached with a cord to the vial of dye, to indicate it came from the proper source. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery What a wonderful read! Thank you for all this information, James. I have long been interested in the murex snail's dye, and this is most exciting! I even remember that BAR article from the May/June 1983 issue that you have copied below! It has also been a pleasure reading and seeing the photos on your www.jesusdynasty.com Blog. Am continuing to pray for all of you as you work to uncover these marvelous discoveries. My love to you, John, Joy Beth, Shimon and all who are gathered in the Land at this time. May you continue to find the hidden treasures of darkness that await you there, and may the funds for this incredible dig be heaped upon you! I added a bit extra to my usual UIWU Tithe this month to be able to participate in at least a small way in this awesome task. (For others who may wish to be a part of the Mount Zion Dig before it is too late, just go to http://digmountzion.com/information/How-to-donate.html and you can contribute via PayPal! - the deadline for contributions is August 1st!) James, please know that your many sacrifices and hard work on behalf of the Regathering/Re-unification of the Whole House of Israel is so very appreciated by us all. B'Ahavah, Pat/Avigail From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:10 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery We made a major discovery at the Mt Zion dig on Sunday. One of our team members found a snail of the species murex that was used in ancient times to produce the purple or blue dye (Hebrew tekelet) that was essential for the tzitzit and other "royal" or blue/purple colors in the tabernacle and the priestly garments. Our snail had the hole drilled in it to extract the dye. Only one other example of this snail with the drilled hole has ever been found in Jerusalem, also on Mt Zion, but it was lost. The existence of this snail, where we found it, demonstrates definitively that the tekelet was produced in this manner and used for holy purposes in Jerusalem. There has been some discussion among the scholars and the rabbis as to the source of the blue dye. Our theory is that the dye itself was produced on the coast of the Mediterranean and then shipped to Jerusalem for the actual dying. Probably the snail we found, since they are so rare, was attached with a cord to the vial of dye, to indicate it came from the proper source. _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/33f95a7c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 1 09:57:14 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:57:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. In-Reply-To: References: <4864B20A.7070908@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAA9A1E22E0428-EE4-1250@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> Hey Amber - ??? There's nothing that I can say that would be as eloquent as what Pat did, so let me just say, "ditto"?for me, too!???They are in my prayers...and you never need to apologize for turning to any of us - we're all here for you. ??? Best wishes, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:48 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. We ARE family here, dear Amber, and are most willing to join you in prayer for your?family members.? Thank you for giving us the opportunity to pray with you.? My first prayer is for covering and protection for the little ones, your sister's children.? And may your father, brother and sister be awakened to the blessings of Torah awaiting them.? I also pray for the strengthening of your father's heart. ? I'm so thankful to?have you and Chris and Lindsey and Bryson in my life. ? Much love to you dear ones, ? Pat/Avigail???? From: chris fordham Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:00 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Joe: ? I just watched Tears of a Princess for a second time with tears streaming down my face.? You have no idea how it affected me seeing the word siblings while viewing the drugs.? My brother is hooked on crack cocaine and has five court cases coming up, one of which is for armed robbery.? My sister is on multiple drugs as well, her choice being marijuana, which she choices to smoke in front of my niece and nephew whom are in?kindergarten and 1st grade.? they all live with my Dad who had a heart attack last year.? Please everyone pray for my family.??Pray with me?for them to find Torah.?? Hope this isn't too much chit chat, just felt I had to share!? ? Amber Fordham 2008/6/27 JOE INDOMENICO : Shalom Chaverim, ?????????????????????????? my apologies for my absence during the past few weeks due to taxing work commitments. This may continue for quite some time until the building deadlines are met. However my Jewish friends from the Gush town of Elei Sinai are now under my employment. What a blessing !!. Infact at the moment there are another two families visiting for holidays. We are spending Shabbat together. There will be at least 20 of us all together in Achdut. ????????????????????????? It disturbs me when I read comments regarding America being Efrayim or Britain being Mannesheh ? Firstly Efrayim and Mannesheh are tribes of Yisrael and their inherited tribal land as promised by HaShem in the Torah is in the land of YISRAEL not the USA or GB or Canada or Australia.? http://www.britam.org/testimonyinrock.html ????????????????????????? For the past 60 years Yisrael has fought for her survival and by the miracles of HaShem she has survived. Every nation that threatened her from Iraq to Levanon , from Syria to Egypt, from Saudi Arabia to Jordan were all defeated and vanquished. Yisrael enlarged her borders. Yet under President Carter she relinquished the Sinai . Under President Clinton she relinquished Beit Lechem, Chevron, Sh'chem, Ramallah etc. Under President Bush she relinquished the Gaza settlements and Amona with more to come. So from Camp David to Oslo to Wye River to the road map Yisrael has lost more land and her internal security under the American umbrella than all her wars put together. Britain's Empire waned after it's treatment of the Jewish people after WW2 , it's reneging of the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and it's White Paper debacle of 1938. Three strikes and you are out. All the nations where the Jews wandered to became Super powers from Egypt to Spain , from Germany to the USSR to the USA. However their hosts forgot very quickly , similar to the Yosef episode. ?????????????????????? On the 27th of November 1947 the UN voted for the formation of the State of Yisrael. On the 27th of November 2007 at the Annapolis Conference the Quartet plus a further 46 nations voted for the partitioning of the State of Yisrael for the creation of a Palestinian State. Woe to the World. The word Annapolis has the Hebrew root word "Napol" which means " Fallen". ????????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????:? ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? ????????. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; ??????????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. ????????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. ???????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????.? {?} 17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.' {S} ???????????????????????? On the 25th of August 2005 as my friends were being kicked out of the Gush, compliments of Ms Condi Rice, a category 5 Hurricane by the Katrina was forming in the Caribbean. It then made a bee line for New Orleans, Condi's city. The rest is history. In Judaism there is a biblical concept called " Midda Kenneged Midda " or " Measure for Measure". 8000 citizens of the Gush were made refugees, 800,000 citizens of New Orleans were made refugees. BTW the word Katrina has the Hebrew root word Keter which means "Crown" HaShem was showing the world WHO IS WEARING THE CROWN. The 2005 Hurricane season spawned 26 hurricanes. 26 is the number of HaShem. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Any nation including my own Australia that supports a 2 state solution for Eretz Yisrael is committing national suicide.We all have a choice. Do we choose the Golden Oil that feeds our spirit or do we choose the Black Oil that feeds our flesh. HaShem is asking many questions. How many more hurricanes, droughts, earthquakes, economic melt downs and wars will it take to bring us to Teshuva / Repentance. If the USA is Efrayim then why is it engineering the demise of it's Jewish brothers in Yisrael. Land for peace and the politics of appeasement is the sure recipe for disaster. National gloating in this time of Yacov's trouble is a serious offense to HaShem. ?????????????????????? On this sombre note I am attaching a video for all of you to assess.This video shows the tears of the women of the Gush during the expulsion. My friends from Elei Sinai have asked me to show you their tears, the destruction of their homes whilst the world calls for a Palestinian State. The Black Oil prevails. Please friends consider this with? humble and contrite hearts. HaShem is calling out His people from all nations. That is where Efryim is hidden. The truth sometimes is very bitter indeed. Shabbat Shalom Your Achi? Joe. ??????????? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336&q=tears+of+a+princess&ei=4ZtkSP3zBYm-igKc58ES&hl=en _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/aaa4878d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 09:57:57 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:57:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The lady plumber & the Nazis Message-ID: --- Subject: Fw: Irena Sendlerowa There recently was a death of a 98 year old lady named Irena. During WWII, Irena, got permission to work in the Warsaw Ghetto, as a Plumbing/Sewer specialist. She had an ulterior motive... She KNEW what the Nazi's plans were for the Jews. Irena smuggled infants out in the bottom of her tool box she carried, and she carried in the back of her truck a Burlap sack, (for larger kids). She also had a dog in the back, that she trained to bark when the Nazisoldiers let her in, and out of the ghetto. The soldiers of course wanted nothing to do with the dog, and the barking covered the kids/infants noises. During her time and course of doing this, she managed to smuggle out and save 2500 kids/infants. She was caught, and the Nazi's broke both her legs, and arms, and beat her severely. Irena kept a record of the names of all the kids she smuggled out, and kept them in a glass jar, buried under a tree in her back yard. After the war, she tried to locate any parents that may have survived it, and reunited the family. Most of course had been gassed. Those kids she helped got placed into foster family homes, or adopted. Last year Irena was up for the Nobel Peace Prize.... She LOST.......... Al Gore won, for a slide show on Global Warming. Check it out: http://www.irenasendler.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/73ac387c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 1 10:03:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:03:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dearest Amber, I have not been able to catch many emails?actually I am supposed to be working now (shhhh, don?t tell anybody!!!!), but I sneaked a peak at the incoming mail?I only have 247 new messages and a total of 748 in my inbox that I want to get around to reading?. Anyway, this one was at the top along with my brother?s message about the dig so I opened it up and am so glad that I did. I too will join Pat in praying for your family and their children?what heartbreaking circumstances they are in?but we know that HaShem and His love and the precious Gift of Torah can reach into any heart?may their hearts be opened!!! You are a precious child of HaShem and my sister and it is a privilege to pray for you and your family. Toda rabba for giving us the opportunity to join you in prayer!!! Got to get back to work?my love and my heart is with you! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:48 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. We ARE family here, dear Amber, and are most willing to join you in prayer for your family members. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to pray with you. My first prayer is for covering and protection for the little ones, your sister's children. And may your father, brother and sister be awakened to the blessings of Torah awaiting them. I also pray for the strengthening of your father's heart. I'm so thankful to have you and Chris and Lindsey and Bryson in my life. Much love to you dear ones, Pat/Avigail From: chris fordham Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:00 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Joe: I just watched Tears of a Princess for a second time with tears streaming down my face. You have no idea how it affected me seeing the word siblings while viewing the drugs. My brother is hooked on crack cocaine and has five court cases coming up, one of which is for armed robbery. My sister is on multiple drugs as well, her choice being marijuana, which she choices to smoke in front of my niece and nephew whom are in kindergarten and 1st grade. they all live with my Dad who had a heart attack last year. Please everyone pray for my family. Pray with me for them to find Torah. Hope this isn't too much chit chat, just felt I had to share! Amber Fordham 2008/6/27 JOE INDOMENICO : Shalom Chaverim, my apologies for my absence during the past few weeks due to taxing work commitments. This may continue for quite some time until the building deadlines are met. However my Jewish friends from the Gush town of Elei Sinai are now under my employment. What a blessing !!. Infact at the moment there are another two families visiting for holidays. We are spending Shabbat together. There will be at least 20 of us all together in Achdut. It disturbs me when I read comments regarding America being Efrayim or Britain being Mannesheh ? Firstly Efrayim and Mannesheh are tribes of Yisrael and their inherited tribal land as promised by HaShem in the Torah is in the land of YISRAEL not the USA or GB or Canada or Australia. http://www.britam.org/testimonyinrock.html For the past 60 years Yisrael has fought for her survival and by the miracles of HaShem she has survived. Every nation that threatened her from Iraq to Levanon , from Syria to Egypt, from Saudi Arabia to Jordan were all defeated and vanquished. Yisrael enlarged her borders. Yet under President Carter she relinquished the Sinai . Under President Clinton she relinquished Beit Lechem, Chevron, Sh'chem, Ramallah etc. Under President Bush she relinquished the Gaza settlements and Amona with more to come. So from Camp David to Oslo to Wye River to the road map Yisrael has lost more land and her internal security under the American umbrella than all her wars put together. Britain's Empire waned after it's treatment of the Jewish people after WW2 , it's reneging of the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and it's White Paper debacle of 1938. Three strikes and you are out. All the nations where the Jews wandered to became Super powers from Egypt to Spain , from Germany to the USSR to the USA. However their hosts forgot very quickly , similar to the Yosef episode. On the 27th of November 1947 the UN voted for the formation of the State of Yisrael. On the 27th of November 2007 at the Annapolis Conference the Quartet plus a further 46 nations voted for the partitioning of the State of Yisrael for the creation of a Palestinian State. Woe to the World. The word Annapolis has the Hebrew root word "Napol" which means " Fallen". ?? ????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????: ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? ????????. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. ?? ????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. ?? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????. {?} 17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.' {S} On the 25th of August 2005 as my friends were being kicked out of the Gush, compliments of Ms Condi Rice, a category 5 Hurricane by the Katrina was forming in the Caribbean. It then made a bee line for New Orleans, Condi's city. The rest is history. In Judaism there is a biblical concept called " Midda Kenneged Midda " or " Measure for Measure". 8000 citizens of the Gush were made refugees, 800,000 citizens of New Orleans were made refugees. BTW the word Katrina has the Hebrew root word Keter which means "Crown" HaShem was showing the world WHO IS WEARING THE CROWN. The 2005 Hurricane season spawned 26 hurricanes. 26 is the number of HaShem. Any nation including my own Australia that supports a 2 state solution for Eretz Yisrael is committing national suicide.We all have a choice. Do we choose the Golden Oil that feeds our spirit or do we choose the Black Oil that feeds our flesh. HaShem is asking many questions. How many more hurricanes, droughts, earthquakes, economic melt downs and wars will it take to bring us to Teshuva / Repentance. If the USA is Efrayim then why is it engineering the demise of it's Jewish brothers in Yisrael. Land for peace and the politics of appeasement is the sure recipe for disaster. National gloating in this time of Yacov's trouble is a serious offense to HaShem. On this sombre note I am attaching a video for all of you to assess.This video shows the tears of the women of the Gush during the expulsion. My friends from Elei Sinai have asked me to show you their tears, the destruction of their homes whilst the world calls for a Palestinian State. The Black Oil prevails. Please friends consider this with humble and contrite hearts. HaShem is calling out His people from all nations. That is where Efryim is hidden. The truth sometimes is very bitter indeed. Shabbat Shalom Your Achi Joe. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336 &q=tears+of+a+princess&ei=4ZtkSP3zBYm-igKc58ES&hl=en _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/28933467/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 1 10:05:05 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:05:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] 28 Sivan 5768 In-Reply-To: <8CAA99A059ED282-EE4-D6E@Webmail-mg03.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <17F0C7AA04EF4CB6B9444CEA1B5F1325@bettygivin> Toda Rabba brother! May we continually keep the reality of this hope in our hearts and live accordingly! Have a good day! B'Ahava to you and all! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:01 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 28 Sivan 5768 The Lekarev Report 28 Sivan 5768 July 1, 2008 Shalom For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declares the end things, and does not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' Habbakuk 2:3 _____ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/64ddf5f9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 1 10:20:46 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 10:20:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Irena Sendler-READ THIS Message-ID: <1A6DC100948B41259E3D06FF97683100@bettygivin> One more.and then I REALLY have to get back to work! This one was forwarded to me by my storm supervisor who is assigning us claims to review from home. He knows I am Jewish and is a strong supporter of Israel. I appreciated it even more so knowing that it came from him. He once asked me why I put the hyphen on G-d, and this gave me an opportunity to explain my faith and the Awesome Nature of the One G-d of Israel!!! Ever since, he has honored me by sharing beautifully relevant stories such as this one.it only takes 3 minutes, and will redeem your belief in humanity if it is being shaken by all that is going on around us! Elisheva _____ YouTube - Irena Sendler This is the kind of story - tribute, really - that comes along only a VERY few times in your life. PLEASE watch this. If you have anything else that is more important, put it on the back burner for less than 3 minutes. It can wait. This is about Irena Sendler - a Polish woman ... but I'm not going to tell you any more. I guarantee that you will sit there, at the end, with your mouth agape at the very least. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/0515f14b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 14:06:21 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:06:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. In-Reply-To: References: <4864B20A.7070908@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Avigail, Hanoch and Betty: I greatly appreciate your kind words and especially your prayers. HaShem has proven that His people are our family. We are so thankful to have met everyone and you all bring joy and knowledge to our lives through Ross's dialogue. Amber Fordham 2008/7/1 Pat Robbins : > We ARE family here, dear Amber, and are most willing to join you in > prayer for your family members. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to > pray with you. My first prayer is for covering and protection for the > little ones, your sister's children. And may your father, brother and > sister be awakened to the blessings of Torah awaiting them. I also pray for > the strengthening of your father's heart. > > I'm so thankful to have you and Chris and Lindsey and Bryson in my life. > > Much love to you dear ones, > > Pat/Avigail > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:00 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. > > Joe: > > I just watched Tears of a Princess for a second time with tears streaming > down my face. You have no idea how it affected me seeing the word siblings > while viewing the drugs. My brother is hooked on crack cocaine and has five > court cases coming up, one of which is for armed robbery. My sister is on > multiple drugs as well, her choice being marijuana, which she choices to > smoke in front of my niece and nephew whom are in kindergarten and 1st > grade. they all live with my Dad who had a heart attack last year. Please > everyone pray for my family. Pray with me for them to find Torah. Hope > this isn't too much chit chat, just felt I had to share! > > Amber Fordham > > 2008/6/27 JOE INDOMENICO : > >> Shalom Chaverim, >> >> my apologies for my absence during the past few >> weeks due to taxing work commitments. This may continue for quite some time >> until the building deadlines are met. However my Jewish friends from the >> Gush town of Elei Sinai are now under my employment. What a blessing !!. >> Infact at the moment there are another two families visiting for holidays. >> We are spending Shabbat together. There will be at least 20 of us all >> together in Achdut. >> >> It disturbs me when I read comments regarding >> America being Efrayim or Britain being Mannesheh ? Firstly Efrayim and >> Mannesheh are tribes of Yisrael and their inherited tribal land as promised >> by HaShem in the Torah is in the land of *YISRAEL* not the USA or GB or >> Canada or Australia. http://www.britam.org/testimonyinrock.html >> >> For the past 60 years Yisrael has fought for her >> survival and by the miracles of HaShem she has survived. Every nation that >> threatened her from Iraq to Levanon , from Syria to Egypt, from Saudi Arabia >> to Jordan were all defeated and vanquished. Yisrael enlarged her borders. >> Yet under President Carter she relinquished the Sinai . Under President >> Clinton she relinquished Beit Lechem, Chevron, Sh'chem, Ramallah etc. Under >> President Bush she relinquished the Gaza settlements and Amona with more to >> come. So from Camp David to Oslo to Wye River to the road map Yisrael has >> lost more land and her internal security under the American umbrella than >> all her wars put together. Britain's Empire waned after it's treatment of >> the Jewish people after WW2 , it's reneging of the Balfour Declaration of >> 1917 and it's White Paper debacle of 1938. Three strikes and you are out. >> All the nations where the Jews wandered to became Super powers from Egypt to >> Spain , from Germany to the USSR to the USA. However their hosts forgot very >> quickly , similar to the Yosef episode. >> >> On the 27th of November 1947 the UN voted for the >> formation of the State of Yisrael. On the 27th of November 2007 at the >> Annapolis Conference the Quartet plus a further 46 nations voted for the >> partitioning of the State of Yisrael for the creation of a Palestinian >> State. Woe to the World. The word Annapolis has the Hebrew root word *"Napol" >> *which means * >> " Fallen". >> * >> >> *??* ????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? >> ????? ?????? ????????: ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? >> ????????. *14* so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim >> thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and >> for Zion with a great jealousy; *??* ??????? ??????? ????? ?????, >> ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? >> ??????? ???????. *15* *and I am very sore displeased with the nations >> that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for >> evil.* *??* ????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? >> ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) >> ????????, ???-????????????. *16* Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return >> to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD >> of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. *??* ???? >> ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; >> ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????. {?} *17*Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again >> overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet >> choose Jerusalem.' *{S}* >> >> On the 25th of August 2005 as my friends were >> being kicked out of the Gush, compliments of Ms Condi Rice, a category 5 >> Hurricane by the *Katrina *was forming in the Caribbean. It then made a >> bee line for New Orleans, Condi's city. The rest is history. In Judaism >> there is a biblical concept called *" Midda Kenneged Midda "* or *" >> Measure for Measure".* 8000 citizens of the Gush were made refugees, >> 800,000 citizens of New Orleans were made refugees. BTW the word *Katrina >> *has the Hebrew root word *Keter *which means *"Crown"* HaShem was >> showing the world *WHO IS WEARING THE CROWN.* The 2005 Hurricane season >> spawned 26 hurricanes. *26* is the number of HaShem. >> >> Any nation including my own Australia that >> supports a 2 state solution for Eretz Yisrael is committing national >> suicide.We all have a choice. Do we choose the *Golden Oil* that feeds >> our spirit or do we choose the *Black Oil* that feeds our flesh. HaShem >> is asking many questions. How many more hurricanes, droughts, earthquakes, >> economic melt downs and wars will it take to bring us to Teshuva / >> Repentance. If the USA is Efrayim then why is it engineering the demise of >> it's Jewish brothers in Yisrael. Land for peace and the politics of >> appeasement is the sure recipe for disaster. National gloating in this time >> of Yacov's trouble is a serious offense to HaShem. >> >> On this sombre note I am attaching a video for all >> of you to assess.This video shows the tears of the women of the Gush during >> the expulsion. My friends from Elei Sinai have asked me to show you their >> tears, the destruction of their homes whilst the world calls for a >> Palestinian State. The Black Oil prevails. Please friends consider this >> with humble and contrite hearts. HaShem is calling out His people from all >> nations. That is where Efryim is hidden. The truth sometimes is very bitter >> indeed. >> >> *Shabbat Shalom >> Your Achi Joe. >> * >> >> >> >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3917978239754572336&q=tears+of+a+princess&ei=4ZtkSP3zBYm-igKc58ES&hl=en >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/dcbd3125/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 1 15:48:25 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:48:25 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Found this after watching Tears of a Princess Message-ID: <486A9819.9090700@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/4d4a60ad/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 1 16:25:01 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:25:01 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery] Message-ID: <486AA0AD.6050801@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/00c896f4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:10:00 -0400 Size: 35555 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/00c896f4/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 1 20:46:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 21:46:00 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The discovery on Mt. Zion Message-ID: Shalom James - Great stuff, way to go!! I personally, first fulfilled the Mitzvah of wearing real Techelet on my tzitzit, just 14 years ago. Although the actual snail is small - it's actually a HUGE step in our collective redemptive process. B'Hatzlacha!! B'Ahava, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/a514950a/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 1 21:02:28 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 22:02:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Found this after watching Tears of a Princess In-Reply-To: <486A9819.9090700@westnet.com.au> References: <486A9819.9090700@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Okay Joe........I'm crying again - TEARS OF JOY this time! What a beautiful Psalm (and so fitting) and the music is so moving! Thank you so much! HaShem IS my vindicator! You have no idea how much He has vindicated me! I have seen Him do unbelievable things in our life in the last five years. He answers prayers! When I was distressed He DID set me free! He has been merciful to all of us. It is through His grace alone that my brother is still alive. He hears prayers! May none of us shame His honor. I pray my brother and sister will stop loving what is vain and stop chasing after lies. May HaShem set us all apart. He hears us calling to Him. I'm angry at unrighteousness and sin but not at my siblings. I will never condemn my brother and sister because I saw and know what sent them down the road they are on. I use to carry around the guilt for leaving them behind because I ran away when I was 15. He took all the depression and guilt away and healed my pain five years ago. He has given me SO much joy I can't contain it! The peace and security He gives is priceless! I know He will be gracious and hear this prayer also. I just love my Daddy and my siblings and pray they will hear Him speak to them one day soon. We show them love every chance we get, that's what they need the most. Thanks to ALL who are praying with us! Amber 2008/7/1 JOE INDOMENICO : > Shalom Chris and Amber, > > > I am very saddened to hear about Amber's siblings.Amber you too are a * > princess*. Despite the tragedy that has earmarked your family, your tears > have also flowed with the Avahah of HaShem. Whilst the world is ready to > condemn your siblings because of their actions , my heart's desire and > prayer is that HaShem gives you His caring love and wisdom to understand > the cause of this tragedy and to then to apply the healing balm of comfort > and love. > > > The world of drugs is a world of escape. A world that makes us forget all > our troubles. A world of make believe. May all our prayers be united with > Chris and Amber to make the true reality of HaShem's world a beacon of light > in a sea of darkness. Amber, your tears of a princess will not be in vain. > Keep on loving and comforting your family even when all seems lost. May all > our prayers be unified and stand behind you . May the will of HaShem be done > for the best. His councils are always mysterious but perfect and just. *L' > OLAM CHASDO......... HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER. > * > Psalms Chapter 4 *?* ??????????? ????????????, ???????? ???????. *1* For > the Leader; with string-music. A Psalm of David. > *?* ??????????, ??????? ??????? ???????--???????, ??????????? ????; > ????????, ???????? ???????????. *2* Answer me when I call, O God of my > righteousness, Thou who didst set me free when I was in distress; be > gracious unto me, and hear my prayer. > *?* ?????? ?????, ???-??? ???????? ??????????--??????????? ????; > ??????????? ????? ?????. *3* O ye sons of men, how long shall my glory be > put to shame, in that ye love vanity, and seek after falsehood? Selah > *?* ???????--????-??????? ??????, ?????? ???; ?????? ????????, > ?????????? ??????. *4* But know that the LORD hath set apart the godly man > as His own; the LORD will hear when I call unto Him. > *?* ???????, ?????-??????????: ??????? ???????????, > ???-?????????????; ???????? ?????. *5* Tremble, and sin not; commune with > your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah > *?* ??????? ???????-?????; ?????????, ???-??????. *6* Offer the > sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD. > *?* ??????? ????????, ???-?????????-????: ????? ????????, ???? > ???????? ??????. *7* Many there are that say: 'Oh that we could see some > good!' LORD, lift Thou up the light of Thy countenance upon us. > *?* ???????? ???????? ????????; ????? ???????? ???????????? ??????. * > 8* Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than when their corn and their > wine increase. > *?* ?????????? ????????, ??????????? ?????????: ????-?????? ?????? > ???????; ???????, ?????????????. > > *9* In peace will I both lay me down and sleep; for Thou, LORD, makest me > dwell alone in safety. *{P} > * > > Let us all meditate on this beautiful Psalm sung in Hebrew. > > http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0004_4_Psalm&PHPSESSID=a2aec759154b27d90a220df0b1f52624 > > Shalom v'Avahah > > *JOE.* > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080701/248cfccb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 2 05:17:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:17:08 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Report for 29 Sivan 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 29 Sivan 5768 July 2, 2008 Shalom Hashem, I have heard Your report, and am afraid; O Hashem, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember compassion. Habbakuk 3:2 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/c9883eb3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 2 05:27:26 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:27:26 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] What don't 'we get?' Message-ID: This is the 3rd terrorist attack perpetrated by arabs occupying Eastern Jerusalem, since February. What IS IT that we just don't understand?? How much more will happen before we "GET IT?" Hanoch Terrorist Bulldozer Rampages in Jerusalem, Murders Four by Hillel Fendel (IsraelNN.com) An Arab terrorist from eastern Jerusalem commandeered a bulldozer in downtown Jerusalem just before noon Wednesday, ramming buses and crushing cars. Four people were murdered in the unprcedented attack. Israel News photos: Moti Boksin, Zaka organization Two policemen caught up with the tractor and climbed inside. They first struggled with the terrorist-driver, and the driver stopped - but then abruptly started up again, until he was shot and killed, putting an end to the murderous spree. Over 20 injuries have been reported, including four dead and six in moderate or serious condition. Most of the bus passengers are reported to have suffered only light injuries, though at least one - an infant - is in serious condition. As of 1 PM, two babies in light condition are in Shaarei Tzedek Hospital - but their parents have not yet been located. Magen David Adom sources confirm that the incident, which began at the intersection of Jaffa and Sarei Yisrael Streets, was a terror attack. The Arab tractor driver crushed or damaged at least three cars and two buses. One Toyota car, for instance, is totally crushed; the woman driver was killed. An emergency situation was declared in the capital. An eyewitness said that he saw the bulldozer ram the bus several times, and then continue on in his attempt to run down passersby and cars. "Some cars were able to get away, but at least one was not, and he rammed his shovel right into the windshield," the man said. Construction work on the new light-railway is taking place in the area, and Arab workers, including tractor drivers, are a familiar sight on the scene. The overturned bus lay on its side on the sidewalk outside the old Shaarei Tzedek building, which are the current offices and studios of the Israel Broadcasting Authority. Several reporters were eyewitnesses to the attack. The security services are investigating whether the terrorist was acting alone and without backing from a known terrorist organization, as was apparently the case this past March, when an eastern Jerusalem terrorist murdered seven students in Yeshivat Merkaz HaRav. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/5bdc9f73/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 2 08:31:05 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery] In-Reply-To: <486AA0AD.6050801@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <794592.81853.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ditto to James. Our Rabbi in Waterbury always said that when the Tekelet is found, the coming of Maschiach is imminent. With all that is going on in the world, the timing seems perfect! This portion of Psm. 68 comes to my mind today: Sing unto G-d, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the L-rd; To Him that rides upon the heaven of heavens, which were of old; Lo, He sends out His vpoice, and that a mighty voice. Ascribe your strength unto G-d: His excellency is over Israel, And His strength is in the clouds. O G-d of Israel is He that gives strength and power unto His people. Blessed be G-d. Love and blessings to ALL, Linda?Hadassah JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom James, Absolutely overwhelming news regarding your discovery at the dig in Yerushalayim. Together with Hanoch's "Lekarev Report ", on Habbakuk 2 v 3, can it get even better. The Rabbis and Sages say that when the Tekelet is found the coming of Maschiach is imminent.Amen v' Amen. Keep up the hard work. Our prayers and aspirations are behind you. Todah Rabbah James for doing the investigative work of HaShem. May we nickname you Sherlock. Best Regards Joe. From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:10:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion Discovery We made a major discovery at the Mt Zion dig on Sunday. One of our team members found a snail of the species murex that was used in ancient times to produce the purple or blue dye (Hebrew tekelet) that was essential for the tzitzit and other "royal" or blue/purple colors in the tabernacle and the priestly garments. Our snail had the hole drilled in it to extract the dye. Only one other example of this snail with the drilled hole has ever been found in Jerusalem, also on Mt Zion, but it was lost. The existence of this snail, where we found it, demonstrates definitively that the tekelet was produced in this manner and used for holy purposes in Jerusalem. There has been some discussion among the scholars and the rabbis as to the source of the blue dye. Our theory is that the dye itself was produced on the coast of the Mediterranean and then shipped to Jerusalem for the actual dying. Probably the snail we found, since they are so rare, was attached with a cord to the vial of dye, to indicate it came from the proper source. One might expect the priests and others in charge of halachic matters would be the ones to do the actual dying and then make these blue cords available to others. Since we are digging in an area of Mt Zion which we think was a priestly residential area, overlooking the Temple (thus the fragments of stone vessels we keep finding), it makes sense this snail shell was found here. We are in one of the more wealthy areas, where the house of Caiaphus was located. What this does is confirm all the more the use of this particular snail for the production of the tekelet in 2nd Temple times, and perhaps even earlier. I suspect our site will yield further secrets in this regard, all related to the Temple, the priesthood, and how things functioned in antiquity. Who knows, we might come down on a room in which the tekelet dying was done in the basement of the home of one of the priests--or even the high priest himself. I will paste in a section of an article from Biblical Archaeology Review (May/June 1983 Volume 9 Number 3: Of Hems and Tassels where Prof. Jacob Milgrom explains the basics: Thus, the significance of the tassel (as well as the elaborate hem) is this: It was worn by those who counted; it was the ?I.D.? of nobility The requirement of a blue cord (petil tekelet) in the tassels lends further support to the notion that the tassels signified nobility because the blue dye used to color the threads was extraordinarily expensive. Recent scholarship has greatly expanded our knowledge of this dye, and we are apparently on the verge of solving the basic mystery of its production. The blue dye was obtained from the hypobranchial gland of the murex snail.5 There are three relevant varieties of the murex snail. The Murex trunculus gives a red color with a violet tinge. The Murex brandaris gives a very delicate violet-pink color, and the Thais haemastoma (also called Purpura haemastoma) gives a violet color.6 Both the red-purple dye (argaman in Hebrew; argamannu in Akkadian) and the blue-purple dye (tekelet in Hebrew; takiltu in Akkadian) were used in the manufacture of the inner curtain of the Tabernacle (Exodus 26:1) and the garments of the high priest (Exodus 28:6, 15, 31). The dye industry from the Murex snail may have originated in the Grecian world rather than in the Phoenician world, as previously supposed. Accumulations of these snail shells have been found in Knossos, Troy and the Attic coast, dating to the early second millennium.7 On the other hand, similar accumulations of snail shells from the 15th century have been found at Ugarit on the Phoenician coast of the Mediterranean. The Murex trunculus can be gathered by hand in the shallow waters off the coast of Lebanon and northern Israel (ancient Phoenicia). Apparently the production of dye from these snails was so important that the city of Haifa in Hellenistic times was called Porphurion?purple. The other two varieties of Murex snails used to make the required dye had to be harvested from deeper waters with the use of nets or traps. The manufacture of the dye is minutely described by the first-century Roman historian and naturalist, Pliny, in his Naturalis Historia. However, his data are insufficient to reproduce the process. Since the middle of the 19th century, European chemists have attacked the problem8, but without success. Recently a group from Lebanon has reported success in reproducing the dye.9 The Center for Maritime Studies of the University of Haifa has been studying the living habits of the snails and simultaneously conducting archaeological research at several installations where the dye was manufactured: Tel Akko, Tel Mor, Shikhmona; and from Tel-Keisan, where the dye may have been imported,10 so we may be very close to solving the mystery of the dye?s production. The method of extracting the dye can be deduced from observing the many ancient shells containing single holes expertly drilled over the locations of the snails? hypobranchial glands. Many others of these ancient shells had been broken at their apex, and this too releases the dye.?11 Though the snails are plentiful, the amount of dye each yields is infinitesimal. In 1909, tests by the Austrian chemist Paul Friedlander demonstrated that 12,000 snails were needed to provide 1.4 grams of dye. No wonder that during the reign of Nabonidus, the last king of Babylon (555?539 B.C.), purple wool was 40 times more expensive than wool dyed with other colors.12 In 200 B.C. one gram of the dye cost $84, or $36,660 per pound. Diocletian paid the equivalent of $8,460 for 328 grams of purple silk from Sidon, or $11,724 per pound. In 300 A.D. the demand raised the price of this Sidonian silk to $98,700 per pound (all figures are in 1983 dollars).13 The Bible apparently assumed that even the poorest Israelite could afford at least four blue threads, one for each tassel.a But only the very rich could afford large quantities of this dye. Indeed, Roman emperors retained for themselves the exclusive privilege of wearing purple mantles, thus giving rise to the color names still used today, ?royal blue? and ?royal purple.? Byzantine emperors were born in purple rooms, i.e. ?born to the purple,? and the title Porphyrogenitus was added to their names. The Bible also affirms that blue cloth was worn by nobility (Ezekiel 23:6; Esther 1:6). Thus, weaving a blue thread petil tekelet into the tassel enhances its symbolism as a mark of nobility. The tassel with a thread of blue signified more than royalty or nobility, however. It also signified the priesthood. We may assume that the thread of blue was made of wool. The ancients had great difficulty in dying linen because the colors would run, so all dyed garments are assumed to be wool.14 A poor man?s garment was commonly made of flax, that is, linen?not the fine, expensive linen worn by the priests (called ses or bus) but the coarse, inexpensive type spun on home looms.15 In Canaan after the Israelite settlement, the people subsisted on a predominantly agricultural economy, and where agriculture predominated, flax was the common cloth. Rahab?s hiding of the spies at Jericho under stalks of flax (Joshua 2:6) is evidence that flax was indigenous to Canaan. The Bible contains a general prohibition against cloth that combines wool and linen, which is referred to by the untranslatable term sha?atnez (Deuteronomy 22:11; cf. Leviticus 19:19). Some of the early commentaries (for example Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Deuteronomy 22:12), however, indicate that sha?atnez?this combination of wool and linen?was sanctioned and even required in priestly garments. And this rabbinic suggestion has now been confirmed archaeologically. Tassels dating to the Bar Kokhba period (c. 135 A.D.) were found in the Dead Sea caves. These tassels were made of white cords of linen and blue cords of wool, demonstrating that the rabbinic teaching was not speculative abstraction but actual practice.16 Thus the reason for the prohibition against sha?atnez?cloth combining wool and linen?is clear: it would resemble some of the priestly garments made from a blend of linen and wool (e.g., Exodus 28:6; 39:29; Mishna Kilayim 9:1). Thus the combination of wool and linen (sha?atnez) is forbidden to the lay Israelite because it is a holy mixture and reserved exclusively for the sanctuary (e.g., Exodus 26:1) and the priests. By using the combination of wool and linen in the tassel, the ordinary Israelite was, however, in a small way, wearing a priestly garment. The passage in Numbers with which we began this article tells us why the tassels are to be worn. They are a mnemonic device, to remind the Israelites to observe the commandments. The Israelites are to look at [the tassel], and recall all the commandments of the Lord and observe them? (Numbers 15:39). But in the next verse (v. 40), the verb sequence is slightly different: they are to ?be reminded? by the tassels, then to ?observe? the commandments and thus ?be holy.? The requirement of the blue thread?royal blue?is a sign that Israel is a people of nobility, whose sovereign is not mortal, but divine. But more than this: Israel is a ?kingdom of priests and a holy nation? (Exodus 19:6). Every Israelite wears his priestly clothing, the tsitsit. The tassels are a reminder of this holiness, as the passage from Numbers makes clear. In short, ?You shall be holy for I, the Lord your God am holy? (Leviticus 19:2; cf. 11:44; 20:26). Though Israelites who are not of the seed of Aaron may not serve as priests (Numbers 17:5), they may?indeed, must?strive for a life of holiness by observing the Lord?s commandments. At one point in history, this was no longer the case, so the rabbis dropped the requirement that the tassels contain a blue thread. Following the two Jewish revolts against Rome (66 A.D.?70 A.D. and 132 A.D.?135 A.D.), each of which ended in devastating defeats for the Jews, the Jewish community was so impoverished that the requirement of a blue thread was abandoned. In addition, a counterfeit blue dye had been developed which was disqualified by the rabbis for use in tassels or tsitsit (Bava Metsia 61b; Menahot 42?43a; Sifre Num. 115). Apparently the desire to prevent the use of this counterfeit blue also led to dropping the requirement of a blue thread. Since the second century, the tassels have been pure white. Tassels are still attached to the four corners of Jewish prayer shawls (tallit) worn in the synagogue and on the corners of the so-called small tallit or tallit katan worn at all times by strictly observant Jews. 5 Ehud Spanier, Elisha Linder, Nira Karmon, Purple Dye?Biology, Archaeology and History (University of Haifa, Center for Maritime Studies, 1980), see also Sifre, Deuteronomy 354; Shabbat 26a; Menahot 42b; Isaac Herzog, ?The Dying of Purple in Ancient Israel? (University of London dissertation, 1919). 6 Joseph Doumet, A Study on the Ancient Purple Color, translated by Robert Cook (Beirut, 1980). 7 Moshe Eilat, ?Blue and Purple,? Encyclopaedia Biblica, Vol. 8, pp. 376?8 (Hebrew, forthcoming). 8 Lloyd B. Jensen, ?Royal Purple of Tyre,? Journal of Near Eastern Studies 22 (1963), pp. 104?18. 9 Doumet, 1980. 10 Spanier, 1980. 11 N. Jidijian, Tyre Through the Ages (Beirut, 1969), Fig. 4, 142; Fig. 5, 138. 12 Yale Oriental Series (New Haven, 1915). 13 Jensen (1963), p. 115. Jensen computed the dollar values for dye and silk based on the dollar?s value in 1963. The figures in the text were calculated by multiplying Jensen?s figures by 2.82, the percentage by which the dollar declined in value between 1963 and 1983. 14 Winifred Needler, ?Three Pieces of Unpatterned Linen from Ancient Egypt in the Royal Ontario Museum,? Textile Manufacture in Northern Roman Provinces (Cambridge, 1970); Alisa Baginski and Amalia Tidhar, Textiles from Egypt (L. A. Mayer Institute for Islamic Art, 1980). 15 Louisa Bellinger, ?Cloth,? Interpreter?s Dictionary of the Bible, I (Nashville, 1962). 16 Yigael Yadin, The Finds from the Bar Kokhba Period in ?The Cave of the Letters? (Jerusalem, 1963) (Hebrew); Yigael Yadin, Bar Kokhba (London, 1971). Aaron Kirschenbaum, ?Concerning the Requirement of White in sisith,? Studies in Judaism, David Kotler Jubilee Volume (Tel Aviv, 1976), pp. 246?52. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.3/1527 - Release Date: 6/30/2008 6:07 PM _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/67fe4e99/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 2 09:48:58 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:48:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Message-ID: <8CAAA69E4A9F8F7-A34-1B11@webmail-mf05.sysops.aol.com> I just wish they had shot the terrorist animal sooner.... ???????????????????? Hanoch http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/998340.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/ce0e681b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Jul 2 17:00:13 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:00:13 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths Blog and Emunah Paths Podcasts: Mass Murder by a Father of Two Message-ID: <486BFA6D.20709@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/196b1588/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 2 18:01:19 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths Blog and Emunah Paths Podcasts: Mass Murder by a Father of Two Message-ID: <742046.9599.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, for this reality check, Joe. Amen and Amen. Kind regards, Helen ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 6:00:13 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths Blog and Emunah Paths Podcasts: Mass Murder by a Father of Two Shalom Hanoch, This whole episode including the Yeshiva killings last March in Yerushalayim seems like a bad dream. However, the reality is that more innocent Jewish people are now dead. May our prayers be with the families and loved ones of the brutally slain. What makes both incidences appalling is the underlying issue that both cold blood murders were Yisraeli Arabs that were working for Jewish companies. These men loved death more than life and their own families. They chose methods that would create the most extreme psychological effect on the Jewish society. The Yisraeli Supreme Court ruling in it's mad pursuit to be politically correct is as much to blame for this carnage. However one must wonder whether the Jewish companies are seeking to maximize their profits through the cheap labour supplied by the Arabs. Are the lives of innocent people less important than material profits.... chas v'shalom ? Meanwhile the West which is also to blame for manufacturing this whole nightmare rings it's hands. Why are we so surprised ? Would we expect anything less ? And yet we continue down this spiraling road map to death and destruction. The leaders of the West seem hell bent on pursuing this madness. Hanoch, my Achi, you are in your rights to be extremely upset with this wanton waste of Jewish life. I too stand with you and the national grieving of the people of Yisrael. I have no answers , only condolences for those affected by these tragedies. I do have firm bitachon and emunah in HaShem. As the Tehelim says : Psalms Chapter 2 ?????????, ???????? ??????; ?? ???????????, ????????-????. 1 Why are the nations in an uproar? And why do the peoples mutter in vain? ???????????????, ???????-?????-- ?? ??????????? ????????-?????: ???-??????, ?? ?????-?????????. 2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together, {N} against the LORD, and against His anointed: ?????????????, ???-??????????????; ?? ????????????? ????????? ??????????. 3 'Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.' ?????????? ???????????? ????????: ?? ???????, ???????-?????. 4 He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision. ?????? ???????? ???????? ????????; ?? ???????????? ???????????. 5 Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure: ??????????, ?????????? ????????: ?? ???-???????, ???-????????. 6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.' ?????????????, ???-???: ?? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ??????--?????, ??????? ????????????. 7 I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee. ????????? ?????????--?????????? ??????, ??????????; ?? ?????????????, ???????-?????. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession. ???????????, ????????? ????????: ?? ???????? ?????? ???????????. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.' ???????????, ???????? ????????????; ?? ??????????, ???????? ?????. 10 Now therefore, O ye kings, be wise; be admonished, ye judges of the earth. ??????????? ???-?????? ??????????; ?? ????????, ??????????. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. ?????????????-???, ????-??????? ?????????? ??????-- ?? ????-??????? ???????? ??????: ????????, ?? ????-?????? ???. 12 Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. {N} Happy are all they that take refuge in Him. {P} We can only understand that HaShem is in control. Why ? HaShem knows ! Let us bow down to his Omnipotence. Selah. Your Achi Joe. http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/2008/07/mass-murder-by-father-of-two.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/dc601fd2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 2 20:09:11 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:09:11 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Message-ID: I apologize to all pet owners for using the word "animal" - I was just hesitant about using the appropriate profanity.. Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/6397ae1d/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Jul 2 21:14:48 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:14:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03bc01c8dcb2$93613590$ba23a0b0$@com> Shalom All, Yeshua said, Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that persecute you..Put up your sword into its place.He that lives by the sword will die by the sword, etc. This is where most don't "get it". When we can understand and strive for this, I believe YHWH will return and once again dwell with His people and do battle as He did in the days of old. We cannot achieve peace with hatred and violence - it isn't working. Now I am not saying that this terrorist didn't receive his due fate, but to gloat is not The Way of the Creator: If your enemy falls, do not exult; If he trips, let your heart not rejoice, Lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and avert His wrath from him. (Proverbs 24:17-18) Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist I apologize to all pet owners for using the word "animal" - I was just hesitant about using the appropriate profanity.. Hanoch _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080702/9a8552c1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 03:44:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 04:44:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Message-ID: Hi Patty - Interesting reaction, but perhapes you didn't read the reports of what this horrific creature did (please see below). You chose to quote Yeshua...but I'm left thinking of a saying from the Judaic tradition - "He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful..." (it's 4:30am, I'll write the source in later). Please note the part about the baby....and YES, he should have been killed sooner - and he should NEVER have been an 'Israeli citizen.' He would have harmed far less...Israel is NOT a John Lennon song, it's not a matter of 'give peace a chance.' Jews are dying....and will continue to, until the muslim occupiers are removed from the Land of Israel.... Hanoch Jerusalem Victims Identified Hundreds of relatives and friends attended the funeral of Elizabeth (Lili) Goren-Friedman who was killed in the deadly terrorist attack in Jerusalem. Goren-Friedman, 54, was laid to rest at the Har HaMenuchot cemetery at Givat Shaul. Elizabeth, a resident of Jerusalem, was killed when the massive bulldozer operated by the terrorist crushed her to death. She was a teacher at a school for the blind in the city. "Lili was a veteran teacher, in charge of the syllabus, an educator and at one point the vice principal," Principal Rachel Sakrovish told reporters. "It is hard to talk about Lili in the past tense, she's an amazing person. There wasn't a student that Lily didn't help advance on a personal, educational and rehabilitative level. We knew that if a student was falling behind and struggling, Lili would work tirelessly to help them." Elizabeth is survived by three children - Zvi, 23, Issachar, 19 and Yael, 16. ****************************************************************************** ******** The second name cleared for publication is that of Bat Sheva Unterman, 33. Also from Jerusalem, her five-month-old daughter Efrat was with her when she too was crushed to death. In her last moments she was able to unclasp the belt of her daughter's chair, saving her life. Amazingly, the infant was extracted from the crumpled car by paramedics, completely unharmed. Unterman's family knew she was in the area of the attack as she had taken Efrat to the HMO. They tried contacting her, but to no avail. "This is a quiet, modest family. We prefer not going into details about this. We will honor her in a personal manner," said a relative. Unterman, who taught at a pre-school, is survived by her husband and three daughters. ****************************************************************************** ********** Jean Relevy, 68, of the Jerusalem neighborhood of Gilo, was about to become a first-time grandfather in about a month. He was hit by the raging bulldozer while driving his car as part of his daily work routine. He installed air conditioners for a living. He is survived by his wife, two daughters and a son. According to his nephew, Nati Avner, "he was one of the most special people I knew, always thinking about others. The family was his happiness, and he was always looking for a platform to help people." Relevy was the youngest child in a family of seven children. His mother died several months after his birth, and he was raised at his sister's home. He immigrated to Israel from Iran with his father in 1949, after the family had spent nine years in India. Saving the Babies The heart-wrenching story of five-month-old Efrat Onterman, left motherless after the murderous terror attack on Wednesday in Jerusalem, has swept the nation. Her mother Batsheva Unterman was crushed to death right next to her during the terrorist's tractor rampage, and it is nothing short of miraculous that the baby was untouched. Batsheva was laid to rest last night at the Har Hamenuchot Cemetery in Jerusalem. Eyal Zehavi, a Magen David Adom paramedic who rushed to the scene with his wife treated both Efrat and another infant, seven months old. "Someone passed the baby to me and screamed, "I just saved her from the car in which her mother was killed," said Zehavi. "It took me a minute and a half to check her, I did an extensive examination of her body, looked for broken bones, wounds and breathing difficulties but thankfully she was fine and I transferred her to the ambulance which took her to the Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem." Zehavi and his wife, who is seven months pregnant and also in the medical field, helped move the body of the baby girl's mother so it could be evacuated. Moments later Zehavi had a second baby to treat, seven month old Ophir Sinai, who had been with her mother, Shani, on one of the buses hit by the bulldozer. Shani told reporters, "My daughter was sitting in her carriage when suddenly I saw people running towards the bus. At first I thought they wanted to look in and then I saw a tractor coming our way from the other side. We were sitting on the side that turned over on the sidewalk and people fell on us. My daughter was crushed and glass was flying all around us. "We got out through the bus' windshield. Two people came our way to help, one of them was bandaged and I asked him, you, in your state, you are helping me? I didn't even have a chance to thank him." An off-duty soldier took the gun from an elite policeman at the scene and shot the terrorist dead. In a bizarre coincidence, the soldier, Moshe Klessner, 18, is the brother-in-law of IDF officer David Shapira, who killed the terrorist in the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva attack, Channel 2 reported. Witnesses reported that the terrorist shouted "Allahu Akbar" as he crushed vehicles and people with the tractor. This is the Islamic chant shouted by terrorists before they kill the "infidels" and explode themselves in suicide attack. Common Denominators that Tell a Story The third terror attack in Jerusalem in 11 months claimed three Israel lives and left more than 70 people injured on July 2. Note the crushed car under the bulldozer! All three have several things in common: 1) Lone Palestinian suiciders perpetrated all three multiple murders by unconventional means. 2) All three carried Jerusalem resident's IDs with Israeli jobs and benefits. 3) And all three killing rampages were stopped by off-duty soldiers or security personnel. 4) They were all claimed by a group calling itself the Galilee Liberation Brigades which intelligence sources report is sponsored by the Lebanese Hizballah terror organization. Yet Israeli media has made nothing of this connection. DEBKAfile's counter-terror sources note that it was not by chance that Hizballah secretary Hassan Nasrallah gave a news conference in Beirut just hours after the Jerusalem attack. He confirmed that the prisoner exchange with Israel would go through in mid-July. Nasrallah was imitating the style of the Palestinian master-terrorist, the late Yasser Arafat, who routinely followed "diplomatic" statements with major terrorist attacks, to demonstrate to his fellow Arabs and Muslims that actions spoke louder than words. The bulldozer which careered down a Jerusalem thoroughfare, leaving in its wake crushed bodies and vehicles, bore Hizballah's hallmarks. Nasrallah had warned that the death of the Lebanese group's military commander, Imad Mughniyeh in Damascus last February, would be avenged by unconventional means that would shock Israelis. This was the first time in terrorist history that a bulldozer was used as an instrument of death. It portends more of the same: unpredictable atrocities that require no explosives or bombs, a nightmare scenario hanging over the lives of ordinary people, for which no preventive measures have been devised. In August 2007, the first of the three attacks claimed by the Galilee Liberation Brigades in Jerusalem was carried out by a local gunman from Kfar Mande in the old City of Jerusalem. He murdered a security guard, only to be killed by his victim's partner. On March 7, another Jerusalem Palestinian from Jebal Mukabar, carried out the massacre of eight youths in the Mercaz Harav yeshiva. He was finally killed by an off-duty army officer who was a next-door neighbor. The claim of responsibility by the Galilee Liberation Brigades was broadcast by Hizballah's Al Manar TV station in Lebanon. Then too, Israeli officials went to considerable pains to disassociate the attack from any organized terrorist group. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/d641ea10/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 04:00:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 05:00:22 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Chukat: On the verge of the Land Message-ID: Chukat: On the Verge of the Land 30 Sivan 5768, 03 July 08 05:00 by Daniel Pinner (IsraelNN.com) "The Children of Israel - the whole community - came to the Zin Desert in the first month, and the nation dwelt there in Kadesh." (Numbers 20:1) In the previous chapter, God commanded us the statute of the red heifer, concluding the (approximately) one-and-a-third-year period starting from the Exodus. This chapter picks up the story almost thirty-eight years later, with the nation arriving in the Zin Desert, east of the River Jordan, precisely one year before entering the Land of Israel. We arrived in the Zin Desert on the 10th of Nissan (Targum Yonatan to Numbers 20:1) and entered Israel on the 10th of Nissan a year later (Joshua 4:19). Now begins the final approach to independence in our Land. Rashi explains the words kol ha-eidah ("the whole community") to mean eidah ha-shleimah ("the community in its entirety" or "the perfect community"), because all those who were destined to die in the desert had already died and these were the ones who had been designated for life. The Siftei Hakhamim (Rabbi Shabbetai ben Yosef Bass, 1641-1718) elucidates Rashi?s comment: "Rashi is explaining [an apparent redundancy in the text]. Since it says 'the Children of Israel,' it is obvious that this means the whole community. So he explains this to mean that those destined to die in the desert had already died." The Ibn Ezra, a generation after Rashi, has a similar understanding: "There is no mention in the Torah of any event or prophecy, apart from the first year and the fortieth year. And the reason that 'the Children of Israel - the whole community - came' is that the generation of the desert had died, and now those who would reach the land of Canaan came." And the Ohr HaChayyim (Rabbi Chayyim ben Attar, Morocco and Israel, 1696-1743) follows the same understanding: "It is important to realise why the Torah had to say 'the whole community', and why the term 'the Children of Israel' was not enough; the simple understanding is that 'the Children of Israel' are the whole community. Indeed, as we have seen previously, when Israel is on the level of straight and righteous, they are called 'the Children of Israel'; when they do not reach this desired level they are called 'the nation,' as when He said, 'Until when will this nation provoke Me?' (Numbers 14:11) ....Here, the Torah informs us that the whole community are categorised as 'the Children of Israel'." Thirty-seven years and eight months previously - in our reading, two parashiot ago - the twelve spies had returned from Israel, delivered their evil report, seduced the nation into rebellion against God?s scheme and condemned the generation to die in the desert. Now, that generation had passed away and those who remained were those who would inherit the Land of Israel. Ibn Ezra?s comment that "there is no mention in the Torah of any event or prophecy, apart from the first year and the fortieth year" is very revealing: nothing of that generation remained; they did nothing and left nothing of lasting value. They were not even considered part of "the whole community". The generation that had spurned the Land of Israel, though they had heard the Ten Commandments from God Himself and the rest of the Torah from Moshe, were discarded. The new generation, those who were indeed worthy of independence in their own Land, were "the whole community". This new generation was worthy of entering and inheriting the Land of Israel. Perhaps the clearest indication of their worthiness was their response to an armed attack by an enemy nation. Two enemies had attacked Israel upon leaving Egypt - Egypt (Exodus 14:5-23) and Amalek (17:8-16). The first was the Egyptian army: "Pharaoh was approaching and the Children of Israel raised their eyes, and behold! Egypt was journeying after them. And they were very frightened and the Children of Israel shouted out to HaShem." (Exodus 14:10) The Ibn Ezra comments: "It is amazing that such a huge camp of 600,000 men should be frightened of their pursuers. Why did they not fight for their lives and for their children? The answer is that the Egyptians had been Israel?s lords, and this generation that left Egypt had been trained from childhood to bear the Egyptian yoke and they had a humiliated spirit. So how could they now fight against their lords? And Israel were weakened and untrained in warfare. After all, you will see that Amalek came with a small nation, yet had it not been for Moshe?s prayer, he [Amalek] would have overpowered Israel. So HaShem, Who alone 'performs great deeds' (Job 5:9), arranged matters such that all the males of the nation that left Egypt would die: they would not have the strength to fight the Canaanites until a new generation - the generation of the desert, which had not experienced exile - would arise, who would have an exalted spirit." (Ibn Ezra's commentary to Exodus 14:13) Now, a generation later, the Israelite response to a military attack was totally different: "The Canaanite king of Arad, who dwelt in the Negev, heard that Israel was approaching by the route of the spies. And he fought against Israel and he captured a captive from it." (21:1) He captured only one captive, a slave woman (Rashi, ad loc; Yalkut Shimoni 764), "and he killed no one." (Sforno) This time around, the nation had no fear of fighting and they stood solidly behind Moshe in his response. He did not flee from this enemy king, neither did he attempt to make peace with him; he did not negotiate for the return of this captive, nor did he organise a brief foray into his territory with the intention of withdrawing as soon as possible; nor even did he call on an outside force to help settle their differences. Rather, he led Israel in battle to defeat this king, annihilated his city, and renamed it Hormah ("utter destruction") to eternalise the lesson of how the Jewish nation responds to a Jew being taken captive by an enemy army. There would still be several stumbles in the final year before entering Israel: the people would complain of the insubstantial food, and God would send snakes to kill them (21:5-6); the daughters of Moab would seduce the men, and 24,000 would die (25:1-9). But the nation would no longer be frightened of fighting against enemies for its Land and its freedom. When Sihon, the Amorite king, attacked them, they not merely defended themselves, they captured and possessed his land, from Arnon to Jabbok to the border of the Ammonites (21:23-26). This was the appropriate response of a generation that had left the humiliations of exile behind it, who were worthy of inheriting their Land. This is the paradigm for our generation of redemption - the generation that has entered its Land and is now on the final approach to the final Redemption. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/1a2b3042/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Jul 3 06:02:38 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 07:02:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Message-ID: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic : ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel , in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah .[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem , but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak . Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London , New York City, and other parts of New York , with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/fe48e19e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:01:53 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:01:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Thank you so much for this, Marvin. I could not have said it nearly so well. I'm surprised that the Rabbi you asked did not answer you with what I believe is a very well-known Rabbinic teaching. It says something to the effect, "If you know someone is trying to kill you, you should act first and stop him, because it is better for the world that a good (just) man lives." I do not believe that this teaching sanctions aggression, but rather self defense. While I believe that we should do good even to our enemies, and not exult at their death/downfall, it does not follow that we should line up to be slaughtered by them. That would not be a Torah-based response. I also believe that your idea of taking land for every act of aggression is a just answer to aggression, and the Israelis do so to an extent, in that they destroy the homes of terrorists. However, if the Israelis took all the land from their persecutors, G-d would HAVE TO come to their defense, because the nations would turn on them like ravening wolves. Avigail/Pat From: mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:02 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/307fa55d/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 09:03:17 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:03:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <040101c8dd15$8c92ecf0$a5b8c6d0$@com> Hi Hanoch, I agree that the terrorist Muslims need to be removed, but I am not sure that this is our job. Yeshua was also a victim of terrorism and he chose to love his enemies and offered no resistance. In doing so, he kept the Torah FULLY, even upon pain of death. I believe that as the Children of YHWH, THIS is our job - and in doing so we invite YHWH Kavod to return. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Patty - Interesting reaction, but perhapes you didn't read the reports of what this horrific creature did (please see below). You chose to quote Yeshua...but I'm left thinking of a saying from the Judaic tradition - "He who is merciful to the cruel is destined to be cruel to the merciful..." (it's 4:30am, I'll write the source in later). Please note the part about the baby....and YES, he should have been killed sooner - and he should NEVER have been an 'Israeli citizen.' He would have harmed far less...Israel is NOT a John Lennon song, it's not a matter of 'give peace a chance.' Jews are dying....and will continue to, until the muslim occupiers are removed from the Land of Israel.... Hanoch Jerusalem Victims Identified Hundreds of relatives and friends attended the funeral of Elizabeth (Lili) Goren-Friedman who was killed in the deadly terrorist attack in Jerusalem. Goren-Friedman, 54, was laid to rest at the Har HaMenuchot cemetery at Givat Shaul. Elizabeth, a resident of Jerusalem, was killed when the massive bulldozer operated by the terrorist crushed her to death. She was a teacher at a school for the blind in the city. "Lili was a veteran teacher, in charge of the syllabus, an educator and at one point the vice principal," Principal Rachel Sakrovish told reporters. "It is hard to talk about Lili in the past tense, she's an amazing person. There wasn't a student that Lily didn't help advance on a personal, educational and rehabilitative level. We knew that if a student was falling behind and struggling, Lili would work tirelessly to help them." Elizabeth is survived by three children - Zvi, 23, Issachar, 19 and Yael, 16. **************************************************************************** ********** The second name cleared for publication is that of Bat Sheva Unterman, 33. Also from Jerusalem, her five-month-old daughter Efrat was with her when she too was crushed to death. In her last moments she was able to unclasp the belt of her daughter's chair, saving her life. Amazingly, the infant was extracted from the crumpled car by paramedics, completely unharmed. Unterman's family knew she was in the area of the attack as she had taken Efrat to the HMO. They tried contacting her, but to no avail. "This is a quiet, modest family. We prefer not going into details about this. We will honor her in a personal manner," said a relative. Unterman, who taught at a pre-school, is survived by her husband and three daughters. **************************************************************************** ************ Jean Relevy, 68, of the Jerusalem neighborhood of Gilo, was about to become a first-time grandfather in about a month. He was hit by the raging bulldozer while driving his car as part of his daily work routine. He installed air conditioners for a living. He is survived by his wife, two daughters and a son. According to his nephew, Nati Avner, "he was one of the most special people I knew, always thinking about others. The family was his happiness, and he was always looking for a platform to help people." Relevy was the youngest child in a family of seven children. His mother died several months after his birth, and he was raised at his sister's home. He immigrated to Israel from Iran with his father in 1949, after the family had spent nine years in India. Saving the Babies saved baby The heart-wrenching story of five-month-old Efrat Onterman, left motherless after the murderous terror attack on Wednesday in Jerusalem, has swept the nation. Her mother Batsheva Unterman was crushed to death right next to her during the terrorist's tractor rampage, and it is nothing short of miraculous that the baby was untouched. Batsheva was laid to rest last night at the Har Hamenuchot Cemetery in Jerusalem. Eyal Zehavi, a Magen David Adom paramedic who rushed to the scene with his wife treated both Efrat and another infant, seven months old. "Someone passed the baby to me and screamed, "I just saved her from the car in which her mother was killed," said Zehavi. "It took me a minute and a half to check her, I did an extensive examination of her body, looked for broken bones, wounds and breathing difficulties but thankfully she was fine and I transferred her to the ambulance which took her to the Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem." Zehavi and his wife, who is seven months pregnant and also in the medical field, helped move the body of the baby girl's mother so it could be evacuated. Moments later Zehavi had a second baby to treat, seven month old Ophir Sinai, who had been with her mother, Shani, on one of the buses hit by the bulldozer. Shani told reporters, "My daughter was sitting in her carriage when suddenly I saw people running towards the bus. At first I thought they wanted to look in and then I saw a tractor coming our way from the other side. We were sitting on the side that turned over on the sidewalk and people fell on us. My daughter was crushed and glass was flying all around us. "We got out through the bus' windshield. Two people came our way to help, one of them was bandaged and I asked him, you, in your state, you are helping me? I didn't even have a chance to thank him." An off-duty soldier took the gun from an elite policeman at the scene and shot the terrorist dead. In a bizarre coincidence, the soldier, Moshe Klessner, 18, is the brother-in-law of IDF officer David Shapira, who killed the terrorist in the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva attack, Channel 2 reported. Witnesses reported that the terrorist shouted "Allahu Akbar" as he crushed vehicles and people with the tractor. This is the Islamic chant shouted by terrorists before they kill the "infidels" and explode themselves in suicide attack. Common Denominators that Tell a Story The third terror attack in Jerusalem in 11 months claimed three Israel lives and left more than 70 people injured on July 2. Note the crushed car under the bulldozer! All three have several things in common: 1) Lone Palestinian suiciders perpetrated all three multiple murders by unconventional means. 2) All three carried Jerusalem resident's IDs with Israeli jobs and benefits. 3) And all three killing rampages were stopped by off-duty soldiers or security personnel. 4) They were all claimed by a group calling itself the Galilee Liberation Brigades which intelligence sources report is sponsored by the Lebanese Hizballah terror organization. Yet Israeli media has made nothing of this connection. DEBKAfile's counter-terror sources note that it was not by chance that Hizballah secretary Hassan Nasrallah gave a news conference in Beirut just hours after the Jerusalem attack. He confirmed that the prisoner exchange with Israel would go through in mid-July. Nasrallah was imitating the style of the Palestinian master-terrorist, the late Yasser Arafat, who routinely followed "diplomatic" statements with major terrorist attacks, to demonstrate to his fellow Arabs and Muslims that actions spoke louder than words. The bulldozer which careered down a Jerusalem thoroughfare, leaving in its wake crushed bodies and vehicles, bore Hizballah's hallmarks. Nasrallah had warned that the death of the Lebanese group's military commander, Imad Mughniyeh in Damascus last February, would be avenged by unconventional means that would shock Israelis. This was the first time in terrorist history that a bulldozer was used as an instrument of death. It portends more of the same: unpredictable atrocities that require no explosives or bombs, a nightmare scenario hanging over the lives of ordinary people, for which no preventive measures have been devised. In August 2007, the first of the three attacks claimed by the Galilee Liberation Brigades in Jerusalem was carried out by a local gunman from Kfar Mande in the old City of Jerusalem. He murdered a security guard, only to be killed by his victim's partner. On March 7, another Jerusalem Palestinian from Jebal Mukabar, carried out the massacre of eight youths in the Mercaz Harav yeshiva. He was finally killed by an off-duty army officer who was a next-door neighbor. The claim of responsibility by the Galilee Liberation Brigades was broadcast by Hizballah's Al Manar TV station in Lebanon. Then too, Israeli officials went to considerable pains to disassociate the attack from any organized terrorist group. _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/ec65f08c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 3 09:29:22 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:29:22 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <070320081429.3575.486CE241000F3B5400000DF722228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Think it's important that we keep Yeshua's mission in perspective. (this is my own understanding) First, by his own admission, Yeshua's mission was to the children of Israel. (Matt 15:24) Second, his mission was to lead them back to the heart of Torah (Matt 5, Luke 6) He lived during a time of occupation of Israel, there was no real national government at that time. While Yeshua taught mercy and forbearance (to love one's enemy) he also taught that there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for a friend (John 15:13). He also fully acknowledged that there would be wars and rumors of war (Matt 24:6, Mark 13:7). The sum of this perspective is this (in my mind); on an individual and national level it is not good to focus on revenge and hatred but rather mercy and justice toward our enemies. That does not mean that we should give up our responsibility to protect those whom G-d had placed in our charge. G-d says that vengance is His and there is good reason for that, He is the judge of all the nations. Therefore a nation or an individual that goes to war in righteousness and not out of revenge will have G-d go before them and will be victorious. The nation that goes out to war in revenge, goes out to conquer and therefore goes out alone. They may win the battle but they will eventually fall. I have heard many stories of this teaching being put into practice by the IDF as the battle rages on. But it not so regarding the terrorists. I think Yeshua would teach that we should all be obediant and courageous in protecting that which G-d has given us, for Yisrael it is the Land and it's people. But at the same time we should leave vengance to G-d. Anger and hatred, while justified, leads to folly. I think David spoke often of this in the Psalms. It is also a prevalent theme throughout the Proverbs. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "mhyde" : -------------- Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/714ab676/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 09:37:55 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:37:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> Hi Pat, I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic : ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel , in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah .[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem , but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London , New York City, and other parts of New York , with smaller communities in various cities around North America . This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/ca223028/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 09:47:11 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:47:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!? Message-ID: <8CAAB32CF51C546-1398-30C@WEBMAIL-MC21.sysops.aol.com> Hi Patty, ???? In your note you implied that because Yeshua loved his enemies, that as children of HaShem (G-d), that is what he expects of us.? Firstly, you are basing your point on your belief that Yeshua fulfilled the Torah, "Fully" - which I would like to point out is your belief, and not a 'given' that every child of HaShem accepts (including me).? But I'm straying from my point.? No where in the Torah will you find the command/directive to "love your enemies."? We Jews do NOT love Nazis....and I don't believe Yeshua would have either; but that's just my?belief. ???? Yes, there is the principle of "loving your neighbor," but it would NEVER apply to terrorist murderers.? I was a little surprised that you described my reaction as 'gloating' - the terrorist scum DESERVED TO DIE, and I was sharing footage of the brave off-duty soldier (blue shirt and tzitzit) who got a weapon (from someone else), climbed on the tractor-of-death, and shot the murderer.? He is a hero, in the mode of King David, who killed Goliath.? In an amazing irony, his brother-in-law was one of the two (also off-duty soldiers)?who shot and killed the terrorist who had slaughtered those boys in the Mercaz Yeshiva in March....you?don't love terrorists, you kill them..... ??? "And you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you...But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall come to pass that those which you let remain of them, shall be thorns in your eyes and thistles in your sides and shall torment you in the land wherein you dwell.? And it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them."? Bamidbar (Numbers) 33:52-56 ??? We didn't, and we pay the price every single day... ?????????????????????? Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/e81c4aef/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 10:03:05 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:03:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Editorial from the Jerusalem Post Message-ID: <8CAAB3508123DF6-1398-45D@WEBMAIL-MC21.sysops.aol.com> Terror in Jerusalem July 3, 2008 Editorial, THE JERUSALEM POST It would be easier to come to terms with what happened in Jerusalem on Wednesday if we could convince ourselves that Jabr Duwait had simply gone berserk when he ploughed murderously into pedestrians, cars and buses. If only a forensic psychiatrist could certify that the 30-year-old bulldozer operator had suffered a psychotic episode that impelled him, perched on that mammoth machine, to rampage through one of the city?s most congested thoroughfares killing and wounding as many innocents as he could. We might shake our heads in dismay, but tell ourselves that there can be no ultimate protection from a madman. But the havoc wrought on Jaffa Road was in all likelihood not the work of a madman; to convince ourselves otherwise would be delusional. Eyewitnesses described a scene of mayhem. Duwait began his onslaught from a construction site on nearby Sharei Yisrael Street, ramming a city bus and wounding people along the way before turning into Jaffa Road -- which was even more congested than usual because of infrastructure work on the light railway. As pedestrians scattered to avoid being crushed by the giant vehicle, the killer drove in the direction of the Mahaneh Yehuda outdoor market, viciously smashing into a second city bus, knocking it over. He smashed and crushed several other vehicles in his path. Three people were killed and scores wounded, before an off-duty soldier and a specially-trained motorcycle policeman managed to climb aboard the bulldozer and, as Duwait cried "Allahu Akbar" (God is great), shot him dead. JUST HOURS after the killing spree, the overturned bus had been set upright and towed away. The bulldozer, too, was removed, as were the crushed cars. Volunteers washed the blood of the victims from the street. Jaffa Road, and the adjoining Central Bus Station vicinity, resumed their normal appearance. But the people of Jerusalem have been badly traumatized. There is a gnawing sense that the tranquility residents have enjoyed for some years now, since the unofficial end of the second Intifada, may be over -- and that the biggest danger emanates from within the boundaries of the city itself. Duwait was a resident of Sur Baher, a Palestinian Arab village located near Kibbutz Ramat Rahel in southeast Jerusalem, and inside the security barrier. Being a resident of metropolitan Jerusalem, as opposed to the West Bank, Duwait held a blue ID card similar to the one carried by all Israeli citizens. Wednesday?s outrage recalls the attack just two months ago inside the study hall of the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in which another Jerusalem Arab, Ala Abu Dhaim from Jebl Mukaber, murdered eight students before being shot dead by an off-duty IDF officer (who, by a surreal coincidence, is the brother-in-law of the man who shot Duwait). WITH SEVERAL notable exceptions, Jerusalem Arabs tended to avoid being drawn into the second intifada. But in recent months a number of incidents, including the near-lynching of two municipal inspectors on Salah-a-Din Street and an attempt to murder two security guards in the Old City, have spotlighted what appears to be a trend toward radicalization. The capital's Arab population gave their support to Hamas in the 2006 Palestinian elections. The Arab neighborhoods that dot metropolitan Jerusalem -- not just east, but north and south as well -- were absorbed into the capital?s boundaries after the 1967 Six Day War and its Arab residents issued blue ID cards. Eligible to apply for full Israeli citizenship, they overwhelmingly chose not to do so, in solidarity with the Palestinian cause. The dichotomy under which these Arabs live seems to be growing ever more strained. They may work for Jews; they may receive health and social benefits from the Zionist state, but culturally and politically they are inseparable from the surrounding Arab milieu. They watch the same satellite TV stations and hear preachers espousing the same radical messages as their compatriots in the West Bank and Gaza. We must, at the very least, acknowledge that this framework -- the relationship between Jerusalem's Arabs and Jews, and its security ramifications -- which has applied since 1967 needs reevaluation. To do otherwise would leave us in denial. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/37128b21/attachment.html From levi at leviyisrael.com Thu Jul 3 10:08:56 2008 From: levi at leviyisrael.com (Levi Yisrael) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:08:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!? In-Reply-To: <8CAAB32CF51C546-1398-30C@WEBMAIL-MC21.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAAB32CF51C546-1398-30C@WEBMAIL-MC21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9B95821A-1ADD-4D25-9090-53171FC479F1@leviyisrael.com> Right Hanoch, Love you neighbor but maybe not to the point of as your neighbor is beginning to shoot you, you would not defend yourself. If the enemy comes after me or my family I will defend. Levi Yisrael On Jul 3, 2008, at 9:47 AM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hi Patty, > > In your note you implied that because Yeshua loved his > enemies, that as children of HaShem (G-d), that is what he expects > of us. Firstly, you are basing your point on your belief that > Yeshua fulfilled the Torah, "Fully" - which I would like to point > out is your belief, and not a 'given' that every child of HaShem > accepts (including me). But I'm straying from my point. No where > in the Torah will you find the command/directive to "love your > enemies." We Jews do NOT love Nazis....and I don't believe Yeshua > would have either; but that's just my belief. > > Yes, there is the principle of "loving your neighbor," but it > would NEVER apply to terrorist murderers. I was a little surprised > that you described my reaction as 'gloating' - the terrorist scum > DESERVED TO DIE, and I was sharing footage of the brave off-duty > soldier (blue shirt and tzitzit) who got a weapon (from someone > else), climbed on the tractor-of-death, and shot the murderer. He > is a hero, in the mode of King David, who killed Goliath. In an > amazing irony, his brother-in-law was one of the two (also off-duty > soldiers) who shot and killed the terrorist who had slaughtered > those boys in the Mercaz Yeshiva in March....you don't love > terrorists, you kill them..... > > "And you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from > before you...But if you will not drive out the inhabitants of the > land from before you, then it shall come to pass that those which > you let remain of them, shall be thorns in your eyes and thistles > in your sides and shall torment you in the land wherein you dwell. > And it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them." > Bamidbar (Numbers) 33:52-56 > > We didn't, and we pay the price every single day... > > Hanoch > The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/22a56e6c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 10:39:42 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:39:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> References: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> Message-ID: "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me: for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold: therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me. And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.." Isaiah 63:1 It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled Israel's enemies looked for those who would fight with him and was astonished that none were found. Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered. If we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it must be measured by Torah. If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty. It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter. This is a very important issue. B'Ahava, Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Pat, I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/06109a51/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 11:18:58 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 12:18:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: References: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> Message-ID: <045e01c8dd28$8129f4e0$837ddea0$@com> Hi Avigail, Thank you for discussing! I would like to ask, was peace achieved then? Has it been achieved now? In Gan Eden when YHWH dwelt on earth, there was peace. Because of freewill, mankind abandoned Gan Eden, choosing to follow their own ways instead of the ways of the Creator. They asked for an earthly king and got one, along with all of the corruption and wars that go along with earthly kingship. This is still going on today. The definition of insanity: stop doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. There was this Jew named Yeshua, who understood this. He strove to teach a higher level of Torah and usher in the Jeremiah Covenant and the return of YHWH. This higher level of Torah is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of this teaching is about killing- that not only is it wrong to physically kill, but it is wrong to hate from the heart. And adultery ? not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, but it is wrong to lust after a married person from the heart. So you see how he raised the Torah Bar. He brought the peace, but it was rejected and he was killed. In his effort to follow this higher level of Torah, he loved his enemies to the end. With every promised Covenant, I believe there have been righteous people, pioneers, that have acted on the behalf of Israel and sought to bring these promises to light. Yeshua was one of those people. We can be one of those people. In the return to Gan Eden, when YHWH once again dwells with His people on earth, there will once again be peace. This will not be achieved by the violence of men, but rather by the Return to YHWH and His Commandments, and His Return to us. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me: for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold: therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me. And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.." Isaiah 63:1 It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled Israel's enemies looked for those who would fight with him and was astonished that none were found. Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered. If we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it must be measured by Torah. If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty. It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter. This is a very important issue. B'Ahava, Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Pat, I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic : ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel , in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah .[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem , but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London , New York City, and other parts of New York , with smaller communities in various cities around North America . This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/1994b9eb/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 3 12:22:44 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths Blog and Emunah Paths Podcasts: Mass Murder by a Father of Two In-Reply-To: <486BFA6D.20709@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <206944.75027.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you Joe. HaShem is our defense, and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Let the earth rejoice! Our G-d reigns! HalleluYAH! Blessings, Linda/Hadassah JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Hanoch, This whole episode including the Yeshiva killings last March in Yerushalayim seems like a bad dream. However, the reality is that more innocent Jewish people are now dead. May our prayers be with the families and loved ones of the brutally slain. What makes both incidences appalling is the underlying issue that both cold blood murders were Yisraeli Arabs that were working for Jewish companies. These men loved death more than life and their own families. They chose methods that would create the most extreme psychological effect on the Jewish society. The Yisraeli Supreme Court ruling in it's mad pursuit to be politically correct is as much to blame for this carnage. However one must wonder whether the Jewish companies are seeking to maximize their profits through the cheap labour supplied by the Arabs. Are the lives of innocent people less important than material profits.... chas v'shalom ? Meanwhile the West which is also to blame for manufacturing this whole nightmare rings it's hands. Why are we so surprised ? Would we expect anything less ? And yet we continue down this spiraling road map to death and destruction. The leaders of the West seem hell bent on pursuing this madness. Hanoch, my Achi, you are in your rights to be extremely upset with this wanton waste of Jewish life. I too stand with you and the national grieving of the people of Yisrael. I have no answers , only condolences for those affected by these tragedies. I do have firm bitachon and emunah in HaShem. As the Tehelim says : Psalms Chapter 2 ? ??????, ???????? ??????; ???????????, ????????-????. 1 Why are the nations in an uproar? And why do the peoples mutter in vain? ? ????????????, ???????-?????-- ??????????? ????????-?????: ???-??????, ?????-?????????. 2 The kings of the earth stand up, and the rulers take counsel together, {N} against the LORD, and against His anointed: ? ??????????, ???-??????????????; ????????????? ????????? ??????????. 3 'Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.' ? ??????? ???????????? ????????: ???????, ???????-?????. 4 He that sitteth in heaven laugheth, the Lord hath them in derision. ? ??? ???????? ???????? ????????; ???????????? ???????????. 5 Then will He speak unto them in His wrath, and affright them in His sore displeasure: ? ???????, ?????????? ????????: ???-???????, ???-????????. 6 'Truly it is I that have established My king upon Zion, My holy mountain.' ? ??????????, ???-???: ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ??????--?????, ??????? ????????????. 7 I will tell of the decree: the LORD said unto me: 'Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee. ? ?????? ?????????--?????????? ??????, ??????????; ?????????????, ???????-?????. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give the nations for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession. ? ????????, ????????? ????????: ???????? ?????? ???????????. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.' ? ????????, ???????? ????????????; ??????????, ???????? ?????. 10 Now therefore, O ye kings, be wise; be admonished, ye judges of the earth. ?? ??????? ???-?????? ??????????; ????????, ??????????. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. ?? ?????????-???, ????-??????? ?????????? ??????-- ????-??????? ???????? ??????: ????????, ????-?????? ???. 12 Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. {N} Happy are all they that take refuge in Him. {P} We can only understand that HaShem is in control. Why ? HaShem knows ! Let us bow down to his Omnipotence. Selah. Your Achi Joe. http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/2008/07/mass-murder-by-father-of-two.html _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/bed51416/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 13:02:36 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <045e01c8dd28$8129f4e0$837ddea0$@com> Message-ID: <60982.58274.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Y'all, ? #1) There is a time to protect, to fight and kill the wicked. That is a holy thing. #2) There is a time to surrender as in?Jeremiah's time. That is a holy thing. #3) There is a time to fulfill a higher personal purpose?and die for your testimony as did?Yeshua.?That is a holy thing. ? The question is one of timing and calling - nationally?and/or individually. There must be a proper blend of obeying "My Voice...My Charge...My Commandments...My Statutes...and My Laws." Bereshit 26:5 ? At this time, nationally speaking, it is the time for #1. ? The Sermon on the Mount was spoken in a time of Roman Occupation and rather than following the trek of the Zealots, which trek did eventually led to the Judea's demise and further exile, Yeshua called for a particular strategy for "that generation" of turning the cheek. ? Love & Prayers, Tracy ? ? ? --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:18 AM Hi Avigail, ? Thank you for discussing! I would like to ask, was peace achieved then? Has it been achieved now? ?In Gan Eden when YHWH dwelt on earth, there was peace. Because of freewill, mankind abandoned Gan Eden, choosing to follow their own ways instead of the ways of the Creator. They asked for an earthly king and got one, along with all of the corruption and wars that go along with earthly kingship. This is still going on today. The definition of insanity: stop doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. ? There was this Jew named Yeshua, who understood this. He strove to teach a higher level of Torah and usher in the Jeremiah Covenant and the return of YHWH. This higher level of Torah is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of this teaching is about killing- that not only is it wrong to physically kill, but it is wrong to hate from the heart. And adultery ? not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, but it is wrong to lust after a married person from the heart. So you see how he raised the Torah Bar. He brought the peace, but it was rejected and he was killed. In his effort to follow this higher level of Torah, he loved his enemies to the end. ? With every promised Covenant, I believe there have been righteous people, pioneers, that have acted on the behalf of Israel and sought to bring these promises to light. Yeshua was one of those people. We can be one of those people. ?In the return to Gan Eden, when YHWH once again dwells with His people on earth, there will once again be peace. This will not be achieved by the violence of men, but rather by the Return to YHWH and His Commandments, and His Return to us. ? Love & Blessings, Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra?? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength?? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.? Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress?? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me:? for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment.? For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.? And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold:? therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me.? And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.."? Isaiah 63:1 ? It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled?Israel's enemies?looked for?those who would fight?with him and was astonished that none were found. ? Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered.? ? If?we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it?must be measured by Torah.? If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." ? I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty.? It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter.? This is a very important issue. ? B'Ahava, ? Avigail/Pat? ? From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? Hi Pat, ? I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: ? And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 ? ?And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 ? They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 ? Blessings, Patty ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels.? I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life.? It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it.?? But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different.? I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response.? This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit,? how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. ?Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I.?? The follow quote is from Wekiepedia.? Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? ? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table,? lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die.?? I did not get a satisfactory? answer. ? I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors.? If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land.? If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other.? Just think,? every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact.? ? I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. ? ______________________________________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/7ab69fe3/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 13:10:39 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 14:10:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <60982.58274.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <045e01c8dd28$8129f4e0$837ddea0$@com> <60982.58274.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04ef01c8dd38$1c1367c0$543a3740$@com> Hi, then I will pray for YHWH to be with you and protect you. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Shalom Y'all, #1) There is a time to protect, to fight and kill the wicked. That is a holy thing. #2) There is a time to surrender as in Jeremiah's time. That is a holy thing. #3) There is a time to fulfill a higher personal purpose and die for your testimony as did Yeshua. That is a holy thing. The question is one of timing and calling - nationally and/or individually. There must be a proper blend of obeying "My Voice...My Charge...My Commandments...My Statutes...and My Laws." Bereshit 26:5 At this time, nationally speaking, it is the time for #1. The Sermon on the Mount was spoken in a time of Roman Occupation and rather than following the trek of the Zealots, which trek did eventually led to the Judea's demise and further exile, Yeshua called for a particular strategy for "that generation" of turning the cheek. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:18 AM Hi Avigail, Thank you for discussing! I would like to ask, was peace achieved then? Has it been achieved now? In Gan Eden when YHWH dwelt on earth, there was peace. Because of freewill, mankind abandoned Gan Eden, choosing to follow their own ways instead of the ways of the Creator. They asked for an earthly king and got one, along with all of the corruption and wars that go along with earthly kingship. This is still going on today. The definition of insanity: stop doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. There was this Jew named Yeshua, who understood this. He strove to teach a higher level of Torah and usher in the Jeremiah Covenant and the return of YHWH. This higher level of Torah is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of this teaching is about killing- that not only is it wrong to physically kill, but it is wrong to hate from the heart. And adultery ? not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, but it is wrong to lust after a married person from the heart. So you see how he raised the Torah Bar. He brought the peace, but it was rejected and he was killed. In his effort to follow this higher level of Torah, he loved his enemies to the end. With every promised Covenant, I believe there have been righteous people, pioneers, that have acted on the behalf of Israel and sought to bring these promises to light. Yeshua was one of those people. We can be one of those people. In the return to Gan Eden, when YHWH once again dwells with His people on earth, there will once again be peace. This will not be achieved by the violence of men, but rather by the Return to YHWH and His Commandments, and His Return to us. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me: for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold: therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me. And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.." Isaiah 63:1 It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled Israel's enemies looked for those who would fight with him and was astonished that none were found. Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered. If we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it must be measured by Torah. If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty. It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter. This is a very important issue. B'Ahava, Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Pat, I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta ( Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism [1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah. [2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/e5b67930/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 3 13:22:47 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <04ef01c8dd38$1c1367c0$543a3740$@com> Message-ID: <319223.7738.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Patty. In a war for survival, everyone plays an intricate role - and that role is essential !! ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 1:10 PM Hi, then I will pray for YHWH to be with you and protect you. ? Blessings, ? Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? Shalom Y'all, ? #1) There is a time to protect, to fight and kill the wicked. That is a holy thing. #2) There is a time to surrender as in?Jeremiah's time. That is a holy thing. #3) There is a time to fulfill a higher personal purpose?and die for your testimony as did?Yeshua.?That is a holy thing. ? The question is one of timing and calling - nationally?and/or individually. There must be a proper blend of obeying "My Voice...My Charge...My Commandments...My Statutes...and My Laws." Bereshit 26:5 ? At this time, nationally speaking, it is the time for #1. ? The Sermon on the Mount was spoken in a time of Roman Occupation and rather than following the trek of the Zealots, which trek did eventually led to the Judea's demise and further exile, Yeshua called for a particular strategy for "that generation" of turning the cheek. ? Love & Prayers, Tracy ? ? ? --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:18 AM Hi Avigail, ? Thank you for discussing! I would like to ask, was peace achieved then? Has it been achieved now? ?In Gan Eden when YHWH dwelt on earth, there was peace. Because of freewill, mankind abandoned Gan Eden, choosing to follow their own ways instead of the ways of the Creator. They asked for an earthly king and got one, along with all of the corruption and wars that go along with earthly kingship. This is still going on today. The definition of insanity: stop doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. ? There was this Jew named Yeshua, who understood this. He strove to teach a higher level of Torah and usher in the Jeremiah Covenant and the return of YHWH. This higher level of Torah is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of this teaching is about killing- that not only is it wrong to physically kill, but it is wrong to hate from the heart. And adultery ? not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, but it is wrong to lust after a married person from the heart. So you see how he raised the Torah Bar. He brought the peace, but it was rejected and he was killed. In his effort to follow this higher level of Torah, he loved his enemies to the end. ? With every promised Covenant, I believe there have been righteous people, pioneers, that have acted on the behalf of Israel and sought to bring these promises to light. Yeshua was one of those people. We can be one of those people. ?In the return to Gan Eden, when YHWH once again dwells with His people on earth, there will once again be peace. This will not be achieved by the violence of men, but rather by the Return to YHWH and His Commandments, and His Return to us. ? Love & Blessings, Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra?? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength?? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.? Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress?? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me:? for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment.? For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.? And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold:? therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me.? And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.."? Isaiah 63:1 ? It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled?Israel's enemies?looked for?those who would fight?with him and was astonished that none were found. ? Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered.? ? If?we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it?must be measured by Torah.? If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." ? I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty.? It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter.? This is a very important issue. ? B'Ahava, ? Avigail/Pat? ? From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? Hi Pat, ? I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: ? And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 ? ?And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 ? They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 ? Blessings, Patty ? ? ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist ? Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels.? I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life.? It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it.?? But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different.? I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response.? This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit,? how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. ?Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I.?? The follow quote is from Wekiepedia.? Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? ? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table,? lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die.?? I did not get a satisfactory? answer. ? I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors.? If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land.? If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other.? Just think,? every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact.? ? I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. ? ______________________________________________________________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/ce1e4f30/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 13:52:00 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 14:52:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist In-Reply-To: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> <045e01c8dd28$8129f4e0$837ddea0$@com> References: <002701c8dcfc$4fe6e360$0400a8c0@marvin> <041d01c8dd1a$63b0abb0$2b120310$@com> <045e01c8dd28$8129f4e0$837ddea0$@com> Message-ID: Patty, I believe that Yeshua was referring to the Ten Words which say in Hebrew, "do not murder," as opposed to "do not kill." There is a big difference. I agree that we are not to hate, which is a much higher level than murder. However, the need to repel evil is definitely not forbidden. ~ Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Avigail, Thank you for discussing! I would like to ask, was peace achieved then? Has it been achieved now? In Gan Eden when YHWH dwelt on earth, there was peace. Because of freewill, mankind abandoned Gan Eden, choosing to follow their own ways instead of the ways of the Creator. They asked for an earthly king and got one, along with all of the corruption and wars that go along with earthly kingship. This is still going on today. The definition of insanity: stop doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. There was this Jew named Yeshua, who understood this. He strove to teach a higher level of Torah and usher in the Jeremiah Covenant and the return of YHWH. This higher level of Torah is taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Part of this teaching is about killing- that not only is it wrong to physically kill, but it is wrong to hate from the heart. And adultery ? not only is it wrong to physically commit adultery, but it is wrong to lust after a married person from the heart. So you see how he raised the Torah Bar. He brought the peace, but it was rejected and he was killed. In his effort to follow this higher level of Torah, he loved his enemies to the end. With every promised Covenant, I believe there have been righteous people, pioneers, that have acted on the behalf of Israel and sought to bring these promises to light. Yeshua was one of those people. We can be one of those people. In the return to Gan Eden, when YHWH once again dwells with His people on earth, there will once again be peace. This will not be achieved by the violence of men, but rather by the Return to YHWH and His Commandments, and His Return to us. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist "Who is this that comes from Edom, with crimsoned garments from Bozra? this one that is glorious in his apparel, striding in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Why is thy apparel red, and thy garments like his that treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with me: for I have trodden them in my anger, and trampled them in my fury; and their blood was sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked and there was none to help, and I gazed astonished but there was none to uphold: therefore has my own arm brought salvation to me, and my fury, it has upheld me. And I trod down peoples in my anger, and made them drunk with my fury, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.." Isaiah 63:1 It seems in the above pasuk that this one who trampled Israel's enemies looked for those who would fight with him and was astonished that none were found. Although there will come a time of peace, it will be after the enemies of HaSHem have been conquered. If we follow a teaching, no matter how beloved it may be, it must be measured by Torah. If it contradicts what HaSHem has said, then we are either misunderstanding the teaching, or it has been "edited." I'm very happy that you are "jumping in" on this Patty. It is incumbent upon us to discover G-d's will in this matter. This is a very important issue. B'Ahava, Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hi Pat, I hope you don?t mind me jumping in here. What we have to remember is that even though Israel has miraculously and prophetically become a nation once again, it was founded by - and is still run by ? secular Jews. There has been no REAL peace in The Land. While it may be a necessary evil for these secular Jews to fight Muslims, I believe that we, as Children of the Most High, have a different job ? following and teaching the fulfilled Torah. I believe that our COLLECTIVE action in this way will invite YHWH?s return and the Covenant outlined in Hosea and Isaiah: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. Hosea 2 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea. Isaiah 11 Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great footage - killing the arab terrorist Hanoch, This senseless killing in Israel disturbs us all on many levels. I wonder if it has not gotten to he point that most of the world just looks at it as another ?fender bender? it?s no big deal. It?s just a way of life. It?s far from our peaceful world so we don?t think about it. But, if we who live peaceful life?s had to live in the situation those folks in Israel have to live I would think our view would be quite different. I too, also thought of the same sayings of Jesus and wondered how he would have reacted if his wife had been crushed by the dozer. Or maybe the young women who was killed and left a husband and three children was his sister or mother, what would have been his response. This creates a lot of tension in a man?s spirit, how to love God and love your fellow man when your fellow man is destroying you one piece at a time. Yes, it is easy to love your friends and those who are nice and pleasant to you, but how many times do I HAVE TO LET YOU SLAP MY FACE, STOMP MY TOE AND KILL MY DAUGHTERS BEFORE I LOOK TOWARD HEAVEN AND SAY, GOD, YOU WANT TO STOP THIS OR SHOULD I. The follow quote is from Wekiepedia. Neturei Karta (Aramaic: ????? ????, "Guardians of the City"), also self-identifying by the English name Jews United Against Zionism[1] is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, that opposes Zionism and calls for a dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.[2] [3] They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Beit Shemesh Bet (or B) near Jerusalem, and Bnei Brak. Most others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City, and other parts of New York, with smaller communities in various cities around North America. This group I don?t get??????? I presented a question to a Rabbi one time, Why can Israel not stand up, look the world in the eye, and say, there will be peace. God is own our side and he will fight for us or we will be destroyed, if we are destroyed we will destroy the entire world(earth) as our last act. Almost, like what Elijah did, put it on the table, lets have a show down. Let?s see who?s God is the True God, at the end of the exercise somebody is gonna die. I did not get a satisfactory answer. I think Israel response should be what is recorded in Numbers 21:21 and following, Israel should try to live in peace with it?s neighbors. If Israel?s neighbors will not live in peace with them then they should attack, push the enemy back and take their land. If every attack upon Israel was followed up by Israel taking some more land, things would be different, one way or the other. Just think, every rocket attack was pushed back by taking all the land between the point of launch and the point of impact. I don?t have an answer, it does grieve my heart, and I can?t understand why the Israeli government does not do more for their people. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/e633d96b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jul 3 20:16:16 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:16:16 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] Message-ID: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/0bbc2c27/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Levi Yisrael Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:08:56 -0500 Size: 10090 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/0bbc2c27/attachment.eml From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 21:29:47 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:29:47 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] In-Reply-To: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <05b201c8dd7d$d5960b90$80c222b0$@com> Hi Joe, Thank you for this most awesome post. You said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare.? I am wondering, according to Torah, a rebellious child or person caught in adultery is commanded to be stoned. What would you do if this situation arose in your family? Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] Shalom Chaverim, To love or not to love ? ...... That is the question. To die or not to die ?...........That is the question. To live or not to live ?..........That is the question. Yeshua loved .............. for what he believed in........... TORAH. Yeshua died................ for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua lived............... for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua was a Rabbi who lived his life in context to the Holy Torah. Whilst he had brief encounters with foreigners such as the Roman centurion, the Syro-Phoenician woman, the Samaritan woman, and Pontius Pilate, his students and audience were exclusively Jewish. The Tanakh was his exclusive reference point. With this in mind, let us always be wary of not taking his reasoning out of context. "To love your neighbour"......... did it mean the chap next door, the neighbouring nation, or did it mean your fellow Jew ? "To love your enemy "............. did it mean the invading army, the surrounding hostile nations, or did it mean your fellow Jew that did not agree with you, had grievance with you , or had wronged you ? "To live /die by the sword "..... did it mean to submit to unprovoked brutal wanton murder or did it mean to resolve your differences without vengeance ? His teachings are always related to the personal inter relationships between his Jewish brethren and their relationship with HaShem. In Judaism there is the concept of "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred. The Rabbis explain that this was the cause of the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I have a personal outlook at what might have happened during the days of Yeshua. Both Yeshua and his cousin Yochanin preached Teshuva / Repentance. The Malchut Shamayim / Kingdom of Heaven was being proclaimed and on offer. The people of Yisrael had a choice in their method of redemption / salvation. Yeshua and Barabbas were on trail during the Pesach festival. Barabbas was on trial for sedition against the Romans. He was most likely a Sicari or a zealot. His method was most likely an armed popular revolt. His foundation was historical based on the Maccabe revolt against the Greeks. The result was victorious and deserved consideration. Yeshua on the other hand preached a message of "not by might, not by power, but by my spirit, sayeth HaShem" His message was of Teshuva and the return to HaShem first. The return to Torah. Then and only then ,through Achdut or unity would the redemption come. "A house divided could not stand." Through Teshuva and Achdut the meek lamb would transform into the roaring Lion of Yehuda . HaShem would then be Adonai z'vaot or the Master of Legions / Armies. The enemy would then be vanquished . Unfortunately Sinat Chinam prevailed and lack of unity was the order of the day. The rest is history. The identical choice is being offered today. Teshuva and Achdut are again in the spotlight. Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare. Morality is the first casualty of war. And yet the Torah has explicit laws regarding the terms of engagement with reference to warfare. ?? ??????? ??????, ????? ???? ?????????? ????????????, ???-?????? ?????????, ?????? ????-???????????--?????? ??????????? ?????????, ????????? ??????? ??????????. 25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the peoples that are under the whole heaven, who, when they hear the report of thee, shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.' ?? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????, ???-??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ???????, ??????. 26 And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying: ?? ?????????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????????? ??????: ??? ??????, ?????? ??????????. 27 'Let me pass through thy land; I will go along by the highway, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. ?? ????? ????????? ?????????????? ????????????, ??????? ????????? ???????-??? ???????????; ???, ?????????? ?????????. 28 Thou shalt sell me food for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink; only let me pass through on my feet; ?? ????????? ??????-??? ?????? ??????, ???????????? ??????????, ??????????????, ???????????? ??????--??? ??????-???????, ???-???????????, ???-???????, ??????-?????? ?????????? ????? ?????. 29 as the children of Esau that dwell in Seir, and the Moabites that dwell in Ar, did unto me; until I shall pass over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us.' ? ????? ?????, ?????? ?????? ??????????, ???????????, ????: ????-???????? ?????? ????????? ???-??????, ???????? ???-???????, ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????. {?} 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. {S} ?? ????????? ??????, ?????, ????? ?????????? ???? ?????????, ???-?????? ?????-???????; ????? ????, ???????? ???-???????. 31 And the LORD said unto me: 'Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee; begin to possess his land.' ?? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ?????-??????, ????????????--???????. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. ?? ????????????? ?????? ??????????, ??????????; ??????? ????? ?????-??????, ?????-????-??????. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. ?? ??????????? ???-????-??????, ?????? ??????, ?????????? ???-????-???? ?????, ???????????? ????????: ??? ????????????, ???????. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every city, the men, and the women, and the little ones; we left none remaining; ?? ??? ??????????, ?????????? ?????, ???????? ????????, ?????? ?????????. 35 only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, with the spoil of the cities which we had taken. ?? ????????? ?????? ???-??????-????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????, ?????-??????????, ??? ??????? ???????, ?????? ???????? ?????????: ???-??????, ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????. 36 From Aroer, which is on the edge of the valley of Arnon, and from the city that is in the valley, even unto Gilead, there was not a city too high for us: the LORD our God delivered up all before us. ?? ??? ???-????? ??????-???????, ??? ?????????: ????-??? ????? ??????, ??????? ?????, ????? ??????-??????, ?????? ??????????. 37 Only to the land of the children of Ammon thou camest not near; all the side of the river Jabbok, and the cities of the hill-country, and wheresoever the LORD our God forbade us. Deu 2 v 25 - 37 When Yisrael unites and does national Teshuva as the prophets foretold ,then the writing is on the wall for all it's enemies. Our role is to support them and aid their national cause. It is not for us to moralize them . The west has many questions to answer regarding it's hypocrisies and double standards. We ask the Jew to love his enemies, turn the other cheek, to negotiate with terrorists, and to trade land for peace. We claim biblical conceitedness without truly understanding the HEBREW BIBLE. We only further the evil. And yet when attacked do we love our enemy ? do we negotiate with terrorists ? do we turn the other cheek? do we trade land for peace ? Do we defend our national sovereignties ? Do we fight the Axis of Evil ? It is very easy to moralize from the comfort of an armchair. I know that many of us have proper intentions. But we need to have the true understanding of war as filtered through the Tanakh. Remember that in the Tanakh and the NT the scriptures speak of the coming of Mashiach to be heralded by wars, even to the point of the nations waring against the Mashiach. All his enemies will be a footstool under his feet. I am including a photographic montage for us to ponder. How would we react if we were subjected to this day in and day out. I only want us to do some real soul searching over the Shabbat rest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cZ6hsA1ogg Shabbat Shalom Your Achi JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/a608b483/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 21:34:03 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:34:03 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some interesting thoughts about G-d Message-ID: SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001sxTHN2KNBWIFLWpHZua49gZQsM7cnx787wkYrlS9RadBO-e02HBaezrKgrH_Yli8PYGqOzY wbhCbhLlM6GGZWu7cTjR5MY25dMqJtRmhdaaL8L2PY8XvXA==) Living G-d's Life (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001sxTHN2KNBWLkij_JvyTbOuKLII0T_Nb41KylBQWyPzq_oa9mtHQWpGqwaNX7PSI0pChJ7pXpAZaaNR2914WR0gPYhisb_phWhxR6VfR39UzUQGAu5TT-OE-mp44j_vP Tcx6_818fFdNcOFVwY20y7wdJXHGz7F-f) Quite frankly, I don't believe in G-d. The word spelled G-O-D does nothing for me; in fact, it interferes with my true belief. I am not alone. Jews don't believe in G-d. Indeed, the word "G-d" is not found in the Torah or the rest of the Hebrew Bible. Moses never heard of G-d nor heard from G-d. The name in the Torah that has been translated as G- d or Lord is Adonai. The word Adonai means "Master." In Jewish law, whatever a servant owns actually belongs to his master; the servant has no possessions whatsoever. This law also governs our spirituality: G-d is our Master, and in essence we own nothing. For example, it is incorrect to say "my" life because it is really G-d's life. We do not own the life force within us. This is a difficult concept to accept for many people because it is not a concept-it is a self-evident experience. Consider this: If we are the master and owners of our lives, then we could stop our life and start it whenever we wanted. We could stop our heart beating and then start it again at will. So too, our thoughts are not really our own. If we were the masters of thinking, then we could stop thinking and start whenever we please. But we cannot; we are constantly thinking. The same goes with feeling; we are constantly feeling and cannot make ourselves stop. We can choose what to think, what to feel and what to do with our lives, but the actual act of thinking, feeling and living are G-d's powers that He shares with us. To take our life is to commit suicide. All we can do is humbly and gratefully receive the power of life that G-d, the Master of life, shares with us. Even our will is not our own. We did not invent will; we are not the source of will. We do not have the choice to have a will. What we do with our will-how we direct it and invest it-is our choice. What to choose is our choice, but the fact that we are able to choose is not our choice. Even our motor skills are not ours. We did not create the knowledge or the skills required to open our mouths. To open our mouths, we tap into a wisdom that is clearly not ours. Therefore, when I call to "Adonai" and want to feel His presence in my life I try to contemplate the miraculous mechanism of all my facial muscles and the wondrous ability to speak. I focus especially on the 17 muscles that mysteriously work with perfect coordination, shaping my lips to express every letter and syllable. Take a moment right now to simply open and close your mouth. Who taught you how to do that? Who empowers you to do that? Whoever that is, that is who we call Adonai. He is our Master Self who benevolently shares Himself-His life, will, wisdom, etc. with us and offers us to be His partners. Aristotle taught that everything in existence could be defined in terms of substance and form. There is no such thing as form without substance, or substance without form. This is true of everything we do. Our daily life is a partnership with G-d. G-d provides the raw materials-the substance-and we determine the form. We don't have the choice to want, think and feel-we are always wanting, thinking and feeling- but we can choose what we are going to want, think and feel. We didn't choose to be born, but we can choose what to make of our lives. And our goal according to Judaism is to take the powers G-d shares with us and turn them into praise. What is praise -- tehilla? Rabbi S. R. Hirsh says that the word hallel means to reflect. In other words, to praise G-d means to become a living manifestation of His truth and reflect His greatness. Created in the image of G-d we are meant to mirror His splendor and glory; that His presence reverberate in everything we think, say and do. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/bf30bcb8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 3 21:39:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:39:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Wonderful 7 minute clip Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, This is a wonderful 7 minute video clip of Rav Binny Freedman of Isralight. I'm sure you'll find it worthwhile. Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - Rabbi Binny Freedman at Princeton_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVGoiMykkvM&feature=related) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/e3a11ddb/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 21:46:51 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:46:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some interesting thoughts about G-d In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05e701c8dd80$37f0f5f0$a7d2e1d0$@com> Hi, I thought the word for G-d was Elohim (?) Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Some interesting thoughts about G-d SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001sxTHN2KNBWIFLWpHZua49gZQsM7cnx787wkYrlS9RadBO-e02 HBaezrKgrH_Yli8PYGqOzYwbhCbhLlM6GGZWu7cTjR5MY25dMqJtRmhdaaL8L2PY8XvXA== Living G-d's Life http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001sxTHN2KNBWLkij_JvyTbOuKLII0T_Nb41KylBQWyPzq_oa9mt HQWpGqwaNX7PSI0pChJ7pXpAZaaNR2914WR0gPYhisb_phWhxR6VfR39UzUQGAu5TT-OE-mp44j_ vPTcx6_818fFdNcOFVwY20y7wdJXHGz7F-f Quite frankly, I don't believe in G-d. The word spelled G-O-D does nothing for me; in fact, it interferes with my true belief. I am not alone. Jews don't believe in G-d. Indeed, the word "G-d" is not found in the Torah or the rest of the Hebrew Bible. Moses never heard of G-d nor heard from G-d. The name in the Torah that has been translated as G- d or Lord is Adonai. The word Adonai means "Master." In Jewish law, whatever a servant owns actually belongs to his master; the servant has no possessions whatsoever. This law also governs our spirituality: G-d is our Master, and in essence we own nothing. For example, it is incorrect to say "my" life because it is really G-d's life. We do not own the life force within us. This is a difficult concept to accept for many people because it is not a concept-it is a self-evident experience. Consider this: If we are the master and owners of our lives, then we could stop our life and start it whenever we wanted. We could stop our heart beating and then start it again at will. So too, our thoughts are not really our own. If we were the masters of thinking, then we could stop thinking and start whenever we please. But we cannot; we are constantly thinking. The same goes with feeling; we are constantly feeling and cannot make ourselves stop. We can choose what to think, what to feel and what to do with our lives, but the actual act of thinking, feeling and living are G-d's powers that He shares with us. To take our life is to commit suicide. All we can do is humbly and gratefully receive the power of life that G-d, the Master of life, shares with us. Even our will is not our own. We did not invent will; we are not the source of will. We do not have the choice to have a will. What we do with our will-how we direct it and invest it-is our choice. What to choose is our choice, but the fact that we are able to choose is not our choice. Even our motor skills are not ours. We did not create the knowledge or the skills required to open our mouths. To open our mouths, we tap into a wisdom that is clearly not ours. Therefore, when I call to "Adonai" and want to feel His presence in my life I try to contemplate the miraculous mechanism of all my facial muscles and the wondrous ability to speak. I focus especially on the 17 muscles that mysteriously work with perfect coordination, shaping my lips to express every letter and syllable. Take a moment right now to simply open and close your mouth. Who taught you how to do that? Who empowers you to do that? Whoever that is, that is who we call Adonai. He is our Master Self who benevolently shares Himself-His life, will, wisdom, etc. with us and offers us to be His partners. Aristotle taught that everything in existence could be defined in terms of substance and form. There is no such thing as form without substance, or substance without form. This is true of everything we do. Our daily life is a partnership with G-d. G-d provides the raw materials-the substance-and we determine the form. We don't have the choice to want, think and feel-we are always wanting, thinking and feeling- but we can choose what we are going to want, think and feel. We didn't choose to be born, but we can choose what to make of our lives. And our goal according to Judaism is to take the powers G-d shares with us and turn them into praise. What is praise -- tehilla? Rabbi S. R. Hirsh says that the word hallel means to reflect. In other words, to praise G-d means to become a living manifestation of His truth and reflect His greatness. Created in the image of G-d we are meant to mirror His splendor and glory; that His presence reverberate in everything we think, say and do. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/593ef285/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 21:48:14 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:48:14 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] In-Reply-To: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thank you so much, Joe. ~ Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] Shalom Chaverim, To love or not to love ? ...... That is the question. To die or not to die ?...........That is the question. To live or not to live ?..........That is the question. Yeshua loved .............. for what he believed in........... TORAH. Yeshua died................ for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua lived............... for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua was a Rabbi who lived his life in context to the Holy Torah. Whilst he had brief encounters with foreigners such as the Roman centurion, the Syro-Phoenician woman, the Samaritan woman, and Pontius Pilate, his students and audience were exclusively Jewish. The Tanakh was his exclusive reference point. With this in mind, let us always be wary of not taking his reasoning out of context. "To love your neighbour"......... did it mean the chap next door, the neighbouring nation, or did it mean your fellow Jew ? "To love your enemy "............. did it mean the invading army, the surrounding hostile nations, or did it mean your fellow Jew that did not agree with you, had grievance with you , or had wronged you ? "To live /die by the sword "..... did it mean to submit to unprovoked brutal wanton murder or did it mean to resolve your differences without vengeance ? His teachings are always related to the personal inter relationships between his Jewish brethren and their relationship with HaShem. In Judaism there is the concept of "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred. The Rabbis explain that this was the cause of the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I have a personal outlook at what might have happened during the days of Yeshua. Both Yeshua and his cousin Yochanin preached Teshuva / Repentance. The Malchut Shamayim / Kingdom of Heaven was being proclaimed and on offer. The people of Yisrael had a choice in their method of redemption / salvation. Yeshua and Barabbas were on trail during the Pesach festival. Barabbas was on trial for sedition against the Romans. He was most likely a Sicari or a zealot. His method was most likely an armed popular revolt. His foundation was historical based on the Maccabe revolt against the Greeks. The result was victorious and deserved consideration. Yeshua on the other hand preached a message of "not by might, not by power, but by my spirit, sayeth HaShem" His message was of Teshuva and the return to HaShem first. The return to Torah. Then and only then ,through Achdut or unity would the redemption come. "A house divided could not stand." Through Teshuva and Achdut the meek lamb would transform into the roaring Lion of Yehuda . HaShem would then be Adonai z'vaot or the Master of Legions / Armies. The enemy would then be vanquished . Unfortunately Sinat Chinam prevailed and lack of unity was the order of the day. The rest is history. The identical choice is being offered today. Teshuva and Achdut are again in the spotlight. Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare. Morality is the first casualty of war. And yet the Torah has explicit laws regarding the terms of engagement with reference to warfare. ?? ??????? ??????, ????? ???? ?????????? ????????????, ???-?????? ?????????, ?????? ????-???????????--?????? ??????????? ?????????, ????????? ??????? ??????????. 25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the peoples that are under the whole heaven, who, when they hear the report of thee, shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.' ?? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????, ???-??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ???????, ??????. 26 And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying: ?? ?????????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????????? ??????: ??? ??????, ?????? ??????????. 27 'Let me pass through thy land; I will go along by the highway, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. ?? ????? ????????? ?????????????? ????????????, ??????? ????????? ???????-??? ???????????; ???, ?????????? ?????????. 28 Thou shalt sell me food for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink; only let me pass through on my feet; ?? ????????? ??????-??? ?????? ??????, ???????????? ??????????, ??????????????, ???????????? ??????--??? ??????-???????, ???-???????????, ???-???????, ??????-?????? ?????????? ????? ?????. 29 as the children of Esau that dwell in Seir, and the Moabites that dwell in Ar, did unto me; until I shall pass over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us.' ? ????? ?????, ?????? ?????? ??????????, ???????????, ????: ????-???????? ?????? ????????? ???-??????, ???????? ???-???????, ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????. {?} 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. {S} ?? ????????? ??????, ?????, ????? ?????????? ???? ?????????, ???-?????? ?????-???????; ????? ????, ???????? ???-???????. 31 And the LORD said unto me: 'Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee; begin to possess his land.' ?? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ?????-??????, ????????????--???????. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. ?? ????????????? ?????? ??????????, ??????????; ??????? ????? ?????-??????, ?????-????-??????. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. ?? ??????????? ???-????-??????, ?????? ??????, ?????????? ???-????-???? ?????, ???????????? ????????: ??? ????????????, ???????. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every city, the men, and the women, and the little ones; we left none remaining; ?? ??? ??????????, ?????????? ?????, ???????? ????????, ?????? ?????????. 35 only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, with the spoil of the cities which we had taken. ?? ????????? ?????? ???-??????-????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????, ?????-??????????, ??? ??????? ???????, ?????? ???????? ?????????: ???-??????, ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????. 36 From Aroer, which is on the edge of the valley of Arnon, and from the city that is in the valley, even unto Gilead, there was not a city too high for us: the LORD our God delivered up all before us. ?? ??? ???-????? ??????-???????, ??? ?????????: ????-??? ????? ??????, ??????? ?????, ????? ??????-??????, ?????? ??????????. 37 Only to the land of the children of Ammon thou camest not near; all the side of the river Jabbok, and the cities of the hill-country, and wheresoever the LORD our God forbade us. Deu 2 v 25 - 37 When Yisrael unites and does national Teshuva as the prophets foretold ,then the writing is on the wall for all it's enemies. Our role is to support them and aid their national cause. It is not for us to moralize them . The west has many questions to answer regarding it's hypocrisies and double standards. We ask the Jew to love his enemies, turn the other cheek, to negotiate with terrorists, and to trade land for peace. We claim biblical conceitedness without truly understanding the HEBREW BIBLE. We only further the evil. And yet when attacked do we love our enemy ? do we negotiate with terrorists ? do we turn the other cheek? do we trade land for peace ? Do we defend our national sovereignties ? Do we fight the Axis of Evil ? It is very easy to moralize from the comfort of an armchair. I know that many of us have proper intentions. But we need to have the true understanding of war as filtered through the Tanakh. Remember that in the Tanakh and the NT the scriptures speak of the coming of Mashiach to be heralded by wars, even to the point of the nations waring against the Mashiach. All his enemies will be a footstool under his feet. I am including a photographic montage for us to ponder. How would we react if we were subjected to this day in and day out. I only want us to do some real soul searching over the Shabbat rest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cZ6hsA1ogg Shabbat Shalom Your Achi JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/5abe1a9d/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jul 3 21:55:46 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:55:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's Discussions In-Reply-To: References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <05f801c8dd81$7745c540$65d14fc0$@com> Shalom All, Thank you all for talking with me about these things today. Perhaps there is a place of agreement somewhere in between Hanoch and myself. Maybe right now, before the Jeremiah and Hosea covenants come into existence, killing other humans may be necessary to stop evil; however it is not the ideal, and certainly not to be gloated over or celebrated. I am not comfortable here yet, but will give it careful consideration and prayer. Happy Fourth! Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080703/3c0c8ac8/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 07:30:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:30:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Turning Plowshares into Swords' Message-ID: Turning Plowshares Into Swords 1 Tammuz 5768, 04 July 08 05:56 by Naomi Ragen (IsraelNN.com) To live in Jerusalem is to face the fact that here, in the holiest city in the world, there are vast numbers of inhabitants who are the kind of human beings willing, able and committed to perform acts of sickening bloodshed, breaking every rule that human beings have created for themselves or learned or been taught. Worse, they involve G-d in their offenses, desecrating His name and His city in their maniacal search for the ultimate act of barbarism to promote their religion/politics/personal agenda. Take Mr. Duwait, a convicted rapist and felon who sat in jail for two years, a resident of the eastern Jerusalem Arab village Sur Baher, a relative of the terrorist who killed young yeshiva students in Mercaz Harav. He climbed into a huge tractor and, with astonishing barbarism, plowed down a major Jerusalem thoroughfare, sowing unimaginable destruction. As journalist Tom Gross put it: "Terrorists purposely target civilians, and this terrorist was no different. He chose his victims carefully, starting his attack by motioning with his hand for a woman motorist to drive before him. Then he rammed her car with the bulldozer's shovel. "He then used the bulldozer to plow into two public buses carrying passengers, including many women and children which he could clearly see through the buses' large glass windows. One of the buses was completely overturned, the other crashed. He then crushed a number of cars with their drivers still in them, and targeted several pedestrians chasing them down and running them over. A half-dozen cars were flattened and others were overturned by his Caterpillar vehicle as panic spread throughout the center of Israel's capital. Traffic was halted, and hundreds of people fled through the streets as medics treated the wounded. "One car was dragged several meters by the bulldozer. A baby was pulled out by a passerby before the vehicle was crushed, with the child's mother still inside. She died. "By the time his rampage was over, three Israeli civilians were dead and over 66 were wounded. Broken glass and blood were left down a stretch of one of Israel's busiest streets "All the time, the terrorist screamed Allah Akbar ('God is great' in Arabic) as he did so. "The terrorist was shot dead by a security guard working for a nearby bank as he approached Jerusalem's main working class food market, Mahane Yehuda." (And by a young soldier, the brother-in-law of the soldier who took out the Mercaz Harav terrorist. Imagine the woman with such a husband and such a brother!) Bathsheva Unterman, the 33-year-old kindergarten teacher who unstrapped her baby and handed her to a passerby through the car window before being crushed, had been through many treatments and waited many years for her daughter to be born. Her baby was unharmed. Not so the baby in the overturned bus, who remains in critical condition. Duwait's family has not expressed sorrow for the victims. But what they do want to know is why it was necessary to have killed Duwait. That way, I suppose they'd be waiting for another Israel soldier to be kidnapped and murdered to set their darling free. What is the moral of this story? As Rabbi David Booth said: "It was a case of someone turning a plowshare into a sword." The killing here yesterday was no random act. It was deliberate and personal. It was - and is - family against family. On one side, there are their families that raise their sons to be mass murderers and child killers, instilling in them a hate-filled culture and a religion with no respect for human life, encouraging them to kill and be killed. And then there is our family, which raises our sons to risk their lives to save the lives of others, instilling in them a culture and religion filled with the true love of G-d and mankind and life. Our family will triumph over their family. Our sons over their sons. And when they sit in their tents of mourning, keening over their dead, perhaps they might reflect on how it is they have raised sons who must be hunted down and killed like mad dogs. Perhaps, if that happens, they will need to mourn no more. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/210eede7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 07:32:33 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:32:33 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Israel is Paying for its Defeat' Message-ID: Israel is Paying for Its Defeat 1 Tammuz 5768, 04 July 08 05:57 by Jeff Jacoby (IsraelNN.com) It was two years ago this month that _Israel and Hizbullah went to war_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict) . On July 12, 2006, Hizbullah, an Iranian-sponsored and Syrian-backed political and terrorist organization, staged an unprovoked raid across the Lebanon-Israel border, killing three Israelis and kidnapping two others, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. The war that ensued - a war for which Hizbullah had openly prepared for six years, constructing fortified bunkers and amassing thousands of Katyusha artillery rockets along the border - was a disaster for Israel. The fighting lasted for 33 bloody days, during which Israel achieved none of its key objectives: it didn't destroy Hizbullah, it didn't stop the barrage of rockets slamming into its northern cities, and it didn't rescue its kidnapped soldiers. Never before had Israel's deterrent capability and its reputation for military indomitableness suffered such a blow. For the first time in its history, Israel had faced an Arab army in battle and failed to defeat it. When the hostilities ended with the adoption of UN Security Council _Resolution 1701_ (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/59c118f065c4465b852572a500625fea/3e1d31ccd699df0 c852571cb0052d40b!OpenDocument) , Hizbullah was still on its feet, bloodied but decidedly unbowed. Two years on, Israel is still paying for its defeat. In a humiliating capitulation last week, the government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert agreed to free five Hizbullah and Palestinian terrorists, plus a still-undetermined number of other security prisoners, in exchange for the corpses of Regev and Goldwasser. Among those to be turned loose is the _notorious Palestinian murderer Samir Kuntar_ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A2740-2003May17¬Found=true) , who in 1979 savagely killed four-year-old Einat Haran by smashing her skull against a rock with his rifle butt, having first shot her father in the back and then drowned him in the sea. Kuntar, who also killed two policemen and was responsible for the death of Einat's two-year-old sister, is today being hailed as a hero by Israel's enemies. The _Palestinian Authority calls him a "brave warrior,"_ (http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=8C0A6B33-4991-49E5-83CE-6E9CE5DB ECD8) and Beirut is festooned with his picture. This is not the first time Israel has negotiated with terrorists for the release of Israeli hostages (or their remains), nor the first time it has agreed to free brutal murderers. In so doing, it has almost certainly guaranteed the abduction of more of its citizens or soldiers in the future and ensured the murder of other innocents in days to come. With every such deal, Jerusalem erodes what little remains of its once-legendary reputation for avenging the deaths of Israelis killed by terrorists. The Israel that in 1976 flew a team of commandos 2,000 miles to rescue Jewish hostages being held in Uganda's Entebbe airport inspired respect and fear in its enemies. Israel today inspires their scorn. Hizbullah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has said that despite Israel's nuclear power and military prowess, it "is weaker than a spider's web." Last week's agreement to the swap of live terrorists for dead soldiers can only have reinforced that opinion. For months after Hizbullah's war with Israel ended, there were those who minimized the significance of its victory. _Thomas Friedman argued_ (http://select.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/opinion/09friedman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) in the New York Times, for example, that Hizbullah had "diminished its capability and Syria's and Iran's" and had failed to achieve "a single strategic gain." Under Resolution 1701, a UN peacekeeping force, known as _UNIFIL_ (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil) , was to patrol southern Lebanon and prevent Hizbullah from rearming or threatening Israel - "a huge strategic loss for Hizbullah," in Friedman's words. But UNIFIL has prevented nothing and 1701 is more or less a dead letter. Far from preventing the flow of new weapons to Hizbullah, the UN peacekeepers have routinely looked the other way as Iran has massively resupplied its Lebanese proxy. Hizbullah is now far better armed than it was in July 2006, with an estimated 40,000 rockets deployed north of the border and the ability to strike 97 percent of Israel's population. Israeli military intelligence reports that some _2,500 Hizbullah terrorists are in southern Lebanon_ (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/993721.html) , and have built a series of elaborate underground bunkers equipped with rocket launchers and mortar guns that can be fired by remote control. Most alarming of all is Hizbullah's effective takeover of Lebanon's government, which it intimidated into submission _through violent rampages in Beirut_ (http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gdXFIZqohgDzmE-QotwtAKFFSmvQ) in May. Hizbullah extorted the right to name 11 cabinet ministers, giving it veto power over every government decision. Which means that Hizbullah is no longer a state-sponsored terrorist organization. Now it is something far more dangerous: a terrorist organization with a state of its own. This article originally appeared in the Boston Globe on Wednesday, July 2, 2008. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/a95ef9e9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 07:48:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:48:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some thoughts from my teacher.... Message-ID: On Revenge Rabbi Meir Kahane Hy"D (Excerpted from OHR HARA'AYON [The Jewish Idea], Chapter12) Love has its place, as does hate. Peace has its place, as does war. Mercy has its place, as do cruelty and revenge. The Torah dons sackcloth over the distortion of the concept of revenge, which has become a target for the arrows of all Jewish Hellenists and worshippers of the alien culture, as if revenge were negative and evil by nature. The very opposite is true! No trait is more justified than revenge in the right time and place. G-d, Himself, is called NOKEM, Avenger: "The L-rd is a zealous and avenging G-d. The L-rd avenges and is full of wrath. He takes revenge on His adversaries and reserves wrath for His enemies" (Nachum 1:2). Our sages also said (Berachot 33a), "Shall we say that even revenge is great because it appears between two names of G-d? 'A G-d of vengeance is the L-rd' (Psalms 94:1). Rabbi Elazar responded, 'Indeed. Where revenge is necessary, it is a great thing.'" "It is a great thing!" It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d. As King David said (Psalms 58:11-12): The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Men shall say, "Verily there is a reward for the righteous. Verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth." This is the secret of the greatness and holiness of revenge. It explains why it is a mitzvah and why the righteous are joyous when they see it carried out. When injustice is done on earth, when the kingdom of evil takes control and stifles the righteous and the innocent, it is only natural for a person to ask G-d, "Where are You?" In a period of Divine concealment, doubt and heresy burgeon forth, as it says (Deut. 31:17), "I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. Many evils and troubles shall come upon them, so that they will say on that day, 'Are not these evils come upon us because our G-d is not among us?'" The explanation of many of the commentaries, that this verse refers to Israel's repenting, does not seem valid, for if so, why does Scripture immediately reiterate, "I will surely hide My face" (Ibid., v. 18)? Rather, the explanation is that Israel will explain the lack of G-d's presence not as His intentionally hiding His face, but as testimony, so to speak, that G-d is incapable of helping or that He does not exist, G-d forbid. The evildoer's victory is the very worst profanation of G-d's name, because it implies the defeat or impotence of G-d. Of this, King David said (Psalms 44:23-25): Nay, but for Your sake are we killed all the day. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Awake! Why do You sleep, O L-rd? Arouse Yourself, cast us not off forever. Wherefore do You hide Your face...?" Thus, when G-d stops hiding His face and actually "awakens...like a mighty man recovering from wine, and smites His enemies" (Psalms 78:65-66), when He takes the revenge of His people and of Himself, He thereby sanctifies His name, proving to the world that Israel indeed has a G-d and that He lives and endures. The victory of injustice and wickedness is ostensible proof of G-d's absence from the world, and there is no greater profanation of G-d's name. By contrast,G-d's victory and revenge over His enemies, the evildoers, prove to the world that "verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth!" (Psalms 58:12). **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/25b000b0/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 08:33:56 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:33:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Turning Plowshares into Swords' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Hanoch, this cuts right to the heart of all we have been discussing. May HaSHem bless Naomi Ragen, whose voice is the very heartbeat of Israel, and whose words teach us what it is like to live as Israelis in such terrible insanity. Thank you for this, and for all the work you do to bring Kol Yisrael Home. Together again - the whole family again as truly one nation under G-d - may we all work diligently to see it happen! B'Ahavah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 'Turning Plowshares into Swords' Turning Plowshares Into Swords 1 Tammuz 5768, 04 July 08 05:56by Naomi Ragen (IsraelNN.com) To live in Jerusalem is to face the fact that here, in the holiest city in the world, there are vast numbers of inhabitants who are the kind of human beings willing, able and committed to perform acts of sickening bloodshed, breaking every rule that human beings have created for themselves or learned or been taught. Worse, they involve G-d in their offenses, desecrating His name and His city in their maniacal search for the ultimate act of barbarism to promote their religion/politics/personal agenda. Take Mr. Duwait, a convicted rapist and felon who sat in jail for two years, a resident of the eastern Jerusalem Arab village Sur Baher, a relative of the terrorist who killed young yeshiva students in Mercaz Harav. He climbed into a huge tractor and, with astonishing barbarism, plowed down a major Jerusalem thoroughfare, sowing unimaginable destruction. As journalist Tom Gross put it: "Terrorists purposely target civilians, and this terrorist was no different. He chose his victims carefully, starting his attack by motioning with his hand for a woman motorist to drive before him. Then he rammed her car with the bulldozer's shovel. "He then used the bulldozer to plow into two public buses carrying passengers, including many women and children which he could clearly see through the buses' large glass windows. One of the buses was completely overturned, the other crashed. He then crushed a number of cars with their drivers still in them, and targeted several pedestrians chasing them down and running them over. A half-dozen cars were flattened and others were overturned by his Caterpillar vehicle as panic spread throughout the center of Israel's capital. Traffic was halted, and hundreds of people fled through the streets as medics treated the wounded. "One car was dragged several meters by the bulldozer. A baby was pulled out by a passerby before the vehicle was crushed, with the child's mother still inside. She died. "By the time his rampage was over, three Israeli civilians were dead and over 66 were wounded. Broken glass and blood were left down a stretch of one of Israel's busiest streets "All the time, the terrorist screamed Allah Akbar ('God is great' in Arabic) as he did so. "The terrorist was shot dead by a security guard working for a nearby bank as he approached Jerusalem's main working class food market, Mahane Yehuda." (And by a young soldier, the brother-in-law of the soldier who took out the Mercaz Harav terrorist. Imagine the woman with such a husband and such a brother!) Bathsheva Unterman, the 33-year-old kindergarten teacher who unstrapped her baby and handed her to a passerby through the car window before being crushed, had been through many treatments and waited many years for her daughter to be born. Her baby was unharmed. Not so the baby in the overturned bus, who remains in critical condition. Duwait's family has not expressed sorrow for the victims. But what they do want to know is why it was necessary to have killed Duwait. That way, I suppose they'd be waiting for another Israel soldier to be kidnapped and murdered to set their darling free. What is the moral of this story? As Rabbi David Booth said: "It was a case of someone turning a plowshare into a sword." The killing here yesterday was no random act. It was deliberate and personal. It was - and is - family against family. On one side, there are their families that raise their sons to be mass murderers and child killers, instilling in them a hate-filled culture and a religion with no respect for human life, encouraging them to kill and be killed. And then there is our family, which raises our sons to risk their lives to save the lives of others, instilling in them a culture and religion filled with the true love of G-d and mankind and life. Our family will triumph over their family. Our sons over their sons. And when they sit in their tents of mourning, keening over their dead, perhaps they might reflect on how it is they have raised sons who must be hunted down and killed like mad dogs. Perhaps, if that happens, they will need to mourn no more. www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/bfdf0ccd/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 08:48:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:48:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate YouTube video Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, I just stumbled across this video on YouTube; please watch it... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - IDF Tribute_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Fwe00oVFM) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/63d7273a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 09:39:46 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:39:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate YouTube video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome, Hanoch!!!! Thank you!!!!!! ~ Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 9:48 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate YouTube video Shalom L'Kulchem, I just stumbled across this video on YouTube; please watch it... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch Click here: YouTube - IDF Tribute -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/5f127b48/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jul 4 09:44:53 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:44:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <067c01c8dde4$8695def0$93c19cd0$@com> Good Morning All, A very kind person wrote to me privately today and said, "I am a hawk but I have learned a dove has a place also - Bottom line each was created by HaShem for a reason - so let's keep finding the reason." This is so true - even in Ancient Israel not all were soldiers and warriors - there were also priests. Not all messiah-kings were violent - David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man of war, it was left to peaceable Solomon. As for me - I choose to do violence to no man - or animal for that matter. That is my place right now. Thank you for letting me post my views. Happy Fourth! Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/de9a7f78/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 10:30:11 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 11:30:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves In-Reply-To: <067c01c8dde4$8695def0$93c19cd0$@com> References: <067c01c8dde4$8695def0$93c19cd0$@com> Message-ID: Thank you, Patty! You are loved, Little Dove. ~ Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 10:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves Good Morning All, A very kind person wrote to me privately today and said, "I am a hawk but I have learned a dove has a place also - Bottom line each was created by HaShem for a reason - so let's keep finding the reason." This is so true - even in Ancient Israel not all were soldiers and warriors - there were also priests. Not all messiah-kings were violent - David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man of war, it was left to peaceable Solomon. As for me - I choose to do violence to no man - or animal for that matter. That is my place right now. Thank you for letting me post my views. Happy Fourth! Patty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/ea667692/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 11:59:58 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:59:58 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves Message-ID: Boker tov Patty, Just one thing - the Sages point out that David HaMelech was not able to build the Bet HaMikdash (Temple) because the (United) Kingdom was not secure (yet); not because he waged war. Have a wonderful July 4th & a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/c79a036a/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jul 4 12:57:37 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:57:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves In-Reply-To: References: <067c01c8dde4$8695def0$93c19cd0$@com> Message-ID: <06e001c8ddff$73b99400$5b2cbc00$@com> Thank you Avigail, you are loved as well. Patty/Azilah From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 11:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves Thank you, Patty! You are loved, Little Dove. ~ Avigail/Pat From: Patty Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 10:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves Good Morning All, A very kind person wrote to me privately today and said, "I am a hawk but I have learned a dove has a place also - Bottom line each was created by HaShem for a reason - so let's keep finding the reason." This is so true - even in Ancient Israel not all were soldiers and warriors - there were also priests. Not all messiah-kings were violent - David was not allowed to build the Temple because he was a man of war, it was left to peaceable Solomon. As for me - I choose to do violence to no man - or animal for that matter. That is my place right now. Thank you for letting me post my views. Happy Fourth! Patty _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/e5e85ec4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 4 17:28:42 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 18:28:42 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Haftara for Parshat Chukat Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, The Haftara (Prophetic Portion) associated with Parshat Chukat, which we read this Shabbat has enormous relevance to the current situation in Israel. Firstly, get your Tanach's, it's in Sefer Shoftim (Judges), 11:1-33. There's an expression that is often used in studying the Torah - "Ma'aseh avot, siman L'Banim" - "The deeds of the father's are 'signs' (examples) for the children. Now let's look at the situation; Yiftach has been 'drafted' as the leader of the Israelite tribes, since the forces of Ammon are threatening. There is an exchange of messengers between Yiftach and the king of the Ammonites. Essentially, Yiftach wanted to know why they wanted to go to war against Israel (like today, when the Israeli government can't get it...). The king of Ammon replies: "When Israel came from Egypt, they seized the land which is mine, from the Arnon to the Yabok as far as the Jordan. Now, then, restore it peaceably." Shoftim 11:17 Well, this is like what the current government of Israel is being offered by the muslims demanding the Land of Israel. So, what is the response? Did we trade 'Land for Peace?' Well, Yiftach sent a messenger back to the king of Ammon with the a message 11:15-27, explaining that Israel did not take their land. And when the king of Ammon ignored the message (big surprise..), instead of asking for UNIFIL observers, Yiftach led the Israelites in war, to protect their land; the land given to them by HaShem, by G-d. Makes one think..... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080704/aff535e4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 5 10:17:36 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:17:36 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <070520081517.10119.486F90900003F49A0000278722230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hanoch, Okay, I got a question. I understand the Sages explanations but how do they reconcile 1 Chron 6 - 10? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Boker tov Patty, Just one thing - the Sages point out that David HaMelech was not able to build the Bet HaMikdash (Temple) because the (United) Kingdom was not secure (yet); not because he waged war. Have a wonderful July 4th & a Shabbat Shalom! Hanoch Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/e7b738f6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 5 12:47:13 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 17:47:13 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] In-Reply-To: References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <070520081747.27874.486FB3A0000920F600006CE222230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> That's right Joe. That's one of the main reasons I feel that I need to go over there, to see for myself. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" : -------------- Thank you so much, Joe. ~ Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] To Love Your Enemies?!?] Shalom Chaverim, To love or not to love ? ...... That is the question. To die or not to die ?...........That is the question. To live or not to live ?..........That is the question. Yeshua loved .............. for what he believed in........... TORAH. Yeshua died................ for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua lived............... for what he believed in............ TORAH. Yeshua was a Rabbi who lived his life in context to the Holy Torah. Whilst he had brief encounters with foreigners such as the Roman centurion, the Syro-Phoenician woman, the Samaritan woman, and Pontius Pilate, his students and audience were exclusively Jewish. The Tanakh was his exclusive reference point. With this in mind, let us always be wary of not taking his reasoning out of context. "To love your neighbour"......... did it mean the chap next door, the neighbouring nation, or did it mean your fellow Jew ? "To love your enemy "............. did it mean the invading army, the surrounding hostile nations, or did it mean your fellow Jew that did not agree with you, had grievance with you , or had wronged you ? "To live /die by the sword "..... did it mean to submit to unprovoked brutal wanton murder or did it mean to resolve your differences without vengeance ? His teachings are always related to the personal inter relationships between his Jewish brethren and their relationship with HaShem. In Judaism there is the concept of "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred. The Rabbis explain that this was the cause of the destruction of the 2nd Temple. I have a personal outlook at what might have happened during the days of Yeshua. Both Yeshua and his cousin Yochanin preached Teshuva / Repentance. The Malchut Shamayim / Kingdom of Heaven was being proclaimed and on offer. The people of Yisrael had a choice in their method of redemption / salvation. Yeshua and Barabbas were on trail during the Pesach festival. Barabbas was on trial for sedition against the Romans. He was most likely a Sicari or a zealot. His method was most likely an armed popular revolt. His foundation was historical based on the Maccabe revolt against the Greeks. The result was victorious and deserved consideration. Yeshua on the other hand preached a message of "not by might, not by power, but by my spirit, sayeth HaShem" His message was of Teshuva and the return to HaShem first. The return to Torah. Then and only then ,through Achdut or unity would the redemption come. "A house divided could not stand." Through Teshuva and Achdut the meek lamb would transform into the roaring Lion of Yehuda . HaShem would then be Adonai z'vaot or the Master of Legions / Armies. The enemy would then be vanquished . Unfortunately Sinat Chinam prevailed and lack of unity was the order of the day. The rest is history. The identical choice is being offered today. Teshuva and Achdut are again in the spotlight. Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare. Morality is the first casualty of war. And yet the Torah has explicit laws regarding the terms of engagement with reference to warfare. ?? ??????? ??????, ????? ???? ?????????? ????????????, ???-?????? ?????????, ?????? ????-???????????--?????? ??????????? ?????????, ????????? ??????? ??????????. 25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the peoples that are under the whole heaven, who, when they hear the report of thee, shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.' ?? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????? ????????, ???-??????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ???????, ??????. 26 And I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying: ?? ?????????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????????? ??????: ??? ??????, ?????? ??????????. 27 'Let me pass through thy land; I will go along by the highway, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. ?? ????? ????????? ?????????????? ????????????, ??????? ????????? ???????-??? ???????????; ???, ?????????? ?????????. 28 Thou shalt sell me food for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink; only let me pass through on my feet; ?? ????????? ??????-??? ?????? ??????, ???????????? ??????????, ??????????????, ???????????? ??????--??? ??????-???????, ???-???????????, ???-???????, ??????-?????? ?????????? ????? ?????. 29 as the children of Esau that dwell in Seir, and the Moabites that dwell in Ar, did unto me; until I shall pass over the Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us.' ? ????? ?????, ?????? ?????? ??????????, ???????????, ????: ????-???????? ?????? ????????? ???-??????, ???????? ???-???????, ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????. {?} 30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. {S} ?? ????????? ??????, ?????, ????? ?????????? ???? ?????????, ???-?????? ?????-???????; ????? ????, ???????? ???-???????. 31 And the LORD said unto me: 'Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee; begin to possess his land.' ?? ???????? ?????? ???????????? ???? ?????-??????, ????????????--???????. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. ?? ????????????? ?????? ??????????, ??????????; ??????? ????? ?????-??????, ?????-????-??????. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. ?? ??????????? ???-????-??????, ?????? ??????, ?????????? ???-????-???? ?????, ???????????? ????????: ??? ????????????, ???????. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every city, the men, and the women, and the little ones; we left none remaining; ?? ??? ??????????, ?????????? ?????, ???????? ????????, ?????? ?????????. 35 only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, with the spoil of the cities which we had taken. ?? ????????? ?????? ???-??????-????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????, ?????-??????????, ??? ??????? ???????, ?????? ???????? ?????????: ???-??????, ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????. 36 From Aroer, which is on the edge of the valley of Arnon, and from the city that is in the valley, even unto Gilead, there was not a city too high for us: the LORD our God delivered up all before us. ?? ??? ???-????? ??????-???????, ??? ?????????: ????-??? ????? ??????, ??????? ?????, ????? ??????-??????, ?????? ??????????. 37 Only to the land of the children of Ammon thou camest not near; all the side of the river Jabbok, and the cities of the hill-country, and wheresoever the LORD our God forbade us. Deu 2 v 25 - 37 When Yisrael unites and does national Teshuva as the prophets foretold ,then the writing is on the wall for all it's enemies. Our role is to support them and aid their national cause. It is not for us to moralize them . The west has many questions to answer regarding it's hypocrisies and double standards. We ask the Jew to love his enemies, turn the other cheek, to negotiate with terrorists, and to trade land for peace. We claim biblical conceitedness without truly understanding the HEBREW BIBLE. We only further the evil. And yet when attacked do we love our enemy ? do we negotiate with terrorists ? do we turn the other cheek? do we trade land for peace ? Do we defend our national sovereignties ? Do we fight the Axis of Evil ? It is very easy to moralize from the comfort of an armchair. I know that many of us have proper intentions. But we need to have the true understanding of war as filtered through the Tanakh. Remember that in the Tanakh and the NT the scriptures speak of the coming of Mashiach to be heralded by wars, even to the point of the nations waring against the Mashiach. All his enemies will be a footstool under his feet. I am including a photographic montage for us to ponder. How would we react if we were subjected to this day in and day out. I only want us to do some real soul searching over the Shabbat rest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cZ6hsA1ogg Shabbat Shalom Your Achi JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/a937234e/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Jul 5 19:25:34 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:25:34 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill In-Reply-To: <070520081747.27874.486FB3A0000920F600006CE222230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> <070520081747.27874.486FB3A0000920F600006CE222230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <075501c8defe$d033bc10$709b3430$@com> Shalom All, I hope you have all had a restful Shabbat. I have pulled the tar and feathers off and would like to posit another question J. In our discussions, someone said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare.? I asked this person and would like to ask all: What is Israel to do in the case of adultery or a rebellious child according to Torah? Is Israel still obligated to stone the guilty? Or are we perhaps in the cusp of the Jeremiah Covenant? Did Yeshua know this when, in addition to saying ?love your enemies?, he also said ?let he who is without sin cast the first stone?? I look forward to discussing this. Love and Blessings, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/e7e2b4a1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jul 5 20:44:59 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 21:44:59 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves Message-ID: Hi John - Shavua tov - Chapters 6-10? Verses? Please point me in the right direction....toda! Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/6b5ac4a6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 20:45:23 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 18:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill In-Reply-To: <075501c8defe$d033bc10$709b3430$@com> Message-ID: <294116.76278.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Patty, [I sure wish you were here to do some back-up vocals for me-but thats another subject] ? All that Yeshua had to say is subject to the Torah, of course. So, under duly?re-constituted authority, we must carry out all the judgments of the Covenant, whether they are politically-correct or empathetically-correct in our own eyes. Would you not agree? ? "He who is without sin cast the first stone" has been translated as "He who is without THIS sin, cast the first stone." In other words, he was reading their mail - they were guilty THIS sin themselves. He was not appointed a judge?during that time anyway - ?and, it was not lawful for a 'mob' to stone someone anyway ---- if I understand correctly. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Sat, 7/5/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 7:25 PM Shalom All, ? I hope you have all had a restful Shabbat. I have pulled the tar and feathers off and would like to posit another question J. In our discussions, someone said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare.? I asked this person and would like to ask all: What is Israel to do in the case of adultery or a rebellious child according to Torah? Is Israel still obligated to stone the guilty? Or are we perhaps in the cusp of the Jeremiah Covenant? Did Yeshua know this when, in addition to saying ?love your enemies?, he also said ?let he who is without sin cast the first stone?? I look forward to discussing this. Love and Blessings, Patty ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/ebed732e/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 5 21:08:59 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 19:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill In-Reply-To: <294116.76278.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <636475.37048.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> and, as for Tar-and-Feathers, as a fellow Israelite, you seem to have thick skin, so surely it doesn't hurt too much...maybe it'll be my turn next?...all of this will make us all better in the end. ? You are Loved!!! ? ? Tracy & Lynn --- On Sat, 7/5/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 8:45 PM Shalom Patty, [I sure wish you were here to do some back-up vocals for me-but thats another subject] ? All that Yeshua had to say is subject to the Torah, of course. So, under duly?re-constituted authority, we must carry out all the judgments of the Covenant, whether they are politically-correct or empathetically-correct in our own eyes. Would you not agree? ? "He who is without sin cast the first stone" has been translated as "He who is without THIS sin, cast the first stone." In other words, he was reading their mail - they were guilty THIS sin themselves. He was not appointed a judge?during that time anyway - ?and, it was not lawful for a 'mob' to stone someone anyway ---- if I understand correctly. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Sat, 7/5/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 7:25 PM Shalom All, ? I hope you have all had a restful Shabbat. I have pulled the tar and feathers off and would like to posit another question J. In our discussions, someone said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah laws ruling the terms of warfare.? I asked this person and would like to ask all: What is Israel to do in the case of adultery or a rebellious child according to Torah? Is Israel still obligated to stone the guilty? Or are we perhaps in the cusp of the Jeremiah Covenant? Did Yeshua know this when, in addition to saying ?love your enemies?, he also said ?let he who is without sin cast the first stone?? I look forward to discussing this. Love and Blessings, Patty ?_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/a1c51ac9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jul 5 21:09:35 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:09:35 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] More insanity.. Message-ID: Shavua tov - This was forwarded to me by a friend...there's nothing for me to add... Hanoch Terror & Humiliation in Israel Batsheva Unterman had to undergo long periods of fertility treatment before she was able to conceive. But at last she and her husband had a baby. Five months ago, Baby Efrat was born, a healthy little girl. Yesterday, Baby Efrat's Mom took her for a checkup in the clinic for babies in downtown Jerusalem. When they were finished, Mom put Efrat in her stroller and went out into the street. Mom strapped Baby Efrat down in her baby seat in the car and hopped into the driver's side. The injured terrorist inside the bulldozer had stopped the vehicle, but suddenly started on his rampage again. Batsheva was murdered by the terrorist, as she was crushed by the bulldozer, which struck her car. Baby Efrat was rescued by a passerby. She had never even broken into a cry when the car was struck. Will the terrorist's family be expelled from Israel? Will their house in East Jerusalem be destroyed or turned over to Jewish "settlers" as a place to live? No, grasshopper. Haim Ramon, Kadima politician, confirmed on TV yesterday that the terrorist's family will be able to collect survivor benefits for themselves from Israel's social security administration (the National Insurance Institute), like any other Israeli who passes away. Just like families of terrorists with Israeli citizenship who died while murdering before him. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/8c1b80de/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 21:14:51 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:14:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill] Message-ID: <48702A9B.1040201@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/49ea5ad8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patty " Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 20:25:34 -0400 Size: 11525 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/49ea5ad8/attachment.eml From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jul 5 21:35:47 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:35:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill In-Reply-To: <075501c8defe$d033bc10$709b3430$@com> References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> <070520081747.27874.486FB3A0000920F600006CE222230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <075501c8defe$d033bc10$709b3430$@com> Message-ID: <48702F83.2000008@gninc.ca> Shalom Patty I too would like to know others say. I do hear that you seem to be quite well influenced by the teachings from the New Testament. I was there too almost all my life. I do not blame you or hold it against you to see it this way, that killing is wrong, is that right? Here are a couple of comparisons out of the Torah alone. I believe now, as of the last 10 years or so, that, and answer the Torah can stand on its own, to answer whether to kill or not to. In /Ge 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;/ (KJV) There was a curse laid on Cain for slaying his brother. But in the following verses David and his men were praising HaShem for delivering David's enemies through warfare by a righteous King for the welfare of the kingdom of Israel, while they were accounted worthy to be delivered. / 2Sa 21:21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the brother of David slew him. 22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants. 22:1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul: 2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies./ (KJV) I believe when All of Israel will be united and of one mind, taking a stand like King David did, will also bring with it peace and this time in such a clear witness to the world, that they or all of us will be able to change our spears into plow shares. There will be no more wars and bloodshed. I also understand that once there would be a righteous Sanhedrin set up again, like in the days of King David, these laws would go into effect as well as in the past. But than, as well as in the future, when ever anyone repents from the heart when they have sinned, not out of fear for the consequences, but in honor of HaShem, there was always mercy for such repentance in the Torah laws. Like in the case with David and Bethsheba, as well as it will be in the future when there will be true peace on earth, with the coming of the messiah. As far as concerns the story of Yeshua having said "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". There is quite clear evidence that the story of the woman caught in the very act of adultery, as the story goes in /Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act/.(KJV) is not found in the earliest found manuscript of the book of John. If this is true, Than Yeshua likely never said these words. Does this answer part of your questions? Cornie Patty wrote: > > Shalom All, > > > > I hope you have all had a restful Shabbat. I have pulled the tar > and feathers off and would like to posit another question J. > > In our discussions, someone said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law > MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah > laws ruling the terms of warfare.? > > I asked this person and would like to ask all: What is Israel to > do in the case of adultery or a rebellious child according to > Torah? Is Israel still obligated to stone the guilty? Or are we > perhaps in the cusp of the Jeremiah Covenant? Did Yeshua know this > when, in addition to saying ?love your enemies?, he also said ?let > he who is without sin cast the first stone?? > > I look forward to discussing this. > > Love and Blessings, > > Patty > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1536 - Release Date: 05/07/2008 10:15 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/4c940fcf/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 21:51:34 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:51:34 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] More insanity..] Message-ID: <48703336.1030104@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/4fe9f1cf/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] More insanity.. Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 22:09:35 EDT Size: 8911 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/4fe9f1cf/attachment.eml From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jul 5 21:59:04 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 21:59:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill ,correction In-Reply-To: <48702F83.2000008@gninc.ca> References: <486D79E0.4030001@westnet.com.au> <070520081747.27874.486FB3A0000920F600006CE222230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <075501c8defe$d033bc10$709b3430$@com> <48702F83.2000008@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <487034F8.7080503@gninc.ca> A couple of corrections in this writing, my grammar is always poor, I have to go over it again and again. Sorry Cornie Reimer wrote: > Shalom Patty > I too would like to know what the others say. I do hear that you seem > to be quite well influenced by the teachings from the New Testament. > As I was almost all my life. Do I get it right that you believe > killing is wrong, is that right? > > Here are a couple of comparisons out of the Torah alone. I believe > now, as of the last 10 years or so, that, the Torah can stand on its > own, to answer whether to kill or not to. In /Ge 4:8 And Cain talked > with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the > field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. > 9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he > said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? > 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood > crieth unto me from the ground. > 11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her > mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;/ > (KJV) > > There was a curse laid on Cain for slaying his brother. (That was not > the time of the NT) But in the following verses David and his men > were praising HaShem for delivering David's enemies through warfare by > a righteous King for the welfare of the kingdom of Israel, while they > were accounted worthy to be delivered. > / > 2Sa 21:21 And when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea the > brother of David slew him. > 22 These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of > David, and by the hand of his servants. > 22:1 And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day > that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, > and out of the hand of Saul: > 2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; > 3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the > horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou > savest me from violence. > 4 I will call on the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be > saved from mine enemies./ > (KJV) > > I believe when All of Israel, both the Joe's and Jews, will be united > and of one mind, taking a stand like King David did, will also bring > with it peace and this time in such a clear witness to the world, that > they or all of us will be able to change our spears into plow shares. > There will be no more wars and bloodshed. > > I also understand that once there would be a righteous Sanhedrin set > up again, like in the days of King David, these laws would go into > effect as well as in the past. But than, as well as in the future, > when ever anyone repents from the heart when they have sinned, not out > of fear for the consequences, but in honor of HaShem, there was always > mercy for such repentance in the Torah laws. Like in the case with > David and Bethsheba, as well as it will be in the future when there > will be true peace on earth, with the coming of the messiah. > > As far as concerns the story of Yeshua having said "let him who is > without sin cast the first stone". There is quite clear evidence that > the story of the woman caught in the very act of adultery, as the > story goes in /Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was > taken in adultery, in the very act/.(KJV) is not found in the earliest > found manuscript of the book of John. If this is true, Than Yeshua > likely never said these words. > > Does this answer part of your questions? > > Cornie > > > Patty wrote: >> >> Shalom All, >> >> >> >> I hope you have all had a restful Shabbat. I have pulled the tar >> and feathers off and would like to posit another question J. >> >> In our discussions, someone said, ?Yisrael according to Torah law >> MUST DEFEND itself. It MUST conduct itself according to the Torah >> laws ruling the terms of warfare.? >> >> I asked this person and would like to ask all: What is Israel to >> do in the case of adultery or a rebellious child according to >> Torah? Is Israel still obligated to stone the guilty? Or are we >> perhaps in the cusp of the Jeremiah Covenant? Did Yeshua know >> this when, in addition to saying ?love your enemies?, he also >> said ?let he who is without sin cast the first stone?? >> >> I look forward to discussing this. >> >> Love and Blessings, >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1536 - Release Date: 05/07/2008 10:15 AM >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1536 - Release Date: 05/07/2008 10:15 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/af657a59/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sat Jul 5 22:18:24 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 23:18:24 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Message-ID: Shavua tov L'Kulchem - VERY interesting...make sure not to miss the last line.... Hanoch Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection By _ETHAN BRONNER_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/ethan_bronner/index.html?inline=nyt-per) Published: July 6, 2008 JERUSALEM ? A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days. (javascript:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/06/world/06stone.ready.html', '06stone_ready', 'width=445,height=600,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes')) Dominic Buettner for The New York Times When David Jeselsohn bought an ancient tablet, above, he was unaware of its significance. If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time. The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era ? in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone. It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate. Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase. Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day. ?Some Christians will find it shocking ? a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology ? while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,? Mr. Boyarin said. Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet?s contribution is fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning. The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus. How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes, also will be discussed. Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in the coming months. ?I couldn?t make much out of it when I got it,? said David Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. ?I didn?t realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed. ?You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,? she told me.? Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai. Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C. A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone?s authenticity. It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed ?Gabriel?s Revelation,? also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence from before Jesus. When he read ?Gabriel?s Revelation,? he said, he believed he saw what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion. Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus? day as an important explanation of that era?s messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on messianic overtones. In Mr. Knohl?s interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone?s passages were probably Simon?s followers, Mr. Knohl contends. The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet ? ?In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice? ? and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice. To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words ?L?shloshet yamin,? meaning ?in three days.? The next word of the line was deemed partially illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is ?hayeh,? or ?live? in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era. Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, ?In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you.? To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says ?Sar hasarin,? or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of ?a prince of princes,? Mr. Knohl contends that the stone?s writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days. He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David. ?This should shake our basic view of Christianity,? he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. ?Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.? Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed likely that the key illegible word was ?hayeh,? or ?live.? Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure. Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from no later than the first century B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be published in the coming months. Regarding Mr. Knohl?s thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious. ?There is one problem,? he said. ?In crucial places of the text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl?s tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing words.? Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and books, ?Gabriel?s Revelation? and Mr. Knohl?s analysis deserved serious attention. ?Here we have a real stone with a real text,? he said. ?This is truly significant.? Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day. But there was, he said, and ?Gabriel?s Revelation? shows it. ?His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,? Mr. Knohl said. ?This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.? **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080705/ed88f50c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 23:38:54 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:38:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Message-ID: <48704C5E.4030501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/64f7dcee/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 23:39:10 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:39:10 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH PART 2. Message-ID: <48704C6E.4080608@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/b883bc96/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 23:39:21 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:39:21 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3. Message-ID: <48704C79.4010102@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/04a4cd9b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 23:48:32 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:48:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the Rebbe, Moshiach, Kaballah and Chassidus Message-ID: <48704EA0.6030201@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/b839ce23/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 5 23:51:50 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:51:50 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the Rebbe, Moshiach, Kaballah and Chassidus Message-ID: <48704F66.2070102@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/94adba71/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 6 00:43:18 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 05:43:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Hawks and Doves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <070620080543.1463.48705B720006D5C1000005B722243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Oops sorry. 1 Chron 22:6-10. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- Hi John - Shavua tov - Chapters 6-10? Verses? Please point me in the right direction....toda! Hanoch Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/52d07354/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 03:56:32 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:56:32 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Message-ID: Shalom Joe, One thing I need to jump in on - this is from a Chabad (Lubavitch) site....from those that believe that the Rebbe (May he rest in peace) was/is/will be, whatever, is the Mashiach. Sorry, but although they use quotes from Jewish sources, their opinions are not considered, from where I sit. The idea that a resurrected dead person can be Mashiach is NOT the view of normative, traditional Judaism, or the vast majority of Jewish sages throughout history. The Rebbe isn't the Mashiach, and neither is Jesus/Yeshua - they are dead. Once dead - you can't be the Mashiach...period. Since the Rebbe's death, Chabad has become more cult-like in their approach to things like this - including the song they sing about the Rebbe, the, "... King Messiah, from now and forever..." It's not even 5:00am here, so let me stop here, since this really isn't the place for me to skewer Chabad; which as they say, is the religion today that is closest to Judaism.... Take care my friend, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/8603a04d/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 04:21:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 05:21:17 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Message-ID: Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/7d39ac47/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 04:27:43 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 05:27:43 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] To Kill or not to Kill Message-ID: Hi Patty - Exactly what do you mean by the "Jeremiah Covenant?" And how do you see that fitting in with the Covenantal relationship that HaShem already has?? Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/320109b1/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 07:02:59 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As an historian I would, however, want to point out that during the late 2nd Temple period there was a rich and complex variety of "Judaisms," as now documented in all academic sources. The idea of a single "normative" Judaism, was probably never operative but the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud, with their basic system of interpretation, does seem to take root after 70 CE and the destruction of the Temple. But still, this stream, of the Pharisees, is one of several/many streams, from the Essene, to the Enochian, to the Sadducean, to the Nazarene--most of which died out or became very weak, but ALL of them would have said THEIR views and interpretations go back to Moses (or Enoch!). It should also be pointed out that of the "halachic" froms of Judaism today there are vast differences when it comes to matters "above and below, ahead and behind," that is areas of "religious speculations" about the future and the unseen world. Those who inhabit the mysticial/esoteric traditions, associated with the Kabbalah, are convinced they go back to the time of Adam, while the Ramban and other "rational" approaches would root these ideas in late antiquity early Middle Ages, as imports from forms of Hellenistic dualism and gnosticism. Given this diverse history the messianic views of a segment of Chabad hardly disqualifies them as a form of Judaism-- and they are fairly orthopraxic in terms of halacha are they not? James On Jul 6, 2008, at 4:56 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Shalom Joe, > > One thing I need to jump in on - this is from a Chabad > (Lubavitch) site....from those that believe that the Rebbe (May he > rest in peace) was/is/will be, whatever, is the Mashiach. Sorry, > but although they use quotes from Jewish sources, their opinions are > not considered, from where I sit. The idea that a resurrected dead > person can be Mashiach is NOT the view of normative, traditional > Judaism, or the vast majority of Jewish sages throughout history. > The Rebbe isn't the Mashiach, and neither is Jesus/Yeshua - they are > dead. Once dead - you can't be the Mashiach...period. > > Since the Rebbe's death, Chabad has become more cult-like in > their approach to things like this - including the song they sing > about the Rebbe, the, "... King Messiah, from now and forever..." > It's not even 5:00am here, so let me stop here, since this really > isn't the place for me to skewer Chabad; which as they say, is the > religion today that is closest to Judaism.... > > Take care my friend, > Hanoch > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/5afa2958/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Jul 6 07:11:10 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:11:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a001c8df61$6247bef0$0400a8c0@marvin> Hanoch, Joe and others, Interesting article thanks for sharing. If you guys and gals remember a few weeks / months ago Dr. Tabor lead us to the article about the "Three days and Live" paper that was done by Israel Knohl. (found it. I'm knee deep in papers and books. One of these days I will have to get organized. But, then that will take time away form my reading and study:-)) May 18,2008 Suffering Messiahs and resurrection after Three Days, filed under Christians Orgins, Dr. Tabors website. Great article and you should also find a link to the "By three days live" text. About the time Dr. Tabor shared this with us I was just starting Israel Knohl's book "The Messiah before Jesus". Talking about "opening eyes, and getting wax out of ears" this one should be read. John C. in the last few days shared the 1Chro. 22:6-10 text, showing us that Solomon was a / the "Son of God". Most interesting. In this discussion of Moshiach , I personally have went form one extreme to the other in the last twenty years. But I'm beginning to think and entertain that Moshiach, regardless of who he is , Moses, Daniel, Elijah, John the Immerser, Jesus the son of Joseph, the Rebbe to the Luv. Chahab or even our own dear Hanoch or any other host of candidates will have to be a person who has pasted to a higher level then we humans are living on. When God built this planet and creation for us the Sons and Daughters of Adam he created one door to enter and one door to exit for his human creation. The entrance is the womb, the exit is death the grave. No other way in or out! But we know of one other way, referred to as Jacob's latter (a door for spiritual beings / creatures of a different order then we humans are). This door swings both in and out, they come in and they pass back out. Also, we have the door of resurrection, which seems to only open one way. ( IN ). The door of resurrection seems to deal with dead people (humans) coming back to life. For Paul, this was a big / major part of his theology... not only for his Messiah(Jesus) but also, for all those who had faith / hope in Messiah. I wonder... did Paul, know about this text of the "three days and live", did Paul understand the idea expressed in the Talmud / teachings / Torah about the resurrection? Did Paul understand Israel's Knohl's thesis about "The Messiah before Jesus" ? Regardless of Paul being correct in his choice of who Messiah is / was, had Paul been to Qumran and studied the text / teaching of that sect.? We get lost in the Moshiach discussion when we want to put a face on the subject, Habakkuk 2:3 The vision is for an appointed time.. though it tarries, wait for it,..... it will surely come.... Hanoch, Quoting the article you sent...... "Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day. But there was, he said, and "Gabriel's Revelation" shows it. "His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come," Mr. Knohl said. "This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel." " Just something to toss out to create ripples in the water.... If in the future Messiah comes and it turns out to be Jesus of the fist century, (through the door of resurrection) and just as the christian world view are about to bow the knee, Jesus informs them... I died and shed my blood not for the sins of the people but to bring redemption to Israel.. better duck.. ear wax will be flying like bullets and eye lids will be peeled back like doing 75 foot swan dives into the water. Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Shavua tov L'Kulchem - VERY interesting...make sure not to miss the last line.... Hanoch Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection By ETHAN BRONNER Published: July 6, 2008 JERUSALEM - A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days. javascript:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/06/world/06 stone.ready.html', '06stone_ready', 'width=445,height=600,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes') Dominic Buettner for The New York Times When David Jeselsohn bought an ancient tablet, above, he was unaware of its significance. If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time. The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era - in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone. It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate. Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase. Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day. "Some Christians will find it shocking - a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology - while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism," Mr. Boyarin said. Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet's contribution is fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning. The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus. How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes, also will be discussed. Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in the coming months. "I couldn't make much out of it when I got it," said David Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. "I didn't realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed. 'You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,' she told me." Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai. Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C. A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone's authenticity. It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed "Gabriel's Revelation," also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence from before Jesus. When he read "Gabriel's Revelation," he said, he believed he saw what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion. Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus' day as an important explanation of that era's messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on messianic overtones. In Mr. Knohl's interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone's passages were probably Simon's followers, Mr. Knohl contends. The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet - "In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice" - and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice. To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words "L'shloshet yamin," meaning "in three days." The next word of the line was deemed partially illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is "hayeh," or "live" in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era. Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, "In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you." To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says "Sar hasarin," or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of "a prince of princes," Mr. Knohl contends that the stone's writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days. He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David. "This should shake our basic view of Christianity," he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. "Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story." Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed likely that the key illegible word was "hayeh," or "live." Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure. Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from no later than the first century B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be published in the coming months. Regarding Mr. Knohl's thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious. "There is one problem," he said. "In crucial places of the text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl's tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing words." Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and books, "Gabriel's Revelation" and Mr. Knohl's analysis deserved serious attention. "Here we have a real stone with a real text," he said. "This is truly significant." Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day. But there was, he said, and "Gabriel's Revelation" shows it. "His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come," Mr. Knohl said. "This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel." _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/29b299fc/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jul 6 07:12:22 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:12:22 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the...] Message-ID: <4870B6A6.9030101@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/eddfbda0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:56:32 EDT Size: 7727 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/eddfbda0/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jul 6 07:32:06 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:32:06 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection] Message-ID: <4870BB46.8040707@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/cd5970c4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:11:10 -0400 Size: 54224 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/cd5970c4/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 07:45:27 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:45:27 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Message-ID: Boker tov James, Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made several excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' variations of Halachic practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote the terms 'traditional and normative,' I was referring only to the modern era - today. There's no telling what I would have been like (or believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) Maybe I would have followed the path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew of 'Enoch,' for those not following the 'inside joke' here)!! There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish groups) now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is really not the forum for me to have brought this up in, and I should have just sent a private note to my dear achi (brother), Joe; but....I didn't..... The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews learn about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) throughout the world. Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but I would just point out that I do not believe that there is a "messianic faction" within the movement. Only those who are open about it, and those who do not speak to 'outsiders' about those beliefs. But, this really isn't the forum for me to have brought this up. Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! B'Ahava, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/61dd99e7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 07:54:34 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:54:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Message-ID: Hey Marvin - Although the article is indeed interesting - I HIGHLY recommend reading Professor Knohl's book: The Messiah before Jesus; The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls It is a short book, but is full of information and insight and is very well written. In one of those, 'I can't believe this coincidence' sort of thing, I just finished the book on Shabbat; only to later read the article (which I forwarded to the list), from the New York Times! Your comments about ear wax flying is an understatement of people's potential reactions!! :-) We are living in very interesting times, my friend..... Best regards, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/f16bcdf3/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 08:00:24 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:00:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3AD3F0-5D86-43C4-A25C-1B384BDBDF48@earthlink.net> Hanoch and all, I actually think it is a very interesting discussion and one that fits Dialogue and its purposes very well. I think Ross would agree. Many scholars in my field have commented that what Chabad is going through gives us great sociological insights in terms of group dynamics "when prophecy fails," that help us to understand what happened in those first 20 years after the death of the Nazarene, before Paul came along and transferred things to the heavenly realms. BTW, I have an article/paper on my university Web site that might be relevant to this, though it deals more with Qumran/DSS, titled "Dead Messiahs Who Don't Return." Kind of blunt but it makes the point I think. http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/deadmessiahs.html Yes, the little snail we found has great significance because it is IN Jerusalem, at 2nd Temple levels, which we are right over now, in an area of the city we have to assume the priests lived. We are right in the area where the HP Caiaphus was reputed to live. Who knows, maybe we are right over his house! The two traditional sites, St Peter of Gallicantu (Church of the Cock Crowing) and the Caiaphus house in the Armenian quarter really do not fit the descriptions we have from early Christian pilgrims as to location. Gallicantu is right across the modern road from our site, but in my view too low into the valley. I think the HP's house would need a view of the Temple. Likewise, the palatial mansion in the Jewish Quarter, that Pixner identified as that of Caiaphus, would not be able to even see the Temple--it is just by the Burnt House. I think in a few weeks, but certainly by next summer season, we will have our own "burnt house," or probably burnt houses. Ours is an amazing site. Have a good week! James On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:45 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > Boker tov James, > > Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made > several excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' variations > of Halachic practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote the terms > 'traditional and normative,' I was referring only to the modern era > - today. There's no telling what I would have been like (or > believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) Maybe I would have followed the > path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew of 'Enoch,' for those > not following the 'inside joke' here)!! > > There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish > groups) now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is > really not the forum for me to have brought this up in, and I should > have just sent a private note to my dear achi (brother), Joe; > but....I didn't..... > > The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews > learn about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) throughout > the world. Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but I would just > point out that I do not believe that there is a "messianic faction" > within the movement. Only those who are open about it, and those > who do not speak to 'outsiders' about those beliefs. But, this > really isn't the forum for me to have brought this up. > > Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! > > B'Ahava, > Hanoch > > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/f117ba5e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 08:02:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:02:47 EDT Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubav... Message-ID: Shalom Joe, You are absolutely correct when you state that the further back you go in Jewish history, the Rabbanim and Sages are far more 'messianic' then in modern times (although in Israel today there is a strong move toward 'messianism' among the National Religious element of society, without a doubt). And you are also correct when you pointed out that these are indeed, legitimate Jewish sources (even the ones I disagree with, for a variety of reasons) - I should have just let it be, instead of writing what I did, when I did. Hey - I never knew Rav Chaim Vital came from Sicily! Have a laila tov achi, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/b785f3c3/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 08:12:36 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:12:36 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection In-Reply-To: <00a001c8df61$6247bef0$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <00a001c8df61$6247bef0$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Messianic speculations of all ages, ours and theirs, are endlessly fascinating--particularly in late 2nd Temple times, and after all, I make my living teaching this stuff! Seems to have been the "heyday of apocalyptic," as I tell my students. However, on a more personal, biblical level, I am much more interested in what the Tanakh says about the Messiah(s). There one finds a stark contrast with what has only to be called an "overemphasis" on the Moshiach over the Moshia' Isa 43:11 I am YHVH, and besides me there is no Savior (Moshia') See Isaiah 49:26; 60:16; Hosea 13:4, etc. Seem two things people want most, the human king and the temple, were both accommodations to the ideal expressed constantly in the Torah and Prophets, the "marriage" covenant between YHVH and his people. There might be other treatments of this but so far as I know the discussion I offer of this issue (Messiahs & YHVH as Savior) in my revised book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith puts it all together in a really tight fashion with minimum of commentary, just text after text. The effect is enormous...Book should be out by the end of the month! See genesis2000.org for details. Best, James Tabor On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:11 AM, mhyde wrote: > > > Hanoch, Joe and others, > > > > Interesting article thanks for sharing. If you guys and gals > remember a few weeks / months ago Dr. Tabor lead us to the article > about the ?Three days and Live? paper that was done by Israel > Knohl. (found it. I?m knee deep in papers and books. One of these > days I will have to get organized. But, then that will take time > away form my reading and studyJ) May 18,2008 Suffering Messiahs > and resurrection after Three Days, filed under Christians Orgins, > Dr. Tabors website. Great article and you should also find a link > to the ?By three days live? text. About the time Dr. Tabor shared > this with us I was just starting Israel Knohl?s book ?The Messiah > before Jesus?. Talking about ?opening eyes, and getting wax out > of ears? this one should be read. John C. in the last few days > shared the 1Chro. 22:6-10 text, showing us that Solomon was a / the > ?Son of God?. Most interesting. > > In this discussion of Moshiach , I personally have went form one > extreme to the other in the last twenty years. But I?m beginning to > think and entertain that Moshiach, regardless of who he is , Moses, > Daniel, Elijah, John the Immerser, Jesus the son of Joseph, the > Rebbe to the Luv. Chahab or even our own dear Hanoch or any other > host of candidates will have to be a person who has pasted to a > higher level then we humans are living on. When God built this > planet and creation for us the Sons and Daughters of Adam he created > one door to enter and one door to exit for his human creation. The > entrance is the womb, the exit is death the grave. No other way in > or out! But we know of one other way, referred to as Jacob?s latter > (a door for spiritual beings / creatures of a different order then > we humans are). This door swings both in and out, they come in > and they pass back out. Also, we have the door of resurrection, > which seems to only open one way. ( IN ). The door of > resurrection seems to deal with dead people (humans) coming back to > life. For Paul, this was a big / major part of his theology?.. > not only for his Messiah(Jesus) but also, for all those who had > faith / hope in Messiah. I wonder??? did Paul, know about this > text of the ?three days and live?, did Paul understand the idea > expressed in the Talmud / teachings / Torah about the > resurrection? Did Paul understand Israel?s Knohl?s thesis about > ?The Messiah before Jesus? ? Regardless of Paul being correct in > his choice of who Messiah is / was, had Paul been to Qumran and > studied the text / teaching of that sect.? We get lost in the > Moshiach discussion when we want to put a face on the subject, > Habakkuk 2:3 The vision is for an appointed time?? though it > tarries, wait for it,???.. it will surely come??.. > > Hanoch, Quoting the article you sent????.. > > ?Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the > messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a > savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept > at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes > numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say > such predictions must have been written in by later followers > because there was no such idea present in his day. > > But there was, he said, and ?Gabriel?s Revelation? shows it. > > ?His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to > suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,? Mr. > Knohl said. ?This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the > conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an > absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of > people but to bring redemption to Israel.? ? > > Just something to toss out to create ripples in the water??.. If > in the future Messiah comes and it turns out to be Jesus of the > fist century, (through the door of resurrection) and just as the > christian world view are about to bow the knee, Jesus informs > them?.. I died and shed my blood not for the sins of the people > but to bring redemption to Israel?? better duck?? ear wax will be > flying like bullets and eye lids will be peeled back like doing 75 > foot swan dives into the water. > > Shalom, > > marvin > > > > > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com > Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:18 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection > > Shavua tov L'Kulchem - > > VERY interesting...make sure not to miss the last line.... > Hanoch > > Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection > By ETHAN BRONNER > Published: July 6, 2008 > JERUSALEM ? A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that > scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of > Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological > circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise > from the dead after three days. > > > Dominic Buettner for The New York Times > When David Jeselsohn bought an ancient tablet, above, he was unaware > of its significance. > > If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute > to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of > Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and > resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish > tradition at the time. > > The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to > some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with > ink writings from that era ? in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone. > > It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to > columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is > faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate. > > Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role > in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the > devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems > likely to increase. > > Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of > California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing > body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood > through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day. > > ?Some Christians will find it shocking ? a challenge to the > uniqueness of their theology ? while others will be comforted by the > idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,? Mr. Boyarin said. > > Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era > artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the > fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as > the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some > time before the tablet?s contribution is fully assessed. It has been > around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they > continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors > and meaning. > > The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, > contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings > from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key > books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and > beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus. > > How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about > the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that > arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a > monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years > since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the > Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over > whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic > scholar believes, also will be discussed. > > Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a > decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an > Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an > Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a > paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate > of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published > in the coming months. > > ?I couldn?t make much out of it when I got it,? said David > Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. ?I > didn?t realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada > Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was > overwhelmed. ?You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,? she told me.? > > Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the > angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets > Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai. > > Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is > an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who > died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the > stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly > devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, > based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated > from the late first century B.C. > > A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at > Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient > artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined > to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that > he knew of no reason to doubt the stone?s authenticity. > > It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of > Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the > stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed ?Gabriel?s > Revelation,? also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a > book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, > using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well > as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of > Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual > evidence from before Jesus. > > When he read ?Gabriel?s Revelation,? he said, he believed he saw > what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his > argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion. > > Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the > political atmosphere in Jesus? day as an important explanation of > that era?s messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, > Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported > monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could > take on messianic overtones. > > In Mr. Knohl?s interpretation, the specific messianic figure > embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a > commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century > historian Josephus. The writers of the stone?s passages were > probably Simon?s followers, Mr. Knohl contends. > > The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen > as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to > lines 19 through 21 of the tablet ? ?In three days you will know > that evil will be defeated by justice? ? and other lines that speak > of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice. > > To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl > focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words > ?L?shloshet yamin,? meaning ?in three days.? The next word of the > line was deemed partially illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, > but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and > Talmud, says the word is ?hayeh,? or ?live? in the imperative. It > has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era. > > Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he > believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line > reads, ?In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you.? > > To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says ?Sar hasarin,? > or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary > sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of ?a prince of > princes,? Mr. Knohl contends that the stone?s writings are about the > death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days. > > He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from > the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful > descendant of King David. > > ?This should shake our basic view of Christianity,? he said as he > sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where > he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman > Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. ?Resurrection > after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs > contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New > Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier > messiah story.? > > Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered > it indeed likely that the key illegible word was ?hayeh,? or ?live.? > Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is > less sure. > > Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language > and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew > University, said he spent a long time studying the text and > considered it authentic, dating from no later than the first century > B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be published in the coming > months. > > Regarding Mr. Knohl?s thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but > cautious. ?There is one problem,? he said. ?In crucial places of the > text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl?s tendency to find > there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial > lines of text there are a lot of missing words.? > > Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said > that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores > of articles and books, ?Gabriel?s Revelation? and Mr. Knohl?s > analysis deserved serious attention. ?Here we have a real stone with > a real text,? he said. ?This is truly significant.? > > Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the > messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a > savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept > at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes > numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say > such predictions must have been written in by later followers > because there was no such idea present in his day. > > But there was, he said, and ?Gabriel?s Revelation? shows it. > > ?His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to > suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,? Mr. > Knohl said. ?This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the > conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an > absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of > people but to bring redemption to Israel.? > > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/35c672fa/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 08:22:49 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:22:49 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Message-ID: Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a few things in such an open debate. Take care my friend Clyde **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/74a88034/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:00:24 -0400 Size: 11706 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/74a88034/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 08:31:40 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:31:40 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Thank you, Hero" Message-ID: Thank You, Hero: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Thank_You3_Hero.asp (http://www.aish.com/) See this article online: _http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Thank_You3_Hero.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Thank_You3_Hero.asp) _by Uri Orbach_ (http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Uri+Orbach&title_text=&date_amount=&date_option=year) Wednesday's hero helped us realize that education to valor is not some kind of old-fashioned luxury, but rather, it's a necessity of life. On Wednesday we had a chance to see a hero. What is heroism? A pure moment where education, ideals, and mental preparation come together and prompt a person to knowingly risk his life without considering personal benefit. Wednesday's hero was educated in a family and in a community that does not tell its sons "the most important thing is to protect yourself" when they join the army, but rather, "the most important thing is that you protect your people." The professional ability, the resourcefulness, and the level-headedness are merely a marginal addition to the bravery and aspiration for victory. This soldier, riding his bike in the face of a rampaging bulldozer, decided that he is going to stop the terrorist. The immediate decision to get on the bulldozer, empty handed, is what distinguishes a hero from any other person, a civilian who takes responsibility from police officers who scratch their head or fire shots in the air, mostly in order to calm themselves. Yet this young man, whom all of us saw getting on the bulldozer, pulling out the security guard's gun, and shooting the terrorist was given the run around by IDF authorities up until recently, until they agreed to let him join the army. When he was a high school student, he misbehaved at some protest during the disengagement, and our army sages debated whether to recruit him, even though he did not agree to apologize for his acts in his meeting with a mental health officer. As if we have a surplus of young men like him. It is difficult to educate someone to heroism. It is easier to educate people to show helplessness, to learn legal procedures, and to focus on the rights of the terrorist and his family. Yet it is possible to educate young people in an environment that conveys to them that some things are more important than their own life. We can and should educate young people that when the moment of truth arrives we must defeat the rampaging enemy rather than step back and wait for someone else to do the job. We need to encourage and promote the schools and communities where the phrases "People of Israel" and "Land of Israel" are uttered without disparagement. Wednesday's soldier helped us realize that education to valor is not some kind of old-fashioned luxury, but rather, it's a necessity of life ? even when you're riding your bicycle, on leave from the army. Thank you, hero. This article originally appeared on _ynetnews.com._ (http://www.ynetnews.com/) This article can also be read at: _http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Thank_You3_Hero.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Thank_You3_Hero.asp) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/240f093f/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jul 6 08:33:03 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:33:03 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection] Message-ID: <4870C98F.5080908@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/8b2850f6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:12:36 -0400 Size: 67693 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/8b2850f6/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jul 6 08:47:05 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:47:05 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] "Thank you, Hero"] Message-ID: <4870CCD9.6020008@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/02414fc4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] "Thank you, Hero" Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:31:40 EDT Size: 15815 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/02414fc4/attachment.eml From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 09:17:40 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:17:40 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Clyde, If you read any of the three academic articles to which I referred on my University Web site you will see they are dealing with broad sociological issues having to do with the dynamics of apocalyptic groups who lose their leader, and/or formulate views of prophecy that they then attempt to "enact," or the classic "when prophecy fails" syndrome. None of this has to do with any "open debate" on Paul or other Jesus related things, nor are these theological judgments. You can find some of the literature in the footnotes if you care to pursue it. These are well worn categories of discussion among anthropologists, historians, and sociologists of religion. My book on Paul will be out next year and even though my views are in print already in outline form, and in my dissertation, until then I would rather write more formally than carry on convoluted e-mail discussions. If you look back at all your posts on this subject a couple of months ago Clyde, pulling back, jumping in, and pulling back again, you will realize there are other complexities involved that go beyond the academic subject and I am not wanting to stir that pot again, especially on Ross's discussion list. Best, James On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:22 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. > We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring > false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of > prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about > that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate > the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us > about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but > you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the > fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing > Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a > few things in such an open debate. > > Take care my friend > > Clyde > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 6, 2008 9:00:24 AM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about > Chabad Lubavitch, the... > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Hanoch and all, > > I actually think it is a very interesting discussion and one that > fits Dialogue and its purposes very well. I think Ross would agree. > Many scholars in my field have commented that what Chabad is going > through gives us great sociological insights in terms of group > dynamics "when prophecy fails," that help us to understand what > happened in those first 20 years after the death of the Nazarene, > before Paul came along and transferred things to the heavenly realms. > > BTW, I have an article/paper on my university Web site that might be > relevant to this, though it deals more with Qumran/DSS, titled "Dead > Messiahs Who Don't Return." Kind of blunt but it makes the point I > think. > > http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/deadmessiahs.html > > Yes, the little snail we found has great significance because it is > IN Jerusalem, at 2nd Temple levels, which we are right over now, in > an area of the city we have to assume the priests lived. We are > right in the area where the HP Caiaphus was reputed to live. Who > knows, maybe we are right over his house! The two traditional sites, > St Peter of Gallicantu (Church of the Cock Crowing) and the Caiaphus > house in the Armenian quarter really do not fit the descriptions we > have from early Christian pilgrims as to location. Gallicantu is > right across the modern road from our site, but in my view too low > into the valley. I think the HP's house would need a view of the > Temple. Likewise, the palatial mansion in the Jewish Quarter, that > Pixner identified as that of Caiaphus, would not be able to even see > the Temple--it is just by the Burnt House. I think in a few weeks, > but certainly by next summer season, we will have our own "burnt > house," or probably burnt houses. Ours is an amazing site. > > Have a good week! > > James > > > On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:45 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > >> Boker tov James, >> >> Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made >> several excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' >> variations of Halachic practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote >> the terms 'traditional and normative,' I was referring only to the >> modern era - today. There's no telling what I would have been like >> (or believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) Maybe I would have followed >> the path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew of 'Enoch,' for >> those not following the 'inside joke' here)!! >> >> There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish >> groups) now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is >> really not the forum for me to have brought this up in, and I >> should have just sent a private note to my dear achi (brother), >> Joe; but....I didn't..... >> >> The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews >> learn about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) >> throughout the world. Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but I >> would just point out that I do not believe that there is a >> "messianic faction" within the movement. Only those who are open >> about it, and those who do not speak to 'outsiders' about those >> beliefs. But, this really isn't the forum for me to have brought >> this up. >> >> Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! >> >> B'Ahava, >> Hanoch >> >> >> >> >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel- >> efficientused cars. >> _______________________________________________ > > = _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/d074aa3a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 10:10:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:10:46 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The anatomy of a massacre Message-ID: Column One: Anatomy of a massacre Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST July 4, 2008 Government and police spokesmen would have us believe that the carnage in Jerusalem on Wednesday was unavoidable. Husam Taysir Dwayat, the convicted rapist, burglar and drug dealer turned jihadist who mowed down innocent people with his bulldozer on Jaffa Road was not suspected of links to terrorist organizations. The sociopathic, violent criminal who had "returned" to Islam over the past month raised no red flags. There was nothing to be done. No one is to blame. If the protestations of the government and the police that nothing could have prevented Dwayat from using his bulldozer to murder three people sound familiar, it is because they are. Immediately after Ala Abu Dhaim entered into Mercaz Harav yeshiva on March 6 and massacred eight students, government and police spokesmen said the same thing. There was no way to prevent the attack. No one is to blame. These statements are no more than easy excuses for incompetence. While it may be true that neither Dwayat nor Dhaim were members of a terror group, it is certainly true that both of these Jerusalemite terrorists operated in an atmosphere that engenders both radicalism and lawlessness. Their decisions to murder innocent people were products not only of their own evil natures, but of an atmosphere of permissiveness that naturally intensifies any latent desire to cause death and mayhem. If they had been operating in a different environment, it is possible they would have behaved differently. Four months ago, Dhaim was able to enter Mercaz Harav by dint of his job as a driver for the Jerusalem Arab-owned transport company HaPnina. HaPnina had a city contract to transport school children. Dhaim, who arrived at the yeshiva in a company van, aroused no suspicion when he entered the yeshiva with a large box where he hid his rifle. After Dhaim committed his massacre, the municipality immediately tried to abrogate its contract with HaPnina. HaPnina sued and the Jerusalem Magistrate's Court issued a temporary injunction requiring the city to continue using HaPnina until the judge ruled on the case. When Judge Hagit Mack-Kalmanovich finally decided in the municipality's favor on June 13, she noted that that the company had ignored a court order to provide documentation showing that its drivers had no criminal records and were qualified to transport children. If the municipality were more vigilant in overseeing its contractors, it could have discovered that HaPnina was employing criminals well before the massacre. Perhaps then Dhaim wouldn't have been able to enter the yeshiva. It is a criminal offense to praise acts of murder. When hundreds came to pay their respects for Dhaim and proclaim him a hero, the police could have arrested and interrogated all of them. Among those who arrived at the Dhaim's mourning tent was Wednesday's terrorist, Dwayat. If he had been arrested then, it is possible that police would have discovered that this convicted rapist had recently become a jihadist. It is also possible that Dwayat himself would have been intimidated. But rather than enforce the law, the police did nothing. Rather than arrest the hundreds who came to praise Dhaim, the police excused their inaction by bemoaning the fact that the due process rights of Jerusalem Arabs made it impossible to destroy the homes of Arab terrorists in the capital without proper legal authorization. That is, they justified their decision to do nothing by complaining that they can't do everything. The police's permissive behavior is nothing new. In Dhaim's and Dwayat's Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem, as in the Beduin settlements in the Negev and the Arab cities and villages in the Galilee, the police simply refuse to enforce the law. They do not patrol the streets. They do not arrest religious, educational and political leaders who solicit terrorism or incite hatred. They do not enforce building laws. They do not protect state and privately owned land from squatters. Today some 90 percent of Arab construction in Israel is carried out without permits. Whole towns in the Negev have been built on stolen state land. And the police do nothing. As a consequence of police inaction, thieves, smugglers, terror solicitors and other dangerous criminals are allowed to operate in the open. Fearing the wrath of human rights groups on the one hand and Arab rioters on the other, the police simply do not enforce Israeli law in the Arab sector. This police passivity manifests itself not only in times of relative calm but also in emergency situations. For instance, at both Mercaz Harav and on Jaffa Road, the police were inexcusably passive. In both attacks the terrorists were only stopped by citizens who took the initiative when the police failed to act. On Wednesday Dwayat killed two motorists and overturned a truck before a policeman and a security guard climbed into the cab of his bulldozer. And then, instead of shooting him, the policeman simply tried to restrain him. Due to the police's refusal to shoot, Dwayat killed 33-year-old Batsheva Unterman while the policeman was standing next to him in the bulldozer's cab. It was only the intervention of "M.," an unarmed IDF commando soldier on furlough, that ended the carnage. M. climbed onto the bulldozer, took the security guard's gun and shot Dwayat in the head three times. Another policeman only shot Dwayat after M. had already killed him. At Mercaz Harav, it took the police some 20 minutes to show up in force. Until then, only one police officer was at the scene. And as he heard the anguished cries of teenagers being murdered, he opted not to go in and protect them. He stood outside and did nothing. Dhaim was only stopped when yeshiva student Moshe Dadon and furloughed paratrooper Capt. David Shapira killed him. As luck or providence would have it, Shapira is M.'s brother-in-law. In failing to act against Arab Israeli lawlessness and the terror it engenders, the police are little different from the government. Like the police, the government turns a blind eye to the radicalization and lawlessness of Arab Israeli society. And when the unchallenged lawless and jihadist atmosphere leads inevitably to massacre, the government talks of how its hands are tied and makes angry, tough declarations not backed by policy. Then it quickly moves to change the subject. The government's refusal to form a coherent policy regarding the deteriorating situation in Israeli-Arab society was exposed at the Knesset on Wednesday. There, just as Dwayat was on his killing spree, the Knesset was scheduled to vote on two bills written by opposition lawmakers after the Mercaz Harav massacre. If passed, the bills will allow the government to revoke the citizenship of terrorists and their family members and prohibit the families of dead terrorists from publicly celebrating their actions. The government's Ministerial Committee on Legislation voted to oppose the bills some weeks ago. It only changed its mind in light of the massacre on Jaffa Road. As opposition leader and Likud Chairman Binyamin Netanyahu noted on Thursday morning in an interview with Israel Radio, the government's support of the bills was pure political opportunism. The sudden change in its position made clear that the government has no policies, only postures. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak reacted to Wednesday's attack by loudly proclaiming their support for destroying Dwayat's home. But as Netanyahu noted, they are policy-makers, not spokesmen. Their job is to act, not to declaim about their preferences. And yet, making loud, crowd pleasing declarations is the only policy the government has for dealing with anything. Both Barak and Olmert know that in sovereign Israel it is legally impossible to simply destroy a house without due process. Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz is still trying to work out how to legally destroy Dhaim's home four months after he attacked. If Barak and Olmert really were interested in destroying terrorists' homes, they could pass a law explicitly empowering the government to do so. While the police could end the atmosphere of lawlessness by enforcing the laws already on the books, the government can take positive steps to reverse the trends toward radicalization of Israeli Arab society. It can pass regulations barring anti-Zionist propaganda in public school curricula and sanctioning the immediate firing of public school teachers who teach students to hate Israel. It can suspend government funding of municipalities and local councils that do not enforce building codes. It can set up well-paid community police comprised of loyal citizens. The government can prosecute Arab politicians and leaders who treat with the enemy for treason. But not only is the government doing none of these things, it is taking active steps to legitimize Israeli-Arab rejection of the State of Israel. So it is that far from barring the study of the myth of the so-called Nakba, or catastrophe of Israel's birth, in Arab schools, Education Minister Yuli Tamir is encouraging Israeli Jewish schools to teach the lie to their Jewish students. Rather than take action against Arab leaders who actively work to radicalize Israeli-Arab society and solicit terrorism, the government bends over backwards to appease these leaders in the name of multicultural pluralism. The government has not sufficed with seeking to appease Arab radicals by embracing their anti-Israeli propaganda as legitimate. It is also actively working to marginalize the sectors of Israeli society that support policies aimed at reversing the trend of Arab radicalization. M., the hero of Wednesday's attack, is case in point. M., a clearly motivated, resourceful and brave soldier, is 20 years old. At his age, he should have already been in the army for nearly two years. But he was only drafted four months ago. It turns out that the IDF didn't want him. Even as IDF commanders bemoan the dwindling draft rolls as more and more young men and women evade military service, the IDF fought for two years to keep M. out of its ranks. The IDF opposed M.'s service because in 2005 he was arrested for protesting against the withdrawal from Gaza. Charges were never filed against him. But the mere fact that he was arrested for opposing one of the stupidest and most disastrous government policies the IDF has ever implemented was sufficient to make him politically suspect. Then, too, by Thursday morning, unnamed government sources were warning that "right-wing extremists" were planning to start attacking Jerusalem Arab neighborhoods. It is far easier to attack imaginary enemies than to face real ones. It is possible that both Dhaim and Dwayat couldn't have been stopped. But it is certainly true that given the environment of lawlessness and governmental flaccidity in which they operated, there were no countervailing forces in their lives that might have led these evil men to have second thoughts about murdering innocent Israelis in the name of Allah. Political bluster will not prevent the next attack. There are policies that Israel can enact today that will make the option of mass murder less attractive to its Arab citizenry. But as Barak, Olmert and their colleagues have made clear, nothing will happen under the current government. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/5348ce34/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 10:49:40 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:49:40 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Message-ID: But James, when you make statements that others disagree with on a public dialogue or in print elsewhere you must expect to be confronted as myself or anyone else. Is it you do not believe in a resurrection, or is it you just don't believe;Yeshua was raised from the dead by G-D? Did I misunderstand when you state although your article was dealing with the DSS community that your point in dead messiah's don't return, you were also relating that to Yeshua? I'm trying to understand your agenda. Is it to destroy the NT or fix it? What do you observe that is correct in the gospels and letters? I don't mean to be unkind but you leave things hanging and it is difficult to figure out just what you are hoping to accomplish in terms or reaching the lost sheep of the house of Israel? In the Dell Griffon paper sent to you, Hanoch and me, Dell said you made the public statement that Yeshua was a myth as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Is this true, and is this how you view Yehsua? I do not wish to be unkind nor lose you as a friend, but I would like to know where you stand on this? Is it your purpose to teach Yeshua as a myth, his resurrection as a myth? You certainly have the right to say anything you wish, I'm just trying to understand what you believe and why you believe it. Clyde **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/96325e99/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:17:40 -0400 Size: 19771 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/96325e99/attachment.mht From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 11:49:32 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 12:49:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78759EB9-0B08-43D7-96CB-4A04F9A7A6D7@earthlink.net> I won't dignify this with an answer and anyone who knows the years I have worked on the historical Jesus knows I would never make such a statement. If Dell says this he is spreading lies and slander. I am not interested in these discussions with you Clyde and I won't air the reasons in this forum but past posts you have put up tell the story. James On Jul 6, 2008, at 11:49 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > > But James, when you make statements that others disagree with on a > public dialogue or in print elsewhere you must expect to be > confronted as myself or anyone else. Is it you do not believe in a > resurrection, or is it you just don't believe;Yeshua was raised from > the dead by G-D? Did I misunderstand when you state although your > article was dealing with the DSS community that your point in dead > messiah's don't return, you were also relating that to Yeshua? I'm > trying to understand your agenda. Is it to destroy the NT or fix it? > What do you observe that is correct in the gospels and letters? I > don't mean to be unkind but you leave things hanging and it is > difficult to figure out just what you are hoping to accomplish in > terms or reaching the lost sheep of the house of Israel? In the > Dell Griffon paper sent to you, Hanoch and me, Dell said you made > the public statement that Yeshua was a myth as Santa Clause and the > Easter Bunny. Is this true, and is this how you view Yehsua? I do > not wish to be unkind nor lose you as a friend, but I would like to > know where you stand on this? Is it your purpose to teach Yeshua as > a myth, his resurrection as a myth? You certainly have the right to > say anything you wish, I'm just trying to understand what you > believe and why you believe it. > > Clyde > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 6, 2008 10:17:40 AM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about > Chabad Lubavitch, the... > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Clyde, > > If you read any of the three academic articles to which I referred > on my University Web site you will see they are dealing with broad > sociological issues having to do with the dynamics of apocalyptic > groups who lose their leader, and/or formulate views of prophecy > that they then attempt to "enact," or the classic "when prophecy > fails" syndrome. None of this has to do with any "open debate" on > Paul or other Jesus related things, nor are these theological > judgments. You can find some of the literature in the footnotes if > you care to pursue it. These are well worn categories of discussion > among anthropologists, historians, and sociologists of religion. > > My book on Paul will be out next year and even though my views are > in print already in outline form, and in my dissertation, until then > I would rather write more formally than carry on convoluted e-mail > discussions. If you look back at all your posts on this subject a > couple of months ago Clyde, pulling back, jumping in, and pulling > back again, you will realize there are other complexities involved > that go beyond the academic subject and I am not wanting to stir > that pot again, especially on Ross's discussion list. > > Best, > > James > > > On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:22 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > >> Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. >> We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring >> false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of >> prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about >> that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate >> the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell >> us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, >> but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to >> the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not >> observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could >> both learn a few things in such an open debate. >> >> Take care my friend >> >> Clyde >> >> >> >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel- >> efficientused cars. >> >> From:James Tabor >> Date:July 6, 2008 9:00:24 AM EDT >> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject:Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about >> Chabad Lubavitch, the... >> Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> >> Hanoch and all, >> >> I actually think it is a very interesting discussion and one that >> fits Dialogue and its purposes very well. I think Ross would agree. >> Many scholars in my field have commented that what Chabad is going >> through gives us great sociological insights in terms of group >> dynamics "when prophecy fails," that help us to understand what >> happened in those first 20 years after the death of the Nazarene, >> before Paul came along and transferred things to the heavenly realms. >> >> BTW, I have an article/paper on my university Web site that might >> be relevant to this, though it deals more with Qumran/DSS, titled >> "Dead Messiahs Who Don't Return." Kind of blunt but it makes the >> point I think. >> >> http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/deadmessiahs.html >> >> Yes, the little snail we found has great significance because it is >> IN Jerusalem, at 2nd Temple levels, which we are right over now, in >> an area of the city we have to assume the priests lived. We are >> right in the area where the HP Caiaphus was reputed to live. Who >> knows, maybe we are right over his house! The two traditional >> sites, St Peter of Gallicantu (Church of the Cock Crowing) and the >> Caiaphus house in the Armenian quarter really do not fit the >> descriptions we have from early Christian pilgrims as to location. >> Gallicantu is right across the modern road from our site, but in my >> view too low into the valley. I think the HP's house would need a >> view of the Temple. Likewise, the palatial mansion in the Jewish >> Quarter, that Pixner identified as that of Caiaphus, would not be >> able to even see the Temple--it is just by the Burnt House. I think >> in a few weeks, but certainly by next summer season, we will have >> our own "burnt house," or probably burnt houses. Ours is an amazing >> site. >> >> Have a good week! >> >> James >> >> >> On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:45 AM,YoungBarzel at aol.comwrote: >> >>> Boker tov James, >>> >>> Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made >>> several excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' >>> variations of Halachic practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote >>> the terms 'traditional and normative,' I was referring only to the >>> modern era - today. There's no telling what I would have been like >>> (or believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) Maybe I would have followed >>> the path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew of 'Enoch,' for >>> those not following the 'inside joke' here)!! >>> >>> There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish >>> groups) now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is >>> really not the forum for me to have brought this up in, and I >>> should have just sent a private note to my dear achi (brother), >>> Joe; but....I didn't..... >>> >>> The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews >>> learn about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) >>> throughout the world. Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but >>> I would just point out that I do not believe that there is a >>> "messianic faction" within the movement. Only those who are open >>> about it, and those who do not speak to 'outsiders' about those >>> beliefs. But, this really isn't the forum for me to have brought >>> this up. >>> >>> Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! >>> >>> B'Ahava, >>> Hanoch >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel- >>> efficientused cars. >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> = _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > = _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/4cf24c7b/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 6 12:58:33 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <667347.99554.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Clyde, No one on this list has ever tried to destroy the NT, least of all Dr. Tabor. You can believe whatever you'd like. The point is that the NT has nothing to so with the TRUTH many of us have searched long and hard for. I disagree with those who stated that we came by way of Jesus to this Truth, so we have to respect it as a means to an end. Had we been Buddists and HaShem called us out according to our "hearts desparate search to fill a need for Him", we would still come to the place where we are as Torah believers. As far as Yeshua being a myth, he as a person, a Jew at that, was not a myth, but the CONCEPT of messiah which became attached to his name is a myth and a pagan concept at that. There is no God/Man concept in Torah nor prophecy thereof. If you are of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", you would be so drawn to what HaShem believes in, that you wouldn't have to debate the theories of man. Linda/Hadassah CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: But James, when you make statements that others disagree with on a public dialogue or in print elsewhere you must expect to be confronted as myself or anyone else. Is it you do not believe in a resurrection, or is it you just don't believe;Yeshua was raised from the dead by G-D? Did I misunderstand when you state although your article was dealing with the DSS community that your point in dead messiah's don't return, you were also relating that to Yeshua? I'm trying to understand your agenda. Is it to destroy the NT or fix it? What do you observe that is correct in the gospels and letters? I don't mean to be unkind but you leave things hanging and it is difficult to figure out just what you are hoping to accomplish in terms or reaching the lost sheep of the house of Israel? In the Dell Griffon paper sent to you, Hanoch and me, Dell said you made the public statement that Yeshua was a myth as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Is this true, and is this how you view Yehsua? I do not wish to be unkind nor lose you as a friend, but I would like to know where you stand on this? Is it your purpose to teach Yeshua as a myth, his resurrection as a myth? You certainly have the right to say anything you wish, I'm just trying to understand what you believe and why you believe it. Clyde --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:17:40 -0400 Clyde, If you read any of the three academic articles to which I referred on my University Web site you will see they are dealing with broad sociological issues having to do with the dynamics of apocalyptic groups who lose their leader, and/or formulate views of prophecy that they then attempt to "enact," or the classic "when prophecy fails" syndrome. None of this has to do with any "open debate" on Paul or other Jesus related things, nor are these theological judgments. You can find some of the literature in the footnotes if you care to pursue it. These are well worn categories of discussion among anthropologists, historians, and sociologists of religion. My book on Paul will be out next year and even though my views are in print already in outline form, and in my dissertation, until then I would rather write more formally than carry on convoluted e-mail discussions. If you look back at all your posts on this subject a couple of months ago Clyde, pulling back, jumping in, and pulling back again, you will realize there are other complexities involved that go beyond the academic subject and I am not wanting to stir that pot again, especially on Ross's discussion list. Best, James On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:22 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a few things in such an open debate. Take care my friend Clyde --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. From: James Tabor Date: July 6, 2008 9:00:24 AM EDT To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Hanoch and all, I actually think it is a very interesting discussion and one that fits Dialogue and its purposes very well. I think Ross would agree. Many scholars in my field have commented that what Chabad is going through gives us great sociological insights in terms of group dynamics "when prophecy fails," that help us to understand what happened in those first 20 years after the death of the Nazarene, before Paul came along and transferred things to the heavenly realms. BTW, I have an article/paper on my university Web site that might be relevant to this, though it deals more with Qumran/DSS, titled "Dead Messiahs Who Don't Return." Kind of blunt but it makes the point I think. http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/deadmessiahs.html Yes, the little snail we found has great significance because it is IN Jerusalem, at 2nd Temple levels, which we are right over now, in an area of the city we have to assume the priests lived. We are right in the area where the HP Caiaphus was reputed to live. Who knows, maybe we are right over his house! The two traditional sites, St Peter of Gallicantu (Church of the Cock Crowing) and the Caiaphus house in the Armenian quarter really do not fit the descriptions we have from early Christian pilgrims as to location. Gallicantu is right across the modern road from our site, but in my view too low into the valley. I think the HP's house would need a view of the Temple. Likewise, the palatial mansion in the Jewish Quarter, that Pixner identified as that of Caiaphus, would not be able to even see the Temple--it is just by the Burnt House. I think in a few weeks, but certainly by next summer season, we will have our own "burnt house," or probably burnt houses. Ours is an amazing site. Have a good week! James On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:45 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Boker tov James, Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made several excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' variations of Halachic practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote the terms 'traditional and normative,' I was referring only to the modern era - today. There's no telling what I would have been like (or believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) Maybe I would have followed the path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew of 'Enoch,' for those not following the 'inside joke' here)!! There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish groups) now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is really not the forum for me to have brought this up in, and I should have just sent a private note to my dear achi (brother), Joe; but....I didn't..... The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews learn about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) throughout the world. Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but I would just point out that I do not believe that there is a "messianic faction" within the movement. Only those who are open about it, and those who do not speak to 'outsiders' about those beliefs. But, this really isn't the forum for me to have brought this up. Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! B'Ahava, Hanoch --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficientused cars. _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/c39cb979/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 12:58:54 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <896842.55418.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Wow Y'all!!? Yall sho do knows how to use dhem dher big words in dhem dher big o cities... ? I wonda if any of y'all has ever saw or has ever heeard?dha Vois of dha Almighty, you kno - reeal lowd like or?seens or heeards dha voises of His angels, seean or heeard dha?livin Yeshua??? ur even seean wone of dhem dher devils Mee,?mi wife, and mi littl girl....has .... and We saws and heears that if we would ask dha Almighty likens a?babee kid?for dha holy spirit, he would give it....youins shud hav ben dher wen dhat was a hapenen... ? wel sirs....it just brings teears to myes eyes when I tink of dhese tings dhat hee does for simpling fokes likens too?us... ? kinda funny, huh... how guud nanner puddin is when yous tastes it.... ? now ifin sumbody tolds me dhat nanner puddin dint tast guud....i'd has to sae dhat yall mustn ne'er had no reeal nanner puddin...and mabe wees needs to bee givin youans ower resipee... ? anee hous i luvs youans and kant tawk mutch toodae caus dheh jus cum and tuk off mi wifs maw too dha hospitel, shees 80 and aint gona mak it mutch longgr. ? Trasee ? started nu buuk http://www.onhigh.org/ ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 7:02 AM As an historian I would, however, want to point out that during the late 2nd Temple period there was a rich and complex variety of "Judaisms," as now documented in all academic sources. The idea of a single "normative" Judaism, was probably never operative but the rabbis of the Mishnah and Talmud, with their basic system of interpretation, does seem to take root after 70 CE and the destruction of the Temple. But still, this stream, of the Pharisees, is one of several/many streams, from the Essene, to the Enochian, to the Sadducean, to the Nazarene--most of which died out or became very weak, but ALL of them would have said THEIR views and interpretations go back to Moses (or Enoch!). It should also be pointed out that of the "halachic" froms of Judaism today there are vast differences when it comes to matters "above and below, ahead and behind," that is areas of "religious speculations" about the future and the unseen world. Those who inhabit the mysticial/esoteric traditions, associated with the Kabbalah, are convinced they go back to the time of Adam, while the Ramban and other "rational" approaches would root these ideas in late antiquity early Middle Ages, as imports from forms of Hellenistic dualism and gnosticism. Given this diverse history the messianic views of a segment of Chabad hardly disqualifies them as a form of Judaism--and they are fairly orthopraxic in terms of halacha are they not?? James On Jul 6, 2008, at 4:56 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shalom Joe, ? ????One thing I need to jump in on - this is from a Chabad (Lubavitch) site....from those that believe that the Rebbe (May he rest in peace) was/is/will be, whatever, is the Mashiach.? Sorry, but although they use quotes from Jewish sources, their opinions are not considered, from where I sit.? The idea that a resurrected dead person can be Mashiach is NOT the view of normative, traditional Judaism, or the vast majority of Jewish sages throughout history.? The Rebbe isn't the Mashiach, and neither is Jesus/Yeshua - they are dead.? Once dead - you can't be the Mashiach...period. ? ?? Since the Rebbe's death, Chabad has become more cult-like in their approach to things like this - including the song they sing about the Rebbe, the, "...?King Messiah, from now and forever..."? It's not even 5:00am here, so let me stop here, since this really isn't the place for me to skewer Chabad; which as they say, is the religion today that is closest to Judaism.... ? ????Take care my friend, ????????????Hanoch Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/5b1a19e6/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Jul 6 13:11:18 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:11:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... References: Message-ID: <016601c8df93$affc1920$6400a8c0@davesbook> Clyde (and all else).... As I find this discussion interesting, I see no way to come to any conclusion. Does it really come down to what we each believe or not? My question is where is Waldo now? (Is he in my heart?....is he still flying up to "heaven"......right hand of God....resting with his fathers?). Understand, I am just a fellow human that is looking at the facts... Do we have time to try and figure this out? I say life is too short! It is enough to walk with God, follow his (simple) instructions, and seek Him with ALL our heart. Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. Ecc 12:13 ? Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. Please understand all....This dialogue list is a very important tool ,(for me), that can help us all to "see" different and opposing views concerning our collective and/or personal salvation. I mean no disrespect to any one on or off this list and I do not pretend to know the 'truth' in any of these matters that have been brought up concerning THE messiah. I ask for forgiveness up front (for jumping in) and pray that we can all continue to discuss these matters. As a side note, Ross will be speaking live tonight on the subject of Salvation, He has shared to us that this is a burden (in a good way) to him and that he (Ross) needs to "get it out" so to speak............see ya there! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a few things in such an open debate. Take care my friend Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/1c92dc7b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/1c92dc7b/attachment-0003.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 230 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/1c92dc7b/attachment-0004.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/1c92dc7b/attachment-0005.gif From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 13:32:07 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:32:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/9b0f03d8/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 6 13:54:51 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: <016601c8df93$affc1920$6400a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <733976.40543.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> It comes down to what we PROFESS to believe in . There is a principle here, concerning what TRUTH is about. I'm sticking up for Truth. I'm no Pinchas, but G-d bless his zeal, which HaShem greatly rewarded him for. Linda Dave Cole wrote: Clyde (and all else).... As I find this discussion interesting, I see no way to come to any conclusion. Does it really come down to what we each believe or not? My question is where is Waldo now? (Is he in my heart?....is he still flying up to "heaven"......right hand of God....resting with his fathers?). Understand, I am just a fellow human that is looking at the facts... Do we have time to try and figure this out? I say life is too short! It is enough to walk with God, follow his (simple) instructions, and seek Him with ALL our heart. Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. Ecc 12:13 ? Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. Please understand all....This dialogue list is a very important tool ,(for me), that can help us all to "see" different and opposing views concerning our collective and/or personal salvation. I mean no disrespect to any one on or off this list and I do not pretend to know the 'truth' in any of these matters that have been brought up concerning THE messiah. I ask for forgiveness up front (for jumping in) and pray that we can all continue to discuss these matters. As a side note, Ross will be speaking live tonight on the subject of Salvation, He has shared to us that this is a burden (in a good way) to him and that he (Ross) needs to "get it out" so to speak............see ya there! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a few things in such an open debate. Take care my friend Clyde --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/d939302a/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Jul 6 14:43:56 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:43:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources aboutChabadLubavitch, the... References: <733976.40543.qm@web83315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02b301c8dfa0$a12c8530$6400a8c0@davesbook> Hey Linda......you wrote "I'm sticking up for Truth".........I'm with ya!!!! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Rudolph Ricciardi To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources aboutChabadLubavitch, the... It comes down to what we PROFESS to believe in . There is a principle here, concerning what TRUTH is about. I'm sticking up for Truth. I'm no Pinchas, but G-d bless his zeal, which HaShem greatly rewarded him for. Linda Dave Cole wrote: Clyde (and all else).... As I find this discussion interesting, I see no way to come to any conclusion. Does it really come down to what we each believe or not? My question is where is Waldo now? (Is he in my heart?....is he still flying up to "heaven"......right hand of God....resting with his fathers?). Understand, I am just a fellow human that is looking at the facts... Do we have time to try and figure this out? I say life is too short! It is enough to walk with God, follow his (simple) instructions, and seek Him with ALL our heart. Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. Ecc 12:13 ? Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. Please understand all....This dialogue list is a very important tool ,(for me), that can help us all to "see" different and opposing views concerning our collective and/or personal salvation. I mean no disrespect to any one on or off this list and I do not pretend to know the 'truth' in any of these matters that have been brought up concerning THE messiah. I ask for forgiveness up front (for jumping in) and pray that we can all continue to discuss these matters. As a side note, Ross will be speaking live tonight on the subject of Salvation, He has shared to us that this is a burden (in a good way) to him and that he (Ross) needs to "get it out" so to speak............see ya there! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... Well now James, a dead messiah can return if after three days rise. We were not there so can we call these disciples devious or baring false witness? That is the question is it not? Besides a delay of prophecy is not the same thing as a failed prophecy. Think about that my friend. Unless we are prepared to take the time to debate the issue through, you might wish to be cautious in what you tell us about Paul. I have a very different view and we can discus both, but you must be willing to take the time to put each others feet to the fire and let those that sit by judge. You think I'm not observing Paul correctly and I think you are not. Maybe we could both learn a few things in such an open debate. Take care my friend Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/a4f745bc/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 14:46:06 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:46:06 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... Message-ID: Dave, thank you for commenting, sometimes right words at the right time keeps us in balance. Thank you for doing just that. Clyde. . **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/30a6bd29/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Dave Cole" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about ChabadLubavitch, the... Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:11:18 -0500 Size: 20625 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/30a6bd29/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 14:47:07 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 12:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/f79b21b7/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 6 15:09:23 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <121575.77874.qm@web83309.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm. The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION". Hello?! There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION". We are not here on this list to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will. We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is what you are missing. Nothing else matters. Nothing or no one else can save us. When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion, then HASHEM will do the rest. There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever said the Jews have it or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land. I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES. No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation. Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/174143cb/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 15:10:58 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 16:10:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim... It is not entirely clear to me how the United Israel will come about but Isaiah 11 seems to reflect some of the tensions that we experience and really can expect, coming from different backgrounds, experiences, and influences...If the text is sequential it sounds like, as Hulley has emphasized, the regathering comes with all the baggage and things get straightened out subsequently, not before, when both are to some degree "in the Land." When I am in Israel I sense that is the case with the diversity of Judah...nothing is resolved but only by being together in the "arena" does the process begin. James Tabor On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to > know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many > subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so > dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox > Jews > > > http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html > > > http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html > > > or kabala > > > http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html > > > or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional > Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative > Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... > > > From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it > is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore > legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - > Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. > > > Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru > conversion! > > However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was > through? > > > > But I hope and pray for us daily, > > > Tracy > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: > > From: Pat Robbins > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM > > Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not > realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved > teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, > they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - > even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of > underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes > this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by > their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass- > ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old > rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as > "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: > > > "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, > Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach > in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 > > > "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks > are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores > are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 > > > "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they > together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 > > > "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of > Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is > 11:13 > > > "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the > fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the > rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 > > > "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden > under feet...." Is 28:3 > > > "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. > Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the > spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known > the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 > > > "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not > return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim > also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 > > > "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." > Hos 9:11 > > > "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 > > > "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in > thy way..." Hos 10:13 > > > "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with > deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy > ones." Hos 12:1-2 > > > "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for > myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that > were sin." Hos 12:9 > > > It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say > concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s > on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com > > For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning > adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search > engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." > > While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son > was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is > very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents > being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their > children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his > disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for > leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, > well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d- > fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" > and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us > the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through > Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as > well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong > families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to > be a light unto all the nations of the earth. > > Avigail/Pat > > > > > From: YoungBarzel at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' > > Shalom v'boker tov - > > I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off- > base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the > situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better > suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys > like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. > > The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I > am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. > Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in > Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so > then anyone on this list. > > However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and > will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering > it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the > other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your > enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... > > And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There > are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while > partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how > the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and > all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, > insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal > Torah observance. > > Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to > Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want > people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a > "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just > seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus > glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. > > Just some venting at 5:15am.... > > Hanoch > > > > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient > used cars. > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/b2c7a64c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 6 15:08:46 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 20:08:46 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <809662909-1215375479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-454648997-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Well, I'm not really sure I'm following the underlying sentiments being professed in this discussion. At least I hope I'm not. But it seems we are beginning to take some broad swipes at folks by way of labels. This is why I hate labels so much. It seems that everyone wants to put everyone else in a nice neat cubby hole defined by the "well known" characteristics of that cubby hole so that they can easily dismiss whatever they have to say that doesn't agree with what they happen to think. So, let me describe my cubby hole where, as far as I know, I reside by myself. I do subscribe to a great many of those ideas that have been attributed to "Ephraimites" as described in our group. I do consider the words of Yeshua as recorded in what is called the NT to be of great value. When comparing what he said (as recorded) with the Tanach I hear Moshe, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial and many other authors of the Tanach (as recorded). Notice that approach is not "bass-akwards". I do consider what he had to say as least as important as what the Ramban or Rashi had to say but I honestly believe he was more on a par with the Prophets I mentioned and I do think a careful examination of his words (as recorded) reveals essentially the same message they brought, just a different era. I do think his message has been greatly distorted by the "church" and that includes some of his closest followers but that does not give me cause to dismiss him or his message. In my opinion the jury is still out on the Messiah issue. Until just recently I have heard nothing substantial on this subject even though I have brought up some fundamental questions several times in the past. I'm not convinced that anyone on this list (including myself) has a truly accurate historical perspective on what Messiah is supposed to be, let alone who. With all due respect (and I mean that deeply and sincerely) to my Jewish brothers and sisters, I have no desire to become Jewish at all. At this point in my life I can see no significant benefit to doing so, any more than becoming say, Presbyterian. The destination for my journey is the truth of HaShem which I believe lies in Torah. I do not believe I need to become Jewish or Christian or anything else to seek and follow thhat truth. I am convinced that that part of the journey defies all labels. So my good friends, let us be careful about swinging that sword of self-rightrousness around lest when we put it down we find that we have become the thing we hate. I am certain that HaShem sees the sword of righteousness as very different from the sword of self-righteousness. And let me be clear here, I am not referring in any way to the situation in Israel here, only this discussion. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Pat Robbins" Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:32:07 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' _______________________________________________ From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 15:19:04 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45457.92464.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thank you James. That is very well stated. So, I hope that we can all stay in the arena. I am an Israelite and so are y'all. We will work it out I hope. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:10 PM The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim... It is not entirely clear to me how the United Israel will come about but Isaiah 11 seems to reflect some of the tensions that we experience and really can expect, coming from different backgrounds, experiences, and influences...If the text is sequential it sounds like, as Hulley has emphasized, the regathering comes with all the baggage and things get straightened out subsequently, not before, when both are to some degree "in the Land." When I am in Israel I sense that is the case with the diversity of Judah...nothing is resolved but only by being together in the "arena" does the process begin.? James Tabor On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/7b830363/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 15:28:32 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <121575.77874.qm@web83309.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <111031.20307.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Linda, ? I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. ? But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! ? The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm.? The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION".? Hello?!? There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION".? We are not here on this list?to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will.? We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.? That is what you are missing.? Nothing else matters.? Nothing or no one else can save us.? When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion,? then HASHEM will do the rest.? There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever?said the Jews have it?or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who?seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land.? I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES.? No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ?ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation.? Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/4373d625/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Jul 6 15:41:52 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:41:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' References: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001901c8dfa8$baa22f30$6400a8c0@davesbook> Yes James... This "beginning process" is also demonstrated by 'our' yearly conferences. Face to face....in the moment. And hopefully for those chosen, "in the land". Hope to see yall at Succoth dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, And they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not vex Ephraim... It is not entirely clear to me how the United Israel will come about but Isaiah 11 seems to reflect some of the tensions that we experience and really can expect, coming from different backgrounds, experiences, and influences...If the text is sequential it sounds like, as Hulley has emphasized, the regathering comes with all the baggage and things get straightened out subsequently, not before, when both are to some degree "in the Land." When I am in Israel I sense that is the case with the diversity of Judah...nothing is resolved but only by being together in the "arena" does the process begin. James Tabor On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch -------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/abc3e1c1/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 6 15:56:51 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <111031.20307.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16791.41797.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Tracy, I can't speak for others, but I am not treating you as you think. And "holier than thou" is a wrong perception of us who don't want to talk about Yeshua and the NT on the UI list. We care very deeply about "souls" and pray that you will all be "set free", because "set free you are not when you have to quote Yeshua and the NT, and debate with those who ARE "set free" from that. It is no longer part of our lingo...that's all. We don't mean to say we don't love you and care about you. Ypu are Truth-Seekers and my bible says we will be "one stick in the hand of HaShem", and that says it all. Love and prayers back to you, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm. The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION". Hello?! There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION". We are not here on this list to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will. We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is what you are missing. Nothing else matters. Nothing or no one else can save us. When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion, then HASHEM will do the rest. There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever said the Jews have it or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land. I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES. No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation. Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/80bbe240/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 16:20:48 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:20:48 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Message-ID: For goodness sake, I hope I did not bring out the hostility expressed herein. Ross explained to me earlier in a phone conversation and I'm taking his advice since I am speaking upon the foundation he laid. I admit James sometimes gets under my skin as I'm sure I do his. I realize I should not have stirred the pot, but it sure shows each of us still have a lot of human nature that has not yet come up to par with the Holy, Righteous, and Good Torah of HaShem, and I will make the first confession, by reminding myself to love my neighbor as myself.. Clyde . **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/7b8b38cb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Size: 33285 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/7b8b38cb/attachment.mht From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 6 16:23:57 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 21:23:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <16791.41797.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <111031.20307.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <16791.41797.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <070620082123.27146.487137ED0003906900006A0A22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> wow... I don't check my mail for a few hours and when I do, I step into a brouhaha... a veritable m?l?e! I can only assume that I am also considered in the group of those who need to be "set free"... merely because I once aspoused to be a Christian... hmmm... and all the while, I was really trying to seek YHVH with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. He therefore led me to Himself, and away from the idols of my fathers. He revealed Himself to me in undeniable ways. He speaks to me and instructs me in The Way. That I arrived here by a roundabout journey is of no consequence to me - for what matters is that I am here NOW. I stand with John C. in viewing Yeshua as a prophet who spoke the words of YHVH. His message has been distorted and ripped from its context. His mission has been altered to fit with other agendas. His purpose, by his own admission, was the bear witness to the truth - and he stated quite emphatically that The Truth was the Word of YHVH. So it is to that Word and its Author that I look for all my answers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/27da3423/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 16:30:41 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <16791.41797.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Linda, ? I assume that what you speak of being set free from is the "Roman Catholicisms" which has nothing to do with the NT and Yeshua ben David. I am happy for that. From such things, I was indeed set free myself and have dedicated myself totally to calling others out of such distortions and continue to suffer persecutions for doing so. But, what you and others seem to be unable to separate in your thinking is the Two, and there is?a bitterness toward the NT when it actually should be toward Roman Catholicism - which has nothing to do with the NT!!! We try our best to distinguish the two, but thus far, it hasn't gotten through. ? I do not need to renounce Yeshua ben David as the Messiah. I do not need to renounce the holy spirit, which I received and The Visions that I have received. I do not need to renounce "The Testimony of Yeshua" [ interpret correctly and follow the Torah, yes, but renounce - NO!! ]. There is a big difference from the Real Resurrected Yeshua and the Roman J*E*S*U*S. Renounce that - absolutely!!! Be free from that -- ABSOLUTELY -- but, the Jew who was raised from the dead - NAY!! ? So, again, I am part of Israel because HaShem told me so - just as much as anyone from Judah - and I plan to fight, if necessary, on all of our behalf, but, until and unless, The Holy One (Baruch Hu) descends and says, Tracy, you're wrong - renouncing Yeshua as being raised from the dead, or as The Messiah - it just ain't gonna happen!! ? Can we dwell together and keep torah together on these grounds? I need to know. I'm singing a song, which I wrote, on my new CD, called Return Sons of Joseph - One of the lines reads, ? for Judah will now be your friend, ? Do I need to change that line???? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:56 PM Dear Tracy, ?I can't speak for others, but I am not treating you as you think.? And "holier than thou" is a wrong perception of us who don't want to talk about Yeshua and the NT on the UI list.? We care very deeply about "souls" and pray that you will all be "set free", because "set free you are not when you have to quote Yeshua and the NT, and debate with those who ARE "set free" from that.??It is no longer part of our lingo...that's all.? We don't mean to say we don't love you and care about you. Ypu are Truth-Seekers and my bible says we will be "one stick in the hand of HaShem", and that says it all. ? Love and prayers back to you, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, ? I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. ? But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! ? The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm.? The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION".? Hello?!? There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION".? We are not here on this list?to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will.? We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.? That is what you are missing.? Nothing else matters.? Nothing or no one else can save us.? When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion,? then HASHEM will do the rest.? There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever?said the Jews have it?or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who?seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land.? I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES.? No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ?ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation.? Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/9b6ba82d/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 6 16:37:51 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <842272.43104.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Tracy, This is where we do not agree. So I will pray for you and you will pray for me. And I will love you all the way home... Love and blessings, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, I assume that what you speak of being set free from is the "Roman Catholicisms" which has nothing to do with the NT and Yeshua ben David. I am happy for that. From such things, I was indeed set free myself and have dedicated myself totally to calling others out of such distortions and continue to suffer persecutions for doing so. But, what you and others seem to be unable to separate in your thinking is the Two, and there is a bitterness toward the NT when it actually should be toward Roman Catholicism - which has nothing to do with the NT!!! We try our best to distinguish the two, but thus far, it hasn't gotten through. I do not need to renounce Yeshua ben David as the Messiah. I do not need to renounce the holy spirit, which I received and The Visions that I have received. I do not need to renounce "The Testimony of Yeshua" [ interpret correctly and follow the Torah, yes, but renounce - NO!! ]. There is a big difference from the Real Resurrected Yeshua and the Roman J*E*S*U*S. Renounce that - absolutely!!! Be free from that -- ABSOLUTELY -- but, the Jew who was raised from the dead - NAY!! So, again, I am part of Israel because HaShem told me so - just as much as anyone from Judah - and I plan to fight, if necessary, on all of our behalf, but, until and unless, The Holy One (Baruch Hu) descends and says, Tracy, you're wrong - renouncing Yeshua as being raised from the dead, or as The Messiah - it just ain't gonna happen!! Can we dwell together and keep torah together on these grounds? I need to know. I'm singing a song, which I wrote, on my new CD, called Return Sons of Joseph - One of the lines reads, for Judah will now be your friend, Do I need to change that line???? Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:56 PM Dear Tracy, I can't speak for others, but I am not treating you as you think. And "holier than thou" is a wrong perception of us who don't want to talk about Yeshua and the NT on the UI list. We care very deeply about "souls" and pray that you will all be "set free", because "set free you are not when you have to quote Yeshua and the NT, and debate with those who ARE "set free" from that. It is no longer part of our lingo...that's all. We don't mean to say we don't love you and care about you. Ypu are Truth-Seekers and my bible says we will be "one stick in the hand of HaShem", and that says it all. Love and prayers back to you, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm. The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION". Hello?! There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION". We are not here on this list to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will. We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is what you are missing. Nothing else matters. Nothing or no one else can save us. When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion, then HASHEM will do the rest. There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever said the Jews have it or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land. I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES. No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation. Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/2cfdc724/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 16:44:02 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:44:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, Tracy. When I speak of Ephraimites, I include myself! Like you, I am among those who have come out of Christianity. I was and still am convicted by the Scriptures I quoted below. They are very pointed, and I have repented of, and am still working on some of the cherished beliefs that I once "drunkenly, arrogantly, rebelliously" (according to G-d's Word) held in great esteem, without even realizing that I was contradicting His Word. I believe that we have gone to Judah trying to teach him our ways, when Tanach teaches that we need to be asking Judah to teach us his ways. We are to take hold of the Tzit-Tzit of the Jew, not the other way around. I was trying to be funny by saying "bass-akwards," not trying to provoke you or anyone else. But I do feel that to try to interpret Torah through the N.T. is backward. N.T. must be interpreted through Torah. I think we all agree on this, so had no idea that saying so would be upsetting to anyone. Your relative whether you like it not (kidding here!!!!), Pat From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/8505d48b/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 16:47:31 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <842272.43104.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <533142.74856.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I must announce to you that if this is you're answer and that of?Judah as a whole,?then, ? everyone shut the doors on your house until the wrath of HaShem passes, be in the right place at the right time, store up plenty of provisions, because "Jacob/Joseph" is about to be shattered as the "Day of HaShem" falls on us here in America and those of Judah here with us are going to go through the same...it could have been different though...HaShem will wipe away our tears though...eventually ? i hope we make it until sukkot, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:37 PM Dear Tracy, ? ? This is where we do not agree.? So I will pray for you and you will pray for me.? And I will love you all the way home... ? Love and blessings, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, ? I assume that what you speak of being set free from is the "Roman Catholicisms" which has nothing to do with the NT and Yeshua ben David. I am happy for that. From such things, I was indeed set free myself and have dedicated myself totally to calling others out of such distortions and continue to suffer persecutions for doing so. But, what you and others seem to be unable to separate in your thinking is the Two, and there is?a bitterness toward the NT when it actually should be toward Roman Catholicism - which has nothing to do with the NT!!! We try our best to distinguish the two, but thus far, it hasn't gotten through. ? I do not need to renounce Yeshua ben David as the Messiah. I do not need to renounce the holy spirit, which I received and The Visions that I have received. I do not need to renounce "The Testimony of Yeshua" [ interpret correctly and follow the Torah, yes, but renounce - NO!! ]. There is a big difference from the Real Resurrected Yeshua and the Roman J*E*S*U*S. Renounce that - absolutely!!! Be free from that -- ABSOLUTELY -- but, the Jew who was raised from the dead - NAY!! ? So, again, I am part of Israel because HaShem told me so - just as much as anyone from Judah - and I plan to fight, if necessary, on all of our behalf, but, until and unless, The Holy One (Baruch Hu) descends and says, Tracy, you're wrong - renouncing Yeshua as being raised from the dead, or as The Messiah - it just ain't gonna happen!! ? Can we dwell together and keep torah together on these grounds? I need to know. I'm singing a song, which I wrote, on my new CD, called Return Sons of Joseph - One of the lines reads, ? for Judah will now be your friend, ? Do I need to change that line???? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:56 PM Dear Tracy, ?I can't speak for others, but I am not treating you as you think.? And "holier than thou" is a wrong perception of us who don't want to talk about Yeshua and the NT on the UI list.? We care very deeply about "souls" and pray that you will all be "set free", because "set free you are not when you have to quote Yeshua and the NT, and debate with those who ARE "set free" from that.??It is no longer part of our lingo...that's all.? We don't mean to say we don't love you and care about you. Ypu are Truth-Seekers and my bible says we will be "one stick in the hand of HaShem", and that says it all. ? Love and prayers back to you, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, ? I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. ? But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! ? The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm.? The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION".? Hello?!? There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION".? We are not here on this list?to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will.? We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.? That is what you are missing.? Nothing else matters.? Nothing or no one else can save us.? When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion,? then HASHEM will do the rest.? There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever?said the Jews have it?or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who?seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land.? I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES.? No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ?ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation.? Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all!? Linda_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/ca6228ee/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 16:44:02 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:44:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <302136.90425.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, Tracy. When I speak of Ephraimites, I include myself! Like you, I am among those who have come out of Christianity. I was and still am convicted by the Scriptures I quoted below. They are very pointed, and I have repented of, and am still working on some of the cherished beliefs that I once "drunkenly, arrogantly, rebelliously" (according to G-d's Word) held in great esteem, without even realizing that I was contradicting His Word. I believe that we have gone to Judah trying to teach him our ways, when Tanach teaches that we need to be asking Judah to teach us his ways. We are to take hold of the Tzit-Tzit of the Jew, not the other way around. I was trying to be funny by saying "bass-akwards," not trying to provoke you or anyone else. But I do feel that to try to interpret Torah through the N.T. is backward. N.T. must be interpreted through Torah. I think we all agree on this, so had no idea that saying so would be upsetting to anyone. Your relative whether you like it not (kidding here!!!!), Pat From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/55c5afab/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 6 17:27:19 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 In-Reply-To: <48704C5E.4030501@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <447845.89339.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Joe, ? I read all of the material which you spoke of. I thank you for offering it for consideration. I think that it is most informative, even though some of our friends might diss it. It should not be diss-missed!!!! I challenge Judah to read it!!!! ? I was led by The Spirit of HaShem to a Chabad Jew. The first Jew I ever knew. I was led by Visions to this man. I felt like when he spoke, that?I was receiving a missing element of the Real Yeshua whom I KNOW. I felt the same with Hanoch when I heard him speak. I love my brother Judah, for my lord, is of Judah himself, and it saddens me that for so long I was without that precious ingredient. ? I do recognize your scholarship and the tireless hours of sorting through and understanding 'the rabbis' teachings (yet, you speak as if they were all one voice - that is not the case, as a simple reading of the Mishnah will reveal) that you bring to our table. I do appreciate them and learn from them. Please continue - for Ephraim needs Judah and Judah needs Ephraim - I hope we all will come to realize this soon. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Sat, 7/5/08, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, July 5, 2008, 11:38 PM Shalom Hanoch, Todah Rabbah for posting this VERY INTERESTING post on Mashiach and resurrection. What was found is still to be officially upheld by the researchers and scholars. This however is genuine proof that the time has arrived to discuss Yeshua from historical Hebraic roots to the chagrin of Orthodox Christians. Not to underscore the importance of this finding, I would like to post some very interesting points that were posted on an Orthodox Jewish website that I have followed for some time. It proves that the further back you go in time and the closer you get to the time of Yeshua , the writings of the Jewish Sages become more messianic. Much of what we know today as Judaism is a derivative of post 13th century Europe. Most of which was written as a knee jerk reaction to the teachings of Christianity and to keep Jewish people united under the seyag - fence of the Rabbinic teachings. Baruch HaShem that they did so. For had the Jewish people converted to Christianity en masse,? we the gentile G-d fearers would have no roots to return to. So I am presenting a 3 part expose from the Jewish blog for you all to consider. The Suffering of Moshiach I In one of the most famous Talmudic passages concerning Moshiach, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi asks Elijah the prophet when Moshiach will come. Elijah tells Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi to ask Moshiach himself. Where is Moshiach? Sitting among the sickly paupers at the gate to Rome, untying and replacing the bandages over his sores. This passage is followed by the suggestion that Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi, who organized and edited the first part of the Talmud, could be Moshiach because he suffered from illnesses and was completely righteous. Isaiah describes at length "a man of pains and acquainted with sickness." Many Jewish commentators, such as Ramban and Abarbanel, explain this as a reference to Moshiach. Many passages in the book of Psalms speak of the sufferings and illness of King David. Our Sages explain these as also a reference to the sufferings and illness of King David's descendent, Moshiach. The Maharal of Prague, the great leader, philosopher, legal authority and mystic who lived in the 1500's, discussed the nature of and reasons for the pain Moshiach would have to endure. The Alshich, a sixteenth century kabbalist, explains that Moshiach accepts his suffering willingly, with love for the Jewish people and all mankind, that when Moshiach finally reveals himself, we will realize that he chose to suffer. We will then understand how much effort he invested in bearing the suffering of the generation." Rabbi Schneur Zalman, the founder of Chabad Chassidism, actually details the nature and symptoms of the illness Moshiach will suffer. The Chofetz Chaim, in his work on awaiting Moshiach, discusses the concept of the "birthpangs of Moshiach." In fact, this idea, likening the time of Moshiach to the pain and turmoil of giving birth, is found throughout the legal, philosophic and mystical discussions of Moshiach over the centuries. Surely, if the generation in which Moshiach comes will, unfortunately, know great suffering and travail, then Moshiach himself will share in, actually have the greatest portion of, the sickness and pain. Why? Why must Moshiach, the individual who will bring redemption to the world, undergo illness and pain? We can understand that there may be a period of doubt - perhaps, G-d forbid, rejection by some, unwilling to accept what the Torah tells us or not yet educated in the concepts of Moshiach and Redemption. This part of the process we can accept - reluctantly - because the process of redemption, of pushing away great darkness, begins with just a little light. But the need to struggle, to teach, to, as Maimonides puts it, heal the breaches, should not require physical illness. Why does being sick seem to be a pre-requisite to bringing goodness and kindness to the world? There are two basic reasons. The first has to do with the relationship between a leader and his people, more specifically, between Moshiach and the generation that will greet him. There is an intimate connection between them, as our Sages teach, "The generation is its leader, and the leader is the generation." Accordingly, the suffering of Moshiach is for the sake of, and to atone for, his generation. The second reason for Moshiach's illness has to do with Moshiach himself. As we have explained before, redemption is a process: the potential Moshiach becomes the presumed Moshiach, and then the confirmed Moshiach. Each stage represents a transformation of the individual. In order for Moshiach to move to the next stage, he must, in a sense, cease being who he was. Any change in an individual - the stages of life - creates an upheaval, an imbalance. The sickness of Moshiach, then, is part of the transformation, the process of becoming Moshiach in the fullest sense, the King and Redeemer. In the next two weeks we will, G-d Willing, talk about each of these explanations at more length. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/96830a7b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 6 18:10:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:10:08 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Message-ID: Shalom to all, And tonight in particular, I truly wish us SHALOM - peace. Tracy summed things up in the following words, which speak directly to my heart: "for Ephraim needs Judah and Judah needs Ephraim - I hope we all will come to realize this soon." I'd like to humbly suggest we all give some deep thought to exactly what that means....and what it will take...I know that I will be... Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/6c869ed7/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Jul 6 19:28:54 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 20:28:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Ross Live right now... Message-ID: <380FE807-7A95-4A23-BCD4-F0D044B4F73A@earthlink.net> Reminder, Ross is on live right now...amazing sense I am getting from his message tonight. Don't miss it. http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm James From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 20:26:32 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:26:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] As always, thank you, Ross. Message-ID: You are reaching the nations, Ross, and you are setting the captives free with the Word of HaSHem. Thank you so much for your diligence, and your loving concern for His scattered ones. Avigail/Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/b9cce363/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 20:26:58 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:26:58 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shull Message-ID: Thank you Ross, so moving , so inspirited, the liberty to set the apprised free. May HAShem be praised. Clyde **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/f08cbd6c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 20:33:40 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:33:40 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3. In-Reply-To: <48704C79.4010102@westnet.com.au> References: <48704C79.4010102@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Most appreciated, Joe! These 3 teachings were wonderful, and very timely. Have saved them to my computer. Thanks, Avigail/Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:39 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3. The suffering of Moshiach III The past two weeks we have discussed Biblical, Talmudic and mystical passages testifying that, according to Jewish tradition, part of the process for the revelation of Moshiach includes a period of intense suffering and severe illness for Moshiach. Two basic reasons have been offered by the scholars. Last week, we considered the first, that Moshiach, as a leader, was intimately tied to, responsible for and affected by the actions his people. The second reason for Moshiach's illness concerns Moshiach himself, how an individual becomes the king and Redeemer of the Jewish people and, after that, all mankind. The process of becoming Moshiach represents a transformation of the individual. In order for Moshiach to move to the next stage, he must, in a sense, cease being who he was. As with any change in an individual's status - whether an alteration in external circumstances or the internal trauma of the stages of life - Moshiach's metamorphosis from simply being a wise and holy man to the actual king and redeemer involves an upheaval, an imbalance. For this reason, the time of the coming of Moshiach is often referred to as the "birthpangs of Moshiach," for just as the labor and delivery of a newborn involves a tremendous, difficult struggle, so, too the emergence of Moshiach may well require a painful disruption of previous conditions, leading to confusion, agitation and disorder. Naturally, this convulsion would affect both the generation - and Moshiach himself. Rabbi Schneur Zalman, known as the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chabad Chassidism, explains, in a brief but insightful discourse, why there is upheaval before Moshiach is fully revealed, and what his illness will be like. The Jewish people are considered one entity, one body - a complete individual. Each and every Jew, he says, has a unique function, a Divine service particular to that person alone, whether of an intellectual, emotional or physical nature. Without each and every individual, the Jewish people would not be whole. What affects one, affects all. Naturally, however, what happens to the head has the most far-reaching repercussions; and the consequences of , G-d forbid, an injury elsewhere are measured in the head, so to speak. By analogy, what happens to the individual who is the head, the leader of the generation, will happen to the generation itself. And what befalls the generation, will befall the leader. That is, the leader of the generation, but particularly Moshiach, is the microcosmic reflection of the macrocosmic situation and experience of the generation. Now, when a soul occupies a body, it "dwells," so to speak, in the brain, and from there guides the limbs in an orderly fashion. There is peace between each of the parts. Each organ performs its function, responding to the directions of the soul. But when, G-d forbid, there is a problem in the brain, when the blood cannot flow back and forth properly, this spreads to all the other limbs and their functions and situations become confused. When the head is so afflicted, the limbs of the body cannot respond properly. There is a numbness, an inability of the body and mind to communicate; indeed, though the mind may be active, though each individual organ - heart, liver, etc. - may be healthy and working, nevertheless the individual seems to be in a coma, apparently detached and disconnected from the outside world. This condition of apparently internal paralysis or bewilderment and outer unconsciousness has a parallel in the state of the Jewish people at the time of greatest darkness and coldness. That is, just as the deepest blackness of the night occurs just before the emergence of the dawn, so too the disarray among the Jewish people - the inability to abide another's Divine service, though performed according to Jewish law, the entanglement of good and evil, is strongest. just before Moshiach. For, the Alter Rebbe points out, there is sometimes a need for this chaos and bewilderment, painful and difficult as it is for the individual enduring it, or the Jewish people experiencing it. Sometimes when the G-dly light, the Divine soul, needs to shine forth, to be revealed, in a categorically new form and manner, then, just as the darkness thickens before the light, or labor is most intense before birth - just as all attention and effort focuses on the profound transformational struggle - so too, within the individual there will be a great confusion and internal dissension. The transition - the great difference - between the old and the new spiritual status may require a traumatic internal upheaval, and a consequent seclusion and isolation from the outside world. But after the darkness, there is light. After the birthpangs, there is a new life. And after the transformational sickness, there will be Moshiach, the King and Redeemer, who will harmonize, transform and spiritually elevate his generation, the one that will have knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the seabed. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/2119a319/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 20:45:08 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:45:08 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Message-ID: Thank you Hanoch for confirming these words of wisdom. May the breach be healed soon. Clyde. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/9c885301/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:10:08 EDT Size: 5378 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/9c885301/attachment.mht From Tacticalmgt at aol.com Sun Jul 6 20:56:37 2008 From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com (Tacticalmgt at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:56:37 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Message-ID: Shalom to you as well, my friend. I, of course, am new to the dialogue list, and I don't comment much due to the fact I work a lot of hours, and have a working ranch to attend to as well. . I do, however feel compelled to answer what Hanoch spoke about when he said "for Ephraim needs Judah and Judah needs Ephraim - I hope we all will come to realize this soon." Hanoch is right ! When life is filled with competing agenda's, there is only a slight chance that profound matters will get a hearing. I, quite honestly, find it amazing that Ephraim and Judah have the "perfect storm" of survival issues today, and yet they are divided by animus that has existed for thousands of years. In my opinion, the animus will only result in the loss of innocent lives in the not too distant future. ( my opinion, folks...feel free to disagree) In my opinion, Ephraim and Judah not only need each other, we desperately need unity. Without this, we are destined to fail. So how do we achieve it? In my humble opinion, we learn to agree to disagree, as others have demonstrated here, accept each others differences, and move ahead to the critical issues of becoming a nation in service to G-d. Otherwise, we could end up as Isaiah illustrates: ."The people draw near with their mouths, and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from Me and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote. (Isaiah 12:1)" Ephraim and Judah each have some issues that are non-negotiable, so the critical issue is this: How can we overcome this, in both nations, accept our differences, and function as a fully recognizable nation? We are a nation folks. A nation has different types of people, different types of issues, and different types of national dialogue. Not everyone is going to agree, and not everyone is going to "come around" to another point of view. Not only are we a nation, we are family. We dont have to agree on everything, but we should love each other anyways. Thanks for hearing me out folks. regards Jim **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/ade492a7/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 22:47:04 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:47:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the Rebbe, Moshiach, Kaballah and Chassidus In-Reply-To: <48704EA0.6030201@westnet.com.au> References: <48704EA0.6030201@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: This was so interesting, Joe! Thank you so much for sending it. Vendyl Jones always said he believed that David would be resurrected as Moshiac according to Jeremiah 30:8-9, "For it shall come to pass on that day, says the L-RD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy hands, and strangers shall no more enslave him: but they shall serve the L-RD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up for them." I know that most would say this simply refers to a descendant of David, but it is a thought provoking interpretation in light of this article. - Personally, I plan to be ecstatic about whoever it turns out to be!!! Shavua tov, Avigail/Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:48 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the Rebbe, Moshiach, Kaballah and Chassidus Shalom Chaverim, This too will stir up many passions. More about Mashiach from the Jewish perspective. A real eye opener and an ear dewaxer. Please read all four pages. I promise you will not be bored!!!!. Please then click on the home page to read other articles. You will not be disappointed. Enjoy the read. Your Achi JOE http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.php?page=qaforum&chapter=3§ion=1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080706/69e4d752/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Jul 7 01:11:06 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:11:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks Message-ID: <200807070611.m676B7bG020868@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Shalom Everyone, Those who have been waiting for any communication from me, please be informed that I have been off the Internet since July 22nd, have suffered a corrupted Windows XP program and have not been able to get out on the Internet. Baruch Hashem, my operating system is restored and am back. Thank you for your patience. Steve From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jul 7 01:13:20 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 06:13:20 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks Message-ID: <1043264432-1215411643-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109487589-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I was just thinking about you Steve. John C. ------Original Message------ From: Steve Mathe Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue ReplyTo: Dialogue Sent: Jul 7, 2008 1:11 AM Subject: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks Shalom Everyone, Those who have been waiting for any communication from me, please be informed that I have been off the Internet since July 22nd, have suffered a corrupted Windows XP program and have not been able to get out on the Internet. Baruch Hashem, my operating system is restored and am back. Thank you for your patience. Steve _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 7 06:35:59 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:35:59 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Message-ID: Shalom Jim, Welcome, and thank you for the kind words. The credit for that statement I had used however, goes to Tracy; it was his insights that I was 'seconding,' so to speak. And now, if I may - I'd like to point out something that you wrote, so that everyone catches it, as well. Jim wrote: "Not only are we a nation, we are family. We dont have to agree on everything, but we should love each other anyways." THIS is something that we should always remember.... Best regards, Hanoch **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/af7c76bb/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 7 06:43:16 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:43:16 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Thoughts on Parshat Balak Message-ID: No 1230: 9 Tammuz 5768 (12 July 2008) STARTING POINT Balak and Pharaoh - by Rabbi Amnon Bazak, Yeshivat Har Etzion Balak Ben Tzipor is very afraid of the nation of Yisrael, and he therefore asks for help from the sorcerer Bilam Ben Be'or. There are many points of similarity between Balak's fears and those of Pharaoh in the beginning of the book of Shemot. Both nations fear the size of Yisrael. With respect to Egypt, it is written, "Behold, the nation of Bnei Yisrael is larger and greater than we are" [Shemot 1:9], while in this week's portion it is written, "Behold a nation has come out of Egypt, it has covered the surface of the earth" [Bamidbar 22:5]. In addition, "And Moav was very frightened of the nation because it was so large" [22:3], and "it is stronger than I am" [22:6]. The reaction was similar in both cases. "And they were disgusted by Bnei Yisrael" [Shemot 1:12]. "And Moav was disgusted by Bnei Yisrael" [Bamidbar 22:3]. Pharaoh is afraid, "And if a war comes they will join our enemies and fight us and rise up from the land" [Shemot 1:10], while in this week's portion it is written, "Perhaps we can strike them and expel them from the land" [Bamidbar 22:6]. The two kings tried to fight Bnei Yisrael in different ways. Pharaoh took a path of oppression and murder, while Balak tried magic and sorcery. Both kings failed, as is noted by the sages: "Pharaoh commanded, but G-d did not command, rather 'the more he oppressed them the more they grew larger and multiplied' [Shemot 1:12]... Balak and Bilam tried to curse Yisrael, but G-d did not want to." [Tanchuma Toldot 5]. In any case, it is interesting to note why the Torah described these two figures in a similar way. Evidently the main point that the Torah is trying to convey in the beginning of this week's Torah portion is related to Balak's basic mistake. Balak's claim with respect to leaving Egypt appears twice in the passage, both when he says to Bilam "Behold a nation has come out of Egypt" [Bamidbar 22:5] and when Bilam quotes the words of Balak to G-d, "Balak Ben Tzipor, the King of Moav, sent a message to me: Behold the nation which came out of Egypt..." [22:10-11]. But Bilam says something else. Bnei Yisrael did not come out of Egypt, they were taken out ? by the Almighty. "G-d has taken him out of Egypt, he has the strength of a ram" [23:22; 24:8]. The fact that this statement is repeated proves that it is a central element of Bilam's thought. Balak's entire approach is based on his secular viewpoint of reality, without any understanding that it was G-d who took Bnei Yisrael out of Egypt. And this explains why the Torah indicates that Balak was similar to Pharaoh, the first king who declared, "Who is G-d, that I should listen to Him? ... I do not know G-d, and I will not send Bnei Yisrael away." [Shemot 5:2]. The refusal to recognize G-d is what led to Balak's basic mistake, just like the similar attitude of Pharaoh. If Balak had come to the correct conclusion about the way Yisrael left Egypt, there would not have been any need for him to be humiliated by Bilam. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/a2c7d83a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 7 06:47:50 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:47:50 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] More details about Last Week's Hero Message-ID: More on Last Week's Hero Since the horrific bulldozer attack in Jerusalem last week which killed three and injured 66, more information has come out about the heroic off-duty soldier who shot the terrorist to stop his murderous rampage. Our hero was initially rejected from the Israeli military because he protested Israel's 2005 retreat from the Gaza Strip, we learned late Friday. The soldier, 20-year old Moshe Klessner, was forced to fight in court to get accepted into the military due to his activism against the Gaza evacuation. Shocking video footage obtained by Israel's Haaretz newspaper shows Klessner climbing onto a bulldozer driven by a terrorist against traffic and that was plowing into cars, buses and shocked crowds. Klessner can be seen shooting the terrorist several times in the head, halting an attack that had already killed three - including two female teachers - and injured 66 others. Only several hours later did he learn that one of those killed was his own cousin. Klessner has turned down media requests for interviews but released a statement saying he intervened in the attack "in accordance with the (biblical) precept of 'don't stand by your brother's blood,' even at the risk of getting hurt." **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/2118bbc4/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Jul 7 10:20:29 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:20:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09b401c8e045$002725f0$007571d0$@com> Hi Hanoch and All, I happen to think these terms were perfect for the point being made. You see, the hawk and dove each have a role in the balance of the planet, neither one being "better" than the other, but each serving its purpose according to the Creator's design. That was the context in which this person used the term - suggesting that the warrior and the peacenik, while being quite different, were necessary parts that make up a whole. That's all. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/5c79ee0e/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 7 10:27:47 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks In-Reply-To: <1043264432-1215411643-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-109487589-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <731249.53678.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> welcome back Steve ? Tracy --- On Mon, 7/7/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks To: "Dialogue" Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:13 AM I was just thinking about you Steve. John C. ------Original Message------ From: Steve Mathe Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue ReplyTo: Dialogue Sent: Jul 7, 2008 1:11 AM Subject: [Dialogue] been off Internet 2 weeks Shalom Everyone, Those who have been waiting for any communication from me, please be informed that I have been off the Internet since July 22nd, have suffered a corrupted Windows XP program and have not been able to get out on the Internet. Baruch Hashem, my operating system is restored and am back. Thank you for your patience. Steve _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/d871a3f8/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Jul 7 10:43:20 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:43:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Gloating In-Reply-To: <09b401c8e045$002725f0$007571d0$@com> References: <09b401c8e045$002725f0$007571d0$@com> Message-ID: <09db01c8e048$30565310$9102f930$@com> D'VAR TORAH | http://tmt.urj.net/images/dvartorah1020.JPG Forgive Your Enemy but Remember His Name Rifat Sonsino For centuries, ethicists have struggled with the following question: how should one deal with the enemy in distress? The natural instinct is to gloat over an enemy's misfortune because of the suffering the enemy has caused. But can this be morally justified? The "despoiling of the Egyptians" included in this week's Torah portion, Bo, has elicited contradictory responses. Brevard S. Childs, a biblical scholar, writes, "Few passages have provoked such an obvious embarrassment both to Jewish and Christian expositors as has this one" (TheBook ofExodus: A Critical, Theological Commentary, The Old Testament Library [Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1974], p. 175). The Background After ten plagues fell upon the Egyptians and just before the Exodus, the Bible informs us: "The Israelites had done Moses' bidding and borrowed [vayishalu] from the Egyptians objects of silver and gold, and clothing. And the Eternal had disposed the Egyptians favorably toward the people, and they let them have their request [vayashilum]; thus they stripped [vaynatz'lu] the Egyptians" (Exodus 12:35 ? 36). This text refers back to God's request of Moses that the Israelites "borrow" silver and gold from their neighbors (Exodus 11:2), presumably for the building of the Tabernacle in the desert. It also harkens backs to God's promise to Moses that the Israelites will not leave Egypt empty-handed (Exodus 3:21 ? 22). Here we have both a linguistic and an ethical question. First the linguistic one: The verb used in all of these texts is shaal, which basically means "ask," but can also mean "borrow" without any suggestion of return (see Judges 8:24; I Samuel 1:27, 2:20; II Kings 4:28). The ethical problem is this: did the Israelites use deceit? In other words, did they "borrow" these objects even though they had no intention of returning them? And how can we justify God's role in encouraging this despoliation? Various approaches have been advanced to resolve this issue: 1. This was compensation for all the hard work they did in Egypt. This idea is articulated as early as the Book of Jubilees: the despoliation was done "in return for the bondage in which they had forced them [the Israelites] to live" (48:18). In the first century, the Jewish philosopher Philo argued: "They were receiving the wages owed to them for their service all that time" (Life of Moses 1:134). Similar sentiments were expressed in the Wisdom of Solomon (10:16 ? 17, 10:20), in the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 91a), and in M'gillatTaanit. The medieval commentator Nachmanides is gentler, saying: "This refers to the payment as ?atonement' for all the damages inflicted on Jews" (on Exodus 11:3). Among modern scholars, U. Cassuto calls them "a farewell payment" to the Israelites, who were entitled to them (Perush al Sefer Shemot [Jerusalem: Magnes, 1969], p. 27). For M. Greenberg, "God saw to it that the emancipated Israelites were treated in accord with the Torah's regulations of masters to fit out Hebrew freedmen when discharging them" (Understanding Exodus [New York: Behrman House, 1969], p. 87). 2. These were outright gifts given willingly to the departing Israelites. There was no deception on their part. In Psalms we read: " Egypt rejoiced when they left" (105:38). The first-century historian Josephus concurs: "They honored the Hebrews with gifts; some did so that they might depart more quickly, others because of the neighborly relations that they had with them" (Antiquities of the Jews 2:314). The M'chilta agrees: "As soon as the Israelite said: ?Lend me,' he [the Egyptian] brought it out for him" (Pischa, on Bo 12:36). In medieval times, commenting on Exodus 11:2, both Rashi and Rashbam argue that the Israelites received an irrevocable and outright gift. John Durham, a modern biblical scholar, says the same thing: "The Israelites ?ask,' and the Egyptians, in a kind of trance of affection and trust caused by Yahweh, freely give" (Exodus [Waco, TX: Word Books, 1987], p. 148). Compassion for the Enemy Our biblical text is not interested here in the ethical question we have raised. The narrator's purpose seems to be to stress God's major role in the redemptive events because of the special relationship with Israel. The stripping of the Egyptians was part of this plan. As Nahum M. Sarna indicates, "The Israelites escaped from Egypt with their dignity intact" (Exploring Exodus [New York: Schocken Books, 1989], p. 57). The Bible, not being a text of systematic theology, includes opposing views on how to deal with the enemy. On the one hand, it contains passages expressing happiness over the death of the adversary (see, for instance, the prophecies of Nahum and Esther), and on other hand, it advocates more sympathy for the plight of the enemy. The latter, I believe, ought to be the guiding principle in our day. Thus, for example, in Exodus we read, "When you encounter your enemy's ox or ass wandering, you must take it back" (23:4; cf. 23:5). Similarly, Proverbs exhorts, "Do not rejoice when your enemy falls" (24:17) and "If your enemy is hungry, feed him" (25:21). Job exclaims that he has never rejoiced over his enemies' misfortunes (31:29). In Rabbinic literature we find that God "does not rejoice in the downfall of the wicked" (Babylonian Talmud, M'gillah 10b), and as an example, we are told how God rebuked the angels who were celebrating after the drowning of the Egyptians in the Reed Sea: "The work of my hands is being drowned in the sea, and you chant hymns?"(ibid.). Many Jewish teachers have taught us to be sensitive to the plight of the enemy and have advocated a more caring approach toward enemies in all cases, all the more so when the enemies have convincingly made amends. And even though our teachers did not support the extreme position of the Christian Bible that you should "love your enemies" (Matthew 5:44), they have encouraged us to be kind, considerate, and humane. We should follow their advice. Maybe the best way to deal with enemies who repent is to forgive them, but also to remember their names. Rabbi Rifat Sonsino , Ph.D., is rabbi emeritus of Temple Beth Shalom in Needham, Massachusetts, and a faculty member of the Theology Department at Boston College. rsonsino at ix.netcom.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/fa8fe1e1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 1757 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/fa8fe1e1/attachment.jpe From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 7 12:08:31 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:08:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] More details about Last Week's Hero In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank G-d for this man's unselfish bravery. From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:47 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] More details about Last Week's Hero More on Last Week's Hero Since the horrific bulldozer attack in Jerusalem last week which killed three and injured 66, more information has come out about the heroic off-duty soldier who shot the terrorist to stop his murderous rampage. Our hero was initially rejected from the Israeli military because he protested Israel's 2005 retreat from the Gaza Strip, we learned late Friday. The soldier, 20-year old Moshe Klessner, was forced to fight in court to get accepted into the military due to his activism against the Gaza evacuation. Shocking video footage obtained by Israel's Haaretz newspaper shows Klessner climbing onto a bulldozer driven by a terrorist against traffic and that was plowing into cars, buses and shocked crowds. Klessner can be seen shooting the terrorist several times in the head, halting an attack that had already killed three - including two female teachers - and injured 66 others. Only several hours later did he learn that one of those killed was his own cousin. Klessner has turned down media requests for interviews but released a statement saying he intervened in the attack "in accordance with the (biblical) precept of 'don't stand by your brother's blood,' even at the risk of getting hurt." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/b5cc5622/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Mon Jul 7 14:57:21 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 14:57:21 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E98C6E454DB487E93F013AF6F93A58F@sherryPC> Dear Tracy, Thank you, thank you , thank you! Love and blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Dear Linda, I assume that what you speak of being set free from is the "Roman Catholicisms" which has nothing to do with the NT and Yeshua ben David. I am happy for that. From such things, I was indeed set free myself and have dedicated myself totally to calling others out of such distortions and continue to suffer persecutions for doing so. But, what you and others seem to be unable to separate in your thinking is the Two, and there is a bitterness toward the NT when it actually should be toward Roman Catholicism - which has nothing to do with the NT!!! We try our best to distinguish the two, but thus far, it hasn't gotten through. I do not need to renounce Yeshua ben David as the Messiah. I do not need to renounce the holy spirit, which I received and The Visions that I have received. I do not need to renounce "The Testimony of Yeshua" [ interpret correctly and follow the Torah, yes, but renounce - NO!! ]. There is a big difference from the Real Resurrected Yeshua and the Roman J*E*S*U*S. Renounce that - absolutely!!! Be free from that -- ABSOLUTELY -- but, the Jew who was raised from the dead - NAY!! So, again, I am part of Israel because HaShem told me so - just as much as anyone from Judah - and I plan to fight, if necessary, on all of our behalf, but, until and unless, The Holy One (Baruch Hu) descends and says, Tracy, you're wrong - renouncing Yeshua as being raised from the dead, or as The Messiah - it just ain't gonna happen!! Can we dwell together and keep torah together on these grounds? I need to know. I'm singing a song, which I wrote, on my new CD, called Return Sons of Joseph - One of the lines reads, for Judah will now be your friend, Do I need to change that line???? Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:56 PM Dear Tracy, I can't speak for others, but I am not treating you as you think. And "holier than thou" is a wrong perception of us who don't want to talk about Yeshua and the NT on the UI list. We care very deeply about "souls" and pray that you will all be "set free", because "set free you are not when you have to quote Yeshua and the NT, and debate with those who ARE "set free" from that. It is no longer part of our lingo...that's all. We don't mean to say we don't love you and care about you. Ypu are Truth-Seekers and my bible says we will be "one stick in the hand of HaShem", and that says it all. Love and prayers back to you, Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Dear Linda, I'm shocked that you don't hear your own and that of others who speak. I could quote many scriptures about Judah from the prophets and point out Judah's own problems. I have refrained from such, but I kind of got ticked off with the 'holier than thou' attitude. But, the real deal is this: I need you - and whether or not believe it yet - you need us!! You guys are not talking to the average Joes who have just come out of Catholicism. There is no Trinitarian ideas here among the core of Joes represented, but you continually bring up such things as if they are our beliefs nor are they even in the New Testament, and they are not!! The promise in the Torah in Genesis 3:15 is nothing without its fulfillment - and, thats just what the Testamony of Yeshua is about. If you don't believe that - then, that's fine - we're still fellow countrymen and I'll fight on your behalf for your part of The Land. But, please don't treat us like we're all still bowing down before a statue of Peter. That does not, nor has ever been our history. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 3:09 PM Tracy, I am shocked at your sarcasm. The answer to all you said is simple...It's not about "RELIGION". Hello?! There is a church, synogogue, mosque and other "buildings" on every corner in most cities, all housing "RELIGION". We are not here on this list to debate RELIGION" which can't save the world!...never has...never will. We are here to seek TRUTH which only comes through a "personal relationship with HASHEM", the one true, living G-d..creator of the universe, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is what you are missing. Nothing else matters. Nothing or no one else can save us. When we get to that point, where it's TRUTH AT ANY COST...not religion, then HASHEM will do the rest. There is only one right, and nobody on this list ever said the Jews have it or Judaism has it....HASHEM has it readily available for those who seek His face and turn from their wicked ways, then HE will hear from heaven and heal their land. I can't find it anywhere that He said a religion or a man can do it. We believe that His house shall be a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLES. No one on this list has asked you or anyone to convert. ALL are invited to drink from His well.of salvation...religion can make the invite, but can't deliver the salvation. Linda Tracy Osborne wrote: Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch -------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.3/1526 - Release Date: 6/30/2008 8:43 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/23d15880/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jul 7 17:51:31 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 08:51:31 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1] Message-ID: <48729DF3.70603@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/0d0479f8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 21:56:37 EDT Size: 10882 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/0d0479f8/attachment.eml From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Jul 7 18:18:13 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 19:18:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On sale now in Jerusalem: Priestly garments In-Reply-To: <4E98C6E454DB487E93F013AF6F93A58F@sherryPC> References: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4E98C6E454DB487E93F013AF6F93A58F@sherryPC> Message-ID: <0a5501c8e087$bbe409b0$33ac1d10$@com> On sale now in Jerusalem: Priestly garments The Associated Press Mon, Jul 7, 2008 (1:30 a.m.) Click here to find out more!In a stuffy basement off an Old City alleyway in Jerusalem, tailors using ancient texts as a blueprint have begun making a curious line of clothing they hope will be worn by priests in a reconstructed Jewish Temple. The project, run by a Jerusalem group called the Temple Institute, is part of an ideology that advocates making practical preparations for the rebuilding of the ancient temple on a disputed rectangle in Jerusalem sacred to both Jews and Muslims. Jews call the site the Temple Mount and venerate it as their holiest place. The temple itself was destroyed by Roman legions two millennia ago. For the past 1,300 years, the site has been home to Islam's third-holiest shrine, the Noble Sanctuary, including the golden Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque. These conflicting claims lie at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and past efforts to upset the status quo have erupted into violence. The Temple Institute has made priestly garments in the past for display in the small museum it runs in the Jewish Quarter, but those were hand-sewn and cost upward of $10,000 each. The institute recently received rabbinic permission to begin using sewing machines for the first time, bringing the cost down and allowing them to produce dozens or hundreds of garments, depending on how many orders come in. If you are a descendant of the Jewish priestly class, a full outfit, including an embroidered belt 32 cubits (48 feet) long, can be yours for about $800. "Before, the clothes we made were to go on display. Now we're engaged in the practical fulfillment of the divine commandment," said Yehuda Glick, the Temple Institute's director, at a ceremony marking the workshop's opening last week. The thread, six-ply flax, was purchased in India, and the diamond-patterned fabric was woven in Israel. The blue dye, which the Bible calls "tchelet," is made from the secretions of a snail found in the Mediterranean Sea, and the red color comes from an aphid found on local trees. The priests, made up of descendants of the Biblical figure Aaron, were an elite group entrusted with the temple and its rituals, such as sacrificing animals and making other offerings to God. The memory of belonging to that class has been preserved by Jews through the centuries. Their most common family name is "Cohen," meaning priest. The Temple Institute and similarly minded believers think those modern priests will soon have to resume the rituals of their ancestors in a rebuilt temple, and that by preparing their garments they are bringing that day closer. "The light of God is coming back, and it's happening before our eyes," Glick said. By sewing garments for the temple priests, his institute is "continuing a process that was neglected for 2,000 years," he said. The Temple Institute does not advocate violent action and says its activities are purely educational. But groups like the institute, however marginal, have played on Muslim fears that Jews plan to destroy their holy sites to pave the way for rebuilding the temple. Adnan Husseini, formerly the top Muslim official at the site and now an adviser on Jerusalem affairs to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, called the work of such groups a "provocation." "If they talk about building the third temple, what does it mean? It means they will destroy the Islamic mosques," Husseini said. "And if they do, they will make 1.5 billion enemies. It is God's will that this is a place for Muslims to pray, and they must respect that." The first Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians 2,500 years ago, and the second was leveled by the Romans in the year 70. Since then, the focus of the religion has changed drastically, from a temple-centered ritual of animal sacrifice led by priests to a faith revolving around individual study and piety taught by rabbis. Most Orthodox Jews see the rebuilding of the temple as a theoretical event to be undertaken by God when the Jewish people are deemed to deserve it and Judaism has traditionally forbidden making practical preparations of this kind. But the small group in this basement, members of a hardline fringe among Israel's religious nationalists, see that thinking as an excuse for inaction. "From the moment we see we're ready here, the clothes will be ready and the priests can get to work when the time comes," said Hagai Barashi, an assistant tailor. He wore a Biblical-looking robe, long sidelocks, and a pair of Nike flip-flops. The first member of the priestly class who came to be measured was Nachman Kahana, a local rabbi. He removed his black jacket, and tailor Aviad Jarufi, a small man in a white robe and horn-rimmed glasses, took out his green measuring tape. The priestly garments can't be sold off the rack _ Jewish law specifies that they must be made to measure. Yisrael Ariel, the rabbi who founded the Temple Institute, recited a traditional blessing, thanking God for "keeping us alive, and sustaining us, and enabling us to reach this time." Ariel, an expert on temple ritual who was present as a soldier when Israel captured the Old City from Jordan in 1967, is associated with the extreme flank of Israel's religious settlement movement. In the 1980s, he was the No. 2 man on a virulently anti-Arab parliamentary list that was eventually outlawed for racism. His institute is dedicated to recreating the implements used in the temple not only as a historical exercise but as a way to prepare for its reconstruction and, if possible, to speed up the process. In its 20 years of existence, the institute has recreated a golden seven-branched candelabra that cost $3 million, as well as harps, altars and containers for incense. Many of the objects are on display in the institute's museum, which also has a gift shop selling temple-themed souvenirs like puzzles, balsa-wood models and board games. There are also posters depicting the temple in Jerusalem, standing where the Dome of the Rock does now. Many see the agenda as explosive. "The more awareness you raise, and the more you stress that Judaism isn't real without the temple, the more you're encouraging conflict over holy space in Jerusalem," said Gershom Gorenberg, an Israeli historian and journalist who wrote, "The End of Days," a book about the struggle over the Temple Mount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/eb6815cd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/eb6815cd/attachment.gif From Tacticalmgt at aol.com Mon Jul 7 18:45:41 2008 From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com (Tacticalmgt at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 19:45:41 EDT Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1] Message-ID: Thanks for the kind replies guys! My ranch is about 25 acres, and as of right now, 16 horses. We have a small operation, but it is intensive. I have to hay and grain everyone daily, as well as do home vet care, breeding operations, and other things. In addition, I also work 40 hours a week in a professional job.... thanks guys **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/e950c9db/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 7 21:44:01 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:44:01 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... Message-ID: End the Exile! **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080707/8e995010/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Jul 8 05:21:14 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 06:21:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On sale now in Jerusalem: Priestly garments In-Reply-To: <0a5501c8e087$bbe409b0$33ac1d10$@com> References: <150372.31051.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4E98C6E454DB487E93F013AF6F93A58F@sherryPC> <0a5501c8e087$bbe409b0$33ac1d10$@com> Message-ID: <001001c8e0e4$5b872d10$0400a8c0@marvin> Last weekend the discussion was about moshiach among other things. Someone made the point that we just don't have all the understanding as to how God is going to restore Israel and Judea. Ephraim according to the text goes home, the world changes there focus to Jerusalem, the text suggest we will go to Jerusalem 3 times a year. If you read the quote below taken form this article, the odds are against Israel ever getting their hands on the temple mount.. building a temple is out of the question. My question.. and honest inquiry as to. How is this going to happen? What do you see in the text that tells you the sequence of events? Regardless of who Moshiach is upon his arrival... How is he going to change 1.5 billion minds? Do you really think in a world filled with people of a democratic mind set, they will listen and follow God? The last 5700 years teaches us that mankind refuse's to listen, so what is different now? I personally have faith and believe and I work to alter my life and thinking to follow God and his way as best I can. When that day arrives, I believe I will submit my will and follow completely because that is what is in my heart to do. However, most of the world is not like me or us here in this group... people who are searching and trying to find the way. 1.5 billion who stand in God's way another 1.5 billion or so who are in the christian camp who oppose God. What do you see taking place in the future to bring people to God? Adnan Husseini, formerly the top Muslim official at the site and now an adviser on Jerusalem affairs to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, called the work of such groups a "provocation." "If they talk about building the third temple, what does it mean? It means they will destroy the Islamic mosques," Husseini said. "And if they do, they will make 1.5 billion enemies. It is God's will that this is a place for Muslims to pray, and they must respect that." Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 7:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] On sale now in Jerusalem: Priestly garments On sale now in Jerusalem: Priestly garments The Associated Press Mon, Jul 7, 2008 (1:30 a.m.) Click here to find out more!In a stuffy basement off an Old City alleyway in Jerusalem, tailors using ancient texts as a blueprint have begun making a curious line of clothing they hope will be worn by priests in a reconstructed Jewish Temple. The project, run by a Jerusalem group called the Temple Institute, is part of an ideology that advocates making practical preparations for the rebuilding of the ancient temple on a disputed rectangle in Jerusalem sacred to both Jews and Muslims. Jews call the site the Temple Mount and venerate it as their holiest place. The temple itself was destroyed by Roman legions two millennia ago. For the past 1,300 years, the site has been home to Islam's third-holiest shrine, the Noble Sanctuary, including the golden Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque. These conflicting claims lie at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and past efforts to upset the status quo have erupted into violence. The Temple Institute has made priestly garments in the past for display in the small museum it runs in the Jewish Quarter, but those were hand-sewn and cost upward of $10,000 each. The institute recently received rabbinic permission to begin using sewing machines for the first time, bringing the cost down and allowing them to produce dozens or hundreds of garments, depending on how many orders come in. If you are a descendant of the Jewish priestly class, a full outfit, including an embroidered belt 32 cubits (48 feet) long, can be yours for about $800. "Before, the clothes we made were to go on display. Now we're engaged in the practical fulfillment of the divine commandment," said Yehuda Glick, the Temple Institute's director, at a ceremony marking the workshop's opening last week. The thread, six-ply flax, was purchased in India, and the diamond-patterned fabric was woven in Israel. The blue dye, which the Bible calls "tchelet," is made from the secretions of a snail found in the Mediterranean Sea, and the red color comes from an aphid found on local trees. The priests, made up of descendants of the Biblical figure Aaron, were an elite group entrusted with the temple and its rituals, such as sacrificing animals and making other offerings to God. The memory of belonging to that class has been preserved by Jews through the centuries. Their most common family name is "Cohen," meaning priest. The Temple Institute and similarly minded believers think those modern priests will soon have to resume the rituals of their ancestors in a rebuilt temple, and that by preparing their garments they are bringing that day closer. "The light of God is coming back, and it's happening before our eyes," Glick said. By sewing garments for the temple priests, his institute is "continuing a process that was neglected for 2,000 years," he said. The Temple Institute does not advocate violent action and says its activities are purely educational. But groups like the institute, however marginal, have played on Muslim fears that Jews plan to destroy their holy sites to pave the way for rebuilding the temple. Adnan Husseini, formerly the top Muslim official at the site and now an adviser on Jerusalem affairs to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, called the work of such groups a "provocation." "If they talk about building the third temple, what does it mean? It means they will destroy the Islamic mosques," Husseini said. "And if they do, they will make 1.5 billion enemies. It is God's will that this is a place for Muslims to pray, and they must respect that." The first Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Babylonians 2,500 years ago, and the second was leveled by the Romans in the year 70. Since then, the focus of the religion has changed drastically, from a temple-centered ritual of animal sacrifice led by priests to a faith revolving around individual study and piety taught by rabbis. Most Orthodox Jews see the rebuilding of the temple as a theoretical event to be undertaken by God when the Jewish people are deemed to deserve it and Judaism has traditionally forbidden making practical preparations of this kind. But the small group in this basement, members of a hardline fringe among Israel's religious nationalists, see that thinking as an excuse for inaction. "From the moment we see we're ready here, the clothes will be ready and the priests can get to work when the time comes," said Hagai Barashi, an assistant tailor. He wore a Biblical-looking robe, long sidelocks, and a pair of Nike flip-flops. The first member of the priestly class who came to be measured was Nachman Kahana, a local rabbi. He removed his black jacket, and tailor Aviad Jarufi, a small man in a white robe and horn-rimmed glasses, took out his green measuring tape. The priestly garments can't be sold off the rack _ Jewish law specifies that they must be made to measure. Yisrael Ariel, the rabbi who founded the Temple Institute, recited a traditional blessing, thanking God for "keeping us alive, and sustaining us, and enabling us to reach this time." Ariel, an expert on temple ritual who was present as a soldier when Israel captured the Old City from Jordan in 1967, is associated with the extreme flank of Israel's religious settlement movement. In the 1980s, he was the No. 2 man on a virulently anti-Arab parliamentary list that was eventually outlawed for racism. His institute is dedicated to recreating the implements used in the temple not only as a historical exercise but as a way to prepare for its reconstruction and, if possible, to speed up the process. In its 20 years of existence, the institute has recreated a golden seven-branched candelabra that cost $3 million, as well as harps, altars and containers for incense. Many of the objects are on display in the institute's museum, which also has a gift shop selling temple-themed souvenirs like puzzles, balsa-wood models and board games. There are also posters depicting the temple in Jerusalem, standing where the Dome of the Rock does now. Many see the agenda as explosive. "The more awareness you raise, and the more you stress that Judaism isn't real without the temple, the more you're encouraging conflict over holy space in Jerusalem," said Gershom Gorenberg, an Israeli historian and journalist who wrote, "The End of Days," a book about the struggle over the Temple Mount. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/f3fc4804/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/f3fc4804/attachment.gif From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 8 09:33:08 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:33:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Mediterranean Union In-Reply-To: References: <070720080237.828.4871817F0002CEE00000033C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C079909020704@att.net> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chris fordham Date: Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM Subject: Fwd: Mediterranean Union To: Chris and Amber I was reading a news report from Israel earlier tonight and it contained a reference to the new President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, and his proposed Mediterranean Union. I went to Google and found the following article, which unfortunately I could not copy and paste, but I was able to copy/paste the link, which is below. In light of prophecy, this is an interesting development. If the Beast's empire is a revived Roman Empire, shouldn't it more nearly resemble that empire (surrounding the Mediterranean) than the present membership of the EU? Watch for further developments in this sphere! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Union -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/496a6467/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 8 12:04:46 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:04:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch! A picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... End the Exile! _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/420eff52/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 8 12:12:53 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:12:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Message-ID: <2A58D2EFD8804210B3B27AB8C5BF87AE@bettygivin> Dear friends, As you know I have been off list for awhile, not because that is my choice, but because it is a necessary fact of life due to my dreadful ( yet financially beneficial) workload doing catastrophe insurance claims from my home computer 12, sometimes 16+ hours a day 6 days a week! When I did briefly check in on Sunday, I cannot tell you the feelings that crossed my mind and pricked my heart.no way to put them into words. I too have been on this list almost since the beginning, and have known Ross for nearly 20 years and some of you that long as well..many of us have been friends for years, and some of us are finding newly-found friends and creating beautiful friendships. Basically, it seems that the list does have its ebb and flow, but the bottom line to me is that we are all connected in a deeper way than we may realize.. Certainly we are in different places, have different opinions, but it seems that as several have pointed out, we have all been drawn to Torah and the One G-d of Israel. Who says that we all have to agree anyway? Personally, I wish these email 'conversations' (and quite frankly, I have not read thru them all) could have taken place in a face to face discussion. Then we could all 'hug and have a meal together and make up.' It is very "Jewish," if I could use the term loosely and not offend anyone, to disagree.we have all heard the phrase about 4 Jews in a room and 5 opinions! Even though I have formally converted to Judaism, I still consider myself as a lost triber and have in no way lost my love or respect for Yeshua. He was after all my first rabbi. In another post, perhaps I will feel the liberty to share with all of you a beautiful dream that I had along those lines.one that still is as fresh and as moving to me as when I first had it about 18 years ago.Some among us are more attached to Yeshua than others, and I am not going to get into any of my personal opinions here.I have already done that in a public way in other posts.and as I said in the beginning, it is not my agenda to bring others to where I stand.I still have a lot of unanswered questions and am still growing myself.as I hope we all are Anyway, didn't mean to ramble.but as I went to sleep last night, I couldn't get all of this out of my mind.and I kept seeing the picture you sent, Hanoch, in the back of my mind.it looked like the Kavod over Yerushalayim and the Western Wall, the place where HaShem chose to place His Name.and it did give me Peace, just as you wished it upon all of us. Hopefully, we can all continue to join hands and be there together one day. And as far as the list, I may be absent from time to time because I have to, but I am certainly not planning on giving up! There is too much at stake, and I love each and every one of you! We and I suppose I should say I choose to continue just trying to get up every morning, and do all that I can do, and pray that HaShem will lead me in His Path. I do, BTW, pray for many of you individually as you come to mind as well as for all of us corporately as I put on my tallit, outstretch my hands and picture all of us under HaShem's protection. and pray the Aaronic Benediction for us and for all of HaShem's children scattered throughout our land and even unto the four corners of the earth! May we meet at the Wall and pray together in our day and in our time.May HaShem will that it be so! With deepest love and gratitude for our G-d who has given us His Torah and each other! Much, much love and many, many blessings, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/8e4557ea/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 12:14:19 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13870.25867.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I agree our sister Elisheva, ? Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there would be any problem with me putting it on my website. ? Love you all, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch!? A picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! ? Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, ? Elisheva/Betty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... ? End the Exile! Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/36dcd6e7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 8 12:25:16 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:25:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: <13870.25867.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CAAF36B82E25D2-1220-25C5@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> Hey Tracy - ??? It's actually readily available on the Internet, and is NOT proprietary, so feel free to use it (I think I got it off a Breslov website - and I can't even remember WHY I had gone there..).? In any case, please notice what is NOT in the upper left hand corner....and that's where the Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple) will be.... ?? Brachot, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 1:14 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... I agree our sister Elisheva, ? Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there would be any problem with me putting it on my website. ? Love you all, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch!? A picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! ? Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, ? Elisheva/Betty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... ? End the Exile! Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/bfb50df3/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 12:57:37 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: <8CAAF36B82E25D2-1220-25C5@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3493.47672.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Hanoch, ? Thanks Hanoch. It, apparently, is our prayer place -?which prayer, will change the present scenery there.?For now though,?I won't have to look at that "Dome" in the background. ? I hope to stand arm in arm?with you there this fall, praying together [HaShem Willing]. I will have on my tefillin and talit when I'm there. ? As brother Steve so appropriately calls some of us, part of the "first contingency" of returning Ephraimites. If HaShem be willing, may I?stand?there with you, my?long lost brother, a Judahite.? ? May such a site be, and may we all on this dialogue, be a 'microcosm' of the 'macrocosm' that is to soon burst forth?onto the world stage. ? Brachot, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:25 PM Hey Tracy - ? ??? It's actually readily available on the Internet, and is NOT proprietary, so feel free to use it (I think I got it off a Breslov website - and I can't even remember WHY I had gone there..).? In any case, please notice what is NOT in the upper left hand corner....and that's where the Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple) will be.... ?? Brachot, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 1:14 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... I agree our sister Elisheva, ? Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there would be any problem with me putting it on my website. ? Love you all, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 _filtered #yiv308762875 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 #yiv308762875 p.MsoNormal, #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 li.MsoNormal, #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 div.MsoNormal {margin:0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 a:link, #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 a:visited, #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 p {margin-right:0pt;margin-left:0pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 _filtered #yiv308762875 {margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}#yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 div.Section1 {} Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch!? A picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! ? Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, ? Elisheva/Betty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... ? End the Exile! Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/e969a3c6/attachment.html From levi at leviyisrael.com Tue Jul 8 13:03:53 2008 From: levi at leviyisrael.com (Levi Yisrael) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: <3493.47672.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <3493.47672.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4873AC09.6010207@leviyisrael.com> Tracy, You are planning on going this Fall? Levi Tracy Osborne wrote: > > Shalom Hanoch, > > > > Thanks Hanoch. It, apparently, is our prayer place - which prayer, > will change the present scenery there. For now though, I won't have to > look at that "Dome" in the background. > > > > I hope to stand arm in arm with you there this fall, praying together > /[HaShem Willing]/. I will have on my tefillin and talit when I'm there. > > > > As brother Steve so appropriately calls some of us, part of the "first > contingency" of returning Ephraimites. If HaShem be willing, may > I stand there with you, my long lost brother, a Judahite. > > > > May such a site be, and may we all on this dialogue, be a 'microcosm' > of the 'macrocosm' that is to soon burst forth onto the world stage. > > > > Brachot, > > > > Tracy > > > > --- On *Tue, 7/8/08, youngbarzel at aol.com //* wrote: > > From: youngbarzel at aol.com > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:25 PM > > Hey Tracy - > > It's actually readily available on the Internet, and is NOT > proprietary, so feel free to use it (I think I got it off a > Breslov website - and I can't even remember WHY I had gone > there..). In any case, please notice what is *NOT* in the upper > left hand corner....and that's where the Bet HaMikdash (Holy > Temple) will be.... > > Brachot, > */Hanoch/* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tracy Osborne > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 1:14 pm > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... > > I agree our sister Elisheva, > > Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there would be > any problem with me putting it on my website. > > Love you all, > > Tracy > > --- On *Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin / >/* wrote: > > From: Betty Givin > > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM > > Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch! A picture > truly is worth a thousand words!!! > > Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, > > Elisheva/Betty > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] *On Behalf Of > *YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Something to think of.... > > /End the Exile!/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars > . > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/274602df/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 8 13:15:05 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: <4873AC09.6010207@leviyisrael.com> Message-ID: <924316.63090.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> That's what I'm thinking thus far - in October??? -?still praying and waiting for HaShems directive. ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Levi Yisrael wrote: From: Levi Yisrael Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 1:03 PM Tracy,? You are planning on going this Fall? Levi Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom Hanoch, ? Thanks Hanoch. It, apparently, is our prayer place -?which prayer, will change the present scenery there.?For now though,?I won't have to look at that "Dome" in the background. ? I hope to stand arm in arm?with you there this fall, praying together [HaShem Willing]. I will have on my tefillin and talit when I'm there. ? As brother Steve so appropriately calls some of us, part of the "first contingency" of returning Ephraimites. If HaShem be willing, may I?stand?there with you, my?long lost brother, a Judahite.? ? May such a site be, and may we all on this dialogue, be a 'microcosm' of the 'macrocosm' that is to soon burst forth?onto the world stage. ? Brachot, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:25 PM Hey Tracy - ? ??? It's actually readily available on the Internet, and is NOT proprietary, so feel free to use it (I think I got it off a Breslov website - and I can't even remember WHY I had gone there..).? In any case, please notice what is NOT in the upper left hand corner....and that's where the Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple) will be.... ?? Brachot, ??????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 1:14 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... I agree our sister Elisheva, ? Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there would be any problem with me putting it on my website. ? Love you all, ? Tracy --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM #yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 _filtered #yiv308762875 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 #yiv308762875 p.MsoNormal, #yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 li.MsoNormal, #yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 div.MsoNormal {margin:0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 a:link, #yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 a:visited, #yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 p {margin-right:0pt;margin-left:0pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 span.EmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 _filtered #yiv308762875 {margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}#yiv138090439 #yiv1963123715 #AOLMsgPart_3_dba83d56-b5d5-430c-9a94-b82b75d63974 #yiv308762875 div.Section1 {} Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch!? A picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! ? Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, ? Elisheva/Betty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... ? End the Exile! Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/7f4b2c25/attachment.html From levi at leviyisrael.com Tue Jul 8 13:19:53 2008 From: levi at leviyisrael.com (Levi Yisrael) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 13:19:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... In-Reply-To: <924316.63090.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <924316.63090.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4873AFC9.5080006@leviyisrael.com> That's great Tracy. I was hoping to go back this year but it's looking like next May unless I get the funds earlier. Blessings Levi Tracy Osborne wrote: > > That's what I'm thinking thus far - in October??? - still praying and > waiting for HaShems directive. > > > > Tracy > > --- On *Tue, 7/8/08, Levi Yisrael //* wrote: > > From: Levi Yisrael > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 1:03 PM > > Tracy, You are planning on going this Fall? > > Levi > > > Tracy Osborne wrote: >> >> Shalom Hanoch, >> >> >> >> Thanks Hanoch. It, apparently, is our prayer place - which >> prayer, will change the present scenery there. For now though, I >> won't have to look at that "Dome" in the background. >> >> >> >> I hope to stand arm in arm with you there this fall, praying >> together /[HaShem Willing]/. I will have on my tefillin and talit >> when I'm there. >> >> >> >> As brother Steve so appropriately calls some of us, part of the >> "first contingency" of returning Ephraimites. If HaShem be >> willing, may I stand there with you, my long lost brother, a >> Judahite. >> >> >> >> May such a site be, and may we all on this dialogue, be a >> 'microcosm' of the 'macrocosm' that is to soon burst forth onto >> the world stage. >> >> >> >> Brachot, >> >> >> >> Tracy >> >> >> >> --- On *Tue, 7/8/08, youngbarzel at aol.com //* >> wrote: >> >> From: youngbarzel at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:25 PM >> >> Hey Tracy - >> >> It's actually readily available on the Internet, and is >> NOT proprietary, so feel free to use it (I think I got it off >> a Breslov website - and I can't even remember WHY I had gone >> there..). In any case, please notice what is *NOT* in the >> upper left hand corner....and that's where the Bet HaMikdash >> (Holy Temple) will be.... >> >> Brachot, >> */Hanoch/* >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tracy Osborne >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 1:14 pm >> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... >> >> I agree our sister Elisheva, >> >> Hanoch, I wonder where you go this and I wonder if there >> would be any problem with me putting it on my website. >> >> Love you all, >> >> Tracy >> >> --- On *Tue, 7/8/08, Betty Givin /> >/* wrote: >> >> From: Betty Givin > > >> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:04 PM >> >> Beautiful, most lovely and most inspiring, Hanoch! A >> picture truly is worth a thousand words!!! >> >> Toda rabba and shalom be with us all, >> >> Elisheva/Betty >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] *On Behalf >> Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com >> *Sent:* Monday, July 07, 2008 9:44 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Something to think of.... >> >> /End the Exile!/ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for >> fuel-efficient used cars >> . >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the >> TMZ Toolbar Now >> ! >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/bfc13f73/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 8 16:27:21 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 17:27:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Humanizing the Murderer Message-ID: <8CAAF588A5FDA22-7B4-3BA@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> Shalom, ???????? This is from the Honest Reporting list (check out www.honestreporting.com ) and it's called: "Humanizing the Murderer." ????????? Hanoch Dear HonestReporting Subscriber, In the immediate aftermath of the Palestinian bulldozer rampage, which killed three Israelis and injured dozens more, HonestReporting focused on the headlines on the BBC?s website. The headlines?went from "Israel bulldozer driver shot dead" to "Bulldozer rampage hits Jerusalem" and finally settled on "Deadly Jerusalem bulldozer attack." The BBC, however, was not the only media outlet that raised eyebrows with its coverage. Numerous news outlets, including newspapers that provided otherwise honest and fair coverage of the day's events, placed surprising emphasis on the attacker's motives to humanize him and "explain" his actions. The British Daily Telegraph?for example, noted that the attacker, Hussam Dwayat, "never recovered from a doomed romance with a young Jewish woman." The Toronto Star?added that Dwayat "had been fined $50,000 for building his house without a permit, and a demolition order was on file?That might explain Dwaith?s motivation in the attack."? A Jerusalem Post?editorial took a good look at some of the other offenders: Why did Hussam Taysir Dwayat do it? The hasty and erroneous answer offered by an overwhelming number of news outlets amounted to: "It's the occupation, stupid." That is the type of "context" one would expect from Al-Jazeera, which described the rampage as an "operation." ? Yet even the otherwise fine coverage provided by The New York Times?was marred, apparently by editors, who inserted a tendentious paragraph about... bulldozers: "Caterpillar equipment has a special resonance among Palestinians. Human rights activists have lobbied the company to stop selling its heavy vehicles to the Israeli military out of concern that they have been used to demolish Palestinian homes, uproot orchards and construct Jewish settlements in occupied land." ? Reuters?unhelpfully contrasted Israel's supposed oppression of Palestinians generally with its maltreatment of Jerusalem Arabs: "Unlike Palestinians in the blockaded Gaza Strip and in the occupied West Bank, those living in occupied east Jerusalem have free access to the Jewish west of the city and to Israel." The wire service added that it found no evidence that Dwayat was a "guerrilla."? Meanwhile, the BBC?s coverage of the bulldozer attack did elicit an apology? but not the one we would have liked. While BBC news editor Craig Oliver explained his decision to air the footage, the BBC instead apologized for showing images of the killing of the terrorist in the bulldozer, saying it was ?wrong? to screen the video and that the images ?failed to strike the right editorial balance.? Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick?noted that?the bulldozer attack was only the second Palestinian attack on Israelis to be?preserved on film -?the first was?the bloody?lynching of two?IDF reservists in the first days of the second Intifada in 2000. Both cases, she added, drew?apologies from the networks that showed them. In this case, as in the case of the lynching eight years ago, the reason the BBC apologized is not because the film's images were too gruesome, but because it strayed from the accepted narratives of the Palestinian war against Israel. To maintain the narratives, "the right editorial balance between the demands of accuracy and the potential impact on the program's audience," is one that engenders the belief that Israel is either morally indistinguishable from the Palestinians, or that Israel is morally inferior to the Palestinians. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/55b37319/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Jul 8 19:17:25 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:17:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Mediterranean Union In-Reply-To: References: <070720080237.828.4871817F0002CEE00000033C22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9C079909020704@att.net> Message-ID: <00af01c8e159$2bb329c0$0400a8c0@marvin> Chris, It will be interesting to see what is reported on the 13-14, July 2008. thanks _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:33 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Mediterranean Union ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chris fordham Date: Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:32 AM Subject: Fwd: Mediterranean Union To: Chris and Amber I was reading a news report from Israel earlier tonight and it contained a reference to the new President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, and his proposed Mediterranean Union. I went to Google and found the following article, which unfortunately I could not copy and paste, but I was able to copy/paste the link, which is below. In light of prophecy, this is an interesting development. If the Beast's empire is a revived Roman Empire, shouldn't it more nearly resemble that empire (surrounding the Mediterranean) than the present membership of the EU? Watch for further developments in this sphere! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Union -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080708/d4db1bc7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 9 07:50:28 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 08:50:28 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] At last, someone is finally thinking clearly! Message-ID: Boker tov, From today's Arutz-7 (_www.israelnationalnews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ) - Hanoch MK Eldad on Hizbullah Swap: "Bomb Them" by Ze'ev Ben-Yechiel MK Aryeh Eldad (NU/NRP) would like to see Israel release Samir Kuntar ? then send him to his Maker. "We know that the Lebanese and the Hizbullah are going to put up a huge celebration for Samir Kuntar," Eldad said in a an interview to be aired Wednesday night with _IsraelNationalRadio_ (http://trailer.web-view.net/Links/0XE6E2A394DCDB96A560CD7DD0D3D191A945AF62E6E660971DB4F1D256B362D54 1E443C0FC36273AA5FAAD0683DB223FE8F75FB463F43BF3668186735DBD637488.htm) 's Tovia Singer. "A right-wing, Zionist government in Israel would send four F-16's to participate in the celebrations for Samir Kuntar, and kill everyone who participated, including Samir," he explained. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/ccfb53f7/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 14:55:48 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:55:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections In-Reply-To: <2A58D2EFD8804210B3B27AB8C5BF87AE@bettygivin> References: <2A58D2EFD8804210B3B27AB8C5BF87AE@bettygivin> Message-ID: Thanks Betty for your prayers! That means a lot knowing others are praying for you! We also pray for everyone on the list. We respect everyone's opinion and love everyone where they are. We understand about being busy! We do not get to check in daily either. We just got back in town from a 4-day trip and miss a lot. We do try and catch up but it is hard sometimes. Chris and Amber On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > As you know I have been off list for awhile, not because that is my choice, > but because it is a necessary fact of life due to my dreadful ( yet > financially beneficial) workload doing catastrophe insurance claims from my > home computer 12, sometimes 16+ hours a day 6 days a week! > > > > When I did briefly check in on Sunday, I cannot tell you the feelings that > crossed my mind and pricked my heart?no way to put them into words? > > > > I too have been on this list almost since the beginning, and have known > Ross for nearly 20 years and some of you that long as well..many of us have > been friends for years, and some of us are finding newly-found friends and > creating beautiful friendships. Basically, it seems that the list does have > its ebb and flow, but the bottom line to me is that we are all connected in > a deeper way than we may realize.. Certainly we are in different places, > have different opinions, but it seems that as several have pointed out, we > have all been drawn to Torah and the One G-d of Israel. > > > > Who says that we all have to agree anyway? Personally, I wish these email > 'conversations' (and quite frankly, I have not read thru them all) could > have taken place in a face to face discussion. Then we could all 'hug and > have a meal together and make up.' It is very "Jewish," if I could use the > term loosely and not offend anyone, to disagree?we have all heard the phrase > about 4 Jews in a room and 5 opinions! > > > > Even though I have formally converted to Judaism, I still consider myself > as a lost triber and have in no way lost my love or respect for Yeshua. He > was after all my first rabbi. In another post, perhaps I will feel the > liberty to share with all of you a beautiful dream that I had along those > lines?one that still is as fresh and as moving to me as when I first had it > about 18 years ago?Some among us are more attached to Yeshua than others, > and I am not going to get into any of my personal opinions here?I have > already done that in a public way in other posts?and as I said in the > beginning, it is not my agenda to bring others to where I stand?I still have > a lot of unanswered questions and am still growing myself?as I hope we all > are > > > > Anyway, didn't mean to ramble?but as I went to sleep last night, I couldn't > get all of this out of my mind?and I kept seeing the picture you sent, > Hanoch, in the back of my mind?it looked like the Kavod over Yerushalayim > and the Western Wall, the place where HaShem chose to place His Name?and it > did give me Peace, just as you wished it upon all of us. > > > > Hopefully, we can all continue to join hands and be there together one > day. And as far as the list, I may be absent from time to time because I > have to, but I am certainly not planning on giving up! There is too much at > stake, and I love each and every one of you! We and I suppose I should say > I choose to continue just trying to get up every morning, and do all that I > can do, and pray that HaShem will lead me in His Path. > > > > I do, BTW, pray for many of you individually as you come to mind as well as > for all of us corporately as I put on my tallit, outstretch my hands and > picture all of us under HaShem's protection? and pray the Aaronic > Benediction for us and for all of HaShem's children scattered throughout our > land and even unto the four corners of the earth! > > > > May we meet at the Wall and pray together in our day and in our time?May > HaShem will that it be so! > > > > With deepest love and gratitude for our G-d who has given us His Torah and > each other! > > > > Much, much love and many, many blessings, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/254916fc/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 15:09:39 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:09:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the Rebbe, Moshiach, Kaballah and Chassidus In-Reply-To: <48704F66.2070102@westnet.com.au> References: <48704F66.2070102@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks Joe for the website! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:51 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > I meant to say " information centre" > > *My apologies > JOE. > * > http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.php?page=qaforumindex > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/30ef336b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 15:11:02 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:11:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3. In-Reply-To: <48704C79.4010102@westnet.com.au> References: <48704C79.4010102@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks Joe for these articles. We have not read them yet but are printing them off so we can read them together. Chris and Amber On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *The suffering of Moshiach III * > > > * > The past two weeks we have discussed Biblical, Talmudic and mystical > passages testifying that, according to Jewish tradition, part of the process > for the revelation of Moshiach includes a period of intense suffering and > severe illness for Moshiach. Two basic reasons have been offered by the > scholars. Last week, we considered the first, that Moshiach, as a leader, > was intimately tied to, responsible for and affected by the actions his > people. > > The second reason for Moshiach's illness concerns Moshiach himself, how an > individual becomes the king and Redeemer of the Jewish people and, after > that, all mankind. The process of becoming Moshiach represents a > transformation of the individual. In order for Moshiach to move to the next > stage, he must, in a sense, cease being who he was. As with any change in an > individual's status - whether an alteration in external circumstances or the > internal trauma of the stages of life - Moshiach's metamorphosis from simply > being a wise and holy man to the actual king and redeemer involves an > upheaval, an imbalance. > > For this reason, the time of the coming of Moshiach is often referred to as > the "birthpangs of Moshiach," for just as the labor and delivery of a > newborn involves a tremendous, difficult struggle, so, too the emergence of > Moshiach may well require a painful disruption of previous conditions, > leading to confusion, agitation and disorder. Naturally, this convulsion > would affect both the generation - and Moshiach himself. > > Rabbi Schneur Zalman, known as the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chabad > Chassidism, explains, in a brief but insightful discourse, why there is > upheaval before Moshiach is fully revealed, and what his illness will be > like. The Jewish people are considered one entity, one body - a complete > individual. Each and every Jew, he says, has a unique function, a Divine > service particular to that person alone, whether of an intellectual, > emotional or physical nature. Without each and every individual, the Jewish > people would not be whole. What affects one, affects all. > > Naturally, however, what happens to the head has the most far-reaching > repercussions; and the consequences of , G-d forbid, an injury elsewhere are > measured in the head, so to speak. By analogy, what happens to the > individual who is the head, the leader of the generation, will happen to the > generation itself. And what befalls the generation, will befall the leader. > That is, the leader of the generation, but particularly Moshiach, is the > microcosmic reflection of the macrocosmic situation and experience of the > generation. > > Now, when a soul occupies a body, it "dwells," so to speak, in the brain, > and from there guides the limbs in an orderly fashion. There is peace > between each of the parts. Each organ performs its function, responding to > the directions of the soul. But when, G-d forbid, there is a problem in the > brain, when the blood cannot flow back and forth properly, this spreads to > all the other limbs and their functions and situations become confused. When > the head is so afflicted, the limbs of the body cannot respond properly. > There is a numbness, an inability of the body and mind to communicate; > indeed, though the mind may be active, though each individual organ - heart, > liver, etc. - may be healthy and working, nevertheless the individual seems > to be in a coma, apparently detached and disconnected from the outside > world. > > This condition of apparently internal paralysis or bewilderment and outer > unconsciousness has a parallel in the state of the Jewish people at the time > of greatest darkness and coldness. That is, just as the deepest blackness of > the night occurs just before the emergence of the dawn, so too the disarray > among the Jewish people - the inability to abide another's Divine service, > though performed according to Jewish law, the entanglement of good and evil, > is strongest. just before Moshiach. > > For, the Alter Rebbe points out, there is sometimes a need for this chaos > and bewilderment, painful and difficult as it is for the individual enduring > it, or the Jewish people experiencing it. Sometimes when the G-dly light, > the Divine soul, needs to shine forth, to be revealed, in a categorically > new form and manner, then, just as the darkness thickens before the light, > or labor is most intense before birth - just as all attention and effort > focuses on the profound transformational struggle - so too, within the > individual there will be a great confusion and internal dissension. The > transition - the great difference - between the old and the new spiritual > status may require a traumatic internal upheaval, and a consequent seclusion > and isolation from the outside world. > > But after the darkness, there is light. After the birthpangs, there is a > new life. And after the transformational sickness, there will be Moshiach, > the King and Redeemer, who will harmonize, transform and spiritually elevate > his generation, the one that will have knowledge of the Lord as the waters > cover the seabed. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/4cd54b2b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 15:14:05 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:14:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not > realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings > have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe > they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of > denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance > concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has > a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including > Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is > still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to > as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: > > ** > *"..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let > us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for > us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5* > ** > ** > *"...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are > fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut > down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9* > ** > ** > *"...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they > together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20* > ** > ** > *"The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda > shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13* > ** > ** > *"Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading > flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of > those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1* > ** > ** > *"The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under > feet...." Is 28:3* > ** > ** > *"...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their > doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of > harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos > 5:3-4* > ** > ** > *"And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return > to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a > silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10* > ** > ** > *"....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos > 9:11* > ** > ** > *"Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2* > ** > ** > *"..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy > way..." Hos 10:13* > ** > ** > *"Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with > deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." > Hos 12:1-2* > ** > ** > *"And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: > in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos > 12:9* > ** > ** > It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say > concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the > shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com > > For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning > adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the > word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." > > While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son > was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very > sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in > agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. > Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added > to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, > these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children > from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the > examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family > dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family > unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, > as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong > families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a > light unto all the nations of the earth. > > Avigail/Pat > > > > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' > > Shalom v'boker tov - > > I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base > when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in > Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. > politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and > George McGovern. > > The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a > 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my > daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I > want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. > > However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not > violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting > the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish > concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these > concepts in the *Torah*.... > > And I think this - *Torah*, is the real heart of the issue. There are > those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, > consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived > for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how *they *do > it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have *some > * role in *their* personal Torah observance. > > Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT > AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to > realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best > of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study > Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and > understand everything. > > Just some venting at 5:15am.... > > *Hanoch* > > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/948c9433/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 15:45:23 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:45:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] ||MoshiachFacts|| - Torah Sources about Chabad Lubavitch, the... In-Reply-To: <4D3AD3F0-5D86-43C4-A25C-1B384BDBDF48@earthlink.net> References: <4D3AD3F0-5D86-43C4-A25C-1B384BDBDF48@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks James for this article/website. We will try and read it tonight. Do you have one on Paul also? We have been trying to study this topic some since it was brought up in the past. Chris On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:00 AM, James Tabor wrote: > Hanoch and all, > I actually think it is a very interesting discussion and one that fits > Dialogue and its purposes very well. I think Ross would agree. Many scholars > in my field have commented that what Chabad is going through gives us great > sociological insights in terms of group dynamics "when prophecy fails," that > help us to understand what happened in those first 20 years after the death > of the Nazarene, before Paul came along and transferred things to the > heavenly realms. > > BTW, I have an article/paper on my university Web site that might be > relevant to this, though it deals more with Qumran/DSS, titled "Dead > Messiahs Who Don't Return." Kind of blunt but it makes the point I think. > > http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/deadmessiahs.html > > Yes, the little snail we found has great significance because it is IN > Jerusalem, at 2nd Temple levels, which we are right over now, in an area of > the city we have to assume the priests lived. We are right in the area where > the HP Caiaphus was reputed to live. Who knows, maybe we are right over his > house! The two traditional sites, St Peter of Gallicantu (Church of the Cock > Crowing) and the Caiaphus house in the Armenian quarter really do not fit > the descriptions we have from early Christian pilgrims as to location. > Gallicantu is right across the modern road from our site, but in my view too > low into the valley. I think the HP's house would need a view of the Temple. > Likewise, the palatial mansion in the Jewish Quarter, that Pixner identified > as that of Caiaphus, would not be able to even see the Temple--it is just by > the Burnt House. I think in a few weeks, but certainly by next summer > season, we will have our own "burnt house," or probably burnt houses. Ours > is an amazing site. > > Have a good week! > > James > > > On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:45 AM, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: > > Boker tov James, > > Welcome back from the Land flowing in Milk & Honey. You made several > excellent points, especially about the 'accepted' variations of Halachic > practice of 2nd Temple Jewry. When I wrote the terms 'traditional and > normative,' I was referring only to the modern era - today. There's no > telling what I would have been like (or believed) in 2nd Temple times! :-) > Maybe I would have followed the path of my namesake ('Hanoch' is the Hebrew > of 'Enoch,' for those not following the 'inside joke' here)!! > > There IS however, a very split opinion (within Modern Jewish groups) > now of the Chabad view that the Rebbe IS Mashiach. This is really not the > forum for me to have brought this up in, and I should have just sent a > private note to my dear achi (brother), Joe; but....I didn't..... > > The Rebbe was a fabulous Jewish leader, who had helped many Jews learn > about Judaism, by dispatching shlichim (emissaries) throughout the world. > Is Chabad "orthopraxic?" Sure they are, but I would just point out that I do > not believe that there is a "messianic faction" within the movement. Only > those who are open about it, and those who do not speak to 'outsiders' about > those beliefs. But, this really isn't the forum for me to have brought this > up. > > Best regards, and congratulations on the techelet find! > > B'Ahava, > *Hanoch* > > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/b02bfdd8/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 15:57:03 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:57:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for recommending another book Hanoch! Can't get enough books these days! So Exciting! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 8:54 AM, wrote: > Hey Marvin - > > Although the article is indeed interesting - I HIGHLY recommend reading > Professor Knohl's book: *The Messiah before Jesus; The Suffering Servant > of the Dead Sea Scrolls* It is a short book, but is full of information > and insight and is very well written. In one of those, 'I can't believe > this coincidence' sort of thing, I just finished the book on Shabbat; only > to later read the article (which I forwarded to the list), from the *New > York Times! * > ** > Your comments about ear wax flying is an understatement of people's > potential reactions!! :-) We are living in very interesting times, my > friend..... > > Best regards, > *Hanoch* > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/0c26ebee/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 9 16:01:56 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:01:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAB01E27B85218-4E4-2E1C@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com> Hey Chris & Amber - ????? You're very welcome; and yes, we can never have enough books!? :-)? Actually, when I get a little time I will write some mini-reviews of a?number of books that I've recently read that I think the folks on this list would find very interesting.? Oh, and don't forget to check you PO Box soon, too!? :-) ????? Best regards, ??????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: chris fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection Thanks for recommending another book Hanoch!? Can't get enough books these days!? So Exciting!? Chris and Amber Fordham ? On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 8:54 AM, wrote: Hey Marvin - ? ????Although the article is indeed interesting - I HIGHLY recommend reading Professor Knohl's book: The Messiah before Jesus; The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls? It is a short book, but is full of information and insight and is very well written.? In one of those, 'I can't believe this coincidence' sort of thing, I just finished the book on Shabbat; only to later read the article (which I forwarded to the list), from the New York Times!? ? ????Your comments about ear wax flying is an understatement of people's potential reactions!!? :-)? We are living in very interesting times, my friend..... ? ????Best regards, ????????????Hanoch Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/a9640058/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 16:05:55 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:05:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection In-Reply-To: <8CAB01E27B85218-4E4-2E1C@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAB01E27B85218-4E4-2E1C@mblk-d34.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: THANK YOU!!!! WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE A LIST OF BOOKS. HOW MANY BOOKS ARE OUT BY DR. JAMES TAYBOR? CHRIS AND AMBER On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 5:01 PM, wrote: > Hey Chris & Amber - > > You're very welcome; and yes, we can *never *have enough books! > :-) Actually, when I get a little time I will write some mini-reviews of > a number of books that I've recently read that I think the folks on this > list would find very interesting. Oh, and don't forget to check you PO Box > soon, too! :-) > > Best regards, > *Hanoch* > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: chris fordham > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 4:57 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Messiah & Resurrection > > Thanks for recommending another book Hanoch! Can't get enough books > these days! So Exciting! Chris and Amber Fordham > > > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 8:54 AM, wrote: > >> Hey Marvin - >> >> Although the article is indeed interesting - I HIGHLY recommend >> reading Professor Knohl's book: *The Messiah before Jesus; The Suffering >> Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls* It is a short book, but is full of >> information and insight and is very well written. In one of those, 'I can't >> believe this coincidence' sort of thing, I just finished the book on >> Shabbat; only to later read the article (which I forwarded to the list), >> from the *New York Times! * >> ** >> Your comments about ear wax flying is an understatement of people's >> potential reactions!! :-) We are living in very interesting times, my >> friend..... >> >> Best regards, >> *Hanoch* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used >> cars . >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/3496e75c/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 16:15:35 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 17:15:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] VERY appropriate YouTube video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for this Hanoch! Chris On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:48 AM, wrote: > Shalom L'Kulchem, > > I just stumbled across this video on YouTube; please watch it... > > Shabbat Shalom, > *Hanoch* > Click here: YouTube - IDF Tribute > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/727d28cb/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 19:39:50 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:39:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had not intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. Also I was not encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even encouraging attending a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls someone that way, they need to do it, of course. I had more in mind the wealth of information out there - if we are truly looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are wonderful Jewish authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes to mind. I just feel very strongly that we need to remember the things HaSHem says about us (as Ephraimites) that really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of course, we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need to approach our Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the great respect they deserve for having zealously guarded, studied, taught about, and died for Torah these thousands of years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many of us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long way from where we once were, but I still think we are extremely proud of ourselves and all we think we have to offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed offer Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His Lost Tribes be regathered, and that it is necessary that we return and again become The Whole House of Israel, for the sake of the world at large..........but I wonder what we actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just something I wonder about, if anyone has some ideas. My love your very precious family, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/5833413a/attachment.html From plmorrow at juno.com Wed Jul 9 19:39:52 2008 From: plmorrow at juno.com (Patricia L. Morrow) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:39:52 GMT Subject: [Dialogue] Something to think of.... Message-ID: <20080709.203952.3665.3@webmail02.dca.untd.com> GORGEOUS photo! I've actually had this on my PC as wallpaper after I stumbled across it months ago. ____________________________________________________________ Fabulous Spa Getaway! Enter for your chance to WIN great beauty prizes everyday! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/JKFkuJNzuPk8ckXcsqzSB8L8hESCTrG8eHGWRjgZL1IUMG4BAsLPhR/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/3bea11f6/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 9 20:16:09 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 21:16:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It didn't sound as intense as you think. Sometimes we just get passionate about certain topics. We think people should convert if that's where HaShem leads them. We have several friends who have converted and we think that is great. It didn't sound like you were trying to force people to do this. We think everyone should at least visit a synaguogue. We have enjoyed Aish for 3 years now. It is one of our favorite websites. We love their Jewlarious videos also. You are right, they have a wealth of knowledge and information. Yes, we should approach our Jewish brothers in humility. We get so tired of seeing Ephramites acting as if they have it all right and they have something to teach Judah. Yes, we were worshipping idols all these years as they were guarding Torah. What DO we have to offer? On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had not > intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. Also I was not > encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even encouraging attending > a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls someone that way, they need to do it, > of course. I had more in mind the wealth of information out there - if we > are truly looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be > found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are wonderful Jewish > authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes to mind. I just feel very > strongly that we need to remember the things HaSHem says about us (as > Ephraimites) that really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of > course, we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be > mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need to approach our > Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the great respect they deserve for > having zealously guarded, studied, taught about, and died for Torah these > thousands of years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many of > us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long way from where > we once were, but I still think we are extremely proud of ourselves and all > we think we have to offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed > offer Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His Lost Tribes > be regathered, and that it is necessary that we return and again become The > Whole House of Israel, for the sake of the world at large..........but I > wonder what we actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in > numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just something I wonder > about, if anyone has some ideas. > > My love your very precious family, > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... > > Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still > being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than > we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber > Fordham > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not >> realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings >> have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe >> they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of >> denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance >> concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has >> a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including >> Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is >> still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to >> as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: >> >> ** >> *"..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let >> us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for >> us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5* >> ** >> ** >> *"...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are >> fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut >> down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9* >> ** >> ** >> *"...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they >> together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20* >> ** >> ** >> *"The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda >> shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13* >> ** >> ** >> *"Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading >> flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of >> those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1* >> ** >> ** >> *"The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under >> feet...." Is 28:3* >> ** >> ** >> *"...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their >> doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of >> harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos >> 5:3-4* >> ** >> ** >> *"And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return >> to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a >> silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10* >> ** >> ** >> *"....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos >> 9:11* >> ** >> ** >> *"Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2* >> ** >> ** >> *"..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy >> way..." Hos 10:13* >> ** >> ** >> *"Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with >> deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." >> Hos 12:1-2* >> ** >> ** >> *"And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for >> myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were >> sin." Hos 12:9* >> ** >> ** >> It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say >> concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the >> shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com >> >> For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning >> adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the >> word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." >> >> While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son >> was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very >> sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in >> agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. >> Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added >> to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, >> these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children >> from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the >> examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family >> dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family >> unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, >> as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong >> families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a >> light unto all the nations of the earth. >> >> Avigail/Pat >> >> >> >> >> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' >> >> Shalom v'boker tov - >> >> I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base >> when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in >> Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. >> politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and >> George McGovern. >> >> The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a >> 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my >> daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I >> want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. >> >> However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not >> violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting >> the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish >> concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these >> concepts in the *Torah*.... >> >> And I think this - *Torah*, is the real heart of the issue. There >> are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially >> negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people >> have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how >> *they *do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to >> have *some* role in *their* personal Torah observance. >> >> Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT >> AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to >> realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best >> of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study >> Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and >> understand everything. >> >> Just some venting at 5:15am.... >> >> *Hanoch* >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used >> cars . >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/e9bbc34c/attachment.html From plmorrow at juno.com Wed Jul 9 20:43:50 2008 From: plmorrow at juno.com (Patricia L. Morrow) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:43:50 GMT Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Message-ID: <20080709.214350.3665.6@webmail02.dca.untd.com> Hanoch, I found your "rantings" on target and quite eloquent. You are so right that Ephraimites, or anyone who keeps Torah with a NT or "JC" slant is on the wrong path. This dialogue list is called ROOTS of faith for a reason! NOTE: Also agree with what Pat said on the subject. Shalom Brother, Patricia ____________________________________________________________ Click for free information on court reporter careers, $100 per hour potential. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieWBbwviyyXK5Lh2bDnemxoVETBQ83M8MTzlCqcuhua4Lsif/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/b6941b23/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Jul 9 21:08:04 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:08:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d2e01c8e231$cb707980$62516c80$@com> Hi, if you think that Yeshua, for a moment, strayed from these ancient paths - you are mistaken. To the contrary, he upheld them, taught them and died for them. It would not be right for me to compile a list of the sins of Judah in some sort of retaliation, but they are there. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of G-d. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of calb fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. It didn't sound as intense as you think. Sometimes we just get passionate about certain topics. We think people should convert if that's where HaShem leads them. We have several friends who have converted and we think that is great. It didn't sound like you were trying to force people to do this. We think everyone should at least visit a synaguogue. We have enjoyed Aish for 3 years now. It is one of our favorite websites. We love their Jewlarious videos also. You are right, they have a wealth of knowledge and information. Yes, we should approach our Jewish brothers in humility. We get so tired of seeing Ephramites acting as if they have it all right and they have something to teach Judah. Yes, we were worshipping idols all these years as they were guarding Torah. What DO we have to offer? On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had not intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. Also I was not encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even encouraging attending a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls someone that way, they need to do it, of course. I had more in mind the wealth of information out there - if we are truly looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are wonderful Jewish authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes to mind. I just feel very strongly that we need to remember the things HaSHem says about us (as Ephraimites) that really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of course, we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need to approach our Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the great respect they deserve for having zealously guarded, studied, taught about, and died for Torah these thousands of years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many of us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long way from where we once were, but I still think we are extremely proud of ourselves and all we think we have to offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed offer Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His Lost Tribes be regathered, and that it is necessary that we return and again become The Whole House of Israel, for the sake of the world at large..........but I wonder what we actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just something I wonder about, if anyone has some ideas. My love your very precious family, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/7f799a4b/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Jul 9 21:09:32 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 22:09:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] At last, someone is finally thinking clearly! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d3901c8e232$000726d0$00157470$@com> Hi Hanoch, So should we tape it and make popcorn? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 8:50 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] At last, someone is finally thinking clearly! Boker tov, From today's Arutz-7 (www.israelnationalnews.com ) - Hanoch MK Eldad on Hizbullah Swap: "Bomb Them" by Ze'ev Ben-Yechiel MK Aryeh Eldad (NU/NRP) would like to see Israel release Samir Kuntar ? then send him to his Maker. "We know that the Lebanese and the Hizbullah are going to put up a huge celebration for Samir Kuntar," Eldad said in a an interview to be aired Wednesday night with IsraelNationalRadio 's Tovia Singer. "A right-wing, Zionist government in Israel would send four F-16's to participate in the celebrations for Samir Kuntar, and kill everyone who participated, including Samir," he explained. _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080709/d41d21e9/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 9 21:10:29 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:10:29 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: <20080709.214350.3665.6@webmail02.dca.untd.com> References: <20080709.214350.3665.6@webmail02.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <392511163-1215656276-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-47528157-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Heavy sigh! John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Patricia L. Morrow" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:43:50 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jul 10 01:19:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <32265402403A4220B061869D3E2B2129@bettygivin> Thanks for your comments, Amber. On a personal note, I am beginning to feel very alone and alienated due to the present circumstances in my life.yes, it does indeed help to know that others are praying for you! I love reading your posts.just have no time anymore. Caught this one of yours between checking my work emails. Love you & your family.and many blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 2:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Thanks Betty for your prayers! That means a lot knowing others are praying for you! We also pray for everyone on the list. We respect everyone's opinion and love everyone where they are. We understand about being busy! We do not get to check in daily either. We just got back in town from a 4-day trip and miss a lot. We do try and catch up but it is hard sometimes. Chris and Amber On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Dear friends, As you know I have been off list for awhile, not because that is my choice, but because it is a necessary fact of life due to my dreadful ( yet financially beneficial) workload doing catastrophe insurance claims from my home computer 12, sometimes 16+ hours a day 6 days a week! When I did briefly check in on Sunday, I cannot tell you the feelings that crossed my mind and pricked my heart.no way to put them into words. I too have been on this list almost since the beginning, and have known Ross for nearly 20 years and some of you that long as well..many of us have been friends for years, and some of us are finding newly-found friends and creating beautiful friendships. Basically, it seems that the list does have its ebb and flow, but the bottom line to me is that we are all connected in a deeper way than we may realize.. Certainly we are in different places, have different opinions, but it seems that as several have pointed out, we have all been drawn to Torah and the One G-d of Israel. Who says that we all have to agree anyway? Personally, I wish these email 'conversations' (and quite frankly, I have not read thru them all) could have taken place in a face to face discussion. Then we could all 'hug and have a meal together and make up.' It is very "Jewish," if I could use the term loosely and not offend anyone, to disagree.we have all heard the phrase about 4 Jews in a room and 5 opinions! Even though I have formally converted to Judaism, I still consider myself as a lost triber and have in no way lost my love or respect for Yeshua. He was after all my first rabbi. In another post, perhaps I will feel the liberty to share with all of you a beautiful dream that I had along those lines.one that still is as fresh and as moving to me as when I first had it about 18 years ago.Some among us are more attached to Yeshua than others, and I am not going to get into any of my personal opinions here.I have already done that in a public way in other posts.and as I said in the beginning, it is not my agenda to bring others to where I stand.I still have a lot of unanswered questions and am still growing myself.as I hope we all are Anyway, didn't mean to ramble.but as I went to sleep last night, I couldn't get all of this out of my mind.and I kept seeing the picture you sent, Hanoch, in the back of my mind.it looked like the Kavod over Yerushalayim and the Western Wall, the place where HaShem chose to place His Name.and it did give me Peace, just as you wished it upon all of us. Hopefully, we can all continue to join hands and be there together one day. And as far as the list, I may be absent from time to time because I have to, but I am certainly not planning on giving up! There is too much at stake, and I love each and every one of you! We and I suppose I should say I choose to continue just trying to get up every morning, and do all that I can do, and pray that HaShem will lead me in His Path. I do, BTW, pray for many of you individually as you come to mind as well as for all of us corporately as I put on my tallit, outstretch my hands and picture all of us under HaShem's protection. and pray the Aaronic Benediction for us and for all of HaShem's children scattered throughout our land and even unto the four corners of the earth! May we meet at the Wall and pray together in our day and in our time.May HaShem will that it be so! With deepest love and gratitude for our G-d who has given us His Torah and each other! Much, much love and many, many blessings, Elisheva/Betty _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/5a6df167/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 10 01:15:31 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:15:31 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections In-Reply-To: <32265402403A4220B061869D3E2B2129@bettygivin> References: <32265402403A4220B061869D3E2B2129@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1836461872-1215670980-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-116597449-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Hey Elisheva, Still up? Eliron Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:19:31 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jul 10 02:02:44 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:02:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections In-Reply-To: <1836461872-1215670980-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-116597449-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Yep, but can't keep my little eyes open much longer and have an early day tomorrow beginning at 5:30am, so...laila tov, Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:16 AM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Hey Elisheva, Still up? Eliron Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:19:31 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 10 02:32:59 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:32:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Message-ID: <526739061-1215675645-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-473865903-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Laila Tov to all. John C. ------Original Message------ From: Betty Given Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue ReplyTo: Dialogue Sent: Jul 10, 2008 2:02 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Yep, but can't keep my little eyes open much longer and have an early day tomorrow beginning at 5:30am, so...laila tov, Elisheva -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:16 AM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections Hey Elisheva, Still up? Eliron Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:19:31 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Personal Reflections _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 06:20:44 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:20:44 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Mainstream Tractor - Terrorism Message-ID: Mainstream Tractor-Terrorism 7 Tammuz 5768, 10 July 08 04:28 by Yoram Ettinger (IsraelNN.com) The July 2, 2008, Palestinian tractor-terrorism constituted a precise Palestinian human-missile, guided by Palestinian hate education, instituted in 1994 by Mahmoud Abbbas (Abu Mazen), then Yasser Arafat's first deputy, and proliferated via Abu Mazen's current educational-religious-media infrastructures. K-12 and older, Palestinians are exposed systematically to school textbooks, sermons, editorials and news editions - controlled by Abu Mazen - which idolize homicide bombers, calling for the destruction of the "illegitimate, infidel" Jewish State. Hate education (and not statements made to Western leaders and media) is the most authentic reflection of one's ideology, vision and strategy. Hate education constitutes the manufacturing line of terrorists. Hate education distinguishes between peaceful and violent societies. Hate education is facilitated by foreign aid provided to Abu Mazen by the United States, Western Europe and the United Nations. The July 2, 2008, Palestinian tractor-terrorism was an expected derivative of a cultural-political-intellectual-educational-military environment in the Muslim world generally, and in the Palestinian Authority particularly. Such an environment breeds lethal hatred toward Salman Rushdie the "apostate", a European "infidel" cartoonist, the "infidel" Christian regime in Lebanon and the "infidel" Jewish State. Mainstream Palestinian terrorists afford their families with Abu Mazen's "martyr allowances." They are commemorated by PA monuments and soccer tournaments, and idolized in poems featured on Abu Mazen-controlled TV and radio. Palestinian tractor-terrorism, along with hundreds of foiled terrorist attempts and the barrage of Palestinian missiles, have taken place during the administration of the most dovish Israeli Prime Minister. Since the Oslo Accords in 1993, Israel provided Palestinians with unprecedented hope, denied them by the Ottomans, British, Jordanians, Egyptians and the Arab League. Israel imported PLO terrorists from oblivion in Yemen, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon and Tunisia to the doorsteps of their intended Israeli victims, arming terrorists with missiles, ushering them to the White House and according them the Nobel Prize. The Palestinian response was strikingly lucid - instituting hate education. Palestinian terrorism has been adrenalized by the hope of Israeli vacillation, retreat and fatalism. Palestinian terrorism has been energized since the 1920s by the existence - and not by the size - of the Jewish State. The 1993 Oslo Accords have been perceived by Palestinian and other terrorists as a reward for the role model of hijacking, global terrorism and inter-Arab back-stabbing (Egypt in the 1950s, Syria in 1966, Jordan in 1970, Lebanon from 1975 until 1982, and Kuwait in 1990). Since 1993, Palestinian hate education, non-compliance, terrorism and homicide bombing has been answered by further Israeli territorial concessions, bolstered US support for a Palestinian state, and more generous American, European and international foreign aid. Palestinians have realized that not only can they get away with murder, but they can be rewarded for murder. Palestinian tractor-terrorism was also triggered by the slackening of Israel's posture of deterrence since 1993. Subordinating counter-terrorism to the "peace process" has handcuffed the IDF and played into the hands of terrorists, undermining the cause of durable peace. Israel's policy of retreat, coexistence with terrorism, ceasefires, subcontracting counter-terrorism to the PA (and international forces), striving for agreements with those who systematically and violently violate all agreements, and reliance on retaliation and defense, has produced a protracted war of attrition. Such a confrontation is a dream for terrorists and a lethal threat to Israel and to peace. The resurrection of Israel's posture of deterrence - which constitutes a prerequisite for a successful war on terrorism - mandates preemptive, preventive, comprehensive offensives at the breeding ground of terrorism, focusing on the destruction of the ideological, financial and political infrastructures that direct, feed and brainwash homicide bombers. It requires a realization that every square inch conceded to the Palestinians has become a platform for hate education and terrorism, serving as fuel - and not water - for the fire of terrorism. Unprecedented Palestinian terrorism since Oslo 1993, culminating with the July 2, 2008, tractor-terrorism, has corresponded with unprecedented anti-US Islamic terrorism since the first attempt on the Twin Towers in 1993. The more substantial Palestinian independence, the more intensified is Palestinian and global terrorism. Palestinian terrorism was at low ebb on the eve of Oslo, catapulting to its peak since Oslo. US support of an independent state for the role model of terrorism and hate education has been construed by anti-US Islamic terrorists as weakness and as a reward for terrorism. As evidenced by Abu Mazen's education, religious and media systems, such a state would doom Jordan, a US ally, to oblivion. It would energize anti-US terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan (which was intensified following Israel's 2005 Disengagement). It would provide Iran, Russia, China and North Korea with a strategic foothold on the eastern flank of the Mediterranean. It would add another anti-US vote at the UN. It would bolster terrorism against weak Gulf regimes, further destabilizing the Middle East. And it would reward those who oppress Christians in the Bethlehem area. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e6a13566/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 06:23:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:23:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Myth of the Lone Terrorist' Message-ID: The Myth of the Lone Terrorist 7 Tammuz 5768, 10 July 08 04:29 by Dr. Joel Fishman (IsraelNN.com) After an Arab from East Jerusalem used a bulldozer as a weapon for murdering innocent civilians on Jaffa Road last Wednesday, the police announced to the press that the terrorist had acted on his own. Such a statement has a certain finality which tends to stifle further discussion. It implies that the crime was what the French call, un acte gratuit, something done "without logic, motivation, and/or incitement." If one considers that the terrorist from Jabel Mukaber, East Jerusalem, who murdered eight students at the Merkaz HaRav Yeshiva on 11 March 2008, also acted on his own (according to the police), it becomes clear that we are confronted with multiple acts of individual terror. Here is a problem which cannot be brushed off as something beyond our comprehension, like an earthquake or a tsunami. The question which one should ask is: What type of environment could have incited or motivated these individuals to commit murder? As recent scholarship has shown, terrorism is neither the consequence of poverty, nor of an unhappy childhood. One of the first persons who devoted attention to the problem of the lone terrorist was Rabbi Avraham Cooper of the Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. Cooper identified the prototype not in an act of personal jihad, but in the attempt of the 26-year-old Maxime Bruneri to assassinate President Jacques Chirac on Bastille Day 2002, near the Arc de Triomphe. The police knew about Bruneri's right-wing affiliations, but "officials always stressed that he was acting independently of any political group." As applied to the Palestinian war against Israel, Eyad Kishawi, an activist living in San Francisco, published a treatise in January 2006 dealing with the strategy of political warfare. He wrote that it is better that the efforts of anti-Israel activists be decentralized. What is important, however, is that they should convey the same coherent message. Kishawi emphasized the need for decentralization and individual initiative as a means to avoid the reach of the American law enforcement agencies and "Israeli extra-judicial and illeg al activities." It is not a big step to adapt this principle to terrorist warfare. This refinement of method represents a danger to the public. The state must counter this type of incitement by establishing heavy penalties both for those who incite to violence and those who are moved to action. Indeed, it is necessary to neutralize an environment which incites individuals to perform crimes of hatred. Actually, the real dimensions of the problem are much greater than the police are prepared to admit, because they exclude hidden acts of terror, namely those of Arab drivers who use their cars and trucks as lethal weapons. To describe a frontal collision with murderous intent as a traffic accident is a misnomer. Indeed, it is necessary to call such acts of terror by their correct name. When the police speak of the "lone terrorist," such a catchword should prompt us to ask tough questions, rather than to be lulled into a complacent passivity. An abridged version of this article appeared in Hebrew in Makor Rishon on 4 July 2008. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/aca0f174/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 06:29:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:29:00 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] At last, someone is finally thinking clearly! Message-ID: Hi Patty, I'm hoping that we won't have to tape it; that a professionally made DVD of it will be available. To watch the murderers of Jewish children be killed is the kind of thing I'd want to watch over, and over again....Actually, maybe it could even be on YouTube, and the whole Islamo-Nazi world can watch it too! Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/81e4851c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jul 10 07:55:38 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:55:38 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Message-ID: <487606CA.6050005@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/ebe33a71/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 10 09:38:23 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: <0d2e01c8e231$cb707980$62516c80$@com> Message-ID: <314871.61261.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Patty, Since you can say anything you want and nobody labels YOU "hurtful", I have to say this in a very "unhurtful" way, I assure you.........You have no clue. Yes, I respect your right to have no clue...be clueless forever, if that's what you want...but clueless you are. You keep trying to argue the point. I realize this is an open forum, but you aren't ever going to convince anyone who disagrees with you that "keeping" Yeshua is nesessary. I don't know you and you may be a very nice person and love G-d, but I do pray that you will "see the light". It saves a lot of energy, once you "get it". Linda Patty wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Hi, if you think that Yeshua, for a moment, strayed from these ancient paths ? you are mistaken. To the contrary, he upheld them, taught them and died for them. It would not be right for me to compile a list of the sins of Judah in some sort of retaliation, but they are there. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of G-d. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of calb fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. It didn't sound as intense as you think. Sometimes we just get passionate about certain topics. We think people should convert if that's where HaShem leads them. We have several friends who have converted and we think that is great. It didn't sound like you were trying to force people to do this. We think everyone should at least visit a synaguogue. We have enjoyed Aish for 3 years now. It is one of our favorite websites. We love their Jewlarious videos also. You are right, they have a wealth of knowledge and information. Yes, we should approach our Jewish brothers in humility. We get so tired of seeing Ephramites acting as if they have it all right and they have something to teach Judah. Yes, we were worshipping idols all these years as they were guarding Torah. What DO we have to offer? On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had not intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. Also I was not encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even encouraging attending a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls someone that way, they need to do it, of course. I had more in mind the wealth of information out there - if we are truly looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are wonderful Jewish authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes to mind. I just feel very strongly that we need to remember the things HaSHem says about us (as Ephraimites) that really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of course, we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need to approach our Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the great respect they deserve for having zealously guarded, studied, taught about, and died for Torah these thousands of years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many of us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long way from where we once were, but I still think we are extremely proud of ourselves and all we think we have to offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed offer Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His Lost Tribes be regathered, and that it is necessary that we return and again become The Whole House of Israel, for the sake of the world at large..........but I wonder what we actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just something I wonder about, if anyone has some ideas. My love your very precious family, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ --------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/cca7e651/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 10 09:40:59 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: <487606CA.6050005@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <748705.34217.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Joe, You are a blessing. Thank you for your insight and love of HaShem, Torah and Israel. Many blessings, Linda/hadassah JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Patty, With all due respect I would like to add my two bob's worth as we say in the land down under. I am one of those "Joes" who came out of Catholicism, no pun intended. I was born in Sicily and emigrated to Australia as a small child with my family. I went back in my teens to study art in my preparation to become an architect. Unfortunately the ARAB Petrol Crisis of the 70's put an end to my stay in Italy and I returned to Australia to be with my family. I now practise as an architect in the land of Oz. Why I telling you this ? Stay with me. I was born and bred a Catholic. That is until I went to Italy and visited Rome and St Peter's Basilica. As a young art student I was in awe. However I saw the slums of Rome. I then started to learn that this Basilica took some 200 years to build thanks be to the money extorted from the masses via indulgences. I then started to read that the mafia was laundering it's money through the Banca Ambrosiana or the Vatican Bank. I then read about the P2 secret lodges and all the other scandals that the Vatican was involved in. I was shattered ! Why ? Because I was looking for social justice. I renounced my faith and G-d. I became an atheist. Why ? Because the Catholic Church was my only concept of G-d. I know started reading Marx and Engels and the "Das Manifest" I became a communist and marched in the student protest rallies against the Vietnam War and the overthrow of the Alliende Government in Chile by Pinochet. However I then started to realize that communism was corrupted by the Soviets in the USSR and Mao Tse Tung in China. Why ? That famous word "Social Justice" was missing. I then became an easy go lucky normal human being. That is until G-d one day slam dunked me. For privacy reasons I will not elaborate I will however state that my whole life was on the line. I then returned to church and gave my heart to Jesus. I became a "born again Christian" joining the Pentecostal movement. This only lasted 10 months. Why ? You guessed it ! Lack of social justice ! Pastors dripping in gold and Giorgio Armani suites with their prosperity teachings and condemnation sermons of all those that lacked due to their limited faith. However, I did start to read the entire Bible with gusto. I was transformed. By the grace of HaShem I left Christianity behind. I literally lept into the unknown. But I finally met HaShem through the SOCIAL JUSTICE of TORAH. You might say that I was involved in the wrong kind of Christianity. But the book of Revelations calls the Woman with the golden cup full of all the abominations and the unclean things of her immorality "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS " and the abominations of the earth. So please do not point the finger solely at the Catholic Church. She is the mother that spawned ALL the daughter religions. She changed the feasts, the Shabbat, and interpolated much of the Tanakh. And the daughters followed. So much for the background. What is the most polluted river in the world ? ........ The Rio de la Plata between Argentina and Uruguay. It starts in the Andes as a bubbling brook fed by the rains from Heaven and the melting snow of the Andes. It moves quickly along as it cascades down ravines and rapids. If I were to drink the water , it is fresh and pure. If I were to swim in it , it is clean and invigorating. Now the river reaches the plains of human inhabitation. It slows down as it meanders across the country side.The human inhabitations start to pump their pollutants into the river. The same river is now awash with heavy metals, dioxin and human excrement. If I were to drink the water, it most likely would kill me. If I were to swim in the water , I would receive some nasty skin and eye infections. Same river, same water. The conclusion : If you want the pure, fresh,clean and invigorating water, you must go back to the SOURCE. This is not a challenge. This is not being sarcastic. To truely understand Yeshua , look to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. I posted the article on the "Suffering Servant", not as a challenge nor to be smart, but rather to highlight that the Jewish Rabbis came to these conclusion without the aid of the NT. Their source the TANAKH. Did Yeshua quote and teach from the NT ? Did Yeshua fulfill the Torah as you stated ? Were the sayings of Yeshua meant for a gentile WASP audience? What were the foundations of his teachings ? Believe it or not. The Rabbis are closer to the teachings of Yeshua than you might imagine. I have studied and mingled amongst them for the past 12 years. We may not see eye to eye and agree on many issues. But I will say that Yeshua seen through the filter of the Tanakh is not the bone of contention. The sticking point is the gentilized, Greek demi-god JC who is the figure head of a pagan institutionalized religion. The Christian religion and Christian concepts are as far away from the source as night is from day. We have everything to learn and everything to gain from the Jews. Rabbi Yeshua said to the Samaritan woman at the well on the foot of Mount Gerazim ( an Efryamite by the way) that they were ignorant and did not know what they worshiped, however the Jews had the revelation and knew : hence salvation is of the Jews or should I say in Hebrew "YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Redemption is a process. The festivals of the Torah are HaShem's redemptive time clock. Time is short at the moment, but in due time I will post a personal study that I would like to share with the group entitled " Redemption, a study in time and space, from Egypt to the Promised Land" Yeshua kept and upheld the Torah, but did he fulfill it ? According to Peter in Acts chap 3. Yeshua did not. Has all been restored as HaShem promised through the prophets? No !!!! So Yeshua's mission and message is still not completed and is still work in progress. So as Ross stated clearly in last Sunday's Shul lesson the anointing of Yeshua was to proclaim SOCIAL JUSTICE and in so doing release the captives. Isaiah 61. This is also work in process. On the issue of Hawks and Doves, Hanoch has every right to air his opinion on the bloodbath perpetrated by the terrorists in Yerushalayim . We have no grounds whatsoever to moralize these acts of thuggery and wanton murder. They come from the very gates of hell. As I stated "Yesh Din v'Yesh Dayan" : There is one law and one God. This Almighty Judge is now commanding as written in Yoel ? ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????: ?????? ???? (???????) ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ? ?????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? ???????????; ???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. 2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. ? ?????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. 3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. ? ???????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????, ?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. 9 Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. ? ??????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let the weak say: 'I am strong.' ?? ??????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, ??????? ?????? ????????????. 11 Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! ?? ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????: ???? ????, ?????? ????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. 12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. ?? ???????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-??????? ????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ?? ????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????: ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ???????? ????????. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. ?? ??????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. 15 The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. ?? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. ?? ???????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ?????????? ???-????????; ????????? ???????????? ??????, ???????? ???-?????????-???? ????. {?} 17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. {S} ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? ?????, ?????-???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ??????? ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???-????? ???????????. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. ?? ?????????, ?????????? ???????, ????????, ?????????? ???????? ????????; ??????? ?????? ????????, ??????-???????? ???-?????? ??????????. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. ? ?????????, ???????? ???????; ?????????????, ?????? ??????. 20 But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. ?? ???????????, ?????? ???-?????????; ???????, ?????? ??????????. {?} 21 And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent; and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. {P} That Palestinian thug turned his plowshare into a sword. Jaffa Road is one of the major east-west arterial roads in Yerushalim. I personally believe that HaShem is telling us something here. The EAST-WEST connection has been smeared with innocent Jewish blood..... Woe to us!! Will we be the Chamberlain peacenik doves of WW2 that appeased Hitler? 6 million Jews were murdered and over 50 million gentiles were killed. Have we learned the bitter lessons of history ? Woe to the world when evil comes and good men do nothing. Yisrael gave land for peace Yisrael has 2 million Yisraeli Arab citizens with full rights. Do Jews have the same rights in Arab countries? 5 million Jews are surrounded by a sea of 200 million Arabs hell bent on wiping them off the map. All wars against the Jewish State were commenced by the Arabs. Who are the doves ? Who are the Hawks? Patty please do not be naive to think that we are in a Utopian Messianic State quite yet. The birth pangs of Mashiach are upon us. What is used to kosher according to the Torah? ........ WATER, FIRE, and HEAT. How will HaShem kosher the world ? How do you cure cancer ? ........ CHEMO THERAPY, RADIATION THERAPY, and EXCISION. How is HaShem going to remove the human cancer from the world ? I write this with all respect. The Lion of Yehuda will roar. I stand with Yehuda ( the bow) as the efrayimite arrow. Both in the hand of HaShem. Finally, please read the attached article. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/07/war-games-has-begun.html The road to truth starts with one's admittance of error. Catholicism , Communism , Christianity.......... and still admitting error................. but then again YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/d30d32c5/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 10 10:08:11 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:08:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View Message-ID: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, etc.) Shortly after my book, The Jesus Dynasty was released in April, 2006 with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as published in his new book, The Jesus Dynasty? Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending his right to say whatever he pleases." James As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/1251bd5c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Jeru_81_2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 41712 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/1251bd5c/attachment.jpg From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 10:12:43 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:12:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Today's Lekrev Report Message-ID: <8CAB0B689780CE5-1388-11DC@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 7 Tammuz 5768 July 10, 2008 Shalom Save us, O Hashem our G-d, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to Your holy name, that we may triumph in Your praise. Psalm 106:47 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/54e92134/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 10:14:34 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:14:34 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Muslim Women of Terror: Dying to Kill Message-ID: <8CAB0B6CB4E81C5-1388-11FF@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Click here: YouTube - Muslim Women of Terror: Dying to Kill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/4dc47a30/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:53:37 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:53:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks James for this. Where do Chris and I send a check to get a copy of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you? And how many books do you have? Amber Fordham On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor wrote: > I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the point in > terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse opinions > are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, etc.) > Shortly after my book, *The Jesus Dynasty *was released in April, 2006 > with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from > conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking > him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I > thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: > > Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as > published in his new book, *The Jesus Dynasty*? > > Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had time > to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending his > right to say whatever he pleases." > > James > > As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my > students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: > > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/d65f8b60/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 41712 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/d65f8b60/attachment.jpe From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 10:59:47 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:59:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Muslim Women of Terror: Dying to Kill In-Reply-To: <8CAB0B6CB4E81C5-1388-11FF@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> References: <8CAB0B6CB4E81C5-1388-11FF@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, Thank you for making us aware of the many things that are going on! Chris and Amber Forhdam On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:14 AM, wrote: > Click here: YouTube - Muslim Women of Terror: Dying to Kill > ------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/c541363a/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 10 11:00:29 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:00:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. You can get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I think Amazon is running a bargain special right now :-) The book you can order through me is Restoring Abrahamic Faith. See genesis2000.org They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of the historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. James On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: > Thanks James for this. Where do Chris and I send a check to get a > copy of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you? And how many books do you > have? Amber Fordham > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor > wrote: > I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the > point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of > diverse opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, > universities, etc.) > > Shortly after my book, The Jesus Dynasty was released in April, 2006 > with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest > from conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the > University asking him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught > at UNC Charlotte. I thought his published response was quite witty, > but also to the point: > > Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas > as published in his new book, The Jesus Dynasty? > > Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet > had time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this > week defending his right to say whatever he pleases." > > James > > As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of > my students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: > > > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/03349c1c/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 11:05:08 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thank you! We have already ordered "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" from you. Amber On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, James Tabor wrote: > It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. You can > get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I think Amazon is > running a bargain special right now :-) > The book you can order through me is *Restoring Abrahamic Faith*. See > genesis2000.org > > They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of the > historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. > > The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. > > > James > > > On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: > > Thanks James for this. Where do Chris and I send a check to get a copy > of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you? And how many books do you have? Amber > Fordham > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor > wrote: > >> I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the point >> in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse >> opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, >> etc.) >> Shortly after my book, *The Jesus Dynasty *was released in April, 2006 >> with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from >> conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking >> him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I >> thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: >> >> Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as >> published in his new book, *The Jesus Dynasty*? >> >> Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had time >> to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending his >> right to say whatever he pleases." >> >> James >> >> As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my >> students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UILIST mailing list >> UILIST at unitedisrael.org >> >> **** This is a private list. >> **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list >> **** without permission from the person who wrote it. >> **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * >> ************************************************ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/aab447ea/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 11:19:07 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:19:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Hey Amber - ??? You and Chris will love the Jesus Dynasty - what James didn't?say about the book, is that it is an AMAZING work, one which makes you think, and really makes you understand what was going on during those crucial years.? It challenges assumptions, and it places 'history' and 'reality' where blind faith had been previously. ??? For someone like me, who has never been a Christian, it served as a significant?historical work; and since I tend to think of myself as a bit of an amateur historian, I really appreciated it, and the insights I was able to glean from it.? In all honesty, I have read close to 20 books about Jesus and his mission, and I find this one the absolute BEST!? Enjoy it! ?? Best regards, ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: calb fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View Thank you!? We have already ordered "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" from you.? Amber On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, James Tabor wrote: It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. You can get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I think Amazon is running a bargain special right now :-) The book you can order through me is Restoring Abrahamic Faith. See genesis2000.org They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of the historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. James On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: Thanks James for this.? Where do Chris and I send a check to get a copy of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you?? And how many books do you have?? Amber Fordham On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor wrote: I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, etc.) Shortly after my book, The Jesus Dynasty was released in April, 2006 with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as published in his new book, The Jesus Dynasty? Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending his right to say whatever he pleases." James As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/bbbdcaf7/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 10 11:23:02 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:23:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hanoch...I need to send you your monthly endorsement check :-) James On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:19 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Hey Amber - > > You and Chris will love the Jesus Dynasty - what James didn't > say about the book, is that it is an AMAZING work, one which makes > you think, and really makes you understand what was going on during > those crucial years. It challenges assumptions, and it places > 'history' and 'reality' where blind faith had been previously. > > For someone like me, who has never been a Christian, it served > as a significant historical work; and since I tend to think of > myself as a bit of an amateur historian, I really appreciated it, > and the insights I was able to glean from it. In all honesty, I > have read close to 20 books about Jesus and his mission, and I find > this one the absolute BEST! Enjoy it! > > Best regards, > Hanoch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: calb fordham > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View > > Thank you! We have already ordered "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" from > you. Amber > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, James Tabor > wrote: > It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. > You can get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I > think Amazon is running a bargain special right now :-) > > The book you can order through me is Restoring Abrahamic Faith. See > genesis2000.org > > They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of > the historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. > > The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. > > > James > > > On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: > >> Thanks James for this. Where do Chris and I send a check to get a >> copy of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you? And how many books do you >> have? Amber Fordham >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor > > wrote: >> I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the >> point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of >> diverse opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, >> universities, etc.) >> >> Shortly after my book, The Jesus Dynasty was released in April, >> 2006 with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of >> protest from conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at >> the University asking him how he could "allow such heresy" to be >> taught at UNC Charlotte. I thought his published response was quite >> witty, but also to the point: >> >> Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas >> as published in his new book, The Jesus Dynasty? >> >> Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet >> had time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this >> week defending his right to say whatever he pleases." >> >> James >> >> As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of >> my students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UILIST mailing list >> UILIST at unitedisrael.org >> >> **** This is a private list. >> **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list >> **** without permission from the person who wrote it. >> **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * >> ************************************************ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now! > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/831101be/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 10 11:57:56 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Message-ID: <303678.76873.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Joe: Thank you for your?fine and wise explanation of your journey to truth. I was really? encouraged and lifted by your words. Kind regards, Helen (Avigail/Sarah) ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55:38 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Shalom Patty, With all due respect I would like to add my two bob's worth as we say in the land down under. I am one of those "Joes" who came out of Catholicism, no pun intended. I was born in Sicily and emigrated to Australia as a small child with my family. I went back in my teens to study art in my preparation to become an architect. Unfortunately the ARAB Petrol Crisis of the 70's put an end to my stay in Italy and I returned to Australia to be with my family. I now practise as an architect in the land of Oz. Why I telling you this ? Stay with me. I was born and bred a Catholic. That is until I went to Italy and visited Rome and St Peter's Basilica. As a young art student I was in awe. However I saw the slums of Rome. I then started to learn that this Basilica took some 200 years to build thanks be to the money extorted from the masses via indulgences. I then started to read that the mafia was laundering it's money through the Banca Ambrosiana or the Vatican Bank. I then read about the P2 secret lodges and all the other scandals that the Vatican was involved in. I was shattered ! Why ? Because I was looking for social justice. I renounced my faith and G-d. I became an atheist. Why ? Because the Catholic Church was my only concept of G-d. I know started reading Marx and Engels and the "Das Manifest" I became a communist and marched in the student protest rallies against the Vietnam War and the overthrow of the Alliende Government in Chile by Pinochet. However I then started to realize that communism was corrupted by the Soviets in the USSR and Mao Tse Tung in China. Why ? That famous word "Social Justice" was missing. I then became an easy go lucky normal human being. That is until G-d one day slam dunked me. For privacy reasons I will not elaborate I will however state that my whole life was on the line. I then returned to church and gave my heart to Jesus. I became a "born again Christian" joining the Pentecostal movement. This only lasted 10 months. Why ? You guessed it ! Lack of social justice ! Pastors dripping in gold and Giorgio Armani suites with their prosperity teachings and condemnation sermons of all those that lacked due to their limited faith. However, I did start to read the entire Bible with gusto. I was transformed. By the grace of HaShem I left Christianity behind. I literally lept into the unknown. But I finally met HaShem through the SOCIAL JUSTICE of TORAH. You might say that I was involved in the wrong kind of Christianity. But the book of Revelations calls the Woman with the golden cup full of all the abominations and the unclean things of her immorality "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS " and the abominations of the earth. So please do not point the finger solely at the Catholic Church. She is the mother that spawned ALL the daughter religions. She changed the feasts, the Shabbat, and interpolated much of the Tanakh. And the daughters followed. So much for the background. What is the most polluted river in the world ? ........ The Rio de la Plata between Argentina and Uruguay. It starts in the Andes as a bubbling brook fed by the rains from Heaven and the melting snow of the Andes. It moves quickly along as it cascades down ravines and rapids. If I were to drink the water , it is fresh and pure. If I were to swim in it , it is clean and invigorating. Now the river reaches the plains of human inhabitation. It slows down as it meanders across the country side.The human inhabitations start to pump their pollutants into the river. The same river is now awash with heavy metals, dioxin and human excrement. If I were to drink the water, it most likely would kill me. If I were to swim in the water , I would receive some nasty skin and eye infections. Same river, same water. The conclusion : If you want the pure, fresh,clean and invigorating water, you must go back to the SOURCE. This is not a challenge. This is not being sarcastic. To truely understand Yeshua , look to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. I posted the article on the "Suffering Servant", not as a challenge nor to be smart, but rather to highlight that the Jewish Rabbis came to these conclusion without the aid of the NT. Their source the TANAKH. Did Yeshua quote and teach from the NT ? Did Yeshua fulfill the Torah as you stated ? Were the sayings of Yeshua meant for a gentile WASP audience? What were the foundations of his teachings ? Believe it or not. The Rabbis are closer to the teachings of Yeshua than you might imagine. I have studied and mingled amongst them for the past 12 years. We may not see eye to eye and agree on many issues. But I will say that Yeshua seen through the filter of the Tanakh is not the bone of contention. The sticking point is the gentilized, Greek demi-god JC who is the figure head of a pagan institutionalized religion. The Christian religion and Christian concepts are as far away from the source as night is from day. We have everything to learn and everything to gain from the Jews. Rabbi Yeshua said to the Samaritan woman at the well on the foot of Mount Gerazim ( an Efryamite by the way) that they were ignorant and did not know what they worshiped, however the Jews had the revelation and knew : hence salvation is of the Jews or should I say in Hebrew "YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Redemption is a process. The festivals of the Torah are HaShem's redemptive time clock. Time is short at the moment, but in due time I will post a personal study? that I would like to share with the group entitled " Redemption, a study in time and space, from Egypt to the Promised Land" Yeshua kept and upheld the Torah, but did he fulfill it ? According to Peter in Acts chap 3. Yeshua did not. Has all been restored as HaShem promised through the prophets? No !!!! So Yeshua's mission and message is still not completed and is still work in progress. So as Ross stated clearly in last Sunday's Shul lesson the anointing of Yeshua was to proclaim SOCIAL JUSTICE and in so doing release the captives.Isaiah 61. This is also work in process. On the issue of Hawks and Doves, Hanoch has every right to air his opinion on the bloodbath perpetrated by the terrorists in Yerushalayim . We have no grounds whatsoever to moralize these acts of thuggery and wanton murder. They come from the very gates of hell. As I stated "Yesh Din v'Yesh Dayan" : There is one law and one God. This Almighty Judge is now commanding as written in Yoel ???????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????:? ?????? ???? (???????) ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ????????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? ???????????; ???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. 2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them therefor My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. ????????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. 3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. ??????????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????, ?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. 9 Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. ?????????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let the weak say: 'I am strong.' ??????????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, ??????? ?????? ????????????. 11 Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! ???????????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????:? ???? ????, ?????? ????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. 12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. ???????????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-??????? ????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ????????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????:? ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ???????? ????????. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. ??????????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. 15 The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. ??????????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. ???????????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ?????????? ???-????????; ????????? ???????????? ??????, ???????? ???-?????????-???? ????.? {?} 17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. {S} ??????????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? ?????, ?????-???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ??????? ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???-????? ???????????. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. ?????????????, ?????????? ???????, ????????, ?????????? ???????? ????????; ??????? ?????? ????????, ??????-???????? ???-?????? ??????????. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, andEdom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah,because they have shed innocent blood in theirland. ????????????, ???????? ???????; ?????????????, ?????? ??????. 20 But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. ???????????????, ?????? ???-?????????; ???????, ?????? ??????????.? {?} 21 And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent; and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. {P} That Palestinian thug turned his plowshare into a sword. Jaffa Road is one of the major east-west arterial roads in Yerushalim. I personally believe that HaShem is telling us something here. The EAST-WEST connection has been smeared with innocent Jewish blood..... Woe to us!! Will we be the Chamberlain peacenik doves of WW2 that appeased Hitler? 6 million Jews were murdered and over 50 million gentiles were killed. Have we learned the bitter lessons of history ? Woe to the world when evil comes and good men do nothing. Yisrael gave land for peace Yisrael has 2 million Yisraeli Arab citizens with full rights. Do Jews have the same rights in Arab countries? 5 million Jews are surrounded by a sea of 200 million Arabs hell bent on wiping them off the map. All wars against the Jewish State were commenced by the Arabs. Who are the doves ? Who are the Hawks? Patty please do not be naive to think that we are in a Utopian Messianic State quite yet. The birth pangs of Mashiach are upon us. What is used to kosher according to the Torah? ........ WATER, FIRE, and HEAT. How will HaShem kosher the world ? How do you cure cancer ? ........ CHEMO THERAPY, RADIATION THERAPY, and EXCISION. How is HaShem going to remove the human cancer from the world ? I write this with all respect. The Lion of Yehuda will roar. I stand with Yehuda ( the bow) as the efrayimite arrow. Both in the hand of HaShem. Finally, please read the attached article. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/07/war-games-has-begun.html The road to truth starts with one's admittance of error. Catholicism , Communism , Christianity.......... and still admitting error................. but then again YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/dce16afe/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 12:22:48 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:22:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: <303678.76873.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <303678.76873.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Me too, Joe. That was so beautifully expressed, and so appreciated. ~ Pat From: Helen Lusk Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Dear Joe: Thank you for your fine and wise explanation of your journey to truth. I was really encouraged and lifted by your words. Kind regards, Helen (Avigail/Sarah) ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55:38 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Shalom Patty, With all due respect I would like to add my two bob's worth as we say in the land down under. I am one of those "Joes" who came out of Catholicism, no pun intended. I was born in Sicily and emigrated to Australia as a small child with my family. I went back in my teens to study art in my preparation to become an architect. Unfortunately the ARAB Petrol Crisis of the 70's put an end to my stay in Italy and I returned to Australia to be with my family. I now practise as an architect in the land of Oz. Why I telling you this ? Stay with me. I was born and bred a Catholic. That is until I went to Italy and visited Rome and St Peter's Basilica. As a young art student I was in awe. However I saw the slums of Rome. I then started to learn that this Basilica took some 200 years to build thanks be to the money extorted from the masses via indulgences. I then started to read that the mafia was laundering it's money through the Banca Ambrosiana or the Vatican Bank. I then read about the P2 secret lodges and all the other scandals that the Vatican was involved in. I was shattered ! Why ? Because I was looking for social justice. I renounced my faith and G-d. I became an atheist. Why ? Because the Catholic Church was my only concept of G-d. I know started reading Marx and Engels and the "Das Manifest" I became a communist and marched in the student protest rallies against the Vietnam War and the overthrow of the Alliende Government in Chile by Pinochet. However I then started to realize that communism was corrupted by the Soviets in the USSR and Mao Tse Tung in China. Why ? That famous word "Social Justice" was missing. I then became an easy go lucky normal human being. That is until G-d one day slam dunked me. For privacy reasons I will not elaborate I will however state that my whole life was on the line. I then returned to church and gave my heart to Jesus. I became a "born again Christian" joining the Pentecostal movement. This only lasted 10 months. Why ? You guessed it ! Lack of social justice ! Pastors dripping in gold and Giorgio Armani suites with their prosperity teachings and condemnation sermons of all those that lacked due to their limited faith. However, I did start to read the entire Bible with gusto. I was transformed. By the grace of HaShem I left Christianity behind. I literally lept into the unknown. But I finally met HaShem through the SOCIAL JUSTICE of TORAH. You might say that I was involved in the wrong kind of Christianity. But the book of Revelations calls the Woman with the golden cup full of all the abominations and the unclean things of her immorality "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS " and the abominations of the earth. So please do not point the finger solely at the Catholic Church. She is the mother that spawned ALL the daughter religions. She changed the feasts, the Shabbat, and interpolated much of the Tanakh. And the daughters followed. So much for the background. What is the most polluted river in the world ? ........ The Rio de la Plata between Argentina and Uruguay. It starts in the Andes as a bubbling brook fed by the rains from Heaven and the melting snow of the Andes. It moves quickly along as it cascades down ravines and rapids. If I were to drink the water , it is fresh and pure. If I were to swim in it , it is clean and invigorating. Now the river reaches the plains of human inhabitation. It slows down as it meanders across the country side.The human inhabitations start to pump their pollutants into the river. The same river is now awash with heavy metals, dioxin and human excrement. If I were to drink the water, it most likely would kill me. If I were to swim in the water , I would receive some nasty skin and eye infections. Same river, same water. The conclusion : If you want the pure, fresh,clean and invigorating water, you must go back to the SOURCE. This is not a challenge. This is not being sarcastic. To truely understand Yeshua , look to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. I posted the article on the "Suffering Servant", not as a challenge nor to be smart, but rather to highlight that the Jewish Rabbis came to these conclusion without the aid of the NT. Their source the TANAKH. Did Yeshua quote and teach from the NT ? Did Yeshua fulfill the Torah as you stated ? Were the sayings of Yeshua meant for a gentile WASP audience? What were the foundations of his teachings ? Believe it or not. The Rabbis are closer to the teachings of Yeshua than you might imagine. I have studied and mingled amongst them for the past 12 years. We may not see eye to eye and agree on many issues. But I will say that Yeshua seen through the filter of the Tanakh is not the bone of contention. The sticking point is the gentilized, Greek demi-god JC who is the figure head of a pagan institutionalized religion. The Christian religion and Christian concepts are as far away from the source as night is from day. We have everything to learn and everything to gain from the Jews. Rabbi Yeshua said to the Samaritan woman at the well on the foot of Mount Gerazim ( an Efryamite by the way) that they were ignorant and did not know what they worshiped, however the Jews had the revelation and knew : hence salvation is of the Jews or should I say in Hebrew "YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Redemption is a process. The festivals of the Torah are HaShem's redemptive time clock. Time is short at the moment, but in due time I will post a personal study that I would like to share with the group entitled " Redemption, a study in time and space, from Egypt to the Promised Land" Yeshua kept and upheld the Torah, but did he fulfill it ? According to Peter in Acts chap 3. Yeshua did not. Has all been restored as HaShem promised through the prophets? No !!!! So Yeshua's mission and message is still not completed and is still work in progress. So as Ross stated clearly in last Sunday's Shul lesson the anointing of Yeshua was to proclaim SOCIAL JUSTICE and in so doing release the captives. Isaiah 61. This is also work in process. On the issue of Hawks and Doves, Hanoch has every right to air his opinion on the bloodbath perpetrated by the terrorists in Yerushalayim . We have no grounds whatsoever to moralize these acts of thuggery and wanton murder. They come from the very gates of hell. As I stated "Yesh Din v'Yesh Dayan" : There is one law and one God. This Almighty Judge is now commanding as written in Yoel ? ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????: ?????? ???? (???????) ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ? ?????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? ???????????; ???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. 2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. ? ?????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. 3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. ? ???????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????, ?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. 9 Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. ? ??????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let the weak say: 'I am strong.' ?? ??????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, ??????? ?????? ????????????. 11 Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! ?? ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????: ???? ????, ?????? ????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. 12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. ?? ???????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-??????? ????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ?? ????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????: ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ???????? ????????. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. ?? ??????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. 15 The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. ?? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. ?? ???????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ?????????? ???-????????; ????????? ???????????? ??????, ???????? ???-?????????-???? ????. {?} 17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. {S} ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? ?????, ?????-???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ??????? ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???-????? ???????????. 18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. ?? ?????????, ?????????? ???????, ????????, ?????????? ???????? ????????; ??????? ?????? ????????, ??????-???????? ???-?????? ??????????. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. ? ?????????, ???????? ???????; ?????????????, ?????? ??????. 20 But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. ?? ???????????, ?????? ???-?????????; ???????, ?????? ??????????. {?} 21 And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as innocent; and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. {P} That Palestinian thug turned his plowshare into a sword. Jaffa Road is one of the major east-west arterial roads in Yerushalim. I personally believe that HaShem is telling us something here. The EAST-WEST connection has been smeared with innocent Jewish blood..... Woe to us!! Will we be the Chamberlain peacenik doves of WW2 that appeased Hitler? 6 million Jews were murdered and over 50 million gentiles were killed. Have we learned the bitter lessons of history ? Woe to the world when evil comes and good men do nothing. Yisrael gave land for peace Yisrael has 2 million Yisraeli Arab citizens with full rights. Do Jews have the same rights in Arab countries? 5 million Jews are surrounded by a sea of 200 million Arabs hell bent on wiping them off the map. All wars against the Jewish State were commenced by the Arabs. Who are the doves ? Who are the Hawks? Patty please do not be naive to think that we are in a Utopian Messianic State quite yet. The birth pangs of Mashiach are upon us. What is used to kosher according to the Torah? ........ WATER, FIRE, and HEAT. How will HaShem kosher the world ? How do you cure cancer ? ........ CHEMO THERAPY, RADIATION THERAPY, and EXCISION. How is HaShem going to remove the human cancer from the world ? I write this with all respect. The Lion of Yehuda will roar. I stand with Yehuda ( the bow) as the efrayimite arrow. Both in the hand of HaShem. Finally, please read the attached article. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/07/war-games-has-begun.html The road to truth starts with one's admittance of error. Catholicism , Communism , Christianity.......... and still admitting error................. but then again YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e1f0e9cb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 13:17:39 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:17:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Balak: Lip Service Message-ID: <8CAB0D05F529D9D-1688-61D@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/42240 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/8cc8fa27/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 13:20:29 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:20:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, Still Missing... Message-ID: <8CAB0D0C4876598-1688-652@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> Please read.... ???????????????? Hanoch ?http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/42234 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/a2fd5bdf/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 13:33:07 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:33:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hanoch! We caught a little of James history yesterday that blew us away! It was way over our heads and I thought I knew a little history! Ha! Ha! Amber On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:19 PM, wrote: > Hey Amber - > > You and Chris will love the *Jesus Dynasty *- what James *didn't* say > about the book, is that it is an AMAZING work, one which makes you think, > and really makes you understand what was going on during those crucial > years. It challenges assumptions, and it places 'history' and 'reality' > where blind faith had been previously. > > For someone like me, who has never been a Christian, it served as a > significant historical work; and since I tend to think of myself as a bit of > an amateur historian, I really appreciated it, and the insights I was able > to glean from it. In all honesty, I have read close to 20 books about Jesus > and his mission, and I find this one the absolute BEST! Enjoy it! > > Best regards, > *Hanoch* > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: calb fordham > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05 pm > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View > > Thank you! We have already ordered "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" from > you. Amber > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, James Tabor > wrote: > >> It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. You can >> get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I think Amazon is >> running a bargain special right now :-) >> The book you can order through me is *Restoring Abrahamic Faith*. See >> genesis2000.org >> >> They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of the >> historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. >> >> The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. >> >> >> James >> >> >> On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: >> >> Thanks James for this. Where do Chris and I send a check to get a copy >> of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you? And how many books do you have? Amber >> Fordham >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor >> wrote: >> >>> I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the >>> point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse >>> opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, >>> etc.) >>> Shortly after my book, *The Jesus Dynasty *was released in April, 2006 >>> with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from >>> conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking >>> him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I >>> thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: >>> >>> Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as >>> published in his new book, *The Jesus Dynasty*? >>> >>> Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had >>> time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending >>> his right to say whatever he pleases." >>> >>> James >>> >>> As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my >>> students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UILIST mailing list >>> UILIST at unitedisrael.org >>> >>> **** This is a private list. >>> **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list >>> **** without permission from the person who wrote it. >>> **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * >>> ************************************************ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/9f8b5653/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jul 10 15:17:48 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:17:48 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Do you see what I see ? Message-ID: <48766E6C.2060604@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/73733e02/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Oil_Rig.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 76875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/73733e02/attachment.jpg From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jul 10 15:33:03 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:33:03 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Missing Tribes. Message-ID: <487671FF.9000006@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/0e5c114a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 16:06:22 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:06:22 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View In-Reply-To: References: <7466CFAC-12C3-4A80-80D5-11DC783B07C9@earthlink.net> <8CAB0BFCFE940E5-1388-16C3@Webmail-mg20.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAB0E7F0DB7EB7-18A4-33F@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> Dear James, ???? Yes, I can picture it now, on the back cover of the next edition?- Hanoch Young calls it: "..my favorite Jesus book EVER!"? That will?give me my 15 minutes of fame :-)?? LOL ??? B'Ahava, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View Thanks Hanoch...I need to send you your monthly endorsement check :-) James On Jul 10, 2008, at 12:19 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: Hey Amber - ??? You and Chris will love the Jesus Dynasty - what James didn't?say about the book, is that it is an AMAZING work, one which makes you think, and really makes you understand what was going on during those crucial years.? It challenges assumptions, and it places 'history' and 'reality' where blind faith had been previously. ? ??? For someone like me, who has never been a Christian, it served as a significant?historical work; and since I tend to think of myself as a bit of an amateur historian, I really appreciated it, and the insights I was able to glean from it.? In all honesty, I have read close to 20 books about Jesus and his mission, and I find this one the absolute BEST!? Enjoy it! ?? Best regards, ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: calb fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On Free Expression of Opinions and View Thank you!? We have already ordered "Restoring Abrahamic Faith" from you.? Amber On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:00 PM, James Tabor wrote: It was published by Simon & Schuster so I don't market it myself. You can get it through bookstores about anywhere or on Amazon...I think Amazon is running a bargain special right now :-) The book you can order through me is Restoring Abrahamic Faith. See genesis2000.org They are very different. One is a book offering my own evaluation of the historical Jesus as a biblical scholar/archaeologist. The latter is my own personal "manifesto" of faith. James On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:53 AM, calb fordham wrote: Thanks James for this.? Where do Chris and I send a check to get a copy of "The Jesus Dynasty" from you?? And how many books do you have?? Amber Fordham On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:08 AM, James Tabor wrote: I wanted to pass on a little story that I thought was quite to the point in terms of arenas in our society in which open expression of diverse opinions are encouraged and supposed to thrive (government, universities, etc.) Shortly after my book, The Jesus Dynasty was released in April, 2006 with all the TV and press attention there was a firestorm of protest from conservative Christians writing our Chancellor here at the University asking him how he could "allow such heresy" to be taught at UNC Charlotte. I thought his published response was quite witty, but also to the point: Question: Mr. Chancellor, what do you think about Dr. Tabor's ideas as published in his new book, The Jesus Dynasty? Response: "Well I have to be honest with you here. I have not yet had time to read Dr. Tabor's book since I have been too busy this week defending his right to say whatever he pleases." James As an illustration of this point I attach a priceless photo one of my students took just outside the church at the Garden of Gethsemane: _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/94246eff/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 16:25:55 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:25:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Do you see what I see ? In-Reply-To: <48766E6C.2060604@westnet.com.au> References: <48766E6C.2060604@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks for this great picture! Chris and Amber Fordham On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 4:17 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > *In a world of darkness , the LIGHT of HASHEM shows the coming whirlwind > of destruction upon the nations that love the black oil.* > > *Regards with deep concerns > JOE. > * > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/66f74353/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Thu Jul 10 16:53:58 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:53:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] still smiling! Message-ID: <487684F6.90509@gninc.ca> Hi to all, this following is from Shmuel Sackett of the leadership of Manhigut Yehudit, a rising leadership in Israel, getting ready to start a new Government in Israel. "Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State." Moshe Feiglin, their leader, has written a couple of quite interesting books. I highly respect these people, for what they are striving for. Cornie Tamuz, 5768 July, '08 Today is July 4th which marks my 18th year Aliyah anniversary - and *I am still smiling! * I still break my teeth speaking Hebrew, have problems reading the Yediot Aharonot newspaper (not such a loss) and can't figure out why I work on Sunday but - *I am still smiling! * I pay close to $9.00 a gallon for gas (so stop complaining about gas prices in the USA), check every Pesach product 12 times for /Kitniyot/ and will be sending my kids to camp for a grand total of two weeks (Israeli camps stop after two weeks - what the heck is that all about??) but - * I am still smiling! * I go to army reserves every year even though they don't let me shoot anybody, pay a ridiculous TV tax even though I don't have a TV and eat about 15 /sufganiyot/ on Chanukah even though 14 of them never have jelly but - *I am still smiling! * Since I am one of those 'crazy' people who had the nerve to oppose the Oslo 'Peace Process' (how dare I do such a thing???) I have had the honor of being beaten by Israeli riot policemen, been arrested 10 times, convicted of sedition, sentenced to 12 months in prison and fired from my job by Shulamit Aloni (remember her?) yet, through all of it - *I am still smiling!* Of course I do not smile when I think of this week's terror attack by a Jerusalem Arab. I also do not smile when I remember my dear friends Binyamin and Talia Kahane with whom I ate lunch four days before their tragic murder by terrorists who received guns from Shimon Peres. I do not smile when I think of my close friend Hillel Lieberman who I used to dovin with in Kever Yosef and talk with at length about the holy city of Shechem. Furthermore, I do not smile at the fact that at Hillel's funeral, I was shot at by Arabs. Only a miracle guided those bullets away from my car. And finally, I do not smile at the saddest day of my entire Aliyah - just 4 months after I arrived here - when I joined 150,000 Jews in burying my holy and amazing Rebbe, HaRav Meir Kahane ztz"l. On that sad day I waited in line to say some prayers by his newly dug grave and vowed to do whatever I could to bring his dream of Israel as a strong and proud Jewish State to fruition. Thank G-d, I have kept that promise as I work, night and day, to bring new leadership to this country. And so, even though not all of the 6,570 days have been rosy, I am still smiling because I know that in the end we will emerge victorious. Good will defeat evil and those who work to sanctify G-d's Name will beat those who desecrate it. New leaders beaming with Jewish pride will soon lead Israel and the once mighty IDF will become the army it should be. The first 18 years are now over and I thank G-d for being with me every step of the way. My wife gave birth to two beautiful babies here in Israel and they joined our four American imports, thank G-d. We built a house, walked two children down to their /chuppa /and had our son's bar mitzvah catered by Kentucky Fried Chicken (try that in the States!!) What will the next 18 years bring? I pray that G-d will guide me, my family and all of Klal Yisrael in doing what needs to be done to end the pain and suffering of His people. I beg G-d to help us sanctify His great and holy Name and hope that the shedding of Jewish blood is over forever. By the time I write my article for my 36th anniversary I pray that the Bet Ha'Mikdash will have been built and that all our brothers and sisters - from the four corners of the earth - returned to our Promised Land. And I pray that *I will still be smiling**!* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e7df50f4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: olim 4.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e7df50f4/attachment.jpg From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 17:14:39 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:14:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] still smiling! In-Reply-To: <487684F6.90509@gninc.ca> References: <487684F6.90509@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <8CAB0F17B1F9B65-18A4-71E@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> Hey Cornie -? ????Thanks for passing this on; I've known Shmuel & his wife Rhonda from quite a number of years ago, and they do very, very good things.?And Manhigut Yehudit IS actually trying to turn Israel into a Jewish State...we need to go and help them? :-) ????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Cornie Reimer To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 5:53 pm Subject: [Dialogue] still smiling! Hi to all, this following is from Shmuel Sackett of the leadership of Manhigut Yehudit, a rising leadership in Israel, getting ready to start a new Government in Israel. "Turning the State of the Jews into the Jewish State." Moshe Feiglin, their leader, has written a couple of quite interesting books. I highly respect these people, for what they are striving for. Cornie Tamuz, 5768 July, '08 Today is July 4th which marks my 18th year Aliyah anniversary - and I am still smiling! I still break my teeth speaking Hebrew, have problems reading the Yediot Aharonot newspaper (not such a loss) and can't figure out why I work on Sunday but - I am still smiling! I pay close to $9.00 a gallon for gas (so stop complaining about gas prices in the USA), check every Pesach product 12 times for Kitniyot and will be sending my kids to camp for a grand total of two weeks (Israeli camps stop after two weeks - what the heck is that all about??) but - I am still smiling! I go to army reserves every year even though they don't let me shoot anybody, pay a ridiculous TV tax even though I don't have a TV and eat about 15 sufganiyot on Chanukah even though 14 of them never have jelly but - I am still smiling! Since I am one of those 'crazy' people who had the nerve to oppose the Oslo 'Peace Process' (how dare I do such a thing???) I have had the honor of being beaten by Israeli riot policemen, been arrested 10 times, convicted of sedition, sentenced to 12 months in prison and fired from my job by Shulamit Aloni (remember her?) yet, through all of it - I am still smiling! Of course I do not smile when I think of this week's terror attack by a Jerusalem Arab. I also do not smile when I remember my dear friends Binyamin and Talia Kahane with whom I ate lunch four days before their tragic murder by terrorists who received guns from Shimon Peres. I do not smile when I think of my close friend Hillel Lieberman who I used to dovin with in Kever Yosef and talk with at length about the holy city of Shechem. Furthermore, I do not smile at the fact that at Hillel's funeral, I was shot at by Arabs. Only a miracle guided those bullets away from my car. And finally, I do not smile at the saddest day of my entire Aliyah - just 4 months after I arrived here - when I joined 150,000 Jews in burying my holy and amazing Rebbe, HaRav Meir Kahane ztz"l. On that sad day I waited in line to say some prayers by his newly dug grave and vowed to do whatever I could to bring his dream of Israel as a strong and proud Jewish State to fruition. Thank G-d, I have kept that promise as I work, night and day, to bring new leadership to this country. And so, even though not all of the 6,570 days have been rosy, I am still smiling because I know that in the end we will emerge victorious. Good will defeat evil and those who work to sanctify G-d's Name will beat those who desecrate it. New leaders beaming with Jewish pride will soon lead Israel and the once mighty IDF will become the army it should be. The first 18 years are now over and I thank G-d for being with me every step of the way. My wife gave birth to two beautiful babies here in Israel and they joined our four American imports, thank G-d. We built a house, walked two children down to their chuppa and had our son's bar mitzvah catered by Kentucky Fried Chicken (try that in the States!!) What will the next 18 years bring? I pray that G-d will guide me, my family and all of Klal Yisrael in doing what needs to be done to end the pain and suffering of His people. I beg G-d to help us sanctify His great and holy Name and hope that the shedding of Jewish blood is over forever. By the time I write my article for my 36th anniversary I pray that the Bet Ha'Mikdash will have been built and that all our brothers and sisters - from the four corners of the earth - returned to our Promised Land. And I pray that I will still be smiling! ? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e9593b08/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 18761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/e9593b08/attachment.jpe From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 10 17:50:57 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:50:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: References: <303678.76873.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <071020082250.24598.487692500008900B0000601622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Everyone, I guess I'm a little confused. I can understand the simple argument between the "Hawks and Doves", that discussion has been going on for centuries and it is no surprise that there are folks on both sides of that issue in our group here. But I'm having some trouble figuring out how we got from that discussion to a baileywick between Judah and Ephraim. First let me say that if I said anything in any of my posts to infer anything derrogatory about Judah (or Ephraim for that matter) then I humbly apologize, it was certainly not intended. I am more than certain that anyone on this list could make an argument from either the Tanach or the NT for either perspective. But I think we need to be careful about using generalities in our discussions. Not everyone who calls themselves Judah is a Hawk and not everyone who calls themselves Ephraim is a Dove. Not everyone who calls themselves Ephraim thinks Yeshua is relevent to thier walk and not everyone who calls themselves Judah does not. Not everyone in Ephraim is willing to call themselves a Christian and not everyone in Judah believes that the Torah is to be taken literally. I have my own opinions about each and every one of those issues but that doesn't give me the right to make assumptions, draw conclusions and generalize about anyone else. I also think it is very risky for any of us to pass judgement on anyone elses "path" on this journey. I think on this list all of us have acknowledged that our relationship with and understanding of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is our destination. But if we are busy trying to make sure the guy on the other "path" is walking safely, we may not see the big 'ol ditch we ourselves are about to fall into. In any case, I posted the following letter to another list recently that is having a similar discussion. I post it here (with a few relevent tweaks) in the same spirit. I think it is complementary to Joe's recent post. In fact, that is part of my bewilderment, the more we say to each other the more we seem to be in violent agreement. My apologies for the duplication to those of you who might be on both lists. John C. *************************************************************************** I want to relate a couple of short stories to you. Before I do I want you all to understand that I do so with the utmost humility and my only objective is to illustrate a point. These things could and probably have happened to someone else but as it is I can only honestly witness to the things that have happened in my own life. I came from a Christian background. I have chosen to use that term because it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that the term "Came out of Christianity" means different things to different people on this list. To some it simply means to have divested one's self of the doctrines of the Christian church (Catholic or Protestant). To others it means to renounce the "New (or Re-Newed) Testament". And to others it seems to mean to disassociate one's self from Yeshua/Jesus altogether. I'm sure there are many understandings between those choices and some I have not even heard of yet. For myself I can say that I definitly fall in the first category and I have revised my opinions on the validity of several parts of the New Testament. But I have not disassociated myself from Yeshua. The first story explains why. As I grew up there were no Rabbis knocking on my door to teach me anything. In fact the only Jewish person I remember actually meeting (though I'm sure there were others) was a friend of my parent's who owned a clothing store in Manhattan. But there were "Christians" of many flavors on every street corner all of whom wanted to save my soul for one reason or another. My Catholic upbringing, combined with my love of science and the almost fanatic urgency of the more fundamentalist Christians I had met, eventually convinced me that G-d was someone's pipe dream. So to be honest with you the reason I began reading the Bible at all was so that I would know enough about Christianity to argue with them. But, as you would probably guess, that is where I first met G-d. Oh, I was still not convinced and it only made me work harder to refute Him and I did so for years. I watched all the big Jesus movies, Greatest Story Ever Told and all of that. I thought and thought and refined my arguments. And just when I was almost certain that I had this G-d thing all figured out, I had an unmistakably real G-d experience, He called my bluff. He dared me to teach a bunch of Independant Baptist men why He didn't exist. It was there that I really met this guy by the name of Jesus. For the first time I started to read his words as though he actually had a point to make, which led me to reread the entire Bible from cover to cover twice as though it were a book that actually held truth. By the time I was done, I had figured out that G-d really did have it figured out and I didn't. So I dove head first into this new experience and got to know this guy Jesus. Unfortunately, the pool I was swimming in was filled with church doctrine, much of which I swallowed for a time. I knew something was wrong from almost the beginning because, being the scientific type, I had a lot of questions. But what I found (with maybe one exception) was that every "Preacher" I asked questions of or tried to hold an honest and challenging conversation with seemed to speak to me like they were reading a script or they ignored me altogether. This grated on me for a long time and I eventually gave up. I found that I could learn more by studying either by myself or with some trusted friends, but even that was fraught with peril for our relationships. It all eventually collapsed but it was right around that time that I found Roots of Faith. The thing that attracted me to Ross and that small group was that we could speak the unspeakable openly and at least try to answer each others questions without thinking each other was going to hell and taking the rest of us with them. We have had some challenges since that time and some have left but we are still doing the same thing every week. And yes, Yeshua's words are used quite often in those discussions. It gave me hope that people of different understandings who all loved the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob could actually talk and yes, argue, with each other and still love each other enough to say Shalom the next day. The following is an excerpt from Ross's introduction on the ROF website. It bears renewed scrutiny I think.. I am reminded of a wonderful saying found in the Sayings of the Fathers (Mishna Avoth 2:6) that says, "The timid student does not learn and the stern teacher does not educate." I really believe this to be true. I, like all of you have some firmly held convictions. Many of us have MANY such convictions. I for one am learning to listen and learn from those who have a differing opinion than I. Some of the most valuable learning for me has been gained from actively listening to a view with which I had not been familiar, but that was presented with evidence and tact. So if you have honest questions about faith related issues and are open to consider the views of others, to constructively and respectfully challenge long established doctrines and dogmas, all the while allowing yourself to be vulnerable and teachable then this list is probably for you. I have to believe that most people try to act with integrity based upon what they see and know at any given time. I want to encourage open advocacy and authentic inquiry on this list. In order for this to work, and for you to remain on this list you must understand and utilize both. Open advocacy can be defined as "stating a position that permits others to state a different position." This leads me to the second story. Again I want to say that I only tell this story as an example of what is possible. It is in no way meant to beat my own drum or be seen as some sort of collective objective. It is what happened in my life, so therefore I can tell about it. Yesterday I was given the opportunity to speak to some good friends of mine (about a dozen) who are technically still part of the Christian amalgum. I say "given" because Idid not pursue this task. I was offered the opportunity on several occasions and I accepted because I felt that it was what I was supposed to do. In this particular talk I chose to "teach" them (actually we read together, all I did was act as a guide) the roots of what is called the Beatitudes in the book of Matthew from the Tanach. The only words I used from the so called New Testament were the words of Yeshua, everything else I showed them came from the Tanach. When I was done I had the priveledge of watching the lights come on in at least four individuals. One spoke openly and told me that those words had never been explained to them like that before, it was just something they we told to believe. So here we were, G-d's Word as spoken through the prophets as explained by a Jewish man by the name of Yeshua whose words were written down by somebody and wound up bound into the same book as the Tanach for whatever reasons and shared by the likes of me who has had the priveledge of understanding how to find the links (something which I learned by study and sharpened by my discussions at ROF and on other lists) and now at least four more people are asking the same questions and want to know for themselves how to get just that much closer to the the Almighty G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I should mention by the way that while this was happening, my Blackberry was merrily buzzing away with all of yesterdays emails which carried the discussion we all shared in. I'm not sure what these folks would have though about all of that. So that is the end of my stories. You are all most welcome to draw your own conclusions as always. As I said I am in no way implying that this should be the purpose of the Dialogue list, it is merely one outcome that I thought you should all know. I can fully understand why we should all distance ourselves from the falsehoods foisted on us by the church many of us came from. And if someone has a good argument to explain why I should disassociate myself from the words of a good Jewish man by the name of Yeshua whom I hold to be a prophet (without equating him with the distortion that he has been subjected to by the church over the centuries) I will will surely listen and give it consideration. But until then I will continue to hold the words of this man Yeshua in great esteem because it is his words that led me back to the G-d I fought against for so long. His words shine in the light of Torah and they should not be ignored. p.s; Please understand, that I have no desire to argue about whether he spoke these words or not, I think he did and anyway, it is beside the point, they are attributed to him, it is a fruitless argument in my opinion. Brachot v'Ahavat -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" : -------------- Me too, Joe. That was so beautifully expressed, and so appreciated. ~ Pat From: Helen Lusk Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Dear Joe: Thank you for your fine and wise explanation of your journey to truth. I was really encouraged and lifted by your words. Kind regards, Helen (Avigail/Sarah) ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55:38 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. Shalom Patty, With all due respect I would like to add my two bob's worth as we say in the land down under. I am one of those "Joes" who came out of Catholicism, no pun intended. I was born in Sicily and emigrated to Australia as a small child with my family. I went back in my teens to study art in my preparation to become an architect. Unfortunately the ARAB Petrol Crisis of the 70's put an end to my stay in Italy and I returned to Australia to be with my family. I now practise as an architect in the land of Oz. Why I telling you this ? Stay with me. I was born and bred a Catholic. That is until I went to Italy and visited Rome and St Peter's Basilica. As a young art student I was in awe. However I saw the slums of Rome. I then started to learn that this Basilica took some 200 years to build thanks be to the money extorted from the masses via indulgences. I then started to read that the mafia was laundering it's money through the Banca Ambrosiana or the Vatican Bank. I then read about the P2 secret lodges and all the other scandals that the Vatican was involved in. I was shattered ! Why ? Because I was looking for social justice. I renounced my faith and G-d. I became an atheist. Why ? Because the Catholic Church was my only concept of G-d. I know started reading Marx and Engels and the "Das Manifest" I became a communist and marched in the student protest rallies against the Vietnam War and the overthrow of the Alliende Government in Chile by Pinochet. However I then started to realize that communism was corrupted by the Soviets in the USSR and Mao Tse Tung in China. Why ? That famous word "Social Justice" was missing. I then became an easy go lucky normal human being. That is until G-d one day slam dunked me. For privacy reasons I will not elaborate I will however state that my whole life was on the line. I then returned to church and gave my heart to Jesus. I became a "born again Christian" joining the Pentecostal movement. This only lasted 10 months. Why ? You guessed it ! Lack of social justice ! Pastors dripping in gold and Giorgio Armani suites with their prosperity teachings and condemnation sermons of all those that lacked due to their limited faith. However, I did start to read the entire Bible with gusto. I was transformed. By the grace of HaShem I left Christianity behind. I literally lept into the unknown. But I finally met HaShem through the SOCIAL JUSTICE of TORAH. You might say that I was involved in the wrong kind of Christianity. But the book of Revelations calls the Woman with the golden cup full of all the abominations and the unclean things of her immorality "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS " and the abominations of the earth. So please do not point the finger solely at the Catholic Church. She is the mother that spawned ALL the daughter religions. She changed the feasts, the Shabbat, and interpolated much of the Tanakh. And the daughters followed. So much for the background. What is the most polluted river in the world ? ........ The Rio de la Plata between Argentina and Uruguay. It starts in the Andes as a bubbling brook fed by the rains from Heaven and the melting snow of the Andes. It moves quickly along as it cascades down ravines and rapids. If I were to drink the water , it is fresh and pure. If I were to swim in it , it is clean and invigorating. Now the river reaches the plains of human inhabitation. It slows down as it meanders across the country side.The human inhabitations start to pump their pollutants into the river. The same river is now awash with heavy metals, dioxin and human excrement. If I were to drink the water, it most likely would kill me. If I were to swim in the water , I would receive some nasty skin and eye infections. Same river, same water. The conclusion : If you want the pure, fresh,clean and invigorating water, you must go back to the SOURCE. This is not a challenge. This is not being sarcastic. To truely understand Yeshua , look to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. I posted the article on the "Suffering Servant", not as a challenge nor to be smart, but rather to highlight that the Jewish Rabbis came to these conclusion without the aid of the NT. Their source the TANAKH. Did Yeshua quote and teach from the NT ? Did Yeshua fulfill the Torah as you stated ? Were the sayings of Yeshua meant for a gentile WASP audience? What were the foundations of his teachings ? Believe it or not. The Rabbis are closer to the teachings of Yeshua than you might imagine. I have studied and mingled amongst them for the past 12 years. We may not see eye to eye and agree on many issues. But I will say that Yeshua seen through the filter of the Tanakh is not the bone of contention. The sticking point is the gentilized, Greek demi-god JC who is the figure head of a pagan institutionalized religion. The Christian religion and Christian concepts are as far away from the source as night is from day. We have everything to learn and everything to gain from the Jews. Rabbi Yeshua said to the Samaritan woman at the well on the foot of Mount Gerazim ( an Efryamite by the way) that they were ignorant and did not know what they worshiped, however the Jews had the revelation and knew : hence salvation is of the Jews or should I say in Hebrew "YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. Redemption is a process. The festivals of the Torah are HaShem's redemptive time clock. Time is short at the moment, but in due time I will post a personal study that I would like to share with the group entitled " Redemption, a study in time and space, from Egypt to the Promised Land" Yeshua kept and upheld the Torah, but did he fulfill it ? According to Peter in Acts chap 3. Yeshua did not. Has all been restored as HaShem promised through the prophets? No !!!! So Yeshua's mission and message is still not completed and is still work in progress. So as Ross stated clearly in last Sunday's Shul lesson the anointing of Yeshua was to proclaim SOCIAL JUSTICE and in so doing release the captives. Isaiah 61. This is also work in process. On the issue of Hawks and Doves, Hanoch has every right to air his opinion on the bloodbath perpetrated by the terrorists in Yerushalayim . We have no grounds whatsoever to moralize these acts of thuggery and wanton murder. They come from the very gates of hell. As I stated "Yesh Din v'Yesh Dayan" : There is one law and one God. This Almighty Judge is now commanding as written in Yoel ? ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????: ?????? ???? (???????) ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, ? ?????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? ???????????; ???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. 2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and divided My land. ? ?????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????, ????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. 3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. ? ???????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????, ?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. 9 Proclaim ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up. ? ??????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????. 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears; let the weak say: 'I am strong.' ?? ??????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, ??????? ?????? ????????????. 11 Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! ?? ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????: ???? ????, ?????? ????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. 12 Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. ?? ???????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-??????? ????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ?? ????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????: ???? ?????? ???? ??????, ???????? ????????. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. ?? ??????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. 15 The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. ?? ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 16 And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. ?? ???????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ?????????? ???-????????; ??? References: <303678.76873.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <071020082250.24598.487692500008900B0000601622218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks for this John. Most interesting to read. Chris On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 6:50 PM, wrote: > Hey Everyone, > > > > I guess I'm a little confused. > > > > I can understand the simple argument between the "Hawks and Doves", that > discussion has been going on for centuries and it is no surprise that there > are folks on both sides of that issue in our group here. > > > > But I'm having some trouble figuring out how we got from that discussion to > a baileywick between Judah and Ephraim. > > > > First let me say that if I said anything in any of my posts to infer > anything derrogatory about Judah (or Ephraim for that matter) then I humbly > apologize, it was certainly not intended. > > > > I am more than certain that anyone on this list could make an argument from > either the Tanach or the NT for either perspective. > > > > But I think we need to be careful about using generalities in our > discussions. Not everyone who calls themselves Judah is a Hawk and not > everyone who calls themselves Ephraim is a Dove. Not everyone who calls > themselves Ephraim thinks Yeshua is relevent to thier walk and not everyone > who calls themselves Judah does not. Not everyone in Ephraim is willing to > call themselves a Christian and not everyone in Judah believes that the > Torah is to be taken literally. I have my own opinions about each and every > one of those issues but that doesn't give me the right to make assumptions, > draw conclusions and generalize about anyone else. > > > > I also think it is very risky for any of us to pass judgement on anyone > elses "path" on this journey. I think on this list all of us have > acknowledged that our relationship with and understanding of the G-d of > Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is our destination. But if we are busy trying to > make sure the guy on the other "path" is walking safely, we may not see the > big 'ol ditch we ourselves are about to fall into. > > > > In any case, I posted the following letter to another list recently that is > having a similar discussion. I post it here (with a few relevent tweaks) in > the same spirit. I think it is complementary to Joe's recent post. In > fact, that is part of my bewilderment, the more we say to each other the > more we seem to be in violent agreement. > > > > My apologies for the duplication to those of you who might be on both > lists. > > > > John C. > > > > *************************************************************************** > > *I want to relate a couple of short stories to you. Before I do I want > you all to understand that I do so with the utmost humility and my only > objective is to illustrate a point. These things could and probably have > happened to someone else but as it is I can only honestly witness to the > things that have happened in my own life.* > > ** > > *I came from a Christian background. I have chosen to use that term > because it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that the term "Came out of > Christianity" means different things to different people on this list. To > some it simply means to have divested one's self of the doctrines of the > Christian church (Catholic or Protestant). To others it means to renounce > the "New (or Re-Newed) Testament". And to others it seems to mean to > disassociate one's self from Yeshua/Jesus altogether. I'm sure there are > many understandings between those choices and some I have not even heard of > yet. For myself I can say that I definitly fall in the first category and I > have revised my opinions on the validity of several parts of the New > Testament. But I have not disassociated myself from Yeshua. The first > story explains why.* > > ** > > *As I grew up there were no Rabbis knocking on my door to teach me > anything. In fact the only Jewish person I remember actually meeting > (though I'm sure there were others) was a friend of my parent's who owned a > clothing store in Manhattan. But there were "Christians" of many flavors on > every street corner all of whom wanted to save my soul for one reason or > another. My Catholic upbringing, combined with my love of science and the > almost fanatic urgency of the more fundamentalist Christians I had met, > eventually convinced me that G-d was someone's pipe dream. So to be honest > with you the reason I began reading the Bible at all was so that I would > know enough about Christianity to argue with them.* > > ** > > *But, as you would probably guess, that is where I first met G-d. Oh, I > was still not convinced and it only made me work harder to refute Him and I > did so for years. I watched all the big Jesus movies, Greatest Story Ever > Told and all of that. I thought and thought and refined my arguments. And > just when I was almost certain that I had this G-d thing all figured out, I > had an unmistakably real G-d experience, He called my bluff. He dared me to > teach a bunch of Independant Baptist men why He didn't exist. It was there > that I really met this guy by the name of Jesus. For the first time I > started to read his words as though he actually had a point to make, which > led me to reread the entire Bible from cover to cover twice as though it > were a book that actually held truth. By the time I was done, I had figured > out that G-d really did have it figured out and I didn't.* > > ** > > *So I dove head first into this new experience and got to know this guy > Jesus. Unfortunately, the pool I was swimming in was filled with church > doctrine, much of which I swallowed for a time. I knew something was wrong > from almost the beginning because, being the scientific type, I had a lot of > questions. But what I found (with maybe one exception) was that every > "Preacher" I asked questions of or tried to hold an honest and challenging > conversation with seemed to speak to me like they were reading a script or > they ignored me altogether. This grated on me for a long time and I > eventually gave up. I found that I could learn more by studying either by > myself or with some trusted friends, but even that was fraught with peril > for our relationships.* > > ** > > *It all eventually collapsed but it was right around that time that I > found Roots of Faith. The thing that attracted me to Ross and that small > group was that we could speak the unspeakable openly and at least try to > answer each others questions without thinking each other was going to hell > and taking the rest of us with them. We have had some challenges since that > time and some have left but we are still doing the same thing every week. > And yes, Yeshua's words are used quite often in those discussions. It gave > me hope that people of different understandings who all loved the G-d of > Abraham, Isaac and Jacob could actually talk and yes, argue, with each other > and still love each other enough to say Shalom the next day.* > > ** > > *The following is an excerpt from Ross's introduction on the ROF website. > It bears renewed scrutiny I think..* > > > > I am reminded of a wonderful saying found in the Sayings of the Fathers > (Mishna Avoth 2:6) that says, "The timid student does not learn and the > stern teacher does not educate." > > I really believe this to be true. I, like all of you have some firmly held > convictions. Many of us have MANY such convictions. I for one am learning to > listen and learn from those who have a differing opinion than I. Some of the > most valuable learning for me has been gained from actively listening to a > view with which I had not been familiar, but that was presented with > evidence and tact. > > So if you have honest questions about faith related issues and are open to > consider the views of others, to constructively and respectfully challenge > long established doctrines and dogmas, all the while allowing yourself to be > vulnerable and teachable then this list is probably for you. I have to > believe that most people try to act with integrity based upon what they see > and know at any given time. > > I want to encourage open advocacy and authentic inquiry on this list. In > order for this to work, and for you to remain on this list you must > understand and utilize both. > > Open advocacy can be defined as "stating a position that permits others to > state a different position." > > *This leads me to the second story.* > > > > *Again I want to say that I only tell this story as an example of what is > possible. It is in no way meant to beat my own drum or be seen as some sort > of collective objective. It is what happened in my life, so therefore I can > tell about it.* > > ** > > *Yesterday I was given the opportunity to speak to some good friends of > mine (about a dozen) who are technically still part of the Christian > amalgum. I say "given" because Idid not pursue this task. I was offered > the opportunity on several occasions and I accepted because I felt that it > was what I was supposed to do. In this particular talk I chose to "teach" > **them (actually we read together, all I did was act as a guide) the roots > of what is called the Beatitudes in the book of Matthew from the Tanach. > The only words I used from the so called New Testament were the words of > Yeshua, everything else I showed them came from the Tanach. When I was done > I had the priveledge of watching the lights come on in at least four > individuals. One spoke openly and told me that those words had never been > explained to them like that before, it was just something they we told to > believe.* > > > > *So here we were, G-d's Word as spoken through the prophets as explained > by a Jewish man by the name of Yeshua whose words were written down by > somebody and wound up bound into the same book as the Tanach for whatever > reasons and shared by the likes of me who has had the priveledge of > understanding how to find the links (something which I learned by study and > sharpened by my discussions at ROF and on other lists) and now at least four > more people are asking the same questions and want to know for themselves > how to get just that much closer to the the Almighty G-d of Abraham, Issac > and Jacob.* > > * * > > *I should mention by the way that while this was happening, my Blackberry > was merrily buzzing away with all of yesterdays emails which carried the > discussion we all shared in. I'm not sure what these folks would have > though about all of that.* > > * * > > *So that is the end of my stories. You are all most welcome to draw your > own conclusions as always.* > > * * > > *As I said I am in no way implying that this should be the purpose of > the Dialogue list, it is merely one outcome that I thought you should all > know.* > > * * > > *I can fully understand why we should all distance ourselves from the > falsehoods foisted on us by the church many of us came from. And if someone > has a good argument to explain why I should disassociate myself from the > words of a good Jewish man by the name of Yeshua whom I hold to be a prophet > (without equating him with the distortion that he has been subjected to by > the church over the centuries) I will will surely listen and give it > consideration. But until then I will continue to hold the words of this man > Yeshua in great esteem because it is his words that led me back to the G-d I > fought against for so long. His words shine in the light of Torah and they > should not be ignored.* > > * * > > *p.s; Please understand, that I have no desire to argue about whether > he spoke these words or not, I think he did and anyway, it is beside the > point, they are attributed to him, it is a fruitless argument in my opinion. > * > > * * > > *Brachot v'Ahavat* > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" < > patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- > > Me too, Joe. That was so beautifully expressed, and so appreciated. ~ > Pat > > *From:* Helen Lusk > *Sent:* Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:57 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. > > Dear Joe: > > Thank you for your fine and wise explanation of your journey to truth. I > was really encouraged and lifted by your words. > > Kind regards, > > Helen (Avigail/Sarah) > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: JOE INDOMENICO > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:55:38 AM > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. > > Shalom Patty, > > > With all due respect I would like to add my two bob's worth as we say in > the land down under. > > I am one of those *"Joes" *who came out of Catholicism, *no pun intended. > *I was born in Sicily and emigrated to Australia as a small child with my > family. I went back in my teens to study art in my preparation to become an > architect. Unfortunately the *ARAB Petrol Crisis *of the 70's put an end > to my stay in Italy and I returned to Australia to be with my family. I now > practise as an architect in the land of Oz. Why I telling you this ? Stay > with me. > > I was born and bred a Catholic. That is until I went to Italy and visited > Rome and St Peter's Basilica. As a young art student I was in awe. However I > saw the slums of Rome. I then started to learn that this Basilica took some > 200 years to build thanks be to the money extorted from the masses via > indulgences. I then started to read that the mafia was laundering it's money > through the *Banca Ambrosiana *or the Vatican Bank. I then read about the > P2 secret lodges and all the other scandals that the Vatican was involved > in. I was shattered ! Why ? Because I was looking for social justice. I > renounced my faith and G-d. I became an atheist. Why ? Because the Catholic > Church was my only concept of G-d. > > I know started reading Marx and Engels and the *"Das Manifest"* I became a > communist and marched in the student protest rallies against the Vietnam War > and the overthrow of the *Alliende Government* in Chile by Pinochet. > However I then started to realize that communism was corrupted by the > Soviets in the USSR and Mao Tse Tung in China. Why ? That famous word *"Social > Justice" *was missing. I then became an easy go lucky normal human being. > That is until G-d one day slam dunked me. For privacy reasons I will not > elaborate I will however state that my whole life was on the line. I then > returned to church and gave my heart to *Jesus. *I became a "*born again > Christian"* joining the Pentecostal movement. This only lasted 10 months. > Why ? You guessed it ! Lack of social justice ! Pastors dripping in gold and > Giorgio Armani suites with their prosperity teachings and condemnation > sermons of all those that lacked due to their limited faith. > > However, I did start to read the entire Bible with gusto. I was > transformed. By the grace of HaShem I left Christianity behind. I literally > lept into the unknown. But I finally met HaShem through the SOCIAL JUSTICE > of TORAH. > > You might say that I was involved in the wrong kind of Christianity. But > the book of Revelations calls the *Woman *with the golden cup full of all > the abominations and the unclean things of her immorality *"THE MOTHER OF > HARLOTS " *and the abominations of the earth. So please do not point the > finger solely at the Catholic Church. She is the mother that spawned ALL the > daughter religions. She changed the feasts, the Shabbat, and interpolated > much of the Tanakh. And the daughters followed. So much for the background. > > What is the most polluted river in the world ? ........ The Rio de la Plata > between Argentina and Uruguay. It starts in the Andes as a bubbling brook > fed by the rains from Heaven and the melting snow of the Andes. It moves > quickly along as it cascades down ravines and rapids. If I were to drink the > water , it is fresh and pure. If I were to swim in it , it is clean and > invigorating. > Now the river reaches the plains of human inhabitation. It slows down as it > meanders across the country side.The human inhabitations start to pump their > pollutants into the river. The same river is now awash with heavy metals, > dioxin and human excrement. If I were to drink the water, it most likely > would kill me. If I were to swim in the water , I would receive some nasty > skin and eye infections. Same river, same water. The conclusion : *If you > want the pure, fresh,clean and invigorating water, you must go back to the > SOURCE. > * > > This is not a challenge. This is not being sarcastic. To truely understand > Yeshua , look to the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. > I posted the article on the *"Suffering Servant", *not as a challenge nor > to be smart, but rather to highlight that the Jewish Rabbis came to these > conclusion without the aid of the NT. Their source the TANAKH. Did Yeshua > quote and teach from the NT ? Did Yeshua fulfill the Torah as you stated ? > Were the sayings of Yeshua meant for a gentile WASP audience? What were the > foundations of his teachings ? Believe it or not. The Rabbis are closer to > the teachings of Yeshua than you might imagine. I have studied and mingled > amongst them for the past 12 years. We may not see eye to eye and agree on > many issues. But I will say that Yeshua seen through the filter of the > Tanakh is not the bone of contention. The sticking point is the gentilized, > Greek demi-god JC who is the figure head of a pagan institutionalized > religion. The Christian religion and Christian concepts are as far away from > the source as night is from day. > > We have everything to learn and everything to gain from the Jews. Rabbi > Yeshua said to the Samaritan woman at the well on the foot of Mount Gerazim > ( an Efryamite by the way) that they were ignorant and did not know what > they worshiped, however the Jews had the revelation and knew : hence > salvation is of the Jews or should I say in Hebrew *"YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. > * > > Redemption is a process. The festivals of the Torah are HaShem's redemptive > time clock. Time is short at the moment, but in due time I will post a > personal study that I would like to share with the group entitled *" > Redemption, a study in time and space, from Egypt to the Promised Land" > * > > Yeshua kept and upheld the Torah, but did he fulfill it ? > According to Peter in Acts chap 3. Yeshua did not. Has all been restored as > HaShem promised through the prophets? No !!!! > So Yeshua's mission and message is still not completed and is still work in > progress. > > So as Ross stated clearly in last Sunday's Shul lesson the anointing of > Yeshua was to proclaim SOCIAL JUSTICE and in so doing release the captives. > * Isaiah 61. *This is also work in process. > > On the issue of Hawks and Doves, Hanoch has every right to air his opinion > on the bloodbath perpetrated by the terrorists in Yerushalayim . We have no > grounds whatsoever to moralize these acts of thuggery and wanton murder. > They come from the very gates of hell. As I stated *"Yesh Din v'Yesh > Dayan" : There is one law and one God. * > > This Almighty Judge is now commanding as written in *Yoel* > > *?* ????, ?????? ?????????? ????????--??????? ??????: ?????? ???? > (???????) ???-??????? ????????, ?????????????. > *1* For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back > the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, > *?* ?????????????, ???-????-?????????, ??????????????, ???-????? > ???????????; ???????????????? ?????? ????, ???-?????? ??????????? ?????????? > ?????? ????????? ?????????, ?????-???????, ????????. > > *2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of > Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there for My peopleand for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and > divided My land. * > *?* ?????-??????, ?????? ??????; ??????????? ???????? ??????????, > ????????????? ??????? ???????? ????????????. > *3* And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an > harlot, and sold a girl for wine, and have drunk. > > *?* ???????-????, ??????????, ?????????, ?????????; ????????, > ?????????????--????????? ???????, ???? ???????? ????????????. > *9* *Proclaim **ye this among the nations, prepare war; stir up the mighty > men; let all the men of war draw near, let them come up.* > *?* ??????? ????????? ??????????, ???????????????? ??????????; > ?????????, ?????? ???????? ?????. > *10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning-hooks into spears;*let the weak say: 'I am strong.' > *??* ??????? ??????? ???-????????? ?????????, ????????????; ???????, > ??????? ?????? ????????????. > *11* Haste ye, and come, all ye nations round about, and gather yourselves > together; thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD! > *??* ???????? ????????? ?????????, ???-????? ???????????: ???? ????, > ?????? ????????? ???-????-?????????--?????????. > *12* Let the nations be stirred up, and come up to the valley of > Jehoshaphat; for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. > *??* ???????? ??????, ???? ?????? ??????; ?????? ?????, ????-??????? > ????--????????? ??????????, ???? ?????? ???????. > *13* Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, tread ye, for > the winepress is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. > *??* ????????? ?????????, ???????? ????????: ???? ?????? ???? ??????, > ???????? ????????. > *14* Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the > LORD is near in the valley of decision. > *??* ??????? ????????, ???????; ???????????, ??????? ???????. > *15* The sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their > shining. > *??* ??????? ?????????? ????????, ??????????????? ?????? ??????, > ??????????, ???????? ???????; ??????? ??????? ????????, ???????? ??????? > ??????????. > *16* And the LORD shall roar from Zion, and utter His voice from > Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shall shake; but the LORD will be a > refuge unto His people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. > *??* ???????????, ???? ????? ?????? ??????????, ??????, ?????????? > ???-????????; ??? ????. {?} > *17* So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My > holy mountain; then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers > pass through her any more. *{S}* > *??* ??????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ??????, ????????????? > ?????????? ?????, ?????-???????? ????????, ??????? ?????; ?????????, ??????? > ?????? ?????, ??????????, ???-????? ???????????. > *18* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop > down sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the brooks of > Judah shall flow with waters; and a fountain shall come forth of the house > of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. > *??* ?????????, ?????????? ???????, ????????, ?????????? ???????? > ????????; ??????? ?????? ????????, ??????-???????? ???-?????? ??????????. > *19* Egypt shall be a desolation, and* Edom* shall be a desolate > wilderness, *for the violence against the children of Ju**dah, because > they have shed innocent blood in their** land.* > *?* ?????????, ???????? ???????; ?????????????, ?????? ??????. > *20* But Judah shall be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation > to generation. > *??* ???????????, ?????? ???-?????????; ???????, ?????? ??????????. {i} > > *21* And I will hold as innocent their blood that I have not held as > innocent; and the LORD dwelleth in Zion. *{P}* > > That Palestinian thug turned his plowshare into a sword. Jaffa Road is > one of the major east-west arterial roads in Yerushalim. I personally > believe that HaShem is telling us something here. The EAST-WEST connection > has been smeared with innocent Jewish *blood.....* Woe to us!! > > > Will we be the Chamberlain peacenik doves of WW2 that appeased Hitler? 6 > million Jews were murdered and over 50 million gentiles were killed. Have we > learned the bitter lessons of history ? Woe to the world when evil comes and > good men do nothing. > > Yisrael gave land for peace > Yisrael has 2 million Yisraeli Arab citizens with full rights. Do Jews have > the same rights in Arab countries? > 5 million Jews are surrounded by a sea of 200 million Arabs hell bent on > wiping them off the map. > All wars against the Jewish State were commenced by the Arabs. Who are the > doves ? Who are the Hawks? > > Patty please do not be naive to think that we are in a Utopian Messianic > State quite yet. The birth pangs of Mashiach are upon us. > > What is used to kosher according to the Torah? ........ WATER, FIRE, and > HEAT. How will HaShem kosher the world ? > > How do you cure cancer ? ........ CHEMO THERAPY, RADIATION THERAPY, and > EXCISION. How is HaShem going to remove the human cancer from the world ? > > I write this with all respect. The Lion of Yehuda will roar. I stand with > Yehuda ( the bow) as the efrayimite arrow. Both in the hand of HaShem. > > Finally, please read the attached article. > > http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/07/war-games-has-begun.html > > The road to truth starts with one's admittance of error. > Catholicism , Communism , Christianity.......... and still admitting > error................. but then again *YESHUA IS OF YEHUDI. > * > > *Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/ab7199a7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 22:02:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:02:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "When the Loser is a Winner" Message-ID: When the Loser is a Winner (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=0011BEY38z8ddN2h2mHAC_MpHJsq4p5Vr8JjV_w9UyAOPo6CsZlJERbtUJML2m2A5TdxSp35mlCCsGHtI4N84a0IA4aQsZPtiFbRyc7yzvDR1jN3xg9x3VHID8Px_fdNoS RPwKVW3RxASTMwVXXloeP4-lg6AH-16U7) The Talmud teaches that King Solomon wrote the Book of Ecclesiastes after he saw prophetically that his kingdom and the Temple that he worked so hard to build would be destroyed. Imagine what a devastating realization that must have been to know that what you invested your entire life will be destroyed. We can understand why he bemoaned, "Futility of futilities ... what profits does a man have from all his work under the sun." However, his ultimate resolution was "Revere G-d, live by His commandments -- for this is all man is." King Solomon realized that our real accomplishments in life is not building the kingdom or the temple on earth, but what we make of ourselves -- the kingdom and temple we build in our inner world. This does not mean that you should not build in this world but rather that you should recognize that what you build on the outside is not the goal but the means to what you build on the inside. The early pioneers who courageously came to re- settle the land of Israel would often sing, "We have come to build this land and to be built by it." What is real and lasting about what you build on the outside is how it builds you and others on the inside. When you live with this understanding you will not be devastated when your kingdom or your temple is destroyed. You will realize that you did the will of G-d to build the kingdom and the temple and although they are destroyed what you built inside yourself can never be destroyed. It is not as if the past was all for naught and you will have to start all over again. Rather you now have new opportunities to continue to build yourself through the challenges and choices the destruction creates. We were not put on earth to build this world but to build ourselves into the living image of G-d. We can always be growing, even -- and sometimes, especially -- when the world around us is falling apart. Sometimes the winner is truly the loser and the loser the winner. If the winner learns nothing from his victory and doesn't grow into a better person, if he simply becomes haughty and obnoxious, then though he holds the trophy in his hands, he is actually the loser. However, if the loser accepts his loss humbly, overcomes feelings of anger, self-pity and chooses to be happy with his lot, then he actually walks off with the greatest victory -- an evolved self. He is the trophy. The Talmud teaches that whatever happens to us is always for the best. People assume that means that if I lose this job it must mean that an even better job is about to come my way. But I am not sure that this is always the case. Losing that great job may be for the best because the next job, which pays less and throws you into a company of very difficult people, gives you a better context for some very life changing choices to know G-d and do good. In this new lousy job you will make less money but become more. In the end, what is best is not what happens on the outside but what happens on the inside. Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/ed27bd72/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 22:10:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:10:46 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fitna the movie; in English Message-ID: For those of you who haven't seen this - it's a MUST... Hanoch _Click here: Video: Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)_ (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410) **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/aaf71b61/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 22:33:41 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:33:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Check out YouTube - Remedy- Never Again Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, I don't expect that too many folks on this list knows much about 'rap music,' but this is one video you NEED to see. Remedy who has performed with the mainstream rap group, Wu Tang, is Jewish, and he wrote 'Never Again' based on what happened to his family during the holocaust...I've found it VERY powerful... _Click here: YouTube - Remedy- Never Again_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwM8ylfQeWY) Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/f06a7d8f/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 10 22:51:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:51:00 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A Kiddush HaShem in Jerusalem Message-ID: Kiddush HaShem in Jerusalem 8 Tammuz 5768, 11 July 08 06:39 by Rabbi Eliezer Waldman (IsraelNN.com) Last Wednesday we experienced an extraordinary Kiddush HaShem (sanctification of G-d's name) when an Arab murderer armed with a huge bulldozer went on a rampage on the streets of Jerusalem. He flattened occupied cars, turned over a bus and ran over innocent pedestrians until his reign of terror was finally stopped by what was described as "a passerby." As a result of five minutes of horror, two mothers and a grandfather were killed, and scores of others injured. That "passerby" was "M", a hesder yeshiva boy on leave from a special army unit. He took personal responsibility and immediately understood that he had to take action to save fellow Jews. He endangered his own life by climbing onto the bulldozer, where he took a gun from a security guard and shot the savage terrorist, thereby putting an end to the ruthless killing. This brave young hero, "M", is one of our students at the Yeshiva of Kiryat Arba. When asked how he had the courage and determination to act so swiftly, he explained that he was inspired by the valiant actions of his brother-in-law, who killed the Mercaz Harav terrorist, and by the educational values of faith in the Almighty, devotion to the ideals of the Torah and taking responsibility for each of his Jewish brethren. He mentioned several Torah commandments that instruct us to kill our enemies before they kill us, and the warning in parshat Kedoshim not to stand idly by the spilling of your neighbor's blood (Vayikra 19:16). Any act taken to save Jewish lives from their murderers is a sanctification of G-d's name. Unfortunately, this heroic action by "M" was taken after some of the police and security personnel did not respond adequately or quickly enough to save lives. I cannot put the blame in its entirety on these security people, the blame lies with the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense and others senior officials, who have created an atmosphere of trepidation, of not responding to terror immediately, and fear of getting involved in terror prevention. Any law enforcement officer who uses his weapon and succeeds in deterring a crime is liable to be arrested and dragged through the courts for years. This depressing situation leads to a climate which stimulates terror and completely destroys the government's terror deterrent capabilities. For seven years, the government has done nothing substantial against Kassam rockets fired on Sderot and other western Negev towns. This inaction or "restraint" has encouraged the terrorists to continue their daily bombardment of Jewish towns. The failure to prevent aggression, and weakness of the Israeli government to secure the lives of its Jewish citizens, is a result of the self-degrading Israeli army fleeing from Lebanon and the crime of uprooting the Gush Katif and northern Shomron Jews from their homes in the Land of Israel. The Arabs quickly grasped the utter deterioration of Israel's basic moral obligation to protect her people and willingness to yield her rights to her homeland. There was a total lack of courage and determination to initiate operations that would prevent enemy violence and deter them from daring to even think of attacking or endangering Jewish lives. The moral principle by which every Jewish man, woman and child knew that his life could depend on Jewish soldiers has always been the backbone of the Jewish State. The bravery and valor of a Jewish warrior was the pride of the Jewish people, and the world revered us as well. Saving Jewish lives was always a sacred mission even if it had to be carried out on foreign soil like Entebbe, thirty two years ago on July 4, 1976. Far and wide it was known that the Israeli government would send soldiers to distant places and go to all lengths to save Jewish lives. But today, in the heart of Jerusalem, the government's reaction indicates a loss of all national survival instincts; our leadership has morally deteriorated by showing indifference and taking no notice of impending danger. Our leaders have become paralyzed and exhibit no willingness to fight the enemy. The exemplary officer at Mercaz Harav and his brother-in-law, our student "M", have thrust a new Jewish pride and determination into the confused atmosphere of national life in Israel. They have restored our dignity. They have restored the deepest essence of the Zionist ideal by navigating their actions according to a map of faith and Torah values. Their sanctification of the Almighty demonstrates that only Zionism which derives its power from Divine values of Jewish faith is able to confront and eliminate the threat to Jewish existence in Israel. Only a Zionism of faith will create the motivation and courage to overcome the moral fatigue of our government, and revitalize the enthusiasm and pioneering spirit inherent in our people. This thought is expressed clearly in the words of Bilaam, in this week's parsha, in which we find a glowing description of Jewish valor which compares the awakening of Israel to a leopard and lion: "Behold the nation will rise up as a leopard, and as a lion will demonstrate his prowess." (Bamidbar 23:24) The commentary of Rashi explains the source of the power of the leopard and the prowess of the lion: "They rise up early in the morning to recite the S'hma, to put on tefilin and tzitzit." Our spiritual roots are brought to life by the performance of mitzvot that reveal our allegiance and devotion to the word of G-d, which gives us the power to rise up against our enemies. The phenomenon of a Kiryat Arba hesder yeshiva student taking swift and decisive action against a terrorist murderer, thereby preventing him from taking the lives of more innocent Jews, is a direct result of the moral values ingrained in him by his rabbis. We are grateful to the Almighty who has granted us the privilege of being part of an educational process that produces such bravery and selfless devotion, that brought about a sanctification of HaShem and serves as a shining example to all of us. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080710/3dfd4c8f/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jul 11 01:21:08 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:21:08 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) Message-ID: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/27ce1f6d/attachment.html From plmorrow at juno.com Fri Jul 11 05:56:58 2008 From: plmorrow at juno.com (Patricia L. Morrow) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:56:58 GMT Subject: [Dialogue] Dr. Tabor's books Message-ID: <20080711.065658.14417.3@webmail07.dca.untd.com> You can also obtain The Jesus Dynasty from most public libraries. It is fascinating; I am reading it right now. VERY eye-opening. Also own Restoring Abrahamic Faith. Great works. PM ____________________________________________________________ Smart Girls Secret Weapon Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews, Get Helpful Tips, Tricks and Sam http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/JKFkuJNzubtAw30AOi5bjcP6LW8iuKYj9AkZ58n1D4ssxG4qrWpJOz/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/8da452a4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 11 06:23:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:23:52 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - the Lekarev Report Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 8 Tammuz 5768 July 11, 2008 Shabbat Shalom And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples, as dew from Hashem, as showers upon the grass, that are not looked for from man, nor awaited at the hands of the sons of men. Micah 5:7 **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/e26704de/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 11 06:26:46 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 04:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - the Lekarev Report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <313736.52148.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Hanoch, ? Do you think this context "Jacob" refers to "Judah" or "Israel" or both? ? Tracy --- On Fri, 7/11/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - the Lekarev Report To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 6:23 AM The Lekarev Report 8 Tammuz 5768 July 11, 2008 Shabbat Shalom And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many peoples, as dew from Hashem, as showers upon the grass, that are not looked for from man, nor awaited at the hands of the sons of men. Micah 5:7 Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/983cb5e5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 11 06:45:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:45:25 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom - the Lekarev Report Message-ID: Hey Tracy - I'm running out the door right now, so I don't have the time to read the context around those verses, but I can tell you this, right off the top of my head, from those verses alone: In the past (even recently) I would have said it referred to Ephraim. However, based on new facts that I've come to be made aware of, I would now say that it refers BOTH to Ephraim AND Judah; although I expect the numbers of Judah to be lower. When I refer to Judah in this context, I am referring to LOST Judah as well. I'll try to expound on this, over the weekend, if you're interested. Just let me know - sorry for being so brief now. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/9d74a410/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Fri Jul 11 06:46:04 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:46:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) In-Reply-To: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> References: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <487747FC.2050002@gninc.ca> Shabat Shalom brother Joe I was going to write you a long letter, I got up early enough, but checking out the e-mails after some time for devotions, time is running out again.I am surprised again and again, how you and me have run into the same studies. I have an old video on the ten lost tribes. I am quite well aquainted with Kosher Torah by Ariel Bar Tzadok. What a blessing to go over it again . Shabat Shalom Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > Something to meditate on as we prepare for Shabbat. > > /Shabbat Shalom > JOE. > /http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/shabatsecrets.pdf > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1544 - Release Date: 10/07/2008 7:37 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080711/59abbadf/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 12 13:03:37 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:03:37 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <071220081803.8049.4878F1F800044A2E00001F7122218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> In my humble opinion, anyone that calls themselves an Ephraimite and does not do so in all humility, has missed the boat all together. When the prodigal son returned home, he realized that it was by his fathers grace alone that he had any inheritance at all. There was nothing for him to be proud about. On the other hand, despite the older brothers faithfulness, there was nothing for him to be proud about either, because his inheritance was soley dependant on his fathers grace, not his faithfulness. So, it seems that there is plenty of reasons for us all to be humble. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "calb fordham" : -------------- It didn't sound as intense as you think. Sometimes we just get passionate about certain topics. We think people should convert if that's where HaShem leads them. We have several friends who have converted and we think that is great. It didn't sound like you were trying to force people to do this. We think everyone should at least visit a synaguogue. We have enjoyed Aish for 3 years now. It is one of our favorite websites. We love their Jewlarious videos also. You are right, they have a wealth of knowledge and information. Yes, we should approach our Jewish brothers in humility. We get so tired of seeing Ephramites acting as if they have it all right and they have something to teach Judah. Yes, we were worshipping idols all these years as they were guarding Torah. What DO we have to offer? On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had not intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. Also I was not encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even encouraging attending a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls someone that way, they need to do it, of course. I had more in mind the wealth of information out there - if we are truly looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are wonderful Jewish authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes to mind. I just feel very strongly that we need to remember the things HaSHem says about us (as Ephraimites) that really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of course, we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need to approach our Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the great respect they deserve for having zealously guarded, studied, taught about, and died for Torah these thousands of years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many of us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long way from where we once were, but I still think we are extremely proud of ourselves and all we think we have to offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed offer Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His Lost Tribes be regathered, and that it is necessary that we return and again become The Whole House of Israel, for the sake of the world at large..........but I wonder what we actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just something I wonder about, if anyone has some ideas. My love your very precious family, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/848177a5/attachment.html From bestpbx at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 13:19:20 2008 From: bestpbx at gmail.com (Sharon Berry) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:19:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) In-Reply-To: <487747FC.2050002@gninc.ca> References: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> <487747FC.2050002@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <65623bd30807121119p7da6d9c8sfa4fff8e094f7312@mail.gmail.com> Can someone please tell me how to get out of the group. It is filling my in-box every day and I do not have time to devote to this. I want OUT! Thank you. Sharon On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Cornie Reimer wrote: > Shabat Shalom brother Joe > I was going to write you a long letter, I got up early enough, but checking > out the e-mails after some time for devotions, time is running out again.I > am surprised again and again, how you and me have run into the same studies. > I have an old video on the ten lost tribes. I am quite well aquainted with > Kosher Torah by Ariel Bar Tzadok. What a blessing to go over it again . > > Shabat Shalom Cornie > > > > JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > Shalom Chaverim, > > Something to meditate on as we prepare for Shabbat. > > *Shabbat Shalom > JOE. > *http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/shabatsecrets.pdf > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1544 - Release Date: 10/07/2008 7:37 AM > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/6885a5dc/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 12 13:20:18 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:20:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) In-Reply-To: <65623bd30807121119p7da6d9c8sfa4fff8e094f7312@mail.gmail.com> References: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> <487747FC.2050002@gninc.ca><65623bd30807121119p7da6d9c8sfa4fff8e094f7312@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <854546600-1215887249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-557194306-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Ross, please remove Sharon from the list. Shabbat Shalom Sharon. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Sharon Berry" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:19:20 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) _______________________________________________ From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jul 12 13:46:53 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:46:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves.. In-Reply-To: <071220081803.8049.4878F1F800044A2E00001F7122218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <071220081803.8049.4878F1F800044A2E00001F7122218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <4878FC1D.8070103@gninc.ca> How true John, that reflects so exactly my case. I have no way to wriggle out of it. I don't even know who I am! Thank you. Cornie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > In my humble opinion, anyone that calls themselves an Ephraimite and > does not do so in all humility, has missed the boat all together. > When the prodigal son returned home, he realized that it was by his > fathers grace alone that he had any inheritance at all. There was > nothing for him to be proud about. > > On the other hand, despite the older brothers faithfulness, there was > nothing for him to be proud about either, because his inheritance was > soley dependant on his fathers grace, not his faithfulness. > > So, it seems that there is plenty of reasons for us all to be humble. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from "calb fordham" > : -------------- > > It didn't sound as intense as you think. Sometimes we just get > passionate about certain topics. We think people should convert > if that's where HaShem leads them. We have several friends who > have converted and we think that is great. It didn't sound like > you were trying to force people to do this. We think everyone > should at least visit a synaguogue. We have enjoyed Aish for 3 > years now. It is one of our favorite websites. We love their > Jewlarious videos also. You are right, they have a wealth of > knowledge and information. Yes, we should approach our Jewish > brothers in humility. We get so tired of seeing Ephramites > acting as if they have it all right and they have something to > teach Judah. Yes, we were worshipping idols all these years as > they were guarding Torah. What DO we have to offer? > > On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Pat Robbins > > > wrote: > > Thank you for being so nice, Chris and Amber. I actually had > not intended to sound so intense in the email I wrote below. > Also I was not encouraging conversion at all, nor was I even > encouraging attending a Synagogue, although if HaSHem calls > someone that way, they need to do it, of course. I had more > in mind the wealth of information out there - if we are truly > looking for some answers to specific questions - that can be > found via the internet from sites like Aish. And there are > wonderful Jewish authors - the late, great Aryeh Kaplan comes > to mind. I just feel very strongly that we need to remember > the things HaSHem says about us (as Ephraimites) that > really aren't too complementary. Quite naturally of course, > we just want to concentrate on the good things, but we need be > mindful of our shortcomings as well! And I believe we need > to approach our Jewish brothers in humility, showing them the > great respect they deserve for having zealously guarded, > studied, taught about, and died for Torah these thousands of > years while we were off bowing down to our idols. Yes, many > of us have come out of Christianity, and have come a very long > way from where we once were, but I still think we > are extremely proud of ourselves and all we think we have to > offer Judah. In fact, I wonder what Ephraim does indeed offer > Judah? I mean, I know that it is the will of G-d that His > Lost Tribes be regathered, and that it is necessary that > we return and again become The Whole House of Israel, for the > sake of the world at large..........but I wonder what we > actually have that Judah needs, other than our strength in > numbers? What is it that we will give to Judah? - Just > something I wonder about, if anyone has some ideas. > > My love your very precious family, > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:14 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves... > > Thanks Pat! You are SO right. Our eyes have been opened and > are still being opened to how misled we were! We have learned > more in five years than we did in thirty! We are still > babies! Pray for us! Chris and Amber Fordham > > On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Pat Robbins > > wrote: > > Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of > Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient > Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken > them. Clinging tenaciously to those > teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" > revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of > denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of > underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of > N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency > to measure everything by > their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is > bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is > still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the > Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this > arrogance is found often in Tanach: > > ** > *"..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against > thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, > and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in > the midst of it,..." Is 7:5* > ** > ** > *"...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, > The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn > stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change > them for cedars." Is 9:9* > ** > ** > *"...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against > Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20* > ** > ** > *"The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the > adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not > envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13* > ** > ** > *"Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and > to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at > the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with > wine!" Is 28:1* > ** > ** > *"The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be > trodden under feet...." Is 28:3* > ** > ** > *"...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is > defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to > their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of > them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4* > ** > ** > *"And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and > they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for > all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without > heart...." Hos 7:10* > ** > ** > *"....and they became detestable like the thing which they > loved." Hos 9:11* > ** > ** > *"Their heart is divided; now they shall be found > guilty.." Hos 10:2* > ** > ** > *"..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst > trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13* > ** > ** > *"Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of > Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and > is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2* > ** > ** > *"And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found > wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no > iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9* > ** > ** > It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah > has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, > and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to > research such subjects is www.aish.com > > For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches > concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type > into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or > "rebellious son." > > While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a > rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be > stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn > the importance of both parents being in agreement > concerning what they teach and expect from their > children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted > for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions > HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable > warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing > children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing > families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" > and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, > and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the > family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is > taught his responsibility, as well as the dire > consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families > create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to > be a light unto all the nations of the earth. > > Avigail/Pat > > > > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' > > Shalom v'boker tov - > > I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're > really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are > applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying > Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, > like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard > Nixon and George McGovern. > > The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for > instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as > opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will > (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want > peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on > this list. > > However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our > time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of > Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to > anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish > concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT > find these concepts in the *Torah*.... > > And I think this - *Torah*, is the real heart of the > issue. There are those who want to live a life according > to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) > the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for > several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring > how /they /do it. While at the same time, insisting that > Yeshua/Jesus has to have /some/ role in /their/ personal > Torah observance. > > Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to > Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I > just want people to begin to realize what is actually > involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of > their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want > to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which > colors the way they read and understand everything. > > Just some venting at 5:15am.... > > */Hanoch/* > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/b6b4e7a9/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Jul 12 15:30:20 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:30:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) References: <4876FBD4.8060107@westnet.com.au> <487747FC.2050002@gninc.ca> <65623bd30807121119p7da6d9c8sfa4fff8e094f7312@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002201c8e45e$1ad27cc0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Sharon....may your time and desire to dialogue with us increase....... Simply go to this site....http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue, you can go to the bottom of the "page" and click unsubscribe......www.rootsoffaith.org dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon Berry To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] shabatsecrets.pdf (application/pdf Object) Can someone please tell me how to get out of the group. It is filling my in-box every day and I do not have time to devote to this. I want OUT! Thank you. Sharon On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Cornie Reimer wrote: Shabat Shalom brother Joe I was going to write you a long letter, I got up early enough, but checking out the e-mails after some time for devotions, time is running out again.I am surprised again and again, how you and me have run into the same studies. I have an old video on the ten lost tribes. I am quite well aquainted with Kosher Torah by Ariel Bar Tzadok. What a blessing to go over it again . Shabat Shalom Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Chaverim, Something to meditate on as we prepare for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom JOE. http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/shabatsecrets.pdf -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1544 - Release Date: 10/07/2008 7:37 AM _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/2f1e89ed/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 12 16:32:27 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <109960.91028.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Pat, ? I think maybe there was a "confluence" of things going on in my life?the week before?this exchange,?in the midst of which, I got my feathers ruffled a little and I responded out of order. Please, you and anyone else whom I may have offended, accept my apologies. ? Although I made relevant points - reading back over your original words, I would have to agree?with most?of your points?- And, in fact, the?Modus Operandi you describe has been my practice for years. ? So, again, please forgive me for speaking to you in such a tone, ? Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:44 PM Sorry, Tracy.??When I speak of?Ephraimites, I include?myself!? Like you, I am among those who have come out of Christianity.? I was and still am convicted by the Scriptures I quoted below.? They are very pointed, and I have repented of, and am still working on some of the cherished beliefs that I once "drunkenly, arrogantly, rebelliously" (according to G-d's Word)?held in great esteem, without even realizing that I was contradicting?His Word.? ? I believe that we have gone to Judah trying to teach him our ways, when Tanach teaches that we need to be asking Judah to teach us his ways.? We are to take hold of the Tzit-Tzit of the Jew, not the other way around.? I was trying to be funny by saying "bass-akwards," not trying to provoke you or anyone else.? But I do feel that to try to interpret Torah through the N.T. is backward.? N.T. must be interpreted through Torah.? I think we all agree on this, so had no idea that saying so would be upsetting to anyone. ? Your relative whether you like it?not (kidding?here!!!!), ? Pat?? ? ? From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala"?which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews ? http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html ? http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html ? or kabala ? http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html ? or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... ? >From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights?from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. ? Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? ? ? But I hope and pray for us daily, ? Tracy ? --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch.? Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path?some of their most beloved teachings have taken them.? Clinging tenaciously to those teachings,?they?believe they?have received a?"greater" revelation of?HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating?Torah.? There is?a prevalence of underlying?arrogance concerning?the superiority of N.T.?which causes this blindness.? Ephraim has a tendency to?measure?everything?by their?"N.T.".................including Torah!?? This is bass-ackkwards!!!!!? It reveals?that Ephraim is still?caught in?its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as?"drunkenness."? Reference of this arrogance is?found often in Tanach: ? ? "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil?counsel against thee, saying, ?Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..."? Is 7:5 ? ? "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy?of heart,? The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones:? the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars."? Is 9:9 ? ? "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe:? and they together are against Yehuda."? Is?9:20 ? ? "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off:? Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....."? Is 11:13 ? ? "Woe to? the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!"? Is 28:1 ? ? "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...."? Is 28:3 ? ? "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled.? Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d:? for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 ? ? "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face:? and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this.? Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...."? Hos 7:10 ? ? "....and they became detestable like the thing?which they loved."? Hos 9:11 ? ? "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.."? Hos 10:2 ? ? "..you have eaten the fruit of lies:? because thou didst trust in thy way..."? Hos 10:13 ? ? "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit:? but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones."? Hos 12:1-2 ? ? "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself:? in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin."?? Hos 12:9 ? ? It would be wise for?Ephraimites?to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf.? A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com? ? For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism?teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son."?? ? While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was?actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound.? Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from?their children.? Otherwise,?the?son ("ben")?cannot be indicted for his disobedience.??Added to?all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for?leading an upright life, these?formidable warnings?create strong,?well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced,?G-d-fearing families.??In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son,"??have to do with family dynamics, and show us the?great importance HaSHem places upon the ?family unit.??Through Torah, each member of that unit?is taught his responsibility, as?well as ?the dire consequences for shirking responsibility.? Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel?are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth.? ? Avigail/Pat ? ? ? From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - ? ??? I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah.? These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern.? ? ????The terms?may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace.? Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list.? ? ????However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone.? Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies.? You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... ? ????And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue.? There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it.? While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. ? ????Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually).? I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities.? And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. ? ????Just some venting at 5:15am.... ? ????????????????Hanoch ???? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/2cf3be9c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 19:31:52 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:31:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <109960.91028.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <109960.91028.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Tracy, Am so sorry I caused you more pain than you were already experiencing. There is no need to apologize to me, but thank you for doing so. I wasn't trying to belittle Ephraim, but to point out that according to Scripture we have historically had certain tendencies, and they sometimes (quiet unconsciously) show up in our attitudes toward Judah and the Jewish stance concerning the infallibility of Torah. I have often tried to explain to Jews why we, as returning Lost Tribes, have some of the attitudes we do. I wasn't thinking about, as I wrote it, what it would sound like to Ephraim. I AM Ephraim. These ARE my sins, of which I am repenting. And I feel free to speak of them openly to Judah (I was actually addressing that email to Hanoch, but speaking as I do to my Jewish friends in general). I wasn't trying to stir up controversy, and the last thing I was trying to do was pit brother against brother, Ephraim against Judah! I think it most wonderful that many here, including yourself, are able to reach out to Ephraimites and make them understand what the N.T. is REALLY saying. I've not been able to do that with much success, but I have been successful (on an admittedly small scale, but with what I consider exciting results) in reaching out to Judah about the fact that we ARE their long lost brothers, and we ARE in the process of getting our act together, repenting, and wishing to join ourselves to them. I always make it clear that we honor, respect and appreciate them for having held onto the truth of Torah during all the years we have been lost in our idolatries. I'm most assuredly NOT saying that I think Judah perfect! You've really no idea how difficult it can be for Converts. Many times you are made to feel an outsider, but I can understand the hesitancy that most Jews feel concerning us (me). We/I HAVE been arrogant, and many times still behave so without even realizing how we/I come off to our Jewish brothers. As for "which Judaim" do I accept? I just do what a very wise young friend of mine suggests (thank you, Amber), I "chew up the meat (no offense to vegetarianism!!!!) and spit out the bones!" But that's Okay. The Rabbis let you take what you will from them. I really can't tell you how many times it happened, back when we were converting some 18 years ago, that as the Rabbi was teaching us, I would think, "Oh, my gosh! He believes in Yeshua! He's teaching EXACTLY what Yeshua taught!!!!" It took time for me to realize that the reason our Rabbi sounded like Yeshua was BECAUSE YESHUA WAS A RABBI!!!! He was teaching what Rabbis teach. It's as simple as that. I'm not talking about his (Yeshua's) seemingly Karaite stance against the fences around the Law, but just his basic Torah-based teachings. (You see, I didn't know enough about the perfection and beauty of Torah to know that Yeshua was teaching just straight Torah!) I have absolutely, positively NOTHING AGAINST Yeshua. I look so very forward to meeting him and being able to thank him someday for his devotion to Torah, and all that he imparted to me/us. So please, Tracy, forgive my having caused this problem by not adequately expressing what I was trying to convey. I was focused in large part on the question that had been put to us a couple of days earlier regarding whether you are to follow Torah in the instance of "stoning a rebellious child (son) or person caught in adultery." That question sounded to me like a suggestion that we were surely not expected to follow Torah if it offends our sensibilities, and I was answering that we should look to the Rabbis first for their answers before making assumptions of our own. Again, thank you, Tracy, and Shavua Tov, Avigail/Pat From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Dear Pat, I think maybe there was a "confluence" of things going on in my life the week before this exchange, in the midst of which, I got my feathers ruffled a little and I responded out of order. Please, you and anyone else whom I may have offended, accept my apologies. Although I made relevant points - reading back over your original words, I would have to agree with most of your points - And, in fact, the Modus Operandi you describe has been my practice for years. So, again, please forgive me for speaking to you in such a tone, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:44 PM Sorry, Tracy. When I speak of Ephraimites, I include myself! Like you, I am among those who have come out of Christianity. I was and still am convicted by the Scriptures I quoted below. They are very pointed, and I have repented of, and am still working on some of the cherished beliefs that I once "drunkenly, arrogantly, rebelliously" (according to G-d's Word) held in great esteem, without even realizing that I was contradicting His Word. I believe that we have gone to Judah trying to teach him our ways, when Tanach teaches that we need to be asking Judah to teach us his ways. We are to take hold of the Tzit-Tzit of the Jew, not the other way around. I was trying to be funny by saying "bass-akwards," not trying to provoke you or anyone else. But I do feel that to try to interpret Torah through the N.T. is backward. N.T. must be interpreted through Torah. I think we all agree on this, so had no idea that saying so would be upsetting to anyone. Your relative whether you like it not (kidding here!!!!), Pat From: Tracy Osborne Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 3:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Huh, maybe us arrogant "backass", stupid, ephraimites would like to know, which of you perfect Judahites we should ask about many subjects, such as, say "Re-incarnation" or "Kabala" which so dominates Judaism today and is totally de-bunked by other Orthodox Jews http://www.mesora.org/_private/mesora.html http://saqavyah.tripod.com/id24.html or kabala http://www.mesora.org/zohar.html or how should we keep kosher by Ka-arite or Chabad or Traditional Jews or Reform Jews, or Reconstructionist Jews or Conservative Jews ....on and on and on on many issues this can go... From the conversations that I've heard over the past few months, it is not only Ephraimites who have an arrogance problem and who ignore legitimate questions, statements, and insights from the Torah - Judahites have some GIGANTIC problems of there own. Funny, and I actually dreamed last night that I was going thru conversion! However, I don't really know which of the numerous groups it was through? But I hope and pray for us daily, Tracy --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 1:32 PM Most appreciated, Hanoch. Those coming out of Christianity do not realize how far from the Ancient Path some of their most beloved teachings have taken them. Clinging tenaciously to those teachings, they believe they have received a "greater" revelation of HaSHem - even to the point of denigrating Torah. There is a prevalence of underlying arrogance concerning the superiority of N.T. which causes this blindness. Ephraim has a tendency to measure everything by their "N.T.".................including Torah! This is bass-ackkwards!!!!! It reveals that Ephraim is still caught in its old rebellious patterns, which the Prophets referred to as "drunkenness." Reference of this arrogance is found often in Tanach: "..because..Ephraim..have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Yehuda, and harass it, and let us make a breach in it for us, and set a king in the midst of it,..." Is 7:5 "...Ephraim...that say in pride and arrogancy of heart, The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them for cedars." Is 9:9 "...Menashe against Ephraim; and Ephraim against Menashe: and they together are against Yehuda." Is 9:20 "The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Yehuda shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Yehuda....." Is 11:13 "Woe to the crown of pride of the drunkards Ephraim, and to the fading flower of his glorious beauty which is at the head of the rich valley of those who are overcome with wine!" Is 28:1 "The crown of pride of the drunkards of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet...." Is 28:3 "...O Ephraim, thou committest harlotry, and Yisrael is defiled. Their doings will not allow them to return to their G-d: for the spirit of harlotry is in the midst of them, and they have not known the L-RD." Hos 5:3-4 "And the pride of Yisrael testifies to his face: and they do not return to the L-RD their G-d, nor seek him for all this. Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart...." Hos 7:10 "....and they became detestable like the thing which they loved." Hos 9:11 "Their heart is divided; now they shall be found guilty.." Hos 10:2 "..you have eaten the fruit of lies: because thou didst trust in thy way..." Hos 10:13 "Ephraim compasses Me about with lies, and the house of Yisrael with deceit: but Yehuda still rules with G-d, and is faithful with holy ones." Hos 12:1-2 "And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found wealth for myself: in all my labours they shall find no iniquity in me that were sin." Hos 12:9 It would be wise for Ephraimites to find out what Judah has to say concerning their questions/critiques of Torah, and put their N.T.'s on the shelf. A good place to research such subjects is www.aish.com For instance, if one wished to know what Judaism teaches concerning adultery or a rebellious son, they could type into Aish's search engine the word/words "adultery" or "rebellious son." While I cannot think of an instance in Torah where a rebellious son was actually brought by his parents to be stoned, the teaching is very sound. Through it we learn the importance of both parents being in agreement concerning what they teach and expect from their children. Otherwise, the son ("ben") cannot be indicted for his disobedience. Added to all the other injunctions HaSHem gives for leading an upright life, these formidable warnings create strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing children from strong, well-balanced, G-d-fearing families. In fact, both of the examples above, "adultery" and "rebellious son," have to do with family dynamics, and show us the great importance HaSHem places upon the family unit. Through Torah, each member of that unit is taught his responsibility, as well as the dire consequences for shirking responsibility. Strong families create a strong nation, and the families of Israel are to be a light unto all the nations of the earth. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:21 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Shalom v'boker tov - I know this may sound a bit petty, but I think we're really off-base when the terms, "hawk," and "dove" are applied to either the situation in Israel OR in studying Torah. These terms are better suited for U.S. politics, like when I was a kid, and there were guys like Richard Nixon and George McGovern. The terms may sound cute, but it implies, for instance, that I am a 'Hawk' - someone who WANTS war, as opposed to wants peace. Since my daughter's and I will (with G-d's help) be living in Israel, believe me, I want peace in Israel as much, if not more so then anyone on this list. However, I will not fall for a fake peace "in our time," and will not violate the sanctity of the Land of Israel by surrendering it (or supporting the surrender) to anyone. Also, "turning the other cheek," is NOT a Jewish concept, and neither is loving your enemies. You will NOT find these concepts in the Torah.... And I think this - Torah, is the real heart of the issue. There are those who want to live a life according to Torah (while partially negating, consciously, or not) the fact that this IS how the Jewish people have lived for several thousand years (Rabbi's and all..), and ignoring how they do it. While at the same time, insisting that Yeshua/Jesus has to have some role in their personal Torah observance. Believe me, I am NOT suggesting that people convert to Judaism....NOT AT ALL (quite the opposite, actually). I just want people to begin to realize what is actually involved in living a "Torah lifestyle," to the best of their abilities. And it just seems to me that people want to study Torah, through their 'Jesus glasses,' which colors the way they read and understand everything. Just some venting at 5:15am.... Hanoch ---------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/be66d1d7/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jul 12 22:50:45 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:50:45 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' Message-ID: <48797B95.1010106@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080713/3f2b75d7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jul 12 23:13:05 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:13:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <48797B95.1010106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5E51F01C9D8349CB97FB76EFA145E08A@bettygivin> Dear friends, I have pretty much been ?out of the loop? regarding these discussions, but the few that I did read today were uplifting, and I thank those of you who wrote them. In the last days, Hosea instructs us to come together and bring words?and that is what we are doing. The words I would like to offer are from Psalm 33 and the beautiful Hebrew song we sing, ?Hine Ma Tov??How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!? I have a vision of us all dancing in Yerushalayim together!!! May Hashem bless each of you with a good week! And now that Shabbat is over, back the grindstone! But at least there is a ?stone? to grind! Much love and many blessings to each of you, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 10:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' May HaShem bless you Pat, Tracey, Cornie and John. What a blessing after Shabbat to read these messages of conciliation. It is always amazing what Shabbat time does to one who truely re-evaluates his/her thoughts. I also apologize if I have caused offense to anyone, especially to Patty. I, in similar vein to Pat reacted to the question regarding the rebellious son or the adulterer. This question was coupled together with the Torah law regarding warfare. I thought that question was a little below the tallit , if you know what I mean. The Torah is eternal. In my exuberance to defend this concept, I actually forgot to reply to Patty's direct question. For this I apologize deeply Patty. I did try to explain the issue of Yeshua and the adulterous woman. However I did not fully respond to your question. After some deep soul searching I will now take the time to properly respond to your question. The Torah , or the written revelation of HaShem to humanity is for all eternity. HaShem was, is and will be. He is not man that He changes His mind. We do not serve a fickle G-d, chas v'shalom( may it never be). A G-d that changes His mind spells doom not only for Yisrael, but for all mankind. The Torah is the tree of life. This was given to mankind as a gift to Adam from our Creator. The spirit of HaShem was breathed into Adam. The purpose of the tree of life was life itself. Adam would be in communion with HaShem as his sole source of life. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was also available in the garden to mankind. This is man's attempt to have dominion over his own life. HaShem is no longer the sole source. The consequences of this action is the opposite of life , ie : death. The Torah was given by HaShem at Har Sinai. The original luchot / tablets were called the Torah Atzilut or the Torah of eminence. ???? ???-??????????? ???-???????????, ????? ??????????, ??????? ????? (?????????) ??????, ??????? ?????????--???-???????? ??????, ???????. 22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices; ?? ???? ???-???-???????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??????, ???????? ????????--?????????? ????? ?????????, ???????? ????????-??? ?????; ????????????, ??????-????????? ?????? ???????? ???????, ???????, ?????? ?????. 23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: 'Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' Jer 7. This was the Torah of life. After the incident of the eigel ha zahav / golden calf, these original luchot were smashed and replaced by the Torah Beriah or the Torah of Remaking. In Judaism there is the concept of tikkun or repairing / rectification. So the Torah Beriah was meant to rectify the sins of the golden calf. The language used is one of blessings and cursings , ie : good and evil. This was the path that was taken similar to the garden. The rules have not changed. When we listen and obey HaShem we have spiritual life. When we disobey HaShem we have spiritual death. However with the Torah of Remaking, HaShem has incorporated Teshuva / Repentance, as was given in the garden. So as we die spiritually through our sins we are enlivened through our repentance. The purpose of Torah is life , and life abundantly. The consequences of disobedience without repentance is death. HaShem would want that ALL should repent. Now back to your question. If the purpose of Torah is life then why would HaShem require the stoning of a rebellious son? From an ignorant western point of view, what you read is what you get. This is a trap that most of us fall into. The key lies with the wonderful tapestry of Rabbinic historical writings from the Mishna or Oral Torah. This is like braille for the blind man. The Rabbis will tell you that if you go back through the Sanhedrin records you will find that there were few records of capital punishment. The intent of the law is prevention . The Torah stipulates that on the evidence of 2 to 3 witnesses will a man / woman be convicted. In the case of a rebellious son the parents would have to denounce him. What loving parent would denounce his son? The parent would do everything in his / her power to love and support the child in order to set the proper example leading to the mending of that child's attitude. This is the foundation of this law. Prevention is always the best cure. The onus is back on the parents knowing the consequences. If they fail they will not need to denounce the son because the court of law will eventually catch up with him on more serious charges in later life such as murder or stealing , etc. This is the core issue of the Torah. Everyone is responsible for their actions and consequences. The dictum in the Torah of HaShem visiting the sins of the parents to the 3rd and 4th generation means exactly this. If the parents fail in setting the right example for the children their irresponsibility will be perpetuated. This is a very serious matter in the Torah. Look at the world today and you will see this very same principle in action. However the provision for repentance is always provided . ? ???????? ???-?????, ????? ?????????? ?????? ??????????; ???????????? ?????? ??????, ????????????? ????? ?????????. 7 So thou, son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore, when thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, warn them from Me. ? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ???? ???????, ????? ??????????, ?????????? ?????? ???????????--???? ?????? ?????????? ??????, ??????? ????????? ?????????. 8 When I say unto the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die, and thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way; that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thy hand. ? ???????? ????-??????????? ?????? ???????????, ??????? ?????????, ?????-????, ???????????--???? ??????????? ??????, ???????? ????????? ??????????. {?} 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it, and he turn not from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but thou hast delivered thy soul. {P} ? ???????? ???-?????, ????? ???-????? ??????????, ???? ?????????? ??????, ????-??????????? ?????????????? ????????; ????? ????????? ?????????, ??????? ???????. 10 Therefore, O thou son of man, say unto the house of Israel: Thus ye speak, saying: Our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we pine away in them; how then can we live? ?? ????? ???????? ???-????? ????? ??????? ??????, ???-???????? ??????? ????????, ???? ???-???????? ?????? ???????????, ???????: ??????? ??????? ????????????? ????????, ???????? ????????--????? ??????????. {?} 11 Say unto them: As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? {P} ?? ???????? ???-?????, ????? ???-??????-??????? ??????? ?????????? ??? ???????????? ??????? ?????????, ?????????? ???????? ???-????????? ?????, ??????? ??????? ??????????; ?????????, ??? ?????? ???????? ?????--??????? ????????. 12 And thou, son of man, say unto the children of thy people: The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not stumble thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall he that is righteous be able to live thereby in the day that he sinneth. ?? ?????????? ?????????? ????? ???????, ??????-????? ???-????????? ???????? ?????--????-????????? ??? ????????????, ??????????? ??????-?????? ???? ??????. 13 When I say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his righteousness, and commit iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, for it shall he die. ?? ??????????? ????????, ???? ???????; ??????, ???????????, ???????? ?????????, ?????????. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked: Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; ?? ????? ??????? ??????, ???????? ?????????, ?????????? ????????? ??????, ?????????? ??????? ?????--????? ???????, ??? ??????. 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back that which he had taken by robbery, walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. ?? ????-????????? ?????? ?????, ??? ???????????? ???: ????????? ????????? ??????, ????? ???????. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be remembered against him; he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. ?? ????????? ?????? ???????, ??? ???????? ??????? ???????; ????????, ????????? ???-????????. 17 Yet the children of thy people say: The way of the Lord is not equal; but as for them, their way is not equal. ?? ????????-??????? ????????????, ???????? ?????--?????, ??????. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. ?? ????????? ?????? ????????????, ???????? ????????? ?????????--????????, ???? ???????. 19 And when the wicked turneth from his wickedness, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. ? ????????????, ??? ???????? ??????? ???????; ????? ??????????? ?????????? ???????, ????? ??????????. {?} 20 Yet ye say: The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.' {P} Eze 33 The Tanach is replete with many such incidents such as King David's adulterous affair with Batsheva. He repented and was forgiven. However the consequences of his actions still had deep ramifications in his life : the still born birth of his child from this affair, the rebellion of his son Avshalom, Ammon and Tamar, the defection of David's counselor Ahithopel , wars etc. The Tanach names him as a man with a heart for HaShem. Through western sunglasses and white walking stick these issues prove that the Torah is not always clear cut. Let us all be willing to learn from Judah because this is their heritage. Finally I would like to leave you with a Rabbinic parable from the Talmud : There was a rich man who had many water skins. He thought " If I put hot water in them the skins will expand and burst . If I put cold water in them they will shrink and crack." What did the rich man do ? He mixed the cold water with the hot water so that the water skins would endure. Similarly the Holy One, blessed be He when he created the world, if He created according to His Attribute of Mercy , then sin would abound , if He created according to His attribute of Justice then the world would not endure. What did The Holy One do ? He mixed His attributes together so that the world would endure. In the Torah when you see YHVH ( The Lord in English ) this ALWAYS refers to His attribute of mercy. When you see in the Torah ELOHIM ( G-d in English ) this ALWAYS refers to His attribute of justice and righteousness. For example ELOHIM ( G-d ) sent Moshe to Pharaoh. ELOHIM created the world. ELOHIM created mankind. YHVH revealed Himself to Moshe and Yisrael. YHVH ELOHIM created Adam. YHVH ELOHIM split the sea of reeds - YHVH to Yisrael , ELOHIM to Pharaoh. Just some food for thought. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080712/c6bf0088/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 13 00:07:30 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:07:30 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' In-Reply-To: <48797B95.1010106@westnet.com.au> References: <48797B95.1010106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1810238300-1215926412-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1049776624-@bxe125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thanks Joe. This sheds some light on what I have always considered a troubling verse; Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:50:45 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Those terms - 'Hawks' & 'Doves...' _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jul 13 16:56:40 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:56:40 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Message-ID: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/ed72a55c/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 18:11:19 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Book of Hebrews Message-ID: <995577.71964.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The Book of Hebrews (Part 2) ? Psalm 110? is? a? presupposition to this book. ???? Exodus 25:9 is a presupposition to this book. Genesis 14:18...is a presupposition to this book. Psalms Chapter 110 ??????????, ????????: ????? ??????, ????????--???? ?????????; ?? ???-??????? ?????????, ????? ???????????. 1 A Psalm of David. {N} The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' ?????????-???????--???????? ??????, ??????????; ?? ?????, ???????? ?????????. 2 The rod of Thy strength the LORD will send out of Zion: 'Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.' ?????????? ???????, ?? ??????? ???????: ??????????-??????, ??????? ????????; ?? ????, ??? ???????????. 3 Thy people offer themselves willingly in the day of thy warfare;{N} in adornments of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, thine is the dew of thy youth. ???????????? ??????, ????? ????????-- ?? ??????-????? ????????; ???-??????????, ?? ????????-?????. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever {N} after the manner of Melchizedek.' ?????????? ???-?????????; ?? ????? ???????-?????? ????????. 5 The Lord at thy right hand doth crush kings in the day of His wrath. ????????? ??????????, ????? ?????????; ?? ????? ?????, ???-????? ??????. 6 He will judge among the nations; He filleth it with dead bodies, He crusheth the head over a wide land. ???????????, ?????????? ?????????; ?? ???-????, ?????? ?????. 7 He will drink of the brook in the way; therefore will he lift up the head. {P} ? ? ? --- On Mon, 6/23/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: [Dialogue] The Book of Hebrews To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 8:53 PM The Book of Hebrews ? I intend to follow up with further thoughts later on, but I hope this will begin to set the stage to address questions that are often raised?concerning?the teaching of this book. I hope this will help?one and all.? ? The Book of Hebrews was written during a probation period which lasted until the murder of Ya'acov/James. Until this, the potential remained for the Re-turn of Messiah Yeshua ben David, and the establishment of the Olam haBa.?The probation period?ended after the writing of several?letters?of "The Netsarim Testimony".?These letters reflect a hopeful expectation of the soon re-turn of Messiah from the?right hand of G-d. The probation and early potential ended. ? The Book of Hebrews itself reflects this in its anticipation of the Olam haBa. Thus you will have a statement such as this: ? For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37 ? I have read quotations from The Talmud itself stating that if Israel is worthy, Messiah will come in the clouds...if Israel is unworthy he will come riding on a donkey. A great article about?the Kingdom Offer?during the first century can be accessed here: www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat5ca.htm ? The Kingdom Offer was proclaimed by Yochanon & Yeshua. The Kingdom Offer was rejected by the Jerusalem Controlled Establishment of the First Century The Kingdom Offer was extended in Acts 3:19-21 until Acts 28, which occurred just prior to the death of James (62 C.E.). The Kingdom Offer was withdrawn until its "appointed time" - which is now!! ? For not unto angels did he subject the world to come (the Olam haBa), whereof we speak.???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Hebrews 2:5 ASV ? Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved... ? These and other?statements?clarify the parameters of what is being taught in the Book of Hebrews. In actuality, the Olam haBa / Age to Come / The Kingdom, has two parts. The Kingdom Offer remained on the table at this time. But, the probation period and the potential for the Kingdom of Judah/Israel to be re-established was approaching its end. The Zealots & Corrupt Priesthood, along with extremist in the Shammai School of Pharisees rejected the early?Kingdom Offer. Beit Hillel Pharisees?regained control of the Sanhedrin after the the Kingdom Offer was withdrawn and they settled in for a long wait. ? There are a variety of ways to speak of the Olam haZeh and the Olam haBah, depending upon how general or how detailed one speaks of it. There are several stages to the Olam haBah?/ Age to Come. To better grasp this, let me offer this graph to give us perspective concerning the future age. ? Present Age---------------and------------------Coming Age [Part 1]-----------------[Part 2] Olam haZeh---------------and------------------Days of Messiah [1]-----Resurrection [2] Olam haZeh---------------------------------------The Kingdom-------------------------------------- Now--------------------------------------------------Resurrection--------------------------------------- Now--------------------------------------------------Resurrection [Part1]------------------Part [2] Now....Messiah, the first to be raised...Resurrection [Part1Firstfruits]----Part [2]? ? Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.? Hebrews 4:1 ? If you and I make it past the approaching wrath of the?'Day of The L-RD' and into "The Land", we will definitely have entered a "rest". However, the ultimate?"rest" which is spoken of is The Resurrection of The Body - an immortal body. This is not the same?kind of resurrection as?that experienced by ones recorded in The?Tanach or The Netsarim Testimony - for they?eventually died again. Resurrection into Immortality is what I'm speaking of - This body will never to die again. This First Adam passed up this immortality by not eating from the 'tree of life'. ? This Resurrection comes about in several stages (according to my understanding of The Testimony of Yeshua and his Talmidim). ? #1) Messiah Yeshua, symbolic of the Firstfruit Barley Offering?offered the first day of the omer. (1Corinthians 15:20) #2) The Firstfruits,?symbolic of the Firstfruits of Shavuot, a literal?144,000, this is the first resurrection, Rev 14:1 ; 20?; 1 Corinthians 15:23-26. This will happen at the beginning of the Days of The Messiah (this age will last 1000 years). During this time, those who are not part of the first resurrection, and survive the coming "Day of the L-RD" will begin to experience the lengthening of days as was the norm prior to The Flood. We will re-populate "The Land" and the earth. #3) The?General Resurrection - This?includes "the rest of the dead" which will occur at the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 14:1 ; 20:1-15 ; Isaiah 24:19-23 ; 1 Corinthians 15 ? And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. ? Would this not be a change in the Torah? We will find that Developmental Change is promoted by the Torah itself. What is better? The seed of the Apple or the Apple itself? ? More Later On, ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? Dear Cornie,You deserve an explanation on these verses. I'll start another topic sothat we will stay on topic. Let's call it "Hebrews Questions". It'llhave to wait until some time in the next few days. But, anybody, didwhat I wrote below make any sense at all??Tracy________________________________Cornie Wrote:I dearly appreciate the noticeable kindred spirit of the love of G-d in these dialogues, I also notice that it is likely that I am not very academic in my writings, That is why I love to borrow from others. But in my 70 questions on page 17 I have quoted out of a book "The Noahide Code, A Guide to the Perplexed Christian" in which book it is high lighted how the New Testament has been corrupted, so much so, and I will quote: "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is *the true* New Testament. (end of quote). I hope this quote will not be misunderstood as an empty statement, or not academic. But concerning Paul, I am starting to wonder if his words could have been falsified enough to bring contention to his true desire to walk and teach in truth of Torah knowledge that he likely had. On the bottom of page 17, concerning question (7.) This was my stance about Paul, and I quote. from what I wrote to the Pastor: If the Torah, or as you call it "the Old Testament" is authoritative and authentic "Word of God", than why does the New Testament (and referring to Paul, if Hebrews is written by Paul) again and again take away from this authoritative work of God, as Paul states it: Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a *better* testament. Hebrew 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a *better *Covenant, which was established upon *better *promises*. v.8. *For if that *first Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. *Hebrew 8:13 In that he saith, a _new_ Covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which *decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away, (KJV) *Question (8.) Now, if what you believe, and are still convinced that the N.Testament is all inspired Word of God, (and when I wrote this I had no confidence in the N. Testament, I likely threw out the baby with the dirty bathwater) and that the supposed God-man Jesus the Christ, is truth, when you believe what Paul is supposed to have written: *"Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away*" than the Torah must be false, with a false Covenant given to Israel in the first place, knowingly, to the all-knowing almighty God, that He was lying to His chosen people Israel, by giving them a dead thing. The two just don't jive at all. (end of quote page 18) I personally do not believe that the New Testament is more spiritual where the Torah is not. I believe there is more mercy and grace in the Torah or Tanach, than what the N. Testament comes out with. To me it does not sound like Paul is very spiritually minded if he thought the old was ready to vanish away, as the King James gives it. If I am wrong I would like to know where I fail to understand Paul, as we read it. And I am willing to see it different if I was brainwashed. In the book that i compiled recently titled "Israel God's Covenant People" in chapter 16 I deal mostly with the 7 Covenants of God, including Jeremiah 31 as well, but that chapter alone has 26 pages. I wish this could be more of a help than confusion. Maybe it is I that needs to be straightened out. If any one has a concern please let me know. Cornie ? ? ? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080713/c23678fd/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 18:18:17 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Book of Hebrews In-Reply-To: <995577.71964.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <417938.10043.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> One of the accidental tabs or something...anyhow...I just opened this up to begin some further work and accidentally sent it... ? No one need?respond...sorry ? Tracy --- On Sun, 7/13/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Book of Hebrews To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 6:11 PM The Book of Hebrews (Part 2) ? Psalm 110? is? a? presupposition to this book. ???? Exodus 25:9 is a presupposition to this book. Genesis 14:18...is a presupposition to this book. Psalms Chapter 110 ??????????, ???????: ????? ??????, ????????--??? ?????????; ?? ???-????? ?????????, ????? ???????????. 1 A Psalm of David. {N} The LORD saith unto my lord: 'Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' ????????-??????--?????? ??????, ???????; ?? ?????, ??????? ?????????. 2 The rod of Thy strength the LORD will send out of Zion: 'Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.' ????????? ???????, ?? ????? ???????: ?????????-?????, ??????? ???????; ?? ????, ??? ???????????. 3 Thy people offer themselves willingly in the day of thy warfare;{N} in adornments of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, thine is the dew of thy youth. ?????????? ??????, ????? ??????-- ?? ????-????? ???????; ???-?????????, ?? ???????-?????. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent: 'Thou art a priest for ever {N} after the manner of Melchizedek.' ?????????? ???-?????????; ?? ????? ?????-??? ????????. 5 The Lord at thy right hand doth crush kings in the day of His wrath. ????????? ??????, ????? ???????; ?? ????? ????, ???-????? ?????. 6 He will judge among the nations; He filleth it with dead bodies, He crusheth the head over a wide land. ??????????, ???????? ??????; ?? ???-???, ?????? ????. 7 He will drink of the brook in the way; therefore will he lift up the head. {P} ? ? ? --- On Mon, 6/23/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: [Dialogue] The Book of Hebrews To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 8:53 PM The Book of Hebrews ? I intend to follow up with further thoughts later on, but I hope this will begin to set the stage to address questions that are often raised?concerning?the teaching of this book. I hope this will help?one and all.? ? The Book of Hebrews was written during a probation period which lasted until the murder of Ya'acov/James. Until this, the potential remained for the Re-turn of Messiah Yeshua ben David, and the establishment of the Olam haBa.?The probation period?ended after the writing of several?letters?of "The Netsarim Testimony".?These letters reflect a hopeful expectation of the soon re-turn of Messiah from the?right hand of G-d. The probation and early potential ended. ? The Book of Hebrews itself reflects this in its anticipation of the Olam haBa. Thus you will have a statement such as this: ? For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37 ? I have read quotations from The Talmud itself stating that if Israel is worthy, Messiah will come in the clouds...if Israel is unworthy he will come riding on a donkey. A great article about?the Kingdom Offer?during the first century can be accessed here: www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat5ca.htm ? The Kingdom Offer was proclaimed by Yochanon & Yeshua. The Kingdom Offer was rejected by the Jerusalem Controlled Establishment of the First Century The Kingdom Offer was extended in Acts 3:19-21 until Acts 28, which occurred just prior to the death of James (62 C.E.). The Kingdom Offer was withdrawn until its "appointed time" - which is now!! ? For not unto angels did he subject the world to come (the Olam haBa), whereof we speak.???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Hebrews 2:5 ASV ? Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved... ? These and other?statements?clarify the parameters of what is being taught in the Book of Hebrews. In actuality, the Olam haBa / Age to Come / The Kingdom, has two parts. The Kingdom Offer remained on the table at this time. But, the probation period and the potential for the Kingdom of Judah/Israel to be re-established was approaching its end. The Zealots & Corrupt Priesthood, along with extremist in the Shammai School of Pharisees rejected the early?Kingdom Offer. Beit Hillel Pharisees?regained control of the Sanhedrin after the the Kingdom Offer was withdrawn and they settled in for a long wait. ? There are a variety of ways to speak of the Olam haZeh and the Olam haBah, depending upon how general or how detailed one speaks of it. There are several stages to the Olam haBah?/ Age to Come. To better grasp this, let me offer this graph to give us perspective concerning the future age. ? Present Age---------------and------------------Coming Age [Part 1]-----------------[Part 2] Olam haZeh---------------and------------------Days of Messiah [1]-----Resurrection [2] Olam haZeh---------------------------------------The Kingdom-------------------------------------- Now--------------------------------------------------Resurrection--------------------------------------- Now--------------------------------------------------Resurrection [Part1]------------------Part [2] Now....Messiah, the first to be raised...Resurrection [Part1Firstfruits]----Part [2]? ? Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.? Hebrews 4:1 ? If you and I make it past the approaching wrath of the?'Day of The L-RD' and into "The Land", we will definitely have entered a "rest". However, the ultimate?"rest" which is spoken of is The Resurrection of The Body - an immortal body. This is not the same?kind of resurrection as?that experienced by ones recorded in The?Tanach or The Netsarim Testimony - for they?eventually died again. Resurrection into Immortality is what I'm speaking of - This body will never to die again. This First Adam passed up this immortality by not eating from the 'tree of life'. ? This Resurrection comes about in several stages (according to my understanding of The Testimony of Yeshua and his Talmidim). ? #1) Messiah Yeshua, symbolic of the Firstfruit Barley Offering?offered the first day of the omer. (1Corinthians 15:20) #2) The Firstfruits,?symbolic of the Firstfruits of Shavuot, a literal?144,000, this is the first resurrection, Rev 14:1 ; 20?; 1 Corinthians 15:23-26. This will happen at the beginning of the Days of The Messiah (this age will last 1000 years). During this time, those who are not part of the first resurrection, and survive the coming "Day of the L-RD" will begin to experience the lengthening of days as was the norm prior to The Flood. We will re-populate "The Land" and the earth. #3) The?General Resurrection - This?includes "the rest of the dead" which will occur at the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 14:1 ; 20:1-15 ; Isaiah 24:19-23 ; 1 Corinthians 15 ? And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. ? Would this not be a change in the Torah? We will find that Developmental Change is promoted by the Torah itself. What is better? The seed of the Apple or the Apple itself? ? More Later On, ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? ? Dear Cornie,You deserve an explanation on these verses. I'll start another topic sothat we will stay on topic. Let's call it "Hebrews Questions". It'llhave to wait until some time in the next few days. But, anybody, didwhat I wrote below make any sense at all??Tracy________________________________Cornie Wrote:I dearly appreciate the noticeable kindred spirit of the love of G-d in these dialogues, I also notice that it is likely that I am not very academic in my writings, That is why I love to borrow from others. But in my 70 questions on page 17 I have quoted out of a book "The Noahide Code, A Guide to the Perplexed Christian" in which book it is high lighted how the New Testament has been corrupted, so much so, and I will quote: "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is *the true* New Testament. (end of quote). I hope this quote will not be misunderstood as an empty statement, or not academic. But concerning Paul, I am starting to wonder if his words could have been falsified enough to bring contention to his true desire to walk and teach in truth of Torah knowledge that he likely had. On the bottom of page 17, concerning question (7.) This was my stance about Paul, and I quote. from what I wrote to the Pastor: If the Torah, or as you call it "the Old Testament" is authoritative and authentic "Word of God", than why does the New Testament (and referring to Paul, if Hebrews is written by Paul) again and again take away from this authoritative work of God, as Paul states it: Hebrew 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a *better* testament. Hebrew 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a *better *Covenant, which was established upon *better *promises*. v.8. *For if that *first Covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. *Hebrew 8:13 In that he saith, a _new_ Covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which *decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away, (KJV) *Question (8.) Now, if what you believe, and are still convinced that the N.Testament is all inspired Word of God, (and when I wrote this I had no confidence in the N. Testament, I likely threw out the baby with the dirty bathwater) and that the supposed God-man Jesus the Christ, is truth, when you believe what Paul is supposed to have written: *"Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away*" than the Torah must be false, with a false Covenant given to Israel in the first place, knowingly, to the all-knowing almighty God, that He was lying to His chosen people Israel, by giving them a dead thing. The two just don't jive at all. (end of quote page 18) I personally do not believe that the New Testament is more spiritual where the Torah is not. I believe there is more mercy and grace in the Torah or Tanach, than what the N. Testament comes out with. To me it does not sound like Paul is very spiritually minded if he thought the old was ready to vanish away, as the King James gives it. If I am wrong I would like to know where I fail to understand Paul, as we read it. And I am willing to see it different if I was brainwashed. In the book that i compiled recently titled "Israel God's Covenant People" in chapter 16 I deal mostly with the 7 Covenants of God, including Jeremiah 31 as well, but that chapter alone has 26 pages. I wish this could be more of a help than confusion. Maybe it is I that needs to be straightened out. If any one has a concern please let me know. Cornie ? ? ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080713/800ac03e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 14 05:21:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 06:21:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 2 hostages.. Message-ID: Column One: A tale of two hostages July 11, 2008 Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Exalting at her liberation by the Colombian military last week, former hostage Ingrid Betancourt exclaimed, "This is a miracle, a miracle! We have an amazing military. I think only the Israelis can possibly pull off something like this." Betancourt's statement made thousands of Israelis wince. Held hostage in the Colombian jungles for six years by the narco-terror group known as the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, Betancourt, a dual Colombian-French citizen who was a Colombian senator and presidential candidate at the time she was abducted, obviously had not heard the news about the "new Israel." Her statements were based on her memories of the "old Israel." She didn't know that the "new Israel" doesn't fight terrorists. The "new Israel" views fighting terrorists as an exercise in futility. Its leaders and military chiefs alike repeat endlessly the mantra that there is no military victory to be had, only a political accommodation. She didn't know that the week before she was rescued, the "new Israel" made a deal with Hizbullah to release five senior Lebanese terrorists, an unknown number of Palestinian terrorists and hundreds of bodies of dead terrorists in exchange for the bodies of IDF reservists Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, who were murdered by Hizbullah two years ago. The "new Israel" is the Israel that maintains one-sided "cease-fires" with Hamas and is poised to make a deal with Hamas by which it will release up to a thousand Palestinian terrorists in exchange for IDF hostage Gilad Schalit. No, Betancourt, was thinking of the "old Israel" - the Israel that electrified the world when it sent its commandos thousands of kilometers to free its hostages in Entebbe 32 years ago. It was that memory of Israeli heroism that doubtless gave hope to Betancourt and her fellow hostages as they languished in FARC captivity in the jungle, malnourished, ill-treated and terrorized. The Entebbe rescue allowed them to fantasize that one day, they too would be rescued and their tormentors would be brought to justice. And last week, their dreams came true. Betancourt had reasons beside her plight as a hostage to associate Colombia's struggle with Israel's. At the time she was abducted, both countries faced similar political and military challenges, and at the time both countries seemed to be embarking on similar paths to surmount them. When Betancourt was kidnapped in April 2002, Colombia had just disavowed a failed strategy of appeasing FARC. To bring FARC to the negotiating table, then-president Andres Pastrana agreed to transfer control over a swathe of Colombian territory the size of Switzerland to FARC. Rather than reciprocate this peace-offering with one of its own, FARC used the safe haven to increase its recruitment of terrorists and intensify its kidnapping campaign and drug trafficking operations. For nearly four years, Pastrana refused to disavow the phony "peace process" in spite of repeated FARC attacks. It was only in February 2002, after FARC hijacked an airliner and kidnapped its fifth lawmaker in a year, that Pastrana finally repudiated his appeasement drive. Similarly, in 2002, Israel was in the grips of an unprecedented Palestinian terror campaign with suicide bombings going off almost daily. Then-prime minister Ariel Sharon had been elected the previous year to replace the discredited Ehud Barak as premier after the latter's appeasement strategy at Camp David had failed and Israel's eight-year-old Oslo appeasement strategy had fallen apart. When Betancourt was taken prisoner, Sharon had just launched Operation Defensive Shield with the express purpose of defeating the Palestinian terror networks in Judea and Samaria. WHAT BETANCOURT didn't know was that since her abduction, Israel and Colombia have gone their separate ways. Under President Alvero Uribe, who was elected after her capture, Colombia has moved steadily toward full victory over FARC. On the other hand, Israel has abandoned victory as a strategic concept for contending with its enemies. Israel's abdication of its struggle against its terrorist enemies was as swift and unmistakable as it was inexplicable. Rather than following up Israel's military defeat of the Palestinian terror machine in Judea and Samaria in 2002 with a similar operation in Gaza or with a political offensive against the PLO that Defensive Shield exposed as the central engine behind the Palestinian terror war, Sharon opted to withdraw from the fight and return to the discredited policy of appeasement that Israeli voters had twice rejected. First Sharon accepted the so-called road map to peace in 2003. Predicated on the false assumption that the Palestinians are interested in peace with Israel and can be appeased into accepting statehood and Israel's right to exist, the road map precludes any Israeli option for victory. When the Palestinians refused to end their support for Israel's destruction in spite of the road map, Sharon abandoned appeasement-for-peace and opted instead for surrender-for-quiet. His unilateral surrender of Gaza demoralized Israeli society, weakened Israel's democratic institutions and propelled Hamas and Iran to power in Gaza. Rather than recognize that the move had been a strategic catastrophe that called into question Israel's ability to act as an ally in the US-led war on terror, Sharon launched Kadima as a new political party dedicated entirely to appeasement and capitulation. After Ehud Olmert replaced Sharon as premier, he brought Kadima to victory in the March 2006 election by pledging to expand Sharon's "capitulation for quiet" strategy to Judea and Samaria. When Israel's neighbors responded to that agenda with war from Lebanon and Gaza, Olmert and his colleagues were forced to return to their previous appeasement-for-peace agenda. But their refusal to countenance the option of victory over Israel's implacable foes remains the order of the day. In contrast, the Uribe government in Colombia has never veered from its single-minded goal of defeating FARC both militarily and politically. With US assistance, Uribe has rebuilt Colombia's military into a highly competent counterinsurgency force. His counterinsurgency has brought both defeat and demoralization to FARC's doorstep. FARC's guerrilla force, which numbered 18,000 just a few years ago, has been reduced by an estimated 50 percent. Busy with t heir own survival, FARC's remaining forces have been unable to conduct any sustained operations against the Uribe government or rank and file Colombians in recent years. Restored security has brought economic growth and prosperity. And both have stabilized the Uribe government. Like the Palestinians, FARC enjoys the support of the international Left and leftist governments. In FARC's case, Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez has been the terror group's primary military, financial and political backer. Ecuador, led by Rafael Correa's Chavez-allied leftist government, has also become a major sponsor of FARC. In March, Uribe risked regional war to defeat FARC by raiding a FARC base on the Ecuadorian side of the border. The raid was immensely successful. FARC's deputy commander Raul Reyes was killed and his computers - carrying massive intelligence information - were seized. As Ecuador cut off diplomatic relations and Chavez deployed troops to his border with Colombia, Uribe stalwartly defended the raid. He defended the operation even as the French government attacked him, claiming that Reyes had been their negotiating partner in their quest to secure Betancourt's release. Israel's governments have systematically prevented the publication of information regarding Fatah's leadership role in the terror war, and its ties to Iran and Syria. They have also refused to take any action against Israeli organizations and politicians bankrolled illegally by foreign governments. In contrast, Uribe moved quickly to use the information exposed by Reyes's computers to discredit Chavez, FARC and their Colombian and foreign sympathizers. Reyes's files showed that neither FARC nor Chavez nor pro-Chavez Colombian Senator Piedad Cordoba were negotiating Betancourt's release in good faith. Understanding that she was their most powerful bargaining chip against the Uribe government, in their internal discussions, all three attested to their opposition to her release. Uribe's release of the information decreased French pressure for a deal. Chavez was further discredited and Bogota's prosecutor opened a criminal probe against Cordoba on treason-related charges. According to media reports, the Ecuador raid also provided the Colombian military with actionable intelligence it needed to move forward with its plans for last week's rescue mission. That is, each successful raid paved the way for the next achievement. THE ISRAELI media's response to the Colombia rescue mission has been to inflate the "Israeli role" in the mission. Numerous reports have been published in the local press about the fact that the Colombians hired retired IDF generals Yisrael Ziv and Yossi Kupperwasser to help them build up their counterterror capabilities. Far from obscuring the yawning gap between Colombia and Israel, these reports bring Israel's abandonment of the fight into sharp relief. They show clearly that Israel's decision to capitulate has nothing to do with an inability to fight to victory. It is a failure of will rather than a failure of capacity that has brought Israel to its current cowed and humiliated condition where its media argues over how many terrorists should be exchanged for Schalit and ignores completely the very notion that he can be rescued. And Israel could attempt to rescue him. While success is never assured, it is a fact that just as Colombia was able to find and rescue Betancourt and her fellow hostages in the jungle, so Israel could, if it dared, conduct a competent operation aimed at rescuing Schalit in Gaza. Like Colombia it could acquire the intelligence necessary to plan and carry out such a raid. Like Colombia, its forces are competent to succeed in such an endeavor. Until last week's raid, one of the main sources of pressure on the Uribe government was Betancourt's family. Her mother and children met frequently with Chavez and railed against Uribe in their eagerness to see her released. Speaking of her experience and of her rescue in Paris this week, Betancourt, who over the years tried to escape five times, was clear that she preferred freedom to slavery, even if it came only in death. As French philosopher Andre Glucksmann wrote in City Journal, it was freedom, not life, that she held most sacred. And while she understood her family's actions, she clearly did not embrace their pacifism as she praised Uribe for rescuing her despite the risk that the mission would fail and she and her fellow hostages would be killed. It is hard to imagine that as a soldier, Schalit feels any differently. Why should we assume that he prefers to live as a slave rather than to die in a quest for freedom? It is a travesty that in their inexplicable abandonment of honorable struggle against murderous foes in favor of dangerous appeasement, Olmert and his colleagues have denied Schalit the respect due a warrior and have denied the IDF the right to fight for Israel's freedom. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 _mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org _ (mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org) _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) To make a contribution through Paypal, go to: _http://www.womeningreen.org _ (http://www.womeningreen.org/) and click on the Paypal button **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/bf04c427/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jul 14 06:27:49 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 07:27:49 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shull Message-ID: Hey Ross: I went to bed with your message on my mind and got up this morning at 4:00 AM with it still on my mind. All I can say is how can they know without a teacher and how can they have a teacher unless sent from G-D. You my friend have been sent from G-D. I have never heard the NT texts put together in harmony with the Tanakh as I heard you last night. The fullness of the nations brought in like a net full of fish and the majority of them are the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You put it all together and tied it up with a nice bow. What can I say but thank you, thank you. Clyde . **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/e11e1326/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 14 10:48:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:48:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel In-Reply-To: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> References: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAB3E02443EFE8-1130-2A5D@MBLK-M05.sysops.aol.com> Hey Joe, ? ??? Thanks for forwarding this - it was really very interesting; well worth the hour spent.? And you're right - you can never be reminded too much.? Keep forwarding all this interesting stuff - it's very appreciated. ??? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ???????????? Hanoch? -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 5:56 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Shalom Chaverim, If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link pertaining to the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful teacher. I hope it will help us to see this very complex issue from a different perspective. For those who are Jewish , it is still a very welcomed reminder . Shalom v' Ahavah. JOE. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/3b01ee6a/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 18:58:59 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shull In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <766906.83276.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I listened to Sunday Shul on Monday night and in response to what I heard, I can only say, ? "Amein v Amein!!? There is another true shepherd in Israel!!" Shalom u'Berachot upon such a one and let all take heed to these words!! ? And may we all be sent with him to Eretz Israel to be a part of his mission!! ? Tracy ? --- On Mon, 7/14/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shull To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, July 14, 2008, 6:27 AM Hey Ross: ? I went to bed with your message on my mind and got up this morning at 4:00 AM with it still on my mind. All I can say is how can they know without a teacher and how can they have a teacher unless sent from G-D. You my friend have been sent from G-D. I have never heard the NT texts put together in harmony with the Tanakh as I heard you last night. The fullness of the nations brought in like a net full of fish and the majority of them are the lost sheep of the house of Israel. You put it all together and tied it up with a nice bow. What can I say but thank you, thank you. ? Clyde???. Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/1ac5f81b/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Mon Jul 14 19:17:46 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Message-ID: <952796.6287.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Joe: Thnak you or forwarding this. I really did appreciate it. Kind regards, Helen, Avigail, Sarah ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:56:40 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Shalom Chaverim, If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link pertaining to the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful teacher. I hope it will help us to see this very complex issue from a different perspective. For those who are Jewish , it is still a very welcomed reminder . Shalom v' Ahavah. JOE. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/26da78d3/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Mon Jul 14 22:44:18 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 22:44:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel References: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <007c01c8e62d$0fa07570$6400a8c0@davesbook> HEY JOE, Sherry and I watched it.......I have a better view now, thanks for the link. peace, dave To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Shalom Chaverim, If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link pertaining to the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful teacher. I hope it will help us to see this very complex issue from a different perspective. For those who are Jewish , it is still a very welcomed reminder . Shalom v' Ahavah. JOE. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080714/bea00b7c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 15 05:37:32 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:37:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. Message-ID: <487C7DEC.7000500@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/73b9ffdc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Thevaticansagenda.doc Type: application/msword Size: 70144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/73b9ffdc/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: N9876093.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 10138 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/73b9ffdc/attachment.obj From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jul 15 08:47:05 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:47:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. In-Reply-To: <487C7DEC.7000500@westnet.com.au> References: <487C7DEC.7000500@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Dear Joe, Thanks so very much for sending this. I agree with you on this and I, of all people, usually stay clear of "world domination" conspiracy theories of all types. I urge everyone to read these materials carefully. BTW, I think many of us remember Sept, 1993 quite well and also that these events occurred the week of Rosh HaShannah. James On Jul 15, 2008, at 6:37 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > With the recent events that transpired in Paris on Bastille Day , I > am posting some interesting material concerning the division of > Yerushalayim that most of you may not be aware of. The information > contained herein requires our deepest thoughts and prayers. > > Many of you may not be aware that the nations of the world came > against Yerushalayim on the 9th December 1997. This is not another > conspiracy theory. The prophecies contained in the book of Zechariah > are unfolding before our very eyes without media coverage. On the > date mentioned above at the UN, the battle for Yerushalayim began on > paper. 148 nations voted for, 1 nation against (Yisrael), with 9 > abstentions. I researched this and I have attached the relevant UN > Resolution. > I have also attached a report by Joel Bainerman . Please take the > time to read his explosive findings. With President Sarkozy of > France as the architect of the " Mediterranean Union", this report > starts to underline the main best kept secrets of it's contents.We > now have Catholic, Jewish, Greek Orthodox and Islamic nations > signing this treaty. Suddenly Al Assad of Syria is back on the > scene, the Golan is back on the negotiating table, Olmert and Abbas > are close to peace . PEACE, PEACE is in the air. But behind the > scenes the sweet heart deals are flying thick and thin. This will > inevitably lead to war. When and how , only HaShem knows. > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > < > Thevaticansagenda > .doc>_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/84f7ca04/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 15 09:35:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:35:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. In-Reply-To: References: <487C7DEC.7000500@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CAB49F1BBC4958-1D24-1790@FWM-M15.sysops.aol.com> Thevaticansagenda.doc> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 9:47 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. Dear Joe, Thanks so very much for sending this. I agree with you on this and I, of all people, usually stay clear of "world domination" conspiracy theories of all types. I urge everyone to read these materials carefully. BTW, I think many of us remember Sept, 1993 quite well and also that these events occurred the week of Rosh HaShannah. James On Jul 15, 2008, at 6:37 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Shalom Chaverim, With the recent events that transpired in Paris on Bastille Day , I am posting some interesting material concerning the division of Yerushalayim that most of you may not be aware of. The information contained herein requires our deepest thoughts and prayers. Many of you may not be aware that the nations of the world came against Yerushalayim on the 9th December 1997. This is not another conspiracy theory. The prophecies contained in the book of Zechariah are unfolding before our very eyes without media coverage. On the date mentioned above at the UN, the battle for Yerushalayim began on paper. 148 nations voted for, 1 nation against (Yisrael), with 9 abstentions. I researched this and I have attached the relevant UN Resolution. I have also attached a report by Joel Bainerman . Please take the time to read his explosive findings. With President Sarkozy of France as the architect of the " Mediterranean Union", this report starts to underline the main best kept secrets of it's contents.We now have Catholic, Jewish, Greek Orthodox and Islamic nations signing this treaty. Suddenly Al Assad of Syria is back on the scene, the Golan is back on the negotiating table, Olmert and Abbas are close to peace . PEACE, PEACE is in the air. But behind the scenes the sweet heart deals are flying thick and thin. This will inevitably lead to war. When and how , only HaShem knows. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/4b7fd311/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Jul 15 12:16:16 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:16:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel In-Reply-To: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> References: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2F15F2BC-B569-4098-BB7E-0C68A765A767@earthlink.net> Dear Joe, I watched this one and went to the TorahOhr site. You might have mentioned this before but the video there on Gog & Magog I thought was really interesting and well done. http://www.torahohr.net/showVideo.php?vid=32 James On Jul 13, 2008, at 5:56 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link > pertaining to the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful > teacher. I hope it will help us to see this very complex issue from > a different perspective. For those who are Jewish , it is still a > very welcomed reminder . > > Shalom v' Ahavah. > JOE. > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/4b413c27/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 15 13:35:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Tehillim 121 Message-ID: <8CAB4C0A2FEA962-5A0-743@FWM-M15.sysops.aol.com> "A song of ascents.? I raise my eyes upon the mountains; whence will come my help?? My help is from HaShem, Maker of heaven and earth.? He will not allow your foot to falter; your Guardian will not slumber.? Behold, He neither slumbers not sleeps - the Guardian of Israel.? HaShem is your Guardian;? HaShem is your Shade at your right hand.? By day the sun will not harm you, nor the moon by night.? HaShem will protect you from every evil;? He will guard your soul.? HaShem sill guard your departure and your arrival, from this time and forever." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/298f23a3/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 15 15:20:03 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:20:03 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Psalm 121 - =?utf-8?b?16nXmdeoINec157Xotec15XXqiDXkNep?= =?utf-8?b?15Ag16LXmdeg15k=?= Message-ID: <487D0673.2020302@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/dacdcdaa/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 15 15:27:38 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:27:38 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Nachamu, Nachamu Ami - isaiah 40:1-2 Message-ID: <487D083A.7020805@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/eda8d3df/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 15 15:53:58 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:53:58 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED.] Message-ID: <487D0E66.4090205@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/54409877/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/54409877/attachment-0001.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:47:05 -0400 Size: 8539 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/54409877/attachment.eml From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 16:02:17 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:02:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Tehillim 121 In-Reply-To: <8CAB4C0A2FEA962-5A0-743@FWM-M15.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAB4C0A2FEA962-5A0-743@FWM-M15.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hey Hanoch, A friend just gave us these verses last night: * Isa 52:7* How pleasant upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who proclaims peace, who brings good news, who proclaims deliverance, who says to Tsiyon, "Your Elohim reigns!" Isa 52:8 The voice of your watchmen! They shall lift up their voices, together they shout for joy, because eye to eye they see the return of ????to Tsiyon. * Zec 14:4* And in that day His feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives, which faces Yerushalayim on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, a very great valley, and half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Chris and Amber On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:35 PM, wrote: > "A song of ascents. I raise my eyes upon the mountains; whence will come > my help? My help is from HaShem, Maker of heaven and earth. He will not > allow your foot to falter; your Guardian will not slumber. Behold, He > neither slumbers not sleeps - the Guardian of Israel. HaShem is your > Guardian; HaShem is your Shade at your right hand. By day the sun will not > harm you, nor the moon by night. HaShem will protect you from every evil; > He will guard your soul. HaShem sill guard your departure and your arrival, > from this time and forever." > ------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/c6f1ae65/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 15 16:06:09 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:06:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "If I forget thee.." Message-ID: <8CAB4D5BD292837-1774-1651@WEBMAIL-MB19.sysops.aol.com> If I forget thee... by David Wilder The Jewish Community of Hebron July 15, 2008 Tomorrow's planned prisoner exchange is very bittersweet. ?Almost everyone has an opinion and all sides have some element of legitimacy. On one hand, the price is so very high; on the other hand, we have a responsibility to bring our soldiers home, dead or alive. A soldier, entering battle, must know that anything and everything will be done to bring him home, be it to his family, or to?'kever Yisrael' ? to a Jewish grave. Yet, perhaps the swap will serve as motivation to capture more soldiers, and exchange them for other terrorist killers. But, who can forget the unbelievable 'mesirut nefesh' ? total dedication, of Rabbi Shlomo Goren, then Chief Rabbi of the IDF, to wade through enemy mine fields to recover bodies of Israeli soldiers killed in action. It's something of a catch 22 ? whatever you do is right, and whatever you do is wrong.?I know that I've asked myself countless times, 'what would I do if, (G-d forbid), it was one of my sons.' In truth, I don't know. Of course, with the release of two Israeli soldiers, either dead or alive, a huge dark cloud shadows their return:?where is Ron Arad, whose fate is still unknown? Is he dead or alive? Is he in Lebanon or Iran? According to Israeli intelligence sources, having studied the newly-released photos of Arad, taken about 20 years ago, the pictures were taken not in Lebanon, rather in Iran. Perhaps Ron Arad is sti ll alive, wasting away in an Iranian dungeon? However, with enigma surrounding Ron Arad and the as of yet unknown condition of Regev and Goldwasser, at least people know their names, show some concern for them and their families. Unfortunately, it's not that way with all Israeli MIAs, POWS.?There are those, who, for one reason or another, have been forgotten, despite that fact that they wore the same uniform as the others, fought for the same country as the others, and whose fate is just as unknown as the others. Ron Arad was captured in October, 1986. Four years earlier, in June, 1882, during the battle of Sultan Ya'akub, Israel?lost three of its finest.?During the battle, commanded by Ehud Barak, three tank warriors, ?Tzvi Feldman,?born in 1956, Yehuda Katz, born in 1959, and Zacharia Baumel, born in 1960, disappeared.?They may have been killed during the brutal fighting. However, there were accounts of people who saw them displayed during a parade in Syria. Their families have gathered accounts over the years, which, at the very least, raise a reasonable doubt as to their fate. Perhaps they are long gone. But perhaps not.?And, if we use the Regev-Goldwasser?measuring stick, what difference does it make? Why have the IDF and the Israeli government totally forgotten about these three men? Why aren't they household names, as is Ron Arad? Why didn't Israel demand a full report from Hizballah concerning the fate and location of these three men just as they did concerning Ron Arad? ?Why doesn't the Israeli media exert pressure on the government and IDF concerning then, as they did concerning Regev, Goldwasser, Arad and Gilad Shalit? Why does Gilad Shalit's name continue to make headlines, while most Israelis, 22 years later, have no idea who Katz, Feldman and Baumel are? I have an answer, but don't really like it. As a matter of fact, I despise what I think. It really stinks. It's even worse than that. But I can't think of any other viable reason. These three men came from the wrong side of Israeli society. They all had Kippas on their heads. They belonged to religious tank units. Their families were not left-wing supporters of 'peace,' Labor, and Arabs.?The men weren't media lovelies. Rather, they were young idealistic patriots, who fought for their country, their people and their belief. Their belief hasn't betrayed them, but their country and their people have. ? But that's not all. It's clear that serious negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit will continue between Israel and Hamas. Clearly, Israel should demand information and release of the three above-discussed men. But in my opinion, that's not enough. Hamas terrorists are not stupid. If, as is expected, Israel receives two bodies for killer Kuntar, Hamas is going to demand an even higher price for a 'live' Israeli. That price will almost undoubtedly include Marwan Barghuti, a convicted murderer and leader of the '2nd intidada' which claimed thousands of Israeli lives, dead, maimed and wounded. The present=2 0Israeli government will almost assuredly OK the deal. However, Israel must demand more than the release of POW Gilad Shalit. After all, Barghuti will only be one of the hundreds of terrorists freed by Israel. Israel must look towards its best friend and ally, put its foot down, and tell the United States: look at what we are being forced into in order to release one Israeli soldier. What is the price of one man? Is there a price? Yet, the price is too high. We must bring home more than one POW. When we release Barghuti and Hamas releases Shalit, you must free Jonathan Pollard. ?If we can do it, so can you. At every Jewish wedding, the happiest day in a person's life, we repeat the words, 'If I forget thee Jerusalem?.'? I add : If?we forget thee, Tzvi? If?we forget thee Yehuda? If?we forget thee Zacharia? If?we forget thee Jonathan? If?we forget all of you, who are we, what are we, why are we? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/53b10537/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jul 15 16:51:10 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:51:10 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel] Message-ID: <487D1BCE.4080708@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/f5428339/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:16:16 -0400 Size: 6311 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/f5428339/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 15 20:16:46 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:16:46 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, is it just ME? Message-ID: Shalom, I sent two post to the Dialogue list today, but they did not seem to go through. Is this just happening to me?!?! Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080715/0dba4c4c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Jul 16 03:07:50 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:07:50 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: Fwd: Okay, is it just ME?] Message-ID: <487DAC56.6050204@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/64938e41/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Okay, is it just ME? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:20:40 EDT Size: 6285 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/64938e41/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 16 05:47:03 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:47:03 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Special Lekarev Report Message-ID: The Lekarev Report SPECIAL EDITION THE RETURN OF OUR SOLDIERS 13 Tammuz 5768 July 16, 2008 Costly in the sight of Hashem is the death of His righteous ones. Psalm 116:15 Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev May their memories be for a blessing to all Israel. ALL ISRAEL MOURNS AND WEEPS Til the very last moment, we hoped and we prayed that by some miracle, Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev would return to us alive. At 9:40 this morning, those hopes were dashed when Lebanese television flashed this picture of two coffins being removed from Hizbollah vehicles to be transferred to the Red Cross trucks standing by to deliver the bodies of our soldiers into Israeli hands. I began at 8:30 this morning monitoring the unfolding events and my report follows. 8:30 AM Israel time Like most Israelis this morning, I am glued to the television, laptop in front of me, to give you a full and descriptive report on this historic day, the return of our soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. The Israeli Defense Forces have been put on FULL ALERT - the Army, Air Force and the Navy. 8:42 AM At this time, we have seen Samir Kuntar, the arch terrorist at the center of this deal, along with 4 other terrorists, being processed out of their prisons and prepared for the drive to the Rosh Hanikra crossing in northern Israel where the exchange will take place. We have just been shown the Red Cross trucks which are transporting the bodies of 199 Arab terrorists who had been buried in Israel and are now being transferred to Lebanon, making the price of getting our sons back - 5 living terrorists and 199 bodies. The two IDF generals who will be the first ones to be told whether or not, in fact, Regev and Goldwasswer are dead or alive, have arrived at the scene. The Goldwasser and Regev families are waiting in their homes for the final word on the condition of their loved ones. Once they are on the Israeli side, they will be taken to a special tent that has been erected where medical personnel are waiting to positively identify the bodies. After that is completed, their families will then be brought to the tent to be alone with their loved ones for a time. If the bodies are in such condition that they cannot be positively identified at the tent, helicopters are standing by to transfer them to the Forensic laboratory at Abu Kabir. 9:00 AM The convoy bringing the two IDF soldiers has arrived on the Lebanese side. We have also been shown by Hizbollah television several busses covered with flowers that are to transport the 199 bodies. At the moment, the father of an IDF soldier who taken prisoner in the Battle of Sultan in the first Lebanese war, is speaking with reporters. His emotion is obvious as he recounts how for two years, exactly like the Regev and Goldwasser families, he also did not know whether his son was alive or dead. He said he is shaking inside as he waits to learn the fate of Goldwasser and Regev, hoping against hope that, unlike his son whose body was returned in a previous exchange, they will return alive. 9:07 AM We can now see the vehicles with blacked out windows on the Lebanese side of the border, and have just been told that the German official from the Red Cross on the Lebanese side has just received the information from Hizbollah as to the condition of the two soldiers. He is to relay the information to the Israeli Generals who will inform the families. Once the families have been told, it will be relayed to the Israeli public. We are holding our breath for the announcement. 9:40 AM HIZBOLLAH TELEVISION HAS JUST SHOWN TWO COFFINS BEING REMOVED FROM THEIR VEHICLES AND PLACED ON THE GROUND. ALTHOUGH WE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT OUR SOLDIERS WERE DEAD, THIS MOMENT - ACTUALLY SEEING THE TWO COFFINS AFTER THESE TWO YEARS OF WAITING, PRAYING, HOPING - IS DEEPLY PAINFUL FOR EVERY ISRAELI. To the very last second, Hizbollah REFUSED to give any information, deliberately prolonging the agony of the families and all Israel to know, once and for all, the status of our soldiers. The mental cruelty which Nasrallah has imposed on the families of the soldiers is the topic of many commentators at the moment. The television commentator's voice is breaking as he says that every Israeli is weeping at this moment. On our TV screens now are photos of Eldad Regev, followed by photos of Ehud Goldwasser at different ages. The sadness of everyone is overwhelming - commentators, reporters, neighbors of the Regev and Goldwasser familes who were waiting outside their homes. Eldad Regev would have been 28 next month and was single. He was scheduled to begin his university studies two years ago as soon as the war was over. Ehud Goldwasser, who would be 35 next Tuesday, is survived by his wife, Karnit, and two young children. Both family homes have been filled with reporters since the early hours who now report that moments ago, when the first pictures of the two coffins burst on the television screens, cries of horror filled both homes. Even the reporters, accustomed to many tragic scenes, began to weep. Israelis by the dozens are gathering outside both homes, lighting memorial candles in honor of the slain soldiers and weeping as if Ehud and Eldad were the own sons. For Israelis, this scene hits at the heart of every home for every parent faces the day that his sons and daughters enter the IDF. One of the most important elements of today's events is the re-affirmation to Israeli parents as well as to Israeli young people that Israel has not abandoned its long held principle to do whatever it takes to bring our captive soldiers home. 11: 00 AM -BODIES POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED BY RED CROSS it has just been announced that the Red Cross has positively identified the remains as those of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. The bodies are now to be transferred into Israeli hands where Israeli personnel will also conduct their own identification. It has been a very emotional morning. The IDF remains on full alert as concerns are very high that Hizbollah will attack Israel after receiving back its terrorists. Lebanese television continues to show scenes in Lebanon which make Israeli blood boil - a huge banner at the Beirut Airport says "Freedom Guaranteed by Nasrallah". Another one says "Lebanon Rejoices while Israel Mourns". The most despicable scene however, has flashed across the screen twice. Crowds that have gathered at the Beirut airport awaiting the "triumphal" arrival of the murderer, Kuntar and the other five, are seen giving the straight arm "Nazi" salute as they celebrate Hizbollah's "victory" over Israel. 11:25 am - THE REMAINS OF OUR SOLDIERS HAVE JUST CROSSED INTO ISRAEL. THEY ARE FINALLY HOME. MAY THEIR MEMORIES BE FOR A BLESSING AND MAY THEIR FAMILIES BE COMFORTED WITH ALL THE MOURNERS IN ZION AND IN JERUSALEM. May Hashem bring Shalom to the Goldwasswer and Regev families and heal their broken hearts, and the hearts of all Israel, Leah **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/72cf16ab/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 16 05:56:27 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 06:56:27 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] About the so-called "Prisoner Exchange" Message-ID: Shalom, There are those who think that I'm against this, so-called prisoner exchange - we give live terrorists, and get back the bodies of our martyred soldiers. Even though Jewish Law clearly forbids giving in to a ransom like this, I actually have another idea - a variation on the theme. Even though Israel has known that our boys are dead, terrorist scum like Kuntar, the child-killer SHOULD be sent to Lebanon; however, in pieces.....every one of the terrorists, (who should have been killed when convicted, anyway....), should have been shipped to the border in pieces - hacked up, and covered in pig skins... When the hell are we EVER going to learn?? Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/d341eaf9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 16 06:05:30 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:05:30 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] From today's Arutz-7 Message-ID: Bar Ilan Lebanon Expert: This Is Just the Beginning (IsraelNN.com) Bar Ilan University professor and Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Affairs Lebanon expert Moti Kedar described dire prospects for Israel, in an Army Radio interview, today.?The current exchange is ?suicidal,? according to the Arab affairs expert. Kedar is also a former intelligence officer. He said, ?This is a great victory for Hizbullah... we have crowned Nasrallah the only man in Lebanon who can achieve anything.? Kedar had harsh words for those who think the current exchange would bring silence. He noted that Hizbullah alleges that Israel still ?occupies? the seven Shi'ite villages and Har Dov, and thereby claims justification for its continued armed attacks on Israel. IDF: Bodies? Condition Makes Identification Difficult (IsraelNN.com) IDF Chief Rabbinate sources have announced that the verification of the fallen soldiers? identity may take longer than expected, due to the mangled condition of the bodies. IDF soldiers working with the fallen soldier?s bodies describe their condition as ?very bad? and report that the bodies were apparently kept refrigerated only close to the time of the exchange. An Israel Air Force helicopter is on the scene at Rosh HaNikra and being readied to fly out D.N.A. samples from the fallen soldiers to forensic units in central Israel, in order to assist in confirming the fallen soldier?s identities. The IDF Spokesperson Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu noted that the IDF has "a world-renowned name" in identifying victims of terror and combat casualties; however the soldiers condition is so severe that "it may take long hours" until final notice can be given to the families. **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/e2671e09/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 16 06:14:03 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 07:14:03 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel Message-ID: Hey Joe & James, I've seen that video, and I agree, it's very well done, and certainly thought provoking. I just wish it had a wider distribution. B'Ahava, Hanoch **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/9126cd83/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 16 06:48:37 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 04:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <760562.6750.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Hanoch, Joe, & James, ? I watched the videos you guys provided links for; I also and found them moving. ? Tracy --- On Wed, 7/16/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:14 AM Hey Joe & James, ? ????I've seen that video, and I agree, it's very well done, and certainly thought provoking.? I just wish it had a wider distribution.? ? ????B'Ahava, ????????????Hanoch Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/380c21c0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Jul 16 07:43:01 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:43:01 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Mt Zion: David's Tomb and the Upper Room In-Reply-To: <487D0E66.4090205@westnet.com.au> References: <487D0E66.4090205@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks Joe, yes, I am quite familiar with this issue and the site. Those of us digging at Mt Zion pass it several times a day in going and coming. Surely it is one of the strangest ironies in history that the site of the building that once served as HQ for the Nazarene movement, possibly even the house of James, has downstairs the Zikron for David's Tomb and upstairs the famous Upper Room where Jesus ate the Last Supper. I do indeed believe the site is authentic, though the present structures are mostly Crusader, see Pixner's BAR article: http://www.centuryone.org/apostles.html I can tell you that EVERY Christian tourist who visits Israel visits this site. That is true of no other site other than the Garden of Gethsemane, not even the Church of the HS, since non-Catholics often prefer the alternative crucifixion spot--Gordon's Calvary. But ALL Christian pilgrims walk in this Upper Room. That means Millions a year. The jam of buses to get in all day backs up the road along our dig site for hours each day. That veneration will not go away or change. At the same time, with the tradition of David's tomb on Mt Zion (which Gibson and I accept, unlike most all scholars who claim the site is Crusader and the actual tomb was down in the City of David/ Ophel area), many Jewish tourists and visitors to Jerusalem also come to the same site--but on the first floor, below the Upper Room. There is no other place like it in all Israel, in all the world. I find it highly symbolic on many levels, but it is also a political/religious reality. How to resolve it I don't know but I don't think the Vatican will be allowed to in any way restrict either the Yeshiva (I have met and talked to all the rabbis up there) or the Jewish veneration of the Tomb, and I don't think Jews/Israelis will move in any way to keep Christians from coming to the Upper Room. So for the time being this amazing "crossroad" is fully populated in this most ironic way. James On Jul 15, 2008, at 4:53 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom James, > > I have gone back through my archives and I am posting an article by > ARUTZ 7,dated 11th December 2006, which you might find interesting > as it deals with Old City of David and his tomb site. You might be > able to shed more light on this from your own personal experience at > the dig site. Irrespective the wheels are definitely in motion. > > . Israel Agrees to Reopen Mt. Zion Talks with Vatican > > By Hillel Fendel > > PM Olmert will meet in the Vatican this week with Pope Benedict - > two weeks after Israeli diplomats confirmed the reopening of talks > over the status of church property on Mt. Zion and elsewhere. > "In a move that surprised observers," CatholicNews.com reports, > "Israel has agreed to re-launch negotiations with the Holy See over > church status in the Holy Land that have been stalled since the > Olmert government came to power." > > A year ago, Arutz-7 reported that a Foreign Ministry official > admitted that a blueprint of an agreement with the Vatican giving it > control of parts of Mt. Zion in Jerusalem - also known as King > David's burial site - had been received. The proposed contract read > as follows: > "The State of Israel hands over to the Holy See the use of the > Cenacle [the room of the event known as the Last Supper, above King > David's tomb - ed.], of the access path to it, and of the spaces > adjacent to it... It is the Holy See's intention to inform the > Bishops - and through them the world's Priests - that the Catholic > Church has been given the use of the Cenacle, inviting them to visit > the Holy Place together with their faithful... The Holy See hands > over this use of the Cenacle to the Custody of the Holy Land [which > acts on behalf of the Holy See]... [which] will keep the Cenacle > open from 6 AM to 8 AM for the celebration of the Holy Mass... > Official liturgical celebrations of non-Catholic Churches can take > place only upon prior written permission by the Custody of the Holy > Land." > > At the time, President Moshe Katzav was about to embark on a visit > to the Vatican. In the face of increasing public pressure, he was > forced to deny any plans to sign away the King David's complex in > Jerusalem. It now appears, however, that this option has once again > surfaced. > > AsiaNews reported late last month that Israel and the Holy See "have > agreed to hold negotiating sessions of their 'Bilateral Permanent > Working Commission' in December and in January - after the Olmert > Government had, in effect, declined to do so ever since taking > office last spring... The news is being received with relief, and > with cautious optimism, in Church circles." > > The paper reported that "there were apprehensions that the > protracted negotiations (begun on 11 March 1999) required by the > 1993 Fundamental Agreement between the Holy See and the State of > Israel, might be suspended indefinitely - with incalculable > consequences, both for the Catholic institutions in Israel and for > the bilateral relationship." > > Church's Steady and Discreet Efforts Pay Off > "It is not known precisely what caused [Israel's] sudden change of > attitude," AsiaNews reported, "though it is understood that the > Vatican had never given up on its steady (though characteristically > discreet) diplomatic efforts. Furthermore, it has often been > reported in the media that both the American Catholic Church and > influential components of the U.S. Government - at the Department of > State, in the Congress, and in the White House itself - have been > encouraging Israel constantly to make sure it is faithful to its > international commitments vis-a-vis the Holy See and the Catholic > Church." > > At present, since shortly after the Six-Day War in 1967, the > Diaspora Yeshiva is located on Mt. Zion, and has long warned of the > catastrophic implications for Israel if the deal goes through. "This > is an enormous issue that is being pushed through without any public > debate whatsoever," Yeshiva Director Rabbi Shabtai Herman told > Arutz-7 last year. > > Rabbi Herman explained that if the Catholic Church receives control > of the area, just a few hundred yards from the Temple Mount and > adjacent to the Old City walls, it will turn it into "the > international center for Catholics all around the world - and if the > pope just gives the word, Christians will be flocking over here en > masse." > > Rabbi Mordechai Goldstein, who founded and still runs the Diaspora > Yeshiva, officially known as Yeshiva Toras Yisrael, elaborated in a > follow-up discussion with Arutz-7: > "According to their bible, the land is to return to the Christians, > and 144,000 Jews are to return to Mt. Zion. So their plan is for > them to take control of the site, and then to announce that they are > holding a mass reenactment of the Last Supper, with [all types of > religious rituals], and to invite millions of Christians to come to > Jerusalem and celebrate." He said that this means much tourism money > for Israel, and that someone in the Israeli government is apparently > very interested in making this happen. > > The King David's Tomb complex is a complex of buildings of some > 100,000 square feet where David and Solomon, and kings of Judea, are > said to be buried. "It is certainly one of the holiest spots in the > Land of Israel," Rabbi Herman said. "We've already given away the > Temple Mount and the Machpelah Cave, except for here and there when > we're allowed in; now they want to give Mt. Zion away as well? For > thousands of years, this area was almost always totally closed off > to Jews. G-d gave it back to us in 1948, but parts of it were still > in range and sight of Jordanian snipers and were not in full use. > After 1967, Rabbi Goldstein founded the Diaspora Yeshiva here - and > it became an island of holiness, the first yeshiva for baalei > teshuvah [newly religious] in Israel; we were there day and night > learning Torah. Rabbi Goldstein was almost prophetic in establishing > this yeshiva at that time at that spot; destiny from above > intertwined him with Mt. Zion." > > Rabbi Herman said that the above plan is merely the first step of a > larger plan to turn all of Mt. Zion into a Christian site. He > explained that the lower level of the complex, containing many > chambers, rooms, passageways and the like, has long been under the > control of Israeli bodies such as the Lands Authority, and that half > of the area was assigned to the Diaspora Yeshiva. > > MK Benny Elon (National Union), who served twice as Minister of > Tourism, told Arutz-7's Hebrew newsmagazine, "This issue was raised > several years ago. When I was Tourism Minister, I made it clear to a > representative of the Pope that we would allow them to use one room > with a side entrance that would not bother the yeshiva. But under no > circumstances would we allow the transfer of ownership. But they > said they want ownership, and that the Pope sees this place as the > second-holiest, after the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. We have to > be very strong and not give in to the Vatican on this." > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 15, 2008 9:47:05 AM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM DIVIDED. > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Dear Joe, > > Thanks so very much for sending this. I agree with you on this and > I, of all people, usually stay clear of "world domination" > conspiracy theories of all types. I urge everyone to read these > materials carefully. BTW, I think many of us remember Sept, 1993 > quite well and also that these events occurred the week of Rosh > HaShannah. > > James > > > On Jul 15, 2008, at 6:37 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > >> Shalom Chaverim, >> >> >> With the recent events that transpired in Paris on Bastille Day , I >> am posting some interesting material concerning the division of >> Yerushalayim that most of you may not be aware of. The information >> contained herein requires our deepest thoughts and prayers. >> >> >> Many of you may not be aware that the nations of the world came >> against Yerushalayim on the 9th December 1997. This is not another >> conspiracy theory. The prophecies contained in the book of >> Zechariah are unfolding before our very eyes without media >> coverage. On the date mentioned above at the UN, the battle for >> Yerushalayim began on paper. 148 nations voted for, 1 nation >> against (Yisrael), with 9 abstentions. I researched this and I have >> attached the relevant UN Resolution. >> >> I have also attached a report by Joel Bainerman . Please take the >> time to read his explosive findings. With President Sarkozy of >> France as the architect of the" Mediterranean Union", this report >> starts to underline the main best kept secrets of it's contents.We >> now have Catholic, Jewish, Greek Orthodox and Islamic nations >> signing this treaty. Suddenly Al Assad of Syria is back on the >> scene, the Golan is back on the negotiating table, Olmert and Abbas >> are close to peace . PEACE, PEACE is in the air. But behind the >> scenes the sweet heart deals are flying thick and thin. This will >> inevitably lead to war. When and how , only HaShem knows. >> >> Shalom v'Ahavah >> JOE. >> >> < >> Thevaticansagenda >> .doc>_______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1553 - Release Date: > 7/15/2008 5:48 AM > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/de03a12e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 19:37:25 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:37:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Special Lekarev Report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a terrible tragedy. I feel so sick inside looking at these young men's faces, and knowing they are dead. Is there no wisdom left, that we would release murderers to slaughter our children again? These terrorist beasts are rewarded with freedom to come back and stalk their innocent prey. This is not justice, and we are to do justice and judgment, Gen 18:19. Instead we are encouraging and enabling our enemies' bloodlust. Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 6:47 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Special Lekarev Report The Lekarev Report SPECIAL EDITION THE RETURN OF OUR SOLDIERS 13 Tammuz 5768 July 16, 2008 Costly in the sight of Hashem is the death of His righteous ones. Psalm 116:15 Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev May their memories be for a blessing to all Israel. ALL ISRAEL MOURNS AND WEEPS Til the very last moment, we hoped and we prayed that by some miracle, Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev would return to us alive. At 9:40 this morning, those hopes were dashed when Lebanese television flashed this picture of two coffins being removed from Hizbollah vehicles to be transferred to the Red Cross trucks standing by to deliver the bodies of our soldiers into Israeli hands. I began at 8:30 this morning monitoring the unfolding events and my report follows. 8:30 AM Israel time Like most Israelis this morning, I am glued to the television, laptop in front of me, to give you a full and descriptive report on this historic day, the return of our soldiers, Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser. The Israeli Defense Forces have been put on FULL ALERT - the Army, Air Force and the Navy. 8:42 AM At this time, we have seen Samir Kuntar, the arch terrorist at the center of this deal, along with 4 other terrorists, being processed out of their prisons and prepared for the drive to the Rosh Hanikra crossing in northern Israel where the exchange will take place. We have just been shown the Red Cross trucks which are transporting the bodies of 199 Arab terrorists who had been buried in Israel and are now being transferred to Lebanon, making the price of getting our sons back - 5 living terrorists and 199 bodies. The two IDF generals who will be the first ones to be told whether or not, in fact, Regev and Goldwasswer are dead or alive, have arrived at the scene. The Goldwasser and Regev families are waiting in their homes for the final word on the condition of their loved ones. Once they are on the Israeli side, they will be taken to a special tent that has been erected where medical personnel are waiting to positively identify the bodies. After that is completed, their families will then be brought to the tent to be alone with their loved ones for a time. If the bodies are in such condition that they cannot be positively identified at the tent, helicopters are standing by to transfer them to the Forensic laboratory at Abu Kabir. 9:00 AM The convoy bringing the two IDF soldiers has arrived on the Lebanese side. We have also been shown by Hizbollah television several busses covered with flowers that are to transport the 199 bodies. At the moment, the father of an IDF soldier who taken prisoner in the Battle of Sultan in the first Lebanese war, is speaking with reporters. His emotion is obvious as he recounts how for two years, exactly like the Regev and Goldwasser families, he also did not know whether his son was alive or dead. He said he is shaking inside as he waits to learn the fate of Goldwasser and Regev, hoping against hope that, unlike his son whose body was returned in a previous exchange, they will return alive. 9:07 AM We can now see the vehicles with blacked out windows on the Lebanese side of the border, and have just been told that the German official from the Red Cross on the Lebanese side has just received the information from Hizbollah as to the condition of the two soldiers. He is to relay the information to the Israeli Generals who will inform the families. Once the families have been told, it will be relayed to the Israeli public. We are holding our breath for the announcement. 9:40 AM HIZBOLLAH TELEVISION HAS JUST SHOWN TWO COFFINS BEING REMOVED FROM THEIR VEHICLES AND PLACED ON THE GROUND. ALTHOUGH WE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT OUR SOLDIERS WERE DEAD, THIS MOMENT - ACTUALLY SEEING THE TWO COFFINS AFTER THESE TWO YEARS OF WAITING, PRAYING, HOPING - IS DEEPLY PAINFUL FOR EVERY ISRAELI. To the very last second, Hizbollah REFUSED to give any information, deliberately prolonging the agony of the families and all Israel to know, once and for all, the status of our soldiers. The mental cruelty which Nasrallah has imposed on the families of the soldiers is the topic of many commentators at the moment. The television commentator's voice is breaking as he says that every Israeli is weeping at this moment. On our TV screens now are photos of Eldad Regev, followed by photos of Ehud Goldwasser at different ages. The sadness of everyone is overwhelming - commentators, reporters, neighbors of the Regev and Goldwasser familes who were waiting outside their homes. Eldad Regev would have been 28 next month and was single. He was scheduled to begin his university studies two years ago as soon as the war was over. Ehud Goldwasser, who would be 35 next Tuesday, is survived by his wife, Karnit, and two young children. Both family homes have been filled with reporters since the early hours who now report that moments ago, when the first pictures of the two coffins burst on the television screens, cries of horror filled both homes. Even the reporters, accustomed to many tragic scenes, began to weep. Israelis by the dozens are gathering outside both homes, lighting memorial candles in honor of the slain soldiers and weeping as if Ehud and Eldad were the own sons. For Israelis, this scene hits at the heart of every home for every parent faces the day that his sons and daughters enter the IDF. One of the most important elements of today's events is the re-affirmation to Israeli parents as well as to Israeli young people that Israel has not abandoned its long held principle to do whatever it takes to bring our captive soldiers home. 11: 00 AM -BODIES POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED BY RED CROSS it has just been announced that the Red Cross has positively identified the remains as those of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev. The bodies are now to be transferred into Israeli hands where Israeli personnel will also conduct their own identification. It has been a very emotional morning. The IDF remains on full alert as concerns are very high that Hizbollah will attack Israel after receiving back its terrorists. Lebanese television continues to show scenes in Lebanon which make Israeli blood boil - a huge banner at the Beirut Airport says "Freedom Guaranteed by Nasrallah". Another one says "Lebanon Rejoices while Israel Mourns". The most despicable scene however, has flashed across the screen twice. Crowds that have gathered at the Beirut airport awaiting the "triumphal" arrival of the murderer, Kuntar and the other five, are seen giving the straight arm "Nazi" salute as they celebrate Hizbollah's "victory" over Israel. 11:25 am - THE REMAINS OF OUR SOLDIERS HAVE JUST CROSSED INTO ISRAEL. THEY ARE FINALLY HOME. MAY THEIR MEMORIES BE FOR A BLESSING AND MAY THEIR FAMILIES BE COMFORTED WITH ALL THE MOURNERS IN ZION AND IN JERUSALEM. May Hashem bring Shalom to the Goldwasswer and Regev families and heal their broken hearts, and the hearts of all Israel, Leah -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/a2a001d1/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 16 21:36:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:36:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Infamy' Message-ID: Infamy By Naomi Ragen I was a new oleh when the PFLP and two Germans hijacked a plane full of Israelis to Entebbe. I remember well those nail-biting days, the moral dilemma of freeing dangerous terrorists for live hostages; the idea that negotiations would just lead to more hijackings. But what other choice did we have? After all, they were in Uganda, so far away . We found a way. I will never forget the morning of July 4, 1976, waking up to the news. Our soldiers had gone in, at great personal risk. They had saved almost everyone, and killed the terrorists. We were not helpless victims anymore, the Jews. No, we were clever, and resourceful and courageous. We showed the world how to behave. We led the way. I wake up this morning of July 16, 2008 with quite another feeling. Our soldiers, kidnapped on our own land, not across any international border, are brought back to us in caskets after two years of sadistic playfulness with the hearts of their families by Hezbollah terrorists, who led us to believe they were alive. And in exchange for dead bodies, we turn over a despicable baby-killer, Sami Kuntar. Oh, you will hear the boosters of the Israeli government sigh. What can we do? We are civilized and they are not. We care about our soldiers and their families. No, I'm afraid you do not. If you cared, then you would have a death penalty for people like Kuntar, so that they too can be released in caskets. And if you cared, you would be intelligent enough, seeing our soldiers brought back to us dead, to have put a bullet through Kuntar and then turned him over to his friends. Civilized is a euphemism for weak and helpless. Civilized is not a moral value, because we all know what Western civilization is capable of. Concentration camps. Civilian round-ups, the gassing of children. All this under the banner of laws and policemen and governments. On the other hand, the moral thing to do to a tried and convicted murderer like Kuntar is to spill his blood, because he has spilled the blood of others. That may not fit in with current civilized niceties, but let no one say it is immoral. When it comes to immoral, to release Kuntar to a hero's welcome and the opportunity to murder others is on the top of the scale. My government, the Israeli government, arranged this. They let it happen. They oversaw it and implemented it. I am deeply ashamed to be an Israeli today. And I'm not very proud of being a Jew either, if this is how a Jewish country behaves. To lead the world in ever more despicable acts of appeasement is nothing to be proud of. The torch we always carried, the "light unto the nations" has been blown out by the hot-air of our politicians. If we cared about our soldiers, we would not be showing our enemies that kidnapping and terrorism pay. We would not be setting the stage for the next murderous terrorist raid and hostage standoff. We would be passing laws with a mandatory death penalty for convicted terrorists with blood on their hands, as well as their accomplices. We would be making these laws retroactive. Then, we would be cutting off all water and electricity to Gaza until Gilad Shalit is released. If that didn't work, we'd begin executions within one week, increasing the number convicted terrorists facing firing squads with each passing day until Gilad is returned to us safe and sound. And if that didn't work, we would begin daily bombings of Gaza, with the same number and frequency of attacks that our own city Sderot has suffered over the past three years from the Gazans. Not civilized? Perhaps. But moral. Extremely moral. My fantasy is that Israelis will rise up and overturn the political system which has left them with the dregs of their nation as leaders- a bunch of self-serving crooks and syncophants who will do anything to stay in office; an electoral system in which a party like Kadima, with its collection of felons and moral imbeciles , who got only 23% of the vote, is allowed to rule us into the ground. We have Mr. Olmert, and Ms. Livni, and Mr. Peres, and Mr. Ramon (a convicted sex offender, who is now in line to take over from Olmert) and many, many others to thank, for creating this day of infamy. May G-d redeem us from them. **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/1eed061e/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Jul 16 22:51:52 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 23:51:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Peek at the Preface to Restoring Abrahamic Faith Message-ID: <09F89CDC-CFA0-4A01-9E49-8980DCF00889@earthlink.net> Here is the Preface to my new little book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith. If you have not pre-ordered I invite you to do so as I am paying for the first printing with orders from "fans" like some of you...After that things should recycle and perpetuate themselves... I wrote this for the wide general public. I hope it provides an entre for many thousands to look again at the Hebrew faith, which was in fact the faith of Jesus of Nazareth. Go to genesis2000.org to order on-ine or by check... James Tabor Preface I began thinking seriously about the contents of this book back in the late 1960s. I had graduated from college with majors in Greek and Bible, fired by a passion for discovering the historical Jesus. It was that Quest that led me to the insights and concepts represented herein. The more I learned about Jesus the more I realized how vital it was to see him as a Jew who put his faith in the God of Abraham, who upheld the Torah, and who lived and died for his ancestral faith. As a Christian I had grown up with a strong emphasis on the New Testament. The ?Old Testament,? as we called it, was looked on as mere ?background? to the superceding revelation brought by Jesus and the apostle Paul. I had never taken the ?Jewishness? of Jesus very seriously?at least not in terms of its implications. I presented the results of my forty years of academic work on the historical Jesus in a previous book, The Jesus Dynasty (Simon & Schuster, 2006). This book goes quite a few steps beyond. It is a personal manifesto of my own biblical faith, informed by my historical work, while at the same time moving outside its strict academic parameters. I am enamored with the Hebrew Bible?Torah, Prophets, and Writings?and it has riveted me like nothing else over these many years. In its pages I find compelling testimony to the experiences of those who have sought to ?walk with God,? and a program of hope for our troubled planet. The idea and the ideal of the Kingdom of God?that is, God?s will being done on earth as in heaven, is one that beckons us across the ages. This book is about that ancient Hebrew faith and what it might mean to us in the 21st century. Pentecost, June 15, 2008 Mevasseret Zion, Israel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080716/d102c0ca/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 16 23:43:33 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:43:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Peek at the Preface to Restoring Abrahamic Faith In-Reply-To: <09F89CDC-CFA0-4A01-9E49-8980DCF00889@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <071720080443.6747.487ECDF5000761C200001A5B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I'm gonna read it again when I get mine. When do you think it will be released James. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from James Tabor : -------------- Here is the Preface to my new little book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith. If you have not pre-ordered I invite you to do so as I am paying for the first printing with orders from "fans" like some of you...After that things should recycle and perpetuate themselves... I wrote this for the wide general public. I hope it provides an entre for many thousands to look again at the Hebrew faith, which was in fact the faith of Jesus of Nazareth. Go to genesis2000.org to order on-ine or by check... James Tabor Preface I began thinking seriously about the contents of this book back in the late 1960s. I had graduated from college with majors in Greek and Bible, fired by a passion for discovering the historical Jesus. It was that Quest that led me to the insights and concepts represented herein. The more I learned about Jesus the more I realized how vital it was to see him as a Jew who put his faith in the God of Abraham, who upheld the Torah, and who lived and died for his ancestral faith. As a Christian I had grown up with a strong emphasis on the New Testament. The ?Old Testament,? as we called it, was looked on as mere ?background? to the superceding revelation brought by Jesus and the apostle Paul. I had never taken the ?Jewishness? of Jesus very seriously?at least not in terms of its implications. I presented the results of my forty years of academic work on the historical Jesus in a previous book, The Jesus Dynasty (Simon & Schuster, 2006). This book goes quite a few steps beyond. It is a personal manifesto of my own biblical faith, informed by my historical work, while at the same time moving outside its strict academic parameters. I am enamored with the Hebrew Bible?Torah, Prophets, and Writings?and it has riveted me like nothing else over these many years. In its pages I find compelling testimony to the experiences of those who have sought to ?walk with God,? and a program of hope for our troubled planet. The idea and the ideal of the Kingdom of God?that is, God?s will being done on earth as in heaven, is one that beckons us across the ages. This book is about that ancient Hebrew faith and what it might mean to us in the 21st century. Pentecost, June 15, 2008 Mevasseret Zion, Israel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/1a4057bf/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 17 05:51:06 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:51:06 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 14 Tammuz, 5768, the Lekarev Report Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 14 Tammuz 5768 July 17, 2008 I shall walk before Hashem in the lands of the living. I trusted even when I said: 'I am greatly afflicted.' Psalm 116:9-10 **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/cef28e7c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 17 05:59:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 06:59:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Pinchas Message-ID: (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) Daily Israel Report _Subscribe (free)_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe) _Home_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News Briefs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx) _Opinion_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/) _Judaism_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx) _Features_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9) _Blogs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/) _Admin_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/) _Radio_ (http://www.israelnationalradio.com/) | _Live _ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx) _TV_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/) _Jukebox_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx) _Israel Pics_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict) _Services_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful) _RSS_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS) _Advertise_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum) Pinchas: After Demoralisation 14 Tammuz 5768, 17 July 08 05:21 by Daniel Pinner (IsraelNN.com) "HaShem spoke to Moshe, saying: Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen has turned back My fury from upon the Children of Israel by being zealous for My zealousness in their midst, so I did not destroy the Children of Israel. Therefore, say: I hereby give him My covenant of peace; and it will be his and his descendants' after him - a covenant of eternal Kehunah ['priesthood'], in return for having been zealous for his God and atoning for the Children of Israel." (Numbers 25:10) This has been a difficult week, a depressing week, a demoralising week. We have a general rule that no reading ends on a depressing note. This is the reason that when we conclude the public readings of Isaiah (Haftarah of Shabbat Rosh Chodesh), Malachi (Haftarah of Shabbat HaGadol), Lamentations (on the 9th of Av), and Ecclesiastes (on Shabbat of Chol HaMo'ed Sukkot), we always repeat the penultimate verse of each of these books. Each of them ends with a negative idea, so we repeat the previous verse in order to conclude with a more pleasant theme. But last week's parasha breaks that rule. Parashat Balak concludes with the words, "And those [Jews] who died in the plague were twenty-four thousand." (Numbers 25:9) This final verse, the death of 24,000 Jews - equivalent to two days in Auschwitz - has been reverberating in our ears since last Shabbat morning. This has been a gloomy week on other levels, too. Last Shabbat, the 9th of Tammuz, was the date that Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian army breached the walls of Jerusalem in the year 3338 (422 BCE; II Kings 25:1-3; Jeremiah 39:5). This date was observed as a fast day throughout the Babylonian exile and until the Second Temple was rebuilt (Rosh HaShanah 18b; Tur, Orach Chaim 549). When the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem on the 17th of Tammuz 3828 (68 CE), the fast was moved to that date; but in any event, this week we already began to hear the echoes of the impending Three Weeks of mourning. And last Shabbat, the 9th of Tammuz, was also the yahrtzeit of seven Jews who were murdered at the French Hill hitch-hiking station by an Arab suicide terrorist in 5762 (2002). Four days later, on Wednesday, we saw the government of Israel commit one of the most despicable acts since the signing of the Oslo death accords 15 years ago, when the cabinet voted to release some of the most vicious and bloodthirsty terrorists who ever graced Israeli prisons. President Shimon Peres sanctimoniously declared that "my hand will shudder as I sign the release-form" (and one wonders if that same hand shuddered before it shook Yasser Arafat's blood-stained hand, before it hugged Arafat's body, before it signed the Oslo death accords, or before it gave 70,000 Kalachnikov assault rifles to the PLO). And then comes this week's parasha: "Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen has turned back My fury from upon the Children on Israel by being zealous for My zealousness in their midst, so I did not destroy the Children of Israel." How exactly did Pinchas save the Children of Israel, and earn himself and his descendants an eternal covenant of peace with God Himself in the process? Well, not by making a peace agreement with enemies who were sworn to Israel's destruction, nor by granting amnesty to murderers, nor yet by agreeing to coexist with evil. Rather, "Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen saw [the Jewish leader flaunting his immorality with the Midianite princess], and he arose from the midst of the congregation, taking a javelin in his hand. He came after the man of Israel to the tent, and he pierced both of them - the man of Israel and the woman, through her stomach; and the plague was stopped from the Children of Israel." (Numbers 25:8) Now, there is much discussion regarding Pinchas' halachic authority to kill these two people - one, a leader of Israel; the other, a Midianite princess. To be sure, had he asked a Beit Din (a rabbinic court), they would have forbidden him to kill them: cohabiting in public is not a sin that carries a death penalty by court of law. More than that, had Zimri son of Salu, the Israelite leader in question, killed Pinchas in self-defence, he would have been justified in court. But it was a desperate situation, with Pinchas acting purely for the sake of Heaven; God Himself justified Pinchas. The Targum Yonatan (Numbers 25:8) synthesises several Midrashic sources: "Twelve miracles were wrought for Pinchas.... The first miracle was that he should have separated them but they remained together; the second miracle was that their mouths were sealed up and they could not shout, because had they shouted they would have been rescued; the third miracle was that when he aimed his javelin he pierced them together, both in their sexual organs; the fourth miracle was that the javelin remained firm in the wound that it had made; the fifth miracle was that when he lifted them high, the lintel [of the tent-entrance] was elevated so he could carry them out; the sixth miracle was that he carried them throughout the Israelite camp, six parsot [about 16 miles/26 km] without getting tired; the seventh miracle was that he carried them aloft in his right hand [his fighting hand, which should have left him vulnerable] in the sight of all his relatives, and they were unable to harm him; the eighth miracle was that the wooden handle of the javelin was strengthened and did not break under the weight; the ninth miracle was that the blade became precisely the length of them both and did not exit; the tenth miracle was that an angel came and switched them around, putting the woman beneath and the man above, so that the whole House of Israel would see their disgrace; the eleventh miracle was that they were preserved alive for as long as it took him to parade them throughout the camp, so that no kohen's tent would contract the ritual uncleanness of a dead body; the twelfth miracle was that their blood congealed and did not drip upon him when he carried them through the camp." Under these peculiar circumstances, Pinchas had to act alone, without guidance, on a spur-of-the-moment decision. And he also had to have his action ratified in public by God Himself. By acting as he did when he did, Pinchas prevented the plague spreading any further - that is, he saved the rest of the nation from death; this was the reason that he was granted the covenant of eternal Kehunah, the covenant of peace. It was surely a terribly demoralising experience to live through: after winning military victory in wars over the king of Arad, the Amorites and Bashan (Chapter 21), and spiritual victory over Balak and Balaam, now to have 24,000 dead in a plague. But two facts stand out. One is that this was the last disaster that would befall Israel in the desert. Apart from Moshe himself, no Jew would die before entering the Land of Israel just several weeks later. Though they did not yet know it, those who survived this tragedy were on the verge of redemption; they would see no more death before arriving in Israel. And the other is that in spite of all, national life continued without a break. God immediately told Moshe to publicly appoint Joshua as his successor (27:18-23), and immediately after that continued by giving the mitzvot of sacrifices (Chapter 28) and of the Festivals (Chapter 29). Leaders of Israel who flaunt their immorality, who glorify in their love of enemy nations and the enemy nations' love for them, can indeed bring tragedy on Israel. They do indeed demoralise the entire nation. But we, standing at the very threshold of redemption, can never know what will happen between now and the final deliverance. Maybe, indeed, this is the last tragedy that we will have to undergo; maybe, indeed, we will see no more death until the final Redemption comes. But in any event, the Jewish response to any bad situation, no matter how gloomy, no matter how demoralising, is to combat evil and evil-doers, even - no, especially - when those evil-doers are leaders of Israel. And, even in the gloomiest of circumstances, to continue to fulfil the mitzvot. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/df1da54b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 17 06:01:27 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:01:27 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Personal Pain, Universal Prayer" Message-ID: Personal Pain, Universal Prayer 14 Tammuz 5768, 17 July 08 05:20 by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) The prayers within the Siddur - our classical prayer book - enable us to grow spiritually, provided that we chant these words with the proper consciousness, and not just by rote. One aspect of this spiritual growth can come from the prayers that we chant on behalf of all peoples and all creatures. Before the reading of the Torah during the morning service on Mondays and Thursdays, we chant special prayers, including the following excerpts, which request deliverance from the suffering of our lonely exile among the nations: "Our Father, the compassionate Father, show us a sign for good and gather in our dispersed from the four ends of the earth; let all the nations recognize that You are HaShem, our God. And now HaShem, You are our Father; we are the clay and You are our Molder, and Your handiwork are we all. Save us for Your Name?s sake, our Rock, our Sovereign, and our Redeemer. ...In Your abundant compassion, HaShem, our God, pity, have mercy, and save the sheep of Your pasture.... Do not forsake us, HaShem, our God, be not distant from us, for our soul is diminished by sword and captivity, pestilence and plague, and every distress and woe." In the midst of these anguished supplications, we add: "O Compassionate and Gracious God, have compassion on us and on all Your works, for there is none like You." "And on all Your works" - in his commentary on these words, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch writes: "Even in a world that is turned against us in hostility, we beseech God?s compassion not for ourselves alone, but for all His creatures." (Hirsch Siddur, Feldheim Publications) A universal perspective in the midst of suffering was expressed during the Middle Ages. It was during this period that the Christian Crusaders massacred entire Jewish communities, especially in Germany. The worst massacres took place during the weeks between Passover and Shavuos. When the Christian Crusaders attacked our People as the Crusaders made their way to the Holy Land, they offered us the following choice: "The cross or death!" Tens of thousands of Jewish men, women and children chose death rather than abandon their belief in the Divine oneness and unity. In the book, The Collected Writings of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (Volume 1, Iyar 2), we find a description of the great brutality of the Christian Crusades. Rabbi Hirsch writes: "A blind bloody mania had taken hold of the nations to spill the blood of the brethren of their 'god' in a frenzy of murder and proselytism." The suffering caused by the Crusades is described in piyutim - poetic prayers - which were composed by Torah sages of that era. Rabbi Hirsch cites quotes from these piyutim, including the following statement where the nation of Israel expresses her faith in the midst of the Christian persecution: "Strangers speak with proud haughtiness to me: 'You are placing your trust in the wind! You remain driven about like a frightened deer! What hope have you, tortured nation?' I say: 'My hope is in the word of truth, in justice which is offended; in the foundation of my faith.... Depart from me, you evil doers! I remain with the mandate of my God.'" Rabbi Hirsch also points out that during this barbaric period, the Torah sages in Europe instituted the custom of chanting the following psalm during the period between Passover and Shavuos, for this psalm reminds us of the universal goal of our history: "To the One Who grants victory through the power of music -- a psalm, a song. May God favor us and bless us; may He illuminate His countenance among us, Selah. To make known Your way on earth, Your salvation among all the nations. The Peoples will acknowledge You, O God; the Peoples will acknowledge you -- all of them! Regimes will be glad and sing for joy, because You will judge the Peoples fairly and guide with fairness the regimes on earth, Selah. The Peoples will acknowledge You, O God; the Peoples will acknowledge You -- all of them! The earth will then have yielded its produce, and God, our God, shall bless us. May God bless us, and may all the ends of the earth revere Him." (Tehilim/Psalms 67) Regarding the decision of the sages to chant this universal psalm during a period of brutal persecution, Rabbi Hirsch writes: "They saw the nations everywhere goaded by a spirit of madness, brutality, bloodthirstiness, and greed. Enslaved by this spirit, the nations degenerated, and everywhere the Jewish People found themselves bleeding as the first victim. Still they found solace in the certainty that this mania would eventually vanish. They knew that in spite of bloodthirstiness and greed, brute force and injustice, the good, the humane, and the Godly in the human breast would work their way through." (Collected Writings, Volume 1, Iyar 2) Some leading Torah sages and Kabbalists who fled the brutal Christian persecution of the Jewish People during the Middle Ages settled in the holy city of Tsfat (Safed), which is located in the north of the Land of Israel (then under the control of the Muslim Ottoman Turkish Empire). In Tsfat, these sages instituted the custom of chanting a special group of psalms to welcome the arrival of Shabbos. These psalms express our People's yearning for the redemption of the entire world. For example, one of these psalms proclaims the following message regarding the Messianic age of universal redemption: "The fields and all that is therein will exult; then all the trees of the forest will sing with joy - before HaShem, for He will have arrived, He will have arrived to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and peoples in His faithfulness." (Tehillim/Psalms 96:12-13) There is an ancient work, Perek Shirah (Chapter of Song), which lists verses that express the special song of various aspects of creation. According to Perek Shirah, the song of the trees is expressed in the following words from the above passage: "Then all the trees of the forest will sing with joy - before HaShem, for He will have arrived, He will have arrived to judge the earth." Rabbi Nosson Scherman, in the ArtScroll edition of Perek Shirah, offers the following commentary on this song of the trees: "Where there has been disarray, a judge must restore order and replace chaos with justice. When the world is in turmoil, and justice is perverted, even the trees of the wild suffer, for the earth?s resources are abused and de pleted. When the rule of the Ultimate Judge is acknowledged and accepted, even the trees will express their joy by waving their branches ecstatically, because the health of nature will be restored." copyright (c) 2008 by Mr. Yosef Ben Shlomo HaKohen **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/be3d7349/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 17 06:04:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:04:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "A reason to be optimistic" Message-ID: A Reason to be Optimistic 14 Tammuz 5768, 17 July 08 05:17 by Go?el Jasper (IsraelNN.com) For years, I have been accused of wearing rose-colored glasses concerning Aliyah, Israel and our incredibly-holy Land. And for the most part, I have maintained my innocence, responding to the accusations by stating the irrefutable facts: 1. At no time since the days of Ezra and Nehemiah has the Land of Israel been more welcoming to the Jewish people; 1. It has never been easier for a Jewish person to move to Eretz Yisrael; 1. The Torah is quite clear that it is our obligation to live here whether life is easier here or not; 1. The Torah is also quite clear that, well, HaShem is not really such a big fan of people who have not-nice things to say about our Land; 1. The State of Israel, while not always run by those of purest heart and clearest thinking, is ours, the only Jewish country in the entire world. But today is a tough day. Today is a day when even I had the thought creep into my mind: What the heck is wrong with us? And when I saw the two coffins appear on the television screen in my office, the first words out of my mouth were, "We are pathetic." How else could you explain a country that will give up a convicted murderer who has promised to murder again? How else could you explain a country that doesn't even know for sure what it is receiving in exchange for that murderer until the public - including the families of Eldad Regev, H.y.d., and Ehud Goldwasser, H.y.d. - sees two coffins appear on the television screen? How else can you explain watching the two coffins sitting there, knowing that in the past Israel has been able to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat? And waiting... waiting... and then, nothing. We are pathetic. In 1994, Nachshon Wachsman, H.y.d., was kidnapped and it seemed the whole Jewish world was praying for his rescue. Ultimately, the news we received was the worst. He had been killed in a failed rescue attempt. Yes, the news was the worst. Or at least we thought it was. Until today. Today, we really understand what the worst news is. Today, we are feeling the effects of not even fighting. Today, we are the laughingstock of the Arab world; and even those around the world who love us - and yes, they do exist - are scratching their heads. This is the Israel of Entebbe? This is the Israel of the Iraqi nuclear reactor? This is the Israel of the Six-Day War? Yes, this is that Israel. These are dark days for the Jews of Israel and, as such, for the entire Jewish world. But we are still the Jewish people. We are still the nation that has survived - and thrived - throughout the centuries against all rational calculation. We are the nation that won an un-winnable war in six days, and we are the nation that rescued the hostages from Entebbe, and we are the nation that bombed Iraq's nuclear reactor. We are also the nation that bombed Syria's nuclear facility just a few months ago. We are also the only nation to have thousands of people immigrate to its shores each year because of religious and philosophical destiny. We are also the nation that allows my sons to wear long side-curls and yarmulkes without question. We are a nation that is far from perfect, but then again, our entire history is one lacking perfection, from the Biblical episodes of the Golden Calf to the Sin of the Spies to Moshe hitting the rock to King Saul trying to kill soon-to-be King David to our Judge Samson marrying a Philistine woman and to the modern days of the Holocaust, and assimilation, and Moshe Dayan giving the Temple Mount keys to the Waqf leadership, and Sharon evicting 8,000 Jews from their homes. But we are also a nation with a future. My wife and I are raising our kids here. We are raising them to be proud, honest, caring, Torah-observant Jews. And this Friday night, when I go around the dinner table and give each of the children the three-faceted blessing, I will have another prayer in mind as well: "May HaShem help us to raise you in our Land in a way that you will help the Jewish people to maximize our potential." And I will look into each of their eyes and see the holiness and the potential that HaShem has placed within them and within all Jewish children. And that is why I - and why we - have reason to be optimistic. _www_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/174d4f7a/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 06:58:55 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 04:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Pinchas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <546328.35899.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Hanoch, ? This was the Parsha during the week of my birth - 7/22/1959. ? Tracy --- On Thu, 7/17/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Pinchas To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 5:59 AM Daily Israel Report Subscribe (free) Home News News Briefs Opinion Judaism Features Blogs Admin Radio | Live TV Jukebox Israel Pics Services RSS Advertise Pinchas: After Demoralisation 14 Tammuz 5768, 17 July 08 05:21by Daniel Pinner (IsraelNN.com) "HaShem spoke to Moshe, saying: Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen has turned back My fury from upon the Children of Israel by being zealous for My zealousness in their midst, so I did not destroy the Children of Israel. Therefore, say: I hereby give him My covenant of peace; and it will be his and his descendants' after him - a covenant of eternal Kehunah ['priesthood'], in return for having been zealous for his God and atoning for the Children of Israel." (Numbers 25:10) This has been a difficult week, a depressing week, a demoralising week. We have a general rule that no reading ends on a depressing note. This is the reason that when we conclude the public readings of Isaiah (Haftarah of Shabbat Rosh Chodesh), Malachi (Haftarah of Shabbat HaGadol), Lamentations (on the 9th of Av), and Ecclesiastes (on Shabbat of Chol HaMo'ed Sukkot), we always repeat the penultimate verse of each of these books. Each of them ends with a negative idea, so we repeat the previous verse in order to conclude with a more pleasant theme. But last week's parasha breaks that rule. Parashat Balak concludes with the words, "And those [Jews] who died in the plague were twenty-four thousand." (Numbers 25:9) This final verse, the death of 24,000 Jews - equivalent to two days in Auschwitz - has been reverberating in our ears since last Shabbat morning. This has been a gloomy week on other levels, too. Last Shabbat, the 9th of Tammuz, was the date that Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian army breached the walls of Jerusalem in the year 3338 (422 BCE; II Kings 25:1-3; Jeremiah 39:5). This date was observed as a fast day throughout the Babylonian exile and until the Second Temple was rebuilt (Rosh HaShanah 18b; Tur, Orach Chaim 549). When the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem on the 17th of Tammuz 3828 (68 CE), the fast was moved to that date; but in any event, this week we already began to hear the echoes of the impending Three Weeks of mourning. And last Shabbat, the 9th of Tammuz, was also the yahrtzeit of seven Jews who were murdered at the French Hill hitch-hiking station by an Arab suicide terrorist in 5762 (2002). Four days later, on Wednesday, we saw the government of Israel commit one of the most despicable acts since the signing of the Oslo death accords 15 years ago, when the cabinet voted to release some of the most vicious and bloodthirsty terrorists who ever graced Israeli prisons. President Shimon Peres sanctimoniously declared that "my hand will shudder as I sign the release-form" (and one wonders if that same hand shuddered before it shook Yasser Arafat's blood-stained hand, before it hugged Arafat's body, before it signed the Oslo death accords, or before it gave 70,000 Kalachnikov assault rifles to the PLO). And then comes this week's parasha: "Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen has turned back My fury from upon the Children on Israel by being zealous for My zealousness in their midst, so I did not destroy the Children of Israel." How exactly did Pinchas save the Children of Israel, and earn himself and his descendants an eternal covenant of peace with God Himself in the process? Well, not by making a peace agreement with enemies who were sworn to Israel's destruction, nor by granting amnesty to murderers, nor yet by agreeing to coexist with evil. Rather, "Pinchas son of Elazar son of Aharon the Kohen saw [the Jewish leader flaunting his immorality with the Midianite princess], and he arose from the midst of the congregation, taking a javelin in his hand. He came after the man of Israel to the tent, and he pierced both of them - the man of Israel and the woman, through her stomach; and the plague was stopped from the Children of Israel." (Numbers 25:8) Now, there is much discussion regarding Pinchas' halachic authority to kill these two people - one, a leader of Israel; the other, a Midianite princess. To be sure, had he asked a Beit Din (a rabbinic court), they would have forbidden him to kill them: cohabiting in public is not a sin that carries a death penalty by court of law. More than that, had Zimri son of Salu, the Israelite leader in question, killed Pinchas in self-defence, he would have been justified in court. But it was a desperate situation, with Pinchas acting purely for the sake of Heaven; God Himself justified Pinchas. The Targum Yonatan (Numbers 25:8) synthesises several Midrashic sources: "Twelve miracles were wrought for Pinchas.... The first miracle was that he should have separated them but they remained together; the second miracle was that their mouths were sealed up and they could not shout, because had they shouted they would have been rescued; the third miracle was that when he aimed his javelin he pierced them together, both in their sexual organs; the fourth miracle was that the javelin remained firm in the wound that it had made; the fifth miracle was that when he lifted them high, the lintel [of the tent-entrance] was elevated so he could carry them out; the sixth miracle was that he carried them throughout the Israelite camp, six parsot [about 16 miles/26 km] without getting tired; the seventh miracle was that he carried them aloft in his right hand [his fighting hand, which should have left him vulnerable] in the sight of all his relatives, and they were unable to harm him; the eighth miracle was that the wooden handle of the javelin was strengthened and did not break under the weight; the ninth miracle was that the blade became precisely the length of them both and did not exit; the tenth miracle was that an angel came and switched them around, putting the woman beneath and the man above, so that the whole House of Israel would see their disgrace; the eleventh miracle was that they were preserved alive for as long as it took him to parade them throughout the camp, so that no kohen's tent would contract the ritual uncleanness of a dead body; the twelfth miracle was that their blood congealed and did not drip upon him when he carried them through the camp." Under these peculiar circumstances, Pinchas had to act alone, without guidance, on a spur-of-the-moment decision. And he also had to have his action ratified in public by God Himself. By acting as he did when he did, Pinchas prevented the plague spreading any further - that is, he saved the rest of the nation from death; this was the reason that he was granted the covenant of eternal Kehunah, the covenant of peace. It was surely a terribly demoralising experience to live through: after winning military victory in wars over the king of Arad, the Amorites and Bashan (Chapter 21), and spiritual victory over Balak and Balaam, now to have 24,000 dead in a plague. But two facts stand out. One is that this was the last disaster that would befall Israel in the desert. Apart from Moshe himself, no Jew would die before entering the Land of Israel just several weeks later. Though they did not yet know it, those who survived this tragedy were on the verge of redemption; they would see no more death before arriving in Israel. And the other is that in spite of all, national life continued without a break. God immediately told Moshe to publicly appoint Joshua as his successor (27:18-23), and immediately after that continued by giving the mitzvot of sacrifices (Chapter 28) and of the Festivals (Chapter 29). Leaders of Israel who flaunt their immorality, who glorify in their love of enemy nations and the enemy nations' love for them, can indeed bring tragedy on Israel. They do indeed demoralise the entire nation. But we, standing at the very threshold of redemption, can never know what will happen between now and the final deliverance. Maybe, indeed, this is the last tragedy that we will have to undergo; maybe, indeed, we will see no more death until the final Redemption comes. But in any event, the Jewish response to any bad situation, no matter how gloomy, no matter how demoralising, is to combat evil and evil-doers, even - no, especially - when those evil-doers are leaders of Israel. And, even in the gloomiest of circumstances, to continue to fulfil the mitzvot. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/781dfe9f/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 17 07:01:29 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Peek at the Preface to Restoring Abrahamic Faith In-Reply-To: <09F89CDC-CFA0-4A01-9E49-8980DCF00889@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <877031.99476.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> James, ? I read The Jesus Dynasty. I look forward to reading this one also. Blessings, ? Tracy ? --- On Wed, 7/16/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] A Peek at the Preface to Restoring Abrahamic Faith To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 10:51 PM Here is the Preface to my new little book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith. If you have not pre-ordered I invite you to do so as I am paying for the first printing with orders from "fans" like some of you...After that things should recycle and perpetuate themselves... I wrote this for the wide general public. I hope it provides an entre for many thousands to look again at the Hebrew faith, which was in fact the faith of Jesus of Nazareth. Go to genesis2000.org to order on-ine or by check... James Tabor Preface ? I began thinking seriously about the contents of this book back in the late 1960s. I had graduated from college with majors in Greek and Bible, fired by a passion for discovering the historical Jesus. It was that Quest that led me to the insights and concepts represented herein. The more I learned about Jesus the more I realized how vital it was to see him as a Jew who put his faith in the God of Abraham, who upheld the Torah, and who lived and died for his ancestral faith. As a Christian I had grown up with a strong emphasis on the New Testament. The ?Old Testament,? as we called it, was looked on as mere ?background? to the superceding revelation brought by Jesus and the apostle Paul. I had never taken the ?Jewishness? of Jesus very seriously?at least not in terms of its implications. I presented the results of my forty years of academic work on the historical Jesus in a previous book, The Jesus Dynasty (Simon & Schuster, 2006). This book goes quite a few steps beyond. It is a personal manifesto of my own biblical faith, informed by my historical work, while at the same time moving outside its strict academic parameters.? I am enamored with the Hebrew Bible?Torah, Prophets, and Writings?and it has riveted me like nothing else over these many years. In its pages I find compelling testimony to the experiences of those who have sought to ?walk with God,? and a program of hope for our troubled planet. The idea and the ideal of the Kingdom of God?that is, God?s will being done on earth as in heaven, is one that beckons us across the ages. This book is about that ancient Hebrew faith and what it might mean to us in the 21st century. Pentecost, June 15, 2008 Mevasseret Zion, Israel _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/2e354a72/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 07:21:34 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:21:34 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Infamy' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We just wtched a movie about that last night; "Against All Odds." It was interesting. Amber On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:36 PM, wrote: > *Infamy > * > By > > Naomi Ragen > > I was a new oleh when the PFLP and two Germans hijacked a plane > full of Israelis to Entebbe. I remember well those nail-biting > days, the moral dilemma of freeing dangerous terrorists for live > hostages; the idea that negotiations would just lead to more > hijackings. But what other choice did we have? After all, they > were in Uganda, so far away . > > We found a way. > > I will never forget the morning of July 4, 1976, waking up to the > news. Our soldiers had gone in, at great personal risk. They had > saved almost everyone, and killed the terrorists. We were not > helpless victims anymore, the Jews. No, we were clever, and > resourceful and courageous. We showed the world how to behave. > We led the way. > > I wake up this morning of July 16, 2008 with quite another > feeling. Our soldiers, kidnapped on our own land, not across any > international border, are brought back to us in caskets after two > years of sadistic playfulness with the hearts of their families > by Hezbollah terrorists, who led us to believe they were alive. > And in exchange for dead bodies, we turn over a despicable > baby-killer, Sami Kuntar. > > Oh, you will hear the boosters of the Israeli government sigh. > What can we do? We are civilized and they are not. We care > about our soldiers and their families. > > No, I'm afraid you do not. If you cared, then you would have a > death penalty for people like Kuntar, so that they too can be > released in caskets. And if you cared, you would be intelligent > enough, seeing our soldiers brought back to us dead, to have put > a bullet through Kuntar and then turned him over to his friends. > > Civilized is a euphemism for weak and helpless. Civilized is not > a moral value, because we all know what Western civilization is > capable of. Concentration camps. Civilian round-ups, the gassing > of children. All this under the banner of laws and policemen and > governments. On the other hand, the moral thing to do to a tried > and convicted murderer like Kuntar is to spill his blood, because > he has spilled the blood of others. That may not fit in with > current civilized niceties, but let no one say it is immoral. > > When it comes to immoral, to release Kuntar to a hero's welcome > and the opportunity to murder others is on the top of the scale. > > My government, the Israeli government, arranged this. They let > it happen. They oversaw it and implemented it. > > I am deeply ashamed to be an Israeli today. And I'm not very > proud of being a Jew either, if this is how a Jewish country > behaves. To lead the world in ever more despicable acts of > appeasement is nothing to be proud of. The torch we always > carried, the "light unto the nations" has been blown out by the > hot-air of our politicians. > > If we cared about our soldiers, we would not be showing our > enemies that kidnapping and terrorism pay. We would not be > setting the stage for the next murderous terrorist raid and > hostage standoff. We would be passing laws with a mandatory > death penalty for convicted terrorists with blood on their hands, > as well as their accomplices. We would be making these laws > retroactive. Then, we would be cutting off all water and > electricity to Gaza until Gilad Shalit is released. If that > didn't work, we'd begin executions within one week, increasing > the number convicted terrorists facing firing squads with each > passing day until Gilad is returned to us safe and sound. And if > that didn't work, we would begin daily bombings of Gaza, with the > same number and frequency of attacks that our own city Sderot has > suffered over the past three years from the Gazans. Not > civilized? Perhaps. But moral. Extremely moral. > > My fantasy is that Israelis will rise up and overturn the > political system which has left them with the dregs of their > nation as leaders- a bunch of self-serving crooks and syncophants > who will do anything to stay in office; an electoral system in > which a party like Kadima, with its collection of felons and > moral imbeciles , who got only 23% of the vote, is allowed to > rule us into the ground. We have Mr. Olmert, and Ms. Livni, and > Mr. Peres, and Mr. Ramon (a convicted sex offender, who is now > in line to take over from Olmert) and many, many others to thank, > for creating this day of infamy. > > May G-d redeem us from them. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in > your area - Check out TourTracker.com > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/0b09cb52/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 17 07:51:01 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:51:01 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Peek at the Preface to Restoring Abrahamic Faith In-Reply-To: <071720080443.6747.487ECDF5000761C200001A5B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <071720080443.6747.487ECDF5000761C200001A5B22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <24E647E0-2A04-4880-85EF-1C1DC8B7230C@earthlink.net> "Soon," as they say in the publishing business. It was slated for late July but there have been some glitches with paper shipments and other arrangements. I will keep everyone informed and I trust it will be worth the wait. In the meantime it is looking beautiful in both "body" and "soul." The book is considerably revised (and improved!) over the 1993 version that you and others have seen and which I am no longer circulating. I think you will find reading it again will be a new experience. James On Jul 17, 2008, at 12:43 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > I'm gonna read it again when I get mine. When do you think it will > be released James. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from James Tabor >: -------------- > > Here is the Preface to my new little book, Restoring Abrahamic > Faith. If you have not pre-ordered I invite you to do so as I am > paying for the first printing with orders from "fans" like some of > you...After that things should recycle and perpetuate themselves... > > I wrote this for the wide general public. I hope it provides an > entre for many thousands to look again at the Hebrew faith, which > was in fact the faith of Jesus of Nazareth. > > Go to genesis2000.org to order on-ine or by check... > > James Tabor > > Preface > > I began thinking seriously about the contents of this book back in > the late 1960s. I had graduated from college with majors in Greek > and Bible, fired by a passion for discovering the historical Jesus. > It was that Quest that led me to the insights and concepts > represented herein. The more I learned about Jesus the more I > realized how vital it was to see him as a Jew who put his faith in > the God of Abraham, who upheld the Torah, and who lived and died for > his ancestral faith. > > As a Christian I had grown up with a strong emphasis on the New > Testament. The ?Old Testament,? as we called it, was looked on as > mere ?background? to the superceding revelation brought by Jesus and > the apostle Paul. I had never taken the ?Jewishness? of Jesus very > seriously?at least not in terms of its implications. > > I presented the results of my forty years of academic work on the > historical Jesus in a previous book, The Jesus Dynasty (Simon & > Schuster, 2006). This book goes quite a few steps beyond. It is a > personal manifesto of my own biblical faith, informed by my > historical work, while at the same time moving outside its strict > academic parameters. > > I am enamored with the Hebrew Bible?Torah, Prophets, and Writings? > and it has riveted me like nothing else over these many years. In > its pages I find compelling testimony to the experiences of those > who have sought to ?walk with God,? and a program of hope for our > troubled planet. The idea and the ideal of the Kingdom of God?that > is, God?s will being done on earth as in heaven, is one that beckons > us across the ages. This book is about that ancient Hebrew faith and > what it might mean to us in the 21st century. > > Pentecost, June 15, 2008 > Mevasseret Zion, Israel > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/87dc3c13/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 17 18:44:15 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:44:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A pasuk (verse) that I keep thinking about... Message-ID: <8CAB67E27E573CE-808-773@WEBMAIL-MA06.sysops.aol.com> "And Shimshon called to the L-rd, and said O L-rd G-d, remember me, I pray thee and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O G-d that I may be avenged on the Pelishtim for one of my two eyes." ?????????????????????? Shofetim/Judges 16:28 ??????????? Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/2ba9b03a/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 21:30:23 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:30:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel In-Reply-To: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> References: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks for this link. We watched it tonight and it was very powerful. Thanks for the new perspective. Chris and Amber Fordham On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 5:56 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Chaverim, > > If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link pertaining to > the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful teacher. I hope it will > help us to see this very complex issue from a different perspective. For > those who are Jewish , it is still a very welcomed reminder . > > *Shalom v' Ahavah. > JOE. > *http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/c39e1537/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jul 17 21:32:20 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:32:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Crisis In Israel In-Reply-To: <2F15F2BC-B569-4098-BB7E-0C68A765A767@earthlink.net> References: <487A7A18.8000106@westnet.com.au> <2F15F2BC-B569-4098-BB7E-0C68A765A767@earthlink.net> Message-ID: James: Thank you for this link. We watched it tonight and it was very interesting and informative. Chris and Amber Fordham On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:16 PM, James Tabor wrote: > Dear Joe, > I watched this one and went to the TorahOhr site. > > You might have mentioned this before but the video there on Gog & Magog I > thought was really interesting and well done. > > http://www.torahohr.net/showVideo.php?vid=32 > > James > > > On Jul 13, 2008, at 5:56 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > Shalom Chaverim, > > If you have an hour , please take the time to watch this link pertaining to > the Jewish eschatology. Rabbi Kin is a very powerful teacher. I hope it will > help us to see this very complex issue from a different perspective. For > those who are Jewish , it is still a very welcomed reminder . > > *Shalom v' Ahavah. > JOE. > *http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1812531283406438604&hl=en > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080717/08379586/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jul 18 01:07:29 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:07:29 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] What Really Happened In The Middle East - Terrorism Awareness Project Message-ID: <48803321.1050303@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/ca8f4d9b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jul 18 01:10:53 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:10:53 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Gad Elbaz - Al NArot Bavel Message-ID: <488033ED.1000706@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/252d86d6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 18 05:29:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:29:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Pinchas by Rav Binny Message-ID: Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality by Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Pinchas (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001m50Of6n84I6rOwmeYckI9JPgm2yBXP-uKtuZeLA44P1WYZGPqB6agqdbgu0oO1G9VfdevURKKJeeVoPNZT3EcA0aLjn7L9wLUYEcFWz59J2wolFeWGrWOB9a_gyEwll FUqOB0gdWoA28dLX4T8QEDr4HsI0ag1q8) Nineteen hundred and thirty-eight years ago, this week, the end finally began. After two and half years of siege, the Roman Legions broke through the ancient walls of Jerusalem, and began their savage rampage of pillage and looting through the streets of Jerusalem. Although the walk from the city walls to the Temple mount is a short ten minute stroll, it would take the Romans three weeks to actually set fire to the Temple and end the battle for Jerusalem. Amidst the fire and destruction, Rav Yochanan Ben Zakkai smuggled himself out of the city, realizing the war was lost, preferring to begin the long and tortuous process of assuring the Jewish people's survival in the exile. Nineteen hundred years later, the Jews of Jerusalem again faced that most awful of challenges: to stay and fight, or leave and live to fight another day. In her book, Forever My Jerusalem, Puah Shteiner describes the awful moment as a child, when her parents decided they could no longer risk their children's lives for the sake of their own ideals. Perhaps they too saw the writing on the wall. Surrounded by tens of thousands of Arabs, the two hundred Jewish fighters, defending fourteen hundred civilians inside the Old City, were in desperate straits. Outmanned, outgunned, and completely surrounded, it no longer seemed a matter of whether; it was only a matter of when. On the 28th of May, in 1948, just two weeks after the declaration of the State of Israel, the Jewish Quarter finally surrendered, and as the Jewish community was led out of the Old City, Rav Goetz, (who would one day return to become the rabbi of the Kotel), turned and saw the beautiful Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue in flames. Falling to the ground in agony he cried out the age-old adage: "If I forget thee Oh Jerusalem, let my right arm wither...." And for nineteen years again, the Old City walls mourned her Jews, who could not come home. Today, two thousand years later, Jewish children once again play and laugh amidst the walls of a rebuilt Jewish Quarter, and one wonders how it is that we have merited this miraculous return. Perhaps it is because the Jewish people's longing for Jerusalem and the land of Israel has never been about land and acquisition. Perhaps there is something much deeper at the heart of it all.... **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/161c86d8/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jul 18 08:03:30 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:03:30 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] EDOMITES IN JEWISH CLOTHING Message-ID: In the day of infamy a shameful thing occurred, and it makes one wonder if history is repeating itself. One must turn back the clock to when John Hyrcanus the Maccabee forced Judaism on the Edomites which lead to Herod the Great an Edomite to be thrust into the highest office in Judea. In one sense it can be said that Herod was an Edomite in Jewish clothing. Without going into all of the history it seems the leadership that won the wars from 1948, and between the great war of 1967 and so forth has given way to a new breed. And with Olmart one must wonder if he might be a Edomite in Jewish clothing. If so and if we are in the times I think we are we might find G-D doing a shakeup in Israel on the highest level. In research and study Gary Arvidson and I were lead to sort out fulfilled prophecy from future events which required a great deal of study in the Antiquities and Wars of the Jews Could history be repeating itself and once again we have an Edomite in Jewish clothing occupying the higest office in Israel?. I only present this for your consideration to think about Jewish history and the terrible mistake of John Hyrcanus in forcing the Edomites into conversion, and terrible was the day and what it brought upon the Jewish nations. Could history be repeating itself and once again we have Edomites in Jewish clothing in opposition to the G-D of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Think about it my friends. Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/804c04a9/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 12:47:48 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:47:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: REVIEW ANSWERS - Sanhedrin, Daf 82 - Sent Using Google Toolbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: calb fordham Date: Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:40 PM Subject: REVIEW ANSWERS - Sanhedrin, Daf 82 - Sent Using Google Toolbar To: Chris and Amber *REVIEW ANSWERS - Sanhedrin, Daf 82* (Permission is granted to print and redistribute this material as long as this header and the footer at the end are included.) ------------------------------ ANSWERS TO REVIEW QUESTIONS prepared by Rabbi Eliezer Chrysler Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Jerusalem ------------------------------ Previous daf *Sanhedrin 82* Questions 1) (a) Initially, when Rav Kahana asked Rav what punishment was due to a Bo'el Aramis who was not killed by a zealous person - he could not recall the answer. (b) He remembered however, following a dream that Rav Kahana related to him, based on a Pasuk in Mal'achi. "Bagdah Yehudah" he said, referred to Avodah-Zarah. He interpreted ... 1. ... "ve'So'evah Ne'es'sah be'Yisrael ... " - as homosexuality. 2. ... "Ki Chilel Yehudah es K'dosh Hashem" - as prostitution. 3. ... "u'Ba'al Bas Keil Neichar" - as having relations with a Nochris. (c) And the Pasuk concludes "Yachris Hashem la'Ish Asher Ya'asenah ... ". Rav interprets the words ... 1. ... "Er ve'Onah be'Ohalei Ya'akov" - as pertaining to a sinner who is a Talmid-Chacham, and who will leave no children or grandchildren who are Talmidei-Chachamim. 2. ... "u'Magish Minchah la'Hashem Tzevakos" - as pertaining to a sinner who is a Kohen, and who will leave no children or grandchildren who will bring a Minchah to Hashem (i.e. who will serve in the Beis-Hamikdah). 2) (a) Rebbi Chiya bar Avuyah ... 1. ... extrapolates from the Pasuk "u'Ba'al bas Keil Neichar" - that if someone who has relations with a Nochris, it is as if he had married a foreign god (because otherwise, gods don't have daughters. 2. ... says - that the skull of Yehoyakim was left lying at the gates of Yerushalayim, an on it was written 'Od ve'Zos Acheres' (This and another one). (b) When Rebbi P'reida's grandfather once came across it - he tried twice to bury it, but each time the earth rejected it; so he concluded that it must be the skull of Yehoyakim, about which the Navi Yirmiyah prophesied 'Kevuras Chamor Yikaver' (and dead donkeys tended to be left lying in the streets in those days). (c) What prompted ... 1. ... him to wrap it in silks and place it in a box - was the fact that it was not Kavod for a king's skull to be left lying in the open like that. 2. ... his wife to burn it - was the neighbor's comments that it must be the skull of Rebbi P'reida's first wife, whom he could not forget. (d) Rebbi P'reida's grandfather's final words on the subject were - that the prophetic words 'Zos ve'Od Achares' written on the skull had now been fulfilled. 3) (a) When Rav Dimi arrived from Eretz Yisrael, he stated that it was the Beis-Din of the Chashmona'im who decreed on 'Nashga' - the acronym of Nidah, Shifchah, Goyah, Eishes Ish. (b) In this context, we must interpret ... 1. ... 'Nidah" to mean - that even though Halachically, there is no such thing as Nidah by Nochrim, the fact that she is technically a Nidah is a desecration of Kedushas Yisrael. 2. ... 'Shifchah' - that Yisrael are considered the master nation, and the Nochrim, like a Shifchah. 3. ... 'Eishes Ish' - that (like we just explained by Nidah) Chazal took into account the fact that it resembles Eishes Ish, even though, min ha'Torah, 'Eishes Ish' does not pertain to them, only 'Be'ulas Ba'al'. (c) And when Ravin arrived, he presented it as 'Nashgaz'. The 'Zayin' stands for - Zonah. (d) The reason that ... 1. ... Ravin rejects Rav Dimi's version is - because, as we jut explained, there is no Ishus by Nochrim (and neither did the Rabbanan institute it, in his opinion). 2. ... Rav Dimi rejects Ravin's is - because Nochrim do not tend to make their wives Hefker. 4) (a) Rav Chisda rules that if someone asks a Rav whether he may go ahead and kill a Bo'el Aramis - he is told that he may not (in other words, the concession only applies to someone who acts spontaneously). (b) Rabah bar bar Chanah Amar Rebbi Yochanan says the same thing, adding that had Zimri ... 1. ... separated from Kozbi - and Pinchas would have then killed him, he would have been Chayav Miysah (because the concession to kill them only applies whilst they are actually involved in the act). 2. ... had turned round and killed Pinchas (in self-defense) -he would have been Patur. (c) What prompted Zimri to do what he did - was his tribe (Shimon)'s request, that the judges appointed by Moshe were beginning to kill the sinners (mainly from Shimon), and that he should intervene on their behalf. (d) So obliged by taking twenty-four thousand people with him, and accosting Kozbi. 5) (a) When Zimri accosted her Kozbi she initially declined on the basis of her father's instructions to go for Yisrael's leader (Moshe), exclusively. (b) Zimri's responded - by pointing out that not only was he also a leader of a tribe (Shelumiel ben Tzurishaday, the Nasi of Shimon), but that his greatgrandfather Shimon (the second-born of Ya'akov) was senior to Levi, Moshe's greatgrandfather (who was Only the third-born). (c) He then - grabbed Kozbi by the hair and took her before Moshe, whom he asked whether she was permitted or not, and if not, who had then allowed him to marry a daughter of Yisro (also from Midyan). (d) Moshe and the men who were with him reacted - by weeping. He did not do what Pinchas did - because he forgot the Halachah. 6) (a) Moshe forgot the Halachah, but Pinchas remembered, as Rav informs us, quoting the Pasuk "va'Yar Pinchas ben Elazar" ('Ra'ah Ma'aseh, ve'Nizkar Halachah'). (b) He reminded Moshe that, when he came down from Har Sinai - he had taught them 'ha'Bo'el es ha'Kutis, Kana'in Pog'in Bo'. (c) When he referred to 'Achi Avi Aba', he referred to Moshe (his grandfather Aharon's brother). (d) Moshe's famous reply was - 'Karyana de'Igresa Iyhu Lehavi Parvanka' ('The one who reads the letter is the one who should carry out its instructions'). 7) (a) When, to explain "va'Yar Pinchas", Shmuel quotes the dictum "Ein Chochmah, ve'Ein Tevunah ve'Eitzah Neged Hashem", he means - that Pinchas recalled the Halachah that when there is a Chilul Hashem, it is not the time to give honor to one's Rebbe, but to act, which explains why Pinchas went ahead and killed Zimri and Kozbi, and did not wait for Mosha to do it. (b) According to Rebbi Yitzchak Amar Rebbi Elazar, he saw a Mal'ach - who began killing the people. He then removed the metal from the tip of the wooden spear - to hide his true intentions from the B'nei Shimon (as we will now see). (c) We learn from the words "va'Yikach Romach be'Yado" - that it is forbidden to enter the Beis-Hamedrash (from where he now set out on his mission). (d) To gain entry into the tent where Zimri and Kozbi were, he complained to the B'nei Shimon - that he did not see why the B'nei Shimon were greater than the B'nei Levi (his tribe [i.e. why *they* should have all the fun, whilst his tribe practiced restraint]). (e) The B'nei Shimon responded with the words - 'Let him enter. The Tzadikim have permitted it!') *82b---------------------------------------82b* Questions 8) (a) Six miracles occurred with Pinchas. (b) The first miracle was that Zimri did not separate from Kozbi (which would have forbidden Pinchas to take any action). Zimri might have also called out for help, but miraculously did not? (c) The third miracle was that Pinchas (who was not an experienced swordsman) pierced Zimri and Kozbi in exactly the right spot, and the fourth miracle was as he picked them up, they did not slide off the sword (to show the people that he killed them for their sin, and not for any personal reason). (d) The miracle that occurred ... 1. ... as he carried them through the tent entrance was - that an angel raised the lintel for Pinchas to carry them through without having to bend down. 2. ... after that was - that another angel began killing the B'nei Shimon, to keep them occupied looking after their dead, leaving them no time to kill Pinchas for having killed their Nasi. 9) (a) When depositing them in front of Hashem, Pinchas declared 'What, for these, twenty-four thousand of Yisrael had to die'? (b) According to Rebbi Elazar, the Pasuk writes "va'Ya'amod Pinchas va'Yefalel", and not va'Yispalel" - to hint that his prayers achieved wonders (from the word 'Pela'os'), as we shall now see. (c) As a result of his prayers ... 1. ... Hashem answered the Angels, who wanted to kill him for his brazenness - that he had inherited his zealousness from his ancestor Levi (who, together with his brother Shimon, had killed the town of Sh'chem in their zealousness for their daughter. But he was also an averter of anger the grandson of an averter of anger (Aharon who, like Pinchas, stopped a plague [with the Ketores]). 2. ... the Torah answered the tribes (who accused him of acting brashly because he was the grandson of 'Puti', alias Putiel, Yisro - who had fattened calves for Avodah-Zarah), by referring to him as Pinchas ben Aharon ben ha'Kohen (who represented Yisrael before Hashem). (d) For having atoned for K'lal Yisrael - Pinchas was rewarded with a. a covenant of peace; b. with everlasting Kehunah. 10) (a) Rav Nachman Amar Rav explains the significance of the four hundred and twenty four Be'ilos that Zimri made with Kozbi - in that they made him weak, rendering him incapable of retaliating (though this would weaken the first two miracles which we discussed earlier). The connection with the Pasuk "Zarzir Mosnayim O Tayash" is - that the numerical value of "Zarzir" is four hundred and twenty four (see Agados Maharsha). (b) The continuation "u'Melech Alkom Imo" means - that Hashem (who is called 'Melech Alkom) was on his side, and had he known that, he would not have needed to wait for Zimri to become weak. (c) The Beraisa disagrees. According to the Tana - Zimri had sixty Be'ilos with Kozbi. (d) When the Tana says 'Ad she'Na'aseh ke'Beitzah (or ke'Beitzim) ha'Muzeres' - he means that his testicles because soft like scrambled eggs from the vast amount of seed and the many Be'ilos. (e) And he also described him as a row (of plants) full of water. 11) (a) Rav Kahana describes the place where they lay as being sixty Amos. Rav Yosef quoting a Beraisa, describes her womb - as being sixty Amos long (though it is not clear what these measurements mean). (b) Although, as Rav Sheishes says, Kozbi's real name was Sh'vilna'i, the Torah nevertheless calls her 'Kozbi' - because she let down father (who had ordered her to go for Moshe exclusively, as we explained earlier). (c) Others say that Kozbi is the acronym of 'Kus Bi Am Zeh', which means - 'Destroy this nation through me'. (d) And the meaning of ... 1. ... the saying 'What is Sh'vilna'i doing between the canes and the willows', or 'among the canes' means -that it is a secluded place, and that one can therefore assume that she is there, in order to commit adultery. 2. ... 'Gafsah le'Imah' means - that by virtue of the fact that people tend to refer to a Zonah (a harlot) as a 'Zonah bas Zonah', she is branding her mother as being a Zonah. 12) (a) Zimri actually had five names. We have already explained that his real name was 'Sh'lumiel ... ' and 'Zimri' because 'she'Na'aseh ke'Beitzah ha'Muzeres'. He was called 'ben Salu' - because he either caused the people to describe his family as a sinful one or he caused Hashem to examine their sins. (b) He was also called 'Shaul' because he lent himself out for sin. And he was called 'ben ha'Cana'anis' - because he behaved like the Cana'anim (who were a highly immoral nation). 13) (a) When Rav Acha bar Huna asked Rav Sheishes whether a Kohen who served be'Tum'ah is Chayav Miysah or not, he resolved the She'eilah from our Mishnah - Kohen she'Shimesh be'Tum'ah, Ein Echav ha'Kohanim Mevi'in Oso le'Beis-Din ... ', and if he was Chayav Miysah, why not just leave the sinner to die at the at the hand of Hashem? (b) We counter this argument however - by suggesting that if he was not Chayav Miysah, how could we allow the Kohanim to kill him (the exact opposite viewpoint [as we argued earlier])? (c) We reconcile this theory with our Mishnah which rules ... 1. ... 'Mi she'Lakah ve'Shanah, Beis-Din Machnisin Oso le'Kipah' (even though no Chiyuv Miysah is mentioned here) - by reestablishing the Mishnah like Rebbi Yirmiyah Amar Resh Lakish, by Malkiyos of Chayvei Kerisus. 2. ... 'Gonev es ha'Kisva' - by reestablishing it by someone who steals a 'K'li Shareis', like Rav Yehudah (as we learned earlier). 3. ... 'ha'Mekalel es ha'Kosem' because of its similarity to Mevarech es Hashem (as Tani Rav Yosef taught us earlier). 4. ... 'Bo'el es ha'Kutis' - because, as we learned above, Rav accepted Rav Kahana's dream, that a Kohen she'Shimesh be'Tum'ah is indeed Chayav Miysah bi'Yedei Shamayim. Next daf Index ------------------------------ For further information on subscriptions, archives and sponsorships, contact Kollel Iyun Hadaf, daf at shemayisrael.co.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/de23c75a/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jul 19 20:41:50 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:41:50 -0500 Subject: Cornie[Dialogue] Be still and know that I am G-d... In-Reply-To: <02d101c8bfc7$e15636e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <02d101c8bfc7$e15636e0$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <488297DE.1060009@gninc.ca> Shabat Shalom Betty I am going back a long way, I have not deleted the dialogue articles from way back in the end of May. Yes I know what tough times is like. Yet now that I have read glimpses of what you are experiencing financially, I forget, did you lose your house in a flood? What ever it is, but it seems to me you have to struggle financially because of that. We too had to give up our place because of a flood in the Red river area, here in Manitoba Canada. That is about 10 years ago. But we got back more through the deal than we could have got selling it before the flood. My struggles financially are my own fault, caused by me trying to pay off some debt by network marketing, only to lose more by doing so. This humbled me to such a low ebb, and even to experience a slight stroke a year ago since 2 days ago, likely as a result. That was a tough time of it, for which I likely pitied myself. As I was already seen as as a black sheep by the church my whole family is still adhering to. And I wanted to be a true example of a bright light coming to the rescue of my family from the darkness of Christianity. But to humble myself is what I likely needed the most. But Baruch HaShem, He has been so good to me, I am in good health now, some times working full time. And am paying off my Credit Card debt quite fast. But of all things that are so uplifting nothing excels what the Rabbi's teach me, concerning emuna, especially from that coming from Rabbi Lazer Brody. I realized I had much to learn when I listened to a New CD titled "Azamra" translated by Lazer Brody. Here is what you read on the CD label. "People suffer because they fail to realize all their own good points. To believe in HaShem, we must first believe in ourselves. This CD is a master key to happiness." I don't think you will need this like myself. But this group has been a real lift to me too in many ways already. I had fought so hard against Christianity in my own heart, that a crust of knowing better than many around me. That crust was badly in need of getting tuned in to learning to share with people our faith, even though we don't see things all eye to eye. Through the experiences of some of it I realized the great need for me to get humbled when I direly needed it. I think I owe to some of the group questions that have gone unanswered. I am sorry for that. I was likely making my life unnecessary hard, and too busy to concentrate, till a brother in the group finally came to my rescue, Baruch Hashem. This also effects keeping the Sabbath holy. I had let myself be influenced by Jews, that none Jews should not keep the Sabbath or wear the prayer shawl etc. I had drifted away from Hashem, by listening to these Jewish people that even meant it well, but likely were partly assimilated to Christian idea's too. Shabbat Shalom, and thank you for your kind words. May Hashem lead you and bless you through any difficult times you go through. Cornie Betty Givin wrote: > > Dear Cornie, > > > > Thank you so much for you kind and caring words of encouragement which > came at a much needed time for me. It means so very much. Sometimes, > life is just plain tough, but that is when the "tough get going," > right? (quote from the late Robert Schuler) From your posts, it is > obvious that you are no stranger to difficult times, and that is what > no doubt has molded you into the wonderful caring soul that you have > become. I am so glad that you found our dialogue group and decided to > join us. You add a special spirit of love and humility. > > > > May HaShem bless you and keep you as well, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Monday, May 26, 2008 9:35 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Be still and know that I am G-d... > > > > Hi Betty > I was checking and deleting old e-mails and found yours here. I am > reading your letters with interest. And want to thank you for your > kind words welcoming me a while back to the dialogue. I notice that in > spite of likely hardships, you do have a song in your heart, that does > not matter if people understand you or not, you just keep on "fideling > along"! I have great respect for people like you. You have something > of great price in your heart that you may think is hidden to others, > but it is shining out clear and true. > > I don't know if you are simply relating to being so busy, or relating > to memories of your mother. Or other heart aches even. I wish I could > relate or even know a little of my mother. I was 5 and had chicken pox > when she passed away, far to young. All I remember of her was one day > when we children were happily playing outside, I saw my mother > standing in the doorway watching us playing. But she was crying, I > could not understand it! Why would she cry? After she was gone from us > one evening the Uncles and Aunts were at our place deciding where we > children would go, divided up, and going from place to place for the > next 5 years. Of course I was oblivious to what was going on. Than I > saw lights coming on the yard, and a beam of hope came into my heart, > is mother coming home!!!! But that hope had to be smothered many a > time. I could not understand it than, but I think I can understand it > better now. There was a reason and it was all in the Great Potters > plan! He had a great plan, of course we are often quite oblivious to > it at the time. I don't know if I understand any of your pain, but I > know of some. Could we say without pain there is no gain? > May HaShem bless you and keep you. > > Cornie > > > Betty Givin wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > I just wanted to let you know that I have reached a point in my life > when I cannot continue to be as active as I have been on the list. At > this point, I honestly don't know what that means except that I am > having to force myself to make this choice right now...I always seem > to think that I can take on more than I actually can accomplish; and > for the past few months, I have been burning the candle at both ends > and as a result have been meeting myself coming and going. > > > > Here is where I would like to stand up on a rooftop, balance > precariously on the ridge like the Fiddler on the Roof , play my > fiddle and sing with Tevia, ' If I Were a Rich Man' and > then.../poof/...have my dream come true (wouldn't we all?) But the > first thing that would happen is that I would fall off the roof and > smash my fiddle to smithereens! > > > > Without going into a lot of detail, let me just say that my physical > exhaustion is starting to take an emotional toll on me, and I can feel > that the spiritual toll will be coming next unless I "quiet" myself > for awhile. I love these discussions, but just cannot participate as > I would like...my head is spinning and it feels like my life is > spinning uncontrollably around me... > > > > I have been feeling this way for quite some time and have been > fighting writing a post such as this because I really don't want to > drop off the list, even for a little while, and I haven't know how > much to say or how to explain...just a few minutes ago, when I decided > to write this post, the verse from Psalms 46:10 came to mind..."Be > still and know that I am G-d..." > > > > In addition, to be quite honest, I am not sure how much the emotions > of having to spend my first Mother's Day without my mother are coming > to play here...maybe more than I realize...I just cannot sort it all > out... > > > > You are a wonderful group of caring and loving people...all of > you...and my love reaches out to you. > > > > From my heart, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.15/1426 - Release Date: 10/05/2008 11:12 AM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 25/05/2008 6:49 PM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080719/9e2fdcbc/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jul 19 21:03:27 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:03:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] a question...significance to 7 times In-Reply-To: <033801c8bfd8$f3115660$643c66c9@bettygivin> References: <033801c8bfd8$f3115660$643c66c9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <48829CEF.5080100@gninc.ca> Hi Betty and your daughter Kim. Concerning the number seven. When I was first brought to the awareness of the Shabbat, as a Christian, but already searching for truth, I came to know the messianic movement, and did quite a study on the Shabbat. I wrote a 100 page book on "My Journey to the Sabbath" with 5 chapters. Chapter 2 is titled "The meaning of Seven! Or Sabbath! Does this have any relations to the time of the Gentiles coming to an end". I had almost forgotten about this book , but my enlisting to this dialogue group recently prompted me to re-check it and retrieve it, wondering if some of it could be salvaged. I know that some of it would need to have a total revision. But chapter 2, 25 pages, could be sent in an attachment should anyone be interested. And maybe some idea could be given to edit it for better value, according to real truth. Cornie Betty Givin wrote: > > Kim, I am not sure of this particular significance, but there is a > holiness to the number seven, as in Shabbat...and as you know, there > are all sorts of sevens in Torah. I was thinking that seven represents > completion and that it leads to the number eight which is seen as a > 'new beginning." So perhaps, the chastising for sins and the refining > seven times symbolizes a complete cleansing, leading to a new > beginning. Just guessing here. > > > > Somewhere in the back of my mind, I am thinking that seven is somehow > connected to the Nature of G-d, but I have no idea where that info > comes from? > > > > Love you, > > > > Mom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Monday, May 26, 2008 11:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] a question...significance to 7 times > > > > What do you feel is the significance to seven times? > * > Leviticus 26:28* then I will walk contrary unto you in fury; and I > also will chastise you seven times for your sins. > *Psalms 12:7* The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in > a crucible on the earth, refined seven times > > > On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:07 PM, > wrote: > > Shalom L'Kulchem, > > For those of you following the triennial cycle, you may not have > realized that on Shabbat, we read Parshat Bechukotai, which is the > very end of the Book of Vayikra (Leviticus). In my opinion, it lays > out VERY clearly what would happen to us if we choose 'A' and what > would happen to us if we chose 'B.' The difference doesn't get any > starker then this... > > "If you walk in my statutes and keep my commandments, and do them; > then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield its > increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit......" > > Vayikra 26:3-4 > > "And I will give you peace in the land, and you shall lie down and > none shall make you afraid...." > Vayikra > 26:6 > > HaShem also tells us how we will defeat our enemies, despite > staggering odds, and how HE will establish HIS covenant with us, and, > " ..I will walk among you, and will be your G-d and you shall be MY > people. I am the L-rd your G-d..." > Vayikra 26:12-13 > > And then the flip side becomes very, very clear: "But if you will not > hearken to me, and will not do all these commands: and if you shall > despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgements, sp that you > will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: I > will also do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, > consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow > of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall > eat it. And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain > before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you > shall flee when none pursues you." > > Vayikra 26: 14-17 > > The Parsha (weekly Torah portion) continues to lay out the specifics > of what will happen...and it's NOT a pretty sight....You would/ think > /that the Children of Israel would have /GOTTEN /it by then, but we > all know that's not the truth. > > As an educational tool, I do NOT believe in scare tactics, but how do > you explain to a child what HaShem is trying to teach us here? No, > I'm not talking about my own daughters, but the grandchildren of the > man that sits near me in Shul (synagogue). They were asking him, and > he seemed at a loss for what to say to them....I couldn't offer my > experiences with my girls, because they were raised in a very unusual > manner; singing songs about the Jewish freedom fighters who were hung > by the British occupation troops, and my encouraging them to get > arrested for 'Jewish causes,' is NOT a typical upbringing..... > > Your thoughts? No, not about how I raised my girls, but how to > handle an issue like this....toda! > > */ Hanoch/* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone > . > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 25/05/2008 6:49 PM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080719/cc413cb8/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jul 19 22:28:22 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:28:22 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Pinchas Message-ID: <4AC7DD00A4F045CC976624E5DA44C925@bettygivin> Hope everyone had a restful and meaningful Shabbat. I wanted to share a quote with you from Rabbi Shimson Hirsch on "peace" Peace is a precious thing for which one may sacrifice all of one's own rights and possessions, but never the rights of others and never those values that God has declared to be good and true. There can be true peace among men only if all men are at peace with God. Hence anyone who wages war on the enemies of what is good and true in the eyes of God is a champion of the brit shalom (covenant of peace) on earth even while he is engaged in war. Conversely, one who, for the sake of what he considers to be the preservation of peace with his fellow men, cedes the field without protest to individuals who are truly in conflict with God, actually makes common cause with the enemies of the brit shalom on earth. What saved the people was not the passivity of the masses, nor even the idle tears of sorrow shed at the entrance to the Tent of Appointed Meeting. It was the valiant act of Pinchas that saved the people and restored to them their peace with God and His Law, thus also restoring to them the foundation for their own true inner peace." Just thought this so applicable and so appropriate for what is going on today in Eretz Yisrael in the name of "peace." We need a Pinchas multiplied many times over, one like the brave soldier who killed the terrorist who was murdering people in the Holy City by bulldozing them down. Shavua tov to all, Elisheva/Batty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080719/4aa97c6a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jul 19 23:36:36 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 23:36:36 -0500 Subject: Cornie[Dialogue] Be still and know that I am G-d... In-Reply-To: <488297DE.1060009@gninc.ca> Message-ID: I hope you had a Shabbat Shalom, Cornie! You are a priceless jewel! Thank you so much for sharing and for your kindness and your words of encouragement towards me. Again they came at a time when I really need them. I love that heart you have for HaShem! You are a blessing to me and to all of us.and I have missed being a part of the dialoguing so very much.just have no time right now.all will be okay.I am counting on that.and with encouragement from friends like you, what more can I ask? Baruch HaShem and toda rabba! Have a wonderful week, full of blessings and may all the love you share come back to you in double portions! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Cornie[Dialogue] Be still and know that I am G-d... Shabat Shalom Betty I am going back a long way, I have not deleted the dialogue articles from way back in the end of May. Yes I know what tough times is like. Yet now that I have read glimpses of what you are experiencing financially, I forget, did you lose your house in a flood? What ever it is, but it seems to me you have to struggle financially because of that. We too had to give up our place because of a flood in the Red river area, here in Manitoba Canada. That is about 10 years ago. But we got back more through the deal than we could have got selling it before the flood. My struggles financially are my own fault, caused by me trying to pay off some debt by network marketing, only to lose more by doing so. This humbled me to such a low ebb, and even to experience a slight stroke a year ago since 2 days ago, likely as a result. That was a tough time of it, for which I likely pitied myself. As I was already seen as as a black sheep by the church my whole family is still adhering to. And I wanted to be a true example of a bright light coming to the rescue of my family from the darkness of Christianity. But to humble myself is what I likely needed the most. But Baruch HaShem, He has been so good to me, I am in good health now, some times working full time. And am paying off my Credit Card debt quite fast. But of all things that are so uplifting nothing excels what the Rabbi's teach me, concerning emuna, especially from that coming from Rabbi Lazer Brody. I realized I had much to learn when I listened to a New CD titled "Azamra" translated by Lazer Brody. Here is what you read on the CD label. "People suffer because they fail to realize all their own good points. To believe in HaShem, we must first believe in ourselves. This CD is a master key to happiness." I don't think you will need this like myself. But this group has been a real lift to me too in many ways already. I had fought so hard against Christianity in my own heart, that a crust of knowing better than many around me. That crust was badly in need of getting tuned in to learning to share with people our faith, even though we don't see things all eye to eye. Through the experiences of some of it I realized the great need for me to get humbled when I direly needed it. I think I owe to some of the group questions that have gone unanswered. I am sorry for that. I was likely making my life unnecessary hard, and too busy to concentrate, till a brother in the group finally came to my rescue, Baruch Hashem. This also effects keeping the Sabbath holy. I had let myself be influenced by Jews, that none Jews should not keep the Sabbath or wear the prayer shawl etc. I had drifted away from Hashem, by listening to these Jewish people that even meant it well, but likely were partly assimilated to Christian idea's too. Shabbat Shalom, and thank you for your kind words. May Hashem lead you and bless you through any difficult times you go through. Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Dear Cornie, Thank you so much for you kind and caring words of encouragement which came at a much needed time for me. It means so very much. Sometimes, life is just plain tough, but that is when the "tough get going," right? (quote from the late Robert Schuler) From your posts, it is obvious that you are no stranger to difficult times, and that is what no doubt has molded you into the wonderful caring soul that you have become. I am so glad that you found our dialogue group and decided to join us. You add a special spirit of love and humility. May HaShem bless you and keep you as well, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Be still and know that I am G-d... Hi Betty I was checking and deleting old e-mails and found yours here. I am reading your letters with interest. And want to thank you for your kind words welcoming me a while back to the dialogue. I notice that in spite of likely hardships, you do have a song in your heart, that does not matter if people understand you or not, you just keep on "fideling along"! I have great respect for people like you. You have something of great price in your heart that you may think is hidden to others, but it is shining out clear and true. I don't know if you are simply relating to being so busy, or relating to memories of your mother. Or other heart aches even. I wish I could relate or even know a little of my mother. I was 5 and had chicken pox when she passed away, far to young. All I remember of her was one day when we children were happily playing outside, I saw my mother standing in the doorway watching us playing. But she was crying, I could not understand it! Why would she cry? After she was gone from us one evening the Uncles and Aunts were at our place deciding where we children would go, divided up, and going from place to place for the next 5 years. Of course I was oblivious to what was going on. Than I saw lights coming on the yard, and a beam of hope came into my heart, is mother coming home!!!! But that hope had to be smothered many a time. I could not understand it than, but I think I can understand it better now. There was a reason and it was all in the Great Potters plan! He had a great plan, of course we are often quite oblivious to it at the time. I don't know if I understand any of your pain, but I know of some. Could we say without pain there is no gain? May HaShem bless you and keep you. Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Dear Friends, I just wanted to let you know that I have reached a point in my life when I cannot continue to be as active as I have been on the list. At this point, I honestly don't know what that means except that I am having to force myself to make this choice right now.I always seem to think that I can take on more than I actually can accomplish; and for the past few months, I have been burning the candle at both ends and as a result have been meeting myself coming and going. Here is where I would like to stand up on a rooftop, balance precariously on the ridge like the Fiddler on the Roof , play my fiddle and sing with Tevia, ' If I Were a Rich Man' and then.poof.have my dream come true (wouldn't we all?) But the first thing that would happen is that I would fall off the roof and smash my fiddle to smithereens! Without going into a lot of detail, let me just say that my physical exhaustion is starting to take an emotional toll on me, and I can feel that the spiritual toll will be coming next unless I "quiet" myself for awhile. I love these discussions, but just cannot participate as I would like.my head is spinning and it feels like my life is spinning uncontrollably around me. I have been feeling this way for quite some time and have been fighting writing a post such as this because I really don't want to drop off the list, even for a little while, and I haven't know how much to say or how to explain.just a few minutes ago, when I decided to write this post, the verse from Psalms 46:10 came to mind."Be still and know that I am G-d." In addition, to be quite honest, I am not sure how much the emotions of having to spend my first Mother's Day without my mother are coming to play here.maybe more than I realize.I just cannot sort it all out. You are a wonderful group of caring and loving people.all of you.and my love reaches out to you. >From my heart, Betty/Elisheva _____ _______________________________________________ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.15/1426 - Release Date: 10/05/2008 11:12 AM _____ _______________________________________________ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1466 - Release Date: 25/05/2008 6:49 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080719/e4b36e45/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 20 10:17:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:17:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Op-Ed from the NY Times Message-ID: Using Bombs to Stave Off War By BENNY MORRIS Published: July 18, 2008 Li-On, Israel _Skip to next paragraph_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/18/opinion/18morris.html?sq=friday July 18, 2008&st=nyt&scp=10&pagewanted=all#secondParagraph) _Enlarge This Image_ (javascript:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/18/opinion/18opart.ready.html', '18opart_ready', 'width=570,height=600,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes')) (javascript:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/18/opinion/18opart.ready.html', '18opart_ready', 'width=570,height=600,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes')) Tucker Nichols ISRAEL will almost surely attack Iran?s nuclear sites in the next four to seven months ? and the leaders in Washington and even Tehran should hope that the attack will be successful enough to cause at least a significant delay in the Iranian production schedule, if not complete destruction, of that country? s nuclear program. Because if the attack fails, the Middle East will almost certainly face a nuclear war ? either through a subsequent pre-emptive Israeli nuclear strike or a nuclear exchange shortly after Iran gets the bomb. It is in the interest of neither Iran nor the United States (nor, for that matter, the rest of the world) that Iran be savaged by a nuclear strike, or that both Israel and Iran suffer such a fate. We know what would ensue: a traumatic destabilization of the Middle East with resounding political and military consequences around the globe, serious injury to the West?s oil supply and radioactive pollution of the earth?s atmosphere and water. But should Israel?s conventional assault fail to significantly harm or stall the Iranian program, a ratcheting up of the Iranian-Israeli conflict to a nuclear level will most likely follow. Every intelligence agency in the world believes the Iranian program is geared toward making weapons, not to the peaceful applications of nuclear power. And, despite the current talk of additional economic sanctions, everyone knows that such measures have so far led nowhere and are unlikely to be applied with sufficient scope to cause Iran real pain, given Russia?s and China?s continued recalcitrance and Western Europe?s (and America?s) ambivalence in behavior, if not in rhetoric. Western intelligence agencies agree that Iran will reach the ?point of no return? in acquiring the capacity to produce nuclear weapons in one to four years. Which leaves the world with only one option if it wishes to halt Iran?s march toward nuclear weaponry: the military option, meaning an aerial assault by either the United States or Israel. Clearly, America has the conventional military capacity to do the job, which would involve a protracted air assault against Iran?s air defenses followed by strikes on the nuclear sites themselves. But, as a result of the Iraq imbroglio, and what is rapidly turning into the Afghan imbroglio, the American public has little enthusiasm for wars in the Islamic lands. This curtails the White House?s ability to begin yet another major military campaign in pursuit of a goal that is not seen as a vital national interest by many Americans. Which leaves only Israel ? the country threatened almost daily with destruction by Iran?s leaders. Thus the recent reports about Israeli plans and preparations to attack Iran (the period from Nov. 5 to Jan. 19 seems the best bet, as it gives the West half a year to try the diplomatic route but ensures that Israel will have support from a lame-duck White House). The problem is that Israel?s military capacities are far smaller than America ?s and, given the distances involved, the fact that the Iranian sites are widely dispersed and underground, and Israel?s inadequate intelligence, it is unlikely that the Israeli conventional forces, even if allowed the use of Jordanian and Iraqi airspace (and perhaps, pending American approval, even Iraqi air strips) can destroy or perhaps significantly delay the Iranian nuclear project. Nonetheless, Israel, believing that its very existence is at stake ? and this is a feeling shared by most Israelis across the political spectrum ? will certainly make the effort. Israel?s leaders, from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert down, have all explicitly stated that an Iranian bomb means Israel?s destruction; Iran will not be allowed to get the bomb. The best outcome will be that an Israeli conventional strike, whether failed or not ? and, given the Tehran regime?s totalitarian grip, it may not be immediately clear how much damage the Israeli assault has caused ? would persuade the Iranians to halt their nuclear program, or at least persuade the Western powers to significantly increase the diplomatic and economic pressure on Iran. But the more likely result is that the international community will continue to do nothing effective and that Iran will speed up its efforts to produce the bomb that can destroy Israel. The Iranians will also likely retaliate by attacking Israel?s cities with ballistic missiles (possibly topped with chemical or biological warheads); by prodding its local clients, Hezbollah and Hamas, to unleash their own armories against Israel; and by activating international Muslim terrorist networks against Israeli and Jewish ? and possibly American ? targets worldwide (though the Iranians may at the last moment be wary of provoking American military involvement). Such a situation would confront Israeli leaders with two agonizing, dismal choices. One is to allow the Iranians to acquire the bomb and hope for the best ? meaning a nuclear standoff, with the prospect of mutual assured destruction preventing the Iranians from actually using the weapon. The other would be to use the Iranian counterstrikes as an excuse to escalate and use the only means available that will actually destroy the Iranian nuclear project: Israel? s own nuclear arsenal. Given the fundamentalist, self-sacrificial mindset of the mullahs who run Iran, Israel knows that deterrence may not work as well as it did with the comparatively rational men who ran the Kremlin and White House during the cold war. They are likely to use any bomb they build, both because of ideology and because of fear of Israeli nuclear pre-emption. Thus an Israeli nuclear strike to prevent the Iranians from taking the final steps toward getting the bomb is probable. The alternative is letting Tehran have its bomb. In either case, a Middle Eastern nuclear holocaust would be in the cards. Iran?s leaders would do well to rethink their gamble and suspend their nuclear program. Bar this, the best they could hope for is that Israel?s conventional air assault will destroy their nuclear facilities. To be sure, this would mean thousands of Iranian casualties and international humiliation. But the alternative is an Iran turned into a nuclear wasteland. Some Iranians may believe that this is a worthwhile gamble if the prospect is Israel?s demise. But most Iranians probably don?t. Benny Morris, a professor of Middle Eastern history at Ben-Gurion University, is the author, most recently, of ?1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War.? **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080720/8201ae97/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 20 20:17:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 21:17:49 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Great reminder Message-ID: Stop! Take a moment, and say a sincere "thank you" to HaShem for all the the good things you have right now. (from Rav Ariel Bar Tzadok) Hanoch **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080720/e02cc93d/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jul 21 01:13:02 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 01:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Great reminder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <466C040EE304417DA0BADFADFC4B6588@bettygivin> Just did! Great reminder! Thanks Hanoch.wonderful thing to have in mind as I drift off to sleep tonight! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 8:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Great reminder Stop! Take a moment, and say a sincere "thank you" to HaShem for all the the good things you have right now. (from Rav Ariel Bar Tzadok) Hanoch _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080721/d091bc53/attachment.html From moshekale at bigpond.com Mon Jul 21 18:50:14 2008 From: moshekale at bigpond.com (Moshe Kale) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:50:14 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean Message-ID: <000601c8eb8c$85a21580$9767de79@home6xc4ujv2ip> Hi to all, Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some. The question is this: When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say because they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual cycle or because of an emission of semen, what does this mean for us today? Say for instance when a man and wife have sexual relations, how does being "unclean" effect our lives before YHWH? What are the restrictions and/or implications imposed on us? Thank you in advance for your replies. Blessings, Moshe and Ally -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080722/c577ec9d/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jul 18 12:48:16 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:48:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Scriptures for the Whole House of Israel - Sent Using Google Toolbar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: calb fordham Date: Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:19 PM Subject: Scriptures for the Whole House of Israel - Sent Using Google Toolbar To: Chris and Amber *Scriptures for the Whole House of Israel* * Scriptures* *for the **Whole House of Israel* ------------------------------ Finally, a translation that retains the radical continuity between the "Old" and "New" Testaments!For twenty centuries people have been emphasizing their differences, and there were indeed a few minor modifications because of our exile and some ways in which the "New" placed a seal of finality on YHWH's work in the world which the first covenant had not been able to accomplish. But the very one who ratified the new covenant said that anyone who in the slightest way denigrated the Torah would have the lowest position in His Kingdom. This version seeks to preserve that perspective in every way. *Now there's a readable sacred-name translation of the whole Torah and some other parts of Scripture* on line that uses everyday modern English but emphasizes our connection to the ancient Hebraic ways. Names are transliterated from the Hebrew and a special emphasis is placed on the return of the long-lost Northern Kingdom and the reunification of Israel and Yehudah that has already begun. Except where otherwise noted, most commentary was hammered out in discussion between all adult members of Congregation Beth Lechem near Columbia, South Carolina over several years. *Click on any of the boxes below to read the portions already translated:* Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy B'reyshith (1:1 - 6:8) Shemoth (1:1 - 6:1) Va-Yiqra (1:1 - 5:26) B'Midbar (1:1 - 4:20) D'varim (1:1 - 3:22) Noach (6:9 - 11:32) VaEra (6:2 - 9:35) Tzav (6:1 - 8:36) Naso (4:21 - 7:89) VaEthkhanan (3:23 - 7:11) Lekh L'kha (12:1 - 17:27) Bo (10:1 - 13:16) Shemini (9:1 - 11:47) B'haAloth'cha (8:1 - 12:16) 'Eqev (7:12 - 11:25) VaYera' (18:1 - 22:24) B'shalach (13:17 - 17:16) Tazria (12:1 - 13:59) Shelach L'cha (13:1 - 15:41) Re'eh (11:26 - 16:17) Chayei Sarah (23:1 - 25:18) Yithro (18:1 - 20:26) Metzora (14:1 - 15:33) Qorach (16:1 - 18:32) Shoftim (16:18 - 21:9) Tol'doth (25:19 - 28:9) Mishpatim (21:1 - 24:18) Akharei Mot (16:1 - 18:30) Chuqat (19:1 - 22:1) Ki-Theytzey (21:10 - 25:19) VaYetzey (28:10 - 32:2) T'rumah (25:1 - 27:19) Qedoshim (19:1 - 20:27) Balaq (22:2 - 25:9) Ki-Thavo (26:1 - 29:9) VaYishlach (32:3 - 36:43) Tetzaveh (27:20 - 30:10) Emor (21:1 - 24:23) Pin'has (25:10 - 29:40) Nitzavim (29:10 - 30:20) VaYeshev (37:1 - 40:23) Ki-Thisa (30:11 - 34:35) B'Har (25:1 - 26:2) Mattoth (30:1 - 32:42) Va-Yelech (31:1-30) Mi-Qeytz (41:1 - 44:17) Va Ya-q'hel (35:1 - 38:20) B'Chuqothai (26:3 - 27:34) Massei (33:1 - 36:13) Ha'Azinu (32:1-52) VaYigash (44:18 - 47:27) P'qudey (38:21 - 40:38 V'Zot haBrachah (33:1 - 34:12) VaYechi (47:28 - 50:26) Neviim (Prophets) Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel Hosea Joel Amos Obadiah Micah Nahum Habakkuk Zephaniah Haggai Zechariah Malachi Ketuvim (Writings) Joshua Judges Ruth 1 Samuel 2 Samuel 1 Kings 2 Kings Ezra Nehemiah Esther Psalms *B'rith Khadashah* (Renewed Covenant for the House of Israel and the House of Judah) Matthew Luke John Acts Romans Galatians Ephesians Hebrews Yaaqov (James) Keyfa A (1 Peter) Revelation Send us your e-mail address if you'd like to receive the Torah commentary (updated weekly) from our congregational study each Sabbath. Why Another English Translation?First and foremost, because most translations use foreign names for the Creator--names that, during the age of grace may have been adequate to communicate the idea of "the highest deity", but which still borrowed the names of deities known in various culturolinguistic contexts that did not presuppose an accurate worldview, and thus brought with them baggage that we have had to, at best, "un-learn". As renters know well, the days of grace do not last forever. As knowledge increases, so does our responsibility to jettison every bit of paganism that is brought to light. Not only did YHWH specifically forbid His people to even have the names of foreign deities on our lips (Exodus 23:13), but specifically commanded us to use His revealed name (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:21). He also forbade us specifically from setting a table to Gad (Isaiah 65:11), which is pronounced exactly like the name of the Germanic deity (God) whose name is most often substituted for YHWH's; even if there is no linguistic connection (which we must not take for granted). Though one of the tribes of Israel has the same name, in the context of worship we must be much more cautious. The term "Lord", while it later came to have other meanings, also stems from a similar pagan ruler's name --and one associated with swine-farmers, no less! English translations normally do not make a clear distinction between "YHWH" and "Elohim" (a term with much broader applicability). This has led to much theological confusion. Things are often clearer in Hebrew, so this version uses the original Hebrew names. "Yahweh" (or "Yahuweh") is the pronunciation, but to remind the reader to speak it only with the utmost reverence, the four-letter equivalent of the unpointed Hebrew word (YHWH) is used here. Most English spellings of Biblical names are based on German transliterations, which are generally fairly close to the Hebrew. But due to linguistic shifts, they are no longer pronounced the same in English, and thus the spellings we usually have carried us further from the names to which these people would answer. Therefore, proper names are transliterated phonetically, with the common English equivalent sometimes added for clarity. In some cases church-oriented translations have cloaked ordinary, everyday Hebrew words with an almost "magical" meaning and need to be demystified. On the other hand, as in English, a Hebrew word may have many meanings. As an analogy, in English, the word "right" most often means "correct", but it also often means a particular side of the body, and can even mean "90 degrees". Being so far removed from the original context (and often too proud to ask those who spoke Hebrew as a first language), many translators often opted for the most common meaning of a word if the exact sense was not known, and thus, while not necessarily giving false information, the "bugle" has been given an indistinct sound, and "no one prepares for battle". Thus, even a translation made a year ago is already out of date in this sense, and there is always room for revision. Many prophecies were "sealed up" until the time they were needed. But now that Hebrew has become an everyday language again, linguistic science has turned up more insights into rhetorical styles, and archaeological knowledge has mushroomed, we have many more resources at our disposal to decipher just what the Biblical writers were referring to. The "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel"--the Northern Kingdom that YHWH promised to bring back into covenant as an entire people in the latter days--are only now rediscovering their roots. This has come to light so recently that most translations have no insight into this far-reaching background that finally makes sense of the distinctions Scripture draws between Israel as a whole and the Jews as one subset of Israel. One of the main purposes of this translation is to highlight the "road signs" that point us back to the "ancient path" that we are discovering to be our own heritage as well as Judah's. "To the Torah and to the testimony! If they do not speak in agreement with this word, they have no light..." (Yeshayahu/Isaiah 8:20) If an interpretation of any part of Scripture contradicts this "constitution" of the whole House of Israel, then it is mistaken, or at best the emphasis is misplaced. What is often called the "New Testament" is actually a renewal of YHWH's covenant with Israel, with only a few allowances made so we could survive our exile from the Promised Land. To miss this continuity leads to heartbreaking misperceptions. A correct understanding of Israel's founding document is absolutely essential. ... [Message clipped] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/4422f750/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/4422f750/attachment.pl -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080718/4422f750/attachment-0001.pl From RNDAVAR at aol.com Mon Jul 21 21:51:56 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:56 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Messages Message-ID: Chris and Amber had sent two notes to the dialogue list that did not go through. I have some filters set up. If any of you send a message that does not go through, please send me a nice note and I will review the content and let it through most likely. Frequently, messages fail to go through because of the size as in the case of these two. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080721/b2b6de6c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jul 21 21:55:16 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:55:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean In-Reply-To: <000601c8eb8c$85a21580$9767de79@home6xc4ujv2ip> References: <000601c8eb8c$85a21580$9767de79@home6xc4ujv2ip> Message-ID: <981D1AA9-E0BF-4634-95BE-A49ADFA6C91D@earthlink.net> Shalom Moshe, My understanding is that being "clean" or "unclean," had to do with "ritual purity," i.e., whether or not one could enter into the sanctified areas of the Mishkan/Temple. Essentially these are signs of mortality, or what is called the "profane," as opposed to the "sacred" or divine/Kavod. Currently all human beings are in a constant state of ritual "impurity," so the laws having to do with being clean after a quarantine period followed by the mikvah allowing one to "enter the camp," really becomes redundant, since the "camp" itself, that is all of our cultures, are ritually impure. The words "clean and "unclean" in English are quite misleading since they imply something "dirty" or bad. Ritual impurity is not bad, just part of being mortal (blood, sex, death). James Tabor On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Moshe Kale wrote: > Hi to all, > > Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some. The > question is this: When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say > because they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual > cycle or because of an emission of semen, what does this mean for us > today? Say for instance when a man and wife have sexual relations, > how does being "unclean" effect our lives before YHWH? What are the > restrictions and/or implications imposed on us? Thank you in > advance for your replies. > > Blessings, > Moshe and Ally > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080721/335956c9/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 22:38:06 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 23:38:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Jon Voight on Israel Message-ID: Here is an interview with Jon Voight on Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTtykyzWm0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080721/fdf24c04/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 07:15:42 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 08:15:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Messages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for letting us know. We saw the bounce back notice and wasn't sure what to do; now we know. Chris Fordham On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:51 PM, wrote: > Chris and Amber had sent two notes to the dialogue list that did not go > through. I have some filters set up. If any of you send a message that does > not go through, please send me a nice note and I will review the content and > let it through most likely. > > Frequently, messages fail to go through because of the size as in the case > of these two. > > Shalom, Ross > > *Ross K. Nichols * > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080722/8a4626eb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 22 11:28:25 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:28:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, but if you fool me TWICE..... Message-ID: <8CABA2F196A65F3-554-1C5D@WEBMAIL-MC01.sysops.aol.com> Shalom L'Kulchem, ???????? I had decided to try to limit my postings during this time of introspection leading up to T'Sha B'Av (9th of Av - the date the Temple's were destroyed), to focus on my own T'shuva - my own personal accounting.? But this story MADE me write something.? You know the old cliche - "Fool me once, shame on YOU, fool me twice - shame on ME!!"? Okay, so what is it going to take my co-religionists to "get it?!?"? And yes, another "Israeli Arab..." ????????????????? Hanoch Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack. He wounded 12 before being shot and killed. more 1. Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded by Hillel Fendel For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. He wounded several people before being shot and killed. The terrorist began his attempt to murder Jews on King David St. near the Yemin Moshe neighborhood.? He took a tractor from a construction site, and began plowing into vehicles along the street, hitting at least three cars - one of which he completely overturned - and a bus. One driver was able to escape from his car even though the tractor plowed it into a bus stop. When the terrorist reached the intersection of Keren HaYesod St., a citizen and Border Guard policeman shot and killed him.? The entire incident was over very quickly, eyewitnesses said. Less than three weeks ago, an Arab from eastern Jerusalem killed three people in a similar attack before he was himself killed by a heroic yeshiva student/soldier. The tractor used in today's attack was smaller than the one used in the previous one. Of the 12 injured, one is reported in moderate condition - apparently with an amputated leg - and the others have light injuries or are suffering from trauma.? Among them are a woman and her nine-month-old baby son. Gag-Order on Terrorist's Name The dead tractor terrorist was an Israeli citizen, living in Um Tuba, a south-eastern Jerusalem Arab neighborhood not far from Sur Baher.? His name was publicized over the radio, and minutes later, a gag order prohibiting it from being disseminated was publicized - apparently because of his family connections with a an orange-bearded Hamas legislator who has been jailed for involvement in terrorism. Moshe Feiglin, leader of the Likud's Manhigut Yehudit faction, was an eyewitness to the attack. He told Voice of Radio that his first impression of the attack was the tractor-shovel attempting to drop down upon a passerby.?"At first I thought it was some kind of accident, but very quickly we realized that it was an attack.? Thank G-d, it ended very quickly, because of the alertness of passersby who shot him - I saw a man I know from the southern Judea community of Susia, but he was the first one to shoot the terrorist, and then the Border Guard policeman came and finished the story." The man who first shot the terrorist was later announced to be Yaki Asael, 56, father of eight, from Susia. "We have long called for a policy of not hiring Arabs in construction," said Shifra Hoffman of Victims of Arab Terror.? "We hold the government guilty of this attack for not implementing this policy." ? ? ? 1. Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded by Hillel Fendel For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. He wounded several people before being shot and killed. The terrorist began his attempt to murder Jews on King David St. near the Yemin Moshe neighborhood.? He took a tractor from a construction site, and began plowing into vehicles along the street, hitting at least three cars - one of which he completely overturned - and a bus. One driver was able to escape from his car even though the tractor plowed it into a bus stop. When the terrorist reached the intersection of Keren HaYesod St., a citizen and Border Guard policeman shot and killed him.? The entire incident was over very quickly, eyewitnesses said. Less than three weeks ago, an Arab from eastern Jerusalem killed three people in a similar attack before he was himself killed by a heroic yeshiva student/soldier. The tractor used in today's attack was smaller than the one used in the previous one. Of the 12 injured, one is reported in moderate condition - apparently with an amputated leg - and the others have light injuries or are suffering from trauma.? Among them are a woman and her nine-month-old baby son. Gag-Order on Terrorist's Name The dead tractor terrorist was an Israeli citizen, living in Um Tuba, a south-eastern Jerusalem Arab neighborhood not far from Sur Baher.? His name was publicized over the radio, and minutes later, a gag order prohibiting it from being disseminated was publicized - apparently because of his family connections with a an orange-bearded Hamas legislator who has been jailed for involvement in terrorism. Moshe Feiglin, leader of the Likud's Manhigut Yehudit faction, was an eyewitness to the attack. He told Voice of Radio that his first impression of the attack was the tractor-shovel attempting to drop down upon a passerby.?"At first I thought it was some kind of accident, but very quickly we realized that it was an attack.? Thank G-d, it ended very quickly, because of the alertness of passersby who shot him - I saw a man I know from the southern Judea community of Susia, but he was the first one to shoot the terrorist, and then the Border Guard policeman came and finished the story." The man who first shot the terrorist was later announced to be Yaki Asael, 56, father of eight, from Susia. "We have long called for a policy of not hiring Arabs in construction," said Shifra Hoffman of Victims of Arab Terror.? "We hold the government guilty of this attack for not implementing this policy." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080722/c5bef24c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 13:38:30 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:38:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, but if you fool me TWICE..... In-Reply-To: <8CABA2F196A65F3-554-1C5D@WEBMAIL-MC01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CABA2F196A65F3-554-1C5D@WEBMAIL-MC01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: "Injuries" sounds so minor, and yet someone had his leg amputated because of this second horrendous "bulldozer" attack on innocents. I'm just thankful that two good men reacted quickly to kill Amalek. Thank you, Hanoch, Avigail/Pat From: youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 12:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Yeah, but if you fool me TWICE..... Shalom L'Kulchem, I had decided to try to limit my postings during this time of introspection leading up to T'Sha B'Av (9th of Av - the date the Temple's were destroyed), to focus on my own T'shuva - my own personal accounting. But this story MADE me write something. You know the old cliche - "Fool me once, shame on YOU, fool me twice - shame on ME!!" Okay, so what is it going to take my co-religionists to "get it?!?" And yes, another "Israeli Arab..." Hanoch Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack. He wounded 12 before being shot and killed. more 1. Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded by Hillel Fendel For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. He wounded several people before being shot and killed. The terrorist began his attempt to murder Jews on King David St. near the Yemin Moshe neighborhood. He took a tractor from a construction site, and began plowing into vehicles along the street, hitting at least three cars - one of which he completely overturned - and a bus. One driver was able to escape from his car even though the tractor plowed it into a bus stop. When the terrorist reached the intersection of Keren HaYesod St., a citizen and Border Guard policeman shot and killed him. The entire incident was over very quickly, eyewitnesses said. Less than three weeks ago, an Arab from eastern Jerusalem killed three people in a similar attack before he was himself killed by a heroic yeshiva student/soldier. The tractor used in today's attack was smaller than the one used in the previous one. Of the 12 injured, one is reported in moderate condition - apparently with an amputated leg - and the others have light injuries or are suffering from trauma. Among them are a woman and her nine-month-old baby son. Gag-Order on Terrorist's Name The dead tractor terrorist was an Israeli citizen, living in Um Tuba, a south-eastern Jerusalem Arab neighborhood not far from Sur Baher. His name was publicized over the radio, and minutes later, a gag order prohibiting it from being disseminated was publicized - apparently because of his family connections with a an orange-bearded Hamas legislator who has been jailed for involvement in terrorism. Moshe Feiglin, leader of the Likud's Manhigut Yehudit faction, was an eyewitness to the attack. He told Voice of Radio that his first impression of the attack was the tractor-shovel attempting to drop down upon a passerby. "At first I thought it was some kind of accident, but very quickly we realized that it was an attack. Thank G-d, it ended very quickly, because of the alertness of passersby who shot him - I saw a man I know from the southern Judea community of Susia, but he was the first one to shoot the terrorist, and then the Border Guard policeman came and finished the story." The man who first shot the terrorist was later announced to be Yaki Asael, 56, father of eight, from Susia. "We have long called for a policy of not hiring Arabs in construction," said Shifra Hoffman of Victims of Arab Terror. "We hold the government guilty of this attack for not implementing this policy." 1. Another Bulldozer Attack in Jerusalem: 12 Wounded by Hillel Fendel For the second time in three weeks, an Arab commandeered a bulldozer to commit a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. He wounded several people before being shot and killed. The terrorist began his attempt to murder Jews on King David St. near the Yemin Moshe neighborhood. He took a tractor from a construction site, and began plowing into vehicles along the street, hitting at least three cars - one of which he completely overturned - and a bus. One driver was able to escape from his car even though the tractor plowed it into a bus stop. When the terrorist reached the intersection of Keren HaYesod St., a citizen and Border Guard policeman shot and killed him. The entire incident was over very quickly, eyewitnesses said. Less than three weeks ago, an Arab from eastern Jerusalem killed three people in a similar attack before he was himself killed by a heroic yeshiva student/soldier. The tractor used in today's attack was smaller than the one used in the previous one. Of the 12 injured, one is reported in moderate condition - apparently with an amputated leg - and the others have light injuries or are suffering from trauma. Among them are a woman and her nine-month-old baby son. Gag-Order on Terrorist's Name The dead tractor terrorist was an Israeli citizen, living in Um Tuba, a south-eastern Jerusalem Arab neighborhood not far from Sur Baher. His name was publicized over the radio, and minutes later, a gag order prohibiting it from being disseminated was publicized - apparently because of his family connections with a an orange-bearded Hamas legislator who has been jailed for involvement in terrorism. Moshe Feiglin, leader of the Likud's Manhigut Yehudit faction, was an eyewitness to the attack. He told Voice of Radio that his first impression of the attack was the tractor-shovel attempting to drop down upon a passerby. "At first I thought it was some kind of accident, but very quickly we realized that it was an attack. Thank G-d, it ended very quickly, because of the alertness of passersby who shot him - I saw a man I know from the southern Judea community of Susia, but he was the first one to shoot the terrorist, and then the Border Guard policeman came and finished the story." The man who first shot the terrorist was later announced to be Yaki Asael, 56, father of eight, from Susia. "We have long called for a policy of not hiring Arabs in construction," said Shifra Hoffman of Victims of Arab Terror. "We hold the government guilty of this attack for not implementing this policy." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080722/444688dc/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 23 06:48:30 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:48:30 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Lekarev Report; 20th Tammuz 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 20 Tammuz 5768 July 23, 2008 Shalom Seek Hashem while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near; Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts; and let him return to Hashem, and He will have compassion upon him, and to our G-d, for He will abundantly pardon. Isaiah 55:6-7 **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/25503e21/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jul 23 09:10:09 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:10:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] THE FIRST AND LAST ADAM - FROM PLIGHT TO SOLUTION Message-ID: The story of the first and last Adam identifies most clearly the justice of G-D. Since G-D is just we would expect G-D to be a just judge. Adam's disobedience to the commandment of G-D to not eat of the tree pf the knowledge of good and evil lest he die, brought the plight of death through sin. To eat of the tree of life brought everlasting life, and to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought everlasting death. Death through sin became the plight of all mankind since all mankind came from Adam and Eve and all have sinned. It is here we observe the justice of G-D when life or death was the offer and choice given to the first man and woman. Therefore as it is said all die in Adam, meaning Adam the father of the human race brought sin into the world, and death through sin because all have sinned. This is a harsh reality and for many the verdict of death passed upon all the descendants of Adam and Eve seem unfair. Since all things were created by G-D he has the right to set the rules and he set before Adam and Eve the choice of life or death. And so in the beginning before there were sons and daughters we discover how important the will to chose what is right as set by G-D and the consequences of choosing incorrectly. The fear of death is a great enemy and death is the plight of all humanity. Adam the son of G-D made a wrong choice and as a result all human kind face death and all death is eternal without a resurrection. This is the plight of the human condition cut off from the tree of everlasting life. But G-D is not only a just G-D he is a G-D of mercy and love and planned the solution to the plight of the human condition from the foundation of the world. We have the first hint of the solution in Gen 3:15, from the seed of the woman Eve one would come and bruise the heard of the serpent and take away his headship over the world. Since Cain slew Abel another seed was needed to continue the genealogy of Adam. In Ge 4:25-26, Adam knew his wife again and she bare a son and called his name Seth - for G-D said she has appointed me another seed instead of Abel. And so in the next few chapters of Genesis the royal linage continues to be displayed. We fast forward to the genealogy of Luke who places Yeshua as the last son of Adam in the royal genealogy. Luke then traces back to the beginning to Adam the son of G-D. Yeshua a son of Adam in the bloodline linage from Adam becomes the solution of G-D. Before we can fill in the banks in Luke's genealogy we must first consider the legality of G-D as a just judge. G-D rules by and through Law and not by whim of the moment. The Legality of G-D In Luke's genealogy he begins at the end of the linage of Adam with Yeshua and works back to the beginning to Adam the son of G-D. The curse of death through sin brought on by the one man Adam must be taken away by a son of Adam and through the seed of Eve. This is the whole purpose of the royal genealogy. Sin and death through sin is not the problem of G-D, it is the problem of the first man Adam who failed the test of trusting G-D. The man Yeshua a son of Adam by perfectly trusting G-D obeyed G-D in all points of the Torah without sin. The legality of G-D is the father Adam to the son of Adam which is referred to as the last Adam. Adam brought sin into the world, and a man, i.e. son of Adam was the only legal method for taking away the curse of death through sin. Luke a companion of the apostle Paul must have understood Paul's teaching on the first and last Adam, which is most likely why he takes Yeshua as the last Adam in his genealogy back to the first Adam. The man to man father to son is the equation in the legality of G-D. It is quite simple, but made complicated by Greek philosophy and mythology. And so the equation is (1), by one mans disobedience death through sin passed upon all human kind. On the other hand (2), eternal life came by one man's perfect obedience through righteousness. What ever else was in the tree of life in the midst of the Garden - eternal life was gained by eating of it, which was why after their sin Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden. The last Adam in the royal linage by freely taking of the Holy Spirit of G-D which is life, and obeying G-D in all matters without sin is qualified to take away the curse of death through sin. The son of Adam human as the first Adam was human and given no more or less than what was offered to the first Adam was qualified to legally reverse the curse of death through sin. In Rom 5: 12-21 the first and last Adam as by one man sin came into the world and death through sin, and by one man Yeshua messiah the free gift of the grace of G-D eternal life is restored. The first man Adam could have taken from the tree of eternal life and lived forever. The last man Adam took of the Holy Spirit of G-D without measure and cried out to G-D with strong tears unto G-D who could save him. In the texts in Rom 5:12-21, eleven times Paul gives the man to man equation. As a side bar thought, since the equation is human to human the virgin birth is overturned, and with it the Greek and Roman god/man/ myth. We can now turn to the genealogy of Luke and it is with Abraham the redemption of G-D begins with the seed of Abraham the father of the faithful. Through Isaac, to Jacob and finally to Yeshua in the royal linage from Adam and Eve. The grace of G-D alone is the free gift, but once G-D bestows his grace on whomsoever he wills, then the obligation of those who are given G-D's grace their part is to keep the commandments of G-D. The first line of justification is by the grace of G-D alone on whomsoever he bestows his grace. In Rom 2:13 the second phase of justification is to be doers of the Torah of G-D. The justification of G-D to the plight of the father Adam to the son of Adam who takes away the curse of death through sin by perfectly keeping the Torah of G-D, sets the pattern of how one is made Just. The grace of G-D through the faith/faithfulness of Yeshua brings justification. But to have the curse of death taken away, one is not made just. To be made just is the second phase of the redemption of G-D, and that is by the Torah of G-D internalized in the inner parts and in the heart. The death and shed blood of the last Adam brings forgiveness of past sins. But that is only the beginning, since the only way to be made just is through the renewing of the mind. And how is the mind renewed? By living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-D. There is no short-cut to righteousness. Only by the same obedience to the Torah of G-D that Yeshua kept are we made just as he was made just. This I think is why we must think of the covenant of G-D brought about by Yehsua as a New/renewal covenant since only by the Torah of G-D is it possible to be made just. The two parses - first by G-D's grace alone he chooses whomsoever he wills. and secondly once chosen by G-D - justification comes by keeping the Torah. But what if one keeps the Torah of G-D but rejects G-d,s justification through Yeshua as the last Adam? That I think is an answer that only G-D can make. And so we have made the full circle from the last Adam back to the first Adam who was given the ability to choose. And just as Adam was given the ability to choose all that call upon the name of HaShem have the ability to choose. I have set forth for discussion the first and last Adam concept as I view it. Whether I'm right or wrong is a question for each to answer. It makes perfectly good sense to me, but may not make sense to others. I would like to know how each on the dialogue might view what has been set forth for discussion. If you believe the first and last Adam saga, why do you believe it? If you disbelieve it, why do you disbelieve it. Thank you in advance for your answers. Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/46bc34bc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 23 10:18:03 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:18:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel Message-ID: <8CABAEE6F817FB5-A98-1010@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com> Shalom to all, ???? The shul (synagogue) that I belong to is in the process of raising money - special?funds, for three very?special groups in Israel, that are simply not getting enough assistance.? Not from their government, and not from the big organizations like UJA/Federation, not from anyone... ???? One fund benefits the residents of Yehuda & Shomron - those who are living in OUR Biblical heartland, and are the ONLY thing preventing that holy land being given away to the Islamic hordes.? They have chosen to build their lives and families in such a crucial area, and their daily sacrifices enable it to remain in Jewish hands.? ??? The other fund is for the former residents of Gush Katif, who had their homes (and lives) destroyed, (as we gave the Islamo-Nazis Gaza, so they would 'leave us alone.'?) ?Most are unemployed or homeless, and their children are suffering horribly from the whole experience.? And many still need job training and help to restart their lives. ??? And the last special fund is for the residents of Sderot, who are bearing the brunt of the ongoing war in the South of Israel.? Remember....the 'Tzeva Adom' (Color, or Code Red) alert gives the residents a mere 15 seconds to find shelter before the next rocket hits...imagine if it were you, and your children where on their way to school, when the alert sounds.. ??? All contributions are (of course) tax deductible, and should be made out to the Young Israel of Forest Hills.? PLEASE NOTE in the memo portion of your check which (or all!) of these special causes you wish to support.? Everyone can give something - please remember to compare their sacrifices to ours, and then write out a check...whatever you can afford. ?? They can be mailed to: Young Israel of Forest Hills ???????????????????????????????????? 7100 Yellowstone Boulevard????????????? PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS NOTE!!!!!!!!!! ????????????????????????????????????? Forest Hills, N.Y. 11375 ??? Please give generously, isn't it the least we can do?? ???????????????? Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/026336d5/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 23 10:35:59 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:35:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel In-Reply-To: <8CABAEE6F817FB5-A98-1010@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com> References: <8CABAEE6F817FB5-A98-1010@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: What a worthy cause!!!! Will definitely do so myself, and am passing the information on to all of my contacts. Thank you so much, Hanoch, Pat From: youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:18 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel Shalom to all, The shul (synagogue) that I belong to is in the process of raising money - special funds, for three very special groups in Israel, that are simply not getting enough assistance. Not from their government, and not from the big organizations like UJA/Federation, not from anyone... One fund benefits the residents of Yehuda & Shomron - those who are living in OUR Biblical heartland, and are the ONLY thing preventing that holy land being given away to the Islamic hordes. They have chosen to build their lives and families in such a crucial area, and their daily sacrifices enable it to remain in Jewish hands. The other fund is for the former residents of Gush Katif, who had their homes (and lives) destroyed, (as we gave the Islamo-Nazis Gaza, so they would 'leave us alone.' ) Most are unemployed or homeless, and their children are suffering horribly from the whole experience. And many still need job training and help to restart their lives. And the last special fund is for the residents of Sderot, who are bearing the brunt of the ongoing war in the South of Israel. Remember....the 'Tzeva Adom' (Color, or Code Red) alert gives the residents a mere 15 seconds to find shelter before the next rocket hits...imagine if it were you, and your children where on their way to school, when the alert sounds.. All contributions are (of course) tax deductible, and should be made out to the Young Israel of Forest Hills. PLEASE NOTE in the memo portion of your check which (or all!) of these special causes you wish to support. Everyone can give something - please remember to compare their sacrifices to ours, and then write out a check...whatever you can afford. They can be mailed to: Young Israel of Forest Hills 7100 Yellowstone Boulevard PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS NOTE!!!!!!!!!! Forest Hills, N.Y. 11375 Please give generously, isn't it the least we can do?? Hanoch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/a6531987/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 12:03:23 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:03:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel In-Reply-To: <8CABAEE6F817FB5-A98-1010@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com> References: <8CABAEE6F817FB5-A98-1010@WEBMAIL-DG07.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: Amber and I will help! We are also forwarding this to our list. Chris On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:18 AM, wrote: > Shalom to all, > > The shul (synagogue) that I belong to is in the process of raising > money - special funds, for three very special groups in Israel, that are > simply not getting enough assistance. Not from their government, and not > from the big organizations like UJA/Federation, not from anyone... > > One fund benefits the *residents of Yehuda & Shomron* - those who are > living in OUR Biblical heartland, and are the ONLY thing preventing that > holy land being given away to the Islamic hordes. They have chosen to build > their lives and families in such a crucial area, and their daily sacrifices > enable it to remain in Jewish hands. > > The other fund is for the *former residents of Gush Katif*, who had > their homes (and lives) destroyed, (as we gave the Islamo-Nazis Gaza, so > they would 'leave us alone.' ) Most are unemployed or homeless, and their > children are suffering horribly from the whole experience. And many *still > *need job training and help to restart their lives. > > And the last special fund is for the *residents of Sderot*, who are > bearing the brunt of the ongoing war in the South of Israel. > Remember....the 'Tzeva Adom' (Color, or Code Red) alert gives the residents > a mere 15 seconds to find shelter before the next rocket hits...imagine if > it were *you*, and your children where on their way to school, when the > alert sounds.. > > All contributions are (of course) tax deductible, and should be made > out to the Young Israel of Forest Hills. PLEASE NOTE in the *memo portion > * of your check *which* (or all!) of these special causes you wish to > support. Everyone can give *something *- please remember to compare * > their* sacrifices to *ours*, and then write out a check...whatever you can > afford. > > They can be mailed to: Young Israel of Forest Hills > 7100 Yellowstone > Boulevard PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS NOTE!!!!!!!!!! > Forest Hills, N.Y. 11375 > > Please give generously, isn't it the least we can do?? > *Hanoch* > ------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar > Now ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/c63d351e/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 12:54:21 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE FIRST AND LAST ADAM - FROM PLIGHT TO SOLUTION Message-ID: <337385.65994.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Clyde, And unto the angel of the?Assembly in Smyrna write; 'These things saith the first and the last [ ADAM ], which was dead, and is alive'...Revelation 2:8 Clyde, though a couple of details I might?express a?little differently*,?what you describe?is really the Essence of the Gospel, which was preached first by G-d, Himself,?in The Torah in Genesis 3:15...her seed will?crush the head of the Satan although it will bruise the heel of the "seed".?Who is "the seed"? If we trace this seed through the Sacred Writings we end up?"The Testimony?of Yeshua ben David", in the Book of Revelation. This "seed" promise flows thru Noah, Shem, Abram, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, Solomon...Joseph, to Yeshua ben David. [A side note to Christians in general: Most of these never knew the exact identity of who this "seed" would be;?However, they believed in the promises of God and were justified by G-d's Grace through their faith in HaShem. Even so, the same exists among us?now as then.?Christian, you should know that, those who are not convinced, as?I am, about who this promised "seed" is,?they are?still Beloved, Justified,?are Re-born in?G-d, and experience the holy spirit of G-d. ] The First Adam? - ?brought death upon? all. The?Last Adam??-? brings??? life???? upon? all. None of this negates?the Torah & Prophets?in the between the two. In between these two cosmic legal events, we learn to love HaShem and our neighbors according to the Instruction Manual. Love & Prayers, Tracy *[The odd placement of the genealogy in Luke within the story of Yeshua's temptation, as compared to the same stories in Mark & Matthew lead me to believe that it was a later insertion into the text.]? ----- Original Message ---- From: "CBrown4465 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:10:09 AM Subject: [Dialogue] THE FIRST AND LAST ADAM - FROM PLIGHT TO SOLUTION The story of the first and last Adam identifies most clearly the justice of G-D. Since G-D is just we would expect G-D to be?a just judge.?Adam's disobedience to the commandment of G-D to not eat of the tree pf the knowledge of?good and evil?lest he die, brought the plight of death through sin. To eat of the tree of life brought everlasting life, and to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought everlasting death. Death through?sin became the plight of all mankind since all mankind came from Adam and Eve and all have sinned. It is here we observe the justice of G-D when life or death was the offer and choice?given to the first man and woman. ? Therefore as it is said all die in Adam, meaning Adam the father of the human race brought sin into the world, and death through sin because all have sinned. This is a harsh reality and for many the verdict of death passed upon all the descendants of Adam and Eve seem unfair. ? Since all things were created by G-D he has the right to set the rules and he set before Adam and Eve the choice of life or death. And so in the beginning before there were sons and daughters we discover how important the?will to chose what is right as set by G-D and the consequences of choosing incorrectly. The fear of death is a great enemy and death is the plight of all humanity. ? Adam the son of G-D made a wrong choice and as a result all human kind face death and all death is eternal without a resurrection. This is the plight of the human condition cut off from the tree of?everlasting life. ?But G-D is not only a just G-D he is a G-D of mercy and love and planned?the solution to?the?plight of the human condition?from the foundation of the world. We have the first hint of the solution in Gen 3:15, from the seed of the woman Eve one would come and bruise the heard of the?serpent and take away his headship over the world. ? Since Cain slew Abel another seed was needed to continue the genealogy of Adam. In Ge 4:25-26, Adam knew his wife again and she bare a son and called his name Seth - for G-D said she has appointed me another seed instead of Abel. And so in the next few chapters of Genesis the royal linage continues to be displayed. We fast forward to the genealogy of Luke who places Yeshua as the last son of Adam in the royal genealogy. Luke then traces back to the beginning to Adam the son of G-D. Yeshua a son of Adam in the bloodline linage from Adam becomes the solution of G-D. ? Before we can fill in the banks in Luke's genealogy we must first consider the legality of G-D as a just judge. G-D rules by and through Law and not by whim of the moment. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????The Legality of G-D? ? In Luke's genealogy he?begins at the end of the linage of Adam with Yeshua and works back to the beginning?to Adam the son of G-D.? The curse of death through sin brought on by the one man Adam must be taken away by a son of Adam and through the seed of Eve. This is the whole purpose of the?royal?genealogy. Sin and death through sin is not the problem of G-D, it is the problem of the first man?Adam who failed the test of trusting G-D. The man Yeshua a son of Adam?by perfectly trusting G-D obeyed G-D in all points of the Torah without sin.? The legality of G-D is the?father Adam to the son of Adam which is referred to as the last Adam.?Adam brought sin into the world, and a man, i.e. son of Adam was the only legal method for taking away the curse of death through sin. ? Luke a companion of the apostle Paul?must have understood Paul's teaching on the first and last Adam, which is?most likely why he takes Yeshua as the last Adam in his genealogy back to the first Adam. The man to man father to son is the?equation in the legality of G-D. It is quite simple, but made complicated by Greek philosophy and mythology. And so the equation?is (1), by one mans disobedience death through sin passed upon all human kind. On the other hand (2),?eternal life came by one man's perfect obedience through righteousness.? ? What ever else was in the tree of life in the midst of the Garden - eternal life was gained by eating of it, which was why after their sin?Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden. The last Adam in the royal linage by freely taking of the Holy Spirit of G-D which is life,?and obeying G-D in all? matters without sin?is qualified to take away the curse of death through sin. ? The son of Adam human as the first Adam was human?and?given no more or less than what was offered to the first Adam was qualified to legally reverse the curse of death through sin. In Rom 5: 12-21 the first and last Adam as by?one man sin came into the world and death through sin, and by one man Yeshua messiah the free gift of the grace of G-D eternal life is restored. The first man?Adam could have taken from the tree of eternal life and lived forever. The last man?Adam took of the Holy Spirit of G-D without measure and cried out to G-D with strong tears unto G-D who could save him.? In the texts in Rom 5:12-21, eleven times Paul gives the man to man equation. As a side bar thought, since the equation is human to human the virgin birth is overturned, and with it the Greek and Roman god/man/?myth. ? ? We can now turn to the genealogy of Luke and it is with Abraham the redemption of G-D begins with the seed of Abraham the father of the faithful. Through Isaac, to Jacob and finally to Yeshua in the royal linage from Adam and Eve. The grace of G-D alone is the free gift, but once G-D bestows his grace on whomsoever he wills, then the obligation of those who are given G-D's grace their part is to keep the commandments of G-D. The first line of justification is by the grace of G-D alone on whomsoever he bestows his grace. In Rom 2:13 the second phase of justification is to be doers of the Torah of G-D.? ? The justification of G-D to the plight of?the father Adam to the son of Adam who takes away the curse of death through sin by perfectly keeping the Torah of G-D, sets the pattern of how one is made Just.? The grace of G-D through the faith/faithfulness of Yeshua brings justification. But to have the curse of death taken away, one is not made just. To be made just is the second phase of the redemption of G-D, and that is by the Torah of G-D internalized in the inner parts and in the heart. The death and shed blood of the last Adam brings forgiveness of past sins. But that is only the beginning, since the only way to be made just is through the renewing of the mind.? ? And how is the mind renewed??By living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-D. There is no short-cut to righteousness. Only by the same obedience to the Torah of G-D that Yeshua kept are we made just as he was made just. This I think is why we must think of the covenant of G-D brought about by Yehsua as a New/renewal covenant since only by the Torah of G-D is it possible to be made just. The two parses - first by G-D's grace alone he chooses whomsoever he wills. and secondly once chosen by G-D - justification comes by keeping the Torah.? ? But what if one keeps the Torah of G-D but rejects G-d,s justification through Yeshua as the last Adam? That?I think is an answer that only G-D can make. And so we have made the full circle from the last Adam back to the first Adam who was given the ability to choose. And just as Adam was given the ability to choose all that call upon the name of HaShem have the ability to choose. I have set forth for discussion the first and last Adam concept as I view it. Whether I'm right or wrong is a question for each to answer. It makes perfectly good?sense to me, but may not make sense to others. I would like to know how each on the dialogue might view what has been set forth for discussion. If you believe the first and last Adam saga, why do you believe it? If you disbelieve it, why do you disbelieve it.? ? Thank you in advance for your answers. ? Clyde??????? ? ? ________________________________ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/a04339e3/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 15:26:40 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel Message-ID: <497464.80655.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thank You Hanoch, for alerting us to this opportunity to be ONE with our brethren and OUR Land!! We are writing a check today! and encourage others to give also! Blessed Are Those Pioneers who blaze the trail for all of us to follow!!! Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "youngbarzel at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:18:03 AM Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a difference in Israel Shalom to all, ???? The shul (synagogue) that I belong to is in the process of raising money - special?funds, for three very?special groups in Israel, that are simply not getting enough assistance.? Not from their government, and not from the big organizations like UJA/Federation, not from anyone... ???? One fund benefits the residents of Yehuda & Shomron - those who are living in OUR Biblical heartland, and are the ONLY thing preventing that holy land being given away to the Islamic hordes.? They have chosen to build their lives and families in such a crucial area, and their daily sacrifices enable it to remain in Jewish hands.? ??? The other fund is for the former residents of Gush Katif, who had their homes (and lives) destroyed, (as we gave the Islamo-Nazis Gaza, so they would 'leave us alone.'?) ?Most are unemployed or homeless, and their children are suffering horribly from the whole experience.? And many still need job training and help to restart their lives. ??? And the last special fund is for the residents of Sderot, who are bearing the brunt of the ongoing war in the South of Israel.? Remember....the 'Tzeva Adom' (Color, or Code Red) alert gives the residents a mere 15 seconds to find shelter before the next rocket hits...imagine if it were you, and your children where on their way to school, when the alert sounds.. ??? All contributions are (of course) tax deductible, and should be made out to the Young Israel of Forest Hills.? PLEASE NOTE in the memo portion of your check which (or all!) of these special causes you wish to support.? Everyone can give something - please remember to compare their sacrifices to ours, and then write out a check...whatever you can afford. ?? They can be mailed to: Young Israel of Forest Hills ???????????????????????????????????? 7100 Yellowstone Boulevard????????????? PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS NOTE!!!!!!!!!! ????????????????????????????????????? Forest Hills, N.Y. 11375 ??? Please give generously, isn't it the least we can do?? ???????????????? Hanoch ________________________________ The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/d157cf64/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 17:14:02 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:14:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The First and Last Adam Message-ID: <516d73340807231514n11e643a6m5ac2bc8c05abdace@mail.gmail.com> G'day Clyde, A question: Does your use of the word "justification" incorporate the theological understanding of the word "sanctification"? I have long understood that the forensic or legal process of salvation could be understood as a three part process : 1 Justification---through an individual's repentance God accounts that individual as being righteous in God's sight- accepted as though he had never sinned. A point in time experience. 2 Sanctification--God, through Spirit endowment, enables the individual to live a righteous life of commitment to God. The process of a lifetime. 3 Glorification--God brings the individual to eternal life through resurrection at the "Day of Judgement". Are we talking the same language? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/39b0187c/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 23 19:23:28 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:23:28 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <072420080023.9654.4887CB80000511D2000025B622228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: 1) Where does The Tenakh say that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal... 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life? I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept... 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5 I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. On a quest for The Truth, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/479c59eb/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 20:38:03 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <661370.36543.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Glenn, My thoughts in blue below Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: ? 1) Where does The Tenakh say?that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals as well as people... Isa 27:1In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that isin the sea. Isa 24:21And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that areon high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen angelic beings to me.? 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their hearts as "of your father, the devil". ? 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin??Note: There is a difference between the effect of?The Original Sin of Adam and its result?of Death being passed to all men, and the?church's doctrine of a "Sin" nature?being passed on from?parents to children.?"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.?The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own sinning] neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.?But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.?Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This is part of The Torah's ways - right? ? 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required?to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life???I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and?given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a practice - it is a?modern day?christian practice.?Repent and believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a prayer that 'The Maschiach' or?'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed upon the 70 Elders, or, The?Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have?Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry on the ministry of?their teacher.? ? 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God.?Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5?? All of them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. So...?? ? I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome to the club!!!!!!! ? On a quest for The Truth, ? Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/b3db3658/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Wed Jul 23 20:47:40 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:47:40 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams References: <072420080023.9654.4887CB80000511D2000025B622228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Message-ID: <001401c8ed2f$440715e0$6400a8c0@davesbook> Good points Glen.......while I am still considering this "question/statement" put forth by our own Clyde. I wonder what this first last Adam (man) idea, does for each of us on a day to day (present time) basis. In other words on "The Path" that we walk daily, what difference does it make to me what some one did thousands of years ago? I have enough to deal with today......(Math.6:34) Cant wait till camping season! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:23 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: 1) Where does The Tenakh say that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal... 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life? I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept... 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5 I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. On a quest for The Truth, Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/82897bd5/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 23 21:06:12 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 02:06:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams In-Reply-To: <661370.36543.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <072420080206.28734.4887E394000199450000703E22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Shalom, Tracy, My responses in green. -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Glenn, My thoughts in blue below Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: 1) Where does The Tenakh say that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals as well as people... so - does the Tenakh say that the'serpent' (if that is even what a nachash is) was demon possessed? We can not just make assumptions about such things... Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. So does this say it is satan? Not seeing it... Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen angelic beings to me. Sounds like powerful and proud kings to me... not called demons here, either... 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their hearts as "of your father, the devil". So you believe the Pharasees were devil-spawn? I mean, like really his flesh and blood offspring? Is that what Yeshua was saying to them? 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? Note: There is a difference between the effect of The Original Sin of Adam and its result of Death being passed to all men, and the church's doctrine of a "Sin" nature being passed on from parents to children. The soul that sins, it shall die... does the Tenakh teach that I inherited death from Adam, or is that an NT concept? "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own sinning] Death is a consequence of sin, not heredity, if I read the Tenakh correctly... neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This is part of The Torah's ways - right? OK - so just what was 'promised' in Gen. 3:15, anyway? It sounds to me like YHVH is just telling all parties what will happen, not making anybody any promises. We can not read stuff into the text... 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life? I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a practice - it is a modern day christian practice. Repent and believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a prayer that 'The Maschiach' or 'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed upon the 70 Elders, or, The Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry on the ministry of their teacher. This sounds like fence building to me... heaping on burdens greavous to be borne... 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5 All of them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. So...?? Yeshua ben David said to do just two, or even one - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - on this hinge the Law and the Prophets... and when specifically asked about inheriting eternal life, he pointed to the Ten Words. I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome to the club!!!!!!! Plenty of company here, to be sure. On a quest for The Truth, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/35463882/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 22:11:39 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <111468.4268.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom again, Glenn, My responses in red. This will be looking like a rainbow soon. ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:06:12 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams Shalom, Tracy, ? My responses in green. -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Glenn, ? My thoughts in blue below Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: ? 1) Where does The Tenakh say?that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals as well as people... so - does the Tenakh say that the'serpent' (if that is even what a nachash is) was demon possessed? We can?not just make assumptions about such things...We all make assumptions... ? Isa 27:1In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that isin the sea.So does this say it is satan? Not seeing it... Isa 24:21And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe LORD shall punish (#1) the host of the high ones that areon high, (#2) and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen angelic beings to me.?Sounds like powerful and proud kings to me... not called demons here, either...Sounds like both to me... ? 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their hearts as "of your father, the devil". So you believe the Pharasees were devil-spawn? I mean, like really his flesh and blood offspring? Surely, you jest!! Is that what?Yeshua was saying to them? I think that those particular ones?were under the inspiration of the devil. ? ? 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin??Note: There is a difference between the effect of?The Original Sin of Adam and its result?of Death being passed to all men, and the?church's doctrine of a "Sin" nature?being passed on from?parents to children.?The soul that sins, it shall die... does the Tenakh teach that I inherited death from Adam [I think Genesis covered this one quite straightforwardly], or is that an NT concept [For me, the NT?is inspired interpretation of the Tanakh]? ?"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.?The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own sinning] Death is a consequence of sin, not heredity, if I read the Tenakh correctly...[?In the day that you eat you shall surely die. That death was?passed on to us all - irregardless of our actions. Maybe you think you're not going to die, as Ezekiel himself died.]?neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.?But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.?Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 ? Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This is part of The Torah's ways - right? OK - so just what was 'promised' in Gen. 3:15, anyway? It sounds to me like YHVH is just telling all parties what will happen, not making anybody any promises. We can not read stuff into the text...the saga is not hard to follow...and once you've read the story...follow the "seed" ? 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required?to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life???I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and?given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a practice - it is a?modern day?christian practice.?Repent and believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a prayer that 'The Maschiach' or?'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed upon the 70 Elders, or, The?Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have?Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry on the ministry of?their teacher.? This soundslike fence building to me... heaping on burdens greavous to be borne... Which part? The prophet Joel says, "I will pour out my spirit in those days..." Sounds like rejoicing to me. ? ? 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God.?Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5?? All of them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. So...?? Yeshua ben David said to do just two, or even one - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - on this hinge the Law and the Prophets... and when specifically asked about inheriting eternal life, he pointed to the Ten Words [He normally pointed to all the law and the prophets. Those two, or that one,?are merely summary statements for all of it. The rich young ruler, I believe, was a gentile. Yeshua basically gave him a Noachide prescription. See www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm?for a discussion of that though. Time to go to bed].? ? I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome to the club!!!!!!! Plenty of company here, to be sure. ? On a quest for The Truth, ? Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/3077e178/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Wed Jul 23 23:38:15 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:38:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] colored text Message-ID: <008801c8ed47$1750a080$6400a8c0@davesbook> My response is in black! MY SYSTEM DOES NOT SUPPORT THE TEXT IN COLORS.........(very hard to determine who says what, and whos on first!) whats up with that? I may not be the only one. dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080723/a3de5ff0/attachment.html From levi at leviyisrael.com Thu Jul 24 04:05:23 2008 From: levi at leviyisrael.com (Levi Yisrael) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:05:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams In-Reply-To: <111468.4268.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <111468.4268.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Glenn, I am just going to pull from the simple level. Prov. 3:5 Trust in YHVH with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding. Prov. 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him (YHVH), And He will make your paths smooth. YHVH is King! Is. 43:15 Levi On Jul 23, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom again, Glenn, > > My responses in red. This will be looking like a rainbow soon. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:06:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams > > Shalom, Tracy, > > My responses in green. > -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne > : -------------- > > Shalom Glenn, > > My thoughts in blue below > Tracy > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM > Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams > > I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general > consideration: > > 1) Where does The Tenakh say that the serpent (nachash) was satan? > Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals > as well as people... so - does the Tenakh say that the'serpent' (if > that is even what a nachash is) was demon possessed? We can not > just make assumptions about such things...We all make assumptions... > > Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong > sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan > that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the > sea. So does this say it is satan? Not seeing it... > Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD > shall punish (#1) the host of the high ones that are on high, (#2) > and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen > angelic beings to me. Sounds like powerful and proud kings to me... > not called demons here, either...Sounds like both to me... > > 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen > 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just > wondering... > There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the > Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. > Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their > hearts as "of your father, the devil". So you believe the Pharasees > were devil-spawn? I mean, like really his flesh and blood > offspring? Surely, you jest!! Is that what Yeshua was saying to > them? I think that those particular ones were under the inspiration > of the devil. > > 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own > obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to > reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? Note: There is a > difference between the effect of The Original Sin of Adam and its > result of Death being passed to all men, and the church's doctrine > of a "Sin" nature being passed on from parents to children. The > soul that sins, it shall die... does the Tenakh teach that I > inherited death from Adam [I think Genesis covered this one quite > straightforwardly], or is that an NT concept [For me, the NT is > inspired interpretation of the Tanakh]? "Behold, all souls are > mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is > mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, > it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, > [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a > sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own > sinning] Death is a consequence of sin, not heredity, if I read the > Tenakh correctly...[ In the day that you eat you shall surely die. > That death was passed on to us all - irregardless of our actions. > Maybe you think you're not going to die, as Ezekiel himself died.] > neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the > righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the > wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See > also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and > committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked > turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he > shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O > ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." > Ezekiel 33:18-20 > > Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not > included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? > Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. > This is part of The Torah's ways - right? OK - so just what was > 'promised' in Gen. 3:15, anyway? It sounds to me like YHVH is just > telling all parties what will happen, not making anybody any > promises. We can not read stuff into the text...the saga is not > hard to follow...and once you've read the story...follow the "seed" > > 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required to ask 'The > Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's > forgiveness and eternal life? I find where I am to urged to ask > for The Torah to be written there, and given clear instruction to > obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former > concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a > practice - it is a modern day christian practice. Repent and > believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a > prayer that 'The Maschiach' or 'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in > us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed > upon the 70 Elders, or, The Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. > One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have > Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry > on the ministry of their teacher. This sounds like fence building > to me... heaping on burdens greavous to be borne... Which part? The > prophet Joel says, "I will pour out my spirit in those days..." > Sounds like rejoicing to me. > > > 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, > and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God. Ye > shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man > do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5 All of > them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. > So...?? Yeshua ben David said to do just two, or even one - do unto > others as you would have them do unto you - on this hinge the Law > and the Prophets... and when specifically asked about inheriting > eternal life, he pointed to the Ten Words [He normally pointed to > all the law and the prophets. Those two, or that one, are merely > summary statements for all of it. The rich young ruler, I believe, > was a gentile. Yeshua basically gave him a Noachide prescription. > See www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm for a discussion of that though. > Time to go to bed]. > > I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave > many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to > alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome > to the club!!!!!!! Plenty of company here, to be sure. > > On a quest for The Truth, > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/cacd4762/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Jul 24 07:48:37 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:48:37 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: Hey Tracy, Brian, Glen, Dave, and all: I want to thank each of you for responding. I think each of us would agree that we do not have all of the answers. However, as we express our thoughts and views with an open mind and continue to learn, listen to one another, we will in the end furthers our understanding. Brian we are happy to see you back expressing your views which need to be considered as much as anyone else's. I can only speak for myself as a student of the word of G-D for nearly 50 years now, I cannot count the times I have had to change my views on issues through further study. I raised the issue of the first and last Adam since I think it is a core issue that takes us to the plight of humanity and explains why we all die. Death is an enemy and if we believe the word of God the curse of death can only be overcome by resurrection from the dead. The question posed - is how is the curse of death brought on by losing access to the tree of eternal life reversed? Glen has raised an important issue in his quoting: 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 I will suggest that the Ezekiel texts goes to the heart and core of false teaching in Christianity. The whole substitution dogma in Christianity is a farce. The notion that Yeshua takes our sins and gives us his righteousness has no basis in scripture whatsoever. What was taken away on the cross was the curse of eternal death. How do we know this? Because if G-D did not raise Yeshua from the dead we are still in our sins. That means the death of Yeshua on the cross did nothing to take away our sins. Just as Ezekiel stated it - each is accountable for their own sins. Forgiveness of our past sins does nothing to take our sins away. Brian in his email with further clarification also raises important issues. A further question is needed, and that is how are our sins taken away? This leads I think to the two step process I have continual suggested. (1) The grace of G-D alone and not by any good works brings justification and reconciliation, but that does not solve the sin issue and we all still have sin in one way or another. This leads then to (2), a second level of justification. How are we made just? Or another way of putting it, how are we made righteous? The answer I think is simple. For not the hearers of the Torah are just before G-D; but the doers of the Torah shall be justified (Rom 2:13) How simple is that? We are made just, that is made righteous by the Torah of G-D written on our inward parts and in our hearts. We cannot ride on the hem of Yeshua's garment, we must be made just, made righteous, as Yeshua was made righteous, and he was made righteous by living by ever word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-D. Our job is to put sin out of our lives, and G-D's job is through his Holy Spirit to write his Torah internally on our character and behavior, or as Yeshua said it so clearly, become like your Father in heaven. I would like to know how this understanding works for each of you? Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/afe84a52/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Size: 20615 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/afe84a52/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 08:53:45 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] colored text Message-ID: <515557.60206.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Dave for the reminder (you cracked me up)?[thats a laughing face]. It might be time for an upgrade. Yahoo has great colors. Who uses black & white TV's anymore? Come on man, take the plunge - you'll be glad you did. Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Dave Cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:38:15 AM Subject: [Dialogue] colored text ? My response is in black! ? MY SYSTEM DOES NOT SUPPORT?THE TEXT IN COLORS.........(very hard to determine who says what, and whos on first!) ? ? whats up with that?? I may not be the only one.???? dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/425df0e5/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 24 10:14:46 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:14:46 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] colored text In-Reply-To: <515557.60206.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <072420081514.13670.48889C660004BAFE0000356622218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> for the technically challenged, my future responses will be in bold italics -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks Dave for the reminder (you cracked me up) [thats a laughing face]. It might be time for an upgrade. Yahoo has great colors. Who uses black & white TV's anymore? Come on man, take the plunge - you'll be glad you did. Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Dave Cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:38:15 AM Subject: [Dialogue] colored text My response is in black! MY SYSTEM DOES NOT SUPPORT THE TEXT IN COLORS.........(very hard to determine who says what, and whos on first!) whats up with that? I may not be the only one. dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/8010f4a3/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 24 10:15:24 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:15:24 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams In-Reply-To: <111468.4268.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <072420081515.16504.48889C8C0005262C0000407822218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Tracy - I will respond when I get some time. -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom again, Glenn, My responses in red. This will be looking like a rainbow soon. ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:06:12 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams Shalom, Tracy, My responses in green. -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Glenn, My thoughts in blue below Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: 1) Where does The Tenakh say that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals as well as people... so - does the Tenakh say that the'serpent' (if that is even what a nachash is) was demon possessed? We can not just make assumptions about such things...We all make assumptions... Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. So does this say it is satan? Not seeing it... Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish (#1) the host of the high ones that are on high, (#2) and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen angelic beings to me. Sounds like powerful and proud kings to me... not called demons here, either...Sounds like both to me... 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their hearts as "of your father, the devil". So you believe the Pharasees were devil-spawn? I mean, like really his flesh and blood offspring? Surely, you jest!! Is that what Yeshua was saying to them? I think that those particular ones were under the inspiration of the devil. 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin? Note: There is a difference between the effect of The Original Sin of Adam and its result of Death being passed to all men, and the church's doctrine of a "Sin" nature being passed on from parents to children. The soul that sins, it shall die... does the Tenakh teach that I inherited death from Adam [I think Genesis covered this one quite straightforwardly], or is that an NT concept [For me, the NT is inspired interpretation of the Tanakh]? "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own sinning] Death is a consequence of sin, not heredity, if I read the Tenakh correctly...[ In the day that you eat you shall surely die. That death was passed on to us all - irregardless of our actions. Maybe you think you're not going to die, as Ezekiel himself died.] neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This is part of The Torah's ways - right? OK - so just what was 'promised' in Gen. 3:15, anyway? It sounds to me like YHVH is just telling all parties what will happen, not making anybody any promises. We can not read stuff into the text...the saga is not hard to follow...and once you've read the story...follow the "seed" 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life? I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a practice - it is a modern day christian practice. Repent and believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a prayer that 'The Maschiach' or 'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed upon the 70 Elders, or, The Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry on the ministry of their teacher. This sounds like fence building to me... heaping on burdens greavous to be borne... Which part? The prophet Joel says, "I will pour out my spirit in those days..." Sounds like rejoicing to me. 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5 All of them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. So...?? Yeshua ben David said to do just two, or even one - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - on this hinge the Law and the Prophets... and when specifically asked about inheriting eternal life, he pointed to the Ten Words [He normally pointed to all the law and the prophets. Those two, or that one, are merely summary statements for all of it. The rich young ruler, I believe, was a gentile. Yeshua basically gave him a Noachide prescription. See www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm for a discussion of that though. Time to go to bed]. I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome to the club!!!!!!! Plenty of company here, to be sure. On a quest for The Truth, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/12b8f1d4/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 13:28:54 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <976371.95734.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This systematic theology can indeed get confusing, especially if we do a poor job at teaching it. If we mix metaphors and terms it gets even more confusing. Let me lay this out before you this way, and see, if we're together thus far. (This gets a little confusing for those who would rather be camping. My wife looks at me cross-eyed sometimes.) ? HaShem's Grace summarized: ? Whom HaShem ... ? (1) Foreknew before the foundation of the world, He ? (2) Predestined -?that is, He made an appointment for each one to be ? (3) Called out of the moral darkness of the nations, and because of our response of faith?to Him and?His promises, He ? (4) Justified us (that is, He forgave us and wiped the slate clean) and?entered into a relationship with us that brings about our ? (5) Sanctification (our Holiness) makes us holy in heart and character)(this is where Clyde is using his term, 2nd Level of Justification) ? This is where Zachariah and Elizabeth were, righteous [just] before HaShem, walking in all?His commands and ordinances of blamelessly [Luke 1:6].)? HaShem, throughout our life, is writing His Torah upon our heart and His Love in the chapters of our life. We learn to hate evil and love good.?We graduate from one level of maturity to another striving for perfection in Heart, Soul, and Works. He ? (6) Anoints us with power, each in different ways, to participate with Him in the?Calling, Justifying, and Santifying of His other children throughout the world. Like an adopted child, we are trained to walk with Our Father, and then, we?die...but, HaShem has marvelous plans for us. At some point in the future, He has promised our Bodily Resurrection and ? (7) Glorification in the Olam haBa - the Age to Come. Wherein we are no longer subject to death. We live happily ever after. The First and only one to reach this state,?thus far , is ? (8) Yeshua ben David, and he is called the Firstborn from the dead. By perceiving this, it gives us much peace. In this state, Yeshua is called "the hope of glory", or, the hope of our own Glorification. Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ----- Original Message ---- From: "CBrown4465 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:48:37 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] About Adams Hey Tracy, Brian, Glen, Dave, and all: ? I want to thank each of you for responding. I think each of us would agree that we do not have all of the answers. However, as we?express our thoughts and views with an open mind and continue to learn, listen to one another, we will in the end furthers our understanding. Brian we are happy to see you back expressing your views which need to be considered as much as anyone else's. I can only speak for myself as a student of the word of G-D for nearly 50 years now, I cannot count the times I have had to change my views on issues through further study. I raised the issue of the first and last Adam since I think it is a core issue that takes us to the plight of humanity and explains why we all die. Death is an enemy and if we believe the word of God the curse of death can only be overcome by resurrection from the dead. The question posed - is how is the curse of death brought on by losing access to the tree of eternal life reversed? ? Glen has raised an important issue in his quoting: ? 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin??"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.?The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.?But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.?Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 ? I will suggest that the Ezekiel texts goes to the heart and core of false teaching in Christianity. The whole substitution dogma in Christianity is a farce. The notion that Yeshua takes our sins and gives us his righteousness has no basis in scripture whatsoever. What was taken away on the cross was the curse of eternal death. How do we know this? Because if G-D did not raise Yeshua from the dead we are still in our sins. That means the death of Yeshua on the cross did nothing to take away our sins. Just as Ezekiel stated it -?each is accountable for their own sins. Forgiveness of our past sins does nothing to take our sins away. Brian in his email with further clarification also raises important issues. ? A further question is needed, and that is how are our sins taken away? This leads I think to the two step process I have continual suggested. (1) The grace of G-D alone and not by any good works brings justification and reconciliation, but that does not solve the sin issue and we all still have sin in one way or another. This leads then to (2), a second level of justification. How are we made just? Or another way of putting it, how are we made righteous? The answer I think is simple.?For not the hearers of the Torah are just before G-D; but the doers of the Torah shall be justified (Rom 2:13) ? How simple is that? We are made just, that is?made righteous by the Torah of G-D written on our inward parts and in our hearts.?We cannot ride on the hem of Yeshua's garment, we must be made just, made righteous, as Yeshua was made righteous, and he was made righteous by living by ever word that proceeds out of the mouth of G-D. Our job is to put sin out of our lives, and G-D's job is through his Holy Spirit to write his Torah internally on our character and behavior, or as Yeshua said it so clearly, become like your Father in heaven. I would like to know how this understanding works for? each of you? ? Clyde? ________________________________ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -----Inline Message Follows----- Shalom again, Glenn, ? My responses in red. This will be looking like a rainbow soon. ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:06:12 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams Shalom, Tracy, ? My responses in green. -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom Glenn, ? My thoughts in blue below Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: "chattertonw at bellsouth.net" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:23:28 PM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams I would pose a few questions of my own at this juncture for general consideration: ? 1) Where does The Tenakh say?that the serpent (nachash) was satan? Gen. 3:14 implies it was an animal......demons can inhabit animals as well as people... so - does the Tenakh say that the'serpent' (if that is even what a nachash is) was demon possessed? We can?not just make assumptions about such things...We all make assumptions... ? Isa 27:1In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that isin the sea.So does this say it is satan? Not seeing it... Isa 24:21And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe LORD shall punish (#1) the host of the high ones that areon high, (#2) and the kings of the earth upon the earth.... Sounds like fallen angelic beings to me.?Sounds like powerful and proud kings to me... not called demons here, either...Sounds like both to me... ? 2) Why does no one ever speak of the serpent's seed (ref. Gen 3:15)? Does 'satan' have children? If so, who are they? Just wondering... There are references in the Talmud of opponents such as the Talmidim of Hillel & Shammai using such language for one another. Yeshua ben David, in John, speaks of those with murder in their hearts as "of your father, the devil". So you believe the Pharasees were devil-spawn? I mean, like really his flesh and blood offspring? Surely, you jest!! Is that what?Yeshua was saying to them? I think that those particular ones?were under the inspiration of the devil. ? ? 3) Ezekiel clearly states that each is responsible for their own obedience/disobedience, and the resultant consequences... how to reconcile that with the doctrine of original sin??Note: There is a difference between the effect of?The Original Sin of Adam and its result?of Death being passed to all men, and the?church's doctrine of a "Sin" nature?being passed on from?parents to children.?The soul that sins, it shall die... does the Tenakh teach that I inherited death from Adam [I think Genesis covered this one quite straightforwardly], or is that an NT concept [For me, the NT?is inspired interpretation of the Tanakh]? ?"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.?The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, [physical death is passed from parents to their children - not a sin nature...spiritual death/excision is the result of our own sinning] Death is a consequence of sin, not heredity, if I read the Tenakh correctly...[?In the day that you eat you shall surely die. That death was?passed on to us all - irregardless of our actions. Maybe you think you're not going to die, as Ezekiel himself died.]?neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:4, 20. See also "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.?But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.?Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways." Ezekiel 33:18-20 ? Is belief in the promise of Genesis 3:15 (faith in G-d) not included in this judgment? Did Ezekiel believe in this promise? Abram believed G-d, and it was accounted to him as righteousness. This is part of The Torah's ways - right? OK - so just what was 'promised' in Gen. 3:15, anyway? It sounds to me like YHVH is just telling all parties what will happen, not making anybody any promises. We can not read stuff into the text...the saga is not hard to follow...and once you've read the story...follow the "seed" ? 4) Where in the Tenakh does it state that I am required?to ask 'The Mashiach' (or last Adam) into my heart in order to receive YHVH's forgiveness and eternal life???I find where I am to urged to ask for The Torah to be written there, and?given clear instruction to obey it, but have yet to find any mention of the former concept...The Tenakh nor the Testimony of Yeshua records such a practice - it is a?modern day?christian practice.?Repent and believe the Gospel is the message of both. Although, there is a prayer that 'The Maschiach' or?'the mind of Maschiach' may dwell in us. And that is kind of like The Spirit upon Moses being placed upon the 70 Elders, or, The?Spirit of EliYah resting upon Elisha. One did not have to be one of the 70 Elders or Elisha to have?Y.H.V.H.'s forgiveness...but, it sure was helpful for them to carry on the ministry of?their teacher.? This soundslike fence building to me... heaping on burdens greavous to be borne... Which part? The prophet Joel says, "I will pour out my spirit in those days..." Sounds like rejoicing to me. ? ? 5) As for the Life given by the Torah - "Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHVH your God.?Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am YHVH." Leviticus 18:4-5?? All of them, at present, are impossible to do, since there is no Temple. So...?? Yeshua ben David said to do just two, or even one - do unto others as you would have them do unto you - on this hinge the Law and the Prophets... and when specifically asked about inheriting eternal life, he pointed to the Ten Words [He normally pointed to all the law and the prophets. Those two, or that one,?are merely summary statements for all of it. The rich young ruler, I believe, was a gentile. Yeshua basically gave him a Noachide prescription. See www.onhigh.org/twosticks7.htm?for a discussion of that though. Time to go to bed].? ? I do realize that such questions were why I was invited to leave many a fellowship of 'believers' in the past, so if this tends to alienate me, it will not be an unfamiliar occurrence to me. Welcome to the club!!!!!!! Plenty of company here, to be sure. ? On a quest for The Truth, ? Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/59f36721/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 24 14:43:25 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:43:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Important read: "Who Cares About Our Soldiers?" Message-ID: <8CABBDCAC412D48-A4C-74F@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com> Who Cares About Our Soldiers? 21 Tammuz 5768, 24 July 08 05:02 by Naomi Ragen (IsraelNN.com) My article "Infamy" has been widely circulated. The response has been overwhelmingly supportive. But what I would like to do is speak not to those who were "shocked and disgusted" by my admission that I was ashamed to be an Israeli after the release of Samir Kuntar - the baby-killer Hizbullah is so proud of and who says he can't wait to kill again - but to those who disagree for reasons I can respect. In an article entitled, "When Mistakes Are Worth Making", Daniel Gordis quotes me without using my name and says that - unlike me - he feels proud of what Israel did. He says that he can now face his sons, one of whom is about to be drafted, with the firm belief that while the country he lives in demands much of its soldiers, it is also a country that "owes [them] everything in return and getting them home... is part of that." I also have a son who is in the army. And as far as I see it, a soldier is sent to the front to defend the citizens of his homeland. All the risks, the injuries, the loss of life that come to soldiers and their families, are based on the premise that the citizens of that country are worth defending, and that those who rise up to murder them must be stopped and punished, or at least put somewhere they can do no harm. What I think Israel owes its soldiers and their families is the vow that their sacrifices20of life and limb will not have been in vain. By returning the bodies of soldiers who died to protect Israel's people at the cost of turning loose a murderer who has declared he can't wait for his next opportunity to kill, the State of Israel is spitting in the face of that sacrifice. Now that Hamas has openly declared that the Kuntar trade has given them the determination to keep Gilad Shalit prisoner until hundreds of Palestinian murderers are let loose, I can only say this: How many soldiers died and suffered permanent injuries to apprehend those murderers? What of their sacrifice and the sacrifice of their families? And what of the families of the victims? As Ehud Olmert hugged Karnit Goldwasser, weeping with her, he turned his back on 82-year-old Nina Karen, the mother of Danny Haran and grandmother of the two babies Kuntar was physically and morally responsible for murdering. Karnit lost her husband because he was a soldier in the Israeli army. He gave his life to defend us. And Ehud Olmert turned that sacrifice into an empty gesture, a photo-op. I was in a terror attack. It is known as the Passover Massacre. A terrorist blew himself up in a Netanya hotel just as people were sitting down to the Seder. Most of them were elderly Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren. We were lucky. We were upstairs. What we didn't know is that a second bomber was scheduled to blow himself up upstairs, and would have killed my entire family. He was apprehended by Israeli soldiers at great personal risk soon after, and now sits in an Israeli prison; until another corrupt Israeli politician decides to take the easy way out and let him and hundreds more like him out into the streets to kill again, so that our soldiers will have to risk their lives again. This is not a mistake worth making. It's a mistake we are risking the lives of our soldiers to prevent. Let us respect that and stop kidding ourselves that we can make something heroic out of something despicably wrong. Let us get rid of the men and women whose brainless approach to leadership has already cost us a price we, and no nation, can afford to pay. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/6e19e5e2/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 24 16:44:23 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham Message-ID: <934601.96113.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> There is a difference between Abram & Abraham. Abram walked with HaShem. Abram entered a new status, a new name, a new sign - circumcision. He was given the commission to create a Priestly Nation on behalf of all other nations. To preserve "The Way" and promote it among the 70 nations. His new status did not "save" him - it gave him a special calling. Abram was righteous and walked with HaShem before he became Abraham. Even so, one does not have to become part of the Priestly Nation to be "saved". However, if he feels called to walk in this special calling, then, he may be circumcised, and minister in that capacity. So, in my view, circumcision, was not for "salvation" but for a specific calling among all nations. What do ye think, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/85f9031a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 24 20:21:19 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 21:21:19 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] An interesting article... Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, I've recently gotten very into the writings and teachings of Rav Lazer Brody. Here is a VERY interesting piece he wrote below... Hanoch "_Lazer Beams_ (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/atom.xml) " - 1 new article _The Rise of Mister V_ (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/typepad/pGFj/~3/343987830/the-rise-of-mister-v.html) (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345263cd69e200e553b412728833-pi) veneer - a superficially or deceptively attractive appearance, display, or effect (Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, pg. 1387) barak (Hebrew) - lightning; flash; glitter, shine; veneer Image, left: Israeli President Peres with Obama, "Mister V" Mister V is a great code-name for Bara(c)k Hussein Obama for two "V" reasons: First, according to the way we're reading the spiritual map, BHO will be victorious in the upcoming Presidential election. That's right, it looks like he'll be the next President of the United States. Second, he's got the best veneer in town, a smile that Colgate or Crest would pay millions for, and a kaleidoscopic tongue that plays whatever music his listeners want to hear. Hashem makes drastic changes overnight to expedite the process of Geula, the full redemption of our people. Overnight, an insignificant beer-guzzling Austrian barstool-jockey corporal named Adolph Shicklegruber (aka Hitler) came out of nowhere to become the Fuhrer - the absolute dictator of Europe's most cultured nation that also overnight turned into a country of bloodthirsty savages. Mister V is part of the Geula blueprint. Hashem took him out of nowhere too. He hasn't even finished his freshman term in the Senate, and he's already the Dem's candidate for 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, NW. How did it happen? On July 27th, 2004 Senate candidate Barack Obama spoke to delegates during the Democratic National Convention in Boston. Some call it "_The Speech_ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16456639/displaymode/1107/s/2/framenumber/11/) ", a 17 minute star-making turn. Obama walked on stage an unknown, and walked off as a star. Four months after the convention, Obama won the U.S. Senate seat in a landslide. Now hear this: July 27th, 2004 was the 9th day of the Hebrew month of Av, "Tisha B'Av." This is a perpetual day of calamity for the Jewish people when among other disasters, both Holy Temples in Jerusalem were destroyed. Mister V, finishing up his glittering tour of Israel today, has wrapped all the anti-emuna feeble-brained politicians around his pinky finger. Abu Mazen and Said Ereket of the Palestinian Authority are dying for Mister V to be elected. We know all the triple talk that he said to the Jews, but we don't know a thing of what he said to the Arabs. I wonder why they're so fond of him... Your friend Lazer says once again that it's high time for teshuva. By teshuva, I don't mean simply going through the motions of Jewish rituals, but establishing a sincere and personal relationship with Hashem. Don't think that the rocky road to redemption is only our problem over here in Israel. Many thousands of people are waking up here, for there's no lack of stimuli. But, if our beloved brothers and sisters outside of Israel don't wake up on their own, then the _Global Jihad_ (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3572348,00.html) just might remind them that it's time to return to Hashem. Here's a Geula prediction: Mister V will negotiate (and be buddies) with Iran, Syria, and everyone else, and Israel will stand alone with no one to turn to but Hashem. I like Mister V because I'm looking forward to that day. Wait and see how emuna will win and reign. This is getting exciting. ____________________________________ * This article was forwarded from _Lazer Beams_ (http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/atom.xml) using _FeedBlitz_ (http://www.feedblitz.com/) . * Your email address was not shared and you were not subscribed when you were sent this article. * _Subscribe to Lazer Beams email updates_ (http://www.feedblitz.com/f/f.fbz?Sub=40199) . * _Search Lazer Beams_ (http://www.feedblitz.com/f/f.fbz?search=40199) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080724/4dc0aa93/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jul 25 02:23:04 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:23:04 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Testimony at the UN - UN Watch Message-ID: <48897F58.4000505@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/d4cc8d63/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 25 03:09:04 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:09:04 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <516d73340807250109x7256ceb3r155ad22f05a925fb@mail.gmail.com> G'day Tracy and Clyde, Thanks for your responses. It is good to know we are all talking the same language. Tracy, I especially liked your clear delineation, it is great. Clyde, I always get a bit of a mental block when you bag Christianity, but I guess that is because I had determined that Christian theological teaching is not the same as what the Bible (both Testaments) says. Currently I am reading books by Bruce Chilton and Brad Young. These two writers confirm for me that my decision to gain a clearer perspective of Jesus is a right one, but as yet I am not convinced that I need to sever my church connections. Time alone will determine God's will for me in that area. Once again, thanks for your responses. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/c45803c7/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 25 05:27:01 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:27:01 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Israel's Growing Internal Threat" Message-ID: Please note what I've highlighted in RED at the end of this article...and remember, THEY MUST GO! Hanoch Israel?s Growing Internal Threat P. David Hornik - Jul 24, 2008 FrontPageMagazine.com Overshadowed by the news of Israel?s trade of live Lebanese terrorists for dead Israeli soldiers was no less important news about Israel?s arrests of six Al Qaeda-linked Israeli Arabs charged with plotting to shoot down President Bush?s helicopter earlier this year. Two of the suspects were from towns?Nazareth and Taibe?within pre-1967 Israel; the other four were from East Jerusalem. The former two, in other words, were full Israeli citizens with voting rights and so on. Although full Israeli citizenship has also been available to East Jerusalem Arabs since Israel annexed East Jerusalem after the 1967 war, all but a few of them reject it. Instead they have a status as residents that entitles them to various state benefits. The two citizens among the six were students at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and one of them, Muhammad Naghem of Nazareth, lived on a campus that gave him a view of a helicopter landing pad where Bush?s helicopter landed and took off during his visit to Israel in January. Naghem is charged with photographing the landing and takeoff on his cellphone and then sending the photos to an Al Qaeda-linked website. The president also visited Israel in April this year. The six suspects would meet regularly at the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Investigators for Israel?s General Security Service also found bomb-making instructions on some of the suspects? personal computers. Far from an isolated incident, it was part of a trend. Earlier this month two other Israeli Arabs?Bedouins living in southern Israel ?were indicted for passing information to Al Qaeda on strategic sites such as army bases, skyscrapers, and Ben-Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv. And both of the two largest terror attacks in Israel this year were perpetrated by East Jerusalem Arabs?the shooting rampage at a Jerusalem yeshiva on March 6 that killed eight teenage boys and young men and wounded eleven, and the bulldozer attack on a Jerusalem street on July 2 that killed three people and wounded over fifty. In both those cases the terrorist was killed in the course of the attack, but there is suspicion of links to foreign jihadists. Also on Tuesday this week a copycat bulldozer terrorist?yet another East Jerusalem Arab?wounded twenty-four in Jerusalem before being shot. Implications: 1. In all these cases the terrorists or would-be terrorists took advantage of Israel?s adherence to the highest Western standards of individual freedom. East Jerusalem Arabs, even though they reject citizenship, have Israeli ID cards that allow them free movement in Israel, and both the yeshiva and bulldozer terrorists made full use of this privilege. Israel also grants full religious freedom, and the six Al Qaeda-linked plotters took advantage of this to hold their cell meetings on the Temple Mount, where Israel not only accords Muslims freedom of worship but allows the Muslim Wakf to administer the site and has only a limited security presence. As for the two university students, under normal circumstances their ability as members of a religio-ethnic minority to study in their country?s universities would be unremarkable. Students at Hebrew University, though, said they weren?t surprised by the arrests because of the ?atmosphere of radicalism? on the campus. A poll last year found that 33% of Israeli Arab high school and college graduates are Holocaust deniers. Under such circumstances, Israel will have to decide at what point granting rights becomes suicidal. It would be reasonable, at least, to revoke the East Jerusalem Arabs? identity cards since their free movement in the country spells a clear and present danger; they would then have to apply for permits like West Bank Arabs and could be much better monitored. Israel is not yet likely, though, to take even such minimal measures because of external opinion and internal left-leaning opinion. 2. Israel?s intertwined security challenges include: external state threats mainly from Iran and Syria, external (or semi-external) nonstate threats mainly from Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza (but also Al Qaeda and others), semi-internal nonstate threats from various terror groups on the West Bank, and steadily increasing internal threats from the Israeli Arab population. Under such precarious conditions, anyone sincerely and rationally concerned for Israel?s welfare would want to see it retain a maximal security presence in the West Bank, especially since West Bank Arabs and Israeli Arabs have often collaborated in terror attacks and the latter are a natural conduit for the former. Unsurprisingly, none of this impresses, for example, British prime minister Gordon Brown who, in Israel this week, made a big pitch for Israel to remove West Bank checkpoints while promising additional aid to the terrorism-cultivating Palestinian Authority. 3. Also this week outgoing Israeli UN ambassador Danny Gillerman expressed concern that a nuclear-armed Iran could supply Hamas or Hezbollah with weapons of mass destruction. He?s, of course, right, but the threat goes beyond either nuclear-armed Iran or Hamas and Hezbollah. A situation in which Israeli Arab citizens are already linking up to Al Qaeda portends possible catastrophic attacks up to and including WMDs. In such a reality, talk about ?peace with the Palestinians? is not only obsolete but diverts attention from the growing problem of conflict with the Israeli Arabs. P. David Hornik is a freelance writer and translator living in Tel Aviv. He blogs at http://pdavidhornik.typepad.com/. He can be reached at pdavidh2001 at yahoo.com. 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one _here_ (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/1cd86121/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 25 05:34:41 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:34:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Okay, so what's left to clarify? Message-ID: >From the Lekarev Report of today... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch The Lekarev Report 22 Tammuz 5768 July 25, 2008 Shabbat Shalom 'Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: When ye pass over the Jordan into the land of Canaan, you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their idols, and demolish all their high places. And you shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for to you have I given the land to possess it. Bamidbar/Numbers 33:51-53 **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/763da4e0/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Jul 25 05:58:46 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:58:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham In-Reply-To: <934601.96113.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <934601.96113.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c901c8ee45$6d878050$0400a8c0@marvin> Tracy, Was not the circumcision the sign of being in the covenant.? Therefore, it was given to the males at eight days old. They had no choice, they were just brought in to the covenant by their parents. If they were in the covenant then they were "saved' and a part of the nation of Israel. Were as the nations did not have salvation because they were not in the covenant. The nations could be in the covenant, but then they would have to convert and be circumcised. This seems to have been the big debate in the N.T. times. Do these Gentiles who are turning to God have to be circumcised? Jesus told the women. You know not what you worship, we know what we worship, for Salvation is of the Jews. A Rabbi once made the statement that the Jews are born with salvation but can loose it, were as the gentiles are born with out but can obtain it. Joshua 5 records were the LORD told Joshua to circumcise all the Israelites born in the wilderness, then the LORD said this day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt. According to Genesis 17 the Almighty ordered and proscribed circumcision as a way for Abram to join and keep the covenant and Abraham became a father of many nations. This covenant was made between the Almighty and Abraham and Abrahams seed after him. The almighty gave Abraham the land for an everlasting possession. The man that is not circumcised... that soul shall be cut off form among the / his people. I would venture to say if Abraham complained to God about the pain and refused to take part in the circumcision of himself and his children he would have been on the outside looking in. I have to throw this in... I find it humorous when people who have went there own way and not follow God's way complain about how hard things are and they say, "You just down understand.. You just don't know what I have been through, you just don't know what has happened in my life". I say... I don't need to know... all I do know is that it's all about making choices. Follow God or follow your own way. The Torah teaches two ways... One is death / curse's and the other is life ... choose life!! God told us what to do with the Hebrew males and even the slaves and strangers bought with money, but it seems to have slipped my mind were he told us what to do with Abrahams spiritual children. (If there is such a thing?) However, we can understand the tremendous debate this created in the first century. Although, circumcision may not be for "salvation", If your of Abraham's seed you will be "cut off" with out it. The language as best as I can understand, is fairly strong and to the point of - exterminate. Shalom, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham There is a difference between Abram & Abraham. Abram walked with HaShem. Abram entered a new status, a new name, a new sign - circumcision. He was given the commission to create a Priestly Nation on behalf of all other nations. To preserve "The Way" and promote it among the 70 nations. His new status did not "save" him - it gave him a special calling. Abram was righteous and walked with HaShem before he became Abraham. Even so, one does not have to become part of the Priestly Nation to be "saved". However, if he feels called to walk in this special calling, then, he may be circumcised, and minister in that capacity. So, in my view, circumcision, was not for "salvation" but for a specific calling among all nations. What do ye think, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/4bf6f753/attachment.html From ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com Fri Jul 25 07:32:29 2008 From: ROSS.NICHOLS at GAPAC.com (Nichols, Ross K.) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:32:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones Message-ID: I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones. Today is Brian's birthday. Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. He is truly a humble servant. So on this day I just wanted to say Happy Birthday Brian! Send him a happy birthday note today. He also made these lists possible! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office - 225.654.1749 Cellular - 225.588.1575 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/8099e14a/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Fri Jul 25 08:33:28 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:33:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones References: Message-ID: <006501c8ee5b$06354c50$6400a8c0@davesbook> My hats off to ya Brian.........Thanks for who you are! (stay that way) dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: United Israel ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; Brian Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:32 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones. Today is Brian's birthday. Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. He is truly a humble servant. So on this day I just wanted to say Happy Birthday Brian! Send him a happy birthday note today. He also made these lists possible! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office - 225.654.1749 Cellular - 225.588.1575 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/d9af910c/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jul 25 08:33:47 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:33:47 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: Hi Brian: I don't mean to give you a mental block, but my view of Christianity is a mixture of good and evil. Many Christians I have met have a right heart but have bought into the whole Christian package and unaware of many lies within the package. The fact that you are searching for the truth is a good sign and demonstrates you are not satisfied with the Gentile packaging of the Christian message. Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/6f8a56b7/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Brian McFarlane" Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:09:04 +1000 Size: 5449 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/6f8a56b7/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 08:44:51 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:44:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BRIAN!!!!! Message-ID: MAY YOU HAVE A WONDERFULLY BLESSED BIRTHDAY, BRIAN!!!! Thank you so much for who you are and all that you do to bring blessings upon so many. May this day be filled with happiness, and may the love of HaSHem wrap around you, and keep you safe, Dear One. Best wishes to you and Joy Beth on this special day and always, Avigail/Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/b65f5cdd/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jul 25 08:46:49 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <608316.36339.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Happy Birthday, dear Brian, with much appreciation for all you do! Kind regards, Helen "Nichols, Ross K." wrote: I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones. Today is Brian?s birthday. Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. He is truly a humble servant. So on this day I just wanted to say Happy Birthday Brian! Send him a happy birthday note today. He also made these lists possible! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office ? 225.654.1749 Cellular ? 225.588.1575 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/ba469b09/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Fri Jul 25 09:03:20 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 09:03:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <208BCE41272D47B5888AF1DA6014AA01@sherryPC> HAPPY BIRTHDAY BRIAN! Love and blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: United Israel ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ; Brian Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 7:32 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones. Today is Brian's birthday. Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. He is truly a humble servant. So on this day I just wanted to say Happy Birthday Brian! Send him a happy birthday note today. He also made these lists possible! Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office - 225.654.1749 Cellular - 225.588.1575 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.5/1571 - Release Date: 7/24/2008 5:42 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/5ab60ebf/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 25 09:18:07 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:18:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CABC7864AFD7B0-AD8-DD0@webmail-md11.sysops.aol.com> Happy Birthday Brian!!!??? Yom Huledet Sameach!!!!!!!!???? Until 120, at least? :-) ????????????Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Nichols, Ross K. To: United Israel ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org; Brian Sent: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 8:32 am Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones.? Today is Brian?s birthday. Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. ? He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. He is truly a humble servant.? So on this day I just wanted to say Happy Birthday Brian! ? Send him a happy birthday note today.? He also made these lists possible! ? Shalom, Ross ? ? Ross K. Nichols Production Leader FPFP Office ? 225.654.1749 Cellular ? 225.588.1575 ? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/9317df13/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 09:24:42 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:24:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Testimony at the UN - UN Watch In-Reply-To: <48897F58.4000505@westnet.com.au> References: <48897F58.4000505@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thank you, Joe! Your words and the articles and videos you send are always so very appreciated. As this video vividly depicts, the nations are aligning themselves against THE ALMIGHTY G-D OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB. May we adhere to Him as never before!!!!! Shabbat Shalom, Avigail/Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 3:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Testimony at the UN - UN Watch Shabbat Shalom Chaverim, Beware the anti-Shema ites in the UN. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=3698367 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/b977ceaf/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jul 25 12:03:16 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:03:16 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200807251703.m6PH3Enw004234@mail202c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/31523234/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 12:41:30 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham Message-ID: <833530.29172.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Marvin for your response. My understanding may not be perfect, but this is how I understand these things. ? Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek and Abram were in covenant with G-d, walking with G-d...they were circumcised of heart. ? Abram was called to become Abraham to establish a nation, which would be a special, a particular people,? And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. ? ??? ??? Exo 15:27And they came to Elim, where weretwelve (12) wells of water, and threescore and ten (70) palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters. This was a visual representation of the role of Nation of Israel (12 Tribes) among the 70 Nations of the world. The 70 Nations were to bless Abraham/Israel and receive its ministry on their behalf. The 70 Nations were to continue in the Adamic/Noachic Covenant, which it already had - be spiritual circumcised. The 12 Tribes (plus any who wished to dwell [ger toshav] with them?in the Land were to be physically circumcised and become part of the Priestly Nation - and there would be one law for both The Native Born and The Immigrant from the other 70 Nations). One did not have to become?become?physically circumcised and move to the Priest?Land to have a relationship with G-d. Once Israel left the the wilderness and entered their Priestly Land they had to resume with The Priestly Sign of The Priestly Covenant - physical circumcision. They/our fathers had enhanced obligations, which could ONLY be carried out in The Priestly Land. These issues?were THE DEBATE during the first century among Beit Hillel as opposed to Beit Shammai & Zealot & Priestly Allies who controlled the Jerusalem/Judean institutions of the first century. Beit Shammai & Company believed that one could not be saved unless he was Circumcised and kept the Law (the enhanced Priestly Nation Law). The Jewish Netsarim, though forced to follow this 1st Century National Halacha (the 18 Edicts of Shammai), were shown by G-d that this was erroneous, and adjusted?their stance (Acts 10, 11, 15).?Paul's?Epistle to the Galations was written, apparently, just shortly before the Council of Acts 15. These are the issues surrounding that Epistle, quite extensively misunderstood, to be sure. The issue of compulsive circumcision for salvation for the G-dfearing of these 70 Root Nations. The Yavneh Council followed suit in 80 c.e. and abolished the 18 Edicts of Shammai. As shown in The Book of Hosea, The 10 Tribes were removed from the Priestly Covenant, scattered to the Nations, and assimilated. We,?descendents of the 10 Tribes,?were, re-attached, along with other Gentile G-dfearers,?to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - as Nations/Gentiles/or, G-dfearers among the Nations. As the revival of The 10 Tribes begin, we begin preparing for the journey back to The Priestly Land. But, all The Nations are not going to move to Eretz Israel, though they will receive the ministry and keep the Covenant that is applicable to them - including, Sabbath, Feast of Tabernacles, etc., etc. What we have to contend with are the ideas of Dual Complimentary Covenants that run side by side, or a Narrowing Covenant that excludes the Covenants that preceded it. Note: There were Covenants within The Abrahamic/12 Tribe Sinai Covenant:? #1) Aaronic, #2) Levitical, #3) Davidic, etc. These were Complimentary Covenants. I assume that we could say that even, the Adamic/Noachic Covenant, becomes subsumed within The Abrahamic/12 Tribe Sinai Covenant - but, that does not nullify the prior Covenants, does it? Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:58:46 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham Tracy, ? Was not the circumcision the sign of being in the covenant.? ?Therefore, it was given to the males at eight days old. They had no choice, they were just brought in to the covenant by their parents.?? If ?they were in the covenant then they were ?saved? and a part of the nation of Israel .?? Were as the nations did not have salvation because they were not in the covenant.? ?The nations could be in the covenant, but then they would have to convert and be circumcised.? This seems to have been the big debate in the N.T. times. Do these Gentiles who are turning to God have to be circumcised?? Jesus told the women. You know not what you worship, we know what we worship, for Salvation is of the Jews.??? A Rabbi once made the statement that the Jews are born with salvation but can loose it, ?were as the gentiles are born with out but can obtain it. ??Joshua 5 records were the LORD told Joshua to circumcise all the Israelites born in the wilderness, then the LORD said this day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt . According to Genesis 17 the Almighty ordered and proscribed circumcision as a way for Abram to join and keep the covenant and Abraham became a father of many nations.? This covenant was made between the Almighty and Abraham and Abrahams seed after him.? The almighty gave Abraham the land for an everlasting possession.? The man that is not circumcised?.. that soul shall be cut off form among the / his ?people.??? I would venture to say if Abraham complained to God about the pain and refused to take part in the circumcision of himself and his children he would have been on the outside looking in.?? I have to throw this in?..?? I find it humorous when people who have went there own way and not follow God?s way complain about how hard things are and they say, ?You just down understand?.? You just don?t know what I have been through, you just don?t know what has happened in my life?.?? I say?..?? I don?t need to know?..? all I do know is that it?s all about making choices.?? Follow God or follow your own way.?? The Torah teaches two ways?..? One is death / curse?s and the other is life ?..? choose life!! ? God told us what to do with the Hebrew males and even the slaves and strangers bought with money, but it seems to have slipped my mind were he told us what to do with Abrahams spiritual children. (If there is such a thing?) ??However, we can understand the tremendous debate this created in the first century.? Although, circumcision may not be for ?salvation?, If your of Abraham?s seed you will be ?cut? off? with out it.? The language as best as I can understand, is fairly strong and to the point of? - exterminate. ? Shalom, ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham ? There is a difference between Abram & Abraham. ? Abram walked with HaShem. ? Abram entered a new status, a new name, a new sign - circumcision. He was given the commission to create a Priestly Nation on behalf of all other nations. To preserve "The Way" and promote it among the 70 nations. His new status did not "save" him - it gave him a special calling. ? Abram was righteous and walked with HaShem before he became Abraham. Even so, one does not have to become part of the Priestly Nation to be "saved". However, if he feels called to walk in this special calling, then, he may be circumcised, and minister in that capacity. ? So, in my view, circumcision, was not for "salvation" but for a specific calling among all nations. ? What do ye think, ? Tracy ? ??????? Exo? 19:6 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/2c5776d5/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 13:46:26 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 11:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <331207.57490.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Brian for the compliments. One additional note underlined, bold, and in blue notice. HaShem's Grace summarized: ? Whom HaShem ... ? (1) Foreknew before the foundation of the world, He ? (2) Predestined -?that is, He made an appointment for each one to be ? (3) Called out of the moral darkness of the nations, and because of our response of faith?to Him and?His promises, He ? (4) Justified us (that is, He forgave us and wiped the slate clean) and?entered into a relationship with us that brings about our ? (5) Sanctification (our Holiness) makes us holy in heart and character)(this is where Clyde is using his term, 2nd Level of Justification) ? This is where Zachariah and Elizabeth were, righteous [just] before HaShem, walking in all?His commands and ordinances of blamelessly [Luke 1:6].)? HaShem, throughout our life, is writing His Torah (according to our particular Covenant Status-see Abram & Abraham topic) upon our heart and His Love in the chapters of our life. We learn to hate evil and love good.?We graduate from one level of maturity to another striving for perfection in Heart, Soul, and Works. He ? (6) Anoints us with power, each in different ways, to participate with Him in the?Calling, Justifying, and Santifying of His other children throughout the world. Like an adopted child, we are trained to walk with Our Father, and then, we?die...but, HaShem has marvelous plans for us. At some point in the future, He has promised our Bodily Resurrection and ? (7) Glorification in the Olam haBa - the Age to Come. Wherein we are no longer subject to death. We live happily ever after. The First and only one to reach this state,?thus far , is ? (8) Yeshua ben David, and he is called the Firstborn from the dead. By perceiving this, it gives us much peace. In this state, Yeshua is called "the hope of glory", or, the hope of our own Glorification. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:09:04 AM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams G'day Tracy and Clyde, Thanks for your responses. It is good to know we are all talking the same language. Tracy, I especially liked your clear delineation, it is great. Clyde, I always get a bit of a mental block when you bag Christianity, but I guess that is because I had determined that Christian theological teaching is not the same as what the Bible (both Testaments) says. Currently I am reading books by Bruce Chilton and Brad Young. These two writers confirm for me that my decision to gain a clearer perspective of Jesus is a right one, but as yet I am not convinced that I need to sever my church connections. Time alone will determine God's will for me in that area. ?Once again, thanks for your responses. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/40500c38/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 25 15:00:06 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:00:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams In-Reply-To: <331207.57490.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <072520082000.1842.488A30C6000278C50000073222230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> ... somehow I don't think the child-like faith Yeshua taught requires a theology degree to understand or explain... "The law of YHVH is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YHVH is sure, making wise the simple." In light of the proceeding discussions, I certainly qualify as simple... -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks Brian for the compliments. One additional note underlined, bold, and in blue notice. HaShem's Grace summarized: Whom HaShem ... (1) Foreknew before the foundation of the world, He (2) Predestined - that is, He made an appointment for each one to be (3) Called out of the moral darkness of the nations, and because of our response of faith to Him and His promises, He (4) Justified us (that is, He forgave us and wiped the slate clean) and entered into a relationship with us that brings about our (5) Sanctification (our Holiness) makes us holy in heart and character)(this is where Clyde is using his term, 2nd Level of Justification) This is where Zachariah and Elizabeth were, righteous [just] before HaShem, walking in all His commands and ordinances of blamelessly [Luke 1:6].) HaShem, throughout our life, is writing His Torah (according to our particular Covenant Status-see Abram & Abraham topic) upon our heart and His Love in the chapters of our life. We learn to hate evil and love good. We graduate from one level of maturity to another striving for perfection in Heart, Soul, and Works. He (6) Anoints us with power, each in different ways, to participate with Him in the Calling, Justifying, and Santifying of His other children throughout the world. Like an adopted child, we are trained to walk with Our Father, and then, we die...but, HaShem has marvelous plans for us. At some point in the future, He has promised our Bodily Resurrection and (7) Glorification in the Olam haBa - the Age to Come. Wherein we are no longer subject to death. We live happily ever after. The First and only one to reach this state, thus far , is (8) Yeshua ben David, and he is called the Firstborn from the dead. By perceiving this, it gives us much peace. In this state, Yeshua is called "the hope of glory", or, the hope of our own Glorification. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:09:04 AM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams G'day Tracy and Clyde, Thanks for your responses. It is good to know we are all talking the same language. Tracy, I especially liked your clear delineation, it is great. Clyde, I always get a bit of a mental block when you bag Christianity, but I guess that is because I had determined that Christian theological teaching is not the same as what the Bible (both Testaments) says. Currently I am reading books by Bruce Chilton and Brad Young. These two writers confirm for me that my decision to gain a clearer perspective of Jesus is a right one, but as yet I am not convinced that I need to sever my church connections. Time alone will determine God's will for me in that area. Once again, thanks for your responses. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/42a0f1d1/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Jul 25 15:19:00 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:19:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Brian Jones In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What a pleasure as my first official act having landed in Israel and driven to Jerusalem, with the Sabbath already here, to wish Brian a wonderful Birthday and Kim all best for the precious new one born into this world. Maybe both live to see the Kingdom of God fill the earth as the waters cover the sea!! James On Jul 25, 2008, at 8:32 AM, Nichols, Ross K. wrote: > I am at work this morning, but wanted my first act of the day to be > dedicated to my good friend Brian Jones. Today is Brian?s birthday. > Aside from being a great friend, Brian has dedicated his life to the > cause of spreading Torah Faith. His work is unmatched. He works with > Rabbis, scholars, and various Bible teachers to assist them (us) in > getting the word out in the form of audio, video and writing. He > manages websites, forums, webcasting / podcasting, etc. > > He is one of the most talented and likable men on the planet today. > He is truly a humble servant. So on this day I just wanted to say > Happy Birthday Brian! > > Send him a happy birthday note today. He also made these lists > possible! > > Shalom, Ross > > > Ross K. Nichols > Production Leader FPFP > Office ? 225.654.1749 > Cellular ? 225.588.1575 > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/dbc45c2c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 25 17:09:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:09:49 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "He who hesitates..." Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, Many of you have known that I had been interested in having "my own" Tartan. I asked for, and received quite a few suggestions from you folks...all beautiful, all good ideas. But I hesitated, other priorities got in the way, etc. And now...someone has beat me to it! There is actually a registered, official 'Jewish Tartan' (see below).... Not that someone will take me to a Bet Din (Rabbinical Court), if I get caught wearing a pattern other then the 'Jewish Tartan,' but still, I should've picked one! :-) :-) LOL Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch Sound the Bagpipes: Scots Design Jewish Tartan By Beth Schwartzapfel Thu. Jul 17, 2008 AUTHENTIC: Rabbi Mendel Jacobs displays a certificate from the Scottish Tartans Authority and a piece of fabric featuring the design of the first official Jewish Tartan. Article tools * Text size: _Larger_ (http://www.forward.com/articles/sound-the-bagpipes-scots-design-jewish-tartan-02197/#) | _Smaller_ (http://www.forward.com/articles/sound-the-bagpipes-scots-design-jewish-tartan-02197/#) * _Print this article_ (http://www.forward.com/articles/sound-the-bagpipes-scots-design-jewish-tartan-02197/#) * _Email this article_ (http://www.forward.com/email-article/sound-the-bagpipes-scots-design-jewish-tartan-02197/) * _Other articles by Beth Schwartzapfel_ (http://www.forward.com/authors/beth-schwartzapfel/) * _More in The Shmooze_ (http://www.forward.com/sections/the-shmooze/) Rabbi Mendel Jacobs was never much of a kilt man. Although he is the only Scottish-born rabbi living in Scotland, he had always preferred suits to the traditional dress of his home country. Until now. The Scottish Tartans Authority recently registered the only official Jewish tartan, which was designed with Jacobs?s input. He plans to wear a kilt in the Jewish Tartan pattern to his sister?s wedding in November. Tartan is the Scottish word for ?plaid.? Traditionally, various clans or regions each had a unique pattern; the MacDonalds or the MacKenzies would pass down the pattern of their ancestors through the generations. The Tartan playing field has widened considerably in recent years: The Tartans Authority has registered patterns for Sikhs, Chinese, the state of Indiana and the Fire Department of New York?s bagpipe band. But it wasn?t until last year that Jacobs, a Glasgow Lubavitch rabbi, decided it was time for the members of his congregation and beyond to be able to ?combine their Scottish heritage and Jewish heritage together.? ?People connect with their Judaism in different ways,? he told The Shmooze. ?They might not wear a regular kippah, but they might wear a Jewish Tartan kippah.? The Tartan is made with 100% wool, in keeping with the biblical prohibition against wearing sha?atnez, or a wool-linen mix. (It may be more than 90 degrees in parts of the United States this summer, but Jacobs said it never gets too hot to wear wool in Scotland.) All the elements of the pattern were chosen for their symbolic significance. The central colors are blue and white, representing the flags of both Israel and Scotland, and the design incorporates gold, silver and red, which represent the Ark, the adornment on the Torah and the Kiddush wine. Jacobs has set up a Web site and an eBay store to peddle goods made with the Tartan print. Profits, he said, go to Chabad of Scotland and to other charitable organizations. Besides the hand-pleated kilts, which cost ?330 (around $650) and up, gents can order cummerbunds, ties and ?fishtail dress trousers,? among other sartorial items. Pens, mouse pads and Titleist golf balls ? all tartan printed ? are also available. Jacobs said he has shipped upward of 500 items since the Tartan debuted in May, to places as far away as Peru. In the works is a shot glass featuring the Tartan pattern and a phrase that plays on the Scottish word for ?lake? and the Hebrew ?To life?: ?loch chaim!? **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/68148623/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jul 25 17:19:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:19:18 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] VERY thought provoking; Rav Binny on Parshat Matot Message-ID: Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality by Rav Binny Freedman, Director Portion of Matot (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001SFJiWLrotpmnZjmLxVdW3eyRoWBAWHmk5rI6Np4sUjeEnpFXgsKVOlKWG9MyMAr5HRAkq6yjbTUhusotfx20WvpD2A-gvfr07qRGZBHyqMsBZrWvUeXuMp3miw0_Afq -fgDnhhk-ZFMCkG6rwA1Fj_vHOpHJAgob) In 1986, an Israeli fighter-plane was shot down over Lebanon, and the pilot and navigator, safely ejected from the burning plane, found themselves trapped behind enemy lines. In one of the most daring missions of the war, an Israeli search and rescue team flew in under heavy fire, and in a classic retrieval operation, with an Israeli commando suspended from a helicopter by a cable, literally plucked the pilot from the jaws of the approaching enemy only eight hundred yards away. His co-pilot already surrounded by an enemy that was only fifty yards away, could not be rescued. Ask any Israeli air force pilot what his ultimate nightmare is, and he will tell you of Ron Arad, the navigator of that flight who had to watch his co-pilot whisked away to safety, while he was left behind. Years later, Ron Arad is still missing. This mission raises one of the classic questions in military operations: at what point is the individual expendable, for the sake of the many? Does saving the life of one Israeli airman justify risking the lives of many others? The lives of a dozen men, not to mention tens of millions of dollars of vital and sophisticated Israeli equipment in the form of helicopters and support, were all put at tremendous risk in the mission to bring one man home. No strategy or mission plan could ever justify such a decision. And yet, if you ask any Israeli soldier, from the army's commander in chief, all the way down to the infantry man alone in his fox hole, they would all agree, that the IDF's policy of never leaving a man behind makes that not only a justifiable, but even an essential part of the Israeli military. Where does this insistence of the value of the individual, even at the expense of the many, hail from? There was a time when being Jewish represented how unified and at-one we could really be. In this week's portion, Matot, the Torah describes how the Jewish people came together as one unit to wage war against her enemy Midyan. Each tribe sent her men forward to become one solid Israel defense force, over three thousand years ago. I remember one Shabbat during the Lebanon war; my older brother and I were finally both out on a weekend pass at the same time. He was serving in the Paratroopers 202nd battalion which was then stationed in Tsidon, south of Beirut in what became known as the infamous 'death way' (Tsir Ha'Mavet), and I was down from forward positions in the Bekaa valley opposite the Syrians. It was Shabbat afternoon, and we were sitting on the balcony of our parents' apartment in Jerusalem, when we started hearing a strange wailing sound in the distance. Curious as to the source of this odd sound we decided to go for a walk and investigate. Walking through Jerusalem's independence park, we turned a corner at the bottom of Hillel Street and came upon a most comic sight. On the street outside the Beit Agron theatre (which had begun showing movies on Friday nights) were three very distinct groups: On one sidewalk opposite the theatre, there was a sea of black coats and hats, probably in the vicinity of five hundred or so Ultra orthodox (whatever that means!) men who were all yelling "SHABBOS!" repeatedly, in unison, at the tops of their lungs. They were apparently demonstrating their opposition to movies being shown in the holy city of Jerusalem on Shabbat, and were obviously the source of the strange wailing sounds we had been hearing all the way across the park. Across the street, on the opposite sidewalk in front of the theatre, was a much smaller group of about fifty or so people mostly clad in t-shirts and jeans, many holding signs supporting freedom of expression and the like. This group, while not as loud as the sea of black across the way, were yelling with just as much determination things like: 'go to the army!' or 'No to religious coercion'. And in the middle of the road, some mounted on horses, were a large number of Israeli police, trying to keep things calm. To the two of us, both dressed in white Shabbat shirts, slacks and Kippot on our heads, the whole thing looked pretty comical, until one of the guys in t-shirt and jeans, seeing our Kippot (religious head coverings or Yarmulkes) yelled out: ' Why don't you go join the army or go stand with your buddies over there!' And then it wasn't so funny... So how did we get so fractured? The dream has always seemed so wonderful, and so obviously right: "Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh La'Zeh" "All Israel are responsible one for another" We are meant to feel that when one of us is in pain, all of us are in pain. In fact, that is what the word "Arev" or 'mixed in' signifies: we are all part of one great mixture. So where did it all go so wrong? There is a message, hidden in this week's portion, Matot, which may provide not only a clue as to the problem, but perhaps as well, a remedy for the possible solution. Until now, it appears that the Torah, and in fact the entire book of Bamidbar (Numbers), is dedicated to building a unified nation, whose focus seems to be the Mishkan (Tabernacle) representing G-d. There is one army, and whenever the Jews are counted, they are for the most part counted as one Nation. But when Moshe prepares to wage war on the nation of Midyan, in response to that nation's attempt to destroy the Jewish people, he does not command the people to 'rise as one' in order to defeat the common enemy. Instead, he tells the Jewish people: "... put forth men from amongst you for the army... a thousand from each tribe, a thousand from each tribe, for all the tribes of Israel, shall you send to the army." (Bamidbar 31:3-4) Why are we suddenly dividing Israel into separate tribes? Why isn't there simply a command to the entire Jewish people to gather the 'Israeli' army together? In fact, it is interesting to note that when Moshe addresses the people regarding this commandment to wage war against the Midianites, he does not address the heads of the tribes as one might expect if this were an attempt to garner support on a tribal level. Instead, the Torah tells us that Moshe speaks "el ha'am", "to the nation". So if Moshe is speaking to the entire Jewish people, why are they commanded top send one thousand men from each tribe? Why not the entire army? After all, when waging war, more is always better, right? So if the Jewish people at this point have a standing army ofsix hundred thousand men (11:21), why would they only draft twelve thousand? Even more interesting, this is also the first time that even the tribe ofLevi , normally excluded from military operations , bears an equal responsibility to fight (as Rashi, quoting the Sifri, points out here)! Why are the men of the tribe of Levi sent out to fight? Since when are the Levites a fighting force? Especially since this can't be a desperate call to arms which includes everyone as part of an emergency situation; after all, in the end only twelve thousand men will go to battle. Indeed, until now, the tribe of Levi was not even counted for military service: "But the tribe of Levi do not count, and do not take a census of them, from amongst the children of Israel. And you shall appoint the Levites over the Tabernacle of testimony (the Mishkan Ha'Edut)..." (Bamidbar 1: 49-50) So why are Levite men suddenly needed to do battle here? And it is interesting to note that this new focus on tribal identity (read state rights?) continues into next week's portion Massei, (36: 2-9) when we are told that the inheritance of land is by tribe, and that: "Inheritance (of land) shall not turn from one tribe to another tribe, for the tribes of the children of Israel shall cleave, every man to his own inheritance." (36: 9) Incredibly, after spending the entire book of Bamidbar forging a rag tag band of former slaves into one unified people, the concluding verses of the book seem to be throwing us back into the violent world of tribalism and territorialism! This is especially challenging when considering the fact that the dangers of tribalism were abundantly clear to Moshe as witness his strong response to the desire of two of the tribes (Gad and Re'uven) to settle lands east of the Jordan River: "And Moshe said to the children of Gad, and the children of Re'uven: 'will your brothers come to do battle while you sit here?" (32: 6) And, even stronger, a few verses later, Moshe evokes the sin of the spies, suggesting (32:14) that this desire to separate from the rest of the people will tear the Nation apart: "Behold! You have risen up in place of your fathers, a society of sinful people...." How could the Torah conclude the book of Bamidbar, dedicated to building a Nation that will be a light for the entire world, by fostering such a divisive, destructive force as tribalism? Indeed, one wonders: why the need for tribes in the first place? Why, in the formation of the family of Israel, long before the Nation of the children of Israel was born, was there a need to divide the brothers into separate tribes? Why couldn't we just be one big happy family? After all, isn't this divisive tribal identity part of the same mistake that caused the brothers to be jealous of Joseph to the point that they were willing to sell their own brother as a slave, which was what caused us to end up as slaves in Egypt in the first place? In truth, there is something happening here that represents a fundamental change not just in the introduction of the individual identity of the tribes, but in the very way we perceive tribes at all. It is here in the book of Bamidbar we are introduced to an entirely new concept: the concept of 'Mateh'. Until now, the word used in the Torah for tribes is 'Shevet'. Only in the book of Numbers do we first see the tribe as a 'Mateh'. In fact the concept of a tribe as a Mateh is not used once in the Torah outside the book of Bamidbar! (And in Bamidbar, the word Mateh appears nearly one hundred times...) Perhaps part of the purpose of the book of Bamidbar is the construction of a new model: the Mateh. All of which begs the question: what is the fundamental difference between the notion of a Shevet, and the idea of a Mateh (both words meaning 'tribe')? Rav Weinberg (in his Frameworks) based, I believe, on Rav Dessler in the Michtav Me'Eliahu, points out that both these words are a form of stick. A Shevet is a club, which was actually used to great effect by the Shotrim (possibly the equivalent of Jewish policemen) and their Egyptian taskmasters, in effectively controlling their slaves. The Mateh, on the other hand is something we are quite familiar with as the staff used by Aaron and Moshe. And perhaps that is precisely the point: maybe the Jewish people (and through them the world) needed to change their perception from whatever Shevet represents, and discover the beauty and the power of the Mateh. A Shevet is in the end, a weapon of war. It is a club, used for violence, to control and dominate, as well as to fend off would be attackers. Indeed the English word for Shevet, club, is itself a group which is designed to exclude others, such as a frequent flyers club which creates a culture of those that are 'in', and those that are not. If you are not 'part of the club', then you just don't get it. A Mateh on the other hand, is a staff, which is a stick used for support, representing leadership and direction. Here too, the English word for Mateh is also a group of people, such as the staff of a camp or the general staff of the army. In this case, however, it is not an exclusive group, but rather one that comes to support the larger whole. The camp staff is not exclusive, even though it may be defined; its entire purpose is to act as a support and leadership for the entire population of the camp. And of course this is exactly the function of the stick we call a staff or a Mateh: this is not a stick one uses as a weapon; it is rather a stick one leans on for support. And maybe this distinction is the entire point. There is a movement in the world which seeks to do away with the value of the individual identity. Communism suggested that there are no individuals, there is only the state. John Lennon in his Imagine, suggests how wonderful it might be if there were no peoples, no religions, no borders, and no differences, "above us, only sky". But Judaism begs to differ, because within the context of the nation, it is critical that there always be a place for the individual. Building a nation does not exclude the possibility of the tribe, rather, the book of Bamidbar is dedicated to creating a place for each tribe (and alongside that, each individual) within the nation. Hence Bamidbar begins (1:2) with the command to name each individual within the context of their families. And this may well be the goal set already in the book of Shemot, which does not really translate as the accepted English 'Exodus', but actually means 'Names'. Because in Judaism, every individual has a name and every person has his or her place within the context of the whole. And the book of Bamidbar does not actually mean 'Numbers' which has become the accepted translation. In fact, 'Numbers' is precisely what the book of Bamidbar is not! Many historians believe that the actual creation of numbers as a system (at least in Near Eastern and Western civilization) may well have its roots in ancient Egypt, and one of the prevalent theories is that the Egyptians came up with numbers because they needed a system to keep track of their slaves. Thousands of years ago, one of the greatest civilizations in history, taught the world that a human being could become a number. And it isn't so long ago we discovered that the world has still not freed itself of this terrible message. Judaism on the other hand, suggests that a human being should never be a number. Indeed it is a Biblical prohibition to count another human being for precisely that reason; because every human being is a world, and should never be a number. But this idea is challenging when trying to build a nation. Because sometimes there is a need for each individual to put aside their own personal dreams and desires in service of the greater good. And yet, within that need lies great danger, because it is too easy for a nation to be built by crushing the rights and even the identity of any and every individual, in service of the state. This then, is the dichotomy which the Mateh seeks to resolve. The Jewish notion of a tribe as a Mateh, as opposed to a Shevet, teaches us to value the power and majesty of becoming one, with one dream and one purpose as a Nation, while never losing sight of the beauty value of each and every individual. A chain, after all, is only as strong as each link, yet at the same time if you spend a year on each link, you'll be long gone before you have ever forged a chain... Interestingly, it is in war, more than perhaps any other experience where the dangers and pitfalls of nationalism are greatest, and especially in a war such as the war against Midian here in this week's portion, which is presented as a need for the Jewish people to defend the name of G-d and respond to another nation that sought to destroy us. Americans are still struggling with the inevitable quashing of certain basic human rights that were the result of the war against terror that was the response to 9/11. Specifically here, then, it is the Matot-tribes that must learn to do battle together. And it is for this reason that so much emphasis is placed on the realization that not a single man was lost in the battle (31:49). To this day in Israel there is a powerful experience of national mourning over the loss of every individual, even while recognizing the needs of the entire Nation. All of which brings us back to this summer of 2005. Make no mistake about it; the Jewish people and the State of Israel are treading on dangerous ground. When Jews, in an attempt to fulfill what they believe is a National mission, can put aside the values and dreams and maybe even the individual rights of their fellow Jews, something is amiss. And if we are about to be witness to what may be the greatest destruction of Jewish communities by Jews in the land of Israel since the Romans put torch to the Temple two thousand years ago, then something is terribly wrong. But we need to take a closer look at the problem. The term for 'The Disengagement' being used in Israel is the 'Hitnatkut', which is a much more powerful word than disengaging. And if on a National level we are about to experience such a 'Hitnatkut' there is a message we are getting that we need to think about and be cognizant of. To be 'menutak' is much more tragic than just being disengaged. Menutak means to be cut off. When someone gets the phone for you and you get on the line wanting the other person to get off the phone so you can have a private conversation, you tell him: 'titnatek'; 'cut the line on your end'. If we are experiencing a 'cutting off' or an isolation, it is because as a people we have become cut off from one another. We have allowed ourselves to become our own islands of theology and principle, as well as geography and beliefs. We live in our little island communities, be they our homes, our synagogues, or even our Jewish organizations. In Israel, unfortunately, people live in communities defined as religious or secular, Orthodox, Ultra- Orthodox or Reform, Right wing or Left wing, Labor or Likud, and of course Jewish or Arab. We have, perhaps for many valid reasons, become cut off from one another, islands of ideals and philosophies. How many left wing Israelis have close right wing friends? How many Jews who define themselves as secular have close 'religious' friends? When was the last time you heard of Jews in black hats and coats sitting around sharing thoughts with their fellow Jews just back from the pub in Tel Aviv? Even the terrible labels necessary to make this point are themselves our own creation, perhaps bred of a millennium of exile. What indeed does it mean to be 'religious'? And how can a human being be defined as totally secular? I recall, prior to a huge multi-divisional exercise in the army, being approached by our Brigade commander after the Officers' security and safety briefing was completed a couple of hours of ahead of schedule. In the middle of the beautiful winter desert, he suddenly realized he had nearly a hundred high-ranking Israeli officers with nothing to do for the next two hours. So, being pretty much the only officer present with a Kippah on his head, he asked if perhaps I would lead everyone in a discussion. We decided to have a discussion about the challenges of the religious-secular divide in Israeli society. So I asked everyone to define themselves as religious or secular, and was shocked that over ninety percent of the officers actually defined themselves as secular. After a further five minutes of discussion, we agreed that the Hebrew word for secular, 'chiloni' based on its root 'chol', is actually the opposite of 'kadosh' or 'holy'. So I asked all of them whether they really thought that an Israeli Officer, wearing the rank and uniform of the Israeli Army in a modern day Jewish State of Israel, actively involved in defending the Jewish people against her enemies, could actually be devoid of all sanctity? If we are experiencing a Hitnatkut, and by no coincidence this is happening during the most painful period in the Jewish calendar, the three weeks of mourning, we all need to do some serious thinking. Two thousand years ago Josephus describes why it took three weeks from the time the Romans broke through the walls on the seventeenth day of Tammuz, until they burned the Temple on the ninth day of Av in August of the year seventy. It only takes ten minutes to walk from the Old City walls to the Temple Mount, but it took the Romans three weeks, because during this month they pillaged, raped, looted and butchered their way through the Jewish city of Jerusalem. In less than a month they murdered over one hundred thousand Jews, and this before there were machine guns and mortars, carbon monoxide vans and gas chambers; they did it with their hands. And here we are, two thousand years later, about to drag Jews out of their homes, destroy every last Synagogue, Jewish school and grave site that eight thousand people built with love for thirty years. And the overwhelming majority of Jews in Israel will never even have visited this beautiful community before it is gone. And it is so easy to blame everyone and anything; it's the politicians and the Leftists, or the right wing fanatics and the rabbis. It's the secular media or the corrupt government or the Europeans and the Americans, never mind the Arabs. But Jewish tradition has always viewed politics and military strategy as symptoms, not the cause. Two thousand years ago, the Rabbis in the Talmud did not blame the destruction on poor rebel strategy or corrupt Kohanim (priests). And they did not blame the Romans, nor even for that matter, G-d. The destruction of an independent Jewish nation in its homeland, they said, was the result of Sinat Chinam, or baseless hatred. The Netziv, (Naftali Tzvi Yehuda Berlin of Volozhin), in his introduction to the book of Bereishit (Genesis) suggests that Sinat Chinam is when we hate someone simply because their opinion is different from our own. This does not mean that we cannot agree to disagree, but it absolutely means that we can only disagree with someone after we first respect where their opinion is coming from. We can disagree with an opinion, but we must never stop respecting the person. After all, if every human being is created in the image of G-d, then there is always a Divine spark in each and every human being. Today, just like two thousand years ago, we have only ourselves to blame, because if this is happening, then all of us, and each one of us, have a lot of work to do. Shabbat Shalom from Jerusalem, Binny Freedman **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080725/bf8bc474/attachment.html From yisraelbenavraham25 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 26 18:13:45 2008 From: yisraelbenavraham25 at yahoo.com (Brian Phillips) Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 16:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject) Message-ID: <998143.16160.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yisraelbenavraham25 at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080726/cb18dc48/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 08:10:34 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 06:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross Message-ID: <522078.40520.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Ross, Please consider placing the written version of the dream, that you shared a couple of weeks ago, on line for all to see. I think that it, and the circumstances surrounding it being given to you by someone else, is quite significant in several ways.?I think others, especially Steve Mathe,?should be interested in seeing it and even hearing it in?the context in which it was given. The first 15 minutes will give you the context and the dream. Listen to the dream a few times, which is?a couple of?minutes long. To hear: Go to this?this link: http://arba4.com/listings/? scroll down to Ross's teaching: Journey Thru the Gospel - Fishers of Men?and click on play. Love & Prayers, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/2fc99db2/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Jul 27 10:17:41 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:17:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross Message-ID: Tracy, A little background is important here. Mark had the dream on the night of July 10th. Mark is an engineer that works in my department. He grew up in a Catholic home. While Mark and I work together every day, we have not had any extensive conversations about religion or Biblical topics. Everyone thinks of me as ? Jewish? to some degree because of my diet etc, but most leave it alone at that. On the morning of July 11th, Mark came in my office and what he told me, shook me to the core. He had a strange look on his face as he informed me that he had a dream about me last night. When he told me the dream I asked him to write it down. Below is the email containing his dream. He later confided to me that he dreams quite often and the dreams are usually descriptive and have meaning. _______________________________________________ From: Modenbach, Mark To: Nichols, Ross K. Sent: Fri Jul 11 16:27:01 2008 Subject: Mark Modenbach's dream on the night of 07/10/08 Ross, The stage was set in your office. You had just come back from a meeting and you looked deep I thought. I did not notice at first but your style of dress was different than your normal wear today. You were dressed in all black as if you were an extra in the ?Fiddler on the Roof.? As always in all my dreams you and I look the same age as we do now. As you paced your office back in forth, I entered to see what was the matter. I asked what the matter was and you said that it was time for you to do it. I asked, ?Do what?? You told me that you had to go to the Holy Land and unite the twelve tribes of Israel. I asked,? When were going to do this?? You said, ?In a year and a half.? ?How old would that make you? I asked. ?55,? you said intently. The scene ends with you walking out the door and me wondering how to fill this void. ____________________________________________________________________________ Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/986833a1/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Jul 27 11:00:04 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:00:04 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross Message-ID: Tracy, I also put up a blog entry on the dream. _http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/07/27/a-dream-for-me-uniting-the-tribes.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/2008/07/27/a-dream-for-me-uniting-the-tribes.htm) Perhaps someone out there will have some insight into this that I need. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/cc710737/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sun Jul 27 11:31:35 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:31:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross In-Reply-To: <522078.40520.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <522078.40520.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <488CA2E7.7060302@gninc.ca> Dear Tracy, Ross and all, before I may all at once be gone for a month or so. I have been going through an interesting vale of humiliation and inspiration at the same time, already for a while of late. I have been encouraged by many of you , even though we did not always see eye to eye with some. But that alone that we don't have to agree and can still communicate in love, is of astounding , not to be taken lightly worth. This seemingly opened a flood-gate of a chance for some one like me, an older man, quite well set in my ways, to be able to change my views, and actually see matters quite differently than in the past. This morning checking my e-mails, there was this one from the dialog list from you Tracy. For the last couple of weeks I did not even feel prompted to even listen to Ross's messages, even though I heard many of you seeming to be quit enriched by the messages from the Synagogue without walls. I was simply not drawn to your teaching Ross. To me, you, Ross, was just too freely and blindly trusting in the New Testament as inspired word of God, as we have it today. That was just the way it was branded into me for the last decade or so, it just turned me off. It seemed to me although I had nothing in particular against you Ross, but I thought you were just too churchy for me. (It may seem strange to you but I don't feel I need to even apologize for feeling that way, I think I was quite innocent there). I have nothing against you Ross, should you read this. In fact I was convinced that you were a teacher at heart, and true to what you believed as best I could discern it. I had never held you as a deceiver, or false teacher at heart. But that you maybe still believed many of the lies of our forefathers. But this all changed this morning, something caught my attention to want to hear what you Ross would have to say on Journey Thru the Gospel - Fishers of Men a message from you from a while back. I actually felt prompted to listen to it. And unless I am deceived, easily swayed, not uncommon to me, this time, (really for the first time ) I felt closely drawn to your message, and could take it as a message of hope for our time, led of the spirit of truth. ( I am a truth seeker). Tracy, a hearty thank you for this input to share it again. I had not heard it before. It has seemed to me that there are many in this group, including you, Ross now, as I can now see it, who are simply prompted of the holy Spirit to bring what they do. And also from other sources like Rabbi Lazer Brody etc. that have been such a blessing to me of late. I have had a tendency to feel like a worm in the past. I was not a learned man, I had made so many blunders in my life, (And I know that is all I am, a worm, if I build on my own merit or if I lean on the arm of flesh.) But Rabbi Lazer Brody teaches that the only way we can serve Hashem and our fellowmen is by believing in ourselves to fit in some where too. And that is also the only way to true happiness. Otherwise I would belittle my maker. I am very deeply blessed, although quite humbled as well, to have been a part of this list. At times I was so deeply stuck in earthly matters dealing with paying off debt, financially, that I thought I could not do justice to questions directed to me, please forgive me where I may have failed, and if you can be patient I may answer some of them yet. But as of now I am checking and deleting e-mails up to the middle of June somewhere. I think you all can get by quite well without me. But just so you know why I may be altogether silent for a while. I may be gone to the east coast for a month to help our oldest son take off a bumper crop of honey. That is a half way across Canada to get there by car, leaving somewhere in the beginning of August in about a week or two. Shalom Cornie Tracy Osborne wrote: > Dear Ross, > > Please consider placing the written version of the dream, that you > shared a couple of weeks ago, on line for all to see. I think that it, > and the circumstances surrounding it being given to you by someone > else, is quite significant in several ways. I think others, especially > Steve Mathe, should be interested in seeing it and even hearing it > in the context in which it was given. The first 15 minutes will give > you the context and the dream. Listen to the dream a few times, which > is a couple of minutes long. > > To hear: > > Go to this this link: http://arba4.com/listings/ scroll down to > Ross's teaching: Journey Thru the Gospel - Fishers of Men > and > click on play. > > Love & Prayers, > > Tracy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/c6f58106/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 27 18:25:52 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams Message-ID: <911810.39889.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> To continue..... The Foundation for such?concepts, which I highlighted earlier, comes from the Torah and the Prophets and is midrashed elsewhere. [If you have not read them yet, it might be?good for you to read at the bottom of this page first, and then, begin here.] These concepts are used in different contexts and combined variously; However, there is a systematic approach to observe and benefit from. ? Let us begin here, with YirmeYahu (Jeremiah), Chapter 1, Verse, 5 ? (1 & 2) Foreknew & Predestined [pre-appointed] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.? Jeremiah 1:5 ?JPS Version ? And the LORD God called unto the man... Genesis 3:9JPS Version(3) Called ....And Eli perceived that the LORD wascallingthe child. 1Samuel 3:8? JPS Version And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness [justified]. Genesis 15:6? JPS Version(4) Justified And enter not into judgment with Thy servant; for in Thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psalm 143:2? JPS Version Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu....against Job was his wrath kindled, becausehe justifiedhimself rather than God. Job 32:2?JPS Version In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Isaiah 45:25? JPS Version ? ?Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am the LORD whosanctifyyou.?Exodus 31:13? JPS Version(5 & 3)? Sanctification ?And he said: 'Peaceably; I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD;sanctifyyourselves and come with me to the sacrifice.' And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice. 1Samuel 16:5? JPS Version (6) Anoints Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head, and anointhim. Exodus 29:7? JPS Version And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell thee what thou shalt do; and thou shalt anointunto Me him whom I name unto thee.' 1 Samuel 16:3? JPS Version ?Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. 1Samuel 16:13JPS Version (7) Glorification But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I willraiseupunto them.Jeremiah 30:9? JPS VersionAfter two days will He revive us, on the third day He will raiseus up, that we may live in His presence.Hosea 6:2? JPS Version And I willraiseMe upa faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in My heart and in My mind;... 1Samuel 2:35? JPS Version He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces....Isaiah 25:8? JPS Version Thydeadmenshall live, together withmydeadbodyshall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is asthe dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.? Isaiah 26:19? JPS VersionI will raisethem upa prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18?? JPS Version ...because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for?He hath glorifiedthee. Isaiah 55:5?JPS VersionIf a man die, may heliveagain?Job 14:14? JPS Version glorifyMy glorious house. Isaiah 60:7? JPS VersionAll the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee; they shall come up with acceptance on Mine altar, and I will ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? _________________________________________________________________________________________ ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 2:46:26 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Adams ? ?HaShem's Grace summarized: ? Whom HaShem ... ? (1) Foreknew before the foundation of the world, He ? (2) Predestined -?that is, He made an appointment for each one to be ? (3) Called out of the moral darkness of the nations, and because of our response of faith?to Him and?His promises, He ? (4) Justified us (that is, He forgave us and wiped the slate clean) and?entered into a relationship with us that brings about our ? (5) Sanctification (our Holiness) makes us holy in heart and character)(this is where Clyde is using his term, 2nd Level of Justification) ? This is where Zachariah and Elizabeth were, righteous [just] before HaShem, walking in all?His commands and ordinances of blamelessly [Luke 1:6].)? HaShem, throughout our life, is writing His Torah (according to our particular Covenant Status-see Abram & Abraham topic) upon our heart and His Love in the chapters of our life. We learn to hate evil and love good.?We graduate from one level of maturity to another striving for perfection in Heart, Soul, and Works. He ? (6) Anoints us with power, each in different ways, to participate with Him in the?Calling, Justifying, and Santifying of His other children throughout the world. Like an adopted child, we are trained to walk with Our Father, and then, we?die...but, HaShem has marvelous plans for us. At some point in the future, He has promised our Bodily Resurrection and ? (7) Glorification in the Olam haBa - the Age to Come. Wherein we are no longer subject to death. We live happily ever after. The First and only one to reach this state,?thus far , is ? (8) Yeshua ben David, and he is called the Firstborn from the dead. By perceiving this, it gives us much peace. In this state, Yeshua is called "the hope of glory", or, the hope of our own Glorification. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 4:09:04 AM Subject: [Dialogue] About Adams G'day Tracy and Clyde, Thanks for your responses. It is good to know we are all talking the same language. Tracy, I especially liked your clear delineation, it is great. Clyde, I always get a bit of a mental block when you bag Christianity, but I guess that is because I had determined that Christian theological teaching is not the same as what the Bible (both Testaments) says. Currently I am reading books by Bruce Chilton and Brad Young. These two writers confirm for me that my decision to gain a clearer perspective of Jesus is a right one, but as yet I am not convinced that I need to sever my church connections. Time alone will determine God's will for me in that area. ?Once again, thanks for your responses. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/9f615809/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jul 27 18:58:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:58:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross In-Reply-To: <522078.40520.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <522078.40520.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200807272358.m6RNwf2m018198@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/c9089bd4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 27 19:55:49 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:55:49 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Terrorists: The Third Paradigm" Message-ID: (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) Daily Israel Report _Subscribe (free)_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe) _Home_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) _News Briefs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/AllFlashes.aspx) _Opinion_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/) _Judaism_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Yahadut.aspx) _Features_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Section.aspx/9) _Blogs_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/) _Admin_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/a7Admin/) _Radio_ (http://www.israelnationalradio.com/) | _Live _ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/static/a7radio.asx) _TV_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/TV/) _Jukebox_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Jukebox.aspx) _Israel Pics_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pict) _Services_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Useful) _RSS_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/RSS) _Advertise_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/More/ActivePage.aspx/Pirsum) Terrorists: The Third Paradigm 24 Tammuz 5768, 27 July 08 10:23 by Prof. Steven Plaut (IsraelNN.com) On July 2, 2008, an Arab terrorist seized a bulldozer in Jerusalem, rammed it into people and vehicles, and ended up murdering three people (including the mother of an infant), injuring dozens. The home of the murderer was not demolished. Because the murderer held Israeli citizenship as a resident of eastern Jerusalem, his family members collected "survivor benefits" from Israel's National Insurance Institute (like Social Security). They probably also collected payoffs from the Palestinian terrorist groups or their bankrollers in Arab countries who reward families of murderers. Terrorist family members were not expelled or deported. All in all, engaging in murder paid off handsomely. No sub-prime financial distress for them. The failure to penalize the family of the mass murderer had its effect this past week. Taking his cue, yet another terrorist seized a bulldozer in Jerusalem and rammed it into vehicles and people, injuring dozens. Both attacks could likely have been prevented if Israel were to get serious at long last about fighting terrorism and defeating it; as opposed to its existing policy of seeking to end terrorism by being nice and through appeasement. Israel treats terrorists as ordinary criminals, entitled to Miranda warnings, due process, legal representation and long-winded trials. But terrorists are neither combatants nor common criminals, and should be treated as neither. Terrorists are not summarily executed in Israel when caught, nor given the death penalty afterwards. Once captured, they are held under resort conditions, with DVDs and air conditioning. The baby-murderer Samir Kuntar, released recently by Israel as payoff to the Hizbullah for recovering the corpses of two IDF soldiers murdered by the terrorists, was allowed to obtain a BA at an Israeli university and to marry while in prison. Israel is at war, but its leaders are too pusillanimous to declare so. Israel refuses to take any action at all against the families of suicide bombers, regarding them as "innocents" entitled to "rights," rather than as de facto accomplices to murder. Israel's only method for dealing with terror is to ask the terrorist squad leaders who send out the mass murderers in the first place to kindly take action and arrest the terrorist foot soldiers. Israeli leaders have preached for 16 years that pretending war does not exist is the surest path to peace. While treating terrorists as enemy combatants is better than allowing them to enjoy civilian due process, rules and protections, this is also an erroneous way of dealing with them. Terrorists must not be granted Geneva Convention privileges and POW rights. They must not be held under humane conditions, with Red Cross visits. Terrorists must be treated under a third, unique paradigm - neither as POWs nor as criminals. Terrorists must be treated inhumanely. They should be denied human dignities, for behaving without human dignity is the very basis for their behavior and agenda. People who murder groups of children are not entitled to any privileges or exhibitions of compassion. They are beyond the pale. They are garbage. Treating them as such makes a hugely powerful statement to the world. We honor those whose values we cherish in myriad ways; let us also exhibit our contempt for those deserving of it. Moreover, the latest attempts to mollify the Hizbullah terrorists by releasing the baby-murderer Kuntar contain even worse unprecedented dangers. One of the unique features of Nazism was the insistence that Jews were Untermenschen, or an inferior species, and so killing Jewish civilians was not only a legitimate instrument for social policy but downright just. Since Jews were inferior to other humans, there could be nothing wrong with exterminating them like vermin. Jewish lives did not count. For decades, the position of the Arab world has been largely the same. The Arabs not only always tried to make the point that killing Jewish children and civilians is legitimate, but attempted to coerce Israel into publicly and officially acquiescing in accepting this definition of Jewish inferiority. They did so by equating murderers of Jewish children with soldiers, and demanding that Israel do the same. The anti-Semitic media largely agreed, as manifested in their insistence on referring to suicide bombers as "activists" and "militants," and counting the suicide bombers among the "victims" of any terror atrocity. Israel's leaders, even the most cowardly, refused to accept this equation. Until now. When the Israeli cabinet under Ehud Olmert approved a "hostage deal" that traded a baby-murderer for the corpses of two murdered IDF soldiers, for all intents and purposes it acquiesced in accepting the axiom of Jewish inferiority and the legitimacy of murdering Jewish children. Ehud Olmert has made me ashamed to be an Israeli. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/a51da0c5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jul 27 20:15:04 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:15:04 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, For those of you who heard me speak in Charlotte at the UIWU meeting in April, I'm sure you'll remember me alluding to lots of developments in the Ephramite world that I had just heard about (while I was in Israel in March). Below is part of an email (in GREEN) I recently received about a new 'umbrella' organization - just an FYI..... VERY interesting developments...it's happening, folks...and it's happening, NOW.... Hanoch And now for the BIG announcement: The accomplishment of the group of Biblical Zionist leaders. Joel (Bell) is in America with Sagiv Assulin, The Elected Likud Leader of The Young, member to the Knesset. They have been meeting with key leaders from the Hebraic Roots movement, Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, Brad Scott, Rico Cortez, Bill Cloud and others to organize and mobilize thousands who want to be activists, invest in Israel, build Zion and join brother Judah here. The leaders were together for less than a week and already the response is overwhelming! Everyone is excited and working together to design and build this huge movement. This is a Body Function, the birthing of a coalition called Biblical Zionists. (The website is nearly ready, you can check it out _www.biblicalzionist.org_ (http://www.biblicalzionist.org/) !) There are a group of Jewish leaders here that are also participating and supporting this movement and are actively involved in promoting your participation at every level. It is incredible to be here and involved in the meetings and to hear all the enthusiasm first hand. The agenda is attached below. The plans are underway for construction of a huge center that gives you more opportunities to connect to the land and the people. Members can come, build communities, work in agriculture, assist with office needs, create films and documentaries, invest in business, land, real estate, hi tech, and oil exploration. As a Biblical Zionist you will create positive pressure on Israel's existing government! Members will use the Center to achieve your goals here, train at a private military academy, (ages 18-23), attend a leading Israeli University to learn Hebrew, business and law, agriculture and engineering, media, and public relations. This is an incredible achievement, one that I compare with Esther who was being prepared for "such a time as this" in history. We are history in the making!!! Make sure you sign up as a member so you can have all the opportunity and consider coming on the 60th anniversary tour Nov 7th-18th. ( Please feel free to share the above information. ) _Click here: Welcome to Biblical Zionists Homepage_ (http://www.biblicalzionist.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/e04556a1/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jul 27 20:40:18 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:40:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross In-Reply-To: <200807272358.m6RNwf2m018198@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Yes, Steve, again your wisdom comes forth.will do! Blessings to you always, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross Friends, This dream of Ross' coworker may be of most important portent for all of us. Am asking EVERY person on this list to pray for Divine inspiration for the interpretation of this dream, and also that we may all be directed and prepared for whatever we may have to do in order to do justice to the task set before us by God. Gratefully, Steve At 06:10 AM 7/27/2008, you wrote: Dear Ross, Please consider placing the written version of the dream, that you shared a couple of weeks ago, on line for all to see. I think that it, and the circumstances surrounding it being given to you by someone else, is quite significant in several ways. I think others, especially Steve Mathe, should be interested in seeing it and even hearing it in the context in which it was given. The first 15 minutes will give you the context and the dream. Listen to the dream a few times, which is a couple of minutes long. To hear: Go to this this link: http://arba4.com/listings/ scroll down to Ross's teaching: Journey Thru the Gospel - Fishers of Men and click on play. Love & Prayers, Tracy _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/46046d8e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jul 27 20:49:50 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 20:49:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64EC3A7C494E4C4ABABD0FD7BAECAEDB@bettygivin> WOW Hanoch!!! Baruch HaShem!! No wonder you have been excited. May HaShem bless this giant endeavor. Tonight after I stop working, I want to look at the website more closely. I just took a quick look a minute ago. The potential is mind boggling, and I love the name, Biblical Zionists!!! Toda Rabba for all you have done to help this come about! Many blessings to you and all involved! Elisheva Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments Shalom L'Kulchem, For those of you who heard me speak in Charlotte at the UIWU meeting in April, I'm sure you'll remember me alluding to lots of developments in the Ephramite world that I had just heard about (while I was in Israel in March). Below is part of an email (in GREEN) I recently received about a new 'umbrella' organization - just an FYI..... VERY interesting developments...it's happening, folks...and it's happening, NOW.... Hanoch And now for the BIG announcement: The accomplishment of the group of Biblical Zionist leaders. Joel (Bell) is in America with Sagiv Assulin, The Elected Likud Leader of The Young, member to the Knesset. They have been meeting with key leaders from the Hebraic Roots movement, Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, Brad Scott, Rico Cortez, Bill Cloud and others to organize and mobilize thousands who want to be activists, invest in Israel, build Zion and join brother Judah here. The leaders were together for less than a week and already the response is overwhelming! Everyone is excited and working together to design and build this huge movement. This is a Body Function, the birthing of a coalition called Biblical Zionists. (The website is nearly ready, you can check it out www.biblicalzionist.org !) There are a group of Jewish leaders here that are also participating and supporting this movement and are actively involved in promoting your participation at every level. It is incredible to be here and involved in the meetings and to hear all the enthusiasm first hand. The agenda is attached below. The plans are underway for construction of a huge center that gives you more opportunities to connect to the land and the people. Members can come, build communities, work in agriculture, assist with office needs, create films and documentaries, invest in business, land, real estate, hi tech, and oil exploration. As a Biblical Zionist you will create positive pressure on Israel's existing government! Members will use the Center to achieve your goals here, train at a private military academy, (ages 18-23), attend a leading Israeli University to learn Hebrew, business and law, agriculture and engineering, media, and public relations. This is an incredible achievement, one that I compare with Esther who was being prepared for "such a time as this" in history. We are history in the making!!! Make sure you sign up as a member so you can have all the opportunity and consider coming on the 60th anniversary tour Nov 7th-18th. ( Please feel free to share the above information. ) Click here: Welcome to Biblical Zionists Homepage _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/2bf0179d/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Jul 27 22:14:38 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:14:38 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Dream Concerning Ross Message-ID: Dear Cornie, I did read your note and am not in any way offended. I am actually somewhat difficult to offend. I am glad that you listened. Many times we assume that certain people believe certain things without ever giving them an opportunity to speak for themselves. This is one of the main reasons dialogue is so important. Again, thanks for writing. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/da75f6e1/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Jul 27 22:17:23 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:17:23 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Succoth 08 Message-ID: Sorry for the duplication, but some did not receive this. I sent this note to all who have signed up on my email list. Now I am sending it to the dialogue list and the United Israel list. If you already received it, please delete and forgive the duplication. Shalom, Ross ____________________________________________ Tonight I am sitting in the synagogue flooded with thoughts and inspiration. When I left work today I began an extended vacation. My family and I are heading out of town this coming Tuesday for a week long camping trip. Everyone is excited. We plan to spend an entire week in tents next to a beautiful lake. Today as I was looking forward to this quiet time in a tent, far away from our normal hectic lives, I couldn't help but think of the festival of booths - known in Hebrew as Succoth, also known as the festival of Tabernacles. I love this festival, and despite the hot summer weather that we are experiencing here in southern Louisiana, I can almost smell a hint of fall in the air. For those that live here, I must say again that it is only a hint:) This week according to the Annual Torah cycle reading (Mattote), the Prophet reading comes from the book of Jeremiah (1:1-2:3). Towards the end of the reading we find a tender word from God to Israel. He says, "I remember the devotion of your youth, your love as a bride, how you followed me in the wilderness, in a land not sown. Israel was holy to the LORD, the firstfruits of his harvest." This time in the wilderness, where God first took His bride to Himself is foretold to come again. God will once again allure His bride into the wilderness. Every year, in the fall, on the 15th day of the 7th month of the Hebrew calendar, ancient Israel was charged to keep the Festival of Succoth for 7 days. The Prophet Zechariah speaks of this festival in a remarkable passage yet unfulfilled. "Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, YHWH of Hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths (Succoth)." This year, the Festival of Succoth is October 14-22. Roots of Faith will host its annual Festival / Conference in Saint Francisville. Last year we had a wonderful time of fellowship. I still have the page on my web site for those that are interested in reading about last year's conference and festival. There are pictures, the program of speakers, etc on the following link - _http://www.rootsoffaith.org/ROF_Succoth_2007.htm_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/ROF_Succoth_2007.htm) . This year's conference is still shaping up but I wanted to get this out so that you can begin to make plans. We have less than 3 months so you need to start planning if you have not already done so. Many that came last year have already told me that they are coming back. If you have never experienced this time under the stars in fulfillment of this ancient festival, you do not know what you are missing! I want to encourage everyone to keep this festival - if not with us, then wherever you are on these dates. Last year as we were preparing for Succoth, my friend and teacher, James Tabor wrote the following: "I want to urge EVERYONE to consider this opportunity. In ancient times ALL Israel was summoned to the "place that YHVH would choose" for the three annual pilgrim festivals. In our modern day, with our many holidays and cultural patterns, not to mention our jobs and other obligations, we have completely lost a sense of the rhythm of the "times and seasons" of YHVH, these Biblically ordained "appointments" with YHVH and his people. I think there is a process of restoration and it has been taking place for decades now in various church of God, messianic, and B'nai Noach groups around the world. David Horowitz and UIWU was probably the EARLIEST pioneer in these efforts, dating back to around the 1940s when Herbert Armstrong and others were discovering the "Jewish festivals," and telling Christians and others drawn to Torah faith that they needed to turn from pagan religious holidays to remember the Sacred Seasons of YHVH. Attending the Sukkoth gathering in St Francisville is a small beginning for our little group in this path of return. In ancient days the people of Israel saved tithes to be able to attend these feasts and the entire country/society took off and went to celebrate together. We are not there yet but there are steps we can take in that regard and living a few nights under the stars in a "tent" or Sukkah is surely one way to get things rolling again." This gathering in Saint Francisville is unique. There are plenty of other sites for people to go to during this festival. There are Succoth festivals and conferences for "messianics", some for "orthodox Jews", but this gathering is for anyone and everyone who seeks to find the good way among the ancient paths. I anticipate that there will be "Christians, Jews, B'nai Noach", but I also think that there are many who no longer label themselves by any particular name, but simply adhere to a version of Hebraic faith, based primarily on the Hebrew Bible. I am working on the program for the conference. Already, Joe Good of _Hatikva Ministries_ (http://www.hatikva.org/) has confirmed that he will be teaching. One thing that I am planning this year is a very special musical program for our gathering. Many of you know that Roots of Faith has been blessed with some wonderfully talented people; Glenn and Rhonda Chatterton, John Carlson, and Sherry Cole. There are others out there that have written music and may want to join in this. Bring your instuments! I truly hope that you will consider joining us this year. Here are some very preliminary details for those that may want to join us. ______________________ Hotel Information We will be meeting with the manager of our local hotel in town in the coming days to try and secure a special rate and will send an update on this as soon as possible for those that wish to sleep in a hotel rather than in a tent. Unlike last year, our plan is to hold all classes in the synagogue or at the camp site. The website for the hotel is: _http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g40411-d77835-Reviews-Quality_Inn_St_ Francis_on_the_Lake-Saint_Francisville_Louisiana.html _ (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g40411-d77835-Reviews-Quality_Inn_St_Francis_on_the_Lake-Sa int_Francisville_Louisiana.html) Give us a little time before you reserve a room so that we can work with them for discounts. ________________________ Camping information For those that plan to camp out, we have made arrangements with The Nature Conservancy of Louisiana, Mary Ann Brown Preserve. This wonderful location is ideal for sleeping under the stars. Aside from the beautiful location, it is less than 7 miles from the Hotel and the synagogue. Perfect for those who wish to stay up late and study the Bible under the stars and then head back to the Hotel to sleep. The plan is to rent additional rooms at the hotel for showers. There is no cost for camping. You will need to bring any camping supplies as this is a primitive site. If you do not own camping gear, but want to camp out with us, let me know and we will work something out. Here is the link to the camp site: _http://www.where2guide.com/TouristTrail/outdoors/MBrownPreserve.html _ (http://www.where2guide.com/TouristTrail/outdoors/MBrownPreserve.html) In the next couple of weeks I will have an on-line registration form on my web site for you to fill out. We did this last year and it was very helpful. We are modifying it to include choices for dietary needs and some other points that we failed to include last year. We have tried to incorporate learnings from Succoth 2007 in order to make this year's conference even better. For now, I would love to hear from you if you even think that you might come. Send me a quick note just saying that you hope to be here. This will give me an idea of how many rooms to reserve, etc. Send a note to me at rndavar at aol.com. I look forward to hearing from you. Start planning now. We are only 11 Weeks from the beginning of the Festival of Tabernacles. Shalom to you from Roots of Faith and the synagogue without walls - a "place of meeting" for Jews and non-Jews who (1) believe in the One God of Israel and (2) who are committed to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080727/70857d32/attachment.html From moshekale at bigpond.com Mon Jul 28 00:35:57 2008 From: moshekale at bigpond.com (Moshe Kale) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:35:57 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean Message-ID: <000501c8f073$d0310d40$2414bb7c@home6xc4ujv2ip> Hi James, Thank you for answering our question. I apologize that it has taken me a week to acknowledge this. I guess I was waiting to see if there were any other responses. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Blessings, Moshe and Ally -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/b7c8462f/attachment.html From dialogue at bdjones.com Mon Jul 28 01:50:08 2008 From: dialogue at bdjones.com (Brian) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:50:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks to everyone. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200807280651.m6S6ox49013447@nlpi025.prodigy.net> Thank you all for the very wonderful messages over the weekend regarding my birthday. Brian From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jul 28 05:46:49 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:46:49 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Thanks to everyone.] Message-ID: <488DA399.3080906@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/8ea6369d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Brian Subject: [Dialogue] Thanks to everyone. Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:50:08 -0500 Size: 3786 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/8ea6369d/attachment.eml From long777 at att.net Mon Jul 28 06:09:26 2008 From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:09:26 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments In-Reply-To: <64EC3A7C494E4C4ABABD0FD7BAECAEDB@bettygivin> References: <64EC3A7C494E4C4ABABD0FD7BAECAEDB@bettygivin> Message-ID: <002901c8f0a2$66b07e30$4001a8c0@Rainbow> This is in my opinion a huge thing. If you would like to listen to Joe Bell speak about this I am providing a link. Scroll until you see Joel's name. This is from a conference that just took place in Oregon. Joel Bell , Sagiv Assulin and Eleazer Oviah are all names associated that spoke at conference. They all have a recording listed here. http://www.waytozion.org/teachings/restoration08.htm Jeremy _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments WOW Hanoch!!! Baruch HaShem!! No wonder you have been excited. May HaShem bless this giant endeavor. Tonight after I stop working, I want to look at the website more closely. I just took a quick look a minute ago. The potential is mind boggling, and I love the name, Biblical Zionists!!! Toda Rabba for all you have done to help this come about! Many blessings to you and all involved! Elisheva Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments Shalom L'Kulchem, For those of you who heard me speak in Charlotte at the UIWU meeting in April, I'm sure you'll remember me alluding to lots of developments in the Ephramite world that I had just heard about (while I was in Israel in March). Below is part of an email (in GREEN) I recently received about a new 'umbrella' organization - just an FYI..... VERY interesting developments...it's happening, folks...and it's happening, NOW.... Hanoch And now for the BIG announcement: The accomplishment of the group of Biblical Zionist leaders. Joel (Bell) is in America with Sagiv Assulin, The Elected Likud Leader of The Young, member to the Knesset. They have been meeting with key leaders from the Hebraic Roots movement, Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, Brad Scott, Rico Cortez, Bill Cloud and others to organize and mobilize thousands who want to be activists, invest in Israel, build Zion and join brother Judah here. The leaders were together for less than a week and already the response is overwhelming! Everyone is excited and working together to design and build this huge movement. This is a Body Function, the birthing of a coalition called Biblical Zionists. (The website is nearly ready, you can check it out www.biblicalzionist.org !) There are a group of Jewish leaders here that are also participating and supporting this movement and are actively involved in promoting your participation at every level. It is incredible to be here and involved in the meetings and to hear all the enthusiasm first hand. The agenda is attached below. The plans are underway for construction of a huge center that gives you more opportunities to connect to the land and the people. Members can come, build communities, work in agriculture, assist with office needs, create films and documentaries, invest in business, land, real estate, hi tech, and oil exploration. As a Biblical Zionist you will create positive pressure on Israel's existing government! Members will use the Center to achieve your goals here, train at a private military academy, (ages 18-23), attend a leading Israeli University to learn Hebrew, business and law, agriculture and engineering, media, and public relations. This is an incredible achievement, one that I compare with Esther who was being prepared for "such a time as this" in history. We are history in the making!!! Make sure you sign up as a member so you can have all the opportunity and consider coming on the 60th anniversary tour Nov 7th-18th. ( Please feel free to share the above information. ) Click here: Welcome to Biblical Zionists Homepage _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/163f39b4/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 28 06:55:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:55:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments Message-ID: Hey Betty, Thank you for the kind words, but I have had nothing to do with the formation of this particular organization. I was told about it months ago, but can claim no credit for its creation. I wanted to pass on the information about it, because I knew that people would find it of interest. Personally, I don't even know the principles of this group. But other things are happening as well...stay tuned! :-) Hanoch **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/60db9025/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 07:37:22 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:37:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: A survivor.... In-Reply-To: References: <35598B0BEEC849579DB8FA85F560EF15@Hiscomputer> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: calb fordham Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 8:36 AM Subject: Fwd: A survivor.... To: Chris and Amber Dear One, This is very distressing news, but I feel I must send it to you. Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese Christian survivor of Islamic terror, warns the US (*see attached*). Here's her ministry website: http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/** Obsession the Movie: http://www.obsessionthemovie.com There are "cells" throughout the US, even in Charlotte. This is EXTREMELY serious, and requires our earnest prayers. Of course, forward it as you're led. *In HIS Mercy and Grace,* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/50404fe8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Obsession the movie-2.doc Type: application/msword Size: 34816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/50404fe8/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: A Survivor ... Warns America-2.doc Type: application/msword Size: 36864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/50404fe8/attachment-0001.doc From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 07:41:04 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:41:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Hanock, We were trying to get to Ohio August 2nd to hear these guys. Not looking like we can make it. Pray if we are suppose to be there we will. Thanks for the heads up. Chris On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:15 PM, wrote: > Shalom L'Kulchem, > > For those of you who heard me speak in Charlotte at the UIWU meeting in > April, I'm sure you'll remember me alluding to lots of developments in the > Ephramite world that I had just heard about (while I was in Israel in > March). > Below is part of an email (in GREEN) I recently received about a > new 'umbrella' organization - just an FYI..... VERY interesting > developments...it's happening, folks...and it's happening, NOW.... > *Hanoch* > And now for the BIG announcement: The accomplishment of the group of > Biblical Zionist leaders. Joel (Bell) is in America with Sagiv Assulin, The > Elected Likud Leader of The Young, member to the Knesset. They have > been meeting with key leaders from the Hebraic Roots movement, Monte > Judah, Eddie Chumney, Brad Scott, Rico Cortez, Bill Cloud and others to > organize and mobilize thousands who want to be activists, invest in Israel, > build Zion and join brother Judah here. The leaders were together for less > than a week and already the response is overwhelming! Everyone is excited > and working together to design and build this huge movement. This is a Body > Function, the birthing of a coalition called Biblical Zionists. (The > website is nearly ready, you can check it out* **www.biblicalzionist.org* > !) > There are a group of Jewish leaders here that are also participating and > supporting this movement and are actively involved in promoting your > participation at every level. It is incredible to be here and involved in > the meetings and to hear all the enthusiasm first hand. > The agenda is attached below. The plans are underway for construction of > a huge center that gives you more opportunities to connect to the land and > the people. > Members can come, build communities, work in agriculture, assist with > office needs, create films and documentaries, invest in business, land, real > estate, hi tech, and oil exploration. As a Biblical Zionist you will create > positive pressure on Israel's existing government! Members will use the > Center to achieve your goals here, train at a private military academy, > (ages 18-23), attend a leading Israeli University to learn Hebrew, business > and law, agriculture and engineering, media, and public relations. This is > an incredible achievement, one that I compare with Esther who was being > prepared for "such a time as this" in history. We are history in the > making!!! Make sure you sign up as a member so you can have all the > opportunity and consider coming on the 60th anniversary tour Nov 7th-18th. > > ( Please feel free to share the above information. ) > > Click here: Welcome to Biblical Zionists Homepage > > > > ------------------------------ > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/5858fae2/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 07:43:27 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:43:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments In-Reply-To: <002901c8f0a2$66b07e30$4001a8c0@Rainbow> References: <64EC3A7C494E4C4ABABD0FD7BAECAEDB@bettygivin> <002901c8f0a2$66b07e30$4001a8c0@Rainbow> Message-ID: Thanks Jeremy, if we don't make it to Ohio, at least we can tune in here. Appreciate the information. Chris On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Jeremy wrote: > > This is in my opinion a huge thing. If you would like to listen to Joe Bell > speak about this I am providing a link. Scroll until you see Joel's name. > This is from a conference that just took place in Oregon. Joel Bell , Sagiv > Assulin and Eleazer Oviah are all names associated that spoke at conference. > They all have a recording listed here. > > http://www.waytozion.org/teachings/restoration08.htm > > > Jeremy > > ------------------------------ > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Betty Givin > *Sent:* Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:50 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments > > WOW Hanoch!!! Baruch HaShem!! No wonder you have been excited. May > HaShem bless this giant endeavor. Tonight after I stop working, I want to > look at the website more closely. I just took a quick look a minute ago. > The potential is mind boggling, and I love the name, Biblical Zionists!!! > > > > Toda Rabba for all you have done to help this come about! Many blessings > to you and all involved! Elisheva > > Betty > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:15 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Some Ephramite Developments > > > > Shalom L'Kulchem, > > > > For those of you who heard me speak in Charlotte at the UIWU meeting in > April, I'm sure you'll remember me alluding to lots of developments in the > Ephramite world that I had just heard about (while I was in Israel in > March). > > Below is part of an email (in GREEN) I recently received about a > new 'umbrella' organization - just an FYI..... VERY interesting > developments...it's happening, folks...and it's happening, NOW.... > > *Hanoch* > > And now for the BIG announcement: The accomplishment of the group of > Biblical Zionist leaders. Joel (Bell) is in America with Sagiv Assulin, The > Elected Likud Leader of The Young, member to the Knesset. They have > been meeting with key > > leaders from the Hebraic Roots movement, Monte Judah, Eddie Chumney, Brad > Scott, Rico Cortez, Bill Cloud and others to organize and mobilize > thousands who want to be activists, invest in Israel, build Zion and join > brother Judah here. The leaders were together for less than a week and > already the response is overwhelming! Everyone is excited and working > together to design and build this huge movement. This is a Body Function, > the birthing of a coalition called Biblical Zionists. (The website is > nearly ready, you can check it out* **www.biblicalzionist.org*!) > > There are a group of Jewish leaders here that are also participating and > supporting this movement and are actively involved in promoting your > participation at every level. It is incredible to be here and involved in > the meetings and to hear all the enthusiasm first hand. > > The agenda is attached below. The plans are underway for construction of > a huge center that gives you more opportunities to connect to the land and > the people. > > Members can come, build communities, work in agriculture, assist with > office needs, create films and documentaries, invest in business, land, real > estate, hi tech, and oil exploration. As a Biblical Zionist you will create > positive pressure on Israel's existing government! Members will use the > Center to achieve your goals here, train at a private military academy, > (ages 18-23), attend a leading Israeli University to learn Hebrew, business > and law, agriculture and engineering, media, and public relations. This is > an incredible achievement, one that I compare with Esther who was being > prepared for "such a time as this" in history. We are history in the > making!!! Make sure you sign up as a member so you can have all the > opportunity and consider coming on the 60th anniversary tour Nov 7th-18th. > > > > ( Please feel free to share the above information. ) > > > > Click here: Welcome to Biblical Zionists Homepage > > > > ------------------------------ > > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/1d2df94d/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jul 28 06:22:55 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:22:55 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean] Message-ID: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/4279121c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BiblicalSexualMorality.pdf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 117743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/4279121c/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:55:16 -0400 Size: 9025 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/4279121c/attachment.eml From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Jul 28 09:10:05 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:10:05 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean] In-Reply-To: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> References: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Moshe and Ally, We agree with Joe on this one. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 7:22 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Moshe and Ally, > > > Sorry if I have been tardy in replying to this thread. My work commitments > have been extremely taxing lately. I hope to see you again shortly up on > Mount Tamborine. > > Whilst I agree with James' comments I would like to add that in Ultra > Orthodox Jewish marriages , sexual union during menstruation is forbidden . > The Torah laws regarding the *Niddah *( woman during her menstrual cycle) > is still very much in practice and kept as stated in the Torah. After this > period of impurity the woman immerses in a *Mikveh *or ritual bath. There > is one here at the Gold Coast Hebrew Congregation under the Synagogue > complex. > > The reason for this prohibition is as the Rabbis explain.......... During > the menstrual cycle the woman is releasing the unfertilized ovum which has > the potential for life. In a way the ovum is flushed out by the blood ( > life) and is considered as dying. Hence the impurity. > So during this cycle new life is not possible. In order to spiritually > cleanse and rededicate her body back to her husband ready to start the > potential for life she is re birthed through water immersion. There are many > mystical rabbinic insights into sexual intercourse. I am attaching this > study which I hope will answer some of your questions. > > *Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > > > > > > Shalom Moshe, > My understanding is that being "clean" or "unclean," had to do with "ritual > purity," i.e., whether or not one could enter into the sanctified areas of > the Mishkan/Temple. Essentially these are signs of mortality, or what is > called the "profane," as opposed to the "sacred" or divine/Kavod. > > Currently all human beings are in a constant state of ritual "impurity," so > the laws having to do with being clean after a quarantine period followed by > the mikvah allowing one to "enter the camp," really becomes redundant, since > the "camp" itself, that is all of our cultures, are ritually impure. > > The words "clean and "unclean" in English are quite misleading since they > imply something "dirty" or bad. Ritual impurity is not bad, just part of > being mortal (blood, sex, death). > > James Tabor > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Moshe Kale wrote: > > *Hi to all,* > ** > *Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some. The > question is this: When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say because > they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual cycle or because > of an emission of semen, what does this mean for us today? Say for instance > when a man and wife have sexual relations, how does being "unclean" effect > our lives before YHWH? What are the restrictions and/or implications > imposed on us? Thank you in advance for your replies.* > ** > *Blessings,* > *Moshe and Ally* > _______________________________________________ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release Date: 7/21/2008 6:36 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/bff7cad0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 28 10:31:06 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:31:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean In-Reply-To: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> References: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CABEDE15D511D6-1D80-7B3@FWM-M36.sysops.aol.com> Hey Joe - ??? Great summary and overview of what's often referred to in English as? "The Laws of Family Purity."? Just one little point to add - it's not just the Ultra-Orthodox community that observes it; it's?more widely?followed then that.? At least here in the States, and in Israel.? Just my 2 Shekels....take care, pal! ??? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ???????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 7:22 am Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean] Shalom Moshe and Ally, Sorry if I have been tardy in replying to this thread. My work commitments have been extremely taxing lately. I hope to see you again shortly up on Mount Tamborine. Whilst I agree with James' comments I would like to add that in Ultra Orthodox Jewish marriages , sexual union during menstruation is forbidden . The Torah laws regarding the Niddah ( woman during her menstrual cycle) is still very much in practice and kept as stated in the Torah. After this period of impurity the woman immerses in a Mikveh or ritual bath. There is one here at the Gold Coast Hebrew Congregation under the Synagogue complex. The reason for this prohibition is as the Rabbis explain.......... During the menstrual cycle the woman is releasing the unfertilized ovum which has the potential for life. In a way the ovum is flushed out by the blood ( life) and is considered as dying. Hence the impurity. So during this cycle new life is not possible. In order to spiritually cleanse and rededicate her body back to her husband ready to start the potential for life she is re birthed through water immersion. There are many mystical rabbinic insights into sexual intercourse. I am attaching this study which I hope will answer some of your questions. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. Attached Message From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:55:16 -0400 Shalom Moshe, My understanding is that being "clean" or "unclean," had to do with "ritual purity," i.e., whether or not one could enter into the?sanctified?areas of the Mishkan/Temple. Essentially these are signs of mortality, or what is called the "profane," as opposed to the "sacred" or divine/Kavod.? Currently all human beings are in a constant state of ritual "impurity," so the laws having to do with being clean after a quarantine period followed by the mikvah allowing one to "enter the camp," really becomes redundant, since the "camp" itself, that is all of our cultures, are ritually impure. The words "clean and "unclean" in English are quite misleading since they imply something "dirty" or bad. Ritual impurity is not bad, just part of being mortal (blood, sex, death). James Tabor On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Moshe Kale wrote: Hi to all, ? Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some.? The question is this:? When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say because they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual cycle or because of an emission of semen, what does this mean for us today?? Say for instance when a man and wife have sexual relations,?how does being "unclean" effect our lives before YHWH?? What are the restrictions and/or implications imposed on us?? Thank you in advance for your replies. ? Blessings, Moshe and Ally _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release Date: 7/21/2008 6:36 PM = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/bbb4a4b9/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Jul 28 15:23:03 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:23:03 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Message-ID: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/70f95405/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jul 28 15:39:28 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:39:28 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean] In-Reply-To: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> References: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2C2E63E2-FD89-4266-83C3-262E738FDA91@earthlink.net> Yes, this is certainly correct Joe. The prohibition of sexual relations during the period during and after menstruation is a separate idea from the normal mitzvot regarding "clean and unclean" that have to do with entering the Sanctuary. It is very much like the mitzvot regarding what one should eat or not eat. There are rules for life, with or without the Sanctuary standing. There have also been scientific studies of the health dangers of sexual relations during this time, elevated rates of cervical cancer, etc. Once again, the English term "clean" can really be misleading. It has nothing to do with "dirt." James On Jul 28, 2008, at 7:22 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Moshe and Ally, > > Sorry if I have been tardy in replying to this thread. My work > commitments have been extremely taxing lately. I hope to see you > again shortly up on Mount Tamborine. > Whilst I agree with James' comments I would like to add that in > Ultra Orthodox Jewish marriages , sexual union during menstruation > is forbidden . The Torah laws regarding the Niddah ( woman during > her menstrual cycle) is still very much in practice and kept as > stated in the Torah. After this period of impurity the woman > immerses in a Mikveh or ritual bath. There is one here at the Gold > Coast Hebrew Congregation under the Synagogue complex. > The reason for this prohibition is as the Rabbis explain.......... > During the menstrual cycle the woman is releasing the unfertilized > ovum which has the potential for life. In a way the ovum is flushed > out by the blood ( life) and is considered as dying. Hence the > impurity. > So during this cycle new life is not possible. In order to > spiritually cleanse and rededicate her body back to her husband > ready to start the potential for life she is re birthed through > water immersion. There are many mystical rabbinic insights into > sexual intercourse. I am attaching this study which I hope will > answer some of your questions. > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > > > > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 21, 2008 10:55:16 PM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Shalom Moshe, > > My understanding is that being "clean" or "unclean," had to do with > "ritual purity," i.e., whether or not one could enter into the > sanctified areas of the Mishkan/Temple. Essentially these are signs > of mortality, or what is called the "profane," as opposed to the > "sacred" or divine/Kavod. > > Currently all human beings are in a constant state of ritual > "impurity," so the laws having to do with being clean after a > quarantine period followed by the mikvah allowing one to "enter the > camp," really becomes redundant, since the "camp" itself, that is > all of our cultures, are ritually impure. > > The words "clean and "unclean" in English are quite misleading since > they imply something "dirty" or bad. Ritual impurity is not bad, > just part of being mortal (blood, sex, death). > > James Tabor > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Moshe Kale wrote: > >> Hi to all, >> >> Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some. The >> question is this: When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say >> because they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual >> cycle or because of an emission of semen, what does this mean for >> us today? Say for instance when a man and wife have sexual >> relations, how does being "unclean" effect our lives before YHWH? >> What are the restrictions and/or implications imposed on us? Thank >> you in advance for your replies. >> >> Blessings, >> Moshe and Ally >> _______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release Date: > 7/21/2008 6:36 PM > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/81931830/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jul 28 15:48:59 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:48:59 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean] In-Reply-To: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> References: <488DAC0F.70603@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <83ECFEDB-9EED-4156-B957-DACEE26D94F9@earthlink.net> Yes, this is certainly correct Joe. The prohibition of sexual relations during the period during and after menstruation is a separate idea from the normal mitzvot regarding "clean and unclean" that have to do with entering the Sanctuary. It is very much like the mitzvot regarding what one should eat or not eat. There are rules for life, with or without the Sanctuary standing. There have also been scientific studies of the health dangers of sexual relations during this time, elevated rates of cervical cancer, etc. Once again, the English term "clean" can really be misleading. It has nothing to do with "dirt." James On Jul 28, 2008, at 7:22 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Moshe and Ally, > > Sorry if I have been tardy in replying to this thread. My work > commitments have been extremely taxing lately. I hope to see you > again shortly up on Mount Tamborine. > Whilst I agree with James' comments I would like to add that in > Ultra Orthodox Jewish marriages , sexual union during menstruation > is forbidden . The Torah laws regarding the Niddah ( woman during > her menstrual cycle) is still very much in practice and kept as > stated in the Torah. After this period of impurity the woman > immerses in a Mikveh or ritual bath. There is one here at the Gold > Coast Hebrew Congregation under the Synagogue complex. > The reason for this prohibition is as the Rabbis explain.......... > During the menstrual cycle the woman is releasing the unfertilized > ovum which has the potential for life. In a way the ovum is flushed > out by the blood ( life) and is considered as dying. Hence the > impurity. > So during this cycle new life is not possible. In order to > spiritually cleanse and rededicate her body back to her husband > ready to start the potential for life she is re birthed through > water immersion. There are many mystical rabbinic insights into > sexual intercourse. I am attaching this study which I hope will > answer some of your questions. > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > > > > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 21, 2008 10:55:16 PM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Clean and unclean > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Shalom Moshe, > > My understanding is that being "clean" or "unclean," had to do with > "ritual purity," i.e., whether or not one could enter into the > sanctified areas of the Mishkan/Temple. Essentially these are signs > of mortality, or what is called the "profane," as opposed to the > "sacred" or divine/Kavod. > > Currently all human beings are in a constant state of ritual > "impurity," so the laws having to do with being clean after a > quarantine period followed by the mikvah allowing one to "enter the > camp," really becomes redundant, since the "camp" itself, that is > all of our cultures, are ritually impure. > > The words "clean and "unclean" in English are quite misleading since > they imply something "dirty" or bad. Ritual impurity is not bad, > just part of being mortal (blood, sex, death). > > James Tabor > > > On Jul 21, 2008, at 7:50 PM, Moshe Kale wrote: > >> Hi to all, >> >> Please allow me to ask a question which may seem silly to some. The >> question is this: When Torah mentions a person being "unclean" say >> because they touched a dead body, or because of a woman's menstrual >> cycle or because of an emission of semen, what does this mean for >> us today? Say for instance when a man and wife have sexual >> relations, how does being "unclean" effect our lives before YHWH? >> What are the restrictions and/or implications imposed on us? Thank >> you in advance for your replies. >> >> Blessings, >> Moshe and Ally >> _______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1565 - Release Date: > 7/21/2008 6:36 PM > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/a0c1642e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jul 28 17:31:27 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:31:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <8CABF18CF1BD8A3-E00-23CC@MBLK-M04.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Steve, ???? Beautifully put, as usual....Thanks for all the efforts you make to get us to "regroup" especially when things seem to unravel.? Take care - ????????????????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 4:23 pm Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so.? I am behind on many other things in my life as well.? From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies.? Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames.? Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group.? They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah.? Though so divided, we all? have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to.? We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited.? God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29).? Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God.? We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary:? "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list.? I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other.? We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions.? This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths.? Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that.? Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept.?? There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one:? "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26).? It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning.? It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble.? True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole.? These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another."? The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced.? Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise.? Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so.? I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at.? We are all on the way of tikkun / correction.? We will all eventually find out the Truth we need.? For now, God deals with us on our level of truth.? This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence.? We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so.? Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list.? After all, Jacob, our father tells us:? "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2.? Isaiah tells us:? "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20).? We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters.? Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/33a376df/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 18:24:51 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Message-ID: <698055.34992.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Steve, very well put. We each come to the table with our own mental, emotional, and spiritual?"box".?No one's "box" perfectly matches; Yet, our boxes overlap in large ways - we have much in common. I believe that HaShem loves us, in spite of some contents in each of our "boxes".?He has called us to love each other in concrete respectful ways, regardless of our own perceptions concerning the other "boxes".?Please forgive me, any one?whom, I may have "boxed" in the nose with my "box". Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:23:03 PM Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so.? I am behind on many other things in my life as well.? From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies.? Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames.? Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group.? They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah.? Though so divided, we all? have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to.? We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited.? God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29).? Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God.? We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary:? "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list.? I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other.? We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions.? This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths.? Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that.? Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept.?? There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one:? "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26).? It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning.? It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble.? True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole.? These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another."? The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced.? Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise.? Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so.? I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at.? We are all on the way of tikkun / correction.? We will all eventually find out the Truth we need.? For now, God deals with us on our level of truth.? This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence.? We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so.? Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list.? After all, Jacob, our father tells us:? "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2.? Isaiah tells us:? "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20).? We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters.? Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/61254c0a/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Mon Jul 28 19:02:26 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:02:26 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Succoth Message-ID: This came in this morning. I have received several notes from people who are listening to Sunday Shul. This year's Succoth may be bigger than last year. I hope that many of you on these lists can make it. I hope to get the on-line registration up within the next couple of weeks. Bridget, the kids and I are packing for our camping trip to Arkansas. We leave in the morning! Lots to do. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/b8a7614d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Les \"rabbi\"" Subject: Succoth Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:40:18 -0500 Size: 5559 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/b8a7614d/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:26:52 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:26:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: I appreciate very much your call for regrouping and reconciliation, Steve, and have deeply regretted the offenses caused on all sides by this unfortunate clash of most sacredly held beliefs - especially the offense taken by some concerning what I wrote. I'm terribly sorry for any hurt feelings, and most heartedly agree with your assessment of the situation. We will need to agree to disagree, and probably with great regularity! We can call it "RAATD" (Red Alert Agree To Disagree). I too hope that those who have left the Dialogue List will feel led to return in time. Their voices are missed............and yours in particular, Patty!!!! Shalom to all, Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so. I am behind on many other things in my life as well. From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies. Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames. Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we all have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to. We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary: "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list. I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other. We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one: "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise. Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so. I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at. We are all on the way of tikkun / correction. We will all eventually find out the Truth we need. For now, God deals with us on our level of truth. This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence. We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list. After all, Jacob, our father tells us: "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2. Isaiah tells us: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/18b17611/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jul 28 20:30:59 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:30:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: I appreciate very much your call for regrouping and reconciliation, Steve, and have deeply regretted the offenses caused on all sides by this unfortunate clash of most sacredly held beliefs - especially the offense taken by some concerning what I wrote. I'm terribly sorry for any hurt feelings, and most heartedly agree with your assessment of the situation. We will need to agree to disagree, and probably with great regularity! We can call it "RAATD" (Red Alert Agree To Disagree). I too hope that those who have left the Dialogue List will feel led to return in time. Their voices are missed............and yours in particular, Patty!!!! From: Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so. I am behind on many other things in my life as well. From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies. Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames. Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we all have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to. We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary: "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list. I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other. We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one: "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise. Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so. I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at. We are all on the way of tikkun / correction. We will all eventually find out the Truth we need. For now, God deals with us on our level of truth. This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence. We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list. After all, Jacob, our father tells us: "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2. Isaiah tells us: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/e0915180/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Jul 28 20:40:45 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:40:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham In-Reply-To: <833530.29172.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <833530.29172.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a401c8f11c$201e8af0$0400a8c0@marvin> Tracy, Put them gloves away!.... I agree.! I was doing some reading gathering my thoughts to reply when I stopped and had a thought. We have been taught that God made seven or eight covenants, some are conditional(meaning there are requirements we must meet) and there are the unconditional covenants(those that depend on God's power and sovereignty for there fulfillment) and then the big question of the New covenant, who, what, where, and when. Now here is my question. What if there is only one covenant, in the tanack. It starts with Adam and at different times and with different men God further defines and refines his covenant and tells the person he is speaking to the specific aspect of the covenant that pertains to them. i.e. ... God has a covenant with Adam / man, he defines and refines it with Noah, then later he defines , refines it with Abraham, later we see another aspect defined and refined in the Mosaic and so forth with the Davidic covenant. This thought would then led me to think that the Tanack only deals with one covenant and that when it comes to the New Covenant, there is no new covenant only a defining and refining and renewing of the ONE covenant that has always existed with man. In this thought there are different aspects that would apply to some people and not others. So therefore, if I'm a Gentile certain things apply, If I'm a Levite certain things apply, if I'm of greater Israel (Ephraim) then certain aspects of the one covenant apply but not everything to everybody. It's like many parts that make up a machine, they all must be in place and working properly to make the machine function. When all of Israel and Judah are joined together and in the land then the New / Renewed Covenant will be the proper working and functioning and fulfillment of all the previous covenants in God's master plan. The Kingdom will fill the earth and the Knowledge of God will infuse every aspect of life. God likens Israel as his bride, and wishes to hold her in his arms, but to have a perfect well balance relationship each partner brings certain commits, obligations, aspects to the relationship and could we say that in the Kingdom the marriage will function perfectly just as God saw before creation and that at this time all the biblical covenants (ONE Covenant) will be functioning and working properly, which they must do for a Happy and Harmonious marriage. Anyone have any thoughts? Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 1:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham Thanks Marvin for your response. My understanding may not be perfect, but this is how I understand these things. Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek and Abram were in covenant with G-d, walking with G-d...they were circumcised of heart. Abram was called to become Abraham to establish a nation, which would be a special, a particular people, Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. Exo 15:27 And they came to Elim, where were twelve (12) wells of water, and threescore and ten (70) palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters. This was a visual representation of the role of Nation of Israel (12 Tribes) among the 70 Nations of the world. The 70 Nations were to bless Abraham/Israel and receive its ministry on their behalf. The 70 Nations were to continue in the Adamic/Noachic Covenant, which it already had - be spiritual circumcised. The 12 Tribes (plus any who wished to dwell [ger toshav] with them in the Land were to be physically circumcised and become part of the Priestly Nation - and there would be one law for both The Native Born and The Immigrant from the other 70 Nations). One did not have to become become physically circumcised and move to the Priest Land to have a relationship with G-d. Once Israel left the the wilderness and entered their Priestly Land they had to resume with The Priestly Sign of The Priestly Covenant - physical circumcision. They/our fathers had enhanced obligations, which could ONLY be carried out in The Priestly Land. These issues were THE DEBATE during the first century among Beit Hillel as opposed to Beit Shammai & Zealot & Priestly Allies who controlled the Jerusalem/Judean institutions of the first century. Beit Shammai & Company believed that one could not be saved unless he was Circumcised and kept the Law (the enhanced Priestly Nation Law). The Jewish Netsarim, though forced to follow this 1st Century National Halacha (the 18 Edicts of Shammai), were shown by G-d that this was erroneous, and adjusted their stance (Acts 10, 11, 15). Paul's Epistle to the Galations was written, apparently, just shortly before the Council of Acts 15. These are the issues surrounding that Epistle, quite extensively misunderstood, to be sure. The issue of compulsive circumcision for salvation for the G-dfearing of these 70 Root Nations. The Yavneh Council followed suit in 80 c.e. and abolished the 18 Edicts of Shammai. As shown in The Book of Hosea, The 10 Tribes were removed from the Priestly Covenant, scattered to the Nations, and assimilated. We, descendents of the 10 Tribes, were, re-attached, along with other Gentile G-dfearers, to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - as Nations/Gentiles/or, G-dfearers among the Nations. As the revival of The 10 Tribes begin, we begin preparing for the journey back to The Priestly Land. But, all The Nations are not going to move to Eretz Israel, though they will receive the ministry and keep the Covenant that is applicable to them - including, Sabbath, Feast of Tabernacles, etc., etc. What we have to contend with are the ideas of Dual Complimentary Covenants that run side by side, or a Narrowing Covenant that excludes the Covenants that preceded it. Note: There were Covenants within The Abrahamic/12 Tribe Sinai Covenant: #1) Aaronic, #2) Levitical, #3) Davidic, etc. These were Complimentary Covenants. I assume that we could say that even, the Adamic/Noachic Covenant, becomes subsumed within The Abrahamic/12 Tribe Sinai Covenant - but, that does not nullify the prior Covenants, does it? Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: mhyde To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 6:58:46 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham Tracy, Was not the circumcision the sign of being in the covenant.? Therefore, it was given to the males at eight days old. They had no choice, they were just brought in to the covenant by their parents. If they were in the covenant then they were "saved' and a part of the nation of Israel . Were as the nations did not have salvation because they were not in the covenant. The nations could be in the covenant, but then they would have to convert and be circumcised. This seems to have been the big debate in the N.T. times. Do these Gentiles who are turning to God have to be circumcised? Jesus told the women. You know not what you worship, we know what we worship, for Salvation is of the Jews. A Rabbi once made the statement that the Jews are born with salvation but can loose it, were as the gentiles are born with out but can obtain it. Joshua 5 records were the LORD told Joshua to circumcise all the Israelites born in the wilderness, then the LORD said this day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt . According to Genesis 17 the Almighty ordered and proscribed circumcision as a way for Abram to join and keep the covenant and Abraham became a father of many nations. This covenant was made between the Almighty and Abraham and Abrahams seed after him. The almighty gave Abraham the land for an everlasting possession. The man that is not circumcised... that soul shall be cut off form among the / his people. I would venture to say if Abraham complained to God about the pain and refused to take part in the circumcision of himself and his children he would have been on the outside looking in. I have to throw this in... I find it humorous when people who have went there own way and not follow God's way complain about how hard things are and they say, "You just down understand.. You just don't know what I have been through, you just don't know what has happened in my life". I say... I don't need to know... all I do know is that it's all about making choices. Follow God or follow your own way. The Torah teaches two ways... One is death / curse's and the other is life ... choose life!! God told us what to do with the Hebrew males and even the slaves and strangers bought with money, but it seems to have slipped my mind were he told us what to do with Abrahams spiritual children. (If there is such a thing?) However, we can understand the tremendous debate this created in the first century. Although, circumcision may not be for "salvation", If your of Abraham's seed you will be "cut off" with out it. The language as best as I can understand, is fairly strong and to the point of - exterminate. Shalom, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Abram & Abraham There is a difference between Abram & Abraham. Abram walked with HaShem. Abram entered a new status, a new name, a new sign - circumcision. He was given the commission to create a Priestly Nation on behalf of all other nations. To preserve "The Way" and promote it among the 70 nations. His new status did not "save" him - it gave him a special calling. Abram was righteous and walked with HaShem before he became Abraham. Even so, one does not have to become part of the Priestly Nation to be "saved". However, if he feels called to walk in this special calling, then, he may be circumcised, and minister in that capacity. So, in my view, circumcision, was not for "salvation" but for a specific calling among all nations. What do ye think, Tracy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/cd4d1e43/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Mon Jul 28 20:48:47 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:48:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <8CABF18CF1BD8A3-E00-23CC@MBLK-M04.sysops.aol.com> References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> <8CABF18CF1BD8A3-E00-23CC@MBLK-M04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <488E76FF.10300@gninc.ca> I agree with you Steve, If I had had the wisdom I should have at my age, I could have been a better example than I have been, I am sorry for any offense i may have caused. And I am serious about it. One Rabbi who has helped me a lot actually mentions that it is alright to feel ashamed and get red in the face, nothing wrong with that. That is the way I have felt about myself, even if i didn't even get red in the face. Maybe I am a bit more cold hearted yet than I realized. Cornie youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: > Shalom Steve, > > Beautifully put, as usual....Thanks for all the efforts you make > to get us to "regroup" especially when things seem to unravel. Take > care - > */Hanoch/* > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Mathe > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 4:23 pm > Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation > > Dear Friends, > > I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and > forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are > going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not > have the time to do so. I am behind on many other things in my life > as well. From what I have read, I get the impression that this was > quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated > in their missives and replies. Some have left the list. Unfortunate, > lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames. Am writing > to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some > second actions relative to this event. > > I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since > that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the > most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. > They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as > we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and > converge on the straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we > all have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / > turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the > theological and religious glasses we have been used to. We have been > blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by > our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we > have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing > many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making > out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in thes > e verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our > sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. > > We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted > wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called > to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right > that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and > wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and > redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who > are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do > this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here > is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow > after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. > > This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the > directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short > summary: "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. > 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell > together" in unity on this list. I do not call for unity in beliefs, > but in the principle of respect toward each other. We do not have to > accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has > pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each > other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the > Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air > our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all > necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation > on our quests for Truth. > > In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up > about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes > we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication > becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. > This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot > not do that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our > relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a > teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good > one: "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be > angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into > sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and > sisters, whom we are called to love, (not /like/), when we get into > trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, including > cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in a > group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. > Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love > one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, > is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. > > Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group > to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of > their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also > motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may > arise. Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those > who need to forgive, are invited to do so. I do not request that > anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and > references. We are where we are at. We are all on the way of tikkun / > correction. We will all eventually find out the Truth we need. For > now, God deals with us on our level of truth. This is marvelous, for > we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence. We > all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making > mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging > in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. > > I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen > on this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in > some sort of private communication with those that have left the list > to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of > seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list. > After all, Jacob, our father tells us: "in the last days, *gather > yourselves together.*" (Gen 49:2. Isaiah tells us: *"Assemble > yourselves and come, draw near together, *ye that are escaped of the > nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to reconciliation, between > Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and > sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . > > *Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it > is for brethren to dwell together." > > *Steve > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ > Toolbar Now > ! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080728/a935a9dc/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 29 00:29:28 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:29:28 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <072920080529.5388.488EAAB8000729990000150C22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey all, I also want to reiterate that I regret any offenses that I may have caused during that exchange, or any other for that matter. These topics are difficult enough to discuss face to face without causing or taking offense, let alone trying to discuss them over email. So if I offended anyone it was not intended and I am sorry. I wish to add that I have taken no offense as well. As Pat says, there are some things that we are just going to have to not agree on, that doesn't mean that we can't keep seeking common ground. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" : -------------- I appreciate very much your call for regrouping and reconciliation, Steve, and have deeply regretted the offenses caused on all sides by this unfortunate clash of most sacredly held beliefs - especially the offense taken by some concerning what I wrote. I'm terribly sorry for any hurt feelings, and most heartedly agree with your assessment of the situation. We will need to agree to disagree, and probably with great regularity! We can call it "RAATD" (Red Alert Agree To Disagree). I too hope that those who have left the Dialogue List will feel led to return in time. Their voices are missed............and yours in particular, Patty!!!! From: Steve Mathe Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 4:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so. I am behind on many other things in my life as well. From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies. Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames. Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we all have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to. We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary: "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list. I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other. We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one: "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise. Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so. I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at. We are all on the way of tikkun / correction. We will all eventually find out the Truth we need. For now, God deals with us on our level of truth. This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence. We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list. After all, Jacob, our father tells us: "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2. Isaiah tells us: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/d887bcd5/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Jul 29 01:05:16 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:05:16 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] On-line Registration for Succoth 08 Message-ID: Sorry for the duplication. I wanted to make sure that everyone saw this. I would love to everyone to join us. I know that there are people on the dialogue list from around the world. Any of you want to travel to Louisiana? _____________________________________ Shalom! This is just a quick note to my mailing list to inform you that the on-line registration for the Annual Feast of Tabernacles in Saint Francisville is up and running! I would ask that you go on as soon as possible and sign up. This registration of course, does not obligate you in any way to attend so I would ask that if you even THINK that you might be attending, please sign up. This gives us an idea of what we will need to do to arrange things locally for your stay. I will send out updates periodically to keep you all in the loop as to how things are progressing. I will be leaving in the morning for my family vacation, but some of the local congregants will be working on some of the details in my absence. I would encourage you to add some comments in the block at the bottom if there are things that we failed to include in our registration form, or if for some reason a portion of the form does not quite communicate what you need us to know. If you have any problems in completing the form, please email _problems at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:problems at rootsoffaith.org) , and we will try and help you resolve them. This truly is a wonderful time for Bible believers to come together. The camp site is beautiful and the program will be inspiring. Young and old (and everyone in between) will be refreshed during this time. So don't put it off. If you are considering joining Roots of Faith for Succoth, go to my web site and sign up! Feel free to send this to others that may be looking for a place to spend the week. Remember, the actual dates of Succoth are October 14-21. The conference is Friday, October 17 through Sunday, October 19. _http://rootsoffaith.org/succoth_registration_08.htm _ (http://rootsoffaith.org/succoth_registration_08.htm) Shalom, Ross Nichols **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/9c5d8689/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 29 07:13:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:13:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <8CABF18CF1BD8A3-E00-23CC@MBLK-M04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Shalom, Steve, and all. I want to second Hanoch's words here. You do have a special gift with words, Steve, which are both constructive and healing, and I am thankful that you are among us. I too, missed a lot of what was going and at one point when I checked and read a few emails realized the discord, tried to write a reconciliatory message, but apparently did not get my point across because I did not receive any responses, which is often the case. But that is just the nature of the dialogue. People write what they want when they want. Just thankful for you that you wrote what you did when you did. Someone, I think Pat, mentioned Patty. I too miss miss you, little Atzilah! And also Inju! Please come back to us! My love and blessings to all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 5:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Shalom Steve, Beautifully put, as usual....Thanks for all the efforts you make to get us to "regroup" especially when things seem to unravel. Take care - Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 4:23 pm Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Dear Friends, I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do so. I am behind on many other things in my life as well. From what I have read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies. Some have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our human frames. Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and hopefully some second actions relative to this event. I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as we come from diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we all have one thing in common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have been used to. We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our fathers that we have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in these verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us to be on. This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary: "Shuvu b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list. I do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward each other. We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all necessary as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for Truth. In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes we even have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes impossible. It is wise to do so. This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a teaching, which regardless of how we view the New Testament, is a good one: "Be ye angry and sin not," (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet not being carried over into sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not like), when we get into trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise. Any who need to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are invited to do so. I do not request that anyone apologize for their convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at. We are all on the way of tikkun / correction. We will all eventually find out the Truth we need. For now, God deals with us on our level of truth. This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of human existence. We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient path, after we have said so on this list. After all, Jacob, our father tells us: "in the last days, gather yourselves together." (Gen 49:2. Isaiah tells us: "Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between brethren and sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is for brethren to dwell together." Steve _______________________________________________ _____ The Famous, the Infamous, the Lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/cc571d7b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 29 07:33:17 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:33:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor Message-ID: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> It will be one year ago today, July 29, 2007, that my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor (of blessed memory) died. I cannot let the day go by without mentioning her name in a public way. I am trying to figure out what one does on an anniversary death besides light a yartzreit candle.and remember. I wanted to go to her grave, but she is buried in San Antonio and I just cannot make the trip right now. If I were in Jerusalem, I would go to the Kotel and put a little piece of paper in the Wall, but James is going to do that for me and it gives me great comfort. Those of you who have loved and lost your mothers know what a hole it leaves in your heart. I am blessed with beautiful memories of her growing up and throughout my adult life, and was blessed in that I was able to there with her, up until the moment of her death, lying beside her in her bed, cradling her in my arms, reciting the 23rd Psalm which she loved, and singing the Aaronic Benediction and Mi Shebach (prayer for healing of body and spirit) to her.and at the very moment of her death, I felt her stop breathing, and knew that she was with HaShem. And then I was able to wash, wrap and prepare her body for burial and say blessings over her. And now it is a year later. She is gone. but her presence in my life and in my house surrounds her. I have her pictures and many of her precious things that I remember since childhood. Forgive me for going on so.I know that for the most part we don't write such personal things on the list, but my heart is so full that it is about to burst and I just had to get out a few of my feelings. B'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/707bf4d6/attachment.html From long777 at att.net Tue Jul 29 07:39:02 2008 From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy Long) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor Message-ID: <307263.81848.qm@web83804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I lost my Mother this past march. The hole it leaves cannot be filled. May HaShem grant you healing and the peace that comes with that. Jeremy ----- Original Message ---- From: Betty Givin To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 7:33:17 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor It will be one year ago today, July 29, 2007, that my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor (of blessed memory) died.? I cannot let the day go by without mentioning her name in a public way.? I am trying to figure out what one does on an anniversary death besides light a yartzreit candle?and remember.? I wanted to go to her grave, but she is buried in San Antonio and I just cannot make the trip right now.? If I were in Jerusalem , I would go to the Kotel and put a little piece of paper in the Wall, but James is going to do that for me and it gives me great comfort.? Those of you who have loved and lost your mothers know what a hole it leaves in your heart.? I am blessed with beautiful memories of her growing up and throughout my adult life, and was blessed in that I was able to there with her, up until the moment of her death, lying beside her in her bed, cradling her in my arms, reciting the 23rd Psalm which she loved, and singing the Aaronic Benediction and Mi Shebach (prayer for healing of body and spirit) to her?and at ?the very moment of her death, I felt her stop breathing, and knew that she was with HaShem.? And then I was able to wash, wrap and prepare her body for burial and say blessings over her. And now it is a year later.? She is gone? but her presence in my life and in my house surrounds her.? I have her pictures and many of her precious things that I remember since childhood? Forgive me for going on so?I know that for the most part we don?t write such personal things on the list, but my heart is so full that it is about to burst and I just had to get out a few of my feelings. B?Ahava, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/039ce1a2/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 29 07:46:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:46:18 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor Message-ID: Dear Betty, May her memory always be a blessing for you and the entire family..... B'Ahava, Hanoch **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/97123f71/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jul 29 09:15:28 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:15:28 EDT Subject: Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation Message-ID: Dear Steve: I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the other. It is little to no difference than the division between the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the two sides on the dialogue list. It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And so who has the answer to these hard questions? Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/6a81049f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 09:54:44 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:54:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor In-Reply-To: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> References: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> Message-ID: I can't believe a year has passed, and yet at the same time, it seems like an eternity. It is good that you share your aching heart's cry with us. We are family, and when one hurts, we all hurt. Hold fast to Hazel Mae Woods Tabor's memory, Dear One. You - all of you - are her legacy in the earth, and we, though we may never have known her, yet we remember her too, through you. Thinking of you with such fondness, Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:33 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor It will be one year ago today, July 29, 2007, that my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor (of blessed memory) died. I cannot let the day go by without mentioning her name in a public way. I am trying to figure out what one does on an anniversary death besides light a yartzreit candle.and remember. I wanted to go to her grave, but she is buried in San Antonio and I just cannot make the trip right now. If I were in Jerusalem, I would go to the Kotel and put a little piece of paper in the Wall, but James is going to do that for me and it gives me great comfort. Those of you who have loved and lost your mothers know what a hole it leaves in your heart. I am blessed with beautiful memories of her growing up and throughout my adult life, and was blessed in that I was able to there with her, up until the moment of her death, lying beside her in her bed, cradling her in my arms, reciting the 23rd Psalm which she loved, and singing the Aaronic Benediction and Mi Shebach (prayer for healing of body and spirit) to her.and at the very moment of her death, I felt her stop breathing, and knew that she was with HaShem. And then I was able to wash, wrap and prepare her body for burial and say blessings over her. And now it is a year later. She is gone. but her presence in my life and in my house surrounds her. I have her pictures and many of her precious things that I remember since childhood. Forgive me for going on so.I know that for the most part we don't write such personal things on the list, but my heart is so full that it is about to burst and I just had to get out a few of my feelings. B'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/dcd33aba/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:05:32 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:05:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor In-Reply-To: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> References: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> Message-ID: Blessings to you and your family. We are thinking of you and will be praying for you throughout the day. Chris and Amber Fordham On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > It will be one year ago today, July 29, 2007, that my mother, Hazel Mae > Woods Tabor (of blessed memory) died. I cannot let the day go by without > mentioning her name in a public way. I am trying to figure out what one > does on an anniversary death besides light a yartzreit candle?and remember. > I wanted to go to her grave, but she is buried in San Antonio and I just > cannot make the trip right now. If I were in Jerusalem, I would go to the > Kotel and put a little piece of paper in the Wall, but James is going to do > that for me and it gives me great comfort. > > Those of you who have loved and lost your mothers know what a hole it > leaves in your heart. I am blessed with beautiful memories of her growing > up and throughout my adult life, and was blessed in that I was able to there > with her, up until the moment of her death, lying beside her in her bed, > cradling her in my arms, reciting the 23rd Psalm which she loved, and > singing the Aaronic Benediction and Mi Shebach (prayer for healing of body > and spirit) to her?and at the very moment of her death, I felt her stop > breathing, and knew that she was with HaShem. And then I was able to wash, > wrap and prepare her body for burial and say blessings over her. > > And now it is a year later. She is gone? but her presence in my life and > in my house surrounds her. I have her pictures and many of her precious > things that I remember since childhood? > > Forgive me for going on so?I know that for the most part we don't write > such personal things on the list, but my heart is so full that it is about > to burst and I just had to get out a few of my feelings. > > B'Ahava, > > Elisheva/Betty > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/2925bd38/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 10:26:01 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:26:01 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A call for reconciliation In-Reply-To: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807282023.m6SKN2vx006217@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Steve, Although we had not realized anyone was "sqabbling" on the list we really appreciated this email because we were "squabbling" with some friends Friday. The tears really makes you stop and think about the division; so thank you for reminding us of things we should already know. We had noticed that we had not seen some names on the dialogue lately. We must have "missed" this or just too naive to realize it. We enjoy reading both sides and felt things were pretty balanced. Chris and Amber On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I have not yet caught up on all the emails that were fired back and forth > while I was off the Net for some two weeks. The way things are going, I may > not read them all with all the replies, I just do not have the time to do > so. I am behind on many other things in my life as well. From what I have > read, I get the impression that this was quite a blow up of the equilibrium > of the group and some became heated in their missives and replies. Some > have left the list. Unfortunate, lamentable, yet inevitable, considering our > human frames. Am writing to all of us to consider some second thoughts and > hopefully some second actions relative to this event. > > I wanted to put in the subject line "squabbles of brethren," since that is > what has happened. These squabbles are inevitable between the most loving > brothers and sisters within any family, any relationship. They cannot be > avoided anywhere, in any group. They are inevitable as we come from > diverse, convoluted, personal and corporate paths, and converge on the > straight path of the Torah. Though so divided, we all have one thing in > common, that is the calling of God, to return / turn to Him in His Truth. We > cannot but see things with the theological and religious glasses we have > been used to. We have been blinded from seeing God's truth in His Torah by > leaving that Torah, by our sins and the sins (and their liabilities) of our > fathers that we have inherited. God tells us that Jacob is blind and deaf, > seeing many things but not really discerning, hearing but not really making > out the message of God, ( Isa. 42:18-29). Friends, we are ALL in these > verses.... and we are all trying, by God's grace, to have our sights, > hearing and walking without limping restored.by God. > > We are also called to healing, the healing of our self-inflicted wounds on > the macro tribal and national scales. Perhaps we are called to do that here, > in this group too, on a micro scale. It is only right that we prayerfully > acknowledge these liabilities, sicknesses and wounds and seek God's healing, > reconciliation, salvation and redemption. Brothers and sisters, we need to > reach out to those who are not with us, and recall them to rejoin this > group. We need to do this for its own sake, and most importantly because we > need to do here is forming patterns and laying a foundation for those who > will follow after us on the "path of return" that God is calling all of us > to be on. > > This "path of return" is most important, for it embodies all the directives > to all of mankind for all time in the Tanach, in one short summary: "Shuvu > b'nei Adam," / return ye sons of Adam," (Psalm. 90:4). It is only right and > correct that we be reconciled and "dwell together" in unity on this list. I > do not call for unity in beliefs, but in the principle of respect toward > each other. We do not have to accept anyone's beliefs, but we have to do > justice what Ross has pointed out to us form the Tanakh, that of being > forbearing with each other and continue in the same spirit with each other > seeking the Truth. After all, the purpose of this list is to "dialogue" and > air our ideas, passions, discoveries and convictions. This is all necessary > as we all seek Divine Guidance, instruction and revelation on our quests for > Truth. > > In such questing, it is inevitable that we become heated, riled up about > what we consider and believe to be inviolable truths. Sometimes we even > have to withdraw for a time to cool off, for communication becomes > impossible. It is wise to do so. > This is all O.K., we need to do that, in fact, being human we cannot not do > that. Emotions are but physical indicators of our relationships toward > anyone, anything, or any concept. There is a teaching, which regardless of > how we view the New Testament, is a good one: "Be ye angry and sin not," > (Eph. 4:26). It is possible to be angry about someone, or something, yet > not being carried over into sinning. It is when we cut off our relationship > with our brothers and sisters, whom we are called to love, (not *like*), > when we get into trouble. True, there is a time and place for everything, > including cutting off someone for the sake of the whole. These arguments in > a group, such as ours, are not reasons for such severe necessity. > Both Jews and Christians espouse the teaching from the Torah, "to love > one-another." The "new commandment" to do so, in the New Testament, is not > "new" at all, it is only new, if it has not been practiced. > > Therefore, I motion, that we invite all those who have left the group to > come back by sending them an invitation with our sincere regrets of their > leaving, and our sincere love for having them back. I also motion that we > resolve to resolve any further disturbances which may arise. Any who need > to apologize can and are invited to do so. Those who need to forgive, are > invited to do so. I do not request that anyone apologize for their > convictions, beliefs or quotations and references. We are where we are at. > We are all on the way of tikkun / correction. We will all eventually find > out the Truth we need. For now, God deals with us on our level of truth. > This is marvelous, for we can handle only so much truth at any level of > human existence. We all need to move up in the grades of the school of life > by making mistakes, confessing/ admitting, apologizing, relearning, and > hanging in there... oh, yes, and by applying the truth we have. > > I hereby invite all those who wish to see this "regrouping" to happen on > this list to say so. Further, I invite all those who are still in some sort > of private communication with those that have left the list to lovingly > invite them back into the group / kahal/ assembly of seekers of the Ancient > path, after we have said so on this list. After all, Jacob, our father > tells us: "in the last days, *gather yourselves together.*" (Gen 49:2. > Isaiah tells us: *"Assemble yourselves and come, draw near together, *ye > that are escaped of the nations...." (Isa. 45:20). We are called to > reconciliation, between Judah and Ephraim, between, God and man, between > brethren and sisters. Let's do a bit of beginning practice here and now. . > > *Hine mah tov, umanayim, shevet achim gam yachad. / Behold how good it is > for brethren to dwell together." > > *Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/044e5bde/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 12:10:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:10:43 -0700 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200807291710.m6THAg5C032727@mail136c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/d0c3f3bd/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 12:36:52 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:36:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor In-Reply-To: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> References: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200807291736.m6THapXX019804@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/2863c48a/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 12:48:15 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:48:15 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor In-Reply-To: <200807291736.m6THapXX019804@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <60F6A0391E7342F799C4B0B36A4BEFA5@bettygivin> <200807291736.m6THapXX019804@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200807291748.m6THmEPe012846@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/82e9317f/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:34:14 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:34:14 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall of division Message-ID: <516d73340807291134r709bc8cap9bc762abd74b4e70@mail.gmail.com> Peace to all, Jesus and John the Baptist had the same message, "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Jesus also taught, "Seek first the kingdom..." Micah, the prophet, wrote, "I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me." Looking, waiting, searching. God is the priority. Look at the Torah. Search the Torah. Look at Jesus. Search his words. And then wait... for the wall of division to come tumbling down. It is God, gracious is He , who will show Himself to you. It is He who will make you lie down in green pastures. It is He who leads you beside the still waters. "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord." May this also be the continuing personal experience of each and every one of us. Brian McFarlane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/d6038f2b/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 13:51:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:51:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California Message-ID: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's initial report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things fell off the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save my computer in case things get worse. Steve From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jul 29 13:58:53 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:58:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California In-Reply-To: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: May you and yours be protected in the palm of HaShem's hand, dear Steve...praying for your safety and that there were no casualities... Love and Shalom, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:52 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California Gang, I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's initial report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things fell off the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save my computer in case things get worse. Steve _______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jul 29 13:59:57 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:59:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California In-Reply-To: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Baruch HaSHem you are OK! We just had a bank robbery here and the criminals fled and are hiding in our subdivision. The police are searching! What a crazy day! Meanwhile, I am praying your prescribed prayer, asking HaSHem to show me the first step to take to begin to deal with my resistance to the solution to our conundrum with Ephraim and Judah. Oddly, I first felt impressed to listen to the French Horn being played on a video clip, then got Joshua 4:8! "And the children of Yisrael did as Yehoshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of the Yarden, as the L-RD spoke to Yehoshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Yisrael, and carried them over with them to the place where they lodged, and laid them down there." Betty, do you think James could get us 12 stones out of the Jordan??????? Thank you so much, Steve, Pat -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Mathe" Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 2:51 PM To: Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California > Gang, > > I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... > and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's > initial report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things > fell off the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save > my computer in case things get worse. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > From Tacticalmgt at aol.com Tue Jul 29 15:03:56 2008 From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com (Tacticalmgt at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:03:56 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California Message-ID: Steve: Glad to hear you are ok...if you need anything, you know where to find me. Take care and G-d bless! Jim **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. 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URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/48b002fc/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jul 29 21:06:13 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:06:13 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] For Tisha B'Av from Rav Kook Message-ID: _Rav Kook on the Torah Portion_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) _Tisha B'Av_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TISHA-B-AV-68.htm) The Three Watches of the Night ____________________________________ _Gold from the Land of Israel_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/book-gold.htm) 368 pages, hardcover, online price: $20.50 ____________________________________ Tisha B'Av: The Three Watches of the Night "God Roars from on High" All around the world there are flourishing Jewish communities, blessed with thriving synagogues and bustling schools, excellent yeshivot and numerous Torah classes. But with all of this Torah- learning and mitzvah-observance, is the absence of the Beit HaMikdash felt? Are we aware of our state of exile and dispersion? The anguished roars of a lion - that is how Jeremiah described God's continual grief over the loss of the Holy Temple. "God roars from on high. He calls out from His holy dwelling, roaring over His habitation" [Jeremiah 25:30]. The Sages had the spiritual sensitivity to hear these roars. "Woe to My children!" God cries out. "On account of their sins, I have destroyed My house and burnt My Temple and exiled them among the nations of the world" [Berachot 3a]. Three Watches The Rabbis could also knew to say when one may hear this heavenly anguish. The roars take place during the three watches of the night. (Not surprisingly, perhaps, since the darkness of the night is a common metaphor for the exile.) Rabbi Eliezer taught that there are signs indicating the hour of these pained cries: "The night consists of three watches, and during each watch, the Holy One sits and roars like a lion ... The sign for this: in the first watch, a donkey brays; in the second, dogs howl; and in the third, a baby nurses from its mother and a woman talks with her husband." What is the significance of these strange signs - donkeys braying, dogs howling, babies nursing, and early-morning conversations? The Flawed Service of Exilic Judaism The night watches reflect the underlying spiritual mechanics of the universe. Each watch corresponds to the elevation of higher worlds ? an elevation that is a result of the Jewish people's avodah - service of God ? in this world. Since the Temple's destruction and the exile of Israel, however, the Jewish people have been reduced to an atrophied spiritual life. This decline lowered the overall level of Divine Providence in the world. The roars of Divine anguish during the night watches express the pain caused by this spiritual contraction. Why are there three watches? The three watches correspond to the three basic levels in which we serve God: our actions, character traits, and intellect. Sadly, all three aspects are adversely affected by the exile and the absence of the Beit HaMikdash. Deeds and Traits The first form of serving God is through the perfection of deeds and actions. When the Jewish people are on a proper level, their practical avodah is guided by a profound awareness of God. Due to the detrimental influences of exile, however, all actions are sullied by a spirit of crass materialism. This causes our service of God to lose its reparative quality of tikkun. Lacking the guidance of Divine wisdom, sometimes through mitzvot involving physical pleasure (such as the mitzvah to rejoice on the holidays), our materialistic inclinations are awakened and strengthened. For this reason, the sign of the first watch is the baying of a donkey (chamor) - indicating the awakening of materialistic tendencies (chomriut). This is a basic part of human nature - "For man is born a wild donkey" [Job 11:12] - that is bolstered by the negative influences of exile. The second watch corresponds to the service of middot tovot, positive character traits such as kindness, generosity, and humility. Yet the present situation, with its dearth of holy influences, fosters various negative traits. This is not because of the body's physicality, but is due to our lack of an accurate image of pure traits, the result of our failure to base our character traits on the ways of God. The sign for the distorted nature of this watch is the howling of dogs. Dogs symbolize negative traits, as it says, "And the dogs are brazen" [Isaiah 56:11]. Greed and brazenness are the root for many other flawed characteristics. Service of the Intellect The final watch corresponds to the highest level - serving God with the intellect. This avodah takes two forms: those who study the simple, revealed aspects of Torah, and those who delve into deeper, more esoteric studies of understanding God. Unlike the first two levels, Torah learning cannot be spoiled. As the Sages taught, "Words of Torah cannot contract ritual impurity" [Berachot 22a]. Therefore the signs of the third watch are positive ones, signs of Divine beneficence and closeness - a baby nursing and a wife conversing with her husband. However, even this level is detrimentally affected by the exile. What is the heavenly sign for those who study the revealed parts of Torah, limited to practical Halachic studies? A baby nursing from its mother. This state is lacking, an intellectual service that is not fully developed, and thus is symbolized by a nursing baby. Those who study on a deeper level, however, are blessed with a revealed love of God. Thus, the sign for this level is one of love and affection - a wife conversing with her husband. Nonetheless, this conversation appears to consist only of stories (mesaperet) without deeper content. Once again, this state reflects the current lack of prophesy and Divine influence. "Woe to My children! On account of their sins, I have destroyed My house and burnt My Temple and exiled them among the nations of the world." [Adapted from Ein Ayah vol. I pp. 4-5] Rav Kook on the Net: _RavKookTorah.org_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) This week's Dvar Torah: _RavKook.co.nr_ (http://www.ravkook.co.nr/) This Dvar Torah: _TISHA-B-AV-68.htm _ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TISHA-B-AV-68.htm) To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: _Rav Kook List_ (mailto:RavKookList at gmail.com) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/048409f3/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 21:22:44 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:22:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California In-Reply-To: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Hey Steve, Heard about that on the radio today. Had no clue you were there though. Pray all stays well for you. Chris and Amber On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Gang, > > I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... > and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's initial > report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things fell off > the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save my computer > in case things get worse. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/19ae7114/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 22:08:13 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:08:13 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California In-Reply-To: References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200807300308.m6U38Ebe028998@mail2535.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/3ef62f55/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jul 29 23:47:14 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:47:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] An Earthquake of a PR In-Reply-To: References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200807300447.m6U4lF9k027374@mail2515.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080729/89dfd6a5/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Jul 30 05:17:00 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:17:00 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor] Message-ID: <48903F9C.4050301@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/a27428c8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering my mother, Hazel Mae Woods Tabor Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 07:33:17 -0500 Size: 11202 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/a27428c8/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 30 06:13:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:13:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Lekarev Report for 27 Tammuz 5768 Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 27 Tammuz 5768 July 30, 2008 Shalom The Torah of Hashem is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of Hashem is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of Hashem are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of Hashem is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of Hashem is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of Hashem are true, they are righteous altogether; More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Psalm 19:7-9 **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/79d04ce9/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Wed Jul 30 06:22:22 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:22:22 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" Message-ID: _by Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer_ (http://www.aish.com/search/article_search_results.asp?article_author=Rabbi+Yehuda+L.+Oppenheimer&title_text=&date_amount= &date_option=year) Longing for a better future. Unless things change a whole lot in the next few weeks, we will once again be going through the days leading up to and including Tisha B'Av, the Ninth Day of the Month of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Year after year, we reflect on our condition in the Diaspora, and what this long, seemingly endless exile is supposed to teach us, while awaiting the long sought for Redemption. There is an interesting anecdote recorded regarding a meeting between the prophet Jeremiah and the famous Greek philosopher, Plato. Jeremiah was mourning the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, and Plato engaged him in conversation. Impressed with Jeremiah's great wisdom, Plato asked him, "I do not understand how a sage of your stature can weep so bitterly over something that is over and done with. Surely, what is past is finished with, and your concern now ought to be solely with the future, and how you can influence it. What possible use can there be in all of this weeping?" Jeremiah answered, "I cannot give you a proper answer to your logical question, for you will not understand it." Was Plato not right? And surely now, 2500 years later, is it not time to focus on the present and the future, and to let bygones be bygones? Can we never forget? Can we never forgive? After all this time, how can we spend three weeks of every year going into greater and greater mourning, culminating in a day of fast and sadness? In fact, one of the great blessings that God grants us is the ability to forget painful memories. "God has decreed about a deceased person that they should be forgotten from the heart" (Sofrim 21). If it was not possible to forget, if the pain of losing a close relative or friend remained always as immediate as when the loss first occurs, we would be immobilized, unable to cope with life. It is a blessing that while we always carry a memory of a departed loved one, we are able to remove the pain of the loss from the forefront of our consciousness. Nevertheless, this general rule does not hold here, as expressed by the famous verse in Psalms, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten!" We are bidden never to forget! The sages, by instituting all of the laws surrounding these three weeks, made sure that at least during one long period of the year, and several other fast days year-round, not to mention the requests in our thrice-daily prayers, that we would constantly remember and never forget to mourn for Jerusalem. The Slonimer Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom Noah Barzovsky, zt"l, wrote a fascinating essay on this subject, in which he noted that central to Tisha B'Av is the idea that we are not to make our peace, ever, with the fact that the Holy Temple, the Beit Hamikdash, was destroyed. To never allow ourselves the thought that we accept the post-Temple world as the new, normal, permanent reality for us as Jews. The Temple is Jerusalem was destroyed for many reasons, some more well known than others. But that was never meant to be its final disposition. The day that we stop hoping that the Beit Hamikdash will be rebuilt is the day that its destruction will really be irreversible. This is such a basic thought that it ought to permeate all of our concerns in life. We struggle with our problems, with our kid's education, with our personal growth, with financial problems, existential problems; we look at the communal scene and the national scene both here in Israel. We listen to the pundits and "wise men" who have this solution to intractable problems or who point to that occurrence to explain the crux of our quandaries, and we forget that the main problem is Exile -- our distance from God and his Holy Temple in Jerusalem. That no matter how many problems we solve here in America and Israel, and regardless of how much we grow in our spiritual lives as Jews, we will have a huge gaping hole in our spiritual lives as long as "we have been exiled from our land, and we cannot fulfill our obligations in your great and holy House..." Why are so many Jews distant from their spiritual roots? Why are there so many terrible, endless problems between groups of Jews? How are we ever going to be able to resolve the great issues that divide us, when those matters are based on such fundamentally different outlooks on what the Torah is, what it means to be Jewish, the nature of our Jewish obligations, and how flexible can we be about adapting them for modern times? What will it take to allow myriads of Jews who have no idea of the beauty of Shabbat, keeping kosher, learning Torah, and Jewish living to even have a real glimmer of what they are missing? How will the great problems surrounding the Land of Israel ever be resolved? When we will be able to always feel the indescribable joy of being close to God without the inner contradictions and pain and difficulty, and existential loneliness that we so often feel in our spiritual quest? Our aching longings to reunite with God and rebuild the Temple are the building blocks of the eventual edifice. Although in many ways Judaism teaches that what one does is more important than what one thinks or believes, it is n evertheless true that "The longing to perform a mitzvah, or to engage in a spiritual pleasure, is even greater than the pleasure itself." The active awaiting of its rebuilding, the tears shed over its absence -- the effort to not assimilate into the surrounding culture and its alien values, but rather to strive to retain our uniquely Jewish selves -- these are what will eventually bring it back. Every tear shed and every sigh over its absence is another element in the building. Thus, says the Slonimer Rebbe, the period of the three weeks between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha B'Av are a period of crying, but a positive period: a crying that is part of the rebuilding process. A cry of hope, of longing for a better future -- an expression from the depths of the soul that we will never be satisfied and complacent in our spiritual quest until we have achieved total Teshuva (repentance), back to the closeness with God that once was and is still potentially possible. We must certainly face life with a happy, confident attitude. We must take time to enjoy our growth, to celebrate our Jewishness, and to sing with the joy of being fortunate to be engaged in building our spiritual lives inwardly, as well as in our families and communities. But we must also take the time to mourn a little inwardly; about all the potential that is there, that is not yet being fulfilled. Only thus will we continue to grow, and look forward to the day that our inner sanctuary will be fully built, heralding the time of Mashiach, speedily in our days. This article can also be read at: _http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Festival_of_Sadness.asp_ (http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Festival_of_Sadness.asp) _Click here to receive more inspiring articles like this_ (http://www.aish.com/lists/subscribeEmail.asp?email=youngbarzel at aol.com&adType=emailToFriend&chos en=aishwebupdate&subscribe=Y) Author Biography: Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer is the recently appointed Rabbi at the Young Israel of Forest Hills, NY, after serving in Jewish Outreach for many years in Portland, Oregon, where he & his wife Lonni helped several _aish.com_ (http://www.aish.com/) contributors reconnect with their Jewish roots while growing a spiritual community **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/24845347/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 30 07:01:07 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:01:07 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California In-Reply-To: <200807300308.m6U38Ebe028998@mail2535.carrierzone.com> References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> <200807300308.m6U38Ebe028998@mail2535.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <073020081201.4248.4890580300016F320000109822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Meine Fruend, My brother lives in Rialto... Glenn (Hans-Jurgen) -------------- Original message from Steve Mathe : -------------- Thanks, Chris and Amber, No damage, one book fell off the shelf...one that I need to sell... (we sell used books).... .I had forgotten that I had a second copy of this book... Baruch HaShem, it was a blessing! Amazing!! We live less than 9 miles as the crow flies from the epicenter... it was a very scary sudden big jolt with shaking that lasted about 30 seconds... my guess is that it is a sign of things to come.... with G-d's protection we will have to ride out the harsh wake-up calls that are coming upon Israel and the world... May the G-d Abraham, Isaac and Jacob save us to do the work we have assigned to us, Steve. At 07:22 PM 7/29/2008, you wrote: Hey Steve, Heard about that on the radio today. Had no clue you were there though. Pray all stays well for you. Chris and Amber On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Steve Mathe < eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote: Gang, I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's initial report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things fell off the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save my computer in case things get worse. Steve _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/53d44454/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 07:39:43 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:39:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] An Earthquake of a PR In-Reply-To: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> <200807300447.m6U4lF9k027374@mail2515.carrierzone.com> References: <200807291851.m6TIpgpE017111@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> <200807300447.m6U4lF9k027374@mail2515.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Steve, I don't know if it was just me, or if this video clip will be an inspiration for all of us, but this is what I felt led to hear yesterday before I got Joshua 4:8. It was quite amazing to me. I had never done anything like this before, but knew I needed to hear a French Horn play, so Googled looking for one, and this clip came up (am attaching the address to this email). It is quite beautiful to hear. It's titled "Siegfried's Horn Call." It felt to me as if Shamayim (Heaven) was opening up. Pat http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-X-horn-mus.html From: Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:47 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An Earthquake of a PR What a great PR, Baruch Hashem!!! The horn, pointing to a trumpet / shofar call,.... and the Joshua 4:8 reference is astounding!! It reminds me of I kings 18, of the twelve stones Elijah used: 30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down. 31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:" Well, Gang, we have some thins to thank for and to discuss.. what does this PR mean to you? BTW, I am asking ALL of you to pray the prescription I mentioned aforehand, with no holds barred.. and we might get some more PRs re things that we need to know and do.... Remember, Moses would like all of you to be like Eldad and Medad.. Steve At 11:59 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: Baruch HaSHem you are OK! We just had a bank robbery here and the criminals fled and are hiding in our subdivision. The police are searching! What a crazy day! Meanwhile, I am praying your prescribed prayer, asking HaSHem to show me the first step to take to begin to deal with my resistance to the solution to our conundrum with Ephraim and Judah. Oddly, I first felt impressed to listen to the French Horn being played on a video clip, then got Joshua 4:8! "And the children of Yisrael did as Yehoshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of the Yarden, as the L-RD spoke to Yehoshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Yisrael, and carried them over with them to the place where they lodged, and laid them down there." Betty, do you think James could get us 12 stones out of the Jordan??????? Thank you so much, Steve, Pat -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Mathe" Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 2:51 PM To: Subject: [Dialogue] Earthquake in Southern California Gang, I am OK, I just experienced the biggest earthquake in my life so far... and I have lived in Southern California for over 30 years... radio's initial report is that it may have been a 5 + ... we are OK, a few things fell off the shelves... am going off the computer to be off line, to save my computer in case things get worse. Steve _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/0ebfbb46/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jul 30 10:58:20 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:58:20 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200807301558.m6UFwJxr021205@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/b3ee42f0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jul 30 13:28:47 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:28:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" In-Reply-To: <200807301558.m6UFwJxr021205@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, thanks so much for sending this, and Steve, thanks for your response. The portion in bold is indeed meaningful. I am wondering if sometimes there are not parallels between the period of weeping and crying between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha b'Av in our personal lives that go on as well...and that this crying and longing for a better future is indeed a part of the rebuilding process within ourselves individually as well as corporately. Years ago, I remember being taught by a chassidic rabbi that there is a definite relationship between the word "build" and the word "children," b'nei is very close and interrelated as they have the same root...thus in the Amidah, when we pray for the rebuilding of the temple, we are praying for our children from generation to generation. I am reminded of the story of when Rachel when unable to have a child, went to her handmaiden so that her children would be "built" thru her.(I have not looked up the Hebrew), but thought it an interesting way with words..not sure if I am making any sense here or really how all that relates...but somehow I believe that it does...perhaps it has to do with the "mishkan of prayers", Steve that you always refer to, that we are to pass on to our children, "dor v' dor", from generation to generation. Just some things that hit me as I read this post and was reflecting on these times and all that is going on in Israel, the world, and in my own little personal space... May we all do "Teshuvah,"as we seek to draw closer and closer to Him, and as we cry out our cries of hope...our "longings for a better future"...from the depths of our souls...that the temple of the mishkan will be built in us and in our children! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:58 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" Thanks Hanoch, I am calling everyone's attention to the paragraph I enlarged in bold below. This is what we need to do... to this is what we are called.... this is the underlying current to carry us as the "first contingent to arise form the Valley of Dry Bones"... the "sadness" here makes sense only if it is an integral part of increasing teshuva which draws us back to our Father.... who created us to inhabit eternity with Him...... Steve At 04:22 AM 7/30/2008, you wrote: Festival by Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer Longing for a better future. Unless things change a whole lot in the next few weeks, we will once again be going through the days leading up to and including Tisha B'Av, the Ninth Day of the Month of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Year after year, we reflect on our condition in the Diaspora, and what this long, seemingly endless exile is supposed to teach us, while awaiting the long sought for Redemption. There is an interesting anecdote recorded regarding a meeting between the prophet Jeremiah and the famous Greek philosopher, Plato. Jeremiah was mourning the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, and Plato engaged him in conversation. Impressed with Jeremiah's great wisdom, Plato asked him, "I do not understand how a sage of your stature can weep so bitterly over something that is over and done with. Surely, what is past is finished with, and your concern now ought to be solely with the future, and how you can influence it. What possible use can there be in all of this weeping?" Jeremiah answered, "I cannot give you a proper answer to your logical question, for you will not understand it." Was Plato not right? And surely now, 2500 years later, is it not time to focus on the present and the future, and to let bygones be bygones? Can we never forget? Can we never forgive? After all this time, how can we spend three weeks of every year going into greater and greater mourning, culminating in a day of fast and sadness? In fact, one of the great blessings that God grants us is the ability to forget painful memories. "God has decreed about a deceased person that they should be forgotten from the heart" (Sofrim 21). If it was not possible to forget, if the pain of losing a close relative or friend remained always as immediate as when the loss first occurs, we would be immobilized, unable to cope with life. It is a blessing that while we always carry a memory of a departed loved one, we are able to remove the pain of the loss from the forefront of our consciousness. Nevertheless, this general rule does not hold here, as expressed by the famous verse in Psalms, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten!" We are bidden never to forget! The sages, by instituting all of the laws surrounding these three weeks, made sure that at least during one long period of the year, and several other fast days year-round, not to mention the requests in our thrice-daily prayers, that we would constantly remember and never forget to mourn for Jerusalem. The Slonimer Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom Noah Barzovsky, zt"l, wrote a fascinating essay on this subject, in which he noted that central to Tisha B'Av is the idea that we are not to make our peace, ever, with the fact that the Holy Temple, the Beit Hamikdash, was destroyed. To never allow ourselves the thought that we accept the post-Temple world as the new, normal, permanent reality for us as Jews. The Temple is Jerusalem was destroyed for many reasons, some more well known than others. But that was never meant to be its final disposition. The day that we stop hoping that the Beit Hamikdash will be rebuilt is the day that its destruction will really be irreversible. This is such a basic thought that it ought to permeate all of our concerns in life. We struggle with our problems, with our kid's education, with our personal growth, with financial problems, existential problems; we look at the communal scene and the national scene both here in Israel. We listen to the pundits and "wise men" who have this solution to intractable problems or who point to that occurrence to explain the crux of our quandaries, and we forget that the main problem is Exile -- our distance from God and his Holy Temple in Jerusalem. That no matter how many problems we solve here in America and Israel, and regardless of how much we grow in our spiritual lives as Jews, we will have a huge gaping hole in our spiritual lives as long as "we have been exiled from our land, and we cannot fulfill our obligations in your great and holy House..." Why are so many Jews distant from their spiritual roots? Why are there so many terrible, endless problems between groups of Jews? How are we ever going to be able to resolve the great issues that divide us, when those matters are based on such fundamentally different outlooks on what the Torah is, what it means to be Jewish, the nature of our Jewish obligations, and how flexible can we be about adapting them for modern times? What will it take to allow myriads of Jews who have no idea of the beauty of Shabbat, keeping kosher, learning Torah, and Jewish living to even have a real glimmer of what they are missing? How will the great problems surrounding the Land of Israel ever be resolved? When we will be able to always feel the indescribable joy of being close to God without the inner contradictions and pain and difficulty, and existential loneliness that we so often feel in our spiritual quest? Our aching longings to reunite with God and rebuild the Temple are the building blocks of the eventual edifice. Although in many ways Judaism teaches that what one does is more important than what one thinks or believes, it is nevertheless true that "The longing to perform a mitzvah, or to engage in a spiritual pleasure, is even greater than the pleasure itself." The active awaiting of its rebuilding, the tears shed over its absence -- the effort to not assimilate into the surrounding culture and its alien values, but rather to strive to retain our uniquely Jewish selves -- these are what will eventually bring it back. Every tear shed and every sigh over its absence is another element in the building. Thus, says the Slonimer Rebbe, the period of the three weeks between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha B'Av are a period of crying, but a positive period: a crying that is part of the rebuilding process. A cry of hope, of longing for a better future -- an expression from the depths of the soul that we will never be satisfied and complacent in our spiritual quest until we have achieved total Teshuva (repentance), back to the closeness with God that once was and is still potentially possible. We must certainly face life with a happy, confident attitude. We must take time to enjoy our growth, to celebrate our Jewishness, and to sing with the joy of being fortunate to be engaged in building our spiritual lives inwardly, as well as in our families and communities. But we must also take the time to mourn a little inwardly; about all the potential that is there, that is not yet being fulfilled. Only thus will we continue to grow, and look forward to the day that our inner sanctuary will be fully built, heralding the time of Mashiach, speedily in our days. This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Festival_of_Sadness.asp Click here to receive more inspiring articles like this Author Biography: Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer is the recently appointed Rabbi at the Young Israel of Forest Hills, NY, after serving in Jewish Outreach for many years in Portland, Oregon, where he & his wife Lonni helped several aish.com contributors reconnect with their Jewish roots while growing a spiritual community _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/cc0c27ff/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 13:41:58 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:41:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So beautiful, Betty!!! This makes sense. Our children are "built" with our tears, though, thankfully with much more laughter than tears. And the mishkan of prayers is built likewise. Spiritual growth - "building" - is often painful, and many tears accompany the process, though inevitably, joy is the crowning achievement of that growth. Thank you Hanoch, Steve and Betty for your words to encourage us to keep on building, hoping and believing that our Father's house will be made manifest! Love, Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 2:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" Hanoch, thanks so much for sending this, and Steve, thanks for your response. The portion in bold is indeed meaningful. I am wondering if sometimes there are not parallels between the period of weeping and crying between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha b'Av in our personal lives that go on as well...and that this crying and longing for a better future is indeed a part of the rebuilding process within ourselves individually as well as corporately. Years ago, I remember being taught by a chassidic rabbi that there is a definite relationship between the word "build" and the word "children," b'nei is very close and interrelated as they have the same root...thus in the Amidah, when we pray for the rebuilding of the temple, we are praying for our children from generation to generation. I am reminded of the story of when Rachel when unable to have a child, went to her handmaiden so that her children would be "built" thru her.(I have not looked up the Hebrew), but thought it an interesting way with words..not sure if I am making any sense here or really how all that relates...but somehow I believe that it does...perhaps it has to do with the "mishkan of prayers", Steve that you always refer to, that we are to pass on to our children, "dor v' dor", from generation to generation. Just some things that hit me as I read this post and was reflecting on these times and all that is going on in Israel, the world, and in my own little personal space... May we all do "Teshuvah,"as we seek to draw closer and closer to Him, and as we cry out our cries of hope...our "longings for a better future"...from the depths of our souls...that the temple of the mishkan will be built in us and in our children! Elisheva/Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:58 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" Thanks Hanoch, I am calling everyone's attention to the paragraph I enlarged in bold below. This is what we need to do... to this is what we are called.... this is the underlying current to carry us as the "first contingent to arise form the Valley of Dry Bones"... the "sadness" here makes sense only if it is an integral part of increasing teshuva which draws us back to our Father.... who created us to inhabit eternity with Him...... Steve At 04:22 AM 7/30/2008, you wrote: by Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer Longing for a better future. Unless things change a whole lot in the next few weeks, we will once again be going through the days leading up to and including Tisha B'Av, the Ninth Day of the Month of Av, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. Year after year, we reflect on our condition in the Diaspora, and what this long, seemingly endless exile is supposed to teach us, while awaiting the long sought for Redemption. There is an interesting anecdote recorded regarding a meeting between the prophet Jeremiah and the famous Greek philosopher, Plato. Jeremiah was mourning the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem, and Plato engaged him in conversation. Impressed with Jeremiah's great wisdom, Plato asked him, "I do not understand how a sage of your stature can weep so bitterly over something that is over and done with. Surely, what is past is finished with, and your concern now ought to be solely with the future, and how you can influence it. What possible use can there be in all of this weeping?" Jeremiah answered, "I cannot give you a proper answer to your logical question, for you will not understand it." Was Plato not right? And surely now, 2500 years later, is it not time to focus on the present and the future, and to let bygones be bygones? Can we never forget? Can we never forgive? After all this time, how can we spend three weeks of every year going into greater and greater mourning, culminating in a day of fast and sadness? In fact, one of the great blessings that God grants us is the ability to forget painful memories. "God has decreed about a deceased person that they should be forgotten from the heart" (Sofrim 21). If it was not possible to forget, if the pain of losing a close relative or friend remained always as immediate as when the loss first occurs, we would be immobilized, unable to cope with life. It is a blessing that while we always carry a memory of a departed loved one, we are able to remove the pain of the loss from the forefront of our consciousness. Nevertheless, this general rule does not hold here, as expressed by the famous verse in Psalms, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand be forgotten!" We are bidden never to forget! The sages, by instituting all of the laws surrounding these three weeks, made sure that at least during one long period of the year, and several other fast days year-round, not to mention the requests in our thrice-daily prayers, that we would constantly remember and never forget to mourn for Jerusalem. The Slonimer Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom Noah Barzovsky, zt"l, wrote a fascinating essay on this subject, in which he noted that central to Tisha B'Av is the idea that we are not to make our peace, ever, with the fact that the Holy Temple, the Beit Hamikdash, was destroyed. To never allow ourselves the thought that we accept the post-Temple world as the new, normal, permanent reality for us as Jews. The Temple is Jerusalem was destroyed for many reasons, some more well known than others. But that was never meant to be its final disposition. The day that we stop hoping that the Beit Hamikdash will be rebuilt is the day that its destruction will really be irreversible. This is such a basic thought that it ought to permeate all of our concerns in life. We struggle with our problems, with our kid's education, with our personal growth, with financial problems, existential problems; we look at the communal scene and the national scene both here in Israel. We listen to the pundits and "wise men" who have this solution to intractable problems or who point to that occurrence to explain the crux of our quandaries, and we forget that the main problem is Exile -- our distance from God and his Holy Temple in Jerusalem. That no matter how many problems we solve here in America and Israel, and regardless of how much we grow in our spiritual lives as Jews, we will have a huge gaping hole in our spiritual lives as long as "we have been exiled from our land, and we cannot fulfill our obligations in your great and holy House..." Why are so many Jews distant from their spiritual roots? Why are there so many terrible, endless problems between groups of Jews? How are we ever going to be able to resolve the great issues that divide us, when those matters are based on such fundamentally different outlooks on what the Torah is, what it means to be Jewish, the nature of our Jewish obligations, and how flexible can we be about adapting them for modern times? What will it take to allow myriads of Jews who have no idea of the beauty of Shabbat, keeping kosher, learning Torah, and Jewish living to even have a real glimmer of what they are missing? How will the great problems surrounding the Land of Israel ever be resolved? When we will be able to always feel the indescribable joy of being close to God without the inner contradictions and pain and difficulty, and existential loneliness that we so often feel in our spiritual quest? Our aching longings to reunite with God and rebuild the Temple are the building blocks of the eventual edifice. Although in many ways Judaism teaches that what one does is more important than what one thinks or believes, it is nevertheless true that "The longing to perform a mitzvah, or to engage in a spiritual pleasure, is even greater than the pleasure itself." The active awaiting of its rebuilding, the tears shed over its absence -- the effort to not assimilate into the surrounding culture and its alien values, but rather to strive to retain our uniquely Jewish selves -- these are what will eventually bring it back. Every tear shed and every sigh over its absence is another element in the building. Thus, says the Slonimer Rebbe, the period of the three weeks between the 17th of Tammuz and Tisha B'Av are a period of crying, but a positive period: a crying that is part of the rebuilding process. A cry of hope, of longing for a better future -- an expression from the depths of the soul that we will never be satisfied and complacent in our spiritual quest until we have achieved total Teshuva (repentance), back to the closeness with God that once was and is still potentially possible. We must certainly face life with a happy, confident attitude. We must take time to enjoy our growth, to celebrate our Jewishness, and to sing with the joy of being fortunate to be engaged in building our spiritual lives inwardly, as well as in our families and communities. But we must also take the time to mourn a little inwardly; about all the potential that is there, that is not yet being fulfilled. Only thus will we continue to grow, and look forward to the day that our inner sanctuary will be fully built, heralding the time of Mashiach, speedily in our days. This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Festival_of_Sadness.asp Click here to receive more inspiring articles like this Author Biography: Rabbi Yehuda L. Oppenheimer is the recently appointed Rabbi at the Young Israel of Forest Hills, NY, after serving in Jewish Outreach for many years in Portland, Oregon, where he & his wife Lonni helped several aish.com contributors reconnect with their Jewish roots while growing a spiritual community ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/37e54bea/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jul 30 19:05:32 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:05:32 EDT Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Message-ID: Dear Steve and all: I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a lot of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one has come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise and lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue that goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this dialogue list. Let me first repeat what does not divide us and that is we all believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are not divided over the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and as a result of that grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal commandments. The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/10b3e7e5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:10:43 -0700 Size: 14281 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/10b3e7e5/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 20:20:07 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Message-ID: <638555.19604.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Clyde & Steve, I am quite busy this week and unable to devote much time here. I think that these are important matters, and hopefully we will all spend?time?in prayer and meditation?concerning them - I know I will be. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Dear Clyde, Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way.? In the mean time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon the straight paths of the Torah.? The good news is that he is being investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are stripped away to show? him to be a true Torah teacher whose death was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who died for their convictions.? Among us, and groups like us, perhaps another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him the be Messiah ben Yosef.? This will carry a lot of weight if indeed his the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, very observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows his immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on the other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that would be a great development in this matter. Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be removed, regardless of who he is.? I venture to say, that we may not be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine act.? if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE ALL DO THIS.? I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula that I have never seen not work with my clients.? I always told them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them in the right direction to solve their problems.? This was so, because God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is really? wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told them that they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a journal of their prayers, their meditations about their situation and the answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, dreams being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this rule and requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit they would come in with a dream of the night before or a few days before, which had the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the whole solution or parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow to lay out the necessary solution. However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain prescribed disposition.? I asked them, that to obtain the healing solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain way, this way: They were to go to Him, as to a doctor.? They could tell Him about their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THE REAL PROBLEM.? ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything.? I told them my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay.? It was to take time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. They were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their problem was.? Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of the solution they were applying to their perceived problem.? As you know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real solution. Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, and here is the formula to start that.? They were to ask God to show them "the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE to the solution," which almost always is unconscious and is a lot more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level of consciousness. These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps.? Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for God always responds to pleas for help with repentance related healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy.? We need to go before God our Healer,....? naked and poor, and humble, (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle we are on??? Come now...everyone,....? I am "poking" every single person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist? to let us know what we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let the truth in about Yeshua? Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?"? Let's get to work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on us and we need to move out into His Light!! Who is willing to do that?? Let us know and let's do this "project."? we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this part of our affliction.? In case some do not know, we are in therapy NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... Steve BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers."? It is built by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. Let's go gang!!!! At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: ? Dear Steve: ? I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of? Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the other. It is little to no difference than the division between the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the two sides on the dialogue list. ? It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. ? And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua necessary as our Passover? from death to eternal life or is he not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do.? And so who has the answer to these hard questions? ? Clyde ________________________________ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/a751447c/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 30 20:41:13 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:41:13 +0000 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: <638555.19604.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <073120080141.2850.48911838000194CD00000B2222230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Clyde, Steve, Tracy and all, I too will prayerfully consider this matter and respond when I am led by HaSHeM to do so. Until then, may the SHaLoM of YHVH rest upon you and yours, Glenn -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Dear Clyde & Steve, I am quite busy this week and unable to devote much time here. I think that these are important matters, and hopefully we will all spend time in prayer and meditation concerning them - I know I will be. Love & Prayers, Tracy ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Mathe To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Dear Clyde, Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the mean time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is that he is being investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are stripped away to show him to be a true Torah teacher whose death was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who died for their convictions. Among us, and groups like us, perhaps another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him the be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a lot of weight if indeed his the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, very observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows his immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on the other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that would be a great development in this matter. Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be removed, regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we may not be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine act. if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE ALL DO THIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula that I have never seen not work with my clients. I always told them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them in the right direction to solve their problems. This was so, because God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is really wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told them that they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a journal of their prayers, their meditations about their situation and the answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, dreams being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this rule and requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit they would come in with a dream of the night before or a few days before, which had the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the whole solution or parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow to lay out the necessary solution. However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain way, this way: They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THE REAL PROBLEM. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. I told them my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. It was to take time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. They were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their problem was. Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of the solution they were applying to their perceived problem. As you know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real solution. Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God to show them "the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE to the solution," which almost always is unconscious and is a lot more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level of consciousness. These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps. Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for God always responds to pleas for help with repentance related healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We need to go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle we are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know what we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let the truth in about Yeshua? Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on us and we need to move out into His Light!! Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this "project." we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this part of our affliction. In case some do not know, we are in therapy NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... Steve BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. Let's go gang!!!! At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: Dear Steve: I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the other. It is little to no difference than the division between the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the two sides on the dialogue list. It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And so who has the answer to these hard questions? Clyde Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/dc418af0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 31 01:39:02 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:39:02 -0400 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Way of Salvation, from Adam until the end of the age: Psa. 103:8 The YHVH is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Psa. 103:9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. Psa. 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. Psa. 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; Psa. 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. Psa. 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the YHVH shows compassion to those who fear him. Psa. 103:14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. Echoed by Yeshua in his most fundamental teaching on this subject: Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: Luke 18:10 ?Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. Luke 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ?God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.? Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ?God, be merciful to me, a sinner!? Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.? On Jul 30, 2008, at 8:05 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > Dear Steve and all: > > I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your > expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have > gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a lot > of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one has > come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise and > lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue that > goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this dialogue list. > Let me first repeat what does not divide us and that is we all > believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are not divided over > the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and as a result of that > grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal commandments. > > The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the > name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death > taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a > resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare > was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the issue of death > through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the > curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the > question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case > through biblical texts > > Thank you in advance > > Clyde > > > > > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse > Fantasy Football today. > > From: Steve Mathe > Date: July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Dear Clyde, > > Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua in > the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides Jews > and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that that > division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when the > Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the mean > time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to > work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon > the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is that he is being > investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are > stripped away to show him to be a true Torah teacher whose death > was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who > died for their convictions. Among us, and groups like us, perhaps > another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings > prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the > latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him the > be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a lot of weight if indeed his > the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, very > observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows his > immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on the > other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his > followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that > would be a great development in this matter. > > Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, but > God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in conjunction, > if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that Ephraim is > bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry them. It is > this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be removed, > regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we may not be able > to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine act. if > so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, he will > be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put forth to > that effect an idea to try in this group. > > Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us have > seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an absolute > necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE ALL DO > THIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to the > gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, by > God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula that I > have never seen not work with my clients. I always told them, that > at best, I would be a technician who would point them in the right > direction to solve their problems. This was so, because God is the > ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is really wrong > with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told them that > they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a journal of > their prayers, their meditations about their situation and the > answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, dreams > being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this rule and > requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in therapy with me. > Often, on their initial visit they would come in with a dream of the > night before or a few days before, which had the diagnosis already > in it, and sometimes the whole solution or parts thereof. Often > other dreams would follow to lay out the necessary solution. > > However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain > prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing > solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain way, > this way: > > They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about > their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. > Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take > their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting > the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let > this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and > nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that > they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF > ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE > HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THE REAL PROBLEM. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, > no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. I told them > my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. It was to take > time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in > the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" > to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. They > were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their problem > was. Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of the > solution they were applying to their perceived problem. As you > know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real > solution. > > Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real > solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, > and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God to show > them "the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE > to the solution," which almost always is unconscious and is a lot > more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is > like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level > of consciousness. > > These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could > not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified > and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps. > Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for God > always responds to pleas for help with repentance related healing. > This is what He wants us to do the most. > > Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the > Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We need to > go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, > (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, > and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold > dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle we > are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single > person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him > examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what > the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even > before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know what > we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let > the truth in about Yeshua? > > Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big for > us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first > contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to > work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true > they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be > corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... > let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on > us and we need to move out into His Light!! > Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this > "project." we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this > part of our affliction. In case some do not know, we are in therapy > NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! > > Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... > > Steve > > BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize > this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built > by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers > Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to > build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to > direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of > beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. > > Let's go gang!!!! > > > > > At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: >> >> Dear Steve: >> >> I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this >> dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah >> and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement >> by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But >> there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the >> other. It is little to no difference than the division between the >> disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and >> the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far >> as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his >> generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far >> as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did >> the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the >> redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the >> two sides on the dialogue list. >> >> It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple >> between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me >> I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua >> plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side >> I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their >> conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. >> And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be >> penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on >> either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up >> their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can >> avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of what the life, >> death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d >> redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong >> opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua >> in the redemption plan of G-d. >> >> And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that >> divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted >> nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet >> occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua >> necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? >> Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? >> Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say >> yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The >> wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And >> so who has the answer to these hard questions? >> >> Clyde >> >> >> >> >> >> Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse >> Fantasy Football today. >> _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/9703578f/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Jul 31 01:44:43 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:44:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Longing for a better future" In-Reply-To: References: <200807301558.m6UFwJxr021205@mail134c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200807310647.m6V6l9Aq021726@mail2505.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080730/b0f1a928/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jul 31 06:38:55 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:38:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 'Tisha B'Av: The Beauty of the Universe' Message-ID: _Rav Kook on the Torah Portion_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) _Tisha B'Av_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TISHA-BAV-68.htm) The Beauty of the Universe ____________________________________ _Gold from the Land of Israel_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/book-gold.htm) 368 pages, hardcover, online price: $20.50 ____________________________________ Tisha B'Av: The Beauty of the Universe Every day we pray that the Beit HaMikdash may be rebuilt. Why is this spiritual center so important for us? The Sages noted that the words Dei'ah (knowledge) and Mikdash (Temple) are both mentioned in verses surrounded by God's Name on either side (I Sam. 2:3 and Ex. 15:17). What is the connection between them? "Rabbi Elazar said: Whenever a person has Dei'ah (knowledge) - it is as if the Holy Temple has been built in his days." [Berachot 33a] What did Rabbi Elazar mean by 'a person with Dei'ah'? And what does erudition have to do with rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash? True Da'at We must first understand the concept of Dei'ah or Da'at. Dei'ah means much more than being knowledgeable. The problem with those lacking Dei'ah is that they try to evaluate all matters only using their powers of logic and reasoning. They fail to recognize that the intellect is but one part of the human soul. In addition to one's intellectual abilities, there are character traits, emotions, and the faculty of imagination. True Da'at is knowing how to utilize all facets of the soul. Spiritual growth and perfection may only be achieved with the wholeness of the entire Torah and all pathways of faith. The Beauty of the Universe But what does this have to do with the Beit HaMikdash? The Sages referred to the Temple as "the beauty of the universe" [Zevachim 54b]. Why did they single out beauty as its principle characteristic? This statement is significant, for it indicates the central function of the Beit HaMikdash: to engage our aesthetic senses and elevate our imaginative faculties. The Temple promotes the world's spiritual advance through the power of imagination - a formidable aspect of the human soul that has a decisive impact on all actions. When the Beit HaMikdash stood in Jerusalem, it had a profound influence on the imagination; it projected powerful images of sublime holiness and inspiring splendor. This holy influence in turn had a potent impact on the character traits and conduct of those who merited visiting its gates. We may discern two aspects of the Temple's influence. The first is in terms of the Temple's own intrinsic holiness, and the impact of this holiness on the those who observed its Divine service. The second aspect is in terms of the receptivity of the human soul. God prepared the imaginative powers so that the soul may be receptive to the Temple's splendor and holiness. These two aspects correspond to the two Names of God, placed before and after the words Dei'ah and Mikdash. Elevating the Imagination Now we may understand Rabbi Elazar's statement. A person with Dei'ah - a person who recognizes and values all faculties of the soul, including his powers of imagination - it is as if the Beit HaMikdash was rebuilt in his days. In his wisdom, he is able to recreate for himself and those around him a small measure of the Temple's holy influence. He recognizes that his imagination was created for a sacred purpose. In the eyes of cold logic it may appear to be worthless, but God placed it in the human soul for its ability to promote spiritual growth. A person with Dei'ah is able to elevate all of his faculties in true holiness. This is how Rav Kook described the aesthetic attraction of the Temple service in his spiritual journal: "The sublime beauty, the Divine splendor, draws the soul to itself. It awakens the soul from its sleep and rejuvenates all of its powers. It shines over the soul like sunlight over a treasured plant, cultivating all of its aspects, full of strength and beauty, pleasantness and vitality. "Our yearnings to be connected to the Temple - to God's house on the mountain summit, to the service of the kohanim, the song of the Levites, and the ma'amad of Israel, to share all of the nation's soul-ties to its holy abode - these yearnings awaken the 'beauty of the universe' in the hearts of Israel each day. They establish an elevated Temple inside the soul of each individual, as we begin the day recounting the order of offerings and incense in our morning prayers." [Shemonah Kevatzim vol. I sec. 606] [Adapted from Ein Ayah vol. II p. 157] Rav Kook on the Net: _RavKookTorah.org_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) This week's Dvar Torah: _RavKook.co.nr_ (http://www.ravkook.co.nr/) This Dvar Torah: _TISHA-BAV-68.htm _ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TISHA-BAV-68.htm) To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: _Rav Kook List_ (mailto:RavKookList at gmail.com) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com http://ravkooktorah.org - Rav A.I. Kook on the Weekly Parasha **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/c3d779f8/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Jul 31 07:57:12 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:57:12 EDT Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Message-ID: Dear James: Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. And yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. When G-D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of the forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take of the tree of life and live forever. We find that outside the Garden sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the acceptable sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. We know the outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was needed. Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of Adam. In all the wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal life. Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through resurrection? If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures you have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is pasted again below: The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/47cc8dcc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Tabor Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:39:02 -0400 Size: 49648 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/47cc8dcc/attachment.mht From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 31 12:32:26 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:32:26 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <073120081732.17317.4891F72A0003F344000043A522218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Clyde, With all due respect I offer the following observations and references. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:4, 20 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 So the Tenakh (out of the mouth of two or three witnesses - I have provided from each part) seems to indicate that death results when individuals sin, and not through inheritance from our fathers. But it also says the following: But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:21 Since we all know that as a human this body will die, the prophet is obviously referring to eternal death. It clearly states that those who turn from ALL their sins, and keep ALL the statutes of YHVH (Moses said it is NOT too hard for you), then that SOUL will not die. In my mind, this is eternal life. Glenn -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- Dear James: Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. And yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. When G-D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of the forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take of the tree of life and live forever. We find that outside the Garden sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the acceptable sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. We know the outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was needed. Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of Adam. In all the wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal life. Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through resurrection? If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures you have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is pasted again below: The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/a1971e14/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jul 31 15:47:12 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:47:12 -0400 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the texts, and many more like them, speak for themselves. Nothing is needed other than the honest and humble heart turning to HaShem. It has always been that way. The tax collector did not need to believe in Yeshua or anyone else, just to turn to God, as Yeshua taught. Abraham was "justified" by his faith, not in a sacrifice on the cross, but that he trusted YHVH. I think this whole theological construct you are reflecting is not found anywhere in the Torah or Prophets that I know of. I realize this means a great deal to you and I do not want to debate it but your persistence in putting forth this human sacrifice idea, in the face of texts like Micah 6 and many others, is to me a Christian/Pauline construct. The "curse" as you call it (and the Hebrew does not really carry that idea at all) is "lifted" as soon as one is forgiven of sins--which comes as one turns to YHVH in repentance and faith. Nothing more is needed. The Hebrew Scriptures are plain...This is something to celebrate and the idea that God can not freely forgive, as a father does a son, as I understand it, undermines the very nature of God. Pagans for centuries believed that they needed to shed blood, even human blood, to somehow placate the God/gods, or they could never be favored. When we forgive our children we do not have to shed any blood, and the Scriptures say as a father forgives a son, so YHVH does those who fear Him.... James On Jul 31, 2008, at 8:57 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > Dear James: > > Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that > declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. And > yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. When G- > D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about > sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not > eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was > either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of the > forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take of > the tree of life and live forever. We find that outside the Garden > sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the acceptable > sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. We know the > outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was needed. > > Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his > name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the > royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of > Adam. In all the wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one > informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the > promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal > life. Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of > eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through > resurrection? If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance > of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that > is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a > temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple > institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures > you have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the > curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is > pasted again below: > > The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the > name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death > taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a > resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare > was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the issue of death > through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the > curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the > question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case > through biblical texts > > Thank you in advance > > Clyde > > > > > > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse > Fantasy Football today. > > From: James Tabor > Date: July 31, 2008 2:39:02 AM EDT > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work > Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > The Way of Salvation, from Adam until the end of the age: > > > Psa. 103:8 The YHVH is merciful and gracious, > slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. > Psa. 103:9 He will not always chide, > nor will he keep his anger forever. > Psa. 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, > nor repay us according to our iniquities. > Psa. 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, > so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; > Psa. 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, > so far does he remove our transgressions from us. > Psa. 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, > so the YHVH shows compassion to those who fear him. > Psa. 103:14 For he knows our frame; > he remembers that we are dust. > > Echoed by Yeshua in his most fundamental teaching on this subject: > > Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in > themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: > Luke 18:10 ?Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee > and the other a tax collector. > Luke 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ?God, I > thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, > adulterers, or even like this tax collector. > Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.? > Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even > lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ?God, be > merciful to me, a sinner!? > Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, > rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be > humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.? > > > On Jul 30, 2008, at 8:05 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dear Steve and all: >> >> I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your >> expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have >> gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a >> lot of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one >> has come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise >> and lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue >> that goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this dialogue >> list. Let me first repeat what does not divide us and that is we >> all believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are not divided >> over the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and as a result of >> that grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal commandments. >> >> The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the >> name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of >> death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal >> without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the >> apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the >> issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, >> then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each >> will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please >> make your case through biblical texts >> >> Thank you in advance >> >> Clyde >> >> >> >> >> Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse >> Fantasy Football today. >> >> From:Steve Mathe >> Date:July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM EDT >> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject:Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work >> Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> >> Dear Clyde, >> >> Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua >> in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides >> Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that >> that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when >> the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the mean >> time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to >> work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon >> the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is that he is being >> investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are >> stripped away to show him to be a true Torah teacher whose death >> was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who >> died for their convictions. Among us, and groups like us, perhaps >> another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings >> prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the >> latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him >> the be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a lot of weight if indeed >> his the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, >> very observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows >> his immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on >> the other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his >> followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that >> would be a great development in this matter. >> >> Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, >> but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in >> conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that >> Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry >> them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be >> removed, regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we may not >> be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine >> act. if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, >> he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put >> forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. >> >> Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us >> have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an >> absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE >> ALLDOTHIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to >> the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, >> by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula >> that I have never seen not work with my clients. I always told >> them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them in >> the right direction to solve their problems. This was so, because >> God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is >> really wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told >> them that they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a >> journal of their prayers, their meditations about their situation >> and the answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, >> dreams being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this >> rule and requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in >> therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit they would come in >> with a dream of the night before or a few days before, which had >> the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the whole solution or >> parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow to lay out the >> necessary solution. >> >> However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain >> prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing >> solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain way, >> this way: >> >> They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about >> their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. >> Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take >> their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting >> the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let >> this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and >> nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that >> they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF >> ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE >> HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THEREALPROBLEM. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, no >> holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. I told them my >> fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. It was to take >> time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in >> the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" >> to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. >> They were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their >> problem was. Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of >> the solution they were applying to their perceived problem. As you >> know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real >> solution. >> >> Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real >> solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, >> and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God to show >> them"the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE >> to the solution,"which almost always is unconscious and is a lot >> more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is >> like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level >> of consciousness. >> >> These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could >> not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified >> and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps. >> Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for >> Godalwaysresponds to pleas for help with repentance related >> healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. >> >> Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the >> Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We need to >> go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, >> (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, >> and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold >> dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle >> we are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single >> person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him >> examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what >> the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even >> before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know what >> we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let >> the truth in about Yeshua? >> >> Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big >> for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first >> contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to >> work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true >> they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be >> corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... >> let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on >> us and we need to move out into His Light!! >> Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this "project." >> we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this part of our >> affliction. In case some do not know, we are in therapy NOW. We >> need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! >> >> Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... >> >> Steve >> >> BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize >> this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built >> by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers >> Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to >> build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to >> direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of >> beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. >> >> Let's go gang!!!! >> >> >> >> >> At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: >>> >>> Dear Steve: >>> >>> I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this >>> dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah >>> and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement >>> by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But >>> there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the >>> other. It is little to no difference than the division between the >>> disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and >>> the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far >>> as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his >>> generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far >>> as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did >>> the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the >>> redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between >>> the two sides on the dialogue list. >>> >>> It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple >>> between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me >>> I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that >>> Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the >>> other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge >>> from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption >>> plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall >>> cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad >>> folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to >>> have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe >>> it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of >>> what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan >>> of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold >>> strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for >>> Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. >>> >>> And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that >>> divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted >>> nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet >>> occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua >>> necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? >>> Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? >>> Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say >>> yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The >>> wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And >>> so who has the answer to these hard questions? >>> >>> Clyde >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse >>> Fantasy Football today. >>> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > = _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/8dafbec9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jul 31 15:59:38 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:59:38 -0500 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very well said, James, even if you are my brother. Your first three sentences say it all. I think the texts, and many more like them, speak for themselves. Nothing is needed other than the honest and humble heart turning to HaShem. It has always been that way. Thanks, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 3:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work I think the texts, and many more like them, speak for themselves. Nothing is needed other than the honest and humble heart turning to HaShem. It has always been that way. The tax collector did not need to believe in Yeshua or anyone else, just to turn to God, as Yeshua taught. Abraham was "justified" by his faith, not in a sacrifice on the cross, but that he trusted YHVH. I think this whole theological construct you are reflecting is not found anywhere in the Torah or Prophets that I know of. I realize this means a great deal to you and I do not want to debate it but your persistence in putting forth this human sacrifice idea, in the face of texts like Micah 6 and many others, is to me a Christian/Pauline construct. The "curse" as you call it (and the Hebrew does not really carry that idea at all) is "lifted" as soon as one is forgiven of sins--which comes as one turns to YHVH in repentance and faith. Nothing more is needed. The Hebrew Scriptures are plain...This is something to celebrate and the idea that God can not freely forgive, as a father does a son, as I understand it, undermines the very nature of God. Pagans for centuries believed that they needed to shed blood, even human blood, to somehow placate the God/gods, or they could never be favored. When we forgive our children we do not have to shed any blood, and the Scriptures say as a father forgives a son, so YHVH does those who fear Him.... James On Jul 31, 2008, at 8:57 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: Dear James: Thanks for taking the time to post the wonderful scriptures that declare the mercy of Ha Shem. The grace of G-D is truly amazing. And yes we must begin in the beginning with Adam as well as Eve. When G-D placed them in the garden, he did not speak to them about sacrifice and offerings. He gave them a simple commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The choice was either to believe G-D or the serpent. The outcome from eating of the forbidden tree was to be cast out of the Garden lest they take of the tree of life and live forever. We find that outside the Garden sacrifice and offerings were instituted. Abel brought the acceptable sacrifice but Cain did not, and G-D was angry with Cain. We know the outcome of that Cain slew Abel and now another seed was needed. Adam knew his wife again and Eve bore him a son and they called his name Seth, said she G-D has given me another seed. And so in the royal linage we have Adam the son of G-D and then Seth the son of Adam. In all the wonderful scriptures you have quoted not one informs us of the curse of death through sin is taken away with the promise of being raised from the dead by a resurrection to eternal life. Can the blood of bulls and goats take away the curse of eternal death and give the promise of eternal life through resurrection? If the blood of bulls and goats can give inheritance of eternal life by taking away the curse of eternal death, and that is the way G-D has determined - then we had better be praying for a temple and the sacrifices re-instituted which is what the temple institute is all about. And so, as wonderful as all the scriptures you have quoted, none speak of the resurrection of the dead, or the curse of death taken away. And so the question asked remains and is pasted again below: The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yeshua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. From: James Tabor Date: July 31, 2008 2:39:02 AM EDT To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org The Way of Salvation, from Adam until the end of the age: Psa. 103:8 The YHVH is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. Psa. 103:9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. Psa. 103:10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. Psa. 103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; Psa. 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us. Psa. 103:13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the YHVH shows compassion to those who fear him. Psa. 103:14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. Echoed by Yeshua in his most fundamental teaching on this subject: Luke 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. Luke 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." On Jul 30, 2008, at 8:05 PM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: Dear Steve and all: I want to express gratitude to you Steve for sharing your expedience's working with folks in therapy. It is clear you have gained wisdom both from this and your biblical studies. I find a lot of value to what you write. But now to my point, since no one has come forward to take up your challenge I will take your advise and lay myself out for scrutiny by all by setting forth the issue that goes to the heart and core of what divides us on this dialogue list. Let me first repeat what does not divide us and that is we all believe we need to keep the Torah of G-D. We are not divided over the fact that the grace of G-D comes first, and as a result of that grace we are obligated to keep the covenantal commandments. The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. From:Steve Mathe Date:July 29, 2008 1:10:43 PM EDT To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:Re: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Reply-To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Dear Clyde, Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. The place of Yeshua in the redemption plan of God is indeed a conundrum that divides Jews and Christians in a major and intractable way. It seems that that division is here to stay for a while, till the very end when the Messiah appears and does his work in a visible way. In the mean time we, who expect the Messiah on both sides of the aisle have to work together in our separate areas of influence and converge upon the straight paths of the Torah. The good news is that he is being investigated more than ever and the false associations with him are stripped away to show him to be a true Torah teacher whose death was at least to be counted among the great martyrs of Judaism who died for their convictions. Among us, and groups like us, perhaps another hopeful development is that if his influence and sayings prove to be of gathering significance to the Ten Tribes in the latter days, it will galvanize the movement and perhaps show him the be Messiah ben Yosef. This will carry a lot of weight if indeed his the latter day followers will be like his initial followers, very observant. I have a historical reference somewhere, that shows his immediate followers to be more observant than their accusers on the other side of the aisle. If this could be replicated among his followers today, especially among the Ten Tribes movement, that would be a great development in this matter. Am of the opinion, that no one can break a whole in this matter, but God. If we are to have any part in that, it will be in conjunction, if not directly by His revelation. Hosea tells us that Ephraim is bound to his idols, and was to be left alone to carry them. It is this idolatry associated with Yeshua that needs to be removed, regardless of who he is. I venture to say, that we may not be able to do it entirely by ourselves. It may have to be a Divine act. if so, we have nothing to fear, for be he the Messiah or not, he will be restored to who was and is. If I may, I venture to put forth to that effect an idea to try in this group. Am sure the basic foundation of this is not new, and many of us have seen the reliance on God's revelation in our lives to be an absolute necessity. I recommend that we all try this, in fact WE ALLDOTHIS. I mean ALL, for there is strength in numbers coming to the gates of the King with the same query. When I had my practice, by God's grace, I have been afforded the discovery of a formula that I have never seen not work with my clients. I always told them, that at best, I would be a technician who would point them in the right direction to solve their problems. This was so, because God is the ultimate doctor and therapist who can diagnose what is really wrong with them and prescribe the appropriate remedy. I told them that they will have to beseech God to that effect, and keep a journal of their prayers, their meditations about their situation and the answers they will receive, be they through whatever means, dreams being chief of them. There were to be no exceptions to this rule and requirement, and was a "must" if they were to be in therapy with me. Often, on their initial visit they would come in with a dream of the night before or a few days before, which had the diagnosis already in it, and sometimes the whole solution or parts thereof. Often other dreams would follow to lay out the necessary solution. However, they all had to ask in a certain way, and have a certain prescribed disposition. I asked them, that to obtain the healing solution to their problem, they were to approach God a certain way, this way: They were to go to Him, as to a doctor. They could tell Him about their problem, however, they were to not to tell Him what to do. Rather they were to go, just as to a human doctor, ready to take their clothes off. They were to go psychologically naked, letting the Doctor look and examine where-ever He wants. They were to let this examination extend to any and all parts of their lives, and nothing was to be off limits. The caveat to this procedure was that they had to be ready to accept the Doctor's advice and LET GO OF ANYTHING THEY HELD DEAR IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE DIAGNOSIS AND THE HEALING PRESCRIPTION TO THEREALPROBLEM. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING, no holds barred. They had to be ready to pay anything. I told them my fee, and that that was the least they had to pay. It was to take time in writing in their journals, and praying and being active in the process. I told them it would take them "blood sweat and tears" to obtain the truth about themselves and to apply the solution. They were to be willing to let go of any conviction of what their problem was. Most importantly they were to be ready to let go of the solution they were applying to their perceived problem. As you know, often their "solution" was an obstacle to obtain the real solution. Letting go of this wrong solution or any obstacle to the real solution was often the major part of therapy. Doing so is not easy, and here is the formula to start that. They were to ask God to show them"the FIRST step to take to begin to deal with their RESISTANCE to the solution,"which almost always is unconscious and is a lot more powerful and intractable than their conscious willpower. It is like an iceberg, most of which is under water, i.e. below the level of consciousness. These steps were necessary, for the obstacle and resistance could not be assaulted directly due to its long time embedded, ossified and petrified enormity. It could be approached only in small steps. Whoever did this, they always received the answer promptly, for Godalwaysresponds to pleas for help with repentance related healing. This is what He wants us to do the most. Gang, are we willing to do this formula given the affliction of the Yeshua question? It certainly meets the iceberg analogy. We need to go before God our Healer,.... naked and poor, and humble, (nakedness humbles us), and assume that we do not know the answer, and that we are ready to let go of anything and EVERYTHING we hold dear about this conundrum... regardless of what side of the aisle we are on? Come now...everyone,.... I am "poking" every single person on this list to really "go naked before God," and let Him examine us, and our dearly held beliefs, and let Him tell us what the Truth is about this Yeshua conundrum. Most importantly, even before that, we need to ask the Great Therapist to let us know what we each individually need to do to deal with our resistance to let the truth in about Yeshua? Some might say, that this is too daunting an idea and is too big for us... well, what are we here for in this calling of "the first contingent to arise from the Valley of Dry bones?" Let's get to work gang!! There is nothing to fear, if the convictions are true they will be verified, if they are mixed with error, they will be corrected, if we are wrong, we will be corrected and liberated... let's get out of our dark prison houses, His light has shone in on us and we need to move out into His Light!! Who is willing to do that? Let us know and let's do this "project." we are called to a Work, and we need "to work" on this part of our affliction. In case some do not know, we are in therapy NOW. We need to do this, to be of use in the work of Eli Y-h!! Let's go gang!! It is time to move on this!! NOW.... Steve BTW, if you do not know already, an alternate way to conceptualize this, it is the building of "the Mishkan of Prayers." It is built by all of called Israel, Jews and Ten Tribers, in whose prayers Hashem's Presence, the Shekhinah dwells. We desperately need to build this edifice, so we can have the Divine Guidance therein to direct us on our journey homeward in the midbar / wilderness of beliefs, philosophies, outlooks, theologies and isms of the nations. Let's go gang!!!! At 07:15 AM 7/29/2008, you wrote: Dear Steve: I appreciate your comments and thoughts on reconciliation on this dialogue as well as the reconciliation between the house of Judah and the house of Ephraim. As far as I can tell there is agreement by all on the list in regard to keeping the Torah of Ha Shem. But there is a wall a stumbling if you will between one side with the other. It is little to no difference than the division between the disciples of Yeshua who believed he was the promised messiah, and the Jewish authorities who saw him as a messiah pretender. As far as the historical ministry of Yeshua in his attempt to return his generation back to the old paths, there is no disagreement as far as I can observe by any on the list. What divides us is what did the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua accomplish in the redemption plan of Ha Shem? This is the wall that is up between the two sides on the dialogue list. It is the same division that caused the heat in late second temple between the Jewish authorities and the followers of Yeshua. For me I will not for a moment budge from my strong conviction that Yeshua plays a major part in the redemption plan of G-d. On the other side I would venture to say that they too would not budge from their conviction that Yeshua is not needed in the redemption plan of G-d. And so what are we to do since it seems the wall cannot be penetrated by either side? It is not that there is bad folks on either side of the wall, it is just each side seems to have made up their minds on what they believe and why they believe it. We can avoid disagreement by staying away from the issue of what the life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua means in the plan of G-d redeeming the world through him, that some of us hold strong opinions, while the other side of the wall see no need for Yeshua in the redemption plan of G-d. And so if someone has a way to break a hole in the wall that divides us I would appreciate hearing it. That wall has lasted nearly two-thousand years now, and no breach of the wall has yet occurred. This is where the rubber meets the road - Is Yeshua necessary as our Passover from death to eternal life or is he not? Do we need to go through Yeshua to obtain the grace of G-d or not? Is Yeshua our high priest or not? One side of the wall would say yes to all the questions, while the other side will say no. The wall is there my friends an no amount of denying it will do. And so who has the answer to these hard questions? Clyde _____ Get fantasy football with free live scoring.Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ = _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/30d68c40/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 31 17:12:10 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 08:12:10 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The need for blood sacrifice Message-ID: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> Shalom, James Tabor and Betty Givin believe they have said it all, " Nothing is needed other than honest... heart turning (ie repentance )(my brackets). It has always been that way." That leaves a rather obvious question..." What was the purpose of sacrifice in the Wilderness Tabernacle and in the Temples' services? At the time of the institution of these sacrificial services were they not necessary? Were they not instituted at the express command of God? Brian McFarlane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080801/72e51cd8/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 31 17:42:44 2008 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:42:44 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The need for blood sacrifice In-Reply-To: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <073120082242.21029.48923FE3000D37060000522522218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net> Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Psalms 40:6 And now, Israel, what doth YHVH thy God require of thee, but to fear YHVH thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve YHVH thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, To keep the commandments of YHVH, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good? Deuteronomy 10:12-13 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHVH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith YHVH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHVH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:11-18 -------------- Original message from "Brian McFarlane" : -------------- Shalom, James Tabor and Betty Givin believe they have said it all, " Nothing is needed other than honest... heart turning (ie repentance )(my brackets). It has always been that way." That leaves a rather obvious question..." What was the purpose of sacrifice in the Wilderness Tabernacle and in the Temples' services? At the time of the institution of these sacrificial services were they not necessary? Were they not instituted at the express command of God? Brian McFarlane -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/3b41a729/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 17:53:27 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The need for blood sacrifice In-Reply-To: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340807311512i76e2c8b5vbf48992a20dec45f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Excuse me, Brian, but where did HaSHem ever tell us in Torah that He would require human sacrifice as did the pagan gods? I can find no such reference. Yes, He very plainly told us about animal sacrifice, but why on earth would He blatantly omit such a horrendous requirement as human sacrifice? There's something very important missing here, and that is the Scriptural evidence, which, of course, must come from the Tenach. I can only find evidence that contradicts your assertion. Avigail/Pat From: Brian McFarlane Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:12 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The need for blood sacrifice Shalom, James Tabor and Betty Givin believe they have said it all, " Nothing is needed other than honest... heart turning (ie repentance )(my brackets). It has always been that way." That leaves a rather obvious question..." What was the purpose of sacrifice in the Wilderness Tabernacle and in the Temples' services? At the time of the institution of these sacrificial services were they not necessary? Were they not instituted at the express command of God? Brian McFarlane -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/5e8eaca5/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Jul 31 21:35:16 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:35:16 -0500 Subject: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work References: Message-ID: <000001c8f37f$aaddd500$6400a8c0@davesbook> My Reply. Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. >From the day that "mankind" ate from the knowledge tree, we have been dying.....I wonder what mankind would have been like if the soil-man, Adam, had "heard" the creator and been faithful to what He said. But he did eat....and dying we are, to this very day. So then the creator hides or protects the tree of life so we cant eat it. To me the question should be how do we get to eat of this life tree? Is this tree a man that we should "eat of " or is it a book of instructions that we are to happily follow....and live?.... This in my opinion is as simple as the warning/advise that was given to Cain in Gen. 4:6,7 Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. To me, and agian this is just my opinion, that this desire for "insight and knowledge" is the very thing that could hold us back from the simple truth that our heavenly father loves us and wants us to seek his face, not create and serve a religion or sacrificial system to try and please him....in the end he just wants us. My choice of "biblical text" here would have to be Ecc. 12 vs 9-14 Ecc 12:9 ? And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, [and] set in order many proverbs. Ecc 12:10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and [that which was] written [was] upright, [even] words of truth. Ecc 12:11 ? The words of the wise [are] as goads, and as nails fastened [by] the masters of assemblies, [which] are given from one shepherd. Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh. Ecc 12:13 ? Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. smile Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Fwd: Subject:[Dialogue] A call to Work Dear Steve and all: The issue I wish to set forth is this. Do all that call upon the name of Ha Shem need to believe in Yeshua to have the curse of death taken away? I think all would agree that death is eternal without a resurrection from the dead. If the curse is as the apostles declare was taken on the cross of Yehsua that solves the issue of death through sin. However, if the apostles were wrong, then how is the curse of death through sin taken away? How each will answer the question I think can benefit each of us. Please make your case through biblical texts Thank you in advance Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/2deec590/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080731/2deec590/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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