From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Jun 1 01:26:02 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 16:26:02 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE OTHER MATTHEW.] Message-ID: <484240FA.6070202@westnet.com.au> Shalom Clyde, my apologies if I have confused you. I guess you have to look at the timing of my posts. I started with a general post to all. Brian then responded . I then addressed his post and then reverted back to the general post , followed by another general post. In the midst of all of this my post regarding Javan which was sent pre Shabbat popped up. It had been delayed by the administrator due to the size. I have put in some time now as I am going to have a hectic week at work. I also apologize at the size of some of the posts. It has been hard for me to keep up let alone the readers. Dear HaShem give me the strength to keep up. Sorry for any inconvenience. Shalom v' Ahavat JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE OTHER MATTHEW. Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 21:33:44 EDT Size: 18155 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/94c18954/attachment.eml From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 04:56:21 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 05:56:21 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] About those "delusions.." Message-ID: The Delusions of the Left 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 07:13 by ???? ????? "Fundamentally Freund" - Michael Freund (IsraelNN.com) This past Monday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a Knesset Committee that anyone who believes in the idea of "Greater Israel" is a "delusional fantasist". But in reality, as I argue in the column below, the true "delusional fantasists" are those who persist in clinging to the false hope of forging an even falser peace after 15 years of ongoing Palestinian violence, terror and obstructionism. Believing in the right of the Jewish people to the entire Land of Israel is neither delusional nor fantasy. It has been the basis of our faith, and the core of our national dream, for the past 2,000 years, and over the past six decades we have seen it begin to come to pass. And soon enough, the promise of "Greater Israel" will yet come true. The real "delusional fantasists" By Michael Freund Ladies and gentlemen, we have a slight problem on our hands. This coming Sunday night marks the start of Yom Yerushalayim, the annual celebration of Jerusalem's liberation during the heroic 1967 Six-Day War. Normally speaking, it is a day filled with cheer. Special prayers are recited in synagogues around the world, marches, ceremonies and commemorations are held, and crowds of visitors flock to the Old City to stroll through its narrow streets, caress the gentle stones of the Western Wall, and savor the holiness in the air. But here's the glitch: just how exactly are we supposed to rejoice over Jerusalem's reunification this year when the Israeli government is now actively seeking to divide it? It almost seems like throwing a large wedding anniversary party in the middle of divorce proceedings. Sure, the negotiations with the Palestinians may or may not be getting anywhere, depending on the latest spin being circulated in the media. And the current governing coalition, along with its policy of concessions, might in any event be gone before we know it. But all that is beside the point. The very fact that Jerusalem is on the table just 41 years after its miraculous emancipation from the shackles of foreign control cannot help but cast a menacing shadow over the festivities. And yet, oddly enough, despite the uncertainty hanging over the fate of our capital, I intend to whoop it up and revel fully in the spirit of the day. And you should too. Here's why: the jig is up for the Left and its supporters. TRY AS they might to let the air out of the balloons, those in favor of tearing apart Jerusalem cannot, and will not, succeed. They and their ideological fellow-travelers are running out of steam, and they long ago ran out of political vision and courage, so it is only a matter of time before their outmoded policies become a thing of the past. Point of fact: for the past 15 years, ever since the signing of the Oslo Accords, various Israeli leaders have been coaxing and cajoling, pleading and pressing, and even begging and beseeching the Palestinians to make peace with us. And all they have to show for it is a string of failures and half-a-dozen worthless agreements, topped off by a steady stream of Kassam rockets now raining down on Sderot and the Negev. And yet, that doesn't seem to stop the proponents of retreat from hurling invective at those of us who refuse to buy into their forlorn worldview. "Delusional fantasists." That is how Prime Minister Ehud Olmert referred to those who believe in the vision of Greater Israel when he appeared before the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday. "Only fantasists," he said, "can believe that in this day and age, and in the current situation, it is still possible to cling to the vision of 'Greater Israel.' " But who is really being delusional here? Is it Israel's Right, which has warned from the start about the dangers of appeasing Palestinian terror, or those who persist in clinging to a false hope of forging an even falser peace? With all due respect to Mr. Olmert, repeatedly banging one's head against the wall of Palestinian obstructionism in the hopes of making peace, even as more and more blood pours forth with each blow, hardly seems to qualify as rational behavior or intelligent policy-making. If anyone is delusional, it is those who still think that dividing the land of Israel will appease the Palestinian appetite, and quench their thirst for dismantling the Jewish state once and for all. Believing in the right of the Jewish people to the entire Land of Israel is neither delusional nor fantasy. It has been the basis of our faith, and the core of our national dream, for the past 2,000 years. It was a Divine promise to our ancestors, and it has propelled our people over the past century to climb out of exile and to continue to strive. And over the past six decades we have seen it begin to come to pass. Herzl too was mocked in similar terms when he boldly predicted the establishment of a Jewish state. Back in 1897, the great Zionist thinker Ahad Ha'am wrote this about Herzl's vision: "only a fantasy bordering on madness can believe that so soon as the Jewish State is established millions of Jews will flock to it, and the land will afford them adequate sustenance." GUESS WHAT? It happened. Just look around at what Israel has accomplished in the past 60 years. So in the spirit of the day, I'm going to keep right on celebrating the return of Jerusalem to Jewish control, confident in the knowledge that those who raise a hand against her will not succeed. And I take solace from a passage in the Talmud in Tractate Taanit (29a), which is well worth pondering as we mark Yom Yerushalayim. The Talmud there contains a description of how the two Temples in Jerusalem were destroyed, centuries apart, by the Babylonians and then by the Romans. In both cases, when the attackers entered the Temple grounds, it occurred on a Sunday. Nevertheless, says the Talmud, the Levites on duty were singing the Song of the Day normally recited on Wednesdays. Rabbi Nachman Kahane points out that Wednesday's song, which is Chapter 94 of the Book of Psalms, begins with the words, "O G-d of vengeance, L-rd, O G-d of vengeance, appear!" The Levites, he explains, seeing that the Temple was about to fall into enemy hands, issued a last-minute plea to G-d to avenge its capture, hence they chose Wednesday's song. But why specifically Wednesday? Jump ahead nearly 2,000 years to the Six Day War, when Israeli soldiers ascended the Temple Mount and restored it to Jewish control. The day that took place was June 7, 1967 which was, of course, a? Wednesday. And so the historical circle was closed. Go ahead, dismiss it all as a coincidence, if you wish. But don't go calling it "fantasy." The promise of Greater Israel will yet come true. Just you wait and see. --- from the May 28 Jerusalem Post _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/f9bc263d/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 05:06:52 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:06:52 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? Message-ID: Boker tov L'Kulchem, Below is something I received from another email list, that really meant a lot to me. It was written by Eric Hoffer, whose book, The True Believer meant so much to me (although I only read it in my "post-revolutionary" phase). VERY worth reading! Hanoch *WRITTEN IN 1968 - Astonishing* Do you remember Eric Hoffer? He was a longshoreman who turned into a philosopher, wrote columns for newspapers and some books. He was a non-Jewish American social philosopher. He was born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, published in 1951, was widely recognized as a classic. Here is one of his columns *from 1968*. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? This article was written 40 years ago!!! Some things never change. *ISRAEL**'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68)* * * The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But, when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway. The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment, Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer, [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war, to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us all. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/9f15c362/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 05:40:47 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:40:47 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov, This is an interesting article from this week's Parsha (Torah Portion) which ties in Shavuot, which is slightly more then one week away.... Hanoch Bamidbar: Torah Courage 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 01:26 by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin (IsraelNN.com) "And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuven, Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Shimon, Shelimuiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah, Nachshon the son of Aminadav.... " (Numbers 1:5-7) For as long as I can remember, Orthodox Judaism has been perceived by much of the world - even the Orthodox world - as a conservative, sheltered, old-fashioned way of life, unwilling to take risks in the face of new challenges, preferring to retreat into its own shell like a turtle. A Midrashic comment on this week's portion of Bamidbar makes the point that a conservative, risk-free existence is not a genuine Torah value. Certainly standing by on the sidelines is hardly a characteristic to be found in the person of Nachshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who jumped into the Reed Sea in advance of the Egyptians. It was only after his demonstration of faith that the Almighty went the next step and split the Reed Sea. The Midrash (also recorded in Bava Batra 91a) points out that this courageous Nachshon had four sons, including Elimelech, husband of Naomi, and Shalmon, father of Boaz; hence, Nachshon was father and grandfather of two major personalities in the Scroll of Ruth, which we will be reading shortly on Shavuot. In presenting such a genealogy, the Midrash stresses not only the characteristics of risk-taking by the descendants of Nachshon, but also what kind of risks are favored by the Torah and what kind are not. The fact is that courage and risk-taking, or the lack of it, may be seen as an underlying theme of the whole book of Bamidbar. The fourth book of the Torah records the history of the Israelites' 40 years of wandering in the desert. When it opens we do not yet know that the people will be punished to wander for 40 years, but by the time the book closes it is clear that the Jewish people have failed their first major test. When the spies return with a frightening report about the Promised Land and the ability to conquer it (Numbers 13-14), the Israelites demonstrate a total lack of resolve, fortitude and faith. They wail, they tremble, they plead not to go on with the mission. They are not prepared to take the risk of war even for the conquest of the Promised Land. Certainly, the Bible would have wanted the Hebrews to have acted with courage, to have made the first heroic and even dangerous moves which come with independence and responsibility. Nachshon at the shore of the Reed Sea shines as the antithesis of a cowardly "desert generation." Because of his fearless daring, the people were saved. Indeed, the Gaon of Vilna points out that the Torah first describes the Israelites as having gone "into the midst of the sea on the dry land" (Exodus 14:22), and later "on dry land in the midst of the sea" (Exodus 14:29). The initial description refers to Nachshon and his followers who risked their lives by jumping into the raging waters. G-d made a miracle for them, the waters splitting into dry land and serving as a wall, homa, on the right and the left. The latter description refers to the rest of the Israelites who only entered after the dry land appeared; for them, the waters also became a wall, but this time written with out the letter vuv, which forms the alternate reading of hema, or "anger". Nachshon's remarkable ability to take risks was transmitted to his son Elimelech and grand-son Boaz. Hence, the Scroll of Ruth closes with the names of ten generations from Peretz (son of Judah) to King David, and Nachshon appears right in the center, the pivotal figure between the age of the patriarchs and the generation of monarchy-messiah. But while Nachshon and Boaz are to be praised for their risk-taking, Elimelech can only be reviled for his. When a terrible famine descends upon Bethlehem, the home of Elimelech, he packs up his family and decides to start a new life in the land of Moab. Undoubtedly, this demonstrates courage on the part of Elimelech, the ability to risk the unknown in a strange environment. But his motivation was greed. He refused to share his bounty with his starving kinsmen, and he was willing to leave his homeland and his ancestral roots for the sake of his wealth. Hence, tragedy strikes. Elimelech dies, and his sons, inevitably, marry Moabite women. His progeny die as well, causing Elimelech to have reaped as his harvest only oblivion - from a Jewish point of view. In contrast, Boaz does not leave Bethlehem during the famine. And when the challenge arises to do an act of loving-kindness for Naomi and redeem Elimelech's land, as well as to marry the stranger - Ruth, a convert - Boaz assumes the financial obligation and the social risk involved in the marriage. The descendant from this union turns out to be none other than King David, from whom the messianic line emerges. Elimelech's risk was based upon greed and forsaking his tradition; it ends in his death and destruction. Boaz's risk was based upon loving-kindness and results in redemption. The Elimelech-Boaz dialectic is a perennial theme in the Jewish world. Risk is positive, and even mandatory, from a Jewish perspective. The question we have to ask ourselves is the motivation - and that determines the result. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/516b36f3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 05:43:40 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 06:43:40 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Behukotai: Blessings in the Land Message-ID: Behukotai: Blessings in the Land 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 01:29 by Levi Chazen (IsraelNN.com) "If you go in My statutes and observe My commandments and perform them, then I will provide you rains in their time and the Land will give its produce, and the tree of the field will give its fruit." The question is: Is this the reward for doing G-d's commandments, or is this just the consequence of following the path of the Torah; i.e., Mother Nature kicking in and the way the order of the world is supposed to work when the Jewish people follow the way of the Torah? It's interesting that we do not find anywhere in the Torah references to the Next World, as opposed to other religions, where much is written about the bliss of the Next World for the faithful (e.g., 70 virgins, etc.); a point which, by the way, cannot be proven, as no one has returned to tell us about it. The Torah, on the other hand, only hints of the Time to Come by telling us that so-and-so died and he was gathered to his people; meaning, he was taken up to the Next World. In the Torah, it is all about this world, doing HaShem's commandments. Sure, there is also the other side which concerns us, our portion in the Next World, but the emphasis has always been, and must be, on this world. As our rabbis teach us, "Today to do the commandments, and tomorrow to receive the reward." This Earthly blessing, then, is ours only when we go in the path of the Torah. We find in the blessing which Isaac gave to Esau: "Behold, of the fatness of the Earth shall be your dwelling, and of the dew of the heavens from above. By your sword you shall live, but your brother you shall serve. Yet it shall be that when you are aggrieved, you may cast off his yoke from your neck." For Jacob, the blessings of this world are on condition that we follow the right path; when we don't, the brotherly yoke of Esau is thrown off. But for Esau and his descendants, their blessings are non-conditional. Where, then, does this Heavenly blessing take place when the Jewish people do G-d's will? Only in the Land of Israel, of course. It is for this reason that the Torah describes to us the detailed account of the blessings of rains, bountiful crops and peace, all of which take place in the Land of Israel. For the Jew, no matter how good he is, when he lives in the exile, the blessings cannot come. For the very nature of exile can be nothing but a curse for the Jewish people. For that reason, it is listed along with the curses in our parsha. The Chatam Sofer adds that it is only in the Land of Israel that every act that we do becomes a mitzvah. As he writes: "Just like one who is learning Torah would not say 'I'm learning so I won't have to put on tefillin,' so, too, with working the Land of Israel, one should not say 'I'm learning now,' but rather close your book and go out to work the Land, for working the Land in Israel is itself a mitzvah." For this reason, the Torah tells us that the Earthly blessings that come down in this world are funneled though the Land of Israel. Our parsha talks only about the material blessings flowing to the Land when we follow HaShem's commandments. But when we reject the Torah's path, and talk turns to giving away parts of the country from north to south to the center, what blessings can come out of this? Rather, only curses. For no matter how hard they try to bring peace, a curse, like the exile, can never be a blessing. The road map is before us. Let us wisely choose the right path. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/c97c0b9d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:19:45 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:19:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] About those "delusions.." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: WEDNESDAY'S SONG!!!!! This message is incredible! Can anyone doubt HaSHem orchestrates every detail concerning His people and His Land? Am Yisrael Chai!!!! (People of Israel, Live!!!!) Let's sing Psalm 94! Thank you, Hanoch! Avigail From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:56 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] About those "delusions.." The Delusions of the Left 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 07:13by ???? ????? "Fundamentally Freund" - Michael Freund (IsraelNN.com) This past Monday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told a Knesset Committee that anyone who believes in the idea of "Greater Israel" is a "delusional fantasist". But in reality, as I argue in the column below, the true "delusional fantasists" are those who persist in clinging to the false hope of forging an even falser peace after 15 years of ongoing Palestinian violence, terror and obstructionism. Believing in the right of the Jewish people to the entire Land of Israel is neither delusional nor fantasy. It has been the basis of our faith, and the core of our national dream, for the past 2,000 years, and over the past six decades we have seen it begin to come to pass. And soon enough, the promise of "Greater Israel" will yet come true. The real "delusional fantasists" By Michael Freund Ladies and gentlemen, we have a slight problem on our hands. This coming Sunday night marks the start of Yom Yerushalayim, the annual celebration of Jerusalem's liberation during the heroic 1967 Six-Day War. Normally speaking, it is a day filled with cheer. Special prayers are recited in synagogues around the world, marches, ceremonies and commemorations are held, and crowds of visitors flock to the Old City to stroll through its narrow streets, caress the gentle stones of the Western Wall, and savor the holiness in the air. But here's the glitch: just how exactly are we supposed to rejoice over Jerusalem's reunification this year when the Israeli government is now actively seeking to divide it? It almost seems like throwing a large wedding anniversary party in the middle of divorce proceedings. Sure, the negotiations with the Palestinians may or may not be getting anywhere, depending on the latest spin being circulated in the media. And the current governing coalition, along with its policy of concessions, might in any event be gone before we know it. But all that is beside the point. The very fact that Jerusalem is on the table just 41 years after its miraculous emancipation from the shackles of foreign control cannot help but cast a menacing shadow over the festivities. And yet, oddly enough, despite the uncertainty hanging over the fate of our capital, I intend to whoop it up and revel fully in the spirit of the day. And you should too. Here's why: the jig is up for the Left and its supporters. TRY AS they might to let the air out of the balloons, those in favor of tearing apart Jerusalem cannot, and will not, succeed. They and their ideological fellow-travelers are running out of steam, and they long ago ran out of political vision and courage, so it is only a matter of time before their outmoded policies become a thing of the past. Point of fact: for the past 15 years, ever since the signing of the Oslo Accords, various Israeli leaders have been coaxing and cajoling, pleading and pressing, and even begging and beseeching the Palestinians to make peace with us. And all they have to show for it is a string of failures and half-a-dozen worthless agreements, topped off by a steady stream of Kassam rockets now raining down on Sderot and the Negev. And yet, that doesn't seem to stop the proponents of retreat from hurling invective at those of us who refuse to buy into their forlorn worldview. "Delusional fantasists." That is how Prime Minister Ehud Olmert referred to those who believe in the vision of Greater Israel when he appeared before the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday. "Only fantasists," he said, "can believe that in this day and age, and in the current situation, it is still possible to cling to the vision of 'Greater Israel.' " But who is really being delusional here? Is it Israel's Right, which has warned from the start about the dangers of appeasing Palestinian terror, or those who persist in clinging to a false hope of forging an even falser peace? With all due respect to Mr. Olmert, repeatedly banging one's head against the wall of Palestinian obstructionism in the hopes of making peace, even as more and more blood pours forth with each blow, hardly seems to qualify as rational behavior or intelligent policy-making. If anyone is delusional, it is those who still think that dividing the land of Israel will appease the Palestinian appetite, and quench their thirst for dismantling the Jewish state once and for all. Believing in the right of the Jewish people to the entire Land of Israel is neither delusional nor fantasy. It has been the basis of our faith, and the core of our national dream, for the past 2,000 years. It was a Divine promise to our ancestors, and it has propelled our people over the past century to climb out of exile and to continue to strive. And over the past six decades we have seen it begin to come to pass. Herzl too was mocked in similar terms when he boldly predicted the establishment of a Jewish state. Back in 1897, the great Zionist thinker Ahad Ha'am wrote this about Herzl's vision: "only a fantasy bordering on madness can believe that so soon as the Jewish State is established millions of Jews will flock to it, and the land will afford them adequate sustenance." GUESS WHAT? It happened. Just look around at what Israel has accomplished in the past 60 years. So in the spirit of the day, I'm going to keep right on celebrating the return of Jerusalem to Jewish control, confident in the knowledge that those who raise a hand against her will not succeed. And I take solace from a passage in the Talmud in Tractate Taanit (29a), which is well worth pondering as we mark Yom Yerushalayim. The Talmud there contains a description of how the two Temples in Jerusalem were destroyed, centuries apart, by the Babylonians and then by the Romans. In both cases, when the attackers entered the Temple grounds, it occurred on a Sunday. Nevertheless, says the Talmud, the Levites on duty were singing the Song of the Day normally recited on Wednesdays. Rabbi Nachman Kahane points out that Wednesday's song, which is Chapter 94 of the Book of Psalms, begins with the words, "O G-d of vengeance, L-rd, O G-d of vengeance, appear!" The Levites, he explains, seeing that the Temple was about to fall into enemy hands, issued a last-minute plea to G-d to avenge its capture, hence they chose Wednesday's song. But why specifically Wednesday? Jump ahead nearly 2,000 years to the Six Day War, when Israeli soldiers ascended the Temple Mount and restored it to Jewish control. The day that took place was June 7, 1967 which was, of course, a? Wednesday. And so the historical circle was closed. Go ahead, dismiss it all as a coincidence, if you wish. But don't go calling it "fantasy." The promise of Greater Israel will yet come true. Just you wait and see. --- from the May 28 Jerusalem Post www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/8b86b342/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 09:35:34 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:35:34 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Truer words were never spoken: "SHOULD ISRAEL PERISH, THE HOLOCAUST WILL BE UPON US ALL." As we support Israel, we support the world.......................REGATHER NOW, HOUSE OF ISRAEL!!!!! ~ Avigail From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? Boker tov L'Kulchem, Below is something I received from another email list, that really meant a lot to me. It was written by Eric Hoffer, whose book, The True Believer meant so much to me (although I only read it in my "post-revolutionary" phase). VERY worth reading! Hanoch *WRITTEN IN 1968 - Astonishing* Do you remember Eric Hoffer? He was a longshoreman who turned into a philosopher, wrote columns for newspapers and some books. He was a non-Jewish American social philosopher. He was born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, published in 1951, was widely recognized as a classic. Here is one of his columns *from 1968*. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? This article was written 40 years ago!!! Some things never change. *ISRAEL**'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68)* * * The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But, when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway. The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment, Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer, [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war, to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/34dab992/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 09:46:23 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:46:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Aprons/coats References: <516d73340805252306x3b6cdbb3v74f8ca10eb54cd85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030301c8c3f6$44331a30$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Hi Brian, Have ever-so-busy this last wk with out-of-town company and only now have time to respond to your query. I don't remember exactly when and where I came to understand that the world was already inhabited (not with men as we know ourselves to be with a soul) before Adam and Eve, who were given a soul/ were created by EL. I believe that these people were the fallen angels that were cast down from heaven. It was these creatures/people that had relations with the daughters of men, El men....El-made-men having souls. . Does that make any sense to you? Are we now on the same wave-length? It was at least 20 yrs ago that I learned this and my slow computer (my brain) is slowly kicking in as to where and when this new info occurred. I think I still have literature in my file re: it. Will try to unearth it and give you more details in the future. OK? Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 1:06 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Aprons/coats G'day Loy, No challenge issued so your not missing anything, but I will need to ask for clarification. My response to you was on the understanding that the creation of man referred to in Gen1:26&27 is the same event as referred to in Gen2:7,18, and 22. Also, "there were humans already in existence when this was done..", where were the humans, and when what was done? I guess I am struggling to get to grips with your comment because I am not on your wavelength. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/3048879b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 09:49:17 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:49:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA920DCD67C7BC-D50-139D@WEBMAIL-DB13.sysops.aol.com> Dear Avigail (what a beautiful name, BTW), ??? As the saying goes, "Israel is the 'canary in the mine shaft' for the free world.? As Israel goes, so will they..."? ??? And you are SO RIGHT about regathering, NOW, not waiting for 'later' - whenever that might be....We ALL need to reach out and seek those Ephramites who are near us....and I'm sure they're there!? I'm really glad that?James has republished his book - the timing is perfect! ??? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:35 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? Truer words were never spoken:? "SHOULD ISRAEL PERISH, THE HOLOCAUST WILL BE UPON US ALL." ? As we support Israel, we support the world.......................REGATHER NOW, HOUSE OF ISRAEL!!!!!?? ~ Avigail From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 6:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? Boker tov L'Kulchem, ? ????Below is something I received from another email list, that really meant a lot to me.? It was written by Eric Hoffer, whose book, The True Believer meant so much to me (although I only read it in my "post-revolutionary" phase).? VERY worth reading! ? ????????Hanoch ? *WRITTEN IN 1968 - Astonishing* Do you remember Eric Hoffer? He was a longshoreman who turned into a philosopher, wrote columns for newspapers and some books. He was a non-Jewish American social philosopher. He was born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, published in 1951, was widely recognized as a classic. Here is one of his columns *from 1968*. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? This article was written 40 years ago!!! Some things never change. *ISRAEL**'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68)* * * The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But, when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway. The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment, Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer, [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war, to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us all. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/67ea0fac/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 1 12:35:54 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 03:35:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Aprons/Coats Message-ID: <516d73340806011035x54a2b423o598b8ae7b9a5f331@mail.gmail.com> G'day Loy, I am on your wavelength. I had been of the understanding that the sons of god and daughters of men scenario was chronologically after the creation of Adam and Eve. It is feasible to be as you suggest. I look forward to receiving what material you have. Being inclined personally to look at the early chapters of Genesis as being more mythic/legendary than literal I can easily accomodate what you are saying. For most of my life I have accepted the view that the period of time covered since the creation of Adam is about 6000 years. I saw the logic of a millenial Sabbath as a precursor to the restoration of Eden. In recent years I have had my DNA tested for my research into my origins so I have been getting used to dealing with much longer periods of timefor the occupation of the planet by created beings. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/a6184c0b/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sun Jun 1 14:02:57 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:02:57 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE OTHER MATTHEW.] In-Reply-To: <484240FA.6070202@westnet.com.au> References: <484240FA.6070202@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4842F261.7010808@gninc.ca> Shalom Joe It seems to me you know by experience what it is to be busy. I just wanted to let you know that I have a copy of a Hebrew Gospel of Mathew by George Howard. It has the Hebrew on one side and English on the other side. And mention is made quite a bit about Shem-Tob's Even Bohan, but so far as I know, and I have not studied much in it because I could not see much difference in it from the King James at the time I got it about 5 years ago. In Mattew 1 the virgin birth is very much alike with the KJ. So I imagine this can not be a copy of that original one. But there are a lot of foot notes in it. Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shalom Clyde, > my apologies if I have confused you. I guess you > have to look at the timing of my posts. I started with a general post > to all. Brian then responded . I then addressed his post and then > reverted back to the general post , followed by another general post. > In the midst of all of this my post regarding Javan which was sent pre > Shabbat popped up. It had been delayed by the administrator due to the > size. > > I have put in some time now as I am going to have a hectic week at > work. I also apologize at the size of some of the posts. It has been > hard for me to keep up let alone the readers. > > Dear HaShem give me the strength to keep up. > > Sorry for any inconvenience. > > Shalom v' Ahavat > JOE. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Fwd: [Dialogue] THE OTHER MATTHEW. > From: > CBrown4465 at aol.com > Date: > Sat, 31 May 2008 21:33:44 EDT > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Hey Joe: > > I'm trying to figure out to whom you are referring? Is it Brian, since > you two have a little debate going? > > CB > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > [Dialogue] THE OTHER MATTHEW. > From: > JOE INDOMENICO > Date: > Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:13:09 +1000 > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Shalom Chaverim, > > as promised in my last post, this is the flip side. > >> Shalom xxxxxxxxx >> after our pleasant conversation the >> other day , I would appreciate very much if you read this Talmud >> verse in >> >> 116 - b from verse 1 - 10 >> .http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_116.html >> >> Rabbi Gamliel is actually stating that the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu >> had been wrongly superseded by another ruling in so far that a >> daughter and son inherit equally whereas the Torah states that a >> daughter only inherits where there is no son . >> Now it is intriguing that Rabbi Gamliel uses a quote from another >> book to back up his argument where it says >>> 'Look^6 >>> at >>> the end of the book, wherein it is written, I came not to destroy >>> the Law of Moses nor^7 >>> to >>> add to the Law of Moses,^8 >>> >>> and it is written therein, A daughter does not inherit where there >>> is a son. >> Question............ which book ? >> Question............ who said it.? >> >> Now if you look at the references at the bottom it says Cf : Matthew >> 5 v17. >> Now I have a problem with this in so far that the bit about >> inheritance does not exist in the Xtian Matthew. The section about >> the law however does exist. Another problem that I have is that this >> quote does not appear at the end of the Xtian Gospel but towards the >> start. So there must be another document. Where ? >> >> In a 14th century polemical treatise " Even Bochan ", Shem Tov ben >> Isaac ben Shaprut Ibn Shaprut, a Castilian physician recorded a >> complete Hebrew text of Matthew. He had at his disposal the original >> text which had been preserved through out the centuries without the >> tampering of the church. >> During our pleasant conversation you maintained that there was _*no >> Jewish rabbinical doument that spoke about Yeshua : PERIOD*_ _*.*_ I >> just found one. Not only that, but where Rabbi Gamliel uses Yeshua's >> quote to justify his Halachah. >> >> Also you maintained that the prophet was subject to the Sanhedrin or >> the Beit Din. Now what does the Torah say. >> >>> *??* ?????? ???????????? ????????? ????????, ?????? ???? ?????? >>> ?????????: ??????, ????????????. *15* A prophet will the LORD thy >>> God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, >>> like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; >>> *??* ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????????, ????????; ?????????? >>> ???????, ???????, ???????? ????????, ??? ????-?????? ???????????. >>> *18* I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like >>> unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak >>> unto them all that I shall command him. >>> *??* ???????, ??????? ?????? ???-???????? ???-????????, ?????? >>> ????????, ?????????--???????, ???????? ????????. *19* And it shall >>> come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he >>> shall speak in My name, I will require it of him. >>> >> The prophet had the authority because he was the Sh'liach of HaShem. >> I used the example the other night of Yirmiyahu. >> I have many questions to ask as the truth starts to unravel in my >> spiritual life. I would appreciate your support and respect in return. >> As I mentioned there is a phenomenon sweeping the world as people >> from all backgrounds are leaving their former religions and coming in >> teshuva to the Torah of HaShem as prophesied by the Neviim. The lost >> tribes are coming home Baruch HaShem. Nothing can stop this . >> Nothing. These decent folk are repenting and weeping as they go. >> Because we are guided by the Ahavah of HaShem. I will end this letter >> by quoting from Yirmiyahu Chap 16 v 19-21. >> >>> *??* ?????? ?????? ??????????, ??????????--??????? ?????; ???????, >>> ??????? ??????? ?????????-?????, ?????????? ????-?????? ??????? >>> ???????????, ????? ??????-???? ???????. *19* O LORD, my strength, >>> and my stronghold, and my refuge, in the day of affliction, unto >>> Thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall >>> say: 'Our fathers have inherited nought but lies, vanity and things >>> wherein there is no profit.' >>> *?* ??????????-???? ?????, ????????; ????????, ??? ????????. *20* >>> Shall a man make unto himself gods, and they are no gods? >>> *??* ?????, ??????? ?????????, ????????? ???????, ????????? >>> ???-????? ?????-???????????; ?????????, ????-?????? ??????. {?} >>> *21* Therefore, behold, I will cause them to know, this once will I >>> cause them to know My hand and My might; and they shall know that My >>> name is the LORD. *{S}* >>> >>> There is much room for civil discussion. We are not Xtians , we do >>> not worship the idol g-d man , We have no conversion agendas. We >>> seek THE HOLY ONE OF YISRAEL. No more no less. >>> >> >> >> Kindest Regards >> JOE. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1475 - Release Date: 30/05/2008 2:53 PM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/829bf258/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jun 1 17:29:25 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:29:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hanoch, this was so thought provoking.indeed there is 'nothing new under the sun!' It seems that Israel has always been held to a higher standard across the board. No other nation on earth would have put up with what Israel has put up with.attacks in the form of suicide bombers, scud missels, and now kassam rockets.while the world sits by and does nothing except encourage them to 'talk' rather than retaliate.and even worse, give up more land including the Golan, so that the rocketeers might have an even better vantage point! To me, it totally makes no sense. The last words of the author are quite chilling. "I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us all". Shalom and Blessings to you and all who love Israel, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:07 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A Prescient Prophet or Political Prognosticator? Boker tov L'Kulchem, Below is something I received from another email list, that really meant a lot to me. It was written by Eric Hoffer, whose book, The True Believer meant so much to me (although I only read it in my "post-revolutionary" phase). VERY worth reading! Hanoch *WRITTEN IN 1968 - Astonishing* Do you remember Eric Hoffer? He was a longshoreman who turned into a philosopher, wrote columns for newspapers and some books. He was a non-Jewish American social philosopher. He was born in 1902 and died in 1983, after writing nine books and winning the Presidential Medal of Freedom. His first book, The True Believer, published in 1951, was widely recognized as a classic. Here is one of his columns *from 1968*. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? This article was written 40 years ago!!! Some things never change. *ISRAEL**'S PECULIAR POSITION by Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68)* * * The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia. But, when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway. The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment, Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer, [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war, to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us all. _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/fc654939/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 1 17:55:23 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 18:55:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. In-Reply-To: <48412AC9.9060608@westnet.com.au> References: <48412AC9.9060608@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CA9251B552E3D7-D0-1ACE@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Shalom Joe, ????? This is the type of phenomenon that I am convinced is occurring across the globe.? Seemingly isolated pockets of individuals, who are turning to the Tanach, and especially to the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov.? And Joe, here it is that you find this list via Ross' broadcasts, and recently were introduced to Ally & Moshe.? And now, though them, meeting over 20 more people, who don't live all that far away from you - AMAZING.... ???? HaShem is beginning to call all of us home..... ??????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat, 31 May 2008 6:39 am Subject: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. Shavuah Tov,? ? The dialogue list has a new addition. Thanks to the dialogue I managed to contact Ally and Moshe Kale and was surprised to find out that they live about a 40 minute drive away. They informed me that they meet every Shabbat up in the hinterland region behind the Gold Coast. There is a small group of between 20 to 24 that read the Torah and Haftarah followed by fellowship. So we decided to have a rendezvous at this gathering of genuine believers. What we encountered was unbelievable and amazing.? ? My friend Leo ,also a fellow Sicilian, and I left this morning and headed up to the lush sub tropical rain forest region of the picturesque Mount Tamborine. As we headed up the mountain it was raining and quite misty. When we arrived we met Ally and Moshe and were greeted by our hosts the Kivits family. This is a remarkable family. They decided to leave the hustle and bustle of modernity and return to the land by living a Torah lifestyle. Joseph and his wife of 40 years Lydia together with their sons Sam, Josh and daughters Yahdah and Elisheva have spent the last 4 years transforming their 5 acre property into Gan Edan. They live together and work the land and live a fully sustainable lifestyle on this organic farm. It is truely something else.They rear their own sheep , grow all their vegetables and fruit. The water supply is a subterranean bore. Very idyllic and pristine.? ? When we arrived there was a little commotion. One of their old ewes who was8 years old and pregnant was seen the previous day wandering around with it's placenta hanging out. The old ewe had given birth to a lamb but there was no lamb. It was lost. Yahdah was out searching for it as she and her family had done the day before. They feared the worst. After about 15 minutes Yahdah walked in with the lamb to all our surprise. After the old ewe had given birth the lamb had somehow fallen through a gap in the floor boards in the animal house. We had a very cold night and how this little lamb survived is a miracle in itself. We think that when the lamb fell it landed in all the sheep manure. At the end of the day all the sheep return to the animal house to sleep and because of the cold they huddle together. This was directly over the lamb. So the heat of the manure and the insulation of the adult sheep over was instrumental in the survival of this little lost one.? ? To the delight of all those present, Yahdah walked in with the lost lamb. Talk about a prophetic moment. We all rejoiced at the lost sheep that was found. We very quickly nick named the old ewe "Sarah" and the male lamb " Yitzchak " There was a feeling of relief and elation. I have included a photo of Yahdah and Yitzchak. Truely amazing !!!!!? ? There was an international smorgasboard present today. The Kivits are Dutch. There were Yanks, Kiwis, Aussies, Brits , Germans and of course at the rear of the pack the Sicilians.? ? Will return to normal posting soon I hope.? ? Shavuah Tov.? JOE.? ps : HaShem made all this possible through this wonderful group at the Synagogue without walls. Baruch HaShem.? ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ [Image Removed] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/6dbbd620/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jun 1 18:07:08 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:07:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. In-Reply-To: <8CA9251B552E3D7-D0-1ACE@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, Joe, when I read this post, I thought it was the sweetest, most special story, not only because you have now personally been connected with others who love the G-d of Israel and it is indeed representative of what must surely be happening all over the globe, but also because of the little lamb involved. How significant and symbolic.and a 'black sheep' as that! I am happy for and your new fellowship and for the little lamb that was rescued! This one is one for the textbooks!!! I am working my way thru your other posts, and hope to respond soon. I really do appreciate all of the time and study you put into what you write. Shalom and blessings for the new week, May you be invigorated and refreshed to do all that you need to do. Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:55 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. Shalom Joe, This is the type of phenomenon that I am convinced is occurring across the globe. Seemingly isolated pockets of individuals, who are turning to the Tanach, and especially to the G-d of Avraham, Yitzhak and Yaakov. And Joe, here it is that you find this list via Ross' broadcasts, and recently were introduced to Ally & Moshe. And now, though them, meeting over 20 more people, who don't live all that far away from you - AMAZING.... HaShem is beginning to call all of us home..... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sat, 31 May 2008 6:39 am Subject: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. Shavuah Tov, The dialogue list has a new addition. Thanks to the dialogue I managed to contact Ally and Moshe Kale and was surprised to find out that they live about a 40 minute drive away. They informed me that they meet every Shabbat up in the hinterland region behind the Gold Coast. There is a small group of between 20 to 24 that read the Torah and Haftarah followed by fellowship. So we decided to have a rendezvous at this gathering of genuine believers. What we encountered was unbelievable and amazing. My friend Leo ,also a fellow Sicilian, and I left this morning and headed up to the lush sub tropical rain forest region of the picturesque Mount Tamborine. As we headed up the mountain it was raining and quite misty. When we arrived we met Ally and Moshe and were greeted by our hosts the Kivits family. This is a remarkable family. They decided to leave the hustle and bustle of modernity and return to the land by living a Torah lifestyle. Joseph and his wife of 40 years Lydia together with their sons Sam, Josh and daughters Yahdah and Elisheva have spent the last 4 years transforming their 5 acre property into Gan Edan. They live together and work the land and live a fully sustainable lifestyle on this organic farm. It is truely something else.They rear their own sheep , grow all their vegetables and fruit. The water supply is a subterranean bore. Very idyllic and pristine. When we arrived there was a little commotion. One of their old ewes who was8 years old and pregnant was seen the previous day wandering around with it's placenta hanging out. The old ewe had given birth to a lamb but there was no lamb. It was lost. Yahdah was out searching for it as she and her family had done the day before. They feared the worst. After about 15 minutes Yahdah walked in with the lamb to all our surprise. After the old ewe had given birth the lamb had somehow fallen through a gap in the floor boards in the animal house. We had a very cold night and how this little lamb survived is a miracle in itself. We think that when the lamb fell it landed in all the sheep manure. At the end of the day all the sheep return to the animal house to sleep and because of the cold they huddle together. This was directly over the lamb. So the heat of the manure and the insulation of the adult sheep over was instrumental in the survival of this little lost one. To the delight of all those present, Yahdah walked in with the lost lamb. Talk about a prophetic moment. We all rejoiced at the lost sheep that was found. We very quickly nick named the old ewe "Sarah" and the male lamb " Yitzchak " There was a feeling of relief and elation. I have included a photo of Yahdah and Yitzchak. Truely amazing !!!!! There was an international smorgasboard present today. The Kivits are Dutch. There were Yanks, Kiwis, Aussies, Brits , Germans and of course at the rear of the pack the Sicilians. Will return to normal posting soon I hope. Shavuah Tov. JOE. ps : HaShem made all this possible through this wonderful group at the Synagogue without walls. Baruch HaShem. _______________________________________________ [Image Removed] _____ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/d5cab707/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jun 1 18:41:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:41:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7487F67B0BD4409EA6BFF6933A1820C9@bettygivin> Shalom Hanoch, and thank you for providing us with all of wonderful teachings filled with pearls of wisdom from our forefathers which we can definitely learn from and use to make positive decisions in our lives today. Before reading this article, I had been aware of the story of Nachshan and his act of courage which bred courage in the Hebrew people to follow in his lead in crossing the Sea of Reeds. But I had never looked at the aspects of risk taking of Elimeleck and Boaz and compared their motives in their courageous acts. It seems that kavana (intent) played a huge part in their lives as it does in our lives today. It is interesting to note, as we come closer to Shavuot, the aspect of courage and abandonment that Ruth took in leaving her kinsman and going with her mother-in-law, Naomi. Have you ever stopped to think, that if she had not taken that risk and done what she knew she must even though difficult, that she most likely would have not met Boaz, and then he would have not have had the opportunity to reach out and help her and then take the social risk of marrying her? Did she know at the time that by leaving Moab and her family and going with Naomi that she would have a tremendous impact of history, that she would be the grandmother of King David, by far the most beloved king Israel ever had? Most likely not; to her, it was one simple act of courage and kindness. She no doubt had first had the kavanah (intent), then followed thru with the act. My point is that we never know what effect an act of Torah courage on our part may have on another person. Often courage (and encouragement) sparks more of the same. As we have seen in the microcosm of our own little group, our lives are so interrelated.we are all connected, and are thus obligated, in some degree, to one another.each may interpret that statement to the degree that it fits. I think it is a good thing. My two cents. Shalom and blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:41 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Shalom v'Boker tov, This is an interesting article from this week's Parsha (Torah Portion) which ties in Shavuot, which is slightly more then one week away.... Hanoch Bamidbar: Torah Courage 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 01:26 by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin (IsraelNN.com) "And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuven, Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Shimon, Shelimuiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah, Nachshon the son of Aminadav.... " (Numbers 1:5-7) For as long as I can remember, Orthodox Judaism has been perceived by much of the world - even the Orthodox world - as a conservative, sheltered, old-fashioned way of life, unwilling to take risks in the face of new challenges, preferring to retreat into its own shell like a turtle. A Midrashic comment on this week's portion of Bamidbar makes the point that a conservative, risk-free existence is not a genuine Torah value. Certainly standing by on the sidelines is hardly a characteristic to be found in the person of Nachshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who jumped into the Reed Sea in advance of the Egyptians. It was only after his demonstration of faith that the Almighty went the next step and split the Reed Sea. The Midrash (also recorded in Bava Batra 91a) points out that this courageous Nachshon had four sons, including Elimelech, husband of Naomi, and Shalmon, father of Boaz; hence, Nachshon was father and grandfather of two major personalities in the Scroll of Ruth, which we will be reading shortly on Shavuot. In presenting such a genealogy, the Midrash stresses not only the characteristics of risk-taking by the descendants of Nachshon, but also what kind of risks are favored by the Torah and what kind are not. The fact is that courage and risk-taking, or the lack of it, may be seen as an underlying theme of the whole book of Bamidbar. The fourth book of the Torah records the history of the Israelites' 40 years of wandering in the desert. When it opens we do not yet know that the people will be punished to wander for 40 years, but by the time the book closes it is clear that the Jewish people have failed their first major test. When the spies return with a frightening report about the Promised Land and the ability to conquer it (Numbers 13-14), the Israelites demonstrate a total lack of resolve, fortitude and faith. They wail, they tremble, they plead not to go on with the mission. They are not prepared to take the risk of war even for the conquest of the Promised Land. Certainly, the Bible would have wanted the Hebrews to have acted with courage, to have made the first heroic and even dangerous moves which come with independence and responsibility. Nachshon at the shore of the Reed Sea shines as the antithesis of a cowardly "desert generation." Because of his fearless daring, the people were saved. Indeed, the Gaon of Vilna points out that the Torah first describes the Israelites as having gone "into the midst of the sea on the dry land" (Exodus 14:22), and later "on dry land in the midst of the sea" (Exodus 14:29). The initial description refers to Nachshon and his followers who risked their lives by jumping into the raging waters. G-d made a miracle for them, the waters splitting into dry land and serving as a wall, homa, on the right and the left. The latter description refers to the rest of the Israelites who only entered after the dry land appeared; for them, the waters also became a wall, but this time written with out the letter vuv, which forms the alternate reading of hema, or "anger". Nachshon's remarkable ability to take risks was transmitted to his son Elimelech and grand-son Boaz. Hence, the Scroll of Ruth closes with the names of ten generations from Peretz (son of Judah) to King David, and Nachshon appears right in the center, the pivotal figure between the age of the patriarchs and the generation of monarchy-messiah. But while Nachshon and Boaz are to be praised for their risk-taking, Elimelech can only be reviled for his. When a terrible famine descends upon Bethlehem, the home of Elimelech, he packs up his family and decides to start a new life in the land of Moab. Undoubtedly, this demonstrates courage on the part of Elimelech, the ability to risk the unknown in a strange environment. But his motivation was greed. He refused to share his bounty with his starving kinsmen, and he was willing to leave his homeland and his ancestral roots for the sake of his wealth. Hence, tragedy strikes. Elimelech dies, and his sons, inevitably, marry Moabite women. His progeny die as well, causing Elimelech to have reaped as his harvest only oblivion - from a Jewish point of view. In contrast, Boaz does not leave Bethlehem during the famine. And when the challenge arises to do an act of loving-kindness for Naomi and redeem Elimelech's land, as well as to marry the stranger - Ruth, a convert - Boaz assumes the financial obligation and the social risk involved in the marriage. The descendant from this union turns out to be none other than King David, from whom the messianic line emerges. Elimelech's risk was based upon greed and forsaking his tradition; it ends in his death and destruction. Boaz's risk was based upon loving-kindness and results in redemption. The Elimelech-Boaz dialectic is a perennial theme in the Jewish world. Risk is positive, and even mandatory, from a Jewish perspective. The question we have to ask ourselves is the motivation - and that determines the result. www.IsraelNationalNews.com C Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/b4368d86/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 18:55:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:55:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage In-Reply-To: <7487F67B0BD4409EA6BFF6933A1820C9@bettygivin> References: <7487F67B0BD4409EA6BFF6933A1820C9@bettygivin> Message-ID: I LOVED your "two cents worth," Betty! ~Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Shalom Hanoch, and thank you for providing us with all of wonderful teachings filled with pearls of wisdom from our forefathers which we can definitely learn from and use to make positive decisions in our lives today. Before reading this article, I had been aware of the story of Nachshan and his act of courage which bred courage in the Hebrew people to follow in his lead in crossing the Sea of Reeds. But I had never looked at the aspects of risk taking of Elimeleck and Boaz and compared their motives in their courageous acts. It seems that kavana (intent) played a huge part in their lives as it does in our lives today. It is interesting to note, as we come closer to Shavuot, the aspect of courage and abandonment that Ruth took in leaving her kinsman and going with her mother-in-law, Naomi. Have you ever stopped to think, that if she had not taken that risk and done what she knew she must even though difficult, that she most likely would have not met Boaz, and then he would have not have had the opportunity to reach out and help her and then take the social risk of marrying her? Did she know at the time that by leaving Moab and her family and going with Naomi that she would have a tremendous impact of history, that she would be the grandmother of King David, by far the most beloved king Israel ever had? Most likely not; to her, it was one simple act of courage and kindness. She no doubt had first had the kavanah (intent), then followed thru with the act. My point is that we never know what effect an act of Torah courage on our part may have on another person. Often courage (and encouragement) sparks more of the same. As we have seen in the microcosm of our own little group, our lives are so interrelated.we are all connected, and are thus obligated, in some degree, to one another.each may interpret that statement to the degree that it fits. I think it is a good thing. My two cents. Shalom and blessings, Betty/Elisheva -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:41 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Shalom v'Boker tov, This is an interesting article from this week's Parsha (Torah Portion) which ties in Shavuot, which is slightly more then one week away.... Hanoch Bamidbar: Torah Courage 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 01:26 by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin (IsraelNN.com) "And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuven, Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Shimon, Shelimuiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah, Nachshon the son of Aminadav.... " (Numbers 1:5-7) For as long as I can remember, Orthodox Judaism has been perceived by much of the world - even the Orthodox world - as a conservative, sheltered, old-fashioned way of life, unwilling to take risks in the face of new challenges, preferring to retreat into its own shell like a turtle. A Midrashic comment on this week's portion of Bamidbar makes the point that a conservative, risk-free existence is not a genuine Torah value. Certainly standing by on the sidelines is hardly a characteristic to be found in the person of Nachshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who jumped into the Reed Sea in advance of the Egyptians. It was only after his demonstration of faith that the Almighty went the next step and split the Reed Sea. The Midrash (also recorded in Bava Batra 91a) points out that this courageous Nachshon had four sons, including Elimelech, husband of Naomi, and Shalmon, father of Boaz; hence, Nachshon was father and grandfather of two major personalities in the Scroll of Ruth, which we will be reading shortly on Shavuot. In presenting such a genealogy, the Midrash stresses not only the characteristics of risk-taking by the descendants of Nachshon, but also what kind of risks are favored by the Torah and what kind are not. The fact is that courage and risk-taking, or the lack of it, may be seen as an underlying theme of the whole book of Bamidbar. The fourth book of the Torah records the history of the Israelites' 40 years of wandering in the desert. When it opens we do not yet know that the people will be punished to wander for 40 years, but by the time the book closes it is clear that the Jewish people have failed their first major test. When the spies return with a frightening report about the Promised Land and the ability to conquer it (Numbers 13-14), the Israelites demonstrate a total lack of resolve, fortitude and faith. They wail, they tremble, they plead not to go on with the mission. They are not prepared to take the risk of war even for the conquest of the Promised Land. Certainly, the Bible would have wanted the Hebrews to have acted with courage, to have made the first heroic and even dangerous moves which come with independence and responsibility. Nachshon at the shore of the Reed Sea shines as the antithesis of a cowardly "desert generation." Because of his fearless daring, the people were saved. Indeed, the Gaon of Vilna points out that the Torah first describes the Israelites as having gone "into the midst of the sea on the dry land" (Exodus 14:22), and later "on dry land in the midst of the sea" (Exodus 14:29). The initial description refers to Nachshon and his followers who risked their lives by jumping into the raging waters. G-d made a miracle for them, the waters splitting into dry land and serving as a wall, homa, on the right and the left. The latter description refers to the rest of the Israelites who only entered after the dry land appeared; for them, the waters also became a wall, but this time written with out the letter vuv, which forms the alternate reading of hema, or "anger". Nachshon's remarkable ability to take risks was transmitted to his son Elimelech and grand-son Boaz. Hence, the Scroll of Ruth closes with the names of ten generations from Peretz (son of Judah) to King David, and Nachshon appears right in the center, the pivotal figure between the age of the patriarchs and the generation of monarchy-messiah. But while Nachshon and Boaz are to be praised for their risk-taking, Elimelech can only be reviled for his. When a terrible famine descends upon Bethlehem, the home of Elimelech, he packs up his family and decides to start a new life in the land of Moab. Undoubtedly, this demonstrates courage on the part of Elimelech, the ability to risk the unknown in a strange environment. But his motivation was greed. He refused to share his bounty with his starving kinsmen, and he was willing to leave his homeland and his ancestral roots for the sake of his wealth. Hence, tragedy strikes. Elimelech dies, and his sons, inevitably, marry Moabite women. His progeny die as well, causing Elimelech to have reaped as his harvest only oblivion - from a Jewish point of view. In contrast, Boaz does not leave Bethlehem during the famine. And when the challenge arises to do an act of loving-kindness for Naomi and redeem Elimelech's land, as well as to marry the stranger - Ruth, a convert - Boaz assumes the financial obligation and the social risk involved in the marriage. The descendant from this union turns out to be none other than King David, from whom the messianic line emerges. Elimelech's risk was based upon greed and forsaking his tradition; it ends in his death and destruction. Boaz's risk was based upon loving-kindness and results in redemption. The Elimelech-Boaz dialectic is a perennial theme in the Jewish world. Risk is positive, and even mandatory, from a Jewish perspective. The question we have to ask ourselves is the motivation - and that determines the result. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/702329da/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jun 1 19:50:16 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:50:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] From, "Bamidbar, bees and numbers" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, Hanoch, very interesting; thanks for sharing?and love the P.S. at the end, which I copied below. I subscribed to the commentary and look forward to reading what this Orthodox rabbi has to say. It is my understanding that there is a division within Judaism on this issue of Lost Tribes and whether they will return, but this is the first rabbi that I am aware of who has actually gone public with statements like these. I do hope you can connect with him this week, Hanoch, and let us know what happens?never know? PS. If you want to know more about "who is a Jew? and if there is a difference between Jew and Isarelites?, read the Haftarah, Hosea 2, especially the first 3 verses. Try to get to the deeper meaning of it. Some of you will say "Wow".... Shalom and shavua tov, Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] From, "Bamidbar, bees and numbers" Shalom L'Kulchem, This is a very interesting commentary on Parshat (Weekly Torah Portion) Bamidbar. This is also the same source that I sent a few weeks ago which acknowledged the Jewish people AND the Israelites! And he does it again at the bottom of this one, too! Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch To subscribe to this Deep Bible Commentary list: http://nehora.com/subscribe.cfm Previous Bible Commentaries Dear Hanoch, Bees and Numbers....What a crazy thought? Bamidbar, numerical value 248, (Literal translation is "in the wilderness") is named "Numbers" because it deals with the counting of the Israelites. >From the whole Torah aspect, this book(s) is the level of Zeir Anpin (=6 Sefirot of Chessed, Gevura, Tiferet, Netzach, Hod and Yesod). Many Kabbalists consider it as three books. (Read my commentary of Behalotcha). Zeir Anpin is also the Light force of the Creator in our world. You can refer to it as "the Space", which is everything inside and outside us. Last week we finished the reading of Leviticus, which is the level of Binah. The first three books are Keter Chokmah and Binah. They relate to the Head, the cause and the potential. With Bamidbar we are starting to form the body; manifestation and creation of the vessel. Zeir Anpin is represented with the letter Vav of the Holy name (the tetragramaton). Human, according to Kabbalah is defined as "????" (Hebrew for one who speaks). Bamidbar has the same letters as in medaber "????". The first two letters are abbreviations for "Ma'ase Bereshit", which means act of creation and are numerically equal to 42. The one who speaks has the power to bring new formations to "reality" (whatever we see as reality). Now here are some excerpts from the internet related to the vanishing phenomena of Bees. Please note that Bees in Hebrew ="??????" and is the same root as Bamidbar. A Cornell University study has estimated that honeybees annually pollinate more than $14 billion worth of seeds and crops in the United States, mostly fruits, vegetables and nuts. "Every third bite we consume in our diet is dependent on a honeybee to pollinate that food," said Zac Browning, vice president of the American Beekeeping Federation. "There is a syndrome called Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)," Koptur said. "It appears that the bees get disoriented and they go out foraging, collecting nectar from flowers, but on the way back they get lost and do not return to the nest. Without the food, larvae die and the colony collapses." The collapse and destruction of bee hives could have widespread negative effects on mankind. Bees are extremely vital to the economy. "Honey production is worth just $200 million a year, but bees pollinate $15 billion worth of fruit, vegetables and nuts, especially the $2 billion almond business," reported The Economist in April 2007. There has been evidence suggesting bees are dying due to pathogens raised in conditions caused by humans. Among the clues pointing to a possible disease according to the FDA is "the sting gland of many examined bees that were obviously scarred with distinct black "marks." This type of pin-point darkening is indicative of an immune response to some sort of pathogen." Even the queens are infected since "in addition to their sting glands, evidence of Melanosis was found in the ovaries of infected queens. These queens were superseded by colonies. Subsequent research has documented damage to hypo pharyngeal glands of worker bees." There is a cause and effect system and it is working no matter what. The Ether waves are full of people's conversation, speaking negatively. Last month, the father of chaos theory, Edward Lorenz, passed away. He was well known for his paper "Predictability: Does the Flap of a Butterfly's Wings in Brazil Set Off a Tornado in Texas?" Let me add something before that; "Does the vapor of a person speaking, makes a butterfly, flap his wings?" The question is "Are we responsible for the vanishing bees?", Are we responsible for the tsunamis?, Are we responsible for the cyclones? , Are we responsible for the earthquakes?, Are we responsible for the Tornadoes? (California?!), Are we responsible for airborne diseases? Stay positive, no matter what. When the weather and nature around us, gets "crazy", we need to be calm. Remember Mahatma Gandhi? With the power of speak, he pushed away the entire forces of the British Empire out of India. Spread positivity and love, maybe we can push away some negativity. I love you all, Shabbat Shalom, Zion Nefesh PS. If you want to know more about "who is a Jew? and if there is a difference between Jew and Isarelites?, read the Haftarah, Hosea 2, especially the first 3 verses. Try to get to the deeper meaning of it. Some of you will say "Wow".... Links: Jewish Books - http://Nehora.com Torah and Bible Commentaries- http://www.RabbiShimon.com Spiritual eBooks: http://wwwDivineCalendar.com You can also find the article on line. Http://www.RabbiShimon.com _____ Share the Light..... Forward this email to a friend. _____ Search for writings of the Ari (Rabbi Isaac Luria) Latest Hebrew books at Nehora.com Latest English books at Nehora.com The Genesis Prayer: (Many amazing Torah codes revealed in this book) _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/00dde8c6/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jun 1 20:48:43 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:48:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Aprons/Coats References: <516d73340806011035x54a2b423o598b8ae7b9a5f331@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <03e801c8c452$cadde040$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Hey, Brian, Tell me more about your DNA testing. I too am a part of a DNA Study.....no me personally but my mothers male cousin is our representative of our family line. We (almost 200 of the Hill family ) were broken down into groups. I was questioning HaShem as to why we only had 2 in our group when many other groups had 8, 15, 25 in their groups. Later another man was put into our group and I welcomed him by e-mail. A wk later he wrote to say that he had been put into our group. My finger was on the delete button when HaShem said sternly "NO. Be gracious". So I sent another e-mail welcoming him again and he was online and immediately replied that he was taking a further test (36 markers) to determine what "people group" he (which would mean we too) are from. Family tree told him even before the 3rd test that it looked like he was from the oldest "people group" in the world..... (German, Ashkenazi, Levite) "whatever that means," he wrote. I just shouted and shot back to him what that meant. Have never been able to get him to respond to another e-mail in the last 5 yrs even though I know he has received my many inquiries as to how the 3rd test turned out. I suppose it scared him to learn that he is Jewish. So how far along are you and what have you learned? Really really interested. This all came after yrs of searching. I had given up hope of proving that I am Jewish. Then God just brought it to me. Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian McFarlane To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:35 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Aprons/Coats G'day Loy, I am on your wavelength. I had been of the understanding that the sons of god and daughters of men scenario was chronologically after the creation of Adam and Eve. It is feasible to be as you suggest. I look forward to receiving what material you have. Being inclined personally to look at the early chapters of Genesis as being more mythic/legendary than literal I can easily accomodate what you are saying. For most of my life I have accepted the view that the period of time covered since the creation of Adam is about 6000 years. I saw the logic of a millenial Sabbath as a precursor to the restoration of Eden. In recent years I have had my DNA tested for my research into my origins so I have been getting used to dealing with much longer periods of timefor the occupation of the planet by created beings. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/2926d51e/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 1 21:40:59 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:40:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. In-Reply-To: <48412AC9.9060608@westnet.com.au> References: <48412AC9.9060608@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Hey Joe! We are so excited you got to meet Ally and Moshe! We saw some pictures when she was in town last month of the farm but your story puts a whole new twist on it! Thank you so much for sharing! Hope you all can stay in touch! Chris and Amber Fordham On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 6:39 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shavuah Tov, > > The dialogue list has a new addition. Thanks to the dialogue I managed to > contact Ally and Moshe Kale and was surprised to find out that they live > about a 40 minute drive away. They informed me that they meet every Shabbat > up in the hinterland region behind the Gold Coast. There is a small group of > between 20 to 24 that read the Torah and Haftarah followed by fellowship. So > we decided to have a rendezvous at this gathering of genuine believers. What > we encountered was unbelievable and amazing. > > My friend Leo ,also a fellow Sicilian, and I left this morning and headed > up to the lush sub tropical rain forest region of the picturesque Mount > Tamborine. As we headed up the mountain it was raining and quite misty. When > we arrived we met Ally and Moshe and were greeted by our hosts the Kivits > family. This is a remarkable family. They decided to leave the hustle and > bustle of modernity and return to the land by living a Torah lifestyle. > Joseph and his wife of 40 years Lydia together with their sons Sam, Josh and > daughters Yahdah and Elisheva have spent the last 4 years transforming their > 5 acre property into Gan Edan. They live together and work the land and live > a fully sustainable lifestyle on this organic farm. It is truely something > else.They rear their own sheep , grow all their vegetables and fruit. The > water supply is a subterranean bore. Very idyllic and pristine. > > When we arrived there was a little commotion. One of their old ewes who > was8 years old and pregnant was seen the previous day wandering around with > it's placenta hanging out. The old ewe had given birth to a lamb but there > was no lamb. It was lost. Yahdah was out searching for it as she and her > family had done the day before. They feared the worst. After about 15 > minutes Yahdah walked in with the lamb to all our surprise. After the old > ewe had given birth the lamb had somehow fallen through a gap in the floor > boards in the animal house. We had a very cold night and how this little > lamb survived is a miracle in itself. We think that when the lamb fell it > landed in all the sheep manure. At the end of the day all the sheep return > to the animal house to sleep and because of the cold they huddle together. > This was directly over the lamb. So the heat of the manure and the > insulation of the adult sheep over was instrumental in the survival of this > little lost one. > > To the delight of all those present, Yahdah walked in with the lost lamb. > Talk about a prophetic moment. We all rejoiced at the lost sheep that was > found. We very quickly nick named the old ewe "Sarah" and the male lamb " > Yitzchak " There was a feeling of relief and elation. I have included a > photo of Yahdah and Yitzchak. Truely amazing !!!!! > > There was an international smorgasboard present today. The Kivits are > Dutch. There were Yanks, Kiwis, Aussies, Brits , Germans and of course at > the rear of the pack the Sicilians. > > Will return to normal posting soon I hope. > > Shavuah Tov. > JOE. > ps : HaShem made all this possible through this wonderful group at the > Synagogue without walls. Baruch HaShem. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080601/b349e61b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 1 21:42:32 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 02:42:32 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage In-Reply-To: References: <7487F67B0BD4409EA6BFF6933A1820C9@bettygivin> Message-ID: <060220080242.23448.48435E170000522A00005B9822218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" : -------------- I LOVED your "two cents worth," Betty! ~Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 7:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Shalom Hanoch, and thank you for providing us with all of wonderful teachings filled with pearls of wisdom from our forefathers which we can definitely learn from and use to make positive decisions in our lives today. Before reading this article, I had been aware of the story of Nachshan and his act of courage which bred courage in the Hebrew people to follow in his lead in crossing the Sea of Reeds. But I had never looked at the aspects of risk taking of Elimeleck and Boaz and compared their motives in their courageous acts. It seems that kavana (intent) played a huge part in their lives as it does in our lives today. It is interesting to note, as we come closer to Shavuot, the aspect of courage and abandonment that Ruth took in leaving her kinsman and going with her mother-in-law, Naomi. Have you ever stopped to think, that if she had not taken that risk and done what she knew she must even though difficult, that she most likely would have not met Boaz, and then he would have not have had the opportunity to reach out and help her and then take the social risk of marrying her? Did she know at the time that by leaving Moab and her family and going with Naomi that she would have a tremendous impact of history, that she would be the grandmother of King David, by far the most beloved king Israel ever had? Most likely not; to her, it was one simple act of courage and kindness. She no doubt had first had the kavanah (intent), then followed thru with the act? My point is that we never know what effect an act of Torah courage on our part may have on another person. Often courage (and encouragement) sparks more of the same. As we have seen in the microcosm of our own little group, our lives are so interrelated?we are all connected, and are thus obligated, in some degree, to one another?each may interpret that statement to the degree that it fits? I think it is a good thing? My two cents? Shalom and blessings, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:41 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar: Torah Courage Shalom v'Boker tov, This is an interesting article from this week's Parsha (Torah Portion) which ties in Shavuot, which is slightly more then one week away.... Hanoch Bamidbar: Torah Courage 27 Iyar 5768, 01 June 08 01:26by Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Riskin (IsraelNN.com) "And these are the names of the men that shall stand with you: of Reuven, Elizur the son of Shedeur. Of Shimon, Shelimuiel the son of Zurishaddai. Of Judah, Nachshon the son of Aminadav.... " (Numbers 1:5-7) For as long as I can remember, Orthodox Judaism has been perceived by much of the world - even the Orthodox world - as a conservative, sheltered, old-fashioned way of life, unwilling to take risks in the face of new challenges, preferring to retreat into its own shell like a turtle. A Midrashic comment on this week's portion of Bamidbar makes the point that a conservative, risk-free existence is not a genuine Torah value. Certainly standing by on the sidelines is hardly a characteristic to be found in the person of Nachshon, prince of the tribe of Judah, who jumped into the Reed Sea in advance of the Egyptians. It was only after his demonstration of faith that the Almighty went the next step and split the Reed Sea. The Midrash (also recorded in Bava Batra 91a) points out that this courageous Nachshon had four sons, including Elimelech, husband of Naomi, and Shalmon, father of Boaz; hence, Nachshon was father and grandfather of two major personalities in the Scroll of Ruth, which we will be reading shortly on Shavuot. In presenting such a genealogy, the Midrash stresses not only the characteristics of risk-taking by the descendants of Nachshon, but also what kind of risks are favored by the Torah and what kind are not. The fact is that courage and risk-taking, or the lack of it, may be seen as an underlying theme of the whole book of Bamidbar. The fourth book of the Torah records the history of the Israelites' 40 years of wandering in the desert. When it opens we do not yet know that the people will be punished to wander for 40 years, but by the time the book closes it is clear that the Jewish people have failed their first major test. When the spies return with a frightening report about the Promised Land and the ability to conquer it (Numbers 13-14), the Israelites demonstrate a total lack of resolve, fortitude and faith. They wail, they tremble, they plead not to go on with the mission. They are not prepared to take the risk of war even for the conquest of the Promised Land. Certainly, the Bible would have wanted the Hebrews to have acted with courage, to have made the first heroic and even dangerous moves which come with independence and responsibility. Nachshon at the shore of the Reed Sea shines as the antithesis of a cowardly "desert generation." Because of his fearless daring, the people were saved. Indeed, the Gaon of Vilna points out that the Torah first describes the Israelites as having gone "into the midst of the sea on the dry land" (Exodus 14:22), and later "on dry land in the midst of the sea" (Exodus 14:29). The initial description refers to Nachshon and his followers who risked their lives by jumping into the raging waters. G-d made a miracle for them, the waters splitting into dry land and serving as a wall, homa, on the right and the left. The latter description refers to the rest of the Israelites who only entered after the dry land appeared; for them, the waters also became a wall, but this time written with out the letter vuv, which forms the alternate reading of hema, or "anger". Nachshon's remarkable ability to take risks was transmitted to his son Elimelech and grand-son Boaz. Hence, the Scroll of Ruth closes with the names of ten generations from Peretz (son of Judah) to King David, and Nachshon appears right in the center, the pivotal figure between the age of the patriarchs and the generation of monarchy-messiah. But while Nachshon and Boaz are to be praised for their risk-taking, Elimelech can only be reviled for his. When a terrible famine descends upon Bethlehem, the home of Elimelech, he packs up his family and decides to start a new life in the land of Moab. Undoubtedly, this demonstrates courage on the part of Elimelech, the ability to risk the unknown in a strange environment. But his motivation was greed. He refused to share his bounty with his starving kinsmen, and he was willing to leave his homeland and his ancestral roots for the sake of his wealth. Hence, tragedy strikes. Elimelech dies, and his sons, inevitably, marry Moabite women. His progeny die as well, causing Elimelech to have reaped as his harvest only oblivion - from a Jewish point of view. In contrast, Boaz does not leave Bethlehem during the famine. And when the challenge arises to do an act of loving-kindness for Naomi and redeem Elimelech's land, as well as to marry the stranger - Ruth, a convert - Boaz assumes the financial obligation and the social risk involved in the marriage. The descendant from this union turns out to be none other than King David, from whom the messianic line emerges. Elimelech's risk was based upon greed and forsaking his tradition; it ends in his death and destruction. Boaz's risk was based upon loving-kindness and results in redemption. The Elimelech-Boaz dialectic is a perennial theme in the Jewish world. Risk is positive, and even mandatory, from a Jewish perspective. The question we have to ask ourselves is the motivation - and that determines the result. www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/eec7f447/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Jun 2 05:30:20 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:30:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Mt Zion Dig in the Summer Message-ID: <9E4D0753-D3B1-4037-B73F-F58F921617D7@earthlink.net> The Mt Zion excavation in Jerussalem for this summer begins June 15th, just two weeks away, and I fly to Israel on June 9th--Shavuot! Getting funds for archaeology is always a challenge and most digs try to go to the big sponsors. We have done our share of that and successfully raised about 100K to fund our summer season last year and the month this past March. However, June/July is upon us and I am finding the traditional donors are pulling back, talking about "come back in the Spring" after the election, etc. We have decided to go directly to the people. As you know, politicians have shown of late that millions of dollars can be raised via the Internet by grassroots folks in donations ranging from $25 and on up...I really believe it works. I reminds me of Moses going directly to the people, and getting more than enough. I guess you could say it is "biblical." As of midnight last night we have kicked off a Mt Zion June Fund Drive...our goal is to quickly raise the essential bare-bones budget of $63,000 for operational costs of the Dig. Some wealthy donor could give this easily, and maybe one will, but I believe the people pulling together, who love the Land, the city of Jerusalem, and archaeology and what it can mean, can get this money in a short time. My plan is to get the word out to thousands of people and you can each help me with this. I think many of you realize this dig site is not just "another" archaeological project...We are the first University to get a license to dig in Jerusalem in over 30 years. It is a miracle that it has all gone through it has been a great struggle. Yet I have been absolutely convinced this is something we should do. I think it might turn out to have historic dimensions. So here is what I want to ask you to do...Go to the Web site http://digmountzion.com Brian Jones has set up our Fund Drive information, a graph showing how we are doing, and donate NOW any amount you can just so you can join our campaign. You can use any major credit card or a Pay Pal account. But just as important, spread the word for us this week. I honestly believe that word of mouth is the key. Each of us knows a dozen or so others, if we put our heads together, who will want to participate. As of now there is only "one" donation, I made it early this AM to kick things off, but I plan to give some additional amounts through this week, just to keep that graph rising. I hope some of you can join me today and we can get this kicked off properly. There is also, on that same page, a very nicely done video that tells more of our work and the site, and please browse the site, there is lots of information there. Why is this important? What do we hope to find and accomplish? Please read the attached Flyer that gives all the details and pass it along to others. Thanks for your help, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MtZionFundFlyerJuneDrive.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1030383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/b62756b2/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 05:56:00 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 06:56:00 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] From, "Bamidbar, bees and numbers" Message-ID: Hi Betty, It's not so much that there's a "division with Judaism about whether the Lost Tribes will return," but the fact that it is a NON -issue. There is no "buzz" about it, no one is discussing it - it is simply a NON-issue. However, when you think that it is only fairly recently that people are beginning to realize that they might be Ephramites, and they typically have few dealings with Jews.....then it's no surprise that it is an unknown phenomenon. That's item #1 that has to change immediately....thoughts to follow later....... Hanoch **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/18ac7e36/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 07:40:08 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:40:08 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Yerushalayim Sameach Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 28 Iyar 5768 June 2, 2008 Shalom The fear of Hashem is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and discipline. Mishle/Proverbs 1:7 Yom Yerushalayim - Jerusalem Day Centuries before Christianity and Islam came into being, the Psalmists wrote: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." This Psalm137, recited daily in the Grace after Meals, begins with the poignant verse: "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, sat and wept, as we thought of Zion." Jews continued to remember Zion even after Israel's hard-fought War of Independence, when Jordan controlled east Jerusalem and Jews were barred from visiting the Western Wall and Temple Mount. Thus, in January 1950 the Knesset, meeting in west Jerusalem, declared the city Israel's capital. On June 5, 1967, Jordan attacked Israel. King Hussein's legionnaires occupied UN headquarters, bombarded Mount Scopus (the Hebrew University enclave), and attacked Kibbutz Ramat Rahel. In this war of self-defense Israel threw back the invaders and unified the city. Today the city flourishes. It is home to 746,000 souls, of whom 257,000, or 34 percent, are Arabs. Birthrates (Jewish and Arab) are booming and nearly identical. Fewer residents than in the past are leaving town. Health care for all is outstanding. On a summer weekend, you would be hard-pressed to find a hotel room, or a table at one of the city's fine restaurants. Tourism has never been better. The city's cultural attractions and trendy neighborhoods make Jerusalem an altogether delightful place. Even our gazelles were recently granted a secure area in which to flourish. But beyond all that, to us, Jerusalem remains forever the heart of Israel and the heart of Judaism. It is here, in Jerusalem, that both of our Temples stood and it is here in Jerusalem that the Temple will stand again. It is to Jerusalem that the Mashiach will come and in the kingdom to come, it is to Jerusalem that all nations will gather to worship Hashem. (Zech. 14) Today Israel celebrates Jerusalem Day - the anniversary according to the Hebrew calendar, of the re-unification of the city. May it forever remain united. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/9fb39153/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 2 09:59:58 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:59:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Yerushalayim Sameach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Hanoch, for bringing this special day to the forefront of our minds today! Yes, may Jerusalem never again be divided! Praying for the Peace of Yerushalayim! Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Yerushalayim Sameach The Lekarev Report 28 Iyar 5768 June 2, 2008 Shalom The fear of Hashem is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and discipline. Mishle/Proverbs 1:7 Yom Yerushalayim - Jerusalem Day Centuries before Christianity and Islam came into being, the Psalmists wrote: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." This Psalm137, recited daily in the Grace after Meals, begins with the poignant verse: "By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, sat and wept, as we thought of Zion." Jews continued to remember Zion even after Israel's hard-fought War of Independence, when Jordan controlled east Jerusalem and Jews were barred from visiting the Western Wall and Temple Mount. Thus, in January 1950 the Knesset, meeting in west Jerusalem, declared the city Israel's capital. On June 5, 1967, Jordan attacked Israel. King Hussein's legionnaires occupied UN headquarters, bombarded Mount Scopus (the Hebrew University enclave), and attacked Kibbutz Ramat Rahel. In this war of self-defense Israel threw back the invaders and unified the city. Today the city flourishes. It is home to 746,000 souls, of whom 257,000, or 34 percent, are Arabs. Birthrates (Jewish and Arab) are booming and nearly identical. Fewer residents than in the past are leaving town. Health care for all is outstanding. On a summer weekend, you would be hard-pressed to find a hotel room, or a table at one of the city's fine restaurants. Tourism has never been better. The city's cultural attractions and trendy neighborhoods make Jerusalem an altogether delightful place. Even our gazelles were recently granted a secure area in which to flourish. But beyond all that, to us, Jerusalem remains forever the heart of Israel and the heart of Judaism. It is here, in Jerusalem, that both of our Temples stood and it is here in Jerusalem that the Temple will stand again. It is to Jerusalem that the Mashiach will come and in the kingdom to come, it is to Jerusalem that all nations will gather to worship Hashem. (Zech. 14) Today Israel celebrates Jerusalem Day - the anniversary according to the Hebrew calendar, of the re-unification of the city. May it forever remain united. _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/fcb99a9e/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 10:19:45 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:19:45 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/6e00ecc3/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jun 2 11:39:32 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:39:32 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Dear Steve: Thank you so much for your encouragement. My friend and brother do with the email as the LORD shall lead you. I'm so moved by you kind comments. CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/8ecce9b5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re:The Yeshua thread Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 08:48:42 -0700 Size: 9255 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/8ecce9b5/attachment.mht From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jun 2 11:42:11 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 02:42:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Yerushalayim - 1 minute Movie Message-ID: <484422E3.7010109@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/56ddc77c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jun 2 12:23:52 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:23:52 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP.] Message-ID: <48442CA8.4070804@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/33fe5522/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: MT TAMBORINE.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 98527 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/33fe5522/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "chris fordham" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP. Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:40:59 -0400 Size: 12561 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/33fe5522/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jun 2 12:51:54 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:51:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM YERUSHALAYIM : Dreaming of Moshiach: Climax of Victory Message-ID: <4844333A.6070704@westnet.com.au> Shalom Hanoch and Chaverim, A special Yom Yerushalayim Tribute. AM YISRAEL CHAI. JOE http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/06/climax-of-victory.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 2 13:40:18 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:40:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM YERUSHALAYIM : Dreaming of Moshiach: Climax of Victory In-Reply-To: <4844333A.6070704@westnet.com.au> References: <4844333A.6070704@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CA92F73DACD504-1388-2372@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com> Toda Joe! ????? This is very special - thank you so much for sharing it....those were amazing times!? Mashiach was knocking at the door, but we were too busy to answer it....we could have cleared the abomination off the Har HaBayit (Temple Mount) in the same way we cleared the plaza to the Kotel (the Western retaining wall of Herod's Temple Mount), all before the world realized it.? We could have rid the land of the cancer that remains "..thorns in our eyes," but we didn't.??We were too ready to give it up...too ready to become 'a nation like every other nation...'? and we've been paying dearly for those decisions ever since.... ???? Sorry to rant, it was great that you sent it achi (my brother), and I really appreciate it.... ???? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 1:51 pm Subject: [Dialogue] YOM YERUSHALAYIM : Dreaming of Moshiach: Climax of Victory Shalom Hanoch and Chaverim,? ? A special Yom Yerushalayim Tribute.? ? AM YISRAEL CHAI.? ? JOE? http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2008/06/climax-of-victory.html? ? _______________________________________________? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/969823d1/attachment.html From ally_kale at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 2 15:51:28 2008 From: ally_kale at yahoo.com.au (Ally Kale) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Mt. Tambourine Message-ID: <943356.43390.qm@web44815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe and all,   It is so refreshing to read all the kind comments re: the Shabbat experience on Mt. Tambourine this past Shabbat.  It was equally a joy for us to have you (Joe) and Leo join us.  It seems you have a wealth of knowledge that  (I will speak for Moshe and myself here) we will be able to glean from.  I find it fascinating that people can come together from all walks of life, a variety of backgrounds and from different levels of understanding, come and sit together to learn Torah, and get along with each other the way we do.  It truly is a work of the Almighty..??  We are looking forward to future Shabbats with you.    Blessings, Moshe and Ally Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/d83f56ba/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jun 2 18:45:05 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:45:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/1ee93940/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 2 19:11:33 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:11:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass.then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have.don't have the time to look up the references at this point. I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved.they are loving and forgive so quickly.come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list.so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/fb180d83/attachment.html From ally_kale at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 2 19:37:17 2008 From: ally_kale at yahoo.com.au (Ally Kale) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Israel Message-ID: <28625.27818.qm@web44815.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>  Hi to all fellow dialoguer's,   I am forwarding this email I received from a friend and fellow believer in the U.S.  Unfortunately I am not eligible to enter being in Au.  But in case any of you who are in the states are interested, here it is....   Blessings, Moshe and Ally   Subject: WIN A TRIP TO ISRAEL Promote Israel tourism on YouTube and win two flights from U.S. By www.goisrael.com Tags: YouTube, Tourism Ministry  Government-sponsored comp asks entrants for videos on 'the best reason to visit Israel .' Israel's Tourism Ministry is asking for adverts promoting travel to Israel , and is offering two free flights from the U.S. for the winning submission.. Entrants to the contest, launched to celebrate Israel 's 60th birthday, are asked to produce a short video showing what they believe is "the best reason to visit Israel ." The videos are to be uploaded on YouTube or Google Video, after which entrants must complete an online entry form at goisrael.com/videocontest Advertisement   The winner will receive two free round-trip air tickets from Chicago to Tel Aviv, courtesy of El Al. The contest opened on May 8 and will run to July 7. It is open to U.S. residents aged 13 years and older. For more details, go to goisrael.com/videocontest Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 73 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 73 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 73 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment-0003.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 73 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080602/03cc82fa/attachment-0004.gif From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 2 20:35:14 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 01:35:14 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> Message-ID: <060320080135.20975.48449FD1000726F2000051EF22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Pat and Clyde, Yes, yes, yes! I was gonna say the same thing Betty said when I read your posts but she beat me to it. ;-{)} This is Dialoguing! I would like to discuss Yeshua and his place as Rabbi and the impact he had on both Judiasm and the Gentile world even before Paul became involved. I am following a discussion on another list of folks and one of the points I keep hearing from the Jewish side of the discussion in response to arguments promoting Yeshua's place in history is that he left no writings (as so many other beloved Rabbi's have). I have my own opinion on that point but I would be interested in what y'all have to say about that. John/Eliron -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not ?one jot or tittle? would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the ?old law? by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to ?hit and run,? but that is all the time I have?don?t have the time to look up the references at this point? I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/25d83cbe/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 07:39:17 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:39:17 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] From today's Lekarev Report Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 29 Iyar 5768 June 3, 2008 Shalom My son, despise not the chastening of Hashem, neither spurn His correction; For whom Hashem loves He corrects, even as a father the son in whom he delights. Mishle/Proverbs 3:11-12 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/5cfaa5f9/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:12:42 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:12:42 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Dear Pat,Betty, and all: We got ourselves a golden puppy as a companion for us and our other golden. Thank you for caring. Betty you are so correct in regard to the letter to the assemblies in Galatia. In my story I suggest if we do not get right what Sha'ul excelled in before his Damascus Road experience, and what he destroyed after that experience, then we will not understand that Sha'ul was about restoring the Abraham faith. I have ordered a good book about that, and James I hope you have received my check. In any case in my story what Sha'ul destroyed were all those man made commandments of his Pharisaical fathers. Why would Sha'ul destroy all those commandments that were added to the Torah of G-D? Well, he found out that many of those commandments that were added to the Torah of G-D actually broke the commandments of G-D. He said to pick these man made commandments back up again would make him a transgressor. We might ask, a transgressor of what? Of course, a transgressor of the written commandments of G-D. Well, who pointed out that these commandments that were added to the Torah that broke the commandments of G-D? This is what Yeshua said - why do you break the commandments of G-D through your traditions? Could it be that those man made traditions were being put upon the folks in Antioch first and then in the assemblies in Galatia? Old habits are hard to break. Sha'ul was knocked on his can before he could get his mind right. He learned that you cannot add to the Torah or take anything away. This whole notion that all these man made additions were given to Moses and handed down until the Pharisees made them clear to the Jewish people, but in my story, I don't accept that notion. To interpret is one thing - but to add to the Torah laws that are not there to be read out of the Torah is just wrongheaded in my view. And so, if we don't get the man made laws as the works of the law that Sha'ul destroyed and the Torah that is holy and the commandment that is holy, and just, and good, that Sha'ul said that a correct faith upholds and establishes, then all else he says in the letter to Galatia will not make sense. I hope N.T. Wright is able to figure that out, but if he does he is in big trouble with a great many other scholars. Now for me in my story I see this very clearly, that since those who were troubling those in Antioch and later in Galatia, they had connected all of these added laws that they believed came from Moses and handed down. Now, why for heavens sake would G-D instruct Moses that all that G-D gave him is not to be added to or taken away - if added laws that Moses was given to be added by the Pharisees? Think about it. Dear friends we somehow I think must realize just how big an issue these added Laws and connected to Moses, and may I saw put in the mouth of Moses, what G-D never did. When the party of the Pharisees had joined themselves to the Yehsiua movement when they spoke of the Law of Moses - they were speaking of these added laws as well, since they had put words in the mouth of Moses. Peter saw it clearly in Acts 15, when the party of the Pharisees were making their case. Peter observed what they were claiming was in fact tempting G-D. He saw the party of the Pharisees were attempting to add grievous burdens upon the people. Now, N.T. Wright is part way there in getting things right where Wright was wrong. But I will suggest to all, that if N.T Wright can get right the difference between the written Torah of G-D and the right works of the Torah, and make the distinction between the wrong set of works that Moses did not give, and the eight set of works that Moses did give then all the rest will fall into line. Now, this is my story from a great amount of work over a five year period. Two sets of works - and only one came from Moses, and it was those works that Yeshua was about restoring, and that other set of works added by the Pharisees that Yeshua was about destroyed. Now, I believe that if scholars could that distinction clear between those two sets of works then they would have an opportunity to remove the blindness in Christianity. Well, that my story, and until someone can convince me otherwise I'm sticking to it. CB . **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/c98a1231/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:11:33 -0500 Size: 36960 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/c98a1231/attachment.mht From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:13:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:13:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" Message-ID: Shalom v'Boker tov! This is a brief but interesting, thought-provoking article that I wanted to share. Since I don't know much about 'relationships' in general, I won't comment, and will let the article speak for itself. Hanoch The 3500-Year Marriage 29 Iyar 5768, 03 June 08 12:57 by Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo (IsraelNN.com) Yom Ha?atzmaut, which we just celebrated, is the 60th anniversary of a marriage that has lasted more than 3,500 years. This may sound like a paradox but it is a truism about the Land of Israel and the Jews. No marriage has been so long, so deep in its commitment and so overwhelming in its love as the one between the Jews and their homeland. At the same time, no marriage has been so painful nor so tragic, for the partners were forced apart by the Roman Empire nearly 2000 years ago. Yet the Jews metaphorically lifted the Land of Israel from its native soil and transformed it into a portable homeland, taking it with them to the four corners of the earth. Only in 1948 were the land and its people physically reunited. Renewal of Vows The founding of the State of Israel then is not the beginning of the marriage between the land and the people of Israel, but rather, a reaffirmation of nuptials that took place thousands of years ago between God and Abraham the Hebrew. The modern State of Israel was not established in 1948 but rather in the year 70, on the day after the Romans exiled the Jews. But no marriage can be taken for granted, not even after 3,500 years. When a bridegroom offers his new wife a ring as a sign of commitment, he knows that this is only the first installment of an ongoing pledge. No marriage can endure if both partners do not constantly re-invest in their relationship. And only a mission ? a common dream ? can sustain a marriage; only something greater than itself will allow it to succeed. Marriage is a single soul dwelling in two bodies, but a soul that has lost its purpose loses itself. Ironically, the people of Israel today are struggling to stay spiritually wed to their land. Rampant materialism and militant secularism have eroded Israel ?s sense of Jewish identity and the historical consciousness that gives meaning to its national existence. Growing numbers of its residents lack Jewish self-understanding and question why they should live in this country at all. How long will Israeli soldiers be ready to sacrifice their lives for just a country? People are willing to die only for that by which they have lived. And human beings can live meaningful lives only when they know that there is something eternal worth dying for. What bound the partners together for thousands of years is the mission to be ?a light unto the nations,? as pronounced by the prophet Isaiah. The marriage was created to give birth to a wellspring of religious and moral teachings that will suffuse mankind with the knowledge that life is holy and that God awaits man in order to redeem His world. Connecting Heaven and Earth This, then, is the mandate of the land and the people of Israel: To elevate the human race so that it becomes a link between the divine and the earthly. For life is a trust, a privilege ? not a game or a triviality. The Jewish people married the land in order to create a model society to be emulated by all of mankind. It is the rabbis who consecrate a marriage. But that is only part of their task. As pastors, they are responsible to ensure the marriage?s success and to tend to it if it flounders or gets bogged down. The hour requires strong, resolute religious and moral guidance. Israel?s religious leaders must work to renew the Jewish people and restore their sense of historic-national identity. They must inspire a feeling of longing for the unique mission of the Jewish People in order to strengthen the marriage and enable it to achieve its full potential after the long and difficult separation. To do that, the religious leadership must extricate itself from the morass in which it is stagnated. In an unprecedented initiative, it must steer the ship of an inspiring, rejuvenated Judaism in full sail right into the heart of Israeli society, causing shockwaves that impact on every aspect of life. Like the prophets of old, the religious leaders must generate a spiritual revolution, triggering an ethical-religious uproar that will shake the very foundations of the State. Their failure to do so is nothing less than a tragic dereliction of duty. Israelis are waiting for such a move and will respond overwhelmingly. Only then will the Jewish people re-engage with its land. Only then can the Jewish people stay eternally married to its land. This is Israel?s hope and future. May God bless Israel! Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo is the founder and dean of the David Cardozo Academy in Jerusalem. His latest book For the Love of Israel and the Jewish People was just published by Urim. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/bea021a6/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 08:20:22 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:20:22 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: When you come to where somehow eight got in there when I meant to write right, then maybe the rest will make sense. CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/de79329e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:12:42 EDT Size: 50314 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/de79329e/attachment.mht From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 08:28:02 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:28:02 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, CB. ~ Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear Pat,Betty, and all: We got ourselves a golden puppy as a companion for us and our other golden. Thank you for caring. Betty you are so correct in regard to the letter to the assemblies in Galatia. In my story I suggest if we do not get right what Sha'ul excelled in before his Damascus Road experience, and what he destroyed after that experience, then we will not understand that Sha'ul was about restoring the Abraham faith. I have ordered a good book about that, and James I hope you have received my check. In any case in my story what Sha'ul destroyed were all those man made commandments of his Pharisaical fathers. Why would Sha'ul destroy all those commandments that were added to the Torah of G-D? Well, he found out that many of those commandments that were added to the Torah of G-D actually broke the commandments of G-D. He said to pick these man made commandments back up again would make him a transgressor. We might ask, a transgressor of what? Of course, a transgressor of the written commandments of G-D. Well, who pointed out that these commandments that were added to the Torah that broke the commandments of G-D? This is what Yeshua said - why do you break the commandments of G-D through your traditions? Could it be that those man made traditions were being put upon the folks in Antioch first and then in the assemblies in Galatia? Old habits are hard to break. Sha'ul was knocked on his can before he could get his mind right. He learned that you cannot add to the Torah or take anything away. This whole notion that all these man made additions were given to Moses and handed down until the Pharisees made them clear to the Jewish people, but in my story, I don't accept that notion. To interpret is one thing - but to add to the Torah laws that are not there to be read out of the Torah is just wrongheaded in my view. And so, if we don't get the man made laws as the works of the law that Sha'ul destroyed and the Torah that is holy and the commandment that is holy, and just, and good, that Sha'ul said that a correct faith upholds and establishes, then all else he says in the letter to Galatia will not make sense. I hope N.T. Wright is able to figure that out, but if he does he is in big trouble with a great many other scholars. Now for me in my story I see this very clearly, that since those who were troubling those in Antioch and later in Galatia, they had connected all of these added laws that they believed came from Moses and handed down. Now, why for heavens sake would G-D instruct Moses that all that G-D gave him is not to be added to or taken away - if added laws that Moses was given to be added by the Pharisees? Think about it. Dear friends we somehow I think must realize just how big an issue these added Laws and connected to Moses, and may I saw put in the mouth of Moses, what G-D never did. When the party of the Pharisees had joined themselves to the Yehsiua movement when they spoke of the Law of Moses - they were speaking of these added laws as well, since they had put words in the mouth of Moses. Peter saw it clearly in Acts 15, when the party of the Pharisees were making their case. Peter observed what they were claiming was in fact tempting G-D. He saw the party of the Pharisees were attempting to add grievous burdens upon the people. Now, N.T. Wright is part way there in getting things right where Wright was wrong. But I will suggest to all, that if N.T Wright can get right the difference between the written Torah of G-D and the right works of the Torah, and make the distinction between the wrong set of works that Moses did not give, and the eight set of works that Moses did give then all the rest will fall into line. Now, this is my story from a great amount of work over a five year period. Two sets of works - and only one came from Moses, and it was those works that Yeshua was about restoring, and that other set of works added by the Pharisees that Yeshua was about destroyed. Now, I believe that if scholars could that distinction clear between those two sets of works then they would have an opportunity to remove the blindness in Christianity. Well, that my story, and until someone can convince me otherwise I'm sticking to it. CB . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/4b2c4954/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Jun 3 12:02:45 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:02:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <035101c8c59b$a661f720$f325e560$@com> Wow, Hanoch, this is amazing. Dave and I are going to Israel in two weeks and were thinking of renewing OUR marriage vows there. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:13 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" Shalom v'Boker tov! This is a brief but interesting, thought-provoking article that I wanted to share. Since I don't know much about 'relationships' in general, I won't comment, and will let the article speak for itself. Hanoch The 3500-Year Marriage 29 Iyar 5768, 03 June 08 12:57 by Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo (IsraelNN.com) Yom Ha?atzmaut, which we just celebrated, is the 60th anniversary of a marriage that has lasted more than 3,500 years. This may sound like a paradox but it is a truism about the Land of Israel and the Jews. No marriage has been so long, so deep in its commitment and so overwhelming in its love as the one between the Jews and their homeland. At the same time, no marriage has been so painful nor so tragic, for the partners were forced apart by the Roman Empire nearly 2000 years ago. Yet the Jews metaphorically lifted the Land of Israel from its native soil and transformed it into a portable homeland, taking it with them to the four corners of the earth. Only in 1948 were the land and its people physically reunited. Renewal of Vows The founding of the State of Israel then is not the beginning of the marriage between the land and the people of Israel, but rather, a reaffirmation of nuptials that took place thousands of years ago between God and Abraham the Hebrew. The modern State of Israel was not established in 1948 but rather in the year 70, on the day after the Romans exiled the Jews. But no marriage can be taken for granted, not even after 3,500 years. When a bridegroom offers his new wife a ring as a sign of commitment, he knows that this is only the first installment of an ongoing pledge. No marriage can endure if both partners do not constantly re-invest in their relationship. And only a mission ? a common dream ? can sustain a marriage; only something greater than itself will allow it to succeed. Marriage is a single soul dwelling in two bodies, but a soul that has lost its purpose loses itself. Ironically, the people of Israel today are struggling to stay spiritually wed to their land. Rampant materialism and militant secularism have eroded Israel?s sense of Jewish identity and the historical consciousness that gives meaning to its national existence. Growing numbers of its residents lack Jewish self-understanding and question why they should live in this country at all. How long will Israeli soldiers be ready to sacrifice their lives for just a country? People are willing to die only for that by which they have lived. And human beings can live meaningful lives only when they know that there is something eternal worth dying for. What bound the partners together for thousands of years is the mission to be ?a light unto the nations,? as pronounced by the prophet Isaiah. The marriage was created to give birth to a wellspring of religious and moral teachings that will suffuse mankind with the knowledge that life is holy and that God awaits man in order to redeem His world. Connecting Heaven and Earth This, then, is the mandate of the land and the people of Israel: To elevate the human race so that it becomes a link between the divine and the earthly. For life is a trust, a privilege ? not a game or a triviality. The Jewish people married the land in order to create a model society to be emulated by all of mankind. It is the rabbis who consecrate a marriage. But that is only part of their task. As pastors, they are responsible to ensure the marriage?s success and to tend to it if it flounders or gets bogged down. The hour requires strong, resolute religious and moral guidance. Israel?s religious leaders must work to renew the Jewish people and restore their sense of historic-national identity. They must inspire a feeling of longing for the unique mission of the Jewish People in order to strengthen the marriage and enable it to achieve its full potential after the long and difficult separation. To do that, the religious leadership must extricate itself from the morass in which it is stagnated. In an unprecedented initiative, it must steer the ship of an inspiring, rejuvenated Judaism in full sail right into the heart of Israeli society, causing shockwaves that impact on every aspect of life. Like the prophets of old, the religious leaders must generate a spiritual revolution, triggering an ethical-religious uproar that will shake the very foundations of the State. Their failure to do so is nothing less than a tragic dereliction of duty. Israelis are waiting for such a move and will respond overwhelmingly. Only then will the Jewish people re-engage with its land. Only then can the Jewish people stay eternally married to its land. This is Israel?s hope and future. May God bless Israel! Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo is the founder and dean of the David Cardozo Academy in Jerusalem. His latest book For the Love of Israel and the Jewish People was just published by Urim. _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/d334f700/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 12:25:07 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:25:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" In-Reply-To: <035101c8c59b$a661f720$f325e560$@com> References: <035101c8c59b$a661f720$f325e560$@com> Message-ID: <8CA93B5E6C43177-1778-11E8@FWM-M41.sysops.aol.com> Hey Patty, ???? Wow is right!? And that is so sweet...you've got to send us all pictures, okay?? I know little about (happy) marriage, and even less about love, but renewing vows seems like such a wonderful idea!??Enjoy! ????Best regards, ???????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 1:02 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" Wow, Hanoch, this is amazing. Dave and I are going to Israel in two weeks and were thinking of renewing OUR marriage vows there. ? Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:13 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "The 3500-Year Marriage" ? Shalom v'Boker tov! ? ????This is a brief but interesting, thought-provoking article that I wanted to share.? Since I don't know?much about 'relationships' in general, I won't comment, and will let the article speak for itself. ????????Hanoch The 3500-Year Marriage 29 Iyar 5768, 03 June 08 12:57 by Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo (IsraelNN.com) Yom Ha?atzmaut, which we just celebrated, is the 60th anniversary of a marriage that has lasted more than 3,500 years. This may sound like a paradox but it is a truism about the Land of Israel and the Jews.? No marriage has been so long, so deep in its commitment and so overwhelming in its love as the one between the Jews and their homeland. At the same time, no marriage has been so painful nor so tragic, for the partners were forced apart by the Roman Empire nearly 2000 years ago.? Yet the Jews metaphorically lifted the Land of Israel from its native soil and transformed it into a portable homeland, taking it with them to the four corners of the earth.? Only in 1948 were the land and its people physically reunited. Renewal of Vows The founding of the State of Israel then is not the beginning of the marriage between the land and the people of Israel, but rather, a reaffirmation of nuptials that took place thousands of years ago between God and Abraham the Hebrew. The modern State of Israel was not established in 1948 but rather in the year 70, on the day after the Romans exiled the Jews.????????????? But no marriage can be taken for granted, not even after 3,500 years. When a bridegroom offers his new wife a ring as a sign of commitment, he knows that this is only the first installment of an ongoing pledge. No marriage can endure if both partners do not constantly re-invest in their relationship. And only a mission ? a common dream ? can sustain a marriage; only something greater than itself will allow it to succeed. Marriage is a single soul dwelling in two bodies, but a soul that has lost its purpose loses itself.? Ironically, the people of Israel today are struggling to stay spiritually wed to their land. Rampant materialism and militant secularism have eroded Israel?s sense of Jewish identity and the historical consciousness that gives meaning to its national existence.? Growing numbers of its residents lack Jewish self-understanding and question why they should live in this country at all.? How long will Israeli soldiers be ready to sacrifice their lives for just a country?? People are willing to die only for that by which they have lived.? And human beings can live meaningful lives only when they know that there is something eternal worth dying for. What bound the partners together for thousands of years is the mission to be ?a light unto the nations,? as pronounced by the prophet Isaiah. The marriage was created to give birth to a wellspring of religious and moral teachings that will suffuse mankind with the knowledge that life is holy and that God awaits man in order to redeem His world.? Connecting Heaven and Earth This, then, is the mandate of the land and the people of Israel:? To elevate the human race so that it becomes a link between the divine and the earthly.? For life is a trust, a privilege ? not a game or a triviality. The Jewish people married the land in order to create a model society to be emulated by all of mankind.?????? It is the rabbis who consecrate a marriage. But that is only part of their task. As pastors, they are responsible to ensure the marriage?s success and to tend to it if it flounders or gets bogged down. The hour requires strong, resolute religious and moral guidance.? Israel?s religious leaders must work to renew the Jewish people and restore their sense of historic-national identity.? They must inspire a feeling of longing for the unique mission of the Jewish People in order to strengthen the marriage and enable it to achieve its full potential after the long and difficult separation. To do that, the religious leadership must extricate itself from the morass in which it is stagnated. In an unprecedented initiative, it must steer the ship of an inspiring, rejuvenated Judaism in full sail right into the heart of Israeli society, causing shockwaves that impact on every aspect of life.? Like the prophets of old, the religious leaders must generate a spiritual revolution, triggering an ethical-religious uproar that will shake the very foundations of the State. Their failure to do so is nothing less than a tragic dereliction of duty. Israelis are waiting for such a move and will respond overwhelmingly. Only then will the Jewish people re-engage with its land. Only then can the Jewish people stay eternally married to its land. This is Israel?s hope and future. May God bless Israel! Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo is the founder and dean of the David Cardozo Academy in Jerusalem. His latest book For the Love of Israel and the Jewish People was just published by Urim. ? Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/cec0fe54/attachment.html From puddlefrog at aol.com Tue Jun 3 13:50:56 2008 From: puddlefrog at aol.com (puddlefrog at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:50:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Please remove from list In-Reply-To: <060320080135.20975.48449FD1000726F2000051EF22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060320080135.20975.48449FD1000726F2000051EF22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <8CA93C1E45A4C8B-140C-6CC@webmail-da09.sysops.aol.com> Hi this is Tammy, Although I have enjoyed communicating with everyone, The dialogue list is interfering with my daily emails. I stilll look forward to communicating with everyone individually, I would like to be romoved from?the list. ?I am losing important family emails due to the list's bulk emails. Thank You Tammy -----Original Message----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 9:35 pm Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Pat and Clyde, ? Yes, yes, yes!? I was gonna say the same thing Betty said when I read your posts but she beat me to it. ? ?;-{)} ? This is Dialoguing! ? I would like to discuss Yeshua and his place as Rabbi and the impact he had on both Judiasm and the Gentile world even before Paul became involved. ? I am following a discussion on another list of folks and one of the points I keep hearing from the Jewish side of the discussion in response to arguments promoting Yeshua's place in history is that he left no writings (as so many other beloved Rabbi's have).? I have my own opinion on that point but I would be interested in what y'all have to say about that. ? John/Eliron ? ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response.? This is dialoguing! ? I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem.? At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua.? Since he said that not ?one jot or tittle? would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the ?old law? by Paul, by nailing it to the cross.? This is my take.? Sorry to ?hit and run,? but that is all the time I have?don?t have the time to look up the references at this point? ? I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde.? The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming.? Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them.? Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! ? Love and blessings to all, ? Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread ? YES, CB!!!? I think I understand what you are saying.? Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly.? Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much?like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well.? I so hope you are right, and that?Ephraim?will come to understand this truth: ?that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free!?? We are to walk in?the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the?GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone,?that we are justified.???????BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! ? I must here add a very important note however.? The Rabbis?ALSO teach that it is by?GRACE alone that we are justified.? Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of? G-d!? This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me.? ? I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, ? Avigail (Pat) ? From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread ? Dear friends: ? We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through?the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judg es are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation?as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. ? ? The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. ? Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. ? But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul?got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated,?and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. ? And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays? the course?he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. ? But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up?to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it.? N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter?as for the works of the Law, just what were?the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one?on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. ? By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? ? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. ? Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. ? CB??PS. My eyes fail me more?some times than?at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will.??? ? Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/47db8ebe/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Jun 2 12:30:57 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:30:57 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP.]] Message-ID: <48442E51.1060408@westnet.com.au> Shalom Chris and Amber, I forgot to put our Shabbat retreat in context to the Gold Coast. Maybe we will get to meet you one day. Shalom v'Ahavat. JOE. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gold coast.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 111731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/b8bf9517/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] LOST SHEEP.] Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:23:52 +1000 Size: 147711 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/b8bf9517/attachment.eml From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 14:18:58 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:18:58 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Message-ID: Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/c918f29a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: puddlefrog at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:50:56 -0400 Size: 41088 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/c918f29a/attachment.mht From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 16:21:51 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:21:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Message-ID: <8CA93D6F92FB250-C18-6C9@webmail-me16.sysops.aol.com> Shalom L'Kulchem, ? ??? I was just reading from Amos HaNavi, the Prophet Amos.? I've included the last seven verses, there's a lot to consider here....they kind of jumped off the page at me.... ?????????? Hanoch "Behold the eyes of the L-rd G-d are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will utterly destroy it from off the face of the earth; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Ya'aqov, says the L-rd.? For, lo, I will command and I will sift the house of Yisra'el among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.? All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake or meet us.? On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and repair its breaches; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, who are called by my? name, says the L-rd who does this. Behold, days are coming, says the L-rd, when the ploughman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.? And I will bring back the captivity of my people of Yisra'al, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink their wine; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.? And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked put of their land which I have given the, says the L-rd they G-d. " ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Amos 9:8-15 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/75a1e6f1/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 16:43:48 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:43:48 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Message-ID: Great my pal Hanoch, keep em coming. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/fd0193df/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:21:51 -0400 Size: 7861 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/fd0193df/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 16:44:28 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <340750.35760.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> All who may not know this, take note.   You can disable receiving emails @  http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/options/dialogue go down to Mail delivery and click on Disabled   Then, you can follow the threads at your convenience just by logging in @ http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/  and clicking on Thread. They are sorted by Month.   Tracy --- On Tue, 6/3/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> wrote: From: CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 2:18 PM Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde  Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/3318a0f1/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 16:44:29 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:44:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 70 weeks determined upon your people. Message-ID: A period of 490 years were determined upon the people of Daniel. This was a national prophecy and directed toward the Jewish people who would return to Zion , a prophecy Daniel never lived to see fulfilled. Daniel was told to go his way knowledge will be increased and the wise will understand. Well today in this time and place eyes are being opened and the wise are turning to the Torah for understanding. Moses spoke of a prophet that would be raised up out the their people and to him they should listen. Out of the people, meaning out of the children of Israel. So much for coming from heaven don't you think? Well, if this prophet is to be like Moses, what should we think he will teach? Ross is answering this question just about every time he speaks. OK, we have got that part down, this prophet must speak what Moses spoke. And so, if Yehsua is that prophet and Gary Arvidson has 60 factors that say he is. 40 years before the destruction of the sanctuary and the city of Jerusalem a cry went out, repent and believe the gospel. What gospel? Again Ross answered that, the good news is the kingdom of G-D is coming to this earth. James Tabor wrote about this return and its an article on the UI web site. Now, lets continue on with the story. If those that went out to check on this man baptizing in the Jordan River, and he told them you better repent, then there must have been something the authorities better be repenting of. And what might that be? Could they have been with all good intentions a fence was built that was breaking the Holy Commandments of G-D while they were blinded to the fact. Well, how are they going to know unless someone is sent by G-D to tell them? And where might G-D get those from to do the telling? Moses again gives the answer. G-D will raise up a prophet like me out of your people. The Pharisees were authorized to sit in Moses seat to read the Torah and the Prophets and expound upon what they read. Interpretation is allowed and one might interpret a little different than someone else and that is ok. But what was not ok was to add to or take away from the Torah or the Prophets, even if it began with good intentions But when the prophet was sent by G-D warning the authorities to mend their ways, and they refuse to do so, it could end in exile. But let no one say in my presence that G-D caused the Hitler Holocaust because that would put them on the fighting side of me. Although many try to slip, spin and slid out of it, by no small measure Christianity caused it, and I think there will be a great price to pay for those refusing to come out of her. I don't fully understand it, but suffering servants standing up for the cause of Almighty G-D seems to have great favor in his eyes. And yes my pal Hanoch there have been many a suffering servant among the Jews, and no one can tell me that they do not have a place in the world to come. I got off my subject there a little, but I think it is high time for Christianity to admit their sins. G-D did not cause the Holocaust to bring the Jews back to Zion. G-D passed his merciful hand over one third to bring his people back to Zion, and the job is not finished yet. And so, it was that fence that got built so high and so wide they could no longer look over it and see the Torah of G-D on the other side. The fence was so filled with added laws that the wonderful and delightful Torah could hardly be seen. If we had been there and know what we now know, what would we have said to the Jewish authorities? I think we would have said repent for the kingdom of G-D is at hand. And what would we tell them to repent of? I think for breaking the commandments of G-D by their traditions. Did the Almighty brilliant G-D need any man to improve on his Torah? I say no. the prophets said not, and Yehsua said no. Ns I will bet all on this list will say no, G-D got it right the first. Upon that generation and upon that generation only was the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah the son of Berchiah required. It is sad that when a Prophet like Moses is sent and the leadership shut their ears and close their eyes. I think the lesson is clear. G-D needs no fence around his Torah that clouds the pathway to righteousness. One last point, Christianity has built their own fence with false doctrines to many to count. If G-D was displeased with that generation to whom the prophet Moses spoke would come, then how might G-D look upon the false doctrines in Christianity, and what might he do about that? The great tribulation is coming upon the nations that brutally murdered innocent men women and children for no other reason than that they were Jews. There is a price to pay and it may be by their own blood if they refuse to come out if her. Oh one last point. If it was that fence that Sha'ul excelled many of his contemporaries in and it was the fence he tore down and destroyed,,then maybe he ought to be seen as on the same page with Moses as the prophet Moses said would come. Just think about, I could not ask for more. CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/61534461/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 17:07:02 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:07:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Please remove from list In-Reply-To: <340750.35760.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA93DD4922146F-1564-1B78@mblk-d16.sysops.aol.com> Hey Tracy, ???? What do we need to click on to get Ross to write more????? :-)?? :-)? ??? Your pal in the Big Apple, ?????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list All who may not know this, take note. ? You can disable receiving emails @? http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/options/dialogue go down to Mail delivery and click on Disabled ? Then, you can?follow the threads at your convenience just by logging in @ http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/? and clicking on Thread. They are sorted by Month. ? Tracy --- On Tue, 6/3/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 2:18 PM Dear Tammy: ? I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope?Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. ? Clyde? Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/2614f1ae/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jun 3 17:20:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:20:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... In-Reply-To: <8CA93D6F92FB250-C18-6C9@webmail-me16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Shalom Hanoch, Thanks for this! I can see why these verses jumped at you! There are so many sparks flying around in your head (in a good way), that these verses made a deep connection.while we look ahead to the future when HaShem will raise the fallen Tabernacle of David all will be sweetness and peace, there is this thing in the middle that we are trying to sort thru.what do we do and how do we get thru it.? Answers are beginning to come, but when we look at Israel and the current state of affairs, there is pain.May HaShem guide our paths as we take comfort in the promise that although there is a sifting going on and many of us are a part of it "that not one grain will be lost!" Baruch Hashem, Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 4:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Shalom L'Kulchem, I was just reading from Amos HaNavi, the Prophet Amos. I've included the last seven verses, there's a lot to consider here....they kind of jumped off the page at me.... Hanoch "Behold the eyes of the L-rd G-d are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will utterly destroy it from off the face of the earth; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Ya'aqov, says the L-rd. For, lo, I will command and I will sift the house of Yisra'el among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake or meet us. On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and repair its breaches; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, who are called by my name, says the L-rd who does this. Behold, days are coming, says the L-rd, when the ploughman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring back the captivity of my people of Yisra'al, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink their wine; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked put of their land which I have given the, says the L-rd they G-d. " Amos 9:8-15 _____ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/1920670d/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jun 3 17:40:53 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:40:53 -0500 Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Clyde, Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul. I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list. I think I can assure you that Tammy's reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back. It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend. BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden. One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain. When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful! Back to Paul, my opinion. Although I still do not agree regarding Paul's teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere. He probably was sincere. The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah ("old law" as they called it) was still in effect. I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to 'explain it away' this way and that, but to no effect. Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah.and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don't see that he separates written from oral Torah here.he calls the Torah the "old law" and makes no distinctions that I can see). * Calling following Torah being "under the curse of the law" with no grace involved * Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being "a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith" in chapter 3, * Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are "under the law," to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being "in bondage", born of "the flesh" * While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the "Jerusalem above," being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit I am sorry, but I just couldn't read anymore. Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me.it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy. Only Hashem can be the judge of that. I don't mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true. I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the "lies of the fathers," that I so grievously was a part of for so many years. But I have repented many times in tears, done t'shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again. Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don't have anything else to add beyond what I have said.and maybe I have said too much.but I just poured out what was on my heart.I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention. With deep respect and love, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/d68ac234/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 17:47:03 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Please remove from list In-Reply-To: <8CA93DD4922146F-1564-1B78@mblk-d16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <731245.45947.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hanoch,   We probably could click ourselves down to his place and start mowing his yard and dress up like him and go into work for him a couple of days per week  O' and we'd have to help him with all of those wonderful children of his. That would probably free him up some.   Your Pal down in East Tennessee,   Tracy   --- On Tue, 6/3/08, youngbarzel at aol.com <youngbarzel at aol.com> wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com <youngbarzel at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Please remove from list To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:07 PM Hey Tracy,      What do we need to click on to get Ross to write more???   :-)   :-)      Your pal in the Big Apple,                    Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list All who may not know this, take note.   You can disable receiving emails @  http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/options/dialogue go down to Mail delivery and click on Disabled   Then, you can follow the threads at your convenience just by logging in @ http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/  and clicking on Thread. They are sorted by Month.   Tracy --- On Tue, 6/3/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> wrote: From: CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 2:18 PM Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde  Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/b5404597/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jun 3 18:25:27 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:25:27 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] 70 weeks determined upon your people.] Message-ID: <4845D2E7.2020707@westnet.com.au> Shalom Clyde, thank you very much for your thought provoking post. I thoroughly enjoyed the read. You made some very pertinent points that are so true and that need to be addressed honestly by the Christian world. For this Clyde I take my hat off to you. Well said. However it was Yeshua that breached the fence.Note that I used the word "breached" The fence does have a purpose albeit what we might perceive as negative. HaShem will always transform what was meant for evil into good. Remember the story of Yosef. So the prophet like unto Moshe is Yeshua not Paul. When Paul spoke please note that he quotes from the Septuagint because he spoke to a Hellenized audience. Yeshua on the other hand spoke to a Hebrew Audience. The church has found it easy to superimpose , twist , change, and even falsely build on the sayings of Paul or however fraudulently wrote in his name. Yeshua on the other hand has been mission impossible for the Hellenized church. Because he spoke as a Jew in a Hebrew context. To understand the sayings of Yeshua one must be acquainted with the Jewish mindset of the Hebrew Torah, the Hebrew Prophets and the Hebrew Writings. These things cannot be interpolated by the world of Yavan or Greece. Please read my post on Yavan. To them these matters seem small, foolish and insignificant. But they are the ORACLES OF HASHEM that were a gift to humanity through the suffering servant Yisrael / Yeshua, none the less. When time permits I will write more in depth on these very good issues that you brought up in the spirit of love. Excellent news on the arrival of your golden puppy. I am so pleased for you and Ruth. What is his name ? Shalom v'Ahavat JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] 70 weeks determined upon your people. Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:44:29 EDT Size: 16253 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b495d144/attachment.eml From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 18:25:35 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <427375.12672.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Betty,   In my opinion, the Galatian Epistle cannot be understood unless we can place it in its historical context first. I first began to see through some of these things by reading the book Jesus The Pharisee by Rabbi Falk. Joseph Good has been teaching on these things lately.   IV. YERUSHALMI SHABBAT 1:4   [A] THESE ARE SOME OF THE LAWS WHICH THEY STATED IN THE UPPER ROOM OF HANANIAH B.HEZEKIAH B. GURION WHEN THEY WENT UP TO VISIT HIM. THEY TOOK A VOTE, AND THE HOUSE OF SHAMMAI OUTNUMBERED THE HOUSE OF HILLEL. AND EIGHTEEN RULES DID THEY DECREE ON THAT VERY DAY.   1. I:1: And that day was as harsh for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was made [T.Shab. 1:16]. ........         This meeting occurred in the approximate year 20 C.E. The reason that the House of Shammai outnumbered the House of Hillel was because that the Zealot Party [which supported Shammai], had just murdered numerous members of the House of Hillel. Notice that this is just a few years prior to the ministries of Yeshua and Yochanon. Notice the language that the Jerusalem Talmud uses to describe that day ?comparing it to the golden calf!!!!       These 18 Decrees were for the purpose of separating Jews from Gentiles ?not allowed to eat with non-Jews or even go into their house - regardless if they were Torah-Observant G-d-fearers. Shammai considered a "Noachide" as on the way to eternal life - but, he cannot be "saved" unless he was circumcised and became a Jew. Hillel held that the "Noachides" did have eternal life and did not have to convert. Imagine the explosiveness of this issue during that time.       Paul?s doctrinal battle was with the Shammai Pharisees/Zealot/Priesthood, which controlled Judea during the first century.       Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved  To be "under the curse of the law" is to be under "the curse" which the law prescribes for disobedience. Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, The Torah [by promises, prophecies, types and shadows to be interpreted in due time] leads us to The Faith OF Yeshua/Hillel/Moses. The Law was and is "a tutor" that brings us the The Mashiach, the Resurrection, and the Age to Come.   Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit           --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:40 PM Dear Clyde ,   Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul.   I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list.  I think I can assure you that Tammy?s reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back.   It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend.  BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden.  One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain.  When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful!   Back to Paul, my opinion? Although I still do not agree regarding Paul?s teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere.  He probably was sincere.  The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah (?old law? as they called it) was still in effect.    I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to ?explain it away? this way and that, but to no effect.  Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah?and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don?t see that he separates written from oral Torah here?he calls the Torah the ?old law? and makes no distinctions that I can see).   Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit   I am sorry, but I just couldn?t read anymore.  Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me?it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy.  Only Hashem can be the judge of that.   I don?t mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true.  I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the ?lies of the fathers,? that I so grievously was a part of for so many years.  But I have repented many times in tears, done t?shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again.   Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don?t have anything else to add beyond what I have said?and maybe I have said too much?but I just poured out what was on my heart?I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention.   With deep respect and love,   Betty/Elisheva     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde        From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde  Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/6683d38f/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 18:29:00 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: <427375.12672.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <376172.61398.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I accidentally pressed send before I was ready to send this. I hadn't gotten all of it layed out properly. Anyhow, I'll try and finish it. --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com> wrote: From: Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:25 PM Dear Betty,   In my opinion, the Galatian Epistle cannot be understood unless we can place it in its historical context first. I first began to see through some of these things by reading the book Jesus The Pharisee by Rabbi Falk. Joseph Good has been teaching on these things lately.   IV. YERUSHALMI SHABBAT 1:4   [A] THESE ARE SOME OF THE LAWS WHICH THEY STATED IN THE UPPER ROOM OF HANANIAH B.HEZEKIAH B. GURION WHEN THEY WENT UP TO VISIT HIM. THEY TOOK A VOTE, AND THE HOUSE OF SHAMMAI OUTNUMBERED THE HOUSE OF HILLEL. AND EIGHTEEN RULES DID THEY DECREE ON THAT VERY DAY.   1. I:1: And that day was as harsh for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was made [T.Shab. 1:16]. ........         This meeting occurred in the approximate year 20 C.E. The reason that the House of Shammai outnumbered the House of Hillel was because that the Zealot Party [which supported Shammai], had just murdered numerous members of the House of Hillel. Notice that this is just a few years prior to the ministries of Yeshua and Yochanon. Notice the language that the Jerusalem Talmud uses to describe that day ?comparing it to the golden calf!!!!       These 18 Decrees were for the purpose of separating Jews from Gentiles ?not allowed to eat with non-Jews or even go into their house - regardless if they were Torah-Observant G-d-fearers. Shammai considered a "Noachide" as on the way to eternal life - but, he cannot be "saved" unless he was circumcised and became a Jew. Hillel held that the "Noachides" did have eternal life and did not have to convert. Imagine the explosiveness of this issue during that time.       Paul?s doctrinal battle was with the Shammai Pharisees/Zealot/Priesthood, which controlled Judea during the first century.       Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved  To be "under the curse of the law" is to be under "the curse" which the law prescribes for disobedience. Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, The Torah [by promises, prophecies, types and shadows to be interpreted in due time] leads us to The Faith OF Yeshua/Hillel/Moses. The Law was and is "a tutor" that brings us the The Mashiach, the Resurrection, and the Age to Come.   Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit           --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:40 PM Dear Clyde ,   Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul.   I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list.  I think I can assure you that Tammy?s reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back.   It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend.  BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden.  One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain.  When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful!   Back to Paul, my opinion? Although I still do not agree regarding Paul?s teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere.  He probably was sincere.  The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah (?old law? as they called it) was still in effect.    I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to ?explain it away? this way and that, but to no effect.  Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah?and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don?t see that he separates written from oral Torah here?he calls the Torah the ?old law? and makes no distinctions that I can see).   Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit   I am sorry, but I just couldn?t read anymore.  Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me?it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy.  Only Hashem can be the judge of that.   I don?t mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true.  I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the ?lies of the fathers,? that I so grievously was a part of for so many years.  But I have repented many times in tears, done t?shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again.   Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don?t have anything else to add beyond what I have said?and maybe I have said too much?but I just poured out what was on my heart?I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention.   With deep respect and love,   Betty/Elisheva     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde        From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde  Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/fa0a8018/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jun 3 18:30:31 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:30:31 -0500 Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: <427375.12672.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Tracey. Shalom and Blessings, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:26 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Dear Betty, In my opinion, the Galatian Epistle cannot be understood unless we can place it in its historical context first. I first began to see through some of these things by reading the book Jesus The Pharisee by Rabbi Falk. Joseph Good has been teaching on these things lately. IV. YERUSHALMI SHABBAT 1:4 [A] THESE ARE SOME OF THE LAWS WHICH THEY STATED IN THE UPPER ROOM OF HANANIAH B.HEZEKIAH B. GURION WHEN THEY WENT UP TO VISIT HIM. THEY TOOK A VOTE, AND THE HOUSE OF SHAMMAI OUTNUMBERED THE HOUSE OF HILLEL. AND EIGHTEEN RULES DID THEY DECREE ON THAT VERY DAY. 1. I:1: And that day was as harsh for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was made [T.Shab. 1:16]. ........ This meeting occurred in the approximate year 20 C.E. The reason that the House of Shammai outnumbered the House of Hillel was because that the Zealot Party [which supported Shammai], had just murdered numerous members of the House of Hillel. Notice that this is just a few years prior to the ministries of Yeshua and Yochanon. Notice the language that the Jerusalem Talmud uses to describe that day -comparing it to the golden calf!!!! These 18 Decrees were for the purpose of separating Jews from Gentiles -not allowed to eat with non-Jews or even go into their house - regardless if they were Torah-Observant G-d-fearers. Shammai considered a "Noachide" as on the way to eternal life - but, he cannot be "saved" unless he was circumcised and became a Jew. Hillel held that the "Noachides" did have eternal life and did not have to convert. Imagine the explosiveness of this issue during that time. Paul's doctrinal battle was with the Shammai Pharisees/Zealot/Priesthood, which controlled Judea during the first century. * Calling following Torah being "under the curse of the law" with no grace involved To be "under the curse of the law" is to be under "the curse" which the law prescribes for disobedience. * Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being "a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith" in chapter 3, The Torah [by promises, prophecies, types and shadows to be interpreted in due time] leads us to The Faith OF Yeshua/Hillel/Moses. The Law was and is "a tutor" that brings us the The Mashiach, the Resurrection, and the Age to Come. Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are "under the law," to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being "in bondage", born of "the flesh" * While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the "Jerusalem above," being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:40 PM Dear Clyde , Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul. I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list. I think I can assure you that Tammy's reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back. It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend. BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden. One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain. When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful! Back to Paul, my opinion. Although I still do not agree regarding Paul's teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere. He probably was sincere. The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah ("old law" as they called it) was still in effect. I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to 'explain it away' this way and that, but to no effect. Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah.and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don't see that he separates written from oral Torah here.he calls the Torah the "old law" and makes no distinctions that I can see). * Calling following Torah being "under the curse of the law" with no grace involved * Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being "a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith" in chapter 3, * Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are "under the law," to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being "in bondage", born of "the flesh" * While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the "Jerusalem above," being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit I am sorry, but I just couldn't read anymore. Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me.it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy. Only Hashem can be the judge of that. I don't mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true. I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the "lies of the fathers," that I so grievously was a part of for so many years. But I have repented many times in tears, done t'shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again. Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don't have anything else to add beyond what I have said.and maybe I have said too much.but I just poured out what was on my heart.I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention. With deep respect and love, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/05fae344/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jun 3 18:35:04 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:35:04 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos...] Message-ID: <4845D528.4050406@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/31a608f6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:21:51 -0400 Size: 8980 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/31a608f6/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Jun 3 18:38:02 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:38:02 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Please remove from list] Message-ID: <4845D5DA.5060009@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/c00e1e24/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:07:02 -0400 Size: 10118 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/c00e1e24/attachment.eml From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 18:40:25 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:40:25 EDT Subject: Fwd: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Message-ID: Dear Betty: you can never offend me, I know your heart. But Betty I groan in my spirit in how those anti-Torah Greeks have so twisted the truth that it lingers even when we try so hard to get their deception out of our minds. You are safe Betty, its those with sincere hearts and lies in their heads that concern me. Dear Betty I would ask you one question. What do you think if it was not the fence around the Torah that broke the Torah, that was the cause for G-D to send Judah into exile? And following Torah was not the curse, the curse was for not following Torah. Was it the Torah that took my life, no Betty it was my sin. Betty I would not hurt you for the world. There are some on the list that I think are getting what I'm saying. There are others not on this list that are beginning to see my story as valid. It is those who would argue with Ross and his teaching I'm going after I wish I could have a full two-day seminar workshop to go over every detail that I believe G-D has opened my mind to see. Again you are safe, but billions of Christians are not. It is for them that G-D has lead me to fix the Paul they think said what he did not say. Betty don't agonize over what I might write. If I thought for one second that I was wrong I would cast Paul as far as the east is from the west. I see what I see, some will believe me and some will not. Who will and who will not is not my job. If I cause agony for some on the list that are already safe, then tell me what to write and I will cease with my story on the list, and continue to tell my story in other places. Woe is I if I don't tell it. The email is not the place to go through the 4 points you raised, and Betty I would take a beating rather than even begin to debate with you. Just remember I know your heart, and I love what I see. I don't mean to imply that I have ever last detail perfect, but I do mean to imply I have the overall correct. Clyde , **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/473b5060/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:40:53 -0500 Size: 26824 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/473b5060/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 18:40:49 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <650125.32537.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Betty,   In my opinion, the Galatian Epistle cannot be understood unless we can place it in its historical context first. I first began to see through some of these things by reading the book Jesus The Pharisee by Rabbi Falk. Joseph Good has been teaching on these things lately.   IV. YERUSHALMI SHABBAT 1:4   [A] THESE ARE SOME OF THE LAWS WHICH THEY STATED IN THE UPPER ROOM OF HANANIAH B.HEZEKIAH B. GURION WHEN THEY WENT UP TO VISIT HIM. THEY TOOK A VOTE, AND THE HOUSE OF SHAMMAI OUTNUMBERED THE HOUSE OF HILLEL. AND EIGHTEEN RULES DID THEY DECREE ON THAT VERY DAY.   1. I:1: And that day was as harsh for Israel as the day on which the golden calf was made [T.Shab. 1:16]. ........         This meeting occurred in the approximate year 20 C.E. The reason that the House of Shammai outnumbered the House of Hillel was because that the Zealot Party [which supported Shammai], had just murdered numerous members of the House of Hillel. Notice that this is just a few years prior to the ministries of Yeshua and Yochanon. Notice the language that the Jerusalem Talmud uses to describe that day ?comparing it to the golden calf!!!!       These 18 Decrees were for the purpose of separating Jews from Gentiles ?not allowed to eat with non-Jews or even go into their house - regardless if they were Torah-Observant G-d-fearers. Shammai considered a "Noachide" as on the way to eternal life - but, he cannot be "saved" unless he was circumcised and became a Jew. Hillel held that the "Noachides" did have eternal life and did not have to convert. Imagine the explosiveness of this issue during that time.       Paul?s doctrinal battle was with the Shammai Pharisees/Zealot/Priesthood, which controlled Judea during the first century.   In accord with Paul's arguments, they were saying that Abram was not "saved" until he was circumcised and became Abraham. Circumcision was for becoming a part of the "National Priesthood". It was not for salvation.       Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved  To be "under the curse of the law" is to be under "the curse" which the law prescribes for disobedience. Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, The Torah [by promises, prophecies, types and shadows to be interpreted in due time] leads us to The Faith OF Yeshua/Hillel/Moses. The Law was and is "a tutor" that brings us to the The Mashiach, the Resurrection, and the Age to Come. According to the Torah, we are to believe in HaShem, Moshe, The Prophets, and The Mashiach.   Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit    The Historical Setting shows that he was talking about those who were of the Shammai/Zealot/Priesthood described above, which he           was talking about. The Faith OF Yeshua/Hillel/Moses/Paul was being demonstrated before their eyes. --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote: From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:40 PM Dear Clyde ,   Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul.   I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list.  I think I can assure you that Tammy?s reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back.   It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend.  BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden.  One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain.  When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful!   Back to Paul, my opinion? Although I still do not agree regarding Paul?s teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere.  He probably was sincere.  The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah (?old law? as they called it) was still in effect.    I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to ?explain it away? this way and that, but to no effect.  Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah?and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don?t see that he separates written from oral Torah here?he calls the Torah the ?old law? and makes no distinctions that I can see).   Calling following Torah being ?under the curse of the law? with no grace involved Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being ?a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith? in chapter 3, Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are ?under the law,? to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being ?in bondage?, born of ?the flesh?  While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the ?Jerusalem above,? being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit   I am sorry, but I just couldn?t read anymore.  Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me?it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy.  Only Hashem can be the judge of that.   I don?t mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true.  I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the ?lies of the fathers,? that I so grievously was a part of for so many years.  But I have repented many times in tears, done t?shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again.   Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don?t have anything else to add beyond what I have said?and maybe I have said too much?but I just poured out what was on my heart?I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention.   With deep respect and love,   Betty/Elisheva     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde        From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list   Dear Tammy:   I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions.   Clyde  Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/55f08d61/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 3 18:50:53 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:50:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... In-Reply-To: <4845D528.4050406@westnet.com.au> References: <4845D528.4050406@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <8CA93EBCB2ACE54-1E20-A65@WEBMAIL-DC11.sysops.aol.com> Toda Joe....I really appreciate the comments as well as the compliments.? Back to work... ??????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 7:35 pm Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos...] Shalom Hanoch, The Ruach of HaShem is really stirring in your heart . I once again feel the burning love in your heart for your lost brothers and sisters from Beit Yosef / Efrayim. Reading this scripture that you posted was like a Bat Kol from Shamayim. HaShem is speaking to us through the yearning and love that you have in your heart. And because of this I stand humbly before HaShem. Todah brother Yehudi. JOE. Attached Message From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] from the Prophet Amos... Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:21:51 -0400 Shalom L'Kulchem, ? ??? I was just reading from Amos HaNavi, the Prophet Amos.? I've included the last seven verses, there's a lot to consider here....they kind of jumped off the page at me.... ?????????? Hanoch "Behold the eyes of the L-rd G-d are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will utterly destroy it from off the face of the earth; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Ya'aqov, says the L-rd.? For, lo, I will command and I will sift the house of Yisra'el among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.? All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake or meet us.? On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and repair its breaches; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, who are called by my? name, says the L-rd who does this. Behold, days are coming, says the L-rd, when the ploughman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.? And I will bring back the captivity of my people of Yisra'al, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink their wine; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.? And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked put of their land which I have given the, says the L-rd they G-d. " ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Amos 9:8-15 Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/1d17bdb6/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 18:54:36 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:54:36 EDT Subject: Fwd: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Message-ID: Stacy, than you so much for this, all we want is the truth, the truth of G-D and nothing but that truth. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/48c280da/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tracy Osborne Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Size: 32627 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/48c280da/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 3 19:00:32 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:00:32 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: [Dialogue] 70 weeks determined upon your people.] Message-ID: Thank you Joe for you kind comments. Please read what I wrote to Betty the wonderful lady with a heart of gold. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/40b7f616/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] 70 weeks determined upon your people.] Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:25:27 +1000 Size: 21204 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/40b7f616/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 19:01:36 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <251693.42319.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Clyde.   Tracy --- On Tue, 6/3/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> wrote: From: CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> Subject: Fwd: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 6:54 PM Stacy, than you so much for this, all we want is the truth, the truth of G-D and nothing but that truth.   Clyde Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/3f7d11a3/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 19:26:40 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah Message-ID: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Something to consider:   Clyde or Steve, I don't have time to write this very well, so please continue it if you like.   The Spirit that was upon Eliyahu fell upon Elisha as he watched Eliyahu ascend into heaven.   Yochanon ben Zachariah (the Baptist) came in "the spirit and power of EliYah" according to Luke chapter 1. Yeshua ben David continued in that same Spirit, continuing the same role and and extending the mission. The Spirit and Power of EliYah was upon him.   The Spirit that was upon Yeshua (EliYah) was poured out on his Talmidim in Jerusalem on Shavuot (EliSha) after they watched him ascend into heaven. So that the Spirit of EliYah rested on EliSha - Yeshua's Talmidim.   Shavuot is approaching!!!   Tracy         -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/5a629ca8/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:48:47 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:48:47 -0400 Subject: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Betty, I can see exactly what you are saying, and I really cannot see any defense for Paul's harsh words. If his feud was with the followers of Shammai, why didn't he lash out at them? He lashed out at Torah, and he has mislead countless millions who turned their backs on HaSHem's Torah and His people, causing his followers to condemn G-d's people to hell and to consider His precious Torah a curse. Yes, the Torah lists the blessings for following it, and the curses for not following it. Those are cause and effect, but by no means negate the grace of G-d toward his people when they come to him in repentance for having disobeyed His teaching! Paul's arguments are based upon redundancy. G-d already shed His grace upon us. He gave it freely. No one had to die to appropriate it. The Torah is the mark we aim for. G-d's grace is, was and always has been our hope. We are not doomed to the "curse" as Paul asserts because we love and follow HaSHem's Torah. That is a lie. That IS one of the lies our fathers inherited. I love and appreciate you, Clyde and you, Tracy, for all your hard work on Paul's behalf, but I can't see his vindication. It would thrill me to see him vindicated, but I simply cannot see where he merits it. Paul had some fine teachings, but this is not among them. Thank you for speaking what was on you heart, Betty (it is on mine too), Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: Clyde[Dialogue] Please remove from list & Paul Dear Clyde, Changing the thread to reflect additional comments on Paul. I thought I would answer this one for you as Tammy might not receive it if she has already removed herself from the list. I think I can assure you that Tammy's reason for wanting to be removed from the list was simply as she said and had nothing to do with what you wrote in your email because Dan Tabor had written the same thing some time back. It was as always loving and carefully written so as to try not to offend. BTW, I am so glad that you and Ruth have gotten another little golden puppy for yourselves and your other golden. One dog can never take the place of another, but certainly can help ease the pain. When our Sheltie died, we had to get two Yorkie puppies to take his place and they have been absolutely wonderful! Back to Paul, my opinion. Although I still do not agree regarding Paul's teachings as I see them, (the Galations example among others still holds for me as being in opposition to Torah), I am not making a judgment saying that he was insincere. He probably was sincere. The very first thing that I went to was the book of Galations when someone challenged me by saying that the Torah ("old law" as they called it) was still in effect. I agonized and agonized over this for a long period of time, trying to 'explain it away' this way and that, but to no effect. Finally I came to the opinion years ago that there is just too much in that particular book alone that goes against the grain of Torah.and if Paul indeed taught and said these things, then where does that put him? Here are just a few examples (and I don't see that he separates written from oral Torah here.he calls the Torah the "old law" and makes no distinctions that I can see). a.. Calling following Torah being "under the curse of the law" with no grace involved b.. Demeaning and relegating the Torah simply as a law being "a tutor to bring us to faith Christ and justify us by faith" in chapter 3, c.. Comparing those who follow Torah which he terms, those who are "under the law," to Hagar and Mt. Sinai and being "in bondage", born of "the flesh" d.. While those including himself (Paul) and his brethren are compared to the "Jerusalem above," being free and the children of promise as was Isaac, and those born of the spirit I am sorry, but I just couldn't read anymore. Reading this is absolutely gut-wrenching for me.it makes me want to cry out and weep and scream at the same time, because in my opinion it comes very close to blasphemy. Only Hashem can be the judge of that. I don't mean to be unduly harsh and I am not critical by nature, just very passionate about what I believe to be true. I used to believe all of this and it breaks my heart to now read it again because I believe it to be so anti-Torah and part of the "lies of the fathers," that I so grievously was a part of for so many years. But I have repented many times in tears, done t'shuvah, and really do not want to re visit it again. Anyone who is interested may certainly join in this discussion, but as for me, I don't have anything else to add beyond what I have said.and maybe I have said too much.but I just poured out what was on my heart.I do hope that I have not offended you or anyone else on the list, as it certainly was not my intention. With deep respect and love, Betty/Elisheva -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 2:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Please remove from list Dear Tammy: I sure hope my email below was not the one that tipped the scales for your wanting to be removed from the list I do hope Ross can find someway to separate chit chat from the more serious discussions. Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/07350625/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 00:16:45 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:16:45 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Calling for PRs / reports In-Reply-To: <011001c8bf56$b1c2de90$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> References: <011001c8bf56$b1c2de90$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <200806040516.m545Gi95026023@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080603/4c040476/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Wed Jun 4 01:19:11 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 01:19:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah References: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09b801c8c60a$e7f75da0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Tracy, I really like that....I had never seen the parralling that you see. I like that!!!! Will have to meditate on it a bit...but it IS EXCITING with the prospect of Shavout coming up! Here I am HaShem.....fall on me/us! Loy ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:26 PM Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah Something to consider: Clyde or Steve, I don't have time to write this very well, so please continue it if you like. The Spirit that was upon Eliyahu fell upon Elisha as he watched Eliyahu ascend into heaven. Yochanon ben Zachariah (the Baptist) came in "the spirit and power of EliYah" according to Luke chapter 1. Yeshua ben David continued in that same Spirit, continuing the same role and and extending the mission. The Spirit and Power of EliYah was upon him. The Spirit that was upon Yeshua (EliYah) was poured out on his Talmidim in Jerusalem on Shavuot (EliSha) after they watched him ascend into heaven. So that the Spirit of EliYah rested on EliSha - Yeshua's Talmidim. Shavuot is approaching!!! Tracy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/9d98c101/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 02:30:12 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:30:12 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah In-Reply-To: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806040730.m547U8KN030045@mail2507.carrierzone.com> Tracy, and All, Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have been wanting to write a note about this, but have no time,due to other pressing matters. Never the less, this is so important that I have to write a few lines to the list. It is just a simple answer, and hope others will add to it. At 05:26 PM 6/3/2008, you wrote: >Something to consider. Clyde or Steve, I don't have time to write >this very well, so please continue it if you like: > >The Spirit that was upon Eliyahu > >fell upon Elisha as he watched Eliyahu ascend into heaven. > >Yochanon ben Zachariah (the Baptist) came in "the spirit and power >of EliYah" according to Luke chapter 1. Yeshua ben David continued >in that same Spirit, continuing the same role and and extending the >mission. The Spirit and Power of EliYah was upon him. > >The Spirit that was upon Yeshua (EliYah) was poured out on his >Talmidim in Jerusalem on Shavuot (EliSha) after they watched him >ascend into heaven. So that the Spirit of EliYah rested on EliSha - >Yeshua's Talmidim. > >Shavuot is approaching!!! > >Tracy From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 02:33:36 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:33:36 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah In-Reply-To: <200806040730.m547U8KN030045@mail2507.carrierzone.com> References: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200806040730.m547U8KN030045@mail2507.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200806040733.m547XWdJ019014@mail116c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, Somehow at 12:30 AM, I sent out this incomplete email by accident. I apologize. I hope to continue it tomorrow. Steve At 12:30 AM 6/4/2008, you wrote: >Tracy, and All, >Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have been wanting >to write a note about this, but have no time,due to other pressing >matters. Never the less, this is so important that I have to write >a few lines to the list. It is just a simple answer, and hope others >will add to it. > > >At 05:26 PM 6/3/2008, you wrote: > >>Something to consider. Clyde or Steve, I don't have time to write >>this very well, so please continue it if you like: >> >>The Spirit that was upon Eliyahu >> >>fell upon Elisha as he watched Eliyahu ascend into heaven. >> >>Yochanon ben Zachariah (the Baptist) came in "the spirit and power >>of EliYah" according to Luke chapter 1. Yeshua ben David continued >>in that same Spirit, continuing the same role and and extending the >>mission. The Spirit and Power of EliYah was upon him. >> >>The Spirit that was upon Yeshua (EliYah) was poured out on his >>Talmidim in Jerusalem on Shavuot (EliSha) after they watched him >>ascend into heaven. So that the Spirit of EliYah rested on EliSha - >>Yeshua's Talmidim. >> >>Shavuot is approaching!!! >> >>Tracy > >_______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jun 4 02:41:30 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:41:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 Message-ID: <61A24D39242A4C979CEA68B147D8B199@bettygivin> "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 17:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other.from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to 'do' Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy.and here I am.when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing. Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn't asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one.and so I decided to look it up.and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ."May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share.and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse." "Be still and know that I am HaShem." Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/c57e0186/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jun 4 02:46:59 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:46:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] FW:Oops... Psalms 16:8 Message-ID: <7B3950079F7C4E318F658B33CA90CEDB@bettygivin> I as waning.made an error and have corrected it below. It is Psalms 16:8. Sorry for the double emails! _____ From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:42 AM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 16:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other.from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to 'do' Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy.and here I am.when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing. Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn't asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one.and so I decided to look it up.and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ."May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share.and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse." "Be still and know that I am HaShem." Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/631f1e6d/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Jun 4 03:04:32 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:04:32 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FW:Oops... Psalms 16:8] Message-ID: <48464C90.8000307@westnet.com.au> Shalom Betty, The love of HaShem is being perfected in you. I sense the yearning in your heart. This is something that I hope and pray that all members of this group take to heart. We dialogue and dialogue and dialogue . Sweet Betty thank you for the simplicity and sincerity of your message and your obedience to HaShem in getting up from your bed to post what He had put on your heart to share. Thank you for your gentle touch. Baruch HaShem. Nighty night and pleasant dreams :-* :-* Shalom v'Ahavat JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] FW:Oops... Psalms 16:8 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:46:59 -0500 Size: 14302 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/00d05fea/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 4 03:51:18 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:51:18 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 In-Reply-To: <61A24D39242A4C979CEA68B147D8B199@bettygivin> Message-ID: <060420080851.23803.48465782000D66DB00005CFB22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Betty, It seems I'm up as well. His will is certain to be accomplished and all we have to do is keep Him before us to know our place in it. Shalom sister, all will be well. His strong right arm surrounds us. Laila Tov. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- ?I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.? Psalms 17:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other?from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to ?do? Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy?and here I am?when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing? Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn?t asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one?and so I decided to look it up?and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ??May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share?and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse?? ?Be still and know that I am HaShem.? Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/3c5a0962/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 08:31:14 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:31:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Message-ID: Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/82af1f64/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Wed Jun 4 09:46:22 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:46:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverseHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn1"[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. HYPERLINK "http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002" \nWatch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref1"[1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/553c3db1/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 12:50:36 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:50:36 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@gar ye580dc5aa6> References: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <200806041758.m54HwCow011237@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/4a79e832/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 16:08:14 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:08:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah In-Reply-To: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <286256.82730.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806042108.m54L8F8C014385@pmail2550.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/d574ca02/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 20:27:26 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:27:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Message-ID: Someone asked what is the implication of this, and how might it effect each of us? Well let me suggest to each of us, and a million like us, that have by the grace of G-D been called out of Babylon for a witness of the name of YHVH the only True G-D. We have been given eyes that can see, ears that can hear, not because we are better than the billions that have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear. Somehow the teaching of Ross must be put on video and spread far and wide. The fig tree is blooming in spite of the government in Israel - the time was not right in the first century for Judah to take her G-D given role, and the fig tree that was to early to have fruit was cursed signifying this. But it did not mean that all fig trees were cursed. Judah went in to exile, and according to the Word of G-D never to be repeated My fiends it is more than our just getting to Israel, it is that for a remnant of all of Jacobs children, G-D has gotten part of the children there already, and that is prove he will get the rest there sooner than later. The greatest deception since there has been a nation has already occurred, falling away from the truth is not a future event it is history, and billions are unaware. they believe what they have been taught and are marrying and giving in marriage and continuing to believe the lies they have been told. Loved ones friends and billions we do not even know worship the greatest idol in all the world. Somebody has to inform them lest they go through the fire of the great tribulation upon the nations that have punished the Jews. Joseph in the hands of Ephraim have punished their brother Judah, the role of the ancient patriarch Joseph has been reversed. Where the brothers punished Joseph the roles have reversed in history and Joseph in the hands of Ephraim has done the punishing. When Ephraim knows and understand who he is, he will weep as all of us did, when we came to know. We are called as witnesses to shout it from the housetops and anywhere we can fins one two or a hundred that will hear us. Billion are going to worship that image thinking it is Jesus whom they think is G-D, perhaps just as we did before G-D opened out eyes. It's going to get bloody friends, vengeance is mine thus saith the LORD. But if we fail to speak up every chance we get in every place we can the blood will be on our heads. This is the real thing coming down my friends, we didn't discover the truth, the truth discovered us. But now that the truth of G-D discovered us we have an obligation that is bigger than anyone of us. You all have observed the greatest idol of all the world that does not speak, but dear friends not very long in the future the idol that will speak and confirm the billions are telling the truth and we and a million like us are telling the lies, Greater deception has never occurred when evil is proclaimed as good and good proclaimed as evil. Think about it, persecuted because we claim Jesus is not G-D, its coming my friend and perhaps much sooner than we might imagine. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/81aa5331/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Gary Arvidson" Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:46:22 -0400 Size: 28975 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/81aa5331/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Wed Jun 4 22:31:07 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 23:31:07 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: [UILIST] Obama on Israel Message-ID: Well, Hanoch, a king rose up that did not know Joseph. Check his background carefully, and then ask yourself, why did hamas endorse him? Can they see what Americans cannot? Beware my friends. CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/a715f813/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [UILIST] Obama on Israel Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:59:57 EDT Size: 4581 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/a715f813/attachment.mht From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Jun 5 01:38:27 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:38:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Video/Ross References: Message-ID: <009c01c8c6d6$c34921b0$6600a8c0@davesbook> Mr. Clyde and all, You wrote, "Somehow the teaching of Ross must be put on video and spread far and wide" At dusk today I saw one of the most inspiring new moon slivers (probably 2 or 3 days old), and since the local roots of faith "gang" have been doing some observing of the new moon, I rang up Ross on the cell phone. As one that believes that nothing happens by chance.....Ross was out with his kids doing some errands and answered the phone "do you see that moon"? Well.....as we were talking the conversation moved from the moon to the dialogue list......I was asking if he had read the comments by Hanock and Tracy about coming here to "cut your grass" so you would have more time to comment on the dialogue. Then I mentioned to him that I was thinking about getting on the list and try to drum up support for getting the Sunday Shul teaching out in video. Then I get home and read the post that Clyde wrote....and thought well why not......so......(here goes). We have most of the Audio gear and computers, ( Brian Jones is working with us to utilize what we have), so what we need to do is figure out exactly what camera model/type we need and get it! ....(we need a simple digital camera (cam) that can "stream live" and has external microphone "jacks") So far I have done some research on this and to be straight forward with everyone.....It is hard to figure out (for me) exactly what model/brand would be best for us......so I invite you guys to put our collective ideas together and get the Sunday Shul teaching on video. As a side note we do open a program that allows you to hear and see, although through a poor quality video cam. The program I use is called Paltalk. We have experimented with teleconference software such as Skype, if some of you are interested in these Instant message type programs let me know. glad it wasn't a full moon! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:27 PM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Someone asked what is the implication of this, and how might it effect each of us? Well let me suggest to each of us, and a million like us, that have by the grace of G-D been called out of Babylon for a witness of the name of YHVH the only True G-D. We have been given eyes that can see, ears that can hear, not because we are better than the billions that have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear. Somehow the teaching of Ross must be put on video and spread far and wide. The fig tree is blooming in spite of the government in Israel - the time was not right in the first century for Judah to take her G-D given role, and the fig tree that was to early to have fruit was cursed signifying this. But it did not mean that all fig trees were cursed. Judah went in to exile, and according to the Word of G-D never to be repeated My fiends it is more than our just getting to Israel, it is that for a remnant of all of Jacobs children, G-D has gotten part of the children there already, and that is prove he will get the rest there sooner than later. The greatest deception since there has been a nation has already occurred, falling away from the truth is not a future event it is history, and billions are unaware. they believe what they have been taught and are marrying and giving in marriage and continuing to believe the lies they have been told. Loved ones friends and billions we do not even know worship the greatest idol in all the world. Somebody has to inform them lest they go through the fire of the great tribulation upon the nations that have punished the Jews. Joseph in the hands of Ephraim have punished their brother Judah, the role of the ancient patriarch Joseph has been reversed. Where the brothers punished Joseph the roles have reversed in history and Joseph in the hands of Ephraim has done the punishing. When Ephraim knows and understand who he is, he will weep as all of us did, when we came to know. We are called as witnesses to shout it from the housetops and anywhere we can fins one two or a hundred that will hear us. Billion are going to worship that image thinking it is Jesus whom they think is G-D, perhaps just as we did before G-D opened out eyes. It's going to get bloody friends, vengeance is mine thus saith the LORD. But if we fail to speak up every chance we get in every place we can the blood will be on our heads. This is the real thing coming down my friends, we didn't discover the truth, the truth discovered us. But now that the truth of G-D discovered us we have an obligation that is bigger than anyone of us. You all have observed the greatest idol of all the world that does not speak, but dear friends not very long in the future the idol that will speak and confirm the billions are telling the truth and we and a million like us are telling the lies, Greater deception has never occurred when evil is proclaimed as good and good proclaimed as evil. Think about it, persecuted because we claim Jesus is not G-D, its coming my friend and perhaps much sooner than we might imagine. Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/6487cd96/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 06:30:26 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 07:30:26 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Video/Ross Message-ID: Hey Dave, as you said it nothing really does happen by chance for those who serve the only true G-D. Thank G-D for you my brother. I heard a great many sermons when I was a member of the old WCOG, a Sabbath and Holy Days keeping Worldwide organization, but none like I have heard on Sunday Shull. Its got to happen my friends, Out of no chief city the good news will be proclaimed. I knew I was waiting for something, but did know what, until Ross was handed the keys to what is now the synagogue without walls. A very small beginning, that's for sure, but I read somewhere - don't despise a small beginning, or something like that. Let's join hands and minds and make it happen dear friends, its of G-D. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/e91e0489/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Dave Cole" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Video/Ross Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:38:27 -0500 Size: 17025 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/e91e0489/attachment.mht From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jun 5 08:07:30 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:07:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: [UILIST] Obama on Israel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a5201c8c70d$1e142c80$5a3c8580$@com> Hi, but the president can't make a decision without the approval of the Cabinet. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: [UILIST] Obama on Israel Well, Hanoch, a king rose up that did not know Joseph. Check his background carefully, and then ask yourself, why did hamas endorse him? Can they see what Americans cannot? Beware my friends. CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/aa378a31/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 5 08:46:39 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:46:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Dream Vision, 34 Omer 5768 Message-ID: <20080605134624.IUQV1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dialogue Friends, Concerning the true nature and intent of Obama, we have received much input about what appears to be intended by him ? once he gets into power. A snippet of paragraph 7 from a serious-minded Rabbi is shown below here in blue type. This is from a Rabbi who has issued a solemn warning to his readers about what is coming. This was forwarded to me last Shabbat by a close friend on this Rabbi?s mailing list. I think we need to take seriously the WARNING that is given here below: Paragraph 7: ??Many things will be happening on the political and social fronts. As it was in ancient Egypt, soon, in the next few months a "new Pharaoh" will rise over modern Egypt and he will not "know" Joseph. When Joseph ruled, all loved the Jews and their money. But Joseph is old now and dying. The new Pharaoh will not be sympathetic to all Joseph has done in the past, and will view him like he always has, with jealousy, prejudice and suspicion. In the next few years, it will no longer be comfortable for Jews to remain in the United States?? Please note that the full context from this Rabbi is presented below for your review. There are prophecies about ??silly dove Ephraim?? that we need to consider for the last days. Also, ??grey hairs are here and there upon him, and he knows it not?? This Rabbi?s input was the 3rd confirming element of information given to me over the past couple of weeks ? and which I can elaborate upon (for documentation) ? and will do so, if this Dialogue list is open-minded enough to receive it. But for starters, please take the time to read what this Rabbi has written below. Your life may depend upon it. Because of this information, I am in full agreement with Hanoch?s statement about Obama?s speech: ??I don?t believe a word of it?.? Thank you Hanoch. We also need to take seriously what Chris Jackson has posted with the article entitled: Arab-American Activist Says Obama Hiding Anti-Israel Stance (by Gil Ronen). See this article at: HYPERLINK "http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125656"http://www.israelna tionalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125656 In short, the Dialogue list needs to learn what others are finding out. That begins with the item posted below? Gary _____ From: Larry Bathurst [mailto:larrybat at eaglecom.net] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 2:15 PM To: mewilcox at eaglecom.net; Gary Arvidson Subject: FW: Dream Vision, 34 Omer 5768 _____ From: KosherTorah.com [mailto:koshertorah1 at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:04 PM To: larrybat at eaglecom.net Subject: Dream Vision, 34 Omer 5768 HYPERLINK "http://rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1102113574195.0.1100928836509.1511&ts=S0339&o=http: //ui.constantcontact.com/images/p1x1.gif" HYPERLINK "http://ih.constantcontact.com/fs003/1100928836509/img/272.jpg?a=11021135741 95"$Account.OrganizationName 22 Iyar 5768; May 27, 2008; Day 37 of Omer (Gevurah of Yesod) Dream Vision, 34 Omer 5768 By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2008 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. HYPERLINK "http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif" HYPERLINK "http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif" HYPERLINK "http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif" This last Shabat a number of anonymous Rabbis around the world each had a single dream vision. Details of this were not given to be released, so please do not bother to inquire. I have been informed that further information may be forthcoming after Shavuot, but no promises have been made. All that I can relate, I will do so now. I admit that with one hand I reveal and with the other hand I conceal. I know many will dismiss what I am about to write and declare it nonsense. I have been told to tell them that their opinions and they themselves matter not. Heaven has already ordained what is to be. What is to be is not a pretty picture. There are so many forces at work now "behind the scenes" that no one, not even those who think they are in control, actually knows what is happening. There are plans within plans and planners behind planners. However higher up the authority goes, there is still yet a higher authority pulling the strings. As much as they think they know, there is so much more that they do not. We are not the only ones in the dark and we are not the only ones with the proverbial wool being pulled over our eyes. Those who have put us in the dark and have pulled the wool over our eyes are themselves in the dark and equally have wool pulled over their eyes. They think that all will be well with them in the end, but in truth, in the end they will meet the same fate as the rest. There will be many surprises. When the plans of the planners reach a certain stage, a "monkey-wrench" out of "nowhere" is going to be thrown into the works which is going to really mess up the planner's long hard work. Yet, know this, the one who will throw that "monkey-wrench" is only implementing a higher plan to coincide with the plan of the planner. Like I said, there are plans within plans and planners behind planners. There is so much happening now. So many hints, so few who understand them. So much is going on around us and those here in the U.S. are more concerned with the rising price of gasoline and contemplating who will become the next American President. None of these things matter. It is all part of an elaborate scheme to keep our eyes and minds distracted from what is really going on "behind the scenes" where no one is watching. Life is a long road and only Heaven knows the way. Human history is coming towards a major turning point. Something mucho grande is about to occur and most of us are totally clueless that preparations for the "big event" have been going on for many years now. You see the big event that is coming cannot be hidden. It is too big to hide. Rather than conceal it therefore, it is being hidden in plain sight, for everyone to see and thus for everyone to ignore. However, it is right there under your nose. It is broadcast to you daily, in the news, on television and in the movies. But these are fictitious portrayals, you say. You say, maybe I watch too much television and see too many movies. But no, the opposite is true, you are not seeing enough. Society is being seeded like a field. The crop of consciousness is growing. We will soon see the fruits of that which is now being sown. Watch the seed and you will know the crop. Continue to ignore what is happening, continue living in your illusion that you are safe and secure and you will end up being strangled by the very weeds that you deny exist. Many things will be happening on the political and social fronts. As it was in ancient Egypt, soon, in the next few months a "new Pharaoh" will rise over modern Egypt and he will not "know" Joseph. When Joseph ruled, all loved the Jews and their money. But Joseph is old now and dying. The new Pharaoh will not be sympathetic to all Joseph has done in the past, and will view him like he always has, with jealousy, prejudice and suspicion. In the next few years, it will no longer be comfortable for Jews to remain in the United States. It starts with continuing anti-Israel speech pervading the entire media. More than now, what is coming will be much worse. It will be targeted at the existence of a Jewish state, the values of Torah and the Bible and the Jewish and other Bible faithful peoples. All these will be called threats to national and world security. It has already started and will worsen. Mockery will be the tool. Tolerance for religion will become a thing of the past. Traditional religion will become the new public enemy. Traditional morality will become suspect, proclaiming it will be condemned as hate speech and declared illegal. Allegiance to G-d and to His word will become tantamount to criminal. This has already begun and will soon rise to the pinnacles of power. No one is paying attention to the rising beast within our midst. No one seems to care. Everyone is too busy. I see all the squabbling going on around me in every community and in every imaginable way. Everyone is so involved with the petty pursuits of their own lives and interests that they have no time or interest to look beyond the proverbial edges of their own noses. The problem with this is that if one is coming to a great precipice into which one is about to fall, one does not see it coming until it is way too late to stop one's tumbling down into perdition. But who cares? Who is listening? Who is willing to stop riding the thrilling roller-coaster of life? Who is willing to place their feet firmly on the ground and look around and see what there really is to be seen? Watch the summer batch of movies. Pay attention to what is being spoken about in the television talk shows. Learn to read between the lines. Identify the seed and you will recognize the fruit. Pray to G-d, it is all that we have left that can help us. There are no physical safe havens. No one on the surface of the Earth will dwell securely, not even in the Land of Israel. Pontificate all you want, you Israelis; your nation and land will rock and rumble and your government will collapse in ruin. Pray to G-d. He will guide you and direct you when the time is right. There is still time left. The crop is still growing. It will not mature before one to four years. But mature, it will. The monkey-wrench is not yet anywhere to be seen or identified. This is by design. But when it comes, no one will miss it. It will rock the Earth. I cannot reveal anything more at this time. Let what I have said suffice. --------------------------------------------------- Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok email: HYPERLINK "mailto:koshertorah1 at yahoo.com"koshertorah1 at yahoo.com phone: 818-345-0888 web: HYPERLINK "http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=00132JEjw0SjYQrA1sTQZn6_yr_0AaQGWp-S9jcCPFY7Zk-iZJT IbXkjDpkEN4RJIY8gH6Am_i00bCAgEELwIWSSazWirQRTmyqKJOn564IOcu2DFAE-vgEGQ=="htt p://www.koshertorah.com HYPERLINK "http://img.constantcontact.com/letters/images/spacer.gif" Stop! Take a moment, and say a sincere "thank you" to HaShem for all the the good things you have right now. HYPERLINK "http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?p=un&v=001v8sInscvtskLSyXtJpHgJpzg 5dztV2P5uo48Kr2lW5ZRKcJ7F06pGvvbcvXo9KyLd1-fqsgduhux4GZ62w07TQ%3D%3D" \nSafe Unsubscribe This email was sent to larrybat at eaglecom.net, by HYPERLINK "mailto:koshertorah1 at yahoo.com"koshertorah1 at yahoo.com HYPERLINK "http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?p=oo&v=001v8sInscvtskLSyXtJpHgJpzg 5dztV2P5uo48Kr2lW5ZRKcJ7F06pGvvbcvXo9KyLd1-fqsgduhux4GZ62w07TQ%3D%3D" \nUpdate Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with HYPERLINK "http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?p=un&v=001v8sInscvtskLSyXtJpHgJpzg 5dztV2P5uo48Kr2lW5ZRKcJ7F06pGvvbcvXo9KyLd1-fqsgduhux4GZ62w07TQ%3D%3D" \nSafeUnsubscribe? | HYPERLINK "http://ui.constantcontact..com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp" \nPrivacy Policy. HYPERLINK "http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=news03" \nEmail Marketing by HYPERLINK "http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=news03" KosherTorah.com | 18375 Ventura Blvd. Suite 314 | Tarzana | CA | 91356 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 8:56 AM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1464 - Release Date: 5/24/2008 8:56 AM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/ec7aa3a4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 5 10:11:37 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:11:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] About Obama Message-ID: <8CA953595655545-14BC-1391@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com> Shalom to all, ??? I have very little interest or desire, to discuss American politics, but I have received numerous private emails for my opinion about Barack Hussien Obama. My personal belief is that American WILL eventually sell out Israel totally, if it hasn't already been "written into a 'pact'" yet - whoever is President.? Regardless, go to www.YouTube.com? and type in "The Real Obama"? - see what it shows you.?? ??? There's no problem for me if you want to agree to disagree; and this is the last time I intend to post on this particular issue.? Have a Yom Naim (pleasant day)! ???????????? Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/d42aacc8/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jun 5 17:16:51 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:16:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah] Message-ID: <484865D3.2060007@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/36b570ba/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Spirit of EliYah Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:08:14 -0700 Size: 9049 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/36b570ba/attachment.eml From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 15:42:02 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:42:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <1B9AAE23-491C-4F3D-8B8B-0D3B5CD26F15@earthlink.net> I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies-- well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: > Dialogue Friends, > > Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me > about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in > San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a > state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over > to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t > believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over > certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, > helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he > is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. > > From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When > he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this > stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like > the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this > question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed > by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? > and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what > the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. > > These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of > research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the > booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The > drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: > > The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an > inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the > following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation > between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is > called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting > parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to > behold. > > [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its > use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a > reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/ > or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a > comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but > cannot hear > > Dear friends: > > Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can > fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came > down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of > my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my > emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent > of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could > be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain > what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest > idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are > worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha > Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in > heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is > not necessary to say more in that regard. > > The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium > filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have > seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what > the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of > Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was > covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and > the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image > came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. > > All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship > of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I > cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your > worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept > bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the > image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When > the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being > unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? > > I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at > some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the > texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if > it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction > begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to > center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he > is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the > secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which > I'm pointing. > > But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover > briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer > perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I > know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an > image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not > worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only > appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to > the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be > deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and > ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears > but cannot hear. > > It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can > see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of > you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from > the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D > will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can > hear. > > CB > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > > [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its > use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a > reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/ > or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 7:10 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 7:10 AM > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/1da12a9d/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 17:54:12 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:54:12 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: The Spirit of EliYah Message-ID: Joe, help me here. Are you suggesting Yohanan as Eljjah passed the mantle to Yeshua thus fulfilling the role of Elisha? If you are I find this of great interest that requires more exploration. My eyes fail me but I hope I gotten close enough so can figure out what I'm asking. Thank you Joe for you excellent research Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/f21425f7/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Gary Arvidson" Subject: The Spirit of EliYah Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:25:51 -0400 Size: 154266 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/f21425f7/attachment.mht From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 5 18:11:24 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:11:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <1B9AAE23-491C-4F3D-8B8B-0D3B5CD26F15@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20080605231109.WMSK1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dear James, I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose. All I can think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false through ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8. As you know, I tied this to Ge 1:16. The assumption is that the false (lesser light) is destroyed by the true (greater light). The physical phenomenon of a full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? especially in the desert. But once the sun appears over the horizon, the ?lesser light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the presence of the ?greater light? of the sun. I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was discussing ? but that is only an assumption. What I think you are suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon-Level of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the ?mystical Christ? upon that. That is a rather shocking consideration, which I?ve not entertained before. Bravo. Like I say, I?ve not considered that potential before, so this is one more good idea tossed into the hopper. Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4. Thanks for this additional perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious case of mental ?whiplash.? Gary P.S. I discussed this comment with Clyde before sending it to Dialogue. He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this issue. Because if Paul saw the same thing that Clyde saw, then Paul & Clyde have come away with different conclusions over the seemingly same phenomenon. He can comment further if you wish. We could use more input from educated human sources like yourself and/or Hashem? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverseHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn1"[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. _____ From: HYPERLINK "mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org"dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [HYPERLINK "mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org"mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffai th.org] On Behalf Of HYPERLINK "mailto:CBrown4465 at aol.com"CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: HYPERLINK "mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org"dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. HYPERLINK "http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002" \nWatch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref1"[1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/d312d946/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 18:17:35 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 19:17:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <20080605231109.WMSK1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080605231109.WMSK1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <1231F937-A958-4C86-B694-0D81E024CB7C@earthlink.net> What I had in mind was not so much the degree of light sun/moon or whatever, but just that Paul saw "something" he identified with the "risen Christ" and he communicated with this entity. He was also willing to bow the knee before this being and predicted that some day every knee would bow to him/it as well. James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: > Dear James, > > I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose. All I can > think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false through > ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8. As you know, I tied > this to Ge 1:16. The assumption is that the false (lesser light) is > destroyed by the true (greater light). The physical phenomenon of a > full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? especially in the > desert. But once the sun appears over the horizon, the ?lesser > light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the presence of the > ?greater light? of the sun. > > I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a > physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was > discussing ? but that is only an assumption. What I think you are > suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon-Level > of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the ?mystical > Christ? upon that. That is a rather shocking consideration, which > I?ve not entertained before. Bravo. Like I say, I?ve not > considered that potential before, so this is one more good idea > tossed into the hopper. > > Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words > about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4. Thanks for this additional > perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious > case of mental ?whiplash.? > > Gary > > P.S. I discussed this comment with Clyde before sending it to > Dialogue. He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this issue. > Because if Paul saw the same thing that Clyde saw, then Paul & Clyde > have come away with different conclusions over the seemingly same > phenomenon. He can comment further if you wish. We could use more > input from educated human sources like yourself and/or Hashem? > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast > > I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether > one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of > "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like > this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite > sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings > we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while > Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are > saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," > shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people > should listen to him. > > This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to > get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near > to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. > > Most interesting... > > James > > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: > > > Dialogue Friends, > > Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me > about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in > San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a > state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over > to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t > believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over > certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, > helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he > is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. > > From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When > he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this > stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like > the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this > question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed > by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? > and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what > the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. > > These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of > research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the > booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The > drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: > > The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an > inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the > following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation > between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is > called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting > parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to > behold. > > [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its > use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a > reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/ > or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a > comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but > cannot hear > > Dear friends: > > Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can > fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came > down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of > my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my > emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent > of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could > be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain > what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest > idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are > worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha > Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in > heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is > not necessary to say more in that regard. > > The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium > filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have > seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what > the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of > Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was > covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and > the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image > came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. > > All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship > of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I > cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your > worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept > bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the > image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When > the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being > unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? > > I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at > some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the > texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if > it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction > begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to > center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he > is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the > secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which > I'm pointing. > > But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover > briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer > perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I > know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an > image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not > worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only > appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to > the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be > deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and > ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears > but cannot hear. > > It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can > see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of > you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from > the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D > will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can > hear. > > CB > > > > > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler > Florence" on AOL Food. > > [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its > use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a > reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/ > or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 7:10 AM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 7:10 AM > > _______________________________________________ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 4:40 PM > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: > 6/4/2008 4:40 PM > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/0a70e2aa/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 18:18:50 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <1B9AAE23-491C-4F3D-8B8B-0D3B5CD26F15@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <603252.17608.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom James,   I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either.   Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first?   Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected?   I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews.   I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles.   In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it.   Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon.    Your Brother,   Tracy        --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in  San Dimas ,  California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with  Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/9c70c3d5/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:05:37 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <1231F937-A958-4C86-B694-0D81E024CB7C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <512818.55211.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If I may insert here James,   The verse you refer, in Phillipians 2:10, I think it should be translated this way:   "In (rather than, at) the name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow (to HaShem)...and confess that Yeshua is Lord to the glory of G-d." A definite distinction between Yeshua and G-d. There is, you know, a big difference between, The Lord Messiah and The L-RD G-d.   Besides that, there is scriptural precedence in bowing before The King, submitting to HaShem's anointed King, according to the will of HaShem. Doing so does not imply that that man is HaShem.   1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the earth, and did obeisance.   2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho over against him saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. So, what would be wrong with bowing before Yeshua?   Your Brother,   Tracy     --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 6:17 PM What I had in mind was not so much the degree of light sun/moon or whatever, but just that Paul saw "something" he identified with the "risen Christ" and he communicated with this entity. He was also willing to bow the knee before this being and predicted that some day every knee would bow to him/it as well.  James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dear James,   I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose.  All I can think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false through ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8.  As you know, I tied this to Ge 1:16.  The assumption is that the false (lesser light) is destroyed by the true (greater light).  The physical phenomenon of a full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? especially in the desert.  But once the sun appears over the horizon, the ?lesser light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the presence of the ?greater light? of the sun.    I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was discussing ? but that is only an assumption.  What I think you are suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon-Level of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the ?mystical Christ? upon that.  That is a rather shocking consideration, which I?ve not entertained before.  Bravo.  Like I say, I?ve not considered that potential before, so this is one more good idea tossed into the hopper.    Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4.  Thanks for this additional perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious case of mental ?whiplash.?   Gary   P.S. I discussed this comment with  Clyde before sending it to Dialogue.  He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this issue.  Because if Paul saw the same thing that  Clyde saw, then Paul & Clyde have come away with different conclusions over the seemingly same phenomenon.  He can comment further if you wish.  We could use more input from educated human sources like yourself and/or Hashem?   From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast   I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him.   This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb.   Most interesting...   James     On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in  San Dimas ,  California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with  Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus.   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM     No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/11ed7a20/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 19:51:11 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:51:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience Message-ID: <516d73340806051751s4857d955geb4c44a896e90803@mail.gmail.com> G'day all, There are a number of Christian organizations today that can trace their origins back to the prophetic and visionary experiences of their founders. Three that readily come to mind are Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and Seventh-day Adventists. In Adventism the oft quoted statement of Ellen G White, a visionary prophet, is that she was a "lesser light pointing to the Greater Light" She also admonished her followers with the Old Testament text, "To the Law and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this there is no light in them." The scriptures are always a safeguard for personal experience. Hence the "tension" that existed in the early Christian church as Paul's influence seemed to be gaining the ascendancy. The work of the Holy Spirit and the Testimony of the Scriptures must validate each other. Brian ps What do the letters "nbsp" stand for? Every posting I get has them in them somewhere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/bf4681bb/attachment.html From shcole1 at cox.net Thu Jun 5 20:14:37 2008 From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:14:37 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <512818.55211.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <512818.55211.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14B2C52824B4421CA8B08DF007C9BD88@sherryPC> Dear Tracy, Thank you for your response. It confirms EXACTLY what I was thinking about today, almost word for word. Blessings, Sherry ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast If I may insert here James, The verse you refer, in Phillipians 2:10, I think it should be translated this way: "In (rather than, at) the name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow (to HaShem)...and confess that Yeshua is Lord to the glory of G-d." A definite distinction between Yeshua and G-d. There is, you know, a big difference between, The Lord Messiah and The L-RD G-d. Besides that, there is scriptural precedence in bowing before The King, submitting to HaShem's anointed King, according to the will of HaShem. Doing so does not imply that that man is HaShem. 1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the earth, and did obeisance. 2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho over against him saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. So, what would be wrong with bowing before Yeshua? Your Brother, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 6:17 PM What I had in mind was not so much the degree of light sun/moon or whatever, but just that Paul saw "something" he identified with the "risen Christ" and he communicated with this entity. He was also willing to bow the knee before this being and predicted that some day every knee would bow to him/it as well. James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dear James, I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose. All I can think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false through ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8. As you know, I tied this to Ge 1:16. The assumption is that the false (lesser light) is destroyed by the true (greater light). The physical phenomenon of a full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? especially in the desert. But once the sun appears over the horizon, the ?lesser light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the presence of the ?greater light? of the sun. I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was discussing ? but that is only an assumption. What I think you are suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon-Level of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the ?mystical Christ? upon that. That is a rather shocking consideration, which I?ve not entertained before. Bravo. Like I say, I?ve not considered that potential before, so this is one more good idea tossed into the hopper. Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4. Thanks for this additional perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious case of mental ?whiplash.? Gary P.S. I discussed this comment with Clyde before sending it to Dialogue. He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this issue. Because if Paul saw the same thing that Clyde saw, then Paul & Clyde have come away with different conclusions over the seemingly same phenomenon. He can comment further if you wish. We could use more input from educated human sources like yourself and/or Hashem? -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB -------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/afe280b8/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jun 5 20:27:05 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:27:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Day at the Western Wall Message-ID: <47D56A100F004E3ABE553DEFC39AB118@bettygivin> This is a beautiful and inspiring 90 second movie. Take a look at: http://www.aish.com/theWall.asp I am going to keep the address on my desktop so I can see it while I am counting the Omer this few remaining days coming up to Shavuot. Enjoy it and be blessed and inspired, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/281538ce/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Thu Jun 5 21:08:23 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:08:23 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Message-ID: Tracy, very good points that must be taken into consideration, since context determines content. It is to the glory of G-D which is a clear distinction. It is not bowing to G-d to the glory of G-D.This is the only interpretation it seems that makes sense. Thank you brother Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/1f169f0a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "sherry cole" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:14:37 -0500 Size: 68665 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/1f169f0a/attachment.mht From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jun 5 21:29:52 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:29:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <1B9AAE23-491C-4F3D-8B8B-0D3B5CD26F15@earthlink.net> References: <20080604144610.IXYL1714.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> <1B9AAE23-491C-4F3D-8B8B-0D3B5CD26F15@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0b5501c8c77d$34e56f30$9eb04d90$@com> Hi, I am of the current understanding, and I am open to correction, that Paul used his "vision" as a sort of qualifier that his message was equal, if not greater than, that of the remaining disciples, i.e. he did not witness the message of Yeshua in person, but was "given" a better understanding directly from the risen Christ.. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn't believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain "words" which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar - nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun - or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ".the greater light." and the moon is ".the lesser light." (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents - in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that "the beast" is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, "the beast," as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus - but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/9c66896b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 21:32:53 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:32:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <603252.17608.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <603252.17608.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net> Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom James, > > > I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either. > > > Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? > May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? > If so, who do you think will be the first? > > > Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and > Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected? > > > I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' > concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who > was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be > totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim > Jews. > > > I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the > rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/ > Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view > concerning the salvation of gentiles. > > > In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/ > Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is > Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came > upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that > came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was > given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle > crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it. > > > Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme > end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual > Babylon. > > > Your Brother, > > > Tracy > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM > > I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether > one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of > "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like > this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite > sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings > we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while > Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are > saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," > shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people > should listen to him. > > This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to > get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near > to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. > > Most interesting... > > James > > > On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: >> Dialogue Friends, >> >> Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me >> about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in >> San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in >> a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and >> over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I >> didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde >> over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few >> years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I >> know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >> >> From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When >> he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this >> stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like >> the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this >> question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as >> posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater >> light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all >> know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed >> by the Devil. >> >> These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of >> research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the >> booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The >> drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: >> >> The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is >> an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the >> following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross- >> correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the >> beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. >> The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is >> rather amazing to behold. >> >> [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its >> use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a >> reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse >> and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but >> in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. >> >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but >> cannot hear >> >> Dear friends: >> >> Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we >> can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision >> came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the >> core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of >> my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to >> repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision >> could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will >> explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the >> greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking >> they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning >> desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He >> lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know >> that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. >> >> The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium >> filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any >> have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of >> what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the >> Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full >> silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was >> the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were >> clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet >> above the ground. >> >> All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship >> of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I >> cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your >> worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept >> bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the >> image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. >> When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of >> being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? >> >> I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur >> at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of >> the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that >> if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction >> begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to >> center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he >> is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the >> secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to >> which I'm pointing. >> >> But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover >> briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The >> seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, >> since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us >> make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that >> will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has >> only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have >> spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends >> cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that >> can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot >> see, and ears but cannot hear. >> >> It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can >> see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of >> you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from >> the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G- >> D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that >> can hear. >> >> CB >> >> >> >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food. >> >> [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its >> use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a >> reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse >> and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 7:10 AM >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 7:10 AM >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/7250e6f3/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Jun 5 21:49:48 2008 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:49:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <512818.55211.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <512818.55211.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A2D36BA-C7F9-4F9C-BD63-23A8E1DCA12B@earthlink.net> Thanks Tracy... Paul makes use of Isa 45 in both Phil 2 and Rom 14, though in the latter he does not insert the intermediator idea. I find it instructive to go back to Isaiah, who has no "messiah" as intervening Savior and whose language of YHVH's singularity is quite strong. Isa 45:21-24: Am I not Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Only in Jehovah, it is said of me, is righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come... The subject of "bowing the knee" is an vast one, too much to go into here, but it became a vital topic in Jewish tradition and life since many Jews died rather than "bow" in the sense of Isa 45, to anyone other than YHVH, but you are right, bowing to a human ruler was understood differently than the "bowing" reserved for YHVH as spoken of in Isa 45. Sorry to be rushed, as this is really a good topic. Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:05 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > If I may insert here James, > > > The verse you refer, in Phillipians 2:10, I think it should be > translated this way: > > > "In (rather than, at) the name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow (to > HaShem)...and confess that Yeshua is Lord to the glory of G-d." A > definite distinction between Yeshua and G-d. There is, you know, a > big difference between, The Lord Messiah and The L-RD G-d. > > > Besides that, there is scriptural precedence in bowing before The > King, submitting to HaShem's anointed King, according to the will of > HaShem. Doing so does not imply that that man is HaShem. > > > 1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and > cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked > behind him, David bowed with his face to the earth, and did obeisance. > > > 2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho over > against him saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on > Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the > ground before him. > > > So, what would be wrong with bowing before Yeshua? > > > Your Brother, > > > Tracy > > > > > --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 6:17 PM > > What I had in mind was not so much the degree of light sun/moon or > whatever, but just that Paul saw "something" he identified with the > "risen Christ" and he communicated with this entity. He was also > willing to bow the knee before this being and predicted that some > day every knee would bow to him/it as well. > > James > > > On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: >> Dear James, >> >> I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose. All I can >> think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false >> through ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8. As you know, >> I tied this to Ge 1:16. The assumption is that the false (lesser >> light) is destroyed by the true (greater light). The physical >> phenomenon of a full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? >> especially in the desert. But once the sun appears over the >> horizon, the ?lesser light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the >> presence of the ?greater light? of the sun. >> >> I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a >> physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was >> discussing ? but that is only an assumption. What I think you are >> suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon- >> Level of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the >> ?mystical Christ? upon that. That is a rather shocking >> consideration, which I?ve not entertained before. Bravo. Like I >> say, I?ve not considered that potential before, so this is one more >> good idea tossed into the hopper. >> >> Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words >> about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4. Thanks for this additional >> perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious >> case of mental ?whiplash.? >> >> Gary >> >> P.S. I discussed this comment with Clyde before sending it to >> Dialogue. He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this >> issue. Because if Paul saw the same thing that Clyde saw, then >> Paul & Clyde have come away with different conclusions over the >> seemingly same phenomenon. He can comment further if you wish. We >> could use more input from educated human sources like yourself and/ >> or Hashem? >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of James Tabor >> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast >> >> I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether >> one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of >> "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like >> this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite >> sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine >> writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such >> visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and >> what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his >> "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after >> the flesh," so people should listen to him. >> >> This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to >> get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, >> near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. >> >> Most interesting... >> >> James >> >> >> On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: >> >> >> Dialogue Friends, >> >> Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me >> about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in >> San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in >> a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and >> over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I >> didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde >> over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few >> years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I >> know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >> >> From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When >> he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this >> stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like >> the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this >> question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as >> posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater >> light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all >> know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed >> by the Devil. >> >> These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of >> research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the >> booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The >> drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: >> >> The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is >> an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the >> following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross- >> correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the >> beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. >> The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is >> rather amazing to behold. >> >> [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its >> use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a >> reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse >> and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but >> in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. >> >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com >> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but >> cannot hear >> >> Dear friends: >> >> Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we >> can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision >> came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the >> core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of >> my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to >> repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision >> could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will >> explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the >> greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking >> they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning >> desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He >> lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know >> that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. >> >> The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium >> filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any >> have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of >> what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the >> Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full >> silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was >> the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were >> clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet >> above the ground. >> >> All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship >> of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I >> cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your >> worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept >> bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the >> image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. >> When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of >> being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? >> >> I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur >> at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of >> the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that >> if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction >> begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to >> center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he >> is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the >> secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to >> which I'm pointing. >> >> But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover >> briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The >> seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, >> since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us >> make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that >> will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has >> only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have >> spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends >> cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that >> can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot >> see, and ears but cannot hear. >> >> It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can >> see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of >> you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from >> the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G- >> D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that >> can hear. >> >> CB >> >> >> >> >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food. >> >> [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its >> use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a >> reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse >> and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 7:10 AM >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 7:10 AM >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 4:40 PM >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: >> 6/4/2008 4:40 PM >> >> _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/65511a0d/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Jun 5 21:51:50 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:51:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] About Obama References: <8CA953595655545-14BC-1391@webmail-me07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <007601c8c780$45225b80$6600a8c0@davesbook> Hey Hanoch.....yeah I agree with your opinion about politics (I didn't even read your email :0.....) I intend to keep my mind on the big picture, as I know you do also. My only ? is does "Gee-Dee" control who gets the job, OR do we (the people) have full control over this process (I understand the fact that we don't directly elect the President). Any way.....who is our "king" "and this is the last time I intend to post on this particular issue."............Make it so! :-) peace dave ----- Original Message ----- From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:11 AM Subject: [Dialogue] About Obama Shalom to all, I have very little interest or desire, to discuss American politics, but I have received numerous private emails for my opinion about Barack Hussien Obama. My personal belief is that American WILL eventually sell out Israel totally, if it hasn't already been "written into a 'pact'" yet - whoever is President. Regardless, go to www.YouTube.com and type in "The Real Obama" - see what it shows you. There's no problem for me if you want to agree to disagree; and this is the last time I intend to post on this particular issue. Have a Yom Naim (pleasant day)! Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stay informed, get connected and more with AOL on your phone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/458895a5/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 22:32:22 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks James.   I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe.   Love & Prayers,   Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James,   I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either.   Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first?   Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected?   I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews.   I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles.   In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it.   Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon.    Your Brother,   Tracy        --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in  San Dimas ,  California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with  Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/72600ab7/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 22:41:49 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:41:49 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Question Message-ID: <516d73340806052041o3a1ac089k930372c6c76c9c8d@mail.gmail.com> G'day, DoesYHWH have the ability to incarnate, i.e. take on human form? Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/f13232cb/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 5 22:48:40 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:48:40 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net> <908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Gang, I guess I'm still rather confused regarding some of the terms we tend to toss around on the list. What is everyone's understanding of WHAT the 'Lord Messiah' is supposed to be? I'm not asking WHO right now. I'm asking WHAT is the 'Lord Messiah' supposed to accomplish according to the scriptures? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks James. I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James, I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either. Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first? Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected? I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews. I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles. In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it. Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon. Your Brother, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/2355e883/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:02:31 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <0A2D36BA-C7F9-4F9C-BD63-23A8E1DCA12B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <940871.76129.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Blessings James!!! See the blue below. I couldn't resist. You are very busy. You don't have to comment. Blessings again!!!   --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:49 PM Thanks Tracy... Paul makes use of Isa 45 in both Phil 2 and Rom 14 [correct], though in the latter he does not insert the intermediator idea. I find it instructive to go back to Isaiah, who has no "messiah" as intervening Savior and whose language of YHVH's singularity is quite strong. Isaiah 45 is in the context of all of Isaiah. Isaiah 11 makes clear that someone is anointed by HaShem to lead the gentiles and the tribes back to HaShem [Does that make him an intermediator?] Paul never instructed anyone to pray to Yeshua]. Such an Isaiah 11 person could be called a "messiah" since he is "anointed" or we could call him a savior / deliverer, as one sent as an emmissary of HaShem. There were plenty of "saviors" in the book of Judges. That, of course, does not mean that they are "The" savior. I think that Paul is describing Yeshua as such a person. Isa 45:21-24: Am I not Jehovah? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me [and yet, Isaiah 6 describes Seraphim with Him and the Torah speaks quite a bit about His Angel. And then we have somone sitting at His Right Hand in Psalm 110. So, He's not actually alone, is He?] . Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else [there is no other source of deliverance]. By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Only in Jehovah, it is said of me, is righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come...[Paul said, "I bow my knee unto the G-d and Father of Yeshua...Eph 4"] The subject of "bowing the knee" is an vast one, too much to go into here, but it became a vital topic in Jewish tradition and life since many Jews died rather than "bow" in the sense of Isa 45, to anyone other than YHVH, but you are right, bowing to a human ruler was understood differently than the "bowing" reserved for YHVH as spoken of in Isa 45. [So, You & I & Paul Agree!!] Sorry to be rushed, as this is really a good topic. [Our Prayers are with you, Sir] Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 8:05 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: If I may insert here James,   The verse you refer, in Phillipians 2:10, I think it should be translated this way:   "In (rather than, at) the name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow (to HaShem)...and confess that Yeshua is Lord to the glory of G-d." A definite distinction between Yeshua and G-d. There is, you know, a big difference between, The Lord Messiah and The L-RD G-d.   Besides that, there is scriptural precedence in bowing before The King, submitting to HaShem's anointed King, according to the will of HaShem. Doing so does not imply that that man is HaShem.   1Sa 24:8 David also arose afterward, and went out of the cave, and cried after Saul, saying, My lord the king. And when Saul looked behind him, David bowed with his face to the earth, and did obeisance.   2Ki 2:15 And when the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho over against him saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him. So, what would be wrong with bowing before Yeshua?   Your Brother,   Tracy     --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 6:17 PM What I had in mind was not so much the degree of light sun/moon or whatever, but just that Paul saw "something" he identified with the "risen Christ" and he communicated with this entity. He was also willing to bow the knee before this being and predicted that some day every knee would bow to him/it as well.  James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:11 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dear James,   I?ve never considered this aspect before that you pose.  All I can think is that Paul talked about the destruction of the false through ??the brightness of his coming?? in 2Th 2:8.  As you know, I tied this to Ge 1:16.  The assumption is that the false (lesser light) is destroyed by the true (greater light).  The physical phenomenon of a full moon before dawn is a spectacle to behold ? especially in the desert.  But once the sun appears over the horizon, the ?lesser light? of the moon becomes as nothing in the presence of the ?greater light? of the sun.    I have felt that this association of sunlight & moonlight (on a physical basis) applied to the phenomenon of what Paul was discussing ? but that is only an assumption.  What I think you are suggesting is that Paul may have been acquainted with the Moon-Level of brilliance (lesser), and then based his theology of the ?mystical Christ? upon that.  That is a rather shocking consideration, which I?ve not entertained before.  Bravo.  Like I say, I?ve not considered that potential before, so this is one more good idea tossed into the hopper.    Then the follow-on discussion would need to entertain the words about ??another Jesus?? in 2Co 11:4.  Thanks for this additional perspective ? even if it has given me, in the short term, a serious case of mental ?whiplash.?   Gary   P.S. I discussed this comment with  Clyde before sending it to Dialogue.  He said that you jarred his sensibilities on this issue.  Because if Paul saw the same thing that  Clyde saw, then Paul & Clyde have come away with different conclusions over the seemingly same phenomenon.  He can comment further if you wish.  We could use more input from educated human sources like yourself and/or Hashem?   From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast   I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him.   This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb.   Most interesting...   James     On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in  San Dimas ,  California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with  Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus.   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM     No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/a91d152f/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:04:41 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Question In-Reply-To: <516d73340806052041o3a1ac089k930372c6c76c9c8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <191556.68899.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> No.   Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Brian McFarlane <brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com> wrote: From: Brian McFarlane <brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com> Subject: [Dialogue] Question To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:41 PM G'day, DoesYHWH have the ability to incarnate, i.e. take on human form? Brian_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/f34765a6/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:24:03 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <662351.53943.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom John,   I suppose that the first indication, and it is really a nutshell statement: Genesis 3:15   Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.   Isaiah Chapters 11, 49, & 53, 61 are all parts of that equation.   Tracy  --- On Thu, 6/5/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:48 PM Gang,   I guess I'm still rather confused regarding some of the terms we tend to toss around on the list. Sorry if I confused anyone. The term Lord (Hebrew: Adon) is used in scripture in addressing HaShem and for men. So, in saying the Lord G-d, I try to distinguish between an anointed man and the One and Only G-d.   What is everyone's understanding of WHAT the 'Lord Messiah' is supposed to be?  I'm not asking WHO right now.  I'm asking WHAT is the 'Lord Messiah' supposed to accomplish according to the scriptures?   -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted   -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>: -------------- Thanks James.   I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe.   Love & Prayers,   Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James,   I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either.   Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first?   Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected?   I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews.   I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles.   In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it.   Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon.    Your Brother,   Tracy        --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote: From: James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in  San Dimas ,  California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with  Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: </ SPAN>Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is no t necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.& nbsp; This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/9f77ca47/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:36:02 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:36:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> Message-ID: Hey Betty: This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. www.aramaicNTtruth.org We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very > limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way > you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is > dialoguing! > > > > I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. > At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in > his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a > lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with > Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the > coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass > from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, > called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. > Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time > to look up the references at this point? > > > > I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. > The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who > have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless > HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor > and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have > often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, > so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and > forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak > of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! > > > > Love and blessings to all, > > > > Betty/Elisheva > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Robbins > *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread > > > > YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much > for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of > HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it > sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to > do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to > understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets > them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is > ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are > justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! > > > > I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that > it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis > teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they > do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of > G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. > > > > I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, > > > > Avigail (Pat) > > > > *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com > > *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread > > > > Dear friends: > > > > We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth > the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked > up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called > NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in > emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to > turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree > that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua > came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without > adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in > America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in > Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. > > > > The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but > something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the > main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading > away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were > seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the > Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. > Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I > will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these > added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of > breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. > > > > Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if > you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any > case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions > of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that > Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These > followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of > the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat > and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed > for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and > put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua > did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups > being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. > > > > But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his > mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to > waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? > The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new > Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. > Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject > other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is > not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by > Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was > it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. > > > > And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The > Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to > righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT > scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not > clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to > notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman > assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not > against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T > has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he > might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. > > > > But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it > that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my > story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell > your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes > in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of > the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able > to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right > credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story > and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul > was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took > him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this > the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in > the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the > grace of G-D alone. > > > > By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he > choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that > amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even > the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace > upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second > level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds > of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not > permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was > the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And > what was that thread at least in my story? > > > > It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the > Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having > the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from > you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. > > > > Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear > it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, > but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who > walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. > > > > CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with > the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if > you will. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" > on AOL Food > . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/fa19c6c5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 5 23:44:13 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:44:13 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> Message-ID: <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Chris and Amber, Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's getting harder to do every day. Jump in. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" : -------------- Hey Betty: This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. www.aramaicNTtruth.org We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time to look up the references at this point? I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/8d43c8d3/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:49:09 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:49:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Hey John: Theres a few interesting things on there. I guess along with not wanting to offend, we hold back because we do not want others to think we agree with every link we might send. Does that make since? Chris and Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:44 AM, wrote: > Hey Chris and Amber, > > Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. > > I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I > won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's > getting harder to do every day. Jump in. > > ;-{)} > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" < > calbfordham at gmail.com>: -------------- > > Hey Betty: > > This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned > Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different > perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the > "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english > translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass > it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. > > www.aramaicNTtruth.org > > > We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has > to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. > Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. > > Chris and Amber Fordham > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > >> Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is >> very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the >> way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is >> dialoguing! >> >> >> >> I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. >> At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in >> his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a >> lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with >> Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the >> coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass >> from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, >> called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. >> Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time >> to look up the references at this point? >> >> >> >> I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. >> The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who >> have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless >> HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor >> and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have >> often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, >> so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and >> forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak >> of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! >> >> >> >> Love and blessings to all, >> >> >> >> Betty/Elisheva >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Robbins >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much >> for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of >> HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it >> sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to >> do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to >> understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets >> them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is >> ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are >> justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! >> >> >> >> I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that >> it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis >> teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they >> do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of >> G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. >> >> >> >> I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, >> >> >> >> Avigail (Pat) >> >> >> >> *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com >> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM >> >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> Dear friends: >> >> >> >> We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set >> forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was >> picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the >> so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested >> earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before >> him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we >> can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to >> righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret >> it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and >> place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the >> bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained >> ascendancy. >> >> >> >> The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but >> something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the >> main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading >> away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were >> seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the >> Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. >> Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I >> will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these >> added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of >> breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. >> >> >> >> Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if >> you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any >> case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions >> of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that >> Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These >> followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of >> the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat >> and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed >> for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and >> put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua >> did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups >> being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it . >> >> >> >> But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get >> his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried >> to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? >> The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new >> Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. >> Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject >> other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is >> not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by >> Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was >> it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. >> >> >> >> And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The >> Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to >> righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT >> scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not >> clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to >> notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman >> assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not >> against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T >> has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he >> might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. >> >> >> >> But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering >> it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is >> my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to >> tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he >> observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the >> works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely >> not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the >> right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my >> story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil >> called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one >> time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I >> call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that >> it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin >> by the grace of G-D alone. >> >> >> >> By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he >> choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that >> amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even >> the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace >> upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second >> level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds >> of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not >> permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was >> the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And >> what was that thread at least in my story? >> >> >> >> It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the >> Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having >> the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from >> you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. >> >> >> >> Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear >> it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, >> but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who >> walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. >> >> >> >> CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with >> the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if >> you will. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food >> . >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/7f90c866/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 5 23:54:54 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 04:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <662351.53943.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <662351.53943.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <060620080454.21869.4848C31D000741FE0000556D22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Shalom Tracy, Thanks, I'll check out the scripture references. What I was really trying to get at though is the concept of Melech HaMoschiach. A couple of years ago when I began rethinking my own beliefs I had to come to terms with this concept. I couldn't find a satisfactory answer in Christian doctrine because whenever you ask that question you get a circular answer (Jesus is Messiah and Messiah is Jesus). So I began looking into the Hebrew understanding and I found many different opinions. In fact, the concept of Melech HaMoschiach is very rarely spoken of in Jewish commentary. You can find many references to messiah in general, but the concept of a King Messiah is hard to nail down. I know that a strong case can be made for such an entity by tracing through the scriptures, I've listened to Ross do it several times. But my point is that so far, I have found that if you ask ten people, you will get ten answers. I was just trying to point out that it is not as well understood as we may think. Brachot my friend. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Shalom John, I suppose that the first indication, and it is really a nutshell statement: Genesis 3:15 Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Isaiah Chapters 11, 49, & 53, 61 are all parts of that equation. Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:48 PM Gang, I guess I'm still rather confused regarding some of the terms we tend to toss around on the list. Sorry if I confused anyone. The term Lord (Hebrew: Adon) is used in scripture in addressing HaShem and for men. So, in saying the Lord G-d, I try to distinguish between an anointed man and the One and Only G-d. What is everyone's understanding of WHAT the 'Lord Messiah' is supposed to be? I'm not asking WHO right now. I'm asking WHAT is the 'Lord Messiah' supposed to accomplish according to the scriptures? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks James. I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James, I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either. Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first? Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected? I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews. I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles. In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it. Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon. Your Brother, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is no t necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse ? This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.& nbsp; This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/2ad212ba/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 23:55:50 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <0b5501c8c77d$34e56f30$9eb04d90$@com> Message-ID: <551687.54093.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello Patty,   I find Paul to be an extremely humble person, "claiming to be the least of the saints". He does say that he was given revelations concerning Yeshua's death and resurrection, and he teaches about the realities and implications behind it. If one notices closely in the Book of Acts though, Paul spent years in study and counsel among other "prophets and teachers" and also submitted his teaching for inspection before Peter and James. I see Paul as a major "pen" of this corporate body of Netsarim Jews.   In Jewish studies, there are different levels of interpretation - from the plain meaning of a text, to the various implications of the text. I'm sure you're familiar with PaRDeS, which is the term used in for the 4 levels of interpretation of the Torah. You find these various levels within the Netsarim Testimony.   Blessings be upon your trip to Israel!!   Tracy   --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote: From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:29 PM Hi, I am of the current understanding, and I am open to correction, that Paul used his ?vision? as a sort of qualifier that his message was equal, if not greater than, that of the remaining disciples, i.e. he did not witness the message of Yeshua in person, but was ?given? a better understanding directly from the risen Christ..   Patty     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast   I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him.   This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb.   Most interesting...   James     On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus.   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM     No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________  _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080605/c5f115d2/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 6 00:04:01 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:04:01 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <060620080504.2515.4848C540000B2B66000009D322230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey guys, I understand. Most of us just put in disclaimers when we send something instructional that we don't fully agree with. I think we're all gettting thicker skinned though. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" : -------------- Hey John: Theres a few interesting things on there. I guess along with not wanting to offend, we hold back because we do not want others to think we agree with every link we might send. Does that make since? Chris and Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:44 AM, wrote: Hey Chris and Amber, Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's getting harder to do every day. Jump in. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" : -------------- Hey Betty: This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. www.aramaicNTtruth.org We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time to look up the references at this point? I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it . But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/7d42d858/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 00:13:07 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:13:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] YAVAN. In-Reply-To: <483F2287.4010900@westnet.com.au> References: <483F2287.4010900@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Joe: Thanks for this! We really enjoyed this! Chris and Amber 2008/5/29 JOE INDOMENICO : > Shalom Chaverim, > > I have attached an article by a dear close Italian friend of mine who has > converted to Orthodox Judaism. She wrote this article for our local Hebrew > congregation. I have been looking for it for days, ever since Kim asked the > question about the significance of the number seven. There is some very > useful information contained in this article. When considering the contents > please refer to : > > *??* ???????, ???????????, ????????, ??????????; ????-???????, ??????? > ???????? ??????? ????. *12* Return to the stronghold, ye prisoners of > hope; even to-day do I declare that I will render double unto thee. *??* ????-?????????? > ??? ????????, ?????? ????????? ?????????, ????????????? ???????? ???????, > ???-????????? ?????; ?????????????, ???????? ????????. *13* For I bend * > Judah* for Me, I fill the bow with *Ephraim*; and I will stir up thy sons, > O Zion, against thy sons, O *Javan,* and will make thee as the sword of a > mighty man. *??* ??????? ???????? ???????, ??????? ???????? ??????; > ???????? ?????? ??????????? ???????, ???????? ??????????? ???????. *14*And the LORD shall be seen over them, and His arrow shall go forth as the > lightning; and the Lord GOD will blow the horn, and will go with whirlwinds > of the south. *??* ?????? ????????, ????? ????????, ????????? ?????????? > ???????-?????, ???????? ????? ??????-?????; ?????????, > ???????????--????????????, ?????????. *15* The LORD of hosts will defend > them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they > shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like > the basins, like the corners of the altar. *??* ???????????? ?????? > ??????????, ???????? ??????--??????? ??????: ????, ???????-?????, > ?????????????, ???-?????????. *16* And the LORD their God shall save them > in that day as the flock of His people; for they shall be as the stones of a > crown, glittering over His land. *??* ???? ???-???????, > ?????-????????--??????, ??????????, ??????????, ???????? ?????????. *17*For how great is their goodness, and how great is their beauty! Corn shall > make the young men flourish, and new wine the maids. > > May this article bless you. > > Shalom v'Ahavat > JOE. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/e32240d8/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 00:29:18 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:29:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' In-Reply-To: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > Ok....im gona try a reply here, > > I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early > life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea > out of that mindset. > > Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange > children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week > she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately > for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (*her > words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other > day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well > dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to > cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' > and they move on to the next person"....(*based on the doctrine that > "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). *I am truly blessed > to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, > and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for > all. (can I say that?). > I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much > prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS > (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken > during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man > that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an > influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! > > *Just trying to fit it all together....* > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Pat Robbins > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into > seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see > this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more > noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, > who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. > reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I > recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from > school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you > know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS > THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that > his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he > answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought > there was blood in that candy. > > I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything > to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern > Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of > teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do > believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would > expect to see him in most Scriptures. > > > Love, > > Pat > > > *From:* Jessica > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > *Hi Hanoch,* > *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* *"What > *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be > 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed > in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words > did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah > of HaShem? * > *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of > Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though > dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in > every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the > planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he > definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short > before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the > trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he > had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * > *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit > Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was > already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying > to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. > * > *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. > **"**Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really > appreciate it. Toda!" *Does that help?* > *Kindest regards,* > *Jessica* > *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo > dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a > 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* > ** > ** > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > Hey Jessica, > > I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been > struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed > some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which > being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to > be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In > other words, why MUST he be 'there?' > > Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our > history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), > that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in > the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of > G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of > Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of > history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for > our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be > viewed as a teacher of Torah? > > I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different > religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see > where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb > either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me see it > from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! > *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* > > **** > > > ------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/302b0eaf/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 00:42:32 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:42:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM : Jerusalem the Animation In-Reply-To: <483FA962.9030100@westnet.com.au> References: <483FA962.9030100@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks for this! We have his CD in the van right now! The kids love it! Chris Fordham 2008/5/30 JOE INDOMENICO : > SHABBAT SHALOM CHAVERIM. > > *?* ????????, ??????? ????????????; ??????????, ??????????. *6* Pray > for the peace of Jerusalem; may they prosper that love thee > > Shabbat Shalom v' Ahavat. > JOE. > > http://yosstek.com/jerusalem/player.htm > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/b9d93ad0/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 00:57:59 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:57:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aye, Covenant Now! In-Reply-To: <200805270811.m4R8BlV5008502@mail106c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200805270811.m4R8BlV5008502@mail106c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:11 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Gang, > > It is time to vote! > > I am not even waiting for responses to Ross' Azariyah posting and my reply > to it.. I am asking ALL of you to hit reply, and *PUT NO COMMENT in the > text portion*. You can comment on it later in another posting. If you are > joining the Covenant among ourselves to seek G-d as Asa's people did, in > *"And they entered into a covenant, to seek the LORD God of their fathers > with all their heart and with all our soul." (II Chron. 12:12), > > then just hit the reply button, so that we can all see the people who are > entering this covenant. Since you are NOT commenting in the text portion of > the email, it will be easy for us all to delete the Aye responses. Be sure > to write repsonses in an another email, by responding to my prior email on " > Azariah's prophecy, Covenant Now!" > > *Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/b4066b2b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 01:26:13 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:26:13 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com> <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> Message-ID: Hey Patty: I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before and only made it about 8 months. My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly question. Amber On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: > *Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but > turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a > dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are > you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified > and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem > is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with > the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)* > *Shalom* > *Jessica* > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Patty > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM > *Subject:* RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the > animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any > slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today > are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac > without realizing where it came from. *"If slaughterhouses had glass > walls, everyone** **would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 * > ** > > Love & Blessings, > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? > My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me > if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and > should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I > believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are > better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we > are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our > appetites for meat. > > I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know > that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they > are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a > righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's > chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently > waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted > down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their > life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in > most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before > death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has > taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least > possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have > the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does > not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death > either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is > totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher > eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of > their G-d. > > Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing > a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, > portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did > it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie > we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! > > If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, > would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life > for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life > in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, > did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the > New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this > straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the > truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand > it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first > repented of the sin. > > Cornie > > > > Pat Robbins wrote: > > Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid going > there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We are the > repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the detour off > His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I think that if we > have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and > most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree > together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly > defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. However, to > believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, > is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem telling me that it > is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and > give me life. > > > > I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in > all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster > child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's > hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; > therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really > concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. > > > > Love, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. > Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul > was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write > him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed > blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years > removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I > mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not > have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man > where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just > does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on > the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I > think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and > to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor > as ourselves. > > > > And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt > offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those > same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah > destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the > same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, > and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans > killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who > took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be > honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's > Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. *Just kidding*. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/55a590be/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 01:32:32 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:32:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Pat! Have you ever read or heard of the book called "The 16 crucified Messiahs"? A friend of ours had this book and what you said reminded me of it. Amber On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Hi Clyde, > > I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be > taken to remove the curse of death through sin. Again, I see this > precept in paganism, but not in Torah. > > Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as > compared to Christian practices. Mithracism was just one of the many cults > of paganism. However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is > the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, > which means Lord of the Covenant. We see this referred to in Judges 8:33. > This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for > our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different > titles. Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a > regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that > was torn asunder. Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, > whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world. > Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, > implying removal of sin and the curse. In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," > worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as > a sacrifice. There are many more such examples. > > It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were > confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan > religions. I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed > blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is > to us. Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted. The > suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions. We see this > behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz. > > I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the > necessary shedding of human blood. I just can't see it. In Torah, we are > given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us. He tells > us exactly how to do what He wants us to do. He's just not ambiguous. If > He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where > we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about > it in very great detail. It would rank so far above how to clean a house of > leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on > the Sabbath. He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and > forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and > Deuteronomy 14:21. So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very > specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements. I truly can't > see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference. > > And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the > possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal of the curse of > death. Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge > of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place. And *your covenant > with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand > *, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be > trodden down by it." But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are > the L-RD.....*and You give life to all*...." Ezekiel assures us that it > is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life: > "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and > keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, *he shall > surely live, he shall not die.* None of his transgressions that he has > committed shall be remembered against him: *in his righteousness that he > has done he shall live."* Ezekiel 18:21-22 > > I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so > contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look > so very carefully. If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in > error. > > Love to all of you, > > Pat > > > > > *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Lamb > > GO PATTY!!!!!! This is so outstanding. You've said so much in just a > couple of lines. I'm in awe! Redemption comes through Torah, and that is > what Yeshua taught. He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught > them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!! MARVELOUS!!!!!! > > Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really > can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing. That > strikes me as being so completely foreign. The word, "cannibal," comes from > "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal. This is because the priests of > Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their > despicable god. In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They > joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead." I > just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such > barbarism, the antithesis of Torah. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I > just can't see him doing it. > > Thank you so much, Patty, > > Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of > Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something > that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out > of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and > Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is > not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled > with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the > Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over > of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating > its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the > Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might > be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from > the original Pass-over. The original Pass-over had nothing to do with > taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua > was for that very purpose I think. > > But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way > there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God > written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that > accomplished? 2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of > stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into > eternal life, keep the commandments of God. Any way that's my two cents. > > CB > > > > ------------------------------ > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/10dc390a/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jun 6 02:49:10 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:49:10 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom. Message-ID: <4848EBF6.1070905@westnet.com.au> Shabbat Shalom. Warmest best wishes for a Holy Shabbat from the land down under. This is a favourite Shabbat song usually sung in the Synagogue but with a Sephardic ladino twist. May we all enjoy the rest of HaShem as we prepare for Mattan Torah Shavuot. Shabbat Shalom JOE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78nGYFopaAI&feature=related From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jun 6 04:53:07 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:53:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Message-ID: <200806060953.m569r4UG004671@mail2514.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/c99b26a4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Confession Prayer.doc Type: application/msword Size: 72704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/c99b26a4/attachment.doc From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 07:51:29 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:51:29 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Hi Amber: My understanding you and I have in common a very dear friend in Jeanne Rees. She speaks so well of you and your understanding of the truth of G-D. I want to make a few comments in regard to Rav Sha'ul. As typical of the Rabbi's they assume what is already known, and then build on top of that without reiterating what is already know. If we do not know what is already known that is being built upon we are left in the dark. Rev Sha'ul takes for granted what has already been taught and makes correction where something is misunderstood. This is one of the difficulties in understanding Rav Sha'ul. I want to suggest that in Galatians chapter 2, and 3, where works of the Law is contrasted to the faith of Yeshua messiah, is where Christian scholars in my view misinterpret - and read works of the Law as the covenant at Mount Sinai. Now, here is the other interpretation,My interpretation and each will have to decide if the scholars have got it right or if I has got it correct. This is where the rubber meets the road. If the Christian scholars have it right, Sha'ul rejects the covenant at Sinai then we have every right to reject Sha'ul. If I have it correct then all of the positive and Torah affirming texts must be accepted by Sha'ul, and there are a great many of these Torah affirming texts. My contention is that when the fence around the Torah was built by those who sat in Moses seat to read the Torah and the Prophets, they added laws through their traditions, some which broke the very commandments of G-D they were seeking to preserve. Secondly as there was always two levels of justification. First in foremost whoever and whenever G-D chose a man and later a nation it was always by the grace of G-D alone. But once G-D bestows his grace upon whomsoever he wills, then the obligation of the ones that grace is bestowed is to keep the commandments of G-D. Now that is simple and does not take a several letters after ones name to understand. This brings us then to the works of the Law that Sha'ul is against. The party of the Pharisees were just as zealous as Sha'ul was before he destroyed the Pharisaical enactments out of his live and practice. The enactments of the Pharisees the Takanote - crossed over the line from obedience to the Torah of G-D to actually in some cases breaking the commandments. This was the contention of Yeshua. I take when Sha'ul states if he picks back up these enactments of the Pharisees that sat in Moses seat, he makes himself a transgressor. And also to pick them back up would make Yeshua a minister of sin. and to that Sha'ul says, G-D forbid. Now here is the bottom line and goes to the core of the issue. If Sha'ul is contending as I contend that he is, the works of the Law he is against are the Pharisaical enactments that Yehsua was agasint.If that contention of Sha'ul is what I contend as well, then all of the positive Torah affirming texts in Romans must rule everything else Sha'ul teaches. It is a simple as that. I see it so clearly, but to get across to others that have been indoctrinated by the Christian churches is like trying to penetrate iron. It seems to me, and I do not understand why, but some G-D opens their minds to see and others stay blind. To make my contention clear it is perhaps going to take a chapter by chapter and verse by verse which take a great amount of effort, but I have been told that I must do it. Galatians is the single book that if Sha'ul is taken as I do, he is Torah observant and teaches Torah observance. If he is taken as Christian scholars take him, then Sha'ul is an apostate to the Torah of G-D. and I add to that G-D forbid. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/1a8b8aab/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "chris fordham" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:36:02 -0400 Size: 36922 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/1a8b8aab/attachment.mht From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jun 6 08:01:49 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:01:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot In-Reply-To: <200806060953.m569r4UG004671@mail2514.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Dear Steve, Thank you so very much for giving us the words of this heartfelt prayer! I have already joined you and others and will continue to pray and keep these words in my heart, especially the next few days as we approach Shavuot. I appreciate you so very much for who you are and blessed to have been brought across your path.we have indeed all been brought together in this day and time.may we join together in this prayerl Yesterday, I sent out a link to a post that has a beautiful and inspiring 90 second video called, A Day at the Western Wall. I would encourage all you can to take this brief time and watch it. http://www.aish.com/theWall.asp B'Ahava v'Shabbat Shalom! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:53 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Dear Friends, I apologize for being so late with this prayer. Am asking all of you to set yourselves aside in the three days before Shavuot, and go before Our God with this attached intercessory, "confessing prayer." If you have congregations of chavurot / small group fellowships, please take this to them, and lead them in this prayer of UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR RETURNING ISRAEL AT THIS TIME. We are expressly told that we are to "confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers." ( Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Hos. 5:15, Lam. 5:7). It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the stated purposes in the prayer. I know more could be added, but it is 2:45 AM, and I have run out of time, more ways than one. You can send me additional references, if you wish. Please print it out and go to G-d with it. It is our task, as the remnant intercessors for our peoples. The time has arrived. We are facing a great disaster on the horizon, and we need to do a Pinchas-like intercession NOW for the sake of our peoples. DO IT NOW! Yours for the restoration, Steve Mathe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/75030738/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Jun 6 08:14:35 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:14:35 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <090F1F8806DE42BFA6EC67C2D5BBA89D@bettygivin> Hi Amber and John, Thanks for the link, and may I second John's words. Speak your hearts, and please don't worry about offending. From reading the posts, I am sure you are aware that we are all not in agreement, and that is okay. We are dialoguing, talking to one another in these last days as the prophet Malachi admonished us to do. The same goes for passing on a link. When you pass something on accompanied by a comment such as the one you made, anyone who reads it will know that you do not agree with everything on it. I see you followed John's advice and jumped in last night and that is great! I am not going to have time today to read much.I am supposed to be working on my computer now, not reading email.so got to get going.but hope to catch up. Thanks and an early Shabbat Shalom to you and yours, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Hey John: Theres a few interesting things on there. I guess along with not wanting to offend, we hold back because we do not want others to think we agree with every link we might send. Does that make since? Chris and Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:44 AM, wrote: Hey Chris and Amber, Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's getting harder to do every day. Jump in. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" : -------------- Hey Betty: This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. www.aramaicNTtruth.org We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass.then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have.don't have the time to look up the references at this point. I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved.they are loving and forgive so quickly.come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list.so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it . But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/cc9a7424/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 4 02:20:26 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 00:20:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Ike's Warning Message-ID: <200806040720.m547KNDL025385@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31fc410.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39129 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31fc44c.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48044 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment-0001.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31fc47e.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 59736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment-0002.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31fc4ce.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 66043 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment-0003.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 31fc514.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 39153 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080604/b35536e1/attachment-0004.jpg From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 08:34:11 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:34:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Message-ID: Thank you so much for this, Steve, and for all the tireless work you continually do on behalf of your brothers and sisters that we may be Regathered. May HaSHem hold you in the Palm of His Hand always, protect you, guide you, grant you health and well-being, and bless you with his Shalom-Shalom. Much love and appreciation, Pat Subject: Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Dear Friends, I apologize for being so late with this prayer. Am asking all of you to set yourselves aside in the three days before Shavuot, and go before Our God with this attached intercessory, "confessing prayer." If you have congregations of chavurot / small group fellowships, please take this to them, and lead them in this prayer of UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR RETURNING ISRAEL AT THIS TIME. We are expressly told that we are to "confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers." ( Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Hos. 5:15, Lam. 5:7). It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the stated purposes in the prayer. I know more could be added, but it is 2:45 AM, and I have run out of time, more ways than one. You can send me additional references, if you wish. Please print it out and go to G-d with it. It is our task, as the remnant intercessors for our peoples. The time has arrived. We are facing a great disaster on the horizon, and we need to do a Pinchas-like intercession NOW for the sake of our peoples. DO IT NOW! Yours for the restoration, Steve Mathe If any of you are in Jerusalem, please go to the Kotel and pray this prayer and add your own words for our peoples before Shavuot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/3a824b9c/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jun 6 09:22:54 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:22:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <551687.54093.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <0b5501c8c77d$34e56f30$9eb04d90$@com> <551687.54093.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0c5601c8c7e0$d11cdab0$73569010$@com> Hi Tracy, Thank you, this is truly the "mystery" of Paul. It may be impossible to find out what he actually believed, taught and wrote. We will just have to read him carefully and use Torah as our measure. Thank you also for you blessing on our trip! I hope we can do some music together later this summer. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:56 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Hello Patty, I find Paul to be an extremely humble person, "claiming to be the least of the saints". He does say that he was given revelations concerning Yeshua's death and resurrection, and he teaches about the realities and implications behind it. If one notices closely in the Book of Acts though, Paul spent years in study and counsel among other "prophets and teachers" and also submitted his teaching for inspection before Peter and James. I see Paul as a major "pen" of this corporate body of Netsarim Jews. In Jewish studies, there are different levels of interpretation - from the plain meaning of a text, to the various implications of the text. I'm sure you're familiar with PaRDeS, which is the term used in for the 4 levels of interpretation of the Torah. You find these various levels within the Netsarim Testimony. Blessings be upon your trip to Israel!! Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Patty wrote: From: Patty Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:29 PM Hi, I am of the current understanding, and I am open to correction, that Paul used his "vision" as a sort of qualifier that his message was equal, if not greater than, that of the remaining disciples, i.e. he did not witness the message of Yeshua in person, but was "given" a better understanding directly from the risen Christ.. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn't believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain "words" which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar - nor is he a fool. >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun - or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ".the greater light." and the moon is ".the lesser light." (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents - in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that "the beast" is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, "the beast," as it is called, assumes a reverse [1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus - but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. _____ [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/614f6dd5/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jun 6 09:33:41 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:33:41 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com> <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> Message-ID: <0c6701c8c7e2$53575db0$fa061910$@com> Hi there Amber, I don't think this is a silly question at all. I am of the thought that Yeshua never said such a thing to begin with, but that is was an addition by the church to support the eucharist doctrine. It is highly doubtful that Yeshua would have made reference to such an abominable practice - even as an allegory. How are you doing with your veggie diet? I am trying to take it one step further by eating raw, aka the "Living Diet". Love to You and Your Family, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:26 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hey Patty: I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before and only made it about 8 months. My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly question. Amber On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs) Shalom Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac without realizing where it came from. "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our appetites for meat. I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of their G-d. Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first repented of the sin. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and give me life. I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. Love, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves. And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding. _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/78a759ef/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 09:38:12 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:38:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net><908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net><908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: EXCELLENT QUESTION FOR US, JOHN! Ezekiel 37:1-28 is key to the answer of what Mashiach will accomplish: When the dead are raised, and the Tribes regathered to His Land, and are no more defiling themselves with their idols, we will know Mashiach is here. When Judah and Israel are reunited into one nation again, living together in the land, with one king over them ("And David, My servant, shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd," vs 24), we will know Mashiach is here. When HaShem has made an "everlasting covenant of peace" with us, and has multiplied us, we will know Mashiach is here. When the Whole House of Yisrael is sanctified before the nations, because His tabernacle/sanctuary is in our midst for evermore, we will know Mashiach is here. Avigail From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:48 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Gang, I guess I'm still rather confused regarding some of the terms we tend to toss around on the list. What is everyone's understanding of WHAT the 'Lord Messiah' is supposed to be? I'm not asking WHO right now. I'm asking WHAT is the 'Lord Messiah' supposed to accomplish according to the scriptures? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks James. I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe. Love & Prayers, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James, I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either. Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first? Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected? I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews. I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles. In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it. Such experiences have helped kept me from "swinging to the extreme end of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon. Your Brother, Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas , California (summer 1992). He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode. I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience. I didn't believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain "words" which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine. I know he is not a liar - nor is he a fool. From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details. When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun - or was it like the light of the silvery Moon. He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16). Of course the Sun is ".the greater light." and the moon is ".the lesser light." (Ge 1:16). We all know what the lesser light represents - in the impersonation posed by the Devil. These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.). The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that "the beast" is an inverted take-off on Jesus. The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings. However, "the beast," as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus. The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance. This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus - but in a comparative sense. There will be great deception. Beware. ---------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear Dear friends: Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is no t necessary to say more in that regard. The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. But then my research took me to Rev 13 that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. CB ---------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ---------------------------------------------------------- [1] reverse - This is a key word. Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.& nbsp; This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse. The "beast" is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/a6e8b103/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 09:49:59 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:49:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: I second John's affirmation, Chris and Amber!!!! PLEASE DON'T BE HESITANT TO SPEAK. We HAVE to dialogue (which is polite for "argue" sometimes!) these things out in order to "GATHER OURSELVES TOGETHER!!!!" We must hear each other and become united, first among ourselves, then with brother Judah, in our service to HaSHem. This is a holy thing we are doing. Much love to you, dear ones, no matter what you may bring to the table for our consideration. May HaSHem guide us to find His Way and His Truth as we so earnestly strive together to follow after Him. Avigail From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Hey Chris and Amber, Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's getting harder to do every day. Jump in. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" : -------------- Hey Betty: This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. www.aramaicNTtruth.org We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. Chris and Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is dialoguing! I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass from the Torah until all had come to pass.then we cannot nullify the Torah, called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have.don't have the time to look up the references at this point. I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, so many of our communication problems would be solved.they are loving and forgive so quickly.come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak of the characteristics of those on this list.so we are indeed blessed! Love and blessings to all, Betty/Elisheva ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, Avigail (Pat) From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained ascendancy. The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it . But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin by the grace of G-D alone. By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And what was that thread at least in my story? It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if you will. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/4ca00519/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 6 09:47:12 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:47:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: References: <362DCABB-4E7B-437E-9C82-34E8210620C3@earthlink.net><908436.74979.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com><060620080348.14178.4848B3970005D2130000376222230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <866603042-1212764136-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1379580280-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thank you Avigail. Hopefully others will help out with this too. John C Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Pat Robbins" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:38:12 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast EXCELLENT QUESTION FOR US, JOHN!? ? Ezekiel 37:1-28 is key to the answer of what Mashiach will accomplish:? ? When the dead are raised, and the Tribes regathered to His Land, and are no more defiling themselves with their idols,?we will know Mashiach is here.? When Judah and Israel are reunited into one?nation again, living?together in the land,?with one king over them ("And David, My servant, shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd," vs 24),?we will know Mashiach is here.? When?HaShem has made an "everlasting covenant of peace"?with us, and has?multiplied us, we will know Mashiach is here.? When?the Whole House of Yisrael is sanctified before the nations,?because His tabernacle/sanctuary is in our midst for evermore, we will know Mashiach is here. ? Avigail?? From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:48 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast Gang, ? I guess I'm still rather confused regarding some of the terms we tend to toss around on the list. ? What is everyone's understanding of WHAT the 'Lord Messiah' is supposed to be?? I'm not asking WHO right now.? I'm asking WHAT is the 'Lord Messiah' supposed to accomplish according to the scriptures? ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne : -------------- Thanks James. ? I too am quite stretched and really need to dwell on some other tasks at hand, and so I'll save it for now. You need to concentrate on your trip. I will be asking HaShem to prosper your trip and to keep you safe. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:32 PM Thanks Tracy. Of course I am not offended and I appreciate you sharing your views and experiences here. My own views on Paul are well known and published and unfortunately, I am not able to take time to delve into such via e-mail right now with the Mt Zion trip in a few days and lots of obligations. I am curious though as to how you identified Paul as Paul in a dream. As for resurrection of the dead, as you know, there is little in the Tanakh about this although in late 2nd Temple times various Jewish groups begin to develop their ideas, Paul being one of them. My understanding is that Paul believed Jesus was a man, but had been transformed into what he calls "a life-giving Spirit," a "second Adam," so yes, in that sense he thought of him as a man, but I would not say "simply a resurrected man," (say, like Lazarus or those in Matthew 27), but the inauguration of a "new creation," the firstborn of "many" to come, transformed from flesh and blood, etc., but you know this of course, 1 Cor 15, etc. I have two articles on the Web that deal fairly extensively with this I can mention here: http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/paul.html Best, James On Jun 5, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom James, ? I'm not offended...and I hope you want be either . ? Is not what you call a "Heavenly Christ" simply a resurrected man? May I ask you a question. Do you believe in a coming resurrection? If so, who do you think will be the first? ? Would Elijah be a "Heavenly Christ" an anointed Mashiach and Prophet? Howbeit - not resurrected? ? I think it quite fitting that there would be a dual 'witness' concerning Yeshua's Resurrection. Especially fitting for one, who was formerly part of the Priestly/Zealot/Sicarri hit squad, to be totally transformed and join the corporate witness of the Netsarim Jews. ? I consider Paul a part of the Netsarim, a perfect companion to the rest of the Apostles who were opposed by the lingering Shammai/Ebionites who were bitterly opposed to the Hillel/Netsarim view concerning the salvation of gentiles. ? In May of 2001, I was given a dream/vision in which Rabbi Sha'ul/Paul stood over me pointing to 2Cor10:4 and said, "Catostrophe is Coming". On the Piano later that week, the "Spirit of Prophecy" came upon me and I began to prophecy concerning the "Catastrophe" that came on September 11, 2001. A week before that "Catostrophe", I was given further warning in a dream/vision concerning a vehicle crashing into the side of a mountain and the mountain fell upon it. ? Such experiences have helped kept me?from "swinging to the extreme end?of the pendulum" as we have journeyed our way out of spiritual Babylon.? ? Your Brother, ? Tracy? ? ? ? --- On Thu, 6/5/08, James Tabor > wrote: From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 3:42 PM I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies ?that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him. This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb. Most interesting... James On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote: Dialogue Friends, ? Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in? San Dimas ,? California?(summer 1992).? He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.? I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.? I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with? Clyde?over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.? I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool. ? From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.? When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.? He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).? Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).? We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by?the Devil.? ? These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled:?Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons?(16pp.).? The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following: ? The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.? The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.? However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse [1]?pattern of Jesus.? The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold. ? [1]?reverse? ?? This is a key word.? Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.? This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words?inverse?and/or?obverse.? The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.? There will be great deception.? Beware. ? ? ---------------- From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ]?On Behalf Of?CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent:?Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?[Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear ? Dear friends: ? Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It?shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is no t necessary to say more in that regard. ? The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground. ? All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending?in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image? ? I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts,?but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one?false Christ? Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing. ? But then my research took me to Rev 13? that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In?symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. ? It is for them that?I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear. ? CB? ? ? ---------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers.?Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food . ---------------- [1]?reverse? ?? This is a key word.? Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.& nbsp; This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words?inverse?and/or?obverse.? The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 10:09:25 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:09:25 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Message-ID: Dear Amber and all: My explanation perhaps will not fit for all, but let me explain from what I observe, and why I observe Yeshua was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The only similarity between the original Passover I observe is death is passed over for the firstborn. Now, how dies that relate to Yeshua. Let me first go to the first and last Adam motifs Was eternal life lost in the first Adam when driven from the Garden lest he take of the tree of eternal life and live forever? And all humankind came from Adam and Eve, and as our parents as they lost access to the tree of life, did we all lose access with them? If you answer no, that there was no need for a last Adam, as the son of Adam, then whatever I say will have no relevance to you. In other words if the last Adam ran the program of Ha Shem for mankind through again and this time unlike the first Adam got it right. If that is accepted then as a son of Adam the last Adam can take the curse from the first Adam that has passed upon all humankind, and take that curse upon the cross. If the goal of the Torah and more specifically the covenant of Sinai if perfectly kept it would have produced the perfect human. This is what Sha'ul is saying that Messiah is the end of the Law, that is the perfection of what the Law was pointing toward. Christianity made a terrible blunder and thought Sha'ul was speaking about the end of the Sinai covenant, rather than what he was really saying Yeshua was the end result of the perfection that the Sinai covenant pointed toward. How the scholars got something so simple mixed up is beyond me. Now, was Yeshua a burnt offering? G-D forbid. Who murdered Yeshua? I did not did any or you? So much for Chromatin doctrine. The Romans carried out the murder, and a corrupt priesthood, and some of the Pharisees were guilty of turning him over to the Romans for crucifixion. Did HaSkem force the priesthood, the certain Pharisees to get Yeshua murdered? Again I say G-D forbid. But it did happen by the hands of evil men. Since that is the case and we might think of it as cause and effect. Can HaShem take the cause of evil men, and change the effect for good? If G-D can then we have the slain Lamb, not by G-D, rather by the hands of evil men. Think of the example of the ancient patriarch Joseph and perhaps what I'm saying will make some sense. My friends like it or not some of the authorities of the Jews at that time sacrificed a human being, and his name was Yeshua. In other words G-D did not sacrifice a human being they did. You all think about that and tell me what you think. Try as I may my eyes let me down, and any spelling error please forgive. Clyde . **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/e0f2d2d0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "chris fordham" Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:26:13 -0400 Size: 27203 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/e0f2d2d0/attachment.mht From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:15:38 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:15:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <12DACA3895A04BE1951626446A8CAEDB@bettygivin> <060620080444.8463.4848C09C000C46270000210F22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: We'll try! Thanks, Chris and Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:44 AM, wrote: > Hey Chris and Amber, > > Thanks for the link, I haven't checked it out yet but I will. > > I just had to comment on your concern about offending someone here. I > won't say it's impossible to offend the list but I'm pretty sure it's > getting harder to do every day. Jump in. > > ;-{)} > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from "chris fordham" < > calbfordham at gmail.com>: -------------- > > Hey Betty: > > This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned > Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different > perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the > "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english > translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass > it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. > > www.aramaicNTtruth.org > > > We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has > to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. > Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. > > Chris and Amber Fordham > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > >> Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is >> very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the >> way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is >> dialoguing! >> >> >> >> I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. >> At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in >> his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a >> lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with >> Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the >> coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass >> from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, >> called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. >> Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time >> to look up the references at this point? >> >> >> >> I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. >> The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who >> have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless >> HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor >> and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have >> often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, >> so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and >> forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak >> of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! >> >> >> >> Love and blessings to all, >> >> >> >> Betty/Elisheva >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Robbins >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much >> for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of >> HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it >> sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to >> do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to >> understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets >> them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is >> ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are >> justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! >> >> >> >> I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that >> it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis >> teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they >> do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of >> G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. >> >> >> >> I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, >> >> >> >> Avigail (Pat) >> >> >> >> *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com >> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM >> >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> Dear friends: >> >> >> >> We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set >> forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was >> picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the >> so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested >> earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before >> him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we >> can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to >> righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret >> it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and >> place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the >> bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained >> ascendancy. >> >> >> >> The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but >> something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the >> main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading >> away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were >> seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the >> Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. >> Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I >> will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these >> added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of >> breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. >> >> >> >> Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if >> you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any >> case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions >> of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that >> Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These >> followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of >> the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat >> and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed >> for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and >> put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua >> did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups >> being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it . >> >> >> >> But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get >> his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried >> to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? >> The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new >> Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. >> Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject >> other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is >> not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by >> Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was >> it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. >> >> >> >> And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The >> Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to >> righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT >> scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not >> clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to >> notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman >> assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not >> against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T >> has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he >> might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. >> >> >> >> But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering >> it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is >> my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to >> tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he >> observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the >> works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely >> not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the >> right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my >> story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil >> called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one >> time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I >> call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that >> it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin >> by the grace of G-D alone. >> >> >> >> By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he >> choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that >> amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even >> the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace >> upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second >> level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds >> of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not >> permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was >> the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And >> what was that thread at least in my story? >> >> >> >> It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the >> Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having >> the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from >> you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. >> >> >> >> Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear >> it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, >> but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who >> walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. >> >> >> >> CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with >> the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if >> you will. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food >> . >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/1d6895f5/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:24:09 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:24:09 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: <0c6701c8c7e2$53575db0$fa061910$@com> References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com> <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> <0c6701c8c7e2$53575db0$fa061910$@com> Message-ID: Hi Patty! Yes, Chris and I are of the same opinion. We are only in the last 6 months or so getting back into reading NT. We wouldn't touch it for a couple of years! It is so polluted! The veggie cleanse is going great! Lots more energy! We are having one cooked veggie a day and the rest raw. Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Patty wrote: > Hi there Amber, > > > > I don't think this is a silly question at all. I am of the thought that > Yeshua never said such a thing to begin with, but that is was an addition by > the church to support the eucharist doctrine. It is highly doubtful that > Yeshua would have made reference to such an abominable practice ? even as an > allegory. > > > > How are you doing with your veggie diet? I am trying to take it one step > further by eating raw, aka the "Living Diet". > > > > Love to You and Your Family, > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *chris fordham > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 2:26 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hey Patty: > > > > I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up > switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. > We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before > and only made it about 8 months. > > > > My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat > blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That > doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly > question. > > > > Amber > > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: > > *Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but > turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a > dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are > you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified > and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem > is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with > the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)* > > *Shalom* > > *Jessica* > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Patty > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM > > *Subject:* RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the > animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any > slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today > are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac > without realizing where it came from. *"If slaughterhouses had glass > walls, everyone** **would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 * > > Love & Blessings, > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? > My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me > if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and > should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I > believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are > better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we > are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our > appetites for meat. > > I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know > that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they > are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a > righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's > chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently > waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted > down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their > life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in > most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before > death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has > taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least > possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have > the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does > not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death > either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is > totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher > eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of > their G-d. > > Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing > a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, > portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did > it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie > we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! > > If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, > would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life > for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life > in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, > did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the > New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this > straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the > truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand > it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first > repented of the sin. > > Cornie > > > > Pat Robbins wrote: > > Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid going > there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We are the > repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the detour off > His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I think that if we > have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and > most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree > together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly > defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. However, to > believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, > is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem telling me that it > is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and > give me life. > > > > I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in > all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster > child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's > hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; > therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really > concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. > > > > Love, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. > Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul > was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write > him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed > blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years > removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I > mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not > have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man > where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just > does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on > the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I > think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and > to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor > as ourselves. > > > > And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt > offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those > same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah > destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the > same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, > and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans > killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who > took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be > honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's > Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. *Just kidding*. > > > ------------------------------ > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/833e6f7f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:29:40 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:29:40 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' In-Reply-To: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/8d5ce5b7/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jun 6 10:32:50 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:32:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0cb401c8c7ea$95fb05b0$c1f11110$@com> Hi Clyde, Using the analogy of your first paragraph, I would like to ask 2 questions: 1. Do you think that anyone prior to the life/death of Yeshua will attain eternal life? 2. Do people still die now that Yeshua has been killed? Blessings, Patty P.S. Congrats on the new puppy! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Dear Amber and all: My explanation perhaps will not fit for all, but let me explain from what I observe, and why I observe Yeshua was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The only similarity between the original Passover I observe is death is passed over for the firstborn. Now, how dies that relate to Yeshua. Let me first go to the first and last Adam motifs Was eternal life lost in the first Adam when driven from the Garden lest he take of the tree of eternal life and live forever? And all humankind came from Adam and Eve, and as our parents as they lost access to the tree of life, did we all lose access with them? If you answer no, that there was no need for a last Adam, as the son of Adam, then whatever I say will have no relevance to you. In other words if the last Adam ran the program of Ha Shem for mankind through again and this time unlike the first Adam got it right. If that is accepted then as a son of Adam the last Adam can take the curse from the first Adam that has passed upon all humankind, and take that curse upon the cross. If the goal of the Torah and more specifically the covenant of Sinai if perfectly kept it would have produced the perfect human. This is what Sha'ul is saying that Messiah is the end of the Law, that is the perfection of what the Law was pointing toward. Christianity made a terrible blunder and thought Sha'ul was speaking about the end of the Sinai covenant, rather than what he was really saying Yeshua was the end result of the perfection that the Sinai covenant pointed toward. How the scholars got something so simple mixed up is beyond me. Now, was Yeshua a burnt offering? G-D forbid. Who murdered Yeshua? I did not did any or you? So much for Chromatin doctrine. The Romans carried out the murder, and a corrupt priesthood, and some of the Pharisees were guilty of turning him over to the Romans for crucifixion. Did HaSkem force the priesthood, the certain Pharisees to get Yeshua murdered? Again I say G-D forbid. But it did happen by the hands of evil men. Since that is the case and we might think of it as cause and effect. Can HaShem take the cause of evil men, and change the effect for good? If G-D can then we have the slain Lamb, not by G-D, rather by the hands of evil men. Think of the example of the ancient patriarch Joseph and perhaps what I'm saying will make some sense. My friends like it or not some of the authorities of the Jews at that time sacrificed a human being, and his name was Yeshua. In other words G-D did not sacrifice a human being they did. You all think about that and tell me what you think. Try as I may my eyes let me down, and any spelling error please forgive. Clyde . _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/65e05e07/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:34:56 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:34:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Amber. I'm not at all familiar with that book, but will certainly look for it. ~ Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hey Pat! Have you ever read or heard of the book called "The 16 crucified Messiahs"? A friend of ours had this book and what you said reminded me of it. Amber On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Clyde, I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin. Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah. Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices. Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism. However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant. We see this referred to in Judges 8:33. This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles. Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder. Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world. Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse. In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice. There are many more such examples. It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions. I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us. Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted. The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions. We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz. I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood. I just can't see it. In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us. He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do. He's just not ambiguous. If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail. It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath. He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21. So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements. I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference. And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal of the curse of death. Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it." But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...." Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life: "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he has done he shall live." Ezekiel 18:21-22 I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully. If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error. Love to all of you, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb GO PATTY!!!!!! This is so outstanding. You've said so much in just a couple of lines. I'm in awe! Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught. He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!! MARVELOUS!!!!!! Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing. That strikes me as being so completely foreign. The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal. This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god. In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead." I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it. Thank you so much, Patty, Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over. The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think. But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished? 2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God. Any way that's my two cents. CB ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/1ab0851d/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:38:21 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:38:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Clyde! We have two books by Avi Ben Mordechai; one is named "Galatians" and the other "Messiah". When he wrote "Messiah" he did not believe Yeshua was Messiah but in "Galatians" he has switch his perspective or beliefs. The Galatians book goes into some of the detail you do. Both of them are a great read. I feel Shaul was absolutely Torah observant and the translations are just biased. Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:09 AM, wrote: > Dear Amber and all: > > My explanation perhaps will not fit for all, but let me explain from what I > observe, and why I observe Yeshua was the lamb slain from the foundation of > the world. The only similarity between the original Passover I observe is > death is passed over for the firstborn. Now, how dies that relate to Yeshua. > Let me first go to the first and last Adam motifs Was eternal life lost in > the first Adam when driven from the Garden lest he take of the tree of > eternal life and live forever? And all humankind came from Adam and Eve, and > as our parents as they lost access to the tree of life, did we all lose > access with them? If you answer no, that there was no need for a last Adam, > as the son of Adam, then whatever I say will have no relevance to you. > > In other words if the last Adam ran the program of Ha Shem for mankind > through again and this time unlike the first Adam got it right. If that is > accepted then as a son of Adam the last Adam can take the curse from the > first Adam that has passed upon all humankind, and take that curse upon the > cross. If the goal of the Torah and more specifically the covenant of Sinai > if perfectly kept it would have produced the perfect human. This is what > Sha'ul is saying that Messiah is the end of the Law, that is the perfection > of what the Law was pointing toward. Christianity made a terrible blunder > and thought Sha'ul was speaking about the end of the Sinai covenant, rather > than what he was really saying Yeshua was the end result of the perfection > that the Sinai covenant pointed toward. How the scholars got something so > simple mixed up is beyond me. > > Now, was Yeshua a burnt offering? G-D forbid. Who murdered Yeshua? I did > not did any or you? So much for Chromatin doctrine. The Romans carried out > the murder, and a corrupt priesthood, and some of the Pharisees were guilty > of turning him over to the Romans for crucifixion. Did HaSkem force the > priesthood, the certain Pharisees to get Yeshua murdered? Again I say G-D > forbid. But it did happen by the hands of evil men. Since that is the case > and we might think of it as cause and effect. Can HaShem take the cause of > evil men, and change the effect for good? If G-D can then we have the slain > Lamb, not by G-D, rather by the hands of evil men. Think of the example of > the ancient patriarch Joseph and perhaps what I'm saying will make some > sense. My friends like it or not some of the authorities of the Jews at that > time sacrificed a human being, and his name was Yeshua. In other words G-D > did not sacrifice a human being they did. You all think about that and tell > me what you think. Try as I may my eyes let me down, and any spelling error > please forgive. > > Clyde . > > > > ------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" > on AOL Food > . > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "chris fordham" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 02:26:13 -0400 > Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > Hey Patty: > > I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up > switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. > We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before > and only made it about 8 months. > > My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat > blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That > doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly > question. > > Amber > > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: > >> *Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but >> turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a >> dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are >> you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified >> and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem >> is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with >> the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)* >> *Shalom* >> *Jessica* >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Patty >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM >> *Subject:* RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb >> >> Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the >> animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any >> slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today >> are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac >> without realizing where it came from. *"If slaughterhouses had glass >> walls, everyone** **would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 >> *** >> >> Love & Blessings, >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Cornie Reimer >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb >> >> >> >> Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? >> My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me >> if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and >> should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I >> believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are >> better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we >> are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our >> appetites for meat. >> >> I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know >> that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they >> are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a >> righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's >> chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently >> waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted >> down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their >> life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in >> most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before >> death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has >> taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least >> possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have >> the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does >> not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death >> either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is >> totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher >> eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of >> their G-d. >> >> Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing >> a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, >> portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did >> it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie >> we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! >> >> If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, >> would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life >> for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life >> in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, >> did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the >> New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this >> straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the >> truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand >> it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first >> repented of the sin. >> >> Cornie >> >> >> >> Pat Robbins wrote: >> >> Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid >> going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We >> are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the >> detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I >> think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even >> our dearest and most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and >> Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot >> see it clearly defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. >> However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me >> eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem >> telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, >> forgives me, and give me life. >> >> >> >> I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in >> all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster >> child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's >> hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; >> therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really >> concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. >> >> >> >> Love, >> >> >> >> Pat >> >> >> >> *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM >> >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> *Subject:* Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb >> >> >> >> Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. >> Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul >> was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write >> him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed >> blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years >> removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I >> mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not >> have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man >> where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just >> does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on >> the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I >> think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and >> to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor >> as ourselves. >> >> >> >> And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt >> offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those >> same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah >> destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the >> same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, >> and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans >> killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who >> took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be >> honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's >> Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. *Just kidding*. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites >> at AOL Food >> . >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG. >> >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/3c38f399/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:44:21 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:44:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role In-Reply-To: References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, > > You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of > seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I > also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to > love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have > come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his > name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his > memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach > us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. > > Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each > other. > > Pat > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > Hey Pat: > > I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a > Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J > word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a > verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it > down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not > confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! > > Chris and Amber > > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > >> Ok....im gona try a reply here, >> >> I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early >> life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea >> out of that mindset. >> >> Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange >> children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week >> she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately >> for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (*her >> words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other >> day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well >> dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to >> cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' >> and they move on to the next person"....(*based on the doctrine that >> "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). *I am truly blessed >> to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, >> and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for >> all. (can I say that?). >> I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much >> prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS >> (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken >> during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man >> that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an >> influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! >> >> *Just trying to fit it all together....* >> dave >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Pat Robbins >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >> >> Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into >> seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see >> this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more >> noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, >> who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. >> reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I >> recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from >> school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you >> know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS >> THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that >> his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he >> answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought >> there was blood in that candy. >> >> I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything >> to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern >> Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of >> teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do >> believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would >> expect to see him in most Scriptures. >> >> >> Love, >> >> Pat >> >> >> *From:* Jessica >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >> >> *Hi Hanoch,* >> *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* *"What >> *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be >> 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets >> succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In >> other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the >> pure Torah of HaShem? * >> *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of >> Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though >> dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in >> every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the >> planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he >> definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short >> before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the >> trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he >> had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * >> *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit >> Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was >> already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying >> to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. >> * >> *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be >> denied. **"**Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really >> appreciate it. Toda!" *Does that help?* >> *Kindest regards,* >> *Jessica* >> *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo >> dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a >> 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* >> ** >> ** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >> >> Hey Jessica, >> >> I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been >> struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed >> some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which >> being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to >> be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In >> other words, why MUST he be 'there?' >> >> Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our >> history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), >> that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in >> the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of >> G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of >> Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of >> history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for >> our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be >> viewed as a teacher of Torah? >> >> I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different >> religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see >> where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb >> either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me see it >> from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! >> *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* >> >> **** >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites >> at AOL Food >> . >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/daa907fc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:05:56 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:05:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role In-Reply-To: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. A fellow searcher, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/935d4daf/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:18:39 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:18:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Clyde! Yes! I love Jeanne! We struggle with some of the same issues back in forth! It's nice to know someone has confidence in me! Sometimes I wonder about myself and just pray HaShem will show us a clear path to lead our children. The only real path I see right now is Torah. What a lot of changes our family has went through in the last five years! Yes, I understand what you are saying about Shaul. I feel Shaul was zealous for the teachings of Hillel, Gamaliel and Shammai. Didn't he argue all of them? At least two of them, right? How could he be against Torah and keep Torah at the same time! This world is getting smaller the longer I'm on this dialogue! Ha! Ha! Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 8:51 AM, wrote: > Hi Amber: > > My understanding you and I have in common a very dear friend in Jeanne > Rees. She speaks so well of you and your understanding of the truth of G-D. > I want to make a few comments in regard to Rav Sha'ul. As typical of the > Rabbi's they assume what is already known, and then build on top of that > without reiterating what is already know. If we do not know what is already > known that is being built upon we are left in the dark. Rev Sha'ul takes for > granted what has already been taught and makes correction where something is > misunderstood. This is one of the difficulties in understanding Rav Sha'ul. > > I want to suggest that in Galatians chapter 2, and 3, where works of the > Law is contrasted to the faith of Yeshua messiah, is where Christian > scholars in my view misinterpret - and read works of the Law as the covenant > at Mount Sinai. Now, here is the other interpretation,My interpretation and > each will have to decide if the scholars have got it right or if I has got > it correct. This is where the rubber meets the road. If the Christian > scholars have it right, Sha'ul rejects the covenant at Sinai then we have > every right to reject Sha'ul. If I have it correct then all of the positive > and Torah affirming texts must be accepted by Sha'ul, and there are a great > many of these Torah affirming texts. > > My contention is that when the fence around the Torah was built by those > who sat in Moses seat to read the Torah and the Prophets, they added laws > through their traditions, some which broke the very commandments of G-D they > were seeking to preserve. Secondly as there was always two levels of > justification. First in foremost whoever and whenever G-D chose a man and > later a nation it was always by the grace of G-D alone. But once G-D bestows > his grace upon whomsoever he wills, then the obligation of the ones that > grace is bestowed is to keep the commandments of G-D. Now that is simple and > does not take a several letters after ones name to understand. > > This brings us then to the works of the Law that Sha'ul is against. The > party of the Pharisees were just as zealous as Sha'ul was before he > destroyed the Pharisaical enactments out of his live and practice. The > enactments of the Pharisees the Takanote - crossed over the line from > obedience to the Torah of G-D to actually in some cases breaking the > commandments. This was the contention of Yeshua. I take when Sha'ul states > if he picks back up these enactments of the Pharisees that sat in Moses > seat, he makes himself a transgressor. And also to pick them back up would > make Yeshua a minister of sin. and to that Sha'ul says, G-D forbid. > > Now here is the bottom line and goes to the core of the issue. If Sha'ul is > contending as I contend that he is, the works of the Law he is against are > the Pharisaical enactments that Yehsua was agasint.If that contention of > Sha'ul is what I contend as well, then all of the positive Torah affirming > texts in Romans must rule everything else Sha'ul teaches. It is a simple as > that. I see it so clearly, but to get across to others that have been > indoctrinated by the Christian churches is like trying to penetrate iron. It > seems to me, and I do not understand why, but some G-D opens their minds to > see and others stay blind. > > To make my contention clear it is perhaps going to take a chapter by > chapter and verse by verse which take a great amount of effort, but I have > been told that I must do it. Galatians is the single book that if Sha'ul is > taken as I do, he is Torah observant and teaches Torah observance. If he is > taken as Christian scholars take him, then Sha'ul is an apostate to the > Torah of G-D. and I add to that G-D forbid. > > > > ------------------------------ > Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" > on AOL Food > . > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "chris fordham" > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:36:02 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread > Hey Betty: > > This may or may not be appropriate, we are not sure. We have questioned > Paul and Galatians and were sent to this website to see a different > perspective. We do not agree with a lot on this website but read the > "Translation of Aramaic Galations". It's different from the modern english > translations. Don't know if it will help but thought we could at least pass > it on. A friend gave it to us about a year ago. > > www.aramaicNTtruth.org > > > We do not usually respond to anything but we love to read what everyone has > to say. We are too scared we will send something that will offend someone. > Again.........we don't agree with everything on this website. > > Chris and Amber Fordham > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > >> Hi Clyde and Pat, I just wanted to take a quick minute as my time is >> very limited right now, but I wanted to say thank you as well Clyde for the >> way you put forth this post and also, Pat, for you response. This is >> dialoguing! >> >> >> >> I agree that Yeshua was attempting to restore the Ancient Path of HaShem. >> At this point, I cannot say the same about Paul because there are things in >> his epistles, especially the book of Galations, that I have wrestled with a >> lot in the past, and have not to this day, been able to reconcile them with >> Torah and the Grace of HaShem, which in my belief, was not new with the >> coming of Yeshua. Since he said that not "one jot or tittle" would pass >> from the Torah until all had come to pass?then we cannot nullify the Torah, >> called the "old law" by Paul, by nailing it to the cross. This is my take. >> Sorry to "hit and run," but that is all the time I have?don't have the time >> to look up the references at this point? >> >> >> >> I too, hope that the pain you and Ruth is becoming more bearable, Clyde. >> The post that Patty sent was so beautiful and heartwarming. Our pets, who >> have not words to tell us how they feel, are so special to us and I bless >> HaShem for placing them on this earth for us so that we might have the honor >> and the privilege of caring for them. Several of my friends and I have >> often had the conversation that if more people were like our sweet doggies, >> so many of our communication problems would be solved?they are loving and >> forgive so quickly?come to think of it, I think those characteristics speak >> of the characteristics of those on this list?so we are indeed blessed! >> >> >> >> Love and blessings to all, >> >> >> >> Betty/Elisheva >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Robbins >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 6:45 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> YES, CB!!! I think I understand what you are saying. Thank you so much >> for laying it out so clearly. Yeshua was restoring the Ancient Path of >> HaSHem, and though it certainly doesn't sound like it at times (in fact it >> sounds very much like the opposite), perhaps that was all Paul was trying to >> do as well. I so hope you are right, and that Ephraim will come to >> understand this truth: that it is, and always has been, TORAH that sets >> them free! We are to walk in the Way of obedience to Torah, but it is >> ALWAYS by the GRACE of HaSHem, and His grace alone, that we are >> justified. BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! >> >> >> >> I must here add a very important note however. The Rabbis ALSO teach that >> it is by GRACE alone that we are justified. Even though Orthodox Rabbis >> teach observance of the Torah and even the "fences" around the Torah, they >> do not believe that we are justified by our obedience, but by the GRACE of >> G-d! This is what my Rabbi (a very wise man) taught me. >> >> >> >> I so hope you and Ruth are feeling better, >> >> >> >> Avigail (Pat) >> >> >> >> *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com >> >> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 11:19 AM >> >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread >> >> >> >> Dear friends: >> >> >> >> We have set forth a good many threads on this dialogue. I want to set >> forth the Yeshua thread and suggest to you all that the thread he began was >> picked up by the apostles and disciples and we can trace it through the >> so-called NT the addendum to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. I suggested >> earlier in emails that one of the tasks of Yeshua like the Prophets before >> him, was to turn Judah back to the old paths of righteousness. I think we >> can all agree that the Torah of the living G-D is the roadmap to >> righteousness. Yeshua came not to abolish the Torah but rather to interpret >> it correctly without adding to it or taking anything away. In that time and >> place much like in America today, where judges are making laws from the >> bench, so it was in Yehsua's generation as the Shammaites had gained >> ascendancy. >> >> >> >> The Torah is the roadmap to righteousness, a perfect map if you will, but >> something began to happen, and laws were being instituted the veered off the >> main pathway onto other roads. And some of those other roads were leading >> away from the main pathway to righteousness. And since these added laws were >> seen as necessary for justification before G-D, the more strict among the >> Pharisees watched Yehsua that they may catch him breaking these added laws. >> Since this is my story and doesn't have to be the same for any of you all, I >> will tell it as no more than my story. Yeshua had a major problem with these >> added laws, so much so, he accused those who followed him around, of >> breaking the commandments of G-D through the laws called traditions. >> >> >> >> Now, some of you will agree with my story and others will not, but even if >> you are listening some parts of my story might make sense to all. In any >> case there was a Pharisee named Sha'ul was very zealous for the traditions >> of his Pharisaical fathers - and this group of followers of the way that >> Yehsua was preaching and teachings was a real problem to Sha'ul. These >> followers were keeping the Yeshua thread going and were not following all of >> the traditions, i.e. laws of the Pharisees. After all they sat in Moses seat >> and any and all laws that they were making from the bench had to be obeyed >> for justification before G-D. These teachers of the way had to be wasted and >> put out of business. To disobey some of the laws of tradition just as Yeshua >> did, was disobeying G-D as Sha'ul thought. To waste these little groups >> being raised up was actually doing G-D a favor perhaps as Sha'ul saw it. >> >> >> >> But something happened on the way to Damascus that caused Sha'ul to get >> his mind changed. Sha'ul got his world turned upside down, and what he tried >> to waste he spent the rest of his life defending, and what was he defending? >> The Way. Ross spoke about the Way last night. Yeshua did not bring some new >> Way, he affirmed the old way, the old path, the roadway to righteousness. >> Now again this is just my story and each can take some parts and reject >> other parts, and that is ok, since it is just my story. In my story it is >> not complicated, and what Sha'ul began to do, was follow the thread begun by >> Yehsua. It was not the hearers of the added laws of the Pharisees, nor was >> it the doers of the these added laws that shall be justified before G-D. >> >> >> >> And so, what Laws are the doers to keep to be justified before G-D. The >> Way, the Way, and what was the Way, the Torah of G-D the roadmap to >> righteousness. Let me tell you what is happening to a leading modern NT >> scholar, N.T. Wright. He is getting a whole lot of criticism and it is not >> clear yet how far he will do with what he is seeing. N. T is beginning to >> notice all of those Torah affirming works in the letter to the Roman >> assemblies. And N. T. is making comments that Sha'ul also called Paul is not >> against the works of the Torah/Law as he once thought. I can tell that N. T >> has not worked it quite through yet, but I think if he stays the course he >> might find himself in some way in agreement with my story. >> >> >> >> But N. T now has a mountain to climb that has thick dark clouds covering >> it that pathway up to the top can hardly be found anymore. Now since this is >> my story I'm allowed to tell it as I see it, and all of you are allowed to >> tell your story as you see it. N. T has got to figure out now that he >> observes in that one letter as for the works of the Law, just what were the >> works of the law that put a bur under Sha'ul's saddle? I will most likely >> not be able to explain my story to N. T Wright because I don't have the >> right credentials. But if I could sit down with N. T and explain to him my >> story and the Way Yeshua restored, I would explain to him that Sha'uil >> called Paul was fighting against the very laws and traditions's that at one >> time took him on the Road to Damascus in an attempt to destroy the Way. I >> call this the thread of Yeshua. I think no one on the list would deny that >> it was in the beginning and from the beginning forward that all things begin >> by the grace of G-D alone. >> >> >> >> By His grace the universe was brought into existence. And by His grace he >> choose the holy men and woman of old. We could go on and on about that >> amazing grace of G-D. But in my story, and it is not mine alone, for even >> the Jewish sages have always believed the same. Once G-D bestows his grace >> upon a people, and as a result of that amazing grace - there is a second >> level of justification.Noah met it, Abraham kept it going through the seeds >> of seeds. And Moses kept it going, and so very many that space does not >> permit to name them all. But now fast forward to Yeshua and his thread was >> the same thread that runs throughout the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. And >> what was that thread at least in my story? >> >> >> >> It is not the hearers of the Torah that are Just, but the doers of the >> Torah shall be Justified. Can the doers be justified without first having >> the grace of G-D bestowed upon them? You all can answer that question from >> you own story, and I have just answered it from my story. >> >> >> >> Thank for listening to my story - and may I say, that Ross if we can hear >> it clearly was in many ways as he reflected on the Way, that was not new, >> but from the beginning it was the Way, And G-D as our Father all those who >> walked in the Way were just carrying on a family tradition. >> >> >> >> CB PS. My eyes fail me more some times than at other times and even with >> the spell checker sometimes the wrong word gets in. Please look over that if >> you will. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler >> Florence" on AOL Food >> . >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/fb94b67b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:25:53 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:25:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'rol In-Reply-To: References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: Thanks Pat. That's mostly what we do. I do not feel comfortable teaching them Brit until they understand Tanakh! We didn't even touch it for a couple of years. Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are > myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, > Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a > degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the > teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, > and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth > will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. > > A fellow searcher, > > Pat > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role > > Hey Pat! > > Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have > taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been > chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are > suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I > wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too > many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! > > Searching for ourselves and our children, > Amber > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, >> >> You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of >> seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I >> also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to >> love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have >> come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his >> name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his >> memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach >> us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. >> >> Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each >> other. >> >> Pat >> >> *From:* chris fordham >> *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >> >> Hey Pat: >> >> I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had >> a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J >> word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a >> verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took >> it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not >> confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! >> >> Chris and Amber >> >> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: >> >>> Ok....im gona try a reply here, >>> >>> I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our >>> early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get >>> that idea out of that mindset. >>> >>> Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some >>> strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once >>> a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her >>> friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this >>> Jewish thing" (*her words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I >>> got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her >>> response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk >>> and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she >>> could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....( >>> *based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the >>> question?). *I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of >>> the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle >>> from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). >>> I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much >>> prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS >>> (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken >>> during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man >>> that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an >>> influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! >>> >>> *Just trying to fit it all together....* >>> dave >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Pat Robbins >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into >>> seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see >>> this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more >>> noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, >>> who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. >>> reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I >>> recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from >>> school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you >>> know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS >>> THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that >>> his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he >>> answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought >>> there was blood in that candy. >>> >>> I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything >>> to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern >>> Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of >>> teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do >>> believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would >>> expect to see him in most Scriptures. >>> >>> >>> Love, >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> >>> *From:* Jessica >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> *Hi Hanoch,* >>> *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* >>> *"What *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he >>> be 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets >>> succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In >>> other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the >>> pure Torah of HaShem? * >>> *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of >>> Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though >>> dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in >>> every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the >>> planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he >>> definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short >>> before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the >>> trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he >>> had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * >>> *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit >>> Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was >>> already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying >>> to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. >>> * >>> *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be >>> denied. **"**Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would >>> really appreciate it. Toda!" *Does that help?* >>> *Kindest regards,* >>> *Jessica* >>> *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo >>> dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a >>> 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* >>> ** >>> ** >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM >>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> Hey Jessica, >>> >>> I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been >>> struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed >>> some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which >>> being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to >>> be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In >>> other words, why MUST he be 'there?' >>> >>> Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our >>> history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), >>> that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in >>> the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of >>> G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of >>> Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of >>> history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for >>> our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be >>> viewed as a teacher of Torah? >>> >>> I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different >>> religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see >>> where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that >>> dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me >>> see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! >>> *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* >>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites >>> at AOL Food >>> . >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/2d274169/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 11:54:39 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:54:39 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Message-ID: Hi Patty: Before offering an opinion on your two questions, would you please answer one for me? That is do you not see the need for the last Adam, This will help me in knowing how to give an opinion on your two uestions. Thanks CB **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/b766ea3d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patty " Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:32:50 -0400 Size: 17763 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/b766ea3d/attachment.mht From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Jun 6 13:31:00 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d1101c8c803$799f4fc0$6cddef40$@com> Hey Clyde, According to the meaning of the "Last Adam" in your post, I would respectfully have to say no. But I am open to dialogue and correction. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:55 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hi Patty: Before offering an opinion on your two questions, would you please answer one for me? That is do you not see the need for the last Adam, This will help me in knowing how to give an opinion on your two uestions. Thanks CB _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/f6cea447/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 13:37:49 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:37:49 EDT Subject: Fwd: FW: [Dialogue] The Lamb Message-ID: Hey guys I asked my pal Gary Arvidson who is kind to edit most everything I write, to go through the email - correct spelling and make the information clearer than I'm able to do. So that is why you see the words in red. Thank you for understanding. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/f1068792/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Gary Arvidson" Subject: FW: [Dialogue] The Lamb Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:14:47 -0400 Size: 78658 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/f1068792/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 6 14:00:49 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:00:49 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Message-ID: Thank you Patty for your honesty. You asked: Using the analogy of your first paragraph, I would like to ask 2 questions: 1. Do you think that anyone prior to the life/death of Yeshua will attain eternal life? 2. Do people still die now that Yeshua has been killed? Now, I will do my best to answer your questions. I thank every one who obeyed G-D in the cultures they found themselves will have their place in the world to come. If perchance all die in Adam, and all death is eternal without a resurrection, then all should be made alive,i,e, resurrected to immortal life. That being said where HaShep applies the accomplishments of the last Adam is his business,and my own view has a lot to do with the amazing grace of HaShem. This is my short answer to the first question, and to fill in more details I will be bordering on G-D reconciling all of creation back to himself, and that would cause more debate. Reality shows us people still die - but again that brings us back to the resurrection. To go farther in the physical cessation of life - would draw us in to the one day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day. So I will just stay with Adam and Eve lost accesses to the tree of eternal life, and the last Adam taking the curse away they will be inn the world to come.And if they are will not all of their children, each in their own order. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/ac507642/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patty " Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:31:00 -0400 Size: 10461 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/ac507642/attachment.mht From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 18:08:10 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast In-Reply-To: <0c5601c8c7e0$d11cdab0$73569010$@com> Message-ID: <374954.21248.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thank you Patty. I hope we can too.   Tracy --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote: From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 9:22 AM Hi Tracy,   Thank you, this is truly the ?mystery? of Paul. It may be impossible to find out what he actually believed, taught and wrote. We will just have to read him carefully and use Torah as our measure.   Thank you also for you blessing on our trip! I hope we can do some music together later this summer.   Love & Blessings, Patty   From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:56 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast   Hello Patty,   I find Paul to be an extremely humble person, "claiming to be the least of the saints". He does say that he was given revelations concerning Yeshua's death and resurrection, and he teaches about the realities and implications behind it. If one notices closely in the Book of Acts though, Paul spent years in study and counsel among other "prophets and teachers" and also submitted his teaching for inspection before Peter and James. I see Paul as a major "pen" of this corporate body of Netsarim Jews.   In Jewish studies, there are different levels of interpretation - from the plain meaning of a text, to the various implications of the text. I'm sure you're familiar with PaRDeS, which is the term used in for the 4 levels of interpretation of the Torah. You find these various levels within the Netsarim Testimony.   Blessings be upon your trip to Israel!!   Tracy   --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote: From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 9:29 PM Hi, I am of the current understanding, and I am open to correction, that Paul used his ?vision? as a sort of qualifier that his message was equal, if not greater than, that of the remaining disciples, i.e. he did not witness the message of Yeshua in person, but was ?given? a better understanding directly from the risen Christ..   Patty     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Visionary experience: Jesus Vs. Beast   I have to ask here, and I hope this does not offend anyone, whether one must consider the possibility that Paul's vision/experience of "Christ," the glorified and one, was something very much like this...I would not trust it and one of the things the Ebionite sources often discuss is this very point. In the Clementine writings we have Peter debating "Paul," who is claiming such visions, while Peter replies--well I was actually with Jesus, and what you are saying he never said. Paul then replies  that his "heavenly Christ," shining in glory, is superior to "Christ after the flesh," so people should listen to him.   This is actually a Torah principle...Who shall go up to heaven to get this or that...Moses says no, there is no need, it is here, near to us, once for all delivered at Sinai/Horeb.   Most interesting...   James     On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Gary Arvidson wrote:   Dialogue Friends,   Just as a point of confirmation, I can report that Clyde told me about this visionary experience 16 years ago on his back patio in San Dimas, California (summer 1992).  He appeared to still be in a state of shock about the whole episode.  I probed him over and over to be sure about the details of his reported experience.  I didn?t believe easily, but having had prior experience with Clyde over certain ?words? which he had received over the previous few years, helped me to accept this reported experience as genuine.  I know he is not a liar ? nor is he a fool.   >From there, all I could do was to try to discern the details.  When he described the brilliance of the image appearing over this stadium, I asked if it were as bright as the Sun ? or was it like the light of the silvery Moon.  He said it was like the Moon (this question was based on a comparison / contrast of luminosity as posed by 2Th 2:8 & Ge 1:16).  Of course the Sun is ??the greater light?? and the moon is ??the lesser light?? (Ge 1:16).  We all know what the lesser light represents ? in the impersonation posed by the Devil.    These and other factors caused me to do an extensive amount of research which I pretty well summarized in abbreviated form in the booklet entitled: Jesus Vs. Beast: 50 Comparisons (16pp.).  The drophead on the front cover of this booklet states the following:   The underlying theme of Revelation 13 reveals that ?the beast? is an inverted take-off on Jesus.  The biblical references in the following comparison chart demonstrate the amazing cross-correlation between these two important beings.  However, ?the beast,? as it is called, assumes a reverse[1] pattern of Jesus.  The contrasting parallel between these two powerful entities is rather amazing to behold.   [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus ? but in a comparative sense.  There will be great deception.  Beware.     From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:31 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Billions have eyes but cannot see - ears but cannot hear   Dear friends:   Why I believe that through the Torah, prophets, and Writings, we can fix the so-called NT. It has been several years since a vision came down before my eyes that were wide open. It shook me to the core of my being. It took three weeks before I could get control of my emotions. I actually accused G-D of being unfair and had to repent of my foolishness. I had to know if what I saw in the vision could be confirmed in the so-called old Testament and NT. I will explain what I saw, and then what I found at least for me was the greatest idol in all the world. Billions worship this idol thinking they are worshipping G-D. All I think realize that the burning desire of Ha Satan is to be worshipped as G-D is worshipped. He lost his place in heaven as a result of his desire. You all know that story so it is not necessary to say more in that regard.   The vision that came down before my eyes happened in a stadium filled with Christians in what I perceived as a crusade. If any have seen a hologram where something is used to project an image of what the image is projected from. What I saw was the man in the Shroud of Turin. If one can imagine the brightness of a full silvery moon was covering the image and all that could be seen was the outline and the dark areas where the wounds of crucifixion were clear. The image came down in hovered two or three hundred feet above the ground.   All over the stadium people were falling to their knees in worship of this image they believed as Jesus who they believe is G-D. I cried out, no, no, this is Satan projecting the image to gain your worship as G-D. No one would listen and knees after knees kept bending in worship of this awesome image. Energy was coming off the image like tongues of fire and dissipating into the atmosphere. When the image lifted and disappeared was when I accused G-D of being unfair, and said who can stand against such an awesome image?   I began a research to see if such a thing was prediction to occur at some time in the future, I will not take space to quote all of the texts, but I did find the prediction that of future events that if it were possible it would deceive the very elect. The prediction begins with false prophets and false Christ's, and then begins to center on one false Christ  Then comes the warning. If they say he is in the desert go not forth, even if it is said he is in the secret chambers believe it not. I think most know the texts to which I'm pointing.   But then my research took me to Rev 13  that I will only cover briefly since it describes the image which I saw in vision. The seer perhaps had nothing to compare this image too, but I did, since I know what a hologram is. In symbolism it is said let us make an image to the beast that can speak and cause as many that will not worship the image are to be put to death. The image has only appeared thus far in artist renditions and idols that have spread to the four corners of the earth. Now, you dear friends cannot be deceived because you know the truth and have eyes that can see and ears that can hear. But billions have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear.   It is for them that I labor that G-D might give them eyes that can see and ears that can hear. When the image begins to appear, all of you will know what you must do. There is coming a separation from the sheep and the goats. You that are sheep of the great Shepard G-D will have a job to do since you have eyes that see and ears that can hear.   CB      Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. [1] reverse  ?  This is a key word.  Careful clarification of its use in the comparison is of vital importance.  This concerns a reverse sense that can also be associated with the words inverse and/or obverse.  The ?beast? is the total opposite of Jesus.   No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM     No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________  _______________________________________________  _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/815b1ce3/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 20:35:07 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:35:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] HONORING HARRY BINGHAM Message-ID: ?? ? ? ? ?What an inspirational story. ? ???????? ?????Who knows??? he might have been involved in getting Lola and Isie Wuhl out of Marseille to the?US. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2008 13:01:49 -0400 The Rabbi mentioned in the introduction, Sam Silver, was our Rabbi at? Congregation L'dor Va-dor in?Lake Worth.? He just recently passed away? two weeks before his 96th birthday. He was a remarkable human being...? Morris and I feel honored to have known him. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: joelfrane at bellsouth.net To: ; Subject: HONORING HARRY BINGHAM Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:05:05 -0400 In honor of Rabbi Sam Silver, let's spread the word on Harry Bingham who practiced true TIKUN OLAM - repairing the world - ? What a wonderful tribute to a human being who exemplifies the soaring of the human spirit.?:? Who was Harry Bingham and why?did he get a stamp? ? ? Just an interesting piece of evidence of the curious behavior of the?Roosevelt??administration toward the Jews during WWII ----- ? A few months ago, Secretary of State Colin Powell gave a posthumous aw ard for ?'constructive dissent' to Hiram (or Harry) Bingham, IV. For over ?fifty years, the State Department resisted any attempt to honor Bingham. For ?them he was an insubordinate member of the?US??diplomatic service, a dangerous maverick who was eventually demoted. Now, ?after his death, he has been officially recognized as a hero. ? Bingham came from an illustrious family. His father (on whom the fictional character?Indiana?Jones was based) was the archeologist who unearthed the Inca?City of Machu ?Picchu,?Peru, ?in 1911. Harry entered the US diplomatic service and, in 1939, was posted to Marseilles,?? France, as American Vice-Consul. ? The?USA??was then neutral and, not wishing to annoy Marshal Petain's puppet?Vichy?regime, President Roosevelt's government ordered its representatives in?Marseilles??not to grant visas to any Jews. Bingham found this policy immoral and, risking his career, did all in his power to undermine it. ? In ?defiance of his bosses in?Washington, ?he granted over 2,500?USA??visas to Jewish and other refugees, including the artists Marc Chagall and ?Max Ernst and the family of the writer Thomas Mann. He also sheltered Jews in ?his?Marseilles??home, and obtained forged identity papers to help Jews in their dangerous ?journeys across?Europe. He worked with the French underground to smuggle Jews out of?France??into Franco's?Spain??or across the?Mediterranean??and even contributed to their expenses out of his own pocket. In 1941,?Washington?lost patience with him. He was sent to?Argentina, where later he continued to annoy his superiors by reporting on the movements of Nazi war criminals. ? Eventually, ?he was forced out of the American diplomatic service completel y. Bingham died ?almost penniless in 1988. Little was known of his extraordinary activ ities until his son found some letters in his belongings after his death. He has now been honored by many groups and organizations including the United Nations and the State of?Israel. ? PLEASE ?honor his memory and resend this.? ? ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers.?Watch 'Cooking with Tyler Florence' on AOL Food. ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.?Get Windows Live SkyDrive. ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback.?Search Now! Andrew Gault amgault at cox.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/621ea449/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 51544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/621ea449/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 17071 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080606/621ea449/attachment.jpe From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 22:15:52 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:15:52 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb--a question Message-ID: <516d73340806062015j476b9bfdr9e175f1af7cb376d@mail.gmail.com> G'day all, Rev 15:3 "And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb..." Jn 1:29 "...behold the Lamb of God..." These two texts were taken from the New Tesament. My question is: On hearing and reading these two texts what would be uppermost in Jewih minds as to who or what was the Lamb referring to? Thanks in anticipation for any and all responses. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/c4efd5a0/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sat Jun 7 08:41:39 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:41:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Dear Friends: I have mentioned the billions of Christians that have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. They have been taught that Sha'ul/Paul abolished the Jewish Torah/Law. The main book that demonstrates that Sha'ul/Paul abolished the Torah/Law is Galatians. But there is a way, an opening to demonstrate that the historical ministry of Yeshua we have identified as the Yeshua thread, if followed is clearly reflected right at the beginning of the letter to the congregations in Southern Galatia. If each person who has been given eyes that can see, and ears that can hear, can understand what I observe as the breaker of the false teaching in Christianity. It is not difficult for any of us who have been given eyes to see, that the works of the Law that Sha'ul/Paul is against is not the written Torah/Law of G-D, but the commandments of men. Let me begin with a statement of Yeshua: Now, what did Yeshua have to say about the traditions of the Pharisees? ??And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your traditions?? (Matt 15:3) Yeshua was judged time and again for breaking the traditions of men. Certain men of the Pharisees dogged his trail watching him that they might catch him breaking the Law. What Law was Yeshua being judged by? The traditions of the Pharisees. If we can understand this simple fact - the Torah of G-D was not to be added too, nor anything taken away, we have the opportunity for opening the eyes of those that cannot see, and the ears of those that cannot hear. If you dear friends will carefully go through the gospels of Matthew Mark and Luke, and notice each time Yeshua was judged it was to catch him breaking the commandments of the Pharisees. This is the wedge to open the eyes of the Christians that cannot see. It is the Yeshua thread that the apostle Peter stated so clearly in Acts 15, that the party of the Pharisees were trying to put on the G-D fearing Gentiles. Peter said what the Party of the Pharisees were demanding was in fact tempting G-D. How serious is that? To understand that Rav Sha'ul/Paul had destroyed these added commandments of the Pharisees he had formerly excelled in, is the opener of the eyes that cannot see. It is the key for you and me as the hands and eyes, and on behalf of G-D to give eyes to see for any that G-D might choose. It cannot be over emphasized dear friends that this is the key to open the blind eyes. Sha'ul/Paul stands or falls on answering the major question. What did he destroy? Did he destroyed the commandments of G-D? God Forbid. Did he destroy the commandments of men? the answer is yes. Sha'uil/Paul destroyed the commandments of men. Here is the proof: Notice carefully Gal 1:14. ??and I was advancing in [Pharisaical] Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries being more exceedingly zealous for my [Pharisaical] ancestral traditions. ? Notice I was advancing in the traditions. I was is past tense. What I was advancing in, not what I'm now teaching, but what I was teaching. We have a before and an after situation here. in Gal 1:14 is the before part, now let look at the after part, that is what Sha'ul/Paul destroyed: Gal 2:17-18: ??But if, while we seek to be justified by messiah, we ourselves are also found sinners, is therefore messiah the minister of sin? God forbid, For if I build again the things which I destroyed I make myself a transgressor.? Dear friends, if you can observe that what Sha'ul/Paul destroyed out of his life and practice were the commandments of men instituted by the traditions of the Pharisees, then you will have the key for opening the minds and eyes of at least some of those billions of Christians that eyes but cannot see. Sha'ul/Paul stands or falls as a Torah observant Jew, or an apostate to the very Torah/Law of G-D. If he stands then each and every positive statement must be the bedrock in how Sha'ul/Paul must be taken. Here are a few of those Torah/Law affirming statements: ??Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.? (Rom 7:12) ??For I delight in the Law of God after the inward man? (Rom 7:22) ??I thank God through messiah Yeshua our lord, so then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God; but with the flesh the Law of sin.? (Rom 7:25) ??For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. ?(Rom 8:3-4) This above is only a few of the Torah affirming statements, and more could be added. But I hope these are enough to make the point. So we care about those billions that have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot here? I know you do care my friends. I'm suggesting to you all, and you have no obligation to believe me. But over and over again I came before your G-D and mine, crying out, how can we know if you do not show us. As G-D is my witness it was in that crying out that The Yeshua thread became wide open in my eyes, and then I observed in what I have pointed out above. Once you see you can never un-see. I see the Yehsua thread in the gospels, I see it in the statements of Peter in Acts 15, and I observe it in Galatians as that which Sha'ul/Paul destroyed out of his life. To pick back up what he destroyed would make him a transgressor. My friends you have no need that one should teach you of what determines transgression. The Torah, Prophets, and Writings could not be clearer on what is righteousness and what is transgression. I'm going after as many as the LORD our G-D should choose and set before them why they have eyes but cannot see, and ears but cannot hear. They have been told lies about what Sha'ul/Paul taught. My prayer is that you my friends might take a second look at what I contend, and that is Sha'ul/Paul was Torah observant and taught Torah observance until they day he was martyred. Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/d175b5bc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 10:34:15 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:34:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot In-Reply-To: <200806060953.m569r4UG004671@mail2514.carrierzone.com> References: <200806060953.m569r4UG004671@mail2514.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: THANK YOU, STEVE, FOR THIS MOST POWERFUL PRAYER!!!!!! I can hardly believe the scope and power of this prayer! I have prayed it several times already, and it grows in intensity with every reading! I've found that reading it aloud is absolutely riveting!!! This is OUR prayer! It is what we MUST say to our Father, as we Return to Him! This is not only a prayer, it is an INSTRUMENT FOR REGATHERING THE TRIBES!!!!!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Pat/Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:53 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Dear Friends, I apologize for being so late with this prayer. Am asking all of you to set yourselves aside in the three days before Shavuot, and go before Our God with this attached intercessory, "confessing prayer." If you have congregations of chavurot / small group fellowships, please take this to them, and lead them in this prayer of UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR RETURNING ISRAEL AT THIS TIME. We are expressly told that we are to "confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers." ( Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Hos. 5:15, Lam. 5:7). It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the stated purposes in the prayer. I know more could be added, but it is 2:45 AM, and I have run out of time, more ways than one. You can send me additional references, if you wish. Please print it out and go to G-d with it. It is our task, as the remnant intercessors for our peoples. The time has arrived. We are facing a great disaster on the horizon, and we need to do a Pinchas-like intercession NOW for the sake of our peoples. DO IT NOW! Yours for the restoration, Steve Mathe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/786d1018/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sat Jun 7 10:58:43 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:58:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot References: <200806060953.m569r4UG004671@mail2514.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <0ecd01c8c8b7$5d1cad70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Steve, I ditto what Pat so eloquently said re: your prayer for us,,,tribers. Love you so much, keep up the good work you do for us. Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot THANK YOU, STEVE, FOR THIS MOST POWERFUL PRAYER!!!!!! I can hardly believe the scope and power of this prayer! I have prayed it several times already, and it grows in intensity with every reading! I've found that reading it aloud is absolutely riveting!!! This is OUR prayer! It is what we MUST say to our Father, as we Return to Him! This is not only a prayer, it is an INSTRUMENT FOR REGATHERING THE TRIBES!!!!!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Pat/Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:53 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Dear Friends, I apologize for being so late with this prayer. Am asking all of you to set yourselves aside in the three days before Shavuot, and go before Our God with this attached intercessory, "confessing prayer." If you have congregations of chavurot / small group fellowships, please take this to them, and lead them in this prayer of UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR RETURNING ISRAEL AT THIS TIME. We are expressly told that we are to "confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers." ( Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Hos. 5:15, Lam. 5:7). It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the stated purposes in the prayer. I know more could be added, but it is 2:45 AM, and I have run out of time, more ways than one. You can send me additional references, if you wish. Please print it out and go to G-d with it. It is our task, as the remnant intercessors for our peoples. The time has arrived. We are facing a great disaster on the horizon, and we need to do a Pinchas-like intercession NOW for the sake of our peoples. DO IT NOW! Yours for the restoration, Steve Mathe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/33b033a6/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 11:38:15 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:38:15 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot In-Reply-To: <0ecd01c8c8b7$5d1cad70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325> Message-ID: <919AD294B5C7465593972EA223F0B35D@bettygivin> Absolutely, THIS IS A MESSAGE FOR OUR DAY RIGHT NOW!!! My prayer is that we each read it and pray it with all our hearts, souls and strength! May our prayers be fervent.for t'shuvah and the Return of the Tribes so that we will be a "singular band," Yehudah v'Yisrael, represented by the Two Sticks that will one day become One in HaShem's Hand!!! It reminds me somewhat of the New Moon Prayer that some of us pray together, which is another prayer that we can join in at each Rosh Chodesh and do with solidarity! May HASHEM HEAR THE CRIES OF OUR HEARTS!!! Shabbat Shalom, Love and Blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:59 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Steve, I ditto what Pat so eloquently said re: your prayer for us,,,tribers. Love you so much, keep up the good work you do for us. Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot THANK YOU, STEVE, FOR THIS MOST POWERFUL PRAYER!!!!!! I can hardly believe the scope and power of this prayer! I have prayed it several times already, and it grows in intensity with every reading! I've found that reading it aloud is absolutely riveting!!! This is OUR prayer! It is what we MUST say to our Father, as we Return to Him! This is not only a prayer, it is an INSTRUMENT FOR REGATHERING THE TRIBES!!!!!! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Pat/Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:53 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Dear Friends, I apologize for being so late with this prayer. Am asking all of you to set yourselves aside in the three days before Shavuot, and go before Our God with this attached intercessory, "confessing prayer." If you have congregations of chavurot / small group fellowships, please take this to them, and lead them in this prayer of UTMOST IMPORTANCE FOR RETURNING ISRAEL AT THIS TIME. We are expressly told that we are to "confess our iniquity and the iniquity of our fathers." ( Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Hos. 5:15, Lam. 5:7). It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for the stated purposes in the prayer. I know more could be added, but it is 2:45 AM, and I have run out of time, more ways than one. You can send me additional references, if you wish. Please print it out and go to G-d with it. It is our task, as the remnant intercessors for our peoples. The time has arrived. We are facing a great disaster on the horizon, and we need to do a Pinchas-like intercession NOW for the sake of our peoples. DO IT NOW! Yours for the restoration, Steve Mathe _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/66bc2072/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jun 7 15:32:34 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 06:32:34 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot] Message-ID: <484AF062.3070704@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/ca747a66/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for before Shavuot Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:53:07 -0700 Size: 103749 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/ca747a66/attachment.eml From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 15:33:58 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:33:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" Message-ID: Last evening, as I prayed, I very clearly heard "16:8" (which I believed was referring to Psalm 16:8), and then the word, "Ahavah." Have just today realized it is the same verse Betty received (copied here below my post) from HaSHem just a few days ago! I think this is important because two of us have heard the same thing, which emphasizes the meaning, and is probably intended as a word of encouragement to all of us. "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalm 16:8 I then did a word study on the Hebrew word I also received: "Ahavah" (aleph, hay, vav, hay). It means "love, affection, tender friendship." I think that what HaSHem was showing us through this doubled PR ("personal revelation," as Steve Mathe refers to them) was that as long as the L-RD is our Focus and Source, He will be beside us, showing us the Way. Therefore we should not be moved from what He teaches us through His Tanach. I believe He added the word "Ahavah" ("love") because it requires love to keep reiterating the things upon which we stand firm, as we try to dialogue our way through this most monumental event of our Regathering. The last 3 verses of Ps 16, verses 9-11, are also very important. They speak of something that was very much on my heart yesterday concerning eternal life being the free gift of HaSHem to all who, through His Tanach (the Ancient Path), keep Him "always before them." "Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices: my flesh also dwells secure. For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; nor will thou suffer thy holy one to see the pit. Thou wilt make known to me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." Psalm 16:9-12 I then did a word search on the last word of vs. 11: "evermore." It is the Hebrew word, "natzach" (nun, tzaddi, chet). It means " to perpetuate, eternize, eternalize, immortalize." For ALL those who set HaSHem before them always, He WILL make known His "Path of LIFE" in which there are "pleasures ETERNALLY." Love, Pat/Avigail -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:41 AM To: 'UI List' Subject: Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 16:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other.from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to 'do' Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy.and here I am.when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing. Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn't asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one.and so I decided to look it up.and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ."May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share.and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse." "Be still and know that I am HaShem." Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/9df836ca/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Jun 7 15:38:21 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:38:21 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com><8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> Message-ID: <005201c8c8de$6e6755e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Patty and Amber, What is the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:26 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hey Patty: I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before and only made it about 8 months. My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly question. Amber On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs) Shalom Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac without realizing where it came from. "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our appetites for meat. I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of their G-d. Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first repented of the sin. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and give me life. I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. Love, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves. And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding. _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/4280a35e/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Jun 7 15:49:41 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:49:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Vegetarian vs. Vegan (was The Lamb) In-Reply-To: <005201c8c8de$6e6755e0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com><8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> <005201c8c8de$6e6755e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <0e2901c8c8e0$03edba40$0bc92ec0$@com> Hi, Here is an article about the different types of vegetarianism: http://www.vegetarianvegan.com/Vegan_Vs_Vegetarian.html Blessings, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/409c4555/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 16:04:34 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:04:34 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] In-Reply-To: <484AF062.3070704@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????. {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ?? ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ?? ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ?? ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ?? ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????. 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/db2c5f46/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 16:20:43 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 17:20:43 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] In-Reply-To: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> References: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> Message-ID: Yes! Thank you so much, Joe! This was a marvelous post, and much appreciated!!! Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for our Return to HaSHem! TORAH! TORAH! TORAH! CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! GET THE GREEK OUT! THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! Pat/Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, Elisheva/Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????. {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ?? ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ?? ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ?? ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ?? ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????. 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/249754b3/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jun 7 17:42:25 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:42:25 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. Message-ID: <484B0ED1.5030909@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/7d6c4f6e/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 18:30:03 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:30:03 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] In-Reply-To: References: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806071630l7c0cdcd2ueb19c40d0768e208@mail.gmail.com> Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins : > Yes! Thank you so much, Joe! This was a marvelous post, and much > appreciated!!! Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for > our Return to HaSHem! > > TORAH! TORAH! TORAH! > CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! > GET THE GREEK OUT! > THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! > > Pat/Avigail > > *From:* Betty Givin > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer > forbeforeShavuot] > > Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also > Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you > mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received > regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will > not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? > > *?we stand **GUILTY.** We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your > eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in > Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it > down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross > the waters to fetch it for us?" * > > *"But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14.* > > Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for > beforeShavuot] > > > > Todah Rabbah Steve, > > You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This > outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have > engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been > cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the > blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the > misunderstanding of Paul . > > In spite of all of this we stand *GUILTY.* We have no more excuses.You > have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. > Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather > it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " > Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" > > *"But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14.* > > We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our > only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth > forever. > > *??* ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? > (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? > ???-??????. {?} > > *13** Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be > ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because > they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P}* > > *??* ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? > ??????????, ??????. > > *14** Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be > saved; for Thou art my praise. * > > *??* ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. > > *15** Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it > come now.' * > > *??* ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? > ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. > > *16** As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; > neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out > of my lips was manifest before Thee. * > > *??* ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? > ?????. > > *17** Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. **Jer > 17 v13-17.* > > Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the > day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. > May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the > residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. > > Chag Shavuot Sameach. > JOE. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/af24faa2/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 18:32:39 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:32:39 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806071632s13619afcn831958ac7d1adf8f@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins : > Yes! Thank you so much, Joe! This was a marvelous post, and much > appreciated!!! Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for > our Return to HaSHem! > > TORAH! TORAH! TORAH! > CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! > GET THE GREEK OUT! > THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! > > Pat/Avigail > > *From:* Betty Givin > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer > forbeforeShavuot] > > Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also > Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you > mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received > regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will > not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? > > *?we stand **GUILTY.** We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your > eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in > Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it > down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross > the waters to fetch it for us?" * > > *"But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14.* > > Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for > beforeShavuot] > > > > Todah Rabbah Steve, > > You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This > outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have > engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been > cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the > blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the > misunderstanding of Paul . > > In spite of all of this we stand *GUILTY.* We have no more excuses.You > have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. > Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather > it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " > Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" > > *"But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14.* > > We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our > only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth > forever. > > *??* ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? > (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? > ???-??????. {?} > > *13** Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be > ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because > they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P}* > > *??* ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? > ??????????, ??????. > > *14** Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be > saved; for Thou art my praise. * > > *??* ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. > > *15** Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it > come now.' * > > *??* ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? > ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. > > *16** As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; > neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out > of my lips was manifest before Thee. * > > *??* ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? > ?????. > > *17** Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. **Jer > 17 v13-17.* > > Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the > day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. > May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the > residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. > > Chag Shavuot Sameach. > JOE. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/06a1c34e/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 18:42:20 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:42:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> Amber, I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. Kim On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: > I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are > myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, > Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a > degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the > teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, > and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth > will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. > > A fellow searcher, > > Pat > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role > > Hey Pat! > > Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have > taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been > chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are > suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I > wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too > many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! > > Searching for ourselves and our children, > Amber > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, >> >> You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of >> seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I >> also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to >> love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have >> come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his >> name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his >> memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach >> us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. >> >> Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each >> other. >> >> Pat >> >> *From:* chris fordham >> *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >> >> Hey Pat: >> >> I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had >> a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J >> word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a >> verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took >> it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not >> confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! >> >> Chris and Amber >> >> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: >> >>> Ok....im gona try a reply here, >>> >>> I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our >>> early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get >>> that idea out of that mindset. >>> >>> Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some >>> strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once >>> a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her >>> friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this >>> Jewish thing" (*her words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I >>> got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her >>> response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk >>> and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she >>> could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....( >>> *based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the >>> question?). *I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of >>> the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle >>> from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). >>> I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much >>> prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS >>> (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken >>> during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man >>> that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an >>> influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! >>> >>> *Just trying to fit it all together....* >>> dave >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Pat Robbins >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into >>> seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see >>> this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more >>> noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, >>> who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. >>> reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I >>> recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from >>> school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you >>> know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS >>> THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that >>> his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he >>> answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought >>> there was blood in that candy. >>> >>> I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything >>> to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern >>> Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of >>> teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do >>> believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would >>> expect to see him in most Scriptures. >>> >>> >>> Love, >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> >>> *From:* Jessica >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> *Hi Hanoch,* >>> *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* >>> *"What *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he >>> be 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets >>> succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In >>> other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the >>> pure Torah of HaShem? * >>> *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of >>> Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though >>> dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in >>> every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the >>> planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he >>> definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short >>> before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the >>> trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he >>> had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * >>> *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit >>> Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was >>> already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying >>> to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. >>> * >>> *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be >>> denied. **"**Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would >>> really appreciate it. Toda!" *Does that help?* >>> *Kindest regards,* >>> *Jessica* >>> *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo >>> dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a >>> 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* >>> ** >>> ** >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM >>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> Hey Jessica, >>> >>> I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been >>> struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed >>> some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which >>> being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to >>> be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In >>> other words, why MUST he be 'there?' >>> >>> Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our >>> history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), >>> that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in >>> the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of >>> G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of >>> Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of >>> history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for >>> our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be >>> viewed as a teacher of Torah? >>> >>> I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different >>> religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see >>> where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that >>> dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me >>> see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! >>> *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* >>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites >>> at AOL Food >>> . >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/c8aa0791/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 19:08:42 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:08:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> Hi Amber, The words below from Pat and my daughter, Kim are wise words indeed. The Tanakh is the ultimate measure. I think it is always okay to say, "I don't know," to your children as well as to anyone that asks. After all, who has all the answers any way. Although Kim was an adult when I first learned about Torah and had the opportunity to introduce the Ancient Paths to her, there was a lot of "I don't knows" in our early discussions.and still are; the important thing is look at her now.she is still very diligent in her search.and now she is teaching me things.and what a gift that is! May your children "rise up and call you blessed!" I think if you love HaShem with all your heart and do your best to impart that to them and teach them Words of Torah as you "walk by the way, as you sit in your house, as you lie down, and as you arise," and leave the rest up to HaShem, you will be blessed. Amber, I know that you already do these things.many of us have seen you with your children, and children with characteristics like yours do not just blossom by themselves without being nourished and taught the Ways of HaShem by caring and loving parents, such as you and Chris. Hope your Shabbat has been one of joy and blessing, Elisheva, Betty P.S. About the vegetarianism, yes it is interesting that a number of us have that lifestyle.perhaps we are just preparing ourselves for what is to come.and they "shall not kill or destroy on my Holy Mountain." _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Amber, I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. Kim On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. A fellow searcher, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/508fad96/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jun 7 19:16:42 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:16:42 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayerforbeforeShavuot] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806071630l7c0cdcd2ueb19c40d0768e208@mail.gmail.com> References: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin><1c8dbb6e0806071630l7c0cdcd2ueb19c40d0768e208@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1530920062-1212884655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2004810724-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Wow! The topic I am going to talk on at the Vineyard tomorrow is G-d's conception of order vs ours and how it is reflected in Psalm 104. Part of that concept is the theory of fractal organization (a basic tenet of chaos theory) as well as quantum symmetry. I was supposed to give that talk last week but it was postponed. Now this shows up! So much for coincidences! John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "kim alvarado" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:30:03 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com.? The one on rational thinking is wonderful.? We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah.? The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away.? Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins >: Yes!? Thank you so much, Joe!? This was a marvelous post, and much appreciated!!!? Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for our Return to HaSHem! ? TORAH!? TORAH! TORAH! CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! GET THE GREEK OUT! THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! ? Pat/Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Yes! Yes, Joe!!!? Toda rabba to both you and Steve.? Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!!? To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba? and Shabbat Shalom, brother, ? Elisheva/Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] ? Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ??????????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????.? {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ????????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????:? ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ??????????-??????, ???????? ?????:? ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ??????????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ???????-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????.???????????????????????????????????????????? 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil.? Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. ? ? ? ? ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 19:25:19 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:25:19 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. In-Reply-To: <484B0ED1.5030909@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1AB549AE5F14407B961A13C4D29E20BE@bettygivin> And a Chag Sameach to you, Joe! Toda rabba for the beautiful link! Did you check out the link I sent earlier? http://www.aish.com/theWall.asp I know that you as well as anyone who has the love of Yeushalayim in their hearts as so many of us do would absolutely love it! I think it is so worth seeing.I have played it over and over and wept.I have such a deep desire to be there in Yerushalayim in person, there at the Wall.but since that has not yet been made possible, I can at least see beautiful and moving pictures like this and imagine what it will be like to be there one day when all the 12 Tribes are gathered together as one.a singular band. Hope you had a most beautiful and blessed Shabbat! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. Shalom Chaverim, Let us rejoice with Simchat Torah as we prepare for this SUBLIME day not only in the history of Yisrael but for all humanity. The day the earth stood still. Let us bring honour and glory to His Holy name, today, tomorrow and for all eternity. We lift up our voices with thanksgiving to this indescribable gift, that you HaShem have given to all humanity. May we humble ourselves before the majesty of Your Holy word, The Torah. Chag Sameach. Your Achi JOE. http://www.breslev.co.il/video_strem/asx/eshavuot.asx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/e662f5af/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Jun 7 19:37:21 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:37:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806071632s13619afcn831958ac7d1adf8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0806071632s13619afcn831958ac7d1adf8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a201c8c8ff$d1b33ee0$0200a8c0@marvin> Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks? _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins : Yes! Thank you so much, Joe! This was a marvelous post, and much appreciated!!! Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for our Return to HaSHem! TORAH! TORAH! TORAH! CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! GET THE GREEK OUT! THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! Pat/Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????. {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ?? ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ?? ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ?? ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ?? ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????. 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/fd4ba427/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 20:00:10 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:00:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout In-Reply-To: <00a201c8c8ff$d1b33ee0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3A19DC689CD0470295BB4FC001A69243@bettygivin> Marvin, This is the actual article. I think if you google Aish.com, you will see the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of both.He not only counts the stars but calls them by name.WOW! Galactic Torah by Alexander Seinfeld Talmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust." Email this Print this Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the final product? This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and distribution of stars in the universe. The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus of 1022 than common sense would allow. Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) Multiple Patterns However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups (what we call superclusters). To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment. Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world and the consensus are pure astonishment. Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral tradition. You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 ______________________________________________ _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/848c9eeb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/848c9eeb/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13505 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/848c9eeb/attachment.jpe From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Jun 7 20:11:43 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:11:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> References: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> Message-ID: <00a701c8c904$9ecdd1c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Amber, My children are grown now.. I feel like I failed them in so many ways. They were young when we really started out of the Baal worship. I personally wrestle to no end with what to tell them. My conclusion, tell them what you honestly know and understand at the time. Teach them that as man fell away form God in the garden we are now on a return trip back to the father. As any trip there is much to see along the way, many places that we stop for a while to pitch our tent and make camp. Some time we stop to go exploring and think of all the neat things we learn and find every time we roll over a log, flip over a rock or look under a leaf. Teach them the stories of the Taneck(Hebrew Bible) make the characters and stories come alive to them. In every bible story or reading look for the teaching that will apply to their life's at their age. That practical application. See what happens when you tell lies! Look how God took care of those that obeyed him! And look at Samson. a super man as long as his heart was of a pure motive. But, then his motives changed and look what happened! As far as the NT tell the stories as you see them, you just have to weed the garden as you look for the veggies. My father is gone now, he raised 9 childern and all but one has a heart to serve God. Regardless of their theology... from his personal example the most important thing to do for your children is let them see your relationship with God. Let them see, you read and study your bible, let them hear you in your prayer closet, talking to your father. Let them see by your example that you attempt to live your life by his word as best as you can based on where your at in your understanding. My father use to counsel parents about dealing with their trouble children. Every one of them he would ask, How much time do you spend praying for your child? Do your children ever hear you call their names out to God? Most of the parents would drop their heads. My father was a wise man. I saw my father broke and I saw him with money in his pocklet. I saw him on the mountain top and living in the hot dry desert valley. I saw him laugh and I saw him cry. But, maybe one of the strongest impressions he made on me was when he lay on the floor(face) and cried like a baby as he talked to God. He put his relationship with God first and his family second and we all knew it. Do the best you can.. God makes up the difference. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Hi Amber, The words below from Pat and my daughter, Kim are wise words indeed. The Tanakh is the ultimate measure. I think it is always okay to say, "I don't know," to your children as well as to anyone that asks. After all, who has all the answers any way. Although Kim was an adult when I first learned about Torah and had the opportunity to introduce the Ancient Paths to her, there was a lot of "I don't knows" in our early discussions.and still are; the important thing is look at her now.she is still very diligent in her search.and now she is teaching me things.and what a gift that is! May your children "rise up and call you blessed!" I think if you love HaShem with all your heart and do your best to impart that to them and teach them Words of Torah as you "walk by the way, as you sit in your house, as you lie down, and as you arise," and leave the rest up to HaShem, you will be blessed. Amber, I know that you already do these things.many of us have seen you with your children, and children with characteristics like yours do not just blossom by themselves without being nourished and taught the Ways of HaShem by caring and loving parents, such as you and Chris. Hope your Shabbat has been one of joy and blessing, Elisheva, Betty P.S. About the vegetarianism, yes it is interesting that a number of us have that lifestyle.perhaps we are just preparing ourselves for what is to come.and they "shall not kill or destroy on my Holy Mountain." _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Amber, I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. Kim On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. A fellow searcher, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/d23b4b6d/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sat Jun 7 20:18:47 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:18:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout In-Reply-To: <3A19DC689CD0470295BB4FC001A69243@bettygivin> References: <00a201c8c8ff$d1b33ee0$0200a8c0@marvin> <3A19DC689CD0470295BB4FC001A69243@bettygivin> Message-ID: <00c401c8c905$9b9ee380$0200a8c0@marvin> Thanks Betty. Had you on my mind lately, as they use to say... been lifting you up to the father. Southern means, been prayin for ya! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/12349d03/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 20:37:07 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:37:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout In-Reply-To: <00c401c8c905$9b9ee380$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Thanks, Marvin! Hey, I am a Southern girl and understood you perfectly! You are too dear! Hashem must have put me on your heart because He knows how much I have needed it..not just me personally, but my whole family. So toda rabba for your sensitivity and Baruch HaShem! It finally looks like our lives may be beginning to turn around a bit. Roger was blessed with a job which he will begin a week after next and in the interim we have been both been blessed with an opportunity to work insurance files from our home computers.12 hours a day for the past 3 days.so Shabbat was a welcome relief! There are still a number of things that need to work out, but I keep getting confirmations from friends like you and from HaShem's word. Psalm 16:8 I have set HaShem always before me: surely He is at my right hand. I shall not be moved." Also verse 9 and ff .Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices: my flesh also dwells secure. HaShem is indeed Our Rock and Our Redeemer! Shavua tov and Chag Sameach Marvin! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:19 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Thanks Betty. Had you on my mind lately, as they use to say... been lifting you up to the father. Southern means, been prayin for ya! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/065b2bcd/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jun 7 21:09:30 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:09:30 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. Message-ID: <484B3F5A.5030402@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/eb1a899f/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jun 7 21:20:29 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:20:29 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] Message-ID: <484B41ED.2070206@westnet.com.au> Todah Kim and Elisheva. Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? Molto grazie. JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:00:10 -0500 Size: 51430 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/932d800a/attachment.eml From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 21:27:47 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:27:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <00a701c8c904$9ecdd1c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <02CAA43A506A4C0E8AC112BBCB73775D@bettygivin> Marvin, a most beautiful post.thank you for sharing with Amber, and for letting us "listen in!" Love and Blessings, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:12 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Amber, My children are grown now.. I feel like I failed them in so many ways. They were young when we really started out of the Baal worship. I personally wrestle to no end with what to tell them. My conclusion, tell them what you honestly know and understand at the time. Teach them that as man fell away form God in the garden we are now on a return trip back to the father. As any trip there is much to see along the way, many places that we stop for a while to pitch our tent and make camp. Some time we stop to go exploring and think of all the neat things we learn and find every time we roll over a log, flip over a rock or look under a leaf. Teach them the stories of the Taneck(Hebrew Bible) make the characters and stories come alive to them. In every bible story or reading look for the teaching that will apply to their life's at their age. That practical application. See what happens when you tell lies! Look how God took care of those that obeyed him! And look at Samson. a super man as long as his heart was of a pure motive. But, then his motives changed and look what happened! As far as the NT tell the stories as you see them, you just have to weed the garden as you look for the veggies. My father is gone now, he raised 9 childern and all but one has a heart to serve God. Regardless of their theology... from his personal example the most important thing to do for your children is let them see your relationship with God. Let them see, you read and study your bible, let them hear you in your prayer closet, talking to your father. Let them see by your example that you attempt to live your life by his word as best as you can based on where your at in your understanding. My father use to counsel parents about dealing with their trouble children. Every one of them he would ask, How much time do you spend praying for your child? Do your children ever hear you call their names out to God? Most of the parents would drop their heads. My father was a wise man. I saw my father broke and I saw him with money in his pocklet. I saw him on the mountain top and living in the hot dry desert valley. I saw him laugh and I saw him cry. But, maybe one of the strongest impressions he made on me was when he lay on the floor(face) and cried like a baby as he talked to God. He put his relationship with God first and his family second and we all knew it. Do the best you can.. God makes up the difference. Shalom _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Hi Amber, The words below from Pat and my daughter, Kim are wise words indeed. The Tanakh is the ultimate measure. I think it is always okay to say, "I don't know," to your children as well as to anyone that asks. After all, who has all the answers any way. Although Kim was an adult when I first learned about Torah and had the opportunity to introduce the Ancient Paths to her, there was a lot of "I don't knows" in our early discussions.and still are; the important thing is look at her now.she is still very diligent in her search.and now she is teaching me things.and what a gift that is! May your children "rise up and call you blessed!" I think if you love HaShem with all your heart and do your best to impart that to them and teach them Words of Torah as you "walk by the way, as you sit in your house, as you lie down, and as you arise," and leave the rest up to HaShem, you will be blessed. Amber, I know that you already do these things.many of us have seen you with your children, and children with characteristics like yours do not just blossom by themselves without being nourished and taught the Ways of HaShem by caring and loving parents, such as you and Chris. Hope your Shabbat has been one of joy and blessing, Elisheva, Betty P.S. About the vegetarianism, yes it is interesting that a number of us have that lifestyle.perhaps we are just preparing ourselves for what is to come.and they "shall not kill or destroy on my Holy Mountain." _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children Amber, I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. Kim On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. A fellow searcher, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/d1b109b7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 21:52:11 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:52:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Coincidence? What are those anyway? In-Reply-To: <1530920062-1212884655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2004810724-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Right, John...to quote our brother Hanoch, "there are no coincidences!" BTW, WHERE IS HANOCH?? Has it only been one day not counting Shabbat of course... If you are out there, Hanoch, I hope you had a blessed Shabbat and are now getting a good night's sleep up there in the Big APPLE!!! We love you! Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:17 PM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for ConfessingprayerforbeforeShavuot] Wow! The topic I am going to talk on at the Vineyard tomorrow is G-d's conception of order vs ours and how it is reflected in Psalm 104. Part of that concept is the theory of fractal organization (a basic tenet of chaos theory) as well as quantum symmetry. I was supposed to give that talk last week but it was postponed. Now this shows up! So much for coincidences! John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "kim alvarado" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:30:03 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com.? The one on rational thinking is wonderful.? We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah.? The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away.? Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins >: Yes!? Thank you so much, Joe!? This was a marvelous post, and much appreciated!!!? Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for our Return to HaSHem! ? TORAH!? TORAH! TORAH! CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! GET THE GREEK OUT! THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! ? Pat/Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Yes! Yes, Joe!!!? Toda rabba to both you and Steve.? Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!!? To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba? and Shabbat Shalom, brother, ? Elisheva/Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] ? Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ??????????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????.? {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ????????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????:? ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ??????????-??????, ???????? ?????:? ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ??????????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ???????-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????.???????????????????????????????????????????? 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil.? Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. ? ? ? ? ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Jun 7 21:47:40 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 02:47:40 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Coincidence? What are those anyway? In-Reply-To: References: <1530920062-1212884655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2004810724-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1652708107-1212893701-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2026839131-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I was wondering that myself. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:52:11 To: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Coincidence? What are those anyway? Right, John...to quote our brother Hanoch, "there are no coincidences!" BTW, WHERE IS HANOCH?? Has it only been one day not counting Shabbat of course... If you are out there, Hanoch, I hope you had a blessed Shabbat and are now getting a good night's sleep up there in the Big APPLE!!! We love you! Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:17 PM To: Dialogue Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for ConfessingprayerforbeforeShavuot] Wow! The topic I am going to talk on at the Vineyard tomorrow is G-d's conception of order vs ours and how it is reflected in Psalm 104. Part of that concept is the theory of fractal organization (a basic tenet of chaos theory) as well as quantum symmetry. I was supposed to give that talk last week but it was postponed. Now this shows up! So much for coincidences! John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "kim alvarado" Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:30:03 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com.? The one on rational thinking is wonderful.? We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah.? The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away.? Kim 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins >: Yes!? Thank you so much, Joe!? This was a marvelous post, and much appreciated!!!? Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer for our Return to HaSHem! ? TORAH!? TORAH! TORAH! CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! GET THE GREEK OUT! THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! ? Pat/Avigail From: Betty Givin Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] Yes! Yes, Joe!!!? Toda rabba to both you and Steve.? Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!!? To use your words and quote from Deut 30? ?we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba? and Shabbat Shalom, brother, ? Elisheva/Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] ? Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand? GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?"? "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ??????????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????.? {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ????????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????:? ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ??????????-??????, ???????? ?????:? ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ??????????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ???????-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????.???????????????????????????????????????????? 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil.? Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. ? ? ? ? ---------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Jun 7 21:59:30 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 21:59:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. In-Reply-To: <484B3F5A.5030402@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Shalom Joe, Glad you enjoyed the link to the Western Wall! Glad you had a good Sabbath! The Shavuot Chag sounds so lovely.are you and your wife going to join them? It does sound like another Gan Eden. Thanks for the link.the music was beautiful and spoke to my heart.yes, it does long for Yerushalayim! Now that Shabbat is over, I have to get back to work.yes even at 10:00pm.have to make up for what I didn't do today.the break and Shabbat peace was marvelous!!! BTW, the photos of Mamma Sheep Sarah and baby lamb Yitchak still hasn't come thru.hope it does.if not, maybe you could break it up and send it in several parts. Love and Blessings, Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 9:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SHAVUOT SAMEACH. Shalom Elisheva, Todah for your Aish movie link. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I do not know how I missed it. Maybe due to my work commitments. It has been very hectic on the building sites. We had another beautiful Shabbat up the mountain yesterday. The group send all their love and regards. I have posted some more photos of Mamma Sheep Sarah and baby lamb Yitzchak. The post is still with the administrator due to the size restriction. Savlanut . We are blessed in the land down under as tomorrow , Shavuot, is a public holiday as we celebrate the Queen's birthday. This is such a blessing to me as I get the day off . This will make the keeping of Chag Shavuot much more pleasurable. All our Sabra Yisraeli friends are heading south to the Northern Rivers of New South Wales to spend the Chag with Avi and his wife Zehvit on their organic farm in true Yisraeli style. HaShem has been so generous to us. Another Gan Edan. My dear sister, I also sense your longing to be in Yerushalayim. I am sending you the next best thing. We must all be content for the time being. This is as close as we can be for now. The true shalom of Yerushalayim will only come when His Sh'kenah Glory returns.Remember that the word shalom comes from the root word "shalem" which means completeness. The nations are trying to sabotage HaShem's Will and prophetic Word. Little do they know what fate lays ahead. May His glory return speedily in our day as we unite together with our brothers and sisters of Beit Yehudah in Achdut to complete the completeness. And in the words of this beautiful song " I long for you!!!! "May we merit the scenes of this video. Chag Shavuot Sameach. Your Achi JOE.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi2ouVx2U3g&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/51e815e9/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sat Jun 7 22:08:41 2008 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:08:41 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for ConfessingprayerforbeforeShavuot] References: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin><1c8dbb6e0806071630l7c0cdcd2ueb19c40d0768e208@mail.gmail.com> <1530920062-1212884655-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2004810724-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <039b01c8c914$f4aa75c0$6600a8c0@davesbook> I'm impressed dave ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Dialogue" Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for ConfessingprayerforbeforeShavuot] > Wow! > > The topic I am going to talk on at the Vineyard tomorrow is G-d's > conception of order vs ours and how it is reflected in Psalm 104. Part of > that concept is the theory of fractal organization (a basic tenet of chaos > theory) as well as quantum symmetry. > > I was supposed to give that talk last week but it was postponed. Now this > shows up! > > So much for coincidences! > > John C. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: "kim alvarado" > > Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:30:03 > To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer > forbeforeShavuot] > > > Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on > rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His > Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. > > Kim > > > 2008/6/7 Pat Robbins >: > > > Yes! Thank you so much, Joe! This was a marvelous post, and much > appreciated!!! Let's join together in praying Steve's Confession Prayer > for our Return to HaSHem! > > TORAH! TORAH! TORAH! > CUT TIES WITH LIES!!!! > GET THE GREEK OUT! > THE WORD IS NEAR YOU...THAT YOU MAY OBSERVE IT!!!!!! > > Pat/Avigail > > > > > From: Betty Givin > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 5:04 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer > forbeforeShavuot] > > > > > > > Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also Kim > and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned > today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding > Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be > moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30? > ?we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal > word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in > Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it > down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross > the waters to fetch it for us?" > "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. > Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, > > Elisheva/Betty > > > > ---------------- > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for > beforeShavuot] > > Todah Rabbah Steve, > You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This > outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have > engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been > cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the > blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the > misunderstanding of Paul . > In spite of all of this we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have > revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your > Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it > and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " > Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" > "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you > may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. > We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our > only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth > forever. > > ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) > ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????. {?} > 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; > they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they > have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} > > ?? ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? > ??????????, ??????. > 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; > for Thou art my praise. > > ?? ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. > 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come > now.' > > ?? ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? > ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. > 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; > neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came > out of my lips was manifest before Thee. > > ?? ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????. > 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Jer 17 > v13-17. > Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate > the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. > May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the > residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. > Chag Shavuot Sameach. > JOE. > > > > > > ---------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jun 8 05:35:32 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:35:32 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806081037.m58AbBd4021768@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/f983641c/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 8 06:25:54 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 07:25:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] CLASSIC... Message-ID: _Click here: YouTube - Rabbi Meir Kahane Interview in 1984_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoFQ1lKWNrI) **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/fc390057/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 08:41:00 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:41:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] CLASSIC... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SO POWERFUL, Hanoch! May HaSHem lead us today as we seek His face! ~ Avigail From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] CLASSIC... Click here: YouTube - Rabbi Meir Kahane Interview in 1984 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/d69bf678/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 08:50:15 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:50:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" In-Reply-To: <200806081037.m58AbBd4021768@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806081037.m58AbBd4021768@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: "Shiviti HaSHem l'nagdi tamid!" "I set the L-RD before me always!" BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! May the small remnant come forth!!!!!! Love, Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 6:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" Friends, Baruch HaShem! What I was hoping for is starting to happen, receiving the same Divine communiques (PRs, SEs, dreams, etc), by two or more people, to verify the authenticity and validity of these Divine directives for our times. The PR of Psalm 16:8 received by both Betty and Pat tell us the general orientation (pertaining to any and all subjects) we need to have in this discussion, and on the homeward bound journey of our lives in the midbar / wilderness of our times. It echoes the Divine directive for us. The synagogue I attend has the beginning of this verse embroidered on the parochet / curtain in front of the doors of the ark where our Torah scroll is kept: "Shiviti HaShem l'nagdi tamid'" / "I set the LORD before me always." Since Betty and Pat disclosed their PRs, I am disclosing this one to add to theirs for a composite message for all to consider: On 7-28-2000 I received the following PRs: "When thou saidst, 'Seek ye my face,' my heart said unto to Thee, 'Thy face, LORD will I seek.'" (Psalm 27:8) This verse seems to tell us that HaShem calls us, our Soul / higher self hears it, and then our Soul speaks to us, which we sense as a deep desire arising form our depths, our "hearts," to which we respond. This mechanism hearkens to the last verse in Malachi, where the hearts of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, call to us, and then we reciprocate by responding to that call to "return to the Ancient Path of life they tread, and to the Covenant they made." On 9-08-07 I received the following PR in the same vein "This is the generation of them that seek Him, that seek thy face, O God of Jacob." (Psalm 24:6) Friends, brothers and sisters, fellow Israelites, we need to "seek the face of our God," the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob earnestly, for directives of what to do. Am asking all to use this phrase earnestly in our prayers often, especially now for the festival of Shavuot. Am of the opinion, that HaShem is seeking a small group of the remnant to use in a pioneering work within His greater Work of Eli Y-h in the last days. We prepared not our hearts in times past, let us prepare to meet God this coming day of the Firstfruits, (Psalm 78:8). He tells us: Prepare to meet thy God, O Israel, (Amos 4:12). Let us do so, by confessing our sins and the sins of our fathers. The time has come for us to do our task to which HaShem has called us. Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." At 01:33 PM 6/7/2008, you wrote: Last evening, as I prayed, I very clearly heard "16:8" (which I believed was referring to Psalm 16:8), and then the word, "Ahavah." Have just today realized it is the same verse Betty received (copied here below my post) from HaSHem just a few days ago! I think this is important because two of us have heard the same thing, which emphasizes the meaning, and is probably intended as a word of encouragement to all of us. "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." (Psalm 16:8) I then did a word study on the Hebrew word I also received: "Ahavah" (aleph, hay, vav, hay). It means "love, affection, tender friendship." I think that what HaSHem was showing us through this doubled PR ("personal revelation," as Steve Mathe refers to them) was that as long as the L-RD is our Focus and Source, He will be beside us, showing us the Way. Therefore we should not be moved from what He teaches us through His Tanach. I believe He added the word "Ahavah" ("love") because it requires love to keep reiterating the things upon which we stand firm, as we try to dialogue our way through this most monumental event of our Regathering. The last 3 verses of Ps 16, verses 9-11, are also very important. They speak of something that was very much on my heart yesterday concerning eternal life being the free gift of HaSHem to all who, through His Tanach (the Ancient Path), keep Him "always before them." "Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices: my flesh also dwells secure. For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; nor will thou suffer thy holy one to see the pit. Thou wilt make known to me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." Psalm 16:9-12 I then did a word search on the last word of vs. 11: "evermore." It is the Hebrew word, "natzach" (nun, tzaddi, chet). It means " to perpetuate, eternize, eternalize, immortalize." For ALL those who set HaSHem before them always, He WILL make known His "Path of LIFE" in which there are "pleasures ETERNALLY." Love, Pat/Avigail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Betty Givin [ mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:41 AM To: 'UI List' Subject: Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 16:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other.from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to 'do' Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy.and here I am.when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing. Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn't asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one.and so I decided to look it up.and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ."May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share.and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse." "Be still and know that I am HaShem." Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/7454573e/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 10:15:21 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:15:21 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb In-Reply-To: <005201c8c8de$6e6755e0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca> <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com> <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC> <005201c8c8de$6e6755e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Vegan excludes eggs and cheese (all animal products). On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 4:38 PM, mhyde wrote: > Patty and Amber, > > What is the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan? > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *chris fordham > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 2:26 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hey Patty: > > > > I was vegetarian when I married Chris. I was cooking for him and ended up > switching over for a while but now he and our children are vegetarian also. > We just in the past month have decided to go vegan. We tried it once before > and only made it about 8 months. > > > > My big question on the blood issue is how come Torah forbids us to eat > blood but the wine is suppose to "represent the blood" as we drink it? That > doesn't make since to Chris and I. Can anyone explain? Maybe it is a silly > question. > > > > Amber > > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Jessica wrote: > > *Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but > turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a > dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are > you doing this? Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified > and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem > is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with > the exception of fish - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)* > > *Shalom* > > *Jessica* > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Patty > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM > > *Subject:* RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the > animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any > slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today > are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac > without realizing where it came from. *"If slaughterhouses had glass > walls, everyone** **would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 * > > Love & Blessings, > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? > My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me > if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and > should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I > believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are > better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we > are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our > appetites for meat. > > I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know > that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they > are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a > righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's > chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently > waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted > down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their > life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in > most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before > death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has > taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least > possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have > the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does > not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death > either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is > totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher > eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of > their G-d. > > Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing > a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, > portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did > it. And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah as portended in that movie > we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!! > > If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice, in Bible times, > would have been the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life > for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life > in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, > did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the > New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this > straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the > truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand > it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first > repented of the sin. > > Cornie > > > > Pat Robbins wrote: > > Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters. There is no way to avoid going > there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path. We are the > repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way. Ours was the detour off > His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return. I think that if we > have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and > most foundational beliefs. For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree > together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly > defined in Tenach. I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred. However, to > believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, > is something I cannot find in Torah. I only see HaSHem telling me that it > is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and > give me life. > > > > I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in > all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster > child. When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's > hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; > therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really > concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon. > > > > Love, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com > > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb > > > > Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. > Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul > was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write > him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed > blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years > removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I > mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not > have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man > where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just > does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on > the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I > think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and > to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor > as ourselves. > > > > And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt > offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those > same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah > destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the > same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, > and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans > killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs who > took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be > honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's > Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. *Just kidding*. > > > ------------------------------ > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/9c5b18cc/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Jun 8 10:28:29 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:28:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8B731851FE574C4D8224987352D9EC9D@bettygivin> Beautiful, Steve.and also Pat.this is indeed confirmation. I will have to write at a later time more about Psalm 27 and the verses preceeding your PR, Steve, verses 4-6.these verses have been in my heart since before we converted and were brought up before our Beit Dien.so very special.but I"ve got to go to work.after only 2 hours sleep last night. I am trying to make up for not working yesterday and taking off tonight and tomorrow for Shavuot, so I am really 'under the gun' so to speak. Our company that we are doing this short term work for doesn't really concern itself with Shabbat and Shavuot, they just want to make sure that we do our quota. Love, Elisheva P.S. I love your Hebrew Pat, and yes, may it be _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:50 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" "Shiviti HaSHem l'nagdi tamid!" "I set the L-RD before me always!" BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!! May the small remnant come forth!!!!!! Love, Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 6:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Psalms 16:8 ~ Doubled "PR" Friends, Baruch HaShem! What I was hoping for is starting to happen, receiving the same Divine communiques (PRs, SEs, dreams, etc), by two or more people, to verify the authenticity and validity of these Divine directives for our times. The PR of Psalm 16:8 received by both Betty and Pat tell us the general orientation (pertaining to any and all subjects) we need to have in this discussion, and on the homeward bound journey of our lives in the midbar / wilderness of our times. It echoes the Divine directive for us. The synagogue I attend has the beginning of this verse embroidered on the parochet / curtain in front of the doors of the ark where our Torah scroll is kept: "Shiviti HaShem l'nagdi tamid'" / "I set the LORD before me always." Since Betty and Pat disclosed their PRs, I am disclosing this one to add to theirs for a composite message for all to consider: On 7-28-2000 I received the following PRs: "When thou saidst, 'Seek ye my face,' my heart said unto to Thee, 'Thy face, LORD will I seek.'" (Psalm 27:8) This verse seems to tell us that HaShem calls us, our Soul / higher self hears it, and then our Soul speaks to us, which we sense as a deep desire arising form our depths, our "hearts," to which we respond. This mechanism hearkens to the last verse in Malachi, where the hearts of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, call to us, and then we reciprocate by responding to that call to "return to the Ancient Path of life they tread, and to the Covenant they made." On 9-08-07 I received the following PR in the same vein "This is the generation of them that seek Him, that seek thy face, O God of Jacob." (Psalm 24:6) Friends, brothers and sisters, fellow Israelites, we need to "seek the face of our God," the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob earnestly, for directives of what to do. Am asking all to use this phrase earnestly in our prayers often, especially now for the festival of Shavuot. Am of the opinion, that HaShem is seeking a small group of the remnant to use in a pioneering work within His greater Work of Eli Y-h in the last days. We prepared not our hearts in times past, let us prepare to meet God this coming day of the Firstfruits, (Psalm 78:8). He tells us: Prepare to meet thy God, O Israel, (Amos 4:12). Let us do so, by confessing our sins and the sins of our fathers. The time has come for us to do our task to which HaShem has called us. Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." At 01:33 PM 6/7/2008, you wrote: Last evening, as I prayed, I very clearly heard "16:8" (which I believed was referring to Psalm 16:8), and then the word, "Ahavah." Have just today realized it is the same verse Betty received (copied here below my post) from HaSHem just a few days ago! I think this is important because two of us have heard the same thing, which emphasizes the meaning, and is probably intended as a word of encouragement to all of us. "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." (Psalm 16:8) I then did a word study on the Hebrew word I also received: "Ahavah" (aleph, hay, vav, hay). It means "love, affection, tender friendship." I think that what HaSHem was showing us through this doubled PR ("personal revelation," as Steve Mathe refers to them) was that as long as the L-RD is our Focus and Source, He will be beside us, showing us the Way. Therefore we should not be moved from what He teaches us through His Tanach. I believe He added the word "Ahavah" ("love") because it requires love to keep reiterating the things upon which we stand firm, as we try to dialogue our way through this most monumental event of our Regathering. The last 3 verses of Ps 16, verses 9-11, are also very important. They speak of something that was very much on my heart yesterday concerning eternal life being the free gift of HaSHem to all who, through His Tanach (the Ancient Path), keep Him "always before them." "Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices: my flesh also dwells secure. For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; nor will thou suffer thy holy one to see the pit. Thou wilt make known to me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." Psalm 16:9-12 I then did a word search on the last word of vs. 11: "evermore." It is the Hebrew word, "natzach" (nun, tzaddi, chet). It means " to perpetuate, eternize, eternalize, immortalize." For ALL those who set HaSHem before them always, He WILL make known His "Path of LIFE" in which there are "pleasures ETERNALLY." Love, Pat/Avigail _____ From: Betty Givin [ mailto:bkgivin at charter.net ] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:41 AM To: 'UI List' Subject: Psalms 16:8 "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 16:8 For the past two hours I have been tossing and turning and totally unable to fall asleep due to my inability to shut my mind off from all the exciting messages of the day. My mind just kept darting from one thing to the other.from the surge the Ephramite movement is taking and all the possibilities that lie ahead for us, to aliyah, to the current state of Israel, to my own personal struggles in seeking to 'do' Torah, to the Yad Tova (Good Hand) that seems to be reaching out to so many of us in a powerful wave of inspiration and energy.and here I am.when I really need to sleep so that I can have the energy to do all the things I need to do, trying to figure it all out and determine where my place is in all this and what Hashem wants me to be doing. Well, finally I decided to just get up. Just as I made that decision and began to get out of bed, Psalm 16:8 came into my head very clearly. I hadn't asked for a verse, but it seems that HaShem thought I needed one.and so I decided to look it up.and I think it is not only for me, but for all of us, as a confirmation that He is right there for us as long as we keep ourselves centered on Him! ."May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, O G-d! Just thought I would share.and now I should probably listen to the admonition in another verse." "Be still and know that I am HaShem." Much love, many blessings, Betty/Elisheva _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/f1a49aa6/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 10:28:33 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:28:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <00a701c8c904$9ecdd1c0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> <00a701c8c904$9ecdd1c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: Marvin, Thank you for your most encouraging words. Chris and Amber On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:11 PM, mhyde wrote: > Amber, > > > > My children are grown now?. I feel like I failed them in so many ways. > They were young when we really started out of the Baal worship. I > personally wrestle to no end with what to tell them. My conclusion, tell > them what you honestly know and understand at the time. Teach them that as > man fell away form God in the garden we are now on a return trip back to > the father. As any trip there is much to see along the way, many places > that we stop for a while to pitch our tent and make camp. Some time we stop > to go exploring and think of all the neat things we learn and find every > time we roll over a log, flip over a rock or look under a leaf. Teach them > the stories of the Taneck(Hebrew Bible) make the characters and stories come > alive to them. In every bible story or reading look for the teaching that > will apply to their life's at their age. That practical application. See > what happens when you tell lies! Look how God took care of those that > obeyed him! And look at Samson? a super man as long as his heart was of a > pure motive. But, then his motives changed and look what happened! As far > as the NT tell the stories as you see them, you just have to weed the garden > as you look for the veggies. > > > > My father is gone now, he raised 9 childern and all but one has a heart to > serve God. Regardless of their theology?.. from his personal example the > most important thing to do for your children is let them see your > relationship with God. Let them see, you read and study your bible, let > them hear you in your prayer closet, talking to your father. Let them see > by your example that you attempt to live your life by his word as best as > you can based on where your at in your understanding. My father use to > counsel parents about dealing with their trouble children. Every one of > them he would ask, How much time do you spend praying for your child? Do > your children ever hear you call their names out to God? Most of the > parents would drop their heads. My father was a wise man. I saw my father > broke and I saw him with money in his pocklet. I saw him on the mountain top > and living in the hot dry desert valley. I saw him laugh and I saw him cry. > But, maybe one of the strongest impressions he made on me was when he lay on > the floor(face) and cried like a baby as he talked to God. He put his > relationship with God first and his family second and we all knew it. Do > the best you can?. God makes up the difference. > > > > Shalom > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Betty Givin > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:09 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children > > > > *Hi Amber,* > > * * > > *The words below from Pat and my daughter, Kim are wise words indeed. The > Tanakh is the ultimate measure. I think it is always okay to say, "I don't > know," to your children as well as to anyone that asks. After all, who has all > the answers any way. * > > * * > > *Although Kim was an adult when I first learned about Torah and had the > opportunity to introduce the Ancient Paths to her, there was a lot of "I > don't knows" in our early discussions?and still are; the important thing is > look at her now?she is still very diligent in her search?and now she is > teaching me things?and what a gift that is!* > > * * > > *May your children "rise up and call you blessed!" I think if you love > HaShem with all your heart and do your best to impart that to them and teach > them Words of Torah as you "walk by the way, as you sit in your house, as > you lie down, and as you arise," and leave the rest up to HaShem, you will > be blessed.* > > * * > > *Amber, I know that you already do these things?many of us have seen you > with your children, and children with characteristics like yours do not just > blossom by themselves without being nourished and taught the Ways of HaShem > by caring and loving parents, such as you and Chris.* > > * * > > *Hope your Shabbat has been one of joy and blessing,* > > * * > > *Elisheva, Betty* > > * * > > *P.S. About the vegetarianism, yes it is interesting that a number of us > have that lifestyle?perhaps we are just preparing ourselves for what is to > come?and they "shall not kill or destroy on my Holy Mountain?"* > > * * > > * * > > * * > > * * > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:42 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children > > > > Amber, > > I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go > wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them > that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything > because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest > will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. > > BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. > > Kim > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > > I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are > myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, > Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a > degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the > teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, > and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth > will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. > > > > A fellow searcher, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role > > > > Hey Pat! > > > > Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have > taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been > chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are > suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I > wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too > many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! > > > > Searching for ourselves and our children, > > Amber > > > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > > Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, > > > > You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of > seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I > also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to > love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have > come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his > name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his > memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach > us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. > > > > Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each > other. > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hey Pat: > > > > I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a > Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J > word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a > verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it > down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not > confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! > > > > Chris and Amber > > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > > Ok....im gona try a reply here, > > > > I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early > life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea > out of that mindset. > > > > Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange > children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week > she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately > for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (*her > words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other > day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well > dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to > cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' > and they move on to the next person"....(*based on the doctrine that > "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). *I am truly blessed > to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, > and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for > all. (can I say that?). > > I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much > prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS > (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken > during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man > that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an > influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! > > > > *Just trying to fit it all together....* > > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Pat Robbins > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into > seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see > this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more > noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, > who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. > reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I > recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from > school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you > know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS > THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that > his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he > answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought > there was blood in that candy. > > > > I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything > to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern > Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of > teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do > believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would > expect to see him in most Scriptures. > > > > > > Love, > > > > Pat > > > > > > *From:* Jessica > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > *Hi Hanoch,* > > *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* *"What > *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be > 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed > in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words > did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah > of HaShem? * > > *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of > Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though > dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in > every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the > planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he > definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short > before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the > trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he > had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * > > *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit > Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was > already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying > to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. > * > > *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. > **"Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate > it. Toda!" *Does that help?* > > *Kindest regards,* > > *Jessica* > > *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo > dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a > 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hey Jessica, > > > > I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been > struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed > some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which > being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to > be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In > other words, why MUST he be 'there?' > > > > Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our > history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), > that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in > the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of > G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of > Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of > history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for > our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be > viewed as a teacher of Torah? > > > > I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different > religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see > where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb > either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me see it > from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! > > *Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah* > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/c80fa948/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 10:32:52 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:32:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> References: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> <18C1CBA2D4BF4BE88F772EAB83587F41@bettygivin> Message-ID: Betty: Thanks for your encouragement! We love all the kind words. I guess we've all had these questions! Chris and Amber On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > *Hi Amber,* > > * * > > *The words below from Pat and my daughter, Kim are wise words indeed. The > Tanakh is the ultimate measure. I think it is always okay to say, "I don't > know," to your children as well as to anyone that asks. After all, who has all > the answers any way. * > > * * > > *Although Kim was an adult when I first learned about Torah and had the > opportunity to introduce the Ancient Paths to her, there was a lot of "I > don't knows" in our early discussions?and still are; the important thing is > look at her now?she is still very diligent in her search?and now she is > teaching me things?and what a gift that is!* > > * * > > *May your children "rise up and call you blessed!" I think if you love > HaShem with all your heart and do your best to impart that to them and teach > them Words of Torah as you "walk by the way, as you sit in your house, as > you lie down, and as you arise," and leave the rest up to HaShem, you will > be blessed.* > > * * > > *Amber, I know that you already do these things?many of us have seen you > with your children, and children with characteristics like yours do not just > blossom by themselves without being nourished and taught the Ways of HaShem > by caring and loving parents, such as you and Chris.* > > * * > > *Hope your Shabbat has been one of joy and blessing,* > > * * > > *Elisheva, Betty* > > * * > > *P.S. About the vegetarianism, yes it is interesting that a number of us > have that lifestyle?perhaps we are just preparing ourselves for what is to > come?and they "shall not kill or destroy on my Holy Mountain?"* > > * * > > * * > > * * > > * * > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 6:42 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children > > > > Amber, > > I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go > wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them > that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything > because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest > will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. > > BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. > > Kim > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > > I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are > myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, > Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a > degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the > teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, > and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth > will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. > > > > A fellow searcher, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role > > > > Hey Pat! > > > > Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have > taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been > chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are > suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I > wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too > many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! > > > > Searching for ourselves and our children, > > Amber > > > > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > > Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, > > > > You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of > seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I > also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to > love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have > come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his > name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his > memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach > us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. > > > > Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each > other. > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > > *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hey Pat: > > > > I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a > Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J > word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a > verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it > down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not > confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! > > > > Chris and Amber > > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > > Ok....im gona try a reply here, > > > > I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early > life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea > out of that mindset. > > > > Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange > children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week > she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately > for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (*her > words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other > day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well > dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to > cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' > and they move on to the next person"....(*based on the doctrine that > "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). *I am truly blessed > to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, > and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for > all. (can I say that?). > > I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much > prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS > (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken > during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man > that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as an > influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! > > > > *Just trying to fit it all together....* > > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Pat Robbins > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into > seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see > this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more > noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, > who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. > reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I > recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from > school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you > know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS > THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that > his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he > answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought > there was blood in that candy. > > > > I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything > to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern > Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of > teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do > believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would > expect to see him in most Scriptures. > > > > > > Love, > > > > Pat > > > > > > *From:* Jessica > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > *Hi Hanoch,* > > *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* *"What > *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be > 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed > in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words > did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah > of HaShem? * > > *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of > Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though > dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in > every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the > planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he > definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short > before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the > trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he > had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * > > *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit > Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was > already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying > to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. > * > > *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. > **"Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate > it. Toda!" *Does that help?* > > *Kindest regards,* > > *Jessica* > > *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo > dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a > 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' > > > > Hey Jessica, > > > > I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been > struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed > some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which > being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to > be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his role? In > other words, why MUST he be 'there?' > > > > Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our > history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY*), > that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in > the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of > G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of > Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of > history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for > our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be > viewed as a teacher of Torah? > > > > I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different > religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see > where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb > either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." *Please help me see it > from YOUR perspective*, I would really appreciate it. Toda! > > *Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah* > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at > AOL Food . > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/a85c22a5/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 10:33:58 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:33:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Amber-Teaching Your Children In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0806071642h7c0692edrbf456dddab1d7451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Kim for encouraging us further! Chris and Amber On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Amber, > > I agree with Pat. Stick with the Torah and the Tannack and you can't go > wrong. If they ask you something you aren't sure about that just tell them > that. I made the mistake many years ago not teaching by children anything > because I was confused. Just stay with what you know to be Truth , the rest > will work itself out in Hashem's perfect timing. > > BTW, it is interesting how many of us are vegetarians. > > Kim > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> I REALLY do understand your dilemma, Amber! The pagan attachments are >> myriad! I turned my personal focus only to the Tenach (Torah, Prophets, >> Writings) many years ago, but I know that my position is also tempered to a >> degree by what I learned from R. Yeshua, and even somewhat by some of the >> teachings of Paul. Perhaps it would be wise to try teaching only Tenach, >> and see where that leads. Anything you have already learned that is truth >> will endure in the brilliant light of the Tenach. >> >> A fellow searcher, >> >> Pat >> >> *From:* chris fordham >> *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 11:44 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role >> >> Hey Pat! >> >> Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have >> taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been >> chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are >> suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I >> wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too >> many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! >> >> Searching for ourselves and our children, >> Amber >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, >>> >>> You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of >>> seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I >>> also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to >>> love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have >>> come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his >>> name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his >>> memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach >>> us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. >>> >>> Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each >>> other. >>> >>> Pat >>> >>> *From:* chris fordham >>> *Sent:* Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>> >>> Hey Pat: >>> >>> I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had >>> a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J >>> word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a >>> verse *under* the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took >>> it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not >>> confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! >>> >>> Chris and Amber >>> >>> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: >>> >>>> Ok....im gona try a reply here, >>>> >>>> I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our >>>> early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get >>>> that idea out of that mindset. >>>> >>>> Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some >>>> strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once >>>> a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her >>>> friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this >>>> Jewish thing" (*her words*), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I >>>> got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her >>>> response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk >>>> and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she >>>> could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....( >>>> *based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the >>>> question?). *I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of >>>> the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle >>>> from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). >>>> I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure >>>> much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS >>>> (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken >>>> during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man >>>> that walked this earth several thousand years ago*, (the seeker*), as >>>> an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! >>>> >>>> *Just trying to fit it all together....* >>>> dave >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* Pat Robbins >>>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>>> >>>> Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into >>>> seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see >>>> this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more >>>> noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, >>>> who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. >>>> reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I >>>> recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from >>>> school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you >>>> know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS >>>> THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that >>>> his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he >>>> answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought >>>> there was blood in that candy. >>>> >>>> I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost >>>> everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a >>>> Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort >>>> of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do >>>> believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would >>>> expect to see him in most Scriptures. >>>> >>>> >>>> Love, >>>> >>>> Pat >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Jessica >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM >>>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>>> >>>> *Hi Hanoch,* >>>> *In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question* >>>> *"What *is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he >>>> be 'there?'"* I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets >>>> succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In >>>> other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the >>>> pure Torah of HaShem? * >>>> *Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of >>>> Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though >>>> dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in >>>> every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the >>>> planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he >>>> definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short >>>> before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the >>>> trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he >>>> had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. * >>>> *Hanoch, I don't think there is a *"NEED on the part of people to 'fit >>>> Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." *because he was >>>> already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying >>>> to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. >>>> * >>>> *He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be >>>> denied. **"**Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would >>>> really appreciate it. Toda!" *Does that help?* >>>> *Kindest regards,* >>>> *Jessica* >>>> *PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am >>>> toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it >>>> is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it?* >>>> ** >>>> ** >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com >>>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>>> *Sent:* Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM >>>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' >>>> >>>> Hey Jessica, >>>> >>>> I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've >>>> been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can >>>> shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary >>>> (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he >>>> have to be "beside" G-d and man?? *What *is it that necessitates his >>>> role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' >>>> >>>> Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our >>>> history? It almost seems at times (and I *DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY >>>> *), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - >>>> somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be >>>> the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a >>>> "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish >>>> sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's >>>> sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he >>>> simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? >>>> >>>> I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally >>>> different religious background then most of you, I am really, really >>>> struggling to see where Yeshua (*has to*) fit in. I'm not too smart, >>>> but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." >>>> *Please help me see it from YOUR perspective*, I would really >>>> appreciate it. Toda! >>>> *Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah* >>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites >>>> at AOL Food >>>> . >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/71616182/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Jun 7 04:49:09 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:49:09 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: LOST SHEEP] Message-ID: <484A5995.5030204@westnet.com.au> Shavuah Tov Chaverim, Another beautiful and serene Shabbat spent on the mountain . This is just an update. Mamma Sarah and son Yitzchak are doing well. Meet some of the flock of Gan Edan. Chag Shavout Sameach. JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: LOST SHEEP Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:37:12 +1000 Size: 761322 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080607/e0521c59/attachment.eml From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 11:34:47 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:34:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] [Fwd: LOST SHEEP] In-Reply-To: <484A5995.5030204@westnet.com.au> References: <484A5995.5030204@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Hey Joe! So glad you got to go back! Give Ally a hug for us! What beautiful pictures! The children loved them! Thanks! Chris and Amber On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:49 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Shavuah Tov Chaverim, > > Another beautiful and serene Shabbat spent on the mountain . This is just > an update. Mamma Sarah and son Yitzchak are doing well. > Meet some of the flock of Gan Edan. > > Chag Shavout Sameach. > JOE. > > Shalom Yahdah, > > Thank you and your family for the serene and peaceful spirit that you bring > to Shabbat . Leo and I are very much indebted to HaShem for your > hospitality. Baruch HaShem. :-) > > May He bless all your endeavours. > Shavuah Tov. > > Your Achi > JOE. > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/fdb80b5f/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 11:41:33 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:41:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Fw: The Parent's Prayer In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c8c820$3a0c4350$6101a8c0@authoriz9387e3> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: chris fordham Date: Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:41 PM Subject: Fwd: Fw: The Parent's Prayer To: Chris and Amber Patty, Pat, Betty, Kim, Marvin and All: Check out this prayer that was sent to me the day I received all the encouragement from the dialogue! B"H Tonight is *Erev Rosh Chodesh* for the month of Sivan. The classic work, *Shelah HaKadosh*, contains a prayer that parents can recite for their children at any time of the year - but especially on *Erev Rosh Chodesh* *Sivan,*(tonight) for that is the month when G-d gave us the Torah, and when we began to be called His Children. Attached is a that prayer, which Artscroll has graciously made available for free. Shalom, ------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 7:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/35761f05/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: parent's prayer.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 104645 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/35761f05/attachment.pdf From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jun 8 12:35:21 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:35:21 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Firstfruits, confession, Words In-Reply-To: <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> References: <484AF062.3070704@westnet.com.au> <7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> Message-ID: <200806081736.m58Ha4Mg006273@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/4344e913/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 17:45:03 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:45:03 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Firstfruits, confession, Words In-Reply-To: <484AF062.3070704@westnet.com.au><7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> <200806081736.m58Ha4Mg006273@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> References: <484AF062.3070704@westnet.com.au><7E7A9389F3DA4090B8E8AA076E368EA7@bettygivin> <200806081736.m58Ha4Mg006273@mail206c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Steve, Have been praying the Confession Prayer with great fervor. Feel such a stirring every time I begin to speak its words. It is incredibly powerful, especially when spoken aloud. Joe's comments about our having no more excuses.........we stand GUILTY! - goes right to the heart of the matter. We, and our fathers, ARE guilty, and I feel such a release and cleansing as I utter those Scriptures that comprise our Confession. And yes, may we eat HaSHem's Word as Ezekiel did. May it be our sustenance, and the fullness of our lives. And may G-d lead us into contact with the others that are His Firstfruits scattered across the Earth, that we may strengthen and encourage one another. One can put a thousand to flight, and two can put ten thousand to flight. As we gather together, our strength grows exponentially. Thank you for all the work you continually do on behalf of the Tribes, Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 1:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Firstfruits, confession, Words Joe, Betty, Pat, and ALL, Yes, the Word is in our mouths. HaShem put it there, so we have no excuses. All the essentials of right belief and conduct with God and man are plain to understand. He tells us: "I am the LORD thy God which brought you out of the land of Egypt, open thy mouth and I will fill it." (Psalm 81:10). This does not just refer to physical sustenance. I have always understood it, as the Word of God, by which we live: "... man does not live by bread only, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD that man doth live." Deut. 8:3. Ezekiel, who was appointed as the watchman to us in the latter days, was also told to eat the Words, and to speak to us with those Words: "...eat this roll and go speak unto the House of Israel." (Ez. 3:2.). See also Ez. 3:17. He is doing that to us today. (Ez. 14:1-7). We need to eat those Divine words, or we will continue to eat our own words, (Psalm 81:12). The Feast of Firstfruits is hours away. We have counted seven Sabbaths with great anticipation of God's manifest intervention in the world. In a way that is hidden from most of the world, He already has intervened by resurrecting us. We are a kind of firstfruits, (from the ground of the Valley of Dry Bones)... and I wonder if we* are pictured by the two loaves that were presented at the Temple on the Feast of Firstfruits in our days, "the last days." I wonder if one of the loaves represent the firstfruits from Yehudah and the other from Ephraim. In any case, we should be most thankful this Feast of Firstfruits for the mercies of God for our resurrection from our graves in the Valley of Dry Bones. Confessing our sins and the sins of our fathers is paramount. We, the remnant who have been mercifully awakened by our G-d, need to call on the Name of the LORD to be delivered. Let us do that this Feast of the Firstfruits, 5768 / 2008. May our God hear our prayers. May we all be fully revived by the God of the fathers of Israel, the Creator God, besides whom there is none else. * Am not saying that only we on this list are the only remnant and possible firstfruits. Obviously there are others we have no knowledge of. Steve "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." PS. Am working on more annotation to the Confession prayer, and typos, grammar, other mistakes, etc. Will add some more sentences. May not get it done today. I think I will keep on working on other expansions later. Your suggestions are welcome. Please use the version you have for now. Please add your own words. At 02:04 PM 6/7/2008, you wrote: Yes! Yes, Joe!!! Toda rabba to both you and Steve. Pat and I and also Kim and I have been talking about some of these very things that you mentioned today, even in connection to the PR that Pat and I both received regarding Psalm 16:8 and how we must keep HaShem ever before us and we will not be moved!!! To use your words and quote from Deut 30. .we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. Today Rabba and Shabbat Shalom, brother, Elisheva/Betty ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer for beforeShavuot] Todah Rabbah Steve, You have succinctly placed the sacrifice of our lips into words. This outcry from all our hearts has disarmed all the excuses that we have engineered over the centuries to placate our consciences. We have been cunning in formulating excuse after excuse , from our ignorance to the blaming of the church, from the understanding of Paul to the misunderstanding of Paul . In spite of all of this we stand GUILTY. We have no more excuses.You have revealed Your eternal word of Truth at Har Sinai for all generations. Your Torah is not in Heaven that we should ask " Who shall ascend to gather it and bring it down?" nor is it across the ocean that we should request " Who shall cross the waters to fetch it for us?" "But the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it " Deut 30 v 11-14. We stand naked,exposed, and ashamed of our guilt . You , O HaShem are our only consololation. We trust only in your mercy and that it endureth forever. ?? ??????? ?????????? ??????, ????-????????? ????????; ????? (????????) ???????? ??????????, ???? ??????? ?????? ?????-??????? ???-??????. {?} 13 Thou hope of Israel, the LORD! All that forsake Thee shall be ashamed; they that depart from Thee shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. {P} ?? ????????? ?????? ?????????, ???????????? ?????????????: ???? ??????????, ??????. 14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved; for Thou art my praise. ?? ??????-??????, ???????? ?????: ?????? ?????-??????, ?????? ???. 15 Behold, they say unto me: 'Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now.' ?? ??????? ???-???????? ??????? ?????????, ?????? ??????? ??? ?????????????--?????? ?????????; ?????? ????????, ????? ???????? ?????. 16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a shepherd after Thee; neither have I desired the woeful day; Thou knowest it; that which came out of my lips was manifest before Thee. ?? ???-????????-???, ??????????; ???????-??????, ??????? ?????. 17 Be not a ruin unto me; thou art my refuge in the day of evil. Jer 17 v13-17. Thank you dear brother for the sharp focus as we prepare to commemorate the day of Mattan Torah at Shavuot. May the flow from His fountain of living waters cleanse us of all the residue from the dregs of the Golden calf.. Chag Shavuot Sameach. JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/fe539b8f/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Jun 8 18:24:16 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:24:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Teaching Children (was Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'roll) In-Reply-To: References: <007301c8b55e$e5988370$6600a8c0@davesbook> Message-ID: <0f6901c8c9be$c787e3c0$5697ab40$@com> Shalom Amber, My kids are grown, but still learning, and if I had to do it again with what I know now, I would start out with the Tanak and the Sermon on the Mount. Everything that Yeshua taught can be summed up in those three verses. Once this is a solid force in them, they will be able to discern Truth from Error in the rest of the NT. Blessing to You and Your Family, Patty Hey Pat! Thanks for your sweet comments! Pray for us and our children. We have taught them that jc and Yeshua are not the same person and have been chastised somewhat for it. We teach them there was a Yeshua who we are suppose to imitate but that he is not G-d. But then on other occasions, I wonder should we teach Yeshua at all?? Do I sound nuts?? There are too many pagan attachments that get in the way! Help! Searching for ourselves and our children, Amber On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris, Amber, Lindsey and Bryson, You are so very precious to us all. Your family shines as an example of seeking HaSHem with your whole heart. And it IS confusing to all of us. I also have a deep and abiding love for Rabbi Yeshua, who taught us to love and follow our Father. This much I know: he is not G-d, but we have come to G-d through following his example, and we have approached G-d in his name. He was the only Rabbi we knew. May we always cherish and honor his memory. And may HaSHem, through his loving-kindness, grace and mercy, teach us His Truth and His Way, that we may follow Him all the days of our lives. Thank you so much for your posts. We are learning together through each other. Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Pat: I had to tell you something Lindsey and Bryson saw the other day. We had a Ten Commandments sign on the back of the van. The kids said "Dad! The J word is on our sign!" We had no clue. They saw it before we did. It was a verse under the commandments we had never noticed. Of course we took it down. But it's funny how they see things sometimes. We pray we do not confuse them...........we are confused enough ourselves on some issues! Chris and Amber On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:07 PM, Dave Cole wrote: Ok....im gona try a reply here, I can relate to what you are saying Pat. If we are taught from our early life (and I was) that 'J' is in EVERYTHING then it is hard to get that idea out of that mindset. Some of ya'll that know me could possibly believe that I have some strange children! Maddie my youngest daughter (15) is home schooled. Once a week she attends a 'Christian co-op along with some of her friends. Fortunately for the last few years Maddie has been studying "this Jewish thing" (her words), and has NOT drank the co-op cool-aid. I got a tickle the other day upon asking her "how's the co-op going". Her response was, "Well dad....when they get into some of this religious talk and I don't want to cause a confrontation", (and believe me she could), "then I just say 'Jesus' and they move on to the next person"....(based on the doctrine that "jesus is the answer"....well what's the question?). I am truly blessed to have not taught Maddie some of the lies that I learned from my parents, and I hope I can break that cycle from my families bloodline once and for all. (can I say that?). I do believe that my Parents raised me to follow God, (with I'm sure much prayer), and that is one of the reasons that I am involved with SWOWS (synagogue with out walls), I do acknowledge 'the Path' that I have taken during my life as "guided", and for that I MUST/SHOULD recognize the Man that walked this earth several thousand years ago, (the seeker), as an influence in my life........And for that I stand in awe! Just trying to fit it all together.... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hanoch, I can understand your wondering about the "need" to fit J. into seemingly everything in a Christian's life. Although it's difficult to see this phenomenon when you are deeply involved in Christianity, it is far more noticeable to those who are not in the midst of the teachings. Children, who are in Christian schools appear to be indoctrinated early to "see" J. reflected in just about everything. An example of this is a conversation I recently had with my 7 year-old grandson. He brought a candy cane home from school that his teacher had given him. Showing it to me, he said, "Do you know what these red stripes are?" I told him I didn't, and he said "THAT IS THE BLOOD OF JESUS!!!" I asked him why he thought that, and he said that his teacher told him it was. I then asked if he wanted to eat it, and he answered, "I'M NOT GOING TO EAT IT!!!!" Poor little kid really thought there was blood in that candy. I think that if we are honest, we can remember relating almost everything to J. when we were in Christianity. Of course, coming from a Southern Baptist/Charismatic background, I may have seen more of that sort of teaching than others would have in their respective denominations. I do believe however, that this makes it more understandable why Christians would expect to see him in most Scriptures. Love, Pat From: Jessica Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 12:37 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hi Hanoch, In answer to (or should I say in 'attempted answer to') your question "What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?'" I will ask another question - "Did the earlier Prophets succeed in their missions to the 'Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel?" In other words did the two Houses come back together as One House united in the pure Torah of HaShem? Hanoch - SOMETHING HAPPENED during and following the life and death of Yeshua! What was it? I believe his mission WAS accomplished - even though dreadfully compromised - in that the Torah of HaShem has been taught in every nation, in every language and in every tongue on the face of the planet. AND NOW we are seeing the return of the 'Lost Sheep'. I believe he definitely DID HAVE A ROLE in the big playpen, but his life was cut short before he could see his purpose even begin to be accomplished. He had the trust in HaShem that it would transpire though, and that is why he knew he had to let the drama play out even at the cost of his own life. Hanoch, I don't think there is a "NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things." because he was already fitted in and was a key player. I think the problem for us is trying to differentiate the 'actual' from the fictional and the wishful/hopeful. He was a real person who left an incredible legacy that cannot be denied. "Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda!" Does that help? Kindest regards, Jessica PS: I'm not very smart either Hanoch, but neither do I think I am toooo dumb. Simple maybe, in the way I see things - but then in the end it is a 'little child who will lead them' isn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: [Dialogue] re: Jessica's note & Yeshua's 'role' Hey Jessica, I've got a question for you, and actually the whole group. I've been struggling with this for a very long time, and I hope that someone can shed some light on it for me. If Yeshua isn't a necessary intermediary (which being Jewish I have always believed, personally), then why would he have to be "beside" G-d and man?? What is it that necessitates his role? In other words, why MUST he be 'there?' Who played that role prior to Yeshua, with everyone else in our history? It almost seems at times (and I DO NOT MEAN THIS OFFENSIVELY), that there is a NEED on the part of people to 'fit Yeshua in' - somewhere in the whole scheme of things. If he's not G-d, then he must be the son of G-d, or, THE Messiah, if he's not that, then MBY, he's a "fulfillment of Torah" (which infers, of course, that the other great Jewish sages of history were not, BTW...), he 'died for our sins' he was G-d's sacrifice for our sins, his blood was necessary for us, etc....Why can't he simply be viewed as a teacher of Torah? I think you get the point...but since I come from a totally different religious background then most of you, I am really, really struggling to see where Yeshua (has to) fit in. I'm not too smart, but I'm not that dumb either (I hope), and I'm just not "getting it." Please help me see it from YOUR perspective, I would really appreciate it. Toda! Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah _____ Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/78e7b735/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 20:45:55 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:45:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THANK YOU, ROSS! Message-ID: Just a note to say "thank you," Ross for your teachings on Sunday evenings - Sunday Shul! Love, Avigail/Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080608/178ec49a/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jun 9 09:26:38 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:26:38 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] My last post for a while Message-ID: Dear friends: This will be my last post for a while, since I am lead to go into prayer and study regarding the dig on Zion hill. I can say very little on why it is so important for each to go into heavy prayer to HaShem in relation to this dig. What I can say are thoughts turning over and over in my mind, that we are in the times when all those things that G-D declared to his servants the prophets must be fulfilled. Are we the generation that those in the Yeshua movement thought they were? History speaks loudly there has been a delay of the kingdom of G-D restored to the children of Israel, all twelve. A ruin a ruin shall I make of it, two ruins of Jerusalem and NO MORE. The historical events of ruin are finished, and now deliverance may be only a short time away. All things are moving toward a climax when Yahovah will make a short work and bring his promises about that cannot and will not fail. Obama, Iran, Syria, have no idea of who they are fighting against. The children of Israel marched around Jericho, but it was HaShem that brought the walls down. The holocaust is history never to be repeated. It is coming down my friends and those nations that brutalized the Jewish people the old and the young, the suffering servants, will be vindicated, because vengeance is nine says HaShem. Worry not my pal Hanoch the blood of all those who suffered at the hands of the nations to which they were exiled, cry's out from the ground. This generation shall not pass until they are vindicated. Its in the book my friends, just as G-D gave it to the prophets. We can read the headlines of the times to come, and the times that are now. Its all there for the people of the book. Its coming down - get into the book and read all about it. You all take care now Clyde **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/ae003da7/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Jun 9 09:34:44 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:34:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] New Venture - The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fb001c8ca3d$f7b2b8c0$e7182a40$@com> New Venture - The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge JERUSALEM, Israel, June 3 /PRNewswire/ -- The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a multinational initiative that will provide the public, for the first time, with an opportunity to participate in the investigative search for the lost tribes of Israel, among remote ethnic groups around the world who believe that they are descendants of the ten lost tribes. These tribes, most of whom live in remote and exotic locations, maintain - surprisingly - to this day, customs based upon ancient traditions that provide many historical and ethnographic researchers reason to believe that their origins are from the ten lost tribes. For participants of The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge expeditions, there awaits an exciting and fascinating geographical experience; an intellectual, experiential, ethnographic, human and religious adventure. Who are The Ten Lost Tribes? The tribes: Dan, Gad, Menashe, Ephraim, Zevulun, Asher, Issachar, Reuven, Shimon and Naftali, who made up the Kingdom of Israel that was conquered in the year 720 BC by Assyria, and its residents exiled. Traces of the tribes were lost. Descendants of the tribe of Dan were found in Ethiopia, brought to Israel in 1973, and were recognized by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. This story repeats itself today with a tribe that lives in northeast India (to where we shall be traveling), whom the current Chief Rabbi of Israel, Shlomo Amar, has recognized as descendants of the tribe of Menashe. The kingdom of Judah was also exiled some 130 years later by Babylon, but descendants of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi returned to the Promised Land and rebuilt the second Temple. The Mystery The disappearance of the Ten Tribes has captivated and enthralled the imagination of adventurers, discoverers, writers, researchers, pilgrims, believers of many faiths and nationalities for 2,700 years. This mystery is the subject of fierce debate and covers history, ethnography, archeology, and - of course - faith, politics, as well as ethnic and religious struggles. The Expedition gets under way in November 2008 To north east India, to the Chinlung tribe who believe that they are descended from the tribes of Menashe and Ephraim (the sons of Joseph); and to the Afreedi Pathans, whom researchers claim are descended from the tribe of Ephraim. The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a unique expedition and requires building groups of adventuresome and inquisitive participants. In order to achieve this end, registrants will undergo a selection process after completion of a detailed application questionnaire. - Each expedition is limited to 30 participants. - Cost: $4,200 per person (excluding international flights) - Future Destinations: Japan, China, the Silk Road, Burma, The Caucuses, Ethiopia, Mexico, and more... http://www.10LostTribesChallenge.com The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a joint venture of two Israeli tour companies: Shai Bar Ilan Ltd. - Religious Geographical Tours, Eretz Ahavati Ltd. - Geographic Nature Adventures For PR information and photos: SIMA ELLA: +972-54-664-2120 Telefax: +972-3-642-0120 PRsima.ella at gmail.com Distributed by PR Newswire on behalf of Shai Bar Ilan Ltd. and Eretz Ahavati Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/15e7b413/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 15:35:28 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:35:28 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] In-Reply-To: <484B41ED.2070206@westnet.com.au> References: <484B41ED.2070206@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806091335k4793787eh6d28731fa502734a@mail.gmail.com> Here's the link for the Rational-Belief article http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Rational_Belief.asp Here's the link for the page at Aish.com. http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/I recommend subscribing to their newletter. Kim On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > Todah Kim and Elisheva. > > Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? > > Molto grazie. > JOE. > > Marvin, > > > > This is the actual article. I think if you google Aish.com, you will see > the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you > tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to > the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And > according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of > both?He not only counts the stars but calls them by name?WOW! > > > > > > > > [image: Galactic Torah] > > > > > > by Alexander Seinfeld > > > > *Talmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust."* > > > > > > Email this > > Print this > > Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every > field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an > encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the > final product? > > This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise > experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. > In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes > literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. > > To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and > distribution of stars in the universe. > > *The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. * > > In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, > the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, > from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, > and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 > years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. > > Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: > the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars > visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. > > So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate > Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi > Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This > number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus > of 1022 than common sense would allow. > > Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large > estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely > lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate > anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way > to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could > identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) > > *Multiple Patterns* > > However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains > that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor > random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of > stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups > (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups > (what we call superclusters). > > To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters > of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists > until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic > clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or > so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in > a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the > number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! > > *The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment.* > > Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 > clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger > pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total > of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that > the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal > mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world > and the consensus are pure astonishment. > > Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? > That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic > significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the > significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or > religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly > what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received > tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. > > Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is > unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without > telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral > tradition. > > You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about > the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The > Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group > of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a > "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." > > This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as > significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures > available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. > > Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 > > > ______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *mhyde > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Shavout > > > > Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another > link. > > Thanks? > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Shavout > > > > Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout > Articles > > Kim > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *kim alvarado* > Date: 2008/6/7 > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer > forbeforeShavuot] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on > rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His > Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. > > Kim > > _______________________________________________ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 > 11:17 AM > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/95ef3301/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Mon Jun 9 15:42:29 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:42:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Fw: The Parent's Prayer In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c8c820$3a0c4350$6101a8c0@authoriz9387e3> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806091342i282f2141ydc624e2aaae02c21@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for this, Amber. Kim On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 11:41 AM, chris fordham wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: chris fordham > Date: Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:41 PM > Subject: Fwd: Fw: The Parent's Prayer > To: Chris and Amber > > > Patty, Pat, Betty, Kim, Marvin and All: > > Check out this prayer that was sent to me the day I received all the > encouragement from the dialogue! > > > B"H > > Tonight is *Erev Rosh Chodesh* for the month of Sivan. The classic work, > *Shelah HaKadosh*, contains a prayer that parents can recite for their > children at any time of the year - but especially on *Erev Rosh Chodesh* * > Sivan,* (tonight) for that is the month when G-d gave us the Torah, and > when we began to be called His Children. > > Attached is a that prayer, which Artscroll has graciously made available > for free. > > Shalom, > > > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 > 7:00 AM > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/2ac583ce/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 9 16:32:07 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:32:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Shavuot Message of Solidarity Message-ID: Dear friends, On another list, someone mentioned "baseless friendship", which I believe is based on "baseless love." I will ask if I can have permission to copy and paste what he wrote because in my opinion, it is so important. Our list seems to ebb and flow like the tide.and the phases of the moon, from big and full and bright to just a sliver as it wanes and disappears into the dark sky, only to be "reborn" again to a brand new sliver of a new moon. At times, our list is so busy that it seems we just can't keep up the with the speed of back and forth dialogue of messages flying back and forth. Sometimes, it seems like our posts are like rockets or "sparks," being launched in all directions as we have so many things we want to discuss. In a way, this reminds me of the characteristics of the 'lost tribes," going every which way! Then at other times it is very quiet.like today and maybe it is because it is Shavuot and people are observing the day, which is good. I have stopped trying to read things into these patterns or trying to figure them out.it is what it is because it is made up of people, and we are what we are, people from all walks of life. On another list, John said we are all on different branches in our walks, and it is too easy to lose each other if we're not careful. Very wise words, John. Yes, though different branches, I believe we are all from the same root, and that is the root of our love of The One G-d of Israel and His Torah, and our desire to discover and reconnect with those Ancient Paths and walk in them. And in my opinion, it is imperative that we not lose one another along the way. I don't know what is to come, but whatever it is, I firmly believe that we need to stand together and be united. So, wherever we are today, whether in shuls, synagogues, study sessions, walking about, or at home, may we firmly place in our minds a picture/vision of us all standing together.for some reason, and perhaps because it is Shavuot, but this vision sticks in my mind so very strongly. when all the people were standing at Sinai before the G-d who made heaven and earth and amidst all the thunderings and lightenings, G-d spoke the Ten Words. The rabbis teach that "we" (the ones joined to Israel and the Jewish people themselves) were all there.Our rabbi mentioned it again last night in our Torah service before the reading of the Ten Commandments.he said we were all there, "in some way, shape or form." Now don't ask me what that means because I don't know.but in my heart I believe it.the whole idea of time is so mysterious to me.and we know that "G-d's Thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His Ways higher than our ways". Perhaps just the connection that we feel to Sinai brings us there. Some among us have said that they were feeling an apprehension of sorts. I have too and really cannot explain it. Sometimes in the midst of so much good, these feelings come forth. I have tried to just to give it to HaShem and to continue being positive and encouraging as HaShem gives me strength. But whatever it is about, valid or not, let's stand together as in the parsha, Nitzavim.let us 'stand strong!' Chag Sameach to all, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/197b4754/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 9 16:41:28 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:41:28 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806091335k4793787eh6d28731fa502734a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Kim! I just read this article and in my opinion, it is excellent, and fits in so well with Shavuot and the explanation behind the words of the people gathered at Sinai when they said."We will hear and then we will do." I have already subscribed and am getting their newsletter and agree that it is very worthwhile. Chag Sameach all! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] Here's the link for the Rational-Belief article http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Rational_Belief.asp Here's the link for the page at Aish.com. http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/ I recommend subscribing to their newletter. Kim On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Todah Kim and Elisheva. Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? Molto grazie. JOE. Marvin, This is the actual article. I think if you google Aish.com, you will see the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of both.He not only counts the stars but calls them by name.WOW! Galactic Torah by Alexander Seinfeld Talmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust." Email this Print this Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the final product? This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and distribution of stars in the universe. The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus of 1022 than common sense would allow. Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) Multiple Patterns However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups (what we call superclusters). To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment. Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world and the consensus are pure astonishment. Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral tradition. You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 ______________________________________________ _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/d6a50d38/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 9 18:27:11 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:27:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] New Venture - The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge In-Reply-To: <0fb001c8ca3d$f7b2b8c0$e7182a40$@com> Message-ID: <54B7A025E6384CF4B3ECC5250F27CC6A@bettygivin> Hi Patty, this is indeed interesting.now we just need to guide them in a more western direction! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] New Venture - The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge New Venture - The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge JERUSALEM, Israel, June 3 /PRNewswire/ -- The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a multinational initiative that will provide the public, for the first time, with an opportunity to participate in the investigative search for the lost tribes of Israel, among remote ethnic groups around the world who believe that they are descendants of the ten lost tribes. These tribes, most of whom live in remote and exotic locations, maintain - surprisingly - to this day, customs based upon ancient traditions that provide many historical and ethnographic researchers reason to believe that their origins are from the ten lost tribes. For participants of The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge expeditions, there awaits an exciting and fascinating geographical experience; an intellectual, experiential, ethnographic, human and religious adventure. Who are The Ten Lost Tribes? The tribes: Dan, Gad, Menashe, Ephraim, Zevulun, Asher, Issachar, Reuven, Shimon and Naftali, who made up the Kingdom of Israel that was conquered in the year 720 BC by Assyria, and its residents exiled. Traces of the tribes were lost. Descendants of the tribe of Dan were found in Ethiopia, brought to Israel in 1973, and were recognized by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. This story repeats itself today with a tribe that lives in northeast India (to where we shall be traveling), whom the current Chief Rabbi of Israel, Shlomo Amar, has recognized as descendants of the tribe of Menashe. The kingdom of Judah was also exiled some 130 years later by Babylon, but descendants of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi returned to the Promised Land and rebuilt the second Temple. The Mystery The disappearance of the Ten Tribes has captivated and enthralled the imagination of adventurers, discoverers, writers, researchers, pilgrims, believers of many faiths and nationalities for 2,700 years. This mystery is the subject of fierce debate and covers history, ethnography, archeology, and - of course - faith, politics, as well as ethnic and religious struggles. The Expedition gets under way in November 2008 To north east India, to the Chinlung tribe who believe that they are descended from the tribes of Menashe and Ephraim (the sons of Joseph); and to the Afreedi Pathans, whom researchers claim are descended from the tribe of Ephraim. The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a unique expedition and requires building groups of adventuresome and inquisitive participants. In order to achieve this end, registrants will undergo a selection process after completion of a detailed application questionnaire. - Each expedition is limited to 30 participants. - Cost: $4,200 per person (excluding international flights) - Future Destinations: Japan, China, the Silk Road, Burma, The Caucuses, Ethiopia, Mexico, and more... http://www.10LostTribesChallenge.com The Ten Lost Tribes Challenge is a joint venture of two Israeli tour companies: Shai Bar Ilan Ltd. - Religious Geographical Tours, Eretz Ahavati Ltd. - Geographic Nature Adventures For PR information and photos: SIMA ELLA: +972-54-664-2120 Telefax: +972-3-642-0120 PRsima.ella at gmail.com Distributed by PR Newswire on behalf of Shai Bar Ilan Ltd. and Eretz Ahavati Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/87963c89/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 9 18:31:01 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:31:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] My last post for a while In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <12A7641BCE4F42C8AE14DE0408AC970A@bettygivin> Thank you, Clyde for letting us know. I am sure that James, especially, will be glad to know that you are going into prayer regarding the dig at Mount Zion Hill. I will be praying as well, as I am sure will others. Hope your Shavuot has been filled with blessings. You take care too, May HaShem pour out His love and blessings upon you! Betty/Elisheva _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 9:27 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] My last post for a while Dear friends: This will be my last post for a while, since I am lead to go into prayer and study regarding the dig on Zion hill. I can say very little on why it is so important for each to go into heavy prayer to HaShem in relation to this dig. What I can say are thoughts turning over and over in my mind, that we are in the times when all those things that G-D declared to his servants the prophets must be fulfilled. Are we the generation that those in the Yeshua movement thought they were? History speaks loudly there has been a delay of the kingdom of G-D restored to the children of Israel, all twelve. A ruin a ruin shall I make of it, two ruins of Jerusalem and NO MORE. The historical events of ruin are finished, and now deliverance may be only a short time away. All things are moving toward a climax when Yahovah will make a short work and bring his promises about that cannot and will not fail. Obama, Iran, Syria, have no idea of who they are fighting against. The children of Israel marched around Jericho, but it was HaShem that brought the walls down. The holocaust is history never to be repeated. It is coming down my friends and those nations that brutalized the Jewish people the old and the young, the suffering servants, will be vindicated, because vengeance is nine says HaShem. Worry not my pal Hanoch the blood of all those who suffered at the hands of the nations to which they were exiled, cry's out from the ground. This generation shall not pass until they are vindicated. Its in the book my friends, just as G-D gave it to the prophets. We can read the headlines of the times to come, and the times that are now. Its all there for the people of the book. Its coming down - get into the book and read all about it. You all take care now Clyde _____ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080609/6388d9d3/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 10 00:34:30 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:34:30 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806091335k4793787eh6d28731fa502734a@mail.gmail.com> References: <484B41ED.2070206@westnet.com.au> <1c8dbb6e0806091335k4793787eh6d28731fa502734a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <061020080534.19726.484E1265000A63BC00004D0E22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Kim, I just read the Ratinal Belief article and I think it is most excellent. I think that it shines a clear light on what faith means and even though he is not mentioned in it, I think what it is making is what was credited to abraham as righteousness. Abraham just believed G-d, period. Then he went about understanding it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- Here's the link for the Rational-Belief article http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Rational_Belief.asp Here's the link for the page at Aish.com. http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/ I recommend subscribing to their newletter. Kim On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Todah Kim and Elisheva. Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? Molto grazie. JOE. Marvin, This is the actual article. I think if you google Aish.com, you will see the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of both?He not only counts the stars but calls them by name?WOW! by Alexander SeinfeldTalmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust." Email thisPrint this Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the final product? This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and distribution of stars in the universe. The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus of 1022 than common sense would allow. Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) Multiple Patterns However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups (what we call superclusters). To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment. Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world and the consensus are pure astonishment. Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral tradition. You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 ______________________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080610/e42212ce/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jun 10 02:13:32 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:13:32 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] In-Reply-To: <061020080534.19726.484E1265000A63BC00004D0E22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Yes, a most excellent article. Toda rabba, Kim! Interesting point you made there, John, when you said, Abraham just believed G-d, period. Then he went about understanding it. As Hanoch would say.Hmmm. So does that mean we don't have to understand it all??? What a relief! And with that say, I am off to sleep.love you guys! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] Hey Kim, I just read the Ratinal Belief article and I think it is most excellent. I think that it shines a clear light on what faith means and even though he is not mentioned in it, I think what it is making is what was credited to abraham as righteousness. Abraham just believed G-d, period. Then he went about understanding it. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- Here's the link for the Rational-Belief article http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Rational_Belief.asp Here's the link for the page at Aish.com. http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/ I recommend subscribing to their newletter. Kim On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Todah Kim and Elisheva. Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? Molto grazie. JOE. Marvin, This is the actual article. I think if you google Aish.com, you will see the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of bothHe not only counts the stars but calls them by nameWOW! Galactic Torah by Alexander Seinfeld Talmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust." Email this Print this Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the final product? This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and distribution of stars in the universe. The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus of 1022 than common sense would allow. Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) Multiple Patterns However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups (what we call superclusters). To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment. Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world and the consensus are pure astonishment. Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral tradition. You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 ______________________________________________ _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout Kim, the link takes you to g-mail, not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link: Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com. The one on rational thinking is wonderful. We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah. The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away. Kim _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM _______________ ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080610/0f8ce43e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Jun 10 02:21:00 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:21:00 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] In-Reply-To: References: <061020080534.19726.484E1265000A63BC00004D0E22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <1177176681-1213082957-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-188449979-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I don't know if I would put it that way. I think it's more like we get to spend the rest of our lives under instruction without the pressure of having to pass the test. Just choosing to believe G-d is the only right answer required. Me too! Luv ya back. Eliron Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Betty Givin" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:13:32 To: Subject: RE: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] Yes, a most excellent article. Toda rabba, Kim! ?Interesting point you made there, John, when you said, Abraham just believed G-d, period.? Then he went about understanding it. ? As Hanoch would say?Hmmm? ? So does that mean we don?t have to understand it all???? What a relief!? ? And with that say, I am off to sleep?love you guys! ? Elisheva/Betty ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Shavout] ? Hey Kim, ? I just read the Ratinal Belief article and I think it is most excellent.? I think that it shines a clear light on what faith means and even though he is not mentioned in it, I think what it is?making??is what was credited to abraham as righteousness.? Abraham just believed G-d, period.? Then he went about understanding it. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "kim alvarado" : -------------- Here's the link for the Rational-Belief article http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/shavuottorahdefault/Rational_Belief.asp Here's the link for the page at Aish.com. http://www.aish.com/shavuottorah/ I recommend subscribing to their newletter. Kim On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: Todah Kim and Elisheva. Very inspiring. Who can fathom the wonder of HaShem . Micah Mocha Adonai ? Molto grazie. JOE. Marvin, ? This is the actual article.? I think if you google Aish.com, you will see the name of this article, but here it is. It is pretty amazing and when you tie the "number of stars" to the number of HaShem's people being compared to the stars as in His promise to Abraham, it is even more amazing! And according to the beautiful promise in Psalms 147:3-4, HaShem is mindful of bothHe not only counts the stars but calls them by nameWOW! ? ? ? ? ? by Alexander Seinfeld ? Talmudic wisdom is no "puff of start dust." ? ? Email this Print this Imagine a project at Harvard to convene the greatest scholars in every field over a period of several hundred years in order to create an encyclopedia of their collective knowledge. Who wouldn't want to see the final product? This is the Talmud: a unique collection of wisdom that would surprise experts in any discipline, including law, ethics, psychology and economics. In the realm of cosmology, too, the Talmud makes assertions -- sometimes literal, sometimes metaphoric, and sometimes both. To give one example, consider the Talmudic estimate of the number and distribution of stars in the universe. <%20> The vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is transmitted from Moses. <%20> <%20> In order to appreciate this passage, bear in mind two things. First, the vast bulk of Talmudic wisdom is claimed to be a transmitted tradition, from Moses to Joshua, to the prophets, to the Elders, to the Great Assembly, and then to a chain of scholars until the completion of the Talmud 1,500 years ago. Hence it is called the Oral Law. Second, we need to appreciate the limitations of science 1,500 years ago: the telescope was invented in the 16th century, and the number of stars visible to the naked eye is approximately 9,000. So what did these ancient rabbis say about the number of stars? In Tractate Brachot, page 32b, the Talmud records a tradition, in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish, that there are roughly 1018 stars in the universe. This number is remarkably big and much closer to the current scientific consensus of 1022 than common sense would allow. Now, although it is interesting for an ancient people to have such a large estimate, this single coincidence could perhaps be explained as an extremely lucky guess. Never mind that no other ancient people had an estimate anywhere near this order of magnitude, nor did they have a conventional way to write such a number. (I have queried dozens of astronomers and none could identify a single other ancient culture with remotely similar numbers.) Multiple Patterns However, the Talmud relates more than a raw number. The passage explains that the distribution of stars throughout the cosmos is neither even nor random. Rather, it states that they are clustered in groups of billions of stars (what we call galaxies), which themselves are clustered into groups (what astronomers call galactic clusters), which in turn are in mega-groups (what we call superclusters). To describe the stars as clustered together, both locally and in clusters of clusters, was far beyond the imagination and the telescopes of scientists until Edwin Hubble's famous photographs of Andromeda in the 1920s. Galactic clusters and superclusters have been described only in the past decade or so. Moreover, the Talmud states categorically that the number of galaxies in a cluster is about 30. And wouldn't you know it, astronomers today set the number of galaxies in our own local cluster at 30! <%20> The consensus of astronomers is pure astonishment. <%20> <%20> Further, the Talmud adds that the superclusters consist of about 30 clusters each, and that superclusters are themselves grouped into a bigger pattern of about 30 (megasuperclusters?) of which the universe has a total of about 360. Thus, the Talmud appears consistent with one major theory that the overall structure of the universe is shaped by the rules of fractal mathematics. I've shown this data to numerous astronomers around the world and the consensus are pure astonishment. Could it be that Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish made an extremely lucky guess? That might be plausible if he had used a number that had symbolic significance in Judaism, such as seven, 10, 18 or 40. What is the significance of the number 30? To my knowledge, there is no spiritual or religious reason for choosing that number. It therefore seems to be exactly what it claims to be: a conscientious oral transmission of a received tradition, rather than simply one person's guesstimate. Moreover, Rabbi Shimon had a reputation for impeccable honesty; it is unthinkable that he would have invented these numbers or guessed without telling us so. The clear intent of the passage is to convey an oral tradition. You are now in on the secret of Shavuot: There is something special about the Torah (and rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated!). The Torah is much, much more than a mere "cultural expression" of one tiny group of ancient people, so numerically small that we reminded Mark Twain of a "nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way." This passage about the stars is a mere five Talmudic lines, itself about as significant as a puff of star dust. But it also hints to the treasures available to those who seek them. Shavuot is a great time to begin. Published: Sunday, June 01, 2008 ______________________________________________ ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of mhyde Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shavout ? Kim, the link takes you to g-mail,? not a g-mail user, can you send another link. Thanks ? ---------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shavout ? Sorry, forgot to change the subject line and include the link:? Shavout Articles Kim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: kim alvarado Date: 2008/6/7 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Urgent: Call for Confessing prayer forbeforeShavuot] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Just finished reading some very good articles on Aish.com.? The one on rational thinking is wonderful.? We must focus on Hashem alone and His Torah.? The one on the Galatic Torah blew me away.? Kim _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM _______________ ________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Jun 10 06:19:44 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:19:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Seek His Face In-Reply-To: <1177176681-1213082957-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-188449979-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Shalom all, I couldn't sleep tonight, so I got up, opened up to Psalms and a several verses jumped out at me. "As for me, I will behold Thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with beholding Thy likeness" (Psalm 17:15.) "For the L-RD is righteousness, he loves righteousness; the upright shall behold His Face." ((Psalm 11;7) Then I remembered that John had mentioned seeking HaShem's face in an email, so I looked it up.he had made reference to a passage in Hosea that he said had 'struck' him. "I will go and return to My place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face."Hosea 5:15 This caught my attention because this is something that has been much on my mind as well, especially lately, during these days between Pesach and Shavuot as we have counted the omer. Seeking the face of our G-d is one of the major themes of Torah, for it is the path of t'shuvah, of return. I was then reminded and the P.R's that both Pat and I had received within two days of one another when we were each wrestling with issues of the heart and trying to understand what each of us should be doing. "I have set the LORD always before me: surely He is at my right hand, I shall not be moved." Psalms 16:8 In a recent post, Steve wrote. "Since Betty and Pat disclosed their PRs, I am disclosing this one to add to theirs for a composite message for all to consider: On 7-28-2000 I received the following PRs: "When thou saidst, 'Seek ye my face,' my heart said unto to Thee, 'Thy face, LORD will I seek.'" (Psalm 27:8) This verse seems to tell us that HaShem calls us, our Soul / higher self hears it, and then our Soul speaks to us, which we sense as a deep desire arising form our depths, our "hearts," to which we respond. This mechanism hearkens to the last verse in Malachi, where the hearts of the fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, call to us, and then we reciprocate by responding to that call to "return to the Ancient Path of life they tread, and to the Covenant they made." On 9-08-07 I received the following PR in the same vein "This is the generation of them that seek Him, that seek thy face, O God of Jacob." (Psalm 24:6) Friends, brothers and sisters, fellow Israelites, we need to "seek the face of our God," the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob earnestly, for directives of what to do. Am asking all to use this phrase earnestly in our prayers often, especially now for the festival of Shavuot." I personally have had Steve's prayer in my heart and mind regarding the desperate need of doing t'shuvah for passing down the "lies of the fathers," to help prepare the way for "Tikkun Olam" (the repair of the world") when those of Joseph will join with brother Judah and HaShem will light up the world with His countenance. It is my belief that it is our responsibility as those who have been shown the Torah path to continually "Seek His Face!" B'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080610/fa3cb07a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 10 20:59:24 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:59:24 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Israeli government plan for Gaza.... Message-ID: The government's plan for Gaza Caroline Glick - Jun 09, 2008 The Jerusalem Post The Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government is marching the country into another military confrontation with an Iranian proxy army. As was the case in the last confrontation with an Iranian proxy army two years ago, the country's leaders are fully committed to Israel's strategic defeat in the current one. Tuesday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak will meet ahead of Wednesday's security cabinet meeting to determine their preferred course of action in Gaza. As media reports and statements by the three's surrogates over the past several days make clear, Israel's political leaders oppose launching a military campaign aimed at defeating Hamas's Iranian directed, financed, trained and armed army and dislodging Hamas's jihadist regime from power. Indeed, as their actions and statements over the past several months make clear, what Israel's political leaders really aspire to is a cease-fire agreement with Iran's Palestinian proxy regime. Under the proposed cease-fire, Hamas will suspend or scale back its illegal missile war against Israeli civilians in the South. In return, Israel will effectively accept Hamas rule of Gaza. Israel will allow Hamas to continue to build up its military forces in Gaza and have open access to the Sinai. In light of Hamas's negotiations with Fatah towards the reestablishment of a Hamas-dominated Palestinian Authority unity government, such a cease-fire will also entail an end to the economic isolation of Gaza. Since they would be formally governed by Fatah - Israel's "peace partner," Gazans will be allowed to use Israeli ports and even build their own seaport and perhaps reopen their airport in Rafah. The debate in the West over whether or not to negotiate with Hamas will effectively end - with an international embrace of Hamas as Fatah's partner. For the Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government, a cease-fire is attractive politically. By providing a temporary respite from the jihadist missile attacks against southern Israel, the cease-fire will suspend the local media's coverage of the grave and gathering threat to Israel's security in the South. And the lull in media coverage of the Iranian threat in Gaza will provide breathing room for the scandal-ridden and deeply unpopular Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government as it seeks desperately to avoid new general elections. Gifted politicians that they are, Olmert, Livni and Barak know that if they decide Tuesday to reject the IDF's pleas to conduct a military campaign to dislodge Hamas again and opt instead to sign the Egyptian-mediated cease-fire deal with Iran's Palestinian army, they will be properly accused of political opportunism and cowardice by the media and their political opponents. So to sign on to a deal with Hamas, they need military cover. As The Jerusalem Post reported last week, that smokescreen will likely be what Olmert, Livni, Barak and their surrogates refer to as a "medium-sized military option" against Hamas. The aim of their preferred military approach is not to defeat Hamas. They just want to "send it a message." In plain English, what their preferred military option involves is committing IDF forces to battle in numbers insufficient to defeat Hamas. IDF forces will be killed in battle and in the end, Hamas will still control Gaza. But in their public speeches, Olmert, Livni and Barak will claim victory arguing that now that they have "sent Hamas a message" they can sign the cease-fire agreement. For their part, the local media will justify the government's decisions and agree to present them to the public as a strategic achievement. The media can be expected to do so for two reasons. First, they will not wish to upset the families of the soldiers who will die in the campaign by noting that their lives were sacrificed for nothing. And second, the leftist media is uninterested in general elections which will bring Likud to power and so they will work to block them by collaborating with the government in its attempts to pretend that the "medium-sized military operation" was a good idea. As for the political opposition, as was the case in the Second Lebanon War, they will be unwilling to criticize the government while Israeli forces are risking their lives in battle. Afterwards, they will fear being castigated by the government and its media flacks as "unpatriotic" or "warmongering" if they criticize the outcome of the "medium-sized military operation" that will leave Hamas and Iran strengthened and free to expand their control to Judea and Samaria. In short, Olmert, Livni and Barak are about to decide to sacrifice the lives of IDF soldiers in order to delude the public into believing that signing a cease-fire agreement that leaves Hamas in charge of Gaza and in a position to take over Judea and Samaria is a strategically sound policy. This drastic assertion could be easily attacked as delusional and even paranoid if we hadn't been here before. But we have. Two years ago, Israel was the victim of naked aggression when Hizbullah forces launched an unprovoked attack on an IDF patrol, killed three soldiers and abducted Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser while pummeling northern Israel with Katyusha rockets and short-range missiles. Although Olmert at the time declared war against Hizbullah, he, Livni and then defense minister Amir Peretz refused to order the IDF to defeat Hizbullah. They refused for weeks to launch a ground campaign. They refused for weeks to call up reserve units. Interested in "sending a signal" to Hizbullah rather than defeating its forces, for four weeks they ordered the IDF to conduct operations with no operational logic in which IDF forces were killed in battles that had no strategic purpose. Then, after squandering some 30 days of fruitless fighting, reacting to the public outcry against his incompetence, Olmert belatedly ordered a ground assault of South Lebanon. He ordered IDF forces to move in helter-skelter and attempt to complete an operation that was planned to take more than 96 hours in 48 hours. Most egregiously, the entire operation was launched after the UN Security Council had passed resolution 1701 defining the terms of Israel's cease-fire with Iran's Lebanese proxy army. That is, even if the campaign had been successful, it would have had no impact on the outcome of the war which had already been determined - with Israeli support - in New York. And yet, to assuage the public demand for victory, the Olmert-Livni-Peretz-Yishai government launched the last minute "medium-sized" 48-hour attack in which 33 IDF forces were killed in a battle for nothing. Resolution 1701 left Hizbullah intact and provided the illegal army of jihad with unprecedented political legitimacy. Under the cover of 1701, Iran and Syria have rebuilt Hizbullah's forces, which in turn have reasserted their military control over South Lebanon. Just last week Barak warned that Hizbullah is setting up fortified positions along the border. He also said, "The Syrians are working in intimate cooperation with Hizbullah, and they are in large part responsible for the transfer of weapons and supplies to Hizbullah. The ultimate responsibility, as far as we're concerned, lies with Hizbullah on the one hand, and with the Iranians and the Syrians on the other." Barak's statements came two weeks after Hizbullah effectively overthrew the pro-Western Saniora government and through the good offices of the Qataris, forced the March 14 democracy movement to sign the Doha agreement, which transfers control of the country to Hizbullah. Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah was then quick to announce his army's subservience to Teheran. The Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government responded to Hizbullah's violent takeover of the Lebanese government by rewarding it. As Michael Young of Beirut's Daily Star wrote recently, Hizbullah is presenting its swap of dead IDF soldiers' body parts for Hizbullah spy Nissim Nasser as a first step towards a massive Israeli release of Hizbullah and Palestinian terrorists from its prisons in exchange for Regev and Goldwasser. Such a prisoner release will play directly into Hizbullah's hands. It will effectively justify Hizbullah's decision to go to war with Israel two years ago to the Lebanese public. Such justification is essential as Hizbullah moves forward towards gaining internal Lebanese acceptance of its role as ruler of Lebanon. Beyond its effective support of Hizbullah, the Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government is strengthening the Iranian-controlled axis by conducting negotiations toward the surrender of the Golan Heights with Syrian President and Iranian proxy Bashar Assad. Here too, Israel is signaling to Assad that his decision to cast his lot with Teheran was a wise one. The international consequences of Israel's behavior have already been unmistakable. This week both French President Nicholas Sarkozy and British Foreign Minister David Miliband visited Lebanon and accepted Hizbullah's demand for control over Mt. Dov on the Golan Heights. Israel seized the strategically vital area which controls the approaches to the Galilee in the 1967 Six Day War from Syria. Hizbullah claimed that it is continued Israeli control of the area that justified its war of aggression two years ago. This all brings us back to the situation in Gaza. In his post-Doha address, Nasrallah urged Hamas to follow his successful model of war against Israel both in order to hasten Israel's destruction and to facilitate the extension of the terror group's control to Judea and Samaria. And of course, that is precisely what Hamas has been doing for the past two years. The Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government's political opponents have claimed that with the ongoing corruption probes against the prime minister, the government lacks the political legitimacy to conduct a military campaign in Gaza. This is a false assertion. As Israel's elected leaders, the Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government has a duty to defend the country and the only way to do so is to launch a military campaign in Gaza. The problem is that the Olmert-Livni-Barak-Yishai government is incompetent to successfully carry out such an essential campaign. As in Lebanon two years ago, so in Gaza today, the type of campaign that this government will launch will only endanger Israel still further. 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one _here_ (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080610/a4a0ee29/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 10 23:30:37 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:30:37 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/29c758d4/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Jun 10 23:43:54 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:43:54 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Be-Ha'alotcha Message-ID: I wanted to send out some of my notes this week related to my personal study of the weekly parsha (annual cycle). It is sort of long, but I hope it helps. The reading, called Be-Ha'alotcha (translated, "When you put up"), has some key points and some of the most interesting - though seemingly unconnected stories. It begins with instructions for the "putting up" of the menorah, speaks of the "purification of the Levites", who according to the literal reading of the Hebrew (8:16) are "given, yes given" to YHWH. There is allowance made for a "make up" Passover for those that were on a journey or impure when the Pesach of the first month was kept. In Chapter 9, we read an interesting point that "there will be one statute for you (pl) and for the stranger and for the citizen of the land". I love this idea. There are many out there that place artificial distinctions between Israel and humanity. It is my opinion that all of the world will be instructed into the "Way of YHWH". Indeed this is the reason for Israel serving as a nation of Priests, being given a charge to be a light to the nations, etc. One only has to read Isaiah chapters 2 and 56 (for example) to see that this is the goal for humanity. Chapter 9:15-23 we read of the cloud and how it guided the travels of the Israelites. I had not noticed it in previous readings of this text, but the movement of the cloud and the reaction to this move by the people following, are closely associated with their obedience to the "word of YHWH" (mouth might be a better rendering). Chapter 10 deals with the reasons for the sounding of the trumpets and the order of travel for the tribes. Chapter 11 switches gears on us. Here we meet with much complaining by the people. They long to return to Egypt. I guess this had me thinking. Often, I meet people who have left their "spiritual Egypt", but for one reason or another they begin to crave the things that they had there. The provision of God begins to lose its flavor and they want to return. These complaints are "bad in the ears of YHWH" and His anger is flared - and subsequently we read that it was bad in Moses' eyes. The people still direct their complaints to the man Moses and not to God. In this week's lesson we see that despite Moses' humility - he is becoming a bit tired. The people lash out at Moses and he unloads on God. He feels that he is carrying the burden alone and asks God to kill him if things continue as they are. I think that it is interesting to note that God does not react...or should I say over-react to Moses when he makes this comment. In fact, he seemingly ignores his drama altogether and just resolves the issues at hand. Often, I think we take comments of others and over-react causing more problems rather than setting forth solutions. This can be a lesson to us all. God does not chide Moses for his exaggerated remark, He merely sets things straight. Read it and see how God "fixes" the problem! In verse 20 we find that God informs Moses what he should relate to the complainers. If they want what they had in Egypt, then that is what they shall get. Not just a taste of what they had, but enough that it will run out of their noses! It should be noted that this is a result of their "rejecting YHWH". This is very similar to the later demand for a King like the nations. Often, I find that God fulfills the request of His people, even when they are in rebellion. He allows them what they ask for in order that they will realize what they have done and return to His ways. Be careful what you ask for! This Torah reading also contains some interesting points on the imparting of the Spirit. Chapter 11:1-18, and 24-25 reveal the solution to Moses carrying the whole burden alone. God takes some of the Spirit that is upon Moses and shares it with the "70". They prophesy as an indication that the Spirit is on them, but then it says that they did not do so again (v.25). One is reminded of the story in 1 Samuel 10. Of particular note is what is recorded in 1 Samuel 10:6 - When the spirit comes upon you...you will become a different man! How true is this? When people claim to be spirit filled and continue to practice their ungodly behavior, one has to wonder if their claims are true. When Moses is informed that some are in the camp prophesying and that he should make them stop - he says that he wished all YHWH's people were prophets. This is important. Too often leaders want to be in charge and have others in servitude to themselves. Not so with Moses! Yeshua said that this is the way Gentiles think. Many churches are full of this in their pastor adoration! We should all learn from this. An interesting play on words that shows up in the Hebrew comes next. Moses has just asked the YHWH "put his Spirit on" the people so that they could all be prophets. In the very next verse, the "Ruach" does indeed travel to the people, but translated as "wind", the Ruach from YHWH brings the quail that the people craved! Be careful what you ask for! In Chapter 12, we find Aaron and Miriam complaining against Moses. This is a remarkable story! God calls them into account for their challenge against Moses. He would later ask them, "Why did you not fear to speak against my servant Moses?!" We should learn from this that one should be very cautious when speaking words against the meekest man on all the earth. God spoke to him, mouth to mouth and he saw the "form of YHWH"! For her part in this, Miriam is afflicted. I find it very instructive to read the prayer that Moses offers on her behalf. I have been in prayer meetings with many over the years where people petition God with many words. Yeshua talks of this repetitious prayer practice. Do we think that we must go on and on for God to hear us and answer? Moses says 5 Hebrew words and God acts. "God, please heal her please." We should learn from this. So this is my summary of the Torah reading for this week. Study it and learn from it. The festival of Shavuoth has just passed. I pray that like the ancient Israelites, we receive the Torah afresh. Put these words in your heart. Be humble, seek God and keep your prayers simple. Plead with God on behalf of others - even when they do wrong to you. Moses wished that all of God's people were prophets and that He would put his spirit on all of them. I pray that as well. Have a great week. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/8ad8e4f4/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 23:50:05 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:50:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! My love to you, dear brother Judah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/b2321717/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 00:13:55 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:13:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Be-Ha'alotcha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: WONDERFUL, ROSS!!!! Thank you so much for this deep teaching on next week's parsha. Tomorrow, when I'm more awake, I'm going to really study it. I read it tonight and got so much from it - I can just imagine how it will hit me tomorrow when I read it afresh! Your work is very much appreciated by us all. Love, Pat From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:43 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Be-Ha'alotcha I wanted to send out some of my notes this week related to my personal study of the weekly parsha (annual cycle). It is sort of long, but I hope it helps. The reading, called Be-Ha'alotcha (translated, "When you put up"), has some key points and some of the most interesting - though seemingly unconnected stories. It begins with instructions for the "putting up" of the menorah, speaks of the "purification of the Levites", who according to the literal reading of the Hebrew (8:16) are "given, yes given" to YHWH. There is allowance made for a "make up" Passover for those that were on a journey or impure when the Pesach of the first month was kept. In Chapter 9, we read an interesting point that "there will be one statute for you (pl) and for the stranger and for the citizen of the land". I love this idea. There are many out there that place artificial distinctions between Israel and humanity. It is my opinion that all of the world will be instructed into the "Way of YHWH". Indeed this is the reason for Israel serving as a nation of Priests, being given a charge to be a light to the nations, etc. One only has to read Isaiah chapters 2 and 56 (for example) to see that this is the goal for humanity. Chapter 9:15-23 we read of the cloud and how it guided the travels of the Israelites. I had not noticed it in previous readings of this text, but the movement of the cloud and the reaction to this move by the people following, are closely associated with their obedience to the "word of YHWH" (mouth might be a better rendering). Chapter 10 deals with the reasons for the sounding of the trumpets and the order of travel for the tribes. Chapter 11 switches gears on us. Here we meet with much complaining by the people. They long to return to Egypt. I guess this had me thinking. Often, I meet people who have left their "spiritual Egypt", but for one reason or another they begin to crave the things that they had there. The provision of God begins to lose its flavor and they want to return. These complaints are "bad in the ears of YHWH" and His anger is flared - and subsequently we read that it was bad in Moses' eyes. The people still direct their complaints to the man Moses and not to God. In this week's lesson we see that despite Moses' humility - he is becoming a bit tired. The people lash out at Moses and he unloads on God. He feels that he is carrying the burden alone and asks God to kill him if things continue as they are. I think that it is interesting to note that God does not react...or should I say over-react to Moses when he makes this comment. In fact, he seemingly ignores his drama altogether and just resolves the issues at hand. Often, I think we take comments of others and over-react causing more problems rather than setting forth solutions. This can be a lesson to us all. God does not chide Moses for his exaggerated remark, He merely sets things straight. Read it and see how God "fixes" the problem! In verse 20 we find that God informs Moses what he should relate to the complainers. If they want what they had in Egypt, then that is what they shall get. Not just a taste of what they had, but enough that it will run out of their noses! It should be noted that this is a result of their "rejecting YHWH". This is very similar to the later demand for a King like the nations. Often, I find that God fulfills the request of His people, even when they are in rebellion. He allows them what they ask for in order that they will realize what they have done and return to His ways. Be careful what you ask for! This Torah reading also contains some interesting points on the imparting of the Spirit. Chapter 11:1-18, and 24-25 reveal the solution to Moses carrying the whole burden alone. God takes some of the Spirit that is upon Moses and shares it with the "70". They prophesy as an indication that the Spirit is on them, but then it says that they did not do so again (v.25). One is reminded of the story in 1 Samuel 10. Of particular note is what is recorded in 1 Samuel 10:6 - When the spirit comes upon you...you will become a different man! How true is this? When people claim to be spirit filled and continue to practice their ungodly behavior, one has to wonder if their claims are true. When Moses is informed that some are in the camp prophesying and that he should make them stop - he says that he wished all YHWH's people were prophets. This is important. Too often leaders want to be in charge and have others in servitude to themselves. Not so with Moses! Yeshua said that this is the way Gentiles think. Many churches are full of this in their pastor adoration! We should all learn from this. An interesting play on words that shows up in the Hebrew comes next. Moses has just asked the YHWH "put his Spirit on" the people so that they could all be prophets. In the very next verse, the "Ruach" does indeed travel to the people, but translated as "wind", the Ruach from YHWH brings the quail that the people craved! Be careful what you ask for! In Chapter 12, we find Aaron and Miriam complaining against Moses. This is a remarkable story! God calls them into account for their challenge against Moses. He would later ask them, "Why did you not fear to speak against my servant Moses?!" We should learn from this that one should be very cautious when speaking words against the meekest man on all the earth. God spoke to him, mouth to mouth and he saw the "form of YHWH"! For her part in this, Miriam is afflicted. I find it very instructive to read the prayer that Moses offers on her behalf. I have been in prayer meetings with many over the years where people petition God with many words. Yeshua talks of this repetitious prayer practice. Do we think that we must go on and on for God to hear us and answer? Moses says 5 Hebrew words and God acts. "God, please heal her please." We should learn from this. So this is my summary of the Torah reading for this week. Study it and learn from it. The festival of Shavuoth has just passed. I pray that like the ancient Israelites, we receive the Torah afresh. Put these words in your heart. Be humble, seek God and keep your prayers simple. Plead with God on behalf of others - even when they do wrong to you. Moses wished that all of God's people were prophets and that He would put his spirit on all of them. I pray that as well. Have a great week. Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/1d2b7286/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 00:35:11 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:35:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Hanoch! Thank you for these verses! I especially love *And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd."* *Zechariah 10:6-7* Amber On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:30 AM, wrote: > Shalom L'Kulchem - > > As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah > throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the > shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which > helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they > call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I > listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila > (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim > (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets > that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying > that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost > hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. > > And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as > dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts > (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any > longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and > look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep > deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my > prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? > *Hanoch* > > *"Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the > transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His > anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us > compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths > of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the > loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of > yore."* > * Micah > 7:18-20* > ** > *"Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate > wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your > afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is > in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said > to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd > your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice > over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over > you with song.' "* > * Zephaniah 3:14-17* > ** > *"And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will > save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon > them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the > L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty > man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children > shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd."* > *Zechariah 10:6-7* > ** > *"And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who > fear My Name."* > *Malachi 3:20* > ** > *"And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and > with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts > and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious > and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the > evil."* > * > Joel:2:12-13 > * > ** > *"Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the > reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains > shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the > captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and > settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they > shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon > their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have > given them, says HaShem your G-d." * > > > *Amos 9:13-15* > ** > ** > > > > > ------------------------------ > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/1e05c3bf/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Jun 11 01:06:37 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:06:37 -0700 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Message-ID: <200806110606.m5B66aan028411@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080610/85d57414/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Jun 11 01:24:52 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 02:24:52 -0400 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights In-Reply-To: <200806110606.m5B66aan028411@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806110606.m5B66aan028411@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Steve, what a realization, to understand that as we earnestly, fervently pray the Confession Prayer, we are actually standing in for Ephraim! That's such an amazing concept! It would have been enough (dayanu!!!) if we were praying that heartfelt prayer of repentance just for ourselves alone, but to think we are standing in for Kol Yisrael is too wonderful!!! Good night, dear brother, Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Hanoch, Pat and All, This is what I am expecting, but we must pray, intercede, NOW. http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Standing-In.html Thanks for your prayers, am working on the confession prayer some more. Steve At 09:47 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote: OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! My love to you, dear brother Judah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:28 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org Subject: [UILIST] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/2229409b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Wed Jun 11 09:40:53 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:40:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report Message-ID: <8CA99E8490DDB83-710-112@WEBMAIL-DC09.sysops.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 8 Sivan 5768 June 11, 2008 Shalom Blessed be the name of Hashem from this time forth and for ever. From the rising of the sun to the going down thereof, Hashem's name is to be praised. Psalm 113:2-3 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/4d1d00ca/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 23:46:47 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:46:47 -0500 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights In-Reply-To: References: <200806110606.m5B66aan028411@mail135c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806112146q4e8cf003j55408296e5418593@mail.gmail.com> Baruch HaShem! I will continue praying the Ephraim prayer. Much going on in my personal life, but I feel that HaShem is leading me just so I continue to pray and let him be in charge. Kim On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Steve, what a realization, to understand that as we earnestly, fervently > pray the Confession Prayer, we are actually standing in for Ephraim! That's > such an amazing concept! It would have been enough (dayanu!!!) if we were > praying that heartfelt prayer of repentance just for ourselves alone, but to > think we are standing in for Kol Yisrael is too wonderful!!! > > Good night, dear brother, > > Avigail/Pat > > *From:* Steve Mathe > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:06 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights > > Hanoch, Pat and All, > > This is what I am expecting, but we must pray, intercede, NOW. > http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Standing-In.html > > Thanks for your prayers, am working on the confession prayer some more. > > Steve > > > > At 09:47 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote: > > OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as > if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's > loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep > deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I > would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible > is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, > with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I > lingered over each and every one!!! > > My love to you, dear brother Judah, > > Avigail/Pat > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:28 AM > *To:* uilist at unitedisrael.org > *Subject:* [UILIST] Some Personal Shavuot Insights > > Shalom L'Kulchem - > > As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah > throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the > shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which > helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they > call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I > listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila > (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim > (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets > that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that > tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping > I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. > > And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as > dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts > (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any > longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and > look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep > deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my > prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? > *Hanoch > * > *"Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the > transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His > anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us > compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths > of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the > loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of > yore." > Micah 7:18-20 > * > *"Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate > wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your > afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is > in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said > to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd > your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice > over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over > you with song.' " > Zephaniah 3:14-17 > * > *"And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will > save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon > them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the > L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty > man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children > shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." > * *Zechariah 10:6-7 > * > *"And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who > fear My Name." > * *Malachi 3:20 > * > *"And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and > with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts > and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious > and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the > evil." > > Joel:2:12-13 > * > *"Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the > reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains > shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the > captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and > settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they > shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon > their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have > given them, says HaShem your G-d." > * > *Amos 9:13-15 > * > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 > . > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/f5baf213/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Jun 11 23:55:10 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:55:10 -0500 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806112146q4e8cf003j55408296e5418593@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, Baruch HaShem! May He continue to lead you and us all as we pray and let Him be in charge! Blessings to all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Baruch HaShem! I will continue praying the Ephraim prayer. Much going on in my personal life, but I feel that HaShem is leading me just so I continue to pray and let him be in charge. Kim On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Steve, what a realization, to understand that as we earnestly, fervently pray the Confession Prayer, we are actually standing in for Ephraim! That's such an amazing concept! It would have been enough (dayanu!!!) if we were praying that heartfelt prayer of repentance just for ourselves alone, but to think we are standing in for Kol Yisrael is too wonderful!!! Good night, dear brother, Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Hanoch, Pat and All, This is what I am expecting, but we must pray, intercede, NOW. http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Standing-In.html Thanks for your prayers, am working on the confession prayer some more. Steve At 09:47 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote: OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! My love to you, dear brother Judah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:28 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org Subject: [UILIST] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 _____ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _____ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080611/49c65602/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Jun 12 01:04:32 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:04:32 -0500 Subject: Hancoh, Pat, Steve [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0F8973BF402A4131BCF600E2A36BAE9A@bettygivin> No way to beat that response, Miss Avigail/Pat! And I say, "Amen!" to these beautiful P.R;s! It was so good to hear from you Hanoch and hear about your "all night" study and prayer session with HaShem. And glad you are studying the Neviim.maybe some of your friends from Judah might just catch on to the value of the prophets as well. So glad you have been brought into our lives. Did you ever get in touch with Rabbi Shimon regarding the Lost Tribes and their return? I wonder what he would think if he knew there was a whole "slew" of us who are discovering our roots and being led back to Torah! Just because Shavuot is over.that shouldn't mean that we should not keep on praying this prayer.after all we will be coming up to the Fast of Tammuz and then Tish B'Av will be here before we know it. And Steve, thanks again so so much for having the openness of heart and mind to put together such an AMAZING prayer! Laila tov all and blessings for this evening.and have a good day tomorrow! Elisheva/Betty P.S. I may not have the time to be on line very much with the list for awhile.I feel like I am in the desert without water when I cannot read and communicate with everyone. Roger says I am addicted.maybe I am. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 11:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! My love to you, dear brother Judah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Some of my personal 'gleanings' on Shavuot Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 _____ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 . _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/a7fa8e8a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 06:11:25 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:11:25 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] "Great Dreams" - from Rav Kook Message-ID: Boker tov - Here's some insights taken from Rav Kook, THE most illustrious of Torah sages of the 20th Century Hanoch BeHa'alotecha: Great Dreams In contrast to the unique level and clarity of Moses' prophecy, ordinary prophecy is bestowed through the medium of visions and dreams: "If someone among you experiences divine prophecy, I will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream." [Num. 12:6] Why Dreams? Dreams, Rav Kook wrote, serve an important function in the world. Great dreams are the very foundation of the universe. Dreams exist on many levels. There are the prescient dreams of prophets, and the conscious dreaming of poets. There are the idealistic dreams of great visionaries for a better world; and there are our national dreams of redemption - "When God will return the captivity of Zion, we will be like dreamers" [Psalms 126:1]. Of course, not every dream falls under the category of a great dream. Some dreams are inconsequential, as it says, "Dreams speak falsely" [Zechariah 10:2]. What determines whether a dream is prophetic or meaningless? True and False Dreams True servants of God concentrate their aspirations and efforts on rectifying the entire world. When one's thoughts and actions are devoted exclusively to perfecting all of creation, then one's imagination will only be stimulated by matters that relate to the universal reality. The dreams of such individuals will naturally be of great significance. Their dreams are tied to the inner truth of reality, to its past, present, and future. But for those people who are preoccupied with private concerns, their imaginative faculties will be limited - like their waking thoughts and actions - to personal issues. What truth could be revealed in imaginings that never succeeded in rising above the thoughts and wishes of a self-centered individual? The Sages expressed this idea with the following allegorical imagery: prophetic dreams are brought by angels, while false dreams are brought by demons [Brachot 55b]. What does this mean? Angels are constant forces in the universe, pre-arranged to perfect the world. True dreams relate to these underlying positive forces. Demons, on the other hand, are non-holy forces based on specific objectives which are inconsistent with the overall universal order. False dreams are the resultant fantasies of such private desires. The True Reality of Dreams What would the world be like without dreams? Life immersed solely in its material aspects is coarse and bleak. It lacks the inspiring splendor of wide horizons; like a bird with clipped wings, it is unable to transcend the bitter harshness of the current reality. The ability to free ourselves from these shackles is only through the power of dreams. Some foolishly take pride in being 'realists.' They insist on only considering the material world in its present state - a partial and fragmented view of reality. In fact, it is our dreams that liberate us from the limitations of the current reality. It is our dreams that accurately reveal the inner truth of the universe. As that future reality is steadily revealed, we merit an increasing clarity of vision. Our perception approaches the aspaklaria me'irah of Moses, with whom God spoke "face to face, in a vision not containing allegory, so that he could see a true picture of God" [Num. 12:8]. [adapted from Orot HaKodesh vol. I, p. 226; Ein Ayah vol. II, p. 279] Rav Kook on the Net: _RavKookTorah.org_ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/) This week's Dvar Torah: _RavKook.co.nr_ (http://www.ravkook.co.nr/) This Dvar Torah: _BEHAAL63.htm _ (http://www.ravkooktorah.org/BEHAAL63.htm) To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: _Rav Kook List_ (mailto:RavKookList at gmail.com) --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/e91581d9/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Thu Jun 12 06:47:50 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:47:50 -0500 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48510CE6.8010306@gninc.ca> Baruch HaShem I am making myself busy trying hard to get my debt payed for in an honorable way, but believe it or not I just can not leave the reading of many of these e-mails, that so warm my heart, and it seems to me there is nothing like paying the debts (our repentance from general ungodliness) of ours and our forefathers sins. I took this prayer to our little group on Shavuot for which I had to be driving 3 altogether hours back and forth after an 8 hour day of work. I introduced this prayer to only 3 people. I really don't know how much fruit this will bear, because it seems like really we are living in a time when there seems to be a famine having our minds more on the things that pertain to this world than to really concentrate on the living Word HaShem's Torah. The real life saver. But my heart aches for truth. I want to thank all of you who are such a living example, by the kindness and love and forbearance that is portrayed in these e-mails. I was reading a neglected reading for the fifth of this month on Ruth this morning from KNOW YOUR BIBLE sent each day by Abraham Greenbaum from Israel. He writes: The book of Ruth - an enchanting agricultural allegory replete with some of the deepest Torah mysteries - centers on the theme of embrace of the Torah itself through conversion and the practice of the kindness it teaches, which is the very pillar of the Universe. Isn't that profound? No wonder there is such a warmth flowing from these e-mails of you people. Keep it up dear ones, you may not even know the impact it has on the whole world in our time of dearth of HaShems Word being lived out in the practice of kindness that illuminates from these e-mails to many a heart, of people who like me are so blessed by them. Keep up the only faith (emunah) the saying is that the Hebrew meaning of the word emunah is ten times as strong as the English version "faith". I believe this is what we will survive on in the time coming that may be rough financially, as well as spiritually, as HaShem is trying to get our attention to get ready for the "World to come". May HaShem richly bless you all Cornie Betty Givin wrote: > > Yes, Baruch HaShem! May He continue to lead you and us all as we pray > and let Him be in charge! > > > > Blessings to all, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *kim alvarado > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:47 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights > > > > Baruch HaShem! I will continue praying the Ephraim prayer. Much > going on in my personal life, but I feel that HaShem is leading me > just so I continue to pray and let him be in charge. > > Kim > > On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Pat Robbins > > wrote: > > Steve, what a realization, to understand that as we earnestly, > fervently pray the Confession Prayer, we are actually standing in for > Ephraim! That's such an amazing concept! It would have been enough > (dayanu!!!) if we were praying that heartfelt prayer of repentance > just for ourselves alone, but to think we are standing in for Kol > Yisrael is too wonderful!!! > > > > Good night, dear brother, > > > > Avigail/Pat > > > > *From:* Steve Mathe > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:06 AM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights > > > > Hanoch, Pat and All, > > This is what I am expecting, but we must pray, intercede, NOW. > http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Standing-In.html > > Thanks for your prayers, am working on the confession prayer some more. > > Steve > > > > At 09:47 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote: > > OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly > as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our > Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been > sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing > heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of > PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them > with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a > precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! > > My love to you, dear brother Judah, > > Avigail/Pat > > *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:28 AM > *To:* uilist at unitedisrael.org > *Subject:* [UILIST] Some Personal Shavuot Insights > > Shalom L'Kulchem - > > As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah > throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at > the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that > is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' > (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible > load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the > time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had > prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't > usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to > read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, > and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a > 'response' to my prayers. > > And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly > as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through > the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in > depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I > could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came > across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an > 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks > tell me what YOU think, okay? > */Hanoch > /* > *"Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the > transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain > His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return > and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall > cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the > truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our > forefathers from days of yore." > Micah > 7:18-20 > * > *"Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate > wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your > afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the > L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day > it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands > not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who > will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in > His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " > Zephaniah 3:14-17 > * > *"And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I > will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy > upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for > I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be > like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. > And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful > with the L-rd." > * *Zechariah 10:6-7 > * > *"And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you > who fear My Name." > * *Malachi 3:20 > * > *"And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart > and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your > hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He > is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He > relents of the evil." > > Joel:2:12-13 > * > *"Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet > the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the > mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will > revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build > desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and > drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their > fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never > again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem > your G-d." > * > *Amos 9:13-15 > * > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > _______________________________________________ > UILIST mailing list > UILIST at unitedisrael.org > > **** This is a private list. > **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list > **** without permission from the person who wrote it. > **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * > ************************************************ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/2e69e73e/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Thu Jun 12 07:04:14 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:04:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> Isn't this beautiful! Moshiach is coming! I was on this very spot in which this 5 minute video is taking place where Rabbi Lazer Brodi is speaking, that was in 2003 with an exceptional tour, that required an armed guard, who was one of us at that time. Baruch HaShem Cornie FeedBlitz wrote: > > > > Your email updates, powered by FeedBlitz > > > Here are the latest updates for *correim at gninc.ca* > > > *"Lazer Beams " - 2 > new articles* > > 1. Moshiach is Coming <#40199_0> > 2. Israel's Blessing <#40199_1> > 3. More Recent Articles <#40199_recap> > 4. Search Lazer Beams > > > *Moshiach is Coming > * > > We delight in bringing you the good news. Everything that looks bad is > really good, because it's all part of the pre-Moshiach scenario. The > Beams is now about to take you on pictorial tour of our exquisitely > gorgeous holy Land of Israel, with the added treat of a brand new > Yosef Karduner song, "Moshiach Yavo" (Moshiach will Come) in the > background. The song was written by Rabbi Baruch Klein, and his son > Yaakov Shalom accompanies Yosef, with Yosef's two sons Moshe Nachman > and Shimon Natan singing in the background. Yosef's new CD album > Mikdash Melech > > is his best ever, and now available on line from here at the Beams > (see the toolbar at right). > > > ? Email to a friend > > ? Article Search > > ? Related > > ? [Listen to this article] > > ? > > [Rate 'Moshiach is Coming'] > > > *Israel's Blessing > * > > The following 5-minute clip was filmed last week on Mount Gerizim, > overlooking the holy gravesite of Yosef HaTzaddik in Shechem. > > > ? Email to a friend > > ? Related > > ? [Listen to this article] > > ? > > [Rate 'Israel's Blessing'] > > > More Recent Articles > > * Reinforcements > > * Shavuot at BreslovWorld > > * Today You Are a Nation > > * Gideon's Courage > > * Emuna News Profile: The Rise of Raed Salah > > > > > > [Ads delivered by FeedBlitz] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > /Click here to safely unsubscribe now > > from "Lazer Beams" or change subscription settings > [This update is > powered by FeedBlitz, www.feedblitz.com] / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe from all current and future newsletters > > powered by FeedBlitz > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your requested content delivery powered by FeedBlitz > , LLC, 9 Thoreau Way, Sudbury, MA 01776, > USA. +1.978.776.9498 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/be4a72a4/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 12:44:29 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:44:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Great Dreams" - from Rav Kook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is great, Hanoch! We are able to gauge dreams according to their efficacy to rectify the entire world, as revealed by the Plan of HaSHem in His Tenakh. So this means that when we "see" something that later comes to pass, we need to contemplate its place in His design. Sometimes our preconceived ideas of those dreams are wrong, or at least inadequate, compared to His actual Plan for the restoration of all things. This was a wonderful article by Rabbi Kook, and gives us much to consider. Thank you so much for sharing it. Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 7:11 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] "Great Dreams" - from Rav Kook Boker tov - Here's some insights taken from Rav Kook, THE most illustrious of Torah sages of the 20th Century Hanoch BeHa'alotecha: Great Dreams In contrast to the unique level and clarity of Moses' prophecy, ordinary prophecy is bestowed through the medium of visions and dreams: "If someone among you experiences divine prophecy, I will make Myself known to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream." [Num. 12:6] Why Dreams? Dreams, Rav Kook wrote, serve an important function in the world. Great dreams are the very foundation of the universe. Dreams exist on many levels. There are the prescient dreams of prophets, and the conscious dreaming of poets. There are the idealistic dreams of great visionaries for a better world; and there are our national dreams of redemption - "When God will return the captivity of Zion, we will be like dreamers" [Psalms 126:1]. Of course, not every dream falls under the category of a great dream. Some dreams are inconsequential, as it says, "Dreams speak falsely" [Zechariah 10:2]. What determines whether a dream is prophetic or meaningless? True and False Dreams True servants of God concentrate their aspirations and efforts on rectifying the entire world. When one's thoughts and actions are devoted exclusively to perfecting all of creation, then one's imagination will only be stimulated by matters that relate to the universal reality. The dreams of such individuals will naturally be of great significance. Their dreams are tied to the inner truth of reality, to its past, present, and future. But for those people who are preoccupied with private concerns, their imaginative faculties will be limited - like their waking thoughts and actions - to personal issues. What truth could be revealed in imaginings that never succeeded in rising above the thoughts and wishes of a self-centered individual? The Sages expressed this idea with the following allegorical imagery: prophetic dreams are brought by angels, while false dreams are brought by demons [Brachot 55b]. What does this mean? Angels are constant forces in the universe, pre-arranged to perfect the world. True dreams relate to these underlying positive forces. Demons, on the other hand, are non-holy forces based on specific objectives which are inconsistent with the overall universal order. False dreams are the resultant fantasies of such private desires. The True Reality of Dreams What would the world be like without dreams? Life immersed solely in its material aspects is coarse and bleak. It lacks the inspiring splendor of wide horizons; like a bird with clipped wings, it is unable to transcend the bitter harshness of the current reality. The ability to free ourselves from these shackles is only through the power of dreams. Some foolishly take pride in being 'realists.' They insist on only considering the material world in its present state - a partial and fragmented view of reality. In fact, it is our dreams that liberate us from the limitations of the current reality. It is our dreams that accurately reveal the inner truth of the universe. As that future reality is steadily revealed, we merit an increasing clarity of vision. Our perception approaches the aspaklaria me'irah of Moses, with whom God spoke "face to face, in a vision not containing allegory, so that he could see a true picture of God" [Num. 12:8]. [adapted from Orot HaKodesh vol. I, p. 226; Ein Ayah vol. II, p. 279] Rav Kook on the Net: RavKookTorah.org This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr This Dvar Torah: BEHAAL63.htm To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook List --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List Comments and inquiries may be sent to: RavKookList at gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/da16bef5/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jun 12 14:40:44 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem: The Final Frontier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00be01c8ccc4$35e81e40$a1b85ac0$@com> Jerusalem: The Final Frontier By: Zalmi Unsdorfer Date Posted: June 12, 2008 http://www.jewishpress.com/UploadedImages/stdImage/180kotel-061308.jpg It didn't take more than a few hours for Barack Obama to backtrack on the promise he made at last week's AIPAC convention to maintain Jerusalem as the undivided capital of the Jewish state. But who are we to complain when Israel's own prime minister chose to "celebrate" Yom Yerushalayim in Washington and was rumored to be carrying plans for the surrender of vast parts of the city, down to the last street name and alleyway? During Israel's 60th anniversary celebrations Ehud Olmert admonished the Israelis to buy into his surrender and appeasement policy. To quell any ideas of retaining the Jewish capital, he declared: "Only fantasists can believe that in this day and age, and in the current situation, it is still possible to cling to the vision of Greater Israel." That Olmert had strayed so far from the Revisionist ideals of his ideological mentor Ze'ev Jabotinsky was bad enough. But this latest statement placed him even to the left of Ben-Gurion, who famously said, "To be a realist in the land of Israel, one has to believe in miracles." It was this fear of an imminent division of our national capital that brought such a large crowd to UK-Likud's annual Yom Yerushalayim celebration in London the previous Sunday. In the front row I spotted Rev. Leslie Hardman. Now in his nineties, he was chaplain of the British armed forces in 1945 and one of the first Jews to unlock the horrors of the concentration camps. My own father at Auschwitz may have been one of those survivors who told his liberators how inmates had collected cigarette butts to trade tobacco with the camp guards in exchange for some flour to make matzo for Seder night. I fantasized a scene of the Jewish chaplain sitting among all those forlorn figures and what he might have offered them as some hope for the future. "Did you sing Leshana Haba'ah b'Yerushalayim?" he might have asked. They would all have nodded enthusiastically. "Well then, let me tell you something," he may have continued. "I have a vision that you will yet live to see the creation of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael with Jerusalem as its capital. And, after vanquishing all the Arab armies in six days, your children will begin celebrating their bar mitzvahs at the Kotel, where Jews from all over the word will come to pray under the protection of the strongest army in the entire region." Even with their wits dulled by starvation and disease, this group of survivors might have regarded the reverend as completely mad. Nevertheless, stay with me and imagine if he had then continued to prophesy: "And then, having kept Jerusalem united under Jewish rule for 40 years, the new State of Israel will be asked by the world to give it back to the Arabs. And they will do so, with the stroke of a pen and not so much as a shot fired." I wondered at the level of anger and sense of betrayal such a conversation might have invoked among those Holocaust survivors. Those who have survived to this day will be no less angry, perhaps more so for the memories of their fellow inmates who perished in the camps with "Shema Yisrael" on their lips and a vision of Jerusalem in their minds. And yet, the prime minister of Israel will not even dignify their memory by putting up a fight for something millions died for. This appeasement of the world's demands for the dismemberment of the Jewish state goes on against the backdrop of a new threat from Iran. At last week's AIPAC conference, all the major speakers seem to have acknowledged that a nuclear Iran is not just Israel's problem but represents a clear and present danger to the West as well. Just so, I would venture to suggest, is the proposed division of Jerusalem. The future of Jerusalem is not just a Jewish or Israeli problem. It is an issue that has major ramifications for the free nations of the West. We are in the midst of a world war commonly referred to as the "War on Terror." But when - and if - the history books are written about this struggle, it will be referred to by its real name: the Islamic War. A conflict between good and evil - between those who cherish life and those who embrace death; between those who seek to build on a century of democracy and technological progress and those who wish to bomb us all back into the Middle Ages. And the frontline of this essentially religious struggle is not in Iraq or Afghanistan, but in Jerusalem. To explain this I need to move from my fantasy about the chaplain in the concentration camp to science fiction, so much of which has ultimately come true. There is an old "Star Trek" episode in which the ship encounters a fiery ribbon cut into the blackness of space. All the instruments go off-scale and, in a flash, the captain and senior officers are beamed away and immediately replaced by doubles. But these doubles are brutal psychopaths; just the opposite of the decent men they replaced. Meanwhile, the real Captain Kirk and his officers find themselves on an identical ship, but one filled with consummately evil passengers and crew. They had interchanged with a parallel universe through a rip in the cosmos. A world where everything was the exact opposite - love supplanted by hate, compassion replaced by brutality. Dead bodies littered the lower decks as the degenerate crewmembers used murder to advance their rank. There is no better parallel to our present times. And no better manifestation of that rip in the cosmos than the Kotel Maaravi - the Western Wall of the ancient Jewish temple. In front of our Wall stands everything that is good. An impossibly tiny nation whose people count for one-tenth of one percent of the world's population but hold the highest proportion of Nobel prizes in all fields of endeavor that have enriched the world and the welfare of mankind. The only nation in history to have returned to its homeland after 2,000 years - and, to top it off, in half a century transformed a desert landscape into a world-beating powerhouse. This side of the Wall swears in the recruits of the most humane army that has ever existed in the history of conflict - the only army that takes a human rights lawyer into battle against its enemies. Perhaps more important, this side of the Wall is home to citizens whose compassion and humanity are second to none in the world. A people who have not known a day free of terrorism in the 60 years since their state was formed and yet are daily healing the ailments of their enemies. And as Gazan children are treated in Israeli hospitals, their Jewish doctors live in fear of a phone call informing them that their home, or their children's kindergarten, has been rocketed by Hamas. Despite all the lies and vile propaganda, it is a fact that Israel has never once cut off the electricity supply to Gaza. But still the Arabs continue to rocket the hand that feeds them and Ashkelon power workers come to work each day not knowing whether their homes will still be intact by evening. On our Jewish side of the Wall stands a people who can claim to be the most charitable on earth. Arising from government cuts to maintain the essentials of defense and the huge cost of absorbing over a million new immigrants from Russia and Ethiopia, citizens have turned kindness into an art form. There are more charitable and voluntary support organizations per capita in Israel than practically anywhere else in the world. >From simple soup kitchens to terror victim support, these organizations have woven a tapestry of humanity and compassion that would be the envy of the world - if only the world's news media were fair in its coverage of Israel. As much as European politicians like to draw comparisons with Northern Ireland, most realists have come to accept that there can never be peace between Judaism and Islam. Irish Catholics may have wanted a united Ireland but they never incited their kids to kill every last Protestant as a religious duty. So long as Islamists use the Palestinian Arabs as pawns in their bid to remove all infidels from Muhammad's peninsula, there will be no peace for Israel, no matter how much territory she hands over. * * * Then we get to the parallel universe that stands on the opposite side of the Wall. A culture of hatred and death that starts in kindergarten. A faith that has translated its holiest book into a screed of savagery. A cowardly army that launches rockets from schoolyards and hospitals. Mothers who celebrate the suicide deaths of their bomber sons and who send their daughters on postnatal appointments to bomb the Israeli midwives who delivered their last grandchild. Unrepentant terrorists who vow to return to their murdering ways even as their freedom is negotiated in exchange for a simple set of Israeli dog tags. This may be the front line, but the demon seed has already pollinated in Europe and America. London and Madrid have had their own taste of 9/11 and there will surely be more to come. In just the past few days we have seen the architect of 9/11's carnage using a U.S. courtroom to extol his pride in the Islamic mission of mass murder and thereby encourage other sleepers to follow his example. Whenever I stand at the Kotel, I feel very strongly that this wall represents the thin line between these parallel universes of our time. By the grace of God, Israel stands at that frontier and has provided free access to pilgrims of all religions to the places that are holy to their faiths. The free world remains that much safer for as long as Israel holds that line. As for all the journalists and pundits who love to demonize the Jewish state at every opportunity, let them remember that they are only free to do so because countries like Israel keep that rip in the universe sealed up. If the forces of radical Islam are allowed to seep through and take hold, their critical reporting will be subject to beheadings and their womenfolk will no longer be free to dress, work, and live life as they please. When I stand at the Kotel I also focus on all those kvitlach; the hundreds of scribbled notes squashed into the cracks of the wall. Each one seeks help from the Almighty in some way or another: to cure a sick child, to find a suitable marriage partner or simply sufficient funds and food to keep the family going. But mostly, just a simple wish for "peace" - whatever that word means in the lexicon of this troubled region. I don't know if there is a similar wall or "wish depository" in the parallel universe. But if there were such a thing on the opposite side of the Wall, I imagine the majority of entreaties from the radicalized masses could be summarized by one central theme: "Death to the Jews." So there it is: Jerusalem truly is the "Final Frontier." And I am thinking: what better way to seal those cracks and insulate us from such a parallel universe of hate than with the prayers and pleas of decent people who share and cherish our simple human values? I leave the last word to Benjamin Netanyahu with an extract from his welcome to President Bush at the Knesset last month: But there is one other thing which we must preserve. It is not strictly confined to issues of secure borders or territory but rather to a central factor in our national existence: Jerusalem! In your previous visit here, Mr. President, I presented you with a coin from the period of the Jewish revolt against the Romans. One side of the coin was inscribed with the words "Shekel of Israel," and the other side "Year Three [of Israel's Independence]" and the words "Jerusalem the Holy." Mr. President, this coin was minted in 70 C.E. The Roman legions had already gripped Judea and were strangling Jerusalem. The city's Jewish defenders knew that the end was near. They minted this coin not for commercial purposes but as a message for future generations - as a message for us: that the Jewish People would return to its land and rebuild Jerusalem and its independence. This is the source of our identity and the thrust of our millennial yearnings. That is why Herzl called the national movement of the Jewish people "Zionism" - in honor of Mount Zion in the heart of Jerusalem. This is why Jews in Toledo during the expulsion from Spain and why Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto pledged "Next Year in Jerusalem!" In all the centuries of our exile and even with the advent of independence, we never forget for an instant the Western Wall, the Temple Mount and the Old City. Forty years ago, we liberated Jerusalem and reunited it. Our first act was to ensure the freedom of religion which had previously been denied. That religious freedom, which is so cherished by the citizens of the United States and so vital to world peace, will be preserved as long as Jerusalem remains united under Israeli sovereignty. Mr. President, the Promised Land is a land of promise. We have shown a remarkable ability to overcome adversity and to unleash the great powers of creativity stored within us. We can bring unimagined prosperity to ourselves and to our neighbors, we can defeat the terrorist enemies of democracy and freedom, we can achieve peace with our neighbors. But to do so we must remain true to our principles: That freedom should be protected, that enterprise should be nurtured, that peace should be defended, that Jerusalem should remain united. The rebirth of Israel is one of history's great parables. It is the story not of the Jews alone, but of a human spirit that refuses to succumb to history's horrors. It is the incomparable quest of a people seeking, at the end of an unending march, to be a free people in its own land, the Land of Zion and Jerusalem. Zalmi Unsdorfer is chairman of Likud-Herut in the UK and blogs at www.zalmi.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/16af7e33/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 7356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/16af7e33/attachment.jpe From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 19:42:29 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:42:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Jerusalem: The Final Frontier Message-ID: Hey Patty - GREAT article, sis - with a beautiful graphic, too! :-) Jerusalem may indeed be the final frontier, but the actual war is between HaShem and allah... Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/0dfae381/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 20:49:24 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:49:24 -0400 Subject: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights In-Reply-To: <48510CE6.8010306@gninc.ca> References: <48510CE6.8010306@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Cornie, how wonderful to hear from you! Your letters are always so uplifting. Your words have a way of making us WANT to be better than we are, dear friend!! I've been praying for you, and am happy to know you are doing well. I will continue to pray. Just know you are loved and very much appreciated by all here. Was so happy to hear that you got to share Steve's Confession Prayer with your group. They may not have known what to make of it just yet, but it WILL take root, because it is HaSHem's Word just put into a prayer. Nothing could be more powerful!!!! I love what He says about His Word: "Is not My Word like a fire? says the L-RD; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?" Jer. 23:29 I actually think of a hammer blasting to pieces the rock of most stubborn resistance as I pray that prayer!!!! We are so very blessed to be able to pray it for ourselves and our brethren, the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel! BARUCH HASHEM!!!! Love to you, your family and your group, dear Cornie, Avigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 7:47 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Baruch HaShem I am making myself busy trying hard to get my debt payed for in an honorable way, but believe it or not I just can not leave the reading of many of these e-mails, that so warm my heart, and it seems to me there is nothing like paying the debts (our repentance from general ungodliness) of ours and our forefathers sins. I took this prayer to our little group on Shavuot for which I had to be driving 3 altogether hours back and forth after an 8 hour day of work. I introduced this prayer to only 3 people. I really don't know how much fruit this will bear, because it seems like really we are living in a time when there seems to be a famine having our minds more on the things that pertain to this world than to really concentrate on the living Word HaShem's Torah. The real life saver. But my heart aches for truth. I want to thank all of you who are such a living example, by the kindness and love and forbearance that is portrayed in these e-mails. I was reading a neglected reading for the fifth of this month on Ruth this morning from KNOW YOUR BIBLE sent each day by Abraham Greenbaum from Israel. He writes: The book of Ruth - an enchanting agricultural allegory replete with some of the deepest Torah mysteries - centers on the theme of embrace of the Torah itself through conversion and the practice of the kindness it teaches, which is the very pillar of the Universe. Isn't that profound? No wonder there is such a warmth flowing from these e-mails of you people. Keep it up dear ones, you may not even know the impact it has on the whole world in our time of dearth of HaShems Word being lived out in the practice of kindness that illuminates from these e-mails to many a heart, of people who like me are so blessed by them. Keep up the only faith (emunah) the saying is that the Hebrew meaning of the word emunah is ten times as strong as the English version "faith". I believe this is what we will survive on in the time coming that may be rough financially, as well as spiritually, as HaShem is trying to get our attention to get ready for the "World to come". May HaShem richly bless you all Cornie Betty Givin wrote: Yes, Baruch HaShem! May He continue to lead you and us all as we pray and let Him be in charge! Blessings to all, Elisheva/Betty ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Baruch HaShem! I will continue praying the Ephraim prayer. Much going on in my personal life, but I feel that HaShem is leading me just so I continue to pray and let him be in charge. Kim On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:24 AM, Pat Robbins wrote: Steve, what a realization, to understand that as we earnestly, fervently pray the Confession Prayer, we are actually standing in for Ephraim! That's such an amazing concept! It would have been enough (dayanu!!!) if we were praying that heartfelt prayer of repentance just for ourselves alone, but to think we are standing in for Kol Yisrael is too wonderful!!! Good night, dear brother, Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [dialogue] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Hanoch, Pat and All, This is what I am expecting, but we must pray, intercede, NOW. http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Standing-In.html Thanks for your prayers, am working on the confession prayer some more. Steve At 09:47 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote: OH, HANOCH!!!! THIS IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!!!! These pasuks are exactly as if in answer to Steve's tefila! Reading them is like hearing our Father's loving reply to our prayers of repentance. You may have been sleep deprived, but you certainly weren't deprived of a hearing heart!!!!! I would say most definitely these are a whole string of PR's. How incredible is that???? Thank you so much for sharing them with us. Just reading them, with Steve's prayer in mind, was such a precious time spent with HaSHem! I lingered over each and every one!!! My love to you, dear brother Judah, Avigail/Pat From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 12:28 AM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org Subject: [UILIST] Some Personal Shavuot Insights Shalom L'Kulchem - As is the custom on Shavuot evening, I stayed up learning Torah throughout the night. I attended a public shiur (lesson, or class) at the shul (synagogue) that I belong to (in addition to Ross' - that is..), which helped keep me awake. But, being used to 'multi-tasking' (that's what they call it at work, when they give you an impossible load to accomplish...), I listened in, occasionally, but spent the time praying the AMAZING tefila (prayer) that Steve Mathe had prepared, and studying elements of the Neviim (Prophets) that I don't usually focus upon, as well as individual prophets that I tend not to read as much. And I kept alternating - saying that tefila to myself, and then studying Navi...prayer and study...almost hoping I'd find a 'response' to my prayers. And, although I cannot claim that it was a PR, or anything nearly as dramatic as that, I began to 'notice' verses, as I skimmed through the texts (by 3:30am, I tend to 'skim,' and not be able to read in depth, any longer..). I folded over the corners of the pages, so I could go back and look at them. Well, I will write them as I came across them. In my sleep deprived mind, it seemed as if they were an 'answer,' of sorts to my prayers. Looking at it now, well...you folks tell me what YOU think, okay? Hanoch "Who is a G-d like You, Who forgives iniquity and passes over the transgressions of the remnant of His heritage? He does not maintain His anger forever, for He desires loving-kindness. He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea of their sins. You shall give the truth of Jacob, the loving-kindness of Abraham, which you swore to our forefathers from days of yore." Micah 7:18-20 "Sing, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O Israel! Rejoice and jubilate wholeheartedly, O daughter of Jerusalem! The L-rd has removed your afflictions; He has cast out your enemy. The King of Israel, the L-rd, is in your midst - you shall no longer fear evil. On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, 'Have no fear! O Zion, let your hands not be slack. The L-rd your G-d is in your midst - a Mighty One Who will save. He will rejoice over you with joy. He will be silent in His love. He will jubilate over you with song.' " Zephaniah 3:14-17 "And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and the house of Joseph I will save. And I will cause them to settle, for I have bestowed mercy upon them. And they shall be as though I had not forsaken them, for I am the L-rd their G-d, and I will answer them. And Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as if [with] wine. And their children shall see and rejoice; their heart shall be joyful with the L-rd." Zechariah 10:6-7 "And the sun of mercy shall rise with healing in its wings for you who fear My Name." Malachi 3:20 "And even know - declares HaShem - return to Me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and with lamentation. And rend your hearts and not your garments, and return to HaShem, your G-d, for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness, and He relents of the evil." Joel:2:12-13 "Behold, days are coming, declares HaShem, and the plowman shall meet the reaper and the treader of grapes him who carries the seed, and the mountains shall drip wine and all the hills shall melt. And I will revoke the captivity of My nation Israel, and they shall [re]build desolate cities and settle [them]; and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine; and they shall cultivate gardens and eat their fruits. And I will plant them upon their land and they will never again be uprooted from their land that I have given them, says HaShem your G-d." Amos 9:13-15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/3f2f140e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 20:51:23 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:51:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles In-Reply-To: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> References: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Your FeedBlitz UpdatesFABULOUS, CORNIE!!!!! THANK YOU!!!! ~ Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 8:04 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles Isn't this beautiful! Moshiach is coming! I was on this very spot in which this 5 minute video is taking place where Rabbi Lazer Brodi is speaking, that was in 2003 with an exceptional tour, that required an armed guard, who was one of us at that time. Baruch HaShem Cornie FeedBlitz wrote: Here are the latest updates for correim at gninc.ca "Lazer Beams" - 2 new articles 1.. Moshiach is Coming 2.. Israel's Blessing 3.. More Recent Articles 4.. Search Lazer Beams Moshiach is Coming We delight in bringing you the good news. Everything that looks bad is really good, because it's all part of the pre-Moshiach scenario. The Beams is now about to take you on pictorial tour of our exquisitely gorgeous holy Land of Israel, with the added treat of a brand new Yosef Karduner song, "Moshiach Yavo" (Moshiach will Come) in the background. The song was written by Rabbi Baruch Klein, and his son Yaakov Shalom accompanies Yosef, with Yosef's two sons Moshe Nachman and Shimon Natan singing in the background. Yosef's new CD album Mikdash Melech is his best ever, and now available on line from here at the Beams (see the toolbar at right). ? Email to a friend ? Article Search ? Related ? ? Israel's Blessing The following 5-minute clip was filmed last week on Mount Gerizim, overlooking the holy gravesite of Yosef HaTzaddik in Shechem. ? Email to a friend ? Related ? ? More Recent Articles a.. Reinforcements b.. Shavuot at BreslovWorld c.. Today You Are a Nation d.. Gideon's Courage e.. Emuna News Profile: The Rise of Raed Salah ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Click here to safely unsubscribe now from "Lazer Beams" or change subscription settings ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Unsubscribe from all current and future newsletters powered by FeedBlitz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Your requested content delivery powered by FeedBlitz, LLC, 9 Thoreau Way, Sudbury, MA 01776, USA. +1.978.776.9498 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/852e138a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/852e138a/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/852e138a/attachment-0001.obj From Correim at gninc.ca Thu Jun 12 21:21:32 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:21:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles In-Reply-To: References: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <4851D9AC.4050109@gninc.ca> Pat, I talked with Joe, or he called me tonight, it is such a pleasure to hear from you all thank you. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: > FABULOUS, CORNIE!!!!! THANK YOU!!!! ~ Pat > > *From:* Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Thursday, June 12, 2008 8:04 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles > > Isn't this beautiful! Moshiach is coming! I was on this very spot in > which this 5 minute video is taking place where Rabbi Lazer Brodi is > speaking, that was in 2003 with an exceptional tour, that required an > armed guard, who was one of us at that time. > Baruch HaShem > > Cornie > > > > FeedBlitz wrote: >> >> Your email updates, powered by FeedBlitz >> >> >> Here are the latest updates for *correim at gninc.ca* >> >> >> *"Lazer Beams " - 2 >> new articles* >> >> 1. Moshiach is Coming <#40199_0> >> 2. Israel's Blessing <#40199_1> >> 3. More Recent Articles <#40199_recap> >> 4. Search Lazer Beams >> >> >> *Moshiach is Coming >> * >> >> We delight in bringing you the good news. Everything that looks bad >> is really good, because it's all part of the pre-Moshiach scenario. >> The Beams is now about to take you on pictorial tour of our >> exquisitely gorgeous holy Land of Israel, with the added treat of a >> brand new Yosef Karduner song, "Moshiach Yavo" (Moshiach will Come) >> in the background. The song was written by Rabbi Baruch Klein, and >> his son Yaakov Shalom accompanies Yosef, with Yosef's two sons Moshe >> Nachman and Shimon Natan singing in the background. Yosef's new CD >> album Mikdash Melech >> >> is his best ever, and now available on line from here at the Beams >> (see the toolbar at right). >> >> >> ? Email to a friend >> >> ? Article Search >> >> ? Related >> >> ? [Listen to this article] >> >> ? >> >> [Rate 'Moshiach is Coming'] >> >> >> *Israel's Blessing >> * >> >> The following 5-minute clip was filmed last week on Mount Gerizim, >> overlooking the holy gravesite of Yosef HaTzaddik in Shechem. >> >> >> ? Email to a friend >> >> ? Related >> >> ? [Listen to this article] >> >> ? >> >> [Rate 'Israel's Blessing'] >> >> >> More Recent Articles >> >> * Reinforcements >> >> >> * Shavuot at BreslovWorld >> >> >> * Today You Are a Nation >> >> >> * Gideon's Courage >> >> >> * Emuna News Profile: The Rise of Raed Salah >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Ads delivered by FeedBlitz] >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> /Click here to safely unsubscribe now >> >> from "Lazer Beams" or change subscription settings >> [This update >> is powered by FeedBlitz, www.feedblitz.com] >> / >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Unsubscribe from all current and future newsletters >> >> powered by FeedBlitz >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Your requested content delivery powered by FeedBlitz >> , LLC, 9 Thoreau Way, Sudbury, MA 01776, >> USA. +1.978.776.9498 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1499 - Release Date: 12/06/2008 7:13 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/3ff08207/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 21:35:51 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:35:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles In-Reply-To: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> <4851D9AC.4050109@gninc.ca> References: <485110BE.3030603@gninc.ca> <4851D9AC.4050109@gninc.ca> Message-ID: How terrific that Joe called you, Cornie!!!! I'm so happy he did. I know y'all had a wonderful time in the L-RD together through that phone call! ~ Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles Pat, I talked with Joe, or he called me tonight, it is such a pleasure to hear from you all thank you. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: FABULOUS, CORNIE!!!!! THANK YOU!!!! ~ Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 8:04 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - 2 new articles Isn't this beautiful! Moshiach is coming! I was on this very spot in which this 5 minute video is taking place where Rabbi Lazer Brodi is speaking, that was in 2003 with an exceptional tour, that required an armed guard, who was one of us at that time. Baruch HaShem Cornie FeedBlitz wrote: Here are the latest updates for correim at gninc.ca "Lazer Beams" - 2 new articles 1.. Moshiach is Coming 2.. Israel's Blessing 3.. More Recent Articles 4.. Search Lazer Beams Moshiach is Coming We delight in bringing you the good news. Everything that looks bad is really good, because it's all part of the pre-Moshiach scenario. The Beams is now about to take you on pictorial tour of our exquisitely gorgeous holy Land of Israel, with the added treat of a brand new Yosef Karduner song, "Moshiach Yavo" (Moshiach will Come) in the background. The song was written by Rabbi Baruch Klein, and his son Yaakov Shalom accompanies Yosef, with Yosef's two sons Moshe Nachman and Shimon Natan singing in the background. Yosef's new CD album Mikdash Melech is his best ever, and now available on line from here at the Beams (see the toolbar at right). ? Email to a friend ? Article Search ? Related ? ? Israel's Blessing The following 5-minute clip was filmed last week on Mount Gerizim, overlooking the holy gravesite of Yosef HaTzaddik in Shechem. ? Email to a friend ? Related ? ? More Recent Articles a.. Reinforcements b.. Shavuot at BreslovWorld c.. Today You Are a Nation d.. Gideon's Courage e.. Emuna News Profile: The Rise of Raed Salah ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Click here to safely unsubscribe now from "Lazer Beams" or change subscription settings ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsubscribe from all current and future newsletters powered by FeedBlitz ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your requested content delivery powered by FeedBlitz, LLC, 9 Thoreau Way, Sudbury, MA 01776, USA. +1.978.776.9498 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 11/06/2008 8:32 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1499 - Release Date: 12/06/2008 7:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/5c19ee06/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/5c19ee06/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/5c19ee06/attachment-0001.obj From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:51:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:51:12 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Humility = Low Self Esteem? Message-ID: SPARKS by Rabbi David Aaron, Founder and Dean of Isralight (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6wiIJe_4THiSzrudqyKCSWSBQAIgr2oe1W3bkVOFmCJ48P31cfmVRAPBmuIhXa yNytfphj8ShVddZtzVGGGY2APMYu_glH_LVNqA5Ou-Woucg==) Isn't Humility Just Low Self-Esteem? (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6zpanCDhbwwcWXLWgXdW-zJL187RnA_t4xqDUZ-Zr2FLs8AUz15F84GnMuIKos4fSS6I_Uhhf50-mkZh fkqKZ3uhDqU3qAN_5QRhJt0o9HwVgS-ndK5Aat2o3D0M9Xxp1Lh-grb3qE7tCFxJ4em7cYK7lzydg2 JPS0=) "Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth." (Numbers 12:3) Was Moses, indeed, humble? The man who courageously challenged the mighty Pharaoh the King of Egypt, who led an entire people out of slavery, the man who after seeing the golden calf smashed the very tablets written by the finger of G-d. Judaism teaches that no character trait is absolutely negative, everything has a role. All we have to do is look at each trait with an open mind and determine its pluses and the minuses. When it comes to pride there is an aspect of it that comes from the godly grandeur of our soul and is therefore, truly humbleness and the source of powerful sacred self esteem. But there is an aspect of pride that comes from our ego which is haughtiness and self destructive; alienating us from our true inner self. This type of pride focuses on petty concerns and social status; it embodies a desire for honor and one- upmanship. This type of pride confuses us to think that as an individual we stand independent and apart from the greater community. However, according to Jewish mysticism our individual soul is really an aspect of the collective soul of the community. An individual is not an isolated being floating in outer space; disconnected from a greater context. Rather an individual is actually an individualistic expression of the national soul of his people. We find personal meaning and fulfillment only to the extent that we daily serve in our own unique way the betterment of our community and ultimately the world. I think this is one of the common epiphanies for Jews when they visit Israel -- their destined homeland. I recall the first time I toured the borders of Israel and heard heroic stories about young Israel soldiers who valiantly defended their country from invading enemies and sacrificed their lives for the Jewish People. These selfless soldiers gave up their individual life so that their nation could live on. I wondered-- Is there such a reality called national life? Does a nation have a collective soul that encompasses our individual souls? Jewish mysticism teaches that a nation is not simply the sum total of many individuals. Rather the nation is a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. In fact, each soul is actually an individual expression of the whole nation born out of the collective soul of the nation. Therefore, even though each of us is an individual we are personally meaningful only because we are members of the national soul; shareholders in its national destiny. Jewish mysticism also teaches that the national soul is a unique expression of the Universal soul which is G-d. Therefore, an individual soul is also an individualistic expression of the Universal soul-G-d. This is the deeper meaning of the belief that each of us is created in the image of G-d. Each of us is a unique expression and manifestation of G-d. G-d becomes manifest through the unique vantage points of every nation and every individual soul. Therefore there is no such thing as an individual soul that exists separate and independent of its nation's soul and the Universal Soul--G-d. Self-actualization is generally understood to mean that I actualize myself; I take care of myself, become fully me, use my talents to their utmost and succeed in my evolution towards individuality. My personal fulfillment does not necessarily have anything to do with anybody else. This definition of self- actualization does not require any national responsibility or commitment to G-d. But in truth there is no such thing as an individual soul existing independent and apart from the collective national soul or the collective universal soul. Therefore, true self-actualization can only be accomplished when it is concerned with facilitating the actualization of my nation's destiny, helping to improve the world and serving to fulfill G-d's purpose. For example, if I, David Aaron, perceive myself as an independent entity; existing apart and separate of the Jewish people, Humanity and G-d then I am actually alienating myself from my true self. Since my true self is an individual expression of the collective soul of the Jewish People, the world and G-d then when I neglect the needs of my people, the needs of the world and the will of G-d-- I neglect myself. If I really care about myself, then I would really care about my people, humanity and G-d. Therefore, selflessly and powerfully serving your people, the humanity and G-d is the only true way to self actualization. To be selfless is truly selfish and to be selfish is to lose your self. We need to probe our inner psyche and determine whether the prideful thoughts and feelings we have about ourselves are coming from our ego or from our soul. If they are coming from the ego then they are haughty and self destructive-- alienating us from our true self as it interfaces with our national self, international self and the ultimate self-G-d. But when these prideful feelings come from our soul then they are an expression of true humbleness; powerful assertions of who we are really are. They verify our connection to the collective soul of our people, the world and the universal soul-G-d. These apparently prideful feelings are actually humble confirmation that our spiritual self is an expression of the power and beauty of our people, the world and G-d. A spiritually healthy person intuits that s/he is radiant, powerful, significant and great. If a person does not deeply intuit this then s/he has become disconnected from G- d. Since the soul is an aspect and expression of G-d how can we think of ourselves as anything less than awesome. When people are spiritually healthy they intuit their godly greatness and are driven to do great acts for their community, the world and G-d. Sometimes people take the wind out of their own sails and undermine the good that they could do by questioning the sincerity of their intentions, thinking 'Hmm, look at me, who do I think I am, how egotistical of me to think this way about myself. To be humble I should step out of the spotlight; I should hide myself in a corner.' Not only is there nothing wrong with confidently acknowledging our talents and strengths, but on the contrary there is something very wrong when we don't acknowledge our talents and strength. If, for example, you have a talent for public speaking, then realize that your 'gift of gab' is a gift from G-d and you have a responsibility to humanity and G-d to use it. If you don't use your G-d given talents then you are an ingrate. In fact, not using your talents is a sign that you actually think they are yours and not G-d's. This attitude is actually a very subtle form of ego and haughtiness. You need to understand the difference between the ego which separates you from G-d and the truth sense of mission and grandeur which places you in humble serve of G-d. G-d may want to reveal His wisdom, creativity, kindness, justice, compassion, peace, beauty through you and improve the world. Your drive and determination may be the grandeur of G-d that is seeking to become manifest in the world through you. So let your soul shine! Rabbi David Aaron Author of Endless Light, Seeing G-d, The Secret Life of G-d, Inviting G-d In and Living A Joyous Life _For more of Rabbi Aaron's Sparks, click here. _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6wvXd7Glr7hdtTLiG4SgeA3mgFwpb1Ee8Iz5RaPi1N3FWO-gXzSE7RmW4kvwxgDdGNlit _Lf90g1BsNPMP_ecB1Qjo7IBapLlDlyLm77E9aKZKt56GvyRc-XiCtDUr7gKXnx-ZeULsHyG5kLTEt MJas) _Back to top_ (mip://06814e48/default.html#topofpage) **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/5cbf116b/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:54:18 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:54:18 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A D'var Torah from Rav Binny Message-ID: Portion of Beha'alotecha _Click here_ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6xmLekVD4biWsa2AEyyaPTBhrFbqTryGz2srHZGxwSj-PRi1ZttKEfdEvOPNa19PgfG_XT0WTea-ZSJoL1oSxbWtw41tQ9b26cdhJEOQT xcz74tx3_9zGLlaTQPXS2cjYg=) to hear/download Rav Binny's recorded dvar Torah on Parashat Beha'alotecha. Podcast now available! (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6x9vS9hTcbR6rh-vNBYwmhphAZz1E-3v4VXcwrPDbOpTP1es5Dwn3vYrqHS3V02p4vtkBQajxUqnmMICPXmO3UtGkzvs4SaCe4H1_3HDSNSj7NlHxMp8jV W42qCRoYuswF52Xzq-QVK2BMLIajEMYHkRf6OrdZEXmY=) A number of years ago, I received a story from the front lines in Jenin. Some stories are a mitzvah to tell and retell... During the fierce fighting in Jenin, Israel's Commander in Chief, General Shaul Mofaz came to inspect the fighting forces in the area. While briefing the commanders and officers, he noticed that one of his Major Generals, Avraham Gutman, had a long rip on his army shirt. When asked about the tear, Gutman told him that his mother had passed away the day before and that he had just come from the funeral. A traditional Jew committed to halachah, Gutman was fulfilling the ancient Jewish obligation of tearing of one's garment at the loss of a loved one. General Mofaz immediately ordered him to leave the command post and return home to sit Shiva for his mother. Avraham refused his Commander in Chief and told the following story: Upon hearing that his old unit had been called up for "Operation Defensive Shield", he had volunteered, and within days found himself in the thick of the fighting in Jenin. In the midst of the second day of the battle, whilst in conference with his Regional Commander, Eyal Shlein, his cell phone rang. He saw that the caller was his 92-year-old mother. He wondered what could possibly be so urgent, as his family knew not to call him while he was in the army. His mother said, " I have two things to tell you. The first is that as a commander in the field you have a responsibility to bring your soldiers back home, safe and sound." Then she said: "Remember Avraham, you are my revenge against the Nazis." With that she hung up. Several hours later she had passed away and Avraham arrived at the funeral. The family had gathered to bring to rest this strong willed woman who had survived the Holocaust and had built a family of proud, faithful Jews. Everyone was relieved to see Avraham back safe and sound, noticing a quiet determination about him, which they assumed must be due to a mixture of grief and battle fatigue. They could not anticipate the decision that Avraham was about to make. "I am returning to battle. I have no choice. This was my mother's last request!" he said as soon as the burial was complete, and promptly left to return to the field. Major General Avraham Gutman is 44 years old and really did not have to participate in the battles of this war. But there are moments in this world when we are given the opportunity to become partners in destiny. In that moment, Avraham Gutman tapped in to four thousand years of Jewish history, and like hundreds of generations before him, answered the call. This week's portion, Beha'alotcha, begins with a brief discussion of the lighting of the menorah in the sanctuary. "Vayedaber Hashem El Moshe Lemor: Daber El Aharon Ve'Amarta Elav, Beha'alotcha Et HaNerot, El Mul Penei HaMenorah, Yairu Shivat HaNerot." And G-d spoke to Moshe saying: Speak to Aaron and tell him: When you light the candles (of the menorah, in the sanctuary), the seven candles should give light opposite the menorah." (Numbers 8:1-2) One wonders what the menorah is doing here, immediately following the sacrifices of the Tribal princes marking the dedication of the tabernacle (Mishkan)? The great medieval commentator, Rashi, bothered by this juxtaposition, offers a fascinating response: "Why was the section describing the lighting of the menorah placed adjacent to the section of the tribal princes? Because when Aaron saw the dedication ceremony of the tribal princes, "chalshah az da'ato", he became weakened (or felt faint) because he was not included amongst them in the dedication ceremony, neither he nor his tribe. So G-d said to him: 'your life is greater than theirs, for you light and prepare the candles (of the menorah)." (Numbers 8:2) This is a strange response, to say the least. There are any number of possible reasons one could suggest for the menorah's placement at this point. Most obvious, is the idea that immediately after the Mishkan is dedicated, the first mitzvah which Aaron, the new high priest (and through him the Jewish people) will begin to fulfill is the lighting of the menorah. Because the entire point of having a Mishkan (tabernacle), not to mention the mission of the Jewish people, is to spread light, and indeed to be a light. So why does Rashi offer this complicated and difficult response? Further, a closer examination of Rashi's text is even more challenging. What was Aaron struggling with? The implication is that he saw all the other princes involved in the dedication of the Mishkan, and was deeply upset, perhaps even jealous, at the fact that neither he nor any representative of his tribe, Levi, was invited to participate. But why would Aaron be upset over missing one opportunity to sacrifice, when the very ceremony being celebrated also represented his initiation as the first High Priest in Jewish history? Indeed, to Aaron and his descendants was given the privilege of all the sacrifices in the Temple, forever! Could Aaron have possibly been so shortsighted as to be upset over his exclusion? And if Aaron was really so upset as to require a response from G-d himself, isn't there a much better example of why Aaron need not feel left out? On the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur, in the holiest place in the Temple (the holy of holies), it is the high priest who offers the sacrifice that is meant to bring atonement for the entire Jewish people. Why isn't this answer given to Aaron to appease him at the fact that he was not part of the dedication ceremony? Even more challenging is how Aaron, held up as a role model for human behavior, could actually be jealous because he wasn't included in the dedication ceremony? One would have expected Aaron to feel joy over his fellow Jews' experience in dedicating the Tabernacle he would now serve in; how could Aaron actually be upset to the point that he actually became 'weak'? Indeed, the character of Aaron is described in the Mishnah, in Ethics of the Fathers which exhorts us to: "Be of the students of Aaron, who loves peace, pursues peace, loves all living (created) things, and brings them close to Torah." (Pirkei Avot 1:12) And it is worth noting the response G-d gives to Aaron in this Rashi: "Your life is greater than theirs, for you light and prepare the candles (of the menorah)." What does this mean, that your life is greater? How can one person's life be greater than another's? And why is this great service described as "lighting and preparing the menorah"? In the first place, the order is backwards. It should have said preparing and lighting the menorah. After all, first one prepares the wicks, and only after the menorah is prepared and ready to be lit, does the actual lighting take place. So what is really going on here? Perhaps the key to all this is in understanding the nature of Aaron's character, in the context of the mitzvah to light the menorah. Aaron is the lover of peace and all living things. Shalom, the Hebrew word for peace is also one of the names for G-d. (In fact, this is why technically one does not say Shalom to someone in the bathroom, as that is one of the traditional names of G-d.) It comes from the root Shalem, which means complete, or whole. The path to true peace is the realization that in the end, we are all really one. If we were all really able to tap in to the idea that we are all bound up with one another, all a part of one another, then how could we ever be at war with each other? It would be as absurd as an argument between my right and left legs concerning which direction we should all walk. If a person's two legs are headed in different directions, he will only end up in a wheelchair. Only when both legs work together can a person get anywhere. And this is the reality we so often miss in the world. The idea of war is absurd, because everything we want and are sadly willing to fight for, we can only really achieve when we work together. This is the true meaning of shalom. The Midrash (rabbinic legend) relates that whenever Aaron would see two people fighting, he would take it upon himself to whisper in each fellow's ear: 'you know he (the other person you are arguing with...) really wants to make peace with you, but he told me he is too embarrassed....' And inevitably, each one, believing it was really the other who had initiated the rapprochement', would initiate a dialogue that led to peace and harmony. What would possess Aaron to go out of his way to achieve conciliation amongst his fellow man? Only the realization that as long as any one is at war, we are all at war. Perhaps Aaron, seeing the separate sacrifices of each of the princes, struggled, because as long as one of the tribes was not included, the picture was not complete; was not shalem. How could a Mishkan (Tabernacle), meant to represent the entire Jewish people, be ready, when one of the tribes, even the tribe of Levi, who were meant to serve as the representatives of the entire Jewish people, was not included? Indeed, the language Rashi chooses is fascinating: "chalshah az da'ato", "he became weakened". If Aaron believed his entire purpose in life was to be a vehicle for harmony in all of creation, perhaps this dedication, with each of the tribes offering separate sacrifices was in his mind, a challenge to his very purpose. One wonders if Aaron at this point was asking himself what his entire life has been about. Recall that it was Aaron who was the vehicle for the sin of the golden calf, when the divisiveness amongst the Jewish people caused our greatest tragedy. So if the resulting life mission, to attempt to heal that rift, was really a mistake, Aaron must be left struggling with what the point of it all really is. Ever wonder why some people can churn out seemingly incredible amounts of energy with nearly no sleep and little food, while others come home from the simplest 9 to 5 jobs completely exhausted? What gives us energy in this world is not really what we eat, but rather why we eat. Victor Frankl, a holocaust survivor who developed an entire system of therapy called logo therapy, in his Man's Search for Meaning, describes how men could lose the will to live in the camps and simply wilt away in front of you. His conclusion from all of his experiences was that what ultimately gives us strength in life is our sense of purpose, and mission. Conversely, when we feel we have no purpose, no real reason for being, we become exhausted. A person who believes in what he is doing, can work for hours on end to achieve his goals. But if you're stuck in a 9 to 5 job you neither believe in nor care about, you are exhausted from the moment you get to work... Perhaps this is what Rashi's words are alluding to in describing Aaron as weakened. Maybe Aaron was struggling with his sense of purpose. If the goal is for all of us to be together and become one, then why are we offering up all these separate sacrifices? Indeed, the Torah at the end of last week's portion, Naso, makes a point of repeating each Prince's sacrifice, even though they were identical, as if to stress that each tribe is somehow separate... All of which leaves Aaron wondering whether his entire reason for being has really been a lie? And this is such a crucial point. Each one of us has a mission, a purpose on this earth. And our ability to recognize that fact in every human being, and indeed in all of creation, is the secret to the peace or wholeness we are all longing for. One wonders then, why in fact Aaron was not included in that dedication? Perhaps there are really two ideas at play here. Perhaps the tribes (as we shall see in the portion of Matot, please G-d...) were meant to represent the idea that in order to create a harmony of the many as one, we first need to respect the gifts every one brings as an individual. The tribal sacrifices represent the idea that G-d gives us all different gifts. And we need to respect and see beauty in the fact that we are all so different. So often, people make the mistake of assuming that in order to achieve unity we all need to conform to the same perspective. Judaism, in allowing for the existence of different tribes, makes the statement that it is only by respecting each other's differences and otherness, that we can create true unity or togetherness. And this is the secret of the menorah. The Torah actually makes the point of saying that all the flames of the menorah face the center. El Mul Penei HaMenorah, Yairu Shivat HaNerot." "When you light the candles , the seven candles should give light opposite the menorah." Tradition (quoted by Rashi) explains this as a miracle, that the flames all leaned towards the center wick, in order to demonstrate that the menorah was not burning because G-d needed light, but rather we as a people are here only in order to give light. The message of the menorah is all about purpose; our purpose as a people: to be a light unto the nations, and to be a shining example (not by creed, but rather by deed) of what a nation can be. And the fact that there are seven flames, as opposed to one fire, and yet that that these flames all faced the one central flame, may well represent the idea that we need to achieve one-ness through appreciating otherness. One wonders as well, whether Aaron, a prophet, had a sense of what was coming from these Princes (the Nesi'im). If ever there was an instance of individuals who had an incredible opportunity to rise to their purpose here on this earth, and through so doing change the course of destiny, it was these Nesi'im. For these are the same tribal princes who, in a few weeks, will be sent as spies into the land on that infamous mission resulting in disaster for the Jewish people. If ever there was an instance of not achieving and rising to the purpose for which they were here, it was these princes and their sin of the ten spies. We, each of us, have a light that burns deep within us. Our challenge is in whether we succeed in uncovering that light and sharing it with the world around us. Maybe this is why G-d makes a point of elevating the task of preparing the candles, because this really is why we are here. If every person is really his or her own candle, perhaps the greatest thing I can do in this world, is to be a vehicle for preparing someone else to light his or her own candle. But the decision to actually light them is up to each one of us, from ourselves, and for ourselves. (In fact, it is interesting to note that Maimonides rules in his Laws of the Beit HaMikdash (chap. 9, based on the Talmud in Yoma 24b), that even a non-priest could light the menorah, but only a priest was allowed to prepare the menorah....) Ultimately, every human being has the potential to be a living menorah in the world around him. Just a few years ago, Major General Avraham Gutman demonstrated what a living menorah a person can be. But even more important, in so doing, he prepared us all for the possibility of achieving the same thing, each in our own way. May Hashem bless us all to bring forth light into a world struggling with much darkness. And may we truly be worthy to be students of Aaron in every sense of the word: Lovers of peace and all of creation, and vehicles for spreading that light, the light of four thousand years of heritage, to all who wish to enjoy it. Shabbat Shalom, Binny Freedman _For more of Rav Binny's Tastings of Torah, click here. _ (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001HNoAujHBF6zwcW5DziRTTvpqzoIs56_DnV7LeAFbA6Rq43JvssWb6VVNIYmt5-0iWcKCC X_LEGuFbPqzWICa22eHXjMpXwamwinCFQQ-mBhWCH0lWcav4JOOSBSaRDjwX90Bec-KVgt9ryQHiVU -KPeM8nJw4b47) **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080612/51a9dec4/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 22:18:02 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:18:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Final Frontier Message-ID: <516d73340806122018k5c7585b1sc9618a942ea96f7a@mail.gmail.com> G'day Hanoch, And here I was, thinking that HaShem and Allah were one and the same. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/b862b318/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Jun 12 23:50:26 2008 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:50:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Final Frontier In-Reply-To: <516d73340806122018k5c7585b1sc9618a942ea96f7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340806122018k5c7585b1sc9618a942ea96f7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015a01c8cd11$01eda9f0$05c8fdd0$@com> Hi Brian, Well, there is only one God, despite His being called by different names. The strange thing about names and meanings - YHWH is a compound or form of the verb "to be" and has a very powerful meaning: "has caused, is causing and will cause Existence", whereas Allah means "went up". HaShem means "The Name". Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Brian McFarlane Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Final Frontier G'day Hanoch, And here I was, thinking that HaShem and Allah were one and the same. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/e770d3f8/attachment.html From smathe at dslextreme.com Fri Jun 13 02:27:50 2008 From: smathe at dslextreme.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:27:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Our "constant" tasks NOW ! Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/f59c9d2e/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jun 13 02:29:18 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:29:18 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Our "constant" tasks NOW ! Message-ID: <200806130729.m5D7TD3n017359@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/e1c68f1c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Jun 13 03:53:54 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:53:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM Message-ID: <485235A2.50908@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/7c7da9f3/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 13 04:50:26 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM Message-ID: <565376.4430.qm@web82504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thank you, Joe, for sending this amazing video clip,which brought me to tears. Shabbat Shalom to you and all your friends down under?and everyone else on the list. Kind regards, Helen ----- Original Message ---- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 4:53:54 AM Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM Shalom Chaverim, ?????????????????????????? my apologies for my silence. I have had a very taxing week at work putting out many bushfires. After the Shabbat rest I will post. In the meantime please glorify HaShem as our creator by resting in Him this coming day. I will definitely? entrust my spirit into His trusting arms. We are having a Shabbat meal tonight at our Yisraeli friends house. Shabbat Shalom Your Achi Joe. http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.com/2007/06/shema-israel-hashem-echad.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/d1925b2b/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 05:25:56 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:25:56 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Final Frontier Message-ID: <516d73340806130325w54382d1bk7f8b0f7acf2a195@mail.gmail.com> G'day Patty, And here I was thinking that Allah meant "the one and only God." Ah well, we live and learn. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/665121a6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 07:12:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:12:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM Message-ID: Shalom Joe, Great to hear from you, mate! :-) Sorry that work has kept you so busy, I was hoping you were snorkeling on the Great Barrier Reef, or something! Hey man, that is one AMAZING video! I've watched it three times already, and I've got goose bumps every time. Yeah, these ARE THE DAYS...."Lost Judah" is coming home, too.....hey - can I have your permission to pass around this site? Have a Shabbat Shalom Joe - one filled with physical, emotional and spiritual rejuvenation! Take care!! B'Ahava Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/4a6568a5/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 07:31:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:31:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] One amazing D'var Torah Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, Here is another D'var Torah from a site that I've sent to you from previously. I tracked the writer down, his name is Zion Nefesh, and is an Israeli, living in Brooklyn; he just writes the Divrei Torah, and doesn't actually have anything to do with the other websites listed. He's not a Rabbi, and when I asked him 'why' he has begun to include ALL of Israel, including Ephraim, he simply answered, "he just thought it was the right thing to do...." Another "coincidence," huh? See the section that I have highlighted in red and BOLD. Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch To subscribe to this Deep Bible Commentary list: _http://nehora.com/subscribe.cfm_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=WF8gC.e8f52L.AsrOrgAhw) _Previous Bible Commentaries_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=kxqFhLpFvtfZmP61w_RfrA) Dear Hanoch, Beha'alotcha - The gate of Mashiach. This article may be somewhat cryptic to many people. I pray that you will understand some of it but in any case, the fact that you read this article will connect your soul to that place which I am revealing here. Zohar Beha'alotcha talks about two Messiahs, Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Efraim. The first is the right column and the sefirot of Chokmah, Chessed and Netzach, The second is Left column and sefirot of Binah, Gevurah and Hod. Moshe is sefirat Da'at (knowledge), (a sefirat that appears when Chokmah and Binah are connected). The Zohar tells that Moshe (named in the Zohar as Raya Meheimnah, which is Aramaic for "the Faithful shepherd"), holds both columns and all aspects of the middle column (Keter, Da'at, Teferet and Yesod) are connected to him. There are two special verses in Beha'alotcha, (Numbers 10:35-36) that are separated from the other parts of the Torah by two reversed and upside down "?" letters. Most kabbalists consider those two verses as a separate book in the Torah. This makes the Torah have seven books altogether. The first verse has 12 words, like the last verse of the Torah and the second verse has 7 words like the first verse of the Torah. There is a cross hold. The first verse has the word "?????" numerical value 71 but the Torah reader is instructed to read it as "?????", numerical value of 72. The pronunciation is exactly the same but the energy revealed is totally different. The beginning and end are tied together here. We can see the two hands holding the Torah together. The two letters of "Nun" are like walls. From one side of the two verses we see the right column, the presence of the light of the Creator (numbers 10:34) and the other side in the beginning of a new chapter, the nation with their complaints, their selfish desires and death (Numbers 11:1). Within every 72 hours, we need to read from the Torah. This happens on Monday, Thursday, Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon. Before the reading of the Torah, a special process is taken place. A person goes to the Ark (where the Torah scroll is placed), hold the doors or curtain with both hands and open. At this point, the congregation begins to recite the first of the two special verses. ??????? ????????? ???????, ????????? ??????: ?????? ??????, ????????? ?????????, ????????? ????????????, ?????????? Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you." The Scroll is taken out for reading. After the reading, the Ark is opened again and the Torah is put back to its place. This time we recite the second special verse. "?????????, ??????: ??????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ??????????" Whenever it came to rest, he said, "Return, LORD, to the countless thousands of Israel." And add a verse from the end of Lamentation, 5:21. "??????????? ?????? ??????? ????? (???????????), ??????? ???????? ????????" Restore us to yourself, LORD, that we may return; renew our days as of old When we check the first letter of the name of all the sefirot we get the numerical value of 546 which is exactly "?????" 541+5 (1 for each letter of the word "?????"). The last three words of the Torah are "???????? ????-??????????" "in the sight of all Israel". The first letter of the three words spelled "???" (vessel). The last letters "???" numerical value 70. The vessel is the two verses in Numbers 10:35-36. The light is what is concealed inside the seven books of the Torah. When all Israel (all 12 tribes) comes together as one and connect to the Torah, Mashiach will be revealed (??????). The two special (reversed) Nuns (? ) will drop and the Light of the Holy Ark will spread throughout the whole seven books of the Torah. The 19 (12+7) words will tie together the beginning and end of the Torah, closing the circle and flood existence with the light that awaits us from the day of creation. Let us pray that this day is coming today, Amen. Love and Blessings, Zion Nefesh Links: Jewish Books - _http://Nehora.com_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=0J83G5H3Q8D77hc1QHp2hw) Torah and Bible Commentaries- _http://www.RabbiShimon.com_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=gdy.6PT75i_ebLWWLSzGYQ) Spiritual eBooks: _http://wwwDivineCalendar.com_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=5WmRes4P80qR3a.Kl3p8eQ) You can also find the article on line. _Http://www.RabbiShimon.com_ (http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=AbBSa&m=1ZmBqEjwaIibsj&b=86KxIRrhr43ov38.qqul8A) ____________________________________ Share the Light..... Forward this email to a friend. ____________________________________ **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/6a2cbb2e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 08:21:19 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:21:19 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] See it NOW - before YOUTUBE removes it Message-ID: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDVaJXmCIjk_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDVaJXmCIjk) I am sure YouTube will remove it soon ... thus ... see and resend it. **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/002d2daa/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 15:07:10 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:07:10 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] 2,000 year old seeds from Masada Message-ID: Just another one of those "coincidences," I guess.... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch Date Tree Sprouts from 2000-Year-Old Seed Found on Masada 10 Sivan 5768, 13 June 08 07:34 by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) The desolate cliffs of Masada are disturbed by little other than the dry desert winds and a seldom sprinkle of winter rain ? the perfect place for a 2,000-year-old seed to wait out the millennia until an Israeli scientist could rescue and resuscitate it. Methuselah, as the 26-month-old plant has been named (after the oldest human being who ever lived), appears to be healthy, almost 4 feet tall, and growing strong, according to an update reported in the June 13 2008 issue of the journal Science. Famed archaeologist and former IDF Chief of Staff Yigal Yadin, who led the excavations at Masada, stored the pile of seeds he had found at Bar Ilan University, where they sat for another 40 years. In 2005, medical plant researcher Dr. Sarah Sallon came along, asked for, and received, five of the seeds. Two were sent for analysis to the University of Zurich for radio-carbon dating, as were the shell fragments that later clung to Methuselah's roots. The other three seeds were given to Elaine Solowey, a plant specialist at the Arava Institute of the Environment, who soaked them in warm water, fertilizer and hormones. Finally the seeds were planted on the holiday of Tu B'Shevat (Jewish Arbor Day) on January 19, 2005. Eight weeks later, Methuselah's first green shoot peeked through the soil. It was the only one to survive. The Radio-Carbon Laboratory estimated that the seeds were approximately 2,000 years old, an analysis that made sense; Masada was built 2,044 years ago and destroyed by the Romans approximately 100 years later.. The seeds were indeed most likely remnants of the fruit stored by the Jews who lived in the fortress, hoping to avoid the invaders who had destroyed Second Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The young date palm is a sprout of an ancient Judean variety that was believed to be extinct for thousands of years. The Dead Sea region, where Masada is located, and the Jordan River Valley which extends to the Sea of Galilee, were once a lush forest of such date palms. The large, sweet fruit was famous throughout the civilized world both for its distinctive flavor as well as for its medicinal properties, which are mentioned in the Bible. Today, however, Israel's date palms are of imported stock. Researchers say it is still not clear whether the sprout is a male or female ? but if it's a "girl", the research team led by Sallon at the Louis L. Borick Natural Medicine Research Center, part of the Hadassah medical organization, says "she" could bear fruit as early as 2010. **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/9d1528e3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 13 15:13:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:13:12 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Our "constant" tasks NOW ! Message-ID: Count me in... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/33dc52d9/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jun 13 16:21:01 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:21:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 2,000 year old seeds from Masada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806132120.m5DLKvNM002438@mail202c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/a3f955dc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 21:55:36 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:55:36 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Our "constant" tasks NOW ! In-Reply-To: <200806130729.m5D7TD3n017359@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806130729.m5D7TD3n017359@mail207c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thank you so much for this encouraging word, Steve! Yes, we need to be CONSTANT in confessing our sins and requesting/seeking the two oils of SPIRIT AND TRUTH!!!! May we all be moved to keep up our reading aloud with great fervor the Confession Prayer, as we make T'shuvah and intercede on behalf of our brothers! May HaSHem pour out His Spirit upon us all!!! Shabbat Shalom, Avigail From: Steve Mathe Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 3:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Our "constant" tasks NOW ! Dear Friends, Am sure you will be reading the parsha section (on the annual cycle) this Shabbat. It behooves us to try to read it and its Haftara section beforehand, so we can pray and behave accordingly. Beha'Alotcha / When you kindle, Numbers 8-12, in ch. 11, when the Spirit that was on Moses, was also given to the 70 elders others, i.e. Eldad and Medad. Friends, you are on this list because you are all seeking the G-d Moses. Many, if not all of you have felt a calling to seek Him. As such, we need to, yes we NEED to..... ask the G-d of Moses, to enable us to come more earnestly under the influence of His Spirit, so we can be like Eldad and Medad. We need that empowerment to say and do what we need to say and do as His servants today. The associated Haftara, section, Zech 2:14-4:7, tells of the time HaShem shall dwell among us. That can happen, and needs to happen, and we need to MAKE it happen, with us NOW, if we are "the first contingent to be called from the Valley of Dry Bones." We have our individual tasks, and our collective tasks. One of the latter ones is to ask for forgiveness for our sins and the sins of our fathers. The Confession prayer is designed to help in that regard. We will need this, Guidance, as latter day Eldads and Medads if we are to follow our words with deeds. We get a hint of this in the Haftara, where we are told, that "not by armed might, or by strength, but by My Spirit," HaShem tells us to plan our "deeds" and actions on His behalf, in His Work. Please pray earnestly and aloud, the "Confession Prayer" and in our own words ask for the "quickening" Spirit we will all need. We will need our iniquity removed, if we are to do the intercessory function we read in the parsha and haftarah sections for this week. We can learn form Joshuah's example, who will be allowed to move among the angels, AFTER his sin is removed, i.e. be also a servant of HaShem. IF we will walk in HaShem's ways, (which we and our fathers have not done, and keep His charge, which we also have not done.. this our chance to do likewise, and we need to be CONSTANT in confessing our sins, and requesting and seeking the substance of the "two wittnesses," Sprit and Truth, we will need to be filled with these "oils" if we are to be servants of HaShem. Lets do it NOW! Steve PS. Please write these points down and place them on your prayer agendas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/d18bb7b1/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sat Jun 14 09:29:29 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:29:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Message-ID: Dear friends: I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph. In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go. But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three? According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings Thank you all for listening Clyde **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080614/cfc49108/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sat Jun 14 09:36:18 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 10:36:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for this exortation that we should stand in the gap for the USA, Clyde. Will certainly do so!!! Shabbat Shalom, Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread Dear friends: I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph. In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go. But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three? According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings Thank you all for listening Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080614/46158e08/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sat Jun 14 14:01:53 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:01:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Lazer Beams - Lazer's Story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485415A1.4060405@gninc.ca> This following article is about one of my dearest friend's , or one closest to my heart, although I have never met him except through e-mail, maybe many of you are well acquainted with Rabbi Lazer Brody, who opens his heart to Jew and none Jew alike, I have read his books and listened to many of his CD's. I count myself richly blessed through this Rabbi's work. Some times I wonder why I a more or less good for nothing, as I have often felt, out of such a wilderness of the goy, have been so richly privileged to be influenced by such angels of light? Is it HaShem's will to prove that out of nothing He can make something useful? Does He have a chore for me that I may not even be aware of yet. It does not matter, but it is overwhelming that even I have been able to get a taste of what Emunah really is. That is after all what really matters. Shalom to all. Cornie FeedBlitz wrote: > > > > Your email updates, powered by FeedBlitz > > > Here are the latest updates for *correim at gninc.ca* > > > *"Lazer Beams "* - 1 > new article > > 1. Lazer's Story <#40199_0> > 2. More Recent Articles <#40199_recap> > 3. Search Lazer Beams > > > *Lazer's Story > * > > For all the folks that want to hear how I became a Baal Teshuva, > here's Tovia Singer interviewing me on Israel National Radio two weeks > ago. /A big Beam blessing to Cookie from Alabama./ > > This week's Torah portion is Bamidbar. > The > Beams and Breslov World wish you a week full of smiles. > > > ? Email to a friend > > ? Related > > ? [Listen to this article] > > ? > > [Rate 'Lazer's Story'] > > > More Recent Articles > > * It Really Works > > * A Baby named Emuna > > * The Recoil Principle > > * The Decaying Paper Tiger > > * Is Jewish Nationalism Kosher? > > > > > > [Ads delivered by FeedBlitz] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > /Click here to safely unsubscribe now > > from "Lazer Beams" or change subscription settings > [This update is > powered by FeedBlitz, www.feedblitz.com] / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Unsubscribe from all current and future newsletters > > powered by FeedBlitz > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your requested content delivery powered by FeedBlitz > , LLC, 9 Thoreau Way, Sudbury, MA 01776, > USA. +1.978.776.9498 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 29/05/2008 7:27 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080614/bf664250/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jun 15 11:01:41 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01:41 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: Dear Friends: Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up by G-D Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? C;yde . . **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/18840106/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Sun Jun 15 11:30:46 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:30:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Obama confronts Lieberman Message-ID: <20080615163042.NRQB6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Clyde asked me to FW to the Dialogue group what I had just sent to him. This matter about Obama & Lieberman concerns the perspective that Clyde gave on the e-mail which just precedes this? _____ From: Gary Arvidson [mailto:arvidson at ctc.net] Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:20 PM To: Clyde Brown (cbrown4465 at aol.com); teesblues at msn.com (teesblues at msn.com) Subject: Barak confronts Lieberman Clyde & Teresa, Barak confronts Lieberman on Senate Floor HYPERLINK "http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2027438/posts"http://www.freerepub lic.com/focus/f-news/2027438/posts No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/91e700dd/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Sun Jun 15 11:38:50 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Photo: McCain & Liberman at Kotel Message-ID: <20080615163845.OLLO6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Clyde, I thought you might be interested in this attached picture of McCain & Lieberman together at the Wailing Wall (Kotel). Gary No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/9217be6a/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Sun Jun 15 11:41:59 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:41:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Missing Attachment: Photo: McCain & Libermanl Message-ID: <20080615164155.OKBT10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Clyde, I was in such a hurry, that I forgot to add the attachment with the photo. HYPERLINK "http://www.andybachman.com/?p=732"http://www.andybachman.com/?p=732 Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Gary Arvidson Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:39 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Photo: McCain & Liberman at Kotel Clyde, I thought you might be interested in this attached picture of McCain & Lieberman together at the Wailing Wall (Kotel). Gary No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/2c4fffa6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00028.txt Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/2c4fffa6/attachment.txt From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 12:12:46 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:12:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Missing Attachment: Photo: McCain & Libermanl In-Reply-To: <20080615164155.OKBT10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080615164155.OKBT10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: Thank you so much, Gary, for the article on O. and McCain, and for this photo at the Wall of McCain and Lieberman! ~ Pat From: Gary Arvidson Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Missing Attachment: Photo: McCain & Libermanl Clyde, I was in such a hurry, that I forgot to add the attachment with the photo. http://www.andybachman.com/?p=732 Gary -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Gary Arvidson Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:39 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Photo: McCain & Liberman at Kotel Clyde, I thought you might be interested in this attached picture of McCain & Lieberman together at the Wailing Wall (Kotel). Gary No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1502 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 7:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/86df363f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 12:14:19 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:14:19 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm with you, Clyde, in praying for McCain to win this country's 2008 Presidential election!!!! ~ Pat From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up by G-D Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? C;yde . . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/cf229947/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Sun Jun 15 12:14:59 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:14:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim References: Message-ID: <00a801c8cf0b$579e2130$0201a8c0@loyc30e02e1325> Clyde, Knowing what I know I am not very optimistic re: our/America's future. Yes, at this point I will go with McCain (son of Cain) who is only the lesser of the evils. I am praying that a truly righteous man will somehow come forth between now and Nov. Blessings to you and all! Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:01 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up by G-D Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? C;yde . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/10bacca0/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jun 15 13:43:14 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:43:14 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: Dear Loy, I'm taking the vitamins that helped your Mother. But I'm also depending upon your prayer of faith. As you can see, I'm writing in bold letters so hopefully I can catch my spelling errors. Sometimes G-D uses flawed ones to work his purpose and plan. I know because I am a flawed one, plucked out of the fire. I feel so strongly the times are near even at the door for our G-D and Father to bare His Holy invisible arm to fulfill those things until they are filled-full as He declared to his servants the prophets. The picture on the ground is not always what is seen from heaven. The all seeing and all knowing G-D can make things happen that appear impossible from the picture on the ground. I know you know this, so I'm only reminding you of what you know. Thank you and others for standing in the gap as we pray our way to a 10. I know that many do not believe that the USA at its core and its beginnings was, and is, Joseph in the stick of Ephraim. Many have done good research on this, not least of whom is Gary Arvidson my research partner and a man I love. I do not ask anyone to believe we are the nation of Ephraim as I do, and as Gary does. I only ask those who do not know or do not believe, to pray as though we are Ephraim. That way the result will be the same. Well I hope my spelling will come out a little better in the bold letters. Clyde **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/7838aac5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Loy" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:14:59 -0500 Size: 10162 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/7838aac5/attachment.mht From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 14:17:37 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9D339B109D1E-115C-B82@webmail-me18.sysops.aol.com> Hey Clyde - ??? I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes!? I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life.... ?? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ??????????? ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: ? Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place?his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself? Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? ?Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh?shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?? ? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up?by G-D? Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? ? C;yde?. ??. ? Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/897a0c13/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jun 15 14:38:42 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:38:42 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah both as family. Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do. Clyde **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/2f9df498/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Size: 9219 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/2f9df498/attachment.mht From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 15:34:57 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:34:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9D3E692C2E2C-C50-595B@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> Hey Clyde - ??? You are WAY TOO kind, my dear friend...I'm not so sure how much of a warrior I am, but in the end - but we've all got to do what we have to do....we don't get to choose our roles.... ??? Thanks for your support and encouragement Clyde, you are the best! ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought?to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between?one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah? both as family.?Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do. ? ? Clyde? Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Hey Clyde - ??? I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes!? I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life.... ?? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ??????????? ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: ? Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place?his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself? Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? ?Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh?shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?? ? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up?by G-D? Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? ? C;yde?. ??. ? Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/a69556d0/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 17:01:29 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: <8CA9D3E692C2E2C-C50-595B@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <271246.77834.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Hanoch,   You testified, in Charlotte, of your prayer at our mother Rachel's tomb and the vows you made before her on behalf of her children. I must go and do the same. I have a ticket to Israel that must be spent this year. Please pray for me in this. I would love to pray as one of the representatives of Ephraim there. I wish all of you could lay your hands upon me as, at least, one of the needed Ephraimites representatives before HaShem, needed to rectify the sin of J-e-r-o-b-o-a-m!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, you also mentioned an Emphraimite friendly host/hostess in Israel/Jerusalem? If you could forward that information to me, I would greatly appreciate it. And also, is there a website address to the foundation granted to you that we could access?    Love & Prayers,   Tracy In Cleveland, Tennessee --- On Sun, 6/15/08, youngbarzel at aol.com <youngbarzel at aol.com> wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com <youngbarzel at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:34 PM Hey Clyde -     You are WAY TOO kind, my dear friend...I'm not so sure how much of a warrior I am, but in the end - but we've all got to do what we have to do....we don't get to choose our roles....     Thanks for your support and encouragement Clyde, you are the best!                        Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah  both as family. Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do.     Clyde  Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Hey Clyde -     I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes!  I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life....    B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,                               Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends:   Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself  Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain?  Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?    Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up by G-D  Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you?   C;yde .   .   Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/481c649f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 17:26:14 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:26:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: <271246.77834.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CA9D4DF48B62B5-1174-231F@Webmail-mg14.sim.aol.com> Hi Tracy, ??? Wow...that's so great that you want to do that... I have all the info at home (still at work....it never ends), and will write it and send it as soon as I get home.? Take care, my friend... ??? Brachot V'Ahava, ????????? ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Hanoch, ? You testified, in Charlotte,?of your prayer at our mother Rachel's tomb and the vows you made before her on behalf of her children. I must go and do the same. I have a ticket to Israel that must be spent this year. Please pray for me in this. I would love to pray as one of the representatives of Ephraim there. I wish all of you could lay your hands upon me as, at least, one of the needed Ephraimites representatives before HaShem, needed to rectify the sin of J-e-r-o-b-o-a-m!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, you also mentioned an Emphraimite friendly?host/hostess in Israel/Jerusalem? If you could forward that information to me, I would greatly appreciate it. And also,?is there a website address to the foundation granted to you that we could access?? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy In Cleveland, Tennessee --- On Sun, 6/15/08, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:34 PM Hey Clyde - ??? You are WAY TOO kind, my dear friend...I'm not so sure how much of a warrior I am, but in the end - but we've all got to do what we have to do....we don't get to choose our roles.... ??? Thanks for your support and encouragement Clyde, you are the best! ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought?to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between?one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah? both as family.?Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do. ? ? Clyde? Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Hey Clyde - ??? I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes!? I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life.... ?? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ??????????? ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: ? Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place?his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself? Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? ?Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh?shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?? ? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up?by G-D? Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? ? C;yde?. ??. ? Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/c1558657/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jun 15 18:53:35 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:53:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Message-ID: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/61291d69/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 15 19:02:27 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: <276142.4394.qm@web82504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I can say Amen to Loy's comment. However our Heavenly Father is in charge, and may He give us all??? wisdom as we approach the November elections. Kind regards to all and may we seek Hasehem's guidance in the coming week. Shalom, Helen ----- Original Message ---- From: Loy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:14:59 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Clyde, Knowing what I know I am not very optimistic re: our/America's future.? Yes, at this point I will go with McCain (son of Cain) who is only the lesser of the evils.? I am praying that a truly righteous man will somehow come forth between now and Nov. Blessings to you and all!? Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:01 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: ? Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place?his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself? Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? ?Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh?shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?? ? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up?by G-D? Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? ? C;yde?. ??. ? ________________________________ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/649d1968/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 15 19:34:42 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: <268220.41247.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Tracy: Willl be praying for Hashem's blesssing on?your urgency to go to Israel to?pray at Rachel's tomb. Although we cannot physically lay hands?on you, please know prayers will be lifted?to Hashem for direction amd His anointimg on your?mission.?Rest in the assurance that if Hashem ititiates these thoughts and desires in our hearts and minds, ?He will bring them to pass. Shalom and kind regards, Helen ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:01:29 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Hanoch, ? You testified, in Charlotte,?of your prayer at our mother Rachel's tomb and the vows you made before her on behalf of her children. I must go and do the same. I have a ticket to Israel that must be spent this year. Please pray for me in this. I would love to pray as one of the representatives of Ephraim there. I wish all of you could lay your hands upon me as, at least, one of the needed Ephraimites representatives before HaShem, needed to rectify the sin of J-e-r-o-b-o-a-m!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, you also mentioned an Emphraimite friendly?host/hostess in Israel/Jerusalem? If you could forward that information to me, I would greatly appreciate it. And also,?is there a website address to the foundation granted to you that we could access?? ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy In Cleveland, Tennessee --- On Sun, 6/15/08, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:34 PM Hey Clyde - ??? You are WAY TOO kind, my dear friend...I'm not so sure how much of a warrior I am, but in the end - but we've all got to do what we have to do....we don't get to choose our roles.... ??? Thanks for your support and encouragement Clyde, you are the best! ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought?to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between?one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah? both as family.?Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do. ? ? Clyde? ________________________________ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From: youngbarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Hey Clyde - ??? I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes!? I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life.... ?? B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, ??????????? ????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: ? Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place?his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself? Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? ?Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh?shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies?? ? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up?by G-D? Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? ? C;yde?. ??. ? ________________________________ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ ________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/fa114e70/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 19:50:15 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <145783.65772.qm@web37504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Steve, Clyde and all;   I don't get a chance to comment much in this dialogue, as I am busy building a business and writing. However, when this topic came up, I felt within my spirit I must comment. Steve, you pretty well hit the nail on the head. My friends and kindred brothers/sisters, the election has already been decided by those in power. What we see is but a fasade to make people believe that we still have a choice. Let me ask...is anyone runing that you would choose? I rest my case! They have progressed in the last several years with great speed and without fear of being found out. In fact, just last weekend the Bilderburg group met in Washington D.C., and I haven't found out through my sources what was discussed, but it will be found out!   Satan, as their leader, has strengthened and emboldened them to the point where they don't care. George Herbert Walker Bush, a Skull & Bones member, and evil at heart, said it loud and clear back in the first Gulf War.... "We are about to begin a New World Order", and that my beloved, is where we are headed.   Don't get me wrong, YHWH is in control, and He has awesome plans for our [Israel/Judah] future, but we are entering into the period of Jacob's trouble. We as an Israelite nation have turned our backs [as a nation, not all individuals] on YHWH, and as our ancestors of old, we are a stiff-necked and hard hearted people, and YHWH will allow these things to come to pass as chastisement for our rebellion and disobedience.   However, just when Satan thinks he has won, that victory is his, YHWH will intervene, and the faithful will rise up! General George Washington, our first president, had a vision; the same one for 3 consecutive nights, and all of his vision has been fulfilled except for the last part of his vision. In his vision, this country will be brought to its knees, to the point where it all looks hopeless, and then, slowly, but with determination and inner strength, we will rise up, and begin to pray for our Heavenly Father to intervene for us, and He does and will!   There is no need to fear, for in Him we have all the strength and safety we need. The Scriptures never say we won't have to suffer and face persecution, but it does say that if we endure until the end, we will be saved!!! Our hope is not in man or his ideas, but in YHWH, Who will never leave us nor forsake us. One day soon, Yahshua will return as King of kings, Master of masters, and He will set up His Father's Kingdomn here, and our arch enemy will be bound for a 1000 years, yes a 1000 years!!! That, my broithers and sisters, is true peace on earth!   Even so Master Yahshua, come quickly! For His service,  Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote: From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 7:53 PM Dear Clyde and All, Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do.  The substance of your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are seeing the need.  From what is here already and what is coming up on the horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and from now on increasingly so. The presidential election is one, obviously.  There is no sure fire way to tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net us great curses.   No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast who will win.  It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do likewise.  In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes.  We are among "the first contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore it is our responsibility to do so. I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, not wanting to draw any attention to myself  in this regard. I have not found a way other than what is in the following lines.  Clyde, and several others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything we do.  Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path.  Recently several rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this.  I have sensed this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me.  Others have felt this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its confinement and has been set lose into the world.  Therefore, I am impelled to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5.  Right after that someone contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter.  "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight on it mouth has been let lose.  The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and "she" is out into the world. There are two illustrations that come to mind.  Illustrations are best to convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world.  The "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of them. They act as her "servants" setting the stage, for her emergence, by setting the basket on a base in the plains of Shinar, which is in Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of lesser stature who are also set loose.  The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie.  In it the three evil entities personify three evil forces.  The brute one is just that, a mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and creating mayhem.  We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an integral and most important entity.  She embodies the incredible, sometimes subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction.  There is nothing wrong with these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the right time.  Here we see these powers used the wrong way.  This movie character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah / basket."  In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional confinement.  As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, they head for the Earth. Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of the demonic.  True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every good development  of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, and has seduced many movements in time past.  She is the Great Harlot of the Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull out.  Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry around the world.  She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in her powers.  In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all restraints taken off her.  Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force."  This plan is underway and cannot be reversed, since "she is out."  All we can do is plead for mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her seductive influence.  Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically.   HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land.  This we can do NOW.  This is a Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the primary reason we have been resurrected  from the Valley of Dry Bones.  To underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12.  We are to "repair the breach."  This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another  PR is II Chron. 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do.  It is not just for me.  It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives.  If we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. 58:9).  May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work  of Elijah / Eli Y-h. If you have any responses to this, please let the list know.  I know this was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be.  If you have an ear, please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we need to know.  It is time. Steve   At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: Dear friends:   I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind.  This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other.   Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph.   In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go.   But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three?   According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings   Thank you all for listening   Clyde_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/98fd1a37/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 15 20:14:55 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:14:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: <268220.41247.qm@web82502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <061620080114.8447.4855BE8E000B4213000020FF22218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I want to echo that Tracy. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Helen Lusk : -------------- Dear Tracy: Willl be praying for Hashem's blesssing on your urgency to go to Israel to pray at Rachel's tomb. Although we cannot physically lay hands on you, please know prayers will be lifted to Hashem for direction amd His anointimg on your mission. Rest in the assurance that if Hashem ititiates these thoughts and desires in our hearts and minds, He will bring them to pass. Shalom and kind regards, Helen ----- Original Message ---- From: Tracy Osborne To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:01:29 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Hanoch, You testified, in Charlotte, of your prayer at our mother Rachel's tomb and the vows you made before her on behalf of her children. I must go and do the same. I have a ticket to Israel that must be spent this year. Please pray for me in this. I would love to pray as one of the representatives of Ephraim there. I wish all of you could lay your hands upon me as, at least, one of the needed Ephraimites representatives before HaShem, needed to rectify the sin of J-e-r-o-b-o-a-m!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, you also mentioned an Emphraimite friendly host/hostess in Israel/Jerusalem? If you could forward that information to me, I would greatly appreciate it. And also, is there a website address to the foundation granted to you that we could access? Love & Prayers, Tracy In Cleveland, Tennessee --- On Sun, 6/15/08, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: From: youngbarzel at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 3:34 PM Hey Clyde - You are WAY TOO kind, my dear friend...I'm not so sure how much of a warrior I am, but in the end - but we've all got to do what we have to do....we don't get to choose our roles.... Thanks for your support and encouragement Clyde, you are the best! Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Hanoch, my Pal and my brother, We may have been brought to this time for such an occasion? What can be as wonderful as a great love between one of Judah and the other of Ephraim? What could be even more wonderful, wonderful on top of wonderful, is when Judah accepts Ephraim, and Ephraim accepts Judah both as family. Hanoch you are a true warrior of and for the only true G-D of Israel. Man G-D must love you as I do. Clyde Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From:youngbarzel at aol.com To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Date:Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:17:37 -0400 Hey Clyde - I hope you know that I'm 'standing in the gap' along with you; now, and for as long as it takes! I've never prayed this hard, this consistently, in my whole life.... B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:01 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Friends: Do you know what the prople of this great land do not? Do you know you are living in the land of birthright blessings? Did Jacob place his right hand on Ephraim for nought? Do not birds of a feather flock together? Side by side an Israelite and a Jew visited Jerusalem. They stood at the wailing wall together. The Israelite said Israel has a right to defend herself Is there more than meets the eye between Joe Lieberman and John MC Cain? Did this nation become great by our own hands, or have we inherited the birthright of Ephraim? Has the grain really fallen to the ground never to be recovered? Manasssh shall be great but Ephraim will be greater. Well my friends has it happened that Manasseh was great but Ephraim has become greater? Can we discern the times? Are we in the times when Ephraim with Join with Judah and fly down upon his enemies? Can the prayer of the righteous ones prevail, those stranding in the gap? An Israelite that doesn't know he is an Israelite, and a Jew who knows who he is. As we watch the events play out by a stranger attempting to rise up over us, and an Israelite that does not he is, but his DNA is calling him forth Which way wail it go my friends, and can our prayers prevail? As Daniel knew .G-D seta up kings and removes them. At this time between 1 to 10, I am at 8 with John MC Cain being raised up by G-D Can we pray to a 10? I'm working at it, how about each of you? C;yde . . Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/4a734352/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 20:27:25 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:27:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] GO ROSS!!!! TORA! TORAH! TORAH!!!!!!! Message-ID: THANK YOU SO MUCH, ROSS NICHOLS, FOR THAT BEAUTIFUL TEACHING TONIGHT ON SUNDAY SHUL!!!!!! You are much appreciated for all you do to gather the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Brachot V'Ahava, Avigail/Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/ef928c4d/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jun 15 20:38:04 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:38:04 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: <271246.77834.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <8CA9D3E692C2E2C-C50-595B@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> <271246.77834.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806160137.m5G1bvRo009502@mail2505.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/e32f2e78/attachment.html From Tacticalmgt at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:15:22 2008 From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com (Tacticalmgt at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:15:22 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Message-ID: Congratulations, Steve, for summing up something that a lot of people feel, but cannot put into words. I second your feelings. First, I must introduce myself. Call me Jim, folks. I've known Steve for a while, and I came here at his invitation. I am new to the forum, and have read just a few posts, but judging from the content of the emails I have received already, I feel as if there are a lot of like minded people here, and a lot of very seriously committed people. I am very pleased to meet you folks, and hope that our time spent together will be fruitful for all of us. I am honored to meet every one of you. In the past, I had a tendency to sugar coat things. With the change of the times, I no longer feel this urge, because the times demand our actions, not our words any longer. I speak plainly now because of this. I apologize if I offend anyone by doing so. It is not my intent to do so. In reference to the heaviness of the spirit that is being felt, I can attest to this. In reference to standing in the gap, I can second that also. Let me add what I feel in my spirit, and what is weighing heavily on me. I hope I don't bore anyone with the length of this post. I feel that we are standing in the crux of a critical point in history folks. It's almost as if it's 1939 all over again ( even though I was not alive then) and we are faced with the choices of supporting a totalitarian movement which plans on committing large scale crimes against humanity, or we can stand with Israel, no matter what comes, no matter how unpopular it seems, and do the right thing. My choice is Israel, and doing the right thing. I will not knowingly support tyranny. I see a lot of the modern political movements, especially the UN and other similar bodies, display many distinctly totalitarian tendencies, and I dont want any part of them. No matter who gets elected President, we seem to be steaming headlong down the road of rebellion towards G-d as a nation. Since G-d is the only author of freedom, rebellion against G-d usually results in loss of freedom. The ones who thumb their noses at G-d and proclaim that they know it all and dont need G-d usually miss this important point, to the detriment of all the people of our nation. I only hope enough people seek the path of teshuvah, and soon, or we will all feel the results of this collective sin. ( remember: sin can be committed individually, collectively,or as a nation. ) Some of us in the Midwest are already feeling some of it, especially if we engage in agriculture or ranching. Flooding, storms, crazy weather...these are warnings to us that we must heed. Failure to do so will be catastrophic. The time for repentance is now. Besides the Presidential race, the US is at war on two fronts, and in a quasi war on many more. Economically, politically, religiously, demographically, to name some areas. Some nations are arrayed on the battlefield, and some are simply using proxies. Some are just using their clout to take a chunk out of our economy. Others are happy with politically undermining us. This war is just starting, too. There are a lot more chapters to be written. The actors who hate us are the same ones who hate Israel, which I find significant. A Russo-Persian Arab alliance, which seems to match up with the players in the Gog-Magog war described in the Bible. In reference to Eretz Yisrael, we are witnessing the classic run up to a well planned campaign of genocide by her hostile neighbors and their political allies. The combined effects of relentless propaganda campaigns, mean spirited western media smears, Arab blood libels, UN de-legitimization of Israel, overall moral equivalency, and the blatant military posturing of Israel's enemies ( known in military circles as battlefield shaping) is relentless. They all seem to have one goal: to complete the Holocaust that the Second World War failed to complete. This war will have to commence sometime soon. Until it does, we have some time to get ready for it. How much is unknown. There is one codicil I will add: this time, no Israelite or Jew will be safe, anywhere in the world. So we, as members of Judah or Israel, have a choice: to either work together for the Glory of G-d, or fail by our apathy, fear, lack of attention, or inaction. There is no time for religious division, strife, or even arguments . We must get in gear and take some action. We have to put aside differences in order to do things that must be done. And we have a short time to do it. The "Phony War" run up all our conflict and strife will not last forever. We have a limited amount of time, known only to G-d. A lot of people are waiting for the Messiah to come and rectify things, however, this does not relieve us of our duty to take individual initiative to stand up for what is right. We must feed the poor, take care of widows and orphans, and relieve the suffering of others. And we must do this for the sole purpose of glorifying G-d, not ourselves. In short; we are well past the time for words, we need actions. And we need them now. We also have to take advantage of the warning given to us by the Spirit ( ruach) and prepare to take care of ourselves, our families, and whoever we are responsible for. This includes Israelites, Jews, and any other member of the nation of Israel who needs help. Messianics, Nazarene, Karaite, Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform, Bnei Noach, or anyone else who identifies with Israel need to find a means of unity, and begin to set the path towards forming a network of support for the people who will be suffering in this upcoming time. In short, we need unity, not division. And we need it now. We cannot afford to be separate and hostile religious bodies anymore. We must become members of the nation of Israel, whether we live in the land or not, and we must seek to become brothers with each other. For the sake of common humanity, survival, and a common purpose, if nothing else. Thanks for hearing me out folks. **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/ab1c6f05/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:23:02 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:23:02 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Message-ID: Shalom Jim! Baruch Haba - Welcome! Glad to have you aboard; particularly at such a crucial time in the history of the Hebrew/Israelite people(s). The Russo/Persian/Arab alliance you mentioned is very, very real...and is the true 'axis of evil' in our time.... Steve's tefila (prayer) is one of the most extraordinary that I've ever seen, and I say it several times a day. Once again, welcome, and please feel free to jump in as much as you can! B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/4455494e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:36:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:36:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: Shalom Tracy, Patty's information is below; she's a good friend of mine, and please feel free to tell her that, "Hanoch sent you." :-) There is no website yet, connected with the Foundation I mentioned, but I can give you the people within Israel that you can contact. Also, you cannot simply 'go' to visit Kever Rachel (the Grave of our mother Rachel), you need a bullet proof bus (thanks to our 'partners in peace'), and a guide. Please contact Rabbi Simcha Hochbaum, the Director of Tourism for the Hebron Fund, who will arrange for a tour to Hevron, with a stop on the way, to Kever Rachel. His # in Israel is: 052-431-7257 (his cell), or the Hebron Tour Hotline (052-431-7055). Please also tell Rav Simcha that you are a very close friend of Hanoch...it actually works with some people :-) Patty Mitchel PO Box 29095 Jerusalem ISRAEL 91290 972 (0)52 324 3842 cell (if calling from the U.S.: 011-972-52-324-3842) 972 2 672 1610 May HaShem bless ALL that you do, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/5afbd85e/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:52:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:52:23 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, For those of you who listened to me speak at the UIWU Annual Meeting in Charlotte, you heard me make it clear that I wanted to dialogue with as many Ephramites as I possibly could. Having vowed at the grave of Rachel Imeinu (our mother Rachel), that I would do everything I could to bring all of her children HOME, I have just been presented, Baruch HaShem, with another opportunity to try to do just that. I have been invited to speak at the Saturday night session of the Annual Conference of the Messianic Israel Alliance, this August in St. Louis, Missouri. They are expecting between 1,000-1,500 people at this conference, and I hope, with G-d's help to bring my message of unity and dialogue to them; in addition to a program to increase Ephramite RETURN to the Land of Israel. The conference is between August 8-11, although I will be leaving on Sunday the 10th. In one of those great (non)coincidences of my life - I will be speaking on Tisha B'Av - the 9th Day of the month of Av, the date of the destruction of OUR Bet HaMikdash - Holy Temple. I can promise you only one thing - no one in that audience will ever forget what I will be sharing with them.... B'Ahavat Yehdua v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/38b118b5/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 21:53:39 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81660.53568.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks to you, Hanoch & Steve & Others, my Brothers in Judah, I feel sent!!   Therefore, within the blessing of Our Father, I will go with this prayer in hand. Those, who are led to do so, lay your hands and prayers upon me, and I will bring them before Our Father in the presence of our fathers and mothers. This is important!!! Surely, there are others from other quarters who are doing similar things. We, simply do what is set before us!   I dreamt last night of a Tornado (Whirlwind) approaching me. I was in a block building. I was trying to decide whether to run out the door or whether to stay still. There was no where to hide within the building I was in. However, the whirlwind passed passed and I was safe.   Later, in the day, as I was attempting to capture the heart of Joseph and Rachel in a song for my album, to deliver to Judah & Israel, I read at the end of Jeremiah 30 about the whirlwind. The time of Jacob's Trouble seems to be upon us. Stay steady in The House of Prayers that you make. The whirlwind will pass over. DON'T panic and run out from that House!!!   Love & Prayers,   Tracy --- On Sun, 6/15/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote: From: YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 9:36 PM Shalom Tracy,       Patty's information is below; she's a good friend of mine, and please feel free to tell her that, "Hanoch sent you."  :-)   There is no website yet, connected with the Foundation I mentioned, but I can give you the people within Israel that you can contact.        Also, you cannot simply 'go' to visit Kever Rachel (the Grave of our mother Rachel), you need a bullet proof bus (thanks to our 'partners in peace'), and a guide.  Please contact Rabbi Simcha Hochbaum, the Director of Tourism for the Hebron Fund, who will arrange for a tour to Hevron, with a stop on the way, to Kever Rachel.  His # in Israel is: 052-431-7257 (his cell), or the Hebron Tour Hotline (052-431-7055).  Please also tell Rav Simcha that you are a very close friend of Hanoch...it actually works with some people  :-)    Patty Mitchel PO Box 29095 Jerusalem ISRAEL   91290 972 (0)52 324 3842 cell   (if calling  from the U.S.: 011-972-52-324-3842) 972 2 672 1610                     May HaShem bless ALL that you do,                                 Hanoch Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/82c5c313/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:57:05 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:57:05 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Message-ID: Hey Tracy, Please let me know when you'll be going. My youngest daughter is making Aliyah (immigrating to Israel), with G-d's help, on September 7th. I am hoping to visit her later in the year and go on some job interviews. It would be great if we could go together. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, Hanoch **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/a391f837/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 22:13:19 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <763732.22163.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Wow, Thanks Hanoch for your generosity!!! I need you!!! We need you!!!    That would be such an honor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I will have this in my heart as I pray this week!!! I definitely could use your help and guidance --- Brother Clyde has it in his heart to go this year also. The possibilities.... Wow!!!   "Dear Heavenly Father, if it is according to your plans & purposes, direct our steps in this direction; I purpose to seek You and to listen this week to hear Your Blessed Voice"!!!!   Love & Prayers,   Tracy --- On Sun, 6/15/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote: From: YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 9:57 PM Hey Tracy,       Please let me know when you'll be going.  My youngest daughter is making Aliyah (immigrating to Israel), with G-d's help, on September 7th.  I am hoping to visit her later in the year and go on some job interviews.  It would be great if we could go together.        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,                 Hanoch Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/0d711045/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 15 22:41:50 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:41:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1108146505-1213588263-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-180810228-@bxe011.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Welcome Jim. I don't think anything you said was offensive. Please feel free to share your thoughts and experiences with us. I'm sure Steve has filled you in on our approach to dialogue. We simply ask that everyone respect each other. Thank you. Brachot v'Shalom John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:15:22 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Congratulations, Steve, for summing up something that a lot of people feel, but cannot put into words. I? second your feelings. ? First, I must introduce myself. Call me Jim, folks. I've known Steve for a while, and I came here at his invitation. I am new to the forum, and have read just a few posts, but judging from the content of the emails I have received already,?I feel as if there are a lot of like minded people here, and a lot of very seriously committed people. I am very pleased to meet you folks, and hope that our time spent together will be fruitful for all of us. I am honored to meet every one of you. ? In the past, I had a tendency to sugar coat things. With the change of the times, I no longer feel this urge, because the times demand our actions, not our words any longer. I speak plainly now because of this. I apologize if I offend anyone by doing so. It is not my intent to do so. ? In reference to the heaviness of the spirit that is being felt, I can attest to this. In reference to standing in the gap, I can second that also. Let me add what I feel in my spirit, and what is weighing heavily on me. I hope I don't bore anyone with the length of this post. ? I feel that we are standing in the crux of a?critical point in history folks. It's almost as if it's 1939 all over again ( even though I was not alive then) and we are faced with the choices of supporting a totalitarian movement which plans on committing large scale crimes against humanity, or we can stand with Israel, no matter what comes, no matter how unpopular it seems, and do the right thing. My choice is Israel, and doing the right thing. I will not knowingly support tyranny. I see a lot of the modern political movements, especially the UN and other similar bodies, ?display many distinctly totalitarian tendencies, and I dont want any part of them. ? No matter who gets elected President, we seem to be steaming headlong? down the road of rebellion towards G-d as a nation. Since G-d is the only author of freedom, rebellion against G-d usually results in loss of freedom. The ones who thumb their noses at G-d and proclaim that they know it all and dont need G-d usually miss this important point, to the detriment of all the people of our nation.?I only hope enough people seek the path of teshuvah, and soon, or we will all feel the results of this collective sin. ( remember: sin can be committed individually,?collectively,or as a nation. )? ? Some of us in the Midwest are already feeling some of it, especially if we engage in agriculture or ranching. Flooding, storms, crazy weather...these are warnings to us that we must heed. Failure to do so will be catastrophic. The time for repentance is now. ? Besides the Presidential race, the US is at war on two fronts, and in a quasi war on many more. Economically, politically, religiously, demographically, to name some areas. Some nations are arrayed on the battlefield, and some are simply using proxies. Some are just using their clout to take a chunk out of our economy. Others are happy with politically undermining us. This war is just starting, too. There are a lot more chapters to be written. The actors who hate us are the same ones who hate Israel, which I find significant. A Russo-Persian Arab alliance, which seems to match up with the players in the Gog-Magog war described in the Bible. ? In reference to Eretz Yisrael, we are witnessing the classic run up to a well planned campaign of genocide by her hostile neighbors and their political allies. The combined effects of relentless propaganda campaigns, mean spirited western media?smears, Arab blood libels, UN de-legitimization of Israel, overall moral equivalency, and the blatant military posturing of Israel's enemies ( known in military circles as battlefield shaping) is relentless. They all seem to have one goal: to complete the Holocaust that the Second World War failed to complete. This war will have to commence sometime soon. Until it does, we have some time to get ready for it. How much is unknown. There is one codicil I will add: this time, no Israelite or Jew will be safe, anywhere in the world. ? So we, as?members of Judah or Israel, ?have a choice: to either work together for the Glory of G-d, or fail by our apathy, fear, lack of attention, or inaction. There is no time for religious division, strife, or even arguments . We must get in gear and take some action. We have to put aside differences in order to do things that must be done. And we have a short time to do it. The "Phony War" run up? all our conflict?and strife?will not last forever. We have a limited amount of time, known only to G-d. ? A lot of people are waiting for the Messiah to come and rectify things, however, this does not relieve us of our duty to take individual initiative to stand up for what is right.?We? must feed the poor, take care of widows and orphans, and relieve the suffering of others. And ?we must do this for the sole purpose of?glorifying ?G-d, not ourselves.?In short; we are well past the time for words, we need actions. And we need them now. ? We also have to take advantage of the warning given to us by the Spirit ( ruach) and prepare to take care of ourselves, our families, and whoever we are responsible for. This includes Israelites, Jews, and any other member of the nation of Israel who needs help. ? Messianics, Nazarene, Karaite, Orthodox,?Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform, Bnei Noach, or anyone else who identifies with Israel need to find a means of unity, and begin to set the path towards forming a network of support for the people who will be suffering in this upcoming time. In short, we need unity, not division. And we need it now. We cannot afford to be separate and hostile religious bodies anymore. We must become members of the nation of Israel, whether we live in the land or not, and we must seek to become brothers with each other.?For the sake of common humanity, survival, and a common purpose, if nothing else. ? Thanks for hearing me out folks. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ---------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 ._______________________________________________ From Tacticalmgt at aol.com Sun Jun 15 23:07:11 2008 From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com (Tacticalmgt at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:07:11 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Message-ID: Thank you John. I wont be a problem. That's a promise. **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/c0dfda4c/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sun Jun 15 23:18:01 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:18:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] PRs re Confession Prayer Message-ID: <200806160418.m5G4I2c7031199@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080615/800d4bfc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 00:43:04 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:43:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You are most welcome here, Jim! Thank you so much for this post. Brachot V'Ahava, Avigail/Pat From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 10:15 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Congratulations, Steve, for summing up something that a lot of people feel, but cannot put into words. I second your feelings. First, I must introduce myself. Call me Jim, folks. I've known Steve for a while, and I came here at his invitation. I am new to the forum, and have read just a few posts, but judging from the content of the emails I have received already, I feel as if there are a lot of like minded people here, and a lot of very seriously committed people. I am very pleased to meet you folks, and hope that our time spent together will be fruitful for all of us. I am honored to meet every one of you. In the past, I had a tendency to sugar coat things. With the change of the times, I no longer feel this urge, because the times demand our actions, not our words any longer. I speak plainly now because of this. I apologize if I offend anyone by doing so. It is not my intent to do so. In reference to the heaviness of the spirit that is being felt, I can attest to this. In reference to standing in the gap, I can second that also. Let me add what I feel in my spirit, and what is weighing heavily on me. I hope I don't bore anyone with the length of this post. I feel that we are standing in the crux of a critical point in history folks. It's almost as if it's 1939 all over again ( even though I was not alive then) and we are faced with the choices of supporting a totalitarian movement which plans on committing large scale crimes against humanity, or we can stand with Israel, no matter what comes, no matter how unpopular it seems, and do the right thing. My choice is Israel, and doing the right thing. I will not knowingly support tyranny. I see a lot of the modern political movements, especially the UN and other similar bodies, display many distinctly totalitarian tendencies, and I dont want any part of them. No matter who gets elected President, we seem to be steaming headlong down the road of rebellion towards G-d as a nation. Since G-d is the only author of freedom, rebellion against G-d usually results in loss of freedom. The ones who thumb their noses at G-d and proclaim that they know it all and dont need G-d usually miss this important point, to the detriment of all the people of our nation. I only hope enough people seek the path of teshuvah, and soon, or we will all feel the results of this collective sin. ( remember: sin can be committed individually, collectively,or as a nation. ) Some of us in the Midwest are already feeling some of it, especially if we engage in agriculture or ranching. Flooding, storms, crazy weather...these are warnings to us that we must heed. Failure to do so will be catastrophic. The time for repentance is now. Besides the Presidential race, the US is at war on two fronts, and in a quasi war on many more. Economically, politically, religiously, demographically, to name some areas. Some nations are arrayed on the battlefield, and some are simply using proxies. Some are just using their clout to take a chunk out of our economy. Others are happy with politically undermining us. This war is just starting, too. There are a lot more chapters to be written. The actors who hate us are the same ones who hate Israel, which I find significant. A Russo-Persian Arab alliance, which seems to match up with the players in the Gog-Magog war described in the Bible. In reference to Eretz Yisrael, we are witnessing the classic run up to a well planned campaign of genocide by her hostile neighbors and their political allies. The combined effects of relentless propaganda campaigns, mean spirited western media smears, Arab blood libels, UN de-legitimization of Israel, overall moral equivalency, and the blatant military posturing of Israel's enemies ( known in military circles as battlefield shaping) is relentless. They all seem to have one goal: to complete the Holocaust that the Second World War failed to complete. This war will have to commence sometime soon. Until it does, we have some time to get ready for it. How much is unknown. There is one codicil I will add: this time, no Israelite or Jew will be safe, anywhere in the world. So we, as members of Judah or Israel, have a choice: to either work together for the Glory of G-d, or fail by our apathy, fear, lack of attention, or inaction. There is no time for religious division, strife, or even arguments . We must get in gear and take some action. We have to put aside differences in order to do things that must be done. And we have a short time to do it. The "Phony War" run up all our conflict and strife will not last forever. We have a limited amount of time, known only to G-d. A lot of people are waiting for the Messiah to come and rectify things, however, this does not relieve us of our duty to take individual initiative to stand up for what is right. We must feed the poor, take care of widows and orphans, and relieve the suffering of others. And we must do this for the sole purpose of glorifying G-d, not ourselves. In short; we are well past the time for words, we need actions. And we need them now. We also have to take advantage of the warning given to us by the Spirit ( ruach) and prepare to take care of ourselves, our families, and whoever we are responsible for. This includes Israelites, Jews, and any other member of the nation of Israel who needs help. Messianics, Nazarene, Karaite, Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform, Bnei Noach, or anyone else who identifies with Israel need to find a means of unity, and begin to set the path towards forming a network of support for the people who will be suffering in this upcoming time. In short, we need unity, not division. And we need it now. We cannot afford to be separate and hostile religious bodies anymore. We must become members of the nation of Israel, whether we live in the land or not, and we must seek to become brothers with each other. For the sake of common humanity, survival, and a common purpose, if nothing else. Thanks for hearing me out folks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/60b571f0/attachment.html From loyb at prodigy.net Mon Jun 16 01:12:42 2008 From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:12:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim References: Message-ID: <028501c8cf77$fd2a3a00$0201a8c0@loyc30e02e1325> Dearest Clyde, Thanks so much for this very encouraging post. It brought tears to my eyes when I read your words: "I feel so strongly the times are near even at the door for our G-D and Father to bare His Holy invisible arm to fulfill those things until they are filled-full as He declared to his servants the prophets." I have waited for so long..40 yrs now. I really needed that boost! Thanks, Loy Leorah ----- Original Message ----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:43 PM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Joseph the stick of Ephraim Dear Loy, I'm taking the vitamins that helped your Mother. But I'm also depending upon your prayer of faith. As you can see, I'm writing in bold letters so hopefully I can catch my spelling errors. Sometimes G-D uses flawed ones to work his purpose and plan. I know because I am a flawed one, plucked out of the fire. I feel so strongly the times are near even at the door for our G-D and Father to bare His Holy invisible arm to fulfill those things The picture on the ground is not always what is seen from heaven. The all seeing and all knowing G-D can make things happen that appear impossible from the picture on the ground. I know you know this, so I'm only reminding you of what you know. Thank you and others for standing in the gap as we pray our way to a 10. I know that many do not believe that the USA at its core and its beginnings was, and is, Joseph in the stick of Ephraim. Many have done good research on this, not least of whom is Gary Arvidson my research partner and a man I love. I do not ask anyone to believe we are the nation of Ephraim as I do, and as Gary does. I only ask those who do not know or do not believe, to pray as though we are Ephraim. That way the result will be the same. Well I hope my spelling will come out a little better in the bold letters. Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/6a346a0a/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 05:15:01 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:15:01 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Lekarev Report for Monday Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 13 Sivan 5768 June 16, 2008 Shalom Hashem redeems the soul of His servants; and none of them that take refuge in Him shall be abandoned. Psalms 34:22 **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/80d50802/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 05:18:38 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:18:38 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Lessons of the Six-Day War Message-ID: Lessons of the Six-Day War 13 Sivan 5768, 16 June 08 06:34 by Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen (IsraelNN.com) The Six-Day War broke out on June 5, 1967, and I was then a student at Yeshiva University. A few weeks earlier, on May 15, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai Peninsula, near the Israeli border. The United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) had been stationed in the Sinai Peninsula as a buffer between Israel and Egypt, but on May 16, Nasser, the ruler of Egypt, requested the withdrawal of the UNEF, and the Secretary-General of the UN complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs radio station proclaimed on May 18, 1967: ?The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.? Syrian troops then began preparing for battle on the Golan Heights. On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and to all ships bound for Eilat, Israel?s southern port. Under international law, a blockade of this nature is an act of war, and Israel called upon the nations of the world to intervene. The nations, however, did not offer any practical assistance in ending the blockade. In the meanwhile, Egypt and Syria formed a military pact, and Jordan soon joined this alliance, followed by Iraq. During that period, Jewish families all over the world saw on television the Arab mobs at government-organized rallies in Cairo and Damascus that were screaming over and over again, ?Push the Jews into the sea!? Despite these calls for our destruction and the gathering of Arab troops on the borders of Israel, the nations of the world were deserting us; thus, a generation after the Holocaust, we had a sense of d?j? vu, for we remembered how most of the world had abandoned our people during that dark period. I decided to encourage support for Israel in the area where I lived. As a first step, I contacted an influential liberal Christian minister. I briefly reviewed the latest developments in the Middle East, and I spoke about our concern for Israel?s survival. I then asked him if he would speak to his congregation about the danger facing Israel. He told me that he did not think that this conflict was America?s business. When I reminded him that Israel was facing possible destruction, he gave me the following message: This is not a concern of America. I was stunned by his reply, but not discouraged, and I called another well-known liberal minister. After briefly reviewing the latest developments, I asked him if he would speak to his congregation about Israel?s isolation and the danger facing her people. He did not even attempt to give me a reply; he simply hung up the phone. Years later, I became the director of the Youth Commission of the American Jewish Congress and the director of their Martin Steinberg Center ? a center for Jewish artists in the performing, visual, and literary arts. (In my work, I was known by my English name, Jeff Oboler.) Through discussion with my colleagues at the AJCongress, I discovered that what I had experienced in May, 1967 on a local level, liberal Jewish organizations had experienced on a national level. My colleagues told me that during the weeks before the Six Day War, the leaders of liberal Jewish organizations had contacted leaders of liberal Christian organizations whom they had worked with in the past and asked them to support Israel during this period of great danger; however, the Christian organizations refused to get involved. In the early morning of June 5, I and my roommates in the dormitory of Yeshiva University were woken by cries that the war had begun. According to the news on the radio, Egypt announced that its planes were bombing Tel-Aviv, and there was no report from the Israeli government! The media did not yet know that Egypt?s claim was false, and the silence of the Israeli government was frightening. We joined together to say our morning prayers, and I remember the tears and the anguish which accompanied those prayers. After the morning prayers, a group of students decided to go down to the United Nations plaza and demonstrate on behalf of Israel. A friend of mine was going in his car, and he invited me to join him. He brought with him a loudspeaker with a microphone. The United Nations building is located in a wealthy area of the East Side of Manhattan. When we arrived at the U.N. plaza, I noticed an elderly woman, elegantly dressed, who was approaching our car. She came to the open window of the car and said to us in a vitriolic tone, ?You Jews are now going to get it! ? She then quickly walked away. After she left, my friend turned to me and asked what we should do at this demonstration, as many of the students had already arrived. I felt that our public demonstration should be in the sacred spirit of our people, and I suggested that we begin to say the appropriate psalms. My friend handed me the microphone and told me to lead the students in prayer. I began chanting the Hebrew words of Psalm 130, verse by verse, according to the soulful melody that we all knew, and the students repeated after me each verse. As we chanted the words of this ancient psalm, the plaza of the United Nations was transformed into a synagogue where the Children of Israel were praying to their God. The following is a translation of this psalm: ?Out of the depths I have called to You, HaShem. O Master of All, hear my voice; let Your ears be attentive to the sound of my pleas. If You, God, should take account of iniquities ? O Master of All, Who could survive? For with You is forgiveness, in order that You may be revered. I hope for HaShem, my soul hopes, and for His word, I wait. My soul longs for HaShem among those longing for the dawn, longing for the dawn. Let Israel hope for HaShem, for with HaShem is loving-kindness, and with Him is abundant redemption. And He shall redeem Israel from all its iniquities.? (Psalm 130) That night, I called my parents, and I was surprised when they told me that they saw our prayerful demonstration on a major television news program. I had no idea that television cameras were present. My parents said that they heard the chanting of the psalms, and my sister, Devorah, even recognized my voice. I had no idea that our prayers to the Redeeming One would be heard by millions of people in a world which had abandoned Israel. Before discussing some of the miraculous results of the Six-Day War, I would like to raise the following question: What can we learn from the lonely experience of being abandoned by the world during the weeks preceding the Six-Day War? This question is very relevant to our current situation when we are experiencing the increasing isolation of Israel. I would like to suggest that we turn to the Biblical period for an answer. During this period, the prophets warned our people not to put our trust in alliances with other nations, as our true and lasting security in the Land of Zion depends upon our following the path of the Torah. One of the sources for this idea is found in the following Divine message to our people before we entered the Land: ?If you will follow My statutes and guard My mandates?I will provide shalom in the land, and you will lie down with none to frighten you? (Leviticus: 26:3,6). When many of our people began to abandon the Torah, and powerful enemies began to threaten Israel, the leaders of Israel thought that they could depend on their alliances with other nations for support. We find examples of this attitude after the reign of King Solomon, when Israel became divided into two kingdoms: the northern kingdom of Ephraim and the southern kingdom of Judah. When the northern kingdom of Ephraim was weakened and threatened with destruction, the people still felt that their salvation would come from seeking the friendship of other nations. The Prophet Hosea therefore rebuked the people, and he began by mentioning that the people ?did not return to HaShem their God and they did not seek Him despite all this? (Hosea 7:10). The Prophet then spoke about their naive reliance on other nations, and he said: ?Ephraim was like a foolish dove with no understanding: They have called to Egypt, they have gone to Assyria.? (Ibid 7:11) In another prophecy, Hosea proclaimed: ?Return Israel, unto HaShem, your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity? (Hosea 14:2). In the next statement, Hosea called upon the people not to depend on Assyria, or the horses of Egypt, or on their own military and economic accomplishments: ?Assyria will not save us; we will not ride upon horses, and we will no longer say, ?O our gods!? to the work of our hands? (Ibid 14:4). The Prophet Jeremiah issued similar warnings to the leaders of Judah. These leaders thought that some of the other nations were ?friends? that would come to the aid of Judah if it was attacked by the mighty Babylonian army; however, their hopes were dashed. Jerusalem was conquered, the Temple was destroyed, and the people went into exile. Following the great destruction, the Prophet Jeremiah wrote the Book of Lamentations which opens with the following cry of mourning over Jerusalem: ?Alas ? she sits alone. The city that was great with people has become like a widow...She weeps bitterly in the night and her tears are on her cheeks. She has no comforter from all her lovers; all her friends have betrayed her, they have become her enemies.? (Lamentations 1:1,2) The above statements of the Prophets can help us to develop a spiritual perspective regarding Israel?s isolation during the weeks before the Six-Day War. This isolation can be understood as a Divine reminder that our security and future in Zion does not depend on the ?friendship? of other nations. And the following amazing events which were a result of the war can be understood as a Divine reminder that our security and future in Zion depend on our renewed commitment to fulfilling the Torah in Zion. After the war broke out on June 5, Jordan, which ruled over the Old City of Jerusalem since 1948, started to attack the New City of Jerusalem within Israel. On June 7 ? the 28th day of the Jewish month of Iyar ? the army of Israel entered the Old City and defeated the Jordanians; thus, the Old City was reunited with the New City. Through the unification of Jerusalem, we also regained access to the Kosel ? the Western Wall of the Temple Mount. (Under Jordanian rule, Jews were not allowed to visit the Kosel.) Six days after the unification of Jerusalem was the Festival of Shavuos ? the festival which celebrates the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. With great fervor, over two hundred thousand Jews made a pilgrimage to the Western Wall on that Shavuos. This was probably the largest pilgrimage of our people in Zion since the destruction of the Second Temple, and Divine Providence caused this historic pilgrimage to take place on the festival which celebrates the giving of the Torah. The fact that our return to the Old City of Jerusalem and other parts of the Land of Zion took place before the Festival of Shavuos may have been HaShem?s way of reminding us that we were given the Land of Zion in order to fulfill the Torah and thereby serve as a spiritual model for all the nations. In this way, we will merit to experience the fulfillment of the following prophecy: ?It will happen in the end of days: The Mountain of the Temple of HaShem will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. Many peoples will go and say, ?Come, let us go up to the Mountain of HaShem, to the Temple of the God of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths.? For from Zion will go forth Torah, and the word of HaShem from Jerusalem.? (Isaiah 2: 2,3) _www.IsraelNationalNews_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/3cc3e878/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 05:26:39 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:26:39 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] GREAT article about prophecy Message-ID: Boker tov L'Kulchem, When I saw this, I knew I had to pass it on to all of you. Not only does it make some very interesting points about prophecy, but Uri Zvi Greenberg has always been my favorite modern Hebrew poet. Hanoch Uri Zvi Greenberg & Beha'alotkha 13 Sivan 5768, 16 June 08 06:36 by Yehuda HaKohen (IsraelNN.com) "Two men remained behind in the camp, the name of one was Eldad and the name of the second was Medad, and the spirit rested upon them; they had been among the recorded ones, but they had not gone out to the Tent, and they prophesied in the camp. The youth ran and told Moshe, and he said, 'Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.' Yehoshua Bin Nun, the servant of Moshe since his youth, spoke up and said, 'My lord Moshe, incarcerate them!' Moshe said to him, 'Are you being zealous for my sake? Would that the entire people of HaShem could be prophets, if HaShem would but place His Spirit upon them!'" -- Bamidbar 11:26-29 In his great humility, Moshe reveals a profound concept regarding the truth of prophecy. While both the youth and Yehoshua had expected their teacher to be angry with Eldad and Medad, Moshe surprised them by stating his wish that the entire Israeli Nation become prophets. One prophet per generation cannot be enough, as no one else would then understand his Divine message. In order to internalize the basic teaching that the leading prophet brings to the masses, all Israel must attain some level of prophecy. Throughout Scripture, prophets have come to the Hebrew Nation with a sincere and truthful message. Yet, these prophets have nearly always failed to rescue Israel from physical and spiritual threats. These failures are not due to a shortcoming in the prophet or his message, but rather to the public's inability to receive and appreciate this message. In most cases in which prophets had come to Israel with warnings, they were dismissed by the people as extreme or irrational. Each prophet spoke a language of absolute simplicity which brushed off of the masses, stuck in their illusions of personal gratification and not wishing to hear a Divine message of salvation. Rashi explains regarding Shmuel I 18:10, that vayitnabeh, usually translated "and he prophesied," is used in this verse to describe King Shaul's mental illness because both a prophet and a madman express ideas that are often unintelligible to those around them. Throughout Israel's history, prophets are rarely taken seriously because the masses are seldom on a level to understand them. Due to illusions of intellectualism and false security, people often convince themselves of whatever it is they prefer to believe - whatever will make them comfortable for the moment. Therefore, a "prophet" - one who through great love and courage has already broken free of his own illusions - is most often unable to bring his message to the people whose fortified egos protect their hearts from his words. Although Moshe wishes for all Israel to become prophets, not every Jew has to attain the same level of Divine Spirit. But unless we all develop a minimal level of prophecy, we will not be able to understand the words of individual prophets who come with sincere messages of warning or salvation. In modern times, as the Jewish people return to nationhood, sovereignty and eventually prophecy (chapter 3 of The Kuzari), there have already been sparks of the Divine Spirit, specifically among those whose sensitivity and courage have allowed them to break through their own psychological barriers. One unique example of this phenomenon was the revolutionary Hebrew poet Uri Zvi Greenberg. The fact that Greenberg's poetry features the pre-state Hebrew underground, the terrible Holocaust in Europe and Israel's wars of liberation would not astonish anyone - unless they were to read the dates at the bottom of each poem. Each of these historic events was recorded by Greenberg twenty or more years before its actual occurrence. Fellow poet Chaim Nachman Bialik once asked Greenberg how he was able to write of the Holocaust and describe the slaughter of millions of Jews in 5682 (1922). Greenberg replied: "But I see it." In fact, many of the poems in Rehovot HaNahar, a 5711 (1951) volume detailing the atrocities of the Holocaust, were written the previous decade, before the world had received the news reports from Europe. Yet, all of the details that later emerged corresponded to the words found in Greenberg's poems. "Holy of Holies" describes the brutal murder of the poet's mother. He had written it before the actual event from a nightmare he once had, simply recording what he tortuously saw. >From 5682, Greenberg wrote and spoke continuously about the terrible catastrophe that was approaching the Jews of Europe. Although his poems were widely accepted as great cultural works, the masses were not able to recognize the dangers or heed his warnings. Throughout the decade leading up to World War II, the poet pleaded with the Jews of Poland to organize an emergency evacuation to the Land of Israel. But the masses could not grasp the truth in Greenberg's warnings. Trapped in the day-to-day realities of their individual lives, the Jews were unable to see the historic events developing around them. After G-d had taken Israel out from Egypt, the Hebrews were crossing the Sea of Reeds. One complained to another about the mud they had to walk through. They were on their way from slavery to Redemption and one man could not see past the mud on his feet. A prophet is not bothered by the mud because he can envision a great historic picture. He sees the course of events shaping and is consciously attached to the higher life of Israel's national soul, encompassing each Jew in every generation throughout time. Following the Holocaust, Greenberg wrote a poem in which he dialogues with HaShem. In it, he asks: "How did I ever get here? A man of vision befouled by their mud." Like the man complaining about mud while crossing the sea, European Jewry saw only the immediate. And because they were blinded by their illusions of security in the exile, they could not attain the level of Divine Spirit necessary to understand a man who was trying desperately to save them. Seeing beyond the present is a result of deep vision. Only a person possessing great love can be sensitive to the forces of hatred before they are mature enough to strike. While Adolph Hitler was still forming his beliefs, Greenberg had identified the threat to his people. He felt the humiliation of Israel - the humiliation of G-d's Name - and dreamt of Hebrew honor and pride. The central theme of his work was the Redemption of Israel, often focusing on Hebrew wars of liberation and the rebuilding of G-d's Temple in Jerusalem. "Every sage in Israel who possesses the words of Torah according to their true significance and grieves for the honor of the Kadosh Baruch Hu and for the honor of Israel all his days, and lusts and feels pain for the honor of Jerusalem and of the Temple, and for the swift flowering of salvation and the ingathering of the exiles, attains the infusion of the Divine Spirit in his words...." (Tanna d'bei Eliyahu chapter 4; Mesillat Yesharim chapter 19) Greenberg once told a journalist how he came to write "I'll Tell It to a Child": "I dreamt one night.... I saw the Temple Mount, above it an eagle, and around it circles and circles of Jews, and from the Mount a slope inclined straight to the sea. On either side were lines of soldiers from all the world's armies. In the dream, I felt that the Divine Presence was leaving the Mount. I woke up weeping. My cries woke everyone in the house. They asked, 'What happened, what happened?' That morning, I went to Chief Rabbi Kook and found him wrapped in his prayer shawl. I told him the dream. He did not say a word, just took my hand in his and wept. I went home and wrote 'I'll tell it to a Child'" Uri Zvi Greenberg saw so clearly what many Jewish leaders and great scholars could not. His life and efforts serve as a vindication for Moshe's wish that all Israel be prophets and that it is not merely a luxury, but a necessity for Hebrew survival. Greenberg's "prophecy" was most likely not a situation in which G-d directly informed him of what would transpire. The poet had destroyed a certain amount of his own illusions in order to obtain a recognition of reality. He saw every Jew as a piece of himself and was therefore able to recognize what others could not. He foretold disaster before the Nazi party had even begun its climb to power and he envisioned Redemption when few people were even prepared to think in such terms. His poetry stands out from the writings of others because, while they wrote of things removed from the reader's emotions, Greenberg's poetry was a poetry of engagement. It stemmed from what the sages call the "wisdom of the heart" - a wisdom that views the soul of reality from an emotional perspective. Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi teaches in The Kuzari that as the Hebrew Nation returns to our borders, prophecy will begin to reappear among us. Israel's current education system is based on a primitive Western model that places disproportionate focus on intellectual advancement and individual achievement. But because we must all aspire to a basic level of Divine Spirit, it is crucial that our education system be altered to one that places at least the same emphasis on the emotional and spiritual development of children as is currently placed on their intellectual growth. Israel must raise a generation sensitive not only to the suffering of others, but also to Jewish destiny and Israel's national aspirations. A generation will arise that will be selfless enough to see reality clearly and to understand the words of our true national shepherds. This generation - unable to stomach the profanation of G-d's Name or the humiliation of Israel - will be the generation of prophets that will usher in an era of true freedom for the Jewish Nation. _www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/bc9621f6/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 06:00:21 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Good morning... Message-ID: <628711.65360.qm@web37507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shalom! First of all, welcome Jim, and we value your input!   Here is a verse that I came across in my reading this morning, and I wanted to share it with the rest of you:   "For the scepter of wickedness shall not rest upon the land of the righteous, lest the righteous stretch forth their hands to iniquity and apostasy."  Psalm 125:3 Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/933b60a2/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jun 16 08:05:38 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:05:38 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Message-ID: Hi Jim: Thank you for this post. You see clearly the condition of the times. And Hanoch, Steve, Tracy, Loy, Pat, and so many others. Both truth and spirit, grace and knowledge, is being manifested in this group of called out ones, to the glory of G-D. Ross is doing his job with the front-line message, the Shull and putting the Hebrew under the Greek of the NT was fantastic. Torah, Torah, Torah, the pathway to righteousness, wonderful Ross, you opened my eyes to see further and I do thank you for that. Standing in the GAP, is standing on the promises of our great and Mighty G-D and Father. There is the work of G-D , and then there is the work he has assigned the called out ones, and it seems we are all getting the point. Spread the word to Ephraim, Judah, and the Gentile G-D fearer to turn to the ancient path of righteousness. If we and all that the L-D out G-D shall choose in this last days election will do out job, as the L-D G-D is doing His, it will all come out right. My thanks to all of you dear ones. I'm so encouraged by these many posts. Clyde **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/94f1e5fc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tacticalmgt at aol.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:15:22 EDT Size: 17197 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/94f1e5fc/attachment.mht From CBrown4465 at aol.com Mon Jun 16 08:21:41 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:21:41 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Message-ID: Well, now Hanoch, you see you are a warrior on behalf of G-D and all of his children. May G-D be with you as you deliver the message, and I'm convinced he will be. Your brother Ephraim Clyde **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/9f44d113/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: YoungBarzel at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:52:23 EDT Size: 7397 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/9f44d113/attachment.mht From rndavar at aol.com Mon Jun 16 08:37:57 2008 From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:37:57 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1582622200-1213623452-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1688833774-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I would love to attend this conference. I pray that you are moved by the Spirit to speak to your brother. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:21:41 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Well, now Hanoch, you see you are a warrior on behalf of G-D and all of his children.? May G-D be with you as you deliver the message, and I'm convinced he will be. ? Your brother Ephraim ? Clyde ---------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 ._______________________________________________ From arvidson at ctc.net Mon Jun 16 09:46:50 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] USA is Ephraim: 70 Evidences Message-ID: <20080616144643.FVDQ10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dialogue Friends, The subject of the USA being the primary fulfillment of the Ephraim Peoples (EP) in the last days has arisen. I thought you might like to review a listing of 70 Evidences to this affect. This listing was first printed back in 2004. It has been cut-&-pasted to this e-mail below. What you will find, is an abbreviated listing of overall statements presented in response to Clyde?s suggestion about his request to the Dialogue List in bold in a statement made to Loy. Clyde said: ? Thank you and others for standing in the gap as we pray our way on a scale of 1-10, all the way to a 10. I know that many do not believe that the USA at its core and its beginnings was, and is, Joseph in the stick of Ephraim. Many have done good research on this, not least of who is Gary Arvidson my research partner and a man I love. I do not ask anyone to believe we are the nation of Ephraim as I do, and as Gary does. I only ask those who do not know or do not believe, to pray as though we are Ephraim. That way the result will be the same ? (To Loy 6/15/08). Since Clyde has now stuck my foot into this research inquiry, I think I have something that can be offered to this list, so that you can work more toward ?knowing? that the USA more exactly fulfills the role of Ephraim in the last days. This research was prepared over a number of years, but this listing was only first printed in 2004 (see below). I have another 30 page draft which gives more detail, but at least this 8 pages below will give you a good introduction. But the bulk of this research, which has been accumulated over the past 40 years, is best summarized in a pile of 8 ? X 11? material that is about a foot tall. In the final sense, it is enough for a couple of books. This would take months to complete. I sincerely hope this offering will be of some assistance to you in understanding how the USA could be perceived as fulfilling the role of Ephraim in the world today. The type is set up to print booklet style ? i.e. 2 pages to one sheet. There are a number of other booklets on this topic, but this is good for a starter. Gary _______________ File: Ephraim USA-1A 1st cut: 7/31/04 3rd cut: 8/02/04 The United States is Ephraim An Outline Summary 70 Evidences by Gary Arvidson This is merely a preliminary summary that lists the known evidences ? that are fully explained in the primary exposition by this same title. This summary is for purposes of giving an overall perspective to the researcher. ____________ _ ____________ 1 ? Harry Curley?s List Below are the list of factors derived from the article by Harry Curley entitled: Will the Real Ephraim Please Stand Up? #1. Great Britain became great, but truly, the United States be-came greater. #2. The United States, as its name describes, is a multitude or ?union? of nation states. Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson #3. The nation with the larger population, the United States of America, must be Ephraim. #4. Ephraim and Manasseh have much in common, but the Bible does point out some differences. Manasseh was split in two. The same is true today. #5. Manasseh got along better with Judah (p.15). #6. We have biblical examples of how Ephraim conducted himself in war, and present day examples of modern nations. #7. The USA is the only nation that treats its vanquished enemies as equals. That is not a British trait. #8. There is a difference between how a firstborn acts and how someone who is not a firstborn. #9. The US looks to England like an older brother. Even though there is a respect there, the US still ?does its own thing? (p.15). #10. Who is most interested in keeping family genealogy? The firstborn or the other? It is the firstborn of course. In this case that would be Manasseh. #11. Mislabeling Ephraim prevents prophecy from being fully understood. #12. What makes a nation great? Take your pick, and the US comes out ahead of Great Britain. #13. Even in conquests: Great Britain has Mount Everest, but the US has the Moon. 2 ? Lyle Timmins? Additions Below are the two additional factors that were included in Lyle Timmins? article entitled: Ephra?im, Manasseh, Texas and the Bill of Rights (2pp.). His additions are #14 & #15 of this sequence. #14. The...?company of nations? ...Hebrew word...is qahal... ?...to assemble (selves)(together)?...It is not a division created ?from the top down.? #15. Each separate colony was a ?massing? of like peoples. Each colony was unique; they had different laws regarding religion, taxes, slavery, etc. 3 ? William Dankenbring?s List Next on the list of those providing initial evidences for the identity of Ephraim as the USA ? is from Bill DankenbringHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn1"[1]. #16. NUMBERS: Ephraim was to vastly out-number Manasseh (Deut.33:17), ten to one. #17. YOUNGEST IN AGE: The USA is the younger nation to rise; England is like an older brother, though both dwelled together for many centuries. #18. NOBILITY: Many people of nobility came to the USA. #19. WINE-DRINKING: Ephraim was to become a people who drank too much wine (Isa.28:1). #20. MOST BLESSED: Ephraim was to posses the greatest natural resources and beauty ? including ?verdant valleys? (Isa.28:1). #21. WILD BULL QUALITY: Ephraim and Manasseh together have ?pushed the peoples to the ends of the earth? (Deut.33:17). #22. DOUBLE FRUITFUL: Ephraim?s very name literally means ?doubly fruitful.? #23. COMPANY OF NATIONS: The younger brother will be greater. #24. DISTRUST ROYALTY: Ephraim always was distrustful of royalty, particularly of the house of David. #25. GEOGRAPHIC PARALLELS: Geographically, in ancient Israel, the house of Manasseh was divided, separated into East Manasseh and West Manasseh, with the Jordan River the dividing line. #26. IDOL WORSHIP: Ephraim was prophesied to become ?joined to idols? (Hos 4:17). #27. MIXED PEOPLE: Ephraim was to be a ?mixed? people. #28. THE 13TH TRIBE: Ephraim was the 13th tribe. #29. CHRONOLOGICAL FULFILLMENT: The northern tribes of Israel were taken into captivity by Assyria in 718-721 B.C. 4 ? Joseph Coman?s Additions This material was sent in response to the article that appeared the The Journal. That article was entitled: Trading Places: Could America be Ephraim in Prophecy? (August 30, 2002, p.8). #30. GROW TOGETHER: ?in the midst of the earth.? #31. FRUITFUL BOUGH: ?branches run over the wall.? #32. JUDAH?S SCEPTRE: ?crossed paths of the Union Jack.? 5 ? Additional Evidences This listing continues with additional evidences that have been accumulated by Gary Arvidson and Clyde Brown. #33. The British are more ?staid? and impervious to change (just like with an older first?born who is ?living on his laurels?). #34. Great Britain played the vital role of the ?firstborn? to the Jews in 1917 under General Allenby, by taking Palestine, and then holding the land for Judah for 30 years until 1947. #35. Consider the old ?dignified? traditional responsibility for the care and maintenance of the reigning Royal House in England. #36. Which nation is greater than the other when compared on a basis measured by ?sooner-or-later? in time (first or last)? #37. The Americans were more lenient than the British ? to the Arabs during the Suez Crisis of the mid-50?s. #38. Examine the amazing contrasts in the two greatest canals ever build in the world by these two peoples: Suez & Panama. #39. Ephraim was prophesied to be the ?melting pot? of the world, which corresponds supremely to the USA ? and not England. #40. The younger child of a family tends to be the most self- indulgent, undisciplined, and often, unruly. Look at how American society has been a ?spoiled? nation overall. #41. Consider the magnitude of North America real estate in the context of: location, location, location. On that basis, this is the ?Promised Land.? It was to those who settled Los Angeles. #42. There is only oneHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn2"[2] Great Woman who is specified in the Bible. She is the nation of Israel ? and represented most by Ephraim. #43. The prophetic factor of discernment for Dt 33:17 defines the 10-to-1 ratio of military personnel ? when comparing Ephraim with Manasseh in the last days. #44. Connecting Dt 33:17 to Da 11:40 through the identical word ? push ? ? allows an application in a symbolical sense to the last phase of the 3rd (Greek) Kingdom in Alexandria of Egypt under Mark Antony?s dominion. It began his defeat. #45. Consideration of the two Bible words ?...bow down ? must be contemplated ? since England has gracefully ?bowed down? to American wishes since the US gained the ascendancy. #46. Implications about the nation specified in Mt 21:43 point to this text being fulfilled primarily by Ephraim of Joseph in the long haul (the source of good Bible scholarship). #47. The British occupied many nations as a colonial power ? whereas the US grew into a multitude of nations -- wherein the participants chose to unite under a strong central government. #48. Examine Halford J. Mackinder?s map of the world, and then compare the position of the primary power centers emanating from the exact center of the map (N/S & E/W). #49. A careful comparison between the World Island and Maritime Lands reveals that Joseph would become a mighty sea power. The Islamic Quran indicates as much. #50. The direction of ?South? is relative to the determining factor of direction ? such as ? with the oceans that are located primarily in the south (i.e. southern hemisphere). #51. A ?double blessing? is the prior basis in the Bible for any form of directly stated ?double curse.? One follows the other, when blessings are abused by blessed people. #52. We should be willing to think ?outside the box.? The reader should review his general perspective on this kind of subject. #53. The greatest blessing was in the land that was ?between the seas.? One tangential aspect of Da 11:45 considers that North America is, in the maximum sense, the most significant ?blessed? landmass in the world ? that is ?between the seas? (Atlantic & Pacific). It compares to Palestine in this sense. #54. The other 10 Tribes of Israel (11 with Levi) were predestined to ?bow down? before the leadership of the primary 2 tribes of Israel: Joseph and Judah. #55. The tribe of Naphtali is one of the easiest identities to place from known history by analysis of tribal names (coming into Sweden). Many migrated to Ephraim ? not Manasseh. #56. The vexing prophecy of Isa 11:13 is where ? Judah shall not vex Ephraim ?. This applies to America and Judah more than Britain and Judah (e.g. Bush & Sharon). #57. Ephraim is a name found frequently in the pages of Bible prophecy ? whereas Manasseh is not. This should be seen as highly significant for final events. #58. The evidence of the NT mission of Jesus as ? the good shepherd . (Jn 10:11, 14) compares with ? the shepherd ? of Ge 49:24 ? as tied to Jn 11:54 & Mt 21:43. #59. The final generation upon whom has come the end of the age is summarized in the book of Hosea. This book specifies Ephraim 37 times ? and doesn?t mention Manasseh once. #60. Israelites are predestined to serve as: ? a Light unto the Nations .? America did service to other nations more than any other country in world history. #61. The period from 745 BCE to 1776 CE fulfilled the 2520 years of captivity imposed on the northern tribes of Israel ? up to the signing of the Declaration of Independence. #62. Two-foldness appears in the naming of Joseph by his mother, Rachel. It shows ?a taking away,? and ?an adding to? ? that relates to the prophetic fulfillment of this son (Rev 22:18-19). #63. Joseph?s brothers didn?t know Joseph?s true identity when he delivered them from famine. Also today, the nations of Europe don?t discern America as Joseph. #64. The lost tribes of Israel are perceived by some rabbis as fulfilling the meaning of the text: ? the secret things [that] belong unto the Lord .? (Dt 29:29). #65. The relative positions of the tribes surrounding the Tabernacle of Moses becomes a powerful prophetic device that places Ephraim in the ?far west? (North America). #66. This perspective also translates into a correspondence with the rotated positions of the Hebrew Zodiac signs ? that have been discovered (since 1925), and comprise the Glastonbury ring (10 mile diameter Zodiac) in Somerset England. #67. The reversal of the identities of Ephraim & Manasseh in the latter days, was predictable typologically by the reversals of the firstborn sons through 4 generations ? from Isaac to Ephraim, the 4th generation. This is a 4-fold precedent that was established for discerning ?the time of the end.? #68. The Saxons were the most forward and aggressive tribe ? while the Getae seemed to follow the lead. It appears that these two branches were fulfilled by clans of Ephraim and Manasseh. One clan named the Massegetae seems to confirm this. #69. The two wings of a great eagle depict the extensive air power that is known in the USA. #70. America is the most prominent supra-national state that appears to fulfill the description of the Great Eagle in 2 Esdras. #71. The American Indians had a prophecy about the mighty empire that would arise on the North American landmass. #72. Comparison of the narrow land (Eng land) to the wide land (North America) is one additional basis for determining the difference between Ephraim and Manasseh. Note: For the skeptic, logic would suggest that all of the 72 points of evidence cannot be wrong ? now can they? The point is: which ones might be in error, and which ones are correct? We should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref1"[1] This material was sent to me by Steven Collins, and corresponds closely to a similar list published by Yair Davidy on his web site at: HYPERLINK "http://www.britam.org/ephorman.html"www.britam.org/ephorman.html. The list posted here appears in the same order as that one derived from these two sources ? even though this writer bolded the primary introductory statement and outlined the remaining explanation of each point that was presented. HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref2"[2] one ? Of course, Judah was included with the northern tribes in sharing this title. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/abe892a0/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 16 10:13:19 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:13:19 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Testimony and BARUCH HASHEM'S!!! In-Reply-To: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1CD19C566EE044F69286ABE13BAD5A77@bettygivin> Dear Brothers and Sisters I literally don't even have a spare minute to read any of the postings to the list anymore and I certainly don't have any time to write, yet I must. Let me just say that on a personal level, Roger and I have been richly blessed, yet are overwhelmed with number of hours we must put in to our work that we have prayed for.12 hours a day, minimum.but it has been 16 most days and night before last, it was 24 for me.I had to stay up all night to catch up and worked thru the day yesterday, which was our Anniversary.and neither one of us even remembered. I just noticed it when I looked at the calendar a minute ago when I put down Hanoch's name on my calendar to mark his speaking date to the Messianic Israel Alliance on Tisha B'Av. BARUCH HASHEM, HANOCH!!! BARUCH HASHEM FOR YOU, AND FOR YOUR WILLINGNESS TO REACH OUT TO YOUR EPHRAMITE FAMILY!!! As in the days of old, it is Judah reaching out to Joseph on behalf of little Benjamin.in fact he was interceding, as are for all his brothers! This past year and a half has been one of the most difficult periods in my life and in the life of my entire family, for we have been surrounded by problems and hurts from death, illness..emotional, physical, mental, not to mention financial. Over the past year and a half, some of you may know, that aside from a very small and inconsistent income from my substitute teaching, that we have been out of work since we were both laid off from our jobs. And of course, not knowing that this was going to happen, this was the time that we chose to purchase a home( not exactly very good timing on our parts).our first one since our original home was destroyed in a flood 14 years ago! There have been a lot of complications with Roger's health. He has been in the hospital several times and we have barely been able to hold our heads above water. I don't really want or need to go into all the details, but wanted to tell you that much, so that you will be able to appreciate the tremendous blessing that HaShem is now giving us, and hopefully, we will be able to dig ourselves out of this financial "pit" we have been in! HaShem has been and I know will continue to me my strength!!! And although the family situations are still hard, there is light at the end of the tunnel there too! BARUCH HASHEM!!!! He is MY G-D AND I WILL PRAISE HIM FOR ALL HE HAS DONE !!! In addition to our getting some temporary work this past week.which has kept us working like crazy, Roger now has a new, and we pray, permanent job, with Countrywide Insurance, which he started today!!! And now, that we have a portion of our income that we need to sustain us and begin to pay off our debts, may HaShem also bless me with a teaching job in the fall. BARUCH HASHEM FOR ROGER'S JOB, AND FOR THE JOB HE HAS IN STORE FOR ME!!! I have only read some of the posts.it is so hard as I sit here at my computer reviewing catastrophe claims to hear the little "dings" to alert me of new emails, and see all the ones coming thru and know that I cannot read them.but at least I know you guys are out there and that there is excitement among you.and amidst the dread and forebodings of all that is going on, we can be thankful that HaShem has given us one another and that we can stand in the GAP for each other, for our fellow Ephramites, for Judah, and for KOL Y'SRAEL as we join together in Steve's Confessional Prayer in solidarity!!! BARUCH HASHEM THAT HE HAS GIVEN US ONE ANOTHER AND THE PRIVILEDGE TO PRAY AND STAND IN THE GAP!!! In The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs, Steve Mathe wrote. This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of Elijah / Eli Y This passage has been special to me for many years on many levels.The Menorah as many of you know was all cast from one piece of gold.so each of the branches are connected to one another and to the center. I read that as the lights are 'kindled," their flames all sort of 'flow' to the center.And in that flowing to the center, each of them is connected to the other and keeps the other one burning. I am sure you have witnessed candles as they flicker, and how one can ignite another when the flicker of one is dying down.I have often thought that we are like candles.yes, Steve, "may the fire of the Holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled" in each of us and may we spread it to one another and to the four corners of the earth!!! BARUCH HASHEM FOR THE WONDROUS TEACHINGS IN THE TORAH, FOR BRINGING IT TO OUR HEARTS, MINDS AND SOULS. AND FOR THE FIRE OF THE HOLY SPIRT OF OUR G-D THAT HE HAS PLACED IN EACH OF US SO THAT WE MIGHT SHINE FORTH!!! It is so wonderful that so many of our group is in or going to be in the HOLY CITY together, and some even digging on Mt. Zion!!! And that you are going Tracey and have committed to pray at Rachel's tomb and stand in the gap for the Ephramites, and that brother Hanoch of Judah may be able to go with you!!! BARUCH HASHEM FOR THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE ABLE TO MAKE TREKS TO Y'RUSHALAYIM ON BEHALF OF US ALL!!! II would love to write and share more, but I truly must get to work.I have a long day and will need to be working into the night again, but I just wanted to express my love and my gratitude for each of you.I won't name names because I don't want to leave anyone out.but all of you are unique and special and I am so thankful that you have been placed in my life!!! BARUCH HASHEM FOR ALL OF YOU!!! Much love and many, many blessings!!! Elisheva/Betty _____ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/ef94628f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 11:07:10 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:07:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a more lucid explanation of Scripture. Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in the mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns the demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been told was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to be referring to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even speaks of the golden cup in her hand. This is in reference to an ancient golden cup known as the "cup of Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of this golden cup being in HaShem's hand, for He is ultimately in control of everything! Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to the Tribes! "For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Yisrael. Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's vengeance; He will render to her a recompense. Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed.... In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of commerce. I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Dear Clyde and All, Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance of your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and from now on increasingly so. The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way to tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore it is our responsibility to do so. I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, not wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not found a way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything we do. Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and "she" is out into the world. There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of them. They act as her "servants" setting the stage, for her emergence, by setting the basket on a base in the plains of Shinar, which is in Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of lesser stature who are also set loose. The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, they head for the Earth. Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This is a Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of Elijah / Eli Y-h. If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we need to know. It is time. Steve At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: Dear friends: I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph. In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go. But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three? According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings Thank you all for listening Clyde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/5d72502f/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Mon Jun 16 14:10:42 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:10:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction Message-ID: <20080616191036.MLJV6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dialogue Friends, I?m sorry I put the cart in front of the horse. Since I sent that summary of 70 evidences, I thought it would be good to give you a quick introduction to it. I have cut & pasted below, some of the preliminary introduction drafted years ago ? for the larger exposition under development. Please realize that this is ?excised material? from 30 pages of preliminary draft. It will give you more of the drift for the basis for the Ephraim concept ? and where we might be headed with it. It has been in suspended animation since 2004. Maybe it is time to get it going again? In short, not everyone in the US is Ephraimite. This is a melting pot of many peoples. But the basic stock of original peoples who came here from NW Europe would come close to fulfilling the concept espoused by the prophet Amos, who said: ?For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth?? (Am 9:9). Ellsworth Huntington commented on this text relative to this concept in Amos, in his book entitled: Mainsprings of Civilization. Wouldn?t it be amazing if people came to perceive that this sifting process led all the way to North America? Where is the ultimate extent of ??the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills?? specified in Ge 49:25 anyway? If you go from Palestine to the end of the West, you come to the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada. Could this terrain be along the line of the more ultimate fulfillment of this major prophecy given to Israel? It is something to consider. Gary __________ File: Ephraim USA-1 3rd cut: 5/11/01 7th cut: 3/08/03 8th cut: 5/15/04 PRELIMINARY 9th cut: 7/28/04 The United States is Ephraim 70 Evidences by Gary Arvidson Probably one of the most shocking claims anyone could make ? is to identity the United States with the biblical tribe of Ephraim. In order to comprehend the basis for this claim, a perspective about the two tribes of Joseph is essential. These two tribes originated with Joseph, and are called Ephraim and Manasseh. They appear in contrast to the separate tribe called Judah. David and Solomon were kings over the entire kingdom of Israel that was made up of all 12 tribes. David?s grandson, Rehoboam, caused a split in the kingdom, so thereafter the tribes were divided into two basic groupings of: (#1) the House of Judah, headed by the tribe of Judah, and (#2) the House of Israel, headed by the tribe of Ephraim. This outline of evidence shows that the United States fulfills the role of the lead tribe of the ?lost tribes? of Israel in the last days. ____________ _ ____________ Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson In 1996, Harry Curley published an articleHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn1"[1] that posed a question about the identity of the tribe of Ephraim in our times. That article was entitled: Will the Real Ephraim Please Stand Up? This publication listed 13 rea?sons why the United States should be identifiedHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn2"[2] with the tribe of Ephraim ? and not the former British Commonwealth. At the same time, Lyle Timmins produced a companion paper entitled: Ephraim, Manasseh, Texas and the Bill of Rights. It listed two additional reasons for the US being Ephraim. This was the beginning of research that now includes other listings of evidences below for other sourcesHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn3"[3] mentioned in this summary. These 5 contributions from 5 individuals constitute a total of 70 evidences, depending upon how they are figured ? and in some cases, with some evidences overlapping. This means that we now have as many as 70 evidences showing why the US can be discerned as fulfilling the role of Ephraim in this modern world. Is it really possible that America was founded by descendants from the tribe of Ephraim, and that it fulfills this role in today?s world? This brief inquiry supplies only the most abbreviated summary. It is intended as a potential basis of topic for the forthcoming conference in Jerusalem about ?the Lost 10 Tribes? (note: that was a topic of news when this was being drafted earlier ? 6/16/08). The Ephraim Question Who ever thought before in terms of such potential reversals about this topic? Yet the notion is intriguing. The big question is this: could the correct identity of the descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh have been ?criss-crossed? ? just like with Jacob's arms? Is it possible that the correct answer to the riddle about these two brothers is that the correct identity had been ?overturned? for some strange reason? We may find potentially deeper implications (that are hypotheti?cally inferrable) from a more intense application of prophetic typology in this material. It is suggested by the ?crossed arms? ? and indicates we might have gotten ?crossed up? about the correct identity of these two tribes of Joseph. This is an ?overturn.? There were many ?overturns? in the OT, such as with: (1) Ishmael & Isaac, (2) Esau & Jacob, (3) Reuben & Joseph, (4) Manasseh & Ephraim, (5) Pharez & Zarah, (6) etc. Could there be an implied lesson in this for the last days ? with the most major identifications of the two birthright tribes? Consider also that Joseph?s true identity in Egypt was not disclosed to his brothers. Could this be a type that Joseph is not disclosed to his own kin in the last days? In short, what if the ?crossed arms? of Jacob also suggest a crossing of identities for ?the last days?? Is this possible ? or impossible? Should we limit God? If it is reasonable, this notion would comprise a potential double fulfillment ? (#1) back then, and (#2) now, in the last days. We find that a number of doubles play a major part in Biblical prophecy, as can be shown by other factors. This is a study in itself. We even find reference to the ?Double-Messiah? (see booklet: Double-Messiah in Bible Prophecy 16pp.) The notion suggested here is that these ?crossed identities? would serve to keep ?eyes closed? about the total mystery ? until the critical time. This would be the eventual time when God would want the identity of Ephraim to be disclosed to the whole world. Considering current events, it looks like we could be getting much closer to this hypothesized time. Whoever Ephraim is today, investigators had better take a careful look at the book of Hosea, because this prophetic book is directed at Ephraim. If we don?t know the identity of Ephraim, then how can we possible understandHYPERLINK \l "BM__ftn4"[4] Hosea?s prophecies? There are a number of serious warnings in Hosea, such as: ??Ephraim has mixed himself [melting pot] among the people...Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knows it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knows it not?? (Hos 7:9). Isn?t this one of America?s big problems today? We just don?t know where all the dangerous strangers (terrorists) are located. We can?t find them easily in an open society. But it doesn?t end there. Immigration is about to swamp the US on yet another basis ? just basic volume ? all the while jobs are being exported to other countries. Yet this is the time when the Baby Boomers want to retire. They have grey hair and want to enjoy retirement. Yet the nation (of Ephraim) is financially broke (when you know the facts). Reversed Positions? For those individuals who are accustomed to thinking of the United States as being the tribe of Manasseh (i.e. the other tribe of Joseph), the idea that America is really Ephraim must be shocking indeed. It is a complete reversal of thought ? somewhat similar to the idea resident within the act of Jacob crossing his hands over the two sons of Joseph nearly 3500 years ago (see: Ge 48:17-18). In this sense, the story about the crossing of the hands is really symbolic for our time. Assuming that Harry Curley and Lyle Timmins are correct in their combined list of 15 evidences of persuasion that the US ? not England ? is Ephraim ? then the implications are quite significant ? relative to prophetic fulfillment. Temporary End of this ?excised portion? from the Exposition ? to be cont?d? _____ _____ HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref1"[1] article ? Two pages of information appeared in the Servants News for November 1996 (pp.14-15). In it, Mr. Harry Curley specified 13 reasons why it is more reasonable to believe that the United States is Ephraim today ? and not the former British Empire (or the Common?wealth). HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref2"[2] identified ? The word identified used here (or ?represents?) is a better choice for the situation posed than the word ?is? ? since many races and peoples inhabit the territory of the US. This is a melting pot of peoples. Therefore, the intent is to convey the idea that the creation of the US was primarily by the tribe of Ephraim. In short, it was the most significant tribe involved in establishing the process that evolved into the most powerful nation-state in the world. HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref3"[3] sources ? This includes in the following order: William Dankenbring and Joseph Coman. HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref4"[4] understand ? Hosea mentions Ephraim by name 37 times. Manasseh is not mentioned once. If this is truly a prophecy for the last days, therefore, does it not appear to be a critical issue that the proper nation-state be identified as Ephraim? Much depends upon this. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/a0b9cc29/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 15:45:01 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:45:01 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: <1582622200-1213623452-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1688833774-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1582622200-1213623452-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1688833774-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8CA9E08FB693E89-9AC-1D6C@MBLK-D29.sysops.aol.com> Hey Ross - ???? Thanks man, I think their early registration ends next week - check out their website.? Hope to see you there - can I invite you to join me for Shabbat dinner? ??????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: Ross Nichols To: Dialogue List Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 9:37 am Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... I would love to attend this conference. I pray that you are moved by the Spirit to speak to your brother. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:21:41 To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Well, now Hanoch, you see you are a warrior on behalf of G-D and all of his children.? May G-D be with you as you deliver the message, and I'm convinced he will be. ? Your brother Ephraim ? Clyde ---------------- Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 ._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/7adc0fc3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 15:45:52 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:45:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA9E0919A8FB09-9AC-1D78@MBLK-D29.sysops.aol.com> Thanks Clyde...I realy appreciate the kind words of support. ??????????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: CBrown4465 at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 9:21 am Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Well, now Hanoch, you see you are a warrior on behalf of G-D and all of his children.? May G-D be with you as you deliver the message, and I'm convinced he will be. ? Your brother Ephraim ? Clyde Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. Attached Message From: YoungBarzel at aol.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:52:23 EDT Shalom L'Kulchem, ? ????For those of you who listened to me speak at the UIWU Annual Meeting in Charlotte, you heard me make it?clear that I wanted to dialogue with as many Ephramites as I possibly could.? Having vowed at the grave of Rachel Imeinu (our mother Rachel), that I would do everything I could to bring all of her children HOME, I have just been presented, Baruch HaShem, with another opportunity to try to do just that. ? ????I have been invited to speak at the Saturday night session of the Annual Conference of the Messianic Israel Alliance, this August in St. Louis, Missouri.? They are expecting between 1,000-1,500 people at this conference, and I hope, with G-d's help to bring my message of unity and dialogue to them; in addition to a program to increase Ephramite RETURN to the Land of Israel.? ? ????The conference is between August 8-11, although I will be leaving on Sunday the 10th.? In one of those great (non)coincidences of my life - I will be speaking on Tisha B'Av - the 9th Day of the month of Av, the date of the destruction of OUR Bet HaMikdash - Holy Temple.? ? ????I can?promise you only one thing - no one in that audience will ever forget what I will be sharing with them.... ? ????B'Ahavat Yehdua v'Yisrael, ????????????????????Hanoch Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/f46b7826/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 22:16:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:16:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Now we're making friends with the terrorists? Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, I just saw the article below, and I think it's just a taste of the evil that's about to happen...we CAN fight it, and we CAN win, with HaShem's help.... Hanoch Rice makes surprise visit to Beirut ASSOCIATED PRESS - Jun 16, 2008 Jerusalem Press US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice put an American stamp of approval Monday on plans for a new government in Lebanon that would increase the power of Hizbullah militants. Rice made an unannounced visit to Lebanon`s capital to meet with Western-backed leaders of an emerging coalition government, which the country`s factions are still negotiating over. The US regards Iranian- and Syrian-backed Hizbullah as a terrorist group and has no dealings with it. "Congratulations," Rice said as she shook hands with Michel Suleiman, the army chief elected last month as president. "We are all just very supportive of your presidency and your government." She introduced members of the US delegation to him as they sat down for their meeting at the presidential palace. On the flight from Israel, Rice told reporters her message would be one of US support for Lebanese democracy and that they would discuss "how the United States can support the institutions of a free Lebanon." Hizbullah, which is both a terror organization and a political party, gained veto power over the Beirut government in a compromise brokered last month. The deal ended 18 months of political paralysis, and followed bloody street clashes. The US would have preferred that Hizbullah not gain greater power, but has called the deal a necessary step for stability. The breakthrough deal, reached with the help of Arab mediators, allowed Lebanon`s parliament to elect a new president. Suleiman`s election brought palpable relief to Lebanese who feared their country was in danger of another civil war. It also ushered in a shift in the balance of power in favor of Iranian-backed Hizbullah. Rice`s visit came as US-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora was facing difficulties in forming a national unity government. For nearly three weeks, Saniora has been trying - so far without success - to form a Cabinet lineup acceptable to both the Western-backed parliamentary majority and the Hizbullah-led opposition. Rice is the first high-level US official to visit since the power sharing agreement was reached. She met Suleiman for the first time. Hizbullah`s ascendancy is a setback for the US, which had strongly backed the Lebanese government for three years and is concerned that Iran`s influence is spreading in the Middle East. Nevertheless, the US welcomed the developments in Lebanon and its diplomats and visiting congressmen attended Suleiman`s election. The US government has labeled Hizbullah a terrorist organization and blames it for the deaths of 241 US Marines in the bombing of their Beirut barracks in 1983, as well as for two attacks on the US Embassy in Beirut and the 1985 TWA hijacking that killed an American serviceman on board. Hizbullah repeatedly has denied such accusations and says it now opposes terrorism. Hizbullah and its allies fought a monthlong war with Israel in the summer of 2006 that was perceived by many Israelis as a cmpaign that ended in a stalemate, even though the organizatin lost more than 600 fighters. Political bickering prevented parliament from electing a president 19 times, leaving the country without a president since Emile Lahoud left office in November. Suleiman`s election is the first tangible step in the deal to end the political crisis which erupted in May into the worst violence since Lebanon`s 1975-90 civil war. The agreement was a victory for Hizbullah and its allies, who got their long-standing demand for veto power over government decisions. The Shi`ite terror group won that concession after it demonstrated its military power last month. Gunmen overran large parts of Muslim west Beirut after the government tried to rein Hizbullah in. The show of force left 81 people dead, including 14 Hizbullah fighters, and gave the guerrilla group new political leverage. The United States claims it also has provoked a backlash against Hizbullah among many Lebanese who cannot stomach the group`s use of force against fellow citizens. 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one _here_ (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/bdd6a2ef/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 16 22:42:09 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:42:09 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Interesting article from the N.Y. Times Message-ID: On Religion Lawyer-Turned-Nun Rises to Israel?s Defense * (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/us/14religion.html?_r=1&sq=lautt&st=nyt&oref=slogin&scp=1&pagewanted=all) * * * By _SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/f/samuel_g_freedman/index.html?inline=nyt-per) Published: June 14, 2008 Sister Ruth Lautt works from a single room on the 19th floor of the God Box. Such is the nickname for the Interchurch Center, the office building on Riverside Drive in Manhattan that is the closest thing to a _Vatican_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/r/roman_catholic_church/ index.html?inline=nyt-org) for America?s mainline Protestant denominations. Indeed, Sister Ruth?s fellow tenants include agencies of the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). _Skip to next paragraph_ (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/14/us/14religion.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=lautt&st=nyt&oref=slogin#secondParagraph) G. Paul Burnett/The New York Times Sister Ruth Lautt?s Christians for Fair Witness on the Middle East sometimes puts her at odds with her fellow Christians. Wearing the tapered suits left over from an earlier career in law and the crucifix of her more recent life as a Roman Catholic nun, Sister Ruth cuts an inconspicuous figure at the elevator bank. And on many of the issues that animate the mainline churches ? ecumenical outreach, social justice ? she makes a perfectly companionable neighbor. On the subject of _Israel_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/israel/index.html?in line=nyt-geo) , however, she qualifies as something more like the enemy within. Through the organization she founded three years ago, Christians for Fair Witness on the Middle East, Sister Ruth has frequently and sharply clashed with the very denominations housed under the God Box?s roof. When they have proposed divestment from Israel or more generally condemned its actions against _Palestinians_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/palestinians/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) , she has fought against those positions, vociferously speaking out for Israel?s right to self-defense and security. In the rancorous and relentless debate on the Middle East conflict, Sister Ruth stands as a sui generis player. She has little contact with Jewish advocacy groups, none with the _American Israel Public Affairs Committee_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/american_israel_publ ic_affairs_committee_aipac/index.html?inline=nyt-org) lobby. She disassociates herself from Christian Zionists of the theological and political right. Even while defending Israel?s defensive measures, including the separation barrier, she openly criticizes its occupation of the West Bank and laments Palestinian suffering. As for her methods, Fair Witness has specialized in behind-the-scenes infighting at denominational meetings. A former litigator with the famously aggressive Manhattan law firm of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, Sister Ruth has become both effective and controversial by working the floor at religious conventions, helping opponents of divestment draft motions, applying persuasion at the subcommittee and committee levels. ?We are informed by the Christian mandate to stand for justice and to raise our voices when we see someone being falsely accused,? Sister Ruth, 44, said in an interview at the God Box. ?The issue isn?t divestment. Divestment is a symptom, a symptom of bias against the state of Israel and an attempt to lay the blame on the shoulders of Israel.? Such a viewpoint collides with the political and theological direction of the mainline Protestant churches. Influenced by a version of liberation theology espoused by the Palestinian Christian activist Naim Ateek and his organization Sabeel, which likens Palestinians to the persecuted Jesus, all five of the mainline denominations in the United States (Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Evangelical Lutheran and United Church of Christ) have debated and in some cases adopted policies intended to bring direct or indirect economic pressure on Israel to compromise. Just last month, with Sister Ruth present as a nonvoting observer, the United Methodist Church defeated three divestment motions. At the same time, however, the church?s general conference approved several motions reiterating opposition to Israel?s settlements and military presence in the West Bank. To divestment proponents, Sister Ruth is an intrusive irritant. ?It?s inappropriate for an outside group like this one to come in to our conference and seek to influence internal decisions that reflect our values and our previously adopted positions on the occupation,? said Susanne Hoder, a member of the divestment task force of the New England Conference of the United Methodist Church. ?It?s an odd pursuit for a nun to spend so much of her time seeking to discredit Christians who are trying to protect other Christians who are being persecuted by the occupation.? Sister Ruth parts ways even with her own order of nuns, the Dominican sisters, in her stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On a Web site devoted to ?justice and peace,? the Dominican order formally opposes the separation barrier and calls for ?solidarity? with Palestinian Christians. Acknowledging the friction, Sister Ruth said: ?The overwhelming majority of these folks are extremely good people trying to be faithful to the Gospel call to justice. But they are mis- and under-informed when it comes to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and typically have only seen this conflict from one side.? Little in Sister Ruth?s professional background anticipated her current cause. Before she joined the Dominican order in 1996, she had earned a law degree from _New York University_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/new_york_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and worked at Skadden, Arps. Even after becoming a sister, she continued to litigate cases for a smaller firm on Long Island, close to the Dominican residence where she lived. Sister Ruth did, however, earn a master?s degree in Jewish-Christian Studies from _Seton Hall University_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/seton_hall_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in New Jersey, and participated in several ecumenical groups on Long Island. While she said that she received a divine call to advocate for Israel, that call coincided with a rising tide of protests against Israel for sending its army back into the West Bank?s major cities after a rash of suicide bombings in early 2002. The criticism of Israel from liberal churches grew even greater with construction of the separation barrier, which for portions of its route crosses into Palestinian territory. Sister Ruth made her first trip to Israel in 2003. (Since then she has returned five times, generally visiting the West Bank as well.) In December 2005, she incorporated Fair Witness and sent out its first news release. Although the group has a board with Roman Catholic and Protestant members, the operation is essentially all Sister Ruth, all the time. She raises the money for its $120,000 annual budget. She assembled its database on the Israel-Palestine conflict and the positions of mainline Protestant groups. She leads Protestant delegations on study tours to the region ? African-American clergy members will be going in August, Lutherans in November ? and gives her historical analysis of Zionism and Israel to Christian audiences. In a typical speech last November at _Boston College_ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/b/boston_college/index.html?inline= nyt-org) , she commended the liberal churches for ?a wholesome, Gospel-centered concern for Palestinian suffering, which is real,? and endorsed a two-state solution. But she also made the case for Israeli self-defense, even in the form of the separation barrier. ?I need to question how people feel they have the right in the name of peace and justice, to tell other people not to try to preserve their own lives,? she said at one point. ?You?re not obligated to lay down and die.? E-mail: sgfreedman at nytimes.com **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080616/b296fda3/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 17 04:17:53 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:17:53 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Lekarev Reort for today Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 14 Sivan 5768 June 17, 2008 Shalom Give thanks to the L-rd, for He is good, for His mercy endures for ever.' So let Israel now say, for His mercy endures for ever. Psalms 118:1-2 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/a51c1d05/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 08:04:13 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:04:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PRs re Confession Prayer In-Reply-To: <200806160418.m5G4I2c7031199@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806160418.m5G4I2c7031199@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806170604o6ba3b0f9ma299918c0cfc2cc3@mail.gmail.com> I'm not seing the updated prayer. Can someone please post? On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Time is speeding up, and we are hurtling toward what the prophet Amos tells > us to do: *"... prepare to meet thy G-d O Israel.*" *(Amos 4:12)*. There > is an important addition to the confession payer version III that I sent out > last week. I will be adding references to it, I guess for some time, so > that anyone who studies it may get the Scriptural bases for it. I think I > will put it up on my website, so that people can download the latest > reference updates to it. However the most significant addition to it, an > instruction, is what I received yesterday. > > Before that, I want to tell you about some of the important PRs that are > figured in it. These have been received some time ago. > First one is* all of Psalm 79:, *received 5-2-07. The most salient verse > that was pointed out to me was *verse 8* "*Oh, do not remember former > iniquities against us! Let Your tender mercies come speedily to meet us, > For we have been brought very low." > > *Right below it is: *verse 11: "Let the sighing of the prisoner come > before Thee; according to the greatness of Thine arm preserve Thou those > that are appointed to die; > *These speak for themselves. > > The another one is: *Jer. 16:19, *(cannot find the date for this one now): > > > "*O LORD, my Strength, and my Fortress, and my refuge in the day of > affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto Thee from the ends of the earth, > and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things > wherein there is no profit." *Of course you all know that these are no > just the heathen, but the target audience in the rest of the chapter > beforehand, Israel, who are counted as "Gentiles," Lo Ammi / "not my > people" of *Hos. 1:9. > > Psalm 78 *was a PR on 8-9, 92, and then again on 1-22-03, when I gave a > lecture on Joseph in the latter days. > > I also incorporated *Psalm 80,* (not a PR), which is written expressly for > Ephraim, Menashe and Benjamin. (Later I will have a song to send to all, > that we will be able to sing in all our Ephraimite congregations). > > In it *"Turn us again"* is mentioned three times, and that is why it is in > the closing three times. A side light on Psalm 80 is that Benjamin is > split between the Ten Tribes, mostly the Belgae and the Normans (according > to Yair Davidy). Another portion stayed with Yehudah. This may indicate > that some of the "the remnant' who stand in for the rest of Israel, may be > split between the two houses. Be that as it may, here are two more > important ones. On 6-11-08 in my morning prayer I saw just a flash the > letter TAV in orange. I mark my PRs in my Bible in orange. Later in the > afternoon prayer about how I should end this "confession prayer," I received > the PR of 172 -174. I knew this pertained to the Tav section of *Psalm > 119, verses 172-174.* Now I "saw" that I have to incorporate the tav > section in the ending, especially verses 172 - 174. > > While contemplating this PR, as I was writing it, the thought flashed into > my mind, that I should write this in the voice of first person singular, not > as the first person plural like the rest of the prayer. > > "*Our Redeemer, this is Ephraim?. "Let my soul live and it shall praise > Thee, and let Thy judgments help me."* > I "saw" that it should be written as such, since this is a prayer / > tefilah of one entity, one soul, that is referred to as such, "Ephraim." > > Now, here is what I received yesterday. After services , when everyone was > gone from our synagogue, I stayed behind to pray the Confession prayer. I > did not have it with me, but I just prayed what I knew from memory and my > own words. I "saw" the vision of a scene from inside a completely black > dark large room, in whose left corner I was. I was aware of others being > there, the edge of whom I saw, the front ones, huddled together in the right > corner of the field of my vision, opposite me. I could see them because > intense light (like sunlight came into the room, casting a narrow beam of > light through the door opening unto the floor of the large blackened room. > It was pointing a path to the door. There was no one in the front part of > the room, which was void of people. > > This scene speaks for itself. > then I received a PR, the last sentence* *(in red) of *Ex. 12:27:* *That > ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover, who passed over > the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, > and delivered our houses. *And the people bowed the head and worshipped." > My margin says "worshipped" should be translated "*prostrated." *Strong > says it means worshipping as in *"crouching." > > *This is exactly what I did to finish my prayer as such. Am persuaded > that *HaShem tells us to come to Him very humbly, and this prayer needs > some "prostrating" in it.... I think a whole lot of it., more than just a > perfunctory one.... this is all line with what He tells is to do in the > prophets, > http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer/Take-Words.html . > > I ask all of you to do likewise sometime, come before Him humbled, as > Ephraim, the prodigal son, prostrating himself before His Father as he comes > near. You will know when the Father of us all will speak to your mind, > heart and soul. > > Caution: If you do this, do it when you have open time before you, for you > may not be able to get up for a while.... > > *Steve > > *PS. *I invite all of you to respond, since that is what is says in* Mal > 3:16: > > "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD > hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him > for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name." > > *Please use private emails for small talk to each other e.g. yes, no. > > Am looking for the ABC news video clip on Yahoo, featuring the story of a > window washer that survived a 47 story fall. If you can find it, please > post the link so we can all see the miracle of G-d's saving arm. I saw it > Friday, but cannot find it again. > > http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4082765 > > > > > > > > > Of course the bases for this prayer are in *Lev. 26:40, Jer. 14:20, Lam. > 5:7, Hos. 5:15. *There are more, but these will do for the four corners > of it. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/ee61ecb4/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 08:06:44 2008 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:06:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] video Steve asked for Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0806170606p1aecb9ddncdef7987a00325b5@mail.gmail.com> I found this clip. Not ABC though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfYp_EvSbIg Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/41e1bf8d/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 09:00:34 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:00:34 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] TWO NATIONS JUDAH AND EPHRAIM Message-ID: Dear Friends: In the last days before the last of the last days who could have planned that there would be two nations one of Judah and one of Ephraim? Why is it more so than any other nation there is a calling out a contingent to stand in the Gap for a nation who does not know who they are? Of course the lost sheep of the house of Israel is scattered to the four winds. But is it possible that in the last days before the last of the last days Ephraim has become great as the prediction implied? Manasseh will be great but Ephraim shall be greater. Dear friends it is one thing for this great nation to not know who they are at the core of its beginnings, but it is another for the called out ones to not know. It was asked of the L-D, who should go up first to Zion. The answer was Judah which means praise should go up first. It happened back then, has it happened again? If it has then a contingent of Ephraim and the Israelites his companion must go up next. Are the two sticks two nations? And if they are then there is a national calling when Ephraim will join with Judah and push the nations back to the edge of the promised land that was allotted to the whole house of Israel. A careful study of the prophetic word of G-D reveals some predictions begin to be fulfilled, and continue to full-fill, and until they are filled-full. In 1948 a prediction began to be fulfilled, and it 1967 the prediction continued to be fulfilled, and will continue to be fulfilled until the prediction is filled-full. For Ephraim to be of help to Judah then Ephraim must be a great nation. Manasseh was great in his hey day, but Ephraim just as the prediction indicated has become greater. How great is great? Is it greater than any nation on the face of the earth? In Egypt a very great nation at the time Jacob crossed his hands and said Manasseh will be great but Ephraim will be greater. Was Ephraim to be greater that the greatness of Egypt at that time? Can G-D bring forth Ephraim to be the greatest nation in all the land? A land that was founded on G-D we trust? Ephraim has slipped from his beginnings, but nevertheless he is called on as a protector of Judah. In spite of Ephraim not knowing who he is, will he fulfill what G-D has called him to do? Both good and evil is prevalent in Ephraim, they have inherited lies and do not know it. But in there last days before the last of the last days a wake call is going out in the land of Ephraim. A witness must be proclaimed in the land of Ephraim. Will G-D destroy Ephraim without a witness going forth crying in the wilderness to return to the ancient path of the fathers? How many of the righteous returning to the ancient path would it take to stay the hand of G-D from punishing Ephraim? A thousand, ten thousand, how many my friends? Can you observe in Ezekiel 37, both a national Judah and Ephraim? Two sticks that are two nations? And can you observe a contingent as an election to go up to Zion? And then can you observe for the prediction to be filled-full that the lost sheep of the house of Israel will be drawn from the four winds? Remember a prediction begins to be fulfilled, and then continues to be fulfilled until it is filled-full. And why after a great many centuries has the Sanhedrin been raised up? And why all over this great nation a calling out is occurring? Is G-D moving toward where Judah will accept Ephraim and Ephraim will accept Judah and both as family? Could it happen my friends? Could a dialogue between Judah and Ephraim called out ones who know who they are? Can we pray that it will happen? For the sake of the promises to the fathers is the arm of the L-D able to make it happen? In these last days before the last of the last days there are things to occur that will be truly amazing. Remember my friends, the children of Israel marched around Jericho but it was G-D that brought the walls down. Can G-D fulfill his promises? What he declared to his servants the prophets speak loudly that not only can G-D, but the proof that he can began in 1948. And my last question? Why are eyes that did not see beginning to see, and ears that could not hear beginning to hear? Can we stand in the gap my friends while G-D adds tens of thousands to the number? Your friend CB **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/d3538e95/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Jun 17 12:55:29 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:55:29 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] PRs re Confession Prayer In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0806170604o6ba3b0f9ma299918c0cfc2cc3@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200806160418.m5G4I2c7031199@mail126c25.carrierzone.com> <1c8dbb6e0806170604o6ba3b0f9ma299918c0cfc2cc3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806171755.m5HHtZPa029878@mail201c25.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/deef299a/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Tue Jun 17 17:12:48 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:12:48 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate Message-ID: The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the Twin Towers in lowerManhattan and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from Illinois and Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his Illinois Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd. Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'? Is mainstream America now so liberal that we can't think? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'. George Washington **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/c3910be7/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Tue Jun 17 21:21:59 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:21:59 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Torah Portion Shelach Message-ID: Comments on Torah Reading Shelach (Numbers 13:1-15:41) These are some of my notes for the Torah portion this week. I have plenty of other thoughts but I wanted to send these out early and encourage you to read the portion this week. This week's Torah lesson begins with a story about Moses sending out leaders from every tribe (except Levi) to explore the land of Canaan. They are often referred to as "spies", but the Hebrew word "tur" literally means to seek out or explore. Their purpose is to bring back information - specific information requested by Moses and so in a way, they are to "spy out" the land. Chapter 13:4-15 gives the names of these leaders. Two of these leaders (interestingly enough...one from Judah and one from Ephraim) bring back a good report while the others give an "unfavorable report" (see 14:32). They are to search out and report on the following: 1. What is the land like? 2. Are the people weak or strong? 3. Are they few or many? 4. Is the land good or bad? 5. Are the towns walled or not? 6. Are there trees or not? And finally they are told to "be bold" and bring back some of the fruit of the land (13:17-20). The reconnaissance mission takes them 40 days. Caleb, the leader representing the tribe of Judah and Hoshea, the leader representing the tribe of Ephraim (whose name is changed by Moses to Yehoshua - 14:16) bring back the good report. There is a lot of clamor in the camp as the "spies" relate what they saw. Caleb quiets the people before Moses and tries to encourage the people to take possession, but again this week we find the people complaining and even desiring death or a return to Egypt rather than the prospect of pushing onward into the land of promise. I find that the allure of what one knows can be very distracting to people in the quest. The unknown is not the popular choice for most, and slavery can be difficult to shake off. People can grow comfortable in the most uncomfortable situations. The valiant two give the people their best arguments to move ahead. They tell the Israelites that the LORD is with them and warn the people not to "rebel against the LORD", but this only brought them threats of stoning (14:5-10)! God is angered by the poor choice of the people and wants to destroy them, disinherit them and start over with Moses (14:11-12). Moses intercedes for the people reminding God of His very nature. Notice what he says - "Let the power of the LORD be great in the way that you promised when you spoke, saying: The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love (hesed), forgiving iniquity and transgressing, but by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children to the third and the fourth generation." This becomes a repeated description of God throughout the Bible (see Nehemiah 9:17, Psalm 86:15, 103:8, 145:8, Joel 2:13, and Jonah 4:2). One should study these words closely. God listens to the voice of Moses and agrees to forgive (14:20) but then says something quite remarkable. He swears that "the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD". We read elsewhere of this global mission. I understand this to mean that the taking of the land was to be the beginning of something incredible. Israel's mission would be manifested from this promised land. >From there they would become a Light unto the nations! Here we read that the "glory of the LORD" would fill the earth. Notice the following passages from the prophets: KJV Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. KJV Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. This is the goal and meaning of history - it is the manifestation of God's Kingdom on earth. God is persuaded by the intercession of Moses, but the penalty of unfaithfulness will be paid in full. These leaders had "spied out the land for forty days" and brought back a bad report and so they would now bear their iniquity - a year for every day! They would learn God's displeasure and would die in the wilderness. Ironically, this is what they had requested (14:2). Chapter 15 describes various offerings that were to be offered when they did finally cross into the land. In 15:14-16, we read that the alien who resides with Israel shall do as the Israelites do. They are to have and keep the same ordinances as every natural Israelite. See also verse 29 for the same idea dealing with "atonement". The torah reading ends with a passage requiring the wearing of "fringes - tzittzit" on the corners of their garments(15:37-41). See also Deuteronomy 22:12. This Torah reading offers some insights into what is expected of those who find themselves in a leadership role among the people of God. Our faith in God must be strong. Even when things look ominous, we must keep our eyes on God and not allow circumstances or situations to influence our walk with God, or keep us from fulfilling His commands. We should seek to intercede for the people of God. Moses learned to reason with God based upon "knowing" his character. This week's lesson contains an excellent description of God's character. We should learn it by heart! We also learn that God gives us challenges that He will help us through. These may seem impossible, but they often put us in a place to be a light to those around us. Have faith and be bold. Stand on God's word and you cannot fail. A valuable lesson is communicated in this Torah portion that is often overlooked. Forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our sins. We must often bear our iniquity - and this sometimes takes years to play its course. I hope that you will take the time to read and study this Torah portion. There is much to be gleaned and I have only scratched the surface. Shalom and good reading! Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/bdce36f6/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Tue Jun 17 21:46:14 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:46:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Greatest Threat to Israel Message-ID: Laila tov L'Kulchem, Even if this wasn't the third straight 14 hour day at work, there would STILL be no need to elaborate on this...it says it all, saddly. Hanoch String of disastrous decisions shows that government is our greatest threat Martin Sherman - May 28, 2008 Ynet News It is difficult to grasp. It is even difficult to accept. But it is no longer possible to deny the almost unthinkable truth. Today the People of Israel and the State of Israel are facing a "clear and present danger" that is far more immediate ? and arguably no less lethal ? than any of the perils brewing in Tehran: The government of Israel. There are doubtless those who would protest that such a harsh accusation is outrageously unreasonable. But they must confront the facts. They must not be allowed to ignore the undeniable: It was the government of Israel that threw caution to the wind and ? in spite of dire warning as to the consequences - initiated the Oslo process which brought carnage to the streets of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa? It was the government of Israel that ? in spite of the dire warnings as to the consequences - foisted the disengagement plan on a misinformed, misled public and brought death and destruction to the civilian population in the South It is the government of Israel that sits idly by while the forces of radical Islam in Gaza stockpile deadly ordnance, enhance the methods of their delivery, expand the ranks of their forces, and upgrade the level of their training - with the same indifferent impotence as it did with regard to the forces of radical Islam in the north. And now, the government of Israel has, what can only be described as brazen impudence, to inform its citizens that it is planning to expose them to even more ? and equally easily foreseeable - dangers by considering the transfer of the Golan to Syrian control. Indeed, if even the upbeat assessments of the Israeli representatives at the renewed peace talks are accurate, the notion of withdrawing from the Golan is still unacceptably rash and wildly irresponsible. For Assad's current sincerity (or lack thereof) is entirely irrelevant in appraising the proposed evacuation. What is vital is not whether he appears genuine in his intent to honor any agreement with Israel, but whether he will be able to do so over time in the future. As the Gaza experience shows, regime changes can no longer be dismissed as a mere figment of the right-wing's demented imagination, nor as nothing more than rejectionist scare tactics. They must be considered a tangible possibility and factored in the decision-making process by responsible government. There is an array of crucial questions that have to be given convincing answers before the possibility of relinquishing any element of Israeli control in the Golan is even countenanced: * What would be the Israeli response should Assad's minority regime be overthrown by radical successors who repudiate the agreement with Israel? In fact, the very agreement with the "Zionist entity" may be the catalyst for such a coup d'?tat - especially if Assad was sincere in honoring it! * Moreover, still under the assumption of "Assadian" sincerity, if the Syrian ruler did indeed repudiate his ties with Tehran and the Hizbullah as demanded by Israel, who would keep him safe from vengeful Shi'ite wrath? The fate of Rafik Hariri in Beirut and Imad Mugniyah in Damascus demonstrate that in the Middle East neither high public office nor clandestine lifestyle can protect an intended victim from a determined assassin. * However, an actual overthrow of the current regime is not essential. If internal pressures, mounted from rejectionist elements, force Assad to retract all or some of his obligations, what is Israel's contingency plan? What would be Israel?s response to a gradual renewal of support for Hizbullah and ties with Iran? * What if more clandestine Syrian "strategic" installations were uncovered? Could they be attacked - or only politely protested? * What if "militants" established a presence in the demilitarized Golan ? with or without the tacit collusion of Damascus - and rained rockets down on the north as happened in the south? * How does Israel plan to operate the national water system should the Syrians expropriate the water resources of the Golan and prevent them from reaching the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee,) or pollute them before they do? Water experts have consistently warned that this would have catastrophic effects for the country's water supply. * Media reports indicate that nearly all senior security officials - apart from the head of the Mossad - support the evacuation of the Golan, allegedly because otherwise the Syrians would be compelled to initiate hostilities. This leaves one to wonder why if the IDF cannot deter Syrian aggression with their capital Damascus in easy striking distance, how on earth will it do so when it is not?! Is there seriously any IDF general who believes that Israel's military position would be improved if the IDF deployed in the Galilee and the Hula valley rather than on Mt. Hermon and commanding ridges that control the approaches to Damascus? * And then of course there's the cost: With Washington openly unenthusiastic about dealings with Damascus and burdened by huge military costs in Iraq and Afghanistan, where will Israel find the tens of billions of dollars that such a measure would require? For example, for evacuation of towns, villages, and farms; for the relocation, rehabilitation and compensation of their residents; for the evacuation of the military camps and installations etc. * What sacrifices should be made to allow such huge allocations of resources? Social welfare cuts? Slashes in university budgets? Cancellation of infrastructure projects? Withdrawal of medical services? How would the huge diversion of funds be possible with out siphoning off resources needed to deal with the Iranian threat? The Israeli public must insist on convincing answers to all these questions before any negotiations on the Golan are even contemplated; it must demand they be provided before even considering disturbing the status quo on the most tranquil border the country has had for three and a half decades. In a democracy, the citizenry is ultimately responsible for its own fate - and the citizens of this country have learnt, by bitter experience, that they can no longer unconditionally entrust their security to their government's judgment. It has been found too faulty too often. 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one _here_ (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/0e5828c8/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 22:13:57 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:13:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Torah Portion Shelach In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awfully terrific for just "scratching the surface," Ross!!!!! Thank you so much, Avigail/Pat From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:21 PM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org ; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Torah Portion Shelach Comments on Torah Reading Shelach (Numbers 13:1-15:41) These are some of my notes for the Torah portion this week. I have plenty of other thoughts but I wanted to send these out early and encourage you to read the portion this week. This week's Torah lesson begins with a story about Moses sending out leaders from every tribe (except Levi) to explore the land of Canaan. They are often referred to as "spies", but the Hebrew word "tur" literally means to seek out or explore. Their purpose is to bring back information - specific information requested by Moses and so in a way, they are to "spy out" the land. Chapter 13:4-15 gives the names of these leaders. Two of these leaders (interestingly enough...one from Judah and one from Ephraim) bring back a good report while the others give an "unfavorable report" (see 14:32). They are to search out and report on the following: 1. What is the land like? 2. Are the people weak or strong? 3. Are they few or many? 4. Is the land good or bad? 5. Are the towns walled or not? 6. Are there trees or not? And finally they are told to "be bold" and bring back some of the fruit of the land (13:17-20). The reconnaissance mission takes them 40 days. Caleb, the leader representing the tribe of Judah and Hoshea, the leader representing the tribe of Ephraim (whose name is changed by Moses to Yehoshua - 14:16) bring back the good report. There is a lot of clamor in the camp as the "spies" relate what they saw. Caleb quiets the people before Moses and tries to encourage the people to take possession, but again this week we find the people complaining and even desiring death or a return to Egypt rather than the prospect of pushing onward into the land of promise. I find that the allure of what one knows can be very distracting to people in the quest. The unknown is not the popular choice for most, and slavery can be difficult to shake off. People can grow comfortable in the most uncomfortable situations. The valiant two give the people their best arguments to move ahead. They tell the Israelites that the LORD is with them and warn the people not to "rebel against the LORD", but this only brought them threats of stoning (14:5-10)! God is angered by the poor choice of the people and wants to destroy them, disinherit them and start over with Moses (14:11-12). Moses intercedes for the people reminding God of His very nature. Notice what he says - "Let the power of the LORD be great in the way that you promised when you spoke, saying: The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love (hesed), forgiving iniquity and transgressing, but by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children to the third and the fourth generation." This becomes a repeated description of God throughout the Bible (see Nehemiah 9:17, Psalm 86:15, 103:8, 145:8, Joel 2:13, and Jonah 4:2). One should study these words closely. God listens to the voice of Moses and agrees to forgive (14:20) but then says something quite remarkable. He swears that "the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD". We read elsewhere of this global mission. I understand this to mean that the taking of the land was to be the beginning of something incredible. Israel's mission would be manifested from this promised land. From there they would become a Light unto the nations! Here we read that the "glory of the LORD" would fill the earth. Notice the following passages from the prophets: KJV Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. KJV Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. This is the goal and meaning of history - it is the manifestation of God's Kingdom on earth. God is persuaded by the intercession of Moses, but the penalty of unfaithfulness will be paid in full. These leaders had "spied out the land for forty days" and brought back a bad report and so they would now bear their iniquity - a year for every day! They would learn God's displeasure and would die in the wilderness. Ironically, this is what they had requested (14:2). Chapter 15 describes various offerings that were to be offered when they did finally cross into the land. In 15:14-16, we read that the alien who resides with Israel shall do as the Israelites do. They are to have and keep the same ordinances as every natural Israelite. See also verse 29 for the same idea dealing with "atonement". The torah reading ends with a passage requiring the wearing of "fringes - tzittzit" on the corners of their garments(15:37-41). See also Deuteronomy 22:12. This Torah reading offers some insights into what is expected of those who find themselves in a leadership role among the people of God. Our faith in God must be strong. Even when things look ominous, we must keep our eyes on God and not allow circumstances or situations to influence our walk with God, or keep us from fulfilling His commands. We should seek to intercede for the people of God. Moses learned to reason with God based upon "knowing" his character. This week's lesson contains an excellent description of God's character. We should learn it by heart! We also learn that God gives us challenges that He will help us through. These may seem impossible, but they often put us in a place to be a light to those around us. Have faith and be bold. Stand on God's word and you cannot fail. A valuable lesson is communicated in this Torah portion that is often overlooked. Forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our sins. We must often bear our iniquity - and this sometimes takes years to play its course. I hope that you will take the time to read and study this Torah portion. There is much to be gleaned and I have only scratched the surface. Shalom and good reading! Ross K. Nichols www.RootsofFaith.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080617/c4cb9e8e/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Wed Jun 18 10:39:04 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:39:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Dialogue Friends, I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below). I thought somebody would say something about it. Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I. In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all. For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time. If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12. With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type]. Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list. I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde, and he backs what is being told. We shouldn?t drop this subject. It is too critical. If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? Any comments? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written. Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book). That is an open admission. It is ?in your face.? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey?? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California. He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ?Hi Gary! Thanks for your many e-mails. This one is really scary! I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes". I will pass this on as I ask the question. Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States? Is the President unaware of who this guy is? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy? Have we become impudent?....? Al Carrozzo Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage??? Can?t something be done? Where are the Watchmen? Who is delivering the message? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). What are we looking at? Why is this phenomena happening? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once. Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days. Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction. There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA: 70 Evidences). Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA. The parallels begin to jump out at you. Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq, going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc. It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment. On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim. The nations around the world want Obama. Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama. What do they know, that we don?t know? His middle name is Hussein. Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? There is so much more. Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim. And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not. That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim). How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate? That?s another story?. Gary P.S. There is a ?work? to be done. Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11. The full context for those texts is most interesting. In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.? Could this be on Mount Zion? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the Twin Towers in lowerManhattan and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from Illinois and Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his Illinois Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd. Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'? Is mainstream America now so liberal that we can't think? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'. George Washington _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient HYPERLINK "http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007" \nused cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080618/aa06bc4f/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 16:36:18 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <578928.31477.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Gary & Clyde, ? Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we just make our proclamation --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:39 AM Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all.? ? For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldn?t drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is ?in your face.?? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey??? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? ?Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....?? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage???? Can?t something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we don?t know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? That?s another story?. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a ?work? to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.?? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the? Twin? Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the? United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from? Illinois?and? Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in? Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in? America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in? Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in? Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in? Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving? Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his? Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in? Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in? U.S.?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to? Darfur?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting? America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in? America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The? United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the? United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for? America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstream America?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080618/2e2374ed/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 16:37:39 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <578928.31477.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <328200.91442.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> accidentally mashed a wrong button and it sent before I finished the last line.... ? ...and everyone will pray and decide how to act. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:36 PM Hey Gary & Clyde, ? Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we just make our proclamation --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:39 AM Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all.? ? For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldn?t drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is ?in your face.?? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey??? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? ?Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....?? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage???? Can?t something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we don?t know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? That?s another story?. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a ?work? to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.?? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the? Twin? Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the? United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from? Illinois?and? Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in? Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in? America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in? Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in? Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in? Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving? Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his? Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in? Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in? U.S.?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to? Darfur?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting? America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in? America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The? United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the? United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for? America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstream America?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080618/d77a5107/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Thu Jun 19 00:01:24 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:01:24 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Message-ID: I am reading along Gary. You say in your note: "This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book). That is an open admission. It is ?in your face.? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey?? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it)." I wanted to verify your comment above. It is being quoted (or misquoted) around the world on various lists and forwarded emails and so I bought the book. It is called "The Audacity of Hope". On page 261, paragraph 2 it states: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakastani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." It is essential that people get the quote in its entirety. I want no one to draw any conclusions on my personal stand on the Obama issue or any other political matter as a result of this post. I am a man of context and so felt that I should provide the text in question...in context. Shalom to you all, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/2f2a4953/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 19 00:06:23 2008 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:06:23 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <061920080506.19228.4859E94E00095F5900004B1C22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hello all, I feel I need to offer a reminder here. While I certainly am not contesting the validity of, or the need for, these arguments (indeed I share much in the way of opinion and leaning in regards to what is said in the previous statements), I think it might be time for us to review Ross's introduction to the Dialogue list on the Roots of Faith website (www.rootsoffaith.org). It may not be a popular position to take but I think it is possible to negate the purpose of the Dialogue if we are not careful. Please search your own hearts and tell me if I am out of line. I'm not saying that we should not be discussing these issues nor am I contesting their relevance to Ephraim's duty. I'm just wondering if the Dialogue is the place to discuss them. Shalom. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Gary Arvidson" : -------------- Dialogue Friends, I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below). I thought somebody would say something about it. Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I. In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all. For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time. If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12. With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type]. Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list. I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde, and he backs what is being told. We shouldn?t drop this subject. It is too critical. If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? Any comments? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written. Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book). That is an open admission. It is ?in your face.? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey?? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California. He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ?Hi Gary! Thanks for your many e-mails. This one is really scary! I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes". I will pass this on as I ask the question. Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States? Is the President unaware of who this guy is? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy? Have we become impudent?....? Al Carrozzo Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage??? Can?t something be done? Where are the Watchmen? Who is delivering the message? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). What are we looking at? Why is this phenomena happening? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once. Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days. Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction. There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA: 70 Evidences). Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA. The parallels begin to jump out at you. Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq, going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc. It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment. On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim. The nations around the world want Obama. Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama. What do they know, that we don?t know? His middle name is Hussein. Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? There is so much more. Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim. And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not. That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim). How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate? That?s another story?. Gary P.S. There is a ?work? to be done. Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11. The full context for those texts is most interesting. In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.? Could this be on Mount Zion? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the Twin Towers in lowerManhattan and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from Illinois and Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his Illinois Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd. Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'? Is mainstream America now so liberal that we can't think? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'. George Washington Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/fbc1f883/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Jun 19 06:27:22 2008 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <889999.70991.qm@web37505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Good morning, ? I guess I'm from the tribe of benjamin, because I for one cannot silently and idlely stand by while our beloved Ephraim is suffering. Have we brought this on ourselves? Absolutely, while believers and so-called Christians have stood idlely by! Why doesn't the media say or do anything? Rupert Murdoch and other owners are members of the CFR, who are in allegience with those that control. FOX News is right there with the rest....who pushed the Iraq war more than FOX News? Like I mentioned in a previous email, the president is already picked by those in power. People think that their vote counts...but.... In the last election, Ohio was caught right in the middle of voter machine fraud, and it was admitted they were tampered with. How easy is it to tamper with computers? That this man is a closet Muslim doesn't leave much doubt, but there has been 50 plus years of coming to this point. Everyone has to be so politically correct that we don't dare speak out, and if you do, with the PATRIOT Act, you can now be classified as a terrorist, and have no rights. Yahshua said that we are to "occupy until He comes", and I for one am not standing idlely by. I am taking action by preparing myself, and making a difference where I'm at. I can respect those that want to be passive, but it's not in my blood or genes!! Let's sound the alarm, and speak out what this man Obama is all about. Now on?a brighter note, don't let this "Jacob's trouble" we're going through get you down! Remember, our Saviour and Redeemer of Israel said that "He that endures until the end shall be saved"! ? "For YHWH hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation. This is My rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it . I will abundantly nless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout?aloud for joy. There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for Mine anointed. His enemies will I clothe with shame: but?upon himself shall his crown flourish."??Psalm 132:13-18 Paul-Eugene Miller Cell: 740.504.2612 >From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. -- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 11:39 AM Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all.? ? For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldn?t drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is ?in your face.?? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey??? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? ?Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....?? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage???? Can?t something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we don?t know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? That?s another story?. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a ?work? to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.?? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the? Twin? Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the? United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from? Illinois?and? Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in? Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in? America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in? Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in? Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in? Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving? Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his? Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in? Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in? U.S.?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to? Darfur?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting? America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in? America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The? United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the? United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for? America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstream America?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/d4708aa9/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 19 07:15:03 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <328200.91442.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <533527.79901.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Here's an alternate view concerning the "Anti-Christ". Although I now need to revise my dates to coincide with Gary & Clydes book on the 70 weeks, you can read the rest of this article here: www.onhigh.org/Antichrist.htm?... ? ------------------------------------- ? ??????????? The Original Apostolic Teachers understood "The Law and The Prophets." However, Christian Teachers of today are still deluded by? 'the Man of Sin' and his demonic doctrines. The so-called "Anti-Christ" is the Roman Church which high-jacked the New Testament and twisted its message during the 1st to 3rd centuries. It solidified it's hold over the Roman Empire during the 4th century through the Swords of the Roman Emperors. ??????????? During the middle of the 1st century, Paul said, "let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away [apostasy] come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, he that opposes and exalts himself against all that is called G-d or that is worshipped; so that he sits in the temple of G-d, setting himself forth as G-d [a G-d]. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know that which restrains, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restrains now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Yeshua shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his coming;"?? 2Th 2:3-8 brackets and emphasis mine 'the man of sin'? - is a personification1 of the false religious system - The Roman Catholic System; which was to arise [be revealed] after?'he who restrains' was taken out of the way.? This restraining or hindering person is simply a? personification of? the? The Netsarim Community -?James, The Apostles & Elders, Paul, Timothy, Luke, etc. ??????????? After the murderous persecution of the Jewish followers of Yeshua ben David, the Netsar, the weakened Jewish Netsarim Communities could hardly survive in its original pristine form. Thousands of the Spirit-filled Jewish Netsarim leadership were murdered by The Roman Beast2. Afterward, the Communities were much more easily infiltrated and contaminated by this 'man of sin', which is also called the False Prophet,3? [the Roman Catholic System]. The Lord Yeshua will destroy it at his Coming!! Until then, Elohim says, 'O Come Out of Her, O My People, for the time has come to judge Babylon.' Much more to say about these things - just not enough time to write them down presently. _____________________________ 1? Personification = Representing an abstract quality or idea as a person or creature. Personification is a common literary device throughout scripture. One will find the same devise being used by The LORD to speak to us in dreams and visions. 2 The Imperial Roman Empire (Revelation 13:1). 3 The Roman Catholic System and its daughter denominations (Revelation 13:11 ---------------------------------------------------------------- ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy ? ? --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:37 PM accidentally mashed a wrong button and it sent before I finished the last line.... ? ...and everyone will pray and decide how to act. ? Love & Prayers, ? Tracy --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Tracy Osborne wrote: From: Tracy Osborne Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:36 PM Hey Gary & Clyde, ? Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we just make our proclamation --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:39 AM Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today I?m what you might call, ?Blown Away? by it all.? ? For me, this article was the ?final straw? ? only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, I?m pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? I?ve discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldn?t drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carroll?s article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is ?in your face.?? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey??? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? ?Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....?? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: ??Where is the outrage???? Can?t something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: ??among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be?? (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: ??I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard?? (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: ??The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?? (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and ?feel? of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we don?t know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim?s identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? That?s another story?. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a ?work? to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a ?dig? in relation to ?preparing the way.?? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? as it relates to the work of the ?watchmen? (Isa 62:6). ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the? Twin? Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the? United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from? Illinois?and? Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in? Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in? America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in? Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in? Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in? Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving? Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his? Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in? Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in? U.S.?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to? Darfur?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting? America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in? America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The? United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the? United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for? America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstream America?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/7773c3cd/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Thu Jun 19 07:35:16 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:35:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Where is my ammo? Message-ID: <485A5284.1040609@gninc.ca> 2. 3. Search Lazer Beams It has been a real blessing for me to follow the many different slants of each individual's unopposed view of matters, human tendencies, or really as in most cases likely where we have been tested and tried in our faith, coming closer to HaShem as we go. I as an individual seeker thought I was so sincere, and wanted to share, ( or was it to secretly show off ) some of what the results of my life long search had been, by introducing some five books that i have written, or at least mostly was responsible of compiling them. It feels good to get a warm response to them. And it feels good to the soul when I realize they may not have all that much content, they where my own learning events. But now after praying "Confessing Our Sins and the Sins of Our fathers A Prayer for Ephraim" most every day since it was introduced to the dialogue, it becomes rather stale to me, ALL THE EFFORT I have made in the past, yes, I was searching for honest truth, I don't feel guilty for that. And it all served to bring me closer to my Maker. But a question arises as I pray this prayer for myself, just how much was I aware or really concerned that I really had ammunition along with it. How much did my training as a good soldier in HaShem's army help if I appear from the outside that I am equipped with all the battle gear, but did not do anything with enough of a sincere prayer of faith "the ammunition" but how much of it was a mere show on the outside of what I was. I have often wondered why does it have to go so rough for the Jewish people as a whole, but they themselves teach me, it is for their own correction that the enemy is persecuting them. Likewise if the USA will make the stupid blunder of electing a wrong candidate for running the country, that may just be the lesson we need to learn, do we have ammunition along to this war? Do I have ammunition along to this war I am facing? Cornie *Where's the ammo? * /Our dear friend Tzvi Sheinkin (the Hero from Hendon) from London writes:/ // Toy%20Soldier[1] In 1983, I was privileged to serve as a volunteer on an IDF base. Effectively, I was no more than a "toy soldier" (see photo, left), working in the warehouses, checking equipment, cleaning and loading M16 clips and playing a lot of frisbee. During the two months I was there, I learned a number of things: 1) An army base is no place for a woman - religious or otherwise; 2) How to paint. I'm an expert in black and green - if you ever need anything painted in those colours, then I'm your man! 3) How to shoot. I was taught how to use an M4 (aka short M16) and if you ever feel threatened by empty Coke cans, then do give me a call. I promise they'll never bother you again! (It would have been nice if they had given me some ear plugs: I lost my hearing for 3 days afterwards!!) One particular incident stands out in my mind. One of the soldiers, Capt. G, was courtmartialed for making a very big mistake. Capt. G was responsible for seeing Armored personnel carriers to the Jordan border. Due to an oversight, he forgot to send the ammunition. What this meant was that for a whole week, the unit was patrolling the border, resplendent in their APCs with their heavy machine guns - but with no bullets! Let's think about this for a moment. You have soldiers who have trained hard for months on end. These were men who were totally committed to defending the Jewish People - yet, if G-d forbid, terrorists had appeared, not only would they have been sitting ducks themselves, but the Jews in the settlements were now defenceless too. The training, the guns, the bravery - it would all count for nothing. Our Rabbis tell us that when we speak /loshon hara - /slander and evil speech - we ruin our prayers. We render them useless. We might look the part and sound the part, but our words do not reach their target. It's as if we're firing blanks. That means that not only can we not daven for ourselves, but, G-d forbid, when we pour out our hearts for a family member or friend, we're not going to hit the target. That's why loshon hara is so serious (as is talking during /chazaras hashatz/ or during Torah reading.) Our *only* weapon is Prayer - so let's not shoot ourselves in the foot! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/91afbaae/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 6a00d8345263cd69e200e553796bcc8834-350wi Type: image/jpeg Size: 20826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/91afbaae/attachment.jpe From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:06:25 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <533527.79901.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <328200.91442.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <533527.79901.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Tracy for this website and article. Great information in there. Chris On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Tracy Osborne wrote: > Here's an alternate view concerning the "Anti-Christ". Although I now > need to revise my dates to coincide with Gary & Clydes book on the 70 weeks, > you can read the rest of this article here: www.onhigh.org/Antichrist.htm ... > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > > > The Original Apostolic Teachers understood "The Law and The > Prophets." However, Christian Teachers of today are still deluded by *'the > Man of Sin'* and his demonic doctrines. The so-called "Anti-Christ" is the > Roman Church which high-jacked the New Testament and twisted its message > during the 1st to 3rd centuries. It solidified it's hold over the Roman > Empire during the 4th century through the Swords of the Roman Emperors. > > During the middle of the 1st century, Paul said, > > "let no man beguile you in any wise: for *it will not be*, except the *falling > away* *[apostasy]* come first, and *the man of sin* be revealed, the son > of perdition, he that opposes and exalts himself against all that is called > G-d or that is worshipped; so that *he sits in the temple* of G-d, setting > himself forth as G-d [a G-d]. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with > you, I told you these things? And now ye know *that which restrains*, to > the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For *the mystery of > lawlessness doth already work:* only *there is* *one that restrains now*, > *until he be taken out of the way*. And *then* shall be revealed the > lawless one, whom the Lord Yeshua shall slay with the breath of his mouth, > and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his coming;" *2Th 2:3-8 > brackets and emphasis mine* > > *'the man of sin' -** is a personification*1* of the false religious > system - The Roman Catholic System; *which was to arise [be revealed] > after *'he who restrains' *was taken out of the way*. This restraining or > hindering person is simply a personification of the The Netsarim > Community - James, The Apostles & Elders, Paul, Timothy, Luke, etc.* > > After the murderous persecution of the Jewish followers of > Yeshua ben David, *the Netsar*, the weakened *Jewish Netsarim Communities*could hardly survive in its original pristine form. Thousands of the > Spirit-filled Jewish Netsarim leadership were murdered by The Roman Beast2 > *.* Afterward, the Communities were much more easily infiltrated and > contaminated by this 'man of sin', which is also called the False Prophet, > 3 [the Roman Catholic System]. The Lord Yeshua will destroy it at his > Coming!! Until then, Elohim says, 'O Come Out of Her, O My People, for the > time has come to judge Babylon.' > > Much more to say about these things - just not enough time to write them > down presently. > > _____________________________ > > 1 *Personification = Representing an abstract quality or idea as a person > or creature. Personification is a common literary device throughout > scripture. One will find the same devise being used by The LORD to speak to > us in dreams and visions. * > > 2 *The Imperial Roman Empire (Revelation 13:1).* > > 3 *The Roman Catholic System and its daughter denominations (Revelation > 13:11* > > *----------------------------------------------------------------* > > ** > > Love & Prayers, > > > > Tracy > > > > > > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, Tracy Osborne * wrote: > > From: Tracy Osborne > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:37 PM > > > accidentally mashed a wrong button and it sent before I finished the > last line.... > > > > ...and everyone will pray and decide how to act. > > > > Love & Prayers, > > > > Tracy > > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, Tracy Osborne * wrote: > > From: Tracy Osborne > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 4:36 PM > > Hey Gary & Clyde, > > > > Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us > to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show > hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist > perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and > more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can > quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we > just make our proclamation > > --- On *Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson * wrote: > > From: Gary Arvidson > Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 10:39 AM > > Dialogue Friends, > > > > I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich > Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. The article > is entitled: *The Jihad Candidate* (see below). I thought somebody would > say something about it. Maybe you are all as *overwhelmed* with this > perspective as am I. In fact, today I'm what you might call, "Blown Away" > by it all. > > > > For me, this article was the "final straw" ? only because I (with others) > have been following this man for some time. If this is all true, then can > you begin to imagine the level of deception involved? This would be *Great > Deception*, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of > 2Th 2:9-12. > > > > With this text, I'm pointing to (#1) *Magnitude*, and not (#2) *Genre*[kind, sort, type]. Hence, the > *magnitude*, *along with the silence* urges me to say something here to > the list. I've discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is > being told. We shouldn't drop this subject. It is too critical. If > ignored, will it go away ? or bite us? Any comments? > > > > *Can you even begin to imagine such a thing* as being proposed by Rich > Carroll? You can check him out on *Google*, and see the various reactions > to what has been written. Carroll's article shows what a completely tragic > situation is developing before our eyes ? and all the while ? people are > going along blindly ? and being swayed by the rhetoric ? and the emotion of > the moment. > > > > This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has > said: "?if things get ugly, I'll side with the Muslims?" (re: page 261 of 2 > nd book). That is an open admission. It is "in your face." How does > that make you feel ? especially when you are called "Whitey"? To a very > large part, "Whitey" can be interpreted as "Ephraim" (though most Americans > wouldn't know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it). > > > > Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful > businessman from California . He also read the article by Carroll, and > responded to me with: > > > > "Hi Gary ! Thanks for your many e-mails. This one is really scary! I > have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer > in their "causes". I will pass this on as I ask the question. Where is the > outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ? Is the > President unaware of who this guy is? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with > the ability to expose this guy? Have we become impudent?...." Al Carrozzo > > > > Like Al said: "?Where is the outrage?"? Can't something be done? Where > are the Watchmen? Who is delivering the message? After all, we are told by > the prophet: "?among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall > surely be?" (Ho 5:9). > > > > What are we looking at? Why is this phenomena happening? What is coming > down upon the land of Ephraim ? Remember that *Ephraim* is mentioned *by > name* fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned > once. Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days. > > > > Here is more that Hosea has said: "?I will chastise them, as their > congregation has heard?" (Hos 7:12). Hosea goes on to say: "?The days of > visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it?" > (Hos 9:7). > > > > Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ? that the nation of > Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction. There is plenty > of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet:* Ephraim > = USA : 70 Evidences*). Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ? and > think, USA . The parallels begin to jump out at you. > > > > Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ? and think about Iraq , going it > alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations > against you, etc. It is the same essence and "feel" of fulfillment. On > this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ? in the overall sense ? > to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim. > > > > The nations around the world want Obama. Every Muslim organization in the > world supports Obama. What do they know, that we don't know? His middle > name is Hussein. Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention > Rodham? There is so much more. > > > > Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent > Ephraim. And you know who you are ? whereas many millions of Americans do > not. That is why the *Watchmen of Ephraim* had better get going on > getting out to the world, the message of Ephraim's identity (and therefore, > what is coming upon Ephraim). > > > > How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and *The Jihad > Candidate*? That's another story?. > > > > Gary > > > > P.S. There is a "work" to be done. Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11. The full > context for those texts is most interesting. In Isa 62:10 there is the > mention of a *"dig"* in relation to "preparing the way." Could this be on > Mount Zion ? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ? > as it relates to the work of the "watchmen" (Isa 62:6). > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *CBrown4465 at aol.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate > > > > *The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!!* > > *The Jihad Candidate** > by Rich Carroll > > Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not > so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and > 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures > the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the > solid grist of fiction. > > Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before > you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing > into the ** Twin Towers** **in lowerManhattan** **and remind yourself > this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years.** > > How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for > President of the ** United States? As long as it took them to place a > Senator from** ** Illinois** **and** ** Minnesota? The same amount of time > to create a large Muslim enclave in** ** Detroit? The time it took them to > build over 2,000 mosques in** ** America? The same amount of time required > to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as > 'chaplains'?** > > Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a > 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent > government in ** Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The > Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in** ** Africa, a > candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his > bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who > changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein > Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of > 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American > teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, > racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle > east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get > away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion > American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim controlled United Nations for use in > ** ** Africa.** > > Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning > him on any issue involving ** Africa** **or Islam would be seen as > 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be > informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist > Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his** ** Illinois* > * **Senatorial and campaign staffs.** > > Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every > stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters that have > placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed > scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran > other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why > haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during > the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's > cousin and the Muslim butchery in ** Africa? Since when did our national > press corps become weak, timid, and silent?* > > > > *Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and > communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or > that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that > his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar > Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist > People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us > this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world?** > > As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has > ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting > record in ** U.S.** **Senate history. Why has the American main stream > media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why will > they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is > it not his name?** > > Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main > stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the > truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus > on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in > 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to ** Darfur** **as > 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non > Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak > Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR > INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!?** > > A formal plan for targeting ** America** **was devised three years after > the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum > by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The > process of settlement' of Muslims in** ** America, Akram explained, 'is a > civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must > understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in > eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and > sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers > so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all > other religions.'** > > There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of > terror invading The ** United States** **in the form of Sharia law and > finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are > coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, > buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole > subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and > what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press?** > > Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders > state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of > 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd. Lies and deception behind a > master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the > placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it > mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for President at the same time > Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the > ** United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to > dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are > expanding their nuclear weapons capability?** > > Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a > time of global jihad from Muslim nations? > > Change for ** America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'? > Is mainstream America** **now so liberal that we can't think? We, as a > country, must wake up!** > > **'It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God or the > Bible'. George Washington* > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 > 7:20 AM > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 > 7:09 AM > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/9a676900/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:09:26 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:09:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Comments on Torah Portion Shelach In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Ross for this information on the Parsha. Good stuff. Chris On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:21 PM, wrote: > *Comments on Torah Reading Shelach (Numbers 13:1-15:41)* > > These are some of my notes for the Torah portion this week. I have plenty > of other thoughts but I wanted to send these out early and encourage you to > read the portion this week. > > This week's Torah lesson begins with a story about Moses sending out > leaders from every tribe (except Levi) to explore the land of Canaan. They > are often referred to as "spies", but the Hebrew word "*tur*" literally > means to *seek out or explore*. Their purpose is to bring back > information - specific information requested by Moses and so in a way, they > are to "spy out" the land. > > Chapter 13:4-15 gives the names of these leaders. > > Two of these leaders (interestingly enough...one from Judah and one from > Ephraim) bring back a good report while the others give an "unfavorable > report" (see 14:32). They are to search out and report on the following: > > 1. What is the land like? > 2. Are the people weak or strong? > 3. Are they few or many? > 4. Is the land good or bad? > 5. Are the towns walled or not? > 6. Are there trees or not? > > And finally they are told to "be bold" and bring back some of the fruit of > the land (13:17-20). > > The reconnaissance mission takes them 40 days. Caleb, the leader > representing the tribe of Judah and Hoshea, the leader representing the > tribe of Ephraim (*whose name is changed by Moses to Yehoshua - 14:16*) > bring back the good report. > > There is a lot of clamor in the camp as the "spies" relate what they saw. > Caleb quiets the people before Moses and tries to encourage the people to > take possession, but again this week we find the people complaining and even > desiring death or a return to Egypt rather than the prospect of pushing > onward into the land of promise. > > I find that the allure of what one knows can be very distracting to people > in the quest. The unknown is not the popular choice for most, and slavery > can be difficult to shake off. People can grow comfortable in the most > uncomfortable situations. > > The valiant two give the people their best arguments to move ahead. They > tell the Israelites that the LORD is with them and warn the people not to > "rebel against the LORD", but this only brought them threats of stoning > (14:5-10)! > > God is angered by the poor choice of the people and wants to destroy them, > disinherit them and start over with Moses (14:11-12). Moses intercedes for > the people reminding God of His very nature. Notice what he says - > > "Let the power of the LORD be great in the way that you promised when you > spoke, saying: The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love > (hesed), forgiving iniquity and transgressing, but by no means clearing the > guilty, visiting the iniquity of the parents upon the children to the third > and the fourth generation." This becomes a repeated description of God > throughout the Bible (see Nehemiah 9:17, Psalm 86:15, 103:8, 145:8, Joel > 2:13, and Jonah 4:2). One should study these words closely. > > God listens to the voice of Moses and agrees to forgive (14:20) but then > says something quite remarkable. He swears that "*the earth shall be > filled with the glory of the LORD*". We read elsewhere of this global > mission. I understand this to mean that the taking of the land was to be the > beginning of something incredible. Israel's mission would be manifested from > this promised land. From there they would become a Light unto the nations! > Here we read that the "glory of the LORD" would fill the earth. Notice the > following passages from the prophets: > > KJV Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: > for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters > cover the sea. > > KJV Habakkuk 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the > glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. > > This is the goal and meaning of history - it is the manifestation of God's > Kingdom on earth. > > God is persuaded by the intercession of Moses, but the penalty of > unfaithfulness will be paid in full. These leaders had "spied out the land > for forty days" and brought back a bad report and so they would now bear > their iniquity - a year for every day! They would learn God's displeasure > and would die in the wilderness. Ironically, this is what they had requested > (14:2). > > Chapter 15 describes various offerings that were to be offered when they > did finally cross into the land. In 15:14-16, we read that the alien who > resides with Israel shall do as the Israelites do. They are to have and keep > the same ordinances as every natural Israelite. See also verse 29 for the > same idea dealing with "atonement". > > The torah reading ends with a passage requiring the wearing of "fringes - > tzittzit" on the corners of their garments(15:37-41). See also Deuteronomy > 22:12. > > This Torah reading offers some insights into what is expected of those who > find themselves in a leadership role among the people of God. Our faith in > God must be strong. Even when things look ominous, we must keep our eyes on > God and not allow circumstances or situations to influence our walk with > God, or keep us from fulfilling His commands. > > We should seek to intercede for the people of God. Moses learned to reason > with God based upon "knowing" his character. This week's lesson contains an > excellent description of God's character. We should learn it by heart! > > We also learn that God gives us challenges that He will help us through. > These may seem impossible, but they often put us in a place to be a light to > those around us. Have faith and be bold. Stand on God's word and you cannot > fail. > > A valuable lesson is communicated in this Torah portion that is often > overlooked. Forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our sins. > We must often bear our iniquity - and this sometimes takes years to play its > course. > > I hope that you will take the time to read and study this Torah portion. > There is much to be gleaned and I have only scratched the surface. Shalom > and good reading! > > *Ross K. Nichols * > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/eb11bbe9/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:24:58 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:24:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We would love to come to this! We haven't been to Missouri yet! We will be praying for you! Chris and Amber On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM, wrote: > Shalom L'Kulchem, > > For those of you who listened to me speak at the UIWU Annual Meeting in > Charlotte, you heard me make it clear that I wanted to dialogue with as many > Ephramites as I possibly could. Having vowed at the grave of Rachel Imeinu > (our mother Rachel), that I would do everything I could to bring *all *of > her children HOME, I have just been presented, Baruch HaShem, with another > opportunity to try to do just that. > > I have been invited to speak at the Saturday night session of the > Annual Conference of the Messianic Israel Alliance, this August in St. > Louis, Missouri. They are expecting between 1,000-1,500 people at this > conference, and I hope, with G-d's help to bring my message of unity and > dialogue to them; in addition to a program to increase Ephramite RETURN to > the Land of Israel. > > The conference is between August 8-11, although I will be leaving on > Sunday the 10th. In one of those great (non)coincidences of my life - I > will be speaking on Tisha B'Av - the 9th Day of the month of Av, the date of > the destruction of OUR Bet HaMikdash - Holy Temple. > > I can promise you only one thing - *no one* in that audience will*ever > * forget what I will be sharing with them.... > > B'Ahavat Yehdua v'Yisrael, > *Hanoch* > > > > ------------------------------ > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/64daa102/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:49:25 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:49:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080616191036.MLJV6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080616191036.MLJV6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: Gary, Thank you for this. You make me want to go and study my genealogy more. My Dad says my family is from Finland and England! That's interesting! Amber Fordham On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Gary Arvidson wrote: > > > Dialogue Friends, > > > > *I'm sorry I put the cart in front of the horse*. Since I sent that > summary of 70 evidences, I thought it would be good to give you a *quick > introduction* to it. > > > > I have cut & pasted below, some of the preliminary introduction drafted > years ago ? for the larger exposition under development. Please realize > that this is "excised material" from 30 pages of preliminary draft. It will > give you more of the drift for the basis for the Ephraim concept ? and where > we might be headed with it. It has been in suspended animation since 2004. > Maybe it is time to get it going again? > > > > In short, not everyone in the US is Ephraimite. This is a melting pot of > many peoples. But the basic stock of original peoples who came here from NW > Europe would come close to fulfilling the concept espoused by the prophet > Amos, who said: > > > > "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all > nations, like as *corn* is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least > grain fall upon the earth?" (Am 9:9). > > > > Ellsworth Huntington commented on this text relative to this concept in > Amos, in his book entitled: *Mainsprings of Civilization*. Wouldn't it be > amazing if people came to perceive that this sifting process led all the way > to North America? Where is the ultimate extent of "?the utmost bounds of > the everlasting hills?" specified in Ge 49:25 anyway? If you go from > Palestine to the end of the West, you come to the Rocky Mountains and the > Sierra Nevada. Could this terrain be along the line of the more ultimate > fulfillment of this major prophecy given to Israel? It is something to > consider. > > > > Gary > > __________ > > > > > > *File*: Ephraim USA-1 > 3rd cut: 5/11/01 7th cut: 3/08/03 > > > 8th cut: 5/15/04 > > *PRELIMINARY* > 9th cut: 7/28/04 > > > *The United States is Ephraim* > > > *70 Evidences* > > > > *by* > > *Gary Arvidson* > > > > > > *Probably one of the most shocking claims anyone could make ? is > to identity the United States with the biblical tribe of Ephraim.* *In > order to comprehend the basis for this claim, a perspective about the two > tribes of Joseph is essential. These two tribes originated with Joseph, and > are called Ephraim and Manasseh. They appear in contrast to the separate > tribe called Judah. * > > *David and Solomon were kings over the entire kingdom of Israel > that was made up of all 12 tribes. David's grandson, Rehoboam, caused a > split in the kingdom, so thereafter the tribes were divided into two basic > groupings of: (#1) the House of Judah, headed by the tribe of Judah, and > (#2) the House of Israel, headed by the tribe of Ephraim. * > > * This outline of evidence shows that the United States fulfills > the role of the lead tribe of the "lost tribes" of Israel in the last days. > * > > *____________ _ ____________* > > > *Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson* > > > > > > In 1996, Harry Curley published an article[ > 1] that posed a question about the identity of the tribe of Ephraim in our > times. That article was entitled: *Will the Real Ephraim Please Stand Up? > * This publication listed 13 rea?sons* *why the United States should be > identified[ > 2] with the tribe of Ephraim ? and not the former British Commonwealth. > At the same time, Lyle Timmins produced a companion paper entitled: *Ephraim, > Manasseh, Texas and the Bill of Rights. ** *It listed two additional > reasons for the US being Ephraim. > > This was the beginning of research that now includes other > listings of evidences below for other sources[ > 3] mentioned in this summary. These 5 contributions from 5 individuals > constitute a total of 70 evidences, depending upon how they are figured ? > and in some cases, with some evidences overlapping. > > This means that we now have as many as 70 evidences showing* *why > the US can be discerned as fulfilling the role of Ephraim in this modern > world. Is it really possible that America was founded by descendants from > the tribe of Ephraim, and that it fulfills this role in today's world? This > brief inquiry supplies only the most abbreviated summary. It is intended as > a potential basis of topic for the forthcoming conference in Jerusalem about > "the Lost 10 Tribes" (*note*: that was a topic of news when this was being > drafted earlier ? 6/16/08). > > > *The Ephraim Question* > > > > Who ever thought before in terms of such potential reversals > about this topic? Yet the notion is intriguing. The big question is this: > *could the correct identity of the descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh have > been "criss-crossed" ? just like with Jacob's arms? *Is it possible that > the correct answer to the riddle about these two brothers is that the > correct identity had been "overturned" for some strange reason? > > * *We may find potentially deeper implications (that are > hypotheti?cally inferrable) from a more intense application of prophetic > typology in this material. It is suggested by the "crossed arms" ? and > indicates we might have gotten "crossed up" about the correct identity of > these two tribes of Joseph. This is an "overturn." There were many > "overturns" in the OT, such as with: (1) Ishmael & Isaac, (2) Esau & Jacob, > (3) Reuben & Joseph, (4) Manasseh & Ephraim, (5) Pharez & Zarah, (6) etc. > > Could there be an implied lesson in this for the last days ? > with the most major identifications of the two birthright tribes? Consider > also that Joseph's true identity in Egypt was not disclosed to his > brothers. Could this be a type that Joseph is not disclosed to his own kin > in the last days? > > In short, what if the "crossed arms" of Jacob also suggest a *crossing > of identities *for "the last days?" Is this possible ? or impossible? > Should we limit God? If it is reasonable, this notion would comprise a > potential double fulfillment ? (#1) back then, and (#2) now, in the last > days. We find that a number of doubles play a major part in Biblical > prophecy, as can be shown by other factors. This is a study in itself. > > We even find reference to the "Double-Messiah" (see booklet: *Double-Messiah > in Bible Prophecy* 16pp.) The notion suggested here is that these *"crossed > identities" would serve to keep "eyes closed" about the total mystery *? > until the critical time. This would be the eventual time when God would > want the identity of Ephraim to be disclosed to the whole world. > > Considering current events, it looks like we could be getting > much closer to this hypothesized time. Whoever Ephraim is today, > investigators had better take a careful look at the book of Hosea, because > this prophetic book is directed at Ephraim. If we don't know the identity > of Ephraim, then how can we possible understand[ > 4] Hosea's prophecies? There are a number of serious warnings in Hosea, > such as: > > > > "?Ephraim has mixed himself [melting pot] among the people...Strangers have > devoured his strength, and he knows it not: yea, gray hairs are here and > there upon him, yet he knows it not?" (Hos 7:9). > > > > Isn't this one of America's big problems today? We just don't know > where all the dangerous strangers (terrorists) are located. We can't find > them easily in an open society. But it doesn't end there. Immigration is > about to swamp the US on yet another basis ? just basic volume ? all the > while jobs are being exported to other countries. Yet this is the time when > the Baby Boomers want to retire. They have grey hair and want to enjoy > retirement. Yet the nation (of Ephraim) is financially broke (when you know > the facts). > > > *Reversed Positions?* > > > > For those individuals who are accustomed to thinking of the United States > as being the tribe of Manasseh (i.e. the other tribe of Joseph), the idea > that America is really Ephraim must be shocking indeed. It is a complete > reversal of thought ? somewhat similar to the idea resident within the act > of Jacob crossing his hands over the two sons of Joseph nearly 3500 years > ago (see: Ge 48:17-18). In this sense, the story about the crossing of the > hands is really symbolic for our time. Assuming that Harry Curley and Lyle > Timmins are correct in their combined list of 15 evidences of persuasion > that the US ? not England ? is Ephraim ? then the implications are quite > significant ? relative to prophetic fulfillment. > > > > *Temporary End of this "excised portion" from the Exposition* > > * * > > *? to be cont'd?* > > * * > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > > *[1]* > * article* ? Two pages of information appeared in the *Servants News *for > November 1996 (pp.14-15). In it, Mr. Harry Curley specified 13 reasons why > it is more reasonable to believe that the United States is Ephraim today ? > and not the former British Empire (or the Common?wealth). > > *[2]* > * identified* ? The word *identified *used here (or "represents") is a > better choice for the situation posed than the word "is" ? since many races > and peoples inhabit the territory of the US. This is a melting pot of > peoples. Therefore, the intent is to convey the idea that the creation of > the US was primarily by the tribe of Ephraim. In short, it was the most > significant tribe involved in establishing the process that evolved into the > most powerful nation-state in the world. > > *[3]* > * s**ources* ? This includes in the following order: William Dankenbring > and Joseph Coman. > > [4] > *understand* ? Hosea mentions Ephraim by name 37 times. Manasseh is not > mentioned once. If this is truly a prophecy for the last days, therefore, > does it not appear to be a critical issue that the proper nation-state be > identified as Ephraim? Much depends upon this. > > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 > 7:20 AM > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 > 7:20 AM > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/2ed03e7c/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:55:31 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:55:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thanks Avigail/Pat! We believe there was a past a present and a future fulfillment of this, what do you think? Chris and Amber On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a > more lucid explanation of Scripture. > > > Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in the > mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns the > demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to > Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel > is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been told > was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to be referring > to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even > speaks of the golden cup in her hand. This is in reference to an > ancient golden cup known as the "cup of Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was > symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of > this golden cup being in HaShem's hand, for He is ultimately in control of > everything! > > Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this > "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning > in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to > the Tribes! > > *"For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD of > hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of > Yisrael. * > *Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his > life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's > vengeance; * > *He will render to her a recompense. * > *Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth > drunk: the nations * > *have drunk of her wine; **therefore the nations are mad. * > *Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed....* > ** > > > In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the > nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" > (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the > false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called > "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been > around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the > wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have > we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast > approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost > Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her > as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah > religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force > behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against > HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an > economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of > commerce. > > I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell > without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very > brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual > entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is > the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" > (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, > custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. > > These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her > husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been > recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. > > Avigail/Pat > > > ** > ** > * * > > *From: **Steve Mathe* * * > *Sent:* Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs > > Dear Clyde and All, > > Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance of > your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just > ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III > revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at > least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, > that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has > definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are > seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the > horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and > from now on increasingly so. > > The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way to > tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the > US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical > values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net > us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast > who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on > our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who > feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do > likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because > of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the > Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first > contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore *it is our > responsibility *to do so. > > I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, not > wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not found a > way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several others > among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything we do. > Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, very > sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be > turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several > rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed > this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great > evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt > this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this > "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its > confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled > to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. > > Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a > speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book > of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone > contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this > veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I > turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations > about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. > "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight > on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and > "she" is out into the world. > > There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to > convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in > text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, > the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the > vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of > the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The > "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of > them. They act as her "servants" setting the *stage,* for her emergence, > by setting the basket on a *base *in the plains of Shinar, which is in > Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie > Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master > come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the > appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in > Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See > immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of > lesser stature who are also set loose. > > The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she > is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three > evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a > mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and > creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly > senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the > brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and > orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom > some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an > integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes > subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with > these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the > right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie > character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah > / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional > confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, > they head for the Earth. > Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the > feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the > core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of > the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every > good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, > and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the > Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull > out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of > Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry > around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission > tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast > her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in > her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all > restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that > is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway > and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for > mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her > seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. > We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, > ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her > seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. > > HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His protection, > for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall lift up a > standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). > > In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our > people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This is a > Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be > times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the > sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land > and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the > primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To > underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about > this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the > breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. > 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for > me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." > > This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where > the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of > the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a > turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we > do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the > firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. > 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and > Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the > repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of > Elijah / Eli Y-h. > > If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this > was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, > please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please > let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we > need to know. It is time. > > > Steve > > > > At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: > > Dear friends: > > I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face > on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say > something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of > Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high > office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in > working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by > the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come > down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. > > Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to > become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We > are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children > of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite > the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in > regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand > in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama > a king to arise who did not know Joseph. > > In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. > But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. > As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being > forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D > might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed > the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to > which way it is going to go. > > But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right > thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes > down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D > will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our > nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D > to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we > might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or > two, or three? > > According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also > according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the > goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I > have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our > birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our > beginnings > > Thank you all for listening > > Clyde > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/d78acde4/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:56:23 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:56:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome Jim: We're pretty new also. Chris amd Amber Fordham On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:15 PM, wrote: > Congratulations, Steve, for summing up something that a lot of people > feel, but cannot put into words. I second your feelings. > > First, I must introduce myself. Call me Jim, folks. I've known Steve for a > while, and I came here at his invitation. I am new to the forum, and have > read just a few posts, but judging from the content of the emails I have > received already, I feel as if there are a lot of like minded people here, > and a lot of very seriously committed people. I am very pleased to meet you > folks, and hope that our time spent together will be fruitful for all of us. > I am honored to meet every one of you. > > In the past, I had a tendency to sugar coat things. With the change of the > times, I no longer feel this urge, because the times demand our actions, not > our words any longer. I speak plainly now because of this. I apologize if I > offend anyone by doing so. It is not my intent to do so. > > In reference to the heaviness of the spirit that is being felt, I can > attest to this. In reference to standing in the gap, I can second that also. > Let me add what I feel in my spirit, and what is weighing heavily on me. I > hope I don't bore anyone with the length of this post. > > I feel that we are standing in the crux of a critical point in history > folks. It's almost as if it's 1939 all over again ( even though I was not > alive then) and we are faced with the choices of supporting a totalitarian > movement which plans on committing large scale crimes against humanity, or > we can stand with Israel, no matter what comes, no matter how unpopular it > seems, and do the right thing. My choice is Israel, and doing the right > thing. I will not knowingly support tyranny. I see a lot of the modern > political movements, especially the UN and other similar bodies, display > many distinctly totalitarian tendencies, and I dont want any part of them. > > No matter who gets elected President, we seem to be steaming headlong down > the road of rebellion towards G-d as a nation. Since G-d is the only author > of freedom, rebellion against G-d usually results in loss of freedom. The > ones who thumb their noses at G-d and proclaim that they know it all and > dont need G-d usually miss this important point, to the detriment of all the > people of our nation. I only hope enough people seek the path of teshuvah, > and soon, or we will all feel the results of this collective sin. ( > remember: sin can be committed individually, collectively,or as a nation. ) > > Some of us in the Midwest are already feeling some of it, especially if we > engage in agriculture or ranching. Flooding, storms, crazy weather...these > are warnings to us that we must heed. Failure to do so will be catastrophic. > The time for repentance is now. > > Besides the Presidential race, the US is at war on two fronts, and in a > quasi war on many more. Economically, politically, religiously, > demographically, to name some areas. Some nations are arrayed on the > battlefield, and some are simply using proxies. Some are just using their > clout to take a chunk out of our economy. Others are happy with politically > undermining us. This war is just starting, too. There are a lot more > chapters to be written. The actors who hate us are the same ones who hate > Israel, which I find significant. A Russo-Persian Arab alliance, which seems > to match up with the players in the Gog-Magog war described in the Bible. > > In reference to Eretz Yisrael, we are witnessing the classic run up to a > well planned campaign of genocide by her hostile neighbors and their > political allies. The combined effects of relentless propaganda campaigns, > mean spirited western media smears, Arab blood libels, UN de-legitimization > of Israel, overall moral equivalency, and the blatant military posturing of > Israel's enemies ( known in military circles as battlefield shaping) is > relentless. They all seem to have one goal: to complete the Holocaust that > the Second World War failed to complete. This war will have to commence > sometime soon. Until it does, we have some time to get ready for it. How > much is unknown. There is one codicil I will add: this time, no Israelite or > Jew will be safe, anywhere in the world. > > So we, as members of Judah or Israel, have a choice: to either work > together for the Glory of G-d, or fail by our apathy, fear, lack of > attention, or inaction. There is no time for religious division, strife, or > even arguments . We must get in gear and take some action. We have to put > aside differences in order to do things that must be done. And we have a > short time to do it. The "Phony War" run up all our conflict and > strife will not last forever. We have a limited amount of time, known only > to G-d. > > A lot of people are waiting for the Messiah to come and rectify things, > however, this does not relieve us of our duty to take individual initiative > to stand up for what is right. We must feed the poor, take care of widows > and orphans, and relieve the suffering of others. And we must do this for > the sole purpose of glorifying G-d, not ourselves. In short; we are well > past the time for words, we need actions. And we need them now. > > We also have to take advantage of the warning given to us by the Spirit ( > ruach) and prepare to take care of ourselves, our families, and whoever we > are responsible for. This includes Israelites, Jews, and any other member of > the nation of Israel who needs help. > > Messianics, Nazarene, Karaite, Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, > Reform, Bnei Noach, or anyone else who identifies with Israel need to find a > means of unity, and begin to set the path towards forming a network of > support for the people who will be suffering in this upcoming time. In > short, we need unity, not division. And we need it now. We cannot afford to > be separate and hostile religious bodies anymore. We must become members of > the nation of Israel, whether we live in the land or not, and we must seek > to become brothers with each other. For the sake of common humanity, > survival, and a common purpose, if nothing else. > > Thanks for hearing me out folks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008 > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/72ce60eb/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 19 11:44:35 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:44:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <578928.31477.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080619164429.HJXS10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Thanks Tracy for your comment, Regarding the ?politics? of the situation, it may be unfortunate, but true, that prophecy gets political when considering the ruling party and/or would be ruling party over the nation(s) in question ? to whom the prophetic messages must be given. From the perspective of the receiver of the message (king, pharaoh, president, etc.), the message could easily be inferred to be political ? despite every attempt on the part of the one delivering the message to be non-political. That just seems to be the nature of the situation. The intent here is not to focus on a party, per se, but rather upon the policy of any public official in high office ? that will affect the citizens in a negative way to a great extent ? hence, bringing forth the prophetic warning. Every effect has a cause. There is plenty of blame to go around, and as a nation we all share in this to some extent ? regardless of an individual?s political affiliation or non-affiliation. It just seems that with human nature being what it is, and that so many of us being descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, that God will punish the same way for the same sins ? regardless of whether we are concerned with the words of Hosea as being (#1) the historical fulfillment, and/or (#2) the modern-day end-time fulfillment. It may well be that it is God?s will that the individual in question may attain to the highest office in the land. As such, this writer would say: ?So be it.? If that appointment / election were to occur, and negativity (upon the people of Ephraim) were to take place, then it would be Divine judgment on the land, and the people of the land. But before any such selection of the individual, and the result of such selection, there would need to be a basic warning given to the individuals who are residing in that land ? which may, or may not, be construed to be ?political? in nature. It appears that the coming election is the most critical ever ? if there is to be an election ? considering a possible state of emergency (martial law) prior to that time. From many reports received, the food reserves are non-existent, and the delivery system is breaking down. We assume there will be a coming election. That may or may not be the case. In short, all that can be safely said is: ?Thy Will be done.? Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Hey Gary & Clyde, Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we just make our proclamation --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/7acc9770/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 19 11:45:18 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:45:18 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080619164505.FDZT6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Thanks Ross for providing the full quote in context. I will pass this along to my associates. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:01 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE I am reading along Gary. You say in your note: "This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has said: ??if things get ugly, I?ll side with the Muslims?? (re: page 261 of 2nd book). That is an open admission. It is ?in your face.? How does that make you feel ? especially when you are called ?Whitey?? To a very large part, ?Whitey? can be interpreted as ?Ephraim? (though most Americans wouldn?t know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it)." I wanted to verify your comment above. It is being quoted (or misquoted) around the world on various lists and forwarded emails and so I bought the book. It is called "The Audacity of Hope". On page 261, paragraph 2 it states: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakastani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." It is essential that people get the quote in its entirety. I want no one to draw any conclusions on my personal stand on the Obama issue or any other political matter as a result of this post. I am a man of context and so felt that I should provide the text in question...in context. Shalom to you all, Ross Ross K. Nichols HYPERLINK "http://www.rootsoffaith.org/"www.RootsofFaith.org _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient HYPERLINK "http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007" \nused cars. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/e2231df6/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 11:59:24 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:59:24 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Ross for the information! Chris and Amber On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:01 AM, wrote: > I am reading along Gary. You say in your note: > > > "This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has > said: "?if things get ugly, I'll side with the Muslims?" (re: page 261 of 2 > nd book). That is an open admission. It is "in your face." How does > that make you feel ? especially when you are called "Whitey"? To a very > large part, "Whitey" can be interpreted as "Ephraim" (though most Americans > wouldn't know it and/or believe it ? if they heard it)." > I wanted to verify your comment above. It is being quoted (or misquoted) > around the world on various lists and forwarded emails and so I bought the > book. It is called "The Audacity of Hope". On page 261, paragraph 2 it > states: > > "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this > easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with *Arab and Pakastani > Americans*, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of > detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken > their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the > history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need > specific assurances that their citizenship really means something, that > America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during > World War II, and that *I will stand with them should the political winds > shift in an ugly direction*." > > It is essential that people get the quote in its entirety. I want no one > to draw any conclusions on my personal stand on the Obama issue or any other > political matter as a result of this post. I am a man of context and so > felt that I should provide the text in question...in context. > > Shalom to you all, Ross > > *Ross K. Nichols * > www.RootsofFaith.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/5b70028e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Thu Jun 19 12:14:57 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:14:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA04721ED4257-102C-FB1@webmail-dd12.sysops.aol.com> Hey Chris & Amber - ???? It would be great if you guys could come!? Trust me, I will be doing quite a bit of shaking and stirring!? :-) ?? On another note, could you please email me (privately) your address....I am terribly ashamed, but those books have still not gone out - please forgive. ??? Shalom vBrachot, ?????????????? Hanoch -----Original Message----- From: chris fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:24 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To spread the word to Ephraim.... We would love to come to this!? We haven't been to Missouri yet!? We will be praying for you!? Chris and Amber On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 10:52 PM, wrote: Shalom L'Kulchem, ? ????For those of you who listened to me speak at the UIWU Annual Meeting in Charlotte, you heard me make it?clear that I wanted to dialogue with as many Ephramites as I possibly could.? Having vowed at the grave of Rachel Imeinu (our mother Rachel), that I would do everything I could to bring all of her children HOME, I have just been presented, Baruch HaShem, with another opportunity to try to do just that. ? ????I have been invited to speak at the Saturday night session of the Annual Conference of the Messianic Israel Alliance, this August in St. Louis, Missouri.? They are expecting between 1,000-1,500 people at this conference, and I hope, with G-d's help to bring my message of unity and dialogue to them; in addition to a program to increase Ephramite RETURN to the Land of Israel.? ? ????The conference is between August 8-11, although I will be leaving on Sunday the 10th.? In one of those great (non)coincidences of my life - I will be speaking on Tisha B'Av - the 9th Day of the month of Av, the date of the destruction of OUR Bet HaMikdash - Holy Temple.? ? ????I can?promise you only one thing - no one in that audience will ever forget what I will be sharing with them.... ? ????B'Ahavat Yehdua v'Yisrael, ????????????????????Hanoch Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/f36cfb86/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 19 13:26:51 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:26:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Dialogue list In-Reply-To: <20080619.141416.8232.4@webmail06.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <20080619182635.HLQN6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Hi Pat, Ross, Clyde, anyone ? can you help to add Pat to the Dialogue list? Thanks for the input. I?m answering you on your personal e-mail address, and then adding the address of the Dialogue site as CC. That might do it. I forgot the procedure I went through to get added to the list. But I?m sure somebody can help you there if what I?ve done is not sufficient. Please let me know if this works. Thank you Pat, Gary _____ From: Patricia L. Morrow [mailto:plmorrow at juno.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:14 PM To: arvidson at ctc.net Subject: RE: Dialogue list Gary, I'll make this brief. I have been unsuccessful at my attempts to join the Dialogue List. I must be doing something wrong! I've emailed Hanoch and followed his instructions and it still doesn't work. You may remember me from the United Israel Conference in Charlotte. I was with Jeanne. After having received the FWD "The Jihad Candidate" today I realize I must find a way to get on your Dialogue List! That message is too important not to be read by every American. Thank you for what you are doing, really. Thank you so very much for informing us out here! And, if you could tell me how to join the List I would greatly appreciate it. (No rush; I know you are busy). Thanks again, Patricia Morrow Charlotte NC ____________________________________________________________ HYPERLINK "http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2132/fc/Ioyw6iiedgXDflnLV0PEiDuYirNUVVO EDjtVzChdpfzVLSM7rHmq9x/" \nStay connected on the go with a full featured tablet PC. Click now! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/f42ec693/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 19 13:57:57 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:57:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris and Amber! I think you are right. The ancient city of Babylon was destroyed. Alexander the Great is reported to have been trying to rebuild the famous Tower of Babel when he died. Saddam Hussein, I have read, was also working to restore the former splendor of that city. I've no idea if it will ever be rebuilt and fully operational again. I was offering my thoughts from a spiritual point of view. I don't know that the spiritual fulfillment of this has a past, present and future to it. What do you think? Would be most interested in hearing. I believe that the figure that Daniel saw with the head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay (Daniel 2:32-33), will have a second fulfillment in End Time events, and was surprised to read that some Rabbis share this belief. In at least one Rabbi's opinion, the death of Saddam Hussein signaled the end of the Revised Babylonian Empire (Nebuchadnezzer's head of gold). He also said that modern Iran represents the Revised version of the breast and arms of silver. If he is right, we may see a Revised Grecian Empire, with a "new" Alexander, come forth. This all makes for some very interesting conjecture. I absolutely love that the figure Daniel saw is destroyed when it is "smote upon its feet" with the "stone cut without human hands" (Daniel 2:34)! To me, that "stone" is Torah, or at least the Ten Words, which Rabbis say encompass the whole of Torah, divided into ten categories. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Much love to you, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Thanks Avigail/Pat! We believe there was a past a present and a future fulfillment of this, what do you think? Chris and Amber On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a more lucid explanation of Scripture. Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in the mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns the demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been told was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to be referring to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even speaks of the golden cup in her hand. This is in reference to an ancient golden cup known as the "cup of Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of this golden cup being in HaShem's hand, for He is ultimately in control of everything! Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to the Tribes! "For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Yisrael. Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's vengeance; He will render to her a recompense. Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed.... In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of commerce. I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Dear Clyde and All, Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance of your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and from now on increasingly so. The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way to tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore it is our responsibility to do so. I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, not wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not found a way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything we do. Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and "she" is out into the world. There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of them. They act as her "servants" setting the stage, for her emergence, by setting the basket on a base in the plains of Shinar, which is in Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of lesser stature who are also set loose. The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, they head for the Earth. Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This is a Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of Elijah / Eli Y-h. If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we need to know. It is time. Steve At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: Dear friends: I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph. In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go. But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three? According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings Thank you all for listening Clyde ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/35d8caa0/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 14:07:51 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:07:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Avigail/Pat: That's also interesting because of the ten toes! (Ten Words) I am convinced that there is a spiritual AND physical fulfillment (past, present and future). We come out of the church almost five years ago where they taught nothing of the History of these fulfilments. You can imagine our surprise when we learned that the temple had already been desecrated. And of course as you mentioned Alexander the Great and his role in history. Do you think America fits into this statue at all??? Amber On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Hi Chris and Amber! > > I think you are right. The ancient city of Babylon was destroyed. > Alexander the Great is reported to have been trying to rebuild the famous > Tower of Babel when he died. Saddam Hussein, I have read, was also working > to restore the former splendor of that city. I've no idea if it will ever > be rebuilt and fully operational again. I was offering my thoughts from a > spiritual point of view. I don't know that the spiritual fulfillment of > this has a past, present and future to it. What do you think? Would be > most interested in hearing. > > I believe that the figure that Daniel saw with the head of gold, breast and > arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and > clay (Daniel 2:32-33), will have a second fulfillment in End Time events, > and was surprised to read that some Rabbis share this belief. In at least > one Rabbi's opinion, the death of Saddam Hussein signaled the end of the > Revised Babylonian Empire (Nebuchadnezzer's head of gold). He also said > that modern Iran represents the Revised version of the breast and arms of > silver. If he is right, we may see a Revised Grecian Empire, with a "new" > Alexander, come forth. This all makes for some very interesting conjecture. > > I absolutely love that the figure Daniel saw is destroyed when it is "smote > upon its feet" with the "stone cut without human hands" (Daniel 2:34)! To > me, that "stone" is Torah, or at least the Ten Words, which Rabbis say > encompass the whole of Torah, divided into ten categories. > > Look forward to hearing your thoughts. > > Much love to you, > > Pat > > > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:55 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs > > Thanks Avigail/Pat! > > We believe there was a past a present and a future fulfillment of this, > what do you think? > > Chris and Amber > > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a >> more lucid explanation of Scripture. >> >> >> Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in the >> mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns the >> demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to >> Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel >> is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been told >> was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to be referring >> to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even >> speaks of the golden cup in her hand. This is in reference to an >> ancient golden cup known as the "cup of Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was >> symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of >> this golden cup being in HaShem's hand, for He is ultimately in control of >> everything! >> >> Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this >> "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning >> in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to >> the Tribes! >> >> *"For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD of >> hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of >> Yisrael. * >> *Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his >> life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's >> vengeance; * >> *He will render to her a recompense. * >> *Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth >> drunk: the nations * >> *have drunk of her wine; **therefore the nations are mad. * >> *Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed....* >> ** >> >> >> In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the >> nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" >> (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the >> false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called >> "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been >> around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the >> wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have >> we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast >> approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost >> Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her >> as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah >> religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force >> behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against >> HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an >> economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of >> commerce. >> >> I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell >> without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very >> brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual >> entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is >> the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" >> (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, >> custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. >> >> These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her >> husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been >> recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. >> >> Avigail/Pat >> >> >> ** >> ** >> ** >> >> *From: **Steve Mathe* * * >> *Sent:* Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs >> >> Dear Clyde and All, >> >> Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance of >> your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just >> ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III >> revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at >> least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, >> that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has >> definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are >> seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the >> horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and >> from now on increasingly so. >> >> The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way to >> tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the >> US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical >> values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net >> us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast >> who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on >> our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who >> feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do >> likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because >> of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the >> Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first >> contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore *it is our >> responsibility *to do so. >> >> I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, >> not wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not >> found a way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several >> others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything >> we do. Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, >> very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be >> turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several >> rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed >> this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great >> evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt >> this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this >> "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its >> confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled >> to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. >> >> Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a >> speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book >> of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone >> contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this >> veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I >> turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations >> about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. >> "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight >> on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and >> "she" is out into the world. >> >> There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to >> convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in >> text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, >> the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the >> vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of >> the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The >> "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of >> them. They act as her "servants" setting the *stage,* for her emergence, >> by setting the basket on a *base *in the plains of Shinar, which is in >> Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie >> Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master >> come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the >> appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in >> Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See >> immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of >> lesser stature who are also set loose. >> >> The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she >> is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three >> evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a >> mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and >> creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly >> senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the >> brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and >> orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom >> some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an >> integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes >> subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with >> these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the >> right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie >> character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah >> / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional >> confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, >> they head for the Earth. >> Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the >> feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the >> core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of >> the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every >> good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, >> and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the >> Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull >> out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of >> Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry >> around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission >> tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast >> her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in >> her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all >> restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that >> is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway >> and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for >> mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her >> seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. >> We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, >> ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her >> seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. >> >> HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His >> protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall >> lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). >> >> In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our >> people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This is a >> Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be >> times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the >> sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land >> and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the >> primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To >> underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about >> this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the >> breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. >> 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for >> me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." >> >> This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where >> the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of >> the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a >> turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we >> do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the >> firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. >> 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and >> Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the >> repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of >> Elijah / Eli Y-h. >> >> If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this >> was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, >> please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please >> let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we >> need to know. It is time. >> >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: >> >> Dear friends: >> >> I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the >> face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say >> something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of >> Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high >> office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in >> working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by >> the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come >> down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. >> >> Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to >> become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We >> are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children >> of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite >> the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in >> regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand >> in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama >> a king to arise who did not know Joseph. >> >> In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. >> But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. >> As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being >> forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D >> might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed >> the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to >> which way it is going to go. >> >> But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is >> right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it >> comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that >> G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if >> our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of >> G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if >> we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season >> or two, or three? >> >> According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also >> according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the >> goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I >> have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our >> birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our >> beginnings >> >> Thank you all for listening >> >> Clyde >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/84de48b3/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Thu Jun 19 14:30:10 2008 From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:30:10 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Dialogue list In-Reply-To: <20080619182635.HLQN6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> References: <20080619.141416.8232.4@webmail06.dca.untd.com><20080619182635.HLQN6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <569537771-1213903784-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1454412368-@bxe103.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Done Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Gary Arvidson" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:26:51 To:"'Patricia L. Morrow'" Cc:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Dialogue list Hi Pat,????????????? Ross, Clyde, anyone ? can you help to add Pat to the Dialogue list? ? Thanks for the input.? I?m answering you on your personal e-mail address, and then adding the address of the Dialogue site as CC.? That might do it.? I forgot the procedure I went through to get added to the list.? But I?m sure somebody can help you there if what I?ve done is not sufficient. ? Please let me know if this works. ? Thank you Pat, ? Gary ? ---------------- From: Patricia L. Morrow [mailto:plmorrow at juno.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:14 PM To: arvidson at ctc.net Subject: RE: Dialogue list ? Gary, I'll make this brief. I have been unsuccessful at my attempts to join the Dialogue List.? I must be doing something wrong!? I've emailed Hanoch and followed his instructions and it still doesn't work. You may remember me from the United Israel Conference in Charlotte.? I was with Jeanne.? After having received the FWD "The Jihad Candidate" today?I realize I must find a way to get on your Dialogue List!? That message is too important not to be read by every American.? Thank you for what you are doing, really.? Thank you so very much for informing us out here!? And, if you could tell me how to join the List I would greatly appreciate it. (No rush; I know you are busy). Thanks again, Patricia Morrow Charlotte NC _______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Jun 19 14:42:22 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:42:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Hi Amber, I really don't know. That's very thought provoking! A "revised" Grecian Empire hardly seems likely coming from modern Greece! Maybe it is revised in the sense of a Hellenist society, with a powerful world leader who is very similar to Alexander. I guess that would fit the US, but other countries as well. I never thought of the ten toes along with the Ten Words! That seems appropriate, doesn't it? The Ten Words ("Stone") strikes the ten toes, and annihilates the world kingdoms that have set themselves up in defiance of HaSHem. Then the "Stone" fills the whole earth! "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Y-VH, as the waters cover the sea." Habakkuk 2:14 Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:07 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Avigail/Pat: That's also interesting because of the ten toes! (Ten Words) I am convinced that there is a spiritual AND physical fulfillment (past, present and future). We come out of the church almost five years ago where they taught nothing of the History of these fulfilments. You can imagine our surprise when we learned that the temple had already been desecrated. And of course as you mentioned Alexander the Great and his role in history. Do you think America fits into this statue at all??? Amber On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Hi Chris and Amber! I think you are right. The ancient city of Babylon was destroyed. Alexander the Great is reported to have been trying to rebuild the famous Tower of Babel when he died. Saddam Hussein, I have read, was also working to restore the former splendor of that city. I've no idea if it will ever be rebuilt and fully operational again. I was offering my thoughts from a spiritual point of view. I don't know that the spiritual fulfillment of this has a past, present and future to it. What do you think? Would be most interested in hearing. I believe that the figure that Daniel saw with the head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron and clay (Daniel 2:32-33), will have a second fulfillment in End Time events, and was surprised to read that some Rabbis share this belief. In at least one Rabbi's opinion, the death of Saddam Hussein signaled the end of the Revised Babylonian Empire (Nebuchadnezzer's head of gold). He also said that modern Iran represents the Revised version of the breast and arms of silver. If he is right, we may see a Revised Grecian Empire, with a "new" Alexander, come forth. This all makes for some very interesting conjecture. I absolutely love that the figure Daniel saw is destroyed when it is "smote upon its feet" with the "stone cut without human hands" (Daniel 2:34)! To me, that "stone" is Torah, or at least the Ten Words, which Rabbis say encompass the whole of Torah, divided into ten categories. Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Much love to you, Pat From: chris fordham Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:55 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Thanks Avigail/Pat! We believe there was a past a present and a future fulfillment of this, what do you think? Chris and Amber On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a more lucid explanation of Scripture. Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in the mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns the demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been told was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to be referring to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even speaks of the golden cup in her hand. This is in reference to an ancient golden cup known as the "cup of Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of this golden cup being in HaShem's hand, for He is ultimately in control of everything! Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to the Tribes! "For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Yisrael. Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's vengeance; He will render to her a recompense. Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk: the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed.... In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of commerce. I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. Avigail/Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs Dear Clyde and All, Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance of your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I just ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and from now on increasingly so. The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way to tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on the US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore it is our responsibility to do so. I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, not wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not found a way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything we do. Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, a speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and "she" is out into the world. There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of them. They act as her "servants" setting the stage, for her emergence, by setting the basket on a base in the plains of Shinar, which is in Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of lesser stature who are also set loose. The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, they head for the Earth. Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for our people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This is a Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will be times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. Isa. 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of Elijah / Eli Y-h. If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we need to know. It is time. Steve At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: Dear friends: I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama a king to arise who did not know Joseph. In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D as to which way it is going to go. But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season or two, or three? According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our beginnings Thank you all for listening Clyde ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/907e580b/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 14:48:47 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:48:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs In-Reply-To: References: <200806152353.m5FNrWIN010083@mail208c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: No, Not Greece. They say in Europe they have constructed a tower of babel, uncompleted in looks? I saw a documentary of it a few years back. Yes, definetly a Hellenist society! I fell we will see another powerful figure on the stage. Your verse...."waters" representing spirit and "seas" representing people, right? Amber On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > Hi Amber, > > I really don't know. That's very thought provoking! A "revised" Grecian > Empire hardly seems likely coming from modern Greece! Maybe it is revised > in the sense of a Hellenist society, with a powerful world leader who is > very similar to Alexander. I guess that would fit the US, but other > countries as well. > > I never thought of the ten toes along with the Ten Words! That seems > appropriate, doesn't it? The Ten Words ("Stone") strikes the ten toes, and > annihilates the world kingdoms that have set themselves up in defiance of > HaSHem. Then the > "Stone" fills the whole earth! > > *"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of Y-VH, as the waters > cover the sea."* > *Habakkuk 2:14* > > > Pat > > > *From:* chris fordham > *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:07 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs > > Avigail/Pat: > > That's also interesting because of the ten toes! (Ten Words) > > I am convinced that there is a spiritual AND physical fulfillment (past, > present and future). > > We come out of the church almost five years ago where they taught nothing > of the History of these fulfilments. You can imagine our surprise when we > learned that the temple had already been desecrated. And of course as you > mentioned Alexander the Great and his role in history. > > Do you think America fits into this statue at all??? > > Amber > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Pat Robbins > wrote: > >> Hi Chris and Amber! >> >> I think you are right. The ancient city of Babylon was destroyed. >> Alexander the Great is reported to have been trying to rebuild the famous >> Tower of Babel when he died. Saddam Hussein, I have read, was also working >> to restore the former splendor of that city. I've no idea if it will ever >> be rebuilt and fully operational again. I was offering my thoughts from a >> spiritual point of view. I don't know that the spiritual fulfillment of >> this has a past, present and future to it. What do you think? Would be >> most interested in hearing. >> >> I believe that the figure that Daniel saw with the head of gold, breast >> and arms of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, feet of iron >> and clay (Daniel 2:32-33), will have a second fulfillment in End Time >> events, and was surprised to read that some Rabbis share this belief. In at >> least one Rabbi's opinion, the death of Saddam Hussein signaled the end of >> the Revised Babylonian Empire (Nebuchadnezzer's head of gold). He also said >> that modern Iran represents the Revised version of the breast and arms of >> silver. If he is right, we may see a Revised Grecian Empire, with a "new" >> Alexander, come forth. This all makes for some very interesting conjecture. >> >> I absolutely love that the figure Daniel saw is destroyed when it is >> "smote upon its feet" with the "stone cut without human hands" (Daniel >> 2:34)! To me, that "stone" is Torah, or at least the Ten Words, which >> Rabbis say encompass the whole of Torah, divided into ten categories. >> >> Look forward to hearing your thoughts. >> >> Much love to you, >> >> Pat >> >> >> >> *From:* chris fordham >> *Sent:* Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:55 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs >> >> Thanks Avigail/Pat! >> >> We believe there was a past a present and a future fulfillment of this, >> what do you think? >> >> Chris and Amber >> >> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pat Robbins < >> patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Below is my take on things. I stand to be corrected if others offer a >>> more lucid explanation of Scripture. >>> >>> >>> Since becoming aware of the role played by "the woman in the ephah" in >>> the mid '80's, have been speaking forth G-d's Word which I believe concerns >>> the demise of her power: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great," according to >>> Isaiah 21:9 ("Bavel is fallen, is fallen..."), and Jeremiah 51:8 ("Bavel >>> is suddenly fallen..."). Interestingly, Revelation (which I've been >>> told was originally a Cabbalistic writing) 14:8 and 18:2 appear to >>> be referring to this same entity, "Babylon," (who is >>> "fallen,fallen"), while 17:4 even speaks of the golden cup in her hand. >>> This is in reference to an ancient golden cup known as the "cup of >>> Semiramis" in Babylon. That cup was symbolic of the Chaldean Mysteries. >>> Jeremiah 51 is apparently speaking of this golden cup being in HaShem's >>> hand, for He is ultimately in control of everything! >>> >>> Babylon seems not only to be a place, but also a description of this >>> "woman" of "wickedness" found in the ephah. The Jeremiah 51 Pasuk, beginning >>> in verse 5(-8), really clarifies the whole process of what "she" has done to >>> the Tribes! >>> >>> *"For Yisrael has not been widowed, nor Yehuda of his G-d, or the L-RD >>> of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of >>> Yisrael. * >>> *Flee out of the midst of Bavel (Babylon), and let every man save his >>> life: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the L-RD's >>> vengeance; * >>> *He will render to her a recompense. * >>> *Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth >>> drunk: the nations * >>> *have drunk of her wine; **therefore the nations are mad. * >>> *Bavel is suddenly fallen and destroyed....* >>> ** >>> >>> >>> In Isaiah 28:1, we are called "the drunkards of Ephraim." WE are the >>> nations (the scattered, lost Tribes of Israel) who have drunk of "her" >>> (Babylon's) "wine." WE are the ones "she" made mad! Her "wine" IS the >>> false god we have followed! She is many things to this false god called >>> "wine." She is his mother, his wife, and his holy spirit. She has been >>> around for millennia. She was worshipped in ancient Babylon as the >>> wife/mother of the "son." Our forefathers were seduced by her, and so have >>> we been. But we are COMING OUT of her! Her time of judgment is fast >>> approaching. She will soon FALL, and our intercession on behalf of the Lost >>> Tribes is given forth to HaSHem that they may sober up and come out of her >>> as well. In truth, she is responsible for all the diverse anti-Torah >>> religions of the world. In her final fling, she will be the driving force >>> behind the attempt to unite these religions that set themselves up against >>> HaSHem. Zecharia 5 shows us that she is not only a religious force, but an >>> economic one as well, because she is in an ephah, which is a symbol of >>> commerce. >>> >>> I think that is why Revelation speaks of not being able to buy or sell >>> without the "mark of the beast." This "beast" will be a man, a very >>> brilliant man, who is the real-life personification of the spiritual >>> entity, "wine," her "husband/son." She is this man's holy spirit. He is >>> the man whom Daniel 7:25 says, "will seek to change the times and the law" >>> (Hebrew: dat = religion, faith, law, denomination, edict, royal decree, >>> custom). He is also said , "to honor the god of forces," Daniel 11:38. >>> >>> These, I believe, are two ("Wickedness/Babylon" and her >>> husband/son, "Wine") of the 3 entities to which Steve refers as having been >>> recently "released" to fulfill their prophetic End Time roles. >>> >>> Avigail/Pat >>> >>> >>> ** >>> ** >>> ** >>> >>> *From: **Steve Mathe* * * >>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 15, 2008 7:53 PM >>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Yeshua thread / standing in the GAP PRs >>> >>> Dear Clyde and All, >>> >>> Thank you Clyde for telling the list what we need to do. The substance >>> of your email was also to be the substance of my next email last week, I >>> just ran out of time before Shabbat, being busy with Confession Prayer III >>> revision. This way the list can see that this information is coming from at >>> least two sources. with this email I want to reinforce what Clyde wrote, >>> that we "need to stand in the GAP," and we need to do it NOW. The time has >>> definitely arrived, and we need to stay in the GAP for as long as we are >>> seeing the need. From what is here already and what is coming up on the >>> horizon, there will be plenty of need. Indeed, the need is already here and >>> from now on increasingly so. >>> >>> The presidential election is one, obviously. There is no sure fire way >>> to tell,who will be worse, it looks like if Obama wins, the punishment on >>> the US might be swift and severe. Our utter corruption and leaving Biblical >>> values and pushing Israel into deals with her murderers will definitely net >>> us great curses. No psychic, or political prognosticator dares to forecast >>> who will win. It may not be written in stone, and HaShem may be waiting on >>> our repentance and pleas for mercy. Am sure we are not the only ones who >>> feel that way and are praying and motivating people to pray and do >>> likewise. In any case, we need "stand in" for mercy for our people, because >>> of all people, by G-d's grace, we know a bit more than most people about the >>> Biblical prophecies concerning the Twelve Tribes. We are among "the first >>> contingent form the Valley of Dry Bones, "and therefore *it is our >>> responsibility *to do so. >>> >>> I have debated within myself how or even if I should tell you all this, >>> not wanting to draw any attention to myself in this regard. I have not >>> found a way other than what is in the following lines. Clyde, and several >>> others among you may have sensed that there is an urgency about everything >>> we do. Further, Some may have felt that there is definitely something very, >>> very sinister and destructive that has been set into motion which cannot be >>> turned around and is hurtling down its assigned path. Recently several >>> rabbis have had the same dream simultaneously about this. I have sensed >>> this before the earthquake in China, but the "feeling of a foreboding great >>> evil and destruction has not abated but stayed with me. Others have felt >>> this also, and am convinced from several and manifold directions where this >>> "feeling" has been perceived, that "the sinister force" is out of the its >>> confinement and has been set lose into the world. Therefore, I am impelled >>> to disclose some PRs about what I believe is happening. >>> >>> Last week as I was meditating and gathering my notes on this phenomenon, >>> a speaker on a radio program about scientific principles encoded in the book >>> of Genesis mentioned in passing Zecheriah 5. Right after that someone >>> contacted with a dream of years ago, that had the same portent on this >>> veifying it. All these messages, were converging on Zechariah 5. Soon as I >>> turned to it, I saw, what I have not been considering in my contemplations >>> about this, but reached the same conclusion as portrayed in this chapter. >>> "The woman" who was shut up in the efah, / basket, with a great lead weight >>> on it mouth has been let lose. The weight is off the mouth of her cage, and >>> "she" is out into the world. >>> >>> There are two illustrations that come to mind. Illustrations are best to >>> convey a message, that is why we dream in pictures / movies, and not in >>> text. One is the last scene in the Jurassic Park I movie, where at the end, >>> the iron cage's door where the pterodactyls are kept, is left open for the >>> vicious reptilian flying monsters to get out and propagate in the rest of >>> the world. They were not of this world and do not belong to this world. The >>> "storks," unclean birds which carry the basket with the woman remind me of >>> them. They act as her "servants" setting the *stage,* for her emergence, >>> by setting the basket on a *base *in the plains of Shinar, which is in >>> Iraq today, the ancient Babylon. The storks also remind me of the movie >>> Ghostbusters, where the two evil beast, the gatekeeper and the key master >>> come forth out of another dimension and ready the stage of the world for the >>> appearance of "the woman," who aforetime was worshipped as a goddess in >>> Babylon. This time she is in modern garb to fit the culture of our age. See >>> immediately sets about to do her evil work, and she has many minions of >>> lesser stature who are also set loose. >>> >>> The other movie that evens out the picture as to who she is and what she >>> is like, is in the beginning of the first Superman movie. In it the three >>> evil entities personify three evil forces. The brute one is just that, a >>> mindless killer instinct for its own sake, just murdering, destroying and >>> creating mayhem. We see more and more of this in the many incomprehensibly >>> senseless acts we hear about in the news every day. Another one, is "the >>> brain" among the three, who does all the speaking, planning and >>> orchestrating of destruction. The third one of the trio, is "the woman" whom >>> some may write off as the token woman in the trio. However, she is an >>> integral and most important entity. She embodies the incredible, sometimes >>> subtle and sometimes strong powers seduction. There is nothing wrong with >>> these feminine powers God gave to women. They are for the right place, the >>> right time. Here we see these powers used the wrong way. This movie >>> character can be looked at as a way to conceptualize "the woman in the ephah >>> / basket." In the movie we see the trio set lose from their two-dimensional >>> confinement. As soon as they are let lose in the three dimensional world, >>> they head for the Earth. >>> Further "she" might be viewed as the antithesis of the holy Spirit, the >>> feminine polarity of the influence of G-d. She is the anti-holy spirit, the >>> core guiding force within the Sitra Achra, "the Other Side," the realm of >>> the demonic. True, she has been deceiving the world, and opposing every >>> good development of G-d throughout history. She has perverted many truths, >>> and has seduced many movements in time past. She is the Great Harlot of the >>> Scriptures, who deceives Israel, the world, and from whom we are to pull >>> out. Now, she has been set on her "base of operations" in the plains of >>> Shinar, where she aforetime had her headquarters for spreading idolatry >>> around the world. She has been set upon her "base," as if a transmission >>> tower base, from which with millions of watts or power she will broadcast >>> her message into all minds on Earth. In times past, she has been limited in >>> her powers. In Zachariah 5, she is named "wickedness," and has all >>> restraints taken off her. Am of the persuasion that this is true, and that >>> is why some have "felt a disturbance in the Force." This plan is underway >>> and cannot be reversed, since "she is out." All we can do is plead for >>> mercy, for protection (Isa. 26:20-21) and for inspiration to counter her >>> seductive influence. Am sure she will try to pervert this movement as well. >>> We have our work cut out in this atmosphere where deception in religion, >>> ethics, morals, politics, economy, science and all other fields her >>> seductive influence will be felt to the worse, increasing geometrically. >>> >>> HaShem encourages us, to be not afraid, but find comfort in His >>> protection, for "when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the L-RD shall >>> lift up a standard against him." (Isa. 59:19). >>> >>> In times past, Hashem has not found one of us to stand in the GAP, for >>> our people, Ez. 22:30-31, for mercy to the Land. This we can do NOW. This >>> is a Pinchas-like task that we need to do NOW, (Num. 25:11). Yes, there will >>> be times to speak. For now we need to speak to G-d, confess our sins and the >>> sins of our fathers, and stand in for our bothers and sisters in the Land >>> and in the lands of the Ten Tribes. It is our DUTY to do so. This is the >>> primary reason we have been resurrected from the Valley of Dry Bones. To >>> underscore this statement, am letting you know some PRs I received about >>> this over 15 years ago. One of them is Isa. 58:12. We are to "repair the >>> breach." This is directly linked to Ez. 22:30-31. Another PR is II Chron. >>> 29:11. It speaks for itself as to what we need to do. It is not just for >>> me. It is for all of you called to be active in "the Work." >>> >>> This past Shabbat, we read, Beha'alotcha / (when you kindle) parsha, >>> where the Menorah is kindled. Its haftara is from Zachariah, where we are >>> told of the restoration of the high priest, and what he must do. I feel this >>> is a turning point parsha week in all our personal and collective lives. If >>> we do our repentance, we will be able to take up our priestly positions as >>> "the firstborn" in Zachariah 5, and intercede for the rest of Israel, (PR. >>> Isa. 58:9). May the fire of the holy Spirit of the G-d of Abraham, Isaac >>> and Jacob be kindled in you and over you... may you all be empowered to do >>> the repentance we all need to do, and to do all our portions in the Work of >>> Elijah / Eli Y-h. >>> >>> If you have any responses to this, please let the list know. I know this >>> was a lot to read, but that is what it needs to be. If you have an ear, >>> please let us know what you hear. If you have any PRs, dreams, SEs, please >>> let us know. Please pray about it, and HaShem may tell us more of what we >>> need to know. It is time. >>> >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> At 07:29 AM 6/14/2008, you wrote: >>> >>> Dear friends: >>> >>> I am lead to break my silence for a moment. My purpose was to seek the >>> face on behalf of the Zion dig which I will continue to do. I want to say >>> something about standing in the gap on behalf of Joseph through the hands of >>> Ephraim. In the land of Ephraim there has been no election for the high >>> office of President such as the one set before us. G-D is a master in >>> working his plan and purpose through the cause and effect brought about by >>> the choices of mankind. This election in how it is played out will come >>> down to fulfill G-D's purposes one way or the other. >>> >>> Our nation has taken the birthright blessings conferred upon Ephraim to >>> become the greatest nation in all history since there has been nations. We >>> are called to stand in the gap as Moses stood on behalf of all the children >>> of Jacob. We are called to stand in the gap, as Yeshua stood, lest G-D smite >>> the earth with a curse.. No matter which side of the fence you stand in >>> regard to Yeshua, I have broken my silence, to say to each of us, to stand >>> in the gap on behalf of Ephraim, who is acting like a silly dove, over Obama >>> a king to arise who did not know Joseph. >>> >>> In the end as always G-D will turn the evil and replace good in its >>> stead. But it is getting to that good that overcome the evil that is set >>> before us. As a nation we are either going down through the ungodliness that >>> is being forced by the ultra liberal, or by standing in the gap who can know >>> if G-D might bring about the right king to rule our great nation who has >>> enjoyed the birthright through the right hand of Jacob? I have besought G-D >>> as to which way it is going to go. >>> >>> But no answer has been forth coming. To stand in the gap I believe is >>> right thing to do. If it comes down where evil prevails, G-D help us. If it >>> comes down for good, then our prayers will have been heard. It is not that >>> G-D will not hear out prayers, for surly He does. The question becomes if >>> our nation has filled the cup of ungodliness and worn the long suffering of >>> G-D to where our nation has passed the point of no return. Who can know if >>> we might prevail and the long suffering of G-D might continue for a season >>> or two, or three? >>> >>> According to the WORD of G-D there is no third ruin of Israel. But also >>> according to the WORD of G-D the prophecies are written where the result the >>> goodness of G-D prevails, but getting there can become bloody. And so, I >>> have written this to ask of us to stand in the gap on behalf of our >>> birthright nation that is blinded to whom we are at the core of our >>> beginnings >>> >>> Thank you all for listening >>> >>> Clyde >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/76cbe903/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 19 16:54:23 2008 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080616191036.MLJV6463.ispmxaamta08-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <154488.41336.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Great?work Gary! ? Have you discussed this with Yair Davidiy of BritAm? Or, has he considered your material? ? Tracy --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 2:10 PM ? Dialogue Friends, ? I?m sorry I put the cart in front of the horse.? Since I sent that summary of 70 evidences, I thought it would be good to give you a quick introduction to it.? ? I have cut & pasted below, some of the preliminary introduction drafted years ago ? for the larger exposition under development.? Please realize that this is ?excised material? from 30 pages of preliminary draft.? It will give you more of the drift for the basis for the Ephraim concept ? and where we might be headed with it.? It has been in suspended animation since 2004.? Maybe it is time to get it going again? ? In short, not everyone in the US is Ephraimite.? This is a melting pot of many peoples.? But the basic stock of original peoples who came here from NW Europe would come close to fulfilling the concept espoused by the prophet Amos, who said: ? ?For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth?? (Am 9:9). ? Ellsworth Huntington commented on this text relative to this concept in Amos, in his book entitled: Mainsprings of Civilization.? Wouldn?t it be amazing if people came to perceive that this sifting process led all the way to North America ?? Where is the ultimate extent of ??the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills?? specified in Ge 49:25 anyway?? If you go from Palestine to the end of the West, you come to the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada .? Could this terrain be along the line of the more ultimate fulfillment of this major prophecy given to Israel ?? It is something to consider. ? Gary __________ ? ? File:? Ephraim USA-1???? ????????????????????????????????????????????? ???3rd cut:? 5/11/01??????? 7th cut:? 3/08/03 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? 8th cut:?? 5/15/04 PRELIMINARY?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????? 9th cut:?? 7/28/04 ? The United States is Ephraim ? 70 Evidences ? by Gary Arvidson ? ? ????????? Probably one of the most shocking claims anyone could make ? is to identity the United States with the biblical tribe of Ephraim.? In order to comprehend the basis for this claim, a perspective about the two tribes of Joseph is essential.? These two tribes originated with Joseph, and are called Ephraim and Manasseh.? They appear in contrast to the separate tribe called Judah .? ????????? David and Solomon were kings over the entire kingdom of Israel ?that was made up of all 12 tribes.? David?s grandson, Rehoboam, caused a split in the kingdom, so thereafter the tribes were divided into two basic groupings of: (#1) the House of Judah, headed by the tribe of Judah, and (#2) the House of Israel, headed by the tribe of Ephraim.? ????????? This outline of evidence shows that the United States fulfills the role of the lead tribe of the ?lost tribes? of Israel in the last days. ____________ _ ____________ ? Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson ? ??????????? ??????????? In 1996, Harry Curley published an article[1] that posed a question about the identity of the tribe of Ephraim in our times.? That article was entitled: Will the Real Ephraim Please Stand Up?? This publication listed 13 rea?sons why the United States should be identified[2] with the tribe of Ephraim ? and not the former British Commonwealth .? At the same time, Lyle Timmins produced a companion paper entitled: Ephraim, Manasseh , Texas and the Bill of Rights. ?It listed two additional reasons for the US being Ephraim.? ??????????? This was the beginning of research that now includes other listings of evidences below for other sources[3] mentioned in this summary.? These 5 contributions from 5 individuals constitute a total of 70 evidences, depending upon how they are figured ? and in some cases, with some evidences overlapping. ??????????? This means that we now have as many as 70 evidences showing why the US can be discerned as fulfilling the role of Ephraim in this modern world.? Is it really possible that America was founded by descendants from the tribe of Ephraim, and that it fulfills this role in today?s world?? This brief inquiry supplies only the most abbreviated summary.? It is intended as a potential basis of topic for the forthcoming conference in Jerusalem about ?the Lost 10 Tribes? (note: that was a topic of news when this was being drafted earlier ? 6/16/08). ? The Ephraim Question ? ??????????? ?Who ever thought before in terms of such potential reversals about this topic?? Yet the notion is intriguing.? The big question is this: could the correct identity of the descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh have been ?criss-crossed? ? just like with Jacob's arms?? Is it possible that the correct answer to the riddle about these two brothers is that the correct identity had been ?overturned? for some strange reason? ??????????? We may find potentially deeper implications (that are hypotheti?cally inferrable) from a more intense application of prophetic typology in this material.? It is suggested by the ?crossed arms? ? and indicates we might have gotten ?crossed up? about the correct identity of these two tribes of Joseph.? This is an ?overturn.?? There were many ?overturns? in the OT, such as with: (1) Ishmael & Isaac, (2) Esau & Jacob, (3) Reuben & Joseph, (4) Manasseh & Ephraim, (5) Pharez & Zarah, (6) etc.? ??????????? Could there be an implied lesson in this for the last days ? with the most major identifications of the two birthright tribes?? Consider also that Joseph?s true identity in Egypt was not disclosed to his brothers.? Could this be a type that Joseph is not disclosed to his own kin in the last days? ??????????? In short, what if the ?crossed arms? of Jacob also suggest a crossing of identities for ?the last days??? Is this possible ? or impossible?? Should we limit God?? If it is reasonable, this notion would comprise a potential double fulfillment ? (#1) back then, and (#2) now, in the last days.? We find that a number of doubles play a major part in Biblical prophecy, as can be shown by other factors.? This is a study in itself.? ??????????? We even find reference to the ?Double-Messiah? (see booklet: Double-Messiah in Bible Prophecy 16pp.)? The notion suggested here is that these ?crossed identities? would serve to keep ?eyes closed? about the total mystery ? until the critical time.? This would be the eventual time when God would want the identity of Ephraim to be disclosed to the whole world.? ??????????? Considering current events, it looks like we could be getting much closer to this hypothesized time. Whoever Ephraim is today, investigators had better take a careful look at the book of Hosea, because this prophetic book is directed at Ephraim.? If we don?t know the identity of Ephraim, then how can we possible understand[4] Hosea?s prophecies?? There are a number of serious warnings in Hosea, such as: ? ??Ephraim has mixed himself [melting pot] among the people...Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knows it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knows it not?? (Hos 7:9).? ? ???? Isn?t this one of America ?s big problems today?? We just don?t know where all the dangerous strangers (terrorists) are located.? We can?t find them easily in an open society.? But it doesn?t end there.? Immigration is about to swamp the US on yet another basis ? just basic volume ? all the while jobs are being exported to other countries.? Yet this is the time when the Baby Boomers want to retire.? They have grey hair and want to enjoy retirement.? Yet the nation (of Ephraim) is financially broke (when you know the facts). ? Reversed Positions? ? For those individuals who are accustomed to thinking of the United States as being the tribe of Manasseh (i.e. the other tribe of Joseph), the idea that America is really Ephraim must be shocking indeed.? It is a complete reversal of thought ? somewhat similar to the idea resident within the act of Jacob crossing his hands over the two sons of Joseph nearly 3500 years ago (see: Ge 48:17-18).? In this sense, the story about the crossing of the hands is really symbolic for our time.? Assuming that Harry Curley and Lyle Timmins are correct in their combined list of 15 evidences of persuasion that the US ? not England ? is Ephraim ? then the implications are quite significant ? relative to prophetic fulfillment. ? Temporary End of this ?excised portion? from the Exposition ? ? to be cont?d? ? ? ? ? ? [1] article? ? Two pages of information appeared in the Servants News for November 1996 (pp.14-15).? In it, Mr. Harry Curley specified 13 reasons why it is more reasonable to believe that the United States is Ephraim today ? and not the former British Empire (or the Common?wealth).??? [2]? identified? ?? The word identified used here (or ?represents?) is a better choice for the situation posed than the word ?is? ? since many races and peoples inhabit the territory of the US.?? This is a melting pot of peoples.? Therefore, the intent is to convey the idea that the creation of the US was primarily by the tribe of Ephraim.? In short, it was the most significant tribe involved in establishing the process that evolved into the most powerful nation-state in the world. [3] sources? ?? This includes in the following order: William Dankenbring and Joseph Coman. [4] understand ? Hosea mentions Ephraim by name 37 times.? Manasseh is not mentioned once.? If this is truly a prophecy for the last days, therefore, does it not appear to be a critical issue that the proper nation-state be identified as Ephraim?? Much depends upon this. ? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/9f2d3e19/attachment.html From arvidson at ctc.net Thu Jun 19 17:47:20 2008 From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:47:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction In-Reply-To: <154488.41336.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080619224704.JKSS6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Hi Tracy, No, I?ve never met nor discussed anything with Yair Davidy. I hear that he is quite a resource on these matters. My work is not well-connected with others because of personal limitations. I work alone, and just few know about it ? except for possibly my book on King David?s Lost Tomb. Exposure of my other booklets and articles seems to be increasing of late, and so one never knows what to expect regarding contact with others. John Hulley has my material on Ephraim and the USA, of which Clyde can give you Hulley?s perspective as stated to him. Thank you, Gary _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction Great work Gary! Have you discussed this with Yair Davidiy of BritAm? Or, has he considered your material? Tracy HYPERLINK "http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif" --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: From: Gary Arvidson Subject: [Dialogue] FW: USA = Ephraim: Introduction To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 2:10 PM Dialogue Friends, I?m sorry I put the cart in front of the horse. Since I sent that summary of 70 evidences, I thought it would be good to give you a quick introduction to it. I have cut & pasted below, some of the preliminary introduction drafted years ago ? for the larger exposition under development. Please realize that this is ?excised material? from 30 pages of preliminary draft. It will give you more of the drift for the basis for the Ephraim concept ? and where we might be headed with it. It has been in suspended animation since 2004. Maybe it is time to get it going again? In short, not everyone in the US is Ephraimite. This is a melting pot of many peoples. But the basic stock of original peoples who came here from NW Europe would come close to fulfilling the concept espoused by the prophet Amos, who said: ?For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth?? (Am 9:9). Ellsworth Huntington commented on this text relative to this concept in Amos, in his book entitled: Mainsprings of Civilization. Wouldn?t it be amazing if people came to perceive that this sifting process led all the way to North America ? Where is the ultimate extent of ??the utmost bounds of the everlasting hills?? specified in Ge 49:25 anyway? If you go from Palestine to the end of the West, you come to the Rocky Mountains and the Sierra Nevada . Could this terrain be along the line of the more ultimate fulfillment of this major prophecy given to Israel ? It is something to consider. Gary __________ File: Ephraim USA-1 3rd cut: 5/11/01 7th cut: 3/08/03 8th cut: 5/15/04 PRELIMINARY 9th cut: 7/28/04 The United States is Ephraim 70 Evidences by Gary Arvidson Probably one of the most shocking claims anyone could make ? is to identity the United States with the biblical tribe of Ephraim. In order to comprehend the basis for this claim, a perspective about the two tribes of Joseph is essential. These two tribes originated with Joseph, and are called Ephraim and Manasseh. They appear in contrast to the separate tribe called Judah . David and Solomon were kings over the entire kingdom of Israel that was made up of all 12 tribes. David?s grandson, Rehoboam, caused a split in the kingdom, so thereafter the tribes were divided into two basic groupings of: (#1) the House of Judah, headed by the tribe of Judah, and (#2) the House of Israel, headed by the tribe of Ephraim. This outline of evidence shows that the United States fulfills the role of the lead tribe of the ?lost tribes? of Israel in the last days. ____________ _ ____________ Copyright 2004 ? Gary Arvidson In 1996, Harry Curley published an articleHYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftn1"[1] that posed a question about the identity of the tribe of Ephraim in our times. That article was entitled: Will the Real Ephraim Please Stand Up? This publication listed 13 rea?sons why the United States should be identifiedHYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftn2"[2] with the tribe of Ephraim ? and not the former British Commonwealth . At the same time, Lyle Timmins produced a companion paper entitled: Ephraim, Manasseh , Texas and the Bill of Rights. It listed two additional reasons for the US being Ephraim. This was the beginning of research that now includes other listings of evidences below for other sourcesHYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftn3"[3] mentioned in this summary. These 5 contributions from 5 individuals constitute a total of 70 evidences, depending upon how they are figured ? and in some cases, with some evidences overlapping. This means that we now have as many as 70 evidences showing why the US can be discerned as fulfilling the role of Ephraim in this modern world. Is it really possible that America was founded by descendants from the tribe of Ephraim, and that it fulfills this role in today?s world? This brief inquiry supplies only the most abbreviated summary. It is intended as a potential basis of topic for the forthcoming conference in Jerusalem about ?the Lost 10 Tribes? (note: that was a topic of news when this was being drafted earlier ? 6/16/08). The Ephraim Question Who ever thought before in terms of such potential reversals about this topic? Yet the notion is intriguing. The big question is this: could the correct identity of the descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh have been ?criss-crossed? ? just like with Jacob's arms? Is it possible that the correct answer to the riddle about these two brothers is that the correct identity had been ?overturned? for some strange reason? We may find potentially deeper implications (that are hypotheti?cally inferrable) from a more intense application of prophetic typology in this material. It is suggested by the ?crossed arms? ? and indicates we might have gotten ?crossed up? about the correct identity of these two tribes of Joseph. This is an ?overturn.? There were many ?overturns? in the OT, such as with: (1) Ishmael & Isaac, (2) Esau & Jacob, (3) Reuben & Joseph, (4) Manasseh & Ephraim, (5) Pharez & Zarah, (6) etc. Could there be an implied lesson in this for the last days ? with the most major identifications of the two birthright tribes? Consider also that Joseph?s true identity in Egypt was not disclosed to his brothers. Could this be a type that Joseph is not disclosed to his own kin in the last days? In short, what if the ?crossed arms? of Jacob also suggest a crossing of identities for ?the last days?? Is this possible ? or impossible? Should we limit God? If it is reasonable, this notion would comprise a potential double fulfillment ? (#1) back then, and (#2) now, in the last days. We find that a number of doubles play a major part in Biblical prophecy, as can be shown by other factors. This is a study in itself. We even find reference to the ?Double-Messiah? (see booklet: Double-Messiah in Bible Prophecy 16pp.) The notion suggested here is that these ?crossed identities? would serve to keep ?eyes closed? about the total mystery ? until the critical time. This would be the eventual time when God would want the identity of Ephraim to be disclosed to the whole world. Considering current events, it looks like we could be getting much closer to this hypothesized time. Whoever Ephraim is today, investigators had better take a careful look at the book of Hosea, because this prophetic book is directed at Ephraim. If we don?t know the identity of Ephraim, then how can we possible understandHYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftn4"[4] Hosea?s prophecies? There are a number of serious warnings in Hosea, such as: ??Ephraim has mixed himself [melting pot] among the people...Strangers have devoured his strength, and he knows it not: yea, gray hairs are here and there upon him, yet he knows it not?? (Hos 7:9). Isn?t this one of America ?s big problems today? We just don?t know where all the dangerous strangers (terrorists) are located. We can?t find them easily in an open society. But it doesn?t end there. Immigration is about to swamp the US on yet another basis ? just basic volume ? all the while jobs are being exported to other countries. Yet this is the time when the Baby Boomers want to retire. They have grey hair and want to enjoy retirement. Yet the nation (of Ephraim) is financially broke (when you know the facts). Reversed Positions? For those individuals who are accustomed to thinking of the United States as being the tribe of Manasseh (i.e. the other tribe of Joseph), the idea that America is really Ephraim must be shocking indeed. It is a complete reversal of thought ? somewhat similar to the idea resident within the act of Jacob crossing his hands over the two sons of Joseph nearly 3500 years ago (see: Ge 48:17-18). In this sense, the story about the crossing of the hands is really symbolic for our time. Assuming that Harry Curley and Lyle Timmins are correct in their combined list of 15 evidences of persuasion that the US ? not England ? is Ephraim ? then the implications are quite significant ? relative to prophetic fulfillment. Temporary End of this ?excised portion? from the Exposition ? to be cont?d? _____ _____ HYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftnref1"[1] article ? Two pages of information appeared in the Servants News for November 1996 (pp.14-15). In it, Mr. Harry Curley specified 13 reasons why it is more reasonable to believe that the United States is Ephraim today ? and not the former British Empire (or the Common?wealth). HYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftnref2"[2] identified ? The word identified used here (or ?represents?) is a better choice for the situation posed than the word ?is? ? since many races and peoples inhabit the territory of the US. This is a melting pot of peoples. Therefore, the intent is to convey the idea that the creation of the US was primarily by the tribe of Ephraim. In short, it was the most significant tribe involved in establishing the process that evolved into the most powerful nation-state in the world. HYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftnref3"[3] sources ? This includes in the following order: William Dankenbring and Joseph Coman. HYPERLINK "http://us.mc511.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?&.rand=100746182#_ftnref4"[4] understand ? Hosea mentions Ephraim by name 37 times. Manasseh is not mentioned once. If this is truly a prophecy for the last days, therefore, does it not appear to be a critical issue that the proper nation-state be identified as Ephraim? Much depends upon this. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/8d24f0c3/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 20 07:42:33 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:42:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Iran's Latest Victory Message-ID: <8CAA0EA3E8DC016-1764-52BE@mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com> Israel's Truce With Hamas Is a Victory for Iran By MICHAEL B. OREN, Wall Street Journal June 19, 2008 Proponents of an Israeli-Palestinian accord are praising the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas that went into effect this morning. Yet even if the agreement suspends violence temporarily -- though dozens of Hamas rockets struck Israel yesterday -- it represents a historic accomplishment for the jihadist forces most opposed to peace, and defeat for the Palestinians who might still have been Israel's partners. The roots of this tragedy go back to the summer of 2005 and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. The evacuation, intended to free Israel of Gaza's political and strategic burden, was hailed as a victory by Palestinian terrorist groups, above all Hamas. Hamas proceeded to fire some 1,000 rocket and mortar shells into Israel. Six months later Hamas gunmen, taking advantage of an earlier cease-fire, infiltrated into Israel, killed two soldiers, and captured Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Hamas's audacity spurred Hezbollah to mount a similar ambush against Israelis patrolling the Lebanese border, triggering a war in which Israel was once again humbled. Hamas now felt sufficiently emboldened to overthrow Gaza's Fatah-led government, and to declare itself regnant in the Strip. Subsequently, Hamas launched thousands more rocket and mortar salvos against Israel, rendering parts of the country nearly uninhabitable. In response, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) air strikes and limited ground incursions killed hundreds of armed Palestinians in Gaza, and Israel earned international censure for collateral civilian deaths and "disproportionate" tactics. Israel also imposed a land and sea blockade of Gaza, strictly controlling its supply of vital commodities such as a gasoline. But the policy enabled Hamas to hoard the fuel and declare a humanitarian crisis. Israel never mounted the rolling, multi-month operation that the IDF had planned. Traumatized by his abortive performance in the Lebanon War, hobbled by financial scandals, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert balked at a military engagement liable to result in incalculable casualties and United Nations condemnations, but unlikely to halt Hamas aggression. Like Hezbollah in 2006, Hamas won because it did not lose. Its leaders still walked Gaza's streets freely while children in Sderot and other Israeli border towns cowered in bomb shelters. Like Hezbollah, which recently wrested unprecedented powers from the Lebanese parliament, Hamas parlayed its military success into political capital. The European Parliament demanded the immediate lifting of the Gaza blockade, and France initiated secret contacts with Hamas officials. A minister from the Israeli Labor Party, Ami Ayalon, went a step further by calling for Hamas's inclusion in peace talks -- a recommendation soon echoed by Jimmy Carter and the New York Times. The Egyptian-brokered cease-fire yields Hamas greater benefits than it might have obtained in direct negotiations. In exchange for giving its word to halt rocket attacks and weapons smuggling, Hamas receives the right to monitor the main border crossings into Gaza and to enforce a truce in the West Bank, where Fatah retains formal control. If quiet is maintained, then Israel will be required to accept a cease-fire in the West Bank as well. The blockade will be incrementally lifted while Cpl. Shalit remains in captivity. Hamas can regroup and rearm. The Olmert government will have to go vast lengths to portray this arrangement as anything other than a strategic and moral defeat. Hamas initiated a vicious war against Israel, destroyed and disrupted myriad Israeli lives, and has been rewarded with economic salvation and international prestige. Tellingly, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who once declared Hamas illegal, will soon travel to Gaza for reconciliation talks. Mr. Abbas's move signifies the degree to which Hamas, with Israel's help, now dominates Palestinian politics. It testifies, moreover, to another Iranian triumph. As the primary sponsor of Hamas, Iran is the cease-fire's ultimate beneficiary. Having already surrounded Israel on three of its borders -- Gaza, Lebanon, Syria -- Iran is poised to penetrate the West Bank. By activating these fronts, Tehran can divert attention from its nuclear program and block any diplomatic effort. The advocates of peace between Israelis and Palestinians should recognize that fact when applauding quiet at any price. The cost of this truce may well be war. Mr. Oren, a senior fellow at the Shalem Center in Jerusalem, is the author of "Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East, 1776 to the Present" (Norton, 2008). Proponents of an Israeli-Palestinian accord are praising the cease-fire between Israel and Hamas that went into effect this morning. Yet even if the agreement suspends violence temporarily -- though dozens of Hamas rockets struck Israel yesterday -- it represents a historic accomplishment for the jihadist forces most opposed to peace, and defeat for the Palestinians who might still have been Israel's partners. The roots of this tragedy go back to the summer of 2005 and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. The evacuation, intended to free Israel of Gaza's political and strategic burden, was hailed as a victory by Palestinian terrorist groups, above all Hamas. Hamas proceeded to fire some 1,000 rocket and mortar shells into Israel. Six months later Hamas gunmen, taking advantage of an earlier cease-fire, infiltrated into Israel, killed two soldiers, and captured Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Hamas's audacity spurred Hezbollah to mount a similar ambush against Israelis patrolling the Lebanese border, triggering a war in which Israel was once again humbled. Hamas now felt sufficiently emboldened to overthrow Gaza's Fatah-led government, and to declare itself regnant in the Strip. Subsequently, Hamas launched thousands more rocket and mortar salvos against Israel, rendering parts of the country nearly uninhabitable. In response, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) air strikes and limited ground incursions killed hundreds of armed Palestinians in Gaza, and Israel earned international censure for collateral civilian deaths and "disproportionate" tactics. Israel also imposed a land and sea blockade of Gaza, strictly controlling its supply of vital commodities such as a gasoline. But the policy enabled Hamas to hoard the fuel and declare a humanitarian crisis. Israel never mounted the rolling, multi-month operation that the IDF had planned. Traumatized by his abortive performance in the Lebanon War, hobbled by financial scandals, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert balked at a military engagement liable to result in incalculable casualties and United Nations condemnations, but unlikely to halt Hamas aggression. Like Hezbollah in 2006, Hamas won because it did not lose. Its leaders still walked Gaza's streets freely while children in Sderot and other Israeli border towns cowered in bomb shelters. Like Hezbollah, which recently wrested unprecedented powers from the Lebanese parliament, Hamas parlayed its military success into political capital. The European Parliament demanded the immediate lifting of the Gaza blockade, and France initiated secret contacts with Hamas officials. A minister from the Israeli Labor Party, Ami Ayalon, went a step further by calling for Hamas's inclusion in peace talks -- a recommendation soon echoed by Jimmy Carter and the New York Times. The Egyptian-brokered cease-fire yields Hamas greater benefits than it might have obtained in direct negotiations. In exchange for giving its word to halt rocket attacks and weapons smuggling, Hamas receives the right to monitor the main border crossings into Gaza and to enforce a truce in the West Bank, where Fatah retains formal control. If quiet is maintained, then Israel will be required to accept a cease-fire in the West Bank as well. The blockade will be incrementally lifted while Cpl. Shalit remains in captivity. Hamas can regroup and rearm. The Olmert government will have to go vast lengths to portray this arrangement as anything other than a strategic and moral defeat. Hamas initiated a vicious war against Israel, destroyed and disrupted myriad Israeli lives, and has been rewarded with economic salvation and international prestige. Tellingly, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who once declared Hamas illegal, will soon travel to Gaza for reconciliation talks. Mr. Abbas's move signifies the degree to which Hamas, with Israel's help, now dominates Palestinian politics. It testifies, moreover, to another Iranian triumph. As the primary sponsor of Hamas, Iran is the cease-fire's ultimate beneficiary. Having already surrounded Israel on three of its borders -- Gaza, Lebanon, Syria -- Iran is poised to penetrate the West Bank. By activating these fronts, Tehran can divert attention from its nuclear program and block any diplomatic effort. The advocates of peace between Israelis and Palestinians should recognize that fact when applauding quiet at any price. The cost of this truce may well be war. Mr. Oren, a senior fellow at the Shalem Center in Jerusalem, is the author of "Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East, 1776 to the Present" (Norton, 2008). ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/b5c25f4c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at aol.com Fri Jun 20 07:49:04 2008 From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:49:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom Message-ID: <8CAA0EB27B3EE7D-1764-530E@mblk-d51.sysops.aol.com> The Lekarev Report 17 Sivan 5768 June 20, 2008 Shabbat Shalom And Caleb stilled the people toward Moses, and said: 'We should go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.' Bamidbar/Numbers 13:30 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/1f257da0/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 20 08:07:14 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:07:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: [UILIST] Lekarev Report for Erev Shabbat Message-ID: Hey Hanoch: Very good, keep em coming, Judah has gone up to Zion first, Rachael's weeping will soon be turned to joy. The L-rd has chosen Jerusalem once again, and this time forever. Out of Zion the Torah shall go forth into all nations. Clyde **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/376270fc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Pat Robbins" Subject: Re: [UILIST] Lekarev Report for Erev Shabbat Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:52:15 -0400 Size: 11605 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/376270fc/attachment.mht From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Jun 20 10:17:17 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:17:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <061920080506.19228.4859E94E00095F5900004B1C22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <20080618153852.CUAR6872.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> <061920080506.19228.4859E94E00095F5900004B1C22230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <016101c8d2e8$bc4c6cf0$0200a8c0@marvin> Reply to All, I think that the subject matter at hand is relative to the debate or discussion. Although I would agree that we must not let it divide us in to the Two political camps of the day. But we, I think would all agree that we are standing at the edge of the ?worm hole? or ?rip in the curtain of time? or we are in ?the last days? if not in the last hours / minutes of the ?last day.? A Christian minister who has died and passed form this life, related the story one time of how he was seeking God for understanding as to the fulfillment of bible prophecy and as he was seeking to understand the text he said he experience what he described as God speaking to him. He prefaced his statement with the comment, ?If I ever heard God speak to me in my life, I heard his voice this time.? As the story goes, what he understood was that the people of God heard the prophets speak of what was coming as the Kingdom of God was being set up. But he was told you will read of it in the Bible and then see it?s fulfillment on the front page of your newspaper. This you must understand coming from a man who was born at a time when Israel did not exist. But read in his Bible that God would restore Israel to the land. And then one day reading his Bible he picked up the newspaper and ?Israel had became a nation?.. it?s 1948. Time went own and he studied the text some more and he noticed the scriptures spoke of Jerusalem and it being the Place where God was to dwell. He picked up the Newspaper and the Jewish people had taken over the city, it was 1967. I think you get my point. Dr. Tabor spoke of a text, Interpreter of text and a fluid context. We are part of the process, trying to see and understand the workings of God. Below is quote form Dr. Tabor. If you have not read the complete article you should. Taken from Dr James Tabor, website Patterns of the End: Textual Weaving from Qumran to Waco Paper given at the Princeton University Symposium on Messianism, March 1996. ?On Sunday morning, February 28, 1993, two years to the very day after the defeat of Saddam Hussein, as if prompted by some cosmic cue, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms carried out their ill-fated raid on Mt. Carmel, the communal center of the Branch Davidians a few miles outside Waco, Texas. Thus began a 51 day siege that ended in the incineration of the 74 inhabitants that had remained inside throughout this period. David Koresh spoke about being "in the fifth Seal" the very day of the BATF raid. He was referring to his particular understanding of a sequence of events to unfold before the End, drawn primarily from the Seven-Sealed scroll of Revelation 6, but connected to a host of related texts throughout the Bible. What is operating here is a series of interpretive dynamics, well known to scholars of Jewish and Christian apocalypticism, that have played themselves out countless times in the past 2500 years. An understanding of these dynamics would have provided what appears to have been the best hope for a peaceful resolution of the Waco situation. Biblical apocalypticism involves the interplay of three basic elements: 1) The Sacred Text which is fixed and inviolate; 2) The inspired Interpreter who is involved in both transmitting and effecting the meaning of the Text; and 3) the fluid Context in which the interpreter/group finds itself. The Text functions as a kind of "map" of things to come, setting forth an "apocalyptic scenario" of end-time events. Koresh's "Text" was of course, the entire Bible, but particularly the books of Daniel, Revelation, the Psalms, Isaiah chapters 40-61, and the Minor Prophets, which he had woven into a prophetic complex that had deeply impressed his followers and convinced them that he was a prophet himself.? - Added emphasis mine. ?Although the Text itself is fixed and unchanging, mirroring in advance an almost fatalistic reflection of what "must happen," there are two variables in this scheme of things, allowing for a high degree of flexibility. First, the Interpreter is doing just that?interpreting?both the Text and the outside Context. And second, outside events are always changing and changeable. This was the key to effective negotiations during the entire 51 day standoff at Mt. Carmel. The government largely controlled the Context, or outside situation. Given this dynamic, this means that the FBI actually held within its control the ability to influence Koresh in his interpretations, and thus in his actions. Unfortunately, everything they did for 51 days, following the standard negotiation strategies and tactical quasi-military maneuvers developed in response to what they called "Hostage Rescue Barricade" situations, simply confirmed Koresh in his initial perception of the situation on February 28th?that that they were "in the fifth Seal," and that the entire situation might well have a tragic ending. In other words, the FBI played the perfect part of "Babylon" throughout, validating in every detail the interpretations of Scripture of both Koresh and his followers.? We should not let our political opinions divide us and we will all make our own decisions come November, but to ignore what is happening in our reality is to live wearing the ?rose colored glasses?. Also, God builds um up?.. and God tries um down?? his purpose to perform. God does not tell us who to vote for, so we make our best choice. Jeremiah Wright could be more prophetically correct then people want to think. ?NO! NO! NO!, it?s not God Bless America, It?s @%$ &^*#? !&*#$%^&. ? I personally think judgment is coming to this country. In my mail box this morning, I found the following: Zephaniah 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. God searches through the city?Jerusalem, Zion?shining a light to reveal everyone to His judgment. No one escapes the judgment of God. Who is He looking for in particular? He looks for complacent men. Just as Hosea uses wine to illustrate the principle, Zephaniah also mentions wine though it is obscured in the translation: the words "settled in complacency" are literally "settled on their lees" like the dregs of wine (cf. the footnote on this verse, NKJV)! Again, the prophet speaks of a prosperous people who had deluded themselves into believing that their physical wealth meant that they were equally rich spiritually. As the years passed, their relationship with God had diminished into lip service and complacency. When God describes them saying things "in their heart," He means a reasoning process that happens internally. A person could not see it with his eyes, but the attitude cannot be hidden from the Judge walking the city with the lamp of truth. In today's parlance we call their problem "sins of omission." Like the Laodicean, the religious Jew of that day was not on the streets committing horrible crimes like murder or rape or armed robbery. These verses speak about the thousands and thousands of ordinary people who were stagnant and indifferent toward their relationship with God. Their problem was not what they did, but what they did not do. Nor does God accuse the Laodicean of the more apparent sins in Revelation 3. He is angry with him because of what he is not doing! He is not a true and faithful witness, and indeed cannot be, because of his poor judgment in prioritizing his life. In focusing on his selfish pursuits and self-centeredness, he leaves God almost completely out of his life. Still, he bears the name of God, attends Sabbath / church services, and at least in a superficial way, worships God on the Sabbath/ Sunday. Yet the relationship is growing cold as he fails to seek Him earnestly as in courtship. The name Zephaniah (Tsephanya?h), i.e., he whom Jehovah hides or shelters. Is there a past, present, and future aspect to this book? Yes, we agree there is a historical setting, but read the short book and replace Judah and Jerusalem with America and the religious privilege we have had and wasted. Zephaniah discusses the day of the Lord and describes the coming judgment upon Judah and the Nations. We have seen Judah?s judgment(past) but what about the Nations(present / future). ? Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. Amos says; Woe to you that desire the day of the Lord?? it is a day of darkness. Think about this?.. Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen:( judgment in this verse is to whom?) as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Zephaniah speaks of judgment on the nations, the land(world) and those that practice Idolatry. He then speaks of the way to escape some of the judgment is to REPENT. Then he proceeds to tell us??? Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. God will sent the ?fishers and then the Hunters? something has to cause Judah / Ephraim to return home. Maybe this war that is now called a war on terror will one day be called a war with Islam and we will think of it in terms of the Arm of the Lord, or the Sword that God sends to the nations. He said in 3:6 ?he would cut off the nations?. Does God have an Arm, a Sword? Obadiah said the day of the Lord is near upon the heathen??. Maybe the day of the Lord that is so terrible and awesome, so dark and distressful is for the Nations only? Judah has had her time of Judgment? So what are we to do, keep searching, dialoguing and waiting for Hashem! Don?t forget to Pray! Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Hello all, I feel I need to offer a reminder here. While I certainly am not contesting the validity of, or the need for, these arguments (indeed I share much in the way of opinion and leaning in regards to what is said in the previous statements), I think it might be time for us to review Ross's introduction to the Dialogue list on the Roots of Faith website (www.rootsoffaith.org). It may not be a popular position to take but I think it is possible to negate the purpose of the Dialogue if we are not careful. Please search your own hearts and tell me if I am out of line. I'm not saying that we should not be discussing these issues nor am I contesting their relevance to Ephraim's duty. I'm just wondering if the Dialogue is the place to discuss them. Shalom. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Gary Arvidson" : -------------- Dialogue Friends, I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below). I thought somebody would say something about it. Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I. In fact, today Im what you might call, Blown Away by it all. For me, this article was the final straw only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time. If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12. With this text, Im pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type]. Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list. Ive discussed this situation with Clyde, and he backs what is being told. We shouldnt drop this subject. It is too critical. If ignored, will it go away or bite us? Any comments? Can you even begin to imagine such a thing as being proposed by Rich Carroll? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written. Carrolls article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes and all the while people are going along blindly and being swayed by the rhetoric and the emotion of the moment. This is extremely serious business. It has been reported that Obama has said: if things get ugly, Ill side with the Muslims (re: page 261 of 2nd book). That is an open admission. It is in your face. How does that make you feel especially when you are called Whitey? To a very large part, Whitey can be interpreted as Ephraim (though most Americans wouldnt know it and/or believe it if they heard it). Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California. He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: Hi Gary! Thanks for your many e-mails. This one is really scary! I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes". I will pass this on as I ask the question. Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States? Is the President unaware of who this guy is? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy? Have we become impudent?.... Al Carrozzo Like Al said: Where is the outrage? Cant something be done? Where are the Watchmen? Who is delivering the message? After all, we are told by the prophet: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be (Ho 5:9). What are we looking at? Why is this phenomena happening? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once. Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days. Here is more that Hosea has said: I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard (Hos 7:12). Hosea goes on to say: The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it (Hos 9:7). Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction. There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet: Ephraim = USA: 70 Evidences). Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea and think, USA. The parallels begin to jump out at you. Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 and think about Iraq, going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc. It is the same essence and feel of fulfillment. On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects in the overall sense to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim. The nations around the world want Obama. Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama. What do they know, that we dont know? His middle name is Hussein. Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? There is so much more. Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim. And you know who you are whereas many millions of Americans do not. That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraims identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim). How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate? Thats another story. Gary P.S. There is a work to be done. Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11. The full context for those texts is most interesting. In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a dig in relation to preparing the way. Could this be on Mount Zion? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time as it relates to the work of the watchmen (Isa 62:6). _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the Twin Towers in lowerManhattan and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from < ns0:State w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Unknown" w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:insAuthor="Unknown">Illinois and Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their fath er being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim con trolled United Nations for use in Africa. Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his Illinois Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nati on's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interes t in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why w ill they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur< /SPAN> as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd. Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for Pre sident at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'? Is mainstream America now so liberal that we can't think? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly gove rn the world without God or the Bible'. George Washington _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/3fa79933/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Fri Jun 20 10:49:50 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:49:50 EDT Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Message-ID: Great Marvin: Everyone should read your post more than once. Clyde. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/de9095cf/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:17:17 -0400 Size: 110367 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/de9095cf/attachment.mht From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 20 15:15:58 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE In-Reply-To: <20080619164429.HJXS10618.ispmxaamta05-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6> Message-ID: <148616.79165.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Amein, Gary!! Shabbat Shalom, Linda Gary Arvidson wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Thanks Tracy for your comment, Regarding the ?politics? of the situation, it may be unfortunate, but true, that prophecy gets political when considering the ruling party and/or would be ruling party over the nation(s) in question ? to whom the prophetic messages must be given. >From the perspective of the receiver of the message (king, pharaoh, president, etc.), the message could easily be inferred to be political ? despite every attempt on the part of the one delivering the message to be non-political. That just seems to be the nature of the situation. The intent here is not to focus on a party, per se, but rather upon the policy of any public official in high office ? that will affect the citizens in a negative way to a great extent ? hence, bringing forth the prophetic warning. Every effect has a cause. There is plenty of blame to go around, and as a nation we all share in this to some extent ? regardless of an individual?s political affiliation or non-affiliation. It just seems that with human nature being what it is, and that so many of us being descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, that God will punish the same way for the same sins ? regardless of whether we are concerned with the words of Hosea as being (#1) the historical fulfillment, and/or (#2) the modern-day end-time fulfillment. It may well be that it is God?s will that the individual in question may attain to the highest office in the land. As such, this writer would say: ?So be it.? If that appointment / election were to occur, and negativity (upon the people of Ephraim) were to take place, then it would be Divine judgment on the land, and the people of the land. But before any such selection of the individual, and the result of such selection, there would need to be a basic warning given to the individuals who are residing in that land ? which may, or may not, be construed to be ?political? in nature. It appears that the coming election is the most critical ever ? if there is to be an election ? considering a possible state of emergency (martial law) prior to that time. From many reports received, the food reserves are non-existent, and the delivery system is breaking down. We assume there will be a coming election. That may or may not be the case. In short, all that can be safely said is: ?Thy Will be done.? Gary --------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 5:36 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Hey Gary & Clyde, Certainly not ignoring you. The statements made say it all. Hanoch sent us to youtube where there is plenty being said. The most powerful talk show hosts in America are sounding the alarm - from a conservative vs. marxist perspective. Yet, the word is out there and will definitely grow more and more distinct. Maybe everyone would rather stay out of politics since it can quickly polarize folk in one direction or another. On some issues, maybe we just make our proclamation --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Gary Arvidson wrote: No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/f9f6b357/attachment.html From CBrown4465 at aol.com Sun Jun 22 08:28:14 2008 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:28:14 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The redeemer will come to Zion (Isa 59:20) Message-ID: Dear friends: You need that no one inform you that Yahovah is coming to Zion. But you may need to be informed that it will be sooner than later. It has been 40 years since Judah took Zion in 1967. We are rapidly coming to the time for the fathers sake, for the promises of G-D to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written. There shall come out of Zion the deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Rom 11:26). Paul's timing was off as history declares, but he knew the scrolls. He did not carry them in his hands, he had then memorized in his mind and consciousness. And what does Paul say when G-D takes matters into his own hands? For the fathers sake the redeemer will come to Zion and turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Not for the sake of the leadership of Israel for they have proven themselves undeserving. Therefore it is not for their sake, it for the sake of the promises to the fathers. That is why Paul says, For this is my [G-d's] covenant unto them when I [G-D] shall take away their sins. As touching the election they are beloved for the fathers sake. For the gifts and calling of G-D are without repentance. What does that mean? It means that G-D will bring them to repentance. Why? For the fathers sake. For the sake of the promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now notice very carefully and read it slowly, in Ps 110:1 The L-rd says to David's master, sit at my right hand until I [L-rd] make your enemies your footstool. Nor containing to read slowly and thoughtfully look as Ps 110:5. The L-rd at your right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. Did you catch the reversal of the messiah at the right hand of the L-rd in v. 1, and then in v. 5, the L-rd moves to the right hand of David's master. How can we know when the L-rd moves to the right hand of David's master? When the time has come that G-D shall show his mercy to his children. When did that time begin my friends? 1948. And when did G-D give them Zion? 1967. Therefore what will it take for the authorities in Israel to wake up? When the redeemer comes to Zion and turns the children of Jacob from their ungodliness. Can you see it? Can you grasp it? The calling is without repentance on their part. Then comes the big question and guess what? Paul knew the answer. Read Isaiah 59 very carefully and notice the sad state But look at v. 17, For he [L-rd] puts on righteousness, and then v.20, and the redeemer L-rd G-D shall come to Zion and turn them from transgression in Jacob, say the L-rd. Paul understood it and so should we. Paul knew the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are irrevocable. Not because of the righteousness of the children of Jacob who have gone astray. No it is because of the righteousness and mercy of the L-rd G-D that all Israel shall be delivered. So let us lift our hands to the great and awesome G-D and stand in the gap on behalf of all of our brothers and sisters Our G-D reigns Clyde **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/a0b971db/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sun Jun 22 08:59:16 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 08:59:16 -0500 Subject: by Cornie going back to [Dialogue] The Old and the New In-Reply-To: <516d73340805230522w109241e1sce4c8a3172bf6263@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340805230522w109241e1sce4c8a3172bf6263@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <485E5AB4.9080203@gninc.ca> Hey Brian, I have been so far behind checking my e-mails and know that I am not doing justice to not answer the thoughts you have suggested in the two following articles, that you likely have miss-understood, in the first article you write as follows: "Your first quote from the "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to have been included for its clout value. It is such a general statement, and without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes." And this is a repeat of what I wrote: ( I have quoted out of a book "The Noahide Code, A Guide to the Perplexed Christian" in which book it is high lighted how the New Testament has been corrupted, so much so, and I will quote: "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is *the true* New Testament." (end of quote). I hope this quote will not be misunderstood as an empty statement, or not academic. But concerning Paul, I am starting to wonder if his words could have been falsified enough to bring contention to his true desire to walk and teach in truth of Torah knowledge that he likely had.) So far my quote from which you take what seems to me you may be miss-understanding this as an empty statement, or as you say: "self canceling". I realize I likely should have explained a little more what a copy righted book is saying, I did not feel free to copy without permission, referring to the "Noahide Code", please bear with me here and I will try to explain myself as late as this comes from the time you wrote that. First, I highly respect the obligation that Judah has received to safe guard and preserve the Torah as authentic Word of HaShem, the Jewish peoples wrongs included as well as the things they did right, which is irrelevant (meaning what they did right or wrong) to what I wrote this quote from "The Noahide Code" for. I want to be understood right what I meant to say, being, that I gave a wrong impression of that book. The "Noahide Code" is a book I would highly recommend to read, and can get information of it from: For help with any of our online services, please email the store-owner: CustomerCare at NoahideNations.com. What I was writing about is concerning a falsehood that I have believed most of my life, that "the New Testament is concealed in the Old T. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New T." A thought that I can no longer support. And this is the main reason I quoted from "The Noahide Code". To my view the two books, the "so called Old T.and the New T.do not agree, as both being inspired by the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.You can take a book of Isaiah printed 1500 years later than a copy from the find in the Quamram Caves, written 1500 years apart and they will be identical. And authentic to the time it was written.Thanks to the Jewish people for having honored and preserved this blueprint for righteous and holy living. If you know Hebrew, in the original you will not find a prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14. Not so with the New Testament. The N.T. is falsified, together with modern translations of the Old T. To make Isaiah 7:14 an original virgin birth prophecy, of which none is to be found in the original Hebrew Torah and Tanach. This is one example only of the distortion of the New T to claim false teaching. You know that what has not been falsified by translations, like the King James for example, concerning Isaiah 7:14, where Matthew 1 claims a prophecy of Jesus to be born of a virgin is supposed to have been prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. Yes I believe the translations of the Old Testament have been badly corrupted too. But you can always go and grab the zitzit of a righteous Jew and ask them what does the original say, right? But you just can not say this of the New Testament, or can you? According to my limited understanding the New Testament writings, all written later, can not be trusted to have such a backup at all, and although the original writers may have been very sincere, why is it that it has not been preserved, like the Torah of Moses' time, the Old Testament has been? That is why I quoted "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is *the true* New Testament." The Noahide Code is not a book to be looked down on as a mere book as you seem to say Brian "without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes." And the reason you made that statement very likely is my fault, because I did not explain it clear enough. This book has only 120 pages, out of which 33 pages are notes taken from writers such as Bart D Ehrman, in fact 4 of these pages are the bibliography of writers the content of this book is taken from. A little later you write, as you can check it out in the later part of the following article from you. ( I quote again what you write) "Any body who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an inspired, infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that were written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged them to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books that seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its manifold indiscretions." Brian I know that the Noahide Code as well as many other books are not comparable to the inspired Word of HaShem given to Moses and the prophets, and Yeshuah may be included as a prophet. But what you will find in a book like "The Noahide Code" is that the author has not just made absent minded predictions out of his own head, but is very careful with facts explaining how they can find that copies written on certain skins, or papyrus, or found as one written in such a time and others earlier or later. If for example they find a text of the book of John that is older not including the story of the adulteress who was caught in the act in John 8, it was likely a story that was added later, and not originally in the book of John. I just wanted you people in the dialog not to get a wrong impression of a book that I quoted a few lines from, like "The Noahide Code"just because I did not give enough description of what it is about. I do that more times, I am used to not being contested like this when I have been too much on my own. I love this challenge, if for nothing more than to be corrected where I am wrong. But at this point I do not see the writers of the New Testament as inspired of the Holy Spirit, as much so as the Holy Prophets of the Old Testament. In your second article below the following one, you write as follows: "Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not be accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it was Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the Torah into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true." This is my take about what you seem to see in this statement. I did not mean ever, that I was accusing G-d for giving Israel a dead Covenant. But If what the New T. claims to be quoting Paul to say is divinely inspired, and I quote out of Hebr.8:6 - 8 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a _better_ Covenant, which was established upon _better_ promises, v. 8 For if that _first Covenant had been faultless_ (he is not talking about right or wrong people but about an everlasting Covenant given to His chosen people, all of Israel, not just the Jews). Now if this scripture written in the King James New Testament is by divine inspiration, in that case the Old Testament Covenant was at fault, and G-d who gave this everlasting Covenant to His chosen people for an everlasting Covenant, must have made a bad mistake. I did not and still do not claim that He did. But both are not right, which one is? Is it the the Everlasting Covenant that G-d gave to Moses on Mount Sinai? Or could it be that there is a false teaching that Paul is supposed to have taught by divine inspiration in the not so reliable New Testament, that seems to have Christianity by the throat? I am not sure what you mean Brian when you say: If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true".It seems to me people like you under the influence of the teaching of the New T.seem to feel obligated to twist the meaning of what we clearly read there to have to be divinely inspired. I understand the Covenant made at Mount Sinai with Moses is an everlasting Covenant with the same people, but since we, if we are a part of the exiled Ephraim, a part of Israel, Jacob's literal son's and daughters, have been deceived by such as I quoted out of Hebrew, once we will get our eye's opened to see such lies from our forefathers, the Catholic Church as an example, than and only than we will see this re-newed but same Covenant as something coming out of bondage in the flesh to a true freedom that will be pointed out to us by the coming Jewish Messiah. I am not blaming anyone, I have been there, done that, I do not look down on anyone who is still caught in this trap of believing the New Testament to be divine inspired pure Word of G-d. I believe that if this New T. is inspired ( after it has been falsified) it is inspired by a false pagan god, according to my view. ( I am referring to the falsification of what could be genuine truth) I stand to be corrected. As we read in the prayer for Ephraim: "Only because You have awakened us from our graves that we remember the wormwood and gall in our souls that we accumulated for centuries. Only by Your grace are we remembering Your works for us, and are aware of our bones coming together in the Valley of dry bones." I am still very likely not seeing all I need to see. But I want to repent by HaShem's grace, from false teaching as it is revealed to me. Best regards. Cornie. Brian McFarlane wrote: Cornie, My understanding is that Paul, working from the basis of the OT mentioning a new covenant in Jer31:31-34, sees in that "new" that which he calls "better". In Heb1:1-9 Paul quite clearly states his understanding of the relationshp between a Son and God, and then indicates that that Son is Christ Jesus. Now I know absolutely nothing of the history of the transmission of the book of Hebrews from its time of writing down to the present day but I would venture to say that any errors that have occurred do not dramatically change the overall thrust of what the writer of the book has to offer. Your first quote from the "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to have been included for its clout value. It is such a general statement, and without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes. Any body who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an inspired, infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that were written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged them to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books that seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its manifold indiscretions. If I personally choose to give both testaments equal weight then I also choose not to bring into the discussion the manifold indiscretions of the Israelites throughout their history. The essence of the two revelations deals with how God graciously condescends to make Divine Love known to all of the Creator's dominion, whether or not many of those subjects are interested in what God has done for them. Brian Brian McFarlane wrote: > Cornie, > Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not be > accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it was > Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the Torah > into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no > need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true. > It may well come to pass that at the end of the scheme of things both > church and synagogue will stand under the same condemnation as Israel > as Paul wrote in Rom3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the > glory of God." > One testament is not more spiritual than the other. Both are > spiritual. Both, independent of the other, can bring a thirsting soul > to drink at still waters and to rest in green pastures. But if one > wants to see one testament as deficient and the other is better, then > to his eternal detriment he probably will. Ask God to talk to you > through both testaments and the Creator will. Ask God to talk to you > through the prognostications of men and the Creator probably wont. > Brian > Brian > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1462 - Release Date: 23/05/2008 7:20 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/ee3d005c/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 11:50:32 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:50:32 -0400 Subject: by Cornie going back to [Dialogue] The Old and the New In-Reply-To: <516d73340805230522w109241e1sce4c8a3172bf6263@mail.gmail.com> <485E5AB4.9080203@gninc.ca> References: <516d73340805230522w109241e1sce4c8a3172bf6263@mail.gmail.com> <485E5AB4.9080203@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Cornie, I so hope Brian gets a chance to read this. It goes into so much detail and really explains your position well. Thank you for writing it. I was very blessed by reading and studying what you wrote here. Shavua Tov, Abigail/Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:59 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: by Cornie going back to [Dialogue] The Old and the New Hey Brian, I have been so far behind checking my e-mails and know that I am not doing justice to not answer the thoughts you have suggested in the two following articles, that you likely have miss-understood, in the first article you write as follows: "Your first quote from the "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to have been included for its clout value. It is such a general statement, and without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes." And this is a repeat of what I wrote: ( I have quoted out of a book "The Noahide Code, A Guide to the Perplexed Christian" in which book it is high lighted how the New Testament has been corrupted, so much so, and I will quote: "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is the true New Testament." (end of quote). I hope this quote will not be misunderstood as an empty statement, or not academic. But concerning Paul, I am starting to wonder if his words could have been falsified enough to bring contention to his true desire to walk and teach in truth of Torah knowledge that he likely had.) So far my quote from which you take what seems to me you may be miss-understanding this as an empty statement, or as you say: "self canceling". I realize I likely should have explained a little more what a copy righted book is saying, I did not feel free to copy without permission, referring to the "Noahide Code", please bear with me here and I will try to explain myself as late as this comes from the time you wrote that. First, I highly respect the obligation that Judah has received to safe guard and preserve the Torah as authentic Word of HaShem, the Jewish peoples wrongs included as well as the things they did right, which is irrelevant (meaning what they did right or wrong) to what I wrote this quote from "The Noahide Code" for. I want to be understood right what I meant to say, being, that I gave a wrong impression of that book. The "Noahide Code" is a book I would highly recommend to read, and can get information of it from: For help with any of our online services, please email the store-owner: CustomerCare at NoahideNations.com. What I was writing about is concerning a falsehood that I have believed most of my life, that "the New Testament is concealed in the Old T. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New T." A thought that I can no longer support. And this is the main reason I quoted from "The Noahide Code". To my view the two books, the "so called Old T.and the New T.do not agree, as both being inspired by the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.You can take a book of Isaiah printed 1500 years later than a copy from the find in the Quamram Caves, written 1500 years apart and they will be identical. And authentic to the time it was written.Thanks to the Jewish people for having honored and preserved this blueprint for righteous and holy living. If you know Hebrew, in the original you will not find a prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14. Not so with the New Testament. The N.T. is falsified, together with modern translations of the Old T. To make Isaiah 7:14 an original virgin birth prophecy, of which none is to be found in the original Hebrew Torah and Tanach. This is one example only of the distortion of the New T to claim false teaching. You know that what has not been falsified by translations, like the King James for example, concerning Isaiah 7:14, where Matthew 1 claims a prophecy of Jesus to be born of a virgin is supposed to have been prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. Yes I believe the translations of the Old Testament have been badly corrupted too. But you can always go and grab the zitzit of a righteous Jew and ask them what does the original say, right? But you just can not say this of the New Testament, or can you? According to my limited understanding the New Testament writings, all written later, can not be trusted to have such a backup at all, and although the original writers may have been very sincere, why is it that it has not been preserved, like the Torah of Moses' time, the Old Testament has been? That is why I quoted "There is no single New Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This is the true New Testament." The Noahide Code is not a book to be looked down on as a mere book as you seem to say Brian "without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes." And the reason you made that statement very likely is my fault, because I did not explain it clear enough. This book has only 120 pages, out of which 33 pages are notes taken from writers such as Bart D Ehrman, in fact 4 of these pages are the bibliography of writers the content of this book is taken from. A little later you write, as you can check it out in the later part of the following article from you. ( I quote again what you write) "Any body who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an inspired, infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that were written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged them to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books that seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its manifold indiscretions." Brian I know that the Noahide Code as well as many other books are not comparable to the inspired Word of HaShem given to Moses and the prophets, and Yeshuah may be included as a prophet. But what you will find in a book like "The Noahide Code" is that the author has not just made absent minded predictions out of his own head, but is very careful with facts explaining how they can find that copies written on certain skins, or papyrus, or found as one written in such a time and others earlier or later. If for example they find a text of the book of John that is older not including the story of the adulteress who was caught in the act in John 8, it was likely a story that was added later, and not originally in the book of John. I just wanted you people in the dialog not to get a wrong impression of a book that I quoted a few lines from, like "The Noahide Code"just because I did not give enough description of what it is about. I do that more times, I am used to not being contested like this when I have been too much on my own. I love this challenge, if for nothing more than to be corrected where I am wrong. But at this point I do not see the writers of the New Testament as inspired of the Holy Spirit, as much so as the Holy Prophets of the Old Testament. In your second article below the following one, you write as follows: "Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not be accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it was Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the Torah into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true." This is my take about what you seem to see in this statement. I did not mean ever, that I was accusing G-d for giving Israel a dead Covenant. But If what the New T. claims to be quoting Paul to say is divinely inspired, and I quote out of Hebr.8:6 - 8 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better promises, v. 8 For if that first Covenant had been faultless (he is not talking about right or wrong people but about an everlasting Covenant given to His chosen people, all of Israel, not just the Jews). Now if this scripture written in the King James New Testament is by divine inspiration, in that case the Old Testament Covenant was at fault, and G-d who gave this everlasting Covenant to His chosen people for an everlasting Covenant, must have made a bad mistake. I did not and still do not claim that He did. But both are not right, which one is? Is it the the Everlasting Covenant that G-d gave to Moses on Mount Sinai? Or could it be that there is a false teaching that Paul is supposed to have taught by divine inspiration in the not so reliable New Testament, that seems to have Christianity by the throat? I am not sure what you mean Brian when you say: If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true".It seems to me people like you under the influence of the teaching of the New T.seem to feel obligated to twist the meaning of what we clearly read there to have to be divinely inspired. I understand the Covenant made at Mount Sinai with Moses is an everlasting Covenant with the same people, but since we, if we are a part of the exiled Ephraim, a part of Israel, Jacob's literal son's and daughters, have been deceived by such as I quoted out of Hebrew, once we will get our eye's opened to see such lies from our forefathers, the Catholic Church as an example, than and only than we will see this re-newed but same Covenant as something coming out of bondage in the flesh to a true freedom that will be pointed out to us by the coming Jewish Messiah. I am not blaming anyone, I have been there, done that, I do not look down on anyone who is still caught in this trap of believing the New Testament to be divine inspired pure Word of G-d. I believe that if this New T. is inspired ( after it has been falsified) it is inspired by a false pagan god, according to my view. ( I am referring to the falsification of what could be genuine truth) I stand to be corrected. As we read in the prayer for Ephraim: "Only because You have awakened us from our graves that we remember the wormwood and gall in our souls that we accumulated for centuries. Only by Your grace are we remembering Your works for us, and are aware of our bones coming together in the Valley of dry bones." I am still very likely not seeing all I need to see. But I want to repent by HaShem's grace, from false teaching as it is revealed to me. Best regards. Cornie. Brian McFarlane wrote: Cornie, My understanding is that Paul, working from the basis of the OT mentioning a new covenant in Jer31:31-34, sees in that "new" that which he calls "better". In Heb1:1-9 Paul quite clearly states his understanding of the relationshp between a Son and God, and then indicates that that Son is Christ Jesus. Now I know absolutely nothing of the history of the transmission of the book of Hebrews from its time of writing down to the present day but I would venture to say that any errors that have occurred do not dramatically change the overall thrust of what the writer of the book has to offer. Your first quote from the "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to have been included for its clout value. It is such a general statement, and without any sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes. Any body who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an inspired, infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that were written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged them to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books that seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its manifold indiscretions. If I personally choose to give both testaments equal weight then I also choose not to bring into the discussion the manifold indiscretions of the Israelites throughout their history. The essence of the two revelations deals with how God graciously condescends to make Divine Love known to all of the Creator's dominion, whether or not many of those subjects are interested in what God has done for them. Brian Brian McFarlane wrote: Cornie, Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not be accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it was Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the Torah into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and true. It may well come to pass that at the end of the scheme of things both church and synagogue will stand under the same condemnation as Israel as Paul wrote in Rom3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." One testament is not more spiritual than the other. Both are spiritual. Both, independent of the other, can bring a thirsting soul to drink at still waters and to rest in green pastures. But if one wants to see one testament as deficient and the other is better, then to his eternal detriment he probably will. Ask God to talk to you through both testaments and the Creator will. Ask God to talk to you through the prognostications of men and the Creator probably wont. Brian Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1462 - Release Date: 23/05/2008 7:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/4593a46f/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 22 12:37:12 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Addition to the lisr=t Message-ID: <212970.35480.qm@web82503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please add Inju Sullivan to the dialogue list. Her e-mail address is injullee2002 at yahoo.com. She was not able to successfully do this herself/ Thanks and kind regards, Shalom, Helen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/b953070d/attachment.html From Correim at gninc.ca Sun Jun 22 13:03:58 2008 From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:03:58 -0500 Subject: by Cornie going back to [Dialogue] The Old and the New In-Reply-To: References: <516d73340805230522w109241e1sce4c8a3172bf6263@mail.gmail.com> <485E5AB4.9080203@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <485E940E.9020702@gninc.ca> Thank you Pat, I hoped it would be understandable, and not too confusing. Your response is apreciated. Cornie Pat Robbins wrote: > Cornie, I so hope Brian gets a chance to read this. It goes into so > much detail and really explains your position well. Thank you for > writing it. I was very blessed by reading and studying what you wrote > here. > > Shavua Tov, > > Abigail/Pat > > *From:* Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:59 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: by Cornie going back to [Dialogue] The Old and the New > > Hey Brian, I have been so far behind checking my e-mails and know that > I am not doing justice to not answer the thoughts you have suggested > in the two following articles, that you likely have miss-understood, > in the first article you write as follows: "Your first quote from the > "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to have been included for its > clout value. It is such a general statement, and without any sort of > contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far as our > present discussion goes." > > And this is a repeat of what I wrote: ( I have quoted out of a book > "The Noahide Code, A Guide to the Perplexed Christian" in which book > it is high lighted how the New Testament has been corrupted, so much > so, and I will quote: "There is no single New Testament text that a > Christian can honestly point to and say, This is *the true* New > Testament." (end of quote). I hope this quote will not be > misunderstood as an empty statement, or not academic. But concerning > Paul, I am starting to wonder if his words could have been falsified > enough to bring contention to his true desire to walk and teach in > truth of Torah knowledge that he likely had.) So far my quote from > which you take what seems to me you may be miss-understanding this as > an empty statement, or as you say: "self canceling". I realize I > likely should have explained a little more what a copy righted book is > saying, I did not feel free to copy without permission, referring to > the "Noahide Code", please bear with me here and I will try to explain > myself as late as this comes from the time you wrote that. > > First, I highly respect the obligation that Judah has received to safe > guard and preserve the Torah as authentic Word of HaShem, the Jewish > peoples wrongs included as well as the things they did right, which is > irrelevant (meaning what they did right or wrong) to what I wrote this > quote from "The Noahide Code" for. I want to be understood right what > I meant to say, being, that I gave a wrong impression of that book. > The "Noahide Code" is a book I would highly recommend to read, and can > get information of it from: > For help with any of our online services, please email the store-owner: CustomerCare at NoahideNations.com. > > > What I was writing about is concerning a falsehood that I have > believed most of my life, that "the New Testament is concealed in the > Old T. and the Old Testament is revealed in the New T." A thought that > I can no longer support. And this is the main reason I quoted from > "The Noahide Code". To my view the two books, the "so called Old T.and > the New T.do not agree, as both being inspired by the God of Abraham > Isaac and Jacob.You can take a book of Isaiah printed 1500 years later > than a copy from the find in the Quamram Caves, written 1500 years > apart and they will be identical. And authentic to the time it was > written.Thanks to the Jewish people for having honored and preserved > this blueprint for righteous and holy living. If you know Hebrew, in > the original you will not find a prophecy of a virgin birth in Isaiah > 7:14. Not so with the New Testament. The N.T. is falsified, together > with modern translations of the Old T. To make Isaiah 7:14 an original > virgin birth prophecy, of which none is to be found in the original > Hebrew Torah and Tanach. This is one example only of the distortion of > the New T to claim false teaching. > You know that what has not been falsified by translations, like the > King James for example, concerning Isaiah 7:14, where Matthew 1 claims > a prophecy of Jesus to be born of a virgin is supposed to have been > prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. Yes I believe the translations of the Old > Testament have been badly corrupted too. But you can always go and > grab the zitzit of a righteous Jew and ask them what does the original > say, right? But you just can not say this of the New Testament, or can > you? > > According to my limited understanding the New Testament writings, all > written later, can not be trusted to have such a backup at all, and > although the original writers may have been very sincere, why is it > that it has not been preserved, like the Torah of Moses' time, the Old > Testament has been? That is why I quoted "There is no single New > Testament text that a Christian can honestly point to and say, This > is *the true* New Testament." The Noahide Code is not a book to be > looked down on as a mere book as you seem to say Brian "without any > sort of contextual back up, that it is almost self-cancelling as far > as our present discussion goes." And the reason you made that > statement very likely is my fault, because I did not explain it clear > enough. This book has only 120 pages, out of which 33 pages are notes > taken from writers such as Bart D Ehrman, in fact 4 of these pages are > the bibliography of writers the content of this book is taken from. > > A little later you write, as you can check it out in the later part of > the following article from you. ( I quote again what you write) "Any > body who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an > inspired, infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that > were written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged > them to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books > that seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its > manifold indiscretions." > > Brian I know that the Noahide Code as well as many other books are > not comparable to the inspired Word of HaShem given to Moses and the > prophets, and Yeshuah may be included as a prophet. But what you will > find in a book like "The Noahide Code" is that the author has not just > made absent minded predictions out of his own head, but is very > careful with facts explaining how they can find that copies written on > certain skins, or papyrus, or found as one written in such a time and > others earlier or later. If for example they find a text of the book > of John that is older not including the story of the adulteress who > was caught in the act in John 8, it was likely a story that was added > later, and not originally in the book of John. > > I just wanted you people in the dialog not to get a wrong impression > of a book that I quoted a few lines from, like "The Noahide Code"just > because I did not give enough description of what it is about. I do > that more times, I am used to not being contested like this when I > have been too much on my own. I love this challenge, if for nothing > more than to be corrected where I am wrong. But at this point I do not > see the writers of the New Testament as inspired of the Holy Spirit, > as much so as the Holy Prophets of the Old Testament. > > In your second article below the following one, you write as follows: > "Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not > be accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it > was Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the > Torah into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there would > be no need for something new, because it would have remained alive and > true." > > This is my take about what you seem to see in this statement. I did > not mean ever, that I was accusing G-d for giving Israel a dead > Covenant. But If what the New T. claims to be quoting Paul to say is > divinely inspired, and I quote out of Hebr.8:6 - 8 But now hath he > obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the > mediator of a _better_ Covenant, which was established upon _better_ > promises, v. 8 For if that _first Covenant had been faultless_ (he is > not talking about right or wrong people but about an everlasting > Covenant given to His chosen people, all of Israel, not just the > Jews). Now if this scripture written in the King James New Testament > is by divine inspiration, in that case the Old Testament Covenant was > at fault, and G-d who gave this everlasting Covenant to His chosen > people for an everlasting Covenant, must have made a bad mistake. I > did not and still do not claim that He did. But both are not right, > which one is? Is it the the Everlasting Covenant that G-d gave to > Moses on Mount Sinai? Or could it be that there is a false teaching > that Paul is supposed to have taught by divine inspiration in the not > so reliable New Testament, that seems to have Christianity by the throat? > > I am not sure what you mean Brian when you say: If "all of Israel" > had been obedient there would be no need for something new, because it > would have remained alive and true".It seems to me people like you > under the influence of the teaching of the New T.seem to feel > obligated to twist the meaning of what we clearly read there to have > to be divinely inspired. I understand the Covenant made at Mount > Sinai with Moses is an everlasting Covenant with the same people, but > since we, if we are a part of the exiled Ephraim, a part of Israel, > Jacob's literal son's and daughters, have been deceived by such as I > quoted out of Hebrew, once we will get our eye's opened to see such > lies from our forefathers, the Catholic Church as an example, than and > only than we will see this re-newed but same Covenant as something > coming out of bondage in the flesh to a true freedom that will be > pointed out to us by the coming Jewish Messiah. > > I am not blaming anyone, I have been there, done that, I do not look > down on anyone who is still caught in this trap of believing the New > Testament to be divine inspired pure Word of G-d. I believe that if > this New T. is inspired ( after it has been falsified) it is inspired > by a false pagan god, according to my view. ( I am referring to the > falsification of what could be genuine truth) I stand to be corrected. > > As we read in the prayer for Ephraim: "Only because You have awakened > us from our graves that we remember the wormwood and gall in our souls > that we accumulated for centuries. Only by Your grace are we > remembering Your works for us, and are aware of our bones coming > together in the Valley of dry bones." > > I am still very likely not seeing all I need to see. But I want to > repent by HaShem's grace, from false teaching as it is revealed to me. > Best regards. > > Cornie. > > > > Brian McFarlane wrote: > > Cornie, > My understanding is that Paul, working from the basis of the OT > mentioning a new covenant in Jer31:31-34, sees in that "new" that > which he calls "better". In Heb1:1-9 Paul quite clearly states his > understanding of the relationshp between a Son and God, and then > indicates that that Son is Christ Jesus. Now I know absolutely nothing > of the history of the transmission of the book of Hebrews from its > time of writing down to the present day but I would venture to say > that any errors that have occurred do not dramatically change the > overall thrust of what the writer of the book has to offer. > Your first quote from the "Noahide Code" seems regretfully only to > have been included for its clout value. It is such a general > statement, and without any sort of contextual back up, that it is > almost self-cancelling as far as our present discussion goes. Any body > who proposes to speak fairly on behalf of the NT, not as an inspired, > infallible set of texts, but as a collection of texts that were > written by people who felt that the Spirit of God had encouraged them > to write, has an uphill battle to deal with an abundance of books that > seem to be wanting to box the church around the ears for its manifold > indiscretions. If I personally choose to give both testaments equal > weight then I also choose not to bring into the discussion the > manifold indiscretions of the Israelites throughout their history. The > essence of the two revelations deals with how God graciously > condescends to make Divine Love known to all of the Creator's > dominion, whether or not many of those subjects are interested in what > God has done for them. > Brian > > Brian McFarlane wrote: >> Cornie, >> Your question 8 seems to draw some invalid conclusions. God can not >> be accused of giving Israel a dead thing or a false Torah, because it >> was Israel herself who made the covenant a dead thing, who made the >> Torah into a falsity. If "all of Israel" had been obedient there >> would be no need for something new, because it would have remained >> alive and true. >> It may well come to pass that at the end of the scheme of things both >> church and synagogue will stand under the same condemnation as Israel >> as Paul wrote in Rom3:23, "For all have sinned and come short of the >> glory of God." >> One testament is not more spiritual than the other. Both are >> spiritual. Both, independent of the other, can bring a thirsting soul >> to drink at still waters and to rest in green pastures. But if one >> wants to see one testament as deficient and the other is better, then >> to his eternal detriment he probably will. Ask God to talk to you >> through both testaments and the Creator will. Ask God to talk to you >> through the prognostications of men and the Creator probably wont. >> Brian >> Brian >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1462 - Release Date: 23/05/2008 7:20 AM >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1513 - Release Date: 22/06/2008 7:52 AM > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/29268a83/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 15:12:55 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:12:55 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Noahide Code Message-ID: <516d73340806221312m77098a47w71d93f03e0f66ade@mail.gmail.com> G'day Cornie, Many thanks for your response. I am currently reading a couple of books that are opening me up to a modification of my own personal understandings of the interelationships between the three major monotheistic religions (Bruce Chilton's "Abraham'sCurse: The roots of violence in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam") and early church origins (Ron Moseley's "Yeshua: A guide to the real Jesus and the original church"). When I first came to this group I asked that both Testaments be given equal value in order for dialogue to progress. This does not necessarily mean that we need to accept the same level of divine inspiration for both, but that both come out of their writers' self-understanding that God has led them all to write.At this point I would believe that I would find it difficult to continue to dialogue even-handedly with you because you believe that there is no value in continuing to give the N.T. a reasonable hearing. That Is your deliberate, conscientious, and heart-felt choice and I can not call you into question for that. I do not personally feel as if I am caught in a trap but that God is leading me to greater and clearer understandings that will serve me well in my service and worship of God. Likewise I do not feel it is necessary to withdraw my original responses to your input. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/ece382f3/attachment.html From RNDAVAR at aol.com Sun Jun 22 17:05:38 2008 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:05:38 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul - Eternal Life Message-ID: Shalom, I just wanted to remind everyone that Sunday Shul starts at 7:00 P.M. central time tonight. I want to encourage you to listen in live if you can, but for those that cannot, the class should be on the web by 10:00 PM central. I have a sense that tonight's class will be quite beneficial for many. The basis for tonight's class is the conversation between Yeshua and Nicodemus on "eternal life". Drawing from (1) the gospels, (2) a bizarre story from the Torah (one of the strangest) and (3) the prophets, I will attempt to expound on this idea. I feel that this is a message that should be shouted from the rooftops! I hope that you can join us at the synagogue without walls for this teaching. I feel a sense of "burden" around it. _http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm_ (http://rootsoffaith.org/Audio_Torah.htm) Shalom, Ross Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/7e90e6a0/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Jun 22 20:39:03 2008 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:39:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Brachot, Ross! Message-ID: Thank you for being a shepherd after HaSHem's Own heart, Ross. You teach His Word and you bless His people. You are teaching us what Yeshua meant in the Hebraic context from which he spoke. You are testifying for Yeshua. With much love and appreciation, Avigail/Pat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/cc02efdc/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Jun 22 21:25:58 2008 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 22:25:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Noahide Code In-Reply-To: <516d73340806221312m77098a47w71d93f03e0f66ade@mail.gmail.com> References: <516d73340806221312m77098a47w71d93f03e0f66ade@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01c8d4d8$7a48e080$0400a8c0@marvin> Brian, I'm sorry to hear you will be leaving the dialogue list. Many here have many different opinions as to the validity of different text. Sometimes I feel like a bunny rabbit hopping back and forth. However, I continue because like you I believe "God is leading me into greater and clearer understandings". I currently am reading several books, some I have finished and still working on others. Jesus Dynasty, Dr. Tabor, The First Messiah, M. Wise, How Jesus Became a Christian, Barrie Wilson..(This one got me jumping up and down.. Can't say I agree with it all and some of his claims I think are weak, but he accomplished what any good teacher wants to do and that is get a student to think, rethink and question their position.) And Paul the Convert by Alan Segal. A good book with lots of research involved in writing it. Something I learned in the last few days. Barrie Wilson espoused a late date(90-120) for the Luke -Acts books and that these were written to bolster the current ties or to create ties between the Jewish Movement that believed Jesus was Messiah and the More Proto-Orthodox movement made up of Paul and mostly gentiles that were turning the historical Jesus into a divine-virgin born man-god Messiah. If The writer of Luke-Acts was influence by current events and thus Luke-Acts is not truly a historical document as once thought about the formation of the early church. (the book is a good read). Then we start to see where the text becomes a creation of men who were trying to understand what had transpired or what did not transpire in their life times. These men of the N.T. had a believe and faith in the GOD of their fathers. They I believe were righteous Jews. But when reality met expectation... well .. we see what happened to the text of the New testament. If you read my previous post - "Jihad Candidate" take another look at the quote form Dr. Tabor about the Text, the Interpreter and the Fluid context. This was happening in the first and second century before Jesus and also in the first and second century after Jesus and it is still happening 2000 years later. Alan Segal in Paul the Convert, page 85-114, says that After the 68-74 C.E. time period the Jews went through a period of disfavor. Rome took the temple tax. Jews were not allow in the city. (Remember what I said about reading the Newspaper. Hadrian's descendants are trying to do it again.) Domitian instituted a system to ferret out converts to Judaism. Hadrian out lawed circumcision. Below is a short excerpt from Wekipedia. The Second Roman-Jewish War Further information: Bar Kokhba revolt In 130, Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem left after the First Roman-Jewish War of 66-73. He promised to rebuild the city, but planning it as a pagan metropolis to be called Aelia Capitolina . A new pagan temple on the ruins of the Second Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter. [18] In addition, Hadrian abolished circumcision ( brit milah), which he, as an avid Hellenist, viewed as mutilation. [19] A Roman coin inscribed Aelia Capitolina was issued in 132. Hadrian's policies triggered the massive Jewish uprising (132-135), led by Bar Kokhba and Akiba ben Joseph. Following the outbreak of the revolt, Hadrian called his general Sextus Julius Severus from Britain , and troops were brought from as far as the Danube . Roman losses were very heavy, and it is believed that an entire legion, the XXII Deiotariana was destroyed. [20] Roman losses were so heavy that Hadrian's report to the Roman Senate omitted the customary salutation "I and the legions are well" [21] . Hadrian's army eventually defeated the revolt however. According to Cassius Dio , during the war 580,000 Jews were killed, 50 fortified towns and 985 villages razed. After the end of the war, Hadrian continued the religious persecution of Jews, according to the Babylonian Talmud [22] . He attempted to root out Judaism , which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions, prohibited the Torah law, the Hebrew calendar and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scroll was ceremoniously burned on the Temple Mount. At the former Temple sanctuary, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter , another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea , he removed the name from the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina, after the Philistines , the ancient enemies of the Jews. He re-established Jerusalem as the Roman pagan polis of Aelia Capitolina, and Jews were forbidden from entering it. Now Segal also says that after the Temple was destroyed one custom was permitted to the highly committed god-fearers that was not permitted to the Jews. Get this, the Jews were not allow legally to enter the city and they could not make sacrifice, however the gentile god-fearers were allow to. WOW.. Gentile God fearers making sacrifice after the DBR of Jesus! Now, yes we could make the argument that these were converts to Judaism and not believers in Jesus... But then, if the writer of Luke is trying to tell his history as it happened but then with a mindfulness of current events and Hadrian had outlawed circumsion and converting to Judaism I got to thinking... maybe the council of Acts 15 is not the whole story. In Judaism at this time was a very big discussion about god-fearers, converts and conversion and what those requirements were. The Rabbis had many ways to approach inclusion, but their solution was to enforce a standard definition. Circumcision, was fully discussed and universally demanded.. WOW. My big question? What is going to happen when we cross the River Jordan to enter the Promise land? Will history repeat itself as it was with Moses? Will there be a circumcision party? Geeeeeeez! My point, if Wilson is correct for a late dating of Luke- Acts from 90 -120 or so, then his questioning of the text could put us males into rethinking some of our view points. History tells us and interesting story as the tapestry of truth and half-truths are woven into the picture of history we want to see. Take care, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Brian McFarlane Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 4:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Noahide Code G'day Cornie, Many thanks for your response. I am currently reading a couple of books that are opening me up to a modification of my own personal understandings of the interelationships between the three major monotheistic religions (Bruce Chilton's "Abraham'sCurse: The roots of violence in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam") and early church origins (Ron Moseley's "Yeshua: A guide to the real Jesus and the original church"). When I first came to this group I asked that both Testaments be given equal value in order for dialogue to progress. This does not necessarily mean that we need to accept the same level of divine inspiration for both, but that both come out of their writers' self-understanding that God has led them all to write.At this point I would believe that I would find it difficult to continue to dialogue even-handedly with you because you believe that there is no value in continuing to give the N.T. a reasonable hearing. That Is your deliberate, conscientious, and heart-felt choice and I can not call you into question for that. I do not personally feel as if I am caught in a trap but that God is leading me to greater and clearer understandings that will serve me well in my service and worship of God. Likewise I do not feel it is necessary to withdraw my original responses to your input. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/fd85eeae/attachment.html From brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 21:43:10 2008 From: brian.l.mc.1 at gmail.com (Brian McFarlane) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:43:10 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Noahide Code Message-ID: <516d73340806221943r5d75c63fg1f3b90f00c13264a@mail.gmail.com> G'day Marvin, I am not leaving the list. I am rather choosing not to dialogue with Cornie because he has chosen a close minded stance that I personally believe runs counter to the overall intent of the Dialogue list. Cornie has a message that is of value to many on this list but it is not of value to me. My eternal well being is in God's hands and He will lead me as I am prepared to read and assess. Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/54ca0939/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 23 06:03:12 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:03:12 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Today's Lekarev Report Message-ID: The Lekarev Report 20 Sivan 5768 June 23, 2008 Shalom Oh that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When Hashem turns the captivity of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad. Psalm 14:7 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/99da3a72/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 23 06:23:44 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:23:44 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Shelach Message-ID: Shelach: Don't Tread on Me by Rabbi S. Weiss Don't blame the innocent Land of Israel. My Rebbe, z.t.l., would sometimes ask us, "What does the term Simchat Torah mean?" Not the holiday at the end of Sukkot, but the literal meaning of the words. "It's the happiness of the Torah," he said, "the feeling of joy the Torah itself experiences when we dance with it and around it and in honor of it. The Torah actually feels joy and exhilaration." That is why our Torah is called Torat Chayim - "a living Torah". It contains the past, present and future, it gives us life ("ki haym chay'aynu") and it has life. But the Torah is not the only (seemingly) inanimate object to take on human qualities. The Land of Israel is also Torah and the Land are only seemingly inanimate. unique among all the lands of the world in that it, too, can experience the gamut of emotions normally reserved for human beings. One such emotion is joy, as David HaMelech so often expresses in Tehilim: Yis'm'chu hashamayim v'tagel ha'aretz - the earth will rejoice. But the Land can also feel pain and sadness, and anger. When the Meraglim in our parsha slander Israel - "this is a Land that devours its inhabitants," they conclude - the insult cannot be taken lying down. The Land rises up, as it were, and declares: "These people who spoke evil against me and insulted me - they will not be allowed to set foot on me again, nor will they enjoy the bounty that I produce, nor will they be privileged to build a home on top of me." And so, a whole generation of almost 600,000 people will wander the desert for 40 years and die before the Land is ready to open its doors again to us. As the word Eretz implies, the Land has a will (ratzon) of its own. It is one thing to critique and criticize the people who inhabit the Land - the leaders, in particular, are subject to close scrutiny - but it is quite another thing to blame the innocent Land. This is a message for Jews everywhere, in every generation: be careful not to confuse the Land and those who currently occupy it. The inhabitants may come in all shades of color and quality; they may be exalted or lowly, incredible tzadikim or incompetent bunglers. But the Land has eternal, unfailing holiness in every inch and in every era. And it has no equal anywhere else on Earth. The name Yisrael is composed of two words: the suffix is El, G-d. Certainly, this Land has an extra measure of G-dliness, and is a place "where HaShem's gaze is always focused." But the prefix is yashar: "straight", "honest", "not crooked". When we finally get the right match - pure, proud leaders in our pure and perfect Land - we will be a lot further down the road to our total Redemption. 17 Sivan 5768 / 20 June 08 **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/276c29ae/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 23 06:32:35 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:32:35 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] GREAT video!!!!! Mordechai Kedar in al-Jazeera about Jerusalem & Islam Message-ID: GREAT video!!!! Hanoch _Click here: YouTube - Mordechai Kedar in al-Jazeera about Jerusalem & Islam_ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpMhAzj-Tk) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/f1ba0eed/attachment.html From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Jun 23 08:04:23 2008 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:04:23 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] And THIS is from our "friends" Message-ID: Shalom L'Kulchem, This is part of what Israel's "great friend" Sarkozy had to say; the 'red' are my highlights. Watch...down the road there will be Foreign troops called in to remove Jews and be "peacekeepers." Whether it's under the guise of NATO, the EU, the Quartet, or any other group...it's going to happen, G-d forbid. Unless we're willing to do something about it..... Hanoch Sarkozy: "Move Jews Out of Judea and Samaria" by Hana Levi Julian and Hillel Fendel French President Nicolas Sarkozy asked the Knesset on Monday to recognize that "France will always be Israel's friend" - and promptly called for the division of Jerusalem and for the expulsion of the Jews from Judea and Samaria. Speaking in French from the Knesset podium at a special session held in his honor, Sarkozy said, "Israel will always be every Jewish person's sanctuary. It is the only place where Jews will always be safe." He also called on the Palestinians to stop terrorism against Israel. Having received a red-carpet welcome from the Israeli government, Sarkozy vowed, "France will always be Israel's friend and will always stand in the way of those calling to destroy it." Stop Construction, Deport Jews, Divide Jerusalem He emphasized, however, that there will never be peace in the Middle East until Israel stops building in Judea and Samaria, and said that the Knesset should pass a law to compensate and deport all the Jews currently living there. Sarkozy further said that Jerusalem must be divided into two capitals, including one for a future Palestinian state. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/e1cab2a3/attachment.html From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 23 08:27:59 2008 From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 06:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Shelach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <380633.40800.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Shalom Hanoch, L LOVE IT!!! Have a blessed day, Linda YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shelach: Don't Tread on Me by Rabbi S. Weiss Don't blame the innocent Land of Israel. My Rebbe, z.t.l., would sometimes ask us, "What does the term Simchat Torah mean?" Not the holiday at the end of Sukkot, but the literal meaning of the words. "It's the happiness of the Torah," he said, "the feeling of joy the Torah itself experiences when we dance with it and around it and in honor of it. The Torah actually feels joy and exhilaration." That is why our Torah is called Torat Chayim - "a living Torah". It contains the past, present and future, it gives us life ("ki haym chay'aynu") and it has life. But the Torah is not the only (seemingly) inanimate object to take on human qualities. The Land of Israel is also Torah and the Land are only seemingly inanimate. unique among all the lands of the world in that it, too, can experience the gamut of emotions normally reserved for human beings. One such emotion is joy, as David HaMelech so often expresses in Tehilim: Yis'm'chu hashamayim v'tagel ha'aretz - the earth will rejoice. But the Land can also feel pain and sadness, and anger. When the Meraglim in our parsha slander Israel - "this is a Land that devours its inhabitants," they conclude - the insult cannot be taken lying down. The Land rises up, as it were, and declares: "These people who spoke evil against me and insulted me - they will not be allowed to set foot on me again, nor will they enjoy the bounty that I produce, nor will they be privileged to build a home on top of me." And so, a whole generation of almost 600,000 people will wander the desert for 40 years and die before the Land is ready to open its doors again to us. As the word Eretz implies, the Land has a will (ratzon) of its own. It is one thing to critique and criticize the people who inhabit the Land - the leaders, in particular, are subject to close scrutiny - but it is quite another thing to blame the innocent Land. This is a message for Jews everywhere, in every generation: be careful not to confuse the Land and those who currently occupy it. The inhabitants may come in all shades of color and quality; they may be exalted or lowly, incredible tzadikim or incompetent bunglers. But the Land has eternal, unfailing holiness in every inch and in every era. And it has no equal anywhere else on Earth. The name Yisrael is composed of two words: the suffix is El, G-d. Certainly, this Land has an extra measure of G-dliness, and is a place "where HaShem's gaze is always focused." But the prefix is yashar: "straight", "honest", "not crooked". When we finally get the right match - pure, proud leaders in our pure and perfect Land - we will be a lot further down the road to our total Redemption. 17 Sivan 5768 / 20 June 08 --------------------------------- Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/88232494/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Jun 23 09:00:17 2008 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:00:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Shelach In-Reply-To: <380633.40800.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And me too, Hanoch. Reading it with the background of listening to John singing the Shema and Glenn singing Psalm 1 was amazingly refreshing and moving! The Land does indeed have a "life" of its own as does the Torah, and feels both joy and sorrow. May HaShem move us to continually intercede not only for its people, both there and those "afar" from Judah and Ephraim and the tribes, but also for the redemption of the Land from those who would destroy her! The Lekarev Report from Psalm 14:7 was perfect for this today! "Oh that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When HaShem turns the captivity of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad." May HaShem bless you and keep you today, Hanoch. Toda rabba for all the little messages of encouragement you continually send out way! Love and Blessings to all! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rudolph Ricciardi Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 8:28 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Parshat Shelach Shalom Hanoch, L LOVE IT!!! Have a blessed day, Linda YoungBarzel at aol.com wrote: Shelach: Don't Tread on Me by Rabbi S. Weiss Don't blame the innocent Land of Israel. My Rebbe, z.t.l., would sometimes ask us, "What does the term Simchat Torah mean?" Not the holiday at the end of Sukkot, but the literal meaning of the words. "It's the happiness of the Torah," he said, "the feeling of joy the Torah itself experiences when we dance with it and around it and in honor of it. The Torah actually feels joy and exhilaration." That is why our Torah is called Torat Chayim - "a living Torah". It contains the past, present and future, it gives us life ("ki haym chay'aynu") and it has life. But the Torah is not the only (seemingly) inanimate object to take on human qualities. The Land of Israel is also Torah and the Land are only seemingly inanimate. unique among all the lands of the world in that it, too, can experience the gamut of emotions normally reserved for human beings. One such emotion is joy, as David HaMelech so often expresses in Tehilim: Yis'm'chu hashamayim v'tagel ha'aretz - the earth will rejoice. But the Land can also feel pain and sadness, and anger. When the Meraglim in our parsha slander Israel - "this is a Land that devours its inhabitants," they conclude - the insult cannot be taken lying down. The Land rises up, as it were, and declares: "These people who spoke evil against me and insulted me - they will not be allowed to set foot on me again, nor will they enjoy the bounty that I produce, nor will they be privileged to build a home on top of me." And so, a whole generation of almost 600,000 people will wander the desert for 40 years and die before the Land is ready to open its doors again to us. As the word Eretz implies, the Land has a will (ratzon) of its own. It is one thing to critique and criticize the people who inhabit the Land - the leaders, in particular, are subject to close scrutiny - but it is quite another thing to blame the innocent Land. This is a message for Jews everywhere, in every generation: be careful not to confuse the Land and those who currently occupy it. The inhabitants may come in all shades of color and quality; they may be exalted or lowly, incredible tzadikim or incompetent bunglers. But the Land has eternal, unfailing holiness in every inch and in every era. And it has no equal anywhere else on Earth. The name Yisrael is composed of two words: the suffix is El, G-d. Certainly, this Land has an extra measure of G-dliness, and is a place "where HaShem's gaze is always focused." But the prefix is yashar: "straight", "honest", "not crooked". When we finally get the right match - pure, proud leaders in our pure and perfect Land - we will be a lot further down the road to our total Redemption. 17 Sivan 5768 / 20 June 08 _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . _______________________________________________ Shalom to all! Linda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/b813495b/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Jun 13 16:49:08 2008 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:49:08 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Confession Prayer III, Beha'Alotcha Message-ID: <200806132149.m5DLn4r0020366@mail2524.carrierzone.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/faa51223/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Confession Prayers III.doc Type: application/msword Size: 114176 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080613/faa51223/attachment.doc From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Jun 19 17:20:16 2008 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:20:16 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHABBAT SHALOM. Message-ID: <485ADBA0.6090901@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/c0cdc571/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: The Meaning of THE NAME.flv Type: video/x-flv Size: 3619265 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080620/c0cdc571/attachment.flv From calbfordham at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 09:35:23 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:35:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Sh'ma Yisrael: Beware -- You Are Now Officially About to Enter 'Yish'ma'el's World'!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bill Bullock Date: Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:12 AM Subject: Sh'ma Yisrael: Beware -- You Are Now Officially About to Enter 'Yish'ma'el's World'!!!! To: Bill Bullock *Shalom! ** **Attached is an Introductory study from Parsha Sh'lach which has been prepared for you by the Rabbi's son. * *The concluding portions of last week's parsha introduced us to the Wilderness of Paran. This place called Paran is going to be our 'new home' for quite awhile ? 38 1/2 years, as a matter of fact. So, let's try to get a little perspective on our new 'home away from home'. Paran is first mentioned in Torah as the barren area between Be'er-Sheva and Egypt to which Hagar and Yish'mael were exiled after being cast out of Avraham's camp. Warning!!! That means we are now smack dab in the middle of Yish'mael's world . What do I mean by the term 'Yish'ma'el's world, you ask? I mean a world where the 'spirit of Yishma'el' rules, reigns, and affects -- or at least threatens to infect -- anyone who enters that world. If the idea of entering such a world doesn't cause your heart to beat a little faster, and make your palms begin to sweat yet, Beloved, trust me, it will. Or at least it should. Because if you understand Yish'mael at all ? you will understand that his spirit is a very dangerous spirit ? and that his world sizes up to be a VERY dangerous place . . . ** . . . the kind of place where one false move could very easily mean death. The Rabbi's son* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/57a2642f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 37Intro68.doc Type: application/msword Size: 3230720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080619/57a2642f/attachment.doc From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 22 12:41:40 2008 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Message-ID: <261635.13840.qm@web82506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree! Thank you, Marvin. ----- Original Message ---- From: "CBrown4465 at aol.com" To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:49:50 AM Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE Great Marvin: ? Everyone should read your post more than once. ? Clyde. ? ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. -----Inline Message Follows----- Reply to All, ? I think that the subject matter at hand is relative to the debate or discussion.?? Although I would agree that we must not let it divide us in to the Two political camps of the day.? But we, I think would all agree that we are standing at the edge of the ?worm hole? or ?rip in the curtain of time?? or we are in ?the last days? if not in the last hours / minutes of the ?last day.?? A Christian minister who has died and passed form this life, related the story one time of how he was seeking God for understanding as to the fulfillment of bible prophecy and as he was seeking to understand the text he said he experience what he described as God speaking to him.? He prefaced his statement with the comment,? ?If I ever heard God speak to me in my life, I heard his voice this time.??? As the story goes, what he understood was that the people of God heard the prophets speak of what was coming as the Kingdom of God was being set up.? But he was told you will read of it in the Bible and then see it?s fulfillment on the front page of your newspaper.?? This you must understand coming from a man who was born at a time when Israel did not exist.? But read in his Bible that God would restore Israel to the land. ?And then one day reading his Bible he picked up the newspaper and ? Israel had became a nation?..? it?s 1948.?? Time went own and he studied the text some more and he noticed the scriptures spoke of Jerusalem and it being the Place where God was to dwell.? He picked up the Newspaper and the Jewish people had taken over the city, it was 1967.? I ?think you get my point. ? Dr. Tabor spoke of a? text, Interpreter of text and a fluid context.? We are part of the process, trying to see and understand the workings of God.?? Below is quote form Dr. Tabor. If you have not read the complete article you should. ? Taken from Dr James Tabor, website Patterns of the End: Textual Weaving from Qumran to Waco Paper given at the Princeton University Symposium on Messianism, March 1996. ? ?On Sunday morning, February 28, 1993, two years to the very day after the defeat of Saddam Hussein, as if prompted by some cosmic cue, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms carried out their ill-fated raid on Mt. Carmel, the communal center of the Branch Davidians a few miles outside Waco, Texas. Thus began a 51 day siege that ended in the incineration of the 74 inhabitants that had remained inside throughout this period. David Koresh spoke about being "in the fifth Seal" the very day of the BATF raid.. He was referring to his particular understanding of a sequence of events to unfold before the End, drawn primarily from the Seven-Sealed scroll of Revelation 6, but connected to a host of related texts throughout the Bible. What is operating here is a series of interpretive dynamics, well known to scholars of Jewish and Christian apocalypticism, that have played themselves out countless times in the past 2500 years. An understanding of these dynamics would have provided what appears to have been the best hope for a peaceful resolution of the Waco situation. Biblical apocalypticism involves the interplay of three basic elements: 1) The Sacred Text which is fixed and inviolate; 2) The inspired Interpreter who is involved in both transmitting and effecting the meaning of the Text; and 3) the fluid Context in which the interpreter/group finds itself. The Text functions as a kind of "map" of things to come, setting forth an "apocalyptic scenario" of end-time events. Koresh's "Text" was of course, the entire Bible, but particularly the books of Daniel, Revelation, the Psalms, Isaiah chapters 40-61, and the Minor Prophets, which he had woven into a prophetic complex that had deeply impressed his followers and convinced them that he was a prophet himself.? - Added emphasis mine. ?Although the Text itself is fixed and unchanging, mirroring in advance an almost fatalistic reflection of what "must happen," there are two variables in this scheme of things, allowing for a high degree of flexibility. First, the Interpreter is doing just that?interpreting?both the Text and the outside Context. And second, outside events are always changing and changeable. This was the key to effective negotiations during the entire 51 day standoff at Mt. Carmel . The government largely controlled the Context, or outside situation. Given this dynamic, this means that the FBI actually held within its control the ability to influence Koresh in his interpretations, and thus in his actions. Unfortunately, everything they did for 51 days, following the standard negotiation strategies and tactical quasi-military maneuvers developed in response to what they called "Hostage Rescue Barricade" situations, simply confirmed Koresh in his initial perception of the situation on February 28th?that that they were "in the fifth Seal," and that the entire situation might well have a tragic ending. In other words, the FBI played the perfect part of " Babylon " throughout, validating in every detail the interpretations of Scripture of both Koresh and his followers.? ? We should not let our political opinions divide us and we will all make our own decisions come November, but to ignore what is happening in our reality is to live wearing the ?rose colored glasses?.?? Also,? God builds um up?..? and God tries ?um down?? ?his purpose to perform.?? God does not tell us who to vote for, so we make our best choice.? ??Jeremiah Wright could be ?more prophetically correct then people want to think.? ?NO! NO! NO!, it?s not God Bless America , It?s ?@%$ ?&^*#?? !&*#$%^&. ?? I personally think judgment is coming to this country. ?In my mail box this morning, ?I found the ?following: ? ? Zephaniah 1:12?And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. ? God searches through the city? Jerusalem , Zion ?shining a light to reveal everyone to His judgment. No one escapes the judgment of God. Who is He looking for in particular? He looks for complacent men. ?Just as Hosea uses wine to illustrate the principle, Zephaniah also mentions wine though it is obscured in the translation: the words "settled in complacency" are literally "settled on their lees" like the dregs of wine (cf. the footnote on this verse, NKJV)! Again, the prophet speaks of a prosperous people who had deluded themselves into believing that their physical wealth meant that they were equally rich spiritually. As the years passed, their relationship with God had diminished into lip service and complacency. When God describes them saying things "in their heart," He means a reasoning process that happens internally. A person could not see it with his eyes, but the attitude cannot be hidden from the Judge walking the city with the lamp of truth. In today's parlance we call their problem "sins of omission." Like the Laodicean, the religious Jew of that day was not on the streets committing horrible crimes like murder or rape or armed robbery. These verses speak about the thousands and thousands of ordinary people who were stagnant and indifferent toward their relationship with God. Their problem was not what they did, but what they did not do. Nor does God accuse the Laodicean of the more apparent sins in Revelation 3. He is angry with him because of what he is not doing! He is not a true and faithful witness, and indeed cannot be, because of his poor judgment in prioritizing his life. In focusing on his selfish pursuits and self-centeredness, he leaves God almost completely out of his life. Still, he bears the name of God, attendsSabbath/ church services, and at least in a superficial way, worships God on the Sabbath/ Sunday. Yet the relationship is growing cold as he fails to seek Him earnestly as in courtship. The name Zephaniah (Tsephanya?h), i.e., he whom Jehovah hides or shelters.?? Is there a past, present, and future aspect to this book?? Yes, we agree there is a historical ?setting, but ?read the short book and replace Judah and Jerusalem with America and the religious privilege we have had and wasted. ??Zephaniah discusses the day of the Lord and describes the coming judgment upon Judah and the Nations. We have seen Judah ?s judgment(past) but what about the Nations(present / future). ? ? Zep 1:14? The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15? That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, Zep 1:16? A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. Zep 1:17? And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Eze 30:3? For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. Joe 1:15? Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Joe 3:14? Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Amo 5:18? Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. ??Amos says; Woe to you that desire the day of the Lord???? it is a day of darkness.?? Think about this?.. ? Amo 5:20? Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? ? Oba 1:15? For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen:( judgment in this verse is to whom?) ?as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. ? Zephaniah speaks of judgment on the nations, the land(world) and those that practice Idolatry. ?He then speaks of the way to escape some of the judgment is to REPENT. ?Then he proceeds to tell us??? ? Zep 3:8? Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zep 3:9? For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. ? God will sent the ?fishers and then the Hunters?? something has to cause Judah / Ephraim to return home.? Maybe this war that is now called a war on terror will one day be called a war with Islam and we will think of it in terms of the Arm of the Lord, or the Sword that God sends to the nations. He said in 3:6 ?he would cut off the nations?.? Does God have an Arm, a Sword?? ??Obadiah said the day of the Lord is near upon the heathen??.?? Maybe the day of the Lord that is so terrible and awesome,? so dark and distressful is for the Nations only?? Judah has had her time of Judgment? ? So what are we to do, keep searching, dialoguing and waiting for Hashem!? ??Don?t forget to Pray! ? Shalom, marvin ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE ? Hello all, ? I feel I need to offer a reminder here. ? While I certainly am not contesting the validity of, or the need for, these arguments (indeed I share much in the way of opinion and leaning in regards to what is said in the previous statements), I think it might be time for us to review Ross's introduction to the Dialogue list on the Roots of Faith website (www.rootsoffaith.org).? ? It may not be a popular position to take but I think it is possible to negate the purpose of the Dialogue if we are not careful. ? Please search your own hearts and tell me if I am out of line.? I'm not saying that we should not be discussing these issues nor am I contesting their relevance to Ephraim's duty.? I'm just wondering if the Dialogue is the place to discuss them. ? Shalom. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "Gary Arvidson" : -------------- Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today Im what you might call, Blown Away by it all.? ? For me, this article was the final straw ?only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, Im pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? Ive discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldnt drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ?or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thingas being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carrolls article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ?and all the while ?people are going along blindly ?and being swayed by the rhetoric ?and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: if things get ugly, Ill side with the Muslims (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is in your face.? How does that make you feel ?especially when you are called Whitey?? To a very large part, Whitey can be interpreted as Ephraim (though most Americans wouldnt know it and/or believe it ?if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: Where is the outrage?? Cant something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ?that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet:Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ?and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ?and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and feel of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ?in the overall sense ?to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we dont know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ?whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraims identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? Thats another story.. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a work to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a dig in relation to preparing the way.? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ?as it relates to the work of the watchmen (Isa 62:6). ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the?Twin?Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the?United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from?< ns0:State w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Unknown" w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:insAuthor="Unknown">Illinois?and?Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in?Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in?America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their fath er being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in?Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in?Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim con trolled United Nations for use in?Africa . Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving?Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his?Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nati on's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in?Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interes t in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in?U.S..?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why w ill they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to?Darfur< /SPAN>?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting?America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in?America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The?United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for Pre sident at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the?United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for?America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstreamAmerica?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly gove rn the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? ? ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ? No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM ? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM Reply to All, ? I think that the subject matter at hand is relative to the debate or discussion.?? Although I would agree that we must not let it divide us in to the Two political camps of the day.? But we, I think would all agree that we are standing at the edge of the ?worm hole? or ?rip in the curtain of time?? or we are in ?the last days? if not in the last hours / minutes of the ?last day.?? A Christian minister who has died and passed form this life, related the story one time of how he was seeking God for understanding as to the fulfillment of bible prophecy and as he was seeking to understand the text he said he experience what he described as God speaking to him.? He prefaced his statement with the comment,? ?If I ever heard God speak to me in my life, I heard his voice this time.??? As the story goes, what he understood was that the people of God heard the prophets speak of what was coming as the Kingdom of God was being set up.? But he was told you will read of it in the Bible and then see it?s fulfillment on the front page of your newspaper.?? This you must understand coming from a man who was born at a time when Israel did not exist.? But read in his Bible that God would restore Israel to the land. ?And then one day reading his Bible he picked up the newspaper and ? Israel had became a nation?..? it?s 1948.?? Time went own and he studied the text some more and he noticed the scriptures spoke of Jerusalem and it being the Place where God was to dwell.? He picked up the Newspaper and the Jewish people had taken over the city, it was 1967.? I ?think you get my point. ? Dr. Tabor spoke of a? text, Interpreter of text and a fluid context.? We are part of the process, trying to see and understand the workings of God.?? Below is quote form Dr. Tabor. If you have not read the complete article you should. ? Taken from Dr James Tabor, website Patterns of the End: Textual Weaving from Qumran to Waco Paper given at the Princeton University Symposium on Messianism, March 1996. ? ?On Sunday morning, February 28, 1993, two years to the very day after the defeat of Saddam Hussein, as if prompted by some cosmic cue, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms carried out their ill-fated raid on Mt. Carmel, the communal center of the Branch Davidians a few miles outside Waco, Texas. Thus began a 51 day siege that ended in the incineration of the 74 inhabitants that had remained inside throughout this period. David Koresh spoke about being "in the fifth Seal" the very day of the BATF raid.. He was referring to his particular understanding of a sequence of events to unfold before the End, drawn primarily from the Seven-Sealed scroll of Revelation 6, but connected to a host of related texts throughout the Bible. What is operating here is a series of interpretive dynamics, well known to scholars of Jewish and Christian apocalypticism, that have played themselves out countless times in the past 2500 years. An understanding of these dynamics would have provided what appears to have been the best hope for a peaceful resolution of the Waco situation. Biblical apocalypticism involves the interplay of three basic elements: 1) The Sacred Text which is fixed and inviolate; 2) The inspired Interpreter who is involved in both transmitting and effecting the meaning of the Text; and 3) the fluid Context in which the interpreter/group finds itself. The Text functions as a kind of "map" of things to come, setting forth an "apocalyptic scenario" of end-time events. Koresh's "Text" was of course, the entire Bible, but particularly the books of Daniel, Revelation, the Psalms, Isaiah chapters 40-61, and the Minor Prophets, which he had woven into a prophetic complex that had deeply impressed his followers and convinced them that he was a prophet himself.? - Added emphasis mine. ?Although the Text itself is fixed and unchanging, mirroring in advance an almost fatalistic reflection of what "must happen," there are two variables in this scheme of things, allowing for a high degree of flexibility. First, the Interpreter is doing just that?interpreting?both the Text and the outside Context. And second, outside events are always changing and changeable. This was the key to effective negotiations during the entire 51 day standoff at Mt. Carmel . The government largely controlled the Context, or outside situation. Given this dynamic, this means that the FBI actually held within its control the ability to influence Koresh in his interpretations, and thus in his actions. Unfortunately, everything they did for 51 days, following the standard negotiation strategies and tactical quasi-military maneuvers developed in response to what they called "Hostage Rescue Barricade" situations, simply confirmed Koresh in his initial perception of the situation on February 28th?that that they were "in the fifth Seal," and that the entire situation might well have a tragic ending. In other words, the FBI played the perfect part of " Babylon " throughout, validating in every detail the interpretations of Scripture of both Koresh and his followers.? ? We should not let our political opinions divide us and we will all make our own decisions come November, but to ignore what is happening in our reality is to live wearing the ?rose colored glasses?.?? Also,? God builds um up?..? and God tries ?um down?? ?his purpose to perform.?? God does not tell us who to vote for, so we make our best choice.? ??Jeremiah Wright could be ?more prophetically correct then people want to think.? ?NO! NO! NO!, it?s not God Bless America , It?s ?@%$ ?&^*#?? !&*#$%^&. ?? I personally think judgment is coming to this country. ?In my mail box this morning, ?I found the ?following: ? ? Zephaniah 1:12?And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. ? God searches through the city? Jerusalem , Zion ?shining a light to reveal everyone to His judgment. No one escapes the judgment of God. Who is He looking for in particular? He looks for complacent men. ?Just as Hosea uses wine to illustrate the principle, Zephaniah also mentions wine though it is obscured in the translation: the words "settled in complacency" are literally "settled on their lees" like the dregs of wine (cf. the footnote on this verse, NKJV)! Again, the prophet speaks of a prosperous people who had deluded themselves into believing that their physical wealth meant that they were equally rich spiritually. As the years passed, their relationship with God had diminished into lip service and complacency. When God describes them saying things "in their heart," He means a reasoning process that happens internally. A person could not see it with his eyes, but the attitude cannot be hidden from the Judge walking the city with the lamp of truth. In today's parlance we call their problem "sins of omission." Like the Laodicean, the religious Jew of that day was not on the streets committing horrible crimes like murder or rape or armed robbery. These verses speak about the thousands and thousands of ordinary people who were stagnant and indifferent toward their relationship with God. Their problem was not what they did, but what they did not do. Nor does God accuse the Laodicean of the more apparent sins in Revelation 3. He is angry with him because of what he is not doing! He is not a true and faithful witness, and indeed cannot be, because of his poor judgment in prioritizing his life. In focusing on his selfish pursuits and self-centeredness, he leaves God almost completely out of his life. Still, he bears the name of God, attendsSabbath/ church services, and at least in a superficial way, worships God on the Sabbath/ Sunday. Yet the relationship is growing cold as he fails to seek Him earnestly as in courtship. The name Zephaniah (Tsephanya?h), i.e., he whom Jehovah hides or shelters.?? Is there a past, present, and future aspect to this book?? Yes, we agree there is a historical ?setting, but ?read the short book and replace Judah and Jerusalem with America and the religious privilege we have had and wasted. ??Zephaniah discusses the day of the Lord and describes the coming judgment upon Judah and the Nations. We have seen Judah ?s judgment(past) but what about the Nations(present / future). ? ? Zep 1:14? The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. Zep 1:15? That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, Zep 1:16? A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. Zep 1:17? And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Eze 30:3? For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. Joe 1:15? Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Joe 3:14? Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. Amo 5:18? Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. ??Amos says; Woe to you that desire the day of the Lord???? it is a day of darkness.?? Think about this?.. ? Amo 5:20? Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? ? Oba 1:15? For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen:( judgment in this verse is to whom?) ?as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. ? Zephaniah speaks of judgment on the nations, the land(world) and those that practice Idolatry. ?He then speaks of the way to escape some of the judgment is to REPENT. ?Then he proceeds to tell us??? ? Zep 3:8? Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zep 3:9? For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. ? God will sent the ?fishers and then the Hunters?? something has to cause Judah / Ephraim to return home.? Maybe this war that is now called a war on terror will one day be called a war with Islam and we will think of it in terms of the Arm of the Lord, or the Sword that God sends to the nations. He said in 3:6 ?he would cut off the nations?.? Does God have an Arm, a Sword?? ??Obadiah said the day of the Lord is near upon the heathen??.?? Maybe the day of the Lord that is so terrible and awesome,? so dark and distressful is for the Nations only?? Judah has had her time of Judgment? ? So what are we to do, keep searching, dialoguing and waiting for Hashem!? ??Don?t forget to Pray! ? Shalom, marvin ? ? ? ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:06 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE JIHAD CANDIDATE ? Hello all, ? I feel I need to offer a reminder here. ? While I certainly am not contesting the validity of, or the need for, these arguments (indeed I share much in the way of opinion and leaning in regards to what is said in the previous statements), I think it might be time for us to review Ross's introduction to the Dialogue list on the Roots of Faith website (www.rootsoffaith.org).? ? It may not be a popular position to take but I think it is possible to negate the purpose of the Dialogue if we are not careful. ? Please search your own hearts and tell me if I am out of line.? I'm not saying that we should not be discussing these issues nor am I contesting their relevance to Ephraim's duty.? I'm just wondering if the Dialogue is the place to discuss them. ? Shalom. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "Gary Arvidson" : -------------- Dialogue Friends, ? I am astounded that there has been no comment on the article by Rich Carroll which was forwarded by Clyde last evening to the list. ??The article is entitled: The Jihad Candidate (see below).? I thought somebody would say something about it.? Maybe you are all as overwhelmed with this perspective as am I.? In fact, today Im what you might call, Blown Away by it all.? ? For me, this article was the final straw ?only because I (with others) have been following this man for some time.? If this is all true, then can you begin to imagine the level of deception involved?? This would be Great Deception, not unlike the degree of deception suggested by the text of 2Th 2:9-12.? ? With this text, Im pointing to (#1) Magnitude, and not (#2) Genre [kind, sort, type].? Hence, the magnitude, along with the silence urges me to say something here to the list.? Ive discussed this situation with Clyde , and he backs what is being told.? We shouldnt drop this subject.? It is too critical.? If ignored, will it go away ?or bite us? ?Any comments?? ? Can you even begin to imagine such a thingas being proposed by Rich Carroll?? You can check him out on Google, and see the various reactions to what has been written.? Carrolls article shows what a completely tragic situation is developing before our eyes ?and all the while ?people are going along blindly ?and being swayed by the rhetoric ?and the emotion of the moment. ?? ? This is extremely serious business.? It has been reported that Obama has said: if things get ugly, Ill side with the Muslims (re: page 261 of 2nd book).? That is an open admission.? It is in your face.? How does that make you feel ?especially when you are called Whitey?? To a very large part, Whitey can be interpreted as Ephraim (though most Americans wouldnt know it and/or believe it ?if they heard it). ? Let me quote for you one short comment sent to me by a highly successful businessman from California .? He also read the article by Carroll, and responded to me with: ? Hi Gary !? Thanks for your many e-mails.? This one is really scary!? I have believed for a long time that Obama is a closet Muslim and a believer in their "causes".? I will pass this on as I ask the question. ?Where is the outrage about this man in the Congress of the United States ?? Is the President unaware of who this guy is?? Isn't there someone, somewhere, with the ability to expose this guy?? Have we become impudent?....? Al Carrozzo ? Like Al said: Where is the outrage?? Cant something be done?? Where are the Watchmen?? Who is delivering the message?? After all, we are told by the prophet: among the tribes of Israel have I made known that which shall surely be (Ho 5:9). ? What are we looking at?? Why is this phenomena happening?? What is coming down upon the land of Ephraim ?? Remember that Ephraim is mentioned by name fully 37 times in the book of Hosea, but Manasseh is not mentioned once.? Hosea contains a message for Ephraim in the last days.? ? Here is more that Hosea has said: I will chastise them, as their congregation has heard (Hos 7:12). ??Hosea goes on to say: The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it (Hos 9:7). ? Those are 3 separate statements issued by Hosea ?that the nation of Ephraim will be forewarned prior to the coming destruction.? There is plenty of other evidence that this is a message to the USA (see booklet:Ephraim = USA : 70 Evidences).? Just read through chapters 7,8,9 of Hosea ?and think, USA .? The parallels begin to jump out at you. ? Just consider the few texts of Hos 8:7-10 ?and think about Iraq , going it alone [leading], but with a lesser coalition, then the UN, then all nations against you, etc.? It is the same essence and feel of fulfillment.? On this basis, Hosea would be timely in many respects ?in the overall sense ?to the end-time descendants of Father Ephraim.? ? The nations around the world want Obama.? Every Muslim organization in the world supports Obama.? What do they know, that we dont know?? His middle name is Hussein.? Why must this name not be mentioned, when we can mention Rodham? ?There is so much more. ? Well one thing is for sure, and it is that you folks out there represent Ephraim.? And you know who you are ?whereas many millions of Americans do not.? That is why the Watchmen of Ephraim had better get going on getting out to the world, the message of Ephraims identity (and therefore, what is coming upon Ephraim).? ? How does all this relate to the coming election, and Obama, and The Jihad Candidate?? Thats another story.. ? Gary ? P.S. There is a work to be done.? Notice Isa 40:10, 62:11.? The full context for those texts is most interesting.? In Isa 62:10 there is the mention of a dig in relation to preparing the way.? Could this be on Mount Zion ?? The text of Isa 62:10-12 is especially curious at this time ?as it relates to the work of the watchmen (Isa 62:6). ? ________________________________ From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The Jihad candidate ? The Jihad Candidate--Every American should read this article!! The Jihad Candidate by Rich Carroll Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level. 'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction. Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet airliners smashing into the?Twin?Towers?in lowerManhattan?and remind yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight years. How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for President of the?United States? As long as it took them to place a Senator from?< ns0:State w:endInsDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:endInsAuthor="Unknown" w:insDate="2008-06-18T10:06:00Z" w:insAuthor="Unknown">Illinois?and?Minnesota? The same amount of time to create a large Muslim enclave in?Detroit? The time it took them to build over 2,000 mosques in?America? The same amount of time required to place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as 'chaplains'? Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their fath er being a 'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and violent government in?Kenya's history. Find a candidate with close ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in?Africa, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers. Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies. Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric and proclaim he will give $834 billion American taxpayer dollars to the Muslim con trolled United Nations for use in?Africa . Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because questioning him on any issue involving?Africa?or Islam would be seen as 'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his?Illinois?Senatorial and campaign staffs. Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nati on's reporters that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones' club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in?Africa? Since when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? ? Why haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim organization in the world? As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate has ZERO interes t in traditional American values and has the most liberal voting record in?U.S..?Senate history. Why has the American main stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein Obama? Why w ill they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44 countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to?Darfur< /SPAN>?as 'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non Muslims! There is enough strange, anti-American activity surrounding Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!? A formal plan for targeting?America?was devised three years after the Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991 memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in?America, Akram explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.' There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind of terror invading The?United States?in the form of Sharia law and finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are coming to America in record number s and building hate infidel mosques, buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the whole subject of Islam is white noise leaving uninformed Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions, even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the globe, brings-forth a volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat crowd.? Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an anti-capitalist run for Pre sident at the same time Islamic sharia finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the?United States? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from Muslim nations? Change for?America? What change? To become another 'nation of Islam'?? Is mainstreamAmerica?now so liberal that we can't think?? We, as a country, must wake up! 'It is impossible to rightly gove rn the world without God or the Bible'.? George Washington ?? ? ________________________________ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ? No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM ? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080622/1bfc2f3f/attachment.html From ally_kale at yahoo.com.au Mon Jun 23 16:01:02 2008 From: ally_kale at yahoo.com.au (Ally Kale) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?_Arab-Israel_Conflict_=E2=80=93_Forgotten_F?= =?utf-8?q?acts!_=E2=80=93_Intro1?= Message-ID: <490139.37749.qm@web44816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Folks ? Thought you may find this interesting. ? Shalom Moshe and Ally ? ? ? Arab-Israel Conflict ? Forgotten Facts! ? Intro1 for more information please visit: www.shamrak.com The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Mediterranean tribe, the Philistines ("Invaders" in Hebrew), that disappeared out over almost 3000 years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil. Romans, in order to conceal their shame and anger with rebellious regions, changed the references to Judea and Samaria by naming them Palestine. 1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in the 14th century B.C.E. Two thousand years before the rise of Islam. 2. Since 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for up to 1,000 years with a continuous Jewish presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 3. The only Arab dominion since the Arab invasion and conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. 4. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. 5. For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.?? 7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray facing Mecca (often with their backs toward Jerusalem).?? 8. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.) 9. In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described that land: A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human. 10. In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab. 11. A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker; The book estimated the total population of Jerusalem at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews. 12. As the Jews came and drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, Arabs followed. They came for jobs, for prosperity, for freedom. And, they came in large numbers. 13. In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Trans-Jordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of the Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and encouraged by British mandatory authority. 14. Prior to the Second World War Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will leave and come to Palestine." 15. Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks.?Over 80% of the original British Mandate land was given to Arabs without population transfer of Arabs from the land designated for Jews. 16. In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel. 17. In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors. 18. Some 850,000?Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. 19. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (where did they get this number?). Based on population census, estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time. 20. From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state.. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, 58 synagogues in Jerusalem were destroyed and the Jews and Christians were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. 21. Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1964 only, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat. The idea became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel re-captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the defensive 6-Day War of 1967, 22. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel. 23. Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy. 24. There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab nations. 25. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. 26. Pan-Arabism or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus, Spain, for example, must eventually be re-conquered. Ethnic Make Up of 'Palestinians'. Extracts from: "Bosnia - Motherland of "Palestinians" by Manfred R. Lehmann and "Palestinians 'Peoplehood' Based on a Big Lie" by Eli E. Hertz. Arab Palestinian nationality (which was officially forged in 1964) is an entity defined by its opposition to Zionism (the Jewish national liberation movement) and not by its national aspirations. Like a mantra, Arabs repeatedly claim that the Palestinians are a native people of Israel. The concept of a 'Stateless Palestinian people' is not based on fact. It is a fabrication! The following is a chronology of an ethnic make up of so-called Palestinians and their origin. During Ottoman Empire. Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers from the late 19th century, the area called Palestine was a God-forsaken backwash that was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. 1880-84 Turkish government settles Muslim Circassian refugees in the Golan to ward off Bedouin robbers. Other settlers in the area include Sudanese, Algerians, Kurds... In 1878, an Ottoman law granted lands in Palestine to the Moslem refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Carmel region, in the Galilee and in the Plain of Sharon and in Caesarea. The refugees were further attracted by l2-year tax exemptions and exemption from military service. The same colonization policy was also directed toward Moslem refugees from Russia - particularly from the Crimea and the Caucasus. They were Circassians, Cherkesians and Turkmenians - leading to their settling in Abu Gosh, near Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights. Refugees from Algeria and Egypt were also settled in Jaffa, Gaza, Jericho and the Golan. British Mandate: 1917-1947 1923 Having discovered the Golan lacks oil but that the Mosul area in northern Syria is rich in oil, the British cede the Golan to France in exchange for Mosul. At the same time the Trans-Jordan was ceded from Palestinian mandate as well and Egypt was given control of Sinai, British and France gain control of Suetz canal. (82% of Jewish land was sacrificed in the process!) In 1934 alone, 30,000 Syrian Arabs from the Hauran moved across the northern frontier into Mandate Palestine, attracted by work in and around the newly built British port and the construction of other infrastructure projects. They even dubbed Haifa Um el-Amal ('the city of work'). The Ottoman Turks' census (1882) recorded only 141,000 Muslims in the Palestinian. The British census in 1922 reported 650,000 Muslims. The Palestine Mandate. In July 1922, the League of Nations entrusted the Great Britain with The Palestine Mandate, recognizing "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine," Great Britain was called upon to facilitate the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine - Eretz Israel (Land of Israel). Three months later, in order to obtain full control over Suez canal, the Great Britain made a deal with Hashemite Kingdom, Egypt and France. The trans-Jordan (77% of the Mandate) was given to the king's brother in exchange for the Sinai, which was given to Egypt. Golan Heights (5% of the Palestinian Mandate) was ceded to the French controlled Syrian Mandate. This robbery was legalized immediately by, the puppet of the Great Britain and France - the League of Nations! http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Palestine_Mandate.html General Assembly resolution 181, of Nov. 29, 1947: It calls for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be controlled by a "special international regime" to protect its holy places. The Zionist movement seeking to establish a Jewish state accepted the partition, the Arabs rejected it. The resolution was not carried out: After Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, war broke out pitting the embryonic state against surrounding 7 Arab states. Israel gained more land than it would have had under the partition resolution. Neither Israel nor Jordan, which controlled the divided parts of Jerusalem after the war, accepted control of the holy city by an international body. Security Council resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967: It calls for "withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied" in the 1967 Six Day War and for "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." The resolution was not carried out because the Arab side did not recognize Israel, and Israel refused to withdraw. Why Left or Right? by Steven Shamrak One of the major distinctions between humans and animals is that we have analytical intellect. At the same time, we base most of our ideas and form opinions on our emotions, beliefs and assumptions, not on facts. Blinded by personal psycho-emotional history, people dismiss logic of the facts and create assumption to fit and support their own belief structure. Completely opposite ideologies: Lefties, Fascists and Islamic expansionists/terrorists found themselves united on one issue only ? Hate toward Jews. Quite often, I receive mail from them. Those messages are mainly just rhetoric based on preconceived ideas and psycho -emotional cocktail. I have never received letters that would contradict the historical facts about: Right of Jewish people to their homeland ? "Palestine"; The history of aggression and terror created by Arabs; The U.N. bias against Israel. But, I am often accused of being: Anti-Arab or Muslim. -? As a member of the Jewish tribe, with thousands of years being the victims in history of persecution and discrimination, I can assure you that my view are not Anti-something. I just express a pro-Jewish point of view based on facts not legends. At the same time, I do respect the freedom and rights of any religion and political point of view, even the fascist one, as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.. Too emotional. ??? -??? Arab leaders and clerics, often seen on TV, fumigating when they talk about Israel. Communists and Fascists are so passionate when they scream anti-Israel/anti-Semitic slogans. This is apparently acceptable. However, when a Jew logically presents facts in support of the Jewish state, suddenly, it is wrong to be emotional. Too Right wing. ?? -??? I do not consider myself Right or Left wing. I base my ideas and views on facts not emotions. There are too many people (including many Jews) who are very eager to promote, self-destructive, Left wing views. Actually, I can't understand why, in relation to Israel's right to exist there are Right or Left wind political points of view. Isn't it supposed to be point of view based on historical facts and the right of the Jewish people to live on the land of their ancestors? Dear Friends, Six years have passed since I started to send my letters out. I often asked one question: Why do you do it? I would like to answer it here: Unfortunately, most people, including many Jews, are driven by emotions. They form their opinions under the influence of the manipulative world media?and their own psychological predispositions, ignoring facts and logic.. Israel is loosing "Media War"! Neither Israeli governments nor Jewish leadership in other countries have been doing anything about PR side of the Arab-Israel conflict. I try to disseminate several points in my letters: ??????? Israel is a front-line defense in the war between Islamic expansionism and Western democracies. ??????? UN anti-Israel bias and Double-standard is applied to Israel by International community. ??????? Jewish people have the right to live in peace on the land of their ancestors. ??????? Israel is the only Jewish state. ??????? There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab ones. They have enough land to accommodate all Arabs. ??????? Negotiation will not stop terrorism. It only makes it stronger. Elie Wiesel said: "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference." As members of Western democratic society we all have an obligation to fight indifference and protect our way of life ? Democracy - Social justice and freedom of speech. The blind Israel bashing is not a part of a true democracy. It is ugly left over of the "Old World". NOTE: You either have requested or been introduced to my mail list by one of my readers. If you wish to unsubscribe from this distribution list, please reply and write the word "Unsubscribe" in the subject line. I hope you enjoyed reading my letters. Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080623/18845d2d/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 16:06:47 2008 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:06:47 -0400 Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Re:_[Dialogue]_Arab-Israel_Conf?= =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?lict_=96_Forgotten_Facts!_=96_Intro1?= In-Reply-To: <490139.37749.qm@web44816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <490139.37749.qm@web44816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Ally! Amber On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Ally Kale wrote: > > > > Folks > > Thought you may find this interesting. > > Shalom > Moshe and Ally > > > > > > > *Arab-Israel Conflict ? Forgotten Facts! ? Intro1* > > *for more information please visit: www.shamrak.com*** > > The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To > portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an > ancient Mediterranean tribe, the Philistines ("Invaders" in Hebrew), that > disappeared out over almost 3000 years ago.. The connection between this > tribe and modern day Arabs is nil. Romans, in order to conceal their shame > and anger with rebellious regions, changed the references to Judea and > Samaria by naming them Palestine. > > 1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in *the 14th century > *B.C.E. Two thousand years before the rise of Islam. > > 2. Since 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for *up to *1,000 > years with a continuous Jewish presence in the land for the past 3,300 > years.. > > 3. The only Arab dominion since the *Arab invasion and *conquest in 635 > C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. > > 4. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to > Jerusalem. > > 5. For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has > never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians > occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital and Arab > leaders did not come to visit. > > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. > Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. > > 7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray facing Mecca (often with their > backs toward Jerusalem). > > 8. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews > constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A > journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His > name was Karl Marx. Yes, *that* Karl Marx.) > > 9. In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described > that land: A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over > wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human. > > 10. In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures *showed that*, in the > entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and > non-Arab. > > 11. A travel guide to Palestine and Syria *was* published in 1906 by Karl > Baedeker; The book estimated the total population of *Jerusalem* at > 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were > Jews. > > 12. As the Jews came and drained the swamps and made the deserts *bloom,*Arabs followed. They came for jobs, for prosperity, for freedom. And, they > came in large numbers. > > 13. In 1922, with *what was widely acknowledged as* the illegal separation > of Trans-Jordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of the > Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and encouraged by > British *mandatory authority*. > > 14. Prior to the Second World War Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense > Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of > Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab > countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will > leave and come to Palestine." > > 15. Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanonuntil 1920? > Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders > of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these > nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny > their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as > countries. They were all under the control of the Turks. Over 80% of the original > British Mandate land was given to Arabs without population transfer of Arabs > from the land designated for Jews. > > 16. In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British > Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a > vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel. > > 17. In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab > leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of > being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors. > > 18. *Some 850,000* Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab > countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. > > 19. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be > around 630,000 (where did they get this number?). Based on population > census, estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They > were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time. > > 20. From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian > state. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, *58 > synagogues in **Jerusalem** were destroyed* and the Jews and Christians > were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and > Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all > faiths.** > > 21. Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in > 1964 only*, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat.* The idea > became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel *re-*captured Judea, > Samaria and Gaza *in the defensive 6-Day War of 1967*,* * > > 22. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians > are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or > integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely > absorbed into Israel. > > 23. Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the > rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle Eastlandmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with > misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy.** > > 24. There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, > including 22 Arab nations. > > 25. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of > Israel. > > 26. Pan-Arabism or *the doctrine* of *Muslim* Caliphate declares that all > land that used to belong to *Muslims* must be returned to them.* **Thus, * > *Spain**, for example, must eventually be re-conquered.* > > *Ethnic Make Up of 'Palestinians'.* > > *Extracts from: "**Bosnia** - Motherland of "Palestinians" by Manfred R. > Lehmann and *"*Palestinians 'Peoplehood' Based on a Big Lie" by** **Eli E. > Hertz.* > > *Arab Palestinian nationality **(which was officially forged in 1964)** is > an entity defined by its opposition to Zionism **(the Jewish national > liberation movement)** and not by its national aspirations.* > > Like a mantra, Arabs repeatedly claim that the Palestinians are a native > people of Israel. The concept of a 'Stateless Palestinian people' is not > based on fact. It is a fabrication! The following is a chronology of an > ethnic make up of so-called Palestinians and their origin. > > *During **Ottoman Empire**.* > > Until the Jews began returning to the Land of Israel in increasing numbers > from the late 19th century, the area called Palestine was a God-forsaken > backwash that was controlled by the Ottoman Empire. > > 1880-84 Turkish government settles Muslim Circassian refugees in the Golan > to ward off Bedouin robbers. Other settlers in the area include Sudanese, > Algerians, Kurds... > > In 1878, an Ottoman law granted lands in Palestine to the Moslem refugees > from Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Carmel region, in the Galilee and in > the Plain of Sharon and in Caesarea. The refugees were further attracted > by l2-year tax exemptions and exemption from military service. > > The same colonization policy was also directed toward Moslem refugees from > Russia - particularly from the Crimea and the Caucasus. They were > Circassians, Cherkesians and Turkmenians - leading to their settling in Abu > Gosh, near Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights. Refugees from Algeria and > Egypt were also settled in Jaffa, Gaza, Jericho and the Golan. > > *British Mandate: 1917-1947 * > > 1923 Having discovered the Golan lacks oil but that the Mosul area in > northern Syria is rich in oil, the British cede the Golan to France in > exchange for Mosul. At the same time the Trans-Jordan was ceded from > Palestinian mandate as well and Egypt was given control of Sinai, British > and France gain control of Suetz canal. (82% of Jewish land was sacrificed > in the process!) > > In 1934 alone, 30,000 Syrian Arabs from the Hauran moved across the > northern frontier into Mandate Palestine, attracted by work in and around > the newly built British port and the construction of other infrastructure > projects. They even dubbed Haifa *Um el-Amal *('the city of work'). > > The Ottoman Turks' census (1882) recorded only 141,000 Muslims in the > Palestinian. The British census in 1922 reported 650,000 Muslims. > > *The **Palestine** Mandate.* In July 1922, the League of Nations entrusted > the Great Britain with The Palestine Mandate, recognizing* "the historical > connection of the Jewish people with Palestine,"* Great Britain was called > upon to facilitate the establishment of a Jewish national home in *Palestine > - Eretz Israel* (Land of Israel). Three months later, in order to obtain > full control over Suez canal, the Great Britain made a deal with Hashemite > Kingdom, Egypt and France. The trans-Jordan (77% of the Mandate) was given > to the king's brother in exchange for the Sinai, which was given to Egypt. > Golan Heights (5% of the Palestinian Mandate) was ceded to the French > controlled Syrian Mandate. This robbery was legalized immediately by, the > puppet of the Great Britain and France - the League of Nations! * > http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Palestine_Mandate.html > * > > *General Assembly resolution 181*, of Nov. 29, 1947: It calls for the > partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be > controlled by a "special international regime" to protect its holy places. The > Zionist movement seeking to establish a Jewish state accepted the partition, > the Arabs rejected it. The resolution was not carried out: After Israel > declared its independence on May 14, 1948, war broke out pitting the > embryonic state against surrounding 7 Arab states. Israel gained more land > than it would have had under the partition resolution. Neither Israel nor > Jordan, which controlled the divided parts of Jerusalem after the war, > accepted control of the holy city by an international body. > > *Security Council resolution 242*, Nov. 22, 1967: It calls for "withdrawal > of Israel armed forces from territories occupied" in the 1967 Six Day War > and for "respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial > integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their > right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from > threats or acts of force." The resolution was not carried out because the > Arab side did not recognize Israel, and Israel refused to withdraw. > >