From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 00:08:36 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 05:08:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
In-Reply-To: <1AC16BF38CED4D51A629E89F6668FE8B@JessicaPC>
References: <c34.2ffb37da.354a7ae1@aol.com>
	<1AC16BF38CED4D51A629E89F6668FE8B@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <050120080508.3720.4819505000088A1100000E8822218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Well put Jessica.

Hanoch I think I would propose that we are looking at the same puzzle from two different perspectives.  For me, as a relatively Torah ignorant Gentile, I first had to understand that the Messiah did not need to be G-d in order to be Messiah.  I word it that way purposely because that is how we were taught, Messiah MUST be G-d, otherwise how could he remove our sins.  I know that seems odd to you but that is where I was (and surely not alone).

I use a capital M because I mean Melech HaMoshiach which is in itself a very elusive concept in the Jewish teachings I have studied.

So that leaves a pretty big question hanging out there.  What is Messiah if he is not G-d.  From where I stand, without that question being answered, I ask why can't Yeshua be Messiah?  It's fairly clear to me that the NT strongly implies, if not outright states, that he is.  In my studies (which are admittedly biased toward the Christian perspective, something I am trying to rectify) I have found no-one else that fits the description that I have for all of mankind.  I am one of those that still holds great respect for the NT (just a fact not meant to offend or be argumentative).  And in fact I find it very fruitful to use the NT as the connection point for Christians to understand Torah which is what I have been doing on Sunday mornings with a small group of folks I used to attend church with.  I am learning that there are limitations and incongruemcies in it use though.

On the other side you ask why does Yeshua need to be Messiah as opposed to another of the great Rabbi's of the ages.

So from a Gentile perspective (not understanding the importance of Torah) it is not a question of how Jesus' death united the tribes.  In my Gentile understanding (and I use past tense), uniting the tribes wasn't really important, it was how did his death save my soul that was important.  By the definition of Messiah that I was taught it makes perfect sense that only Jesus death could possibly accomplish that.  Why, well because I was taught that he was G-d's only son.  Of course I now understand much differently and the question at hand now does become important because I know HaShem is my only salvation.  To HaShem the unification of the tribes is paramount and through that act, salvation is made possible for all mankind.

So maybe we should re-phrase the question to ask how does Messiah's death unite the tribes into one?  Because if we find that Messiah does not need to die to unite the tribes then it seems to me ya gotta ask whether Jesus's death was really part of the plan.  

Again I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone, it was not intended.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


I'm struggling with this question also Hanoch. Perhaps it was the fact that this particular Rabbi (Pharisee of the House of Hillel) Yeshua went to the lost sheep in the places among the gentiles instead of keeping the teachings strictly among the Jews. If not for the gentiles, you and I and all the other lost sheep who are hearing the voice of HaShem today would not be having these discussions. It may be that the 'pagan-isation' of his life and teachings have actually 'saved', 'preserved'  those teachings down through the ages. As incomprehensibly gruesome as the deaths of those wonderful sages were, their teachings remained within the boundaries of Judaism and are only now flowing freely (via internet mostly) to all peoples throughout the world. 
Judaism was for the Jews and those who converted to Judaism. I don't believe HaShem ever intended for all Yacov's children to convert to Judaism. 
Yeshua's mission was, in my humble opinion, to begin the process of 'finding' the lost ones. His followers were the ones who spread his teachings far and wide. Unfortunately in the process, the wolves came in amongst the flock. 
Hanoch, for me, it isn't so important if he is THE ANOINTED ONE or if he was A MESHIACH for his generation. I believe it is said that the death of a Tzaddik atones for the sins of his generation. 
What is important to me is that because of his life and great sacrifice in standing up to the Roman scum, I am here talking with you and looking forward to being reunited with the WHOLE HOUSEHOLD of Yacov. In that sense it could be said that it's "mission accomplished".
I am so glad and thankful for this opportunity to hear so many other points of view. It is causing me to further challenge my 'hidden' beliefs and continue to seek answers. 
Love the challenge,
Jessica
----- Original Message ----- 
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?


Hi Jessica,

    Thanks for sharing your take on it; but I've got to tell you, I'm still struggling with understanding how Jesus' death was so different - and why/how that 'difference' makes such an impact.  There were countless thousands of Jews (including many great Rabbis) who were horribly tortured and martyred by the Roman hordes.

    Some of the greatest Sages of the first and second centuries, (Rabi Akiva, Rabi Ishmael the Kohen HaGadol, Rabbi Chananya ben Tradyon, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, among scores of others, were horrifically tortured to death by the Roman scum.  Although their teachings are 'alive' wherever Torah is being learned - their deaths are not considered to have the 'impact' you describe, vis a vis, Jesus.

    We have nothing that Jesus himself wrote, and only various versions of things he was supposed to have said.  All of the sayings which, fits perfectly within the framework of 1st Century Jewish thought in the Land of Israel.  Jesus' teachings were very similar to some other Rabbis/teachers of that time (although not all - there was a wide variety of views).  That's what I'm struggling to understand, not to argue against - but to understand.  I'm not looking to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything - just trying to understand why so many feel the way you do....that Jesus' life and death made/make a HUGE difference in the world.

    And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)
    
        Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...








Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/ba591c2e/attachment.html 

From pmitchel at netvision.net.il  Thu May  1 00:16:00 2008
From: pmitchel at netvision.net.il (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 08:16:00 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
In-Reply-To: <0D80F238B98C43D29F4E03AFFDCBF733@JessicaPC>
References: <bcb.28295ef1.354956c8@aol.com>
	<299C94D9780E4ACF9C23FA7038720BDB@JessicaPC>
	<014601c8aa85$a719fe50$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0E0A62B8612C4CC78A1CB652ED6F6DA4@JessicaPC>
	<004b01c8aab9$9fc57a10$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0D80F238B98C43D29F4E03AFFDCBF733@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>

Me too!  But can y'all deal with the tarantula I have loose in the house????
Haven't had time to deal with him yet!  Except I do go through the back part
of my home with my weapon of choice for mass destruction,  a string mop!
Any one got any suggestions on how to entice a tarantula to death???

 

Last night I heard a former Muslim now Torah observant Believer speak.  Wow!
My head was swimming most of the night!  When I can I'll write it up for
ya'll.  AMAZING!

Patty

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Patty that would be marvellous. We'll do exactly that when HaShem brings us
all together. Without a doubt. I sure hope your plumbing can cope.

 

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty <mailto:pmitchel at netvision.net.il>  Mitchell 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Jessica!

 

That sounds wonderful, I haven't been to Australia yet.  BUT!  THE place to
be at Succot is right here in Jerusalem so why don't you just come on over
here and celebrate with us at home?!?!?!  :-)

 

Patty

 

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:20 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Patty better still - how about you guys come on over here to Aussie
land. April is gorgeous as is October. It's warmer up north where my teacher
friend lives, but is Spring down south here and just gloriously beautiful.
Rather like Israel I imagine.

Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty <mailto:pmitchel at netvision.net.il>  Mitchell 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Jessica,

 

Bad news!  NC is also prone to hurricanes!  As is SC where I spent many
years including the year that Hugo ravaged not only the coastal area but
also Columbia where I was one hundred miles inland and then I went up
through Charlotte NC!  The safest place n in the center of HIS eye so come
on over-oops-go on over there!

 

Haven't forgotten those contacts for you back to you soon on them!

 

Patty

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Not a bad idea Hanoch - I hear there are some pretty mean hurricanes in
Louisiana around the time of Sukkot. I will have to find a map to see where
North Carolina is.

Nighty night to y'all who are off to beddie byes - Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:29 PM

Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

HEY!!  This is starting to sound like a sleep over party!  I can just
picture it, Pat will be setting everyone's hair, Betty will be singing
Karaoke into the mirrors...Jessica will be harmonizing in the background,
cause she's got the coolest accent (next to my New York one, that is..),
Patty will be running around with her tambourine....man, this is getting too
weird!!

 

    John, Glenn and Steve will be playing checkers on the floor, Ross will
be lecturing to someone....Kim and Linda will be there, having a beer, Helen
will be teaching me a Scots accent, etc....Glenn and Dave will be
jamming.....

 

And I thought I was in a group of revolutionaries!!  Zealots even!!  Am I in
the Twilight Zone, or what?  

 

   Maybe just overtired...hey Jessica - forget Sukkot in Louisiana - how
'bout hooking up with us in North Carolina in April??  Time for you to go
walkabout, don't you think?  Time to argue this tomorrow....let me not
repeat the Monty Python 'living in a shoe box in the middle of the road'
thing, where I get up an hour before I go to sleep!  

 

    Just remember, 'NOBODY counts on the Spanish Inquisition, as they
say...'

 

    Laila tov & sweet dreams, 

     

                  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 

            Now we ALL know Rav Kahane was right!

 


  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/2ab584c0/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Thu May  1 00:17:43 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:17:43 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
References: <c34.2ffb37da.354a7ae1@aol.com><1AC16BF38CED4D51A629E89F6668FE8B@JessicaPC>
	<050120080508.3720.4819505000088A1100000E8822218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <05b301c8ab4a$afbd7da0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

I too am still wandering on this one...but  I have one comment re: What is the definition of "Messiah"???

in Judaism I understand that Messiah means something different than in Christianity which makes Messiah into a spiritual one of salvation ....whereas as I understand it...please Hanoch correct me if I heard wrongly...Messiah is a more or less a statesman ....NOT a spiritual one. Is that correct?   Loy 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 12:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?


  Well put Jessica.

  Hanoch I think I would propose that we are looking at the same puzzle from two different perspectives.  For me, as a relatively Torah ignorant Gentile, I first had to understand that the Messiah did not need to be G-d in order to be Messiah.  I word it that way purposely because that is how we were taught, Messiah MUST be G-d, otherwise how could he remove our sins.  I know that seems odd to you but that is where I was (and surely not alone).

  I use a capital M because I mean Melech HaMoshiach which is in itself a very elusive concept in the Jewish teachings I have studied.

  So that leaves a pretty big question hanging out there.  What is Messiah if he is not G-d.  From where I stand, without that question being answered, I ask why can't Yeshua be Messiah?  It's fairly clear to me that the NT strongly implies, if not outright states, that he is.  In my studies (which are admittedly biased toward the Christian perspective, something I am trying to rectify) I have found no-one else that fits the description that I have for all of mankind.  I am one of those that still holds great respect for the NT (just a fact not meant to offend or be argumentative).  And in fact I find it very fruitful to use the NT as the connection point for Christians to understand Torah which is what I have been doing on Sunday mornings with a small group of folks I used to attend church with.  I am learning that there are limitations and incongruemcies in it use though.

  On the other side you ask why does Yeshua need to be Messiah as opposed to another of the great Rabbi's of the ages.

  So from a Gentile perspective (not understanding the importance of Torah) it is not a question of how Jesus' death united the tribes.  In my Gentile understanding (and I use past tense), uniting the tribes wasn't really important, it was how did his death save my soul that was important.  By the definition of Messiah that I was taught it makes perfect sense that only Jesus death could possibly accomplish that.  Why, well because I was taught that he was G-d's only son.  Of course I now understand much differently and the question at hand now does become important because I know HaShem is my only salvation.  To HaShem the unification of the tribes is paramount and through that act, salvation is made possible for all mankind.

  So maybe we should re-phrase the question to ask how does Messiah's death unite the tribes into one?  Because if we find that Messiah does not need to die to unite the tribes then it seems to me ya gotta ask whether Jesus's death was really part of the plan.  

  Again I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone, it was not intended.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


    I'm struggling with this question also Hanoch. Perhaps it was the fact that this particular Rabbi (Pharisee of the House of Hillel) Yeshua went to the lost sheep in the places among the gentiles instead of keeping the teachings strictly among the Jews. If not for the gentiles, you and I and all the other lost sheep who are hearing the voice of HaShem today would not be having these discussions. It may be that the 'pagan-isation' of his life and teachings have actually 'saved', 'preserved'  those teachings down through the ages. As incomprehensibly gruesome as the deaths of those wonderful sages were, their teachings remained within the boundaries of Judaism and are only now flowing freely (via internet mostly) to all peoples throughout the world. 
    Judaism was for the Jews and those who converted to Judaism. I don't believe HaShem ever intended for all Yacov's children to convert to Judaism. 
    Yeshua's mission was, in my humble opinion, to begin the process of 'finding' the lost ones. His followers were the ones who spread his teachings far and wide. Unfortunately in the process, the wolves came in amongst the flock. 
    Hanoch, for me, it isn't so important if he is THE ANOINTED ONE or if he was A MESHIACH for his generation. I believe it is said that the death of a Tzaddik atones for the sins of his generation. 
    What is important to me is that because of his life and great sacrifice in standing up to the Roman scum, I am here talking with you and looking forward to being reunited with the WHOLE HOUSEHOLD of Yacov. In that sense it could be said that it's "mission accomplished".
    I am so glad and thankful for this opportunity to hear so many other points of view. It is causing me to further challenge my 'hidden' beliefs and continue to seek answers. 
    Love the challenge,
    Jessica
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:16 AM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?


      Hi Jessica,

          Thanks for sharing your take on it; but I've got to tell you, I'm still struggling with understanding how Jesus' death was so different - and why/how that 'difference' makes such an impact.  There were countless thousands of Jews (including many great Rabbis) who were horribly tortured and martyred by the Roman hordes.

          Some of the greatest Sages of the first and second centuries, (Rabi Akiva, Rabi Ishmael the Kohen HaGadol, Rabbi Chananya ben Tradyon, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, among scores of others, were horrifically tortured to death by the Roman scum.  Although their teachings are 'alive' wherever Torah is being learned - their deaths are not considered to have the 'impact' you describe, vis a vis, Jesus.

          We have nothing that Jesus himself wrote, and only various versions of things he was supposed to have said.  All of the sayings which, fits perfectly within the framework of 1st Century Jewish thought in the Land of Israel.  Jesus' teachings were very similar to some other Rabbis/teachers of that time (although not all - there was a wide variety of views).  That's what I'm struggling to understand, not to argue against - but to understand.  I'm not looking to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything - just trying to understand why so many feel the way you do....that Jesus' life and death made/make a HUGE difference in the world.

          And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)
          
              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
      Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/dcb41049/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 00:18:03 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 05:18:03 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Kedoshim to ponder
In-Reply-To: <200805010424.m414OWdC019382@mail106c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <050120080518.12310.48195288000869F00000301622218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Man I really like that Steve.  Our society has all but trashed that concept.  In the world it is far more important that we care about ourselves first then go find some other people that care about themselves as well.  

Makes for a lot of really lonely, self-righteous people.

I like this Mitzvah much better.  Kinda puts this whole thing we're doing in perspective.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>: -------------- 

Gang, 
Am forwarding a sample of Shlomo Ressler's weekly short summaries / pertient points of the parshah of the week. It speaks for itself, has points to ponder.
Steve

From: Shlomo Ressler <dvarman at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Dvar for Kedoshim (Leviticus 19:1-20:27)
To: WEEKLYDVAR at SHAMASH.ORG

Dear Reader,

Welcome to the short, practical Lelamed Weekly Dvar. Enjoy...
_______________________________________________

Buried deep in Parshat Kedoshim is the Jewish dictum that one should "love your fellow as yourself" (19:18). R' Akiva said in the Gemara (Tractate) that this is the fundamental rule of the Torah. Many commentators explain what's so significant about this commandment, ranging from its focus on selflessness, love, consideration, respect, and even of loving yourself. Hillel, however, changed the wording a bit, saying that "what is hateful to you, do not do onto others" (Shabbat 31a). By Hillel's rephrasing and focusing on hate, all the wonderful lessons our commentators derived seem to be negated! Why would Hillel do this?

The truth is that if we thought about the real essence of this Mitzvah (commandment), we'd realize that Hillel didn't change anything, and in fact helped us focus on the most important aspect of it. The commandment of loving another as you love yourself is one of the rare instances of commandments that no one can EVER do alone. The point isn't merely to treat others with love, respect and consideration, but to HAVE others around you so that you may love, respect and consider them. Hillel was saying that Judaism lives, thrives and depends on having a community of others around us, so that we can hone our relationship with each other (thereby improving our relationship with G-d himself). The message couldn't be more pertinent to us today: Treat others around us with the love, respect and consideration they deserve, but make sure you have a community around us that deserves that very consideration.
______________________________________________
Quotation of the week:
"A true friend is one soul in two bodies." - Aristotle 




The WEEKLYDVAR mailing list is hosted by Shamash: The Jewish Network, a service of Hebrew College, which offers online courses and an online MA in Jewish Studies. 

For other options go to: http://listserv.SHAMASH.ORG/ 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/a57041b3/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 00:24:29 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 05:24:29 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
In-Reply-To: <01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>
References: <bcb.28295ef1.354956c8@aol.com>
	<299C94D9780E4ACF9C23FA7038720BDB@JessicaPC>
	<014601c8aa85$a719fe50$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0E0A62B8612C4CC78A1CB652ED6F6DA4@JessicaPC>
	<004b01c8aab9$9fc57a10$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0D80F238B98C43D29F4E03AFFDCBF733@JessicaPC>
	<01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <050120080524.16927.48195407000D68430000421F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I don't know Patty, I've heard that there are some birds that consider tarantula's a delicacy.  Maybe one of those sticky mouse sheets would work?  Of course you would then be faced with disposing of a stuck live tarantula.

I can't wait to hear what the speaker had to say.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Patty Mitchell <pmitchel at netvision.net.il>: -------------- 


Me too!  But can y?all deal with the tarantula I have loose in the house???? Haven?t had time to deal with him yet!  Except I do go through the back part of my home with my weapon of choice for mass destruction,  a string mop!  Any one got any suggestions on how to entice a tarantula to death???
 
Last night I heard a former Muslim now Torah observant Believer speak.  Wow!  My head was swimming most of the night!  When I can I?ll write it up for ya?ll.  AMAZING!
Patty



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
Patty that would be marvellous. We'll do exactly that when HaShem brings us all together. Without a doubt. I sure hope your plumbing can cope.
 
Jessica
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty Mitchell 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
Hey Jessica!
 
That sounds wonderful, I haven?t been to Australia yet.  BUT!  THE place to be at Succot is right here in Jerusalem so why don?t you just come on over here and celebrate with us at home?!?!?!  J
 
Patty
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:20 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
Hey Patty better still - how about you guys come on over here to Aussie land. April is gorgeous as is October. It's warmer up north where my teacher friend lives, but is Spring down south here and just gloriously beautiful. Rather like Israel I imagine.
Jessica
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Patty Mitchell 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
Hey Jessica,
 
Bad news!  NC is also prone to hurricanes!  As is SC where I spent many years including the year that Hugo ravaged not only the coastal area but also Columbia where I was one hundred miles inland and then I went up through Charlotte NC!  The safest place n in the center of HIS eye so come on over?oops?go on over there!
 
Haven?t forgotten those contacts for you back to you soon on them!
 
Patty
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
Not a bad idea Hanoch - I hear there are some pretty mean hurricanes in Louisiana around the time of Sukkot. I will have to find a map to see where North Carolina is.
Nighty night to y'all who are off to beddie byes - Jessica
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
 
HEY!!  This is starting to sound like a sleep over party!  I can just picture it, Pat will be setting everyone's hair, Betty will be singing Karaoke into the mirrors...Jessica will be harmonizing in the background, cause she's got the coolest accent (next to my New York one, that is..), Patty will be running around with her tambourine....man, this is getting too weird!!
 
    John, Glenn and Steve will be playing checkers on the floor, Ross will be lecturing to someone....Kim and Linda will be there, having a beer, Helen will be teaching me a Scots accent, etc....Glenn and Dave will be jamming.....
 
And I thought I was in a group of revolutionaries!!  Zealots even!!  Am I in the Twilight Zone, or what?  
 
   Maybe just overtired...hey Jessica - forget Sukkot in Louisiana - how 'bout hooking up with us in North Carolina in April??  Time for you to go walkabout, don't you think?  Time to argue this tomorrow....let me not repeat the Monty Python 'living in a shoe box in the middle of the road' thing, where I get up an hour before I go to sleep!  
 
    Just remember, 'NOBODY counts on the Spanish Inquisition, as they say...'
 
    Laila tov & sweet dreams, 
     
                  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 
            Now we ALL know Rav Kahane was right!
 



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.



_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/607a2b4c/attachment.html 

From pmitchel at netvision.net.il  Thu May  1 01:07:38 2008
From: pmitchel at netvision.net.il (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:07:38 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
	<3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl>
	<8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC>
	<026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
	<E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <01db01c8ab51$a877bfe0$6402a8c0@desktop>

Loy,

 

There's great blessing in taking care of your parents.  The Torah, the top
ten, says if you do this you receive a blessing Ex 20:12 " Honor your father
and mother that your days may be prolonged in the land which Yah your God
gives you."  I took care of both of mine for many years and had the
privilege of being with them at the moment they stepped into eternity.  The
only thing I would change about those years-I would have done more than I
did.  I didn't realize until after that it actually carried this blessing.
Who knows, maybe this is why I get the incredible blessing of being in
Jerusalem now.

 

I'll be praying for your strength, wisdom and JOY in your current journey
Loy!

 

Shalom!

 

Patty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at
102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I
relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever
way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and
said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter,
she would one day be bathing me". 

It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to
return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies
and young children, before we can off into the world.

Blessings to your Mum.

And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is
ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all
that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these
wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

Blessings and Shalom,

Jessica

 

I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care
of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't
have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the
........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time
schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

 

  love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/dded7a90/attachment.html 

From pmitchel at netvision.net.il  Thu May  1 01:18:43 2008
From: pmitchel at netvision.net.il (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:18:43 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
In-Reply-To: <050120080524.16927.48195407000D68430000421F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <bcb.28295ef1.354956c8@aol.com>
	<299C94D9780E4ACF9C23FA7038720BDB@JessicaPC>
	<014601c8aa85$a719fe50$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0E0A62B8612C4CC78A1CB652ED6F6DA4@JessicaPC>
	<004b01c8aab9$9fc57a10$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0D80F238B98C43D29F4E03AFFDCBF733@JessicaPC>
	<01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<050120080524.16927.48195407000D68430000421F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <020001c8ab53$34e29940$6402a8c0@desktop>

Thanks, John!  That's the first laugh I've had over the tarantula situation!

 

What are you doling up this late!  Don't you people ever sleep?

 

Patty

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:24 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

I don't know Patty, I've heard that there are some birds that consider
tarantula's a delicacy.  Maybe one of those sticky mouse sheets would work?
Of course you would then be faced with disposing of a stuck live tarantula.

 

I can't wait to hear what the speaker had to say.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Patty Mitchell
<pmitchel at netvision.net.il>: -------------- 

Me too!  But can yall deal with the tarantula I have loose in the house????
Havent had time to deal with him yet!  Except I do go through the back part
of my home with my weapon of choice for mass destruction,  a string mop!
Any one got any suggestions on how to entice a tarantula to death???

 

Last night I heard a former Muslim now Torah observant Believer speak.  Wow!
My head was swimming most of the night!  When I can Ill write it up for
yall.  AMAZING!

Patty


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Patty that would be marvellous. We'll do exactly that when HaShem brings us
all together. Without a doubt. I sure hope your plumbing can cope.

 

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty <mailto:pmitchel at netvision.net.il>  Mitchell 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:29 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Jessica!

 

That sounds wonderful, I havent been to Australia yet.  BUT!  THE place to
be at Succot is right here in Jerusalem so why dont you just come on over
here and celebrate with us at home?!?!?!  :-)

 

Patty

 

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:20 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Patty better still - how about you guys come on over here to Aussie
land. April is gorgeous as is October. It's warmer up north where my teacher
friend lives, but is Spring down south here and just gloriously beautiful.
Rather like Israel I imagine.

Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty <mailto:pmitchel at netvision.net.il>  Mitchell 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Hey Jessica,

 

Bad news!  NC is also prone to hurricanes!  As is SC where I spent many
years including the year that Hugo ravaged not only the coastal area but
also Columbia where I was one hundred miles inland and then I went up
through Charlotte NC!  The safest place n in the center of HIS eye so come
on overoopsgo on over there!

 

Havent forgotten those contacts for you back to you soon on them!

 

Patty

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

Not a bad idea Hanoch - I hear there are some pretty mean hurricanes in
Louisiana around the time of Sukkot. I will have to find a map to see where
North Carolina is.

Nighty night to y'all who are off to beddie byes - Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:29 PM

Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???

 

HEY!!  This is starting to sound like a sleep over party!  I can just
picture it, Pat will be setting everyone's hair, Betty will be singing
Karaoke into the mirrors...Jessica will be harmonizing in the background,
cause she's got the coolest accent (next to my New York one, that is..),
Patty will be running around with her tambourine....man, this is getting too
weird!!

 

    John, Glenn and Steve will be playing checkers on the floor, Ross will
be lecturing to someone....Kim and Linda will be there, having a beer, Helen
will be teaching me a Scots accent, etc....Glenn and Dave will be
jamming.....

 

And I thought I was in a group of revolutionaries!!  Zealots even!!  Am I in
the Twilight Zone, or what?  

 

   Maybe just overtired...hey Jessica - forget Sukkot in Louisiana - how
'bout hooking up with us in North Carolina in April??  Time for you to go
walkabout, don't you think?  Time to argue this tomorrow....let me not
repeat the Monty Python 'living in a shoe box in the middle of the road'
thing, where I get up an hour before I go to sleep!  

 

    Just remember, 'NOBODY counts on the Spanish Inquisition, as they
say...'

 

    Laila tov & sweet dreams, 

     

                  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 

            Now we ALL know Rav Kahane was right!

 


  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/6b4983d8/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Thu May  1 01:20:30 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 01:20:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] something is right
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca>
	<1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>

Yes Kim I was at the Two House conference in Kansas City 2 years in a 
row, or 2 times. I was a member there. I got some stern reminders from 
the leader, for the way I admonished him. He once called me a snake that 
he had to light a grass fire to hunt me out. The reason I was so rough 
on him was because it seemed to me he as a leader was  the opposite of 
what i find in this group. I think I may be stepping out of proportion 
by mentioning this, coming very close if not altogether to lashon harah. 
(Any one feel free to admonish me for this, if that is what I am doing.) 
Just prior to this happening, I had a dream that was totally not myself 
in it . As a Mennonite I had taken a very strong non-resistant stand. In 
this dream however I was a soldier, it was a time of war. The group or 
side of the war I was in was up in a balcony like upstairs, It was 
lighted up and cozy up there, with a staircase on each side, we were 
looking over the balcony into what was not the inside of a building at 
all, it was as if it was dusk, and we could not see our enemy very 
clear, but there were a lot of people, we up on the balcony were the 
minority. All at once I saw a leading figure, using some not very good 
words against us, with a long sword in his hand, and very boldly started 
to come up the stairs. So I took a long lance some 20 feet long ancient 
spear I had no experience with anything in defense at war, and without 
fear of anything approached him on the top of the stairs, and he turned 
around and left.  It was after that dream, I came into some very earnest 
conversation with that leader through e-mails. He spread it all over the 
group, with some 300 people involved. Making me look like a real culprit 
. That is when I left Christianity.

 I have written 2 books later. (Now please understand these books were 
not written in defiance of what I just wrote) of those two, One is 
titled  "Israel, God's Covenant People". This was the title of a 
Christian tract one of my own daughters sent me, hoping this negative 
Jewish history would help me come back to Christianity.  The other one 
is really still in the making, by the title: 

*"Does Christianity Agree with the Torah (the Old Testament)?*

*Reflections on the Current State of the Dominant World Religion"*

and happens to be a dialogue form between a local Christian Pastor and 
myself. We are still at it now already for about a year and a half. In 
this dialogue we have tried to treat each other as friend's, with no one 
getting agitated even though we totally disagree. The Pastor is 
convinced that he will persuade me back to Christianity. I am asking him 
around 75 questions which he has mostly not been able to answer,  but 
seems to try to evade, although he agreed right from the start that 
since I did not have confidence in the New Testament any more, that he 
being a Seminar trained Pastor, claiming to have even studied the 
Hebrew, and so he claimed he could prove the messiah being Jesus out of 
the old Testament alone.

I would be interested to know what you people would say in answer to 
these questions. And please understand, I am not claiming to be right. I 
want to be able to stand free of any evil charge before my maker in 
Judgment day. This writing contains about some 70 pages by now.

Concerning printing out some of these dialogue articles picked out from 
you people, 40 pages by now,  I do this to share with my group who all 
do not have Internet. I use a lot of paper as a rule, printing is one 
thing I likely indulge in a bit.and I think I was only introduced to 
your dialogue around a week ago. I print out my own books when I have 
the time for it. I am overwhelmingly busy. But if anyone would be 
interested to help me answer those questions, I could e-mail you my 
dialogue with the Pastor.

 Since I am working as a welder in day time, I went to bed early only to 
be wakened by a telephone call for my wife. But than I decided or felt 
something stirring inside of me, prompting me to go to my computer and 
get at these e-mails, only to spend the time typing this, since I am a 2 
finger typer it takes me a while. Tomorrow we want to go to a funeral of 
one of my Aunt's, and I don't want to fall asleep in church, so I better 
retire.

Shalom to all,

Cornelius



kim alvarado wrote:
> Cornie,
>
> Not sure if we've met or not.  Were you at the conference? 
>
> I have been going through some difficult times, but HaShem is with me 
> guiding my steps.  Some pretty amazing things have been happening.  
> Baruch HaShem!  He is in control. 
>
> It sounds like you have been wading through some tough times too.  So 
> glad that you found this group. As I believe I said in a previous 
> email I have never felt as loved and accepted as I do in this group.  
> The thing is that you can't figure what we are all into, because we 
> are all different.  We have different beliefs.  What we do all seem to 
> have in common is a desire for Truth.  We are on a wonderful journey, 
> led by HaShem. 
>
> May Hashem Bless you and guide your footsteps.
>
> Kim
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca 
> <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Thank you Kim, I don't know if we ever met, it sounds like you
>     have been going through some deep water, not just ankle deep, or
>     what? I have been very busy checking all the e-mails before I ever
>     as much as knew about this dialoging group of such  friendly
>     people.  I too have been through some valley's in my like, so far
>     I realize it has been HaShem's love that allowed me to go through
>     them.
>
>     To all of you, now that I got hooked up with this group, I don't
>     know what to do with all these e-mails, I think I must have got
>     around 100 today alone, with over half of them from the Dialogue:
>     I started to print out some that I wanted to check out, and allow
>     my little group to also look into, I was overbooked with work and
>     checking e-mails, and studying. That is 40 pages full without
>     today's. Than I also got to hear the message on Sunday night .
>
>     Ross, I glean from your message that you are a real sincere
>     teacher. I have to admit that at this point I would have some
>     questions. I told my wife that it could be that I am now facing
>     one of the most difficult cross-roads in my life, why so? Because
>     I sense a real warm and loving atmosphere in the group. Had it not
>     been for that humble warm atmosphere with you all, I would have
>     backed off as soon as I sensed that you believe that Jesus might
>     after all be the long waited for messiah. (as I also believed most
>     of my life).
>
>      In the Our little group of about 1/2 dozen, only 4 of us left,
>     (none of my family included beside me), have been with the two
>     house movement, as messianic Jews, or Ephraimites, only to find
>     ourselves deeply disappointed possibly because of  the leadership.
>     Anyone acquainted with Moshe Kuniochowski and  the conferences in
>     Kansas City? At the same time we became quite much convinced after
>     careful studying that the New Testament and the Torah did not
>     really seem to be led by the same Spirit of the God of Abraham
>     Isaac and Jacob.And were quite convinced that Jesus could not be
>     the true messiah. So far it seems to me you all seem to still have
>     a high esteem for the New Testament, so have we now thrown out the
>     baby with the dirty bath water?
>
>       It is only your warmth that I sensed so clear, and I don't know
>     what has actually led you all together, else than having
>     experienced some deep water to pass through as well. This is a bit
>     overwhelming. I am trying to get the jist out of what you all are
>     really into. I mentioned earlier that I may have had the pendulum
>     swinging over too far , first from  leaving all modern- ism, in
>     mennonit-ism, to digging up my garden with a fork, in other words,
>     using only horses for power. We moved into the Jungles of Central
>     America. I didn't want our children to have a higher education
>     than the bare minimum to get by,  and to make a long story short,
>     after 18 years in Belize C.A. We came back to  Canada  with a
>     family of 8 children, a sickly wife and mother who had a hard time
>     of it to cope. And had nothing to speak of, broke financially as
>     well as spiritually as it appeared.
>
>     My wife was not healthy, part of it could be Bi-Polar or
>     Schizophrenia. Some of our children are struggling with the same.
>     I believe though this has all been a blessing in disguise. I sense
>     that HaShem had a purpose for me to be led through all this. I
>     would likely not have searched so deep had it not been for the
>     difficulties that we have faced.
>
>     Blessings from Cornelius Reimer
>
>
>     kim alvarado wrote:
>>     Cornie,
>>
>>     I have been away for a few days and have over 100 emails to catch
>>     up on.  I just wanted to make sure to tell you, "Welcome,
>>     Welcome,Welcome"
>>
>>     Kim
>>
>>     On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Pat Robbins
>>     <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
>>     <mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         I accidentally hit "send," and I wasn't finished writing yet,
>>         Cornie!  You also sent me "Our Life's Story And My Journey To
>>         The Sabbath," which I haven't finished yet, but I thank you
>>         so much for your generosity in having included that book as
>>         well. 
>>          
>>         I'm so glad you were able to listen to Ross's teaching
>>         tonight.  I LOVE SUNDAY SHUL!!!!!  I just want to welcome you
>>         again to "Dialogue," and I hope you find it as huge a
>>         blessing as I do. 
>>          
>>         Love,
>>          
>>         Pat
>>
>>         *From:* Pat Robbins <mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>>         *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:47 PM
>>         *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>         <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>
>>         Yes, that's me!  I did buy your "Israel, G-d's Covenant
>>         People."  Forgive me if I never acknowledged receiving it,
>>         Cornie.  I didn't find it a difficult read either. 
>>
>>         *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
>>         *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:09 PM
>>         *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>         <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>         *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>
>>         Hey Pat, I had no problem at all hearing the message tonight.
>>         And likely because I did just that, I downloaded Windows
>>         Media Player to something higher than what I had.
>>
>>          So that 's who you are, so good to hear from you, and in a
>>         fellowship of loving people like these.  I remember you well.
>>         I think you even ordered one of my books. I think it was a
>>         kind of tough one to read, "Israel, God's Covenant People"
>>         right? I am working on rewriting  some of it to be easier to
>>         read. Or have you ever received it? I can not remember
>>         hearing from you later. If you never got it please let me
>>         know, because I think you paid for it, right?
>>
>>         Cornie
>>
>>
>>
>>         Pat Robbins wrote:
>>>         Cornie, when you go to the Roots of Faith site, click
>>>         "Listen Live."  Then scroll down to a window titled "Listen
>>>         to the Live Audio Feed."  Then look at the box to the right
>>>         of that one and you'll see, "The Windows Media Format Stream
>>>         Requires the FREE Windows Media Player."  Your computer must
>>>         be version 9 or above (not sure what that means) and you
>>>         just need to click the red writing that says, "Download and
>>>         install Windows Media Player 9+."  Then you'll be set up to
>>>         listen!  I'd do that right now if you can so it will be all
>>>         ready for you tonight.
>>>          
>>>         Hope it works!
>>>          
>>>         Pat 
>>>
>>>         *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
>>>         *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:30 PM
>>>         *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>         <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>>         *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>>
>>>         Thank you Steve for inviting me into this group where
>>>         something is right as it seems to me. I am not sure if I
>>>         will be able to hear the message tonight, as it already
>>>         seems to not work when I try to get in to listen to a prior
>>>         message. But I will see. Sunday night is a good time for me
>>>         to listen in on a message that is up-building, and in the
>>>         first place led of HaShem.
>>>
>>>         On the Sabbath day our group usually comes together, for
>>>         Torah studies, and even for a noon  meal together. And
>>>         against Torah laws, I have to drive about an hour to get
>>>         there. That would have to change if I were to  be able to
>>>         listen in to the  Sabbath message with you people.
>>>
>>>         Cornie
>>>
>>>          
>>>
>>>         Steve Mathe wrote:
>>>>         Cornie,
>>>>
>>>>         Here are some ideas that may help, or at least how I see
>>>>         things.
>>>>
>>>>         Am glad you joined this group, it has the main ingredients:
>>>>         seekers of G-d coupled with a lot of love of G-d and His
>>>>         seekers...
>>>>         There are other things in the offing and you will find
>>>>         out... HaShem is working on a lot of things and has begun
>>>>         to gather us in a big way... for now those of us in the
>>>>         "first contingent from the Valley of Dry Bones" are called
>>>>         to be pioneers, in setting the trend, in blazing a trail in
>>>>         what Jacob told us: "Gather yourselves together."  This
>>>>         group, is just one such group, where this injunction is
>>>>         being acted out.
>>>>
>>>>         As for Jesus, I think his name and identity is being sorted
>>>>         out in our times and we are finding out the truth about
>>>>         him, Christianity, and a lot of other matters we need to
>>>>         know to navigate through the wilderness of isms, religions,
>>>>         doctrines and ideas. We all come form some form of
>>>>         Christianity, even if we were secular, since Christianity
>>>>         has pervaded the Western World and its principles have
>>>>         touched all of us to different degrees.  G-d has allowed
>>>>         that for a purpose and we will find that out in His good time.
>>>>
>>>>         Unfortunately the "churchianity" mindset, of the "one true
>>>>         church" has not fostered love of fellow seekers.
>>>>         Persecutions have abounded to this day, e.g. your "shunning"
>>>>         by your own family. What a lot of 'church' people have not
>>>>         realized is the fact that the love they need to practice is
>>>>         G-d's /"chesed" /which is directly related to the
>>>>         /Covenant, /which historical Christianity has superceded
>>>>         with their "New Covenant" which ironically preaches love
>>>>         toward fellow man. While Christians have done a lot of good
>>>>         works, in the name of their central doctrine of "love," the
>>>>         important detail of that love being connected to the
>>>>         "Covenant" has eluded them.  Now that HaShem has begun to
>>>>         restore all things, chief among them His people Israel, we
>>>>         are called to return to the Covenant, which we as a people
>>>>         have cast away in ancient times. Others, who are and were
>>>>         not Israel, are called to join the returning Israelites.
>>>>
>>>>         Part of this "restoration" is the hearing of His message,
>>>>         from whatever sources there are, the NT being one of them. 
>>>>         As such, as Ross says, many are being called, headed,
>>>>         gathered, and directed into the right direction from the
>>>>         teachings of the NT. To that may I add, is that we are
>>>>         being pointed to return to the Covenant, to major in the
>>>>         majors and not the minors, and to live authentic observant
>>>>         lives based on the Torah of  G-d.  Shabbat keeping is one
>>>>         of the central tenets of the Covenant, and is the
>>>>         cornerstone of observance for all those who seek the G-d of
>>>>         Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Am sure that you will continue
>>>>         to be lead by the G-d of Avraham, and as such, to grow in
>>>>         that observance as we all are doing likewise, walking the
>>>>         "straight paths of the Torah."
>>>>
>>>>         Welcome to Dialogue / Roots of Faith.
>>>>
>>>>         Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         At 01:50 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>         Thank you all who let yourself be heard on my behalf.
>>>>>         Maybe I tried to get in somewhere that was not the way to
>>>>>         enter, where I needed to use my e-mail and also my
>>>>>         password. And I just did not seem to get through when I
>>>>>         clicked "let me in". I still don't know what happened that
>>>>>         I got in.
>>>>>
>>>>>         But already I found some very interesting remarks,
>>>>>         pointing back to the time of Jeshuah's days, that is as we
>>>>>         read of it in the New Testament. I don't know how much
>>>>>         time I will have, even to read what all comes over and
>>>>>         into this dialogue. I am an uneducated  and quite old
>>>>>         grandpa (72) with a Christian wife and 20 grand children.
>>>>>         I am open to learn anything that is the truth, that has
>>>>>         managed to keep me ignorant and blinded of it's deep
>>>>>         truth. So this site seems to be  where this could happen
>>>>>         if I am wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>         I was a dedicated Christian for most of my life, but have
>>>>>         given that up at this point, although I still am more than
>>>>>         ever dedicated and am in what I consider a warmer
>>>>>         relationship with my maker, Hashem, than ever before. Most
>>>>>         of my study comes from orthodox Judaism. (Not mainstream
>>>>>         assimilated Judaism) My question is: Has my pendulum swung
>>>>>         to far over when I have lost confidence in the New
>>>>>         Testament as true authentic Word of G-d?
>>>>>
>>>>>         I consider myself a Noahide at this point. And am not as
>>>>>         religiously keeping to the Sabbath laws, as when I was in
>>>>>         what I considered  messianic Judaism. I would like to hear
>>>>>         none condemnatory advice, should I be wrong. Which will
>>>>>         take a bit of grace for me to change from my present
>>>>>         views. And it would probably take some wisdom to bring it
>>>>>         across to me too. Shalom to all seekers of truth.
>>>>>
>>>>>         Cornelius
>>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>>           
>>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>         No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>         Checked by AVG. 
>>>>         Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
>>>>           
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>           
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>         No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>         Checked by AVG. 
>>>         Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
>>>           
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>       
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG. 
>>     Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1403 - Release Date: 29/04/2008 7:26 AM
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1407 - Release Date: 30/04/2008 11:35 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/f34879ae/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu May  1 01:38:33 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:38:33 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
Message-ID: <200805010645.m416joQ4016676@mail105c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080430/bb867d1f/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  1 01:55:41 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 01:55:41 -0500
Subject: Parents [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <01db01c8ab51$a877bfe0$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <005d01c8ab58$5f1ce4e0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Hey Loy, Patty and Jessica, it's Betty here.I know I need to be in bed.  I
actually was, but was awakened with a start.won't get into that now, but I
just wanted to give a hearty "amen" to what you wrote about taking care of
your parents in their old age.actually I am only 5 years away from the age
of your mother, Jessica, so I don't really consider that old at all.  I was
very moved by your story about taking care of your mother, showering her,
etc., and how hard it was for her to accept.I went thru similar things with
my dear mother (of blessed memory) who just died less than a year ago.  I am
too sleepy now, but I can share some beautiful heart-warming stories with
you.  I am so sorry to hear of your mother's illness, but what a blessing it
has to be for both of you to be in the roles you are now.even though it is
painfully hard and bitter sweet, you are, as Patty said, doing one of the
top ten mitzvahs!  I too was with my mother when she slipped into
eternity.she died cradled in my arms, while I was singing to her.she was
indeed a very special woman.and I would not take anything for that memory!

 

Anyway, just had to comment on these beautiful emails.wish I could hug you
all!!! One day that will come to pass!

 

I am here for whatever you may need, Jessica.  My heart goes out to you as
you fulfill this beautiful mitzvah for your mother!  May you both be blessed
richly by HaShem.and you too Loy, for you untiring and unceasing dedication
to your mother.I love all you "girls" as my sisters!

 

Much love and many, many blessings!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Mitchell
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Loy,

 

There's great blessing in taking care of your parents.  The Torah, the top
ten, says if you do this you receive a blessing Ex 20:12 " Honor your father
and mother that your days may be prolonged in the land which Yah your God
gives you."  I took care of both of mine for many years and had the
privilege of being with them at the moment they stepped into eternity.  The
only thing I would change about those years-I would have done more than I
did.  I didn't realize until after that it actually carried this blessing.
Who knows, maybe this is why I get the incredible blessing of being in
Jerusalem now.

 

I'll be praying for your strength, wisdom and JOY in your current journey
Loy!

 

Shalom!

 

Patty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at
102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I
relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever
way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and
said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter,
she would one day be bathing me". 

It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to
return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies
and young children, before we can off into the world.

Blessings to your Mum.

And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is
ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all
that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these
wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

Blessings and Shalom,

Jessica

 

I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care
of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't
have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the
........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time
schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

 

  love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/66aea0ae/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  1 02:04:44 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 02:04:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
In-Reply-To: <200805010645.m416joQ4016676@mail105c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <007801c8ab59$a26eab60$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thank you, Steve, for the reminder.and how fitting that it is also Yom
HaShoah.may we both find ways to publically acknowledge our solidarity with
Eretz Israel.and for all those who have given their lives for her!  

 

Haven't read your Kedoshim  post yet, but looking forward to it as I do all
of your posts!  Thank you for your wisdom and thoughtful comments in
advance!  May HaShem bless you and keep you in His care!

 

Laila tov and blessings to you from Texas at 2:00am.  I have to be up and
wide awake in 4 hours, so I had better get busy getting to sleep, or I will
be like Hanoch.

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer

 

Friends, 

I almost forgot to send this notice out. Thursday is our National Day of
Prayer. I won't preach to you about the importance of this opportunity to
add our prayers to those of our land, this land of Joseph. We may be trying
to connect to Eretz Israel, but we also need to remember this land, the land
that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given us and in which He has
placed us, "the greatest nation on G-d's green Earth"....... This often
quoted verse speaks of itself:


"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."   (II
Chron. 7:14). 

Steve

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/98f12ccd/attachment.html 

From pmitchel at netvision.net.il  Thu May  1 02:25:33 2008
From: pmitchel at netvision.net.il (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 10:25:33 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
In-Reply-To: <007801c8ab59$a26eab60$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <200805010645.m416joQ4016676@mail105c25.carrierzone.com>
	<007801c8ab59$a26eab60$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <023b01c8ab5c$8b3c87c0$6402a8c0@desktop>

Hey y'all,

 

We just had our first public remembrance of the Shoah.  Here at home we have
a 2 minute siren at 10 a.m. and everything (except the arabs) comes to a
silent standstill.  Taxi drivers and other drivers stop where they are and
get out of their car to stand.  It's an incredible scene here.  I went to my
garden door to stand (I want to make it public) and in the street in front
of my home was a taxi stopped with the driver beside his car and a lady at
the bus stop all standing in silence.  As my visitor said, it always gives
chills.  Tonight (assuming this year will be the same as the past) there
will be no regular television except for programs of the Shoah.

 

We'll have this same thing happen next Wednesday as we remember our fallen
soldiers on Memorial Day.  The next day is Independence day, a day of WILD
celebration.  My first year here I went to Ben Yehuda for it and it was pure
bedlam fun!  I went just to look but after getting "foamed" for the 10th
time I got my own can and went for it foaming everyone I could-ahh the sweet
taste of PAYBACK!  I have a pic of the end of the evening of what another
friend and I looked like-NOT a pretty sight!  But much fun! 

 

May we never forget.

 

Patty

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:05 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer

 

Thank you, Steve, for the reminder.and how fitting that it is also Yom
HaShoah.may we both find ways to publically acknowledge our solidarity with
Eretz Israel.and for all those who have given their lives for her!  

 

Haven't read your Kedoshim  post yet, but looking forward to it as I do all
of your posts!  Thank you for your wisdom and thoughtful comments in
advance!  May HaShem bless you and keep you in His care!

 

Laila tov and blessings to you from Texas at 2:00am.  I have to be up and
wide awake in 4 hours, so I had better get busy getting to sleep, or I will
be like Hanoch.

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:39 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer

 

Friends, 

I almost forgot to send this notice out. Thursday is our National Day of
Prayer. I won't preach to you about the importance of this opportunity to
add our prayers to those of our land, this land of Joseph. We may be trying
to connect to Eretz Israel, but we also need to remember this land, the land
that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given us and in which He has
placed us, "the greatest nation on G-d's green Earth"....... This often
quoted verse speaks of itself:


"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."   (II
Chron. 7:14). 

Steve

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/dab9b0cc/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 06:57:00 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 04:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS4378EDDC126AD0CEA71DEBAD80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2076.1113.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/42da12ab/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 07:18:18 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 12:18:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] One Messiah - Two Messianic roles
In-Reply-To: <cda.2ca746db.354a7d5b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050120081218.17608.4819B50A00057478000044C822230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Indeed, Hanoch... I am transcribing a new song HaSHeM started giving me last night on this very subject.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/110332c1/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  1 07:24:34 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:24:34 EDT
Subject: Fwd: Re [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
Message-ID: <bef.28ff01e4.354b1082@aol.com>

In a message dated 4/30/2008 7:57:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
eliasaph at uniteourheart.com writes:

Notice,  that Caiaphas' saying ends here. What follows is John's commentary.  
Even  I assumed that this was said by Caiphas, but it was actually written by 
John  or whoever wrote the Gospel of John.

_51_ (http://bible.cc/john/11-51.htm) 
And  this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year, he did 
 prophesy that Jesus was about to die for the nation, _52_ 
(http://bible.cc/john/11-52.htm)  and not for the nation  only, but that also the children of 
God, who have been scattered abroad, he  may gather together into one. _53_ 
(http://bible.cc/john/11-53.htm)  From that day, therefore,  they took counsel 
together that they may kill him;

(John,  11:47-53 Young's literal translation ) 
Dear ones, I am moved and humbled by the wonderful spirit and cooperation  of 
so many truth seekers dialoguing together, listening to each other in  
meekness and love for one another. It blows me away and I can only attribute it  to 
the Holy Spirit of the living G-D. As one simple answer of why Jesus had  to 
die, it seems to me is so we can experience the very think that is happening  
on this dialogue. For me and perhaps for each of you, G-D is the redeemer and  
savior, so it becomes the question of what method G-D uses to redeem and save? 
I  find it externally difficult to comprehend in these modern days how the  
sacrifice and blood from a lamb, goat, or bullock, or how the ashes from a red  
heifer cleanses. But in the ancient cultures these atonements surly made 
sense  to them. 
 
It seems that G-D bent down to met human kind where they lived in their  
cultures and belief, In some way the fact that Moses stood in the gap on behalf  
of the children of Israel kept them from being destroyed completely. Perhaps on
e  answer to the question we are wrestling with takes us all the way back to 
the  beginning. One man as it was said brought sin into the world. And then 
there is  the seed of the woman Ge 3:15, that would bruise the head of the 
serpent, and  perhaps take away the headship that Adam and Eve yielded to. And then 
as  Adam and Eve lost access to the tree of eternal life, all mankind lost 
eternal  life.
 
It seems it was in the purpose of G-D that a son of Adam, a son of the man  
Adam, would have to come complexly human as Adam was human and run G-D's 
program  through again, and this tine get it right. Now that makes sense to me, and  
perhaps as Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, Jesus, but not  
only Jesus, but all of the Jewish martyrs were stranding in the gap upholding 
 the truth as well. But then what was unique about Jesus standing in the gap 
for  mankind above any other righteous soul?  And then how did the death of  
Jesus by taking the curse of death through sin upon the cross open the way for  
G-D to gather together all of his children scattered abroad as one? And so, 
it  seems a last Adam was needed fully human as Adam was, and used by G-D to 
reverse  the curse from the first Adam. 
 
G-D as redeemer and savior used Jesus' death as the method through  which he 
could redeem all in the first Adam. But then it says if Jesus did not  rise 
from the dead we are all still in our sins. It then becomes a matter if he  did 
rise, then if we walk as he walked in the holy and righteous commandments of  
G-D in character in holiness we are becoming like our Father in heaven. But 
then  that still does not answer our question, how did the death of Jesus open 
up the  way for G-D to redeem mankind? If the first Adam put us into the fix 
that all  mankind is in, it does make sense that it took a last Adam as the son 
of Adam to  get us out of the fix we were in. In any case lets stay with it 
until G-D gives  us clarity and I think if we continue to listen to one another, 
 through someone on this list G-D will give us the light to understand. 
 
Clyde      
 

 



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9e6ce28a/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
Subject: Re: Re [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into
  one?
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:56:36 -0700
Size: 7093
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9e6ce28a/attachment.mht 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 07:28:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:28:58 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith
In-Reply-To: <2076.1113.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <2076.1113.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6629CC11AC3E653D6026FBADB0@phx.gbl>

Hey, Tracy!

Well, y'all certainly sound like all the rest of us!!!  But SOMEDAY we ARE going to have HUGE congregations to tend!!!  For now, I'm so very thankful for each and every one of us who are gathering together.    

My love to you and Lynn this 11th Day of Counting the Omer,

Pat


From: Tracy Osborne 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:57 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith




      --- On Tue, 4/29/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

        From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
        Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Tuesday, April 29, 2008, 9:06 PM


        The cheeks are better [That's great], but you guys keep me smiling!!!!  I feel so blessed to see this all happening - the Tribes coming forth, our family gathering!!!!  And our conversations are delightful to me! [Amein!]

        When I said, "Yours is not the orthodox, Christian view" of Yeshua, I was speaking of your belief that he is not divine, that he was a man, albeit a most extraordinary man, born of a man and woman, and anointed of G-d[Okay. Yeah. The 'Christian' view goes against "The Netsarim Testimony" itself].  I realize that you are a Pastor, and I'm wondering if you are seeing this phenomenal breakthrough among other pastors of your acquaintance, Tracy?  I am in awe of what HaSHem is doing in all our lives! [I've been in 'the wilderness of the peoples' for so long now, I don't really know what is happening with former acquaintances. HaShem told me to move out of those circles and re-build from the foundation up. So, in 2002, we started a Bible Study and Fellowship from our home. Our 'paradigm of understanding' continued to broaden and so it was difficult to build an assembly. So, really, the building has been internal.]

        Believe me, you can't be "long-winded" enough for me!  I'm so thankful for you - for ALL of you - out there!  Thank you so much for your comments on my letter.

        May you and Lynn be blessed with His Breath (Ruach) always,

        Pat


        From: Tracy Osborne 
        Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:56 PM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith


              Dear Pat, I hope your 'smiling cheeks' a feeling better  .

              See my comments below which I [inserted in brackets] within your paragraphs.

              --- On Mon, 4/28/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


                From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
                Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 11:28 PM


                Tracy, this is very interesting.  I think I am understanding you to say that Yeshua was a man - a human being, with fully human parents (with which I too agree)[Correct] .  I find certain similarities in your take on things and James' views as expressed in his book, The Jesus Dynasty [I just ordered his book last week. I look forward to reading it].  I think you are saying that Jesus saw himself as the Davidic heir to the throne, as does James espouse [Yes. I believe that The Kingdom was being Offered in the 1st generation. And, it wasn't fully clear to Paul and others, until James was murdered in approximately 62C.E, that the Offer would be withdrawn and postponed until the End. Maybe The 7-year period between 63 to 70 C.E. could have been the time of Triumph spoken of in Zachariah 14 instead of the tragedy it ended with. The 7-year period was transferred to the End. I'm not sure at what point Yeshua realized that He had a Lamb role to fulfill before he would take up his Lion role].  And, if I'm not mistaken, you further believe that he definitely saw himself as Messiah [although he was reluctant to announce such], in light of Isaiah 53, and fully believed that his own death would atone for the sins of mankind [this is hinted at in the Torah].  Yours is not the orthodox, Christian view of his extraordinary life [I'm not sure what this means], but it retains the elements pertaining to a mandatory, substitute sacrifice for sins. [The doctrine of 'Imputation' comes into play here. And can be shown in multiple places in the Torah. There are multiple reflections and overtones that point at something beyond themselves in the Statutes of of the Torah and in examples of our people in the Torah and Prophets. For example, in Genesis 22, "...God will provide himself a lamb..." However, a Ram was provided - Where is the Lamb!"  And then, Abraham offered up the ram "for a burnt offering in the stead of his son".   In the stead of has to do with 'imputation'. I believe the reverse was done with the man Yeshua ben David who was the Lamb & HaShem laid on him the sins of the world through 'imputation', in the stead of a ram. Remember Ezekiel, called the son of man, bore the sins of Judah and Israel as he lay on his side.] 
                I'm probably not stating this very well.  Forgive me if I'm messing up.  However, IF I'm understanding you correctly, I surely think this concept needs to be explored. [Exploration!!]       - - - - - - - - - ROSSSS!!!!!

                [Sorry for getting so long winded.




                I also understand Hanoch's view that if HaSHem was going to raise someone from the dead to be Messiah in the End Times, it would surely seem likely to be David [I definitely believe that David will be raised and will function in the Government of the Messiah ben David].  His statement makes me think of Amos 9:11, where it says, "On that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and repair its breaches; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in days of old...."  I can remember Vendyl saying he thought that verse implied actually raising up David. [Could be. And I think of 144,000 standing on Mt Zion as firstfruits -Maybe this has to do with the Resurrection Firstfruits of those who have been asleep Revelation 14 - that would definitely include the Beloved David. We definitely have to tie several scriptures together to get the full picture. I think that Brother Hanoch has legitimate points to be made and deserve a reasonable and plausible answer to his points, even if he disagrees. Hanoch only gave us a snippet of his belief and I'm sure he could share a lot more.  'New Testament' belief sees all things connected and flowing from God's Mashiach. Many Rabbinical statements say this also. For example: "At the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah had already come into being, because he existed in God's mind even before the world was created."  Pesikta Rabbati 33:6  An ancient Jewish work     Also:  "The Sages (Sanhedrin 98b) sought to find the human being in whose merit the world was created....R' Yochanan holds it was Messiah, a descendant of David, who would bring the purpose of Creation to its fruition....and Messiah, who will be the ultimate scion of the Davidic dynasty, and who will bring the entire world to acknowledge the Giver of the Torah.  "Tehillim Zichron Avraham"  Artscroll 2006 p. xv   I show the connection of this thought with John 1 and others http://www.onhigh.org/JohnChapter1.htm   Brother Hanoch states that one of the jobs of the coming Messiah is to, negotiate "world peace". That statement has much more to say for itself, if we view it as, past, present, and future negotiations. Brother Hanoch also ceded the possibility that Yeshua may have been a candidate for the Messiah while he was alive. Well, at least, he is not saying that Yeshua never existed as I have heard others say. "Breath of God, please breathe your inspiration upon us!!] Much more to say, but I'm very long winded, huh? 

                Then there is the marvelous teaching that Ross did last night [absolutely!], concerning the fact that HaShem IS our king.  So WHY would we even want another king, and WHY would G-d give us one? [I'll let Ross go with that. But suffice it to say, we seem to always fall short of God's ideal and first plan. And so, God creates a plan for eventually getting us back to His ideal.]

                There's a lot of puzzle pieces here, and I would love to fit them together! [No doubt, you can and do.]  Thank you so much for sharing your views with us, Tracy [Thank You for listening!!!].  We are all striving to follow hard after HaSHem, and therefore are searching diligently for the truth that for so many centuries eluded our fathers.  I certainly see no reason for anyone to apologize for telling the others what they are thinking, as long as there is no malice in their hearts toward their brothers (or "cousins" as the case may be!). [Me neither]

                I'm so sleepy I may be making no sense at all (and Hey!!!  I can do THAT just as well when I'm wide awake!!!.)

                My sincere love to all, and may we work together to find the Ancient Path.

                Pat


                From: Tracy Osborne 
                Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:27 PM
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
                Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith


                      Thanks Clyde. I think you're rcorrect. In fact, I wrote a book on this some time ago. 



                      http://www.onhigh.org/VirginBirth1.htm



                      I wrote this an kept adding more to it over a period of time. It could probably be reorganized a bit, but the essentials are there.



                      I also hope that as I have grown, that the Gentleness of the Ruach is sensed more and more. Sometimes email or the way we write can be misunderstood at times. Hopefully, we continue to be 'seasoned' by the Ruach and show the kindness and meekness that we wish to convey.



                      Tracy




                      --- On Mon, 4/28/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> wrote:


                        From: CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com>
                        Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Roots of faith
                        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                        Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 12:53 PM


                        Thanks my good friend Hanoch:

                        I think Hanoch is asking what corruptions I have found in the so-called NT texts. With caution and I pray it will not offend anyone on the dialogue list. My own opinion is the most major corruption in all of the NT texts, follows on the heels of the genealogy in Matthew chapter one. Following the pattern in the Hebrew Scriptures the genealogies are extremely important for tracing the royal blood-line. Matthew traces the blood-line back to Abraham, on through David, then to Joseph the father of Yeshua. The Messiah son of David, i.e. MBD must be of the biological blood-line of David to be the MBD. If Yeshua were not of the blood-line of David, then he can be no more than a Messiah pretender. If Joseph was not the biological father of Yeshua the genealogy is useless. I want to quote James D. G. Dunn a foremost scholar of the NT In his Word Biblical Commentary on Romans 1-8 

                        James D. G. Dunn, who accepts the virgin birth, is puzzled (Dunn 1988:13): ?The degree in which Jesus? Davidic pedigree was simply taken for granted is striking; there was evidently no consciousness of a need to argue for Jesus Messiahship despite his not being of David?s line.?  

                        At least Dunn is honest in one respect. He understands if Mary was impregnated by G-d [heaven forbid] Yeshua was not and could not be of the blood-line of David. But where does Professor Dunn derive his information that Yeshua was not of the line of David? Of course, he gets it from Matthew 1:18-25, texts that completely overthrows the genealogy. This means either the genealogy is correct or the birth narratives in Matt 1:18-25 are correct. But what cannot in any sense of logic, is both the genealogy and the birth narratives be correct since they contradict each other.  Now, allow me to give my studied opinion. I perceive two scribes, two pens at work in the first chapter of Matthew. From Matt 1:1-17, is the pen of a Jewish writer, and from Matt 1:18-25, a corrupted pen of a Greek scribe. Since I mean no offence to anyone, I only ask we understood the purpose of Biblical genealogy and that is to prove blood-line, other wise genealogy would not be in the Bible.

                        Also I would suggest that Matt 1:18-25 appears to intrude upon what is written in Matt 1:1-17. Besides that Mark, John, and Paul know nothing of a virgin birth, and as Paul states in Rom 1:3

                        Yeshua the Messiah was made after the seed, i.e. Greek "sperma" of David. 

                        I don't wish to be crass hear, but surely the conception of a child requires an egg from the mother and sperm from the father. We should also notice when we eliminate Matt 1:18-25, and take Matt 1:1-17and Matt 2:1 in the same context we have perfect harmony. It should read then 

                        Matt 1:17"...So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Messiah are fourteen generation.   Matt 2:1 Now when Yeshua was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of king Herod, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. 

                        Notice the contextual flow and harmony when we bypass Matt 1:18-25. 

                        I do think the corruption of a Greek scribe adding Matt 1:18-25 is the mother of all heresies. The other corruptions are minor in comparison. Well Hanoch I have stuck my neck out there and I even have some friends who try to textually chop it off. But I think the times in which we live, and as never before, we need to prove all things and hold fast to what is true, and Yeshua said in regard to G-d, Thy Word is true. . 

                        Your friend 

                        Clyde     





--------------------------------------------------------
                        Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
_______________________________________________ 


----------------------------------------------------------------
                Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


----------------------------------------------------------------


                _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/afac4a02/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 07:56:15 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:56:15 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>

Boker tov L'Kulchem,
 
    I think John made an excellent point  last evening (he always does!), as 
it became clear that based on our respective  upbringings, and their 
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah,"  we are not always defining it 
the same way.  Below are some quick points  (taken from AISH.com and an 
article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago  since I have to rush off to 
work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively  late...").  
 
    PLEASE NOTE:  These are  part of the traditional Jewish understanding of 
the role of the Messiah  ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' 
BTW...  I am not  trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, 
or do anything  other then show the background of MY understanding of the 
Mashiach, which is  based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY 
important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming  from....
 
    Excerpted from various websites since  I'm out of time:
 
What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The  Bible says that 
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build  the Third Temple (if it's 
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather  all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era  of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David 
Aaron of Isralight, that he  would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, 
oppression, suffering  and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up 
sword against nation, neither  shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge  of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which 
will unite humanity as one. As it  says: "God will be King over all the world 
-- on that day, G-d will be One and  His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the  descendants of David (which is the 
Rabbinical understanding of  'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic 
Dynasty).
 
6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial  system (there are 
some who disagree on that point), as well as the  Sabbatical year and Jubilee

The messiah will be a regular  human being, not a resurrected one, born 
naturally to husband and wife. He is  not to be a god, nor a man born of 
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea  that G-d would take on human form is 
repulsive to Jews because it contradicts  our concept of G-d as being above and 
beyond the limitations of the human body  and situation. Jews believe that G-d 
ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being  who is His creation, be he angel, 
saint, or even the messiah  himself.

Looking  forward to our continued dialogue,
 
        B'Ahavat  Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we  all know Rav Kahane was right...
    
    




**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/c3beb8fe/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 08:13:40 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:13:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] something is right
In-Reply-To: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>

Hi Cornie!

Your 70 questions sound exactly like what we are doing together, except that it may be better to all look at just one or two questions at a time and talk about them, if you don't mind and if it wouldn't be too much trouble for you to two-finger type that much!

Looking so forward to discussing together your first question or questions, as the case may be.

Love,

Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 2:20 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something is right


Yes Kim I was at the Two House conference in Kansas City 2 years in a row, or 2 times. I was a member there. I got some stern reminders from the leader, for the way I admonished him. He once called me a snake that he had to light a grass fire to hunt me out. The reason I was so rough on him was because it seemed to me he as a leader was  the opposite of what i find in this group. I think I may be stepping out of proportion by mentioning this, coming very close if not altogether to lashon harah. (Any one feel free to admonish me for this, if that is what I am doing.) Just prior to this happening, I had a dream that was totally not myself in it . As a Mennonite I had taken a very strong non-resistant stand. In this dream however I was a soldier, it was a time of war. The group or side of the war I was in was up in a balcony like upstairs, It was lighted up and cozy up there, with a staircase on each side, we were looking over the balcony into what was not the inside of a building at all, it was as if it was dusk, and we could not see our enemy very clear, but there were a lot of people, we up on the balcony were the minority. All at once I saw a leading figure, using some not very good words against us, with a long sword in his hand, and very boldly started to come up the stairs. So I took a long lance some 20 feet long ancient spear I had no experience with anything in defense at war, and without fear of anything approached him on the top of the stairs, and he turned around and left.  It was after that dream, I came into some very earnest conversation with that leader through e-mails. He spread it all over the group, with some 300 people involved. Making me look like a real culprit . That is when I left Christianity.

 I have written 2 books later. (Now please understand these books were not written in defiance of what I just wrote) of those two, One is titled  "Israel, God's Covenant People". This was the title of a Christian tract one of my own daughters sent me, hoping this negative Jewish history would help me come back to Christianity.  The other one is really still in the making, by the title:  
"Does Christianity Agree with the Torah (the Old Testament)?

Reflections on the Current State of the Dominant World Religion"

and happens to be a dialogue form between a local Christian Pastor and myself. We are still at it now already for about a year and a half. In this dialogue we have tried to treat each other as friend's, with no one getting agitated even though we totally disagree. The Pastor is convinced that he will persuade me back to Christianity. I am asking him around 75 questions which he has mostly not been able to answer,  but seems to try to evade, although he agreed right from the start that since I did not have confidence in the New Testament any more, that he being a Seminar trained Pastor, claiming to have even studied the Hebrew, and so he claimed he could prove the messiah being Jesus out of the old Testament alone.

I would be interested to know what you people would say in answer to these questions. And please understand, I am not claiming to be right. I want to be able to stand free of any evil charge before my maker in Judgment day. This writing contains about some 70 pages by now.

Concerning printing out some of these dialogue articles picked out from you people, 40 pages by now,  I do this to share with my group who all do not have Internet. I use a lot of paper as a rule, printing is one thing I likely indulge in a bit.and I think I was only introduced to your dialogue around a week ago. I print out my own books when I have the time for it. I am overwhelmingly busy. But if anyone would be interested to help me answer those questions, I could e-mail you my dialogue with the Pastor.

 Since I am working as a welder in day time, I went to bed early only to be wakened by a telephone call for my wife. But than I decided or felt something stirring inside of me, prompting me to go to my computer and get at these e-mails, only to spend the time typing this, since I am a 2 finger typer it takes me a while. Tomorrow we want to go to a funeral of one of my Aunt's, and I don't want to fall asleep in church, so I better retire.

Shalom to all, 

Cornelius



kim alvarado wrote: 
  Cornie,

  Not sure if we've met or not.  Were you at the conference?  

  I have been going through some difficult times, but HaShem is with me guiding my steps.  Some pretty amazing things have been happening.  Baruch HaShem!  He is in control.  

  It sounds like you have been wading through some tough times too.  So glad that you found this group. As I believe I said in a previous email I have never felt as loved and accepted as I do in this group.  The thing is that you can't figure what we are all into, because we are all different.  We have different beliefs.  What we do all seem to have in common is a desire for Truth.  We are on a wonderful journey, led by HaShem.  

  May Hashem Bless you and guide your footsteps.

  Kim


  On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:

    Thank you Kim, I don't know if we ever met, it sounds like you have been going through some deep water, not just ankle deep, or what? I have been very busy checking all the e-mails before I ever as much as knew about this dialoging group of such  friendly people.  I too have been through some valley's in my like, so far I realize it has been HaShem's love that allowed me to go through them. 

    To all of you, now that I got hooked up with this group, I don't know what to do with all these e-mails, I think I must have got around 100 today alone, with over half of them from the Dialogue: I started to print out some that I wanted to check out, and allow my little group to also look into, I was overbooked with work and checking e-mails, and studying. That is 40 pages full without today's. Than I also got to hear the message on Sunday night . 

    Ross, I glean from your message that you are a real sincere teacher. I have to admit that at this point I would have some questions. I told my wife that it could be that I am now facing one of the most difficult cross-roads in my life, why so? Because I sense a real warm and loving atmosphere in the group. Had it not been for that humble warm atmosphere with you all, I would have backed off as soon as I sensed that you believe that Jesus might after all be the long waited for messiah. (as I also believed most of my life).

     In the Our little group of about 1/2 dozen, only 4 of us left, (none of my family included beside me), have been with the two house movement, as messianic Jews, or Ephraimites, only to find ourselves deeply disappointed possibly because of  the leadership. Anyone acquainted with Moshe Kuniochowski and  the conferences in Kansas City? At the same time we became quite much convinced after careful studying that the New Testament and the Torah did not really seem to be led by the same Spirit of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.And were quite convinced that Jesus could not be the true messiah. So far it seems to me you all seem to still have a high esteem for the New Testament, so have we now thrown out the baby with the dirty bath water?

      It is only your warmth that I sensed so clear, and I don't know what has actually led you all together, else than having experienced some deep water to pass through as well. This is a bit overwhelming. I am trying to get the jist out of what you all are really into. I mentioned earlier that I may have had the pendulum swinging over too far , first from  leaving all modern- ism, in mennonit-ism, to digging up my garden with a fork, in other words, using only horses for power. We moved into the Jungles of Central America. I didn't want our children to have a higher education than the bare minimum to get by,  and to make a long story short, after 18 years in Belize C.A. We came back to  Canada  with a family of 8 children, a sickly wife and mother who had a hard time of it to cope. And had nothing to speak of, broke financially as well as spiritually as it appeared.

    My wife was not healthy, part of it could be Bi-Polar or Schizophrenia. Some of our children are struggling with the same. I believe though this has all been a blessing in disguise. I sense that HaShem had a purpose for me to be led through all this. I would likely not have searched so deep had it not been for the difficulties that we have faced.

    Blessings from Cornelius Reimer


    kim alvarado wrote: 
      Cornie,

      I have been away for a few days and have over 100 emails to catch up on.  I just wanted to make sure to tell you, "Welcome, Welcome,Welcome"

      Kim


      On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

        I accidentally hit "send," and I wasn't finished writing yet, Cornie!  You also sent me "Our Life's Story And My Journey To The Sabbath," which I haven't finished yet, but I thank you so much for your generosity in having included that book as well.  

        I'm so glad you were able to listen to Ross's teaching tonight.  I LOVE SUNDAY SHUL!!!!!  I just want to welcome you again to "Dialogue," and I hope you find it as huge a blessing as I do.  

        Love,

        Pat


        From: Pat Robbins 
        Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:47 PM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something is right


        Yes, that's me!  I did buy your "Israel, G-d's Covenant People."  Forgive me if I never acknowledged receiving it, Cornie.  I didn't find it a difficult read either.  


        From: Cornie Reimer 
        Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:09 PM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something is right


        Hey Pat, I had no problem at all hearing the message tonight. And likely because I did just that, I downloaded Windows Media Player to something higher than what I had.

         So that 's who you are, so good to hear from you, and in a fellowship of loving people like these.  I remember you well. I think you even ordered one of my books. I think it was a kind of tough one to read, "Israel, God's Covenant People" right? I am working on rewriting  some of it to be easier to read. Or have you ever received it? I can not remember hearing from you later. If you never got it please let me know, because I think you paid for it, right? 

        Cornie



        Pat Robbins wrote: 
          Cornie, when you go to the Roots of Faith site, click "Listen Live."  Then scroll down to a window titled "Listen to the Live Audio Feed."  Then look at the box to the right of that one and you'll see, "The Windows Media Format Stream Requires the FREE Windows Media Player."  Your computer must be version 9 or above (not sure what that means) and you just need to click the red writing that says, "Download and install Windows Media Player 9+."  Then you'll be set up to listen!  I'd do that right now if you can so it will be all ready for you tonight.

          Hope it works!

          Pat 


          From: Cornie Reimer 
          Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:30 PM
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
          Subject: Re: [Dialogue] something is right


          Thank you Steve for inviting me into this group where something is right as it seems to me. I am not sure if I will be able to hear the message tonight, as it already seems to not work when I try to get in to listen to a prior message. But I will see. Sunday night is a good time for me to listen in on a message that is up-building, and in the first place led of HaShem.

          On the Sabbath day our group usually comes together, for Torah studies, and even for a noon  meal together. And against Torah laws, I have to drive about an hour to get there. That would have to change if I were to  be able to listen in to the  Sabbath message with you people.

          Cornie

           

          Steve Mathe wrote: 
            Cornie, 

            Here are some ideas that may help, or at least how I see things. 

            Am glad you joined this group, it has the main ingredients: seekers of G-d coupled with a lot of love of G-d and His seekers... 
            There are other things in the offing and you will find out... HaShem is working on a lot of things and has begun to gather us in a big way... for now those of us in the "first contingent from the Valley of Dry Bones" are called to be pioneers, in setting the trend, in blazing a trail in what Jacob told us: "Gather yourselves together."  This group, is just one such group, where this injunction is being acted out. 

            As for Jesus, I think his name and identity is being sorted out in our times and we are finding out the truth about him, Christianity, and a lot of other matters we need to know to navigate through the wilderness of isms, religions, doctrines and ideas. We all come form some form of Christianity, even if we were secular, since Christianity has pervaded the Western World and its principles have touched all of us to different degrees.  G-d has allowed that for a purpose and we will find that out in His good time. 

            Unfortunately the "churchianity" mindset, of the "one true church" has not fostered love of fellow seekers. Persecutions have abounded to this day, e.g. your "shunning" 
            by your own family. What a lot of 'church' people have not realized is the fact that the love they need to practice is G-d's "chesed" which is directly related to the Covenant, which historical Christianity has superceded with their "New Covenant" which ironically preaches love toward fellow man. While Christians have done a lot of good works, in the name of their central doctrine of "love," the important detail of that love being connected to the "Covenant" has eluded them.  Now that HaShem has begun to restore all things, chief among them His people Israel, we are called to return to the Covenant, which we as a people have cast away in ancient times. Others, who are and were not Israel, are called to join the returning Israelites. 

            Part of this "restoration" is the hearing of His message, from whatever sources there are, the NT being one of them.  As such, as Ross says, many are being called, headed, gathered, and directed into the right direction from the teachings of the NT. To that may I add, is that we are being pointed to return to the Covenant, to major in the majors and not the minors, and to live authentic observant lives based on the Torah of  G-d.  Shabbat keeping is one of the central tenets of the Covenant, and is the cornerstone of observance for all those who seek the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Am sure that you will continue to be lead by the G-d of Avraham, and as such, to grow in that observance as we all are doing likewise, walking the "straight paths of the Torah." 

            Welcome to Dialogue / Roots of Faith.

            Steve



            At 01:50 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote:

              Thank you all who let yourself be heard on my behalf. Maybe I tried to get in somewhere that was not the way to enter, where I needed to use my e-mail and also my password. And I just did not seem to get through when I clicked "let me in". I still don't know what happened that I got in.

              But already I found some very interesting remarks, pointing back to the time of Jeshuah's days, that is as we read of it in the New Testament. I don't know how much time I will have, even to read what all comes over and into this dialogue. I am an uneducated  and quite old grandpa (72) with a Christian wife and 20 grand children. I am open to learn anything that is the truth, that has managed to keep me ignorant and blinded of it's deep truth. So this site seems to be  where this could happen if I am wrong. 

              I was a dedicated Christian for most of my life, but have given that up at this point, although I still am more than ever dedicated and am in what I consider a warmer relationship with my maker, Hashem, than ever before. Most of my study comes from orthodox Judaism. (Not mainstream assimilated Judaism) My question is: Has my pendulum swung to far over when I have lost confidence in the New Testament as true authentic Word of G-d? 

              I consider myself a Noahide at this point. And am not as religiously keeping to the Sabbath laws, as when I was in what I considered  messianic Judaism. I would like to hear none condemnatory advice, should I be wrong. Which will take a bit of grace for me to change from my present views. And it would probably take some wisdom to bring it across to me too. Shalom to all seekers of truth.

              Cornelius

--------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  --------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
  
----------------------------------------------------------------------
          _______________________________________________

----------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
        _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------
        _______________________________________________


        _______________________________________________




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1403 - Release Date: 29/04/2008 7:26 AM
  
    _______________________________________________




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1407 - Release Date: 30/04/2008 11:35 AM
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/b3153ab8/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  1 09:43:50 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:43:50 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <bbf.2b752b9f.354b3126@aol.com>

Hey Hanoch:
 
Thank you for outlining these Jewish beliefs. In order you wrote:
 
 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the  Third Temple (if it's 
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
 
CB comment:
 
Hanoch, I believe the first statement that the MBD will  oversee the 
rebuilding of the third Temple. I do not think the third Temple will  be built before 
the MBD comes. For that reason I believe the Tabernacle David  pitched for the 
ARK not only exists, but will be discovered, and maybe sooner  than later. 
 
 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah  43:5-6).


CB comment
 
I believe the second point as well, but I would add a  two-step phase. That 
is, I think HaShem will first bring back a remnant of  each of the tribes, and 
then the MBD when he comes  will gather a great multitude that will supercede 
the multitude who  came out of Egypt. I think the great moment that will break 
forth in this  generation is the return of HaShem to Zion, and his glorious 
presence in the  Kavod. [cloud] And I believe HaShem will speak out of the 
cloud in the  Tabernacle of David - and then HaShem will restore the truth in ways 
we can only  imagine until it happens. Wow - did I say that?
 
 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned  from Rabbi David 
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world  peace'), and end all hatred, 
oppression, suffering and disease. As it says:  "Nation shall not lift up 
sword against nation, neither shall man learn war  anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)


CB  comment    
 
I believe ever word in point 3, and of course Jesus/Yeshua  fulfilled none of 
this. However, if Christian scholars would pay attention  to the Jewish sages 
they would know that before a MBD will appear, a MBJ will  come or has come 
on the scene, to be killed. And I think that Jesus/Yeshua as a  suffering 
servant did fulfill that role. I do believe Jesus/Yeshua did offer one  time and 
one time only himself as king of the Jews Zech 9:9. But as a prophet  like 
Moses, Jeremiah, and other prophets, nationally the leadership would not  receive 
him, but individually many did believe him.  Now, this is just my  belief and I 
respect any belief that believes otherwise. 
 
4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His  teachings, which 
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over  all the world 
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One"  (Zechariah 14:9). 
 
CB comment
 
Again, I believe every word in point 4. I also believe though  that MBD will 
be king under the G-D of Israel who is King of Kings. As the King  under the 
King of Kings I believe Jesus/Yeshua will lead all mankind to worship  the only 
true G-D of Israel - AND THERE WIIL BE ONE TORAH FOR  ALL.  And what do we 
hear coming from the synagogue without walls? ONE  TORAH FOR ALL. Way to go 
Ross, preach it from the house-tops, and with  technology preach it globally.
 
   
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the  descendants of David (which is the 
Rabbinical understanding of  'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic 
Dynasty).
 
CB comment
 
I agree totally and completely with point 5. I would only add  that I believe 
the literal Sukkah that David pitched for the ARK, and the ARK of  Testimony 
is in the Tomb chambers of David. I believe that Jeremiah's gift  - Jer 40:5, 
was indeed the ARK of the covenant, and the golden alter of  incense. Can we 
prove it? Not yet. But I believe when the evidence is gathered  and I have done 
that Scriptural and historically, that Jeremiah hid these sacred  items for 
this day and time. But to believe is one thing and find the tomb  chambers of 
king David is another. We will see and perhaps in not to many years  or days in 
the future. 
 
6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial  system (there are 
some who disagree on that point), as well as the  Sabbatical year and Jubilee

 
CB comment
 
The Sanhedrin is now established - the Aaronic priesthood is  known, a high 
priest can be raised up. I don't think animal sacrifice will be  
re-established, but I do think a meal offering in thanksgiving to G-D will be  most 
pleasing. I also think G-D will bring both the Rabbinic Jews and the  Josephites to 
the table of fellowship and just as we are listening and hearing  each other, I 
think G-D will require the same from both Judah and Joseph in the  hands of 
Ephraim. Perhaps we on this dialogue are learning now what and how it  will 
occur in the re gathering. 
 
The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected  one, born 
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born  of 
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form  is 
repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above  and 
beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that  G-d 
ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel,  
saint, or even the messiah himself.

Looking  forward to our continued dialogue,
 
CB comment   
 
I believe MBJ did come and the Romans hung him on a cross. I  believe he was 
human as Adam was human. He worshipped the only true God, Jn  17:3, even said 
only G-D is good in the ultimate sense. Now, resurrection was  the belief of 
the Pharisees, but the resurrection of the MBJ - I will leave open  for each to 
be persuaded one way or another in their own mind. 
 
Thanks Hanoch my pal
 
Clyde 
 
 
 
    



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/4e161b69/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:56:15 EDT
Size: 11140
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/4e161b69/attachment.mht 

From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 09:49:08 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:49:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>

When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.  In 
my simple understanding I can go to this.


Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: *Revere 
God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind*:
Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for everything 
unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all is said and 
done: *Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all 
mankind.*


Rick
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/0c7fce9d/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 09:52:23 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:52:23 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>
	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>
	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>

LOVELY, RICK!!!  That sums it up alright!  ~ Pat


From: Rick Gozhanskij 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:49 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter


When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.  In my simple understanding I can go to this.


Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind: 
Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for everything unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind. 


Rick



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/424a185a/attachment.html 

From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 09:58:30 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:58:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4819DA96.1050804@yahoo.com>

My buddy Glenn pointed that out to me earlier this morning when I was 
having my own inner struggles of understanding.




Pat Robbins wrote:
> *LOVELY, RICK!!!  *That sums it up alright!  ~ Pat
>
> *From:* Rick Gozhanskij <mailto:rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:49 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
>
> When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.  
> In my simple understanding I can go to this.
>
>
> Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: *Revere 
> God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind*:
> Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for 
> everything unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all 
> is said and done: *Revere God and observe His commandments! For this 
> applies to all mankind.*
>
>
> Rick
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/8153942a/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 10:06:30 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:06:30 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com><BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>
	<4819DA96.1050804@yahoo.com>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com><BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>
	<4819DA96.1050804@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS744B0E93F787CF306456ABADB0@phx.gbl>

Right on the nose as usual, Glenn!  And I thank you, Rick, for sharing it with us.


From: Rick Gozhanskij 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:58 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter


My buddy Glenn pointed that out to me earlier this morning when I was having my own inner struggles of understanding.




Pat Robbins wrote: 
  LOVELY, RICK!!!  That sums it up alright!  ~ Pat


  From: Rick Gozhanskij 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:49 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter


  When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.  In my simple understanding I can go to this.


  Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind: 
  Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for everything unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind. 


  Rick



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/2883c431/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 10:04:53 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:04:53 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl><4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1856756284-1209654781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-149855851-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Amein Rick.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Gozhanskij <rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>

Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:49:08 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter


When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.? In my simple understanding I can go to this.
 
 
 Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind: 
 Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for everything unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind. 
 
 
 Rick
 _______________________________________________


From loyb at prodigy.net  Thu May  1 10:30:11 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:30:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin><3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl><8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC><026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325><E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
	<01db01c8ab51$a877bfe0$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <066a01c8aba0$400b2b50$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

tODAH rABAH,  PATTY,   when she passes MY plan is to move to Israel for good.  I lived there 2 yrs in '97-'98 and consider it  my home.   Shalom,  no time for more now.  Loy LEORAH
  ----- Original Message -----
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:07 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Loy,

   

  There's great blessing in taking care of your parents.  The Torah, the top ten, says if you do this you receive a blessing Ex 20:12 " Honor your father and mother that your days may be prolonged in the land which Yah your God gives you."  I took care of both of mine for many years and had the privilege of being with them at the moment they stepped into eternity.  The only thing I would change about those years-I would have done more than I did.  I didn't realize until after that it actually carried this blessing.  Who knows, maybe this is why I get the incredible blessing of being in Jerusalem now.

   

  I'll be praying for your strength, wisdom and JOY in your current journey Loy!

   

  Shalom!

   

  Patty

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:58 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

   

  How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 

  It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.

  Blessings to your Mum.

  And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

  Blessings and Shalom,

  Jessica

   

  I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

   

    love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

     



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/2c9398c7/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 11:00:01 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 16:00:01 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS744B0E93F787CF306456ABADB0@phx.gbl>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<48139591.10002@gninc.ca>	<200804271809.m3RI9sBG023082@pmail2550.carrierzone.com>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca><1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca><BLU125-DS30882560329FC8B2BEADCBADB0@phx.gbl>	<4819D864.6000204@yahoo.com><BLU125-DS4A0BE343E1A81EA7831ACBADB0@phx.gbl>
	<4819DA96.1050804@yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS744B0E93F787CF306456ABADB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050120081600.1752.4819E90100071184000006D822218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

This is also one of John's favorites... we quote it to each other often when the rest seems overwhelming...it cuts right to the chase, much like Yeshua did - Love the Father with all your being and your neighbor as yourself... all else is basically commentary.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/fd240825/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  1 11:52:09 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:52:09 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <ce4.2fe873ac.354b4f39@aol.com>





**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9a90fb4c/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Gary Arvidson" <arvidson at ctc.net>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:46:35 -0400
Size: 124882
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9a90fb4c/attachment.mht 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu May  1 11:56:05 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 09:56:05 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Day of prayer particulars
Message-ID: <200805011656.m41Gu2H9005824@mail114c25.carrierzone.com>

Friends,

Am sending a reminder for us to read Daniel 9 for pointers of what we 
need to pray for, and along what lines we need to pray for mercy for 
ourselves and for our country, and our peoples. Daniel was an 
intercessor, and so are we to intercede for our brothers and sisters 
who do not know what is what. Notice, that Daniel asks for 
forgiveness of the sins of our leaders and our fathers.  This harkens 
back to the Torah, Lev. 26:40, and points to the future, our days, Jer. 14:20.

Here are some sins we need to ask forgiveness for: pride, G-dless 
rationalism and humanism, the unreasonable hatred of racism, the 
holocaust of killing of the unborn,
mindless addictions in hedonism, perversity, moral bankruptcy, 
greed,  general moral bankruptcy, and political liberalism that 
refuses to recognize evil.

Amazingly today it is also Yom Hashoa.  I think this is not a 
coincidence. Please add the remembrance of the martyrs of the 
Holocaust in our days. May the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with 
His strong arm execute justice on the murderers.

Steve

"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." 



From youngbarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 12:35:49 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:35:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <ce4.2fe873ac.354b4f39@aol.com>
References: <ce4.2fe873ac.354b4f39@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CA79C8EDCA894D-FB4-23AE@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom Clyde & Gary - 

???? Okay, are you guys trying to give me MORE 'homework' to read up on?? :-)? In all seriousness, thank you so much for forwarding what you did.? Having just stood in Ir David (the City of David)?less then?2 months ago, you have keyed in to a topic of GREAT interest of mine.? Gary, I would LOVE to get a copy of your book, please let me know where to send the check (and the amount, of course..) so they I can review the entire subject in depth.? You can mail it to:???? 
??????????????????????? Hanoch Young
???????????????????? 200 East 10th Street
???????????????????????? Suite # 111
???????????????????? New York, N.Y. 10003

??? Although I don' t think I'm of Davidic decent ( we all better hope I'm not!), this is a subject that truly intrigues me, so I am looking forward to studying your research, Gary, and I'm glad Clyde passed this along to you - thanks Clyde; you truly are a very good friend, as I've said before!

??? With much appreciation -?and looking forward to continued discussion!

?????Best regards,
???????????????Hanoch

-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:52 pm
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



?




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.




Attached Message




From:

Gary Arvidson <arvidson at ctc.net>



To:

Clyde Brown <cbrown4465 at aol.com>



Subject:

RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



Date:

Thu, 1 May 2008 12:46:35 -0400







Hi Clyde,

?

You asked me to comment.? Not knowing if I should say this much, I am forwarding this first to you for your review.? I?ve never posted on Dialogue, and so I don?t want to go too far.? I?ve never discussed anything with Hanoch.? In short, I said more than I intended to say.? You judge it, and pass it on if you think it is worthwhile.? I just want to be safe.? Thanks.

?

Gary

________________________ 

?

Hello Hanoch,

?

My good friend, Clyde Brown, asked me to participate in this discussion below ? which he has just opened, since he and I have worked together for many years.? I don?t have much time, as ?the cares of this life? demand certain from me at this particular season, and so I tried to think of the quickest way to give you the most succinct input on just one of the subjects that Clyde opened up below.

?

Probably, one of the more important subjects at this time (at least in my estimation) is that of ??the tabernacle of David?? (Am 9:11).? This is because of the implications of this discovery, and what it might even mean in regards to a potential fulfillment of Mt 24:15 (?).? 

?

I have discussed this topic of the Tabernacle in writing ? in a sense that is related to King David ? and a hypothesized ?Master Plan? that he must have had ? assuming, of course, that he was as ?great? as the Torah and other history attest.? After all, we read the timeless words: ??Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King?? (Mt 5:35 KJV).? Who is that?? David?? Other?? 

?

For perspective ? yet for brevity ? I will try to cause my words to be few ? but well chosen.? Therefore I have attached for your review, the contents of Chart 6 from my book entitled: In Search of: King David?s Lost Tomb & Treasure (see: pp.293-298).? For individual review of this Chart 6 for purposes that are separate from the full contents of the entire book, I have compressed the text of my discussion into a small 8-page booklet entitled: Advanced Planning by King David (8pp.).? I have attached the electronic version of that booklet here for your review. ?I?m open to input if there needs to be any revisions / corrections.? This is old copy, and may need updating. ?If anyone is interested in the complete book (of 436pp.), I have a few copies here in my office.

?

The attached booklet is file-coded as C-DT-6A-X.? You will find discussion about the Tabernacle of David on page 7 under the subtitle of: #5. Construction Survived 3000 Years.? I tell about how this hypothesis of the anticipated discovery of an intact Tabernacle came to be proposed in my book ? that was first published in 2001 ? exactly 3000 years from the time that archaeologists figure that David & his mighty men captured the Jebusite fortress / castle in 1000 B.C.E. ? and then renamed it to be: ?The City of David? (note: add 1 for no year zero).? 

?

>From the Mt text cited above, it is little wonder that this small SE hill (of only 10-12 acres), is called: ??the city of the great King?.?? It may be only a very tiny site for the original Jerusalem, but it is mentioned 10 times in the book of Revelation as ??the great city?.?? How ironic.? Is ?the great city? to be identified as (#1) greater Jerusalem today, or is it (#2) the little original small ?great city? of David, the Great King, and which will become the basic field of operation for the two witnesses?? Why would that be ? unless?(?)? Much to ponder here?.

?

Thank you for your consideration of this material?

?

Gary

?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:44 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


?


Hey Hanoch:



?



Thank you for outlining these Jewish beliefs. In order you wrote:



?



?1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).



?



CB comment:



?



Hanoch, I believe the first statement that the MBD will oversee the rebuilding of the third Temple. I do not think the third Temple will be built before the MBD comes. For that reason I believe the Tabernacle David pitched for the ARK not only exists, but will be discovered, and maybe sooner than later.?



?



?2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).



?



CB comment



?



I believe the second point as well, but I would add a two-step?phase. That is, I think HaShem will first bring back a remnant of each of the tribes, and then the MBD when he comes??will gather a great multitude that will supercede the multitude who came out of Egypt. I think the great moment that will break forth in this generation is the return of HaShem to Zion, and his glorious presence in the Kavod. [cloud] And?I believe HaShem will speak out of the cloud in the Tabernacle of David - and then HaShem will restore the truth in ways we can only imagine until it happens. Wow - did I say that?



?



?3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)



?



CB comment????



?



I believe ever word in point 3, and of course Jesus/Yeshua fulfilled none of this. However, if Christian scholars?would pay attention to the Jewish sages they would know that before a MBD will appear, a MBJ will come or has come on the scene, to be killed. And I think that Jesus/Yeshua as a suffering servant did fulfill that role. I do believe Jesus/Yeshua did offer one time and one time only himself as king of the Jews Zech 9:9. But as a prophet like Moses, Jeremiah, and other prophets, nationally the leadership would not receive him, but individually many did believe him.? Now, this is just my belief and I respect any belief that believes otherwise.?



?



4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).?



?



CB comment



?



Again, I believe every word in point 4. I also believe though that MBD will be king under the G-D of Israel who is King of Kings. As the King under the King of Kings I believe Jesus/Yeshua will lead all mankind to worship the only true G-D of Israel - AND THERE WIIL BE ONE TORAH FOR ALL.??And what do we hear coming from the synagogue without walls? ONE TORAH FOR ALL. Way to go Ross, preach it from the house-tops, and with technology preach it globally.



?



? 


5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).



?



CB comment



?



I agree totally and completely with point 5. I would only add that I believe the literal Sukkah that David pitched for the ARK, and the ARK of Testimony is in the Tomb chambers of David. I believe that Jeremiah's gift -?Jer 40:5, was indeed the ARK of the covenant, and the golden alter of incense. Can we prove it? Not yet. But I believe when the evidence is gathered and I have done that Scriptural and historically, that Jeremiah hid these sacred items for this day and time. But to?believe is one thing and find the tomb chambers of king David is another. We will see and perhaps in not to many years or days in the future.?



?



6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee




?



CB comment



?



The Sanhedrin is now established - the Aaronic priesthood is known, a high priest can be raised up. I don't think animal sacrifice will be re-established, but I do think a meal offering in thanksgiving to G-D will be most pleasing. I also think G-D will bring both the Rabbinic Jews and the Josephites to the table of fellowship and just as we are listening and hearing each other, I think G-D will require the same from both Judah and Joseph in the hands of Ephraim. Perhaps we on this dialogue are learning now what and how it will occur in the re gathering.?



?



The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.



????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue,



?



CB comment???



?



I believe MBJ did come and the Romans hung him on a cross. I believe he was human as Adam was human.?He worshipped the only true God, Jn 17:3, even said only G-D is good in the ultimate sense. Now, resurrection was the belief of the Pharisees, but the resurrection of the MBJ - I will leave open for each to be persuaded one way or another in their own mind. 



?



Thanks Hanoch my pal



?



Clyde?



?



?



?



????









Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1409 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 8:39 AM





No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1409 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 8:39 AM











_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/c4a1b549/attachment.html 

From long777 at att.net  Thu May  1 12:45:23 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy Long)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
Message-ID: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please!

Jeremy
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/17ed2fd1/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 13:00:27 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 14:00:27 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bbf.2b752b9f.354b3126@aol.com>
References: <bbf.2b752b9f.354b3126@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CA79CC5E274ABB-FB4-25F8@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com>


Hey Clyde - 



???? Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses to what I wrote.? Whether you and I ultimately agree on some, or all things (either totally, or various points), isn't the central issue here.? The fact that we've been able to share our views, on such "thorny" theological topics, and done so while fully respecting and acknowledging each other, IS the central issue!? THIS indeed IS 'Dialogue,' which (in my humble opinion) will truly serve to have us (individually and collectively), come closer to HaShem, and HIS will.? 

??? I'd love to write more right now....but the 'crisis du jure' beckons....today, work has descended into Dante's 5th level, and is dropping fast........

??? Very Best regards,

?????????????? Your pal in the Big Apple,
????????????????????????? Hanoch

-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:43 am
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view




Hey Hanoch:

?

Thank you for outlining these Jewish beliefs. In order you wrote:

?

?1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

?

CB comment:

?

Hanoch, I believe the first statement that the MBD will oversee the rebuilding of the third Temple. I do not think the third Temple will be built before the MBD comes. For that reason I believe the Tabernacle David pitched for the ARK not only exists, but will be discovered, and maybe sooner than later.?

?

?2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).


?

CB comment

?

I believe the second point as well, but I would add a two-step?phase. That is, I think HaShem will first bring back a remnant of each of the tribes, and then the MBD when he comes??will gather a great multitude that will supercede the multitude who came out of Egypt. I think the great moment that will break forth in this generation is the return of HaShem to Zion, and his glorious presence in the Kavod. [cloud] And?I believe HaShem will speak out of the cloud in the Tabernacle of David - and then HaShem will restore the truth in ways we can only imagine until it happens. Wow - did I say that?

?

?3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)


?

CB comment????

?

I believe ever word in point 3, and of course Jesus/Yeshua fulfilled none of this. However, if Christian scholars?would pay attention to the Jewish sages they would know that before a MBD will appear, a MBJ will come or has come on the scene, to be killed. And I think that Jesus/Yeshua as a suffering servant did fulfill that role. I do believe Jesus/Yeshua did offer one time and one time only himself as king of the Jews Zech 9:9. But as a prophet like Moses, Jeremiah, and other prophets, nationally the leadership would not receive him, but individually many did believe him.? Now, this is just my belief and I respect any belief that believes otherwise.?

?

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).?

?

CB comment

?

Again, I believe every word in point 4. I also believe though that MBD will be king under the G-D of Israel who is King of Kings. As the King under the King of Kings I believe Jesus/Yeshua will lead all mankind to worship the only true G-D of Israel - AND THERE WIIL BE ONE TORAH FOR ALL.??And what do we hear coming from the synagogue without walls? ONE TORAH FOR ALL. Way to go Ross, preach it from the house-tops, and with technology preach it globally.

?

? 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

?

CB comment

?

I agree totally and completely with point 5. I would only add that I believe the literal Sukkah that David pitched for the ARK, and the ARK of Testimony is in the Tomb chambers of David. I believe that Jeremiah's gift -?Jer 40:5, was indeed the ARK of the covenant, and the golden alter of incense. Can we prove it? Not yet. But I believe when the evidence is gathered and I have done that Scriptural and historically, that Jeremiah hid these sacred items for this day and time. But to?believe is one thing and find the tomb chambers of king David is another. We will see and perhaps in not to many years or days in the future.?

?

6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


?

CB comment

?

The Sanhedrin is now established - the Aaronic priesthood is known, a high priest can be raised up. I don't think animal sacrifice will be re-established, but I do think a meal offering in thanksgiving to G-D will be most pleasing. I also think G-D will bring both the Rabbinic Jews and the Josephites to the table of fellowship and just as we are listening and hearing each other, I think G-D will require the same from both Judah and Joseph in the hands of Ephraim. Perhaps we on this dialogue are learning now what and how it will occur in the re gathering.?

?

The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.


????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

?

CB comment???

?

I believe MBJ did come and the Romans hung him on a cross. I believe he was human as Adam was human.?He worshipped the only true God, Jn 17:3, even said only G-D is good in the ultimate sense. Now, resurrection was the belief of the Pharisees, but the resurrection of the MBJ - I will leave open for each to be persuaded one way or another in their own mind. 

?

Thanks Hanoch my pal

?

Clyde?

?

?

?

????




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.




Attached Message




From:

YoungBarzel at aol.com



To:

dialogue at rootsoffaith.org



Subject:

[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



Date:

Thu, 1 May 2008 08:56:15 EDT






Boker tov L'Kulchem,

?

????I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.? Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").? 

?

????PLEASE NOTE:? These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').? Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...? I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.? It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

?

????Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

?

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

?

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

?

6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


????The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.


????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

?

????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

?????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

????

????





Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.



_______________________________________________








_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/d94acfef/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 12:57:41 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:57:41 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <812186152-1209665099-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-879667050-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Jeremy,

Not sure what you mean by Daily Digest?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:45:23 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest


I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
? 
Jeremy_______________________________________________


From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Thu May  1 13:19:05 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:19:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <812186152-1209665099-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-879667050-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<812186152-1209665099-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-879667050-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805011119q6e2a5638s35d2eff17f631573@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe a message board?

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 12:57 PM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Hey Jeremy,
>
> Not sure what you mean by Daily Digest?
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>
>
> Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:45:23
> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <To%3Adialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
>
>
> I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of
> individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me).
> I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I
> have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with.
> Help Please!
>
> Jeremy_______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/4a883dd8/attachment.html 

From israel.trekker at gmail.com  Thu May  1 13:43:02 2008
From: israel.trekker at gmail.com (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:43:02 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <066a01c8aba0$400b2b50$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
	<3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl>
	<8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC>
	<026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
	<E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
	<01db01c8ab51$a877bfe0$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<066a01c8aba0$400b2b50$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
Message-ID: <7378d9f70805011143q69591eacj738ef58824171321@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Loy,

I understand and Yah will honor that.  When i realized how my Dad worried
when i travled over here i stopped coming and told Yah i would only come
again when he was gone.  I was my Dad's primary care giver and my presence
with him brought peace to him.  That was more important than my love for
Israel.  The moment he stepped into eternity i knew my future began.  In
looking back on those years i can see so many times His hand of blessing and
provision.

Shalom and strength to you, Loy.

Patty


On 5/1/08, Loy <loyb at prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>  tODAH rABAH,  PATTY,   when she passes MY plan is to move to Israel for
> good.  I lived there 2 yrs in '97-'98 and consider it  my home.   Shalom,
> no time for more now.  Loy LEORAH
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:07 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
>
>
>
> Loy,
>
>
>
> There's great blessing in taking care of your parents.  The Torah, the top
> ten, says if you do this you receive a blessing Ex 20:12 " Honor your father
> and mother that your days may be prolonged in the land which Yah your God
> gives you."  I took care of both of mine for many years and had the
> privilege of being with them at the moment they stepped into eternity.  The
> only thing I would change about those years?I would have done more than I
> did.  I didn't realize until after that it actually carried this blessing.
> Who knows, maybe this is why I get the incredible blessing of being in
> Jerusalem now.
>
>
>
> I'll be praying for your strength, wisdom and JOY in your current journey
> Loy!
>
>
>
> Shalom!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Jessica
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:58 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
>
>
>
> How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at
> 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I
> relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever
> way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and
> said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter,
> she would one day be bathing me".
>
> It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to
> return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies
> and young children, before we can off into the world.
>
> Blessings to your Mum.
>
> And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is
> ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all
> that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these
> wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.
>
> Blessings and Shalom,
>
> Jessica
>
>
>
> I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care
> of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't
> have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the
> ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time
> schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day.
>
>
>
>   love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/0a007509/attachment.html 

From long777 at att.net  Thu May  1 14:57:36 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy Long)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
Message-ID: <78296.65483.qm@web83830.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Daily Digest is an option to just recieve one email a day with all single postings included in the one email. I tried to choose it in my account options but it tells me the administrator has the option disabled. No big deal really, I was just curious about it not being activated. I like the list and want to continue so I will figure something out.

Peace and Blessings

Jeremy



----- Original Message ----
From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: Dialogue <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:57:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

Hey Jeremy,

Not sure what you mean by Daily Digest?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:45:23 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest


I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
  
Jeremy_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9b715b32/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 15:09:33 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 20:09:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <78296.65483.qm@web83830.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <78296.65483.qm@web83830.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <602357804-1209672993-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1030029151-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I'll look into it.  I didn't know that there was a feature like that.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 12:57:36 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest


Daily Digest is an option to just recieve one email a day with all single postings included in the one email. I tried to choose it in my account options but it tells me the administrator has the option disabled. No big deal really, I was just curious about it not being activated. I like the list and want to continue so I will figure something out. 
? 
Peace and Blessings 
? 
Jeremy 


 
----- Original Message ----
From: "carlson_john at bellsouth.net" <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: Dialogue <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 1, 2008 12:57:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

Hey Jeremy,

Not sure what you mean by Daily Digest?

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net <mailto:long777 at att.net> >

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:45:23 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest


I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
? 
Jeremy_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________


From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  1 15:43:45 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:43:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Day of prayer particulars
In-Reply-To: <200805011656.m41Gu2H9005824@mail114c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01c8abcc$0e2a7240$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thank you, Steve, this is very helpful!

Blessings,

Betty/Elisheva

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:56 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Day of prayer particulars

Friends,

Am sending a reminder for us to read Daniel 9 for pointers of what we 
need to pray for, and along what lines we need to pray for mercy for 
ourselves and for our country, and our peoples. Daniel was an 
intercessor, and so are we to intercede for our brothers and sisters 
who do not know what is what. Notice, that Daniel asks for 
forgiveness of the sins of our leaders and our fathers.  This harkens 
back to the Torah, Lev. 26:40, and points to the future, our days, Jer.
14:20.

Here are some sins we need to ask forgiveness for: pride, G-dless 
rationalism and humanism, the unreasonable hatred of racism, the 
holocaust of killing of the unborn,
mindless addictions in hedonism, perversity, moral bankruptcy, 
greed,  general moral bankruptcy, and political liberalism that 
refuses to recognize evil.

Amazingly today it is also Yom Hashoa.  I think this is not a 
coincidence. Please add the remembrance of the martyrs of the 
Holocaust in our days. May the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with 
His strong arm execute justice on the murderers.

Steve

"Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." 

_______________________________________________



From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  1 16:07:59 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:07:59 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS744B0E93F787CF306456ABADB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00ad01c8abcf$6f813da0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thanks, Rick for sharing, and Glenn for the insight you gave your buddy!  I
have come to this over and over with each and every struggle in
understanding, but sometimes it is as a last resort, after I have tried to
work things out myself.gradually I am learning what the "sum of the matter"
really is and it is sinking deeply enough into my being that I can
incorporate it into my life more often.and what a blessing that I when I can
actually find myself living in that realization!

 

Love and Blessings to you on this special day of Yom HaShoah! (And National
Day of Prayer)

 

May we never forget!!!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter

 

Right on the nose as usual, Glenn!  And I thank you, Rick, for sharing it
with us.

 

From: Rick <mailto:rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>  Gozhanskij 

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:58 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter

 

My buddy Glenn pointed that out to me earlier this morning when I was having
my own inner struggles of understanding.




Pat Robbins wrote: 

LOVELY, RICK!!!  That sums it up alright!  ~ Pat

 

From: Rick Gozhanskij <mailto:rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>  

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:49 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The sum of the matter

 

When I don't have the understanding of all these different theories.  In my
simple understanding I can go to this.


Eccl. 12:13 The sum of the matter, when all is said and done: Revere God and
observe His commandments! For this applies to all mankind: 
Eccl. 12:14 that God will call every creature to account for everything
unknown, be it good or bad. The sum of the matter, when all is said and
done: Revere God and observe His commandments! For this applies to all
mankind. 


Rick

  _____  

_______________________________________________








  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/a2b46cae/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu May  1 17:55:59 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: CORNELIUS[Dialogue] something is right
In-Reply-To: <013c01c8ab3f$4b3dcd90$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <91291.36802.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/2e40b6b4/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 20:43:24 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:43:24 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
Message-ID: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>

Hi All!

 

I just heard about this group from Hanoch. Looking forward to discussing.

 

Patty

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/83f00d07/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 20:39:33 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 01:39:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>
References: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>
Message-ID: <176498928-1209692793-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-526346467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Patty!  Welcome.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:43:24 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


Hi All! 
? 
I just heard about this group from Hanoch. Looking forward to discussing. 
? 
Patty _______________________________________________


From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 20:48:05 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:48:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <176498928-1209692793-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-526346467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>
	<176498928-1209692793-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-526346467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <007a01c8abf6$91ca06e0$b55e14a0$@com>

Hi John and All, what's the topic of the evening?

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:40 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

Hey Patty!  Welcome.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:43:24 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


Hi All! 
? 
I just heard about this group from Hanoch. Looking forward to discussing. 
? 
Patty _______________________________________________





From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 20:50:28 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:50:28 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
Message-ID: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)
 
    It's great to have you as part of this  group!  For those of you who 
haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet  - she is probably the HIGHEST 
ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very  talented singer, and I am certain 
that she will do GREAT things in getting this  whole 'movement' on the map!
 
    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a  bit about your 'journey,' and 
what's brought you to where you are now -  spiritually speaking.  Not tonight if 
you can't - but soon,  okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for me,  
okay?!
 
    Baruch Haba  - Welcome!
 
    Your  pal,            
 
Hanoch 

the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/6de6f768/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  1 20:44:10 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 01:44:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <8CA79CC5E274ABB-FB4-25F8@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com>
References: <bbf.2b752b9f.354b3126@aol.com><8CA79CC5E274ABB-FB4-25F8@WEBMAIL-MB10.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1392121223-1209693069-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-919679395-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Patty,

This is the last email I could find in the main topical string.  Jump in.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com

Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 14:00:27 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Hey Clyde - 
? 
???? Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses to what I wrote.? Whether you and I ultimately agree on some, or all things (either totally, or various points), isn't the central issue here.? The fact that we've been able to share our views, on such "thorny" theological topics, and done so while fully respecting and acknowledging each other, IS the central issue!? THIS indeed IS 'Dialogue,' which (in my humble opinion) will truly serve to have us (individually and collectively), come closer to HaShem, and HIS will.? 
 
 ??? I'd love to write more right now....but the 'crisis du jure' beckons....today, work has descended into Dante's 5th level, and is dropping fast........
 
 ??? Very Best regards,
 
 ?????????????? Your pal in the Big Apple,
 ????????????????????????? Hanoch
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:43 am
 Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
 
 
Hey Hanoch: 
? 
Thank you for outlining these Jewish beliefs. In order you wrote: 
? 
?1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28). 
? 
CB comment: 
? 
Hanoch, I believe the first statement that the MBD will oversee the rebuilding of the third Temple. I do not think the third Temple will be built before the MBD comes. For that reason I believe the Tabernacle David pitched for the ARK not only exists, but will be discovered, and maybe sooner than later.? 
? 
?2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
 
? 
CB comment 
? 
I believe the second point as well, but I would add a two-step?phase. That is, I think HaShem will first bring back a remnant of each of the tribes, and then the MBD when he comes??will gather a great multitude that will supercede the multitude who came out of Egypt. I think the great moment that will break forth in this generation is the return of HaShem to Zion, and his glorious presence in the Kavod. [cloud] And?I believe HaShem will speak out of the cloud in the Tabernacle of David - and then HaShem will restore the truth in ways we can only imagine until it happens. Wow - did I say that? 
? 
?3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
 
? 
CB comment???? 
? 
I believe ever word in point 3, and of course Jesus/Yeshua fulfilled none of this. However, if Christian scholars?would pay attention to the Jewish sages they would know that before a MBD will appear, a MBJ will come or has come on the scene, to be killed. And I think that Jesus/Yeshua as a suffering servant did fulfill that role. I do believe Jesus/Yeshua did offer one time and one time only himself as king of the Jews Zech 9:9. But as a prophet like Moses, Jeremiah, and other prophets, nationally the leadership would not receive him, but individually many did believe him.? Now, this is just my belief and I respect any belief that believes otherwise.? 
? 
4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).? 
? 
CB comment 
? 
Again, I believe every word in point 4. I also believe though that MBD will be king under the G-D of Israel who is King of Kings. As the King under the King of Kings I believe Jesus/Yeshua will lead all mankind to worship the only true G-D of Israel - AND THERE WIIL BE ONE TORAH FOR ALL.??And what do we hear coming from the synagogue without walls? ONE TORAH FOR ALL. Way to go Ross, preach it from the house-tops, and with technology preach it globally. 
? 
? 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
? 
CB comment 
? 
I agree totally and completely with point 5. I would only add that I believe the literal Sukkah that David pitched for the ARK, and the ARK of Testimony is in the Tomb chambers of David. I believe that Jeremiah's gift -?Jer 40:5, was indeed the ARK of the covenant, and the golden alter of incense. Can we prove it? Not yet. But I believe when the evidence is gathered and I have done that Scriptural and historically, that Jeremiah hid these sacred items for this day and time. But to?believe is one thing and find the tomb chambers of king David is another. We will see and perhaps in not to many years or days in the future.? 
? 
6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 
? 
CB comment 
? 
The Sanhedrin is now established - the Aaronic priesthood is known, a high priest can be raised up. I don't think animal sacrifice will be re-established, but I do think a meal offering in thanksgiving to G-D will be most pleasing. I also think G-D will bring both the Rabbinic Jews and the Josephites to the table of fellowship and just as we are listening and hearing each other, I think G-D will require the same from both Judah and Joseph in the hands of Ephraim. Perhaps we on this dialogue are learning now what and how it will occur in the re gathering.? 
? 
The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
 
????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
? 
CB comment??? 
? 
I believe MBJ did come and the Romans hung him on a cross. I believe he was human as Adam was human.?He worshipped the only true God, Jn 17:3, even said only G-D is good in the ultimate sense. Now, resurrection was the belief of the Pharisees, but the resurrection of the MBJ - I will leave open for each to be persuaded one way or another in their own mind. 
? 
Thanks Hanoch my pal 
? 
Clyde? 
? 
? 
? 
???? 
 
 
 
 
----------------
 Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
 
 
Attached Message 
 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
 Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:56:15 EDT 
 
Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
? 
????I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.? Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").? 
? 
????PLEASE NOTE:? These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').? Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...? I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.? It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
? 
????Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
? 
What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
 
 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
 
 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
 
 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
 
 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
? 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
? 
6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 

 ????The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
 
????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
? 
????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
?????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
 Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
???? 
????
 
 
 
 
 
----------------
 Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
_______________________________________________ 
 
_______________________________________________ 

----------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________


From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  1 20:56:00 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:26:00 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>
References: <006401c8abf5$eb13f4f0$c13bded0$@com>
Message-ID: <6157C9299B314979B114A7A7B04410A3@JessicaPC>

Hello Patty and welcome. Are you also a New Yorker? I am in Australia. It's a fabulous group, so glad you can join us.
Shalom
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:13 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


  Hi All!

   

  I just heard about this group from Hanoch. Looking forward to discussing.

   

  Patty



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/c92859bf/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 20:56:18 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:56:18 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <c99.24e6f821.354bcec2@aol.com>

Hey Patty,
 
    Yeah, we decided to tackle  all the major theological issues this 
week....and by next week  we can take care of the 'World Peace' or 'Global Warming' 
stuff.....   :-)   Only teasing, of course...would love to have your input on 
any,  or all of it.
 
    Best regards,
            Hanoch 
the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know  Rav Kahane was right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/cf32d2e0/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 20:59:05 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 21:59:05 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
Message-ID: <cb5.2fc9613b.354bcf69@aol.com>

Shalom Jessica - 
 
    So, how's Friday been so far?  I  wanted to know what we (lagging so many 
hours behind you..) have to look forward  to?  :-)  I bet your weather varies 
from beautiful, to  gorgeous...sighhhh....yes, I am envious!
 
    Best  regards,            
 
Hanoch 

the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know  Rav Kahane was right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/dd5ca2b8/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 21:18:10 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:18:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>

Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a
nutshell:

 

Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends.
The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl
Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

 

Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young,
my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very
severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left
for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were
off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of
his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day,
when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together".
That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to
peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an
onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell
you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we
began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called
the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and
took some Hebrew classes.

 

Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the
internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name
Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to
see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know
about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at
the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my
surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey
and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we
still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when
we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there".
I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in
my family tree.

 

In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and
tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these
things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became
closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios.
We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom
for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being
drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was
actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

 

Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

 

    It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who
haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST
ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am
certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on
the map!

 

    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and
what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight
if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for
me, okay?!

 

    Baruch Haba - Welcome!

 

    Your pal,            

    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/88670f4f/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 21:26:35 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:26:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <c99.24e6f821.354bcec2@aol.com>
References: <c99.24e6f821.354bcec2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c101c8abfb$f324df00$d96e9d00$@com>

Hi again! Well, since you are tackling ALL major theological issues, I would
like to "bounce" this one off  you. I have recently been studying the
concept of Gebirah in the dynasties of Ancient Israel. Gebirah is a term
that has been interpreted as Queen, Great Lady, Queen Mother and Consort. I
would like to propose the idea of a King AND Queen Messiah. There have been
many scholars writing on the topic of Two Messiahs and maybe even three. I
would like to present a renewed paradigm of the Three Messiah Theory - that
of the King and Queen, and the Prophet. If anyone is interested in this,
please e-mail me at: ptyler at aac-usa.com. I would be more than happy to
discuss this and send reference material. The role of the woman has been
written out of the Bible, but she has never left.

 

Blessing to All,

Patty 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Hey Patty,

 

    Yeah, we decided to tackle all the major theological issues this
week....and by next week we can take care of the 'World Peace' or 'Global
Warming' stuff.....  :-)   Only teasing, of course...would love to have your
input on any, or all of it.

 

    Best regards,

            Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/9800fc19/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 21:27:49 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:27:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>
	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>
	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS505985DECD152805965D9BADA0@phx.gbl>

Fabulous, Patty!!!!!  PLEASE DO POST YOUR AND DAN'S PHOTOS ON ROSS'S WEBSITE!  He has a place on there so that we can all put a name to the face on his site and we NEED your photos!  I was in Charlotte, but I never got to speak to you.  Am so glad you are joining the Dialogue.  It's really a worthwhile endeavor and the people on it are terrific!  Am looking so forward to hearing your views on the many and varied topics discussed.  

Love to you both,

Pat


From: Patty 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:18 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a nutshell:

 

Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends. The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

 

Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young, my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day, when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together". That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and took some Hebrew classes.

 

Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there". I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in my family tree.

 

In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios. We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

 

Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

 

    It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on the map!

 

    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for me, okay?!

 

    Baruch Haba - Welcome!

 

    Your pal,            

    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/657f07ab/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 21:29:44 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:29:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS505985DECD152805965D9BADA0@phx.gbl>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
	<BLU125-DS505985DECD152805965D9BADA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00d201c8abfc$63ac3e80$2b04bb80$@com>

Hi Pat, I am sorry that we did not get a chance to talk. I would love to
hear all about you!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Fabulous, Patty!!!!!  PLEASE DO POST YOUR AND DAN'S PHOTOS ON ROSS'S
WEBSITE!  He has a place on there so that we can all put a name to the face
on his site and we NEED your photos!  I was in Charlotte, but I never got to
speak to you.  Am so glad you are joining the Dialogue.  It's really a
worthwhile endeavor and the people on it are terrific!  Am looking so
forward to hearing your views on the many and varied topics discussed.  

 

Love to you both,

 

Pat

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:18 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a
nutshell:

 

Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends.
The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl
Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

 

Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young,
my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very
severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left
for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were
off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of
his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day,
when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together".
That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to
peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an
onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell
you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we
began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called
the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and
took some Hebrew classes.

 

Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the
internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name
Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to
see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know
about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at
the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my
surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey
and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we
still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when
we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there".
I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in
my family tree.

 

In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and
tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these
things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became
closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios.
We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom
for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being
drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was
actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

 

Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

 

    It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who
haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST
ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am
certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on
the map!

 

    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and
what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight
if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for
me, okay?!

 

    Baruch Haba - Welcome!

 

    Your pal,            

    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 

 

  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/cc04c1cc/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  1 21:29:51 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:59:51 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6435B38F183948B2A72536188391D1DC@JessicaPC>

Hello Hanoch,
Thank you so much for all your wonderful contributions. 
Please forgive me if I may seem somewhat 'jealous' in my correcting you in regard to your point number 2 below, where you state that :  2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6). My reading of the chapter indicates that HaShem is speaking to the WHOLE HOUSE OF YACOV, not only to the JEWS. I love your people Hanoch, without your ancestors we would not have the true scriptures that we are here discussing today. We, the scattered ones, would not now be reading these things and falling on our faces before HaShem and reaching out to reconnect with you, our loving cousin, if the Jews had not put a fence around Torah and preserved HaShem's Tree of Life.
I guess what I'm saying is: "please don't forget about us". I know there is 2000 years of pain and suffering that you carry in your heart, but Hanoch we are repenting and returning and we do so wish to be united with you. I really feel it is important, even if it seems trivial, to identify the hidden flaws in our thinking. I stand to be corrected on any points that I put forward.
Love and blessings,
Jessica


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:26 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Boker tov L'Kulchem,

      I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

      PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

      Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

  What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

  1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

  2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

  3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

  4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

  5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

  6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

      The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

          Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                   Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
      
      






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/7569cf5a/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  1 21:39:14 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:09:14 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <cb5.2fc9613b.354bcf69@aol.com>
References: <cb5.2fc9613b.354bcf69@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4F42A5F5391C44A786777228503125F2@JessicaPC>

Darling Hanoch,
Don't be envious of our weather, it's probably no different to what you experience - except that the air over here is pretty clean because Adelaide is a much smaller city than New York, and being right on the coast is cleared easily by the sea breezes. 
Today, being in the middle of autumn, it is sunny, but cool. There is a light breeze coming in from the ocean and there are intermittent showers. The "beautiful one day gorgeous the next" quote refers to Queensland where I lived until last year when I relocated south. Now THAT'S the place to be at this time of year. 
Friday is my day for preparing for Shabbat, as it is for everyone else in the Dialogue.  So far all is normal, with one exception - now that I am involved with you lot I find less time available to do my preparation.........this is just too addictive. I breath a sigh of relief when you guys toddle off to bed....just kidding - I love you all.
Jessica


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


  Shalom Jessica - 

      So, how's Friday been so far?  I wanted to know what we (lagging so many hours behind you..) have to look forward to?  :-)  I bet your weather varies from beautiful, to gorgeous...sighhhh....yes, I am envious!

      Best regards,            
          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/1b85d93c/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 21:39:59 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:39:59 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <6435B38F183948B2A72536188391D1DC@JessicaPC>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
	<6435B38F183948B2A72536188391D1DC@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <00e301c8abfd$d2568420$77038c60$@com>

Hi All,

 

Sorry for this red line on the left. I understand that Messiah is a "role"
and not a person per say. I believe that Yeshua set the wheels of these
goals in motion. Do you realize that because of him millions (maybe
billions) of people have the Torah in their homes, attached to their NT?
They may not realize it yet, but they will.  As to the gathering of the
Tribes, is it not because of this Torah in our homes now that we are coming
to believe in YHWH and His Torah? And in Israel as his chosen Nation? All of
this WILL LEAD TO points #1, 3 5 and 6. This is a work in progress.

 

Patty

 

 

 

Boker tov L'Kulchem,

 

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as
it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always
defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com
and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to
rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

 

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of
the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, '
BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult
anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of
the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.
It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am
coming from....

 

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

 

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all
hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah
2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

 

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the
Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the
Davidic Dynasty).

 

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are
some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human
form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being
above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews
believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His
creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

 

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

    

    






  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/41c769d6/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  1 21:43:29 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:13:29 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>
	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
Message-ID: <187CCDB349E54653AD4655FE1281DA66@JessicaPC>

Patty, what an amazing story, thank you so much for sharing it with us.
Blessings
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:48 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


  Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a nutshell:

   

  Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends. The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

   

  Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young, my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day, when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together". That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and took some Hebrew classes.

   

  Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there". I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in my family tree.

   

  In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios. We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

   

  Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

   

  Patty

   

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

   

  Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

   

      It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on the map!

   

      Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for me, okay?!

   

      Baruch Haba - Welcome!

   

      Your pal,            

      Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

   






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/9539af70/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  1 21:48:05 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:48:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <187CCDB349E54653AD4655FE1281DA66@JessicaPC>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com>
	<187CCDB349E54653AD4655FE1281DA66@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <00fa01c8abfe$f4261b00$dc725100$@com>

Wow, someone read all of that? Hi Jessica, I would love to hear YOUR story!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Patty, what an amazing story, thank you so much for sharing it with us.

Blessings

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:48 AM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a
nutshell:

 

Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends.
The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl
Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

 

Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young,
my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very
severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left
for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were
off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of
his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day,
when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together".
That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to
peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an
onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell
you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we
began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called
the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and
took some Hebrew classes.

 

Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the
internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name
Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to
see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know
about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at
the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my
surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey
and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we
still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when
we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there".
I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in
my family tree.

 

In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and
tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these
things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became
closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios.
We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom
for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being
drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was
actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

 

Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

 

    It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who
haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST
ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am
certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on
the map!

 

    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and
what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight
if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for
me, okay?!

 

    Baruch Haba - Welcome!

 

    Your pal,            

    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 

 


  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/bf90281a/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 21:52:29 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:52:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com><BLU125-DS505985DECD152805965D9BADA0@phx.gbl>
	<00d201c8abfc$63ac3e80$2b04bb80$@com>
References: <c7b.2effad42.354bcd64@aol.com>	<00aa01c8abfa$c5e0d900$51a28b00$@com><BLU125-DS505985DECD152805965D9BADA0@phx.gbl>
	<00d201c8abfc$63ac3e80$2b04bb80$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS260CD63E2B0590204E4D3BADA0@phx.gbl>

Will do so later, Patty.  I am a Convert to Judaism, also consider myself an Ephraimite.  Came out of the Church almost 20 years ago.  I need to get to sleep soon as I have a very long day tomorrow, so I'll be signing off in just a few.  However, your mention of gebirah has me wondering if it is the feminine form of gibor, which means "warrior."  If so, there may be a connection to Jer. 31:21 (31:22 in KJV).  For many years I have puzzled over that verse.   Though in English it says, "......the L-RD has created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man," in the Hebrew it says, "...nekevah (feminine) will compass gibor (warrior)."   If the word your are researching, "gebirah" is the feminine of "gibor," there may be some kind of tie-in that could offer a clue to that verse.  Seems like there would just about have to be a connection to the two words, since the letters are the same: gimel, beit, raysh - with a hay on the end of your word.

Wish it were not so, but I HAVE to sign off and go to sleep now,

My love to you,

Pat


From: Patty 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


Hi Pat, I am sorry that we did not get a chance to talk. I would love to hear all about you!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:28 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Fabulous, Patty!!!!!  PLEASE DO POST YOUR AND DAN'S PHOTOS ON ROSS'S WEBSITE!  He has a place on there so that we can all put a name to the face on his site and we NEED your photos!  I was in Charlotte, but I never got to speak to you.  Am so glad you are joining the Dialogue.  It's really a worthwhile endeavor and the people on it are terrific!  Am looking so forward to hearing your views on the many and varied topics discussed.  

 

Love to you both,

 

Pat

 

From: Patty 

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:18 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Wow, Hanoch - I hope I can live up to this, you are way too kind! In a nutshell:

 

Born 1960 (don't tell anyone) in a Chicago suburb. Adopted by the Townsends. The only record I had was a newspaper clipping that named me Baby Girl Tabor.  So you can only guess how I got to know James! 

 

Getting back to the early years, my adopted parents died when I was young, my mom died of cancer when I was 10 (she was only 40) and my dad was a very severe alcoholic. When I was 16 I packed a suitcase, got on a bus and left for NY where I met Dave. I auditioned as a singer in his band and we were off to Los Angeles to become "rock stars". We got married in LA. I knew of his coming out of the RCC, but he never pushed religion on me. Then one day, when we were still in LA, I said to him, "Let's read the Bible together". That was the beginning of our journey. As we walked the path, we began to peel away the Hellenistic aspects of the Christian faith like it were an onion. We never celebrated one Xmas, Easter or Halloween, and let me tell you it was not easy. We also never believed in the trinity doctrine. Then we began to learn of the True Sabbath and YHWH's Holy Days (wrongfully called the Jews' Holydays) and the food laws. We learned of the Tetragrammaton and took some Hebrew classes.

 

Around this same time, in the early 1990's, before the advent of the internet, I was "called" to find my roots. I was fascinated by the name Tabor and a possible connection to the Mt. Tabor of Israel. I happened to see James on TV and thought - wow - if there was ever a guy who would know about the name Tabor and Mt. Tabor, it would be him. So I gave him a call at the university. I was expecting him to tell me to "get lost", but, to my surprise, he was extremely kind and helpful. I told him about our journey and he sent us the Abrahamic Faith - a timeless piece of literature that we still give to those asking how we believe.  Dave and I were astounded when we read it - we came to realize that there were others like us "out there". I was drawn to Israel and the Torah. I have also found many Jewish names in my family tree.

 

In the late 1990s - early 2000s I went through many personal trials and tribulations, coming away "unscathed"! Anyone interested in discussing these things can e-mail me personally at: ptyler at aac-usa.com.  Dave and I became closer than ever, started playing music again and opened TylerLand Studios. We own our own business in NY and also have a 501c3 org. called Storeroom for the Needy, where we give money and/or goods to the needy.  We are being drawn ever closer to Israel and the Torah. This last UIWU meeting was actually our first. We have been forever blessed by meeting all of you! 

 

Sorry if this was too long, but you DID ask!!

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty

 

Well Shalom Patty!! :-)

 

    It's great to have you as part of this group!  For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting Patty yet - she is probably the HIGHEST ENERGY person I have ever met!!  She's a very talented singer, and I am certain that she will do GREAT things in getting this whole 'movement' on the map!

 

    Okay Patty, now you have to tell us a bit about your 'journey,' and what's brought you to where you are now - spiritually speaking.  Not tonight if you can't - but soon, okay?    :-) Make sure to give Dave a BIG hug for me, okay?!

 

    Baruch Haba - Welcome!

 

    Your pal,            

    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/8d3029b4/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  1 21:55:05 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:55:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
In-Reply-To: <cb5.2fc9613b.354bcf69@aol.com>
	<4F42A5F5391C44A786777228503125F2@JessicaPC>
References: <cb5.2fc9613b.354bcf69@aol.com>
	<4F42A5F5391C44A786777228503125F2@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6E2E4693F20C9DFDBD150BADA0@phx.gbl>

And we love you too.  Goodnight, Jessica,  I'm toddling off now!!!!  ~ Pat


From: Jessica 
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:39 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


Darling Hanoch,
Don't be envious of our weather, it's probably no different to what you experience - except that the air over here is pretty clean because Adelaide is a much smaller city than New York, and being right on the coast is cleared easily by the sea breezes. 
Today, being in the middle of autumn, it is sunny, but cool. There is a light breeze coming in from the ocean and there are intermittent showers. The "beautiful one day gorgeous the next" quote refers to Queensland where I lived until last year when I relocated south. Now THAT'S the place to be at this time of year. 
Friday is my day for preparing for Shabbat, as it is for everyone else in the Dialogue.  So far all is normal, with one exception - now that I am involved with you lot I find less time available to do my preparation.........this is just too addictive. I breath a sigh of relief when you guys toddle off to bed....just kidding - I love you all.
Jessica


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:29 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty


  Shalom Jessica - 

      So, how's Friday been so far?  I wanted to know what we (lagging so many hours behind you..) have to look forward to?  :-)  I bet your weather varies from beautiful, to gorgeous...sighhhh....yes, I am envious!

      Best regards,            
          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/8ada2372/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 22:03:02 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:03:02 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shalom from Patty
Message-ID: <d14.2381ca46.354bde66@aol.com>

Hey Patty,
 
    Now, it's MY turn to say 'WOW!'   That is some saga....thank you so very 
much for sharing that.  Although we  don't share the same last name, we did 
share having alcoholic fathers, so I gave  a big 'sighhh' when I got to that 
part.  
 
    You know, as I read the 'stories' and  'sagas' of you folks -  my 
cousins, for whom I have yearned and prayed for  (for years..), I am struck by the 
sacrifices each and every single one of you  have made, and is making, to lead a 
'Torah Lifestyle.'  I am humbled in  your presence, and it inspires me beyond 
description...
 
    Patty - you ROCK!!!   :-)
 
    Your  pal,            
 
Hanoch 

the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know  Rav Kahane was right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/cb6d8609/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 22:06:58 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:06:58 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <c41.3389569a.354bdf52@aol.com>

Hey Patty - 
 
    I'm up for it - please send  me the material - I'd love to see it!!  I 
totally agree,  BTW...regarding the downplaying of women, and their role 
throughout history  (notice, that it's 'his' 'story').  You know, I too could have 
been a Rock  Star....I just never had any talent.....a real pity.....LOL   :-)
 
    Toda!    
 
Hanoch 

the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/3fda553c/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  1 22:13:42 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:13:42 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <c40.33f40524.354be0e6@aol.com>

Shalom Jessica,
 
    You are TOTALLY correct, and that's  what I get for 'cutting and pasting' 
(without editing it myself..) from websites  (AISH.com, in this particular 
case).  I apologize, and assure you that it  was totally inadvertent - they had 
done it, but I copied it without first  revising it.  As they say here in New 
York, "My Bad" - I'm really very  sorry for the impression it conveyed.
 
    Yes, ALL of HaShem's children are to  come home...without a doubt!!  And 
actually, since Judah's already gotten  the head start, now we have to make 
sure our cousins know where they need to go,  too!  :-)
 
    Thanks very much for your note, and  especially the spirit behind it!  :-)
 
    B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love  of Judah & Israel),
              
Hanoch 

the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know  Rav Kahane was right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/56eb7c23/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Thu May  1 22:52:44 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 22:52:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin><3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl><8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC><026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
	<E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <F5DB4B2BCB55413B9AD4188812821498@sherryPC>

Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,
I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.
Thank you so much,
Love and Blessings,
Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 
  It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.
  Blessings to your Mum.
  And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.
  Blessings and Shalom,
  Jessica

  I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

    love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/65dc9a48/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  1 23:13:04 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:43:04 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <F5DB4B2BCB55413B9AD4188812821498@sherryPC>
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin><3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl><8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC><026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325><E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC>
	<F5DB4B2BCB55413B9AD4188812821498@sherryPC>
Message-ID: <2EC7B5A047434740A2253B7152437A61@JessicaPC>

Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do Sherry.
Love from your sister over the ocean,
Jessica
 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: sherry cole 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,
  I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.
  Thank you so much,
  Love and Blessings,
  Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Jessica 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


    How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 
    It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.
    Blessings to your Mum.
    And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.
    Blessings and Shalom,
    Jessica

    I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

      love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    No virus found in this incoming message.
    Checked by AVG. 
    Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/ac966ad8/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri May  2 00:29:11 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 00:29:11 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Day of prayer particulars
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c8abcc$0e2a7240$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <200805011656.m41Gu2H9005824@mail114c25.carrierzone.com>
	<00ab01c8abcc$0e2a7240$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805012229l3b728260l55eaeb7738f53ed2@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, thank you, Steve!

Kim

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

> Thank you, Steve, this is very helpful!
>
> Blessings,
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:56 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] Day of prayer particulars
>
> Friends,
>
> Am sending a reminder for us to read Daniel 9 for pointers of what we
> need to pray for, and along what lines we need to pray for mercy for
> ourselves and for our country, and our peoples. Daniel was an
> intercessor, and so are we to intercede for our brothers and sisters
> who do not know what is what. Notice, that Daniel asks for
> forgiveness of the sins of our leaders and our fathers.  This harkens
> back to the Torah, Lev. 26:40, and points to the future, our days, Jer.
> 14:20.
>
> Here are some sins we need to ask forgiveness for: pride, G-dless
> rationalism and humanism, the unreasonable hatred of racism, the
> holocaust of killing of the unborn,
> mindless addictions in hedonism, perversity, moral bankruptcy,
> greed,  general moral bankruptcy, and political liberalism that
> refuses to recognize evil.
>
> Amazingly today it is also Yom Hashoa.  I think this is not a
> coincidence. Please add the remembrance of the martyrs of the
> Holocaust in our days. May the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, with
> His strong arm execute justice on the murderers.
>
> Steve
>
> "Only prayer, Torah and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel."
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/359742ad/attachment.html 

From israel.trekker at gmail.com  Fri May  2 02:43:33 2008
From: israel.trekker at gmail.com (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:43:33 +0300
Subject: Re [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
In-Reply-To: <bef.28ff01e4.354b1082@aol.com>
References: <bef.28ff01e4.354b1082@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7378d9f70805020043pb3b4be3wbede6eeeeb93150f@mail.gmail.com>

Hey y'all,



I sent this last night (my time) on this subject but it hasn't shown up in
the dialogue so I'm sending it again.  Hope it doesn't show up twice.



Due to the questions of Hanoch and Steve I directed this particularly to
them.



I've been trying to follow all the chatter on this topic and want to share
some thoughts.  You two had questions:  Steve?"if Jesus was sent to the
"lost sheep of the house of Israel," why was he sent there?  What was he
supposed to do for/to them? Has he gathered them?   Will he yet gather them?

And Hanoch? And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of
Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can
someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)



Here's my quick (ok it ended up not too quick!) summary and understanding?as
of this moment anyway.



I didn't grow up gong to church, I only stepped into it in the mid 80s so I
don't come with a lot of church baggage.  Since my first trip to Israel in
94 I haven't know who I was.  If "Jesus" is the Messiah why don't we look
like/act like/follow the Torah like Judah?  Without going into a lot of
detail I'll just say that since 94 I have gone through all the gyrations
(and probably more) I see on this dialogue.  I have had the time in the last
couple of years to sit with Yah and see what He wants to teach me and what
am I therefore supposed to do.  At the get-go let me say I'm a "pan
theologist!"  It's all going to pan out just like Yah wants it to and I
certainly don't understand everything.  In fact the more I seemingly learn
the more I know I don't know anything.  But, I need to be faithful to what
He teaches me and leads me to do while being accepting of where others are.
Two things I do know:  God is God, and I am NOT!  I believe like John Hulley
and Yair Davidy, that God?and only God?is going to bring Judah and Ephraim
to a higher level of understanding of Him and we will not look like either
Judah or Ephraim but He will bring us to His truth which is not either of
what we see today.



So, why was Yeshua (not the contorted Greco Roman "Jesus"-- hope that
doesn't offend anyone) sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and how
does his death unite the Northern Tribes and then with Judah?  I'll share
what I have in the last months learned and found absolutely fascinating?I
hope I can do this clearly from the teaching I received this from!  A lot of
this is direct quoting from the teaching I received on this subject and not
my own words.



Remember Yah had made an eternal promise to the patriarchs and to the whole
nation of Israel through Moses that all Israel (all 12 Tribes) would be
called by His Name and be planted in Israel.  His beloved BRIDE!  But due to
the severe, repeated breaking of the covenant God issued the Northern tribes
a certificate of divorce (Isaiah 50:1-2/Jeremiah 3:8).  That's a BIG problem
for God to re-assemble as His word states.  Why?  Because even God obeys His
Word.  Look at D'varim 24:1-4 and see what is says about divorce.  If a man
gives his wife a divorce and she becomes another man's wife and that husband
turns her out and gives her a divorce or if he dies, she can NOT return to
the first husband!  So what does this mean for the Northern tribes?  She's
been given a divorce by God for joining herself with false gods and she has
become "married" to them.  By the Word of God, she can not again be joined
to God, her first husband.  So God has a big problem, how is He going to
fulfill His word to re-unit all the tribes and they becoming His bride?  Its
been explained to me that in Hosea 2:16-19 when it says:  *"I will
betrothyou to Me forever; yes I will
betroth you to Me in Righteousness and in justice, in Loving-kindness and in
compassion and I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.  Then you will know
YHWH."*  The Hebrew word for betrothed is "aras" the word for an engagement
to a *new* marriage relationship.  Why would He use this word for betrothal
if the subject of the prophecy is already married to Him?   Flipping over to
Romans 7:1 *"Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who
know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he
lives?"*  The principle is that a law is only valid when there are people
who are alive and contracted to live by that law, because no law has
jurisdiction over a spiritually or physically dead person.  Romans 7:2 *"For
the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if
her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband"* ie,
*if she's widowed she is then made free concerning the law of the marriage
bond.*  *With the death of her husband she can become attached to another
man*.  Romans 7:3 *"So then if, while her husband is living she is joined to
another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she
is free from the law so that she is not a adulteress, though she is joined
to another man."*  Meaning, if a woman has a living husband but she attaches
herself to another man while still married, she is call an adulterer, and is
guilty of breaking the marriage bond.  But, if he (first husband) dies, she
is freed from the legal aspects of the marriage and is no longer considered
an adultery though can carry that stigma.



So what does all this mean?  Through the body of Yeshua, which represents
the written Law of Moses Yeshua's death liberated her (Nothern Tribes) from
the Torah's divorce judgment.  Through the physical body (the person of
Yeshua) judgment was diverted and replaced with mercy in hoping that Israel
will recognize the exchange and reconnect to YHWH and His covenant promise.
He did it to Israel because of promises YHWH made to our Fathers proving
that YHWH is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19).  YHWH
accomplished through His appointed agent and mediator Yeshua a remarkable
exchange of a life for a life and this is the true mystery of the gospel
Yochanan 15:13 *"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his
life for his friend.  You are My friends, if you do what I command you."*



How does this reunite the Tribes?  Well, it allows us "Yankees" (dang I hate
saying that!) Northern tribes people a way back into the covenant that we
lost when we were issued our divorce.  And, ok, it's a given that we've
still had lots of junk come in, distortions, and outright lies no doubt, but
the fact remains here in the end of days we are finding our way BACK to
Torah and desiring to be reunited with our "Dixie" brothers of the southern
kingdom.  And too even some of the most revered sages have said that Messiah
Ben Yosef must come to bring the Northern tribes back before Messiah Ben
David can come and take up His reign.



Do I completely understand all the above ? not exactly ? but it sure makes a
lot of scripture sense to me.  And I'm just learning as I go . . .  and wow!
It's getting late here at the center of the world so y'all chat away while I
prepare to have a nice sleep!



Shalom y'all,

Patty


On 5/1/08, CBrown4465 at aol.com <CBrown4465 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>  In a message dated 4/30/2008 7:57:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> eliasaph at uniteourheart.com writes:
>
> Notice, that Caiaphas' saying ends here. What follows is John's
> commentary.  Even I assumed that this was said by Caiphas, but it was
> actually written by John or whoever wrote the Gospel of John.
>
>  *51* <http://bible.cc/john/11-51.htm> And this he said not of himself,
> but being chief priest of that year, he did prophesy that Jesus was about to
> die for the nation, *52* <http://bible.cc/john/11-52.htm> and not for the
> nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered
> abroad, *he may gather together into one.* *53*<http://bible.cc/john/11-53.htm>From that day, therefore, they took counsel together that they may kill him;
>
> (John, 11:47-53 Young's literal translation )
>
> Dear ones, I am moved and humbled by the wonderful spirit and cooperation
> of so many truth seekers dialoguing together, listening to each other in
> meekness and love for one another. It blows me away and I can only attribute
> it to the Holy Spirit of the living G-D. As one simple answer of why Jesus
> had to die, it seems to me is so we can experience the very think that is
> happening on this dialogue. For me and perhaps for each of you, G-D is the
> redeemer and savior, so it becomes the question of what method G-D uses to
> redeem and save? I find it externally difficult to comprehend in these
> modern days how the sacrifice and blood from a lamb, goat, or bullock, or
> how the ashes from a red heifer cleanses. But in the ancient cultures these
> atonements surly made sense to them.
>
> It seems that G-D bent down to met human kind where they lived in their
> cultures and belief, In some way the fact that Moses stood in the gap on
> behalf of the children of Israel kept them from being destroyed completely.
> Perhaps one answer to the question we are wrestling with takes us all the
> way back to the beginning. One man as it was said brought sin into the
> world. And then there is the seed of the woman Ge 3:15, that would bruise
> the head of the serpent, and perhaps take away the headship that Adam and
> Eve yielded to. And then as Adam and Eve lost access to the tree of eternal
> life, all mankind lost eternal life.
>
> It seems it was in the purpose of G-D that a son of Adam, a son of the man
> Adam, would have to come complexly human as Adam was human and run G-D's
> program through again, and this tine get it right. Now that makes sense to
> me, and perhaps as Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, Jesus,
> but not only Jesus, but all of the Jewish martyrs were stranding in the gap
> upholding the truth as well. But then what was unique about Jesus standing
> in the gap for mankind above any other righteous soul?  And then how did the
> death of Jesus by taking the curse of death through sin upon the cross open
> the way for G-D to gather together all of his children scattered abroad as
> one? And so, it seems a last Adam was needed fully human as Adam was, and
> used by G-D to reverse the curse from the first Adam.
>
> G-D as redeemer and savior used Jesus' death as the method through which
> he could redeem all in the first Adam. But then it says if Jesus did not
> rise from the dead we are all still in our sins. It then becomes a matter if
> he did rise, then if we walk as he walked in the holy and righteous
> commandments of G-D in character in holiness we are becoming like our Father
> in heaven. But then that still does not answer our question, how did the
> death of Jesus open up the way for G-D to redeem mankind? If the first Adam
> put us into the fix that all mankind is in, it does make sense that it took
> a last Adam as the son of Adam to get us out of the fix we were in. In any
> case lets stay with it until G-D gives us clarity and I think if we continue
> to listen to one another, through someone on this list G-D will give us the
> light to understand.
>
> Clyde
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL
> Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851>.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:56:36 -0700
> Subject: Re: Re [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
> Addenda:
>
> Please pray about these questions and wrestlings, maybe HaShem will reveal
> to us the secrets here....... He says that the secret things belong to Him,
> Deut. 29:29.  Right before that it says: "And the LORD rooted them out of
> their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them
> *into another land,* as it is this day."  Deut:29:28 KJV)  The secret of
> that was revealed to us,  for it is us who have been cast into another land,
> or as an alternate translation could say:  "*into another land found
> later," *i.e. America, Australia/ Sinim, New Zealand.
>
> At 07:42 PM 4/30/2008, you wrote:
>
> Gang,
> Some suggestions:
> Here is some clarification to keep in mind on what actually was said, by
> whom.  This is important, for we can easily read a lot of assumption into a
> statement or group of statements and tie them together for a particular
> conclusion. Of course we give benefit of doubt to the text and assume that
> this is what was actually said by Caiaphas.
>
> The greatest of assumptions we can read into this whole discussion is of
> course Christian doctrine.  I am not saying here that that Christian
> doctrine is wrong. I am only saying that we need to be clear and stick
> strictly to the narrow definitions of what is going to be piecemeal
> discussed, one issue at a time, perhaps one facet of a question I delineated
> previously.
>
> One of these assumptions is that *"the uniting /unification of the tribes"
> *is being talked about here.  We are so  keen on that principle that we
> can read that purpose into John's commentary. Is that what John meant, or is
> there a higher or other unification being talked about here? Are *the
> children of G-d *Israel here, or are all humans created by G-d being
> referred to by this phrase?
>
> *47 <http://bible.cc/john/11-47.htm>*  the chief priests, therefore, and
> the Pharisees, gathered together a Sanhedrin, and said, 'What may we do?
> because this man doth many signs? *48* <http://bible.cc/john/11-48.htm> if
> we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will
> come, and will take away both our place and nation.' *49*<http://bible.cc/john/11-49.htm>and a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being chief priest
> of that year, said to them, 'Ye have not known anything, *50*<http://bible.cc/john/11-50.htm>nor reason that it is good for us that one man may die for the people, and
> not the whole nation perish.'
>
> Notice, that Caiaphas' saying ends here. What follows is John's
> commentary.  Even I assumed that this was said by Caiphas, but it was
> actually written by John or whoever wrote the Gospel of John.
>
>  *51* <http://bible.cc/john/11-51.htm> And this he said not of himself,
> but being chief priest of that year, he did prophesy that Jesus was about to
> die for the nation, *52* <http://bible.cc/john/11-52.htm> and not for the
> nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered
> abroad, *he may gather together into one.* *53*<http://bible.cc/john/11-53.htm>From that day, therefore, they took counsel together that they may kill him;
>
> (John, 11:47-53 Young's literal translation )
>
> If anyone has commentaries or can access commentaries on Ciapahas' saying,
> and on what John says about it, please let us know.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> At 03:59 PM 4/30/2008, you wrote:
>
> Hey Steve, Great idea, how about a new thread as above?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/3033ef3a/attachment.html 

From pmitchel at netvision.net.il  Thu May  1 13:57:44 2008
From: pmitchel at netvision.net.il (Patty Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 21:57:44 +0300
Subject: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
In-Reply-To: <c34.2ffb37da.354a7ae1@aol.com>
References: <c34.2ffb37da.354a7ae1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c8abbd$3d285080$6402a8c0@desktop>

Hey y'all-Hanoch and Steve in particular . . .

 

I've been trying to follow all the chatter and want to share some thoughts.
You two had questions:  Steve-"if Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep of the
house of Israel," why was he sent there?  What was he supposed to do for/to
them? Has he gathered them?   Will he yet gather them?

And Hanoch- And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of
Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can
someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)

 

Here's my quick (ok it ended up not too quick!) summary and understanding-as
of this moment anyway.

 

I didn't grow up gong to church, I only stepped into it in the mid 80s so I
don't come with a lot of church baggage.  Since my first trip to Israel in
94 I haven't know who I was.  If "Jesus" is the Messiah why don't we look
like/act like/follow the Torah like Judah?  Without going into a lot of
detail I'll just say that since 94 I have gone through all the gyrations
(and probably more) I see on this dialogue.  I have had the time in the last
couple of years to sit with Yah and see what He wants to teach me and what
am I therefore supposed to do.  At the get-go let me say I'm a "pan
theologist!"  It's all going to pan out just like Yah wants it to and I
certainly don't understand everything.  In fact the more I seemingly learn
the more I know I don't know anything.  But, I need to be faithful to what
He teaches me and leads me to do while being accepting of where others are.
Two things I do know:  God is God, and I am NOT!  I believe like John Hulley
and Yair Davidy, that God-and only God-is going to bring Judah and Ephraim
to a higher level of understanding of Him and we will not look like either
Judah or Ephraim but He will bring us to His truth which is not either of
what we see today.

 

So, why was Yeshua (not the contorted Greco Roman "Jesus"-- hope that
doesn't offend anyone) sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and how
does his death unite the Northern Tribes and then with Judah?  I'll share
what I have in the last months learned and found absolutely fascinating-I
hope I can do this clearly from the teaching I received!  A lot of this is
direct quoting from that teaching on this subject and not my own words.

 

Remember Yah had made an eternal promise to the patriarchs and to the whole
nation of Israel through Moses that all Israel (all 12 Tribes) would be
called by His Name and be planted in Israel.  His beloved BRIDE!  But due to
the severe, repeated breaking of the covenant God issued the Northern tribes
a certificate of divorce (Isaiah 50:1-2/Jeremiah 3:8).  That's a BIG problem
for God to re-assemble the Tribes as His word states.  Why?  Because even
God obeys His Word.  Look at D'varim 24:1-4 and see what is says about
divorce.  If a man gives his wife a divorce and she becomes another man's
wife and that husband turns her out and gives her a divorce or if he dies,
she can NOT return to the first husband!  So what does this mean for the
Northern tribes?  She's been given a divorce by God for joining herself with
false gods and she has become "married" to them.  By the Word of God, she
can not again be joined to God, her first husband.  So God has a big
problem, how is He going to fulfill His word to re-unit all the tribes and
they becoming His bride?  Its been explained to me that in Hosea 2:16-19
when it says:  "I will betroth you to Me forever; yes I will betroth you to
Me in Righteousness and in justice, in Loving-kindness and in compassion and
I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.  Then you will know YHWH."  The
Hebrew word for betrothed is "aras" the word for an engagement to a new
marriage relationship.  Why would He use this word for betrothal if the
subject of the prophecy is already married to Him?   Flipping over to Romans
7:1 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the
law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"  The
principle is that a law is only valid when there are people who are alive
and contracted to live by that law, because no law has jurisdiction over a
spiritually or physically dead person.  Romans 7:2 "For the married woman is
bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she
is released from the law concerning the husband" ie, if she's widowed she is
then made free concerning the law of the marriage bond.  With the death of
her husband she can become attached to another man.  Romans 7:3 "So then if,
while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be
called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law so
that she is not a adulteress, though she is joined to another man."
Meaning, if a woman has a living husband but she attaches herself to another
man while still married, she is call an adulterer, and is guilty of breaking
the marriage bond.  But, if he dies, she is freed from the legal aspects of
the marriage and is no longer considered an adultery, but with a blemished
reputation. 

 

So what does all this mean?  Through the body of Yeshua, which represents
the written Law of Moses Yeshua's death liberated her (Northern Tribes) from
the Torah's divorce judgment.  Through the physical body (the person of
Yeshua) judgment was diverted and replaced with mercy in hoping that Israel
will recognize the exchange and reconnect to YHWH and His covenant promise.
He did it to Israel because of promises YHWH made to our Fathers proving
that YHWH is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19).  YHWH
accomplished through His appointed agent and mediator Yeshua a remarkable
exchange of a life for a life and this is the true mystery of the gospel
Yochanan 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his
life for his friend.  You are My friends, if you do what I command you." 

 

How does this reunite the Tribes?  Well, it allows us "Yankees" (dang I hate
saying that!) Northern tribes people a way back into the covenant that we
lost when we were issued our divorce.  And, ok, it's a given that we've
still had lots of junk come in, distortions, and outright lies no doubt, but
the fact remains here in the end of days we are finding our way BACK to
Torah and desiring to be reunited with our "Dixie" brothers of the southern
kingdom.  And too even some of the most revered sages have said that Messiah
Ben Yosef must come to bring the Northern tribes back before Messiah Ben
David can come and take up His reign.

 

Do I completely understand all the above - not exactly - but it sure makes a
lot of scripture sense to me.  And I'm just learning as I go . . .  and wow!
It's getting late here at the center of the world so y'all chat away while I
prepare to have a nice sleep!

 

Shalom y'all, 

Patty

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:46 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?

 

Hi Jessica,

 

    Thanks for sharing your take on it; but I've got to tell you, I'm still
struggling with understanding how Jesus' death was so different - and
why/how that 'difference' makes such an impact.  There were countless
thousands of Jews (including many great Rabbis) who were horribly tortured
and martyred by the Roman hordes.

 

    Some of the greatest Sages of the first and second centuries, (Rabi
Akiva, Rabi Ishmael the Kohen HaGadol, Rabbi Chananya ben Tradyon, Rabban
Shimon ben Gamliel, among scores of others, were horrifically tortured to
death by the Roman scum.  Although their teachings are 'alive' wherever
Torah is being learned - their deaths are not considered to have the
'impact' you describe, vis a vis, Jesus.

 

    We have nothing that Jesus himself wrote, and only various versions of
things he was supposed to have said.  All of the sayings which, fits
perfectly within the framework of 1st Century Jewish thought in the Land of
Israel.  Jesus' teachings were very similar to some other Rabbis/teachers of
that time (although not all - there was a wide variety of views).  That's
what I'm struggling to understand, not to argue against - but to understand.
I'm not looking to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything - just trying to
understand why so many feel the way you do....that Jesus' life and death
made/make a HUGE difference in the world.

 

    And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of Israel?  Does
anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can someone shed some
light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)

    

        Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

 





  _____  

Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080501/4d106acb/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Fri May  2 04:53:34 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 05:53:34 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
Message-ID: <ccf.2e0e2f06.354c3e9e@aol.com>

I logged in and selected the box that allows you the ability to receive all  
list emails in one daily email.  I left the default as is.  Someone  with some 
time may try this out and send a better note to explain.
 
Shalom! Ross
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/dafd2401/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 06:39:54 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 07:39:54 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] 'peace' - the Israeli experience
Message-ID: <d00.2e0a1bed.354c578a@aol.com>

 
Boker tov L'Kulchem,
 
    Below is a very interesting, and  important article about the proposed 
'peace' with Syria, based on our  experiences with 'peace' with Egypt.  Please 
read it and  forward...
 
    Shabbat Shalom,
          Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...

FROM:   "AFSI"  <_afsi at rcn.com_ (mailto:afsi at rcn.com) >

With news breaking over  Israel's willingness to give up the Golan
Heights to Syria in exchange for  more empty promises from an Arab
dictatorship, we thought it apropos to send  out the following article
by Rael Jean Isaac, which appeared in AFSI's  November 2002 issue of
Outpost.

The article details how Israel's  treaty with Egypt was a
catastrophe-it left Israel without the Sinai while  the U.S.
massively rearmed Egypt, which violated  every single provision  of
the treaty.  Israel's government today employs the same principles  to
bargain with Syria that were employed with Egypt. As the deal  didn't
work then, it won't work now.

What makes Israel's current offer  so bizarre is that the
Administration has just confirmed, after much  speculation, that it
was a nascent Syrian nuclear reactor that Israel bombed  in September.
If Israel bombed the reactor, it figured out that it would have  been
the target. Surely, Israel can figure out that giving Syria the  Golan
would only improve Syria's geopolitical position for future  efforts
to wipe out the Jewish State.

Egypt: The Peace That Never  Was
Rael Jean Isaac

In 1978, Israel traded both crucial strategic  assets and vital
principles for what (predictably) turned out to be worthless  pieces
of paper. Yet unlike the 1993 Oslo agreements, the  Egyptian-Israeli
peace treaty is still almost universally deemed a success.  This
became obvious when conservative critics, indignant at the  Nobel
Peace Prize award to Jimmy Carter, criticized every aspect of  his
record but this one. Here the critics, implicitly acknowledging  the
treaty's value, have resorted to arguing that Carter does not  really
deserve the credit, pointing out that Menachem Begin and Anwar  Sadat
initially negotiated without and even despite him. More  astonishing,
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon clings to the disastrous Egyptian  treaty
as if it were a model to emulate. Speaking to the Likud  Party
Congress on October 23 Sharon declared: "We know the price of  peace
and the Likud, as it did in the past [in the case of Egypt],  is
prepared to pay this heavy price."

Let us look at what Israel's  leaders gave up, what they thought they
received in return and what they  actually obtained. Israel
relinquished strategic depth -- the Sinai is five  times the size of
Israel in its pre-1967 borders. That depth was not only  important in
relation to Egypt, always Israel's most formidable antagonist,  but in
relation to its other Arab foes. The Sinai airfields served as  the
backbone of Israel's defense system. Israel relinquished the  Abu
Rudeis oil fields and with them the prospect of energy  independence.
The treaty opened the way for the United States to provide  Egypt with
both civilian and military aid: $50 billion worth since 1980.  Direct
U.S. military funding for the Egyptian military now comes to  $1.3
billion each year.

Even more important were the principles that  were established, with
Israel sacrificing what had been basic tenets of the  state -- and of
Begin himself as a Revisionist Zionist. Begin agreed to  return to the
old international border with Egypt and to destroy Jewish towns  and
villages. Begin's initial plan called for Israel to retain the  Etzion
air base in northern Sinai and for the Sinai settlements, of  which
Yamit was the most important, to remain, although both would  be
formally under Egyptian sovereignty. But faced with Sadat's  fierce
rejection, Begin accepted the dangerous principle that Israel  stood
ready to uproot Israeli citizens and forfeit all its  territorial
gains in a defensive war in exchange for Arab  promises.

Moreover, while Begin's core principle as leader of the Herut  Party
had been Israel's right to Judea and Samaria, the heart of  the
ancient Land of Israel, to win the treaty he agreed to Sadat's  demand
that Arabs in the so-called West Bank be given "autonomy" with  the
issue of sovereignty to be taken up after a five year period.  Believe
it or not, the major criticism came from the Labor Party which  argued
-- correctly -- that the autonomy plan would eventually lead  to
establishment of an independent Arab state.

Israel traded key  strategic and economic assets and vital principles
for paper -- indeed, for  more worthless pieces of paper than most
people realize. For although the  texts of the Camp David accords and
the subsequent treaty were widely  available, the contents of the 50
agreements fleshing out the details of  "normalization" in specific
areas remained unknown and inaccessible. In "The  Real Lessons of Camp
David" (Commentary, December 1993) this writer noted  that from
Israel's point of view, these agreements were the heart of the  treaty
-- they defined the "normal and friendly relations" for which  Israel
was willing to sacrifice so much.

Violated from the outset, the  agreements became an embarrassment to
be hidden away. Begin's party, the  Likud, did not want the public to
focus upon them because Camp David was its  proudest achievement and
the contrast between what the agreements promised  and what was
actually delivered revealed that the treaty with Egypt was an  empty
shell. As for Labor, it looked forward to signing treaties with  other
neighboring states and pointing to the failure of the only  existing
one was not likely to inspire confidence in their  utility.
Nonetheless, through inadvertence or early misplaced  optimism,
Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs published a report,  Israel's
Foreign Relations: Selected Documents 1979-80, containing eight  of
the agreements.

They were painstakingly detailed. The agricultural  agreement
provided, for example, that the two countries would cooperate  on
"field crops, vegetables, fruit, floriculture, spices and  medicinal
plant production," on animal production, including "poultry,  dairy,
sheep and goats," on "veterinary services" including  joint
"development and manufacture of veterinary pharmaceuticals  and
vaccines." There would be coordination of "plant-quarantine
inspection  procedures" and of "post-harvesting and processing
activities" and "joint  programs and exchange of experience, methods,
and know-how between their  respective agricultural extension
services."

Of the eight agreements  published, the cultural agreement would have
been the most important to  Israel, for here was a means of
transforming attitudes among an Egyptian  public accustomed to the
demonization of the Jewish state. The two countries  pledged "contacts
and exchange of visits of experts in the cultural,  artistic,
technical, scientific and medical fields," exchanges of  publications,
of art objects, of exhibitions, of radio and television  programs,
recordings and tapes. They promised to "facilitate visits  of
scientists, scholars and researchers of the other country," to
develop  special equivalence "diplomas, certificates and academic
degrees" and to  "encourage and promote youth and sport activities
between youth and sports  institutions in each countries."

Together, the fifty agreements formed  the substance of the new era of
relations which Israel believed it was  obtaining. There was, to be
sure, a brief period of improvement in images of  Israel in the
Egyptian press, some tourism, one youth exchange, a few  agricultural
projects. But once Israel completed its three-year, phased  withdrawal
from the Sinai in April 1982, Egypt froze relations. The  fundamental
reason was later offered by King Hassan of Morocco. He reported  in
1984 that Sadat's successor, Hosni Mubarak, had told him the treaty
was  empty of substance since "Cairo had obtained from it what  it
could."

Within short order, Egypt was massively flouting the  agreements.
Perhaps most important, official, semi-official and  so-called
opposition papers kept up a relentless barrage of hostile  propaganda.
To Israel, ending the "teaching of contempt" was such a  central
target that it had put the promise "to abstain from  hostile
propaganda" into the text of the treaty itself. But soon only  Iran
could compete with Egypt as world center for the publication  and
dissemination of both new and "classic" anti-Semitic  literature.

At the UN, Egypt headed the unsuccessful campaign to keep  the
Zionism-is-racism resolution intact.

No charge was too vicious or  absurd. At least two Egyptian papers
(Al-Akhbar and Al-Masa'a) described the  blowing up of the Pan Am
plane over Lockerbie, Scotland as an Israeli plot.  Israel was accused
of introducing hoof-and-mouth disease into Egypt and  exporting
radiation-contaminated food to Egypt (both in the semi-official  Al
Ahram); of causing earthquakes in Egypt (Al-Wafd, Dec. 27, 1992),  of
bombing the World Trade Center and throwing the blame on  Arabs
(Al-Jumhuriyah, April 5, 1993), of introducing AIDS to Egypt  (Roz
Al-Yusuf, July 2, 1990), and of polluting the entire globe  (Roz
Al-Yusuf, June 15, 1992). In cartoons and caricatures, Egyptian  media
copy Nazi graphics. When a symbol for the Jew is used, it is a  snake
or some hideous imaginary monster. The media broadcast  sermons
describing enmity toward Israel as a religious duty.

Egypt  exerted itself to maintain the Arab boycott and Israel's
international  isolation. Although Egypt undertook in its treaty with
Israel to end all  economic boycotts, the government enforced the Arab
boycott within Egypt. In  1989, the then-Soviet ambassador to Egypt
reported his surprise on being  summoned by the Egyptian Foreign
Minister, who protested a proposed Soviet  thawing of relations with
Israel. When he observed that Egypt had diplomatic  relations with
Israel, he was told that Egypt had no choice but the Soviets  did.
Egypt repeatedly urged African nations not to resume relations  with
Israel. And when, during the first Bush administration, the  United
States led the effort to rescind the UN's  Zionism-equals-racism
resolution, Egypt headed the unsuccessful campaign to  keep the
resolution intact. True to form, at the UN anti-racism conference  in
Durban in 2002, Egypt led the (largely successful) effort to turn  the
conference into an assault on Israel.

Carolyn Glick, writing in  the Jerusalem Post ("Not a Cold Peace -- a
Cold War," August 17, 2001) notes  that the open hostility of all
strata of Egyptian society is best  encapsulated by the treatment of
Israeli diplomats in Cairo. She quotes Alon  Liel, Director General of
Israel's Foreign Ministry in the Barak government:  "The lives of our
diplomats in Cairo are hellish. They are physically  threatened and
humiliated socially and professionally. If you are an  Israeli
diplomat, no one wants to see you, to meet with you and the  press
crucifies you everyday. There are almost no professionals  or
tradesmen whose services an Israeli diplomat may seek out, who  will
agree to help him....For instance, if one of our diplomats needs  to
see a doctor we have to send one out from Israel. Egyptian  doctors
refuse to treat embassy personnel."

Egypt's armed forces have  been upgraded and modernized with American
aid. Egypt now has the thirteenth  largest armed force in the world.
With a regular army of 450,000 soldiers,  the Egyptian army is larger
than the combined NATO forces. The Egyptian air  force, soon to
include more than 215 F-16 jets, is the fourth largest such  fleet in
the world. In addition to all the American military equipment,  Egypt
has obtained from North Korea the intermediate-range No-Dong  missiles.

There can be no doubt that Israel is the intended target of all  of
this. Indeed, as early as 1988, when the treaty with Israel was only
a  decade old, Egypt's Defense Minister General Abu Ghazzala told the
Defense  and National Security Committee of the Egyptian People's
Assembly that Israel  was Egypt's "principal and sole enemy" and
together with Syria, Egypt could  achieve a "crushing" victory over
the Jewish state (Near East Report,  September 11, 1989). As Aaron
Lerner of IMRA (Independent Media Review and  Analysis) notes, it is
ironic that Sharon alluded to the treaty with Egypt as  a model during
the very week when Egypt concluded "A'asar-2002", a major  land, sea
and air military exercise in which it moved massive forces into  the
Sinai and destroyed mock enemy fortifications. It was the second  such
exercise in the Sinai in the last three months. A third took place  at
the beginning of November.

Egypt participates in terror activities  directed against Israel.
Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff General Moshe  Yaalon reported a
recent incident where the IDF exploded a tunnel for  smuggling
weapons, ammunition and terrorists from the Sinai into  Palestinian
Authority-controlled Rafah and the smoke from the explosion could  be
seen rising from an Egyptian army position on the Egyptian side of
the  border!

If one of our diplomats needs to see a doctor we have to send one  out
from Israel. Egyptian doctors refuse to treat embassy  personnel.

The notorious anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders  of
Zion (it was concocted by the Russian Czar's secret police at the
turn  of the 19th century) has long been a staple of Egyptian
propaganda, available  in bookstores, serialized in newspapers. No
less an authority than President  Gamal abdel Nasser publicly vouched
for their authenticity. Now Egyptian  state television will be
broadcasting a 30 part series based on the Protocols  during Ramadan.
The plot of the series centers on a journalist, played by  well known
Egyptian actor Mohammed Sobhi (who has close relations with  Saddam
Hussein and is a vocal supporter of Hezbollah).The journalist  tries
to find out if the protocols are "true." In an interview with  the
Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Yusuf, Sobhi told the magazine: "By means  of
the series I am exposing all the Protocols of the Elders of Zion  that
have been implemented." In the face of criticism abroad  Egypt's
Information Minister Safwat el-Sheriff convened a special committee  to
review the script, which was held not to be anti-Semitic.

Such are  the poison fruits of the Egyptian-Israel peace treaty for
which Carter is  honored and which Ariel Sharon cites as a model for
future agreements with  the Arabs. Israel obtained nothing for the
vital assets it sacrificed. There  has been no war with Egypt, but
neither has there been war with Syria --  without a treaty. The treaty
was a catastrophe, paving the way for the  massive rearming of Egypt
by the U.S. and bringing closer the day when Arab  armies, with Egypt,
as in 1967, at their head, once more attempt to  annihilate Israel.

Rael Jean Isaac is editor of Outpost.

Please  visit our website: _http://www.afsi.org/_ (http://www.afsi.org/)   






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/c51e76ec/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 06:51:07 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 07:51:07 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] A myth...
Message-ID: <d18.286267fe.354c5a2b@aol.com>

 
Shalom Chaverim Tovim,
 
    I have found everything that Michael  Freund has written is 
profound....please read and pass it along to your  friends...toda!
      Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...

The Myth of Palestinian Moderation  
Michael Freund -  Apr 30, 2008 
The Jerusalem Post  

Even for a  president prone to misusing the English language, George W. Bush 
outdid himself  last week. 

Sitting next to Mahmoud Abbas at the White House, Bush gushed  and swooned 
over the visiting Palestinian leader, describing him in terms  usually reserved 
for heroes and saints.

"The president is a man of  peace," Bush assured the gaggle of reporters who 
were present. "He's a man of  vision. He rejects the idea of using violence to 
achieve objectives, which  distinguishes him from other people in the region."

While Bush's grammar  may have been uncommonly accurate that day, his 
description of Abbas was  anything but. For even a cursory glance at some of the 
Palestinian president's  outbursts in recent months reveal a man wholly 
undeserving of such  praise.

On March 1, Abbas had the gall to insult the memory of the six  million Jews 
murdered by the Nazis when he declared that Israel's counter-terror  
operations in Gaza were "worse than the Holocaust" (Jerusalem Post, March  2).

And in an interview with the Jordanian newspaper Al-Dustur on  February 28, 
Abbas boasted that he had been the first Palestinian to fire a  bullet at 
Israel after the birth of the PLO in 1965.

This ostensible "man  of peace" then took pride in the fact that his Fatah 
movement had trained  Hizbullah terrorists, and he did not rule out a return to 
the "armed struggle"  against Israel in the future.

And just two weeks ago, Abbas was planning  to confer the Al-Quds Mark of 
Honor, the PLO's highest award, to two female  Palestinian terrorists who took 
part in the killing of Israelis (Israel Radio,  April 16). The event was 
cancelled only after it was publicized widely in the  media.

Need we also mention the Palestinian president's refusal late last  year to 
recognize Israel as a "Jewish state"?

THIS OF course puts the lie  to Bush's stubborn embrace of Abbas as a 
reasonable and judicious leader that  can be counted on to forge a peace deal. If 
anything, the Palestinian president  has repeatedly shown himself to be an 
intemperate hot-head. Nonetheless, that  doesn't seem to stop Washington and much of 
the media from bestowing upon him  the coveted title of a "moderate" leader 
that Israel can do business  with.

"Abbas's moderate and Western-backed government rules the West  Bank," the 
Associated Press (April 25) helpfully explained in a recent report.  According 
to Reuters (April 24), Abbas is "a pro-Western moderate," while Agence  
France-Presse referred to him on Monday as "moderate Palestinian president  Mahmoud 
Abbas," as though the appellation "moderate" was an integral part of his  title.

All of this shameful fawning on the Palestinian thug-in-chief  raises a 
simple, yet rarely-asked, question: why is there such a widespread  insistence on 
deluding the public into thinking that Abbas is a "moderate"  leader who 
epitomizes the majority of Palestinians?

The issue is more  than academic. In fact, it goes directly to the core of 
current US and Israeli  government policy.

After all, the entire intellectual basis for the  notion of granting the 
Palestinians a state rests on the dubious assumption that  a majority of them are 
actually reasonable, peace-loving people.

Too bad  that all the available evidence appears to indicate otherwise.

Last week,  for example, the Palestinian-run Jerusalem Media and 
Communications Center  published the results of a survey revealing that a majority of 
Palestinians  (50.7%) support suicide-bombing attacks against Israeli civilians.

This  was in line with previous polls, which have consistently shown 
overwhelming  Palestinian backing for anti-Israel terror.

Indeed, just last month, the  Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy 
and Survey Research found that an  astonishing 84% of Palestinians supported the 
gruesome execution-style murder of  8 Israeli teens by a Palestinian 
terrorist at the Mercaz HaRav Yeshiva in  Jerusalem.

And by a margin of 64% to 33%, or nearly two to one,  Palestinians were in 
favor of continued rocket attacks against Israeli towns and  cities.

THESE COLD, hard facts present supporters of the peace process  with a major 
problem, if only because they confirm that the very idea of  Palestinian 
moderation is a myth. It is a figment of the imagination, a flight  of fantasy that 
bears little resemblance to reality.

After all, it is not  as if a tiny minority of Palestinians support the 
murder of Jews. The bulk of  them do. And wishing it were otherwise simply doesn't 
make it so. So let's stop  fooling ourselves. Giving the Palestinians a state 
when a majority of them want  us dead is both reckless and irresponsible.

It is a recipe for disaster,  and will only serve to create yet another 
radical, terror-sponsoring state in  the region.

And let's cease calling Mahmoud Abbas a "moderate." Anyone  who refuses to 
recognize Israel as a "Jewish state," makes a mockery of the  Holocaust, and 
threatens a return to violence, is certainly not deserving of  such a 
characterization.

Instead, let's call Abbas what he really is. For  if he looks like an 
extremist, sounds like an extremist, and acts like an  extremist, chances are that he 
is one. And more importantly, let's start  treating him as such.




3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I  Phone: 913.648.0022 I 
Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards  compliant browsers. If your browser is 
not standards compliant, download one _here_ 
(http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) .
Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for  Israel. 





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/7cd03414/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 07:09:29 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 08:09:29 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Message-ID: <cd5.2d5fd6a7.354c5e79@aol.com>

 
Shalom Chaverim Tovim,
 
    Below is from _www.isralight.org_ (http://www.isralight.org/)  and is 
from Rav Binny Freedman.  I have added some 'editorial  comments' which marked in 
RED.  And of course, please realize that it is written to a Jewish  audience. 
 But there are many, many valuable 'nuggets' contained  within.  May it help 
to make your Shabbat even more  meaningful!
 
    Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we  all know Rav Kahane was right...
 
    Small Tastings of Torah, Judaism and Spirituality
by Rav Binny  Freedman, Director     
Portion of Kedoshim


 
(http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001vtLZbFLdHed8Qlk3v-crYxadTQ5O9iGyhB5IXzaV-oGcmtMMoHG55li6g5UJ9Zv3xOi1W0FaxCp5Xq1u6b_ygt91YjPvIYCR2_UwkiU995NfDieC8V2lVdK_8WY__QZ
h43HI18JRHTjfhnj-BzGrOgiUliwAvyxQ) 
The year, 2003. The sound of the train pulling in to the Kfar Saba  station 
filled the air on another beautiful afternoon, as passengers made  ready to 
embark on their journey...home?  
Hundreds of people getting on and off a second train across the  platform, 
beneath the beautiful new glass and stone ceiling of the modern,  new station 
just opened only two weeks before.  
An innocent scene, full of hellos and goodbyes, and the promise and  
potential of beginnings.  
At the entrance to the crowded station any number of people coming in  and 
going out, young and old, passing through the automatic doors, beneath  the 
alert eyes of the security guard who, like thousands of other security  guards 
across Israel, holds the line in the war against terror.  
One teenager, a boy who looks like any other boy, with spiked, blond  
punk-style hair, perhaps on his way to a night out with friends, walks in  the middle 
of the crowd towards the arriving train.  
Was it his eyes? There is always something in the eyes... Or perhaps  the 
raincoat, worn closed over a t- shirt on an unseasonably warm  afternoon?  
Eyewitnesses later could not be sure, but something makes the security  guard 
take notice, and he approaches this teenager, who, as it turns out,  is only 
eighteen years old. A brief exchange of words, and the guard  reaches out to 
grab the boy's arm, an instant before this peaceful, sunny  afternoon turns 
into a maelstrom of fire and death as an explosion rips  apart the station 
killing him and leaving countless others wounded and  fighting for their lives.  
Police experts would later state that the alert actions of this brave  guard, 
Alexander Kostyuk, a Russian immigrant living in Bat Yam, prevented  what 
would most certainly have been the massacre of over 250 people  milling about 
between the enclosed space of the two trains not forty yards  away, who would 
have had no escape.  
One week later, this scene practically repeats itself outside of a Tel  Aviv 
pub (Mike's Place), as again, an alert security guard gives up his  life while 
preventing a terrorist bomber from entering the crowded bar,  saving dozens 
of people.  
In our recent history, our heroes have come in the most unlikely shapes  and 
sizes.  
Whether a hitch-hiker at the Givat Tzarfatit junction who happens to  notice 
a fellow listening to a cell phone which is upside down, or a  father who 
stuck his head out of his window and spotted a terrorist  reloading his gun in 
Elon Moreh, there is no profile for the unsung heroes  who seem to be patrolling 
the front lines in Israel's war on terror.  
Much like the innocent passengers who happened to be on an ill-fated  flight 
on September 11th, they find themselves in the wrong (or right?)  place at the 
wrong time, and somehow rise to the moment they were destined  to meet.  
Is there some lesson to be gleaned from these tragic events?  
This week's portion,Kedoshim, begins with a powerful challenge:   
"...Kedoshim Te'hiyu', Ki Kadosh Ani Hashem Elokeichem."
"...You  shall be holy (Kadosh) because I, G-d, your G- d, am Holy."(VaYikra  
19:2)  
What does it mean to be holy? And why is this mitzvah seemingly tied to  the 
fact that G-d is holy? If we are meant to be Kadosh, it should  be enough that 
Hashem tells us this; why does it seem here that G-d has to  give us a 
reason? Why does Hashem have to justify, so it seems, His  commandment that we be 
holy by adding that Hashem is holy?  
Indeed, if this mitzvah is somehow connected to our mission to emulate  or 
imitate G-d (Imitatio' Deos') , how does one accomplish this,  and is this 
really possible?  
It is interesting to note that the above-mentioned verse actually  begins 
with words of introduction not often found in the Torah:  
"And G-d spoke to Moshe saying: Speak to the entire congregation of  Israel, 
("Kol Adat B'nei Yisrael") and say unto them you shall be holy  (Kadosh) 
because I, G-d, your G-d, am Holy." (19:1-2)  
One wonders why this particular mitzvah is stressed as meant for the  entire 
congregation of Israel; isn't every mitzvah for the entire  congregation of 
Israel? Why is this mitzvah different from any other?  
Rashi here points out (based on the Midrash) that this mitzvah  was given to 
the Israelite/Hebrew people in a congregated gathering (Hak'hel), because  
"most of the body of the Torah is dependant on it." (Rashi 19:2)   
But this doesn't seem to help us much. Why is this mitzvah so crucial,  and 
how does the fact that it is given to the Hebrews while they are assembled 
together, help us  regarding its understanding or its fulfillment?  
It is interesting to note that this very statement, referring to the  
sanctity of the entire congregation is precisely the claim of Korach, who,  when 
inciting the nation to rebel against the leadership of Moshe suggests  that:  
"... Kol Ha'Edah Kulam Kedoshim, U've'tocham Hashem."  
"For the entire congregation is all holy, and G-d is in their midst."  
(Bamidbar 16:3)  
And if, suggests Korach, we are all holy, then why should Moshe be the  
leader? After all, if everyone is holy, and everyone is special, so we are  all 
leaders!  
There seems to be a basic underlying question here which necessarily  
requires our attention: Is this a promise, or a command?  
Are we commanded to be holy, and is this therefore an obligation, or is  it 
simply a promise? Perhaps G-d is promising us that we will, ultimately,  be a 
holy nation? And if indeed this is so, is there then any obligation  of action 
regarding this idea?  
If this concept of a holy nation is a promise from G-d, it will result  
merely from our belief in that same G-d, and our willingness to align  ourselves as 
members of His holy nation. Indeed, holiness then becomes a  function of what 
we believe; it is a reward for a lifetime of faith.  
Judaism however, does not see holiness this way. In fact, this is the  
essence of Christianity, namely that holiness is the result of faith  alone.  
Judaism views this as a misunderstanding of what holiness is all about.  
Holiness is not about what we believe; it is about how we behave. Rav  Abraham 
Yitzchak HaKohen Kook (in Orot pg. 32) suggests that  Holiness (Kedushah) is not 
about sanctifying our will and desires; it is  rather about elevating and 
sanctifying our actions.  
And if holiness is in fact a mitzvah, then that means we are, all of  us, 
capable of achieving it, and it demands of us many concrete and  empirical forms 
of behavior. Which is why this entire portion proceeds to  outline the modes 
of actual behavior that are expected of each and every  one of us.  
There are many who believe holiness to be the right or privilege of a  select 
few, those elevated souls who are 'the holy ones'. Not so, says  Judaism; 
every human being has the potential and the ability, and indeed  the obligation 
to become holy, simply by virtue of our actions in this  world. Kedushah, 
holiness, is an obligation.  
And yet, suggests Rav Kook, it is also a promise, because while  the sanctity 
of the individual is the result of his personal toil and  achievements, the 
holiness of the Jewish people is in fact a promise. Each  and every Jew &  
Ephramite contributes to the holiness of the entire Jewish  & Ephramite peoples, 
as we were promised long ago, actually at  the foot of Sinai that we would be a 
"Kingdom of Priests and a Holy  Nation." (Shemot 19:6)  
Which brings us back to what this Kedushah is all about. What does this  
mean, that we as a people are meant to be, indeed were promised we would  be a 
holy nation? This seems to smack of a certain elitism, perhaps even  of 
ethnocentricity. Are we somehow better than everyone else? Do we  deserve what others 
don't? Indeed this question was somehow at the root of  Korach's rebellion 
against Moses, with his contention that if the entire  people are all holy, then 
why should Moses or anyone be above anybody  else?  
Perhaps in order to understand this idea we need to understand the  
difference between being holy, and being chosen. In addition to calling  ourselves a 
holy nation, we also describe ourselves as the chosen people.  Indeed, every 
morning when we make the blessings over the Torah, we utter  the same phrase:  
"Asher Bachar Banu' Mi'Kol Ha'Amim..." 
"Who has  chosen us from amongst all the nations..."  
Are we really the chosen people? Are we better than everyone else?  Could 
this seemingly elite attitude be at the root or at least partially  responsible 
for some of the terrible anti-Semitism we have experienced and  continue to 
experience as a people?  
Doesn't this concept of chosen-ness smack of the very Nazi Aryanism  that 
caused so much pain in this century for own people?  
In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.  
To be chosen does not mean to be better; it simply means to be  different.  
In fact Jews come in all shapes and sizes, with no reference anywhere  in 
Jewish law and tradition to any difference whatsoever regarding a Jew's  status 
be he or she black or white, or of African, Mexican, Chinese,  European or any 
other racial origin. So obviously this idea of being  chosen cannot be a 
racist concept.  
Indeed, Jewish tradition even has a place in the world to come for the  
righteous amongst the nations, (see Tosefta Sanhedrin 13). It is  actually a lot 
easier for a non-Jew to get into 'heaven' and certainly to  keep his or her 
place there, than it is for a Jew!  
And of course, anyone, regardless of race or nationality, who  wishes to 
become Jewish and is willing to accept the Jewish way of life  can do so, through 
a process known as Giyur (conversion).  Obviously, then, we are not 'better' 
in the normal sense of that word.  
To be chosen means to have a particular purpose, or mission in this  world. 
In fact, everyone and indeed everything is chosen. The question is  what they 
are chosen for.  
What we thank Hashem for every day is what we have been given; our  purpose 
for which we have been chosen.  
You see, four thousand years ago, for some reason that remains a  mystery to 
historians of all disciplines, monotheism burst onto the world  scene, amidst 
a world wallowing in the morass of pagan idolatry. And, by  definition, if a 
people, for whatever the reason, accept upon themselves  not one, nor seven, 
but actually six hundred and thirteen different  vehicles for relating to G-d 
(known as mitzvoth), then the result will be  a very different relationship with 
that same G-d.  
Hashem, G-d, created all the nations of the world, so it would be  
challenging at best to imagine that any one nation is somehow better than  any other. 
But at the same time, given that all peoples have taken  different paths and 
have different approaches in their relationships with  G-d and the world around 
them, it stands to reason that each nation has a  different relationship with 
G-d.  
We are all, in a sense, chosen, each of us born as individuals with our  own 
special gifts. The real question is not whether I am chosen.  The real 
question is what am I chosen for? What do I choose to do with the  gifts I have been 
given?  
The concept of being 'chosen' as a people does not mean we are better  than 
anyone else. What it means is that we, (like any other nation) have  our own 
special gifts and therefore our own special purpose. And this  different (and 
not better) relationship with G-d is a result of the  choices we have made. All 
of which now present us with the challenge of  living up to the 
responsibilities those gifts and that different  relationship entail.  
But this is what chosen-ness (Bechirah) is about, which is very  different 
from the concept of Kedusha (holiness), which people often  confuse as being one 
concept.  
Hence every Friday night when we make Kiddush over a cup of wine we  say: "Ki 
Vanu' Vacharta, Ve'Otanu Kidashta'" "Because  you chose us and sanctified 
us...."  
To be chosen represents the gifts we are given; to be holy is a  statement 
about what we choose to do with those gifts.  
Because who I am, ultimately, is a result of the choices I make, which  means 
the actions I undertake.  
It is precisely because we are a Kingdom of Kohanim (Priests), that we  are 
challenged to live up to that potential in how we behave every day,  and indeed 
every minute.  
This is why this portion follows some of the laws of the Kohanim as  seen 
over the last few portions, and leads to all of the mitzvoth  contained in this 
week's portion.  
This now brings us back to our original question: why is this  particular 
mitzvah given to the Jewish people as a whole congregation (in  a state of 
assembly, or Hakhel, as Rashi points out) and why is  this related to the fact that 
G-d is Kadosh?  
If Kedushah is about how we behave in order to live up to our  mission as a 
people, the Torah is telling us here that we can't get there  until we 
recognize that each and every one of us has that same potential.   
Every Jew can be Kadosh, if he or she so wills it, and the underlying  theme 
of all that we do, and indeed all of the mitzvoth in this week's  parsha is to 
be able to recognize that very same fact.  
The basis for understanding that every one of us is Kadosh, is the  
realization that we are all created in the image of G-d, and that we are  all a part of 
G-d, and that there is a piece of G-d inside each and every  one of us. And 
if we cannot connect to that simple idea, we will never  achieve in ourselves, 
the level of Kedushah that this important mitzvah  challenges us to achieve.  
Take, for example, another critical mitzvah that is listed as one of  the 
mitzvoth in this week's portion:  
"Ve'Ahavta' Le'Re'achah' Ka'mochah" 
"Love thy neighbor (really:  friend) as your self" (19:18)  
Indeed, Rabbi Akiva suggests (Jerusalem Talmud Nedarim  9:4) that this 
mitzvah is a Clal Gadol, a major principle in the  Torah, such that, again, all 
other mitzvoth stem from this principle.  
One of our greatest challenges as a people is how we interpret this  
particular statement in the Torah. Many understand this to mean that we  are only 
commanded here to love those who are our "Re'ah" which  some take to mean a fellow 
Jew who is following the path of goodness and  righteousness. Thus, if I 
somehow perceive someone to be erring in his or  her ways, or even pursuing a 
wicked path, I am not obligated to treat them  as myself and love them in this 
manner.  
In fact, Maimonides suggests that this mitzvah (to love your  friend as 
yourself) means that: "All the things you would want others  to do for you, you 
should do for themin Torah and Mitzvoth."  (Hilchot Avelut 14:1) implying that 
this mitzvah applies only to  those who fulfill Torah and mitzvoth.  
And yet, Rav Aviner, in his Tal Chermon points out that  the Talmud in 
Sanhedrin (52b) seems to contradict Maimonides here, when it  suggests that even in 
the case of a wicked person condemned to death by a  Jewish court (i.e. a 
murderer), we must be careful not to cause him undue  suffering based on the 
mitzvah of loving your neighbor as yourself!  
So obviously, this mitzvah applies to anyone, no matter how wicked  their 
deeds (perceived or real). In fact, the Rambam seems to contradict  his own words 
elsewhere when he says that the mitzvah of loving your  neighbor as yourself 
means, "to love every person... as he is."  (Hilchot De'ot 6:3).  
Rather, suggests Rav Bar Shaul in his Mitzvah Ve'Lev,  when Maimonides refers 
to this mitzvah as relating to "your brother in  Torah and Mitzvoth" he does 
not mean that this mitzvah applies only to  someone who actually fulfills 
Torah and Mitzvoth, but rather someone who  shares the same mission (and thus the 
same obligation.)  
The very fact that someone shares the same purpose and is chosen for  the 
same mission obligates me to love that person as myself. This makes a  lot of 
sense, because if love is all about giving, and we are promised by  G-d that we 
will be a holy people, then giving to anyone who shares that  same mission is 
simply a part of making sure we get there.  
There are some who will ask why there is a mitzvah to love someone even  
though he may be following a wicked path? Why should I be commanded to  love my 
fellow Jew even though he is a murderer? In fact, the Talmud  (Pesachim 113a) 
tells us there is actually a mitzvah to hate  ("Lisnoh") the wicked! So how we 
can we be commanded to love them  at the same time?  
And there is a mitzvah to unburden the ox of "Sone'chah" (one  you hate, or 
the one who hates you). Maimonides himself (Hilchot  Rotzeach 13:14) asks:  
"How could a Jew hate another Jew? Especially since the  verse commands us: 
"Lo' Tisnah Et Achichah' Bi'Levavechah", ("Don't hate  your brother in your 
heart")? The sages explain that this refers to when  you actually see a person 
transgressing and warn him of the consequences  and he nonetheless continues to 
violate the Torah, there is a mitzvah to  hate him ("Li'snoh' Oto") until he 
repents and returns from his evil  ways." 
So it seems that if a person refuses to relent from wickedness, there  is 
actually a mitzvah to hate him! And yet as we have seen there is also a  mitzvah 
to love him?! How can this be?  
This, perhaps, is precisely what the Baal Ha'Tanya means when he  says (chap. 
32) that:  
"Those whom there is a mitzvah to hate, there is also a  mitzvah to love; you 
have to hate the evil part of them, and love the  spark of goodness that is 
always there, however much it is hidden.  Because that spark of goodness is 
actually the spark of G-d which  sustains the G-dliness in each and every human 
being." 
In  other words, we have to hate evil, and thus we have to hate all evil  
actions, but we are not meant to hate the person. We are rather, meant to  find 
the hidden spark of goodness inside a person and love that at the  same time. 
The Tanya adds that:  
"The fact that the holy spark of G-d is somehow in exile  in a person, and 
lost amidst all the evil a person can stoop to, should  actually cause us pain, 
and encourage us to feel mercy, which will  ultimately drown out any hatred we 
might feel amidst a natural arousal  of love, even for such a person." 
We must sometimes  detest a person's actions, while at the same time 
continuing to love their  soul. And in the end, since the soul is primary, our love 
will overcome  our hatred and we will and should come to feel only love.  
And this indeed, is the essence of the blessing the Kohanim make before  they 
bless the people: "Blessed are you Hashem... who has commanded us to  bless 
His people Israel with Love." And the Zohar says (Naso  147) that a Kohen who 
does not feel love for the entire Jewish people  is forbidden to bless. And of 
course the Kohen blesses all of the Jewish  people, the righteous and the 
wicked all together.  
The Midrash Halachah (Sifra VaYikra 19: 43, and see also the  Talmud in 
Arachin 16b) quotes Rabbi Tarfon as  saying:
"I swear if there be even one person in our generation who  is able (worthy 
enough) to give Tochachah" (tell a person off for  their transgressions),  
and Rabbi Akiva who says: 
"There is not even one person  in his generation who even knows how to give 
Tochachah'!"  
And that was in the generation of Rabbi Tarfon and Rabbi Akiva!  
Which is why no les than the Chafetz Chaim (at the end of his  Ahavat Chesed) 
rules that in our generation, it is forbidden to  hate anyone; we are all 
obligated only to love each other. (And the  Chazon Ish (Yoreh De'ah 13:16 and on 
the Rambam Deot 6:7)and Rav  Kook ( Igrot Ha'Re'aiyah' 266) rule this way as 
well.)  
All of which brings us back to our beginning. The reason we are given  this 
mitzvah, to love even the wicked, is because the love we demonstrate  (even 
while we do not learn to love wickedness itself) becomes the vehicle  for 
uncovering the holy sparks hidden inside each and every one of us.  Evil is after all 
an external part of a person, which merely covers up the  good hidden inside. 
But when we spend so much time on the external evil,  it becomes almost like 
baking it in; making it even more difficult for  that beautiful hidden inner 
light to burst forth.  
Rav Kook says (Orot 148) :  
"Loving... is not just an emotional experience, but rather a  part of the 
mastery of Torah, and a very deep and wide wisdom which we  all need to 
develop..." 
This then, is the sanctity we all  seek to achieve. This was not a mitzvah 
that was given us as an entire  people assembled together. Rather, this mitzvah 
is the  challenge of seeing the entire Jewish people as assembled together,  
always.  
Whether it is the esteemed Rabbi getting off the train, or the Russian  
security guard standing outside the station, we are all one people:  soldiers and 
doctors, plumbers and Knesset members, Talmud scholars and  janitors.  
This week we commemorated Yom Hashoah, the Remembrance Day for those  who per
ished in the Holocaust. We are reminded that if we don't learn to  live 
together, we will certainly learn to die together.  
Only when we learn to really see each other as a people in this way,  will we 
be ready to become the light that will allow us to see the entire  world in 
the same fashion.  
May Hashem bless all of us to discover the beauty of the gifts we have  been 
given, and the ability and desire to live up to the challenge of all  the 
responsibility that entails.  
Shabbat Shalom,  
Binny Freedman  





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/75bd67e9/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 07:18:51 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 08:18:51 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget...
Message-ID: <c5f.2f26bcb3.354c60ab@aol.com>

 
Boker tov,
 
    Please, during our wonderful Shabbat  meals, before we eat, let's please 
keep say out loud the names of our brave  soldiers who are still away from 
their families this Shabbat.  May  they all come home soon...
 
     Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we  all know Rav Kahane was right...
 
Please continue to keep our recently captured soldiers, and  those missing in 
action for so many years now, and all of our brothers and  sisters in Israel 
in your prayers.  
Gilad (ben Aviva) Shalit
Ehud (ben Malka) Goldwasser
Eldad  (ben Tova) Regev
Guy (ben Rina) Hever, who disappeared near the Syrian-Israeli  border in the 
Golan Heights in August 1997;  
Ron (ben Batya) Arad, captured when his plane was downed over  Lebanon in 
Oct. 1986;  
Tzvi (ben Pninah) Feldman, Yehuda (Yekutiel Yehuda Nachman ben  Sarah) Katz, 
and Zecharia (Shlomo ben Miriam) Baumel, who were all captured in  the Sultan 
Yaaqub battle in Lebanon on June 11, 1982.  






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/e63710e9/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  2 09:59:18 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:59:18 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Message-ID: <c4a.2796bffd.354c8646@aol.com>

Hey Hanoch:
 
Thanks for this insightful reading chocked full of wisdom. 
 
Your pal in Southern Cal. 
 
Clyde
 
PS:  How did this happen, you of Judah in the north, and me of Ephraim  in 
the south?  



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/a4691d7e/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 08:09:29 EDT
Size: 55654
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/a4691d7e/attachment.mht 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Fri May  2 10:07:50 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 10:07:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?
References: <c34.2ffb37da.354a7ae1@aol.com>
	<000e01c8abbd$3d285080$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <08de01c8ac66$4a7a4d70$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Patty,  ;Have only a minute...but what you say has the most sense I have heard....AND UNDERSTOOD re: this subject.  Thanks  so very much!  I have had it on the back burner for.....over a decadenow.  Will munch on it today as I run..... Wow...so simple....that's why it must be HaShem!   Have a BLESSED Shabbot!   Loy Leorah
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty Mitchell 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:57 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?


  Hey y'all-Hanoch and Steve in particular . . .

   

  I've been trying to follow all the chatter and want to share some thoughts.  You two had questions:  Steve-"if Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel," why was he sent there?  What was he supposed to do for/to them? Has he gathered them?   Will he yet gather them?

  And Hanoch- And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)

   

  Here's my quick (ok it ended up not too quick!) summary and understanding-as of this moment anyway.

   

  I didn't grow up gong to church, I only stepped into it in the mid 80s so I don't come with a lot of church baggage.  Since my first trip to Israel in 94 I haven't know who I was.  If "Jesus" is the Messiah why don't we look like/act like/follow the Torah like Judah?  Without going into a lot of detail I'll just say that since 94 I have gone through all the gyrations (and probably more) I see on this dialogue.  I have had the time in the last couple of years to sit with Yah and see what He wants to teach me and what am I therefore supposed to do.  At the get-go let me say I'm a "pan theologist!"  It's all going to pan out just like Yah wants it to and I certainly don't understand everything.  In fact the more I seemingly learn the more I know I don't know anything.  But, I need to be faithful to what He teaches me and leads me to do while being accepting of where others are.  Two things I do know:  God is God, and I am NOT!  I believe like John Hulley and Yair Davidy, that God-and only God-is going to bring Judah and Ephraim to a higher level of understanding of Him and we will not look like either Judah or Ephraim but He will bring us to His truth which is not either of what we see today.

   

  So, why was Yeshua (not the contorted Greco Roman "Jesus"-- hope that doesn't offend anyone) sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and how does his death unite the Northern Tribes and then with Judah?  I'll share what I have in the last months learned and found absolutely fascinating-I hope I can do this clearly from the teaching I received!  A lot of this is direct quoting from that teaching on this subject and not my own words.

   

  Remember Yah had made an eternal promise to the patriarchs and to the whole nation of Israel through Moses that all Israel (all 12 Tribes) would be called by His Name and be planted in Israel.  His beloved BRIDE!  But due to the severe, repeated breaking of the covenant God issued the Northern tribes a certificate of divorce (Isaiah 50:1-2/Jeremiah 3:8).  That's a BIG problem for God to re-assemble the Tribes as His word states.  Why?  Because even God obeys His Word.  Look at D'varim 24:1-4 and see what is says about divorce.  If a man gives his wife a divorce and she becomes another man's wife and that husband turns her out and gives her a divorce or if he dies, she can NOT return to the first husband!  So what does this mean for the Northern tribes?  She's been given a divorce by God for joining herself with false gods and she has become "married" to them.  By the Word of God, she can not again be joined to God, her first husband.  So God has a big problem, how is He going to fulfill His word to re-unit all the tribes and they becoming His bride?  Its been explained to me that in Hosea 2:16-19 when it says:  "I will betroth you to Me forever; yes I will betroth you to Me in Righteousness and in justice, in Loving-kindness and in compassion and I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness.  Then you will know YHWH."  The Hebrew word for betrothed is "aras" the word for an engagement to a new marriage relationship.  Why would He use this word for betrothal if the subject of the prophecy is already married to Him?   Flipping over to Romans 7:1 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?"  The principle is that a law is only valid when there are people who are alive and contracted to live by that law, because no law has jurisdiction over a spiritually or physically dead person.  Romans 7:2 "For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband" ie, if she's widowed she is then made free concerning the law of the marriage bond.  With the death of her husband she can become attached to another man.  Romans 7:3 "So then if, while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law so that she is not a adulteress, though she is joined to another man."  Meaning, if a woman has a living husband but she attaches herself to another man while still married, she is call an adulterer, and is guilty of breaking the marriage bond.  But, if he dies, she is freed from the legal aspects of the marriage and is no longer considered an adultery, but with a blemished reputation. 

   

  So what does all this mean?  Through the body of Yeshua, which represents the written Law of Moses Yeshua's death liberated her (Northern Tribes) from the Torah's divorce judgment.  Through the physical body (the person of Yeshua) judgment was diverted and replaced with mercy in hoping that Israel will recognize the exchange and reconnect to YHWH and His covenant promise.  He did it to Israel because of promises YHWH made to our Fathers proving that YHWH is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19).  YHWH accomplished through His appointed agent and mediator Yeshua a remarkable exchange of a life for a life and this is the true mystery of the gospel  Yochanan 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friend.  You are My friends, if you do what I command you." 

   

  How does this reunite the Tribes?  Well, it allows us "Yankees" (dang I hate saying that!) Northern tribes people a way back into the covenant that we lost when we were issued our divorce.  And, ok, it's a given that we've still had lots of junk come in, distortions, and outright lies no doubt, but the fact remains here in the end of days we are finding our way BACK to Torah and desiring to be reunited with our "Dixie" brothers of the southern kingdom.  And too even some of the most revered sages have said that Messiah Ben Yosef must come to bring the Northern tribes back before Messiah Ben David can come and take up His reign.

   

  Do I completely understand all the above - not exactly - but it sure makes a lot of scripture sense to me.  And I'm just learning as I go . . .  and wow!  It's getting late here at the center of the world so y'all chat away while I prepare to have a nice sleep!

   

  Shalom y'all, 

  Patty

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 4:46 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] How does Jesus death unite the tribes into one?

   

  Hi Jessica,

   

      Thanks for sharing your take on it; but I've got to tell you, I'm still struggling with understanding how Jesus' death was so different - and why/how that 'difference' makes such an impact.  There were countless thousands of Jews (including many great Rabbis) who were horribly tortured and martyred by the Roman hordes.

   

      Some of the greatest Sages of the first and second centuries, (Rabi Akiva, Rabi Ishmael the Kohen HaGadol, Rabbi Chananya ben Tradyon, Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel, among scores of others, were horrifically tortured to death by the Roman scum.  Although their teachings are 'alive' wherever Torah is being learned - their deaths are not considered to have the 'impact' you describe, vis a vis, Jesus.

   

      We have nothing that Jesus himself wrote, and only various versions of things he was supposed to have said.  All of the sayings which, fits perfectly within the framework of 1st Century Jewish thought in the Land of Israel.  Jesus' teachings were very similar to some other Rabbis/teachers of that time (although not all - there was a wide variety of views).  That's what I'm struggling to understand, not to argue against - but to understand.  I'm not looking to 'prove' or 'disprove' anything - just trying to understand why so many feel the way you do....that Jesus' life and death made/make a HUGE difference in the world.

   

      And how, in any case, would his death unite the Tribes of Israel?  Does anyone have any ideas?  More perplexed then ever....can someone shed some light on this, for this tired guy in New York?  :-)

      

          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

   






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/215d40f4/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 10:31:35 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:31:35 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Message-ID: <d60.28b10842.354c8dd7@aol.com>

Hey Clyde - 
 
    You're very welcome - I really enjoyed  the year I spent working with Rav 
Binny, for the Torah he shared.  On top  of that, he tells the BEST stories!
 
    Oh, the Northern/Southern thing is  actually very simple: Divine irony!  
That y'all are from the North, and Lil  ol' Hanoch is a Southern Boy!  :-)  
:-)  HaShem is teasing  us, the whole time!
 
    Have a Shabbat Shalom pal  - 
 
           Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/bba39b70/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 10:55:31 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:55:31 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
Message-ID: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>

 
Shalom Y'all,
 
    Okay, today I have missed a single ray  of sunshine - so where is Betty 
hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss  you!!
 
    Don't let 'life' keep you too busy  (yes, I know, I should listen to 
myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that  you share on this list is 
indispensable - sorry, no days off for  you!!
 
    Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one  filled with relaxation and 
rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay -  don't forget!!  :-)
 
    Love ya,
          Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...







**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/b27708d2/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  2 11:08:50 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:08:50 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Message-ID: <c24.34e531c2.354c9692@aol.com>

Hanoch, Thanks to James Tabor and his striking article -  The Return of YHVH 
to Earth [and I proved it was on the mark through my own  study] I want to ask 
you, and of course it goes against the Christian  view, expecting the next 
big moment as the coming of the MBD. And that is  before there is a MBD, the 
return of YHVH to fulfill all that he declared to his  servants the prophets. So 
what is your view on that? Or the view of anyone  else for that matter?
 
Clyde



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/04b194fb/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:31:35 EDT
Size: 5728
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/04b194fb/attachment.mht 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  2 11:21:07 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:21:07 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
Message-ID: <cc1.32099ef1.354c9973@aol.com>

Hey Clyde,
 
    Let me see if I understand what you're  asking:  Will HaShem fulfill (or 
begin to fulfill) HIS promises prior to  the coming of the Mashiach Ben David? 
 I'm running out to shop and then get  my soup going, but I will try to get 
back to you before Shabbat.
 
    Hmmm.....another GREAT question!   Toda!
            Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/47c67b75/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri May  2 13:26:46 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 13:26:46 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] something is right
In-Reply-To: <4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>
	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>
	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>
	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>
	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca>
	<1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805021126w6800b8c3vb24e4561bc5714f0@mail.gmail.com>

Cornie,

I guess we haven't met.  I don't know what the Two House conference is.  BTW
I am interested in seeing your 70 questions.  Interesting that it is 70.
Did you plan it that way, or is that the way it turned out.

Kim

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:20 AM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:

>  Yes Kim I was at the Two House conference in Kansas City 2 years in a
> row, or 2 times. I was a member there. I got some stern reminders from the
> leader, for the way I admonished him. He once called me a snake that he had
> to light a grass fire to hunt me out. The reason I was so rough on him was
> because it seemed to me he as a leader was  the opposite of what i find in
> this group. I think I may be stepping out of proportion by mentioning this,
> coming very close if not altogether to lashon harah. (Any one feel free to
> admonish me for this, if that is what I am doing.) Just prior to this
> happening, I had a dream that was totally not myself in it . As a Mennonite
> I had taken a very strong non-resistant stand. In this dream however I was a
> soldier, it was a time of war. The group or side of the war I was in was up
> in a balcony like upstairs, It was lighted up and cozy up there, with a
> staircase on each side, we were looking over the balcony into what was not
> the inside of a building at all, it was as if it was dusk, and we could not
> see our enemy very clear, but there were a lot of people, we up on the
> balcony were the minority. All at once I saw a leading figure, using some
> not very good words against us, with a long sword in his hand, and very
> boldly started to come up the stairs. So I took a long lance some 20 feet
> long ancient spear I had no experience with anything in defense at war, and
> without fear of anything approached him on the top of the stairs, and he
> turned around and left.  It was after that dream, I came into some very
> earnest conversation with that leader through e-mails. He spread it all over
> the group, with some 300 people involved. Making me look like a real culprit
> . That is when I left Christianity.
>
>  I have written 2 books later. (Now please understand these books were not
> written in defiance of what I just wrote) of those two, One is titled
> "Israel, God's Covenant People". This was the title of a Christian tract one
> of my own daughters sent me, hoping this negative Jewish history would help
> me come back to Christianity.  The other one is really still in the making,
> by the title:
>
> *"Does Christianity Agree with the Torah (the Old Testament)?*
>
> *Reflections on the Current State of the Dominant World Religion"*
> and happens to be a dialogue form between a local Christian Pastor and
> myself. We are still at it now already for about a year and a half. In this
> dialogue we have tried to treat each other as friend's, with no one getting
> agitated even though we totally disagree. The Pastor is convinced that he
> will persuade me back to Christianity. I am asking him around 75 questions
> which he has mostly not been able to answer,  but seems to try to evade,
> although he agreed right from the start that since I did not have confidence
> in the New Testament any more, that he being a Seminar trained Pastor,
> claiming to have even studied the Hebrew, and so he claimed he could prove
> the messiah being Jesus out of the old Testament alone.
>
> I would be interested to know what you people would say in answer to these
> questions. And please understand, I am not claiming to be right. I want to
> be able to stand free of any evil charge before my maker in Judgment day.
> This writing contains about some 70 pages by now.
>
> Concerning printing out some of these dialogue articles picked out from
> you people, 40 pages by now,  I do this to share with my group who all do
> not have Internet. I use a lot of paper as a rule, printing is one thing I
> likely indulge in a bit.and I think I was only introduced to your dialogue
> around a week ago. I print out my own books when I have the time for it. I
> am overwhelmingly busy. But if anyone would be interested to help me answer
> those questions, I could e-mail you my dialogue with the Pastor.
>
>  Since I am working as a welder in day time, I went to bed early only to
> be wakened by a telephone call for my wife. But than I decided or felt
> something stirring inside of me, prompting me to go to my computer and get
> at these e-mails, only to spend the time typing this, since I am a 2 finger
> typer it takes me a while. Tomorrow we want to go to a funeral of one of my
> Aunt's, and I don't want to fall asleep in church, so I better retire.
>
> Shalom to all,
>
> Cornelius
>
>
>
> kim alvarado wrote:
>
> Cornie,
>
> Not sure if we've met or not.  Were you at the conference?
>
> I have been going through some difficult times, but HaShem is with me
> guiding my steps.  Some pretty amazing things have been happening.  Baruch
> HaShem!  He is in control.
>
> It sounds like you have been wading through some tough times too.  So glad
> that you found this group. As I believe I said in a previous email I have
> never felt as loved and accepted as I do in this group.  The thing is that
> you can't figure what we are all into, because we are all different.  We
> have different beliefs.  What we do all seem to have in common is a desire
> for Truth.  We are on a wonderful journey, led by HaShem.
>
> May Hashem Bless you and guide your footsteps.
>
> Kim
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Kim, I don't know if we ever met, it sounds like you have been
> > going through some deep water, not just ankle deep, or what? I have been
> > very busy checking all the e-mails before I ever as much as knew about this
> > dialoging group of such  friendly people.  I too have been through some
> > valley's in my like, so far I realize it has been HaShem's love that allowed
> > me to go through them.
> >
> > To all of you, now that I got hooked up with this group, I don't know
> > what to do with all these e-mails, I think I must have got around 100 today
> > alone, with over half of them from the Dialogue: I started to print out some
> > that I wanted to check out, and allow my little group to also look into, I
> > was overbooked with work and checking e-mails, and studying. That is 40
> > pages full without today's. Than I also got to hear the message on Sunday
> > night .
> >
> > Ross, I glean from your message that you are a real sincere teacher. I
> > have to admit that at this point I would have some questions. I told my wife
> > that it could be that I am now facing one of the most difficult cross-roads
> > in my life, why so? Because I sense a real warm and loving atmosphere in the
> > group. Had it not been for that humble warm atmosphere with you all, I would
> > have backed off as soon as I sensed that you believe that Jesus might after
> > all be the long waited for messiah. (as I also believed most of my life).
> >
> >  In the Our little group of about 1/2 dozen, only 4 of us left, (none of
> > my family included beside me), have been with the two house movement, as
> > messianic Jews, or Ephraimites, only to find ourselves deeply disappointed
> > possibly because of  the leadership. Anyone acquainted with Moshe
> > Kuniochowski and  the conferences in Kansas City? At the same time we became
> > quite much convinced after careful studying that the New Testament and the
> > Torah did not really seem to be led by the same Spirit of the God of Abraham
> > Isaac and Jacob.And were quite convinced that Jesus could not be the true
> > messiah. So far it seems to me you all seem to still have a high esteem for
> > the New Testament, so have we now thrown out the baby with the dirty bath
> > water?
> >
> >   It is only your warmth that I sensed so clear, and I don't know what
> > has actually led you all together, else than having experienced some deep
> > water to pass through as well. This is a bit overwhelming. I am trying to
> > get the jist out of what you all are really into. I mentioned earlier that I
> > may have had the pendulum swinging over too far , first from  leaving all
> > modern- ism, in mennonit-ism, to digging up my garden with a fork, in other
> > words, using only horses for power. We moved into the Jungles of Central
> > America. I didn't want our children to have a higher education than the bare
> > minimum to get by,  and to make a long story short, after 18 years in Belize
> > C.A. We came back to  Canada  with a family of 8 children, a sickly wife and
> > mother who had a hard time of it to cope. And had nothing to speak of, broke
> > financially as well as spiritually as it appeared.
> >
> > My wife was not healthy, part of it could be Bi-Polar or Schizophrenia.
> > Some of our children are struggling with the same. I believe though this has
> > all been a blessing in disguise. I sense that HaShem had a purpose for me to
> > be led through all this. I would likely not have searched so deep had it not
> > been for the difficulties that we have faced.
> >
> > Blessings from Cornelius Reimer
> >
> >
> > kim alvarado wrote:
> >
> >  Cornie,
> >
> > I have been away for a few days and have over 100 emails to catch up
> > on.  I just wanted to make sure to tell you, "Welcome, Welcome,Welcome"
> >
> > Kim
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Pat Robbins <
> > patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >  I accidentally hit "send," and I wasn't finished writing yet,
> > > Cornie!  You also sent me "Our Life's Story And My Journey To The Sabbath,"
> > > which I haven't finished yet, but I thank you so much for your generosity in
> > > having included that book as well.
> > >
> > > I'm so glad you were able to listen to Ross's teaching tonight.  I
> > > LOVE SUNDAY SHUL!!!!!  I just want to welcome you again to "Dialogue," and I
> > > hope you find it as huge a blessing as I do.
> > >
> > > Love,
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > >  *From:* Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:47 PM
> > >  *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
> > >
> > >  Yes, that's me!  I did buy your "Israel, G-d's Covenant People."
> > > Forgive me if I never acknowledged receiving it, Cornie.  I didn't find it a
> > > difficult read either.
> > >
> > >  *From:* Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:09 PM
> > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
> > >
> > >  Hey Pat, I had no problem at all hearing the message tonight. And
> > > likely because I did just that, I downloaded Windows Media Player to
> > > something higher than what I had.
> > >
> > >  So that 's who you are, so good to hear from you, and in a fellowship
> > > of loving people like these.  I remember you well. I think you even ordered
> > > one of my books. I think it was a kind of tough one to read, "Israel, God's
> > > Covenant People" right? I am working on rewriting  some of it to be easier
> > > to read. Or have you ever received it? I can not remember hearing from you
> > > later. If you never got it please let me know, because I think you paid for
> > > it, right?
> > >
> > > Cornie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pat Robbins wrote:
> > >
> > > Cornie, when you go to the Roots of Faith site, click "Listen Live."
> > > Then scroll down to a window titled "Listen to the Live Audio Feed."  Then
> > > look at the box to the right of that one and you'll see, "The Windows Media
> > > Format Stream Requires the FREE Windows Media Player."  Your computer must
> > > be version 9 or above (not sure what that means) and you just need to click
> > > the red writing that says, "Download and install Windows Media Player 9+."
> > > Then you'll be set up to listen!  I'd do that right now if you can so it
> > > will be all ready for you tonight.
> > >
> > > Hope it works!
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > >  *From:* Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
> > > *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:30 PM
> > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
> > >
> > >  Thank you Steve for inviting me into this group where something is
> > > right as it seems to me. I am not sure if I will be able to hear the message
> > > tonight, as it already seems to not work when I try to get in to listen to a
> > > prior message. But I will see. Sunday night is a good time for me to listen
> > > in on a message that is up-building, and in the first place led of HaShem.
> > >
> > > On the Sabbath day our group usually comes together, for Torah
> > > studies, and even for a noon  meal together. And against Torah laws, I have
> > > to drive about an hour to get there. That would have to change if I were to
> > > be able to listen in to the  Sabbath message with you people.
> > >
> > > Cornie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Mathe wrote:
> > >
> > > Cornie,
> > >
> > > Here are some ideas that may help, or at least how I see things.
> > >
> > > Am glad you joined this group, it has the main ingredients: seekers of
> > > G-d coupled with a lot of love of G-d and His seekers...
> > > There are other things in the offing and you will find out... HaShem
> > > is working on a lot of things and has begun to gather us in a big way... for
> > > now those of us in the "first contingent from the Valley of Dry Bones" are
> > > called to be pioneers, in setting the trend, in blazing a trail in what
> > > Jacob told us: "Gather yourselves together."  This group, is just one such
> > > group, where this injunction is being acted out.
> > >
> > > As for Jesus, I think his name and identity is being sorted out in our
> > > times and we are finding out the truth about him, Christianity, and a lot of
> > > other matters we need to know to navigate through the wilderness of isms,
> > > religions, doctrines and ideas. We all come form some form of Christianity,
> > > even if we were secular, since Christianity has pervaded the Western World
> > > and its principles have touched all of us to different degrees.  G-d has
> > > allowed that for a purpose and we will find that out in His good time.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately the "churchianity" mindset, of the "one true church" has
> > > not fostered love of fellow seekers. Persecutions have abounded to this day,
> > > e.g. your "shunning"
> > > by your own family. What a lot of 'church' people have not realized is
> > > the fact that the love they need to practice is G-d's *"chesed" *which
> > > is directly related to the *Covenant, *which historical Christianity
> > > has superceded with their "New Covenant" which ironically preaches love
> > > toward fellow man. While Christians have done a lot of good works, in the
> > > name of their central doctrine of "love," the important detail of that love
> > > being connected to the "Covenant" has eluded them.  Now that HaShem has
> > > begun to restore all things, chief among them His people Israel, we are
> > > called to return to the Covenant, which we as a people have cast away in
> > > ancient times. Others, who are and were not Israel, are called to join the
> > > returning Israelites.
> > >
> > > Part of this "restoration" is the hearing of His message, from
> > > whatever sources there are, the NT being one of them.  As such, as Ross
> > > says, many are being called, headed, gathered, and directed into the right
> > > direction from the teachings of the NT. To that may I add, is that we are
> > > being pointed to return to the Covenant, to major in the majors and not the
> > > minors, and to live authentic observant lives based on the Torah of  G-d.
> > > Shabbat keeping is one of the central tenets of the Covenant, and is the
> > > cornerstone of observance for all those who seek the G-d of Abraham, Isaac
> > > and Jacob.  Am sure that you will continue to be lead by the G-d of Avraham,
> > > and as such, to grow in that observance as we all are doing likewise,
> > > walking the "straight paths of the Torah."
> > >
> > > Welcome to Dialogue / Roots of Faith.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 01:50 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote:
> > >
> > > Thank you all who let yourself be heard on my behalf. Maybe I tried to
> > > get in somewhere that was not the way to enter, where I needed to use my
> > > e-mail and also my password. And I just did not seem to get through when I
> > > clicked "let me in". I still don't know what happened that I got in.
> > >
> > > But already I found some very interesting remarks, pointing back to
> > > the time of Jeshuah's days, that is as we read of it in the New Testament. I
> > > don't know how much time I will have, even to read what all comes over and
> > > into this dialogue. I am an uneducated  and quite old grandpa (72) with a
> > > Christian wife and 20 grand children. I am open to learn anything that is
> > > the truth, that has managed to keep me ignorant and blinded of it's deep
> > > truth. So this site seems to be  where this could happen if I am wrong.
> > >
> > > I was a dedicated Christian for most of my life, but have given that
> > > up at this point, although I still am more than ever dedicated and am in
> > > what I consider a warmer relationship with my maker, Hashem, than ever
> > > before. Most of my study comes from orthodox Judaism. (Not mainstream
> > > assimilated Judaism) My question is: Has my pendulum swung to far over when
> > > I have lost confidence in the New Testament as true authentic Word of G-d?
> > >
> > > I consider myself a Noahide at this point. And am not as religiously
> > > keeping to the Sabbath laws, as when I was in what I considered  messianic
> > > Judaism. I would like to hear none condemnatory advice, should I be wrong.
> > > Which will take a bit of grace for me to change from my present views. And
> > > it would probably take some wisdom to bring it across to me too. Shalom to
> > > all seekers of truth.
> > >
> > > Cornelius
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG.
> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
> > >
> > >
> > >   ------------------------------
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1403 - Release Date: 29/04/2008 7:26 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1407 - Release Date: 30/04/2008 11:35 AM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/bdacc926/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  2 17:39:04 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 08:09:04 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
In-Reply-To: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>
References: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>

Shabbat Shalom Everyone,
And what a glorious Shabbat it is. The sun is shining, the birds are singing, it is a crisp Autumn morning here in South Australia. 
Have a wonderful day.
Blessings from Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:25 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?


    
  Shalom Y'all,

      Okay, today I have missed a single ray of sunshine - so where is Betty hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss you!!

      Don't let 'life' keep you too busy (yes, I know, I should listen to myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that you share on this list is indispensable - sorry, no days off for you!!

      Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one filled with relaxation and rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay - don't forget!!  :-)

      Love ya,
            Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...









------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/949d5729/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Fri May  2 17:47:36 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 19:47:36 -0300
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
In-Reply-To: <5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
References: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>
	<5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <E502EB2273AC466E9CBBAE0E9376F58E@Beeblebrox>

Shabbat Shalom to you too, Jessica!  and All!

It is a glorious Shabbat evening up here in Canada  -  a clear, crisp, Spring evening, with hope in the air.
Thinking of you all (ya'll),
Sharon and Stephen


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 7:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?


  Shabbat Shalom Everyone,
  And what a glorious Shabbat it is. The sun is shining, the birds are singing, it is a crisp Autumn morning here in South Australia. 
  Have a wonderful day.
  Blessings from Jessica

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:25 AM
    Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?


      
    Shalom Y'all,

        Okay, today I have missed a single ray of sunshine - so where is Betty hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss you!!

        Don't let 'life' keep you too busy (yes, I know, I should listen to myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that you share on this list is indispensable - sorry, no days off for you!!

        Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one filled with relaxation and rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay - don't forget!!  :-)

        Love ya,
              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...









----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/1f90cddc/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Fri May  2 17:54:19 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 17:54:19 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] something is right
In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0805021126w6800b8c3vb24e4561bc5714f0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <042620080225.29645.48129284000A2CAE000073CD22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<4814E25D.90809@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS2C0E70E6B0AB282CCCD24BADF0@phx.gbl>	<481531C9.8050501@gninc.ca>	<BLU125-DS172DC36751F2A4AEF2761BADE0@phx.gbl>	<BLU125-DS28848E4A9A73A7095233DBADE0@phx.gbl>	<1c8dbb6e0804292351j1ce19dc8h36ea0761daf18918@mail.gmail.com>	<48193275.7020204@gninc.ca>	<1c8dbb6e0804302119o79b4b81dma668c1e42e701d5d@mail.gmail.com>	<4819612E.70701@gninc.ca>
	<1c8dbb6e0805021126w6800b8c3vb24e4561bc5714f0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <481B9B9B.7070906@gninc.ca>

Hi Kim

I have no clue who you all are, I thought maybe some of you had actually 
been going through the same route my little group and I took about 5 
years ago. I was so excited, finally I had come home. Those people came 
from all over the USA, Canada, Australia and I don't remember where from 
else. Oh yes there were even people from India. We went right into the 
Jewish customs of dressing, kepa, prayer shawl, zitzi's, blowing of 
Shofars etc. Jewish dancing and singing. There was much activity. We 
claimed to be the real Jews. For 250.00 I bought all the books that it 
took to become a Rabbi, for our group (according to their rules). But 
something was missing. We looked down on the Orthodox Jews, I guess I 
was quite ignorant about Judaism at that time, even though I really 
respected them. We were quite disappointed with the way people were 
treated when there was not a total agreement to especially the leader.

Kim you asked for the 70 questions. This is an article of 61 pages. Do 
you want me to send them to you in an attachment, or in segments in 
e-mail?  No I did not plan it that way, in fact there are 72 questions.

Cornie

 



kim alvarado wrote:
> Cornie,
>
> I guess we haven't met.  I don't know what the Two House conference 
> is.  BTW I am interested in seeing your 70 questions.  Interesting 
> that it is 70.  Did you plan it that way, or is that the way it turned 
> out.
>
> Kim
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:20 AM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca 
> <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Yes Kim I was at the Two House conference in Kansas City 2 years
>     in a row, or 2 times. I was a member there. I got some stern
>     reminders from the leader, for the way I admonished him. He once
>     called me a snake that he had to light a grass fire to hunt me
>     out. The reason I was so rough on him was because it seemed to me
>     he as a leader was  the opposite of what i find in this group. I
>     think I may be stepping out of proportion by mentioning this,
>     coming very close if not altogether to lashon harah. (Any one feel
>     free to admonish me for this, if that is what I am doing.) Just
>     prior to this happening, I had a dream that was totally not myself
>     in it . As a Mennonite I had taken a very strong non-resistant
>     stand. In this dream however I was a soldier, it was a time of
>     war. The group or side of the war I was in was up in a balcony
>     like upstairs, It was lighted up and cozy up there, with a
>     staircase on each side, we were looking over the balcony into what
>     was not the inside of a building at all, it was as if it was dusk,
>     and we could not see our enemy very clear, but there were a lot of
>     people, we up on the balcony were the minority. All at once I saw
>     a leading figure, using some not very good words against us, with
>     a long sword in his hand, and very boldly started to come up the
>     stairs. So I took a long lance some 20 feet long ancient spear I
>     had no experience with anything in defense at war, and without
>     fear of anything approached him on the top of the stairs, and he
>     turned around and left.  It was after that dream, I came into some
>     very earnest conversation with that leader through e-mails. He
>     spread it all over the group, with some 300 people involved.
>     Making me look like a real culprit . That is when I left Christianity.
>
>      I have written 2 books later. (Now please understand these books
>     were not written in defiance of what I just wrote) of those two,
>     One is titled  "Israel, God's Covenant People". This was the title
>     of a Christian tract one of my own daughters sent me, hoping this
>     negative Jewish history would help me come back to Christianity. 
>     The other one is really still in the making, by the title: 
>
>     *"Does Christianity Agree with the Torah (the Old Testament)?*
>
>     *Reflections on the Current State of the Dominant World Religion"*
>
>     and happens to be a dialogue form between a local Christian Pastor
>     and myself. We are still at it now already for about a year and a
>     half. In this dialogue we have tried to treat each other as
>     friend's, with no one getting agitated even though we totally
>     disagree. The Pastor is convinced that he will persuade me back to
>     Christianity. I am asking him around 75 questions which he has
>     mostly not been able to answer,  but seems to try to evade,
>     although he agreed right from the start that since I did not have
>     confidence in the New Testament any more, that he being a Seminar
>     trained Pastor, claiming to have even studied the Hebrew, and so
>     he claimed he could prove the messiah being Jesus out of the old
>     Testament alone.
>
>     I would be interested to know what you people would say in answer
>     to these questions. And please understand, I am not claiming to be
>     right. I want to be able to stand free of any evil charge before
>     my maker in Judgment day. This writing contains about some 70
>     pages by now.
>
>     Concerning printing out some of these dialogue articles picked out
>     from you people, 40 pages by now,  I do this to share with my
>     group who all do not have Internet. I use a lot of paper as a
>     rule, printing is one thing I likely indulge in a bit.and I think
>     I was only introduced to your dialogue around a week ago. I print
>     out my own books when I have the time for it. I am overwhelmingly
>     busy. But if anyone would be interested to help me answer those
>     questions, I could e-mail you my dialogue with the Pastor.
>
>      Since I am working as a welder in day time, I went to bed early
>     only to be wakened by a telephone call for my wife. But than I
>     decided or felt something stirring inside of me, prompting me to
>     go to my computer and get at these e-mails, only to spend the time
>     typing this, since I am a 2 finger typer it takes me a while.
>     Tomorrow we want to go to a funeral of one of my Aunt's, and I
>     don't want to fall asleep in church, so I better retire.
>
>     Shalom to all,
>
>     Cornelius
>
>
>
>     kim alvarado wrote:
>>     Cornie,
>>
>>     Not sure if we've met or not.  Were you at the conference? 
>>
>>     I have been going through some difficult times, but HaShem is
>>     with me guiding my steps.  Some pretty amazing things have been
>>     happening.  Baruch HaShem!  He is in control. 
>>
>>     It sounds like you have been wading through some tough times
>>     too.  So glad that you found this group. As I believe I said in a
>>     previous email I have never felt as loved and accepted as I do in
>>     this group.  The thing is that you can't figure what we are all
>>     into, because we are all different.  We have different beliefs. 
>>     What we do all seem to have in common is a desire for Truth.  We
>>     are on a wonderful journey, led by HaShem. 
>>
>>     May Hashem Bless you and guide your footsteps.
>>
>>     Kim
>>
>>     On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca
>>     <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>> wrote:
>>
>>         Thank you Kim, I don't know if we ever met, it sounds like
>>         you have been going through some deep water, not just ankle
>>         deep, or what? I have been very busy checking all the e-mails
>>         before I ever as much as knew about this dialoging group of
>>         such  friendly people.  I too have been through some valley's
>>         in my like, so far I realize it has been HaShem's love that
>>         allowed me to go through them.
>>
>>         To all of you, now that I got hooked up with this group, I
>>         don't know what to do with all these e-mails, I think I must
>>         have got around 100 today alone, with over half of them from
>>         the Dialogue: I started to print out some that I wanted to
>>         check out, and allow my little group to also look into, I was
>>         overbooked with work and checking e-mails, and studying. That
>>         is 40 pages full without today's. Than I also got to hear the
>>         message on Sunday night .
>>
>>         Ross, I glean from your message that you are a real sincere
>>         teacher. I have to admit that at this point I would have some
>>         questions. I told my wife that it could be that I am now
>>         facing one of the most difficult cross-roads in my life, why
>>         so? Because I sense a real warm and loving atmosphere in the
>>         group. Had it not been for that humble warm atmosphere with
>>         you all, I would have backed off as soon as I sensed that you
>>         believe that Jesus might after all be the long waited for
>>         messiah. (as I also believed most of my life).
>>
>>          In the Our little group of about 1/2 dozen, only 4 of us
>>         left, (none of my family included beside me), have been with
>>         the two house movement, as messianic Jews, or Ephraimites,
>>         only to find ourselves deeply disappointed possibly because
>>         of  the leadership. Anyone acquainted with Moshe Kuniochowski
>>         and  the conferences in Kansas City? At the same time we
>>         became quite much convinced after careful studying that the
>>         New Testament and the Torah did not really seem to be led by
>>         the same Spirit of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.And
>>         were quite convinced that Jesus could not be the true
>>         messiah. So far it seems to me you all seem to still have a
>>         high esteem for the New Testament, so have we now thrown out
>>         the baby with the dirty bath water?
>>
>>           It is only your warmth that I sensed so clear, and I don't
>>         know what has actually led you all together, else than having
>>         experienced some deep water to pass through as well. This is
>>         a bit overwhelming. I am trying to get the jist out of what
>>         you all are really into. I mentioned earlier that I may have
>>         had the pendulum swinging over too far , first from  leaving
>>         all modern- ism, in mennonit-ism, to digging up my garden
>>         with a fork, in other words, using only horses for power. We
>>         moved into the Jungles of Central America. I didn't want our
>>         children to have a higher education than the bare minimum to
>>         get by,  and to make a long story short, after 18 years in
>>         Belize C.A. We came back to  Canada  with a family of 8
>>         children, a sickly wife and mother who had a hard time of it
>>         to cope. And had nothing to speak of, broke financially as
>>         well as spiritually as it appeared.
>>
>>         My wife was not healthy, part of it could be Bi-Polar or
>>         Schizophrenia. Some of our children are struggling with the
>>         same. I believe though this has all been a blessing in
>>         disguise. I sense that HaShem had a purpose for me to be led
>>         through all this. I would likely not have searched so deep
>>         had it not been for the difficulties that we have faced.
>>
>>         Blessings from Cornelius Reimer
>>
>>
>>         kim alvarado wrote:
>>>         Cornie,
>>>
>>>         I have been away for a few days and have over 100 emails to
>>>         catch up on.  I just wanted to make sure to tell you,
>>>         "Welcome, Welcome,Welcome"
>>>
>>>         Kim
>>>
>>>         On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 9:53 PM, Pat Robbins
>>>         <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com
>>>         <mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             I accidentally hit "send," and I wasn't finished writing
>>>             yet, Cornie!  You also sent me "Our Life's Story And My
>>>             Journey To The Sabbath," which I haven't finished yet,
>>>             but I thank you so much for your generosity in having
>>>             included that book as well. 
>>>              
>>>             I'm so glad you were able to listen to Ross's teaching
>>>             tonight.  I LOVE SUNDAY SHUL!!!!!  I just want to
>>>             welcome you again to "Dialogue," and I hope you find it
>>>             as huge a blessing as I do. 
>>>              
>>>             Love,
>>>              
>>>             Pat
>>>
>>>             *From:* Pat Robbins <mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>>>             *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:47 PM
>>>             *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>             <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>>             *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>>
>>>             Yes, that's me!  I did buy your "Israel, G-d's Covenant
>>>             People."  Forgive me if I never acknowledged receiving
>>>             it, Cornie.  I didn't find it a difficult read either. 
>>>
>>>             *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
>>>             *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:09 PM
>>>             *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>             <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>>             *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>>
>>>             Hey Pat, I had no problem at all hearing the message
>>>             tonight. And likely because I did just that, I
>>>             downloaded Windows Media Player to something higher than
>>>             what I had.
>>>
>>>              So that 's who you are, so good to hear from you, and
>>>             in a fellowship of loving people like these.  I remember
>>>             you well. I think you even ordered one of my books. I
>>>             think it was a kind of tough one to read, "Israel, God's
>>>             Covenant People" right? I am working on rewriting  some
>>>             of it to be easier to read. Or have you ever received
>>>             it? I can not remember hearing from you later. If you
>>>             never got it please let me know, because I think you
>>>             paid for it, right?
>>>
>>>             Cornie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             Pat Robbins wrote:
>>>>             Cornie, when you go to the Roots of Faith site, click
>>>>             "Listen Live."  Then scroll down to a window titled
>>>>             "Listen to the Live Audio Feed."  Then look at the box
>>>>             to the right of that one and you'll see, "The Windows
>>>>             Media Format Stream Requires the FREE Windows Media
>>>>             Player."  Your computer must be version 9 or above (not
>>>>             sure what that means) and you just need to click the
>>>>             red writing that says, "Download and install Windows
>>>>             Media Player 9+."  Then you'll be set up to listen! 
>>>>             I'd do that right now if you can so it will be all
>>>>             ready for you tonight.
>>>>              
>>>>             Hope it works!
>>>>              
>>>>             Pat 
>>>>
>>>>             *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
>>>>             *Sent:* Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:30 PM
>>>>             *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>>>>             <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>>>>             *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] something is right
>>>>
>>>>             Thank you Steve for inviting me into this group where
>>>>             something is right as it seems to me. I am not sure if
>>>>             I will be able to hear the message tonight, as it
>>>>             already seems to not work when I try to get in to
>>>>             listen to a prior message. But I will see. Sunday night
>>>>             is a good time for me to listen in on a message that is
>>>>             up-building, and in the first place led of HaShem.
>>>>
>>>>             On the Sabbath day our group usually comes together,
>>>>             for Torah studies, and even for a noon  meal together.
>>>>             And against Torah laws, I have to drive about an hour
>>>>             to get there. That would have to change if I were to 
>>>>             be able to listen in to the  Sabbath message with you
>>>>             people.
>>>>
>>>>             Cornie
>>>>
>>>>              
>>>>
>>>>             Steve Mathe wrote:
>>>>>             Cornie,
>>>>>
>>>>>             Here are some ideas that may help, or at least how I
>>>>>             see things.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Am glad you joined this group, it has the main
>>>>>             ingredients: seekers of G-d coupled with a lot of love
>>>>>             of G-d and His seekers...
>>>>>             There are other things in the offing and you will find
>>>>>             out... HaShem is working on a lot of things and has
>>>>>             begun to gather us in a big way... for now those of us
>>>>>             in the "first contingent from the Valley of Dry Bones"
>>>>>             are called to be pioneers, in setting the trend, in
>>>>>             blazing a trail in what Jacob told us: "Gather
>>>>>             yourselves together."  This group, is just one such
>>>>>             group, where this injunction is being acted out.
>>>>>
>>>>>             As for Jesus, I think his name and identity is being
>>>>>             sorted out in our times and we are finding out the
>>>>>             truth about him, Christianity, and a lot of other
>>>>>             matters we need to know to navigate through the
>>>>>             wilderness of isms, religions, doctrines and ideas. We
>>>>>             all come form some form of Christianity, even if we
>>>>>             were secular, since Christianity has pervaded the
>>>>>             Western World and its principles have touched all of
>>>>>             us to different degrees.  G-d has allowed that for a
>>>>>             purpose and we will find that out in His good time.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Unfortunately the "churchianity" mindset, of the "one
>>>>>             true church" has not fostered love of fellow seekers.
>>>>>             Persecutions have abounded to this day, e.g. your
>>>>>             "shunning"
>>>>>             by your own family. What a lot of 'church' people have
>>>>>             not realized is the fact that the love they need to
>>>>>             practice is G-d's /"chesed" /which is directly related
>>>>>             to the /Covenant, /which historical Christianity has
>>>>>             superceded with their "New Covenant" which ironically
>>>>>             preaches love toward fellow man. While Christians have
>>>>>             done a lot of good works, in the name of their central
>>>>>             doctrine of "love," the important detail of that love
>>>>>             being connected to the "Covenant" has eluded them. 
>>>>>             Now that HaShem has begun to restore all things, chief
>>>>>             among them His people Israel, we are called to return
>>>>>             to the Covenant, which we as a people have cast away
>>>>>             in ancient times. Others, who are and were not Israel,
>>>>>             are called to join the returning Israelites.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Part of this "restoration" is the hearing of His
>>>>>             message, from whatever sources there are, the NT being
>>>>>             one of them.  As such, as Ross says, many are being
>>>>>             called, headed, gathered, and directed into the right
>>>>>             direction from the teachings of the NT. To that may I
>>>>>             add, is that we are being pointed to return to the
>>>>>             Covenant, to major in the majors and not the minors,
>>>>>             and to live authentic observant lives based on the
>>>>>             Torah of  G-d.  Shabbat keeping is one of the central
>>>>>             tenets of the Covenant, and is the cornerstone of
>>>>>             observance for all those who seek the G-d of Abraham,
>>>>>             Isaac and Jacob.  Am sure that you will continue to be
>>>>>             lead by the G-d of Avraham, and as such, to grow in
>>>>>             that observance as we all are doing likewise, walking
>>>>>             the "straight paths of the Torah."
>>>>>
>>>>>             Welcome to Dialogue / Roots of Faith.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Steve
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>             At 01:50 PM 4/26/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>             Thank you all who let yourself be heard on my behalf.
>>>>>>             Maybe I tried to get in somewhere that was not the
>>>>>>             way to enter, where I needed to use my e-mail and
>>>>>>             also my password. And I just did not seem to get
>>>>>>             through when I clicked "let me in". I still don't
>>>>>>             know what happened that I got in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             But already I found some very interesting remarks,
>>>>>>             pointing back to the time of Jeshuah's days, that is
>>>>>>             as we read of it in the New Testament. I don't know
>>>>>>             how much time I will have, even to read what all
>>>>>>             comes over and into this dialogue. I am an
>>>>>>             uneducated  and quite old grandpa (72) with a
>>>>>>             Christian wife and 20 grand children. I am open to
>>>>>>             learn anything that is the truth, that has managed to
>>>>>>             keep me ignorant and blinded of it's deep truth. So
>>>>>>             this site seems to be  where this could happen if I
>>>>>>             am wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             I was a dedicated Christian for most of my life, but
>>>>>>             have given that up at this point, although I still am
>>>>>>             more than ever dedicated and am in what I consider a
>>>>>>             warmer relationship with my maker, Hashem, than ever
>>>>>>             before. Most of my study comes from orthodox Judaism.
>>>>>>             (Not mainstream assimilated Judaism) My question is:
>>>>>>             Has my pendulum swung to far over when I have lost
>>>>>>             confidence in the New Testament as true authentic
>>>>>>             Word of G-d?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             I consider myself a Noahide at this point. And am not
>>>>>>             as religiously keeping to the Sabbath laws, as when I
>>>>>>             was in what I considered  messianic Judaism. I would
>>>>>>             like to hear none condemnatory advice, should I be
>>>>>>             wrong. Which will take a bit of grace for me to
>>>>>>             change from my present views. And it would probably
>>>>>>             take some wisdom to bring it across to me too. Shalom
>>>>>>             to all seekers of truth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             Cornelius
>>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>               
>>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>             No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>             Checked by AVG. 
>>>>>             Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
>>>>>               
>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>               
>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>             No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>             Checked by AVG. 
>>>>             Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 27/04/2008 9:39 AM
>>>>               
>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>           
>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>         No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>         Checked by AVG. 
>>>         Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1403 - Release Date: 29/04/2008 7:26 AM
>>>           
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>       
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG. 
>>     Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.6/1407 - Release Date: 30/04/2008 11:35 AM
>>       
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1411 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 8:02 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080502/ef0bf4ce/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 03:51:37 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 18:21:37 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
Message-ID: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC>

Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
Baruch HaShem,
Jessica
PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/c9cd066e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 19:21:13 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:21:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl>

Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

My love to all,

Pat 


From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
Baruch HaShem,
Jessica
PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/8a6f1ef6/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 19:46:11 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 10:16:11 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC>

Dear Pat,
Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
Blessings,
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

  I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

  My love to all,

  Pat 


  From: Jessica 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
  Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
  May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
  Baruch HaShem,
  Jessica
  PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

  ""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

  As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

  My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

  It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

  I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
  I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

  This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

  Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

  My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/1067e3b6/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 21:16:29 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:16:29 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>

Shavua tov to all - Best wishes for a great  week......
 
Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all  know Rav Kahane was right...

Speech by the IDF Chief of the General  Staff for the ?March of the Living? 
- Mar 01, 2008  
Israpundit 

I am honored to be here today and to share this  significant experience with 
you. I will begin in Hebrew and will say a few words  in English later on in 
my address.

Here, on this cursed land, saturated  with the blood of our brothers and 
sisters, descendants of the Jewish  nation;

Here, in the Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Camp, the most evil place  on the face 
of the planet, where our people, whose only crime was being Jewish,  were 
tortured and murdered in gas chambers and crematoria;

Here, in the  place where the Nazi oppressor reduced our humanity to serial 
numbers - no more  names, no more faces, no identity - all that remained was a 
number branded on  the forearm;

Here in this most dreadful place, I stand on Holocaust  Martyrs and Heroes 
Remembrance Day, as the commander of the Israel Defense  Forces.

With hundreds of Witnesses in Uniform by my side - joining the  thousands of 
representatives of the IDF who come here every year, commanders of  the ground 
forces, the Air Force and the Navy - the defending force of the  Jewish 
people, reborn in its land - with tight lips, a coarse voice and tears in  my eyes, 
yet still standing tall - I salute to the ashes of our people and vow:  ?
Never Again.?

We, soldiers of the IDF, emissaries of a country and of a  nation, stand here 
today wearing the IDF uniform and carrying the flag of the  State of Israel 
with pride in the name of the tens of thousands of the IDF  warriors and 
commanders. We consider ourselves the executor of the last will and  testament, the 
dream and the silent prayer of our six million Jewish brothers  and sisters 
whose existence was brutally expunged by the Nazi  oppressor.

Major B?naya Rein, may his memory be blessed, who was killed  in the Second 
Lebanon War, made the following journal entry during his visit to  Poland in 
July of the year 2000:

?I?ve arrived home, to the cemetery of  the Jewish people; the cemetery of 
my grandfather?s family and the cemetery of  my grandmother?s family. 
Throughout my entire journey in Poland, death has  followed me. However, I know that 
this death has produced lives and these lives  include me, you, all of us.

?It is these lives which have provided me  with the opportunity to be a 
solider in the State of Israel. It is these lives  which have granted me the 
privilege to, as an Israeli solider from the State of  Israel, represent all of 
those who have lived and are now gone?.

>From  here, on the soil of Auschwitz, next to thousands of representatives of 
the  Jewish Diaspora, we join the commemoration of the legacy of the millions 
who  perished, calling to the nations of the world and their  governments:

?Learn the lesson of this most terrible horror, and let not  its seeds sprout 
anew. Fight Anti-Semitism and racism of any kind wherever they  are, and do 
all that is necessary to prevent the propagation of the violence in  all its 
forms.

Sixty-three years have passed since the end of the most  horrible war 
humankind has ever known. Sixty-three years after the atrocity. The  Star of David is 
no longer a mark of disgrace, but a symbol and a sign of the  resurrection of 
the Jewish people. As the commander of the Israel Defense  Forces, the 
fighting force of the mighty Jewish State, I stand here with pride  and honor and 
pledge: ?Never Again!? Never again shall we stand helpless, crying  for the 
mercy of others. Never again shall we beg to be defended. Never again  shall we 
allow our sons and daughters, our parents and our grandparents to be  erased 
from the face of the earth. Never again shall the frightened eyes of  Jewish 
children look with ghastly dread through the barbed-wire fences of  concentration 
camps. Never!

We who have had the privilege of seeing the  establishment and the blossoming 
of the State of Israel; we, who have been  entrusted with the country?s fate, 
know that if we had had our country then, in  those somber days, the 
Holocaust of the Jewish people would not have taken  place. We remember, and will 
never forget, that from the killing and the  destruction, from the ashes and the 
despair, we have risen to establish not only  the Jewish State, but the 
military force that will forever provide security for  the Jewish people, protecting 
it from any future attempts of persecution,  torture and destruction.

These days, after sixty years of independence,  the existence of an 
independent Jewish state is not a fact that should be taken  for granted. Even today, 
in our region of the world, voices are heard calling  for the destruction of 
the State of Israel. Even today, we have to continue the  struggle for our right 
to maintain a national home and safe haven for the Jewish  people in their 
land.

We have learned our lesson. We take threats of  leaders calling for the 
destruction of Israel very seriously.

>From this  sense of deep responsibility for our continued existence as a 
people in our land  and for the continuity of our heritage, we have no choice but 
to continue the  struggle. Since we are fighting for our very existence, we 
cannot afford to grow  weary or be deterred in our struggle.

In the words of Mordechai  Anielewicz, commander of the Warsaw Ghetto 
Uprising in his last letter on May  8th, 1943, sixty-five years ago this week: ?It is 
impossible to put into words  what we have been through. One thing is clear, 
what happened exceeded our  boldest dreams. The Germans ran twice from the 
ghetto. One of our companies held  out for 40 minutes, and another for more than 
six hours. The mine set in the  ?brushmakers? area exploded. Self-defense in 
the ghetto will be a reality.I have  been a witness to the magnificent, heroic 
fighting of Jewish men in  battle?.

Two days ago, I laid a wreath and saluted at the doorstep of the  bunker 
where he commanded the uprising at Mila 18 in Warsaw. Now, I would like  to 
dedicate some words to our colleagues from around the world who stand here  with us:

I stand here today, in this heartbreaking spot, as the commander  of the army 
of the Jewish Nation. In the name of the Israel Defense Forces I  salute the 
six million Jews who were annihilated by the Nazis and their  collaborators. I 
vow to uphold the responsibility of the Israel Defense Forces -  never again 
to allow Jewish blood to be spilled in vain. May the memory of those  who 
perished in the Holocaust be forever blessed and remembered.

A people  which does not know or honor its past, shrouds its future in 
uncertainty.  Therefore, it is crucial that new generations of IDF soldiers and 
officers make  this sacred march in honor and remembrance of our persecuted  
ancestors.

Standing here, on this cursed land that has witnessed the most  terrible of 
horrors in human history, I call upon all nations? leaders to remove  human 
hatred from the face of the earth; to act determinedly to erase  anti-Semitism 
around the world, preventing it from ever gaining force. Above  all, each and 
every one of us must do their utmost to ensure that never again  will we walk 
alone.

Here on this cursed ground, from which still cry the  voices of our slain 
brothers, and as commander of the Israel Defense Forces of  the state of the 
Jewish people, I salute our six million brothers and sisters,  who have been 
persecuted, deported, tortured and cruelly murdered, and swear  that ?Jewish blood 
shall never again be spilled in vain!?

Blessed be the  memory of those who perished in the Holocaust! 






3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I  Phone: 913.648.0022 I 
Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards  compliant browsers. If your browser is 
not standards compliant, download one _here_ 
(http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/) .
Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for  Israel. 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/6ed61503/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 21:23:48 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 02:23:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080223.1174.481D1E28000A0D380000049622230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Shauva Tov Hanoch.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


   Shavua tov to all - Best wishes for a great week......

Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

Speech by the IDF Chief of the General Staff for the ???March of the Living??? 
- Mar 01, 2008 
Israpundit 

I am honored to be here today and to share this significant experience with you. I will begin in Hebrew and will say a few words in English later on in my address.

Here, on this cursed land, saturated with the blood of our brothers and sisters, descendants of the Jewish nation;

Here, in the Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Camp, the most evil place on the face of the planet, where our people, whose only crime was being Jewish, were tortured and murdered in gas chambers and crematoria;

Here, in the place where the Nazi oppressor reduced our humanity to serial numbers - no more names, no more faces, no identity - all that remained was a number branded on the forearm;

Here in this most dreadful place, I stand on Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Remembrance Day, as the commander of the Israel Defense Forces.

With hundreds of Witnesses in Uniform by my side - joining the thousands of representatives of the IDF who come here every year, commanders of the ground forces, the Air Force and the Navy - the defending force of the Jewish people, reborn in its land - with tight lips, a coarse voice and tears in my eyes, yet still standing tall - I salute to the ashes of our people and vow: ???Never Again.???

We, soldiers of the IDF, emissaries of a country and of a nation, stand here today wearing the IDF uniform and carrying the flag of the State of Israel with pride in the name of the tens of thousands of the IDF warriors and commanders. We consider ourselves the executor of the last will and testament, the dream and the silent prayer of our six million Jewish brothers and sisters whose existence was brutally expunged by the Nazi oppressor.

Major B???naya Rein, may his memory be blessed, who was killed in the Second Lebanon War, made the following journal entry during his visit to Poland in July of the year 2000:

???I???ve arrived home, to the cemetery of the Jewish people; the cemetery of my grandfather???s family and the cemetery of my grandmother???s family. Throughout my entire journey in Poland, death has followed me. However, I know that this death has produced lives and these lives include me, you, all of us.

???It is these lives which have provided me with the opportunity to be a solider in the State of Israel. It is these lives which have granted me the privilege to, as an Israeli solider from the State of Israel, represent all of those who have lived and are now gone???.

>From here, on the soil of Auschwitz, next to thousands of representatives of the Jewish Diaspora, we join the commemoration of the legacy of the millions who perished, calling to the nations of the world and their governments:

???Learn the lesson of this most terrible horror, and let not its seeds sprout anew. Fight Anti-Semitism and racism of any kind wherever they are, and do all that is necessary to prevent the propagation of the violence in all its forms.

Sixty-three years have passed since the end of the most horrible war humankind has ever known. Sixty-three years after the atrocity. The Star of David is no longer a mark of disgrace, but a symbol and a sign of the resurrection of the Jewish people. As the commander of the Israel Defense Forces, the fighting force of the mighty Jewish State, I stand here with pride and honor and pledge: ???Never Again!??? Never again shall we stand helpless, crying for the mercy of others. Never again shall we beg to be defended. Never again shall we allow our sons and daughters, our parents and our grandparents to be erased from the face of the earth. Never again shall the frightened eyes of Jewish children look with ghastly dread through the barbed-wire fences of concentration camps. Never!

We who have had the privilege of seeing the establishment and the blossoming of the State of Israel; we, who have been entrusted with the country???s fate, know that if we had had our country then, in those somber days, the Holocaust of the Jewish people would not have taken place. We remember, and will never forget, that from the killing and the destruction, from the ashes and the despair, we have risen to establish not only the Jewish State, but the military force that will forever provide security for the Jewish people, protecting it from any future attempts of persecution, torture and destruction.

These days, after sixty years of independence, the existence of an independent Jewish state is not a fact that should be taken for granted. Even today, in our region of the world, voices are heard calling for the destruction of the State of Israel. Even today, we have to continue the struggle for our right to maintain a national home and safe haven for the Jewish people in their land.

We have learned our lesson. We take threats of leaders calling for the destruction of Israel very seriously.

>From this sense of deep responsibility for our continued existence as a people in our land and for the continuity of our heritage, we have no choice but to continue the struggle. Since we are fighting for our very existence, we cannot afford to grow weary or be deterred in our struggle.

In the words of Mordechai Anielewicz, commander of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in his last letter on May 8th, 1943, sixty-five years ago this week: ???It is impossible to put into words what we have been through. One thing is clear, what happened exceeded our boldest dreams. The Germans ran twice from the ghetto. One of our companies held out for 40 minutes, and another for more than six hours. The mine set in the ???brushmakers??? area exploded. Self-defense in the ghetto will be a reality.I have been a witness to the magnificent, heroic fighting of Jewish men in battle???.

Two days ago, I laid a wreath and saluted at the doorstep of the bunker where he commanded the uprising at Mila 18 in Warsaw. Now, I would like to dedicate some words to our colleagues from around the world who stand here with us:

I stand here today, in this heartbreaking spot, as the commander of the army of the Jewish Nation. In the name of the Israel Defense Forces I salute the six million Jews who were annihilated by the Nazis and their collaborators. I vow to uphold the responsibility of the Israel Defense Forces - never again to allow Jewish blood to be spilled in vain. May the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust be forever blessed and remembered.

A people which does not know or honor its past, shrouds its future in uncertainty. Therefore, it is crucial that new generations of IDF soldiers and officers make this sacred march in honor and remembrance of our persecuted ancestors.

Standing here, on this cursed land that has witnessed the most terrible of horrors in human history, I call upon all nations??? leaders to remove human hatred from the face of the earth; to act determinedly to erase anti-Semitism around the world, preventing it from ever gaining force. Above all, each and every one of us must do their utmost to ensure that never again will we walk alone.

Here on this cursed ground, from which still cry the voices of our slain brothers, and as commander of the Israel Defense Forces of the state of the Jewish people, I salute our six million brothers and sisters, who have been persecuted, deported, tortured and cruelly murdered, and swear that ???Jewish blood shall never again be spilled in vain!???

Blessed be the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust! 







3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here.
Website copyright ?? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. 






Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/8ac49068/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 21:29:20 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:29:20 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Worth reading and thinking about....
Message-ID: <be0.3264ca46.354e7980@aol.com>

Shavua tov to all - 
 
    This was on a site, written by someone  after visiting Yad Vashem, 
Israel's memorial to the victims of the Holocaust -  3,000,000 of whom (still!) 
remain unnamed, unrecorded....
 
 
Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all  know Rav Kahane was right...



Jerusalem Watchman, April 30, 2008   
Who were you, dark and
Beautiful girl,
Your  limpid pools unplumbable?
What did you see; what images rushed upon your  fear-filled gaze
To stay, indelible in your mind
Until erased by  death?
Who were you? What joy was robbed
And wrenched from those who loved  you,
Those whose hands had once stroked your soft,
Sweet hair. And who you  once
Made smile?

[Thoughts provoked on a recent visit to a  Yad Vashem gallery of Holocaust 
victims]




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/e97bd5a6/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 21:29:44 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:29:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>
References: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS62632929CB602FDFD5B24BAD40@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Hanoch.


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:16 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


   Shavua tov to all - Best wishes for a great week......

Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

Speech by the IDF Chief of the General Staff for the ?March of the Living? 
- Mar 01, 2008 
Israpundit 

I am honored to be here today and to share this significant experience with you. I will begin in Hebrew and will say a few words in English later on in my address.

Here, on this cursed land, saturated with the blood of our brothers and sisters, descendants of the Jewish nation;

Here, in the Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Camp, the most evil place on the face of the planet, where our people, whose only crime was being Jewish, were tortured and murdered in gas chambers and crematoria;

Here, in the place where the Nazi oppressor reduced our humanity to serial numbers - no more names, no more faces, no identity - all that remained was a number branded on the forearm;

Here in this most dreadful place, I stand on Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Remembrance Day, as the commander of the Israel Defense Forces.

With hundreds of Witnesses in Uniform by my side - joining the thousands of representatives of the IDF who come here every year, commanders of the ground forces, the Air Force and the Navy - the defending force of the Jewish people, reborn in its land - with tight lips, a coarse voice and tears in my eyes, yet still standing tall - I salute to the ashes of our people and vow: ?Never Again.?

We, soldiers of the IDF, emissaries of a country and of a nation, stand here today wearing the IDF uniform and carrying the flag of the State of Israel with pride in the name of the tens of thousands of the IDF warriors and commanders. We consider ourselves the executor of the last will and testament, the dream and the silent prayer of our six million Jewish brothers and sisters whose existence was brutally expunged by the Nazi oppressor.

Major B?naya Rein, may his memory be blessed, who was killed in the Second Lebanon War, made the following journal entry during his visit to Poland in July of the year 2000:

?I?ve arrived home, to the cemetery of the Jewish people; the cemetery of my grandfather?s family and the cemetery of my grandmother?s family. Throughout my entire journey in Poland, death has followed me. However, I know that this death has produced lives and these lives include me, you, all of us.

?It is these lives which have provided me with the opportunity to be a solider in the State of Israel. It is these lives which have granted me the privilege to, as an Israeli solider from the State of Israel, represent all of those who have lived and are now gone?.

>From here, on the soil of Auschwitz, next to thousands of representatives of the Jewish Diaspora, we join the commemoration of the legacy of the millions who perished, calling to the nations of the world and their governments:

?Learn the lesson of this most terrible horror, and let not its seeds sprout anew. Fight Anti-Semitism and racism of any kind wherever they are, and do all that is necessary to prevent the propagation of the violence in all its forms.

Sixty-three years have passed since the end of the most horrible war humankind has ever known. Sixty-three years after the atrocity. The Star of David is no longer a mark of disgrace, but a symbol and a sign of the resurrection of the Jewish people. As the commander of the Israel Defense Forces, the fighting force of the mighty Jewish State, I stand here with pride and honor and pledge: ?Never Again!? Never again shall we stand helpless, crying for the mercy of others. Never again shall we beg to be defended. Never again shall we allow our sons and daughters, our parents and our grandparents to be erased from the face of the earth. Never again shall the frightened eyes of Jewish children look with ghastly dread through the barbed-wire fences of concentration camps. Never!

We who have had the privilege of seeing the establishment and the blossoming of the State of Israel; we, who have been entrusted with the country?s fate, know that if we had had our country then, in those somber days, the Holocaust of the Jewish people would not have taken place. We remember, and will never forget, that from the killing and the destruction, from the ashes and the despair, we have risen to establish not only the Jewish State, but the military force that will forever provide security for the Jewish people, protecting it from any future attempts of persecution, torture and destruction.

These days, after sixty years of independence, the existence of an independent Jewish state is not a fact that should be taken for granted. Even today, in our region of the world, voices are heard calling for the destruction of the State of Israel. Even today, we have to continue the struggle for our right to maintain a national home and safe haven for the Jewish people in their land.

We have learned our lesson. We take threats of leaders calling for the destruction of Israel very seriously.

>From this sense of deep responsibility for our continued existence as a people in our land and for the continuity of our heritage, we have no choice but to continue the struggle. Since we are fighting for our very existence, we cannot afford to grow weary or be deterred in our struggle.

In the words of Mordechai Anielewicz, commander of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in his last letter on May 8th, 1943, sixty-five years ago this week: ?It is impossible to put into words what we have been through. One thing is clear, what happened exceeded our boldest dreams. The Germans ran twice from the ghetto. One of our companies held out for 40 minutes, and another for more than six hours. The mine set in the ?brushmakers? area exploded. Self-defense in the ghetto will be a reality.I have been a witness to the magnificent, heroic fighting of Jewish men in battle?.

Two days ago, I laid a wreath and saluted at the doorstep of the bunker where he commanded the uprising at Mila 18 in Warsaw. Now, I would like to dedicate some words to our colleagues from around the world who stand here with us:

I stand here today, in this heartbreaking spot, as the commander of the army of the Jewish Nation. In the name of the Israel Defense Forces I salute the six million Jews who were annihilated by the Nazis and their collaborators. I vow to uphold the responsibility of the Israel Defense Forces - never again to allow Jewish blood to be spilled in vain. May the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust be forever blessed and remembered.

A people which does not know or honor its past, shrouds its future in uncertainty. Therefore, it is crucial that new generations of IDF soldiers and officers make this sacred march in honor and remembrance of our persecuted ancestors.

Standing here, on this cursed land that has witnessed the most terrible of horrors in human history, I call upon all nations? leaders to remove human hatred from the face of the earth; to act determinedly to erase anti-Semitism around the world, preventing it from ever gaining force. Above all, each and every one of us must do their utmost to ensure that never again will we walk alone.

Here on this cursed ground, from which still cry the voices of our slain brothers, and as commander of the Israel Defense Forces of the state of the Jewish people, I salute our six million brothers and sisters, who have been persecuted, deported, tortured and cruelly murdered, and swear that ?Jewish blood shall never again be spilled in vain!?

Blessed be the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust! 








3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997
This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here.
Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/ae7ffb33/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 21:46:48 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:46:48 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <c2a.25856ef5.354e7d98@aol.com>

You too John, and everyone -   I expected to log on  tonight and find a 
hundred messages!!  I guess everyone was napping  today!  :-)
 
 I spent a quite a number of hours reading and studying  it was very, very, 
productive.  Hope y'all had a great Shabbat!  I'm  filled with 
inspiration...tough to NOT spring into 'action' tonight...I need to  cultivate some patience...
 
          Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/5d0ec07d/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 21:48:54 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:48:54 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com>

You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a  restful, 
rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!
 
              Hanoch the Lil  Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was  right...




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/90c4d0e5/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 21:49:14 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:49:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl>

Have left a message for Rabbi Nati.  Again, thank you, Jessica. ~ Pat  



From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Dear Pat,
Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
Blessings,
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

  I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

  My love to all,

  Pat 


  From: Jessica 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
  Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
  May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
  Baruch HaShem,
  Jessica
  PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

  ""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

  As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

  My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

  It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

  I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
  I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

  This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

  Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

  My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/c7540805/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 21:54:17 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 22:54:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>

I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/517e2274/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:00:54 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:00:54 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <c2a.25856ef5.354e7d98@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080300.7298.481D26E4000AD89D00001C8222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Yeah, my Blackberry usually starts playing a symphony by now.

We had a good Shabbat too.  Joe Good taught today and Ross was there as well.  We discussed some plans for Sukkote.  Joe taught a really great lesson.  I'm sure Dave will post it soon.

I'm getting ready for tomorrow.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


You too John, and everyone -   I expected to log on tonight and find a hundred messages!!  I guess everyone was napping today!  :-)

 I spent a quite a number of hours reading and studying it was very, very, productive.  Hope y'all had a great Shabbat!  I'm filled with inspiration...tough to NOT spring into 'action' tonight...I need to cultivate some patience...

          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0edea3ab/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 22:04:49 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:04:49 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <c7b.2f33751a.354e81d1@aol.com>

May tomorrow bring what we all pray it will for  us...individually, as well 
as collectively......
 
    B'Ahava,
         Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/4ca4ea34/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 22:09:50 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:09:50 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
Message-ID: <cd7.2e8a9d0d.354e82fe@aol.com>

Shalom Jessica,
 
    Shavua tov, and a boker tov (Sunday!),  too!  Who is Rabbi Nati?  I'm not 
familiar with him, although what  he's describing (harassment, interrogation, 
intimidation, etc) have happened to  many, many of my friends.   My teacher, 
Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir  Kahane (May HaShem avenge his blood) used to say 
that the "'real' war in Israel  was against the Hellenists."  I don't doubt 
that this is part of  it...
 
    May HaShem have mercy on ALL HIS  people, and bring the Geula - the final 
redemption, NOW....
 
    Very best regards,
           Hanoch the Lil  Lion of Judah




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/eb628439/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 22:11:56 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:41:56 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl><6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <443AE5287C564AF183633CE66CC18686@JessicaPC>

Blessings Pat.
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Have left a message for Rabbi Nati.  Again, thank you, Jessica. ~ Pat  



  From: Jessica 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:46 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Dear Pat,
  Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
  I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
  Blessings,
  Jessica

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Pat Robbins 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


    Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

    I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

    My love to all,

    Pat 


    From: Jessica 
    Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


    Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
    Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
    May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
    Baruch HaShem,
    Jessica
    PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

    ""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

    As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

    My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

    It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

    I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
    I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

    This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

    Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

    My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/72cef80f/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:14:22 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:14:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Pat,

Shavua Tov to you as well.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/b60860db/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 22:14:38 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:44:38 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <050420080300.7298.481D26E4000AD89D00001C8222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050420080300.7298.481D26E4000AD89D00001C8222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <3B50FE44DEFA4865B29371F73840923D@JessicaPC>

Hi John,
I'm hanging out for that posting - so I hope Dave gets it up sooooon.
Jessica
PS: I missed you guys yesterday, but like Hanoch I also got stuck into some serious and productive study. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:30 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  Yeah, my Blackberry usually starts playing a symphony by now.

  We had a good Shabbat too.  Joe Good taught today and Ross was there as well.  We discussed some plans for Sukkote.  Joe taught a really great lesson.  I'm sure Dave will post it soon.

  I'm getting ready for tomorrow.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


    You too John, and everyone -   I expected to log on tonight and find a hundred messages!!  I guess everyone was napping today!  :-)

     I spent a quite a number of hours reading and studying it was very, very, productive.  Hope y'all had a great Shabbat!  I'm filled with inspiration...tough to NOT spring into 'action' tonight...I need to cultivate some patience...

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/3cc469d4/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:16:48 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:16:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <443AE5287C564AF183633CE66CC18686@JessicaPC>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl><6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<443AE5287C564AF183633CE66CC18686@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <050420080316.534.481D2A9E000024CC0000021622230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Shavua Tov Jessica.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


Blessings Pat.
Jessica
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pat Robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Have left a message for Rabbi Nati.  Again, thank you, Jessica. ~ Pat  



From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Dear Pat,
Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
Blessings,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pat Robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

My love to all,

Pat 


From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
Baruch HaShem,
Jessica
PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of literal interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""



_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/90e0b611/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 22:20:04 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:20:04 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
Message-ID: <c15.12edd175.354e8564@aol.com>

 
Shavua tov Betty!
 
    We all miss you - so where are you  hiding?  I don't have the time to 
come down to Texas this week to search  for you, so please speak up now!  :-)  
 
    And if I have to come to  Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty 
sight!
 
    Luv ya,
              Hanoch the Lil  Lion of Judah






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/5d49c1fc/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 22:22:14 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:52:14 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>
References: <bc8.2b0cddb1.354e767d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4B7BCD2941B644D6A7D0A8A6B9490FF0@JessicaPC>

Thank you Hanoch for this post. I have read some other comments that Gabi Ashkenazi made, but this is excellent. I just hope and pray that  the Israeli government and other 'leftists' are overpowered by the Ruach HaKodesh and begin to work FOR HaShem rather than AGAINST Him. For the sake of His Name and for the sake of His Holy People. May there be a miracle in Israel this year.
Shalom,
Jessica


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:46 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


     Shavua tov to all - Best wishes for a great week......

  Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

  Speech by the IDF Chief of the General Staff for the ?March of the Living? 
  - Mar 01, 2008 
  Israpundit 

  I am honored to be here today and to share this significant experience with you. I will begin in Hebrew and will say a few words in English later on in my address.

  Here, on this cursed land, saturated with the blood of our brothers and sisters, descendants of the Jewish nation;

  Here, in the Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Camp, the most evil place on the face of the planet, where our people, whose only crime was being Jewish, were tortured and murdered in gas chambers and crematoria;

  Here, in the place where the Nazi oppressor reduced our humanity to serial numbers - no more names, no more faces, no identity - all that remained was a number branded on the forearm;

  Here in this most dreadful place, I stand on Holocaust Martyrs and Heroes Remembrance Day, as the commander of the Israel Defense Forces.

  With hundreds of Witnesses in Uniform by my side - joining the thousands of representatives of the IDF who come here every year, commanders of the ground forces, the Air Force and the Navy - the defending force of the Jewish people, reborn in its land - with tight lips, a coarse voice and tears in my eyes, yet still standing tall - I salute to the ashes of our people and vow: ?Never Again.?

  We, soldiers of the IDF, emissaries of a country and of a nation, stand here today wearing the IDF uniform and carrying the flag of the State of Israel with pride in the name of the tens of thousands of the IDF warriors and commanders. We consider ourselves the executor of the last will and testament, the dream and the silent prayer of our six million Jewish brothers and sisters whose existence was brutally expunged by the Nazi oppressor.

  Major B?naya Rein, may his memory be blessed, who was killed in the Second Lebanon War, made the following journal entry during his visit to Poland in July of the year 2000:

  ?I?ve arrived home, to the cemetery of the Jewish people; the cemetery of my grandfather?s family and the cemetery of my grandmother?s family. Throughout my entire journey in Poland, death has followed me. However, I know that this death has produced lives and these lives include me, you, all of us.

  ?It is these lives which have provided me with the opportunity to be a solider in the State of Israel. It is these lives which have granted me the privilege to, as an Israeli solider from the State of Israel, represent all of those who have lived and are now gone?.

  From here, on the soil of Auschwitz, next to thousands of representatives of the Jewish Diaspora, we join the commemoration of the legacy of the millions who perished, calling to the nations of the world and their governments:

  ?Learn the lesson of this most terrible horror, and let not its seeds sprout anew. Fight Anti-Semitism and racism of any kind wherever they are, and do all that is necessary to prevent the propagation of the violence in all its forms.

  Sixty-three years have passed since the end of the most horrible war humankind has ever known. Sixty-three years after the atrocity. The Star of David is no longer a mark of disgrace, but a symbol and a sign of the resurrection of the Jewish people. As the commander of the Israel Defense Forces, the fighting force of the mighty Jewish State, I stand here with pride and honor and pledge: ?Never Again!? Never again shall we stand helpless, crying for the mercy of others. Never again shall we beg to be defended. Never again shall we allow our sons and daughters, our parents and our grandparents to be erased from the face of the earth. Never again shall the frightened eyes of Jewish children look with ghastly dread through the barbed-wire fences of concentration camps. Never!

  We who have had the privilege of seeing the establishment and the blossoming of the State of Israel; we, who have been entrusted with the country?s fate, know that if we had had our country then, in those somber days, the Holocaust of the Jewish people would not have taken place. We remember, and will never forget, that from the killing and the destruction, from the ashes and the despair, we have risen to establish not only the Jewish State, but the military force that will forever provide security for the Jewish people, protecting it from any future attempts of persecution, torture and destruction.

  These days, after sixty years of independence, the existence of an independent Jewish state is not a fact that should be taken for granted. Even today, in our region of the world, voices are heard calling for the destruction of the State of Israel. Even today, we have to continue the struggle for our right to maintain a national home and safe haven for the Jewish people in their land.

  We have learned our lesson. We take threats of leaders calling for the destruction of Israel very seriously.

  From this sense of deep responsibility for our continued existence as a people in our land and for the continuity of our heritage, we have no choice but to continue the struggle. Since we are fighting for our very existence, we cannot afford to grow weary or be deterred in our struggle.

  In the words of Mordechai Anielewicz, commander of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in his last letter on May 8th, 1943, sixty-five years ago this week: ?It is impossible to put into words what we have been through. One thing is clear, what happened exceeded our boldest dreams. The Germans ran twice from the ghetto. One of our companies held out for 40 minutes, and another for more than six hours. The mine set in the ?brushmakers? area exploded. Self-defense in the ghetto will be a reality.I have been a witness to the magnificent, heroic fighting of Jewish men in battle?.

  Two days ago, I laid a wreath and saluted at the doorstep of the bunker where he commanded the uprising at Mila 18 in Warsaw. Now, I would like to dedicate some words to our colleagues from around the world who stand here with us:

  I stand here today, in this heartbreaking spot, as the commander of the army of the Jewish Nation. In the name of the Israel Defense Forces I salute the six million Jews who were annihilated by the Nazis and their collaborators. I vow to uphold the responsibility of the Israel Defense Forces - never again to allow Jewish blood to be spilled in vain. May the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust be forever blessed and remembered.

  A people which does not know or honor its past, shrouds its future in uncertainty. Therefore, it is crucial that new generations of IDF soldiers and officers make this sacred march in honor and remembrance of our persecuted ancestors.

  Standing here, on this cursed land that has witnessed the most terrible of horrors in human history, I call upon all nations? leaders to remove human hatred from the face of the earth; to act determinedly to erase anti-Semitism around the world, preventing it from ever gaining force. Above all, each and every one of us must do their utmost to ensure that never again will we walk alone.

  Here on this cursed ground, from which still cry the voices of our slain brothers, and as commander of the Israel Defense Forces of the state of the Jewish people, I salute our six million brothers and sisters, who have been persecuted, deported, tortured and cruelly murdered, and swear that ?Jewish blood shall never again be spilled in vain!?

  Blessed be the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust! 








  3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997
  This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here.
  Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/8c7e4aa2/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 22:27:31 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:27:31 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <cd7.2e8ac0a1.354e8723@aol.com>

Shalom Jessica, 
 
    You have said it 'all' - right  there....The only thing I can think of 
adding is: "Pray as if  it is only prayer that will work, and Act, as if only 
your  actions will work...."  And I've always been from the 'action' side of 
this  equation....I'll be sharing some thoughts on this, G-d willing, over the 
next  few weeks.  My bosses will be in Israel the week of May 10th - that should 
 give me some breathing room  :-)
 
    Best  regards,        
 
Hanoch the Lil  Lion of Judah






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/1afa41c0/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 22:27:37 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:57:37 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Worth reading and thinking about....
In-Reply-To: <be0.3264ca46.354e7980@aol.com>
References: <be0.3264ca46.354e7980@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8FB87DB370D84615A17A03EF85AC00E8@JessicaPC>

Hanoch, my Mother's Father's family emigrated to Australia from Poland late in the 1800's. I often wonder if they were Jews escaping persecution. Unfortunately my Mum can't give me any answers in this regard. My grandfather was a 'beautiful' soul and his photos are reminiscent of some Rabbi's pics I have seen.???
Only HaShem knows who we really are.
Thank you for sharing this information.
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:59 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Worth reading and thinking about....


  Shavua tov to all - 

      This was on a site, written by someone after visiting Yad Vashem, Israel's memorial to the victims of the Holocaust - 3,000,000 of whom (still!) remain unnamed, unrecorded....

          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...


              Jerusalem Watchman, April 30, 2008 
  Who were you, dark and
  Beautiful girl,
  Your limpid pools unplumbable?
  What did you see; what images rushed upon your fear-filled gaze
  To stay, indelible in your mind
  Until erased by death?
  Who were you? What joy was robbed
  And wrenched from those who loved you,
  Those whose hands had once stroked your soft,
  Sweet hair. And who you once
  Made smile?

  [Thoughts provoked on a recent visit to a Yad Vashem gallery of Holocaust victims]







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/bd0b6aa2/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 22:28:45 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:28:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>

Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

Love,

Pat


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Hey Pat,

Shavua Tov to you as well.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


  -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


  I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

                Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/5a118b78/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:30:05 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:30:05 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <3B50FE44DEFA4865B29371F73840923D@JessicaPC>
References: <050420080300.7298.481D26E4000AD89D00001C8222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<3B50FE44DEFA4865B29371F73840923D@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <050420080330.17748.481D2DBA000D76BB0000455422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Yeah I miss the list on Saturdays too, but I guess that's what Shabbat is for - study and introspection.  I kinda have email withdrawal symptoms by Saturday night.  :-{)}

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


Hi John,
I'm hanging out for that posting - so I hope Dave gets it up sooooon.
Jessica
PS: I missed you guys yesterday, but like Hanoch I also got stuck into some serious and productive study. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Yeah, my Blackberry usually starts playing a symphony by now.

We had a good Shabbat too.  Joe Good taught today and Ross was there as well.  We discussed some plans for Sukkote.  Joe taught a really great lesson.  I'm sure Dave will post it soon.

I'm getting ready for tomorrow.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


You too John, and everyone -   I expected to log on tonight and find a hundred messages!!  I guess everyone was napping today!  :-)

 I spent a quite a number of hours reading and studying it was very, very, productive.  Hope y'all had a great Shabbat!  I'm filled with inspiration...tough to NOT spring into 'action' tonight...I need to cultivate some patience...

          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/335a6145/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:33:13 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:33:13 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050420080333.22336.481D2E77000D52320000574022230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

A mere six months away!  Hugs all around.  I'll pass on your anticipation to Carin.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

Love,

Pat


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Hey Pat,

Shavua Tov to you as well.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/e1755ca6/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 22:37:24 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:37:24 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
Message-ID: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>

Hey John - 
 
    I thought I was the only one with THAT  particular syndrome!!!  LOL  
Let's just think of it as increasing our  anticipation for what might help 
'sustain' us (emails from Sat night - Friday)  over the course of the week, after the 
beauty of Shabbat....
 
    My daughter Ayala was away this  Shabbat so it was 'quiet' here, to say 
the least - but after spending hours  reading what Rav Kahane had written about 
Mashiach Ben Yosef...I realized that I  need that 'time to myself' in order 
to spend that time.....
 
    SO much to discuss....gotta find the  time to post at least some of 
it....I already know that this week will have  three nights (Mon-Wed) that will 
keep me at work until 11:00; although tomorrow  (Sunday, I hope to get out at a 
reasonable hour).  But hang in there -  fun stuff will be on the way....
 
    Best regards pal,
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/7625511d/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 22:54:56 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 03:54:56 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080354.18292.481D338D000E8CED0000477422230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I'm hangin'.  Ain't no tellin' what the next week will bring.  It's so cool to serve a real live G-d!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Hey John - 

    I thought I was the only one with THAT particular syndrome!!!  LOL  Let's just think of it as increasing our anticipation for what might help 'sustain' us (emails from Sat night - Friday) over the course of the week, after the beauty of Shabbat....

    My daughter Ayala was away this Shabbat so it was 'quiet' here, to say the least - but after spending hours reading what Rav Kahane had written about Mashiach Ben Yosef...I realized that I need that 'time to myself' in order to spend that time.....

    SO much to discuss....gotta find the time to post at least some of it....I already know that this week will have three nights (Mon-Wed) that will keep me at work until 11:00; although tomorrow (Sunday, I hope to get out at a reasonable hour).  But hang in there - fun stuff will be on the way....

    Best regards pal,
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/1f30926e/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 23:05:17 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:05:17 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
Message-ID: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>

 
Shavua tov L'Kulchem,
 
    Right before Shabbat I got a note from  a friend of mine asking for my 
take on a verse in the Book of  Morman.   Since I don't have one of those 
("Sorry, I just have 9  different New Testaments, no Book of Morman..."), could 
someone tell me what  they think of the following:
 
 look up 2 Nephi 2 (in some versions it is 2 Nephi  3) where Lehi speaks to 
his last born son, Joseph.  Note especially the  verses pertaining to fruit of 
the loins of Joseph and Judah together WRITING to  the "confounding of 
doctrines, laying down of contentions, and establishing  peace between "the fruit of 
thy loins" and bringing them to the knowledge of  their fathers in the Last 
Days ..."
 
    I will try to pick up a copy of the  Book of Morman soon, maybe from one 
of those smiling LDS guys, who want to  'save' my Jewish soul.....but in the 
meantime, can anyone shed some light on  this, and I'll pass it along?
 
    Toda!
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/d12d3233/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:07:07 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:07:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Jeremy,

Ross and Brian turned on the digest option.  Can you give us all some coaching on how to use it?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>: -------------- 


I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please!

Jeremy
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/64c647a3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 23:07:36 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:07:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl><050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<050420080333.22336.481D2E77000D52320000574022230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl><050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<050420080333.22336.481D2E77000D52320000574022230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS549C6140148C64AFF08E4BAD40@phx.gbl>

Thanks, John!  I surely am glad we've got Dialogue in the interim!!!!


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:33 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


A mere six months away!  Hugs all around.  I'll pass on your anticipation to Carin.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


  -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


  Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

  Love,

  Pat


  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  Hey Pat,

  Shavua Tov to you as well.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


    I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


    From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
    Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


    You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

                  Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/353207fb/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sat May  3 23:10:32 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:10:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
References: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS47BCD27D51B211AF0125DBAD40@phx.gbl>

Can hardly wait to hear what you've found, Hanoch!!!   ~ Pat


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:37 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Hey John - 

    I thought I was the only one with THAT particular syndrome!!!  LOL  Let's just think of it as increasing our anticipation for what might help 'sustain' us (emails from Sat night - Friday) over the course of the week, after the beauty of Shabbat....

    My daughter Ayala was away this Shabbat so it was 'quiet' here, to say the least - but after spending hours reading what Rav Kahane had written about Mashiach Ben Yosef...I realized that I need that 'time to myself' in order to spend that time.....

    SO much to discuss....gotta find the time to post at least some of it....I already know that this week will have three nights (Mon-Wed) that will keep me at work until 11:00; although tomorrow (Sunday, I hope to get out at a reasonable hour).  But hang in there - fun stuff will be on the way....

    Best regards pal,
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/bf68bb9c/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:15:47 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:15:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080415.12833.481D3871000441C50000322122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I have one but I think it's in the library at the synagogue, I'll look it up tomorrow.  I tried to read the book of Mormon years ago but could never make it all the way through.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shavua tov L'Kulchem,

    Right before Shabbat I got a note from a friend of mine asking for my take on a verse in the Book of Morman.   Since I don't have one of those ("Sorry, I just have 9 different New Testaments, no Book of Morman..."), could someone tell me what they think of the following:

 look up 2 Nephi 2 (in some versions it is 2 Nephi 3) where Lehi speaks to his last born son, Joseph.  Note especially the verses pertaining to fruit of the loins of Joseph and Judah together WRITING to the "confounding of doctrines, laying down of contentions, and establishing peace between "the fruit of thy loins" and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the Last Days ..."

    I will try to pick up a copy of the Book of Morman soon, maybe from one of those smiling LDS guys, who want to 'save' my Jewish soul.....but in the meantime, can anyone shed some light on this, and I'll pass it along?

    Toda!
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/12cb0198/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 23:29:12 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:59:12 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <cd7.2e8a9d0d.354e82fe@aol.com>
References: <cd7.2e8a9d0d.354e82fe@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EB7BAFAEA9134F88B6B74BF473104DA0@JessicaPC>

Shalom Hanoch,
I only know Rabbi Nati from the Mystical Paths website. Here is a little about him from his blog.
He is a genuine Rabbi and student of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. His associate, Rabbi Akiva has confirmed the posting as genuine. He works mostly in the background and technical side of operating the website. 
However, this is Rabbi Nati in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54B7e2r5v7g
Please visit the website at: http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/  I would be very interested in your thoughts.
I hope that helps,
Jessica

Reb. Nati
  a.. Gender: Male
  b.. Industry: Religion
  c.. Location: Yishuv Eli : Shomron : Israel
About Me
Former United States Marine turn breslov Chassid. "Up in the morning before rising sun come on boys we got to get those tfilos done." Uman!!!





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Shalom Jessica,

      Shavua tov, and a boker tov (Sunday!), too!  Who is Rabbi Nati?  I'm not familiar with him, although what he's describing (harassment, interrogation, intimidation, etc) have happened to many, many of my friends.   My teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May HaShem avenge his blood) used to say that the "'real' war in Israel was against the Hellenists."  I don't doubt that this is part of it...

      May HaShem have mercy on ALL HIS people, and bring the Geula - the final redemption, NOW....

      Very best regards,
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/8fdf601a/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sat May  3 23:31:18 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:01:18 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <050420080316.534.481D2A9E000024CC0000021622230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl><6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl><443AE5287C564AF183633CE66CC18686@JessicaPC>
	<050420080316.534.481D2A9E000024CC0000021622230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <9F53A18E2E854573A309C7DFD803DCA8@JessicaPC>

Thank you John and whatever day it is for you where you are, may it be filled will His Glorious Light.
Shalom
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


  Shavua Tov Jessica.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


    Blessings Pat.
    Jessica
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Pat Robbins 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


      Have left a message for Rabbi Nati.  Again, thank you, Jessica. ~ Pat  



      From: Jessica 
      Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:46 PM
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


      Dear Pat,
      Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
      I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
      Blessings,
      Jessica

        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: Pat Robbins 
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


        Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

        I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

        My love to all,

        Pat 


        From: Jessica 
        Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


        Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
        Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
        May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
        Baruch HaShem,
        Jessica
        PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

        ""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

        As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

        My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of lite ral interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

        It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

        I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
        I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

        This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

        Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

        My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""


------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/48f2efe3/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Sat May  3 23:34:58 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 23:34:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl><050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E7FBAEA840334E2397E9BCD066FBA5E1@sherryPC>

Hi Pat, Big hug to you ! I 'm so glad to hear of your plans to celebrate sukkot with us in Louisiana. Dave and I will be sleeping under the stars in our tent. (Dave and Ross actually slept a couple of nights in the Sukka last year) Can't wait to see you again.
Love and blessings, Sherry 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

  Love,

  Pat


  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  Hey Pat,

  Shavua Tov to you as well.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


    I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


    From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
    Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


    You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

                  Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 11:22 AM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080503/d668fa20/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sat May  3 23:37:45 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:37:45 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
Message-ID: <bda.28e310c5.354e9799@aol.com>

Hey John,
 
    I actually remember reading a book  about the Book of Morman, a number of 
years ago; that made it far more  'understandable.'  Not that I want to 
insult anyone's faith, but trust me  on this - NOTHING good ever came out of 
Upstate New York...with the only  exception being Patty & Dave Tyler!   :-)
 
Hanoch the  Lil Lion of Judah




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/e4b2402e/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:47:07 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:47:07 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

The thought that follows is new to me.  

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (more research).

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Boker tov L'Kulchem,

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
    
    







Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/198e7da5/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:51:19 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:51:19 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <bda.28e310c5.354e9799@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050420080451.16335.481D40C500070A9400003FCF22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Well, I think understandable is a relative term.  I had (have) a really hard time with the first chapter.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Hey John,

    I actually remember reading a book about the Book of Morman, a number of years ago; that made it far more 'understandable.'  Not that I want to insult anyone's faith, but trust me on this - NOTHING good ever came out of Upstate New York...with the only exception being Patty & Dave Tyler!   :-)

Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/55952679/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:54:44 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:54:44 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <9F53A18E2E854573A309C7DFD803DCA8@JessicaPC>
References: <0F64B3FE795F42339F9048770C904AAF@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS75FEDD0F0E83E355097F8BAD40@phx.gbl><6C411E6A0B4745008813AF766FF8BF9B@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS3F4B138E8828D20AEDC59BAD40@phx.gbl><443AE5287C564AF183633CE66CC18686@JessicaPC>
	<050420080316.534.481D2A9E000024CC0000021622230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<9F53A18E2E854573A309C7DFD803DCA8@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <050420080454.18535.481D4191000014430000486722230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

I'm in Louisiana so it's almost Sunday here.

Brachot and Shalom to you too.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


Thank you John and whatever day it is for you where you are, may it be filled will His Glorious Light.
Shalom
Jessica
----- Original Message ----- 
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Shavua Tov Jessica.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>: -------------- 


Blessings Pat.
Jessica
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pat Robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Have left a message for Rabbi Nati.  Again, thank you, Jessica. ~ Pat  



From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 8:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Dear Pat,
Actually it's Sunday morning here, but thank you anyway.
I'm sure Rabbi Nati would be uplifted to know that there are people around the world who are thinking of him and praying for his wellbeing and also for the wellbeing of his family. 
Blessings,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pat Robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Jessica, thank you so much for making us aware of Rabbi Nati's situation!  I'm praying for HaSHem's protection, and asking that His angels surround this precious Rabbi with swords drawn at all times.  May we all keep him surrounded with our intercessory prayers.

I so hope you had a restful and peaceful Shabbat, and am wishing you a Shavua Tov, though I realize I'm way behind the times of Oz here on the East Coast of the US (guess it's already Monday to you)!   I so love reading your emails to us, and thank our G-d for you, and for all on this List.  We are reaching out to one another, and gathering ourselves together as the Prophets said we would do in this Time!

My love to all,

Pat 


From: Jessica 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 4:51 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 


Hello everyone, this message comes to you with great compassion and concern for our brothers and cousins in Israel, and a call for your sincerest prayers.
Below is an extract from Rabbi Nati of "Mystical Paths" blogspot.  The enemy is not only those who surround Israel on every side. The enemy of HaShem is trying to rid the land of His Name through persecution of His people in the very Land that is the purpose of the Jewish survival. The external enemies have not only their 'spies' in the Land, they also have their 'operatives' at the highest level of the leadership.
May the plan of redemption soon be completed - for His Name's Sake.
Baruch HaShem,
Jessica
PS: The full text can be found at : http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/ where you can also leave uplifting words and encouragement for Rabbi Nati in the comments. 

""The plan is falling into place as this is being written. The players are setting up for the final act. Israel was termed by Colon Powell when he was US Secretary of State as the "lastest and last ghetto for the Jews". 

As of late I've been targeted for wanting the Geulah! This is a revolution in their eyes, dangerous for world or national order. With this post I may be committing suicide. The Israel Internal Security Service, the Shabak, has interrogated me nightly, all night, every night, ALL WEEK, on the revolution that Breslov and the Tzaddik of Meah Shearim are setting up. The one called Moshiach and the Geulah. 

My house is literally being watched, my phone has literally been tapped. I've been grilled for hours and hours on ... prayer, tikun chazot, hisbodedut, the teachings of my rebbe, HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita, mikvah, and Moshiach and the Geulah. Hours and hours and hours on end of lite ral interrogation, yanked from my bed, pulled from my house in front of my children, night after night.

It appears to me they are in the process of trying to set up the Tzadik HaRav Shalom Arush, shlita and his followers as right wing religious zealots who want turn over the world, or at least the Israeli government. And the side of evil literally are killing people over their fear of what will be.

I've been pulled in and questioned in what I'm told is the "most nice manner". I am not permitted to turn off my cell phone and required to have it on me at all times. When I have, they've arrived quickly and screamed "what do you think you're doing???"
I believe this all in an effort to form a picture to sell to the world to prove that we are dangerous and must be dealt with harshly. Yet the only revolution we are selling is one of teshuvah and connecting to Hashem.

This sounds so much like the propaganda machines of the past, of the Nazi's (y'm), of the Communists, of the dictators. 

Things are running on a dead end track to disaster. The disengagement is exploding in our faces, literally daily (color red alert, color red alert). The division of the holy city is about to take place. The holy prophets foretold of this many years ago and now it is finally here.

My friends and family have seen me taken away, they've heard the men inform me they were secret police. I indeed fear an 'accident' or 'heart attack' soon.""



_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a86dbaf7/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sat May  3 23:57:34 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:57:34 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <E7FBAEA840334E2397E9BCD066FBA5E1@sherryPC>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl><050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<E7FBAEA840334E2397E9BCD066FBA5E1@sherryPC>
Message-ID: <050420080457.22030.481D423C00056BDC0000560E22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Sherry, see ya tonite.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "sherry cole" <shcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


Hi Pat, Big hug to you ! I 'm so glad to hear of your plans to celebrate sukkot with us in Louisiana. Dave and I will be sleeping under the stars in our tent. (Dave and Ross actually slept a couple of nights in the Sukka last year) Can't wait to see you again.
Love and blessings, Sherry 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Pat Robbins 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

Love,

Pat


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


Hey Pat,

Shavua Tov to you as well.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 11:22 AM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/303c68c6/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sun May  4 00:41:18 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:11:18 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>

Hey John,
This is an incredible 'journey' that we are all on isn't it? Full of questions, insights and revelations. May I share with you some of my own thoughts?
My belief is that as individuals, we are all responsible for our own conduct, which of course includes our sins, and that we are all responsible for 'making amends' either with HaShem or with whomever we have sinned against. 
Somehow Xtianity (or a segment of the movement) chose to transfer that personal responsibility onto a 'saviour figure' therefore abrogating their own individual responsibility by simply 'believing on him' to take away their sins. I apologise if that may seem offensive to anyone, but that's just my belief.
On the other hand, the 'nation of Israel' needs leadership that will guide the people in the ways of HaShem so that accidental, or indeed deliberate, sinning is so reduced as to not affect the overall 'holiness' of the nation. It was the leadership in Yeshua's day that was the greatest stumbling block to the nation, and guess what, it appears to be the same today. (along with the harrassment, and harsh treatment of the religious stalwarts)
Yeshua was a totally orthodox Rabbi who spoke on behalf of HaShem to call the people back to Torah and away from the 'factions' and 'traditions' of the religious leaders at that time. If he had not come with the 'true Torah', it may have become completely lost (who knows).
I like to think  that my mind is 'open' regarding The Anointed One of HaShem. There have been (as Hanoch pointed out) a great many very righteous men throughout the ages who also were horrendously tortured and murdered because of baseless hatred, and I believe, in order to suppress the teaching of Moses (ie: Torah) because primarily it proved them 'guilty' of it's abuse and misuse. 
I am still 'confused' about what an Anointed One will do, since it is HaShem who is the King of the Universe. However Psalm 122:5 speaks of 'thrones', plural. Surely a king has only one throne or have I missed something? Maybe there will be joint rule - a King for the Spirit and a King for the Body??
Keep searching John, as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find me," says Adonai.
Shalom,
Jessica



----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

  There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

  1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
  2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
  3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

  The thought that follows is new to me.  

  It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

  That's all I got right now.  Comments?

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


    Boker tov L'Kulchem,

        I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

        PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

        Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

    What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

    1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

    2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

    3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

    4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

    5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

    6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

        The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

            Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

            B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                     Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
        
        






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/86dcd61e/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Sun May  4 01:06:21 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 01:06:21 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....
In-Reply-To: <050420080457.22030.481D423C00056BDC0000560E22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <d19.25a83298.354e7e16@aol.com><BLU125-DS4159E97F61586DE8D9C36BAD40@phx.gbl><050420080314.26005.481D2A0D000B77140000659522230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS5A2A03EE39CFB2F1CBF28BAD40@phx.gbl><E7FBAEA840334E2397E9BCD066FBA5E1@sherryPC>
	<050420080457.22030.481D423C00056BDC0000560E22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <C95DCE90A4D84E66AB8DC516F36D58C3@sherryPC>

Hey John, We will see you tonight (I didn't realize it was tomorrow already, better get off this computer and get some sleep)
Shalom
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


  Hey Sherry, see ya tonite.

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 


    -------------- Original message from "sherry cole" <shcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


    Hi Pat, Big hug to you ! I 'm so glad to hear of your plans to celebrate sukkot with us in Louisiana. Dave and I will be sleeping under the stars in our tent. (Dave and Ross actually slept a couple of nights in the Sukka last year) Can't wait to see you again.
    Love and blessings, Sherry 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Pat Robbins 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


      Hi John!!!!  Am so excited about coming to see all of y'all at Sukkot!  Miss you guys so much!!!  Give Sherry a hug for me, please, and I am looking so forward to meeting Carin.

      Love,

      Pat


      From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
      Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:14 PM
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


      Hey Pat,

      Shavua Tov to you as well.

      --
      John C. 

      "Be excellent to each other!" 
      Bill and Ted 


        -------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


        I did, Hanoch, and I hope you did as well.  Shavua tov to you too!


        From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
        Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:48 PM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


        You're very welcome Pat - Shavua tov!  I hope you had a restful, rejuvenating and insightful Shabbat!

                      Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
        Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...






------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG. 
      Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 11:22 AM



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 11:22 AM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/ad3966b3/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 01:07:36 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 06:07:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.

As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:11:18 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Hey John, 
This is an incredible 'journey' that we are all on isn't it? Full of questions, insights and revelations. May I share with you some of my own thoughts? 
My belief is that as individuals, we are all responsible for our own conduct, which of course includes our sins, and that we are all responsible for 'making amends' either with HaShem or with whomever we have sinned against. 
Somehow Xtianity (or a segment of the movement) chose to transfer that personal responsibility onto a 'saviour figure' therefore abrogating their own individual responsibility by simply 'believing on him' to take away their sins. I apologise if that may seem offensive to anyone, but that's just my belief. 
On the other hand, the 'nation of Israel' needs leadership that will guide the people in the ways of HaShem so that accidental, or indeed deliberate, sinning is so reduced as to not affect the overall 'holiness' of the nation. It was the leadership in Yeshua's day that was the greatest stumbling block to the nation, and guess what,?it appears to be the same today. (along with the harrassment, and harsh treatment of the religious stalwarts) 
Yeshua was a totally orthodox Rabbi who spoke on behalf of HaShem to call the people back to Torah and away from the 'factions' and?'traditions'?of the religious leaders at that time. If he had not come with the 'true Torah', it may have become completely lost (who knows). 
I like to think? that my mind is 'open' regarding The Anointed One of HaShem. There have been (as Hanoch pointed out) a great many very righteous men throughout the ages who also were horrendously tortured and murdered because of baseless hatred, and I believe, in order to suppress the teaching of Moses (ie: Torah) because primarily it proved them 'guilty' of it's abuse and misuse. 
I am still 'confused' about what an Anointed One will do, since it is HaShem who is the King of the Universe. However Psalm 122:5 speaks of 'thrones', plural. Surely a king has only one throne or have I missed something? Maybe there will be joint rule - a King for the Spirit and a King for the Body?? 
Keep searching John, as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find me," says Adonai. 
Shalom, 
Jessica 
? 
? 
? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:17 PM 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 

 
 
I had an interesting thought today.? Was there when I woke up this morning.? It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this; 
? 
There is really a heirarchy of three important questions, 
? 
1.)? Why must there be a Messiah?? More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King). 
2.)? What is Messiah?supposed to accomplish?(this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)? 
3.)? Who is (will be)?Messiah. 
? 
The thought that follows is new to me.? 
? 
It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.? I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.? The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.? The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.? So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.? And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research). 
? 
That's all I got right now.? Comments? 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 

 
Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
? 
????I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.? Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").? 
? 
????PLEASE NOTE:? These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').? Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...? I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.? It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
? 
????Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
? 
What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
? 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
? 
6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 

????The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
 
????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
? 
????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
?????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
???? 
????



 
 
----------------
 Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL 
    Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
 
----------------
 
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________


From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sun May  4 03:15:31 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:45:31 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
	<1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>

John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)
We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived. Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a personal 'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.  Even though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to stick. The concept just raises another question in my head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form ???? I'm confused.
Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.  This is the one time that it was essential for the people to be of  'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. 
There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the Universe. 
I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as our 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and the others in this Dialogue to travel with.
May HaShem Bless your search,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


>I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
> 
> As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/2fbf3807/attachment.html 

From long777 at att.net  Sun May  4 08:23:16 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 08:23:16 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <00b001c8adea$04685cc0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>

Shalom,
 
The digest option has a plus side and a negative side. The plus is that you
only receive one or two emails a day with all conversations as part of them.
the downside is that if you are using it you are sometimes a bit late in
response to specific topics. Once you have selected that option. It tends to
benefit me as I am late responding usually anyway. For some of you that love
to keep up to date with all your email throughout the day it is probably not
the best option. Not really much else to tell, you can receive emails one at
a time as they are written or you can receive them once a day in "digest"
mode. 
 
Thank you for turning it on, it will help me. I really like this list. I am
on a couple others but a lot of time we never really delve into heavy topics
as they are seen as controversial so the moderators shy away. At least here
there is actual "dialogue". The nature of messiah thread has been great.
Thank You all.
 
Jeremy
 
www.kolhator.org.il <http://www.kolhator.org.il/>   
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel
 
                                         
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest


Hey Jeremy,
 
Ross and Brian turned on the digest option.  Can you give us all some
coaching on how to use it?
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>:
-------------- 


I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual
emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not
realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at
least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please!
 
Jeremy

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/03fa9b5d/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 09:03:55 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 10:03:55 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>

Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this "spiritual" place to wait until the end for his time to return, I immediately think of Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a whirlwind while still in his physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We greatly anticipate Elijah's return, and since HaSHem is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He could conceivably have done something similar in regard to Yeshua.  

I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, but now that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why not?"  There is precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form. 

On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, then his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and there would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not there.  As I understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not added until a year after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to place the remaining bones into their box.  And, of course, because there have been times when N.T. editors appear to have reworked the original writings to accord with official dogma, as opposed to actual truth, I have had great difficulty wanting to look at it at all.

Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the N.T. are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the facts buried therein while exposing every lie.  And may the name and memory of Yeshua be vindicated.

Blessings to you,

Pat 


From: Jessica 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)
We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived. Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a personal 'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.  Even though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to stick. The concept just raises another question in my head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form ???? I'm confused.
Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.  This is the one time that it was essential for the people to be of  'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. 
There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the Universe. 
I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as our 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and the others in this Dialogue to travel with.
May HaShem Bless your search,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


>I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
> 
> As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/1b3bad30/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 08:57:37 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:57:37 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <1159825151-1209910108-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-350075693-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Jessica,

All you siad is right in line with the point I'm trying (badly) to make.

I'm saying that there is no Torah/Tanakh basis I can find for the Christian concept of a personal intecessor.

When I said 'replace' I was referring to the question, 'what does a Christian who realizes the above truth do with the concept of Messiah?'.  

The requirement for Messiah is clear throughout the Tanakh.  But from a Christian perspective, if it is not a personal savior, what is it?  I'm talking about the cocept of Messiah in general here, not Yeshua specifically.  I'm not ready to deal with the personage of Messiah yet (third question).

Remember, Christianity as a whole does not recognize the need to be a single nation as Judism does.

I will always follow Yeshua because (as Ross says) he is my Rabbi.

So i'm trying to isolate the why and the what from the who right now.


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:45:31 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator directly?? If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find impossible? Surely? it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10) 
We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived. Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,? rather than in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a personal?'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.??Even though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to stick.?The concept just raises another question in my head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form ???? I'm confused. 
Of course?there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.? This is the one time that it was essential for the people to be of? 'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. 
There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the Universe. 
I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but? as our 'journey' continues -?may I say that?I'm so very glad to have you and the others in this Dialogue to travel with. 
May HaShem Bless your search, 
Jessica 
? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: < <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net> carlson_john at bellsouth.net> 
To: "Dialogue" < <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 

>I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.? I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
> 
> As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).? I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.? Here is my point.? I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.? So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.? Not getting sat answers
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
>_______________________________________________


From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 09:03:06 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:03:06 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <00b001c8adea$04685cc0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><00b001c8adea$04685cc0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>
Message-ID: <5435297-1209910234-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1612084903-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Thanks Jeremy,

My question was a little more technical I guess.  I don't see any button that let's me select 'digest'.  How do I actually select it.

Glad it helps you.  We are glad to have you with us.

Shalom.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeremy" <long777 at att.net>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 08:23:16 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Email Digest


Shalom, 
? 
The digest option has a plus side and a negative side. The plus is that you only receive one or two emails a day with all conversations as part of them. the downside is that if you are using it you are sometimes a bit late in response to specific topics. Once you have selected that option. It tends to benefit me as I am late responding usually anyway. For some of you that love to keep up to date with all your email throughout the day it is probably not the best option. Not really much else to tell, you can receive emails one at a time as they are written or you can receive them once a day in "digest" mode. 
? 
Thank you for turning it on, it will help me. I really like this list. I am on a couple others but a lot of time we never really delve into heavy topics as they are seen as controversial so the moderators shy away. At least here there is actual "dialogue". The nature of messiah thread has been great. Thank You all. 
? 
Jeremy 
? 
www.kolhator.org.il <http://www.kolhator.org.il/> ?? 
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel 
? 
????????????????????????????????????????? 
?
 
 
----------------
 From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

 
 
 
Hey Jeremy, 
? 
Ross and Brian turned on the digest option.? Can you give us all some coaching on how to use it? 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>: -------------- 

 
 
I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
? 
Jeremy_______________________________________________


From dhcole1 at cox.net  Sun May  4 09:11:56 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:11:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
	<1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <01a401c8adf0$d0422050$6600a8c0@davesbook>

Hey John and Jessica......(and all ya'll)

I like to keep it simple......Gen chapter 4 vs. 5,6 & 7.   

what a day we live in.....
dave
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


>I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
> 
> As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>
> 
> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:11:18 
> To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
> 
> 
> Hey John, 
> This is an incredible 'journey' that we are all on isn't it? Full of questions, insights and revelations. May I share with you some of my own thoughts? 
> My belief is that as individuals, we are all responsible for our own conduct, which of course includes our sins, and that we are all responsible for 'making amends' either with HaShem or with whomever we have sinned against. 
> Somehow Xtianity (or a segment of the movement) chose to transfer that personal responsibility onto a 'saviour figure' therefore abrogating their own individual responsibility by simply 'believing on him' to take away their sins. I apologise if that may seem offensive to anyone, but that's just my belief. 
> On the other hand, the 'nation of Israel' needs leadership that will guide the people in the ways of HaShem so that accidental, or indeed deliberate, sinning is so reduced as to not affect the overall 'holiness' of the nation. It was the leadership in Yeshua's day that was the greatest stumbling block to the nation, and guess what, it appears to be the same today. (along with the harrassment, and harsh treatment of the religious stalwarts) 
> Yeshua was a totally orthodox Rabbi who spoke on behalf of HaShem to call the people back to Torah and away from the 'factions' and 'traditions' of the religious leaders at that time. If he had not come with the 'true Torah', it may have become completely lost (who knows). 
> I like to think that my mind is 'open' regarding The Anointed One of HaShem. There have been (as Hanoch pointed out) a great many very righteous men throughout the ages who also were horrendously tortured and murdered because of baseless hatred, and I believe, in order to suppress the teaching of Moses (ie: Torah) because primarily it proved them 'guilty' of it's abuse and misuse. 
> I am still 'confused' about what an Anointed One will do, since it is HaShem who is the King of the Universe. However Psalm 122:5 speaks of 'thrones', plural. Surely a king has only one throne or have I missed something? Maybe there will be joint rule - a King for the Spirit and a King for the Body?? 
> Keep searching John, as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find me," says Adonai. 
> Shalom, 
> Jessica 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:17 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> 
> 
> I had an interesting thought today. Was there when I woke up this morning. It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this; 
> 
> There is really a heirarchy of three important questions, 
> 
> 1.) Why must there be a Messiah? More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King). 
> 2.) What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)? 
> 3.) Who is (will be) Messiah. 
> 
> The thought that follows is new to me. 
> 
> It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one. I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him. The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d. The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor. So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine. And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research). 
> 
> That's all I got right now. Comments? 
> 
> --
> John C. 
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!" 
> Bill and Ted 
> 
> -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
> 
> 
> Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
> 
> I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way. Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late..."). 
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach'). Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW... I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view. It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
> 
> Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
> 
> What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
> 
> 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
> 
> 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
> 
> 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
> 
> 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
> 
> 5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
> 
> 6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 
> 
> The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
> 
> Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
> 
> B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
> Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL 
>    Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
> 
> ----------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> 
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/280b37e6/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun May  4 09:24:08 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 10:24:08 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where  
YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those  
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah  
49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is  
Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah"  
idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both  
Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow.  
Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps  
turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in  
the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring  
Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The  
Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry  
out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you  
know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

Good week,

James


On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

> I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this  
> morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do  
> but it goes like this;
>
> There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,
>
> 1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there  
> be an intercessor (King).
> 2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies  
> the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
> 3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.
>
> The thought that follows is new to me.
>
> It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and  
> Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in  
> Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can  
> all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that  
> we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block  
> is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would  
> NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to  
> have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh)  
> perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a  
> "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/ 
> Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me  
> to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became  
> a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I  
> am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught  
> by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).
>
> That's all I got right now.  Comments?
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com:  
> --------------
>
> Boker tov L'Kulchem,
>
>     I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always  
> does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings,  
> and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we  
> are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick  
> points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a  
> number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm  
> late, I'm, positively late...").
>
>     PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish  
> understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply  
> means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone,  
> disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show  
> the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based,  
> obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important  
> that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....
>
>     Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:
>
> What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible  
> says that he will:
>
> 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple  
> (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
>
> 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
>
> 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi  
> David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'),  
> and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says:  
> "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man  
> learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
>
> 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His  
> teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will  
> be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His  
> Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
>
> 5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is  
> the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of  
> David - the Davidic Dynasty).
>
> 6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system  
> (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the  
> Sabbatical year and Jubilee
>
>     The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected  
> one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor  
> a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d  
> would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts  
> our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the  
> human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be  
> worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint,  
> or even the messiah himself.
>         Looking forward to our continued dialogue,
>
>         B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
>                  Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
>
>
>
>
>
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car  
> listings at AOL Autos.
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/856ca000/attachment.html 

From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net  Sun May  4 09:46:10 2008
From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <171002.31339.qm@web83314.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

James,
   
      You said it all!....and you said it so well.  We should all focus on the 2nd Coming of YHVH....our only Redeemer and King.....the ONE for Whom we need to be prepared.
   
  Be blessed today and every day,
  Linda/Hadassah

James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:
  One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.    

  I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
  

  Good week,
  

  James
  

  
  On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
      
  I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;
   
  There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,
   
  1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
  2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
  3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.
   
  The thought that follows is new to me.  
   
  It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).
   
  That's all I got right now.  Comments?
   
  --
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

   
  -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 

  Boker tov L'Kulchem,
   
      I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  
   
      PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....
   
      Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:
   
  What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
   
  5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).
   
  6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee
  
    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

          Looking forward to our continued dialogue,
   
          B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                   Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
      
      




    
---------------------------------
  Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________



  Shalom to all!  Linda

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/c24414e6/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Sun May  4 10:05:57 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:05:57 -0300
Subject: [Dialogue] role of messiah
Message-ID: <62B1C77F6C7E41B7AF670CAC575AAE1C@Beeblebrox>

quote:  "Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the N.T. are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the facts buried therein while exposing every lie.  And may the name and memory of Yeshua be vindicated."

Amein to that, Pat!  These are the days....

Looking forward to this evening's get-together, to hear more about the one whom I believe was written about in the scroll of the book, and who delighted to do the will of his G-d, and who told the glad news of deliverance in the great congregation.......his name being the message itself-  Yehoshua----"YHVH is salvation"!   Psalm 40: 6-10

Sharon
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/92c7e980/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 10:06:06 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:06:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <171002.31339.qm@web83314.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<171002.31339.qm@web83314.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <047101c8adf8$6270bf70$27523e50$@com>

Shalom All,

 

This is SO true - Messiah is a servant/helper role. Remember the story if
Gideon in Judg. 8 where the people of Israel said to him, "Rule over us, you
and your son and your grandson also." to which he replied, "I will not rule
over you, and my son will not rule over you; YHWH will rule over you."

 

Yeshua seemed to echo this sentiment in Jn. 6:15 "When Jesus therefore
perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he
departed again into a mountain himself alone."

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rudolph Ricciardi
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:46 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

James,

 

    You said it all!....and you said it so well.  We should all focus on the
2nd Coming of YHVH....our only Redeemer and King.....the ONE for Whom we
need to be prepared.

 

Be blessed today and every day,

Linda/Hadassah

James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> wrote:

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.
It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like
this;

 

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

 

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an
intercessor (King).

2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the
question of why Messiah would need to die)?

3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

 

The thought that follows is new to me.  

 

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in
terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor
became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that
G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with
Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective
that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research
more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh)
perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national"
figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an
individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure
for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian
doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine
was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation
(m ore research).

 

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




Boker tov L'Kulchem,

 

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as
it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always
defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com
and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to
rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

 

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of
the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, '
BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult
anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of
the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.
It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am
coming from....

 

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

 

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all
hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah
2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

 

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the
Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the
Davidic Dynasty).

 

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are
some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human
form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being
above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews
believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His
creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

 

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

    

    






  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .

_______________________________________________

 

_______________________________________________





Shalom to all!  Linda

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/77e29068/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Sun May  4 10:15:09 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:15:09 -0300
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>

Dear James, and all,

I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?  The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.

Thanks for all the input,
Sharon


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: James Tabor 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


  I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.


  Good week,


  James



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/1f11caf5/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 10:28:13 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>

Hi Sharon,

 

I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the
history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of
Yeshua:

 

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate."

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Dear James, and all,

 

I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering
why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?
The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to
me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.

 

Thanks for all the input,

Sharon

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 


 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/bb5dc2b2/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 10:21:27 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:21:27 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <01a401c8adf0$d0422050$6600a8c0@davesbook>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><01a401c8adf0$d0422050$6600a8c0@davesbook>
Message-ID: <1430373137-1209914907-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1513028502-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I know Dave, me too.

But we have been discussing the theological difference between Judaism and Christianity.  This normally focuses on the personage of Yeshua.  But I have had a sense for awhanile that the difference is more fundamental than that.  Somewhere between belief in HaShem as the one god and Yeshua's personage.

I'm trying to define that issue.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Dave Cole" <dhcole1 at cox.net>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 09:11:56 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Hey John and Jessica......(and all ya'll) 
? 
I like to keep it simple......Gen chapter 4 vs. 5,6 & 7.?? 
? 
what a day we live in..... 
dave 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: < <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net> carlson_john at bellsouth.net> 
To: "Dialogue" < <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:07 AM 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 

>I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.? I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
> 
> As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).? I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.? Here is my point.? I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.? So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.? Not getting sat answers
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Jessica" < <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au> jessley at eftel.net.au>
> 
> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:11:18 
> To:< <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
> 
> 
> Hey John, 
> This is an incredible 'journey' that we are all on isn't it? Full of questions, insights and revelations. May I share with you some of my own thoughts? 
> My belief is that as individuals, we are all responsible for our own conduct, which of course includes our sins, and that we are all responsible for 'making amends' either with HaShem or with whomever we have sinned against. 
> Somehow Xtianity (or a segment of the movement) chose to transfer that personal responsibility onto a 'saviour figure' therefore abrogating their own individual responsibility by simply 'believing on him' to take away their sins. I apologise if that may seem offensive to anyone, but that's just my belief. 
> On the other hand, the 'nation of Israel' needs leadership that will guide the people in the ways of HaShem so that accidental, or indeed deliberate, sinning is so reduced as to not affect the overall 'holiness' of the nation. It was the leadership in Yeshua's day that was the greatest stumbling block to the nation, and guess what, it appears to be the same today. (along with the harrassment, and harsh treatment of the religious stalwarts) 
> Yeshua was a totally orthodox Rabbi who spoke on behalf of HaShem to call the people back to Torah and away from the 'factions' and 'traditions' of the religious leaders at that time. If he had not come with the 'true Torah', it may have become completely lost (who knows). 
> I like to think that my mind is 'open' regarding The Anointed One of HaShem. There have been (as Hanoch pointed out) a great many very righteous men throughout the ages who also were horrendously tortured and murdered because of baseless hatred, and I believe, in order to suppress the teaching of Moses (ie: Torah) because primarily it proved them 'guilty' of it's abuse and misuse. 
> I am still 'confused' about what an Anointed One will do, since it is HaShem who is the King of the Universe. However Psalm 122:5 speaks of 'thrones', plural. Surely a king has only one throne or have I missed something? Maybe there will be joint rule - a King for the Spirit and a King for the Body?? 
> Keep searching John, as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find me," says Adonai. 
> Shalom, 
> Jessica 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From:  <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net> carlson_john at bellsouth.net < <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net> mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>? 
> To:  <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org < <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>? 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:17 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
>?
>?
> I had an interesting thought today. Was there when I woke up this morning. It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this; 
> 
> There is really a heirarchy of three important questions, 
> 
> 1.) Why must there be a Messiah? More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King). 
> 2.) What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)? 
> 3.) Who is (will be) Messiah. 
> 
> The thought that follows is new to me. 
> 
> It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one. I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him. The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d. The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor. So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine. And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research). 
> 
> That's all I got right now. Comments? 
> 
> --
> John C. 
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!" 
> Bill and Ted 
>?
> -------------- Original message from  <mailto:YoungBarzel at aol.com> YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
> 
>?
> Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
> 
> I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way. Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late..."). 
> 
> PLEASE NOTE: These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach'). Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW... I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view. It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
> 
> Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
> 
> What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
> 
> 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
> 
> 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
> 
> 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
> 
> 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
> 
> 5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
> 
> 6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 
> 
> The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
>?
> Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
> 
> B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
> Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>?
>?
> ----------------
>?Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL 
>??? Autos < <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
>?
> ----------------
>?
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
 
----------------
 
> _______________________________________________
>_______________________________________________


From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 10:42:48 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:42:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
	<050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

As you may remember, John, the new song I am working explores and expounds these 'non-traditional' roles of Yeshua...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/8c324f6f/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Sun May  4 11:00:01 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 11:00:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>

Pat and Jessica, I really admire your sincere search for the real truth. 
And this goes to you others as well. And Pat,  should you get to read my 
70 plus questions, then please don't be shy to point out how you would 
differ. I am open to learn the from any source. As soon as you let me 
know what you want concerning those 70 questions I will send them to 
you. I have them in a shortened file of 5 or so pages, but they don't 
necessarily make sense without the 61 pages they belong to. Do you want 
me to send them to you personally in an attachment or  in a couple of 
e-mails. I don't have them divided into chapters. And now I may even 
look at them in a different light. I made a lengthy 6 page introduction. 
But all of this on the condition that I had no confidence in the N.T., 
(accept of course what agrees with the Tanach)

. The Pastor and me got along fine. Their is no bitterness or harshness 
if I remember it correct throughout our 1 - 1/2 years of dialogue. He 
was quite confident from the start that he would point it out to me 
through the Tanach , or Old Testament that I needed to come back to 
Christianity to be saved, and that it took a sacrifice of blood to be 
saved, he referred to Leviticus 16, (and I can not find it there so 
quick what it also says), I know it is there somewhere. It is true as he 
quotes, but at the same time it says that If they are to poor to be able 
to bring 2 turtle doves, for a sin offering, it suffices to bring a 
measure of meal, (no blood in it) for a sin offering.

I believe and  agree it takes repentance to become free from sin. It is 
found in the Talmud (yoma 86b) that he who repents out of fear of 
punishment or divine retribution, his intentional sins are transformed 
into unintentional accidental sins, and he who repents out of his love 
for HaShem his intentional sins are transformed into merits.

I look forward to the message this evening from Ross, although I have to 
admit I did not quite see what exactly he wanted to tell us, or what he 
referred to. Much of it was a bit new to me at this point.

Cornie

Pat Robbins wrote:
> Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this 
> "spiritual" place to wait until the end for his time to return, I 
> immediately think of Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a 
> whirlwind while still in his physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We greatly 
> anticipate Elijah's return, and since HaSHem is the same yesterday, 
> today and tomorrow, He could conceivably have done something similar 
> in regard to Yeshua.  
>  
> I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, 
> but now that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why not?"  
> There is precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form. 
>  
> On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, 
> then his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and 
> bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and 
> there would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not 
> there.  As I understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not 
> added until a year after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to 
> place the remaining bones into their box.  And, of course, because 
> there have been times when N.T. editors appear to have reworked the 
> original writings to accord with official dogma, as opposed to actual 
> truth, I have had great difficulty wanting to look at it at all.
>  
> Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the 
> N.T. are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the 
> facts buried therein while exposing every lie.  And may the name and 
> memory of Yeshua be vindicated.
>  
> Blessings to you,
>  
> Pat 
>
> *From:* Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> /John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I 
> don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced 
> with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach 
> our Creator directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and 
> there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, 
> then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David 
> (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the 
> strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would 
> HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find impossible? 
> Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation that makes it 
> so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the Yetzer HaRa - but 
> didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the yetzer hara) would 
> flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)/
> /_We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we 
> lived._ Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and 
> return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than 
> in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem 
> Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was 
> HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy 
> struggling with the concept of a personal 'intercessor' who died, came 
> back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, and will 
> return when the time is ripe.  Even though my teacher friend has tried 
> to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to stick. The 
> concept just raises another question in my head - that "if G_d is 
> Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where has he 
> gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly tabernacle' is 
> a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form ???? I'm 
> confused./
> /Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all 
> the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each 
> individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I 
> believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the 
> Most Holy Place'.  This is the one time that it was essential for the 
> people to be of  'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - 
> for the sake of the whole nation. /
> /There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the 
> plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches 
> and administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and 
> the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) 
> the King of the Universe. /
> /I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as o//ur 
> 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and 
> the others in this Dialogue to travel with./
> /May HaShem Bless your search,/
> /Jessica/
> // 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>>
> To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may 
> never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him 
> tha please HaShem.
> >
> > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre 
> research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here 
> is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer 
> believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched 
> the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not 
> getting sat answers
> >
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> />
> >/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1412 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 4:34 PM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/2d17c222/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun May  4 11:01:30 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:01:30 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>
Message-ID: <8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Patty!

??? Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn in two...,"? I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish, Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.? It seems that it would have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think?? 

?? Color me CURIOUS....

?Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view




Hi Sharon,

?

I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of Yeshua:

?

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate."

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."

Patty

?



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



?


Dear James, and all,



?



I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering why "2nd".?? What/when was the 1st??? Was that perhaps back in the Garden?? The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding?- but maybe I have missed the point.



?



Thanks for all the input,



Sharon



?



?




----- Original Message ----- 



From: James Tabor 



To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 



Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM



Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



?


One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer.?Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 



?



I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. ?I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.



?



Good week,



?



James



?




?







_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/d898c077/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 11:19:17 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:19:17 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish
	view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>
	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <04ad01c8ae02$9d2bcc40$d78364c0$@com>

Hi Hanoch,

 

Here is an article about Shekinah with references to Departure and Return:
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.htm>
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.htm


The Shekinah


The section which follows is a chapter from Fred P Miller's book, Zechariah
and Jewish Renewal <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zecharia.htm> 


 <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zecharia.htm> 
Prophecies of the return of the "Shekinah," which had left the Temple and
city of Jerusalem in the days of Ezekiel, are repeated in Zechariah. These
same prophecies are also fulfilled in the historical period and record of
Zechariah. To better understand these prophecies it is necessary to have an
acquaintance with the history of the "Shekinah." 

Objection is made that the word "Shekinah,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.gif), is not found in the scripture in
its noun form and that it describes a concept that is not scriptural. It is
said that the word is coined by Post-biblical Rabbinic scholars. While it is
admitted that the Rabbinic concept of God being a hovering non-personal
force is an unacceptable extension of meaning, the concept of a physical
manifestation of God's localized dwelling is none-the-less scriptural. We
have chosen to use the word "Shekinah," (shknh) , to name this "presence"
since this meaning is in general distribution among many Christians, albeit
ignorant of the origin of the word. 

The word was coined from verbal cognates in the Bible which describe the
"presence" of God in a locality. The verbal cognates are copiously used to
describe the "Shekinah" appearances. The word "Shekinah," itself is not in
the biblical text but the concept, as I have defined it, clearly is. The
word most certainly is derived from "shakan," and whoever first used the
word "Shekinah" coined it as a substantive (noun form) from the verbal forms
used to describe the "abiding, dwelling, or habitation" of the physical
manifestations of God described in Ex 24:16
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#24-16> ; Ex 40:35
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#40-35> , Nu
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/Numbers.htm#9-16-17>  9:16-18;
and numerous other places where "shakan" is used. The word is also used to
describe the mystical "Shekinah" presence in the tabernacle. The word
"mishkan," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/mishkan.gif), a derivative of
"shakan," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shakan.gif), is often translated
"tabernacle." The Hebrew for tabernacle is more often simply "ohel,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/ohel.gif), or tent. "Mishkan" means "dwelling
place." That is, the "dwelling place" of "Him who dwells" or "Shekinah." 

"Shekinah" in Hebrew is a a feminine noun, It is interesting that Isaiah
refers to the Shekinah using feminine pronouns. Especially in Isaiah 51.
Particularly in Isaiah 51:9and 10
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa50-52.htm#rahab>  and its context the
pronouns are feminine. In verse 10 the KJV uses thou and it to refer to the
Shekinah. Both pronouns are feminine in Hebrew. The Qumran text makes the
feminine form certain by adding a yod to 2fs.
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/youshe.jpgLiterally feminine "you she"
translated in KJV "thou it." Without doubt this is why the inter-testament
Rabbis coined the word Shekinah to describe the events where the physical
presence performed miracles to guide and protect Israel. In the same passage
(Isa 51:9) there is a phrase "arm of YHWH" that is used exclusively for the
Messiah. This means Jesus was the Shekinah presence in the Old Testament
events. That is why the coming of the Messiah and the return of the Shekinah
to the second temple are intermixed in the extraordinarily mystically mixed
passage of Zechariah
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/zecharia.htm#2-8>  2:8-11. 

Zechariah uses cognates of the word in referring to the return of, the then
absent, "presence" which he supposed was imminent. We will show that
Zechariah previewed an imminent restoration of what Ezekiel (seventy years
previously) saw depart in his day and then predicted the return of to a
restored temple. What ever noun one calls it, such physical representations
of the "presence" are in the Bible. What did Ezekiel see leave the temple?
It is certain that what ever name you call the "presence" it is linked with
the fiery cloud of Sinai. We have chosen to use the word "Shekinah" to name
the biblically described mystical thing "dwelling" or thing "abiding." 

I also accept that "Cavod YHWH," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/cavodyhwh.gif)
(glory of the LORD) and "Shekinah" are identical in the contexts I make
reference to, such as the fire enfolding cloud on Sinai, (Ex.
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#24-16>  24:15-17) the
dedication of Solomon's temple, and that which is associated with Ezekiel's
vision of the departure and return. 

To say that "Shekinah" is not in a text where the presence of God is
described by a cognate of "shakan" may be closely akin to saying "baptism"
does not appear in the great commission passages and Acts 2:38 because
verbal cognates (baptized, baptizing) are used and not the noun "baptism"
itself. 

The Hebrew verb "shakan," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shakan.gif), simply
means to take up residence with long continuity in a neighborhood. The
distinction between this word and "yashav" which is also translated "dwell"
is just this: You can use the latter to mean an individual doing the
dwelling without reference to others or to duration while "shakan" means a
protracted dwelling in the midst of a neighborhood or a group of people or
might be limited to one other person but only by extension. The primary
meaning is to reside and continue as a member of the community. This is a
common word used for all classes to convey this idea. However, when it
refers to God it takes on an added mysticism which is obvious upon small
consideration. 

When verbal forms are translated as nouns the word sometimes means
"habitat." It is the habitat of animals and birds as well as humans and God.
(Dan. <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/daniel.htm#4-21>  4:21)
Grammatically, when verbal forms are translated as nouns, in Hebrew, they
are called "substantives." Technically, "Shekinah", therefore is a
substantive rather than a noun. 

God speaks of his "desire" for this relationship with his people. The
"Shekinah" therefore refers to the presence of God that was, but is not now,
physically manifested in the time- space continuum. It could be seen. The
presence was a vehicle of the person of God in the three dimensional world.
The understanding of Solomon that God can not actually be limited to Temples
on earth because of his eternal nature is seen in 1Ki. 8:27: 


"But will God indeed dwell ["yashav"] on the earth? behold, the heaven and
heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have
built?" 


This omniscient eternal presence of the Almighty, that Solomon recognized,
is the heavenly, but not the earthly, "Shekinah." Although the infinite
spiritual presence is and was coincident with the physically discernable
"Shekinah," it was distinguished from the physical even in Mosaic times. It
is only in this infinite way that the "Shekinah" is now manifested. He
indwells his people as a spirit. Isa. 57:15 says as much:

"For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits ("shakan") eternity,
whose name is Holy; I dwell ("shakan") in the high and holy place, and with
him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of
the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." 

"Who inhabits" In this passage the word "shokeyn,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shokeyn.gif) translated "who inhabits," is as
close to the meaning and direct use of the word "Shekinah"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.gif), in the Bible, as one will find.
The Hebrew letters, in the order they are pronounced, are sh = sh, = o, k =
k, = ey, n = n. The unpointed original Hebrew is simply
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shokeyn.gif). The form is a masculine
participle and literally means "He who inhabits" or "the one who is
inhabiting." This refers to God Himself. According to this verse, He is the
"Inhabiter" of heaven and human hearts at one and the same time! The word
"Shekinah" , which describes the physical thing which was "proof" of his
"dwelling" on earth in the Mosaic dispensation, is akin to this
construction. In fact, it is the identically same word, only the gender is
changed. If you simply add the feminine ending to change it from a masculine
to a feminine participle "shokeyn," (shkn), becomes "Shekinah" (shknh).
Thus, the masculine form of the substantive "Shekinah" does appear in the
Bible in Isaiah 57:15. 

In the Mosaic period the added physical "Shekinah" presence was evidence of
the real which is omnipresent and unseen. In the Mosaic dispensation the
"Shekinah" presence was physically disturbing. The presence was not God. It
was a physical manifestation of the actual presence of God among his people
and is to be distinguished from the "angel of the LORD." It was first
evident in the crossing of the Red Sea in the escape from Egypt. There the
"Shekinah" appeared as a cloudy pillar in the day and a fiery pillar at
night. The nation was led by the "Shekinah" for forty years after which the
"holy presence" of the omniscient God inhabited the tabernacle and the land
of Israel. It was not always afterward physically manifested. Thus: 

(Num. 35:34) "Defile not therefore the land which you shall inhabit, wherein
I dwell: ["shakan"] for I the LORD dwell ["shakan"] among the children of
Israel." 


However when that presence was physically manifested it was frightening to
those who beheld it.


(Ex. 24:15) And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
(Ex. 24:16) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] abode ["shakan"] upon
mount Sinai and the cloud covered it six days; and the seventh day he called
unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. (Ex. 24:17) And the sight of the
glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] was like devouring fire on the top of the
mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. 

Earlier, the seventy elders had gone up into the cloud and actually saw the
"Shekinah" glory, and they were so afraid they asked Moses never to take
them again. As far as they were concerned, they saw God! You can only
imagine their hair on end and their wide eyed appearance as they came down
from the mountain exclaiming "We saw God! It was terrible!" 

(Ex. 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as
it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven
in his clearness. (Ex. 24:11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel
he laid not his hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink. 

The mixture of clarity and confusion in similar passages is evidence of the
mystical nature of the experience. They were disoriented and afraid and the
later writing of the event records the confusion. 

The appearance a few days earlier of the physical presence of God on Mount
Sinai is described as fire and cloud and thick darkness when the ten
commandments were given. The Psalms contains a description of this event
calling it a "Shekinah" presence. The description is in a Messianic portion
and the Messiah is the "Shekinah" presence. He indwells ["shakan"] his
people. 

(Ps. 68:16) "Why do you leap, you high hills? this is the hill [Sinai] which
God desires to dwell ["shakan"] in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
(Ps. 68:17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of
angels: the LORD is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Ps. 68:18)
You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive: you have received
gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell
[shakan] among them." 

He was on Mt. Sinai when the hills leaped, and verse 18 speaks of the
resurrection and ascension which results in the indwelling of his people!
These are New Testament applications that place Jesus of Nazareth in the
events of Sinai in the Old Testament. 

Later the physical "Shekinah" presence of God took up residence in the
completed tabernacle and was apparent to the whole nation. This is recorded
in Ex. 40:34: 

Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD
["Cavod YHWH"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex. 40:35) And Moses was not able to
enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode [shakan] on
it, and the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH,"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex.
40:36) And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the
children of Israel went onward in all their journeys; (Ex. 40:37) But if the
cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was
taken up. (Ex. 40:38) For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by
day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel,
throughout all their journeys. 


The same event is recorded in Num. 9:15


And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the
tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon
the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning. (Num.
9:16) So it was always: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of
fire by night. (Num. 9:17) And when the cloud was taken up from the
tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed; and in the
place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their
tents. 

There are other mystical moments when the direct intervention of God was
manifest in a "Shekinah" presence to Moses. At the time of the setting up of
the tabernacle before it was furnished God spoke to Moses out of the cloud
and Moses realized the "Shekinah" was a vehicle and not God. He asked for
more -- to "see" God! God allowed him to see a larger portion of his
physical presence. Thus: 

(Ex. 33:18) "And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory. [He was
speaking to God's voice coming from the "Shekinah."] (Ex. 33:19) And he
said, I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the
name of the LORD before you, and will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will shew mercy. (Ex. 33:20) And he
said, You can not see my face; for no man shall see me, and live." 

After the entrance into the promised land God's presence was manifested
spiritually in the tabernacle and not often in a physical way. The actual
presence was always accepted as being in the tabernacle, and later in the
Temple, but was not always physically confirmed by the visible "Shekinah."
But to the people of that dispensation under the Mosaic covenant there were
occasional renewals of a miraculous appearance of the "Shekinah." This
happened again when the Temple of Solomon was dedicated. There was an
initial appearance in a vision when the LORD promised that he would "shakan"
or dwell in the house that Solomon was constructing. 

(1Ki. 6:11) And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, (1Ki. 6:12)
Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in my
statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in
them; then will I perform my word with you, which I spoke to David your
father; (1Ki. 6:13) And I will dwell ["shakan"] among the children of
Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. (1Ki. 6:14) So Solomon built
the house, and finished it. 

Solomon then visited the tabernacle which was not in Jerusalem but at
Gibeon. The ark of the covenant was in Jerusalem, however in a different
tent. 

(1Ch 16:39) And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the
tabernacle of the Lord in the high place that was in Gibeon, (1Ch 21:29) For
the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the
altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at
Gibeon. 

The ark of the covenant, which had been taken from the tabernacle by the
sons of Eli and was captured by Philistines, had then been sent by the
Philistines back to Judah. Eli's daughter-in-law called the taking of the
ark the departure of the glory of Israel. 

(1Sa 4:21) And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed
from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in
law and her husband. 

After an unhappy experience with the ark the Philistines sent it back to
Israel. Cows heavy with milk had left their calves and borne the ark from
the Philistines to the house of Obed Edom. It was from there after many
years that David would bring up the ark to Jerusalem, in the part of the
city called Zion, where he set it in a specially prepared tent. It was not
restored to the Tabernacle. 

(2Ch 1:4) But the ark of God had David brought up from Kiriath Jearim to the
place which David had prepared for it: for he had pitched a tent for it at
Jerusalem. 


But the tabernacle stayed in Gibeon about ten miles north of Jerusalem.


(1Ch 21:29) For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the
wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the
high place at Gibeon 

It was from there about ten miles north, that its furniture was brought to
the completed Temple of Solomon. 

(2Ch 5:2) Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of
the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, to
Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord out of the city
of David, which is Zion...(2Ch 5:5) And they brought up the ark, and the
tabernacle of the congregation, and all the holy vessels that were in the
tabernacle, these did the priests and the Levites bring up. 

They brought the tabernacle and its furniture from Gibeon and the ark was
brought from Zion, less than a mile from the Temple. Then the Temple was
dedicated. 

(2Ch 5:13) It came to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to
make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they
lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of
music, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth
for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the
Lord; 

Thus the same incident is recorded in 1 Ki.8, when on the day of the
dedication of Solomon's Temple there was a physical miracle of the presence
of God. The "Shekinah" would no longer be associated with the tabernacle but
was to be transferred to the Temple; therefore this manifestation was
necessary to that generation because the Law of Moses was being amended in
this point, and God showed his approval of the amendment to His legal system
by the manifestation of the "Shekinah." 

(1Ki. 8:10) And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy
place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, (1Ki. 8:11) So that the
priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of
the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] had filled the house of the LORD. (1Ki. 8:12) Then
spoke Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell [shakan] in the thick
darkness. (1Ki. 8:13) I have surely built you an house to dwell in, a
settled place for you to abide in for ever. 

There are conditions connected to God's "forever" promises as is already
seen since he was to indwell the tabernacle forever. Thus, at the
destruction of the first Temple, He did not allow his "Shekinah" presence to
stay in the Temple after a certain level of corruption had taken place. The
surprise is that God's indwelling remained so long. He evidently loves us so
much that he endures more than any human judge would think possible.
Jerusalem was more corrupt than we would think God would endure all of the
last days of Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin and most of the reign of Zedekiah.
However, Ezekiel's vision of the departure of the "Shekinah" from the Temple
and city was not until after the beginning of the final siege of the city by
Nebuchadnezzar just before its destruction. 

Ezekiel's description of the "Shekinah" is more detailed but is similar to
what the seventy elders saw on Mount Sinai recorded in Ex. 24. (It might be
inserted here as a warning to those who have the Holy Spirit living in them
that Nadab and Abihu were among those who "saw God.") Ezekiel's description
of the "Shekinah" in chapter one of his prophecy is physically exciting just
to read. Imagine actually seeing it! It is described as fire enfolding
itself borne by cherubic creatures whose appearance pulsated with undulating
light, themselves borne by gyroscopic double wheels. Lightning came out of
the midst of the fire surrounded by clear sapphire where a man like person
on a throne sat in an electric eye. If electricity is anachronistic, the
word is none the less "chashmal" which is the modern Hebrew word for
electricity. The Septuagint has "electrum" and so does the Vulgate! What
ever "chashmal" and "electrum" meant to the ancients who used these words it
can only be said that "'eyn chashmal" in Hebrew and "opsin electrou" in
Greek and "speciem electri" found in Latin in Eze. 1:27 is not "amber" as in
the English translation. The word "color" does not appear in the text. There
are other descriptions of the elements of the "Shekinah" that Ezekiel saw
leaving a then desolate Temple. The building was still there but was
desolate before it was destroyed! 


The Departure and Return of the "Shekinah."


Ezekiel saw both the departure of the "Shekinah" and the return in two
separate visions separated in time by a number of years. The "Shekinah"
would later return to the Temple after the initiation of the building under
Zerubbabel but before the arrival of Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezekiel saw the
restored Temple in a vision while it actually lay desolate and Jerusalem and
Judea were all but uninhabited. Ezekiel's vision, of events that happened
after his own death, describes the same "skekinah," which he saw first in
chapter one, afterward leave the Temple in chapter ten. At the beginning of
chapter ten the "Shekinah" was still in the Temple: 

(Eze. 10:4) Then the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the
cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled
with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory
["Cavod YHWH"]. 


But preparations were made to take the "Shekinah" from the Temple and then
from the city itself.


(Eze. 10:19) And the cherubim lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the
earth in my sight; when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and
every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the
glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 


Then the actual departure is recorded:


(Eze. 11:23) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the midst
of the city, and stood on the mountain which is on the east side of the
city. 

Ezekiel, still in a vision, returned to the captives in Babylon and reported
this event. He would later see in a vision the restored second Temple which
is recorded in chapters 40-43. In his vision of the Temple, as it would be
after it would have been rebuilt, Ezekiel saw the "Shekinah" return to the
Temple. Thus is that event recorded which he says was the same "Shekinah"
that left the Temple and would then be returned to a future restored Temple:


(Eze. 43:2) And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of
the east; and his voice was like a noise of many waters; and the earth
shined with his glory. (Eze. 43:3) And it was according to the appearance of
the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came
to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the
river Chebar; and I fell on my face. (Eze. 43:4) And the glory of the LORD
["Cavod YHWH"] came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is
toward the east. (Eze. 43:5) So the spirit took me up, and brought me into
the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] filled
the house. (Eze. 43:6) And I heard him speaking to me out of the house; and
the man stood by me. (Eze. 43:7) And he said to me, Son of man, the place of
my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell
[shakan] in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name,
shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by
their whoredom, nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places. 

This event which Ezekiel saw in a vision was fulfilled. It happened in the
days of Zerubbabel and is recorded by Zechariah. The lives of Zechariah and
Ezekiel overlapped. They were both prophets and priests. Surely they knew of
each other and it is likely they met. Zechariah knew of the visions of the
departure of the "Shekinah" and the return and therefore he records the
predictions of the return that would fulfill the same future event which
Ezekiel saw. Thus God first foretells his "Shekinah" return. 

(Zec. 2:10) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell [shakan] in the midst of you, says the LORD. 

This verse is a prediction of the return of the "Shekinah" which was
imminent but had not happened yet when Zechariah wrote this in the second
year of Darius. In what follows he foretells the, future but imminent, long
period of continuity of the restored "Shekinah" called "that day," meaning
that the period of time beginning with the restoration of the "Shekinah"
would extend to the call of the Gentiles. 

(Zec. 2:11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
shall be my people; and I will dwell ["shakan"] in the midst of you, and you
shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 

This verse also introduces references to a dual "Shekinah" return and
presence. One is to take place at the completion of the Temple and the other
to extend to the presence of the one who will actually be the "Shekinah,
whom YHWH will have sent to call the Gentiles. 

See also notes on Zecariah <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec2.htm#shek>
2:8-11. 


The Return of the "Shekinah" to the Restored Temple


>From the time that Zechariah began to prophesy in the second year of Darius
it would be approximately four years before the Temple would be finished and
dedicated. The building itself would be partially finished and complete
enough after two years of committed rebuilding that it would be called, in
chapter seven, "the house of God." It is in chapter eight that God speaks
and says that He has returned the "Shekinah." There is no record of the
actual event. Whether it was associated with physical phenomena is not told.
The only physical description is in the vision of Ezekiel which was not a
material event. Nonetheless the "Shekinah" and the real presence of the
omniscient God returned to the rededicated Temple on time, either at the
dedication or in anticipation as noted in Zec. 8:3
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec8.htm#8:3> . 

"Thus says the Lord; I am returned to Zion, and will dwell ["shakan"] in the
midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." 

(See notes in the text on these verses where the tenses of the verbs are
discussed. The reason for different translations of the tenses of the verbs
in several different versions which say that the "Shekinah" has returned or
shall return is discussed there)

Before the dedication of the Temple Darius the Persian, a non-Jewish
believer, sent letters, to the neighboring Syrians in response to their
attempts to stop the rebuilding then progressing under Zerubbabel, in which
he spoke of the "Shekinah" as present in Jerusalem. 

(Ezr. 6:12) And the God that has caused his name to dwell [shakan] there
destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to
destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a
decree; let it be done with speed. 

Here Darius attributes to God his decision to dwell or "shakan," as being
completed. Thus the return of his "Shekinah" presence in Jerusalem is
considered as a fact. This is before the dedication of the completed Temple
and was before or would nearly coincide with the time of Zec. 7:1
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec7.htm>  and Zec. 8:3.
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec8.htm#8:3>  


A generation later a new Persian king would send Ezra and mention the
"Shekinah."


(Ezr. 7:15) And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his
counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation
[Heb. mishkan] is in Jerusalem. 

This last comment is made by Artaxerxes Longimanus who commissioned Ezra and
who says the habitation ["Shekinah"] of God is in Jerusalem. These sources
are quoted by Porten, an active Jewish writer currently living in Jerusalem.
His position seems to favor the return of the "skekinah" before the actual
dedication. 

The Golden Age to come, which Zechariah said was to follow the return of the
"Shekinah," describes the city and surrounding areas being at peace in an
age where people can grow old in a secure environment. To those who lived in
Jerusalem, in the hearing of Zechariah, that would indeed be a marvel, so
great was the continuing desolation of the place. This continuing
desolation, after the return but before the rebuilding, was portrayed by
Daniel: 

(Dan. 9:12) And he has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us, and
against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for
under the whole heaven has not been done as has been done upon Jerusalem. 

But of the conditions which will follow the return of the "Shekinah"
Zechariah says: 

(Zec. 8:4) Thus says the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old
women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his
hand for very age. (Zec 8:5) And the streets of the city shall be full of
boys and girls playing in its streets. (Zec 8:6) Thus says the Lord of
hosts, If it be marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these
days, should it [not] also be marvelous in my eyes? says the Lord of hosts. 

The Golden Age is described in the chapter on the
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec1-5.htm#silent> "Silent Years" in this book
and in the verse by verse exposition of the text. Zechariah tells in his
prophecy that there will be times of trouble in the distant future after the
"Golden Age" and speaks of the presence of God who would then stand on Mt.
Olive. We know that that one who stood on Mt. Olive is the embodiment of the
mystery of the Godhead. "In him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells
bodily." 

Jesus of Nazareth, himself the embodiment of God, the manifestation of the
Almighty, lived in Israel while the "Shekinah" indwelt the Temple! He
prophesied the departure of the "Shekinah" which would make the Temple
desolate: 

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 

When he died on the cross and his spirit left the body there were
accompanying earthquakes, darkness, and that slippage between time and
eternity that one would expect at such extraordinary, inexplicable moments
when the finite and infinite meet. The dead bodies of many arose and walked
in the city as a result of his resurrection from the dead! But when he died,
at that very moment: 

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 

That the veil of the Temple was rent in two indicates the departure of the
"Shekinah" from the then desolate Temple. The Temple became desolate with
the departure of the "Shekinah," not at the time of its destruction. It was
made desolate by the departure of the presence of God. Daniel, when
prophesying of the destruction of the city and the Temple, says that the
destruction would be poured out on that which had already been made
desolate. Dan. <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/daniel.htm#9-27>
9:26,27. 

>From thenceforth the Temple would be manifested in two ways. Not in
buildings but in the hearts of spiritual Israel, the exiled ones called from
among the Gentiles to bring their treasures to Jerusalem. The assembled body
of believers also has the indwelling presence of which the "Shekinah" was a
representation in type. This same presence is in each obedient believer.
These dual aspects of the "Shekinah" were seen by Zechariah who completes
the Old Testament references to the "Shekinah" events. 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 294 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 1055 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment-0001.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 231 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment-0002.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 298 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment-0003.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1633 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 379 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment-0004.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 334 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/70b6acd5/attachment-0005.gif 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 11:25:25 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:25:25 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS383AC2C3DB217C66928ACBAD40@phx.gbl>

Hi Sharon!

I hope James will have time to comment on this most intriguing question.  I believe that the answer has to do with the premise that although the Ruach haKodesh, with the Ark of the Covenant, was present in the First Temple, it was not so in the Second.  The Ark has been missing since just before the demise of the First Temple, when it was secreted away (by Jeremiah with the help of some other men) before Jerusalem was captured.  However, when HaSHem allows it to be found again, His Ruach will return to the Land, and mankind will witness this event of the Ages!  This is not referring to HaSHem coming in the form of a man.

Love,

Pat  


From: Stephen & Sharon 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Dear James, and all,

I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?  The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.

Thanks for all the input,
Sharon


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: James Tabor 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 


  I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.


  Good week,


  James



   


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a8e455f8/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Sun May  4 11:40:56 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:40:56 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul
Message-ID: <976577525-1209919245-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2097623524-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I am in my study preparing my class for tonight. I am excited to read of all the interest in the topic of Messiah. Most of you know that I have studied the Bible with our own James Tabor for many years. My own studies and teachings have been greatly influenced by this. I really hope that people can listen in tonight for a continuation of the Messiah series. I will be working through the history of the monarchy tonight (not all of it). Tonight we will pick up from the demand for a king...
There are some surprises tonight as always. These classes are like cracker jacks.....a surprise in every box. Just joking! I hope you can listen in. 7 PM central.

Shalom, Ross
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 11:47:38 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:47:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
	<481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
	<481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>

Hi Cornie,

Yes, please do send me the entire file (as opposed to the shortened version).  If you could send it in an attachment, that would be great.  You may send it to my personal address if you so chose, or send it through the List, since an attachment would not tie up space on the Dialogue site.  That way everyone could look at it and save it to their computers if they wish.  Am looking very forward to seeing it.  I rather think that we have very much that we agree upon, but will certainly write you concerning anything I question.

Thank you so much, Cornie, and blessing be upon you and your family,

Pat


From: Cornie Reimer 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Pat and Jessica, I really admire your sincere search for the real truth. And this goes to you others as well. And Pat,  should you get to read my 70 plus questions, then please don't be shy to point out how you would differ. I am open to learn the from any source. As soon as you let me know what you want concerning those 70 questions I will send them to you. I have them in a shortened file of 5 or so pages, but they don't necessarily make sense without the 61 pages they belong to. Do you want me to send them to you personally in an attachment or  in a couple of e-mails. I don't have them divided into chapters. And now I may even look at them in a different light. I made a lengthy 6 page introduction. But all of this on the condition that I had no confidence in the N.T., (accept of course what agrees with the Tanach)

. The Pastor and me got along fine. Their is no bitterness or harshness if I remember it correct throughout our 1 - 1/2 years of dialogue. He was quite confident from the start that he would point it out to me through the Tanach , or Old Testament that I needed to come back to Christianity to be saved, and that it took a sacrifice of blood to be saved, he referred to Leviticus 16, (and I can not find it there so quick what it also says), I know it is there somewhere. It is true as he quotes, but at the same time it says that If they are to poor to be able to bring 2 turtle doves, for a sin offering, it suffices to bring a measure of meal, (no blood in it) for a sin offering. 

I believe and  agree it takes repentance to become free from sin. It is found in the Talmud (yoma 86b) that he who repents out of fear of punishment or divine retribution, his intentional sins are transformed into unintentional accidental sins, and he who repents out of his love for HaShem his intentional sins are transformed into merits.

I look forward to the message this evening from Ross, although I have to admit I did not quite see what exactly he wanted to tell us, or what he referred to. Much of it was a bit new to me at this point.

Cornie

Pat Robbins wrote: 
  Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this "spiritual" place to wait until the end for his time to return, I immediately think of Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a whirlwind while still in his physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We greatly anticipate Elijah's return, and since HaSHem is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He could conceivably have done something similar in regard to Yeshua.  

  I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, but now that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why not?"  There is precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form. 

  On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, then his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and there would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not there.  As I understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not added until a year after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to place the remaining bones into their box.  And, of course, because there have been times when N.T. editors appear to have reworked the original writings to accord with official dogma, as opposed to actual truth, I have had great difficulty wanting to look at it at all.

  Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the N.T. are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the facts buried therein while exposing every lie.  And may the name and memory of Yeshua be vindicated.

  Blessings to you,

  Pat 


  From: Jessica 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)
  We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived. Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a personal 'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.  Even though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to stick. The concept just raises another question in my head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form ???? I'm confused.
  Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.  This is the one time that it was essential for the people to be of  'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. 
  There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the Universe. 
  I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as our 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and the others in this Dialogue to travel with.
  May HaShem Bless your search,
  Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
  To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
  > 
  > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
  > 
  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
  > 
  > 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  _______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1412 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 4:34 PM
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/71553ee3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 11:58:15 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:58:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul
In-Reply-To: <976577525-1209919245-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2097623524-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <976577525-1209919245-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2097623524-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS5670A95A1478B1FD3A58FBAD40@phx.gbl>

Terrific, Ross!!!!  Can't wait!!!!  I love Sunday Shul.   ~ Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ross Nichols" <rndavar at aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:40 PM
To: "Dialogue List" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul

> I am in my study preparing my class for tonight. I am excited to read of 
> all the interest in the topic of Messiah. Most of you know that I have 
> studied the Bible with our own James Tabor for many years. My own studies 
> and teachings have been greatly influenced by this. I really hope that 
> people can listen in tonight for a continuation of the Messiah series. I 
> will be working through the history of the monarchy tonight (not all of 
> it). Tonight we will pick up from the demand for a king...
> There are some surprises tonight as always. These classes are like cracker 
> jacks.....a surprise in every box. Just joking! I hope you can listen in. 
> 7 PM central.
>
> Shalom, Ross
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> _______________________________________________
> 


From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun May  4 11:59:35 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 12:59:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish
	view
In-Reply-To: <04ad01c8ae02$9d2bcc40$d78364c0$@com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<04ad01c8ae02$9d2bcc40$d78364c0$@com>
Message-ID: <8CA7C1F5D67EDF9-4CC-6AAD@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Patty - 

??? Thanks!? But here again, other then Matthew (who did not personally witness it..), there is no confirmation that the Temple veil was torn in half when Yeshua died....

???????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:19 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view




Hi Hanoch,

?

Here is an article about Shekinah with references to Departure and Return: ?http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.htm


The Shekinah

The section which follows is a chapter from Fred P Miller's book, Zechariah and Jewish Renewal


Prophecies of the return of the "Shekinah," which had left the Temple and city of Jerusalem in the days of Ezekiel, are repeated in Zechariah. These same prophecies are also fulfilled in the historical period and record of Zechariah. To better understand these prophecies it is necessary to have an acquaintance with the history of the "Shekinah." 

Objection is made that the word "Shekinah," (), is not found in the scripture in its noun form and that it describes a concept that is not scriptural. It is said that the word is coined by Post-biblical Rabbinic scholars. While it is admitted that the Rabbinic concept of God being a hovering non-personal force is an unacceptable extension of meaning, the concept of a physical manifestation of God's localized dwelling is none-the-less scriptural. We have chosen to use the word "Shekinah," (shknh) , to name this "presence" since this meaning is in general distribution among many Christians, albeit ignorant of the origin of the word. 

The word was coined from verbal cognates in the Bible which describe the "presence" of God in a locality. The verbal cognates are copiously used to describe the "Shekinah" appearances. The word "Shekinah," itself is not in the biblical text but the concept, as I have defined it, clearly is. The word most certainly is derived from "shakan," and whoever first used the word "Shekinah" coined it as a substantive (noun form) from the verbal forms used to describe the "abiding, dwelling, or habitation" of the physical manifestations of God described in Ex 24:16; Ex 40:35, Nu 9:16-18; and numerous other places where "shakan" is used. The word is also used to describe the mystical "Shekinah" presence in the tabernacle. The word "mishkan," (), a derivative of "shakan," (), is often translated "tabernacle." The Hebrew for tabernacle is more often simply "ohel," (), or tent. "Mishkan" means "dwelling place." That is, the "dwelling place" of "Him who dwells" or "Shekinah." 

"Shekinah" in Hebrew is a a feminine noun, It is interesting that Isaiah refers to the Shekinah using feminine pronouns. Especially in Isaiah 51. Particularly in Isaiah 51:9and 10 and its context the pronouns are feminine. In verse 10 the KJV uses thou and it to refer to the Shekinah. Both pronouns are feminine in Hebrew. The Qumran text makes the feminine form certain by adding a yod to 2fs. Literally feminine "you she" translated in KJV "thou it." Without doubt this is why the inter-testament Rabbis coined the word Shekinah to describe the events where the physical presence performed miracles to guide and protect Israel. In the same passage (Isa 51:9) there is a phrase "arm of YHWH" that is used exclusively for the Messiah. This means Jesus was the Shekinah presence in the Old Testament events. That is why the coming of the Messiah and the return of the Shekinah to the second temple are intermixed in the extraordinarily mystically mixed passage of Zechariah 2:8-11. 

Zechariah uses cognates of the word in referring to the return of, the then absent, "presence" which he supposed was imminent. We will show that Zechariah previewed an imminent restoration of what Ezekiel (seventy years previously) saw depart in his day and then predicted the return of to a restored temple. What ever noun one calls it, such physical representations of the "presence" are in the Bible. What did Ezekiel see leave the temple? It is certain that what ever name you call the "presence" it is linked with the fiery cloud of Sinai. We have chosen to use the word "Shekinah" to name the biblically described mystical thing "dwelling" or thing "abiding." 

I also accept that "Cavod YHWH," () (glory of the LORD) and "Shekinah" are identical in the contexts I make reference to, such as the fire enfolding cloud on Sinai, (Ex. 24:15-17) the dedication of Solomon's temple, and that which is associated with Ezekiel's vision of the departure and return. 

To say that "Shekinah" is not in a text where the presence of God is described by a cognate of "shakan" may be closely akin to saying "baptism" does not appear in the great commission passages and Acts 2:38 because verbal cognates (baptized, baptizing) are used and not the noun "baptism" itself. 

The Hebrew verb "shakan," (), simply means to take up residence with long continuity in a neighborhood. The distinction between this word and "yashav" which is also translated "dwell" is just this: You can use the latter to mean an individual doing the dwelling without reference to others or to duration while "shakan" means a protracted dwelling in the midst of a neighborhood or a group of people or might be limited to one other person but only by extension. The primary meaning is to reside and continue as a member of the community. This is a common word used for all classes to convey this idea. However, when it refers to God it takes on an added mysticism which is obvious upon small consideration. 

When verbal forms are translated as nouns the word sometimes means "habitat." It is the habitat of animals and birds as well as humans and God. (Dan. 4:21) Grammatically, when verbal forms are translated as nouns, in Hebrew, they are called "substantives." Technically, "Shekinah", therefore is a substantive rather than a noun. 

God speaks of his "desire" for this relationship with his people. The "Shekinah" therefore refers to the presence of God that was, but is not now, physically manifested in the time- space continuum. It could be seen. The presence was a vehicle of the person of God in the three dimensional world. The understanding of Solomon that God can not actually be limited to Temples on earth because of his eternal nature is seen in 1Ki. 8:27: 

"But will God indeed dwell ["yashav"] on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built?" 

This omniscient eternal presence of the Almighty, that Solomon recognized, is the heavenly, but not the earthly, "Shekinah." Although the infinite spiritual presence is and was coincident with the physically discernable "Shekinah," it was distinguished from the physical even in Mosaic times. It is only in this infinite way that the "Shekinah" is now manifested. He indwells his people as a spirit. Isa. 57:15 says as much:

"For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits ("shakan") eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell ("shakan") in the high and holy place, and with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." 

"Who inhabits" In this passage the word "shokeyn," () translated "who inhabits," is as close to the meaning and direct use of the word "Shekinah" (), in the Bible, as one will find. The Hebrew letters, in the order they are pronounced, are sh = sh, = o, k = k, = ey, n = n. The unpointed original Hebrew is simply (). The form is a masculine participle and literally means "He who inhabits" or "the one who is inhabiting." This refers to God Himself. According to this verse, He is the "Inhabiter" of heaven and human hearts at one and the same time! The word "Shekinah" , which describes the physical thing which was "proof" of his "dwelling" on earth in the Mosaic dispensation, is akin to this construction. In fact, it is the identically same word, only the gender is changed. If you simply add the feminine ending to change it from a masculine to a feminine participle "shokeyn," (shkn), becomes "Shekinah" (shknh). Thus, the masculine form of the substantive "Shekinah" does appear in the Bible in Isaiah 57:15. 

In the Mosaic period the added physical "Shekinah" presence was evidence of the real which is omnipresent and unseen. In the Mosaic dispensation the "Shekinah" presence was physically disturbing. The presence was not God. It was a physical manifestation of the actual presence of God among his people and is to be distinguished from the "angel of the LORD." It was first evident in the crossing of the Red Sea in the escape from Egypt. There the "Shekinah" appeared as a cloudy pillar in the day and a fiery pillar at night. The nation was led by the "Shekinah" for forty years after which the "holy presence" of the omniscient God inhabited the tabernacle and the land of Israel. It was not always afterward physically manifested. Thus: 

(Num. 35:34) "Defile not therefore the land which you shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: ["shakan"] for I the LORD dwell ["shakan"] among the children of Israel." 

However when that presence was physically manifested it was frightening to those who beheld it.

(Ex. 24:15) And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount. (Ex. 24:16) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] abode ["shakan"] upon mount Sinai and the cloud covered it six days; and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. (Ex. 24:17) And the sight of the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. 

Earlier, the seventy elders had gone up into the cloud and actually saw the "Shekinah" glory, and they were so afraid they asked Moses never to take them again. As far as they were concerned, they saw God! You can only imagine their hair on end and their wide eyed appearance as they came down from the mountain exclaiming "We saw God! It was terrible!" 

(Ex. 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (Ex. 24:11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink. 

The mixture of clarity and confusion in similar passages is evidence of the mystical nature of the experience. They were disoriented and afraid and the later writing of the event records the confusion. 

The appearance a few days earlier of the physical presence of God on Mount Sinai is described as fire and cloud and thick darkness when the ten commandments were given. The Psalms contains a description of this event calling it a "Shekinah" presence. The description is in a Messianic portion and the Messiah is the "Shekinah" presence. He indwells ["shakan"] his people. 

(Ps. 68:16) "Why do you leap, you high hills? this is the hill [Sinai] which God desires to dwell ["shakan"] in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever. (Ps. 68:17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the LORD is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Ps. 68:18) You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive: you have received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [shakan] among them." 

He was on Mt. Sinai when the hills leaped, and verse 18 speaks of the resurrection and ascension which results in the indwelling of his people! These are New Testament applications that place Jesus of Nazareth in the events of Sinai in the Old Testament. 

Later the physical "Shekinah" presence of God took up residence in the completed tabernacle and was apparent to the whole nation. This is recorded in Ex. 40:34: 

Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex. 40:35) And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode [shakan] on it, and the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH,"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex. 40:36) And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys; (Ex. 40:37) But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. (Ex. 40:38) For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys. 

The same event is recorded in Num. 9:15

And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning. (Num. 9:16) So it was always: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night. (Num. 9:17) And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed; and in the place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their tents. 

There are other mystical moments when the direct intervention of God was manifest in a "Shekinah" presence to Moses. At the time of the setting up of the tabernacle before it was furnished God spoke to Moses out of the cloud and Moses realized the "Shekinah" was a vehicle and not God. He asked for more -- to "see" God! God allowed him to see a larger portion of his physical presence. Thus: 

(Ex. 33:18) "And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory. [He was speaking to God's voice coming from the "Shekinah."] (Ex. 33:19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you, and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will shew mercy. (Ex. 33:20) And he said, You can not see my face; for no man shall see me, and live." 

After the entrance into the promised land God's presence was manifested spiritually in the tabernacle and not often in a physical way. The actual presence was always accepted as being in the tabernacle, and later in the Temple, but was not always physically confirmed by the visible "Shekinah." But to the people of that dispensation under the Mosaic covenant there were occasional renewals of a miraculous appearance of the "Shekinah." This happened again when the Temple of Solomon was dedicated. There was an initial appearance in a vision when the LORD promised that he would "shakan" or dwell in the house that Solomon was constructing. 

(1Ki. 6:11) And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, (1Ki. 6:12) Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with you, which I spoke to David your father; (1Ki. 6:13) And I will dwell ["shakan"] among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. (1Ki. 6:14) So Solomon built the house, and finished it. 

Solomon then visited the tabernacle which was not in Jerusalem but at Gibeon. The ark of the covenant was in Jerusalem, however in a different tent. 

(1Ch 16:39) And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the Lord in the high place that was in Gibeon, (1Ch 21:29) For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon. 

The ark of the covenant, which had been taken from the tabernacle by the sons of Eli and was captured by Philistines, had then been sent by the Philistines back to Judah. Eli's daughter-in-law called the taking of the ark the departure of the glory of Israel. 

(1Sa 4:21) And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in law and her husband. 

After an unhappy experience with the ark the Philistines sent it back to Israel. Cows heavy with milk had left their calves and borne the ark from the Philistines to the house of Obed Edom. It was from there after many years that David would bring up the ark to Jerusalem, in the part of the city called Zion, where he set it in a specially prepared tent. It was not restored to the Tabernacle. 

(2Ch 1:4) But the ark of God had David brought up from Kiriath Jearim to the place which David had prepared for it: for he had pitched a tent for it at Jerusalem. 

But the tabernacle stayed in Gibeon about ten miles north of Jerusalem.

(1Ch 21:29) For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon 

It was from there about ten miles north, that its furniture was brought to the completed Temple of Solomon. 

(2Ch 5:2) Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, to Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord out of the city of David, which is Zion...(2Ch 5:5) And they brought up the ark, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and all the holy vessels that were in the tabernacle, these did the priests and the Levites bring up. 

They brought the tabernacle and its furniture from Gibeon and the ark was brought from Zion, less than a mile from the Temple. Then the Temple was dedicated. 

(2Ch 5:13) It came to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; 

Thus the same incident is recorded in 1 Ki.8, when on the day of the dedication of Solomon's Temple there was a physical miracle of the presence of God. The "Shekinah" would no longer be associated with the tabernacle but was to be transferred to the Temple; therefore this manifestation was necessary to that generation because the Law of Moses was being amended in this point, and God showed his approval of the amendment to His legal system by the manifestation of the "Shekinah." 

(1Ki. 8:10) And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, (1Ki. 8:11) So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] had filled the house of the LORD. (1Ki. 8:12) Then spoke Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell [shakan] in the thick darkness. (1Ki. 8:13) I have surely built you an house to dwell in, a settled place for you to abide in for ever. 

There are conditions connected to God's "forever" promises as is already seen since he was to indwell the tabernacle forever. Thus, at the destruction of the first Temple, He did not allow his "Shekinah" presence to stay in the Temple after a certain level of corruption had taken place. The surprise is that God's indwelling remained so long. He evidently loves us so much that he endures more than any human judge would think possible. Jerusalem was more corrupt than we would think God would endure all of the last days of Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin and most of the reign of Zedekiah. However, Ezekiel's vision of the departure of the "Shekinah" from the Temple and city was not until after the beginning of the final siege of the city by Nebuchadnezzar just before its destruction. 

Ezekiel's description of the "Shekinah" is more detailed but is similar to what the seventy elders saw on Mount Sinai recorded in Ex. 24. (It might be inserted here as a warning to those who have the Holy Spirit living in them that Nadab and Abihu were among those who "saw God.") Ezekiel's description of the "Shekinah" in chapter one of his prophecy is physically exciting just to read. Imagine actually seeing it! It is described as fire enfolding itself borne by cherubic creatures whose appearance pulsated with undulating light, themselves borne by gyroscopic double wheels. Lightning came out of the midst of the fire surrounded by clear sapphire where a man like person on a throne sat in an electric eye. If electricity is anachronistic, the word is none the less "chashmal" which is the modern Hebrew word for electricity. The Septuagint has "electrum" and so does the Vulgate! What ever "chashmal" and "electrum" meant to the ancients who used these words it can only be said that "'eyn chashmal" in Hebrew and "opsin electrou" in Greek and "speciem electri" found in Latin in Eze. 1:27 is not "amber" as in the English translation. The word "color" does not appear in the text. There are other descriptions of the elements of the "Shekinah" that Ezekiel saw leaving a then desolate Temple. The building was still there but was desolate before it was destroyed! 

The Departure and Return of the "Shekinah."

Ezekiel saw both the departure of the "Shekinah" and the return in two separate visions separated in time by a number of years. The "Shekinah" would later return to the Temple after the initiation of the building under Zerubbabel but before the arrival of Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezekiel saw the restored Temple in a vision while it actually lay desolate and Jerusalem and Judea were all but uninhabited. Ezekiel's vision, of events that happened after his own death, describes the same "skekinah," which he saw first in chapter one, afterward leave the Temple in chapter ten. At the beginning of chapter ten the "Shekinah" was still in the Temple: 

(Eze. 10:4) Then the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory ["Cavod YHWH"]. 

But preparations were made to take the "Shekinah" from the Temple and then from the city itself.

(Eze. 10:19) And the cherubim lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight; when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 

Then the actual departure is recorded:

(Eze. 11:23) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the midst of the city, and stood on the mountain which is on the east side of the city. 

Ezekiel, still in a vision, returned to the captives in Babylon and reported this event. He would later see in a vision the restored second Temple which is recorded in chapters 40-43. In his vision of the Temple, as it would be after it would have been rebuilt, Ezekiel saw the "Shekinah" return to the Temple. Thus is that event recorded which he says was the same "Shekinah" that left the Temple and would then be returned to a future restored Temple: 

(Eze. 43:2) And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east; and his voice was like a noise of many waters; and the earth shined with his glory. (Eze. 43:3) And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. (Eze. 43:4) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. (Eze. 43:5) So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] filled the house. (Eze. 43:6) And I heard him speaking to me out of the house; and the man stood by me. (Eze. 43:7) And he said to me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell [shakan] in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places. 

This event which Ezekiel saw in a vision was fulfilled. It happened in the days of Zerubbabel and is recorded by Zechariah. The lives of Zechariah and Ezekiel overlapped. They were both prophets and priests. Surely they knew of each other and it is likely they met. Zechariah knew of the visions of the departure of the "Shekinah" and the return and therefore he records the predictions of the return that would fulfill the same future event which Ezekiel saw. Thus God first foretells his "Shekinah" return. 

(Zec. 2:10) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell [shakan] in the midst of you, says the LORD. 

This verse is a prediction of the return of the "Shekinah" which was imminent but had not happened yet when Zechariah wrote this in the second year of Darius. In what follows he foretells the, future but imminent, long period of continuity of the restored "Shekinah" called "that day," meaning that the period of time beginning with the restoration of the "Shekinah" would extend to the call of the Gentiles. 

(Zec. 2:11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell ["shakan"] in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 

This verse also introduces references to a dual "Shekinah" return and presence. One is to take place at the completion of the Temple and the other to extend to the presence of the one who will actually be the "Shekinah, whom YHWH will have sent to call the Gentiles. 

See also notes on Zecariah 2:8-11. 

The Return of the "Shekinah" to the Restored Temple

>From the time that Zechariah began to prophesy in the second year of Darius it would be approximately four years before the Temple would be finished and dedicated. The building itself would be partially finished and complete enough after two years of committed rebuilding that it would be called, in chapter seven, "the house of God." It is in chapter eight that God speaks and says that He has returned the "Shekinah." There is no record of the actual event. Whether it was associated with physical phenomena is not told. The only physical description is in the vision of Ezekiel which was not a material event. Nonetheless the "Shekinah" and the real presence of the omniscient God returned to the rededicated Temple on time, either at the dedication or in anticipation as noted in Zec. 8:3. 

"Thus says the Lord; I am returned to Zion, and will dwell ["shakan"] in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." 

(See notes in the text on these verses where the tenses of the verbs are discussed. The reason for different translations of the tenses of the verbs in several different versions which say that the "Shekinah" has returned or shall return is discussed there)

Before the dedication of the Temple Darius the Persian, a non-Jewish believer, sent letters, to the neighboring Syrians in response to their attempts to stop the rebuilding then progressing under Zerubbabel, in which he spoke of the "Shekinah" as present in Jerusalem. 

(Ezr. 6:12) And the God that has caused his name to dwell [shakan] there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed. 

Here Darius attributes to God his decision to dwell or "shakan," as being completed. Thus the return of his "Shekinah" presence in Jerusalem is considered as a fact. This is before the dedication of the completed Temple and was before or would nearly coincide with the time of Zec. 7:1 and Zec. 8:3. 

A generation later a new Persian king would send Ezra and mention the "Shekinah."

(Ezr. 7:15) And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation [Heb. mishkan] is in Jerusalem. 

This last comment is made by Artaxerxes Longimanus who commissioned Ezra and who says the habitation ["Shekinah"] of God is in Jerusalem. These sources are quoted by Porten, an active Jewish writer currently living in Jerusalem. His position seems to favor the return of the "skekinah" before the actual dedication. 

The Golden Age to come, which Zechariah said was to follow the return of the "Shekinah," describes the city and surrounding areas being at peace in an age where people can grow old in a secure environment. To those who lived in Jerusalem, in the hearing of Zechariah, that would indeed be a marvel, so great was the continuing desolation of the place. This continuing desolation, after the return but before the rebuilding, was portrayed by Daniel: 

(Dan. 9:12) And he has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven has not been done as has been done upon Jerusalem. 

But of the conditions which will follow the return of the "Shekinah" Zechariah says: 

(Zec. 8:4) Thus says the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. (Zec 8:5) And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets. (Zec 8:6) Thus says the Lord of hosts, If it be marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it [not] also be marvelous in my eyes? says the Lord of hosts. 

The Golden Age is described in the chapter on the "Silent Years" in this book and in the verse by verse exposition of the text. Zechariah tells in his prophecy that there will be times of trouble in the distant future after the "Golden Age" and speaks of the presence of God who would then stand on Mt. Olive. We know that that one who stood on Mt. Olive is the embodiment of the mystery of the Godhead. "In him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily." 

Jesus of Nazareth, himself the embodiment of God, the manifestation of the Almighty, lived in Israel while the "Shekinah" indwelt the Temple! He prophesied the departure of the "Shekinah" which would make the Temple desolate: 

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 

When he died on the cross and his spirit left the body there were accompanying earthquakes, darkness, and that slippage between time and eternity that one would expect at such extraordinary, inexplicable moments when the finite and infinite meet. The dead bodies of many arose and walked in the city as a result of his resurrection from the dead! But when he died, at that very moment: 

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 

That the veil of the Temple was rent in two indicates the departure of the "Shekinah" from the then desolate Temple. The Temple became desolate with the departure of the "Shekinah," not at the time of its destruction. It was made desolate by the departure of the presence of God. Daniel, when prophesying of the destruction of the city and the Temple, says that the destruction would be poured out on that which had already been made desolate. Dan. 9:26,27. 

>From thenceforth the Temple would be manifested in two ways. Not in buildings but in the hearts of spiritual Israel, the exiled ones called from among the Gentiles to bring their treasures to Jerusalem. The assembled body of believers also has the indwelling presence of which the "Shekinah" was a representation in type. This same presence is in each obedient believer. These dual aspects of the "Shekinah" were seen by Zechariah who completes the Old Testament references to the "Shekinah" events. 

?





_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 294 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 1055 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0001.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 231 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0002.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 298 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0003.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1633 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 379 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0004.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 231 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0005.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 334 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0006.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 294 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0007.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 334 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/21aff445/attachment-0008.gif 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 13:19:10 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:19:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
	<050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <050420081819.10545.481DFE1D000AFB120000293122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Well, yeah I do.  But you haven't shared the lyrics with the list as far as I know.  So jump on in.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from chattertonw at bellsouth.net: -------------- 


As you may remember, John, the new song I am working explores and expounds these 'non-traditional' roles of Yeshua...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a19be903/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 13:31:24 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:31:24 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420081819.10545.481DFE1D000AFB120000293122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com>
	<050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<050420081819.10545.481DFE1D000AFB120000293122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <050420081831.20520.481E00FC000091A10000502822230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Well, OK... I usually don't put out incomplete material, as it tends to morph in the making... but that having been said, here are the first two verses, slightly tweaked from when you last read them (that morphing!):

Yeshua came in absolute submission
to the Father's ancient Master Plan
to regather the lost sheep of His pasture
and bring us back to our ancestral land.

Yeshua walked the Torah in perfection
from its path he never turned aside
leading us with great joy home to our Father
forever in His presence to abide...

Please understand that this is still a work in progress. I have two more verses (partial) and the chord progression for the bridge, but as yet no lyrics. They will come, in His timing!

Glenn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/aace7b57/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 13:44:29 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 18:44:29 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.


I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.


Good week,


James




On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

The thought that follows is new to me.  

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Boker tov L'Kulchem,

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
    
    







Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a3cb448e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 13:46:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:46:58 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com><050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><050420081819.10545.481DFE1D000AFB120000293122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<050420081831.20520.481E00FC000091A10000502822230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <bfe.377fbf38.354b17ef@aol.com><050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><050420081542.24889.481DD9780009BF570000613922218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><050420081819.10545.481DFE1D000AFB120000293122230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<050420081831.20520.481E00FC000091A10000502822230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS31CF1414928D21AEE0E37BAD40@phx.gbl>

Thank you so much for sharing this, Glen!  It's wonderful!  ~ Pat


From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Well, OK... I usually don't put out incomplete material, as it tends to morph in the making... but that having been said, here are the first two verses, slightly tweaked from when you last read them (that morphing!):

Yeshua came in absolute submission
to the Father's ancient Master Plan
to regather the lost sheep of His pasture
and bring us back to our ancestral land.

Yeshua walked the Torah in perfection
from its path he never turned aside
leading us with great joy home to our Father
forever in His presence to abide...

Please understand that this is still a work in progress. I have two more verses (partial) and the chord progression for the bridge, but as yet no lyrics. They will come, in His timing!

Glenn


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a6dbf34a/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Sun May  4 14:06:38 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 15:06:38 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..
In-Reply-To: <c24.34e531c2.354c9692@aol.com>
References: <c24.34e531c2.354c9692@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CA7C311D0FC018-9F0-2BD3@WEBMAIL-DC14.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Clyde - 

??? Clearly, we are living at a time, when HaShem has orchestrated things to occur at an amazing pace - without the MBD, on the scene: The rebirth of the modern State of Israel, and even more so - the miraculous return of Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem, Golan, Sinai & Gaza (oops...gave those away, since) in June, 1967.? The miraculous victory of Israel in October 1973, when we seemed on the verge of being crushed by the invading Egyptians & Syrians.

???? We had THE moment (1967) waiting for us for the Geula (total redemption), but we blew it....more on that, separately.

???? Take care,
??????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Fri, 2 May 2008 12:08 pm
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..



Hanoch,?Thanks to James Tabor and his striking article - The Return of YHVH to Earth [and I proved it was?on the mark through my own study] I want to ask you, and of course it goes against the Christian view,?expecting the next big moment as the coming of the MBD. And that is before there is a MBD, the return of YHVH to fulfill all that he declared to his servants the prophets. So what is your view on that? Or the?view of anyone else for that matter?

?

Clyde




Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.




Attached Message




From:

YoungBarzel at aol.com



To:

dialogue at rootsoffaith.org



Subject:

Re: [Dialogue] Shabbat reading..



Date:

Fri, 2 May 2008 11:31:35 EDT






Hey Clyde - 

?

????You're very welcome - I really enjoyed the year I spent working with Rav Binny, for the Torah he shared.? On top of that, he tells the BEST stories!

?

????Oh, the Northern/Southern thing is actually very simple: Divine irony!? That y'all are from the North, and Lil ol' Hanoch is a Southern Boy!? :-)??:-)? HaShem is teasing us, the whole time!

?

????Have a Shabbat Shalom pal -?

?

???????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...




Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________








_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a05bada2/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 14:21:47 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 14:21:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
In-Reply-To: <c15.12edd175.354e8564@aol.com>
Message-ID: <034d01c8ae1c$18cb8ed0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Dear Hanoch,

 

You are too dear and too funny!  Don't you know the real reason I"ve been
hiding out is to make you come to Texas.you know you promised earlier that
you would have a "sit in" in my living room!!!  I was counting on that!

 

No, seriously, I have just been super busy and inundated with so many things
that I have met myself coming and going.I can only burn the candle at both
ends for so long and then I crash!  And I did.  I am still trying to catch
up my sleep, and all the things I have left to do.looks like another busy
week ahead, plus I won't tell you the number of emails I have in my inbox!!!
It is over the top!

Not that I am complaining.I think it is wonderful that all of the great
"dialogue" is going on;  I am just disappointed that I have had to miss out
on it.

 

I do really appreciate the concern so much.I will have some time today to do
a little catching up!!!  You guys are prolific writers!

 

Much love, many blessings, and shavua tov to you and all

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?

 

Shavua tov Betty!

 

    We all miss you - so where are you hiding?  I don't have the time to
come down to Texas this week to search for you, so please speak up now!  :-)


 

    And if I have to come to Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty
sight!

 

    Luv ya,

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/01505b1e/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 14:30:15 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:30:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS266B3E0536E79F2992F7ABAD40@phx.gbl>

More like bringing out the confetti and Manischewitz~!~~~~!   This does makes sense, John!!!

Also, as an aside, am thinking that if Yeshua was trying to regather the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, couldn't that have potentially toppled the entire Roman Empire?  If the Lost Ones had started returning en masse to the Land, wouldn't their defection have weakened the Empire in many of its regions?  It would be the same as if they start returning in colossal numbers today, wouldn't that upset the balance of power in our world?  

For this reason, there is very great incentive from the enemies of G-d to keep the whole thing on a spiritual level, not a physical one.  If people wake up and hear HaSHem's whistle, the nations will be depleted of many of their brightest and best, for both Judah and Israel will Return!  ~Pat

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


  -------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

  One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 


  I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.


  Good week,


  James




  On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

    I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

    There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

    1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
    2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
    3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

    The thought that follows is new to me.  

    It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

    That's all I got right now.  Comments?

    --
    John C. 

    "Be excellent to each other!" 
    Bill and Ted 


      -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


      Boker tov L'Kulchem,

          I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

          PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

          Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

      What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

      1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

      2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

      3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

      4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

      5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

      6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

          The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

              Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

              B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
      Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
          
          






--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
    _______________________________________________





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/24b94ab5/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 14:57:11 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:57:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish
	view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7C1F5D67EDF9-4CC-6AAD@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>	<04ad01c8ae02$9d2bcc40$d78364c0$@com>
	<8CA7C1F5D67EDF9-4CC-6AAD@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <052601c8ae21$0c9a4610$25ced230$@com>

Shalom Hanoch,

 

There have been many "explanations" of what the Rending of the Veil meant -
some say it was G-d tearing the Kingdom away, or now the Gentiles could
access G-d, etc., but I am of the thought that it was Shekinah departing.
Luke gives the same account as Matthew - "And it was about the sixth hour,
and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the
sun was darkened, and the veil of the Temple was rent it the midst.' Luke
23:44-45. Tacitus, Josephus and the Talmud write of a DESOLATION occurring:

 Josephus - War of the Jews: "Thus also, before the Jewish rebellion, and
before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in
great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the
month Xanthicus [Nisan] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light
shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright
day-time; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a
good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as
to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same
festival also, a heifer, as she was being led by the high priest to be
sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the
eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and
vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested
upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm
floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of
its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now, those that kept watch
in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told
him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was
able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very
happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But
the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was
dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage
of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal foreshewed
the DESOLATION that was coming upon them" - (IV,5,3). 

Jewish Talmud in Yoma 39b: "Forty years before the Temple was destroyed
[i.e., 40 years before 70 A.D., or in 30 A.D.] . . .the gates of the Hekel
[Holy Place] opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked
them [the gates] saying, Hekel, Hekel, why alarmist thou us? We know that
thou art destined to be destroyed..." 

Talmud: "Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was
BANISHED (from the Chamber of Hewn Stone) and sat in the trading station (on
the Temple Mount)" - (Shabbat 15a). 

Tacitus: ".the doors of the shrine (Temple) opened and a superhuman voice
cried: 'The g-ds are departing': at the same moment a might stir of their
going was heard." Hist. 5.13

There have been several books and papers written on this, Ernest Martin
wrote something I think.

Blessings,

Patty 

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the
Jewish view

 

Hi Patty - 

    Thanks!  But here again, other then Matthew (who did not personally
witness it..), there is no confirmation that the Temple veil was torn in
half when Yeshua died....

             Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:19 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Shekinah - was The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish
view

Hi Hanoch,

 

Here is an article about Shekinah with references to Departure and Return:
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.htm>
http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.htm


The Shekinah


The section which follows is a chapter from Fred P Miller's book, Zechariah
and <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zecharia.htm>  Jewish Renewal


 <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zecharia.htm> 
Prophecies of the return of the "Shekinah," which had left the Temple and
city of Jerusalem in the days of Ezekiel, are repeated in Zechariah. These
same prophecies are also fulfilled in the historical period and record of
Zechariah. To better understand these prophecies it is necessary to have an
acquaintance with the history of the "Shekinah." 

Objection is made that the word "Shekinah,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shekinah.gif), is not found in the scripture in
its noun form and that it describes a concept that is not scriptural. It is
said that the word is coined by Post-biblical Rabbinic scholars. While it is
admitted that the Rabbinic concept of God being a hovering non-personal
force is an unacceptable extension of meaning, the concept of a physical
manifestation of God's localized dwelling is none-the-less scriptural. We
have chosen to use the word "Shekinah," (shknh) , to name this "presence"
since this meaning is in general distribution among many Christians, albeit
ignorant of the origin of the word. 

The word was coined from verbal cognates in the Bible which describe the
"presence" of God in a locality. The verbal cognates are copiously used to
describe the "Shekinah" appearances. The word "Shekinah," itself is not in
the biblical text but the concept, as I have defined it, clearly is. The
word most certainly is derived from "shakan," and whoever first used the
word "Shekinah" coined it as a substantive (noun form) from the verbal forms
used to describe the "abiding, dwelling, or habitation" of the physical
manifestations of God described in Ex 24:16
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#24-16> ; Ex 40:35
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#40-35> , Nu 9:16-18
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/Numbers.htm#9-16-17> ; and
numerous other places where "shakan" is used. The word is also used to
describe the mystical "Shekinah" presence in the tabernacle. The word
"mishkan," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/mishkan.gif), a derivative of
"shakan," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shakan.gif), is often translated
"tabernacle." The Hebrew for tabernacle is more often simply "ohel,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/ohel.gif), or tent. "Mishkan" means "dwelling
place." That is, the "dwelling place" of "Him who dwells" or "Shekinah." 

"Shekinah" in Hebrew is a a feminine noun, It is interesting that Isaiah
refers to the Shekinah using feminine pronouns. Especially in Isaiah 51.
Particularly in Isaiah <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa50-52.htm#rahab>
51:9and 10 and its context the pronouns are feminine. In verse 10 the KJV
uses thou and it to refer to the Shekinah. Both pronouns are feminine in
Hebrew. The Qumran text makes the feminine form certain by adding a yod to
2fs. http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/youshe.jpgLiterally feminine "you she"
translated in KJV "thou it." Without doubt this is why the inter-testament
Rabbis coined the word Shekinah to describe the events where the physical
presence performed miracles to guide and protect Israel. In the same passage
(Isa 51:9) there is a phrase "arm of YHWH" that is used exclusively for the
Messiah. This means Jesus was the Shekinah presence in the Old Testament
events. That is why the coming of the Messiah and the return of the Shekinah
to the second temple are intermixed in the extraordinarily mystically mixed
passage of Zechariah 2:8-11
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/zecharia.htm#2-8> . 

Zechariah uses cognates of the word in referring to the return of, the then
absent, "presence" which he supposed was imminent. We will show that
Zechariah previewed an imminent restoration of what Ezekiel (seventy years
previously) saw depart in his day and then predicted the return of to a
restored temple. What ever noun one calls it, such physical representations
of the "presence" are in the Bible. What did Ezekiel see leave the temple?
It is certain that what ever name you call the "presence" it is linked with
the fiery cloud of Sinai. We have chosen to use the word "Shekinah" to name
the biblically described mystical thing "dwelling" or thing "abiding." 

I also accept that "Cavod YHWH," (http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/cavodyhwh.gif)
(glory of the LORD) and "Shekinah" are identical in the contexts I make
reference to, such as the fire enfolding cloud on Sinai, (Ex. 24:15-17)
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/exodus.htm#24-16>  the dedication
of Solomon's temple, and that which is associated with Ezekiel's vision of
the departure and return. 

To say that "Shekinah" is not in a text where the presence of God is
described by a cognate of "shakan" may be closely akin to saying "baptism"
does not appear in the great commission passages and Acts 2:38 because
verbal cognates (baptized, baptizing) are used and not the noun "baptism"
itself. 

The Hebrew verb "shakan," (), simply means to take up residence with long
continuity in a neighborhood. The distinction between this word and "yashav"
which is also translated "dwell" is just this: You can use the latter to
mean an individual doing the dwelling without reference to others or to
duration while "shakan" means a protracted dwelling in the midst of a
neighborhood or a group of people or might be limited to one other person
but only by extension. The primary meaning is to reside and continue as a
member of the community. This is a common word used for all classes to
convey this idea. However, when it refers to God it takes on an added
mysticism which is obvious upon small consideration. 

When verbal forms are translated as nouns the word sometimes means
"habitat." It is the habitat of animals and birds as well as humans and God.
(Dan. <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/daniel.htm#4-21>  4:21)
Grammatically, when verbal forms are translated as nouns, in Hebrew, they
are called "substantives." Technically, "Shekinah", therefore is a
substantive rather than a noun. 

God speaks of his "desire" for this relationship with his people. The
"Shekinah" therefore refers to the presence of God that was, but is not now,
physically manifested in the time- space continuum. It could be seen. The
presence was a vehicle of the person of God in the three dimensional world.
The understanding of Solomon that God can not actually be limited to Temples
on earth because of his eternal nature is seen in 1Ki. 8:27: 


"But will God indeed dwell ["yashav"] on the earth? behold, the heaven and
heaven of heavens cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have
built?" 


This omniscient eternal presence of the Almighty, that Solomon recognized,
is the heavenly, but not the earthly, "Shekinah." Although the infinite
spiritual presence is and was coincident with the physically discernable
"Shekinah," it was distinguished from the physical even in Mosaic times. It
is only in this infinite way that the "Shekinah" is now manifested. He
indwells his people as a spirit. Isa. 57:15 says as much:

"For thus says the high and lofty One who inhabits ("shakan") eternity,
whose name is Holy; I dwell ("shakan") in the high and holy place, and with
him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of
the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." 

"Who inhabits" In this passage the word "shokeyn,"
(http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/shokeyn.gif) translated "who inhabits," is as
close to the meaning and direct use of the word "Shekinah" (), in the Bible,
as one will find. The Hebrew letters, in the order they are pronounced, are
sh = sh, = o, k = k, = ey, n = n. The unpointed original Hebrew is simply
(). The form is a masculine participle and literally means "He who inhabits"
or "the one who is inhabiting." This refers to God Himself. According to
this verse, He is the "Inhabiter" of heaven and human hearts at one and the
same time! The word "Shekinah" , which describes the physical thing which
was "proof" of his "dwelling" on earth in the Mosaic dispensation, is akin
to this construction. In fact, it is the identically same word, only the
gender is changed. If you simply add the feminine ending to change it from a
masculine to a feminine participle "shokeyn," (shkn), becomes "Shekinah"
(shknh). Thus, the masculine form of the substantive "Shekinah" does appear
in the Bible in Isaiah 57:15. 

In the Mosaic period the added physical "Shekinah" presence was evidence of
the real which is omnipresent and unseen. In the Mosaic dispensation the
"Shekinah" presence was physically disturbing. The presence was not God. It
was a physical manifestation of the actual presence of God among his people
and is to be distinguished from the "angel of the LORD." It was first
evident in the crossing of the Red Sea in the escape from Egypt. There the
"Shekinah" appeared as a cloudy pillar in the day and a fiery pillar at
night. The nation was led by the "Shekinah" for forty years after which the
"holy presence" of the omniscient God inhabited the tabernacle and the land
of Israel. It was not always afterward physically manifested. Thus: 

(Num. 35:34) "Defile not therefore the land which you shall inhabit, wherein
I dwell: ["shakan"] for I the LORD dwell ["shakan"] among the children of
Israel." 


However when that presence was physically manifested it was frightening to
those who beheld it.


(Ex. 24:15) And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
(Ex. 24:16) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] abode ["shakan"] upon
mount Sinai and the cloud covered it six days; and the seventh day he called
unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. (Ex. 24:17) And the sight of the
glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] was like devouring fire on the top of the
mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. 

Earlier, the seventy elders had gone up into the cloud and actually saw the
"Shekinah" glory, and they were so afraid they asked Moses never to take
them again. As far as they were concerned, they saw God! You can only
imagine their hair on end and their wide eyed appearance as they came down
from the mountain exclaiming "We saw God! It was terrible!" 

(Ex. 24:10) And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as
it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven
in his clearness. (Ex. 24:11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel
he laid not his hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink. 

The mixture of clarity and confusion in similar passages is evidence of the
mystical nature of the experience. They were disoriented and afraid and the
later writing of the event records the confusion. 

The appearance a few days earlier of the physical presence of God on Mount
Sinai is described as fire and cloud and thick darkness when the ten
commandments were given. The Psalms contains a description of this event
calling it a "Shekinah" presence. The description is in a Messianic portion
and the Messiah is the "Shekinah" presence. He indwells ["shakan"] his
people. 

(Ps. 68:16) "Why do you leap, you high hills? this is the hill [Sinai] which
God desires to dwell ["shakan"] in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
(Ps. 68:17) The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of
angels: the LORD is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. (Ps. 68:18)
You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive: you have received
gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell
[shakan] among them." 

He was on Mt. Sinai when the hills leaped, and verse 18 speaks of the
resurrection and ascension which results in the indwelling of his people!
These are New Testament applications that place Jesus of Nazareth in the
events of Sinai in the Old Testament. 

Later the physical "Shekinah" presence of God took up residence in the
completed tabernacle and was apparent to the whole nation. This is recorded
in Ex. 40:34: 

Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD
["Cavod YHWH"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex. 40:35) And Moses was not able to
enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode [shakan] on
it, and the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH,"] filled the tabernacle. (Ex.
40:36) And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the
children of Israel went onward in all their journeys; (Ex. 40:37) But if the
cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was
taken up. (Ex. 40:38) For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by
day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel,
throughout all their journeys. 


The same event is recorded in Num. 9:15


And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the
tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon
the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning. (Num.
9:16) So it was always: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of
fire by night. (Num. 9:17) And when the cloud was taken up from the
tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed; and in the
place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their
tents. 

There are other mystical moments when the direct intervention of God was
manifest in a "Shekinah" presence to Moses. At the time of the setting up of
the tabernacle before it was furnished God spoke to Moses out of the cloud
and Moses realized the "Shekinah" was a vehicle and not God. He asked for
more -- to "see" God! God allowed him to see a larger portion of his
physical presence. Thus: 

(Ex. 33:18) "And he said, I beseech you, show me your glory. [He was
speaking to God's voice coming from the "Shekinah."] (Ex. 33:19) And he
said, I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the
name of the LORD before you, and will be gracious to whom I will be
gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will shew mercy. (Ex. 33:20) And he
said, You can not see my face; for no man shall see me, and live." 

After the entrance into the promised land God's presence was manifested
spiritually in the tabernacle and not often in a physical way. The actual
presence was always accepted as being in the tabernacle, and later in the
Temple, but was not always physically confirmed by the visible "Shekinah."
But to the people of that dispensation under the Mosaic covenant there were
occasional renewals of a miraculous appearance of the "Shekinah." This
happened again when the Temple of Solomon was dedicated. There was an
initial appearance in a vision when the LORD promised that he would "shakan"
or dwell in the house that Solomon was constructing. 

(1Ki. 6:11) And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying, (1Ki. 6:12)
Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in my
statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in
them; then will I perform my word with you, which I spoke to David your
father; (1Ki. 6:13) And I will dwell ["shakan"] among the children of
Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel. (1Ki. 6:14) So Solomon built
the house, and finished it. 

Solomon then visited the tabernacle which was not in Jerusalem but at
Gibeon. The ark of the covenant was in Jerusalem, however in a different
tent. 

(1Ch 16:39) And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the
tabernacle of the Lord in the high place that was in Gibeon, (1Ch 21:29) For
the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the
altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at
Gibeon. 

The ark of the covenant, which had been taken from the tabernacle by the
sons of Eli and was captured by Philistines, had then been sent by the
Philistines back to Judah. Eli's daughter-in-law called the taking of the
ark the departure of the glory of Israel. 

(1Sa 4:21) And she named the child Ichabod, saying, The glory is departed
from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in
law and her husband. 

After an unhappy experience with the ark the Philistines sent it back to
Israel. Cows heavy with milk had left their calves and borne the ark from
the Philistines to the house of Obed Edom. It was from there after many
years that David would bring up the ark to Jerusalem, in the part of the
city called Zion, where he set it in a specially prepared tent. It was not
restored to the Tabernacle. 

(2Ch 1:4) But the ark of God had David brought up from Kiriath Jearim to the
place which David had prepared for it: for he had pitched a tent for it at
Jerusalem. 


But the tabernacle stayed in Gibeon about ten miles north of Jerusalem.


(1Ch 21:29) For the tabernacle of the Lord, which Moses made in the
wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the
high place at Gibeon 

It was from there about ten miles north, that its furniture was brought to
the completed Temple of Solomon. 

(2Ch 5:2) Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of
the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, to
Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the Lord out of the city
of David, which is Zion...(2Ch 5:5) And they brought up the ark, and the
tabernacle of the congregation, and all the holy vessels that were in the
tabernacle, these did the priests and the Levites bring up. 

They brought the tabernacle and its furniture from Gibeon and the ark was
brought from Zion, less than a mile from the Temple. Then the Temple was
dedicated. 

(2Ch 5:13) It came to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to
make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they
lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of
music, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth
for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the
Lord; 

Thus the same incident is recorded in 1 Ki.8, when on the day of the
dedication of Solomon's Temple there was a physical miracle of the presence
of God. The "Shekinah" would no longer be associated with the tabernacle but
was to be transferred to the Temple; therefore this manifestation was
necessary to that generation because the Law of Moses was being amended in
this point, and God showed his approval of the amendment to His legal system
by the manifestation of the "Shekinah." 

(1Ki. 8:10) And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy
place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, (1Ki. 8:11) So that the
priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of
the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] had filled the house of the LORD. (1Ki. 8:12) Then
spoke Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell [shakan] in the thick
darkness. (1Ki. 8:13) I have surely built you an house to dwell in, a
settled place for you to abide in for ever. 

There are conditions connected to God's "forever" promises as is already
seen since he was to indwell the tabernacle forever. Thus, at the
destruction of the first Temple, He did not allow his "Shekinah" presence to
stay in the Temple after a certain level of corruption had taken place. The
surprise is that God's indwelling remained so long. He evidently loves us so
much that he endures more than any human judge would think possible.
Jerusalem was more corrupt than we would think God would endure all of the
last days of Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin and most of the reign of Zedekiah.
However, Ezekiel's vision of the departure of the "Shekinah" from the Temple
and city was not until after the beginning of the final siege of the city by
Nebuchadnezzar just before its destruction. 

Ezekiel's description of the "Shekinah" is more detailed but is similar to
what the seventy elders saw on Mount Sinai recorded in Ex. 24. (It might be
inserted here as a warning to those who have the Holy Spirit living in them
that Nadab and Abihu were among those who "saw God.") Ezekiel's description
of the "Shekinah" in chapter one of his prophecy is physically exciting just
to read. Imagine actually seeing it! It is described as fire enfolding
itself borne by cherubic creatures whose appearance pulsated with undulating
light, themselves borne by gyroscopic double wheels. Lightning came out of
the midst of the fire surrounded by clear sapphire where a man like person
on a throne sat in an electric eye. If electricity is anachronistic, the
word is none the less "chashmal" which is the modern Hebrew word for
electricity. The Septuagint has "electrum" and so does the Vulgate! What
ever "chashmal" and "electrum" meant to the ancients who used these words it
can only be said that "'eyn chashmal" in Hebrew and "opsin electrou" in
Greek and "speciem electri" found in Latin in Eze. 1:27 is not "amber" as in
the English translation. The word "color" does not appear in the text. There
are other descriptions of the elements of the "Shekinah" that Ezekiel saw
leaving a then desolate Temple. The building was still there but was
desolate before it was destroyed! 


The Departure and Return of the "Shekinah."


Ezekiel saw both the departure of the "Shekinah" and the return in two
separate visions separated in time by a number of years. The "Shekinah"
would later return to the Temple after the initiation of the building under
Zerubbabel but before the arrival of Ezra and Nehemiah. Ezekiel saw the
restored Temple in a vision while it actually lay desolate and Jerusalem and
Judea were all but uninhabited. Ezekiel's vision, of events that happened
after his own death, describes the same "skekinah," which he saw first in
chapter one, afterward leave the Temple in chapter ten. At the beginning of
chapter ten the "Shekinah" was still in the Temple: 

(Eze. 10:4) Then the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the
cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled
with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory
["Cavod YHWH"]. 


But preparations were made to take the "Shekinah" from the Temple and then
from the city itself.


(Eze. 10:19) And the cherubim lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the
earth in my sight; when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and
every one stood at the door of the east gate of the LORD's house; and the
glory of the God of Israel was over them above. 


Then the actual departure is recorded:


(Eze. 11:23) And the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] went up from the midst
of the city, and stood on the mountain which is on the east side of the
city. 

Ezekiel, still in a vision, returned to the captives in Babylon and reported
this event. He would later see in a vision the restored second Temple which
is recorded in chapters 40-43. In his vision of the Temple, as it would be
after it would have been rebuilt, Ezekiel saw the "Shekinah" return to the
Temple. Thus is that event recorded which he says was the same "Shekinah"
that left the Temple and would then be returned to a future restored Temple:


(Eze. 43:2) And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of
the east; and his voice was like a noise of many waters; and the earth
shined with his glory. (Eze. 43:3) And it was according to the appearance of
the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came
to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the
river Chebar; and I fell on my face. (Eze. 43:4) And the glory of the LORD
["Cavod YHWH"] came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is
toward the east. (Eze. 43:5) So the spirit took me up, and brought me into
the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD ["Cavod YHWH"] filled
the house. (Eze. 43:6) And I heard him speaking to me out of the house; and
the man stood by me. (Eze. 43:7) And he said to me, Son of man, the place of
my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell
[shakan] in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name,
shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by
their whoredom, nor by the carcasses of their kings in their high places. 

This event which Ezekiel saw in a vision was fulfilled. It happened in the
days of Zerubbabel and is recorded by Zechariah. The lives of Zechariah and
Ezekiel overlapped. They were both prophets and priests. Surely they knew of
each other and it is likely they met. Zechariah knew of the visions of the
departure of the "Shekinah" and the return and therefore he records the
predictions of the return that would fulfill the same future event which
Ezekiel saw. Thus God first foretells his "Shekinah" return. 

(Zec. 2:10) Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I
will dwell [shakan] in the midst of you, says the LORD. 

This verse is a prediction of the return of the "Shekinah" which was
imminent but had not happened yet when Zechariah wrote this in the second
year of Darius. In what follows he foretells the, future but imminent, long
period of continuity of the restored "Shekinah" called "that day," meaning
that the period of time beginning with the restoration of the "Shekinah"
would extend to the call of the Gentiles. 

(Zec. 2:11) And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and
shall be my people; and I will dwell ["shakan"] in the midst of you, and you
shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 

This verse also introduces references to a dual "Shekinah" return and
presence. One is to take place at the completion of the Temple and the other
to extend to the presence of the one who will actually be the "Shekinah,
whom YHWH will have sent to call the Gentiles. 

See also notes on Zecariah <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec2.htm#shek>
2:8-11. 


The Return of the "Shekinah" to the Restored Temple


>From the time that Zechariah began to prophesy in the second year of Darius
it would be approximately four years before the Temple would be finished and
dedicated. The building itself would be partially finished and complete
enough after two years of committed rebuilding that it would be called, in
chapter seven, "the house of God." It is in chapter eight that God speaks
and says that He has returned the "Shekinah." There is no record of the
actual event. Whether it was associated with physical phenomena is not told.
The only physical description is in the vision of Ezekiel which was not a
material event. Nonetheless the "Shekinah" and the real presence of the
omniscient God returned to the rededicated Temple on time, either at the
dedication or in anticipation as noted in Zec. 8:3
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec8.htm#8:3> . 

"Thus says the Lord; I am returned to Zion, and will dwell ["shakan"] in the
midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." 

(See notes in the text on these verses where the tenses of the verbs are
discussed. The reason for different translations of the tenses of the verbs
in several different versions which say that the "Shekinah" has returned or
shall return is discussed there)

Before the dedication of the Temple Darius the Persian, a non-Jewish
believer, sent letters, to the neighboring Syrians in response to their
attempts to stop the rebuilding then progressing under Zerubbabel, in which
he spoke of the "Shekinah" as present in Jerusalem. 

(Ezr. 6:12) And the God that has caused his name to dwell [shakan] there
destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to
destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem. I Darius have made a
decree; let it be done with speed. 

Here Darius attributes to God his decision to dwell or "shakan," as being
completed. Thus the return of his "Shekinah" presence in Jerusalem is
considered as a fact. This is before the dedication of the completed Temple
and was before or would nearly coincide with the time of Zec. 7:1
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec7.htm>  and Zec. 8:3.
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec8.htm#8:3>  


A generation later a new Persian king would send Ezra and mention the
"Shekinah."


(Ezr. 7:15) And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his
counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation
[Heb. mishkan] is in Jerusalem. 

This last comment is made by Artaxerxes Longimanus who commissioned Ezra and
who says the habitation ["Shekinah"] of God is in Jerusalem. These sources
are quoted by Porten, an active Jewish writer currently living in Jerusalem.
His position seems to favor the return of the "skekinah" before the actual
dedication. 

The Golden Age to come, which Zechariah said was to follow the return of the
"Shekinah," describes the city and surrounding areas being at peace in an
age where people can grow old in a secure environment. To those who lived in
Jerusalem, in the hearing of Zechariah, that would indeed be a marvel, so
great was the continuing desolation of the place. This continuing
desolation, after the return but before the rebuilding, was portrayed by
Daniel: 

(Dan. 9:12) And he has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us, and
against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for
under the whole heaven has not been done as has been done upon Jerusalem. 

But of the conditions which will follow the return of the "Shekinah"
Zechariah says: 

(Zec. 8:4) Thus says the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old
women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his
hand for very age. (Zec 8:5) And the streets of the city shall be full of
boys and girls playing in its streets. (Zec 8:6) Thus says the Lord of
hosts, If it be marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these
days, should it [not] also be marvelous in my eyes? says the Lord of hosts. 

The Golden Age is described in the chapter on the
<http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/zec1-5.htm#silent> "Silent Years" in this book
and in the verse by verse exposition of the text. Zechariah tells in his
prophecy that there will be times of trouble in the distant future after the
"Golden Age" and speaks of the presence of God who would then stand on Mt.
Olive. We know that that one who stood on Mt. Olive is the embodiment of the
mystery of the Godhead. "In him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells
bodily." 

Jesus of Nazareth, himself the embodiment of God, the manifestation of the
Almighty, lived in Israel while the "Shekinah" indwelt the Temple! He
prophesied the departure of the "Shekinah" which would make the Temple
desolate: 

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 

When he died on the cross and his spirit left the body there were
accompanying earthquakes, darkness, and that slippage between time and
eternity that one would expect at such extraordinary, inexplicable moments
when the finite and infinite meet. The dead bodies of many arose and walked
in the city as a result of his resurrection from the dead! But when he died,
at that very moment: 

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 

That the veil of the Temple was rent in two indicates the departure of the
"Shekinah" from the then desolate Temple. The Temple became desolate with
the departure of the "Shekinah," not at the time of its destruction. It was
made desolate by the departure of the presence of God. Daniel, when
prophesying of the destruction of the city and the Temple, says that the
destruction would be poured out on that which had already been made
desolate. Dan. <http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/Revised%20KJV/daniel.htm#9-27>
9:26,27. 

>From thenceforth the Temple would be manifested in two ways. Not in
buildings but in the hearts of spiritual Israel, the exiled ones called from
among the Gentiles to bring their treasures to Jerusalem. The assembled body
of believers also has the indwelling presence of which the "Shekinah" was a
representation in type. This same presence is in each obedient believer.
These dual aspects of the "Shekinah" were seen by Zechariah who completes
the Old Testament references to the "Shekinah" events. 

 

_______________________________________________
  _____  


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 294 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 1055 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment-0001.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 231 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment-0002.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 298 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment-0003.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1633 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment.jpe 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 379 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment-0004.gif 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/gif
Size: 334 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/0f215f42/attachment-0005.gif 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun May  4 15:01:48 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:01:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>
	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <2A1BC5CB-18B7-4102-9D18-411B8DFB77AF@earthlink.net>

I used the "number" mainly to draw attention, since we hear so much  
about the "2nd coming of the Messiah," but I was thinking, as one  
finds in the Prophets, of the experience of Israel at Sinai, Exodus I,  
with Exodus II projected to happen in the future. The language of  
Isaiah 64 is a good example, also Isa 66:15, Zechariah 14, etc. I  
think we have to allow so so-called "anthropomorphic" language, but  
that is not to remove the "actual" presence of YHVH in a way not seen/ 
experienced during what Isaiah calls the "Hiding of the Face."

Sorry to be so brief here,

James



On May 4, 2008, at 11:15 AM, Stephen & Sharon wrote:
> Dear James, and all,
>
> I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was  
> wondering why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps  
> back in the Garden?  The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form  
> is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding -  
> but maybe I have missed the point.
>
> Thanks for all the input,
> Sharon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Tabor
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where  
> YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember  
> those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from  
> Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR  
> (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of  
> Jacob.
>
> I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah"  
> idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both  
> Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow.  
> Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps  
> turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times  
> in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book,  
> Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out  
> soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main  
> One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but  
> ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
>
> Good week,
>
> James
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/c8e25c52/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Sun May  4 15:05:48 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:05:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>
	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>
	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net>

I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and  
otherwise, the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The  
last "sighting" was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the  
Eastern Gate and up over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert.  
This is precisely the "path" by which the Kavod is predicted to  
"return" (Isa 63). In ancient times it was associated with the Cloud/ 
Pillar phenomenon, not a physical "YHVH" walking around like a human  
being.

James


On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:

> Hi Patty!
>
>     Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple  
> being torn in two...,"  I have never, ever heard or read any other  
> source (Jewish, Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.   
> It seems that it would have been a significant an event to have been  
> recorded, don't you think?
>
>    Color me CURIOUS....
>
>  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> Hi Sharon,
>
> I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout  
> the history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during  
> the time of Yeshua:
>
> (Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and  
> stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered  
> your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her  
> wings, and you would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to  
> you desolate."
> (Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to  
> the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."
> Patty
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> Dear James, and all,
>
> I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was  
> wondering why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps  
> back in the Garden?  The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form  
> is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding -  
> but maybe I have missed the point.
>
> Thanks for all the input,
> Sharon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Tabor
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where  
> YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember  
> those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from  
> Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR  
> (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of  
> Jacob.
>
> I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah"  
> idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both  
> Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow.  
> Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps  
> turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times  
> in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book,  
> Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out  
> soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main  
> One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but  
> ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
>
> Good week,
>
> James
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/c4407235/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 15:14:32 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 20:14:32 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS266B3E0536E79F2992F7ABAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net><050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS266B3E0536E79F2992F7ABAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1415880760-1209932648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1668092650-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I was thinking this same thing Pat.  In fact I think it goes towards Hanoch's question regarding why Yeshua vs another blessed Rabbi.

I think the powers that be at the time made the colossal blunder of creating a martyr.  It resulted in a following of a Rabbi among an oppressed gentile population.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:30:15 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


More like bringing out the confetti and Manischewitz~!~~~~!?? This does makes sense, John!!! 
? 
Also, as an aside, am?thinking that if Yeshua was trying to regather the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, couldn't that have potentially toppled the entire Roman Empire? ?If the?Lost Ones?had started returning en masse to the Land, wouldn't their defection?have weakened?the Empire?in many?of its regions???It would be the same as?if they start returning in colossal numbers today, wouldn't that upset the balance of power in our world?? 
? 
For this reason, there is very great incentive from the enemies of G-d?to keep the whole thing on a spiritual level, not a physical one.? If people wake up and hear HaSHem's whistle, the nations will be depleted of many of their brightest and best, for?both Judah and Israel will Return!? ~Pat
 
 
 
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:44 PM 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 

 
 
Exactly James!? My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.? This is not a 'personal' intercessor.? It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid. 
? 
So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.? This distinction makes perfect sense to me. 
? 
But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.? The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.? The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!? It is compounded when the importance of?Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself. 
? 
SO,?it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh. 
? 
There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches! 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer.?Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
 

 
I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. ?I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 

 
Good week, 

 
James 

 

 
On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  wrote:
 
 
 
I had an interesting thought today.? Was there when I woke up this morning.? It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this; 
? 
There is really a heirarchy of three important questions, 
? 
1.)? Why must there be a Messiah?? More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King). 
2.)? What is Messiah?supposed to accomplish?(this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)? 
3.)? Who is (will be)?Messiah. 
? 
The thought that follows is new to me.? 
? 
It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.? I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.? The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.? The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.? So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.? And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research). 
? 
That's all I got right now.? Comments? 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com <mailto:YoungBarzel at aol.com> : -------------- 

 
Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
? 
????I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.? Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").? 
? 
????PLEASE NOTE:? These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').? Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...? I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.? It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
? 
????Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
? 
What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would? 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
? 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
? 
6)?To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who?disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 

????The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
 
????????Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
? 
????????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
?????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
???? 
????



 
 
----------------
 Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> ._______________________________________________

 
 
----------------
 
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________


From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 16:05:23 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
	<A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>

Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further,

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise,
the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting"
was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up
over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the
"path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient
times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical
"YHVH" walking around like a human being. 

 

James

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:





Hi Patty!

    Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn
in two...,"  I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish,
Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.  It seems that it would
have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think?  

   Color me CURIOUS....

 Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

Hi Sharon,

 

I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the
history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of
Yeshua:

 

(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate."

(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Dear James, and all,

 

I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering
why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?
The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to
me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.

 

Thanks for all the input,

Sharon

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org

Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 


 

_______________________________________________
  _____  


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site.

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/e4a7f043/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 16:14:49 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:14:49 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com><A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net><054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
Message-ID: <1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Patty,

Shavua Tov.

So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy).  I need to know how we wan't to proceed.

Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days ago.  Did you get it?

Shavua Tov to you too.

P.s.  I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when on a mission (sorry Hanoch).  So just tell me to back off if you need to.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further, 
? 
Patty 
? 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise, the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting" was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the "path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical "YHVH" walking around like a human being.? 
 
? 
 
James 
 
? 
 
? 
 
On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

 
 
 
Hi Patty!
 
 ??? Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn in two...,"? I have never,?ever?heard or read any other source (Jewish, Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.? It seems that it would have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think???
 
 ?? Color me CURIOUS....
 
 ?Hanoch??the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> >
 To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
 
Hi Sharon, 
 
? 
 
I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of Yeshua: 
 
? 
 
(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 
 
(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 
 
Patty 
 
? 
 
 
 
From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?Stephen & Sharon
 Sent:?Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
 To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
? 
 
 
Dear James, and all, 
 
 
? 
 
 
I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering why "2nd".?? What/when was the 1st??? Was that perhaps back in the Garden?? The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding?- but maybe I have missed the point. 
 
 
? 
 
 
Thanks for all the input, 
 
 
Sharon 
 
 
? 
 
 
? 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
 
 
From:?James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> 
 
 
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
 
 
Sent:?Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM 
 
 
Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
? 
 
One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer.?Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
 
 
 
? 
 
 
I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. ?I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 
 
 
? 
 
 
Good week, 
 
 
? 
 
 
James 
 
 
? 
 
 

 ? 
_______________________________________________ 
 
 
----------------
 
Plan your next roadtrip with?MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
_______________________________________________ 
? _______________________________________________


From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 16:25:55 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 16:25:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90
	seconds
Message-ID: <03a601c8ae2d$70201050$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thought this was interesting in view of the two important days coming up
regarding Eretz Yisrael and all those who love her.Yom HaZikaron and
Ha'azmu'ut!  (Israel's Memorial Day and Israel's Independence Day!



  

Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90 seconds

Tress interessant

This is an amazing, constantly changing map of the Middle East region,
illustrating how various "empires" have risen and fallen in the past 3000
years--in just 90 seconds.

Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90 seconds

 <http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf>
http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf



 

 








 

 

 

 

 

=





 

 

  _____  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/de974f57/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Sun May  4 17:05:46 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:05:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Communication Breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com><A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net><054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
	<1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <056701c8ae33$0319b280$094d1780$@com>

Hey John, Dave isn't subbed to this group. We have had company this weekend.
But want to get right on this. And don't worry - no one is a bigger pain
than me!!

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:15 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

Hey Patty,

Shavua Tov.

So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the
only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy).  I need to know
how we wan't to proceed.

Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days
ago.  Did you get it?

Shavua Tov to you too.

P.s.  I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when on
a mission (sorry Hanoch).  So just tell me to back off if you need to.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further, 
? 
Patty 
? 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise,
the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting"
was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up
over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the
"path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient
times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical
"YHVH" walking around like a human being.? 
 
? 
 
James 
 
? 
 
? 
 
On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

 
 
 
Hi Patty!
 
 ??? Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being
torn in two...,"? I have never,?ever?heard or read any other source (Jewish,
Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.? It seems that it would
have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think???
 
 ?? Color me CURIOUS....
 
 ?Hanoch??the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> >
 To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
 
Hi Sharon, 
 
? 
 
I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the
history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of
Yeshua: 
 
? 
 
(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 
 
(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 
 
Patty 
 
? 
 
 
 
From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffait
h.org]?On Behalf Of?Stephen & Sharon
 Sent:?Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
 To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
? 
 
 
Dear James, and all, 
 
 
? 
 
 
I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering
why "2nd".?? What/when was the 1st??? Was that perhaps back in the Garden??
The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to
me at this stage of my understanding?- but maybe I have missed the point. 
 
 
? 
 
 
Thanks for all the input, 
 
 
Sharon 
 
 
? 
 
 
? 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
 
 
From:?James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> 
 
 
To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
 
 
Sent:?Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM 
 
 
Subject:?Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
? 
 
One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer.?Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
 
 
 
? 
 
 
I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. ?I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 
 
 
? 
 
 
Good week, 
 
 
? 
 
 
James 
 
 
? 
 
 

 ? 
_______________________________________________ 
 
 
----------------
 
Plan your next roadtrip with?MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
_______________________________________________ 
? _______________________________________________





From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Sun May  4 17:19:11 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Communication Breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <056701c8ae33$0319b280$094d1780$@com>
Message-ID: <868053.86809.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/74356bfe/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Sun May  4 17:19:22 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:19:22 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com><A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net><054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
	<1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <D979F1A3140A48839C478D130AB3EC09@sherryPC>

Hey John,
    You can count me in on the album project .
Sherry
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


> Hey Patty,
>
> Shavua Tov.
>
> So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the 
> only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy).  I need to know 
> how we wan't to proceed.
>
> Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days 
> ago.  Did you get it?
>
> Shavua Tov to you too.
>
> P.s.  I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when 
> on a mission (sorry Hanoch).  So just tell me to back off if you need to.
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
>
> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23
> To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
> Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further,
>
> Patty
>
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise, 
> the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting" 
> was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up 
> over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the 
> "path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient 
> times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical 
> "YHVH" walking around like a human being.
>
>
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Patty!
>
>  Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn 
> in two...," I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish, 
> Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring. It seems that it would 
> have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think?
>
>  Color me CURIOUS....
>
>  Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> >
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
>
> Hi Sharon,
>
>
>
> I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the 
> history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of 
> Yeshua:
>
>
>
> (Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone 
> them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children 
> together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you 
> would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate."
>
> (Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the 
> bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."
>
> Patty
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
>
>
> Dear James, and all,
>
>
>
>
>
> I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering 
> why "2nd". What/when was the 1st? Was that perhaps back in the Garden? The 
> concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me 
> at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for all the input,
>
>
> Sharon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
>
> From: James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>
>
>
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
>
>
> One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH 
> himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those 
> declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: 
> That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not 
> Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, 
> especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and 
> Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about 
> the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd 
> Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. I cover this 
> rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of 
> which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who 
> assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that 
> sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
>
>
>
>
>
> Good week,
>
>
>
>
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ----------------
>
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 
11:22 AM



From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 17:41:03 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:41:03 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in
	90seconds
In-Reply-To: <03a601c8ae2d$70201050$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <03a601c8ae2d$70201050$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4E4B0E8C60DFBA11FF810BAD40@phx.gbl>

This is great, Betty!!!!  Thank you!!!  ~ Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:25 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] FW: Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90seconds


Thought this was interesting in view of the two important days coming up regarding Eretz Yisrael and all those who love her.Yom HaZikaron and Ha'azmu'ut!  (Israel's Memorial Day and Israel's Independence Day!

              

            Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90 seconds

            Tress interessant

            This is an amazing, constantly changing map of the Middle East region, illustrating how various "empires" have risen and fallen in the past 3000 years--in just 90 seconds.

            Animated Map of Middle East - 3000 years in 90 seconds

            http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf
           
                   
                  
                 

           





     
             
            
           

     

 

 

 

=





 

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/7ac3e9d6/attachment.html 

From long777 at att.net  Sun May  4 18:04:47 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:04:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <5435297-1209910234-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1612084903-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><00b001c8adea$04685cc0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>
	<5435297-1209910234-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1612084903-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <00ae01c8ae3b$4096fe80$4001a8c0@Rainbow>

Sorry about that. As for selecting "digest" you need to go into your
dialogue options page and scroll down and you will see the option to turn
digest on or off. I am heading there now as I have received 80+ emails since
yesterday...lol ..very active group, which is a good thing. See you all
tonight at Sunday Shul!

Jeremy 


www.kolhator.org.il  
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel
 
                                         

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:03 AM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

Thanks Jeremy,

My question was a little more technical I guess.  I don't see any button
that let's me select 'digest'.  How do I actually select it.

Glad it helps you.  We are glad to have you with us.

Shalom.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeremy" <long777 at att.net>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 08:23:16
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Email Digest


Shalom, 
? 
The digest option has a plus side and a negative side. The plus is that you
only receive one or two emails a day with all conversations as part of them.
the downside is that if you are using it you are sometimes a bit late in
response to specific topics. Once you have selected that option. It tends to
benefit me as I am late responding usually anyway. For some of you that love
to keep up to date with all your email throughout the day it is probably not
the best option. Not really much else to tell, you can receive emails one at
a time as they are written or you can receive them once a day in "digest"
mode. 
? 
Thank you for turning it on, it will help me. I really like this list. I am
on a couple others but a lot of time we never really delve into heavy topics
as they are seen as controversial so the moderators shy away. At least here
there is actual "dialogue". The nature of messiah thread has been great.
Thank You all. 
? 
Jeremy 
? 
www.kolhator.org.il <http://www.kolhator.org.il/> ?? 
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel 
? 
????????????????????????????????????????? 
?
 
 
----------------
 From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

 
 
 
Hey Jeremy, 
? 
Ross and Brian turned on the digest option.? Can you give us all some
coaching on how to use it? 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>:
-------------- 

 
 
I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual
emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not
realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at
least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
? 
Jeremy_______________________________________________




From long777 at att.net  Sun May  4 18:18:29 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:18:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Email Digest
In-Reply-To: <5435297-1209910234-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1612084903-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <654846.1405.qm@web83825.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><050420080407.3041.481D366A0003B2A100000BE122230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><00b001c8adea$04685cc0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>
	<5435297-1209910234-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1612084903-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <00af01c8ae3d$2a772ab0$4001a8c0@Rainbow>

I tell you its in your account options and then I try and try to figure out
how to access my account options and can not figure it out. Any help would
be great...thanks in advance

Jeremy
 


www.kolhator.org.il  
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel
 
                                         

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:03 AM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

Thanks Jeremy,

My question was a little more technical I guess.  I don't see any button
that let's me select 'digest'.  How do I actually select it.

Glad it helps you.  We are glad to have you with us.

Shalom.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jeremy" <long777 at att.net>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 08:23:16
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Email Digest


Shalom, 
? 
The digest option has a plus side and a negative side. The plus is that you
only receive one or two emails a day with all conversations as part of them.
the downside is that if you are using it you are sometimes a bit late in
response to specific topics. Once you have selected that option. It tends to
benefit me as I am late responding usually anyway. For some of you that love
to keep up to date with all your email throughout the day it is probably not
the best option. Not really much else to tell, you can receive emails one at
a time as they are written or you can receive them once a day in "digest"
mode. 
? 
Thank you for turning it on, it will help me. I really like this list. I am
on a couple others but a lot of time we never really delve into heavy topics
as they are seen as controversial so the moderators shy away. At least here
there is actual "dialogue". The nature of messiah thread has been great.
Thank You all. 
? 
Jeremy 
? 
www.kolhator.org.il <http://www.kolhator.org.il/> ?? 
Support the Restoration of the Whole House of Israel 
? 
????????????????????????????????????????? 
?
 
 
----------------
 From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:07 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Email Digest

 
 
 
Hey Jeremy, 
? 
Ross and Brian turned on the digest option.? Can you give us all some
coaching on how to use it? 
? 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
? -------------- Original message from Jeremy Long <long777 at att.net>:
-------------- 

 
 
I was curious as to why we cannot get the daily digest instead of individual
emails. It would make things easier to handle for some (like me). I did not
realize I would be recieving so many eamils. The last 3 days I have see at
least 150. This is waaaayyyy to many for me to keep up with. Help Please! 
? 
Jeremy_______________________________________________




From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 18:26:14 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:26:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <D979F1A3140A48839C478D130AB3EC09@sherryPC>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com><A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net><054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
	<1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<D979F1A3140A48839C478D130AB3EC09@sherryPC>
Message-ID: <050420082326.5098.481E46150009DABF000013EA22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Thanks Sherry.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "sherry cole" <shcole1 at cox.net>: -------------- 


> Hey John, 
> You can count me in on the album project . 
> Sherry 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: 
> To: "Dialogue" 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:14 PM 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> 
> > Hey Patty, 
> > 
> > Shavua Tov. 
> > 
> > So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the 
> > only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy). I need to know 
> > how we wan't to proceed. 
> > 
> > Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days 
> > ago. Did you get it? 
> > 
> > Shavua Tov to you too. 
> > 
> > P.s. I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when 
> > on a mission (sorry Hanoch). So just tell me to back off if you need to. 
> > 
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: "Patty " 
> > 
> > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 
> > To: 
> > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further, 
> > 
> > Patty 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM 
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> > 
> > I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise, 
> > the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting" 
> > was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up 
> > over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the 
> > "path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient 
> > times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical 
> > "YHVH" walking around like a human being. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > James 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Patty! 
> > 
> > Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn 
> > in two...," I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish, 
> > Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring. It seems that it would 
> > have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think? 
> > 
> > Color me CURIOUS.... 
> > 
> > Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Patty > 
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> > Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am 
> > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Sharon, 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the 
> > history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of 
> > Yeshua: 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > (Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone 
> > them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children 
> > together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you 
> > would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 
> > 
> > (Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the 
> > bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 
> > 
> > Patty 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM 
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear James, and all, 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering 
> > why "2nd". What/when was the 1st? Was that perhaps back in the Garden? The 
> > concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me 
> > at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks for all the input, 
> > 
> > 
> > Sharon 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > 
> > 
> > From: James Tabor 
> > 
> > 
> > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> > 
> > 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM 
> > 
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH 
> > himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those 
> > declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: 
> > That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not 
> > Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, 
> > especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and 
> > Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about 
> > the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd 
> > Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. I cover this 
> > rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of 
> > which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who 
> > assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that 
> > sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Good week, 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > James 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------- 
> > 
> > Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message. 
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008 
> 11:22 AM 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/420e428e/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 18:30:47 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:30:47 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Communication Breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <868053.86809.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <056701c8ae33$0319b280$094d1780$@com>
	<868053.86809.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050420082330.14952.481E47260007429B00003A6822230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Tracy,

Well, I guess we're still trying to figure out how to go about making it right now.  I'm not much into the legal/marketing aspect of things.  I suppose we'll leave that up to Dave T. and Patty but as far as I'm concerned if we do market it I'm not interested in any personal profit.  Whatever it creates can be used for a good cause of our choosing.  That's my two cents.

I don't believe we'll get much more done than planning this month.  You in?

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

Hey Patty,

Did you get my last message: 

Hey Fellow Laborers,

I'm already working on a personal project this month. I guess I need to gather a little more info. Do ya'll have any ideas, plans, and/or details as to what will be done with the Album? Will it be sold or given away or what?

Tracy


--- On Sun, 5/4/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] Communication Breakdown?
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2008, 5:05 PM


Hey John, Dave isn't subbed to this group. We have had company this weekend.
But want to get right on this. And don't worry - no one is a bigger pain
than me!!

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:15 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

Hey Patty,

Shavua Tov.

So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the
only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy).  I need to know
how we wan't to proceed.

Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days
ago.  Did you get it?

Shavua Tov to you too.

P.s.  I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when on
a mission (sorry Hanoch).  So just tell me to back off if you need to.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further, 
  
Patty 
  
  
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  
I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise,
the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last
"sighting"
was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and
up
over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the
"path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa
63). In ancient
times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical
"YHVH" walking around like a human being.  
 
  
 
James 
 
  
 
  
 
On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 

 
 
 
Hi Patty!
 
     Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple
being
torn in two...,"  I have never, ever heard or read any other source
(Jewish,
Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.  It seems that it would
have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you
think?  
 
    Color me CURIOUS....
 
  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> >
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
 
Hi Sharon, 
 
  
 
I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the
history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of
Yeshua: 
 
  
 
(Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone
them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children
together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would
not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 
 
(Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the
bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 
 
Patty 
 
  
 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffait
h.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
 Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
  
 
 
Dear James, and all, 
 
 
  
 
 
I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was
wondering
why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in
the Garden? 
The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to
me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point. 
 
 
  
 
 
Thanks for all the input, 
 
 
Sharon 
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
 
 
From: James Tabor <mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net> 
 
 
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
 
 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM 
 
 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
 
  
 
One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
 
 
 
  
 
 
I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah"
idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming
of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who
assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 
 
 
  
 
 
Good week, 
 
 
  
 
 
James 
 
 
  
 
 

   
_______________________________________________ 
 
 
----------------
 
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
_______________________________________________ 
  _______________________________________________



_______________________________________________




Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/857fa7d1/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 18:35:08 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 23:35:08 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Communication Breakdown?
In-Reply-To: <056701c8ae33$0319b280$094d1780$@com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox>	<048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com><A6187F4B-8A20-4970-87EB-AF39A7410DD9@earthlink.net><054601c8ae2a$941babc0$bc530340$@com>
	<1198156621-1209936133-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-169558697-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<056701c8ae33$0319b280$094d1780$@com>
Message-ID: <050420082335.23401.481E482B00033C0800005B6922230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Okay,

I'm gonna resend the two emails Glenn and I sent to him earlier with the song/format info.  I'll use the email address he sent me.  I'll cc you.

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>: -------------- 


> Hey John, Dave isn't subbed to this group. We have had company this weekend. 
> But want to get right on this. And don't worry - no one is a bigger pain 
> than me!! 
> 
> Patty 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of 
> carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:15 PM 
> To: Dialogue 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> Hey Patty, 
> 
> Shavua Tov. 
> 
> So it looks like we have a concensus to move forward with the album (the 
> only ones I have't heard from on it are Sherry and Tracy). I need to know 
> how we wan't to proceed. 
> 
> Dave T, I sent you some info on songs and format (as did Glenn) a few days 
> ago. Did you get it? 
> 
> Shavua Tov to you too. 
> 
> P.s. I'm originally from NYC therefore I can be a pain in the rear when on 
> a mission (sorry Hanoch). So just tell me to back off if you need to. 
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: "Patty " 
> 
> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:05:23 
> To: 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I think you are correct, I will study this further, 
>   
> Patty 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:06 PM 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
>   
> I think I have to agree here. In all the sources, biblical and otherwise, 
> the 2nd Temple was without the Chavod (aka Shekinah). The last "sighting" 
> was by Ezekiel in chapter 10, when "it" went out the Eastern Gate and up 
> over the Mt of Olives, then out into the desert. This is precisely the 
> "path" by which the Kavod is predicted to "return" (Isa 63). In ancient 
> times it was associated with the Cloud/Pillar phenomenon, not a physical 
> "YHVH" walking around like a human being.  
> 
>   
> 
> James 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> On May 4, 2008, at 12:01 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Patty! 
> 
>     Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being 
> torn in two...,"  I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish, 
> Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.  It seems that it would 
> have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think?   
> 
>    Color me CURIOUS.... 
> 
>  Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Patty > 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am 
> Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sharon, 
> 
>   
> 
> I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the 
> history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of 
> Yeshua: 
> 
>   
> 
> (Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone 
> them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children 
> together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would 
> not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 
> 
> (Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the 
> bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent." 
> 
> Patty 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffait 
> h.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> Dear James, and all, 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering 
> why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?  
> The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to 
> me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the input, 
> 
> 
> Sharon 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> 
> 
> From: James Tabor 
> 
> 
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
> 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH 
> himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those 
> declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: 
> That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not 
> Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, 
> especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and 
> Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the 
> coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of 
> YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather 
> extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which 
> should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the 
> Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but 
> ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel. 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> Good week, 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> James 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   
> _______________________________________________ 
> 
> 
> ---------------- 
> 
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
> _______________________________________________ 
>   _______________________________________________ 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/c29294a8/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 18:43:45 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 18:43:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Shalom all! 

 

I have really "missed" being a part of the dialogue these past few days; and
I mean it both ways.missed it spiritually and "missed" out of reading so
much of what everyone has written.  With over 400 emails to go thru, I
realize that I cannot get to them all, so I am just "jumping in" here.
Please forgive me if my comments have already been stated by others.

 

In my opinion, John hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph here when
he said, 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity
(the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by
both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

I really think the pitchforks and torches will not be needed, not within
this group, anyway!  Just from a cursory reading of some of the emails, my
feeling is that each and every one of you who have contributed have done it
with the utmost respect for the other.  The Messiah issue is probably one of
the hottest topics around and has 'pushed many a button' down thru the
centuries, yet here we are discussing it honestly and openly.

 

My own simplistic feelings on the matter are that we have, down thru the
centuries allowed the 'Messiah' issues to have far too much emphasis, and,
as John said.that that very fact continues to separate Jews and Christians.


 

The Torah and Tanakh do not have their emphasis on the 'Messiah,' but rather
on HaShem, as the Savior and Redeemer, whereas the New Testament writings
seem to focus on the 'Messiah.' I am not saying nor even thinking that we
need to throw out everything that we hold dear and everything that we have
been taught (G-d forbid!)  I do however, firmly believe that we need to look
at everything in the light of Torah. And sometimes the resulting process can
be very painful.

 

That said, I am very grateful for my Christian heritage.  Even though there
were many untruths that I had to distance myself from, my love and gratitude
and respect of Jesus/Yeshua will never be diminished; for I look to him as
being the one primary force that brought me to HaShem and to a discovery of
Torah.  I believe that I am among those 'lost sheep of the House of Israel'
that he so lovingly spoke of gathering. 

 

However, I can in no way look to him as my Savior or my Redeemer (Isaiah
59:16-20).only G-d can hold that position; and I believe that if we could
ask Yeshua himself, he would not want our worship and praise for either of
those roles. 

 

Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got
some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet'
and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just
that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me
peace.

 

I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior
and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and
source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine
upon us, each and every one!

 

Shavua tov and blessings to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor
and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting
them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal'
intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I
am trying to avoid.

 

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor
for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to
me.

 

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of
the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is
Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of
Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.
The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!
It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood
not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity
(the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by
both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from James Tabor
<jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.
It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like
this;

 

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

 

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an
intercessor (King).

2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the
question of why Messiah would need to die)?

3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

 

The thought that follows is new to me.  

 

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in
terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor
became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that
G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with
Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective
that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research
more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh)
perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national"
figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an
individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure
for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian
doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine
was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation
(m ore research).

 

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




Boker tov L'Kulchem,

 

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as
it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always
defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com
and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to
rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

 

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of
the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, '
BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult
anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of
the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.
It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am
coming from....

 

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

 

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all
hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah
2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

 

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the
Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the
Davidic Dynasty).

 

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are
some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human
form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being
above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews
believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His
creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

 

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

    

    






  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .

_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/b6bca0e2/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 20:52:49 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:52:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>

Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/8744fdb9/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 20:54:58 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 20:54:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -  ...help...help... 
In-Reply-To: <EB7BAFAEA9134F88B6B74BF473104DA0@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <001601c8ae53$061299a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Jessica,

 

My heart was moved when I read your post and read about Rabbi Nati's
persecution and harassment.  May HaShem offer him protection!  I will begin
praying for him specifically when I pray for all Israel, and their
counselors, scholars, elders (which includes rabbis).that HaShem will hear
our cries and that His compassion be aroused.and that Jerusalem be restored
as His resting place!

 

Thank you for letting us know.

 

Shavua tov blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 

 

Shalom Hanoch,

I only know Rabbi Nati from the Mystical Paths website. Here is a little
about him from his blog.

He is a genuine Rabbi and student of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. His
associate, Rabbi Akiva has confirmed the posting as genuine. He works mostly
in the background and technical side of operating the website. 

However, this is Rabbi Nati in action:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54B7e2r5v7g>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54B7e2r5v7g

Please visit the website at:  <http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/>
http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/  I would be very interested in your
thoughts.

I hope that helps,

Jessica

 


Reb. Nati


*	Gender: Male
*	Industry: Religion
<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=j&ind=RELIGION> 
*	Location: Yishuv
<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL&loc1=Shomron&loc2=Yishuv+
Eli>  Eli : Shomron
<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL&loc1=Shomron>  : Israel
<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL> 


About Me


Former United States Marine turn breslov Chassid. "Up in the morning before
rising sun come on boys we got to get those tfilos done." Uman!!!

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help... 

 

Shalom Jessica,

 

    Shavua tov, and a boker tov (Sunday!), too!  Who is Rabbi Nati?  I'm not
familiar with him, although what he's describing (harassment, interrogation,
intimidation, etc) have happened to many, many of my friends.   My teacher,
Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May HaShem avenge his blood) used to say
that the "'real' war in Israel was against the Hellenists."  I don't doubt
that this is part of it...

 

    May HaShem have mercy on ALL HIS people, and bring the Geula - the final
redemption, NOW....

 

    Very best regards,

           Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah






  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/e4d14eea/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Sun May  4 21:00:40 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:00:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6F5B56E17629C59CB6E19BAD70@phx.gbl>

So true, Betty!  WHY was the emphasis switched from HaSHem in the Tenach, to Messiah in the N.T.?  That's a very serious detour!  ~ Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Shalom all! 

 

I have really "missed" being a part of the dialogue these past few days; and I mean it both ways.missed it spiritually and "missed" out of reading so much of what everyone has written.  With over 400 emails to go thru, I realize that I cannot get to them all, so I am just "jumping in" here.  Please forgive me if my comments have already been stated by others.

 

In my opinion, John hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph here when he said, 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

I really think the pitchforks and torches will not be needed, not within this group, anyway!  Just from a cursory reading of some of the emails, my feeling is that each and every one of you who have contributed have done it with the utmost respect for the other.  The Messiah issue is probably one of the hottest topics around and has 'pushed many a button' down thru the centuries, yet here we are discussing it honestly and openly.

 

My own simplistic feelings on the matter are that we have, down thru the centuries allowed the 'Messiah' issues to have far too much emphasis, and, as John said.that that very fact continues to separate Jews and Christians.  

 

The Torah and Tanakh do not have their emphasis on the 'Messiah,' but rather on HaShem, as the Savior and Redeemer, whereas the New Testament writings seem to focus on the 'Messiah.' I am not saying nor even thinking that we need to throw out everything that we hold dear and everything that we have been taught (G-d forbid!)  I do however, firmly believe that we need to look at everything in the light of Torah. And sometimes the resulting process can be very painful.

 

That said, I am very grateful for my Christian heritage.  Even though there were many untruths that I had to distance myself from, my love and gratitude and respect of Jesus/Yeshua will never be diminished; for I look to him as being the one primary force that brought me to HaShem and to a discovery of Torah.  I believe that I am among those 'lost sheep of the House of Israel' that he so lovingly spoke of gathering. 

 

However, I can in no way look to him as my Savior or my Redeemer (Isaiah 59:16-20).only G-d can hold that position; and I believe that if we could ask Yeshua himself, he would not want our worship and praise for either of those roles. 

 

Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet' and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me peace.

 

I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine upon us, each and every one!

 

Shavua tov and blessings to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.

 

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.

 

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

  -------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

  One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

   

  I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

   

  Good week,

   

  James

   

   

  On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



  I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

   

  There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

   

  1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).

  2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?

  3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

   

  The thought that follows is new to me.  

   

  It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

   

  That's all I got right now.  Comments?

   

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 

   

    -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




    Boker tov L'Kulchem,

     

        I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

     

        PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

     

        Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

     

    What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

    1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

    2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

    3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

    4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

     

    5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

     

    6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


        The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

            Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

     

            B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                     Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
    Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

        

        






----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  _______________________________________________

   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/5e04d5b1/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 21:14:01 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:14:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002701c8ae55$af59a4c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Hanoch,

 

I have some knowledge of the Mormon faith since one of my daughters (not
Kim, obviously!) converted.  It is my understanding that the Mormons have
the belief that they are of the lost tribes of the House of Israel and are
of the stick of Joseph.  Although they believe that Salt Lake City will be
where the "new heavens and new earth" will descend (instead of Jerusalem in
the mainstream Christian view), they do have an interest in the Jews and
actually have a very large Mormon temple in Jerusalem.

 

Although my daughter has asked me several times to read it and see it I got
the "burning of the heart," (or something like that), I have never been able
to really get into it.  

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, that's what I know.  I am sure those smiling
LDS guys would love to give you one and teach you too!  Seriously, I have
met a number of them thru my daughter.  They are such good people, just
misguided.  In fact, she insisted that they help us move into our house.  It
was quite interesting because we already had all the mezuzzot placed on the
front and back door and the doorways of our house, and they all wanted to
know what the little "boxes" were.  They were fascinated when I told them,
and nodded in agreement.keep in mind, this was between carrying boxes and
furniture, so there was not much time for in depth conversation, but I was
only too happy to explain.

 

Shavua tov!

 

Betty/Elisheva 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman

 

Shavua tov L'Kulchem,

 

    Right before Shabbat I got a note from a friend of mine asking for my
take on a verse in the Book of Morman.   Since I don't have one of those
("Sorry, I just have 9 different New Testaments, no Book of Morman..."),
could someone tell me what they think of the following:

 

 look up 2 Nephi 2 (in some versions it is 2 Nephi 3) where Lehi speaks to
his last born son, Joseph.  Note especially the verses pertaining to fruit
of the loins of Joseph and Judah together WRITING to the "confounding of
doctrines, laying down of contentions, and establishing peace between "the
fruit of thy loins" and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in
the Last Days ..."

 

    I will try to pick up a copy of the Book of Morman soon, maybe from one
of those smiling LDS guys, who want to 'save' my Jewish soul.....but in the
meantime, can anyone shed some light on this, and I'll pass it along?

 

    Toda!

             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/d980a68b/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun May  4 21:14:38 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:14:38 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
Message-ID: <cb2.2f607a3a.354fc78e@aol.com>

 
Shalom L'Kulchem,
 
    I've mentioned this book before -  How Jesus Became Christian by 
Professor Barrie Wilson, and I know that  James has mentioned that he wants to write a 
review of it....but I felt I had to  mention it again.  There a number of 
people who have asked a number of very  valid questions in recent discussions 
about the role of a Messiah, and how the  NT matches up, or strays, from the 
Tanach.  
 
    I would STRONGLY urge anyone with an  open, inquiring mind to read this 
book....I've included the Publisher's  Weekly piece on it...if anyone wants 
more details, please give me a  shout.  But this is a MUST READ.
                Hanoch  the Lil Lion of  Judah
 
Editorial Reviews
>From Publishers Weekly
Of the making of  Jesus books there appears to be no end. Although Wilson, 
professor of religious  studies at Toronto's York University, treads familiar 
ground already covered by  Geza Vermes in Jesus the Jew and Amy-Jill Levine in 
The Misunderstood  Jew, he provokes new thoughts about Jesus' identity. Taking 
up where Robert  Eisenman left off in James, the Brother of Jesus, Wilson 
calls his  argument the Jesus Cover-Up Thesis and claims that the religion of Paul 
 displaced the teachings of Jesus so that Paul's preaching about a divine 
gentile  Christ covered up the human Jewish Jesus. Wilson helpfully surveys the  
political, social and religious contexts of ancient Palestine, demonstrating  
that the religion of James, the brother of Jesus, was much closer to the  
religious practice of Jesus himself, but that the followers of Paul suppressed  
Jesus' teachings in favor of their own leader. Wilson challenges the veracity of 
 the book of Acts, arguing that the followers of Paul created these tales to  
support the heroic character of their founder in his quest to establish a new 
 religion. Wilson's instructive book introduces important questions about 
early  Christianity for those unfamiliar with the debates about the historical 
Jesus.  (Mar.) 
Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed  Elsevier Inc. All 
rights reserved. --This text refers to the _Hardcover_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312362781/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155)  edition.  







**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/912ac505/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Sun May  4 21:17:03 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:17:03 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
Message-ID: <d20.2a34a15c.354fc81f@aol.com>

Thanks Betty!  Yeah, to them, I'm a Gentile, I always  found that moderately 
amusing....   :-)
 
    Hanoch  the Lil Lion of  Judah  





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/6da6f249/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 21:26:42 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:26:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <d20.2a34a15c.354fc81f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005501c8ae57$752ed390$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Hmmm.I was not aware of that one.I guess my daughter did not tell me
everything!  Very interesting, thanks.  Years ago, she and I had to come to
an agreement that we would not discuss our faith, other than the positive
things G-d is doing in our lives, praying for one another, etc., because
those early discussion put a huge wall between us.on her part, anyway.as it
was me that was asking the questions.  She ended up feeling like she was on
the defensive and said she just could never discuss it ever again.  So that
is the way it has been. 

 

Anyway, thanks for the info,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman

 

Thanks Betty!  Yeah, to them, I'm a Gentile, I always found that moderately
amusing....   :-)

 

    Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 

 





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/35359440/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Sun May  4 22:19:07 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:19:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS6F5B56E17629C59CB6E19BAD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <007f01c8ae5e$c7d568f0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Yes, Pat, it is, and it certainly caught my attention!  I have some ideas,
but that is all they are. 

 

 I am certainly not the first one who has made the observation about
upholding the "messenger" and making him the emphasis rather than the
"message," that he brought; and that, from my perspective, is where the
unraveling began.

 

Hope to be on line again tomorrow.busy day ahead!

 

Laila tov on this the second day of Sabbath and 16th night of the omer!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

So true, Betty!  WHY was the emphasis switched from HaSHem in the Tenach, to
Messiah in the N.T.?  That's a very serious detour!  ~ Pat

 

From: Betty Givin <mailto:bkgivin at charter.net>  

Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:43 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Shalom all! 

 

I have really "missed" being a part of the dialogue these past few days; and
I mean it both ways.missed it spiritually and "missed" out of reading so
much of what everyone has written.  With over 400 emails to go thru, I
realize that I cannot get to them all, so I am just "jumping in" here.
Please forgive me if my comments have already been stated by others.

 

In my opinion, John hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph here when
he said, 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity
(the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by
both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

I really think the pitchforks and torches will not be needed, not within
this group, anyway!  Just from a cursory reading of some of the emails, my
feeling is that each and every one of you who have contributed have done it
with the utmost respect for the other.  The Messiah issue is probably one of
the hottest topics around and has 'pushed many a button' down thru the
centuries, yet here we are discussing it honestly and openly.

 

My own simplistic feelings on the matter are that we have, down thru the
centuries allowed the 'Messiah' issues to have far too much emphasis, and,
as John said.that that very fact continues to separate Jews and Christians.


 

The Torah and Tanakh do not have their emphasis on the 'Messiah,' but rather
on HaShem, as the Savior and Redeemer, whereas the New Testament writings
seem to focus on the 'Messiah.' I am not saying nor even thinking that we
need to throw out everything that we hold dear and everything that we have
been taught (G-d forbid!)  I do however, firmly believe that we need to look
at everything in the light of Torah. And sometimes the resulting process can
be very painful.

 

That said, I am very grateful for my Christian heritage.  Even though there
were many untruths that I had to distance myself from, my love and gratitude
and respect of Jesus/Yeshua will never be diminished; for I look to him as
being the one primary force that brought me to HaShem and to a discovery of
Torah.  I believe that I am among those 'lost sheep of the House of Israel'
that he so lovingly spoke of gathering. 

 

However, I can in no way look to him as my Savior or my Redeemer (Isaiah
59:16-20).only G-d can hold that position; and I believe that if we could
ask Yeshua himself, he would not want our worship and praise for either of
those roles. 

 

Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got
some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet'
and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just
that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me
peace.

 

I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior
and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and
source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine
upon us, each and every one!

 

Shavua tov and blessings to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor
and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting
them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal'
intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I
am trying to avoid.

 

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor
for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to
me.

 

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of
the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is
Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of
Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.
The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!
It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood
not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity
(the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by
both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from James Tabor
<jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.
It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like
this;

 

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

 

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an
intercessor (King).

2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the
question of why Messiah would need to die)?

3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

 

The thought that follows is new to me.  

 

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in
terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor
became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that
G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with
Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective
that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research
more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh)
perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national"
figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an
individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure
for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian
doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine
was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation
(m ore research).

 

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 





Boker tov L'Kulchem,

 

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as
it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always
defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com
and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to
rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

 

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of
the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, '
BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult
anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of
the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.
It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am
coming from....

 

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

 

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all
hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah
2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

 

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the
Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the
Davidic Dynasty).

 

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are
some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human
form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being
above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews
believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His
creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

 

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

    

    

 


  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

size=2 width="100%" align=center> 

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/a4453d34/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sun May  4 22:31:46 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:01:46 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>	<86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net>	<AB6EEFB27C404653B6AE0DF663253CA2@Beeblebrox><048b01c8adfb$7b9ca880$72d5f980$@com>
	<8CA7C174012301D-4CC-68A5@FWM-M05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <D41875690E8B4D41AEEF6E1E14435CB9@JessicaPC>

Have had the same query myself Hanoch, especially when you consider the complexity of the design & manufacture of the veil. I certainly would think the event worth recording. Unless I am seriously mistaken, and am ready to be corrected ,- it's like the case of Herod murdering the children.....no other historical record or evidence has turned up except what is written in the NT. 
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Hi Patty!

      Other then that mention in Matthew of the "veil of the Temple being torn in two...,"  I have never, ever heard or read any other source (Jewish, Josephus, Roman, etc) that mentions that occurring.  It seems that it would have been a significant an event to have been recorded, don't you think?  

     Color me CURIOUS....

   Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Sun, 4 May 2008 11:28 am
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Hi Sharon,

  I believe the Shekinah came and departed several times throughout the history of Israel, the last mention being the Departure during the time of Yeshua:

  (Mt. 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent to you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! (Mt. 23:38) Behold, your house is left to you desolate."
  (Mt. 27:51) "the veil of the Temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks rent."
  Patty

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:15 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

  Dear James, and all,

  I have been thinking of the phrase "2nd coming of YHVH", and was wondering why "2nd".   What/when was the 1st?   Was that perhaps back in the Garden?  The concept of YHVH coming to earth in any form is also incomprehensible to me at this stage of my understanding - but maybe I have missed the point.

  Thanks for all the input,
  Sharon


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: James Tabor 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:24 AM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

    One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

    I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

    Good week,

    James


     
_______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/5365d419/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sun May  4 22:56:19 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:26:19 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BC8092FDD0F143DDBE93F9259ACB2B80@JessicaPC>

Dearest Betty,
You certainly have a way with words - perfectly spoken (I mean written). Thank you.
Shalom,
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty Givin 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:13 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Shalom all! 

   

  I have really "missed" being a part of the dialogue these past few days; and I mean it both ways.missed it spiritually and "missed" out of reading so much of what everyone has written.  With over 400 emails to go thru, I realize that I cannot get to them all, so I am just "jumping in" here.  Please forgive me if my comments have already been stated by others.

   

  In my opinion, John hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph here when he said, 

  SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

   

  There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

   

  I really think the pitchforks and torches will not be needed, not within this group, anyway!  Just from a cursory reading of some of the emails, my feeling is that each and every one of you who have contributed have done it with the utmost respect for the other.  The Messiah issue is probably one of the hottest topics around and has 'pushed many a button' down thru the centuries, yet here we are discussing it honestly and openly.

   

  My own simplistic feelings on the matter are that we have, down thru the centuries allowed the 'Messiah' issues to have far too much emphasis, and, as John said.that that very fact continues to separate Jews and Christians.  

   

  The Torah and Tanakh do not have their emphasis on the 'Messiah,' but rather on HaShem, as the Savior and Redeemer, whereas the New Testament writings seem to focus on the 'Messiah.' I am not saying nor even thinking that we need to throw out everything that we hold dear and everything that we have been taught (G-d forbid!)  I do however, firmly believe that we need to look at everything in the light of Torah. And sometimes the resulting process can be very painful.

   

  That said, I am very grateful for my Christian heritage.  Even though there were many untruths that I had to distance myself from, my love and gratitude and respect of Jesus/Yeshua will never be diminished; for I look to him as being the one primary force that brought me to HaShem and to a discovery of Torah.  I believe that I am among those 'lost sheep of the House of Israel' that he so lovingly spoke of gathering. 

   

  However, I can in no way look to him as my Savior or my Redeemer (Isaiah 59:16-20).only G-d can hold that position; and I believe that if we could ask Yeshua himself, he would not want our worship and praise for either of those roles. 

   

  Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet' and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me peace.

   

  I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine upon us, each and every one!

   

  Shavua tov and blessings to all,

   

  Betty/Elisheva

   

   

   

   

   

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

   

  Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.

   

  So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.

   

  But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

   

  SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

   

  There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

   

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 

   

    -------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

    One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

     

    I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

     

    Good week,

     

    James

     

     

    On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



    I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

     

    There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

     

    1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).

    2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?

    3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

     

    The thought that follows is new to me.  

     

    It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

     

    That's all I got right now.  Comments?

     

    --
    John C. 

    "Be excellent to each other!" 
    Bill and Ted 

     

      -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




      Boker tov L'Kulchem,

       

          I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

       

          PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

       

          Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

       

      What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

      1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

      2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

      3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

      4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

       

      5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

       

      6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


          The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

              Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

       

              B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
      Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

          

          






--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

    _______________________________________________

     



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/eb64ee4e/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun May  4 23:15:50 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:15:50 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
	<1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
	<481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805042115w7247e0b7ma6621ef87e88c4a6@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Cornie,

An attachment is good for me too.

Thanks,
Kim

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>  Hi Cornie,
>
> Yes, please do send me the entire file (as opposed to the shortened
> version).  If you could send it in an attachment, that would be great.  You
> may send it to my personal address if you so chose, or send it through the
> List, since an attachment would not tie up space on the Dialogue site.  That
> way everyone could look at it and save it to their computers if they wish.
> Am looking very forward to seeing it.  I rather think that we have very much
> that we agree upon, but will certainly write you concerning anything I
> question.
>
> Thank you so much, Cornie, and blessing be upon you and your family,
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> Pat and Jessica, I really admire your sincere search for the real truth.
> And this goes to you others as well. And Pat,  should you get to read my 70
> plus questions, then please don't be shy to point out how you would differ.
> I am open to learn the from any source. As soon as you let me know what you
> want concerning those 70 questions I will send them to you. I have them in a
> shortened file of 5 or so pages, but they don't necessarily make sense
> without the 61 pages they belong to. Do you want me to send them to you
> personally in an attachment or  in a couple of e-mails. I don't have them
> divided into chapters. And now I may even look at them in a different light.
> I made a lengthy 6 page introduction. But all of this on the condition that
> I had no confidence in the N.T., (accept of course what agrees with the
> Tanach)
>
> . The Pastor and me got along fine. Their is no bitterness or harshness if
> I remember it correct throughout our 1 - 1/2 years of dialogue. He was quite
> confident from the start that he would point it out to me through the Tanach
> , or Old Testament that I needed to come back to Christianity to be saved,
> and that it took a sacrifice of blood to be saved, he referred to Leviticus
> 16, (and I can not find it there so quick what it also says), I know it is
> there somewhere. It is true as he quotes, but at the same time it says that
> If they are to poor to be able to bring 2 turtle doves, for a sin offering,
> it suffices to bring a measure of meal, (no blood in it) for a sin offering.
>
>
> I believe and  agree it takes repentance to become free from sin. It is
> found in the Talmud (yoma 86b) that he who repents out of fear of punishment
> or divine retribution, his intentional sins are transformed into
> unintentional accidental sins, and he who repents out of his love for HaShem
> his intentional sins are transformed into merits.
>
> I look forward to the message this evening from Ross, although I have to
> admit I did not quite see what exactly he wanted to tell us, or what he
> referred to. Much of it was a bit new to me at this point.
>
> Cornie
>
> Pat Robbins wrote:
>
> Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this "spiritual"
> place to wait until the end for his time to return, I immediately think of
> Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a whirlwind while still in his
> physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We greatly anticipate Elijah's return, and
> since HaSHem is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He could conceivably
> have done something similar in regard to Yeshua.
>
> I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, but
> now that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why not?"  There is
> precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form.
>
> On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, then
> his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and
> bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and there
> would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not there.  As I
> understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not added until a year
> after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to place the remaining bones
> into their box.  And, of course, because there have been times when N.T.
> editors appear to have reworked the original writings to accord
> with official dogma, as opposed to actual truth, I have had great difficulty
> wanting to look at it at all.
>
> Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the N.T.
> are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the facts buried therein
> while exposing every lie.  And may the name and memory of Yeshua be
> vindicated.
>
> Blessings to you,
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> *John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't
> understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another
> (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator
> directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never
> arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn
> to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30
> & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so
> hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way
> that we would find impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of
> interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle
> with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the
> yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)*
> *We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived.Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah
> and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than in the 'blood' of
> another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the
> 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram
> in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a
> personal 'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere'
> where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.  Even
> though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea
> just doesn't want to stick. The concept just raises another question in my
> head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then
> where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly
> tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form
> ???? I'm confused.*
> *Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the
> people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual
> to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for
> the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.  This is
> the one time that it was essential for the people to be of  'one mind and
> one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. *
> *There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural
> sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and
> administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity
> with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the
> Universe. *
> *I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as o**ur
> 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and the
> others in this Dialogue to travel with.*
> *May HaShem Bless your search,*
> *Jessica*
> **
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never
> have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please
> HaShem.
> >
> > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre
> research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my
> point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is
> (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior
> aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
> >
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> *>
> >*
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1412 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 4:34 PM
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/5280e554/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Sun May  4 23:37:49 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:37:49 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
In-Reply-To: <c15.12edd175.354e8564@aol.com>
References: <c15.12edd175.354e8564@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805042137h37226a8ax3ec7f428b7644145@mail.gmail.com>

Hanoch,

Hey, if you come to Texas you can help me move.

Kim

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 10:20 PM, <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote:

>  Shavua tov Betty!
>
>     We all miss you - so where are you hiding?  I don't have the time to
> come down to Texas this week to search for you, so please speak up now!
> :-)
>
>     And if I have to come to Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty
> sight!
>
>     Luv ya,
>             *  Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah
> *
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/591c6658/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 23:45:36 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 04:45:36 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050520080445.9058.481E90EE000AC89C0000236222218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Hanoch,

I found my Book of Mormon.  I'm not sure I can shed any light on the question here but I'll try.

The verse your friend is referring to is 2Nephi 3:12 in the book I have.  You have to have a little backgound to catch the inferrence here so I'll give a thumbnail sketch (I do recommend that you get a copy if you really want to get into this, it is a very convoluted story), but I am certainly no Mormon scholar.  The book was written by Joseph Smith as an interpretation of some plates delivered to him by a 'messenger' named Moroni who is the son of Mormon and the last of the historians to record the words given to the Lamanites (apparently descendents of the biblical Joseph).  The first of the historians was a prophet by the name of Nephi who was the son of Lehi who lived in Jerusalem around the time of the biblical King Zedekiah.  Lehi had several other sons, two of which were born to him in the wilderness during his exile and were named Jacob and Joseph, Joseph being the younger.

The reference (admittedly out of context) implies that the writings of the house of Judah (the Bible) and writings of the house of Joseph (Lehi's Joseph) (the plates) will be joined together to confound false doctrines and create peace between Judah and Joseph (the inferrence here is too hard to miss).  This joining will be done by a decendent of Joseph called after his name (Joseph Smith?) and is in reality the Book of Mormon, if I get this correctly.

That's the best I can get out of this in a quick read.  I'm not sure I want to go further with it.  I hope this gives you an inkling of the book

Shalom man.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 


Shavua tov L'Kulchem,

    Right before Shabbat I got a note from a friend of mine asking for my take on a verse in the Book of Morman.   Since I don't have one of those ("Sorry, I just have 9 different New Testaments, no Book of Morman..."), could someone tell me what they think of the following:

 look up 2 Nephi 2 (in some versions it is 2 Nephi 3) where Lehi speaks to his last born son, Joseph.  Note especially the verses pertaining to fruit of the loins of Joseph and Judah together WRITING to the "confounding of doctrines, laying down of contentions, and establishing peace between "the fruit of thy loins" and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the Last Days ..."

    I will try to pick up a copy of the Book of Morman soon, maybe from one of those smiling LDS guys, who want to 'save' my Jewish soul.....but in the meantime, can anyone shed some light on this, and I'll pass it along?

    Toda!
             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah







Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/e46c18d7/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Sun May  4 23:47:27 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 14:17:27 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <01a401c8adf0$d0422050$6600a8c0@davesbook>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<01a401c8adf0$d0422050$6600a8c0@davesbook>
Message-ID: <0514C81D938D4693AEFAB9216F0B0A36@JessicaPC>

Thank you Dave - well said.
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dave Cole 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 11:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Hey John and Jessica......(and all ya'll)

  I like to keep it simple......Gen chapter 4 vs. 5,6 & 7.   

  what a day we live in.....
  dave
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
  To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:07 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please HaShem.
  > 
  > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
  > 
  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
  > 
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>
  > 
  > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:11:18 
  > To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
  > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
  > 
  > 
  > Hey John, 
  > This is an incredible 'journey' that we are all on isn't it? Full of questions, insights and revelations. May I share with you some of my own thoughts? 
  > My belief is that as individuals, we are all responsible for our own conduct, which of course includes our sins, and that we are all responsible for 'making amends' either with HaShem or with whomever we have sinned against. 
  > Somehow Xtianity (or a segment of the movement) chose to transfer that personal responsibility onto a 'saviour figure' therefore abrogating their own individual responsibility by simply 'believing on him' to take away their sins. I apologise if that may seem offensive to anyone, but that's just my belief. 
  > On the other hand, the 'nation of Israel' needs leadership that will guide the people in the ways of HaShem so that accidental, or indeed deliberate, sinning is so reduced as to not affect the overall 'holiness' of the nation. It was the leadership in Yeshua's day that was the greatest stumbling block to the nation, and guess what, it appears to be the same today. (along with the harrassment, and harsh treatment of the religious stalwarts) 
  > Yeshua was a totally orthodox Rabbi who spoke on behalf of HaShem to call the people back to Torah and away from the 'factions' and 'traditions' of the religious leaders at that time. If he had not come with the 'true Torah', it may have become completely lost (who knows). 
  > I like to think that my mind is 'open' regarding The Anointed One of HaShem. There have been (as Hanoch pointed out) a great many very righteous men throughout the ages who also were horrendously tortured and murdered because of baseless hatred, and I believe, in order to suppress the teaching of Moses (ie: Torah) because primarily it proved them 'guilty' of it's abuse and misuse. 
  > I am still 'confused' about what an Anointed One will do, since it is HaShem who is the King of the Universe. However Psalm 122:5 speaks of 'thrones', plural. Surely a king has only one throne or have I missed something? Maybe there will be joint rule - a King for the Spirit and a King for the Body?? 
  > Keep searching John, as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find me," says Adonai. 
  > Shalom, 
  > Jessica 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  
  > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
  > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:17 PM 
  > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > I had an interesting thought today. Was there when I woke up this morning. It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this; 
  > 
  > There is really a heirarchy of three important questions, 
  > 
  > 1.) Why must there be a Messiah? More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King). 
  > 2.) What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)? 
  > 3.) Who is (will be) Messiah. 
  > 
  > The thought that follows is new to me. 
  > 
  > It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one. I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him. The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d. The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor. So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine. And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research). 
  > 
  > That's all I got right now. Comments? 
  > 
  > --
  > John C. 
  > 
  > "Be excellent to each other!" 
  > Bill and Ted 
  > 
  > -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 
  > 
  > 
  > Boker tov L'Kulchem, 
  > 
  > I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way. Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late..."). 
  > 
  > PLEASE NOTE: These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach'). Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW... I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view. It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from.... 
  > 
  > Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time: 
  > 
  > What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
  > 
  > 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
  > 
  > 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
  > 
  > 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would 'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
  > 
  > 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). 
  > 
  > 5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty). 
  > 
  > 6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee 
  > 
  > The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
  > 
  > Looking forward to our continued dialogue, 
  > 
  > B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael, 
  > Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  > Now we all know Rav Kahane was right... 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ----------------
  > Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL 
  >    Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> . 
  > 
  > ----------------
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > _______________________________________________
  > 
  > 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  > _______________________________________________
  > 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/0c73af91/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Sun May  4 23:50:22 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 04:50:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8ae5e$c7d568f0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <BLU125-DS6F5B56E17629C59CB6E19BAD70@phx.gbl>
	<007f01c8ae5e$c7d568f0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <050520080450.13157.481E9206000509FF0000336522218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Ross has been saying that for a long time.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" <bkgivin at charter.net>: -------------- 


Yes, Pat, it is, and it certainly caught my attention!  I have some ideas, but that is all they are. 
 
 I am certainly not the first one who has made the observation about upholding the ?messenger? and making him the emphasis rather than the ?message,? that he brought; and that, from my perspective, is where the unraveling began?
 
Hope to be on line again tomorrow?busy day ahead!
 
Laila tov on this the second day of Sabbath and 16th night of the omer!
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:01 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
So true, Betty!  WHY was the emphasis switched from HaSHem in the Tenach, to Messiah in the N.T.?  That's a very serious detour!  ~ Pat
 
From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Shalom all! 
 
I have really ?missed? being a part of the dialogue these past few days; and I mean it both ways?missed it spiritually and ?missed? out of reading so much of what everyone has written.  With over 400 emails to go thru, I realize that I cannot get to them all, so I am just ?jumping in? here.  Please forgive me if my comments have already been stated by others.
 
In my opinion, John hit the nail on the head in his last paragraph here when he said, 
SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.
 
There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!
 
I really think the pitchforks and torches will not be needed, not within this group, anyway!  Just from a cursory reading of some of the emails, my feeling is that each and every one of you who have contributed have done it with the utmost respect for the other.  The Messiah issue is probably one of the hottest topics around and has ?pushed many a button? down thru the centuries, yet here we are discussing it honestly and openly.
 
My own simplistic feelings on the matter are that we have, down thru the centuries allowed the ?Messiah? issues to have far too much emphasis, and, as John said?that that very fact continues to separate Jews and Christians.  
 
The Torah and Tanakh do not have their emphasis on the ?Messiah,? but rather on HaShem, as the Savior and Redeemer, whereas the New Testament writings seem to focus on the ?Messiah.? I am not saying nor even thinking that we need to throw out everything that we hold dear and everything that we have been taught (G-d forbid!)  I do however, firmly believe that we need to look at everything in the light of Torah. And sometimes the resulting process can be very painful.
 
That said, I am very grateful for my Christian heritage.  Even though there were many untruths that I had to distance myself from, my love and gratitude and respect of Jesus/Yeshua will never be diminished; for I look to him as being the one primary force that brought me to HaShem and to a discovery of Torah.  I believe that I am among those ?lost sheep of the House of Israel? that he so lovingly spoke of gathering. 
 
However, I can in no way look to him as my Savior or my Redeemer (Isaiah 59:16-20)?only G-d can hold that position; and I believe that if we could ask Yeshua himself, he would not want our worship and praise for either of those roles. 
 
Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got some very good advice which I have followed to this day?go in your ?closet? and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob??  I did just that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me peace.
 
I still don?t have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine upon us, each and every one!
 
Shavua tov and blessings to all,
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.
 
So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.
 
But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.
 
SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.
 
There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 
 
I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
 
Good week,
 
James
 
 
On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;
 
There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,
 
1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).
2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?
3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.
 
The thought that follows is new to me.  
 
It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).
 
That's all I got right now.  Comments?
 
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
 
-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




Boker tov L'Kulchem,
 
    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  
 
    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....
 
    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:
 
What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
 
5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).
 
6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee

    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,
 
        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
    
    
 



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
_______________________________________________
 
size=2 width="100%" align=center> 
_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3b9960c3/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 00:48:33 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 05:48:33 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
Message-ID: <050520080548.28264.481E9FAF000AB9E400006E6822218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey folks,

Just writing to let y'all know that I am going to drop out of the list for awhile.  I have some things to catch up on and prepare for.  I will route the list traffic to a folder and check it periodically.  Anyone who needs or wants to contact me can email me individually.

It's been a rewarding discussion this week.  "See" y'all soon.

Brachot v'Shalom

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/7a188790/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Mon May  5 01:00:23 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 15:30:23 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <050520080548.28264.481E9FAF000AB9E400006E6822218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050520080548.28264.481E9FAF000AB9E400006E6822218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <F3DA564463224265B53878B89C8E2632@JessicaPC>

We'll miss you John. Don't stay away too long.
Brachot v'Shalom,
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
  To: Dialogue 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:18 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)


  Hey folks,

  Just writing to let y'all know that I am going to drop out of the list for awhile.  I have some things to catch up on and prepare for.  I will route the list traffic to a folder and check it periodically.  Anyone who needs or wants to contact me can email me individually.

  It's been a rewarding discussion this week.  "See" y'all soon.

  Brachot v'Shalom

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/214a4293/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Mon May  5 01:17:33 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 01:17:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><86AB96AF-7C2F-4971-B3A9-6042ECDD84A0@earthlink.net><050420081844.27055.481E040C00026837000069AF22230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><BLU125-DS266B3E0536E79F2992F7ABAD40@phx.gbl>
	<1415880760-1209932648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1668092650-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <023b01c8ae77$b52aee50$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Pat, Meant to tell you last night how tickled I got when you 
said....something about hearing God's "whistle"  ...If people wake up and 
hear HaSHem's whistle, that was it.....it turned over my tickle-box.  Thanks 
for the laugh!   and sorry for putting you to sleep last night!  I am 
praying that HaShem gives you the best nights' sleep ever!!!   Love,  Loy


> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>
> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 15:30:15
> To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
> More like bringing out the confetti and Manischewitz~!~~~~! This does 
> makes sense, John!!!
>
> Also, as an aside, am thinking that if Yeshua was trying to regather the 
> Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, couldn't that have potentially toppled 
> the entire Roman Empire? If the Lost Ones had started returning en masse 
> to the Land, wouldn't their defection have weakened the Empire in many of 
> its regions? It would be the same as if they start returning in colossal 
> numbers today, wouldn't that upset the balance of power in our world?
>
> For this reason, there is very great incentive from the enemies of G-d to 
> keep the whole thing on a spiritual level, not a physical one. If people 
> wake up and hear HaSHem's whistle, the nations will be depleted of many of 
> their brightest and best, for both Judah and Israel will Return! ~Pat
>
>
>
> From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 2:44 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>
>
> Exactly James! My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor 
> and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are 
> afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him. This is not a 
> 'personal' intercessor. It could be if one were to spiritualize it but 
> that is what I am trying to avoid.
>
> So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor 
> for the Nation, not for the person. This distinction makes perfect sense 
> to me.
>
> But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention 
> of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" 
> is Messiah. The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of 
> Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe. 
> The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE 
> G-d! It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is 
> understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.
>
> SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity 
> (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion 
> by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the 
> Tanakh.
>
> There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from James Tabor 
> <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 
>
> One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH 
> himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those 
> declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: 
> That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not 
> Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
>
>
>
> I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, 
> especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and 
> Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about 
> the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd 
> Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets. I cover this 
> rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of 
> which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who 
> assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that 
> sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.
>
>
> Good week,
>
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
> <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>  wrote:
>
>
>
> I had an interesting thought today. Was there when I woke up this morning. 
> It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like 
> this;
>
> There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,
>
> 1.) Why must there be a Messiah? More accurately, why must there be an 
> intercessor (King).
> 2.) What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the 
> question of why Messiah would need to die)?
> 3.) Who is (will be) Messiah.
>
> The thought that follows is new to me.
>
> It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in 
> terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor 
> became a personal one. I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that 
> G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with 
> Him. The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah 
> perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to 
> research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d. The Torah 
> (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a 
> "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and 
> G-d, not an individual intercessor. So what seems to me to be an 
> intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" 
> figure in the Christian doctrine. And as of this time I am in no way 
> convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of 
> the first century congregation (m ore research).
>
> That's all I got right now. Comments?
>
> --
> John C.
>
> "Be excellent to each other!"
> Bill and Ted
>
> -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com 
> <mailto:YoungBarzel at aol.com> : -------------- 
>
>
> Boker tov L'Kulchem,
>
> I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it 
> became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their 
> associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always 
> defining it the same way. Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com 
> and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have 
> to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").
>
> PLEASE NOTE: These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the 
> role of the Messiah ('Mashiach'). Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' 
> BTW... I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult 
> anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding 
> of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish 
> view. It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where 
> I am coming from....
>
> Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:
>
> What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that 
> he will:
>
> 1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's 
> not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
>
> 2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
>
> 3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David 
> Aaron of Isralight, that he would 'negotiate world peace'), and end all 
> hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not 
> lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." 
> (Isaiah 2:4)
>
> 4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, 
> which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all 
> the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" 
> (Zechariah 14:9).
>
> 5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the 
> Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the 
> Davidic Dynasty).
>
> 6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are 
> some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and 
> Jubilee
>
> The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born 
> naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of 
> supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human 
> form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as 
> being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. 
> Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is 
> His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.
>
> Looking forward to our continued dialogue,
>
> B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
> Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at 
> AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> 
> ._______________________________________________
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> 



From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 04:39:58 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 02:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
In-Reply-To: <cb2.2f607a3a.354fc78e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <553154.70744.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/fea37a19/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 06:18:38 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 07:18:38 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
Message-ID: <d2d.2951fb26.3550470e@aol.com>

Sho' 'nuff, ma'am!   :-)  Hope things are going well Kim,  and this move, as 
you said, at least gets you closer to mom and friends.  
 
BTW...I think I might have another Rabbinic referral for you in  
Houston....checking it out now...
 
How to catch up soon,
            Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/07a0c71d/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 06:31:53 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 07:31:53 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
Message-ID: <cad.2fb20a13.35504a29@aol.com>

Hey Tracy,
 
    Thanks very much for your email, as  well as all the references, I hope 
to be able to check them all out by next  week.  I really appreciate it!  Take 
care and have a great  week!
 
    Best regards,
            Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3cc01e81/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Mon May  5 08:17:16 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:17:16 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <bce.25d5fd0d.355062dc@aol.com>

Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of  Yeshua, 
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and  
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each  answer 
the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If  God did not 
raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct  
interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have  
different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different  ways 
I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss  these 
issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In  seems 
that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah  
observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have  
observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to  
distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord,  
i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same  problem.
 
However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I  
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I  have 
not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in  
the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second  
hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through  the 
faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it  can 
give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their  writings. 
This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of  course 
this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in  the 
Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix  the translations. 
 
In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God  
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does  
his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of  
course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a  
dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the  
blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the  
shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not 
do?  Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first  
place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is  
repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins  
against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not  
require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did  
require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 
 
And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the  
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with  
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no  
longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the  Tanach 
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no  longer 
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would  just show 
mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On  the other 
hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that  atonement 
accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions  are set 
before us.
 
Take care
 
CB     



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/ea357f84/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 04:50:22 +0000
Size: 54345
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/ea357f84/attachment.mht 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 08:45:17 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 08:45:17 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <050520080548.28264.481E9FAF000AB9E400006E6822218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <007f01c8aeb6$40e50190$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Hi John,

 

We will miss you, but certainly understand.  As much as we want to, we
cannot always do all that we want to do.  Take care of yourself, and jump
back in when you can!

 

Brachot v'Shalom back to you!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:49 AM
To: Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)

 

Hey folks,

 

Just writing to let y'all know that I am going to drop out of the list for
awhile.  I have some things to catch up on and prepare for.  I will route
the list traffic to a folder and check it periodically.  Anyone who needs or
wants to contact me can email me individually.

 

It's been a rewarding discussion this week.  "See" y'all soon.

 

Brachot v'Shalom

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3a3a0cf6/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 08:55:20 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:55:20 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8aeb6$40e50190$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <007f01c8aeb6$40e50190$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS361DC71306E7ACE3678CDBAD70@phx.gbl>

Bummer, John!!!!  You will be totally missed!!!!  ~ Pat


From: Betty Givin 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:45 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] (no subject)


Hi John,

 

We will miss you, but certainly understand.  As much as we want to, we cannot always do all that we want to do.  Take care of yourself, and jump back in when you can!

 

Brachot v'Shalom back to you!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:49 AM
To: Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] (no subject)

 

Hey folks,

 

Just writing to let y'all know that I am going to drop out of the list for awhile.  I have some things to catch up on and prepare for.  I will route the list traffic to a folder and check it periodically.  Anyone who needs or wants to contact me can email me individually.

 

It's been a rewarding discussion this week.  "See" y'all soon.

 

Brachot v'Shalom

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/72620765/attachment.html 

From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 09:06:52 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:06:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bce.25d5fd0d.355062dc@aol.com>
References: <bce.25d5fd0d.355062dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com>

CB,  You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where 
there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark?  It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, 
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to 
be forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any 
sacrifice to be offered.  Or are we just to assume he was meaning that 
also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

>
> Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of 
> Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the 
> redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the 
> road in how we each answer the question of whether or not?God raised 
> Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have 
> a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of 
> God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the 
> resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. 
> It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these 
> issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. 
> In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of 
> Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In 
> my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us 
> difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD 
> is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm 
> sure each of you have discovered the same problem.
> ?
> However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the 
> context I think?determines in a great many cases where we should 
> render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances 
> that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is 
> greater than I. I think a second hindrance?for us is the fact that 
> those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua?had to 
> emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance 
> that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can 
> give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course 
> this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in 
> the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix 
> the?translations.
> ?
> In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did 
> God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead 
> what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and 
> restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead 
> the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the 
> plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats 
> as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of 
> Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or 
> even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the 
> first place? Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where 
> there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing? 
> ?When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are 
> required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the 
> difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as 
> atonement for sin?
> ?
> And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with 
> the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do 
> away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would 
> just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have 
> evidence in the Tanach?that they day would come when Yahovah would 
> change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for 
> atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, 
> requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if 
> Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement 
> accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions 
> are set before us.
> ?
> Take care
> ?
> CB?????
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 6063 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/0c22504a/attachment.bin 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 09:24:37 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:24:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition.

 

No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.

 

This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today.

 

Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:


Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua,
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem.


 


However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations.


 


In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin?


 


And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just
show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On
the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that
atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard
questions are set before us.


 


Take care


 


CB     






-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/787b9b91/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 09:36:51 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:36:51 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
In-Reply-To: <553154.70744.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c8aebd$7580dad0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Yes, Hanoch, thanks for the info on the book.  It sounds interesting.  And
thank you, Tracy, for your references pointing to the other side of the
coin. I think there is no doubt among most of us that thru the years, the
New Testament writings have become convoluted.it is a difficult task indeed
to sort it all out and find the truth.I still believe that the true test is
Torah.

 

But thru diligence, there is hope for us all to find our answers.  As
Jessica so aptly quoted .

as Jeremiah says in chapter 29 verses 13 & 14 "When you seek me, you will
find me, provided you seek for me wholeheartedly; and I will let you find
me," says Adonai..

 

Thanks, Tracy.  I do believe that we find ourselves amongst a very unusual
group of people here; and it is amazing that we can all speak our minds and
our hearts and find respect.  And yes, Dave, the first few books of Genesis
speak volumes.

 

Shalom and blessings to you and Lynn and all,

 

Betty/Elisheva 



  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 4:40 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....

 


Thanks Hanoch and James. I will probably read this book sometime. However,

 

I have read Robert Eisenman's Book, which is referenced below, as well as
others who hold his views and I just finished Dr. Tabor's intriguing book,
"The Jesus Dynasty. I have considered these 'Ebionite' perspectives and have
prayed about them diligently. Although, there is much to commend and agree
with in such works from such brilliant scholars, I still hold to a different
perspective on Shaul/Paul and his writings. 

 

I believe that Christianity 'twists' what Paul taught and some cannot get
beyond 'the glasses' of Christianity through which Paul is misinterpreted.
By such representation of Paul, many who are discovering their Hebrew Roots,
get bitter at Shaul/Paul as he is falsely misrepresented as anti-Torah and
anti-Israel, and then, they create 'Myths' of their own in order to
discredit him. In my humble opinion, [and all of our opinions are humble,
huh gang!!], such bitterness and subsequent perpetuation of Christianity's
false version of Paul is misguided. 

 

There are Orthodox Jews who believe Paul to be "an Apostate"  like at
<http://www.netzarim.co.il> www.netzarim.co.il  and
<http://www.ebionite.org> www.ebionite.org  and other Orthodox Jews who
believe that he was  "a Torah Giant"  like at   <http://www.betemunah.org>
www.betemunah.org  as well as Joseph Goode at  <http://www.hatikva.org>
www.hatikva.org .  I, myself, am of the latter opinion, having studied all
of these views extensively and prayed over them intensively. 

 

At United Israel World Union there apparently are those from these two
extreme positions as well as those somewhere in between trying to sort it
all out. What a miracle it will be if we are able to work together in the
common beliefs and common goals stated in its charter!! Obviously, we all
want to try.

 

I would like to offer for your consideration an alternate scholarly version
of the development of the Gospels and Acts other than that which is common
among many scholars of today.

 

http://www.onhigh.org/GospelOfLukeIndex.htm

 

http://www.onhigh.org/NetsarimInterpretation.htm

 

http://www.onhigh.org/SearchingForThe%20WholeTruth.htm

 

I and others can also offer alternate perspectives on various 'questionable'
verses in Paul's letters. If we are wrong, then at least we're under the
delusion that Paul was a Torah Observant Jewish Rabbi, who was leading lost
and assimilated Israelites among the Gentiles into Torah observance and who
never taught any type of 'G-d in the flesh' Trinitarianism, Dualism, or
Paganism.

 

Shalom u'berachot,

 

Tracy



--- On Sun, 5/4/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote:

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com>
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2008, 9:14 PM

Shalom L'Kulchem,

 

    I've mentioned this book before - How Jesus Became Christian by
Professor Barrie Wilson, and I know that James has mentioned that he wants
to write a review of it....but I felt I had to mention it again.  There a
number of people who have asked a number of very valid questions in recent
discussions about the role of a Messiah, and how the NT matches up, or
strays, from the Tanach.  

 

    I would STRONGLY urge anyone with an open, inquiring mind to read this
book....I've included the Publisher's Weekly piece on it...if anyone wants
more details, please give me a shout.  But this is a MUST READ.

                Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

 

Editorial Reviews

>From Publishers Weekly
Of the making of Jesus books there appears to be no end. Although Wilson,
professor of religious studies at Toronto's York University, treads familiar
ground already covered by Geza Vermes in Jesus the Jew and Amy-Jill Levine
in The Misunderstood Jew, he provokes new thoughts about Jesus' identity.
Taking up where Robert Eisenman left off in James, the Brother of Jesus,
Wilson calls his argument the Jesus Cover-Up Thesis and claims that the
religion of Paul displaced the teachings of Jesus so that Paul's preaching
about a divine gentile Christ covered up the human Jewish Jesus. Wilson
helpfully surveys the political, social and religious contexts of ancient
Palestine, demonstrating that the religion of James, the brother of Jesus,
was much closer to the religious practice of Jesus himself, but that the
followers of Paul suppressed Jesus' teachings in favor of their own leader.
Wilson challenges the veracity of the book of Acts, arguing that the
followers of Paul created these tales to support the heroic character of
their founder in his quest to establish a new religion. Wilson's instructive
book introduces important questions about early Christianity for those
unfamiliar with the debates about the historical Jesus. (Mar.) 
Copyright C Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All
rights reserved. --This text refers to the
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312362781/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283
155> Hardcover edition. 






  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8H
DtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  it now. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/41225545/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Mon May  5 09:37:32 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:37:32 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Message-ID: <ca2.2de5c601.355075ac@aol.com>

Excellent question Rick. Yohanan calls for repentance for the kingdom  of 
heaven is at hand. Since the second temple still stood in those days, the  
sacrifices for atonement were being performed and all things were continuing as  of 
old. If it continued as such I suppose that nothing would have changed.  
However, as the story goes Yeshua prophesied the destruction of the second  temple 
leaving no stone upon another. And of course that is now history behind  us. 
To date no third temple has been built and Hamoch can fill us in on how  animal 
sacrifice was replaced by the Rabbinic post- 70 CE. However, from the  view 
of the disciples of Yeshua, they taught that Yeshua' offering himself as  the 
Passover, shedding his own blood, became a continual atonement, or as it was  
said some where we now have the atonement. And this gets back to one of those  
hard questions. Where were these disciples of Yeshua getting their  
information that Yeshua was going to die, shed his blood - and that in doing so,  would 
accomplish an everlasting atonement? 
 
Were they correct or did they give their own lives, take beatings, while  all 
the while completely mistaken in how they interpreted the Torah, Prophets,  
and Writings? Again these are hard questions that each of us must answer in our 
 own way and beliefs. You raise a good question, anyone have answers?
 
CB.  



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/a189c7a3/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Rick Gozhanskij <rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 09:06:52 -0500
Size: 14229
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/a189c7a3/attachment.mht 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Mon May  5 10:06:02 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:06:02 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin><3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl><8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC><026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325><E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC><F5DB4B2BCB55413B9AD4188812821498@sherryPC>
	<2EC7B5A047434740A2253B7152437A61@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <00f701c8aec1$8b5f2a10$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Jessica,  So sorry to hear about your mother's memory problems. I know it can be so very difficult for her as well as for those looking on. Are you caring for her at home with you or what? How old is she?   Unfortunately, I do not posses the same wonderful memory as mother. 

My mother is about the same as yours....some days better than others.  I found her in the shower yesterday with both hearing aids in her ears and wet.  Last wk she took 2 showers in one day while in the recent past she would go a week without permitting one.  Oh well, mother taught me "Cleanliness is next to Godliness."   so all is really well here.

Because of her past acuity Southwestern Medical School is planning on harvesting her brain on which to do research when she passes . She was so unusual to be so old 102 1/2 and still so lucid......but not so good now as in the past. I wonder what her yearly brain ck-up will bring this very month. I take her to Dallas (100 miles from Waco) where they rigorously test her for over 2 hrs. 

It is mid-morning here and just started raining....surely wish it would rain in Israel....learned last night that because of Oslo they must give 500 million cubic meters of water every year to Jordon and that that is why there is a shortage NOT just because of the lack of rain. 

So very sorry about your Mom.   Hope you have a blessed day/week/yr/life. 

Love,Loy Leorah  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessyyica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do Sherry.
  Love from your sister over the ocean,
  Jessica

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: sherry cole 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


    Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,
    I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.
    Thank you so much,
    Love and Blessings,
    Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Jessica 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


      How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 
      It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.
      Blessings to your Mum.
      And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.
      Blessings and Shalom,
      Jessica

      I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

        love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG. 
      Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/d6f7dca8/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Mon May  5 10:16:07 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:16:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
References: <006401c8a92d$946b6db0$643c66c9@bettygivin><3596C55181F741F997E34B635ECB5DDD@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS735A393950787377E041BBAD80@phx.gbl><8BB0EE34245941F394C6E11CB61A9A58@JessicaPC><026101c8aadd$c76357d0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325><E6700496F08641BBAF100BC9A51A5FDD@JessicaPC><F5DB4B2BCB55413B9AD4188812821498@sherryPC>
	<2EC7B5A047434740A2253B7152437A61@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <010101c8aec2$f27e6fc0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Sherry,  Bless your heart....mother does the same... I put her glasses and hearing aids "ON" and a very few minutes they are gone.....somewhere?  who knows.  so frustrating!!! but probably not nearly as frustrating as having to wear them in the first place.   
I meant to address that last e-mail to jessica to you as well....so read it as for you too.   Must get busy and get mother up....she would sleep the entire day and almost never ever eat.....if I would let her.
 
Blessings to you, dear one.  I figure we will get our "reward" one day either here or there but if not....character is being built.  Sometimes I must admit....I think..".who cares about character"!     Loy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do Sherry.
  Love from your sister over the ocean,
  Jessica

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: sherry cole 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


    Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,
    I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.
    Thank you so much,
    Love and Blessings,
    Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Jessica 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


      How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 
      It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.
      Blessings to your Mum.
      And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.
      Blessings and Shalom,
      Jessica

      I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

        love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG. 
      Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/2d308e71/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Mon May  5 10:52:50 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:52:50 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>

Clyde and all,

I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that deals with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.? I would ask a couple of questions that need to be answered. This note will be part one as I want us to try and stay on topic better.? We tend to comment on the notes of others until one can barely associate the current content of a note with the original thought.

1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).? There is no doubt that this idea is present in the Christian writings.? Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.? The question is...what exactly does this mean?? I think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people have made a leap in their thinking.

Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.? My personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb was killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.? The lamb's death was associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter herbs.

So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between the death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua would in some way become associated with the firstborn son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?? Just a thought.

Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in general, but that can wait for another post properly labeled.? So again, if I have not been clear - What does the Passover lamb have to do with forgiveness of sins?? I am having trouble finding a connection.? Anyone know of something that I am missing?

Comments???

Shalom, Ross
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/62d93ed4/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 11:17:42 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:17:42 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <06b001c8aecb$8da1e290$a8e5a7b0$@com>

Hi Ross and All,

 

Even if a lamb WAS associated with atonement of sins, Yeshua wasn't a lamb -
he was a person, and human sacrifice was forbidden by YHWH.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:53 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Clyde and all,

I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that deals
with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.  I would ask a
couple of questions that need to be answered. This note will be part one as
I want us to try and stay on topic better.  We tend to comment on the notes
of others until one can barely associate the current content of a note with
the original thought.

1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death
was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).  There is no doubt that
this idea is present in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.
The question is...what exactly does this mean?  I think that largely due to
the words attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism
waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people
have made a leap in their thinking.

Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.  My
personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb was
killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death
was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with
atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was
associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn
son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter herbs.

So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between the
death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow
one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua would in some way
become associated with the firstborn son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?  Just
a thought.

Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in
general, but that can wait for another post properly labeled.  So again, if
I have not been clear - What does the Passover lamb have to do with
forgiveness of sins?  I am having trouble finding a connection.  Anyone know
of something that I am missing?

Comments???

Shalom, Ross

  _____  

Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/daf3e3e2/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 11:28:53 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:28:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com>
	<00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>

Hi Betty and All,

 

What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the
sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition.

 

No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.

 

This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today.

 

Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:


Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua,
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem.


 


However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations.


 


In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin?


 


And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just
show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On
the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that
atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard
questions are set before us.


 


Take care


 


CB     





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/4c407b0c/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 11:40:48 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:40:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <010101c8aec2$f27e6fc0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
Message-ID: <003601c8aece$c5ea45e0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Dear Jessica, Sherry and Loy,

 

I just now got on line to do some badly needed business that I need to tend
to, but when I saw your note(s), I just had to respond as I do so identify
with what you are going thru.I thought that I had responded to your initial
post about your mother(s) Jessica, and Loy, but perhaps it got 'lost' in all
the deluge! 

 

I wasn't aware of your mother's problems, Sherry.  My heart truly goes out
to all of you.  It is so hard to see our mothers like this.My mother died
last summer and it was very difficult to see how she deteriorated in both
body and mind the last few years of her life.but most especially the last
year.

 

She too lost her teeth numerous times, and we had to do a complete
search.the thing about it is that she would put them in the most unusual
places.  Of course, I have to confess that I have been known to loose my
glasses only to discover when I passed a mirror that they were on my face!!!

 

Mom also would ask the same question immediately after she had received a
response.  My youngest daughter, Amy, who is a nurse and one of the most
loving and compassionate people who ever walked this earth, would
continually tell me that the best way to handle it is to answer the question
each time she asked, as though she had never asked it.

 

She also would sometimes forget that Dad had died, and would call me up,
completely exasperated and in tears saying she hadn't heard from him and was
so worried.  I would drop everything and go over, explain to her and then
she would be okay, and apologize profusely for getting things "so mixed up."
I tried to always make light of it and tell her funny stories of how I was
always losing my keys, my glasses, etc., and make her smile.  

 

She would also have a tough time when I would have to change her or give her
a shower, etc., but I always reminded her of how many times she had done the
same things for me in the past, and how much I loved her, and that it was a
gift to be able to help her.after all she had done for me, these things were
very small in comparison.

 

I know how hard it is.I will pray for all of you.  When the end of this life
did come for her, I had the utmost blessing of being in her bed beside
her.she took her last breath cradled in my arms.I repeatedly sang the
Aaronic Benediction to her and the MiShebarach, which is a beautiful Hebrew
prayer for complete healing.which I think she received as G-d took her back
to him.  I also had the privilege of washing her body and annnointing her
body with sweet smelling oil and swaddling her like a baby in a beautiful
fresh sheet.  I wanted to be the last one to touch her precious body.even
though I knew it was just a shell and that her soul was no longer there.
Nevertheless, it was the shell that held her spirit which has been and
continues to be a blessing to me all the days of my life. It was something I
just had to do and all of the nurses and staff there at the Hospice center
where she died were very moved, and I was able to explain and give the glory
to HaShem, which was a beautiful blessing on top of everything else...

 

I have really got to go now, but just had to reach out to you all.

 

Much love and many blessings and prayers,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

P.S.  Dick has a beautiful poem about "Two Mothers".one that we grew up with
and then one with Alzheimer's.it is so beautiful.Dick if you are out there,
do you think you could find it and send it again.  I lost my copy after my
aol messed up several years ago.

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Sherry,  Bless your heart....mother does the same... I put her glasses and
hearing aids "ON" and a very few minutes they are gone.....somewhere?  who
knows.  so frustrating!!! but probably not nearly as frustrating as having
to wear them in the first place.   

I meant to address that last e-mail to jessica to you as well....so read it
as for you too.   Must get busy and get mother up....she would sleep the
entire day and almost never ever eat.....if I would let her.

 

Blessings to you, dear one.  I figure we will get our "reward" one day
either here or there but if not....character is being built.  Sometimes I
must admit....I think..".who cares about character"!     Loy

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand
what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early
Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets
things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't
recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very
confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding
their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must
watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do
Sherry.

Love from your sister over the ocean,

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: sherry cole <mailto:shcole1 at cox.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,

I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response
to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I
had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing
her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them)
My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled
teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early
stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to
return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled
and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.

Thank you so much,

Love and Blessings,

Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at
102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I
relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever
way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and
said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter,
she would one day be bathing me". 

It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to
return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies
and young children, before we can off into the world.

Blessings to your Mum.

And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is
ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all
that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these
wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

Blessings and Shalom,

Jessica

 

I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care
of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't
have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the
........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time
schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

 

  love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008
5:30 PM


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/a6f3a40c/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Mon May  5 11:40:37 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:40:37 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>

Hey Ross and all:
 
Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has  
no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all 
his  historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his  
resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is  
taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other 
words  taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did 
Yeshua  become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I 
think you  have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it 
on  through.
 
Take care
 
CB .  



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/be205ca8/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: rndavar at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:52:50 -0400
Size: 7996
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/be205ca8/attachment.mht 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 11:54:52 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:54:52 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <bce.25d5fd0d.355062dc@aol.com>
References: <bce.25d5fd0d.355062dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS3E25E1A3A9CCD4AA4345BBAD70@phx.gbl>

Hi Clyde,

There is much to be considered and discussed here.  I know that the Sin Sacrifice is discussed in Leviticus 4, but it is not for intentional sin.  It is only for unintentional sin.  "And the L-RD spoke to Moshe, saying, Speak to the children of Yisrael saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the 
L-RD concerning things which ought not to be done......." (Lev 4:1-2)

However, Leviticus 17:10-11 speaks of Blood Atonement for the soul:  "And whatever man there be of the house of Yisrael, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood:  then I will set my face against that person that eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.  For the life of the flesh is in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar
to make atonement for your souls:  for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul." 

Therefore, I can conceive of the blood of righteous men, of the martyrs of G-d, being associated with making atonement for the souls of G-d's people.  That's not what Leviticus says, of course, but I can see it symbolically:  that IF a righteous man is murdered, his blood, by extension of the words of Lev. 11, could be seen as an atonement for the souls of those who love HaSHem.  I don't, however, see that Lev. 17:11 intimates that the slain must then rise in order to affect that atonement, nor that the blood of men is in any way required.

In fact, from what I see, there are many Scriptures that negate that possibility.  Some examples of this would be:  

II Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the L-RD.'  And Nathan said to David, "The L-RD has already forgiven your sin; you shall not die."    

Psalm 51:16-19,  "Rescue me from blood-guilt, O G-d, G-d of my salvation.  My L-RD, open my lips, that my mouth may declare Your praise.  For you desire no offering, else I would give it, a burnt offering You do not favor.  The offerings of G-d are a broken spirit, a heart broken and crushed O G-d, You will not despise.

I Samuel 15:22,  "And Samuel said, Has the L-RD as much desire in burnt offering and peace-offerings, as in obeying the voice of the L-RD?  Behold, to obey is better than a peace-offering; to hearken is better than the fat of rams.

MICAH 6:6-8,  "WITH WHAT SHALL I COME BEFORE THE L-RD, BOW BEFORE THE MOST HIGH G-D?  SHALL I COME BEFORE HIM WITH BURNT OFFERINGS, WITH YEARLING CALVES?  WILL THE L-RD BE PLEASED WITH THOUSANDS OF RAMS, WITH MYRIAD STREAMS OF OIL?  SHALL I GIVE MY FIRSTBORN FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS, THE FRUIT OF MY BODY FOR THE SIN OF MY SOUL?  HE HAS TOLD YOU, O MAN, WHAT IS GOOD, AND WHAT THE L-RD DEMANDS OF YOU:  BUT TO DO JUSTICE, TO LOVE LOVING-KINDNESS, AND TO WALK HUMBLY WITH YOUR G-D."

HOSEA 14:2-3,  "RETURN O YISRAEL, TO THE L-RD YOUR G-D, FOR YOU HAVE STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.  TAKE WITH YOU WORDS AND RETURN TO THE L-RD.  SAY:  YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY AND TEACH US THE GOOD WAY,  AND LET US RENDER FOR BULLS THE OFFERING OF OUR LIPS.
  

There are many more Scriptures, but I will stop here for now.  I just don't see anything that would intimate to me a requirement of HaSHem that a man must die for the atonement of other men's souls, nor do I see anything that would further indicate an offering rising from the dead.  I believe that if that was what HaSHem required, He would have said it in no uncertain terms.  He has spelled out everything else He required in minute detail, so He most assuredly would have given great attention, and very explicit instruction concerning this most important precept.  

This is my understanding,

Pat   



From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:17 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.

However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations. 

In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 

And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.

Take care

CB     





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/815f1163/attachment.html 

From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 11:54:58 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:54:58 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>

On the Day of Atonement,  Was it not two Goats that were offered for 
the whole nation?  When a Lamb was used, what sin was it for?  What did 
a person bring with them to the Day of Atonement?  Did they have to 
bring a sacrifice and what was that?


Rick




On May 5, 2008, at 11:40 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

>
> Hey Ross and all:
> ?
> Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the 
> world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his 
> life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah 
> of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the 
> Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? 
> God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is 
> becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua become like our 
> Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have 
> hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on 
> through.
> ?
> Take care
> ?
> CB?. ?
>
>
>
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
> favorites at AOL Food.
> From: rndavar at aol.com
> Date: May 5, 2008 10:52:50 AM CDT
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
> Reply-To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
>
> Clyde and all,
>
>  I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that 
> deals with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.? I 
> would ask a couple of questions that need to be answered. This note 
> will be part one as I want us to try and stay on topic better.? We 
> tend to comment on the notes of others until one can barely associate 
> the current content of a note with the original thought.
>
>  1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his 
> death was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).? There is no 
> doubt that this idea is present in the Christian writings.? Namely 1 
> Corinthians 5:6-8.? The question is...what exactly does this mean?? I 
> think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist 
> when Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that 
> takes away the sins of the world", people have made a leap in their 
> thinking.
>
>  Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.? 
> My personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb 
> was killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover 
> lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that 
> matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.? The lamb's 
> death was associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of 
> God's firstborn son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter 
> herbs.
>
>  So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between 
> the death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be 
> that somehow one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua 
> would in some way become associated with the firstborn son (1 
> Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?? Just a thought.
>
>  Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of 
> blood in general, but that can wait for another post properly 
> labeled.? So again, if I have not been clear - What does the Passover 
> lamb have to do with forgiveness of sins?? I am having trouble finding 
> a connection.? Anyone know of something that I am missing?
>
>  Comments???
>
>  Shalom, Ross
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 4764 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/52bb8bfa/attachment.bin 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 12:19:28 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:19:28 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050520081719.27040.481F41A0000447CA000069A022216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I think we may also need to explore what these references really signify - specifically, what is meant by 'ransom' here?

And the ransomed of HaSHeM shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. Isaiah 35:10

For HaSHeM hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. Jeremiah 31:11

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:27-28

For there is one G-d, and one mediator between G-d and men, the man MaShiaCH Yeshua; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/fbb6f242/attachment.html 

From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net  Mon May  5 12:23:19 2008
From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:23:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS3E25E1A3A9CCD4AA4345BBAD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <323923.95824.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Shalom TO ALL,
   
    Eze 18:1-18 showed me something years ago.  I'll just write vs. 2-5:  (KJV)
      What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the lan of Israel saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
      As I live, saith the L-rd G-d, ye shall not have (occasion) any more to use this proverb in Israel.
      Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
     But if ye be just, and do that wich is lawful and right......that soul shall live.
   
     Simply...we are all responsible for our own bank account.
     No one else can "pay for our sins", according to HaShem
   
  Blessings,
  Linda
   
      

Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
      Hi Clyde,
   
  There is much to be considered and discussed here.  I know that the Sin Sacrifice is discussed in Leviticus 4, but it is not for intentional sin.  It is only for unintentional sin.  "And the L-RD spoke to Moshe, saying, Speak to the children of Yisrael saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the 
  L-RD concerning things which ought not to be done......." (Lev 4:1-2)
   
  However, Leviticus 17:10-11 speaks of Blood Atonement for the soul:  "And whatever man there be of the house of Yisrael, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood:  then I will set my face against that person that eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.  For the life of the flesh is in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar
  to make atonement for your souls:  for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul." 
   
  Therefore, I can conceive of the blood of righteous men, of the martyrs of G-d, being associated with making atonement for the souls of G-d's people.  That's not what Leviticus says, of course, but I can see it symbolically:  that IF a righteous man is murdered, his blood, by extension of the words of Lev. 11, could be seen as an atonement for the souls of those who love HaSHem.  I don't, however, see that Lev. 17:11 intimates that the slain must then rise in order to affect that atonement, nor that the blood of men is in any way required.
   
  In fact, from what I see, there are many Scriptures that negate that possibility.  Some examples of this would be:  
   
  II Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the L-RD.'  And Nathan said to David, "The L-RD has already forgiven your sin; you shall not die."    
   
  Psalm 51:16-19,  "Rescue me from blood-guilt, O G-d, G-d of my salvation.  My L-RD, open my lips, that my mouth may declare Your praise.  For you desire no offering, else I would give it, a burnt offering You do not favor.  The offerings of G-d are a broken spirit, a heart broken and crushed O G-d, You will not despise.
   
  I Samuel 15:22,  "And Samuel said, Has the L-RD as much desire in burnt offering and peace-offerings, as in obeying the voice of the L-RD?  Behold, to obey is better than a peace-offering; to hearken is better than the fat of rams.
   
  MICAH 6:6-8,  "WITH WHAT SHALL I COME BEFORE THE L-RD, BOW BEFORE THE MOST HIGH G-D?  SHALL I COME BEFORE HIM WITH BURNT OFFERINGS, WITH YEARLING CALVES?  WILL THE L-RD BE PLEASED WITH THOUSANDS OF RAMS, WITH MYRIAD STREAMS OF OIL?  SHALL I GIVE MY FIRSTBORN FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS, THE FRUIT OF MY BODY FOR THE SIN OF MY SOUL?  HE HAS TOLD YOU, O MAN, WHAT IS GOOD, AND WHAT THE L-RD DEMANDS OF YOU:  BUT TO DO JUSTICE, TO LOVE LOVING-KINDNESS, AND TO WALK HUMBLY WITH YOUR G-D."
   
  HOSEA 14:2-3,  "RETURN O YISRAEL, TO THE L-RD YOUR G-D, FOR YOU HAVE STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.  TAKE WITH YOU WORDS AND RETURN TO THE L-RD.  SAY:  YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY AND TEACH US THE GOOD WAY,  AND LET US RENDER FOR BULLS THE OFFERING OF OUR LIPS.
    
   
  There are many more Scriptures, but I will stop here for now.  I just don't see anything that would intimate to me a requirement of HaSHem that a man must die for the atonement of other men's souls, nor do I see anything that would further indicate an offering rising from the dead.  I believe that if that was what HaSHem required, He would have said it in no uncertain terms.  He has spelled out everything else He required in minute detail, so He most assuredly would have given great attention, and very explicit instruction concerning this most important precept.  
   
  This is my understanding,
   
  Pat   
   
    

    From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:17 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  

  Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and
 when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.
   
  However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations. 
   
  In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 
   
  And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.
   
  Take care
   
  CB     



    
---------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
    
---------------------------------
    
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________



  Shalom to all!  Linda

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/b1786ef4/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Mon May  5 12:36:32 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 13:36:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
In-Reply-To: <00b501c8aebd$7580dad0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <00b501c8aebd$7580dad0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <16EDD984-22D6-4DCC-96BE-9679F0D19AE8@earthlink.net>

I put my review of Wilson up today, on my jesusdynasty.com/blog.  It  
is truly a very very important book for those interested in the  
fundamental question of Christian Origins, Jesus, James, and Paul,  
etc. BTW, even though I agree largely with Wilson I have my own take  
on Paul, which will be in my next book, and I do think he was totally  
"sincere," not a charlatan or anything of that sort.

James

>
>
> --- On Sun, 5/4/08, YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote:
>
> From: YoungBarzel at aol.com <YoungBarzel at aol.com>
> Subject: [Dialogue] A book you MUST read....
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Date: Sunday, May 4, 2008, 9:14 PM
> Shalom L'Kulchem,
>
>     I've mentioned this book before - How Jesus Became Christian by  
> Professor Barrie Wilson, and I know that James has mentioned that he  
> wants to write a review of it....but I felt I had to mention it  
> again.  There a number of people who have asked a number of very  
> valid questions in recent discussions about the role of a Messiah,  
> and how the NT matches up, or strays, from the Tanach.
>
>     I would STRONGLY urge anyone with an open, inquiring mind to  
> read this book....I've included the Publisher's Weekly piece on  
> it...if anyone wants more details, please give me a shout.  But this  
> is a MUST READ.
>                 Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah
>
> Editorial Reviews
> From Publishers Weekly
> Of the making of Jesus books there appears to be no end. Although  
> Wilson, professor of religious studies at Toronto's York University,  
> treads familiar ground already covered by Geza Vermes in Jesus the  
> Jew and Amy-Jill Levine in The Misunderstood Jew, he provokes new  
> thoughts about Jesus' identity. Taking up where Robert Eisenman left  
> off in James, the Brother of Jesus, Wilson calls his argument the  
> Jesus Cover-Up Thesis and claims that the religion of Paul displaced  
> the teachings of Jesus so that Paul's preaching about a divine  
> gentile Christ covered up the human Jewish Jesus. Wilson helpfully  
> surveys the political, social and religious contexts of ancient  
> Palestine, demonstrating that the religion of James, the brother of  
> Jesus, was much closer to the religious practice of Jesus himself,  
> but that the followers of Paul suppressed Jesus' teachings in favor  
> of their own leader. Wilson challenges the veracity of the book of  
> Acts, arguing that the followers of Paul created these tales to  
> support the heroic character of their founder in his quest to  
> establish a new religion. Wilson's instructive book introduces  
> important questions about early Christianity for those unfamiliar  
> with the debates about the historical Jesus. (Mar.)
> Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier  
> Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
>
>
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family  
> favorites at AOL Food.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  
> Try it now.
> _______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/2cbac517/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 12:43:11 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 13:43:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <323923.95824.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CA7CEE9F0BBD4E-10D8-1857@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com>

Hi Linda - 

???? Tough to squeeze in a response here, things are flying fast and furious...but I think you make a HUGELY important point; we are responsible for what we do - NO ONE ELSE can "pay for our sins," or literally, "bleed on our behalf."? And as I think it was Patty who said earlier, in any caase, we don't believe in human sacrifice...

???????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Rudolph Ricciardi <rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



Shalom TO ALL,

?

? Eze 18:1-18 showed me something years ago.? I'll just write vs. 2-5:? (KJV)

??? What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the lan of Israel saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

??? As I live, saith the L-rd G-d, ye shall not have (occasion) any more to use this proverb in Israel.

??? Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

?? But if ye be just, and do that wich is lawful and right......that soul shall live.

?

?? Simply...we are all responsible for our own bank account.

?? No one else can "pay for our sins", according to HaShem

?

Blessings,

Linda

?

??? 

Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


Hi Clyde,

?

There is much to be considered and discussed here.? I know that the Sin Sacrifice?is discussed in?Leviticus 4, but it is not for intentional sin.? It is only for unintentional sin.? "And the L-RD spoke to Moshe, saying, Speak to the children of Yisrael saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the 

L-RD concerning things which?ought not to be done......." (Lev 4:1-2)

?

However, Leviticus 17:10-11 speaks of Blood Atonement for the soul:? "And whatever man there be of the house of Yisrael, or of the strangers?that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood:? then I will set my face against that person that eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.? For the life of the flesh is in the blood:? and I have given it to you upon the altar

to make atonement for your souls:? for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul."?

?

Therefore, I can conceive of the blood of righteous men, of the martyrs of G-d, being associated with making atonement for the souls of G-d's people.? That's not what Leviticus says, of course, but I can see it symbolically:? that IF a righteous man is murdered, his blood, by extension of the words of Lev. 11, could be seen as an atonement for the souls of those who love HaSHem.? I don't, however, see that?Lev. 17:11?intimates that the slain must then rise?in order to affect?that atonement, nor that the blood of men is in any way required.

?

In fact, from what I see,?there are many?Scriptures that negate that possibility.? Some examples of this would be:??

?

II Samuel 12:13, "So David said to?Nathan, 'I have sinned against the L-RD.'? And Nathan said to David, "The L-RD has already forgiven your sin; you shall not die."????

?

Psalm 51:16-19,? "Rescue me from blood-guilt, O G-d, G-d of my salvation.? My L-RD, open my lips, that my mouth may declare Your praise.? For you desire no offering, else I would give it, a burnt offering You do not favor.? The offerings of G-d are a broken spirit, a heart broken and crushed O G-d, You will not despise.

?

I Samuel 15:22,? "And Samuel said, Has the L-RD as much desire in burnt offering and peace-offerings, as in obeying the voice of the L-RD?? Behold, to obey is better than a peace-offering; to hearken is better than the fat of rams.

?

MICAH 6:6-8,? "WITH WHAT SHALL I COME BEFORE THE L-RD, BOW BEFORE THE MOST HIGH G-D?? SHALL I COME BEFORE HIM WITH BURNT OFFERINGS, WITH YEARLING CALVES?? WILL THE L-RD BE PLEASED WITH THOUSANDS OF RAMS, WITH MYRIAD STREAMS OF OIL?? SHALL I GIVE MY FIRSTBORN FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS, THE FRUIT OF MY BODY FOR THE SIN OF MY SOUL?? HE HAS TOLD YOU, O MAN, WHAT IS GOOD, AND WHAT THE L-RD DEMANDS OF YOU:? BUT TO DO JUSTICE, TO LOVE LOVING-KINDNESS, AND TO WALK?HUMBLY WITH YOUR G-D."

?

HOSEA 14:2-3,? "RETURN O YISRAEL, TO THE L-RD YOUR G-D, FOR YOU HAVE STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.? TAKE WITH YOU WORDS AND RETURN TO THE L-RD.? SAY:? YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY AND TEACH US THE GOOD WAY,? AND LET US RENDER FOR BULLS THE OFFERING OF OUR LIPS.

? 

?

There are many more Scriptures, but I will stop here for now.? I just don't see anything that would intimate to me a requirement of HaSHem that a man must die for the atonement of other men's souls, nor do I see anything that would further indicate an offering rising from the dead.? I believe that if that was what HaSHem required, He would have said it in no uncertain terms.? He has spelled out everything else He required in minute detail, so He most assuredly would have given great attention, and very explicit instruction concerning this most?important precept.??

?

This is my understanding,

?

Pat???

?






From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:17 AM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view






Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not?God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.

?

However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think?determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance?for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua?had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the?translations. 

?

In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing? ?When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 

?

And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach?that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.

?

Take care

?

CB?????




Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________







Shalom to all!? Linda




_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3b9c1ed5/attachment.html 

From rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net  Mon May  5 13:42:33 2008
From: rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net (Rudolph Ricciardi)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:42:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7CEE9F0BBD4E-10D8-1857@webmail-de07.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <936694.57391.qm@web83312.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Hi there, Hanoch,
   
    Good to hear from you. Yes, we make our own choices.  HaShem simply sets choices before us:
   
          Deut 30:19   I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore CHOOSE life that  you and your seed may live.
                             It's all about CHOICES.
                            We don't get a "license to sin".  Nobody said it would be easy, and certainly sin cannot be forgiven without the HEARTFELT REPENTENCE of the sinner.  There is no "blood" involved in the equation.
   
              We who came the Christian route have so much to "unlearn" as well as learn. I've been Jewish for 10 years, so it all looks so simple to me and it makes more sense actually, but for those still on a quest, I say, seek HaShem with all of your heart and He will set you free.   If we ask the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for TRUTH,(at any cost) with a sincere heart, HaShem is faithful.  He has ALL of the answers, and will not lead His own astray, Blessed be His Name in all the earth!!
   
  Shalom and pray all is well with you,
  Linda/Hadassah
  

youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:
  Hi Linda - 

     Tough to squeeze in a response here, things are flying fast and furious...but I think you make a HUGELY important point; we are responsible for what we do - NO ONE ELSE can "pay for our sins," or literally, "bleed on our behalf."  And as I think it was Patty who said earlier, in any caase, we don't believe in human sacrifice...

                   Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Rudolph Ricciardi <rudolphricciardi at sbcglobal.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

    Shalom TO ALL,
   
    Eze 18:1-18 showed me something years ago.  I'll just write vs. 2-5:  (KJV)
      What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the lan of Israel saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
      As I live, saith the L-rd G-d, ye shall not have (occasion) any more to use this proverb in Israel.
      Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
     But if ye be just, and do that wich is lawful and right......that soul shall live.
   
     Simply...we are all responsible for our own bank account.
     No one else can "pay for our sins", according to HaShem
   
  Blessings,
  Linda
   
      

Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Clyde,
   
  There is much to be considered and discussed here.  I know that the Sin Sacrifice is discussed in Leviticus 4, but it is not for intentional sin.  It is only for unintentional sin.  "And the L-RD spoke to Moshe, saying, Speak to the children of Yisrael saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the 
  L-RD concerning things which ought not to be done......." (Lev 4:1-2)
   
  However, Leviticus 17:10-11 speaks of Blood Atonement for the soul:  "And whatever man there be of the house of Yisrael, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eats any manner of blood:  then I will set my face against that person that eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.  For the life of the flesh is in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar
  to make atonement for your souls:  for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul." 
   
  Therefore, I can conceive of the blood of righteous men, of the martyrs of G-d, being associated with making atonement for the souls of G-d's people.  That's not what Leviticus says, of course, but I can see it symbolically:  that IF a righteous man is murdered, his blood, by extension of the words of Lev. 11, could be seen as an atonement for the souls of those who love HaSHem.  I don't, however, see that Lev. 17:11 intimates that the slain must then rise in order to affect that atonement, nor that the blood of men is in any way required.
   
  In fact, from what I see, there are many Scriptures that negate that possibility.  Some examples of this would be:  
   
  II Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the L-RD.'  And Nathan said to David, "The L-RD has already forgiven your sin; you shall not die."    
   
  Psalm 51:16-19,  "Rescue me from blood-guilt, O G-d, G-d of my salvation.  My L-RD, open my lips, that my mouth may declare Your praise.  For you desire no offering, else I would give it, a burnt offering You do not favor.  The offerings of G-d are a broken spirit, a heart broken and crushed O G-d, You will not despise.
   
  I Samuel 15:22,  "And Samuel said, Has the L-RD as much desire in burnt offering and peace-offerings, as in obeying the voice of the L-RD?  Behold, to obey is better than a peace-offering; to hearken is better than the fat of rams.
   
  MICAH 6:6-8,  "WITH WHAT SHALL I COME BEFORE THE L-RD, BOW BEFORE THE MOST HIGH G-D?  SHALL I COME BEFORE HIM WITH BURNT OFFERINGS, WITH YEARLING CALVES?  WILL THE L-RD BE PLEASED WITH THOUSANDS OF RAMS, WITH MYRIAD STREAMS OF OIL?  SHALL I GIVE MY FIRSTBORN FOR MY TRANSGRESSIONS, THE FRUIT OF MY BODY FOR THE SIN OF MY SOUL?  HE HAS TOLD YOU, O MAN, WHAT IS GOOD, AND WHAT THE L-RD DEMANDS OF YOU:  BUT TO DO JUSTICE, TO LOVE LOVING-KINDNESS, AND TO WALK HUMBLY WITH YOUR G-D."
   
  HOSEA 14:2-3,  "RETURN O YISRAEL, TO THE L-RD YOUR G-D, FOR YOU HAVE STUMBLED IN YOUR INIQUITY.  TAKE WITH YOU WORDS AND RETURN TO THE L-RD.  SAY:  YOU SHALL FORGIVE ALL INIQUITY AND TEACH US THE GOOD WAY,  AND LET US RENDER FOR BULLS THE OFFERING OF OUR LIPS.
    
   
  There are many more Scriptures, but I will stop here for now.  I just don't see anything that would intimate to me a requirement of HaSHem that a man must die for the atonement of other men's souls, nor do I see anything that would further indicate an offering rising from the dead.  I believe that if that was what HaSHem required, He would have said it in no uncertain terms.  He has spelled out everything else He required in minute detail, so He most assuredly would have given great attention, and very explicit instruction concerning this most important precept.  
   
  This is my understanding,
   
  Pat   
   
    

    From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:17 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  

  Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and
 when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.
   
  However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations. 
   
  In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 
   
  And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.
   
  Take care
   
  CB     



    
---------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
    
---------------------------------
    
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________




    Shalom to all!  Linda


  
_______________________________________________  

    
---------------------------------
  Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
_______________________________________________



  Shalom to all!  Linda

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/2b743999/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Mon May  5 14:05:24 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 12:05:24 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness 
In-Reply-To: <06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
References: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com>
	<00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
	<06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
Message-ID: <200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/1b662b9a/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 15:06:26 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:06:26 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness 
In-Reply-To: <200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com>	<00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>	<06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
	<200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <074001c8aeeb$82d42d30$887c8790$@com>

Thanks for this Steve. A seldom talked about Covenant is the Hosea Covenant
between Man and Beast: Hosea 10:18 And in that day will I make a covenant
for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and
with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the
sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down
safely. 

 

And also in Isaiah 11

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with
the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a
little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their
young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the
ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned
child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor
destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the
knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea.

 

When will this Covenant come to pass? Perhaps, like the lion still kills and
eats meat, the animal sacrificial system is to be in place as well, until
the Hosea Covenant takes effect. 

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness 

 

Friends, 

The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a
conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and
events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it
will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot
of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance
is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This
seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a
comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent
when one changes from a sinful behavior.

Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At
first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability
to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the
sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of
reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again
and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they
did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29,
29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of
reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but
gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the
sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death
was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with
atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe
passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably
so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the
passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses
in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in
Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the
blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do
not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because
they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their
sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a
specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for
all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for
many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at
face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections
between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of
this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the
proper pattern. 

We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8,
Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to
make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the
Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then,
then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We
will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be
obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will
still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be
there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine
holds true? 

 We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.
Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be
necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia,
North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve
as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."
Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as
protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to
approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any
time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the
queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's
heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's
sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized
by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple
times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is
that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives
of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get
there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we
can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

Steve

At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Betty and All,
 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the
sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition.
 
No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
 
This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today.
 
Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength!
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua,
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem.

 



However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations.



 



In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin?



 



And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just
show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On
the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that
atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard
questions are set before us.



 



Take care



 



CB     




_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/5186e5c7/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 15:37:37 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 20:37:37 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Concerning Forgiving of Sins
Message-ID: <050520082037.27042.481F7010000E4E04000069A222218675169B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

>From Psalms 32:
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom HaSHeM imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto HaSHeM; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/4b1c1066/attachment.html 

From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Mon May  5 15:44:41 2008
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:44:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <001801c8ae40$b1cde5a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <7A529B6C6DDE4EFE9C226543DF762164@DickLPC>

          There is nothing wrong with praying to "The G-d of Yeshua" either. 
      Love ya Betty. Glad U R back.    Dick L
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty Givin 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:43 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Shalom all!          

   

  I.Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet' and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me peace.

   

  I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine upon us, each and every one!

   

  Shavua tov and blessings to all,

   

  Betty/Elisheva                      

                                                

   

   

   

   

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

   

  Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal' intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I am trying to avoid.

   

  So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to me.

   

  But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.  The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!  It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

   

  SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity (the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

   

  There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

   

  --
  John C. 

  "Be excellent to each other!" 
  Bill and Ted 

   

    -------------- Original message from James Tabor <jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

    One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b: That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

     

    I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea, especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

     

    Good week,

     

    James

     

     

    On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:



    I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.  It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like this;

     

    There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

     

    1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an intercessor (King).

    2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the question of why Messiah would need to die)?

    3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

     

    The thought that follows is new to me.  

     

    It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh) perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national" figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation (m ore research).

     

    That's all I got right now.  Comments?

     

    --
    John C. 

    "Be excellent to each other!" 
    Bill and Ted 

     

      -------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 




      Boker tov L'Kulchem,

       

          I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

       

          PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, ' BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.  It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am coming from....

       

          Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

       

      What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

      1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

      2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

      3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

      4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

       

      5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the Davidic Dynasty).

       

      6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


          The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

              Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

       

              B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
      Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

          

          






--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

    _______________________________________________

     



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/b6f6e83e/attachment.html 

From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Mon May  5 16:24:12 2008
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:24:12 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>

"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L
  .Subject: . The Lamb


  Hey Ross and all:

  Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

  Take care

  CB .  





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/ec61645e/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 16:24:42 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:24:42 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <7A529B6C6DDE4EFE9C226543DF762164@DickLPC>
Message-ID: <001f01c8aef6$6f29d720$643c66c9@bettygivin>

That's true, Dick.Yeshua's G-d was no doubt the One G-d of Israel!  And
thanks for the welcome, it is good to be back!  Love you too, Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:45 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

          There is nothing wrong with praying to "The G-d of Yeshua" either.


      Love ya Betty. Glad U R back.    Dick L

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Betty Givin <mailto:bkgivin at charter.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:43 PM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Shalom all!          

 

I.Years ago when I was so confused and trying to sort everything out, I got
some very good advice which I have followed to this day.go in your 'closet'
and kneel down and pray to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."  I did just
that and to this day I continue to follow that advice, and it gives me
peace.

 

I still don't have all the answers, but I believe that I know who the Savior
and the Redeemer is, and that is HaShem, and for me, He is the focus and
source of light and life!   May He show us the glow of His face and shine
upon us, each and every one!

 

Shavua tov and blessings to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva                      

                                             

 

 

 

 

 

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 1:44 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Exactly James!  My read on Isaiah 59:16-20 is that YHVH becomes intercessor
and redeemer for the nation of Israel against His enemies who are afflicting
them becasue they are trying to return to Him.  This is not a 'personal'
intercessor.  It could be if one were to spiritualize it but that is what I
am trying to avoid.

 

So the distinction I am trying to define here is Messiah as an intercessor
for the Nation, not for the person.  This distinction makes perfect sense to
me.

 

But as you can tell from some of the subsequent emails, even the mention of
the second coming of YHVH raises more questions along the line of "who" is
Messiah.  The conclusion I am slowly coming to is that the whole idea of
Messiah is not anywhere near as important as I had been taught to believe.
The problem begins when Messiah (the helper figure) is understood to BE G-d!
It is compounded when the importance of Messiah (even if it is understood
not to be G-d) overshadows YHVH Himself.

 

SO, it seems that the point of divisiveness between Judah and Christianity
(the importance of Messiah) may be something blown way out of proportion by
both parties when compared to the intent and portrayal given in the Tanakh.

 

There I said it, bring out the pitchforks and torches!

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from James Tabor
<jamesdtabor at earthlink.net>: -------------- 

One interesting text on this subject John is Isaiah 59:16-20 where YHVH
himself becomes the intercessor and the Redeemer. Remember those
declarations that I highlighted in my Charlotte talk from Isaiah 49:26b:
That ALL Flesh may know that I am YHVH your SAVIOR (this is Moshia' not
Moshiach), and your REDEEmer, the Mighty One of Jacob. 

 

I agree with your sentiments here, very strongly so. The "Messiah" idea,
especially the Davidic, has been over-emphasized in both Christianity and
Judaism far more than the Prophets would allow. Rather than asking about the
coming of the Messiah we should perhaps turn our focus to the "2nd Coming of
YHVH" spoken of so many times in the Prophets.  I cover this rather
extensively in my book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, a new version of which
should be out soon. The Davidic messiah figure is a "helper" who assists the
Main One to carry out things, he is an executive in that sense, but
ultimately, as you know, only YHVH is King of Israel.

 

Good week,

 

James

 

 

On May 4, 2008, at 12:47 AM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:

I had an interesting thought today.  Was there when I woke up this morning.
It's not fully hatched yet and I have some research to do but it goes like
this;

 

There is really a heirarchy of three important questions,

 

1.)  Why must there be a Messiah?  More accurately, why must there be an
intercessor (King).

2.)  What is Messiah supposed to accomplish (this question embodies the
question of why Messiah would need to die)?

3.)  Who is (will be) Messiah.

 

The thought that follows is new to me.  

 

It seems that the line that got crossed between Judism and Christianity in
terms of the "intercessor" role is that in Christianity the intercessor
became a personal one.  I think we can all (Jew and Christian) agree that
G-d expects/desires/demands that we each have a personal relationship with
Him.  The stumbling block is that it makes no sense from a Torah perspective
that one would NEED an intercessor (this is the part I need to research
more) to have a personal relationship with G-d.  The Torah (Tanakh)
perspective, from my studies, indicates that Messiah is more of a "national"
figure, an intercessor between the "nation" of Judah/Israel and G-d, not an
individual intercessor.  So what seems to me to be an intercessory figure
for the nation of Judah/Israel, became a "Savior" figure in the Christian
doctrine.  And as of this time I am in no way convinced that this doctrine
was what was being taught by the leaders of the first century congregation
(m ore research).

 

That's all I got right now.  Comments?

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from YoungBarzel at aol.com: -------------- 





Boker tov L'Kulchem,

 

    I think John made an excellent point last evening (he always does!), as
it became clear that based on our respective upbringings, and their
associated religious traditions, when we say "Messiah," we are not always
defining it the same way.  Below are some quick points (taken from AISH.com
and an article that Rav Richman wrote a number of years ago since I have to
rush off to work ("I'm late, I'm late, I'm, positively late...").  

 

    PLEASE NOTE:  These are part of the traditional Jewish understanding of
the role of the Messiah ('Mashiach').  Which simply means, 'anointed one, '
BTW...  I am not trying to upset anyone, disagree with anyone, insult
anyone, or do anything other then show the background of MY understanding of
the Mashiach, which is based, obviously on the "traditional" Jewish view.
It is VERY important that y'all understand that. This is just where I am
coming from....

 

    Excerpted from various websites since I'm out of time:

 

What is the Messiah (Mashiach) supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:

1) Oversea the rebuilding of Jerusalem and build the Third Temple (if it's
not done already) (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

2) Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

3) Usher in an era of world peace (which I had learned from Rabbi David
Aaron of Isralight, that he would  'negotiate world peace'), and end all
hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not
lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah
2:4)

4) Spread universal knowledge of the G-d of Israel, and His teachings, which
will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world
-- on that day, G-d will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

 

5) Restore the royal dynasty to the descendants of David (which is the
Rabbinical understanding of 'restoring the fallen Sukkah of David - the
Davidic Dynasty).

 

6) To reestablish the Sanhedrin, restore the sacrificial system (there are
some who disagree on that point), as well as the Sabbatical year and Jubilee


    The messiah will be a regular human being, not a resurrected one, born
naturally to husband and wife. He is not to be a god, nor a man born of
supernatural or virgin birth. The very idea that G-d would take on human
form is repulsive to Jews because it contradicts our concept of G-d as being
above and beyond the limitations of the human body and situation. Jews
believe that G-d ALONE is to be worshipped, and not a being who is His
creation, be he angel, saint, or even the messiah himself.

        Looking forward to our continued dialogue,

 

        B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,

                 Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...

    

    

 


  _____  


Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/781cdce0/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 16:29:26 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:29:26 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
Message-ID: <076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>

Hi, but wasn't Israel was scattered during that time among the "nations"?
And Yeshua said he came first for the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel". 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the
nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah,
Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .
When he said, "Drink of my blood"

he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L

.Subject: . The Lamb

 

Hey Ross and all:

 

Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has
no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all
his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his
resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin
is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In
other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how
did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God.
Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we
must work it on through.

 

Take care

 

CB .  






  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/4c8bf40e/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 16:42:44 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:42:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
Message-ID: <8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom to all - 

???? I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?? If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.? Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.??

????? Thoughts, comments??
???????????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb




Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 

?

Patty

?



From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb



?


"Of the World" to me means the Nations.? As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??? The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua? kept it for them.?? It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .?? When?he said, "Drink of my blood"



he means , "learn of my life".? Just some more thoughts I have????? Dick L




.Subject:?. The Lamb



?



Hey Ross and all:



?



Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.



?



Take care



?



CB?. ?









Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.




_______________________________________________





_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/61052f3f/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Mon May  5 16:54:09 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:54:09 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com><8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <905451919-1210024438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-380446826-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hanoch,

Are you trying to draw me out here? You are well aware of my teaching on this subject:)

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com

Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:42:44 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Shalom to all - 
 
 ???? I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?? If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.? Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.??
 
 ????? Thoughts, comments??
 ???????????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb
 
 
 
 
Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 
? 
Patty 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Dick L
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb 
? 
 
"Of the World" to me means the Nations.? As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??? The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua? kept it for them.?? It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .?? When?he said, "Drink of my blood" 
 
he means , "learn of my life".? Just some more thoughts I have????? Dick L 
 
.Subject:?. The Lamb 
 
? 
 
Hey Ross and all: 
 
? 
 
Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through. 
 
? 
 
Take care 
 
? 
 
CB?. ? 

 
 
 
 
----------------
 
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . 
 
----------------
 
_______________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________ 

----------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________


From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 17:14:19 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:14:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <905451919-1210024438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-380446826-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com><8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<905451919-1210024438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-380446826-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <079a01c8aefd$5f2b95f0$1d82c1d0$@com>

Hey there Ross! 

How are you? Did you write a paper on this?

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:54 PM
To: Dialogue List
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

Hanoch,

Are you trying to draw me out here? You are well aware of my teaching on this subject:)

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com

Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:42:44 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Shalom to all - 
 
      I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  
 
       Thoughts, comments??
                        Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb
 
 
 
 
Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 
  
Patty 
  
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Dick L
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb 
  
 
"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood" 
 
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L 
 
.Subject: . The Lamb 
 
  
 
Hey Ross and all: 
 
  
 
Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through. 
 
  
 
Take care 
 
  
 
CB .   

 
 
 
 
----------------
 
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . 
 
----------------
 
_______________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________ 

----------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________





From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 17:18:53 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:18:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>

Hanoch,  That's the way I understand what Yeshua came for.  He 
reportedly said that he was sent for the Lost Sheep of the House of 
Israel.  So does everything he did or was to do based on that Context.  
If that was what he was sent for, then he stayed in that context.  Just 
my two cents.

Rick



On May 5, 2008, at 4:42 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:

> Shalom to all -
>
>  ???? I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the 
> "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?? If that's the 
> case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of 
> time when the Romans tortured and killed him.? Or, am I just so "Lost 
> Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.??
>
>  ????? Thoughts, comments??
>  ???????????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
>  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>  Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
>  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb
>
> Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the 
> ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the 
> House of Israel?.
> ?
> Patty
> ?
> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org 
> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
> ?
> "Of the World" to me means the Nations.? As Israel was separated from 
> the nations it could not mean them ??? The Nations who did not have 
> the Torah, Yeshua? kept it for them.?? It is said, " that Blood is the 
> life thereof" .?? When?he said, "Drink of my blood"
> he means , "learn of my life".? Just some more thoughts I have????? 
> Dick L
>> .Subject:?. The Lamb
>> ?
>> Hey Ross and all:
>> ?
>> Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the 
>> world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his 
>> life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah 
>> of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of 
>> the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made 
>> just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, 
>> is becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua become like 
>> our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you 
>> have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work 
>> it on through.
>> ?
>> Take care
>> ?
>> CB?. ?
>>
>>
>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
>> favorites at AOL Food.
>> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>
> Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
> _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 4828 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/c46cc84a/attachment.bin 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 17:24:39 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:24:39 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Arabs Drove out the Palestinians!!!
Message-ID: <005f01c8aefe$cf3ee170$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Below are recent excerpts from the IRIS Blog. For the
full stories and links to other articles as well please
visit:

http://www.iris.org.il/blog.html
<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=O0.dZ&m=1g1e9lzrZQA4k9&b=oetZN3wzLuzJB2X1f
2v9yw> 
Working at home today.this just came in, and thought it was worth the read.
BTW, those of you who have not yet checked out the "Animated map of the
Middle East that I sent several days ago might want to take a look.it is
very interesting! It covers 3000 years in 90 seconds!  I know there has been
an absolute 'deluge' of posts, and I thought it might have gotten lost, so
am sending you the link again. .very cool!
 <http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf>
http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/EMPIRE17.swf

 

       Recently-Opened Archives Prove
       Arabs Drove Out Palestinians

Here is an absolute must-read about how the Arabs
really came to leave Israel during the formation of the
state. It's a rare article that is worthwhile no matter
how extensive your background.

In this case the adage that "there are two sides to
every story and the truth is somewhere in the middle"
is dead wrong:

During the past decade or so, the actual elimination of
the Jewish state has become a cause celebre among
many of these educated Westerners. The "one-state
solution," as it is called, is a euphemistic formula
proposing the replacement of Israel by a state,
theoretically comprising the whole of historic
Palestine, in which Jews will be reduced to the status
of a permanent minority. Only this, it is said, can
expiate the "original sin" of Israel's founding, an act
built (in the words of one critic) "on the ruins of
Arab Palestine" and achieved through the deliberate and
aggressive dispossession of its native population.

This claim of premeditated dispossession and the
consequent creation of the longstanding Palestinian
"refugee problem" forms, indeed, the central plank in
the bill of particulars pressed by Israel's alleged
victims and their Western supporters. It is a charge
that has hardly gone undisputed. As early as the mid-
1950's, the eminent American historian J.C. Hurewitz
undertook a systematic refutation, and his findings
were abundantly confirmed by later generations of
scholars and writers. Even Benny Morris, the most
influential of Israel's revisionist "new historians,"
and one who went out of his way to establish the case
for Israel's "original sin," grudgingly stipulated that
there was no "design" to displace the Palestinian
Arabs.

The recent declassification of millions of documents
from the period of the British Mandate (1920-1948) and
Israel's early days, documents untapped by earlier
generations of writers and ignored or distorted by the
"new historians," paint a much more definitive picture
of the historical record. They reveal that the claim of
dispossession is not only completely unfounded but the
inverse of the truth.

 

Shalom to all,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/9a5912ed/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 17:26:44 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 22:26:44 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <050520081719.27040.481F41A0000447CA000069A022216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>
	<050520081719.27040.481F41A0000447CA000069A022216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <050520082226.4319.481F89A40007E851000010DF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

OK... so I guess I'll start. Please note that Yeshua said the son of man would "give his life a ransom for many". He did NOT say for ALL. I think this point can not be overlooked or understated. In the context of his mission (to the lost sheep), I think this applies only to them - "to seek and SAVE that which was lost" (i.e., the sheep he was sent to). He went so far as to tell the Canaanite woman "It is not meet (fitting, proper) to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs." Only her great faith finally moved him to comply with her request. (re. Matthew 15:22-28)

Paul seemingly expanded this in his letter to Timothy to include ALL. Was this appropriate (i.e., in keeping with the stated mision of Yeshua by his own admission)? 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/ce65a13a/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 17:26:48 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:26:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006401c8aeff$1c12b260$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Rick, I agree with your two cents!  I think we need to indeed "draw Ross
out" on this one!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:19 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Hanoch, That's the way I understand what Yeshua came for. He reportedly said
that he was sent for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. So does
everything he did or was to do based on that Context. If that was what he
was sent for, then he stayed in that context. Just my two cents.

Rick



On May 5, 2008, at 4:42 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:

Shalom to all - 

     I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost
Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then
perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans
tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm
seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  

      Thoughts, comments??

                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah




-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb

Hi, but wasn't Israel was scattered during that time among the "nations"?
And Yeshua said he came first for the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel".
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
 


"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the
nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah,
Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .
When he said, "Drink of my blood"


he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L

 

.Subject: . The Lamb
 
Hey Ross and all:
 
Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has
no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all
his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his
resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin
is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In
other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how
did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God.
Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we
must work it on through.
 
Take care
 
CB .  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
AOL Food.
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site.
_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/fd8db1ca/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 17:28:48 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 22:28:48 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050520082228.10024.481F8A20000A5AC50000272822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

That is exactly what I just said in my last e-mail as well, Rick. I believe all that Yeshua said and did must be taken in the context of his mission, as he stated it to be.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/ec8825b3/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 17:29:14 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:29:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <905451919-1210024438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-380446826-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com><8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<905451919-1210024438-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-380446826-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8CA7D169233F1ED-B68-20CF@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>

Dear Ross - 

???? Hey pal, ME try to draw YOU out....no way!!? :-)? I'm still sitting here waiting for your commentary on the New Testament to be published!!? Yeah, I know....I've got a LONG wait? :-)? 

???? I'm just really relishing in the idea that we can actually TALK...all of us....no matter what our views....that we can talk.......actually discuss important things...with love and respect; man, what a concept, huh?!?

??? You see, I'm really easy to please!!? :-)? BTW...I've ordered more copies of those English/Hebrew 'Scriptures' for y'all.? I told them I needed it (as well as the Eng/Heb NT's) for a synagogue.? :-)? :-)? They're MORE THEN happy to oblige!

??? Also, I just 'found' 5 Hertz's for you, several ArtScroll Siddurim (prayer books), and some Artscroll for Rosh HaShana & Yom Kippur, as well as an Aramaic dictionary (the classic Marcus Jastrow one).? Lots more stuff for the synagogue library, too.? I will send them, hopefully next week.??

????In the meantime, if you'd like to elaborate on Yeshua and the 'Lost Sheep of the House of Israel' - that would be cool, too!? :-)

??? Ross, I remember years ago, someone referred to you, onlist,?as a Rabbi, and someone (not me, pal), freaked out, and quit the list (the other one), over it.? Can we make you an ordained Minister, or something?? John Hagee is already MY favorite Pastor, so there's room for me to have a 'Favorite Minister.'? Then all I'd need to do is find a 'Favorite Rabbi,' then I'll be all set!!? LOL? Can you tell I've been in meetings for 7 hours, so far, with 4.5 hours more to go??? Just a little bit silly.....

????You ROCK Ross!!? BTW...so when are we going to Australia??
????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah





-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Nichols <rndavar at aol.com>
To: Dialogue List <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:54 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb



Hanoch,
Are you trying to draw me out here? You are well aware of my teaching on this 
ubject:)
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
rom: youngbarzel at aol.com
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 17:42:44 
o:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
ubject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

halom to all - 

???? I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep 
f the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?? If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua 
ad a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and 
illed him.? Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING 
rom that perspective.??

????? Thoughts, comments??
???????????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb




i, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And 
eshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 
 
atty 
 


rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> 
 On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb 
 

Of the World" to me means the Nations.? As Israel was separated from the 
ations it could not mean them ??? The Nations who did not have the Torah, 
eshua? kept it for them.?? It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .?? 
hen?he said, "Drink of my blood" 

e means , "learn of my life".? Just some more thoughts I have????? Dick L 

Subject:?. The Lamb 

 

ey Ross and all: 

 

ould it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no 
onnection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his 
istorical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his 
esurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is 
aken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words 
aking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua 
ecome like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you 
ave hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on 
hrough. 

 

ake care 

 

B?. ? 
 



---------------

ondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL 
ood <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . 

---------------

______________________________________________ 
______________________________________________ 
----------------
lan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> 
 America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________



_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/77e7e340/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 17:56:07 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:56:07 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <006401c8aeff$1c12b260$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <8CA7D1A56DF7D61-B68-2256@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>

You see Ross, it's not Lil ol' ME drawing you out, it's Rick and Betty!!!? I'm just a good little boy....LOL

Luv ya man,
???????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 6:26 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb




Rick, I agree with your two cents!? I think we need to indeed ?draw Ross out? on this one!

?

Betty/Elisheva

?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:19 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


?

Hanoch, That's the way I understand what Yeshua came for. He reportedly said that he was sent for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. So does everything he did or was to do based on that Context. If that was what he was sent for, then he stayed in that context. Just my two cents.

Rick



On May 5, 2008, at 4:42 PM, youngbarzel at aol.com wrote:

Shalom to all - 

???? I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?? If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.? Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.??

????? Thoughts, comments??

???????????????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah





-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb

Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?.
?
Patty
?
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
?




"Of the World" to me means the Nations.? As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??? The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua? kept it for them.?? It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .?? When?he said, "Drink of my blood"




he means , "learn of my life".? Just some more thoughts I have????? Dick L




?

.Subject:?. The Lamb
?
Hey Ross and all:
?
Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven??And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.
?
Take care
?
CB?. ?


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________





_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/c0383e99/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 17:59:10 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:59:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <050520082228.10024.481F8A20000A5AC50000272822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>	<8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>
	<050520082228.10024.481F8A20000A5AC50000272822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <8CA7D1AC3A6F541-B68-2281@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>

Hey Glenn -?

?????????? Okay, now all we have to do is to define that mission, right?? Not an easy task....but keep going, we're sure making progress!!!? BTW...nothing personal, but you DO owe me some Hendrix on the guitar....just a friendly reminder!!? :-)? 
?????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah 



-----Original Message-----
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 6:28 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb



That is exactly what I just said in my last e-mail as well, Rick. I believe all that Yeshua said and did must be taken in the context of his mission, as he stated it to be.



_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/4834323d/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 18:04:27 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <050520082226.4319.481F89A40007E851000010DF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <244978.18128.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/5a27ce99/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Mon May  5 18:07:37 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 23:07:37 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7D1AC3A6F541-B68-2281@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>	<8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>
	<050520082228.10024.481F8A20000A5AC50000272822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<8CA7D1AC3A6F541-B68-2281@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <050520082307.2252.481F9338000CFF4E000008CC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Well, Hanoch, I began to define Yeshua's mission as I see it in my previous e-mail. IMHO, he was sent to redeem the firstborn son of G-d - Israel. Why they would need to be redemmed is the subject of the Prophets. He came to remind them of their heritage, and to show them the way back to The Father. He wept for them, prayed for them, taught them and, when necessary, rebuked them. He lived his life in complete and utter submission to his misson. He died doing the same - IMHO.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/91259e25/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 18:09:42 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:09:42 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <050520082307.2252.481F9338000CFF4E000008CC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>	<8d48b6da3f0f2bf1e2d394ff33590c8c@yahoo.com>	<050520082228.10024.481F8A20000A5AC50000272822230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>	<8CA7D1AC3A6F541-B68-2281@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<050520082307.2252.481F9338000CFF4E000008CC22243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <07e401c8af05$1c2f2c50$548d84f0$@com>

Also, he gave them His NAME, which apparently had been lost or suppressed.

 

Patty 

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
chattertonw at bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:08 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Well, Hanoch, I began to define Yeshua's mission as I see it in my previous
e-mail. IMHO, he was sent to redeem the firstborn son of G-d - Israel. Why
they would need to be redemmed is the subject of the Prophets. He came to
remind them of their heritage, and to show them the way back to The Father.
He wept for them, prayed for them, taught them and, when necessary, rebuked
them. He lived his life in complete and utter submission to his misson. He
died doing the same - IMHO.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/1dd5d746/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Mon May  5 18:44:28 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:44:28 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <c8d.20af9b81.3550f5dc@aol.com>

I think a bit more should be said, at least in my thinking of what the  
comments and question Ross raised in his post below. I think Ross has hit upon a  
breakthrough when thoroughly explained turns orthodox Christian concepts on  
their head. Let me explain how, and jump in here Ross since you opened it up.  
Here is what Ross said:
 
1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death  
was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).  There is no doubt that  
this idea is present in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians  5:6-8.  
The question is...what exactly does this mean?
 
Then Ross commented:
 
I think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist when  
Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the  
sins of the world", people have made a leap in their thinking.


Now, there it is, and for the first time I got it like a light from  heaven 
going on. What Ross is saying people have made a leap in their thinking,  and 
may I add because they did not understand the purpose of the Passover in  
Egypt. Again Ross jump in here at will. The Passover was not a sin  offering, and 
dear friends, neither was the Passover of Yeshua. We can look at  what the 
Passover did accomplish, but what it did not accomplish then nor did  the Passover 
of Yeshua and that is to take away the sin of the world. If I  sound exited 
here you can blame it on Ross, because he is the one that turned  the light on. 
 
Now, Linda takes us a bit further.
.
Shalom TO ALL,
 
  Eze 18:1-18 showed me something years ago.  I'll just write vs.  2-5:  (KJV)
    What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the  lan of Israel 
saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's  teeth are set on 
edge?
    As I live, saith the L-rd G-d, ye shall not have  (occasion) any more to 
use this proverb in Israel.
    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father,  so also the soul 
of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
   But if ye be just, and do that which is lawful and  right......that soul 
shall live.
 
   Simply...we are all responsible for our own bank  account.
   No one else can "pay for our sins", according to HaShem
 
Blessings,
Linda
 
Yes Linda, thank you, the Passover Lamb that John spoke who would take away  
the sin of the world, was not accomplished by the Passover of Yehsua, any more 
 that the Passover in the wilderness took away sin. As it was in Ezek 
18:1-18, so  it is today, and the Passover of Yeshua did not change that. Well then 
what did  the Passover in Egypt accomplish? Lets here Ross again:
 
The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not  
associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or  
"taking away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was associated with a  
festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son. It was roasted  over 
fire and eaten with bitter herbs.
 
And again Ross is on the mark and preaching real good. I'm having fun here  
and I hope all of you are as well. So what is Ross telling us? He is showing 
us,  and right out of the Torah, that what the Passover of Yeshua was related to 
is  God's firstborn son. In other words the Passover of Yeshua sets a bay 
eternal  death just as in the Passover in Egypt set at bay death of the 
firstborn. Well,  it only sets death, and all death is eternal unless there is 
resurrection from  the dead at bay. Well then, how are we made Just, and imputation 
will not do.  How was Yeshua made just through all phases of his life? Since God 
is just and  the justifier, then was not Yeshua made just in each stage from 
adolescent to  adulthood, and how was that? He internalized the Torah that is 
Holy, and the  Commandment that is Holy, and Just, and good. And so, sin is 
taken away by  being transformed in our mind and heart, and by what are we 
transformed? The  Torah that is Holy, and the commandment that is Holy and Just, 
and  good. Now help me Ross, and anyone else that can stay on point and lets  
together work this all the way through.
 
CB    .     
 
 
 
 
     
 
 
 
 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/766ba15e/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 18:50:43 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 16:50:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <734332.58422.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/7125f91c/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Mon May  5 19:01:41 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 10:01:41 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>

Shalom to all,
                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I 
have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not 
posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was 
procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an 
architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of 
Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep 
up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey 
that attracted the bee.
                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers 
a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I 
would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the 
sins of the world "

                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to 
draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot 
and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini 
Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of 
Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of 
Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is 
a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim 
are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The 
names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to 
the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of 
the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the 
bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been 
repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no 
rejoicing.
 
                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret 
for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the 
birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem 
who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I 
do ".
                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has 
butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other 
aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So 
the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot ( 
Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit 
of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur. 
They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about 
grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their 
doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt) 
during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if 
they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom 
Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I 
cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the 
immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins 
of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The 
Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I 
believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the 
tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought 
of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am 
not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join 
in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special 
hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me 
onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
JOE.
        
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: rndavar at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:52:50 -0400
Size: 9090
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/fc03d987/attachment.eml 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 19:26:13 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:26:13 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!
Message-ID: <00d301c8af0f$cab94990$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Dear friends, I am a little off the subject here, but wanted to send out a
reminder for these two very important events.The New Moon of Iyar and
Israel's Memorial Day begin this evening!  

 

I was told that in Israel, unlike here in the US, that all day long on TV
for Yom HaZikaron, the names of the fallen heroes are continually shown on
the screen, one after the other.and there is not a family that is not
affected by the loss of a loved one.a somber time of reflection and prayer.
We are having a memorial service at out local synagogue tomorrow.

 

 In case any of you are interested, I have attached the New Moon Prayer for
Redemption (not off the subject) which many of us have said for years.I have
copied and pasted it below with a short introduction by James.

 

For those who are of a mind, let's join together in our New Moon prayer on
this Rosh Chodesh...That prayer seems particularly appropriate for these
days... UIWU Monthly Prayer for Redemption

 

This Biblical Prayer was commissioned and inaugurated by David Horowitz in
1991. It has been fervently prayed by many around the world, both Jews and
non-Jews, at sunset at the beginning of the New Moon as based on the
standard Jewish calendar.  It is an expression of our solidarity and shared
faith, in accordance with Malachi 3:16-18.

 

Hope some of you will choose to join in this evening at sundown, or whenever
you can. 

 

B'Ahavah Yehuda v'Yisrael,

 

Betty/Elisheva 

 

The UIWU Prayer for Redemption

Elohim of Elohim, Adonai of Adonim, the Great, the Mighty, the Awesome,
whose Name alone is YHVH, the Eternal God of Hosts, God of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob, Our Father, we fervently call upon You.

Ah YHVH God, we are but dust and ashes!  We are ashamed and embarrassed to
lift our faces to You, for our iniquities have risen above our heads, and
our guilt has grown even to the heavens.  It is not on account of our own
righteousness that we offer these supplications before You, but on account
of Your great compassion. What are we?  What is our life?  What is our
goodness?  What is our righteousness?  What is our strength?  In Your
presence, Oh God, we are as nothing.

Yet You have declared Yourself merciful and gracious, slow to anger,
abounding in lovingkindness and faithfulness.  You made the heavens and the
earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm.  Nothing is too
wonderful for You.  You are the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, keeping
covenant forever, showing mercy to thousands who fear Your Name and keep
Your Commandments.  Now for a brief moment you have shown grace to us in
leaving an escaped remnant who sigh and cry over all the sins of Israel and
the nations.

You have declared, YHVH, our God, RETURN TO ME, AND I WILL RETURN TO YOU.
We do RETURN O YHVH!  We fervently call upon You, we cry out to You, to SEND
THE REDEEMER, to regather the lost sheep of all Israel, to crush the evil
ways of the wicked.  We long for that day when the Torah will go forth from
Zion to all the nations, when darkness will flee away, when the veil will be
removed from all Israel and the nations, when the saints of the Most High
will receive the Kingdom, when You will destroy the destroyers of the earth,
when wars will be forever abolished, when justice and righteousness will
fill the earth as the waters cover the sea, when "YHVH will be King over all
the earth, and His Name One."

Oh YHVH our God, God of Abraham Your love, we call upon You together on this
day, at this hour.  Oh YHVH hear!  Oh YHVH forgive!  Oh YHVH hearken and
act!  Oh YHVH delay not!  For Your sake and for Zion, and for Your people,
and for all humankind.  In the appointed TIME you will hasten it, for it
will certainly come, it will not delay.  We bow the knee, we sigh and cry,
we turn to You, YHVH, our Rock and our Redeemer.  Hear our prayer!

Reading and Meditation:

Zechariah 1:2-4

Malachi 3:16-24 (Hebrew)

 

Daniel 9:1-19; chapters 2 & 7

 

Ezra 9:5-15

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/bfd01d29/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Mon May  5 19:31:40 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 19:31:40 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
In-Reply-To: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <00e401c8af10$8da92830$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Welcome, Joe!  And thank you for your insightful post.  Jessica has endeared
herself to us and has spoken very highly of you.  

No time now to give justice to what you wrote, but I just wanted to welcome
you while I had a minute.  Yes, there are a large number of emails going
back and forth and it does take stamina...we all just do the best we can and
jump in or out depending on our own pressing schedules.

Got to run and take care of some of those pressing things.  Take care and
hope to hear from you again soon.  And again, welcome!

Shalom and shavua tov,

Betty/Elisheva



-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]

Shalom to all,
                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I 
have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not 
posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was 
procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an 
architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of 
Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep 
up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey 
that attracted the bee.
                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers 
a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I 
would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the 
sins of the world "

                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to 
draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot 
and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini 
Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of 
Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of 
Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is 
a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim 
are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The 
names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to 
the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of 
the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the 
bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been 
repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no 
rejoicing.
 
                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret 
for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the 
birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem 
who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I 
do ".
                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has 
butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other 
aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So 
the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot ( 
Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit 
of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur. 
They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about 
grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their 
doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt) 
during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if 
they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom 
Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I 
cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the 
immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins 
of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The 
Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I 
believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the 
tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought 
of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am 
not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join 
in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special 
hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me 
onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
JOE.
        



From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 19:32:14 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:32:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <734332.58422.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
	<734332.58422.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07f901c8af10$a339a260$e9ace720$@com>

Hi,

 

Actually G-d told Abraham to go up and offer a sacrifice. Abraham ASSUMED that He meant Isaac, but was provided a ?more acceptable? sacrifice. I believe this was a LESSON that G-d did not want to be worshipped in the manner of the other g-ds, by offering child sacrifices.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Brother Steve,

 

Good thoughts and good summary.

 

Repentance is proclaimed throughout the Netsarim Testimony by Paul and everyone else. There is no forgiveness without repentance. What the Netsarim Testimony is revealing is that there was something that transpired in the mind and plans of HaShem in regard to sacrifice/substitution/korbanot, even before the foundation of the world, which then was symbolized through the actual ceremonies of sacrifice. No doubt these things are difficult to understand, and I don't claim to understand them completely either. Obviously, it was HaShem who taught Abel to do this: 

 

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Obviously, it was HaShem who told Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering Gen 22:2 . And then, provided a substitute - in the stead of his son Isaac Gen 22:13. Isaiah 53 has someone (singular) suffering 'like a lamb' for someone else (plural).

 

Technically, 'the once and for all sacrifice' was accomplished in the mind of G-d before he created the world. So, sacrifice, from Abel forward was after the fact. So, for it to again to take place in the coming temple, is no contradiction. We will simply understand what it signifies whereas those beforehand didn't necessarily understand what it was pointing toward. There will come a time when it and the ark does not come to mind again (Jeremiah 3).

 

The Netsarim Testimony declares that HaShem determined that - the Maschiach - was and is that lamb that was slain 'before the foundation of the world'. 

 

In my estimation, whether a person understands this heavenly mystery or not or even accepts it or not, if that person truly repents and attempts to live for HaShem, then the merit of that accomplishment is laid to there account - from Adam Rishon forward. So, I can fellowship on this basis.

 

I believe in the Resurrection of the dead. I believe that The Mashiach was to be the first to rise from the dead.  Who's next?

 

Tracy  <http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif> 


--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote:

From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 2:05 PM

Friends, 

The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent when one changes from a sinful behavior.

Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29, 29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the proper pattern. 

We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8, Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then, then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine holds true? 

 We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.  Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."  Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

Steve

At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Betty and All,
 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah? in the Jewish tradition.
 
No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be like the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
 
This is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do today?
 
Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.

 



However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.



 



In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?



 



And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.



 



Take care



 



CB     




_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  it now. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/7eb03c81/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 19:44:57 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 17:44:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <07f901c8af10$a339a260$e9ace720$@com>
Message-ID: <896857.72427.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/d81b3779/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Mon May  5 20:05:36 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:35:36 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <734332.58422.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <734332.58422.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <27DFD14FE11A4128AAEF1AB557A5ABD6@JessicaPC>

Hi Guys,
I am just wondering if maybe the sacrificial lamb could refer to the animal that G_d Himself provided as the 'covering' (atonement) for humanity when He covered Adam and Hava in Gan Eden??
Love what is going on here
Jessica



----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tracy Osborne 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:20 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness


        Brother Steve,



        Good thoughts and good summary.



        Repentance is proclaimed throughout the Netsarim Testimony by Paul and everyone else. There is no forgiveness without repentance. What the Netsarim Testimony is revealing is that there was something that transpired in the mind and plans of HaShem in regard to sacrifice/substitution/korbanot, even before the foundation of the world, which then was symbolized through the actual ceremonies of sacrifice. No doubt these things are difficult to understand, and I don't claim to understand them completely either. Obviously, it was HaShem who taught Abel to do this: 



        Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


        Obviously, it was HaShem who told Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering Gen 22:2 . And then, provided a substitute - in the stead of his son Isaac Gen 22:13. Isaiah 53 has someone (singular) suffering 'like a lamb' for someone else (plural).



        Technically, 'the once and for all sacrifice' was accomplished in the mind of G-d before he created the world. So, sacrifice, from Abel forward was after the fact. So, for it to again to take place in the coming temple, is no contradiction. We will simply understand what it signifies whereas those beforehand didn't necessarily understand what it was pointing toward. There will come a time when it and the ark does not come to mind again (Jeremiah 3).



        The Netsarim Testimony declares that HaShem determined that - the Maschiach - was and is that lamb that was slain 'before the foundation of the world'. 



        In my estimation, whether a person understands this heavenly mystery or not or even accepts it or not, if that person truly repents and attempts to live for HaShem, then the merit of that accomplishment is laid to there account - from Adam Rishon forward. So, I can fellowship on this basis.



        I believe in the Resurrection of the dead. I believe that The Mashiach was to be the first to rise from the dead.  Who's next?



        Tracy


        --- On Mon, 5/5/08, Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote:


          From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
          Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
          Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 2:05 PM


          Friends, 

          The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent when one changes from a sinful behavior.

          Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29, 29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

          Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the proper pattern. 

          We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8, Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then, then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine holds true? 

           We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.  Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."  Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

          Steve

          At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:

            Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
                     boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
            Content-Language: en-us

            Hi Betty and All,
             
            What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
             
            Patty
             
            From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
            Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
            To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
            Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
             
            Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah? in the Jewish tradition.
             
            No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be like the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
             
            This is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do today?
             
            Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!
             
            Betty/Elisheva
             
             

--------------------------------------------------------------------

            From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
            Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
            To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
            Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
             
            CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

            What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

            Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

            Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

            Rick






            On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

            Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.







              However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.







              In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?







              And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.







              Take care







              CB     




            _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________ 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/8dba7769/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 20:07:24 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!
In-Reply-To: <00d301c8af0f$cab94990$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <596307.20603.qm@web51108.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/b7d7927f/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Mon May  5 20:16:49 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 18:16:49 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200805060116.m461GkLA010951@mail127c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3f7defe3/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 20:17:58 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:17:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <27DFD14FE11A4128AAEF1AB557A5ABD6@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <995188.3293.qm@web51109.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/6f820aaa/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Mon May  5 20:19:57 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:49:57 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
In-Reply-To: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
References: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <81A8161ADFF34D079D3AC5EB40686C1A@JessicaPC>

A Big Welcome Joe, so glad you chose to join in the Dialogue. I'm sure the 
group will gain a great blessing from your incredible depth of wisdom.
Brachot v'Shalom,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]


> Shalom to all,
>                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I
> have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not
> posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was
> procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an
> architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of
> Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep
> up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey
> that attracted the bee.
>                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers
> a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I
> would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the
> sins of the world "
>
>                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to
> draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot
> and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini
> Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of
> Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of
> Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is
> a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim
> are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The
> names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to
> the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of
> the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the
> bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been
> repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no
> rejoicing.
>
>                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret
> for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the
> birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem
> who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I
> do ".
>                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has
> butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other
> aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So
> the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot (
> Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit
> of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur.
> They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about
> grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their
> doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt)
> during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if
> they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom
> Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
>                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I
> cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the
> immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins
> of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The
> Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I
> believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the
> tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought
> of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
>                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am
> not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join
> in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special
> hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me
> onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem
>
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
> JOE.
>
> 



From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 20:20:46 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:20:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <896857.72427.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <07f901c8af10$a339a260$e9ace720$@com>
	<896857.72427.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <081e01c8af17$6c6e84b0$454b8e10$@com>

Hi Tracy,

 

I believe the Hebrew word ?oleh? which was translated as ?burnt offering? does not mean that in this context. As a noun it means ?the one who goes up?.  The person who on a Sabbath morning is called to Torah is called the OLEH as well as a Jewish immigrant. In the infinitive it can mean ?to go up? or ?ascend?. 

 

This is how I learned the meaning of this verse, perhaps there are others who know Hebrew better than I that would like to comment.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:45 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Hello Patty,

 

Here's the exact words: No assumptions stated:

 

Gen 22:2 And he [HaShem] said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

 

Wouldn't you agree that Abraham already knew all about proper sacrifice, since he had been practicing such for decades. Was this a lesson which he was needing to be taught at this late stage of his life?

 

Peace & Blessings,

 

Tracy


 

 

--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 7:32 PM

Hi,

 

Actually G-d told Abraham to go up and offer a sacrifice. Abraham ASSUMED that He meant Isaac, but was provided a ?more acceptable? sacrifice. I believe this was a LESSON that G-d did not want to be worshipped in the manner of the other g-ds, by offering child sacrifices.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Brother Steve,

 

Good thoughts and good summary.

 

Repentance is proclaimed throughout the Netsarim Testimony by Paul and everyone else. There is no forgiveness without repentance. What the Netsarim Testimony is revealing is that there was something that transpired in the mind and plans of HaShem in regard to sacrifice/substitution/korbanot, even before the foundation of the world, which then was symbolized through the actual ceremonies of sacrifice. No doubt these things are difficult to understand, and I don't claim to understand them completely either. Obviously, it was HaShem who taught Abel to do this: 

 

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Obviously, it was HaShem who told Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering Gen 22:2 . And then, provided a substitute - in the stead of his son Isaac Gen 22:13. Isaiah 53 has someone (singular) suffering 'like a lamb' for someone else (plural).

 

Technically, 'the once and for all sacrifice' was accomplished in the mind of G-d before he created the world. So, sacrifice, from Abel forward was after the fact. So, for it to again to take place in the coming temple, is no contradiction. We will simply understand what it signifies whereas those beforehand didn't necessarily understand what it was pointing toward. There will come a time when it and the ark does not come to mind again (Jeremiah 3).

 

The Netsarim Testimony declares that HaShem determined that - the Maschiach - was and is that lamb that was slain 'before the foundation of the world'. 

 

In my estimation, whether a person understands this heavenly mystery or not or even accepts it or not, if that person truly repents and attempts to live for HaShem, then the merit of that accomplishment is laid to there account - from Adam Rishon forward. So, I can fellowship on this basis.

 

I believe in the Resurrection of the dead. I believe that The Mashiach was to be the first to rise from the dead.  Who's next?

 

Tracy  <http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif> 


--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote:

From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 2:05 PM

Friends, 

The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent when one changes from a sinful behavior.

Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29, 29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the proper pattern. 

We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8, Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then, then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine holds true? 

 We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.  Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."  Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

Steve

At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Betty and All,
 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah? in the Jewish tradition.
 
No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be like the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
 
This is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do today?
 
Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.

 

However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.

 

In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?

 

And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.

 

Take care

 

CB     



_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> Try it now. 

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20> Try it now. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/650ef324/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 20:26:13 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:26:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
In-Reply-To: <81A8161ADFF34D079D3AC5EB40686C1A@JessicaPC>
References: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
	<81A8161ADFF34D079D3AC5EB40686C1A@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <083101c8af18$2e0d0420$8a270c60$@com>

Hi, I would like to welcome Joe as well!

Patty

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb]

A Big Welcome Joe, so glad you chose to join in the Dialogue. I'm sure the 
group will gain a great blessing from your incredible depth of wisdom.
Brachot v'Shalom,
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]


> Shalom to all,
>                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I
> have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not
> posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was
> procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an
> architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of
> Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep
> up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey
> that attracted the bee.
>                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers
> a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I
> would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the
> sins of the world "
>
>                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to
> draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot
> and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini
> Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of
> Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of
> Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is
> a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim
> are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The
> names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to
> the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of
> the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the
> bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been
> repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no
> rejoicing.
>
>                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret
> for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the
> birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem
> who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I
> do ".
>                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has
> butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other
> aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So
> the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot (
> Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit
> of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur.
> They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about
> grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their
> doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt)
> during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if
> they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom
> Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
>                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I
> cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the
> immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins
> of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The
> Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I
> believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the
> tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought
> of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
>                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am
> not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join
> in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special
> hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me
> onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem
>
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
> JOE.
>
> 

_______________________________________________




From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 20:28:55 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:28:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <200805060116.m461GkLA010951@mail127c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <27595.10834.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/41e6d980/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 20:38:45 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:38:45 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <200805060116.m461GkLA010951@mail127c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>	<076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<200805060116.m461GkLA010951@mail127c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <083b01c8af19$eec54cd0$cc4fe670$@com>

Hi Steve,

 

As I have understood it, the Unified Israel was to become a nation of kings and priests that would teach the Torah to the rest of the world (also G-ds children).

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:17 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Everyone,

 I second Hanoch's motion, and asked the same question in my 4-30-08 posting:  

"One of these assumptions is that "the uniting /unification of the tribes" is being talked about here.  We are so  keen on that principle that we can read that purpose into John's commentary. Is that what John meant, or is there a higher or other unification being talked about here? Are the children of G-d Israel here, or are all humans created by G-d being referred to by this phrase?" 

Has anyone have any ideas on this?

Steve

At 02:42 PM 5/5/2008, you wrote:



Shalom to all - 

     I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  

      Thoughts, comments??
                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb

Hi, but wasn???t Israel was scattered during that time among the ???nations???? And Yeshua said he came first for the ???Lost Sheep of the House of Israel???. 
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
 
"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L

.Subject: . The Lamb

 

Hey Ross and all:

 

Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

 

Take care

 

CB .  



  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________


_______________________________________________

  _____  

Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. 
_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/3cbe0f1c/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Mon May  5 20:39:15 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 18:39:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <081e01c8af17$6c6e84b0$454b8e10$@com>
Message-ID: <597749.30315.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/205cd628/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Mon May  5 20:39:53 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:39:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
References: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
	<81A8161ADFF34D079D3AC5EB40686C1A@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <013d01c8af1a$1568cf60$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Welcome Joe,  I too am very impressed with your level of knowledge. Jump in 
often...as you have the time.  I too studied Architecture but gave up 
finishing to build 5 daughters in 11 years. May HaShem multiply your time to 
include ALL HE has in store for you!!!    BLESSINGS,   LOY Leorah


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb]


>A Big Welcome Joe, so glad you chose to join in the Dialogue. I'm sure the 
>group will gain a great blessing from your incredible depth of wisdom.
> Brachot v'Shalom,
> Jessica
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 9:31 AM
> Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
>
>
>> Shalom to all,
>>                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I
>> have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not
>> posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was
>> procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an
>> architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of
>> Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep
>> up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey
>> that attracted the bee.
>>                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers
>> a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I
>> would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the
>> sins of the world "
>>
>>                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to
>> draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot
>> and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini
>> Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of
>> Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of
>> Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is
>> a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim
>> are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The
>> names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to
>> the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of
>> the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the
>> bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been
>> repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no
>> rejoicing.
>>
>>                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret
>> for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the
>> birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem
>> who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I
>> do ".
>>                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has
>> butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other
>> aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So
>> the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot (
>> Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit
>> of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur.
>> They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about
>> grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their
>> doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt)
>> during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if
>> they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom
>> Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
>>                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I
>> cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the
>> immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins
>> of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The
>> Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I
>> believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the
>> tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought
>> of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
>>                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am
>> not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join
>> in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special
>> hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me
>> onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem
>>
>> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
>> JOE.
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________ 



From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Mon May  5 20:45:37 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:45:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <597749.30315.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <081e01c8af17$6c6e84b0$454b8e10$@com>
	<597749.30315.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <084a01c8af1a$e38a20b0$aa9e6210$@com>

Thanks Tracy, I will study this more carefully. Perhaps the word we should be looking at is ?and offer, 5927? and ?there?, or SAM in Hebrew. There is no ?HIM there? in the text.  

 

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:39 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Hey Patty, here's several verses with the same word in Strong's numbers #5930

 

Gen 22:2 And he said,

559 Take3947 now4994 (853) thy son,1121 (853) thine only3173 son (853) Isaac,3327 whom834 thou lovest,157 and get1980 thee into413 the land776 of Moriah;4179 and offer5927 him there8033 for a burnt offering5930 upon5921 one259 of the mountains2022 which834 I will tell559 thee of.413 

 

Exo 18:12 And Jethro,

3503 Moses'4872 father-in-law,2859 took3947 a burnt offering5930 and sacrifices2077 for God:430 and Aaron175 came,935 and all3605 the elders2205 of Israel,3478 to eat398 bread3899 with5973 Moses'4872 father-in-law2859 before6440 God.430 

Exo 29:18 And thou shalt burn

6999 (853) the whole3605 ram352 upon the altar:4196 it1931 is a burnt offering5930 unto the LORD:3068 it is a sweet5207 savor,7381 an offering made by fire801 unto the LORD.3068 

Shalom,

Tracy

--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 8:20 PM

Hi Tracy,

 

I believe the Hebrew word ?oleh? which was translated as ?burnt offering? does not mean that in this context. As a noun it means ?the one who goes up?.  The person who on a Sabbath morning is called to Torah is called the OLEH as well as a Jewish immigrant. In the infinitive it can mean ?to go up? or ?ascend?. 

 

This is how I learned the meaning of this verse, perhaps there are others who know Hebrew better than I that would like to comment.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:45 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Hello Patty,

 

Here's the exact words: No assumptions stated:

 

Gen 22:2 And he [HaShem] said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

 

Wouldn't you agree that Abraham already knew all about proper sacrifice, since he had been practicing such for decades. Was this a lesson which he was needing to be taught at this late stage of his life?

 

Peace & Blessings,

 

Tracy


 

 

--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com> wrote:

From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 7:32 PM

Hi,

 

Actually G-d told Abraham to go up and offer a sacrifice. Abraham ASSUMED that He meant Isaac, but was provided a ?more acceptable? sacrifice. I believe this was a LESSON that G-d did not want to be worshipped in the manner of the other g-ds, by offering child sacrifices.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 7:51 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness

 


Brother Steve,

 

Good thoughts and good summary.

 

Repentance is proclaimed throughout the Netsarim Testimony by Paul and everyone else. There is no forgiveness without repentance. What the Netsarim Testimony is revealing is that there was something that transpired in the mind and plans of HaShem in regard to sacrifice/substitution/korbanot, even before the foundation of the world, which then was symbolized through the actual ceremonies of sacrifice. No doubt these things are difficult to understand, and I don't claim to understand them completely either. Obviously, it was HaShem who taught Abel to do this: 

 

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:


Obviously, it was HaShem who told Abraham to go and offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering Gen 22:2 . And then, provided a substitute - in the stead of his son Isaac Gen 22:13. Isaiah 53 has someone (singular) suffering 'like a lamb' for someone else (plural).

 

Technically, 'the once and for all sacrifice' was accomplished in the mind of G-d before he created the world. So, sacrifice, from Abel forward was after the fact. So, for it to again to take place in the coming temple, is no contradiction. We will simply understand what it signifies whereas those beforehand didn't necessarily understand what it was pointing toward. There will come a time when it and the ark does not come to mind again (Jeremiah 3).

 

The Netsarim Testimony declares that HaShem determined that - the Maschiach - was and is that lamb that was slain 'before the foundation of the world'. 

 

In my estimation, whether a person understands this heavenly mystery or not or even accepts it or not, if that person truly repents and attempts to live for HaShem, then the merit of that accomplishment is laid to there account - from Adam Rishon forward. So, I can fellowship on this basis.

 

I believe in the Resurrection of the dead. I believe that The Mashiach was to be the first to rise from the dead.  Who's next?

 

Tracy  <http://mail.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/01.gif> 


--- On Mon, 5/5/08, Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote:

From: Steve Mathe <eliasaph at uniteourheart.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Monday, May 5, 2008, 2:05 PM

Friends, 

The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent when one changes from a sinful behavior.

Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29, 29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the proper pattern. 

We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8, Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then, then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine holds true? 

 We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.  Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."  Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

Steve

At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Betty and All,
 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
 
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah? in the Jewish tradition.
 
No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be like the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
 
This is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do today?
 
Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ <mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org>  mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.

 

However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.

 

In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?

 

And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.

 

Take care

 

CB     

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  

_______________________________________________

 


  _____  


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  

_______________________________________________

 

  _____  

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>  it now. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/903bc0c0/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Mon May  5 20:53:38 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 20:53:38 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
References: <003601c8aece$c5ea45e0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <021601c8af1c$013c1900$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Thanks, Betty for that sage advice and sharing.....beautiful!  What a testimony to a life well spent.  blessings,  Loy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty Givin 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:40 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Dear Jessica, Sherry and Loy,

   

  I just now got on line to do some badly needed business that I need to tend to, but when I saw your note(s), I just had to respond as I do so identify with what you are going thru.I thought that I had responded to your initial post about your mother(s) Jessica, and Loy, but perhaps it got 'lost' in all the deluge! 

   

  I wasn't aware of your mother's problems, Sherry.  My heart truly goes out to all of you.  It is so hard to see our mothers like this.My mother died last summer and it was very difficult to see how she deteriorated in both body and mind the last few years of her life.but most especially the last year.

   

  She too lost her teeth numerous times, and we had to do a complete search.the thing about it is that she would put them in the most unusual places.  Of course, I have to confess that I have been known to loose my glasses only to discover when I passed a mirror that they were on my face!!!

   

  Mom also would ask the same question immediately after she had received a response.  My youngest daughter, Amy, who is a nurse and one of the most loving and compassionate people who ever walked this earth, would continually tell me that the best way to handle it is to answer the question each time she asked, as though she had never asked it.

   

  She also would sometimes forget that Dad had died, and would call me up, completely exasperated and in tears saying she hadn't heard from him and was so worried.  I would drop everything and go over, explain to her and then she would be okay, and apologize profusely for getting things "so mixed up."  I tried to always make light of it and tell her funny stories of how I was always losing my keys, my glasses, etc., and make her smile.  

   

  She would also have a tough time when I would have to change her or give her a shower, etc., but I always reminded her of how many times she had done the same things for me in the past, and how much I loved her, and that it was a gift to be able to help her.after all she had done for me, these things were very small in comparison.

   

  I know how hard it is.I will pray for all of you.  When the end of this life did come for her, I had the utmost blessing of being in her bed beside her.she took her last breath cradled in my arms.I repeatedly sang the Aaronic Benediction to her and the MiShebarach, which is a beautiful Hebrew prayer for complete healing.which I think she received as G-d took her back to him.  I also had the privilege of washing her body and annnointing her body with sweet smelling oil and swaddling her like a baby in a beautiful fresh sheet.  I wanted to be the last one to touch her precious body.even though I knew it was just a shell and that her soul was no longer there.  Nevertheless, it was the shell that held her spirit which has been and continues to be a blessing to me all the days of my life. It was something I just had to do and all of the nurses and staff there at the Hospice center where she died were very moved, and I was able to explain and give the glory to HaShem, which was a beautiful blessing on top of everything else...

   

  I have really got to go now, but just had to reach out to you all.

   

  Much love and many blessings and prayers,

   

  Betty/Elisheva

   

  P.S.  Dick has a beautiful poem about "Two Mothers".one that we grew up with and then one with Alzheimer's.it is so beautiful.Dick if you are out there, do you think you could find it and send it again.  I lost my copy after my aol messed up several years ago.

   

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:16 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

   

  Sherry,  Bless your heart....mother does the same... I put her glasses and hearing aids "ON" and a very few minutes they are gone.....somewhere?  who knows.  so frustrating!!! but probably not nearly as frustrating as having to wear them in the first place.   

  I meant to address that last e-mail to jessica to you as well....so read it as for you too.   Must get busy and get mother up....she would sleep the entire day and almost never ever eat.....if I would let her.

   

  Blessings to you, dear one.  I figure we will get our "reward" one day either here or there but if not....character is being built.  Sometimes I must admit....I think..".who cares about character"!     Loy

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Jessica 

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM

    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

     

    Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do Sherry.

    Love from your sister over the ocean,

    Jessica

     

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: sherry cole 

      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

      Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM

      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

       

      Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,

      I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.

      Thank you so much,

      Love and Blessings,

      Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: Jessica 

        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

        Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM

        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

         

        How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 

        It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.

        Blessings to your Mum.

        And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

        Blessings and Shalom,

        Jessica

         

        I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

         

          love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

           


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        _______________________________________________


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG. 
        Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/1196f9ec/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Mon May  5 21:57:48 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (Sherry Cole)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 21:57:48 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
References: <003601c8aece$c5ea45e0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
	<021601c8af1c$013c1900$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>
Message-ID: <044801c8af24$f7da6e30$6a00a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>

Thanks you wonderful ladies for the encouragement and prayers. It helps to hear other's stories of lost teeth and hearing aides.Betty , you're my hero! I hope that I will be as tender and loving with Mom in the days ahead. 
Much love and blessings ,
Sherry
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Loy 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


  Thanks, Betty for that sage advice and sharing.....beautiful!  What a testimony to a life well spent.  blessings,  Loy
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Betty Givin 
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
    Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:40 AM
    Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!


    Dear Jessica, Sherry and Loy,

     

    I just now got on line to do some badly needed business that I need to tend to, but when I saw your note(s), I just had to respond as I do so identify with what you are going thru.I thought that I had responded to your initial post about your mother(s) Jessica, and Loy, but perhaps it got 'lost' in all the deluge! 

     

    I wasn't aware of your mother's problems, Sherry.  My heart truly goes out to all of you.  It is so hard to see our mothers like this.My mother died last summer and it was very difficult to see how she deteriorated in both body and mind the last few years of her life.but most especially the last year.

     

    She too lost her teeth numerous times, and we had to do a complete search.the thing about it is that she would put them in the most unusual places.  Of course, I have to confess that I have been known to loose my glasses only to discover when I passed a mirror that they were on my face!!!

     

    Mom also would ask the same question immediately after she had received a response.  My youngest daughter, Amy, who is a nurse and one of the most loving and compassionate people who ever walked this earth, would continually tell me that the best way to handle it is to answer the question each time she asked, as though she had never asked it.

     

    She also would sometimes forget that Dad had died, and would call me up, completely exasperated and in tears saying she hadn't heard from him and was so worried.  I would drop everything and go over, explain to her and then she would be okay, and apologize profusely for getting things "so mixed up."  I tried to always make light of it and tell her funny stories of how I was always losing my keys, my glasses, etc., and make her smile.  

     

    She would also have a tough time when I would have to change her or give her a shower, etc., but I always reminded her of how many times she had done the same things for me in the past, and how much I loved her, and that it was a gift to be able to help her.after all she had done for me, these things were very small in comparison.

     

    I know how hard it is.I will pray for all of you.  When the end of this life did come for her, I had the utmost blessing of being in her bed beside her.she took her last breath cradled in my arms.I repeatedly sang the Aaronic Benediction to her and the MiShebarach, which is a beautiful Hebrew prayer for complete healing.which I think she received as G-d took her back to him.  I also had the privilege of washing her body and annnointing her body with sweet smelling oil and swaddling her like a baby in a beautiful fresh sheet.  I wanted to be the last one to touch her precious body.even though I knew it was just a shell and that her soul was no longer there.  Nevertheless, it was the shell that held her spirit which has been and continues to be a blessing to me all the days of my life. It was something I just had to do and all of the nurses and staff there at the Hospice center where she died were very moved, and I was able to explain and give the glory to HaShem, which was a beautiful blessing on top of everything else...

     

    I have really got to go now, but just had to reach out to you all.

     

    Much love and many blessings and prayers,

     

    Betty/Elisheva

     

    P.S.  Dick has a beautiful poem about "Two Mothers".one that we grew up with and then one with Alzheimer's.it is so beautiful.Dick if you are out there, do you think you could find it and send it again.  I lost my copy after my aol messed up several years ago.

     

     

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy
    Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:16 AM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

     

    Sherry,  Bless your heart....mother does the same... I put her glasses and hearing aids "ON" and a very few minutes they are gone.....somewhere?  who knows.  so frustrating!!! but probably not nearly as frustrating as having to wear them in the first place.   

    I meant to address that last e-mail to jessica to you as well....so read it as for you too.   Must get busy and get mother up....she would sleep the entire day and almost never ever eat.....if I would let her.

     

    Blessings to you, dear one.  I figure we will get our "reward" one day either here or there but if not....character is being built.  Sometimes I must admit....I think..".who cares about character"!     Loy

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: Jessica 

      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

      Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM

      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

       

      Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do Sherry.

      Love from your sister over the ocean,

      Jessica

       

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: sherry cole 

        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

        Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM

        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

         

        Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,

        I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them) My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.

        Thank you so much,

        Love and Blessings,

        Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 

          From: Jessica 

          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

          Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM

          Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

           

          How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at 102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter, she would one day be bathing me". 

          It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies and young children, before we can off into the world.

          Blessings to your Mum.

          And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

          Blessings and Shalom,

          Jessica

           

          I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the ........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

           

            love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

             


----------------------------------------------------------------------

          _______________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------------------

          No virus found in this incoming message.
          Checked by AVG. 
          Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008 5:30 PM


------------------------------------------------------------------------

        _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

      _______________________________________________



----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 5/5/2008 6:01 AM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/7b2fd314/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 22:04:53 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:04:53 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
In-Reply-To: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
References: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2A70A24A669EBB5610854BAD60@phx.gbl>

Hi Joe!   I'm so glad you joined our group, aka "a hidden treasure of 
HaSHem."  Thank you for this most interesting post.  Keep 'em coming, 
please!

Love,

Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:01 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]

> Shalom to all,
>                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I
> have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not
> posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was
> procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an
> architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of
> Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep
> up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey
> that attracted the bee.
>                   Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers
> a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I
> would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the
> sins of the world "
>
>                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to
> draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot
> and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini
> Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of
> Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of
> Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is
> a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim
> are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The
> names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to
> the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of
> the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the
> bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been
> repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no
> rejoicing.
>
>                 Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret
> for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the
> birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem
> who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I
> do ".
>                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has
> butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other
> aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So
> the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot (
> Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit
> of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur.
> They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about
> grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their
> doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt)
> during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if
> they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom
> Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
>                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I
> cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the
> immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins
> of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The
> Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I
> believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the
> tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought
> of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
>                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am
> not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join
> in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special
> hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me
> onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem
>
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
> JOE.
>
>



> _______________________________________________
> 


From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 22:14:40 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:14:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS591F03514C5F885018CE6BAD60@phx.gbl>

Of course the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel were the Lost Tribes!!!!!   Did anyone think otherwise?


From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Shalom to all - 

     I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  

      Thoughts, comments??
                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 

Patty

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L
  .Subject: . The Lamb

  Hey Ross and all:

  Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

  Take care

  CB .  




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/27ca2256/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 22:23:02 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:23:02 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <cb8.2aba126b.35512916@aol.com>

Hey Tracy,
 
    The hour is unfortunately late  (11:15), and I just got in from work, so 
I may not be even more fuzzy-headed  then usual  :-)  But am I interpreting 
what you wrote correctly, when  you wrote:
 
And such a person is/should be the representative and  personification of All 
Israel & Judah. We ignorantly take hold of him like  taking hold of a 
present. We open up the package and its a Torah Scroll.  Eventually, that Torah 
Scroll eats away at 'the enmity of Ephraim' and 'the  vexation of Judah'. We begin 
to be gathered.
 
    Are you saying the  following:
 
1. Yeshua is the personification of 'All Israel and  Judah"
 
2. Yeshua is like, or is, a Torah scroll
 
3. And only "through" Yeshua will the 'the  enmity of Ephraim' and 'the 
vexation of Judah' end?
 
    Thanks in advance for the  clarification, I appreciate it!
 
    Best regards,
         Hanoch   the Lil Lion of Judah 







**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/bf51b3bb/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 22:26:49 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:26:49 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>
	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS31D16E201DD0244DC661CBAD60@phx.gbl>

That part about the "world" meaning the "nations" where the Tribes were scattered is really an interesting idea, Dick!     ~ Pat


From: Dick L 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L
  .Subject: . The Lamb


  Hey Ross and all:

  Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

  Take care

  CB .  





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/e9413560/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 22:27:09 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:27:09 EDT
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <ce2.2c7190a3.35512a0d@aol.com>

Shalom Joe - 
 
    Welcome!  Jump on in whenever you  get a chance....
                  Hanoch  the  Lil Lion of Judah 







**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/a0055ad5/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Mon May  5 22:39:48 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:39:48 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!
Message-ID: <c87.2c14d90e.35512d04@aol.com>

 
Hey folks - 
 
    Yom HaZikaron is actually on Wednesday  in Israel, immediately prior to 
Yom Ha'Atzmaut, which this year will be  celebrated on Wed night - Thursday, so 
as not to conflict with  Shabbat.
 
              Hanoch  the  Lil Lion of Judah 





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/999d704a/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 22:41:35 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:41:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!
In-Reply-To: <c87.2c14d90e.35512d04@aol.com>
References: <c87.2c14d90e.35512d04@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS237149F59569DB9FF8BB4BAD60@phx.gbl>

Thanks, Hanoch.  


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:39 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!


Hey folks - 

    Yom HaZikaron is actually on Wednesday in Israel, immediately prior to Yom Ha'Atzmaut, which this year will be celebrated on Wed night - Thursday, so as not to conflict with Shabbat.

             Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah 






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/25da12aa/attachment.html 

From RNDAVAR at aol.com  Mon May  5 22:49:37 2008
From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:49:37 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
Message-ID: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>

Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.   In many 
ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of  Yeshua's 
parables.
 
_http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm_ 
(http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm) 
 
Ross K.  Nichols 
_www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) 





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/b82e0217/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Mon May  5 22:51:36 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 22:51:36 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS2A70A24A669EBB5610854BAD60@phx.gbl>
References: <481F9FE5.6090802@westnet.com.au>
	<BLU125-DS2A70A24A669EBB5610854BAD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805052051l48014307k47a13466ae4d32b5@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome, Joe and thank you so much for taking the time to share your
comments.

Kim

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Joe!   I'm so glad you joined our group, aka "a hidden treasure of
> HaSHem."  Thank you for this most interesting post.  Keep 'em coming,
> please!
>
> Love,
>
> Pat
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:01 PM
> To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
>
>  Shalom to all,
> >                   I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I
> > have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not
> > posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was
> > procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an
> > architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of
> > Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep
> > up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey
> > that attracted the bee.
> >                  Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers
> > a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I
> > would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the
> > sins of the world "
> >
> >                 Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to
> > draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot
> > and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini
> > Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of
> > Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of
> > Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is
> > a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim
> > are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The
> > names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to
> > the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of
> > the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the
> > bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been
> > repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no
> > rejoicing.
> >
> >                Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret
> > for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the
> > birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem
> > who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I
> > do ".
> >               So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has
> > butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other
> > aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So
> > the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot (
> > Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit
> > of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur.
> > They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about
> > grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their
> > doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt)
> > during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if
> > they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom
> > Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
> >               I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I
> > cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the
> > immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins
> > of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The
> > Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I
> > believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the
> > tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought
> > of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
> >               Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am
> > not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join
> > in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special
> > hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me
> > onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem
> >
> > Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
> > JOE.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080505/4fda916f/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 23:03:14 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:03:14 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness 
In-Reply-To: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com><00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin><06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
	<200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <b76ae7232dae272d7ad1aeb3f1f6666e@yahoo.com><00aa01c8aebb$c02840c0$643c66c9@bettygivin><06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
	<200805051905.m45J5LVe003157@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2D35D260F458D26F43AE3BAD60@phx.gbl>

Awesome, Steve!


From: Steve Mathe 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:05 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness 


Friends, 

The issue of blood sacrifices, and all sacrifices for that matter, are a conundrum that is difficult to fathom, with many paradoxical remarks and events and our historical mis/understandings of them.   As Tracy said, it will take a lot of prayer and Divine revelation to untangle the Gordian knot of these strings of ideas. It seems that the idea and process of repentance is spelled out Isa. 1:16-18.  No sacrifices are mentioned as necessary. This seems to back Betty's point below.  Of course neither is the passage a comprehensive handbook of protocols of sacrifices to express one's intent when one changes from a sinful behavior.

Jeremiah tells us that the sacrifices were added later, (Jer. 7:22-23).   At first G-d required only obedience, but because of their incessant inability to stick with the program, G-d required Israel to go thorough the sacrificial protocols which would impress upon them the means of reconciliation through which they could return to be in "good graces" again and again. It all seems that this was necessary due to the fact that they did not have the heart in them to obey HaShem's commandments. (Deut. 5:29, 29:4).  They needed some ritual to guide them through the process of reconciliation.  Of course G-d knew that Israel would be rebellious, but gave them the benefit of doubt and to prove otherwise. Obviously, the sacrificial system was in the plans from eternity. 

Ross says "The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone."  To date Jews observe passover as a commemoration of a miraculous deliverance, and it was probably so 2000 years ago as well.  What we also have to remember is that the passover lamb's blood was to be struck on the door posts of Israelite houses in order to exempt them from HaShem's death sentence on the firstborn in Egypt.  It may be that we have erroneously assumed that this sign of the blood on the door posts is the same as atonement from sins in general. I do not recall reading that the firstborn in Egypt were to be killed because they were sinners and that the blood on the door posts would atone for their sins. Perhaps it was ONLY a one-time event for that generation only, for a specific deliverance and not necessarily a mystical act to be applicable for all sins for all mankind for all time to come.  I know this is difficult for many to take, since we are so conditioned to accept Christian doctrines at face value, assuming a lot of connections where there may be no connections between certain dots.  To be sure, there are connections between the dots of this puzzle, and with HaShem's help, if we seek Him, we will find out the proper pattern. 

We know that sacrifices will be offered in the new Temple, e.g. Isa. 56:8, Zech. 14:21.  Whatever they will be, as Patty points out, they will be "to make reconciliation / atonement / kapar for the house of Israel."  If the Christian doctrine of substitutionary sacrifice of holds and will hold then, then why are these sacrifices required in the Great Shabbat to come?  We will be given new hearts, and the holy Spirit of HaShem will ensoul us to be obedient and to live The Way as the children of G-d. To be sure, we will still be humans, and will make mistakes, but why will these sacrifices be there if the once-and-for-all sacrifice of the central Christian doctrine holds true? 

 We do not know how that Great Shabbat will evolve for a thousand years.  Perhaps in the beginning, this "training school" of sacrifices will be necessary to train the masses from Egypt, the Congo, Uzbekistan, Mongolia, North Korea, Tierra del Fuego and Papua New Guinea.  Perhaps they will serve as "protocols to observe as one approaches HaShem to ask for forgiveness."  Some rabbis say that the sacrifices never really did atone for sin, just as protocols never atoned for sin.  We are instructed on protocols on how to approach royalty, e.g. the queen of England, when we visit the queen at any time. The protocols themselves are NOT the substance of our message to the queen.  They only serve as proper means "to approach"  her majesty.  One's heart must be knowingly repentant and truly humbled by the enormity of one's sins in order to ask for forgiveness, (Psalm 51:15-16).  This is emphasized by rabbis today, as they say it was emphasized on Yom Kippur in Temple times. Perhaps later emphasis on sacrifices will be different. My guess is that thank offerings will be in the majority, especially be representatives of the nations that will come up to Jerusalem. We will see when we get there.  In the mean time we have to return to the Ancient Path the best we can, and to ask for Divine help, i.e. Guidance and strengthening to do so. 

Steve

At 09:28 AM 5/5/2008, you wrote:

  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
           boundary="----=_NextPart_000_06BC_01C8AEAB.9790A9A0"
  Content-Language: en-us

  Hi Betty and All,
   
  What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.
   
  Patty
   
  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
   
  Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah" in the Jewish tradition.
   
  No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.
   
  This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do today.
   
  Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!
   
  Betty/Elisheva
   
   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [ mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
   
  CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

  What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

  Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

  Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

  Rick






  On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:

  Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.







    However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.







    In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?







    And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.







    Take care







    CB     




  _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/5c130cfb/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 23:34:44 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:34:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com><3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>
	<050520081719.27040.481F41A0000447CA000069A022216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com><3e72f7bce24a02b45e747839f4d4df22@yahoo.com>
	<050520081719.27040.481F41A0000447CA000069A022216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS3B5D629A79714359E5639BAD60@phx.gbl>

Just now reading this, Glenn.  There are actually two different Hebrew words used in the Is. 35 and the Jer. 31 passages, but both are translated as "ransomed."   The one used in the Is. Scripture is from the same root word as the one I quoted in Lev. 17:11, which is "kapher."  It means to "cover - appease, make atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch (like bitumen), purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).

I love the stuff you point out to us!!!!  You always make me stop and think and dig and think some more!!!!

So Isaiah could read, "And the cleansed (or any of the other words given above) of HaSHem shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads:  they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away."   And likewise, Leviticus 17:11 could read, "For the life of the flesh in in the blood:  and I have given it to you upon the altar to cleanse your souls:  for it is the blood that cleanses the soul."

Not sure how to put this all together, and besides that, I'm REALLY sleepy now!

Thank you, Glenn,

Pat


From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 1:19 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


I think we may also need to explore what these references really signify - specifically, what is meant by 'ransom' here?

And the ransomed of HaSHeM shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. Isaiah 35:10

For HaSHeM hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. Jeremiah 31:11

And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:27-28

For there is one G-d, and one mediator between G-d and men, the man MaShiaCH Yeshua; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/1100c5dd/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Mon May  5 23:54:15 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:54:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS328F350A402F7B7B2FFABBAD60@phx.gbl>

So BEAUTIFULLY said, Ross!  Thanks for sending this.  ~ Pat
  


From: RNDAVAR at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:49 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables.

http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/cd43dc00/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 00:05:48 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 01:05:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com><8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS591F03514C5F885018CE6BAD60@phx.gbl>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com><8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS591F03514C5F885018CE6BAD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS4E0BE13626F9730B2CA5DBAD60@phx.gbl>

I've got to add something to this.  There may be actual evidence that Yeshua DID reach them!  When Masada was excavated, among the amazing artifacts found up there were remnants of what appear to be  Scottish Tartans!  That ought to interest you, Hanoch!!!!  What if they WERE Scottish Tartans from members of the Lost Tribes who had been called Home as a result of the emissaries originally sent out by Yeshua? 

I know that Masada happened some 60 years after his death, and not long after James' death, but still...................what if????

Pat     


From: Pat Robbins 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:14 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Of course the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel were the Lost Tribes!!!!!   Did anyone think otherwise?


From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:42 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Shalom to all - 

     I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  

      Thoughts, comments??
                       Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


-----Original Message-----
From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 

Patty

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

"Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L
  .Subject: . The Lamb

  Hey Ross and all:

  Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

  Take care

  CB .  




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/cd40d7ea/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 00:38:53 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:38:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!
In-Reply-To: <044801c8af24$f7da6e30$6a00a8c0@greenuptxoxqls>
Message-ID: <01b901c8af3b$7854e520$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Sherry and Loy, you are both most welcome!  If you ever need a listening
ear, I am here!  As for being tender and loving, Sherry, I am sure that you
are and will be.it can be very difficult sometimes.I did sometimes have to
turn my back to express my frustration and expiration or sometimes hide my
giggles at some of the things she would do, because I would never have
wanted hurt her.Mother deserved the best.that is what she gave me.and in a
small way, I was privileged to give her the honor she deserved.

 

That poem that Dick sent is so beautiful.  I do hope that he still has it
and will be able to send it.

 

Much love and blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

P.S.  I can hardly wait to see you again at Sukkot.Loy, I hope you can make
it too.it is not nearly so far as Charlotte!

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Cole
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:58 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Thanks you wonderful ladies for the encouragement and prayers. It helps to
hear other's stories of lost teeth and hearing aides.Betty , you're my hero!
I hope that I will be as tender and loving with Mom in the days ahead. 

Much love and blessings ,

Sherry

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Loy <mailto:loyb at prodigy.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 8:53 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Thanks, Betty for that sage advice and sharing.....beautiful!  What a
testimony to a life well spent.  blessings,  Loy

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Betty Givin <mailto:bkgivin at charter.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:40 AM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Our mothers/ Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Dear Jessica, Sherry and Loy,

 

I just now got on line to do some badly needed business that I need to tend
to, but when I saw your note(s), I just had to respond as I do so identify
with what you are going thru.I thought that I had responded to your initial
post about your mother(s) Jessica, and Loy, but perhaps it got 'lost' in all
the deluge! 

 

I wasn't aware of your mother's problems, Sherry.  My heart truly goes out
to all of you.  It is so hard to see our mothers like this.My mother died
last summer and it was very difficult to see how she deteriorated in both
body and mind the last few years of her life.but most especially the last
year.

 

She too lost her teeth numerous times, and we had to do a complete
search.the thing about it is that she would put them in the most unusual
places.  Of course, I have to confess that I have been known to loose my
glasses only to discover when I passed a mirror that they were on my face!!!

 

Mom also would ask the same question immediately after she had received a
response.  My youngest daughter, Amy, who is a nurse and one of the most
loving and compassionate people who ever walked this earth, would
continually tell me that the best way to handle it is to answer the question
each time she asked, as though she had never asked it.

 

She also would sometimes forget that Dad had died, and would call me up,
completely exasperated and in tears saying she hadn't heard from him and was
so worried.  I would drop everything and go over, explain to her and then
she would be okay, and apologize profusely for getting things "so mixed up."
I tried to always make light of it and tell her funny stories of how I was
always losing my keys, my glasses, etc., and make her smile.  

 

She would also have a tough time when I would have to change her or give her
a shower, etc., but I always reminded her of how many times she had done the
same things for me in the past, and how much I loved her, and that it was a
gift to be able to help her.after all she had done for me, these things were
very small in comparison.

 

I know how hard it is.I will pray for all of you.  When the end of this life
did come for her, I had the utmost blessing of being in her bed beside
her.she took her last breath cradled in my arms.I repeatedly sang the
Aaronic Benediction to her and the MiShebarach, which is a beautiful Hebrew
prayer for complete healing.which I think she received as G-d took her back
to him.  I also had the privilege of washing her body and annnointing her
body with sweet smelling oil and swaddling her like a baby in a beautiful
fresh sheet.  I wanted to be the last one to touch her precious body.even
though I knew it was just a shell and that her soul was no longer there.
Nevertheless, it was the shell that held her spirit which has been and
continues to be a blessing to me all the days of my life. It was something I
just had to do and all of the nurses and staff there at the Hospice center
where she died were very moved, and I was able to explain and give the glory
to HaShem, which was a beautiful blessing on top of everything else...

 

I have really got to go now, but just had to reach out to you all.

 

Much love and many blessings and prayers,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

P.S.  Dick has a beautiful poem about "Two Mothers".one that we grew up with
and then one with Alzheimer's.it is so beautiful.Dick if you are out there,
do you think you could find it and send it again.  I lost my copy after my
aol messed up several years ago.

 

 

 


  _____  


From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Loy
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:16 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Sherry,  Bless your heart....mother does the same... I put her glasses and
hearing aids "ON" and a very few minutes they are gone.....somewhere?  who
knows.  so frustrating!!! but probably not nearly as frustrating as having
to wear them in the first place.   

I meant to address that last e-mail to jessica to you as well....so read it
as for you too.   Must get busy and get mother up....she would sleep the
entire day and almost never ever eat.....if I would let her.

 

Blessings to you, dear one.  I figure we will get our "reward" one day
either here or there but if not....character is being built.  Sometimes I
must admit....I think..".who cares about character"!     Loy

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:13 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Bless you Sherry, your Mum has raised a beautiful daughter. I understand
what you are saying about your Mum's memory. I don't know if my Mum is early
Alzheimers or not, but for sure she is suffering early Dementia. She forgets
things instantly and asks the same questions every few minutes, and doesn't
recognise that fact even when she hears the same answers. She gets very
confused and befuddled. I think maybe HaShem protects His children by hiding
their condition from their own consciousness. It is those of us who must
watch who suffer from our loved ones demise. Bless you in all that you do
Sherry.

Love from your sister over the ocean,

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: sherry cole <mailto:shcole1 at cox.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

Hi Jessica and  a belated welcome ,

I had to respond to your post about taking care of your "Mum". Your response
to Loy spoke to my heart as I take care of my 92 year old Mom. Just today I
had lengthy discussions with HaShem about the struggles (Mom keeps loosing
her teeth - literally , she takes them out and forgets where she puts them)
My husband (Dave) and I run a landscape business , have a homeschooled
teenager , and Mom lives with us.It hasn't been easy lately - she's in early
stage Alzheimers. Your words are so true about the blessing of being able to
return the love and care they showed to us as we were coming up.I'm humbled
and encouraged at the same time by your and Loy's post.

Thank you so much,

Love and Blessings,

Sherry   ----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:57 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello from 'Downunder'and Jerusalem!

 

How blessed you are Loy to have the privilege of caring for your mother at
102 years of age. My Mum is only in her mid 70's and battling cancer. I
relocated last year to be nearer to her so I can care for her in whatever
way I'm able. The first time I showered her, she broke down in tears and
said - "I never dreamed that the first time I bathed my first born daughter,
she would one day be bathing me". 

It drove home the message, that it is actually a blessing to be able to
return the love and care to our parents that they showered on us as babies
and young children, before we can off into the world.

Blessings to your Mum.

And Loy - you have to trust me on this - YOU ARE NEVER ALONE!! HaShem is
ALWAYS there with you. He is the One who gives you the strength to do all
that you do every day. He is the One who has given you all of these
wonderful friends in the Dialogue List who care for you and pray for you.

Blessings and Shalom,

Jessica

 

I wish I had more time to write ....more and more often but in taking care
of mother 102 yrs and keeping up a big house and garden alone,  I just don't
have enough time.....won't heaven be nice when there is all the time in the
........"world"   or "heaven"......whatever....we won't be on a time
schedule.......!!!!!!!  Can't wait for the day. 

 

  love, and blessings for an awsome day to ALL,   Loy Leorah

 


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1410 - Release Date: 5/1/2008
5:30 PM


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________


  _____  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 5/5/2008
6:01 AM

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/a680b0fe/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 00:44:45 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 00:44:45 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS328F350A402F7B7B2FFABBAD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01be01c8af3c$4a8e2fb0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Pat and all, I am already behind again!  I just cannot seem to keep up with
ya'll!  I am hoping to read this one from Ross and all the other emails
tomorrow, but not sure as I have a very full day and evening!  I tried
reading some tonight, but couldn't concentrate, and now my eyes just won't
stay open.not because I am bored.these discussions are really amazing and I
appreciate each of you for your honest searching and thoughtful
consideration that you bring to the group.

 

Laila tov,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:54 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

 

So BEAUTIFULLY said, Ross!  Thanks for sending this.  ~ Pat
  

 

From: RNDAVAR at aol.com 

Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:49 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

 

Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many
ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's
parables.

 

http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/70bcbd5b/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue May  6 05:13:24 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 20:13:24 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness]
Message-ID: <48202F44.60605@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Chaverim,
                           firstly I would like to thank you all for the 
warm welcome. Well Jessica you put forward a very good point regarding 
the covering of the sin of Adam and Chavah by HaShem.
                          In the Torah the word " Ketonet" is used 3 
times and only 3 times.This word is quite unusual and rarely used. I 
will give some rabbinic insight. I would like at this point to stress 
that I will always give the Hebraic intent. I have learnt a vast amount 
from the sages and the rabbis.So my apologies to the Christians that may 
read this. I gave up on Christian theology a long time ago.
So to understand THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES you must view them them from the 
Hebraic perspective and not the greek.
                            So let's return to the Ketonet. This word 
first occurs in Genisis 3 v 21.where HaShem covers the nakedness of Adam 
and Chavah with Ketonet .
                            The next occurance is in Genisis 37 v3 where 
Jacov gives his favourite son Yosef a" Ketonet Pasim " a coat of many 
colours to the dismay of his brothers.Some rabbis say that it is the 
same one given to Adam.
                            The final occurance is in Exodus 28 v 4 
where the high priest wears the tunic or long shirt.The Ketonet atoned 
for murders which were not punishable by the Bet Din (because of the 
absence of two witnesses). If such a murder had been committed in K'lal 
Yisrael, HaShem held the entire people responsible for it. The Ketonet 
atoned for this guilt. It was chosen for this specific sin since it 
states that the brothers dipped Yosef's Ketonet into blood. The Ketonet 
also atoned for the transgression of wearing a mixture of wool and linen 
"sha'atnez" which is forbidden by the Torah. So only the Cohen Ha Gadol 
could wear this mixture. Why ?and to atone for what?
                          Now it gets very interesting. The rabbis say 
from the Misnah that the covering of Adam and Chavah happened on the 
14th of Nissan . So when and why did Hevel and Cain bring offerings to 
HaShem...... the 14th of Nissan and why ? .......... because He spared 
their parents. It was a thanksgiving offering. Had it not been for His 
mercy they would not of been born. When did Cain murder his brother 
Hevel...... the 14th of Nissan. So why the prohibition of mixing wool 
and linen? Because wool comes from lamb ( Hevel the shepherd) and linen 
comes from flax ( Cain the tiller of the ground) . So the role of the 
Cohen Ha Gadol is to atone for the first fraticide. It is interesting 
that Yosef had the Ketonet from Jacov.
                         In ending I would like to quote Zach13 v 4-6 
for you to ponder.

                        "Also it will come about in that day that the 
prophets will each be ashamed of
                         vision when he prophesies, and they will not 
put on a hairy robe in order to
                         deceive.
                         but he will say,'I am not a prophet; I am a 
tiller of the ground, for a man sold
                         me as a slave in my youth' ...... hmmmm - Yosef ?
                        And one will say to him, ' what are these wounds 
between your arms ?'
                        Then he will say , ' those with which I was 
wounded in the house of my friends"

Mission completed ,the Cohen Ha Gadol / Melech has atoned for brotherly 
hatred and antagonism by unifying the brothers with their father as was 
the case with Yosef.

All my love to y'all from the land of OZ.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem
JOE.
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 10:35:36 +0930
Size: 40512
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/096aa71f/attachment.eml 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 05:34:46 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:04:46 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <26DD37B436544C4FBB98EE3F04213747@JessicaPC>

Shalom Y'all,
Well this is certainly a topic of great conversation I must say. And so fascinating to read what everyone has to say on the topic. 
I am by no means a Torah scholar and really prefer to keep things simple - I can understand simple things (I think), but I am going to put my two cents worth in anyway. 
I am currently re-reading a book (Our Hands Are Stained With Blood - by Michael L Brown) wherein he points out that "rememberance is part of the Jewish Faith. Over and over, G_d commanded His people Israel to remember and never forget:".  That quote got me to thinking that the sacrifices of animals (which included the entire animal and not just the blood) along with the offerings of grain and drink are about 'remembering' , as much as they are about 'atonement', 'anointing', 'inaugurating' and 'consecrating'. G_d wants His people to remember the Covenants that were made with 'all living creatures of every kind', not just with humans, as stated in the Covenant with Noach. If the blood of a sacrificed animal sprinkled for atonementon the altar makes the altar 'holy', then it is the altar that atones for us. I think the sacrificial system is a 'reminder' that HaShem has already made the atonement in Gan Eden "once and for all", and doesn't require sacrifices of atonement over and over.  After all, the whole of humanity was present in Adam and Hava at the time that G_d 'covered' (atoned for) them with animal skins. The sacrificial system causes all the people to 'remember HaShem' and all that He has done, is doing and will do.   Being human, we need a means of remembering and not forgetting. As has been proven correct, we can't be relied upon to 'teach our children from generation to generation'. But by observing a sacrificial memorial, His Name will never be forgotten, nor will His great deeds of deliverance, nor His Covenants.
In everything G_d did, He commanded His people to 'remember' - we have just been reminded of that command with Holocaust Rememberance Day. How could the world ever forget such sacrifice? 
I hope you can follow my crazy way of thinking.
Shalom,
Jessica




----- Original Message ----- 
  From: rndavar at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 1:22 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Clyde and all,

  I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that deals with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.  I would ask a couple of questions that need to be answered. This note will be part one as I want us to try and stay on topic better.  We tend to comment on the notes of others until one can barely associate the current content of a note with the original thought.

  1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).  There is no doubt that this idea is present in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.  The question is...what exactly does this mean?  I think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people have made a leap in their thinking.

  Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.  My personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb was killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter herbs.

  So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between the death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua would in some way become associated with the firstborn son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?  Just a thought.

  Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in general, but that can wait for another post properly labeled.  So again, if I have not been clear - What does the Passover lamb have to do with forgiveness of sins?  I am having trouble finding a connection.  Anyone know of something that I am missing?

  Comments???

  Shalom, Ross

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/1ffd4c02/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue May  6 06:19:48 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:19:48 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <48203ED4.20301@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Hanoch,
                         I have a bit of time so I thought I would jump 
in. Tracy made some interesting points. Seeing that you are Jewish, I 
hope that this makes sense to you. In Judaism , the level of Ruach is 
not the highest. In fact it is 3rd on the scale, preceded by Nefesh and 
Neshamah, and followed by Chayah and Yechidah.
                         It is the Yechidah that I would like to 
concentrate on. In Judaism the loftiest level of Yechidah belongs to 
Mashiach. Because in him are stored the collected neshamot (souls) of 
all Jews ( sorry Yisraelites) past present and future. So the reason to 
have a chosen people is to bring forth a chosen ONE. If they fail- He 
succeeds on their behalf. As an explanation of this please read Daniel 9 
v24-27. The Malach Gavriel is speaking to Daniel regarding the decree of 
his people - Yehudah and his holy city Yerushalayim. Now within these 70 
weeks until the coming of Mashiach the Prince the city would be restored 
and rebuilt as it did after the return of the exiles under Ezra and 
Nehemiah.
                       Now did Yehudah/ Yerushalayim  (1) finish the 
transgression?.......................... No
                                                                           
(2) make an end of sin?................................ No
                                                                           
(3) make atonement for iniquity.....................No
                                                                           
(4) bring in everlasting righteousness..............No
                                                                           
(5) seal up vision and prophecy.....................No
                                                                           
(6) anoint the most holy place........................No
                        However I believe that their representative : 
Mashiach fulfilled all the above. So in a sense they, according to the 
concept of Yechidah did fulfill the decrees of Daniel 9. Similarly it is 
stated in the Talmud that if one keeps a mitzvah it is as if he created 
the world and if one breaks a mitzvah, it is as if he destroyed the 
world. Another example is when the Cohen Ha Gadol represents Am Yisrael 
on Yom Kippur.
                        Yeshua said that he came in the name of his 
Father. Again this is so rabbinic.When you read the talmud you will read 
such and such a rabbi said such and such in the name of rabbi such and 
such. This means that he is expounding the teaching of that rabbi who 
usually is his teacher. So the name is synonymous with the teaching. So 
Yeshua came with the teaching of his Father- the Torah. So , yes Tracy, 
Yeshua  is a living Torah scroll because he has been annionted and 
contains the spirit of HaShem.
                      Yeshua is the catalyst that will bring about the 
unification of the two houses. HaShem is still the author , just like in 
the story of Yosef.

Love to y'all from the land of OZ

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of G-d
JOE.
                       
                        
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:23:02 EDT
Size: 7876
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/8767c4cf/attachment.eml 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue May  6 06:32:03 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 21:32:03 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <482041B3.20801@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Jessica,
                       very well said. I knew that book would spark 
something in you.Very surprised at the immediate impact it has had on 
you. Very inspiring words that I think we should all take to heart.
                       Your timing as usual is impeccable .Baruch 
HaShem.You see y'all , we have a head start on you because we live in 
the land down under.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of G-d
JOE.

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Jessica" <jessley at eftel.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 20:04:46 +0930
Size: 16165
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/01ae7d74/attachment.eml 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 07:29:57 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 05:29:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <cb8.2aba126b.35512916@aol.com>
Message-ID: <58065.15372.qm@web51110.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/e59f1a84/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 07:41:01 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 05:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <26DD37B436544C4FBB98EE3F04213747@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <525059.93813.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/446d3767/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Tue May  6 07:41:36 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 05:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] The 'Messiah" blood and forgiveness]
In-Reply-To: <48202F44.60605@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <308934.29438.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/d8bc8930/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Tue May  6 07:49:01 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 07:49:01 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca>

Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this 
story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for 
me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the 
dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. 
And I guess I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too 
much of the New Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. 
But if it did not really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not 
be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so 
limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You 
must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.

Cornie

RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:
> Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In 
> many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of 
> Yeshua's parables.
>  
> http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm
>  
> *Ross K. Nichols *
> www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
> favorites at AOL Food 
> <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/26725eb5/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue May  6 08:33:36 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:33:36 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <091101c8af7d$cb1653b0$6142fb10$@com>

Great analogy, Ross!

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of RNDAVAR at aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:50 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

 

Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many
ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's
parables.

 

http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/b19d037d/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Tue May  6 10:00:00 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:00:00 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Rav Kahane -  about Mashiach Ben Yosef
In-Reply-To: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
References: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02c101c8af89$deddfe50$0200a8c0@marvin>

Hanoch,

 

When you have time could you give us a long or short summary of the Rav's
thoughts on the Mashiach?  

 

Thanks,

marvin

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:37 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff
in Poland....

 

Hey John - 

 

    I thought I was the only one with THAT particular syndrome!!!  LOL
Let's just think of it as increasing our anticipation for what might help
'sustain' us (emails from Sat night - Friday) over the course of the week,
after the beauty of Shabbat....

 

    My daughter Ayala was away this Shabbat so it was 'quiet' here, to say
the least - but after spending hours reading what Rav Kahane had written
about Mashiach Ben Yosef...I realized that I need that 'time to myself' in
order to spend that time.....

 

    SO much to discuss....gotta find the time to post at least some of
it....I already know that this week will have three nights (Mon-Wed) that
will keep me at work until 11:00; although tomorrow (Sunday, I hope to get
out at a reasonable hour).  But hang in there - fun stuff will be on the
way....

 

    Best regards pal,

             Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/edfbe882/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Tue May  6 10:07:59 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:07:59 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>

Shalom to all 
 
Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and  
explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I know  
the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would only 
ask  you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you know 
what to  do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of  the Passover in Egypt 
that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with  (2),  the Lamb that takes away to 
the sin of the world.  Although the two points have relevance I think they 
are not the same thing. That  is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb that 
takes away the sin are related,  but I think each is a phase in a two-phase 
process. That is the Passover as the  first phase is absolutely necessary, before 
the second phase can begin. 
 
Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt  
sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the  
first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the  death angel 
to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The  similarity I think 
in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God  to pass-over 
death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin  upon himself and 
nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn  away death through sin. 
But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin,  does not take sin away, and 
this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here  when he states if Yeshua 
did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the  pass-over of death is 
accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death  through sin upon himself, 
that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words  if Yeshua was not raised 
from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if  he was raised from the 
dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his life,  meaning his 
resurrected life.
 
This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God  that 
takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when  Yeshua 
took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his  pass-over 
of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse was  taken 
away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are saved by  
the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by the  
resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on  the role of the 
messiah when he stated the role of the messiah  is helper. And I think this 
is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and  savior, and the messiah is a 
helper in the process of God redeeming the world  through the messiah. Through 
the messiah God is taking away the sin of the  world.

But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I  
think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15, and 
 a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man brought 
sin  into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that God would  
use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again, and this 
time  get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua as the son of 
Adam,  had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have been offered any 
more than  Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage that Adam did not 
before he  sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin caused in all of its 
horrible  consequences. 
 
Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in  the tree 
of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God  
without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam got  it 
wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right one  step at 
a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just, that  is 
righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made  righteous. And 
how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our  inner parts and in 
our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of God  within is what 
takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made Just,  i.e. righteous 
that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of God, and  Yeshua is the 
helper in the process. 
 
Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as  a 
helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing  Yeshua 
did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will  think 
of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that  will 
tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away  the sin 
of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where the  
Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the Spirit of  
the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize the Torah 
that  is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and good. 
 
And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of  
stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit of  
the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten  
Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more  exceedingly 
glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the  Spirit of the 
living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character and  holiness the 
more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua walked in  the 
holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same holiness.  And in the 
process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way the Lamb as  the helper in 
God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the sin of the  world?  
 
Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can  
any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old  
Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you  input.
 
CB 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/885c5cd2/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 12:26:11 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 13:26:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Rav Kahane -  about Mashiach Ben Yosef
In-Reply-To: <02c101c8af89$deddfe50$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <ca7.26609aff.354e8974@aol.com>
	<02c101c8af89$deddfe50$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <8CA7DB56978C5AD-9C0-894@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>

Hey Marvin - 

???? Sure, it would be my pleasure.? I should be able to do it by next week, at the latest.? I'll try to be as detailed as I can.? Thanks - 
??????????Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah?? 


-----Original Message-----
From: mhyde <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 11:00 am
Subject: [Dialogue] Rav Kahane - about Mashiach Ben Yosef




Hanoch,

?

When you have time could you give us a long or short summary of the Rav?s thoughts on the Mashiach?? 

?

Thanks,

marvin

?




From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:37 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Dialogue] Remarks of Israel's Chief of Staff in Poland....


?


Hey John - 



?



????I thought I was the only one with THAT particular syndrome!!!? LOL? Let's just think of it as increasing our anticipation for what might help 'sustain' us (emails from Sat night - Friday) over the course of the week, after the beauty of Shabbat....



?



????My daughter Ayala was away this Shabbat so it was 'quiet' here, to say the least - but after spending hours reading what Rav Kahane had written about Mashiach Ben Yosef...I realized that I need that 'time to myself' in order to spend that time.....



?



????SO much to discuss....gotta find the time to post at least some of it....I already know that this week will have three nights (Mon-Wed) that will keep me at work until 11:00; although tomorrow (Sunday, I hope to get out at a reasonable hour).? But hang in there - fun stuff will be on the way....



?



????Best regards pal,



?????????????Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah









Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.





_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/29d29b85/attachment.html 

From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Tue May  6 13:33:06 2008
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 14:33:06 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] .The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
References: <cce.2d3bbf5a.35509285@aol.com>	<D2041694D6F14B31A98F38DE8D737B2E@DickLPC><076901c8aef7$1b4aef30$51e0cd90$@com>
	<8CA7D1015589A79-B68-1E1F@webmail-db19.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <04E738618B414911B46D9E1A4BFA015F@DickLPC>

There were many lost at the time of Yeshua being here. He was trying to get them back into the fold then. Even the corrupt Priesthood did not deter him from that. I believe he respected the office of the Temple times but not the person in charge.   Well if he mentioned the first, then there must be a second???????   I know Saul was all to the Gentile but Yeshua's role seemed to be for his breathern.  Confusion eh !  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Shalom to all - 

       I'd like it if someone could address Patty's point; were the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel," the 10 tribes?  If that's the case, then perhaps Yeshua had a plan to reach them, but ran out of time when the Romans tortured and killed him.  Or, am I just so "Lost Tribes-Centric" that I'm seeing EVERYTHING from that perspective.  

        Thoughts, comments??
                         Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Patty <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 5:29 pm
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Hi, but wasn?t Israel was scattered during that time among the ?nations?? And Yeshua said he came first for the ?Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?. 

  Patty

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 5:24 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

  "Of the World" to me means the Nations.  As Israel was separated from the nations it could not mean them ??  The Nations who did not have the Torah, Yeshua  kept it for them.   It is said, " that Blood is the life thereof" .   When he said, "Drink of my blood"
  he means , "learn of my life".  Just some more thoughts I have???   Dick L
    .Subject: . The Lamb

    Hey Ross and all:

    Could it be the case that the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world has no connection to his death, rather it is connected to his life, first of all his historical life by keeping perfectly the Torah of God, and then by his resurrected life, and through the power of the Spirit of the living God, sin is taken away by our being made just? God is Just and the justifier. In other words taking away sin, is becoming like our Father in heaven? And how did Yeshua become like our Father in Heaven? By keeping the Torah of God. Ross, I think you have hit on something quite important here, and I think we must work it on through.

    Take care

    CB .  




----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/7b5d723a/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 14:32:45 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 15:32:45 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!
In-Reply-To: <c87.2c14d90e.35512d04@aol.com>
References: <c87.2c14d90e.35512d04@aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CA7DC7181339A0-9C0-1372@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>

I don't know how I couldn't write clearly last night, but Yom HaZikaron starts tonight (Tuesday).....
??????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah

-----Original Message-----
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Mon, 5 May 2008 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] REMINDER: YOM HAZIKARON AND ROSH CHODESH THIS PM!!!




Hey folks - 

?

????Yom HaZikaron is actually on Wednesday in Israel, immediately prior to Yom Ha'Atzmaut, which this year will be celebrated on Wed night - Thursday, so as not to conflict with Shabbat.

?

???????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah 






Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/e9f0e779/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 14:48:57 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 15:48:57 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report
Message-ID: <8CA7DC95B9C6B2A-9C0-14D9@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom L'Kulchem,

?? Here are two quotes from the Lekarev Report for yesterday and today, both from the prophet Yoel (Joel):
??????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah

"And the L-rd roars out of Ziyyon, and utters his voice from Yerushalayim; and the heavens and the earth shake: But the L-rd will be a shelter for his people, and a stronghold for the children of Yisra'al."
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Joel 4:16

"Mizrayim shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate? wilderness , for the violence done to the children of Yehuda, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.? But Yehuda shall remain for ever, and Yerushalayim from generation to generation."
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Joel 4:19-20

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/fe62d593/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Tue May  6 14:55:13 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:55:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>
References: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>

Shalom,

 

I don't think redemption comes through either the blood of Jesus OR his
death, but rather by what he taught. When he was asked what must be done to
inherit eternal life, his answer was, "What does it say in the Torah? DO
THIS and you will live". 

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom to all 

 

Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and
explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I
know the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would
only ask you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you
know what to do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of the Passover in
Egypt that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with (2),  the Lamb that takes
away to the sin of the world. Although the two points have relevance I think
they are not the same thing. That is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb
that takes away the sin are related, but I think each is a phase in a
two-phase process. That is the Passover as the first phase is absolutely
necessary, before the second phase can begin. 

 

Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt
sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the
first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the death
angel to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The similarity
I think in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God to
pass-over death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin upon
himself and nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn away death
through sin. But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin, does not take
sin away, and this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here when he
states if Yeshua did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the pass-over
of death is accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death through sin
upon himself, that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words if
Yeshua was not raised from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if
he was raised from the dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his
life, meaning his resurrected life.

 

This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God that
takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when
Yeshua took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his
pass-over of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse
was taken away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are
saved by the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by
the resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on
the role of the messiah when he stated the role of the messiah is helper.
And I think this is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and savior, and
the messiah is a helper in the process of God redeeming the world through
the messiah. Through the messiah God is taking away the sin of the world.

But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I
think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15,
and a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man
brought sin into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that
God would use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again,
and this time get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua
as the son of Adam, had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have
been offered any more than Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage
that Adam did not before he sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin
caused in all of its horrible consequences. 

 

Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in the tree
of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God
without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam
got it wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right
one step at a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just,
that is righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made
righteous. And how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our
inner parts and in our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of
God within is what takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made
Just, i.e. righteous that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of
God, and Yeshua is the helper in the process. 

 

Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as a
helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing Yeshua
did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will
think of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that
will tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away
the sin of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where
the Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the
Spirit of the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize
the Torah that is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and
good. 

 

And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of
stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit
of the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten
Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more
exceedingly glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the
Spirit of the living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character
and holiness the more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua
walked in the holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same
holiness. And in the process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way
the Lamb as the helper in God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the
sin of the world?  

 

Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can
any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old
Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you
input.

 

CB 





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/843a4f18/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 15:01:47 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:01:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A prayer for the Israel Defense Forces
Message-ID: <8CA7DCB264E3521-9C0-15E4@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>







Invoking God's protection for the members of the Israel Defense Forces.





He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the air, and on the sea. 

May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor. 

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers? sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you. 

Now let us respond: Amen. 





Text courtesy of OU.org 


He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the air, and on the sea. 

May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor. 

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers? sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you. 

Now let us respond: Amen. 





Text courtesy of OU.org 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/3df2ac93/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 15:04:40 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:04:40 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Hazikaron - IDF Memorial Day
Message-ID: <8CA7DCB8D607F90-9C0-161C@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>

Click here: Yom Hazikaron Lechalelei Ma'arachot Yisrael - IDF Memorial Day... 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/be5fbd9e/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 15:08:15 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 16:08:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Yizkor Memorial Prayer
Message-ID: <8CA7DCC0DC0BF08-9C0-1664@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>


Click here: Yizkor for Members of the Israel Defense Force - OU.ORG 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/f8f83a00/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Tue May  6 17:45:11 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 08:45:11 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints
Message-ID: <4820DF77.2090505@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Chaverim,
                            in memory of the fallen of Yisrael, please 
watch this uplifting and sobering video from Rabbi Lazer Brody.
May their sacrificed lives be remembered in eternity and never 
forgotten.  May their lives that were tragically cut short never be 
devalued by the current administration of Yisrael. The soil that drank 
their blood cries out to HaShem.

LEST WE FORGET.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of  HaShem.
JOE.

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/05/footprints.html


From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 17:54:43 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 18:54:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints
In-Reply-To: <4820DF77.2090505@westnet.com.au>
References: <4820DF77.2090505@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <8CA7DE34ED5CCF7-AF4-CF3@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>


Hi Joe - 



?? Thanks for passing this on, it is indeed very powerful....we've lost so many wonderful young men and women.? May G-d Avenge Their Blood!

??????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah

???????????????????? 


-----Original Message-----
From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 6:45 pm
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints



Shalom Chaverim,?
? in memory of the fallen of Yisrael, please watch this uplifting and sobering video from Rabbi Lazer Brody.?
May their sacrificed lives be remembered in eternity and never forgotten. May their lives that were tragically cut short never be devalued by the current administration of Yisrael. The soil that drank their blood cries out to HaShem.?
?
LEST WE FORGET.?
?
Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.?
JOE.?
?
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/05/footprints.html?
_______________________________________________?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/9394b683/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 18:00:30 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:30:30 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com> <482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>

Bless you Cornie,
Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our Father Creator and to His Torah of Life.
Shalom,
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cornie Reimer 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


  Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.

  Cornie

  RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: 
    Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables.

    http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

    Ross K. Nichols 
    www.RootsofFaith.org







----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM
  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/8b4eb05b/attachment.html 

From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 18:15:21 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:15:21 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com> <482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca>
	<B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <8CA7DE630CAABD8-AF4-E1C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>

Hey Cornie & Jessica,

????????? First of all, we ALL have to hang in there, we haven't had a 'family reunion' for almost 3,000 years.? And yes, there WILL be bumps on the way - that's for sure.? But if we surrender ourselves to HaShem and HIS will, and pursue the truth, based on that, we'll be okay.? But it's to HaShem that we need to turn to for guidance, not a doctrine or belief that we've held, simply because, well, that's what we 'feel' like at that given moment.? 

???????? And?in terms of Ross being a 'Torah Saint,' well, frankly - that's not a title I had considered for him, yet.? I was still thinking along the terms, Minister, or even better - 'Rabbi/Minister' - which will further confuse everyone!? 

??????? Take care everyone.....
???????????????????????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah

-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 7:00 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son



Bless you Cornie,

Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our Father Creator and to His Torah of Life.

Shalom,

Jessica

?


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Cornie Reimer 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son



Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.

Cornie

RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: 

Some time back I wrote this article.? Some of you have seen it.? In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables.

?

http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

?

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org






Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


_______________________________________________
  


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM
  





_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/9f693b22/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 18:19:35 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:49:35 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints
In-Reply-To: <4820DF77.2090505@westnet.com.au>
References: <4820DF77.2090505@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <B08BE162A10447CFAEFFE44375EC5B2D@JessicaPC>

Joe - I am moved to tears by  this video and the truth it reveals. May our 
prayers also include the innocent victims in all of these dreadful wars, 
especially the children.
May He come speedily,
Jessica


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:15 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints


> Shalom Chaverim,
>                            in memory of the fallen of Yisrael, please 
> watch this uplifting and sobering video from Rabbi Lazer Brody.
> May their sacrificed lives be remembered in eternity and never forgotten. 
> May their lives that were tragically cut short never be devalued by the 
> current administration of Yisrael. The soil that drank their blood cries 
> out to HaShem.
>
> LEST WE FORGET.
>
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of  HaShem.
> JOE.
>
> http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/05/footprints.html
> _______________________________________________
> 



From rndavar at aol.com  Tue May  6 18:25:14 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:25:14 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <8CA7DE630CAABD8-AF4-E1C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
	<482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca><B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC><8CA7DE630CAABD8-AF4-E1C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <80320373-1210116302-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1663408062-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Saint Nichols sounds too much like the guy in the red suit. Let's just think of me as a bible student, but in many ways we are all "technically" saints or "holy ones". And by the way, I am officially ordained through UIWU as a minister.  Shalom, Ross
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com

Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:15:21 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


Hey Cornie & Jessica,
 
 ????????? First of all, we ALL have to hang in there, we haven't had a 'family reunion' for almost 3,000 years.? And yes, there WILL be bumps on the way - that's for sure.? But if we surrender ourselves to HaShem and HIS will, and pursue the truth, based on that, we'll be okay.? But it's to HaShem that we need to turn to for guidance, not a doctrine or belief that we've held, simply because, well, that's what we 'feel' like at that given moment.? 
 
 ???????? And?in terms of Ross being a 'Torah Saint,' well, frankly - that's not a title I had considered for him, yet.? I was still thinking along the terms, Minister, or even better - 'Rabbi/Minister' - which will further confuse everyone!? 
 
 ??????? Take care everyone.....
 ???????????????????????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 7:00 pm
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
 
 
 
Bless you Cornie, 
Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our Father Creator and to His Torah of Life. 
Shalom, 
Jessica 
? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>  
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son 

 Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.
 
 Cornie
 
 RNDAVAR at aol.com <mailto:RNDAVAR at aol.com>  wrote: 
Some time back I wrote this article.? Some of you have seen it.? In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables. 
? 
http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm <http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm> 
? 
Ross K. Nichols 
 www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----------------
 Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . 
----------------
 _______________________________________________ 
----------------
 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM 
 
----------------
 
 _______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________ 

----------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________


From youngbarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 18:30:58 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:30:58 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <80320373-1210116302-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1663408062-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>	<482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca><B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC><8CA7DE630CAABD8-AF4-E1C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>
	<80320373-1210116302-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1663408062-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8CA7DE85F71B1B6-AF4-F0C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>


That's right!? I had forgotten....okay, so now I have a favorite Minister - you, Ross

John Hagee is my favorite Pastor....Now all I need is to choose a favorite Rabbi....hmmm...maybe one of my pals in Israel...we shall see...

??????????????? Hanoch? the Lil lion of Judah



??????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????? 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Nichols <rndavar at aol.com>
To: Dialogue List <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son




Saint Nichols sounds too much like the guy in the red suit. Let's just think of 
me as a bible student, but in many ways we are all "technically" saints or "holy 
ones". And by the way, I am officially ordained through UIWU as a minister.  
Shalom, Ross
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: youngbarzel at aol.com

Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:15:21 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


Hey Cornie & Jessica,
 
 ????????? First of all, we ALL have to hang in there, we haven't had a 'family 
reunion' for almost 3,000 years.? And yes, there WILL be bumps on the way - 
that's for sure.? But if we surrender ourselves to HaShem and HIS will, and 
pursue the truth, based on that, we'll be okay.? But it's to HaShem that we need 
to turn to for guidance, not a doctrine or belief that we've held, simply 
because, well, that's what we 'feel' like at that given moment.? 
 
 ???????? And?in terms of Ross being a 'Torah Saint,' well, frankly - that's not 
a title I had considered for him, yet.? I was still thinking along the terms, 
Minister, or even better - 'Rabbi/Minister' - which will further confuse 
everyone!? 
 
 ??????? Take care everyone.....
 ???????????????????????????????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 7:00 pm
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
 
 
 
Bless you Cornie, 
Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our Father 
Creator and to His Torah of Life. 
Shalom, 
Jessica 
? 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>  
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>  
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son 

 Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story of 
the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to grasp, or 
recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my 
desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite 
persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just 
simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really make sense to a 
point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. 
As my time is so limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it 
up. You must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.
 
 Cornie
 
 RNDAVAR at aol.com <mailto:RNDAVAR at aol.com>  wrote: 
Some time back I wrote this article.? Some of you have seen it.? In many ways it 
captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables. 
? 
http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm <http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm> 

? 
Ross K. Nichols 
 www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 
 
 
 
 
 
 
----------------
 Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL 
Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> . 
----------------
 _______________________________________________ 
----------------
 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / 
Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM 
 
----------------
 
 _______________________________________________
 
_______________________________________________ 

----------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com <http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> 
: America's #1 Mapping Site. _______________________________________________




_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/425eb826/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 19:15:44 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:45:44 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Yizkor Memorial Prayer
In-Reply-To: <8CA7DCC0DC0BF08-9C0-1664@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA7DCC0DC0BF08-9C0-1664@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <2DC84FC793D24F04B493FC8870DB268A@JessicaPC>

Thank you Hanoch, much appreciated.
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:38 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] The Yizkor Memorial Prayer


  Click here: Yizkor for Members of the Israel Defense Force - OU.ORG 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/aa3822c8/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Tue May  6 19:36:08 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Tue, 06 May 2008 19:36:08 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com> <482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca>
	<B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <4820F978.70007@gninc.ca>

Shalom Jessica
Thank you Jessica for those encouraging  kind words. I wrote what i did 
this morning before going to work. I feel like i am truly in the potters 
hand. As of myself I am not going anywhere, or maybe in circles. He is 
testing me, I know that He loves even me, and something that I can not 
explain has been a special comfort to me all through the day, it seems 
although I would like to lean on the arm of flesh, (fellow humans) to 
show me the way. But no matter what may be in store for me. I feel 
HaShem Abba Father wants me to have a simple trusting faith, (Emunah) in 
Him to guide my footsteps to what is real truth.

Shalom Cornie



Jessica wrote:
> /Bless you Cornie,/
> /Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to 
> our Father Creator and to His Torah of Life./
> /Shalom,/
> /Jessica/
>  
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
>     *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
>
>     Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in
>     this story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very
>     painful for me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out
>     the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for
>     nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite persuaded that
>     you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just
>     simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really
>     make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly
>     reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if
>     you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must
>     surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.
>
>     Cornie
>
>     RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote:
>>     Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it. 
>>     In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of
>>     one of Yeshua's parables.
>>      
>>     http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm
>>      
>>     *Ross K. Nichols *
>>     www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
>>     favorites at AOL Food
>>     <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>       
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     Checked by AVG. 
>>     Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM
>>       
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1417 - Release Date: 06/05/2008 8:07 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/df9dc295/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 19:58:28 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:28:28 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <4820F978.70007@gninc.ca>
References: <ccd.32b8b8b7.35512f51@aol.com>
	<482053BD.7070200@gninc.ca><B7A40C675482456BB257E7DFC19475E4@JessicaPC>
	<4820F978.70007@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <A70D57BF1ED74383B575F1A11EC83C1E@JessicaPC>

That's it in a nutshell Cornie,
Blessings of Peace
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cornie Reimer 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


  Shalom Jessica
  Thank you Jessica for those encouraging  kind words. I wrote what i did this morning before going to work. I feel like i am truly in the potters hand. As of myself I am not going anywhere, or maybe in circles. He is testing me, I know that He loves even me, and something that I can not explain has been a special comfort to me all through the day, it seems although I would like to lean on the arm of flesh, (fellow humans) to show me the way. But no matter what may be in store for me. I feel HaShem Abba Father wants me to have a simple trusting faith, (Emunah) in Him to guide my footsteps to what is real truth.

  Shalom Cornie



  Jessica wrote: 
    Bless you Cornie,
    Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our Father Creator and to His Torah of Life.
    Shalom,
    Jessica

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Cornie Reimer 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son


      Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if you are really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must surely have met with a lot of opposition in your life.

      Cornie

      RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: 
        Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's parables.

        http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

        Ross K. Nichols 
        www.RootsofFaith.org







------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008 6:01 AM
  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      _______________________________________________

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1417 - Release Date: 06/05/2008 8:07 AM
  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/10ae7e88/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 20:34:11 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:04:11 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Miracles of Hanit
Message-ID: <FF6F779042C546AC92B584A35B1B391E@JessicaPC>


Shalom Everyone,
You may already know this story, but it's worth repeating, especially today.
Brachot v'Shalom,
Jessica
(from: Rav Lazer Brody)
The Miracles of Hanit
17 October, 2006. A young Israeli Naval sergeant boarded the northbound train in Tel Aviv. I was on my way to a present a lecture in the Haifa area and he was returning to his base in the Haifa port. He sat down across from me, looking at me intently while I was learning my Gemorra. I looked up at him, smiled, said "Shalom aleichem!" 

He sighed deeply, as if relieved, and sheepishly asked, "Can I talk to you, Rav?" 

"Of course," I answered, asking him how he knows that I'm a "rav". He said that he heard me eulogize one of his fallen friends during the recent war. The sailor had a relatively new beard, an almost new knitted kippa on his head, and the beautifully pure innocence in his eyes of a new Ba'al Tshuva. To make a long story short, he was a crewman on board the Israeli Navy ship Hanit (Hebrew for bayonet) when it was hit by a missile of shore in Beirut. 

The sailor, who we'll call Moshe, began to relate the dozens of miracles that happened aboard the Hanit the night that it was hit. "It was Friday night. Usually, the crew would eat Friday night dinner in two shifts. But this time, since we were in a war zone, our three religious crewmen went to Lt. Col. A - the skipper - and begged that we all need Hashem's help. The first miracle is that the skipper agreed to leave only 4 sailors on the bridge, and allowed the whole entire crew to pray together; we piled into the chapel, and said a lengthy mincha and Kabbalat Shabbat. I was bored and wanted to eat quickly then catch a few hours sleep, because I had the midnight watch. But, I stayed with the rest of the crew. Then, all of us had a Shabbat meal together - 15 different sailors said Kiddush, each in the custom of his fathers; I'm talking about guys that aren't (weren't) even religious! The meal was drawn out - I had a headache and was dying to sleep. The religious guys started to say the grace after the meal, and BOOOFF! The missile hit, but on the opposite end of the craft. It should have sank the boat, but it hit a crane right above the chopper landing pad. What a miracle! If that's not enough, the helicopter-refueling tank - filled to the gills with chopper fuel - didn't explode despite the fact that the whole end of the boat was burned..."

At least twenty other crewmen aboard the Hanit should have been killed, but they were saved by Shabbat dinner on the other end of the ship. The four on the bridge all lost their lives.

Moshe had beads of sweat on his forehead; tears glistened in his eyes. "The newspapers don't write about the miracles that we all saw. I ran to my bunk on the deck right below the landing pad. It was charcoal; my metal bunk was completely melted down and all my possessions were ashes. If I hadn't been detained in the chapel and in the dining hall for Shabbat meal, I'd have been charcoal too. I haven't stopped thanking Hashem since - I've changed my life..."

Moshe continued with more miracles, including the engine room burnt to a crisp but a pair of tefillin was found unscathed. If that's not enough, amidst the embers of destruction, the sailors found a Book of Psalms - also unscathed - opened to Psalm 124. Read Psalm 124 and your hair will stand up!

The train was nearing my station, so I gave Moshe a blessing and a fatherly embrace, and we parted. The Hanit took a direct hit from a Hizbulla missile, but Moshe has turned the navy's setback into a victory.

*******

Every day, I meet more and more "Moshes". Unlike the misguided and corrupt Israeli leaders, the Israeli on the street - especially the soldiers and the reservists - are diamonds looking to be polished, and have started to ask the real questions in life. They're looking for emuna. Were it not for the wars here, they wouldn't have bothered. 

The whole purpose of the wars is to bring us closer to Hashem. Once we get close to Hashem on our own initiative, Hashem won't have to send us wars anymore, amen. I'd much prefer dancing with Moshiach to eulogizing fallen comrades.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/fe73f877/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 22:26:23 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 12:56:23 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Existence is One, Many, and Him
Message-ID: <D0C40BDE5AF34BE88648EAE8E7950C1B@JessicaPC>

Hi Guys,
I just wanted to share this little gem' with you. The sentiment in this post by Rabbi Gutman could apply perfectly to all the members of this Dialogue.
Blessings
Jessica

Existence is One, Many, and Him - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 5/06/2008 12:10:00 AM ET 

by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths


The sunlight rests upon the water. When it is still, there will be a single, bright ball of light bouncing off the water.

When it is agitated, there will be many small reflections ricocheting off the water. Each reflection is somewhat different than the others. Each has its own location, its own size, and shape, and each faces in its own slightly different direction. Looking at the reflections we see that they are many.

When we raise our sights, even a fraction of an inch up off the water, we see that all those reflections are actually a single light. The reflections are many. The light that they are made of is one.

Both of these perspectives are true. The reflections are many, and their light is one. The error comes when we mistakenly call the reflections lights, thinking that there is more than one light present. There is always only a single light coming from the sun. This one light radiates in all directions, fills the sky, and rests on everything in its path.

This same understanding can be applied to our view of the world around us. There is the multiple perspective, that is, when we are focusing on the vast distinctions that are found within creation, and there is the singular perspective, when we raise our sights even a tiny bit, and recognize that the entire creation is actually a single, one.

The importance of this information is to know that we all interact with the rest of the creation, even the creation that is beyond our immediate presence. When there is corruption in the world, we can not say, "Since I am not doing it, and since it is not happening to me, it does not bother me." It does bother us, even when we are unaware that it exists. Like pollution in the air, whether we realize it or not, it reaches our lungs. Corruption not only reaches our physical lungs, it reaches our spiritual lungs, too.

Conversely, whatever good we do, no matter how insignificant it may seem to us, also goes out into the world, and helps to raise the world's spiritual scale.

This discussion of perspectives has been addressing the nature of the creation in relationship to itself. Seeing and understanding these perspectives shows us that the things in the world, the buildings, objects, and people, are both one and many. From the higher perspective, we realize that it is all one creation. From the lower perspective, we see that the creation has many distinct objects within it.

Considering both of these perspectives, we see that the creation is all one, but it is not all the same. This single, universal one is not made up of the objects within it, but rather, the objects within it are made out of the one. A pie that is cut into pieces is not made out of its pieces. The pieces are made out of the pie.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/8d2eb59e/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Tue May  6 22:32:45 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:32:45 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request
Message-ID: <bbe.29ac22de.35527cdd@aol.com>

 
URGENT - MERCAZ HA'RAV STUDENT TEHILLIM  


Urgent Tefila for one of the wounded Merkaz HaRav  Students  







Please  say a quick Tehillim (Psalms)for Naftali ben Gila,one of the  
students wounded in the Mercaz HaRav massacre, whose condition  is drastically 
worsening.
Please forward immediately to at  least 5 people


Please Daven (Pray) for him. He  suffered a stroke yesterday...15 yrs  old.












**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/e8cf115d/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Tue May  6 22:49:03 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:19:03 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request
In-Reply-To: <bbe.29ac22de.35527cdd@aol.com>
References: <bbe.29ac22de.35527cdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BBDD2B3795DA4399949DA38C36383B10@JessicaPC>

  May HaShem have mercy on the innocent.

  Psalm 121
  A Song of Ascents.
   1[a]I WILL lift up my eyes to the hills [around Jerusalem, to sacred Mount Zion and Mount Moriah]--From whence shall my help come?(A)
      2My help comes from the Lord, Who made heaven and earth.

      3He will not allow your foot to slip or to be moved; He Who keeps you will not slumber.(B)

      4Behold, He who keeps Israel will neither slumber nor sleep.

      5The Lord is your keeper; the Lord is your shade on your right hand [the side not carrying a shield].(C)

      6The sun shall not smite you by day, nor the moon by night.(D)

      7The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your life.

      8The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forevermore.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:02 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request


  URGENT - MERCAZ HA'RAV STUDENT TEHILLIM 


  Urgent Tefila for one of the wounded Merkaz HaRav Students 






                     Please say a quick Tehillim (Psalms)for Naftali ben Gila,one of the students wounded in the Mercaz HaRav massacre, whose condition is drastically worsening.
                  Please forward immediately to at least 5 people


                  Please Daven (Pray) for him. He suffered a stroke yesterday...15 yrs old.


                 
       






------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/3771035f/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 22:51:52 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:51:52 -0500
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
Message-ID: <012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I
found it "buried" amidst over a hundred others.  I think that you pose an
excellent question.not sure I have the answer.perhaps the actions of the
people will have an influence as they did before.  

 

According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the
people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways..so perhaps it will happen
again?  Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice
to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not
necessary.I don't have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the
answers. 

 

These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the "ideal" will
of HaShem?  And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He
did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought
them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or
sacrifices.instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and
they would be His people. 

 

But what did  they do instead?  The text continues in a chilling
account.they did abominable things, including burning their sons and
daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it
come into His Heart!  This language in very strong!  

 

This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well.something that is
abhorrent to HaShem.  Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE OTHER!
There is no mediator between G-d and man!  This is in Torah, and I just
don't see how we can get around it.  It is repeated over and over in Isaiah
43, 44, 45.  As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his
teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot
agree that his blood paid for my sins.I am responsible for my own sins, as I
believe we all are.  G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my
Redeemer.

 

As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that "they will not hurt
of destroy on my Holy Mountain."

 

I really don't want to step on anybody's toes or worse, anybody's heart, but
I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be
the truth of Torah.  And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do
love and care for all of you.

 

Shalom and Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Hi Betty and All,

 

What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the
sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition.

 

No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.

 

This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today.

 

Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:


Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua,
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem.


 


However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations.


 


In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin?


 


And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just
show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On
the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that
atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard
questions are set before us.


 


Take care


 


CB     

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/47793768/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 22:57:29 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:57:29 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>
	<001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>
References: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>
	<001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>

GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

Thank you so much, Patty,

Pat  (what's up with all these Patricia's on this list????)

   


From: Patty 
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:55 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Shalom,

 

I don't think redemption comes through either the blood of Jesus OR his death, but rather by what he taught. When he was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life, his answer was, "What does it say in the Torah? DO THIS and you will live". 

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom to all 

 

Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I know the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would only ask you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you know what to do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of the Passover in Egypt that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with (2),  the Lamb that takes away to the sin of the world. Although the two points have relevance I think they are not the same thing. That is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb that takes away the sin are related, but I think each is a phase in a two-phase process. That is the Passover as the first phase is absolutely necessary, before the second phase can begin. 

 

Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the death angel to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The similarity I think in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God to pass-over death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin upon himself and nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn away death through sin. But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin, does not take sin away, and this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here when he states if Yeshua did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the pass-over of death is accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death through sin upon himself, that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words if Yeshua was not raised from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if he was raised from the dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his life, meaning his resurrected life.

 

This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when Yeshua took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his pass-over of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse was taken away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are saved by the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by the resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on the role of the messiah when he stated the role of the messiah is helper. And I think this is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and savior, and the messiah is a helper in the process of God redeeming the world through the messiah. Through the messiah God is taking away the sin of the world.

But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15, and a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man brought sin into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that God would use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again, and this time get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua as the son of Adam, had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have been offered any more than Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage that Adam did not before he sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin caused in all of its horrible consequences. 

 

Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in the tree of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam got it wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right one step at a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just, that is righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made righteous. And how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our inner parts and in our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of God within is what takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made Just, i.e. righteous that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of God, and Yeshua is the helper in the process. 

 

Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as a helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing Yeshua did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will think of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that will tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away the sin of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where the Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the Spirit of the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize the Torah that is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and good. 

 

And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit of the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more exceedingly glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the Spirit of the living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character and holiness the more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua walked in the holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same holiness. And in the process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way the Lamb as the helper in God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the sin of the world?  

 

Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you input.

 

CB 






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/c2cc0054/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 23:02:11 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:02:11 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request
In-Reply-To: <bbe.29ac22de.35527cdd@aol.com>
References: <bbe.29ac22de.35527cdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS776D4E42CA5DD328A7019BAD10@phx.gbl>

Done, Hanoch.  Thank you. ~ Pat


From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request


URGENT - MERCAZ HA'RAV STUDENT TEHILLIM 


Urgent Tefila for one of the wounded Merkaz HaRav Students 






                   Please say a quick Tehillim (Psalms)for Naftali ben Gila,one of the students wounded in the Mercaz HaRav massacre, whose condition is drastically worsening.
                Please forward immediately to at least 5 people


                Please Daven (Pray) for him. He suffered a stroke yesterday...15 yrs old.


               
     






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/5f09224c/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 23:07:10 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:07:10 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <014a01c8aff7$d2d5a9a0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Yes!  To both Patty and Pat!  We will have to start using your Hebrew names,
girls!  Seriously, I think I just answered an earlier post from you Patty
that said much of the same thing regarding redemption and blood, but you
said it so much more succinctly!  Torah is what Yeshua referred to and if we
follow Yeshua, then that what I believe we must continually refer to for
answers to our tough questions, even though what we find may be in
opposition to what we have been taught all of our lives.

 

I would have to agree on the "eating my flesh" and "drinking my blood" ideas
that you put forth, Pat.  I think we have to remember that Yeshua was a Jew
and I cannot see any righteous devout Jew such as Yeshua ever making such a
statement!

 

My thoughts.again.not of offend, but just to speak honestly as I understand
it.

 

Love and Blessings!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:57 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a
couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is
what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught
them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

 

Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really
can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That
strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from
"Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of
Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their
despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They
joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I
just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such
barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just
can't see him doing it.

 

Thank you so much, Patty,

 

Pat  (what's up with all these Patricia's on this list????)

 

   

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:55 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom,

 

I don't think redemption comes through either the blood of Jesus OR his
death, but rather by what he taught. When he was asked what must be done to
inherit eternal life, his answer was, "What does it say in the Torah? DO
THIS and you will live". 

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom to all 

 

Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and
explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I
know the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would
only ask you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you
know what to do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of the Passover in
Egypt that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with (2),  the Lamb that takes
away to the sin of the world. Although the two points have relevance I think
they are not the same thing. That is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb
that takes away the sin are related, but I think each is a phase in a
two-phase process. That is the Passover as the first phase is absolutely
necessary, before the second phase can begin. 

 

Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt
sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the
first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the death
angel to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The similarity
I think in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God to
pass-over death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin upon
himself and nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn away death
through sin. But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin, does not take
sin away, and this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here when he
states if Yeshua did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the pass-over
of death is accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death through sin
upon himself, that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words if
Yeshua was not raised from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if
he was raised from the dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his
life, meaning his resurrected life.

 

This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God that
takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when
Yeshua took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his
pass-over of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse
was taken away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are
saved by the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by
the resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on
the role of the messiah when he stated the role of the messiah is helper.
And I think this is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and savior, and
the messiah is a helper in the process of God redeeming the world through
the messiah. Through the messiah God is taking away the sin of the world.

But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I
think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15,
and a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man
brought sin into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that
God would use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again,
and this time get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua
as the son of Adam, had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have
been offered any more than Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage
that Adam did not before he sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin
caused in all of its horrible consequences. 

 

Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in the tree
of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God
without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam
got it wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right
one step at a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just,
that is righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made
righteous. And how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our
inner parts and in our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of
God within is what takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made
Just, i.e. righteous that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of
God, and Yeshua is the helper in the process. 

 

Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as a
helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing Yeshua
did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will
think of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that
will tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away
the sin of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where
the Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the
Spirit of the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize
the Torah that is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and
good. 

 

And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of
stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit
of the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten
Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more
exceedingly glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the
Spirit of the living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character
and holiness the more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua
walked in the holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same
holiness. And in the process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way
the Lamb as the helper in God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the
sin of the world?  

 

Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can
any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old
Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you
input.

 

CB 

 

  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/6f39ca52/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 23:16:19 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:16:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out this great 1 minute movie: Israel: Then and Now
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS68CC5B7B602B1319E0F57BAD10@phx.gbl>


 
 Aish.com's New short Movie: Israel: Then and Now 
 http://www.aish.com/movies/60Years.asp

 


From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 23:19:20 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:19:20 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS776D4E42CA5DD328A7019BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <015b01c8aff9$8606a8c0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thank you, Hanoch!  Done!

>From Psalm 103 

 

"Bless the L-RD O my soul; and all that is within me bless His Holy Name.
Bless the L-RD O my soul, and forget not all His benefits:  Who forgives all
Thy iniquities; who heals all they diseases, who redeems thy life from the
pit; who encircles thee with love and compassion; who satisfies thy old age
with good; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."

 

May this blessed young man receive all these blessings direct from HaShem
and may Hashem look down upon him in compassion, reverse the conditions of
the stroke and grant him a refuah shlema!!!

 

Betty/Elisheva

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request

 

Done, Hanoch.  Thank you. ~ Pat

 

From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:32 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] An URGENT Prayer Request

 

URGENT - MERCAZ HA'RAV STUDENT TEHILLIM 

 

Urgent Tefila for one of the wounded Merkaz HaRav Students 

 


 

 


   Please say a quick Tehillim (Psalms)for Naftali ben Gila,one of the
students wounded in the Mercaz HaRav massacre, whose condition is
drastically worsening.
Please forward immediately to at least 5 people


Please Daven (Pray) for him. He suffered a stroke yesterday...15 yrs old.







  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/f150acb6/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 23:28:55 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:28:55 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Existence is One, Many, and Him
In-Reply-To: <D0C40BDE5AF34BE88648EAE8E7950C1B@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <016b01c8affa$dcf72b90$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Again, Jessica, a beautiful contribution!  Thank you!

 

Love and Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:26 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Existence is One, Many, and Him

 


Hi Guys,


I just wanted to share this little gem' with you. The sentiment in this post
by Rabbi Gutman could apply perfectly to all the members of this Dialogue.

Blessings

Jessica

 

Existence is One, Many, and Him - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 5/06/2008
12:10:00 AM ET 

by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths <http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/> 


The sunlight rests upon the water. When it is still, there will be a single,
bright ball of light bouncing off the water.

When it is agitated, there will be many small reflections ricocheting off
the water. Each reflection is somewhat different than the others. Each has
its own location, its own size, and shape, and each faces in its own
slightly different direction. Looking at the reflections we see that they
are many.

When we raise our sights, even a fraction of an inch up off the water, we
see that all those reflections are actually a single light. The reflections
are many. The light that they are made of is one.

Both of these perspectives are true. The reflections are many, and their
light is one. The error comes when we mistakenly call the reflections
lights, thinking that there is more than one light present. There is always
only a single light coming from the sun. This one light radiates in all
directions, fills the sky, and rests on everything in its path.

This same understanding can be applied to our view of the world around us.
There is the multiple perspective, that is, when we are focusing on the vast
distinctions that are found within creation, and there is the singular
perspective, when we raise our sights even a tiny bit, and recognize that
the entire creation is actually a single, one.

The importance of this information is to know that we all interact with the
rest of the creation, even the creation that is beyond our immediate
presence. When there is corruption in the world, we can not say, "Since I am
not doing it, and since it is not happening to me, it does not bother me."
It does bother us, even when we are unaware that it exists. Like pollution
in the air, whether we realize it or not, it reaches our lungs. Corruption
not only reaches our physical lungs, it reaches our spiritual lungs, too.

Conversely, whatever good we do, no matter how insignificant it may seem to
us, also goes out into the world, and helps to raise the world's spiritual
scale.

This discussion of perspectives has been addressing the nature of the
creation in relationship to itself. Seeing and understanding these
perspectives shows us that the things in the world, the buildings, objects,
and people, are both one and many. From the higher perspective, we realize
that it is all one creation. From the lower perspective, we see that the
creation has many distinct objects within it.

Considering both of these perspectives, we see that the creation is all one,
but it is not all the same. This single, universal one is not made up of the
objects within it, but rather, the objects within it are made out of the
one. A pie that is cut into pieces is not made out of its pieces. The pieces
are made out of the pie.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/e4becaa6/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Tue May  6 23:32:02 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:32:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report
In-Reply-To: <8CA7DC95B9C6B2A-9C0-14D9@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA7DC95B9C6B2A-9C0-14D9@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS2BA2AC870944A3EEB3AF7BAD10@phx.gbl>

AMEIN!


From: youngbarzel at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:48 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report


Shalom L'Kulchem,

   Here are two quotes from the Lekarev Report for yesterday and today, both from the prophet Yoel (Joel):
                Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

"And the L-rd roars out of Ziyyon, and utters his voice from Yerushalayim; and the heavens and the earth shake: But the L-rd will be a shelter for his people, and a stronghold for the children of Yisra'al."
                                                                                  Joel 4:16

"Mizrayim shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate  wilderness , for the violence done to the children of Yehuda, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.  But Yehuda shall remain for ever, and Yerushalayim from generation to generation."
                                                                                 Joel 4:19-20



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/97da3754/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Tue May  6 23:37:14 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 23:37:14 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS2BA2AC870944A3EEB3AF7BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <018101c8affc$067995b0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Very fitting, Brother Hanoch, as usual, especially in view of the next few
days memorial and celebration!  Thank you much.

 

Shalom and blessings to you and all of Yehuda and Yisrael!!!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:32 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report

 

AMEIN!

 

From: youngbarzel at aol.com 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:48 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report

 

Shalom L'Kulchem,

   Here are two quotes from the Lekarev Report for yesterday and today, both
from the prophet Yoel (Joel):
                Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

"And the L-rd roars out of Ziyyon, and utters his voice from Yerushalayim;
and the heavens and the earth shake: But the L-rd will be a shelter for his
people, and a stronghold for the children of Yisra'al."
 
Joel 4:16

"Mizrayim shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate  wilderness ,
for the violence done to the children of Yehuda, because they have shed
innocent blood in their land.  But Yehuda shall remain for ever, and
Yerushalayim from generation to generation."
 
Joel 4:19-20

  _____  

Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site. 

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080506/3a11eca2/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed May  7 00:21:56 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:21:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints
In-Reply-To: <B08BE162A10447CFAEFFE44375EC5B2D@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <01d801c8b002$449185f0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Joe, this was most a most beautiful portrayal of the courage of these brave
young men and women who are sworn to protect HaShem's chosen land and the
constant reminder that HaShem is with them...even when we or even they
cannot understand or see it.  And yes, Jessica, we do need to also remember
all the innocent victims, especially the children!

May Hashem indeed come quickly,

Betty/Elisheva

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints

Joe - I am moved to tears by  this video and the truth it reveals. May our 
prayers also include the innocent victims in all of these dreadful wars, 
especially the children.
May He come speedily,
Jessica


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:15 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] Lazer Beams: Footprints


> Shalom Chaverim,
>                            in memory of the fallen of Yisrael, please 
> watch this uplifting and sobering video from Rabbi Lazer Brody.
> May their sacrificed lives be remembered in eternity and never forgotten. 
> May their lives that were tragically cut short never be devalued by the 
> current administration of Yisrael. The soil that drank their blood cries 
> out to HaShem.
>
> LEST WE FORGET.
>
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of  HaShem.
> JOE.
>
> http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/05/footprints.html
> _______________________________________________
> 

_______________________________________________



From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Wed May  7 00:30:26 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:30:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Existence is One, Many, and Him
In-Reply-To: <016b01c8affa$dcf72b90$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <D0C40BDE5AF34BE88648EAE8E7950C1B@JessicaPC>
	<016b01c8affa$dcf72b90$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805062230m2ed3d4bbgefba5354e67a1c0f@mail.gmail.com>

Wow!  Thank you, Jessica.

Kim

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:28 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>  Again, Jessica, a beautiful contribution!  Thank you!
>
>
>
> Love and Blessings,
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Jessica
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:26 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Existence is One, Many, and Him
>
>
>  *Hi Guys,*
>
> *I just wanted to share this little gem' with you. The sentiment in this
> post by Rabbi Gutman could apply perfectly to all the members of this
> Dialogue.*
>
> *Blessings*
>
> *Jessica*
>
>
>
> Existence is One, Many, and Him *- - - - - - - posted by Akiva - -
> 5/06/2008 12:10:00 AM ET*
>
> *by Reb Gutman Locks at Mystical Paths<http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/>
> *
>
>
> The sunlight rests upon the water. When it is still, there will be a
> single, bright ball of light bouncing off the water.
>
> When it is agitated, there will be many small reflections ricocheting off
> the water. Each reflection is somewhat different than the others. Each has
> its own location, its own size, and shape, and each faces in its own
> slightly different direction. Looking at the reflections we see that they
> are many.
>
> When we raise our sights, even a fraction of an inch up off the water, we
> see that all those reflections are actually a single light. The reflections
> are many. The light that they are made of is one.
>
> Both of these perspectives are true. The reflections are many, and their
> light is one. The error comes when we mistakenly call the reflections
> lights, thinking that there is more than one light present. There is always
> only a single light coming from the sun. This one light radiates in all
> directions, fills the sky, and rests on everything in its path.
>
> This same understanding can be applied to our view of the world around us.
> There is the multiple perspective, that is, when we are focusing on the vast
> distinctions that are found within creation, and there is the singular
> perspective, when we raise our sights even a tiny bit, and recognize that
> the entire creation is actually a single, one.
>
> The importance of this information is to know that we all interact with
> the rest of the creation, even the creation that is beyond our immediate
> presence. When there is corruption in the world, we can not say, "Since I am
> not doing it, and since it is not happening to me, it does not bother me."
> It does bother us, even when we are unaware that it exists. Like pollution
> in the air, whether we realize it or not, it reaches our lungs. Corruption
> not only reaches our physical lungs, it reaches our spiritual lungs, too.
>
> Conversely, whatever good we do, no matter how insignificant it may seem
> to us, also goes out into the world, and helps to raise the world's
> spiritual scale.
>
> This discussion of perspectives has been addressing the nature of the
> creation in relationship to itself. Seeing and understanding these
> perspectives shows us that the things in the world, the buildings, objects,
> and people, are both one and many. From the higher perspective, we realize
> that it is all one creation. >From the lower perspective, we see that the
> creation has many distinct objects within it.
>
> Considering both of these perspectives, we see that the creation is all
> one, but it is not all the same. This single, universal one is not made up
> of the objects within it, but rather, the objects within it are made out of
> the one. A pie that is cut into pieces is not made out of its pieces. The
> pieces are made out of the pie.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/36d51095/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed May  7 00:32:33 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:32:33 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son
In-Reply-To: <8CA7DE630CAABD8-AF4-E1C@WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <01df01c8b003$c07ae890$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Yes, Cornie and Jessica, Hanoch speaks truth, as do you.  We know that if we
seek HaShem will all our hearts, He will be found by us.it is definitely
hard to put away thoughts and ideas that we have grown up with.some very
precious.that flood us with feelings we just cannot describe.may we use the
light of Torah to discern truth and may we have the courage to keep what
stands the test and to dispel anything that is amiss.and the beautiful thing
is that we have one another to talk to in "these last days," and to
encourage us when times get tough!

 

So glad you found us, Cornie and Jessica.and glad you are sticking with us,
Hanoch.and as for Ross, well, he is definitely a one of a kind and a true
"keeper!"  Love you all!  May we come to a place of shalom in Hashem.

 

Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:15 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

 

Hey Cornie & Jessica,

          First of all, we ALL have to hang in there, we haven't had a
'family reunion' for almost 3,000 years.  And yes, there WILL be bumps on
the way - that's for sure.  But if we surrender ourselves to HaShem and HIS
will, and pursue the truth, based on that, we'll be okay.  But it's to
HaShem that we need to turn to for guidance, not a doctrine or belief that
we've held, simply because, well, that's what we 'feel' like at that given
moment.  

         And in terms of Ross being a 'Torah Saint,' well, frankly - that's
not a title I had considered for him, yet.  I was still thinking along the
terms, Minister, or even better - 'Rabbi/Minister' - which will further
confuse everyone!  

        Take care everyone.....
                                         Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Tue, 6 May 2008 7:00 pm
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

Bless you Cornie,

Hang on in there - the truth is indeed freedom. Freedom to return to our
Father Creator and to His Torah of Life.

Shalom,

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:19 PM

Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Prodigal Son

 

Ross I have been very much of the same opinion that you have in this story
of the prodigal son in the past. At present it is very painful for me to
grasp, or recapture where I may have thrown out the baby with the dirty
bathwater. But my desire deep down is for nothing but the truth. And I guess
I am not quite persuaded that you are not justifying too much of the New
Testament. It just simply goes against the grain for me. But if it did not
really make sense to a point, to me too, I would not be painstakingly
reading so much in this dialogue. As my time is so limited. So if you are
really a true Torah Saint, just keep it up. You must surely have met with a
lot of opposition in your life.

Cornie

RNDAVAR at aol.com wrote: 

Some time back I wrote this article.  Some of you have seen it.  In many
ways it captures what I believe to be the true meaning of one of Yeshua's
parables.

 

http://rootsoffaith.org/Prodigal_Son.htm

 

Ross K. Nichols 
www.RootsofFaith.org <http://www.rootsoffaith.org/> 






  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.






  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  





  _____  



 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1415 - Release Date: 05/05/2008
6:01 AM
  

  _____  


_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
  _____  


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/2c8baf1b/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed May  7 04:05:57 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:05:57 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a Hebraic
	Perspective
Message-ID: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Hanoch,
                         just walked in and was confronted by the sad 
news regarding Naftali Ben Gila. To have the lives of 8 young yeshiva 
students snuffed out was outrageous enough, but to hear this sudden 
deterioration in his condition is very disturbing.
                         These young boys where the future rabbis of the 
Shomron (settlements). So these murderous Palestinian thugs made a very 
strong statement against the Holy One of Yisrael. Of course they would 
never do this to the political leaders of the secular government because 
these traitors are their allies in the dismantling of the settlements.
                         This callous murdering of the future spiritual 
leaders of Yisrael is a cold calculated statement by the enemy that 
there is no future not only for the settlers but for the entire Jewish 
nation. The Holy One , blessed be He has other ideas.
                         I am sending this musical link for Psalm 13  
sung in Hebrew for you to download and listen. The power of this prayer 
is in Hebrew. For those who cannot understand Hebrew , please still 
listen to the words as you meditate.
                        Please Hanoch keep us informed of Naftali's 
progress.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem
JOE.

http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm&PHPSESSID=973d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707 



From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net  Wed May  7 04:34:25 2008
From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 02:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <752902.79484.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Dear Joe:

Welcome to our little group. Thanks for this post which was most interesting to me.

Kind regards,

Helen


----- Original Message ----
From: JOE INDOMENICO <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2008 8:01:41 PM
Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]

Shalom to all,
                    I am new to this dialogue group.Well not that new. I 
have been reading your posts for the past week.My apologies for not 
posting earlier. However due to the overwhelming number of emails, I was 
procrastinating on whether to post or not.Please understand that I am an 
architect who runs his own practice on the sunny Gold Coast of 
Queensland, Australia. My concern was whether I had the stamina to keep 
up with y,all. However the question that Ross proposed was the honey 
that attracted the bee.
                  Ross , in keeping with the rabbinic tradition answers 
a question with a question. Well done Ross.I have a few insights that I 
would like to propose regarding " the Lamb of G-d who takes away the 
sins of the world "

                  Before we look at the chag of Pesach. I would like to 
draw your attention to the autumn festivals, in particular to Sukkot 
and"Shemini Atzeret".Now the rabbis teach that not only is Shemini 
Atzeret the conclusion or the goal of Sukkot ie: the rejoicing of 
Simchat Torah, but it is the conclusion of what started in the month of 
Ellul. The month of Ellul , or the 30 days leading up to Rosh Hashana is 
a time of teshuva( repentance). Then on Rosh Hashana when the shofarim 
are blown there are 10 days to prepare for Yom Kippur( atonement). The 
names are now inscribed inscribed in the book of life.This now leads to 
the chag of Sukkot. So in summary , the rabbis teach that the purpose of 
the rejoicing of Simchat Torah ( likened to a wedding feast where the 
bridegroom-Torah marries the bride- Yisrael) is because there has been 
repentance and atonement. No repentance,no atonement, no atonement no 
rejoicing.

                Similarly , the rabbis teach the there is an Atzeret 
for Pesach. The purpose of Pesach or the conclusion is Shavuot- the 
birth of a nation, the giving of the Holy Torah, the marriage of HaShem 
who comes with his Ketubah ( marriage contract) and Yisrael who said " I 
do ".
                So Pesach is not complete without Shavuot. Xtianity has 
butchered the whole theme of this chag as it has done with all other 
aspects of the TRUE faith delivered to the patriarchs and Am Yisrael. So 
the purpose of Yeshua's  Pesach mission is fulfilled at Shavuot ( 
Pentecost) when the Ruach Ha Kodesh( divine inspiration) put the spirit 
of Torah on their hearts.Xtianity has mixed up Pesach with Yom Kippur. 
They claim that the OT was about judgment while the NT is about 
grace.Again the distortion and stretching continues to make their 
doctrines seem to fit. HaShem brought Yisrael out of Mitzrayim( Egypt) 
during Pesach - mercy  so that they receive the Torah. By the way if 
they missed the mark (sin) there was atonement via repentance during Yom 
Kippur- now that sounds like grace to me.
                I would finally like to add that I read somewhere ( I 
cannot remember the source- but I will look for it ) that Yochannan the 
immerser actually said " Behold the WORD of G-d who takes away the sins 
of the world" The Hebrew for word is " milah" mem, yud, lammed, heh.The 
Hebrew word for lamb is"taleh" tet, lammed, heh. Now the translators I 
believe interpolated their view into this verse. Maybe the mem and the 
tet looked similar to them, or the word "milah" conjured up the thought 
of Brit Milah or circumcision . I do not know?
                Please excuse the long post and please excuse me if I am 
not as active as I would like to be . When I have the time I will join 
in. Keep up the search for the truth in all your endeavours.A special 
hello to Jessica in Adelaide who is a special friend of mine.She put me 
onto this dialogue group.This group is a hidden treasure of HaShem

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
JOE.
        



-----Inline Message Follows-----

Clyde and all,

I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that deals with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.  I would ask a couple of questions that need to be answered. This note will be part one as I want us to try and stay on topic better.  We tend to comment on the notes of others until one can barely associate the current content of a note with the original thought.

1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).  There is no doubt that this idea is present in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.  The question is...what exactly does this mean?  I think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people have made a leap in their thinking.

Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.  My personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb was killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter herbs.

So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between the death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua would in some way become associated with the firstborn son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?  Just a thought.

Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in general, but that can wait for another post properly labeled.  So again, if I have not been clear - What does the Passover lamb have to do with forgiveness of sins?  I am having trouble finding a connection.  Anyone know of something that I am missing?

Comments???

Shalom, Ross


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
Clyde and all,

I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this list is one that deals with the atonement brought about through the death of Yeshua.  I would ask a couple of questions that need to be answered. This note will be part one as I want us to try and stay on topic better.  We tend to comment on the notes of others until one can barely associate the current content of a note with the original thought.

1. You mention in your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death was prefigured in the death of the passover lamb).  There is no doubt that this idea is present in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.  The question is...what exactly does this mean?  I think that largely due to the words attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism waters - "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people have made a leap in their thinking.

Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the time of Pesach.  My personal view is that he does in fact die on the day that the lamb was killed. The point that most people miss is that the Passover lamb's death was not associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter with atonement or "taking away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was associated with a festival that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son. It was roasted over fire and eaten with bitter herbs.

So where do we find an association in the Christian writings between the death of Yeshua and the redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow one might come away thinking that this death of Yeshua would in some way become associated with the firstborn son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?  Just a thought.

Another point is on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in general, but that can wait for another post properly labeled.  So again, if I have not been clear - What does the Passover lamb have to do with forgiveness of sins?  I am having trouble finding a connection.  Anyone know of something that I am missing?

Comments???

Shalom, Ross


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/9acebae6/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 05:17:22 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:47:22 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out this great 1 minute movie: Israel: Then and
	Now
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS68CC5B7B602B1319E0F57BAD10@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU125-DS68CC5B7B602B1319E0F57BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2B53C286EA414D9C9AFF9751ACABB4A0@JessicaPC>

Thank you Pat it is a great reminder of all that the Jews have accomplished and had to contend with along the way. The saddest thing of course is that they are still not free to live in peace in their own Land. May He come quickly and restore all things.
Shalom
Jessica




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:46 PM
Subject: [Dialogue] Check out this great 1 minute movie: Israel: Then and Now


> 
> 
> Aish.com's New short Movie: Israel: Then and Now 
> http://www.aish.com/movies/60Years.asp
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/021be87b/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 05:26:32 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:56:32 +0930
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <C534374BF694409680CBF999F9284FB9@JessicaPC>

Blessings Betty/Elisheva, we are in complete agreement, particularly in respect to the passage of your post that I have highlighted below. 
You are so right about not having all the answers - it applies to ALL of us Betty not just you, and I feel sure none of us would dare pretend that we do have all the answers. However, seeking His Face, seeking after the truth is a blessing in itself. HaShem will provide the answers - in His Own Good Time.
Shalom
Jessica


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Betty Givin 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:21 PM
  Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


  Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I found it "buried" amidst over a hundred others.  I think that you pose an excellent question.not sure I have the answer.perhaps the actions of the people will have an influence as they did before.  

   

  According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways..so perhaps it will happen again?  Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not necessary.I don't have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the answers. 

   

  These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the "ideal" will of HaShem?  And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and they would be His people. 

   

  But what did  they do instead?  The text continues in a chilling account.they did abominable things, including burning their sons and daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it come into His Heart!  This language in very strong!  

   

  This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well.something that is abhorrent to HaShem.  Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE OTHER!  There is no mediator between G-d and man!  This is in Torah, and I just don't see how we can get around it.  It is repeated over and over in Isaiah 43, 44, 45.  As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot agree that his blood paid for my sins.I am responsible for my own sins, as I believe we all are.  G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my Redeemer.

   

  As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that "they will not hurt of destroy on my Holy Mountain."

   

  I really don't want to step on anybody's toes or worse, anybody's heart, but I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be the truth of Torah.  And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do love and care for all of you.

   

  Shalom and Blessings,

   

  Betty/Elisheva


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

   

  Hi Betty and All,

   

  What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.

   

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

   

  Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah" in the Jewish tradition.

   

  No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.

   

  This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do today.

   

  Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength!

   

  Betty/Elisheva

   

   


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
  Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

   

  CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

  What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

  Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.

  Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

  Rick






  On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:


  Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem.


     


    However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the translations.


     


    In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?  When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin?


     


    And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us.


     


    Take care


     


    CB     

     



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/0ec4d9ba/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 05:30:01 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:00:01 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
References: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com><001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>
	<BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5589334541B94D5481BD5EA0508E36D5@JessicaPC>

I can't see it either Pat - it just doesn't fit.
Jessica
(see highlight below)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Pat Robbins 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

  Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

  Thank you so much, Patty,

  Pat  (what's up with all these Patricia's on this list????)

     


  From: Patty 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:55 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Shalom,

   

  I don't think redemption comes through either the blood of Jesus OR his death, but rather by what he taught. When he was asked what must be done to inherit eternal life, his answer was, "What does it say in the Torah? DO THIS and you will live". 

   

  Blessings,

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:08 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

   

  Shalom to all 

   

  Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I know the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would only ask you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you know what to do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of the Passover in Egypt that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with (2),  the Lamb that takes away to the sin of the world. Although the two points have relevance I think they are not the same thing. That is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb that takes away the sin are related, but I think each is a phase in a two-phase process. That is the Passover as the first phase is absolutely necessary, before the second phase can begin. 

   

  Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the death angel to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The similarity I think in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God to pass-over death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin upon himself and nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn away death through sin. But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin, does not take sin away, and this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here when he states if Yeshua did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the pass-over of death is accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death through sin upon himself, that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words if Yeshua was not raised from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if he was raised from the dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his life, meaning his resurrected life.

   

  This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when Yeshua took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his pass-over of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse was taken away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are saved by the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by the resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on the role of the messiah when he stated the role of the messiah is helper. And I think this is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and savior, and the messiah is a helper in the process of God redeeming the world through the messiah. Through the messiah God is taking away the sin of the world.

  But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15, and a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man brought sin into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that God would use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again, and this time get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua as the son of Adam, had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have been offered any more than Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage that Adam did not before he sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin caused in all of its horrible consequences. 

   

  Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in the tree of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam got it wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right one step at a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just, that is righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made righteous. And how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our inner parts and in our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of God within is what takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made Just, i.e. righteous that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of God, and Yeshua is the helper in the process. 

   

  Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as a helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing Yeshua did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will think of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that will tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away the sin of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where the Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the Spirit of the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize the Torah that is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and good. 

   

  And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit of the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more exceedingly glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the Spirit of the living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character and holiness the more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua walked in the holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same holiness. And in the process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way the Lamb as the helper in God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the sin of the world?  

   

  Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you input.

   

  CB 






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/4c178141/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 06:06:33 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:36:33 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Reflections on Israel's Independence Day
Message-ID: <AD8EF6F31BDE433D89C1C0EC9D3B3169@JessicaPC>

Shalom Everyone,
This article is from a political figure in Israel, but I think he has some very relevant things to say about the redemption. I have highlighted a couple of paragraphs that I feel are thought provoking as we come closer to the redemption.
Jessica

"For 2000 years Jews would have gladly exchanged the horrors of exile for the current State of Israel. They would have given anything for a Jewish government headed by Olmert and for a Jewish army - despite the Expulsion. After the Holocaust, how can anyone deny the tremendous gift that we have received from the Creator - the gift of the State of Israel?"

There is certainly much truth to this claim, voiced primarily by the "state supremacy" side of Religious Zionism. On the surface, it is a decisive assertion, portraying those who disagree as ungrateful apostates. 
There is something demagogic, though, in this claim. Reality is measured not only by position on the time line, but also by direction. A baby's first hesitant steps are generally greeted with delight - but not if he is heading toward an abyss.

The inability of Religious Zionism to fight for its most valued principles does not necessarily prove singular love for the state; it shows sectarianism and the loss of its feeling of legitimacy in Israeli society. Is a prayer for Olmert the same as a prayer for the welfare of the state or the opposite? Does refusal to obey orders to destroy Jewish settlements destroy the army and the state or does it save them and delineate the borders beyond which the government cannot legitimately act?

Experience from the Expulsion and its aftermath shows that the state-supremacist arguments against all conscientious objection deprived the state of the vital checks and balances that the faith-based public should have given it. The claim that the state is a holy tool - no matter what - leads to the extreme notion that the regime is also holy. A holy regime, of course, cannot - by definition - issue an illegal order.

When the state began to strip itself of its basic Jewish values, when, during the Expulsion period, it sank into nihilism on the one hand and fascism on the other (the state is above all else, refusal to obey a criminal order is more dangerous than carrying it out, the will of the majority is insignificant, etc.), it was time for Religious Zionism to step forward. The struggle against the Expulsion was not for Gush Katif alone. It was a struggle over the moral foundation of the State of Israel. It was a struggle to allow the IDF to fight its true enemies. And believe it or not - it was a struggle for democracy. 

The state-supremacy theories that led to our defeat in the struggle for Gush Katif paved the way for the unraveling of the state. These theories directly led to the IDF's defeat one year later in Lebanon. The defeat in Gush Katif led to the widespread despondency that we are now experiencing. The public has tasted Israeli "democracy" and understands that it has no real control over its fate. The public feels that the state is imploding and is helpless to stop it from happening. The faith-based public that was at the forefront of the struggle against this process - and ran away from the confrontation - bears major responsibility for today's sorry situation.

Is the State of Israel really the forerunner of our redemption? I believe that it is. The dramatic historical events of the last sixty years cannot be ignored or dismissed. To do so would be to defy logic and to stifle the firm belief in redemption planted in our hearts. But on the other hand we must understand that what we are experiencing is the path to redemption - not the redemption, itself. 

This can be compared to a prisoner who discovers a secret tunnel leading outside the prison walls. As soon as he enters the tunnel, he is at the beginning of the path leading to redemption. The prison guards cannot beat him and he is now responsible for himself and his fate. Not only that, but the farther that he proceeds through the tunnel, the more he distances himself from his previous state and nears freedom. But suddenly he discovers that the exit from the tunnel is sealed off and that its ceiling is about to collapse. Is the tunnel still the path to his redemption? Only if he manages to overcome the obstacles and exit the tunnel. 

We need the maturity to understand that overcoming our present obstacles depends on us. We can no longer stand at the blocked exit from the tunnel and cry, as we did at Gush Katif. We must take responsibility and open the exit of the tunnel for the entire nation. Exaggerated celebrations and flag waving at the blocked exit point to a lack of connection to reality - not to extreme faith.

I will say the Hallel prayer on Independence Day. But I will do it quietly. Maybe I will even wave a flag - a small one. True, they defiled the flag at Gush Katif - but we will purify it.

We must tirelessly progress toward the steering wheel of our floundering national ship. We are not guests on board. It is our ship and we cannot abandon it. We may not know exactly how to get to shore, but we will know as we get closer, with G-d's help.

Wishing you a happy Independence Day - as happy as possible.

Moshe Feiglin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/eb03ab8a/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 06:18:11 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 20:48:11 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] A funny sense of humour
Message-ID: <D28618619782416C98AC58B0E7845B73@JessicaPC>

Hi Everyone,
I thought you might like a little lighthearted distraction tonight.
Shalom,
Jessica

An elderly man in Miami calls his son in New York and says, "I hate to ruin your day, but I have to tell you that your mother and I are divorcing. Forty-five years of misery is enough."

"Pop, what are you talking about?" the son screams.

"We can't stand the sight of each other any longer," the old man says.
"We're sick of each other, and I'm sick of talking about this, so you call
your sister in Chicago and tell her," and he hangs up.

Frantic, the son calls his sister, who explodes on the phone, "Like heck
they're getting divorced," she shouts."I'll take care of this." 
She calls her father immediately and screams at the old man, "You are NOT getting divorced! Don't do a single thing until I get there. I'm calling my 
brother back, and we'll both be there tomorrow.  Until then, don't do a thing, DO YOU HEAR ME?" and hangs up.

The old man hangs up his phone and turns to his wife. 

"Okay," he says, "they're coming for Passover and paying their own airfares. Now, we have to think up something for Rosh Hashana"
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/25fcb74b/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Wed May  7 07:41:38 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 08:41:38 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] From the Lekarev Report for today
Message-ID: <cce.2d6cb2ae.3552fd82@aol.com>

        Shalom

Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and they that return of  her with 
righteousness.

Isaiah  1:27
Remembering the Fallen  

At  precisely 11 am this morning, sirens wailed throughout the nation of  
Israel as the country paused for two minutes of silence to remember  the 22,437 
IDF soldiers who  have perished in defense of the Jewish state.

Immediately  afterward, the state ceremony at Mt Herzl Military Cemetery in  
Jerusalem commenced with Israeli president, Shimon Peres, and Prime  Minister 
Ehud Olmert presiding.  Simultaneously, additional  ceremonies were held 
throughout Israel and the 23 other military  cemeteries as bereaved families and 
friends gathered to remember the  ultimate sacrifice made by those who proudly 
wore the IDF  uniform.

During the two minute sirens, traffic came to a dead  stop throughout the 
country as people stood by their cars in  silent attention, paying their respects 
to the soldiers, as in this  scene in Tel Aviv.

Prime Minister Olmert addressed the crowd  gathered at Mt. Herzl, saying that 
the nation owes a great debt to  the valiant young soldiers who have fallen 
in the line of  duty.
The prime  minister also spoke of the significance of the tradition: "On this 
 unique day all barriers collapse. The sense of unity and  togetherness is 
more powerful than at any other event. Remembrance  Day for Israel's fallen is a 
disheartening day, but it is untainted  with disagreement.  
"There are none  in Israel who do not know the price of war, none who will 
not be  paying respects to a family member or friend or colleague. We owe a  
debt of honor to those who have fallen," said Olmert. 
"The  nation's honor and gratitude for the valor and sacrifices your loved  
one's made to defend the people and the country is without limit.  Our 
existence as a nation and the security of Israeli citizens  depends on our ability to 
defend ourselves, to fight for our just  positions and vital interests and 
strike back against those who  attack us."  




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/dd2d48fe/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Wed May  7 08:19:36 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:19:36 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <be9.310c4aab.35530668@aol.com>

 
GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.   You've said so much in just a 
couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what 
Yeshua taught.   He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that 
to inherit  eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!    MARVELOUS!!!!!!
 
Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention  that I, personally, really 
can't see him instituting the drink my  blood and eat my body thing.  That 
strikes me as being so  completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from 
"Cahna-Bal,"  which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of  
Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to  their 
despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28,  "They 
joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the  dead."   I just 
can't see Yeshua coming anywhere  near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the 
antithesis of  Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him 
doing  it.
 
Thank you so much, Patty,
 
Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of  
Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something  that has 
paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut  it out of the 
text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and  Writings, I 
think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not  in the Torah 
it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the  idea of 
Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in  Egypt. I 
have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must  be 
disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and  putting 
the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua  that he 
did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to  everlasting 
life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original  Pass-over.  The 
original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the  curse of death through 
sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very  purpose I think.
 
But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way  
there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God  
written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that  accomplished?  
2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of  stone, but on 
the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into  eternal life, keep 
the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two  cents.
 
CB 




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/0068b4b5/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 08:37:24 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:37:24 -0400
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com>
	<012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <01ae01c8b047$818ce400$84a6ac00$@com>

Shalom Betty and thank you for responding to this most difficult issue. I am
still studying this and am currently of the thought that this is something
that YHWH ALLOWED, rather than something He wanted. Just like how Israel
wanted a King. So they got a king and all the troubles that go with it, like
war. One way I try to look at it on a personal level - if I don't sin, I
don't need to sacrifice!!

 

Love, 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:52 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I
found it "buried" amidst over a hundred others.  I think that you pose an
excellent question.not sure I have the answer.perhaps the actions of the
people will have an influence as they did before.  

 

According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the
people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways..so perhaps it will happen
again?  Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice
to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not
necessary.I don't have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the
answers. 

 

These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the "ideal" will
of HaShem?  And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He
did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought
them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or
sacrifices.instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and
they would be His people. 

 

But what did  they do instead?  The text continues in a chilling
account.they did abominable things, including burning their sons and
daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it
come into His Heart!  This language in very strong!  

 

This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well.something that is
abhorrent to HaShem.  Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE OTHER!
There is no mediator between G-d and man!  This is in Torah, and I just
don't see how we can get around it.  It is repeated over and over in Isaiah
43, 44, 45.  As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his
teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot
agree that his blood paid for my sins.I am responsible for my own sins, as I
believe we all are.  G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my
Redeemer.

 

As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that "they will not hurt
of destroy on my Holy Mountain."

 

I really don't want to step on anybody's toes or worse, anybody's heart, but
I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be
the truth of Torah.  And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do
love and care for all of you.

 

Shalom and Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Hi Betty and All,

 

What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the
sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition.

 

No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d.

 

This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today.

 

Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote:


Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua,
and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem.


 


However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations.


 


In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin?


 


And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach
that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer
require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just
show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On
the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that
atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard
questions are set before us.


 


Take care


 


CB     

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/be37d058/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 08:41:48 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:41:48 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
References: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>	<001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>
	<BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <01b901c8b048$20c2f280$6248d780$@com>

Hi Pat,

 

I agree with you on the "drink my blood" thing. This was an abominable
practice, and I don't think Yeshua would ever say such a thing - even in
allegory. I have read that this may have been a Mithraic hymn that crept
into the text that was used in support of the Eucharistic idea.

 

As to the Patricias on the list? Chicks rule - Pattys in particular. (ha,
ha)

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:57 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a
couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is
what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught
them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

 

Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really
can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That
strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from
"Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of
Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their
despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They
joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I
just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such
barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just
can't see him doing it.

 

Thank you so much, Patty,

 

Pat  (what's up with all these Patricia's on this list????)

 

   

 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:55 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom,

 

I don't think redemption comes through either the blood of Jesus OR his
death, but rather by what he taught. When he was asked what must be done to
inherit eternal life, his answer was, "What does it say in the Torah? DO
THIS and you will live". 

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:08 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Shalom to all 

 

Very good comments from all of you, but I would like to stay on point and
explain what the comments and questions from Ross opened up for me. Now, I
know the things I'm about to write will not find agreement by all. I would
only ask you hold to what you find as truth, and what you do not, well, you
know what to do with that. (1), Ross placed a distinction of the Passover in
Egypt that prefigured the Passover of Yehsua, with (2),  the Lamb that takes
away to the sin of the world. Although the two points have relevance I think
they are not the same thing. That is both points, the Passover, and the Lamb
that takes away the sin are related, but I think each is a phase in a
two-phase process. That is the Passover as the first phase is absolutely
necessary, before the second phase can begin. 

 

Let me see if I can make this plain. The Passover of Yeshua was not a burnt
sin offering, not an atonement for sin, any more than the Passover of the
first-born in Egypt. In Egypt the blood on the door-post caused the death
angel to pass over the first-born of the children of Israel. The similarity
I think in the Pass-over of Yehsua was his shed blood was used of God to
pass-over death through sin. By taking the curse of death through sin upon
himself and nailing it to the cross - the first phase is to turn away death
through sin. But to turn away or hold at bay death though sin, does not take
sin away, and this leads to the second phase. Paul is helpful here when he
states if Yeshua did not rise we are still in our sins.  While the pass-over
of death is accomplished by Yeshua in taking the curse of death through sin
upon himself, that does nothing to take away the sin. In other words if
Yeshua was not raised from the dead by God, we are still in our sins. But if
he was raised from the dead by God, then Paul states, we are saved by his
life, meaning his resurrected life.

 

This I think leads us to the second phase -  Behold the Lamb of God that
takes away the sin of the world. Since the pass-over of death began when
Yeshua took the curse of death through sin upon himself on the cross, his
pass-over of death was only the first phase to lead to the second. The curse
was taken away but the sin of mankind remains. Then as Paul stated - we are
saved by the resurrected life of Yeshua, then how is the sin taken away by
the resurrected life of Yehsua? Now, James Tabor I think put his finger on
the role of the messiah when he stated the role of the messiah is helper.
And I think this is precisely correct. God is the redeemer and savior, and
the messiah is a helper in the process of God redeeming the world through
the messiah. Through the messiah God is taking away the sin of the world.

But how does the messiah help in the process of God redeeming the world? I
think we must go back to the beginning of the seed of the woman in Ge 3:15,
and a son of Adam because Adam brought sin into the world. If one man
brought sin into the world, and death through sin, it makes good sense that
God would use a son of Adam to run the program given to Adam through again,
and this time get it right. Now to be fair, and God is always fair, Yehsua
as the son of Adam, had to be human as Adam was human. He could not have
been offered any more than Adam was offered. But Yeshua had one advantage
that Adam did not before he sinned. Yeshua was able to observe what sin
caused in all of its horrible consequences. 

 

Adam had accesses to the power and all else of the Spirit of God in the tree
of life, and as it was said, Yeshua was filled with the Spirit of God
without measure. Therefore by Yeshua getting it right where the first Adam
got it wrong, he as the helper of God,  and lives to help us get it right
one step at a time. That  is through Yeshua God is about making us just,
that is righteous. This would mean sin can only be taken away by being made
righteous. And how is that accomplished? By God witting his Torah in our
inner parts and in our heart, meaning internalizing the holy commandments of
God within is what takes away sin. In other words, it is only in being made
Just, i.e. righteous that sin is taken away. It is a two-step process of
God, and Yeshua is the helper in the process. 

 

Yes Yeshua in a sense can be spoken of as a savior, but only in so much as a
helper, since only God can save.  In the ultimate sense every thing Yeshua
did or said takes us back to the only true God. I think each of you will
think of a great many texts in the Torah as well as in the so-called NT that
will tie together even further this two-step program of God in taking away
the sin of the world. I think this points us back to Jeremiah 31:31-33 where
the Torah of God is written on the inner parts and upon the hearts, by the
Spirit of the living God. I think then sin is taken away as we internalize
the Torah that is holy, and the commandment that is holy, and just, and
good. 

 

And isn't this the lesson of 2 Cor 3. That which was written on tables of
stone, are being written on our inner parts and in our hearts by the Spirit
of the living God, and Yeshua is a helper in that process. Yes, the Ten
Commandments written on tables of stone were glorious, but how much more
exceedingly glorious are the Ten Commandments written on our hearts by the
Spirit of the living God. Isn't that what takes away our sin? In character
and holiness the more we become like Yeshua, the more we walk as Yeshua
walked in the holiness of God, the more our sin is replaced by that same
holiness. And in the process we are made just by God. And isn't that the way
the Lamb as the helper in God's redeeming plan is helping to take away the
sin of the world?  

 

Now, if I have made some sense of what Ross opened up in my own mind, can
any of you takes us farther with other texts, either in the so-called old
Testament or the so-called New Testament? Thanking you in advance for you
input.

 

CB 

 

  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/9c92a88f/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Wed May  7 08:51:01 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:51:01 +0000
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <01ae01c8b047$818ce400$84a6ac00$@com>
References: <06bb01c8aecd$1ea249a0$5be6dce0$@com><012801c8aff5$b014f170$643c66c9@bettygivin><01ae01c8b047$818ce400$84a6ac00$@com>
Message-ID: <82689031-1210168249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1224870004-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

This was the subject of my "Messiah, part 3 on Sunday shul". You may want to check this out if you have not done so.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:37:24 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Shalom Betty and thank you for responding to this most difficult issue. I am still studying this and am currently of the thought that this is something that YHWH ALLOWED, rather than something He wanted. Just like how Israel wanted a King. So they got a king and all the troubles that go with it, like war. One way I try to look at it on a personal level ? if I don?t sin, I don?t need to sacrifice!! 
? 
Love, 
? 
Patty 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:52 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I found it ?buried? amidst over a hundred others.? I think that you pose an excellent question?not sure I have the answer?perhaps the actions of the people will have an influence as they did before.? 
? 
According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways?.so perhaps it will happen again?? Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not necessary?I don?t have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the answers. 
? 
These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the ?ideal? will of HaShem?? And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices?instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and they would be His people. 
? 
But what did? they do instead?? The text continues in a chilling account?they did abominable things, including burning their sons and daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it come into His Heart!? This language in very strong!? 
? 
This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well?something that is abhorrent to HaShem.? Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE OTHER!? There is no mediator between G-d and man!? This is in Torah, and I just don?t see how we can get around it.? It is repeated over and over in Isaiah 43, 44, 45.? As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot agree that his blood paid for my sins?I am responsible for my own sins, as I believe we all are.? G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my Redeemer. 
? 
As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that ?they will not hurt of destroy on my Holy Mountain.? 
? 
I really don?t want to step on anybody?s toes or worse, anybody?s heart, but I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be the truth of Torah.? And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do love and care for all of you. 
? 
Shalom and Blessings, 
? 
Betty/Elisheva 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Hi Betty and All, 
? 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments. 
? 
Patty 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the road in the way of tough issues.? You make a good point here, Rick, regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah? in the Jewish tradition. 
? 
No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be offered.? The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be like the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d. 
? 
This is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do today? 
? 
Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts, souls, strength! 
? 
Betty/Elisheva 
? 
? 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"
 
 What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:
 
 Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert, proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be forgiven.
 
 Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?
 
 Rick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: 

 Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each answer the question of whether or not?God raised Yeshua from the dead? If God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each of you have discovered the same problem. 

 ? 

 However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I think?determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a second hindrance?for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace through the faith of Yeshua?had to emphasis his role over and over again, and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to fix the?translations. 

 ? 

 In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God. Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value, since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask, wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing? ?When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement for sin? 

 ? 

 And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the Tanach?that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin, how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some hard questions are set before us. 

 ? 

 Take care 

 ? 

 CB????? 
? _______________________________________________


From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 09:12:01 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:12:01 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Libations and The Eucharist
In-Reply-To: <01b901c8b048$20c2f280$6248d780$@com>
References: <c7a.32949e44.3551ce4f@aol.com>	<001b01c8afb3$1b192a60$514b7f20$@com>	<BLU125-DS30ADC14486E2949AAE039BAD10@phx.gbl>
	<01b901c8b048$20c2f280$6248d780$@com>
Message-ID: <01c901c8b04c$54d271a0$fe7754e0$@com>

Shalom All,


If anyone would like to delve further into the possible origins of this
practice, here is an interesting paper, Drinking blood at a kosher
Eucharist? The sound of scholarly silence.


   <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-94771784.html>
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-94771784.html

 

Note: I haven't finished reading it myself and don't necessarily agree to
everything the author says.

 

Happy Reading!!

 

Patty

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/550a15da/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Wed May  7 09:51:05 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:51:05 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] The Miracles of Hanit
References: <FF6F779042C546AC92B584A35B1B391E@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <00b701c8b051$c7796380$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

WOW JESSICA,  THIS STORY IS POWERFUL....now I know why HaShem allows "wars" to take place.   No more wars,,,,then "ALL" will know HIM!!!!   BARUCH HASHEM!!!!    LOY LEORAH
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:34 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] The Miracles of Hanit



  Shalom Everyone,
  You may already know this story, but it's worth repeating, especially today.
  Brachot v'Shalom,
  Jessica
  (from: Rav Lazer Brody)
  The Miracles of Hanit
  17 October, 2006. A young Israeli Naval sergeant boarded the northbound train in Tel Aviv. I was on my way to a present a lecture in the Haifa area and he was returning to his base in the Haifa port. He sat down across from me, looking at me intently while I was learning my Gemorra. I looked up at him, smiled, said "Shalom aleichem!" 

  He sighed deeply, as if relieved, and sheepishly asked, "Can I talk to you, Rav?" 

  "Of course," I answered, asking him how he knows that I'm a "rav". He said that he heard me eulogize one of his fallen friends during the recent war. The sailor had a relatively new beard, an almost new knitted kippa on his head, and the beautifully pure innocence in his eyes of a new Ba'al Tshuva. To make a long story short, he was a crewman on board the Israeli Navy ship Hanit (Hebrew for bayonet) when it was hit by a missile of shore in Beirut. 

  The sailor, who we'll call Moshe, began to relate the dozens of miracles that happened aboard the Hanit the night that it was hit. "It was Friday night. Usually, the crew would eat Friday night dinner in two shifts. But this time, since we were in a war zone, our three religious crewmen went to Lt. Col. A - the skipper - and begged that we all need Hashem's help. The first miracle is that the skipper agreed to leave only 4 sailors on the bridge, and allowed the whole entire crew to pray together; we piled into the chapel, and said a lengthy mincha and Kabbalat Shabbat. I was bored and wanted to eat quickly then catch a few hours sleep, because I had the midnight watch. But, I stayed with the rest of the crew. Then, all of us had a Shabbat meal together - 15 different sailors said Kiddush, each in the custom of his fathers; I'm talking about guys that aren't (weren't) even religious! The meal was drawn out - I had a headache and was dying to sleep. The religious guys started to say the grace after the meal, and BOOOFF! The missile hit, but on the opposite end of the craft. It should have sank the boat, but it hit a crane right above the chopper landing pad. What a miracle! If that's not enough, the helicopter-refueling tank - filled to the gills with chopper fuel - didn't explode despite the fact that the whole end of the boat was burned..."

  At least twenty other crewmen aboard the Hanit should have been killed, but they were saved by Shabbat dinner on the other end of the ship. The four on the bridge all lost their lives.

  Moshe had beads of sweat on his forehead; tears glistened in his eyes. "The newspapers don't write about the miracles that we all saw. I ran to my bunk on the deck right below the landing pad. It was charcoal; my metal bunk was completely melted down and all my possessions were ashes. If I hadn't been detained in the chapel and in the dining hall for Shabbat meal, I'd have been charcoal too. I haven't stopped thanking Hashem since - I've changed my life..."

  Moshe continued with more miracles, including the engine room burnt to a crisp but a pair of tefillin was found unscathed. If that's not enough, amidst the embers of destruction, the sailors found a Book of Psalms - also unscathed - opened to Psalm 124. Read Psalm 124 and your hair will stand up!

  The train was nearing my station, so I gave Moshe a blessing and a fatherly embrace, and we parted. The Hanit took a direct hit from a Hizbulla missile, but Moshe has turned the navy's setback into a victory.

  *******

  Every day, I meet more and more "Moshes". Unlike the misguided and corrupt Israeli leaders, the Israeli on the street - especially the soldiers and the reservists - are diamonds looking to be polished, and have started to ask the real questions in life. They're looking for emuna. Were it not for the wars here, they wouldn't have bothered. 

  The whole purpose of the wars is to bring us closer to Hashem. Once we get close to Hashem on our own initiative, Hashem won't have to send us wars anymore, amen. I'd much prefer dancing with Moshiach to eulogizing fallen comrades.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/ea0214d0/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Wed May  7 10:02:50 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:02:50 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 
Message-ID: <c75.2ad09e7a.35531e9a@aol.com>


Shalom to all:
 
I'm wondering what you dear folks might think of this appendix below? Does  
it make sense of how the Ten Commandments originally written on tables of 
stone,  are now being written on the fleshly tables of the heart by the Spirit of 
the  living God?  Is Paul picking up on Jer 31:31-33, and showing how by  the 
Spirit of the living God, the Ten Commandments are being  internalized? Did the 
children of Israel break God's commandments because  they had a stony heart, 
and that is why through the Holy Spirit they are now  being written on a 
fleshly heart?  What do you think, anyone have a  perspective on this?  Can we 
discuss the issue in a friendly manner? I  think we can.   
 
   
APPENDICS  2 

Understanding 2nd Cor  3   

To suggest that the majority of New  Testament scholars have misunderstood 
Paul?s teaching in 2nd Cor  chapter 3, might sound as an overstatement by some. 
But nevertheless how  2nd Cor 3, is interpreted will cast an anti-Torah bias 
upon the  apostle Paul, or show Paul a pro-Torah teacher in all respects. In 
our main  article we will take that it has been demonstrated that Paul taught 
Torah  obedience, and if he is consistent a correct interpretation of 2nd  Cor 
3, will not depart from the necessity of Torah obedience for all that call  
upon the name of Yahwah through the messiah Yeshua.   
Whatever problems Paul might be having with the churches in Corinth, he 
begins in 2nd Cor 3, by asking if the  churches in Corinth? Do we need commend 
ourselves, or need we as some others,  epistles of commendation to you, or 
epistles of commendation from you?  Paul?s apostolic authority is being  questioned 
as we read in 2nd Cor 11. Paul then reminds the  Corinthians, you are our 
epistle written in our hearts known and read by all.  Then Paul writes: 
??Forasmuch as  you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ 
ministered by us written  not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God: not 
on tables of stone, but in the fleshly tables of the  heart.? (2nd Cor 3:3)  
Now, it is here  where most New Testament scholars  we suggest miss the true 
interpretation  because the fail to turn to Jeremiah 31:31-33, and understand 
Paul was  describing that the churches in Corinth were experiencing the 
fulfillment of  what Yahweh foretold would one day come to pass. And what was 
Jeremiah inspired  of Yahwah to record? 
??Behold the days  come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant 
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the 
covenant I made with their fathers,  in the day that I took them by the hand to 
bring them out of the land of Egypt;  which my covenant they brake, although I was 
a husband unto them saith the LORD.  But this is the covenant that I will 
make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the LORD, I will write my 
Torah in their inward parts  and write it in their hearts, and will be their 
God, and they shall be my  people.? (Jer 31:31-33) 
Notice carefully the words set in bold, and compare the words set in bold  in 
2nd Cor 3:3. Is should be clear that Paul is drawing on Jer  31:31-33, and 
explaining that what was written on tables of stone was now being  written on 
the fleshly tables of the heart. And how did God propose to write his  Torah/Law 
on the fleshly tables of the heart? Paul says in 2nd Cor  3:3, by the Spirit 
of the living God. We might ask why doesn?t the majority of  New Testament 
scholars observe what Paul is stating as a direct fulfillment of  Jer 31:31-33? 
We will leave to each reader to answer that question, but if honestly  with 
the scriptures is foremost in our minds, the connection between Paul and  
Jeremiah ought to be obvious.  Paul  is not degrading the tables of stone, i.e. the 
Ten Commandments of God. Of  course not; rather he is showing how the Ten 
Commandments are being written on  the fleshly table of the heart.  It  is of 
great importance to state that the Ten Commandments were given for life  and not 
death. Death came by disobeying the commandments of God. Because they  brake 
my covenant as we read above, is why Yahwah says he will write his  Torah/Law 
in their hearts, by his Holy Spirit.   
Since it is the Ten Commandments written on the fleshly tables of the  heart 
by the Spirit of the living God, then perhaps it is the renewed covenant,  
rather than a new covenant. But what should be clear to all, is that Paul is in  
no way abolishing the Torah/Law of God, The next texts which has also been  
misinterpreted by the majority of scholars is v.6, which  reads: 
??Who also has  made us able ministers of the new/renewed covenant not of 
the letter, but of the  spirit: for the letter kills but the spirit gives  life? 
Since there is no  death in the Ten Commandments of God and only life, and 
death comes from  transgressing the commandments of God, then what in the letter 
of the Torah/Law  kills? Of course it is the curses brought about through 
sin, and sin brings  death, and all have sinned. And death is the curse as the 
result of disobedience  to what God commands. Transgression of the commandments 
of God brings death and  the letter of the Law as long as the curses remain 
there is no escape from death  that is eternal. However, the Spirit of the 
living God gives  life. 
But one must repent and receive the grace of God through the faith of the  
messiah Yeshua to have the curse removed. And how is the curse removed? Paul  
explains it when he states: 
?Blotting out the  handwriting of ordnances that were against us, which were 
contrary against us,  and took it out of the way nailing it to the cross.?  
(Col 2:14) 
We now come to the largest mistake of all, made by the majority of New  
Testament scholars  While it should  now be clear to all, that the tables of stone. 
The Ten Commandments of  2nd Cor 3:3, are written on the fleshly tables of 
the believer?s  heart. But then in 2nd Cor 3:7 -9 
Paul  states: 
??But if the  ministration of death written and engraved in stones was 
glorious, so that the  children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of 
Moses for the glory  of his countenance which glory was fading away. How shall 
not the ministration  of the spirit be rather glorious?  For if the 
ministration of condemnation is glorious much more does the  ministrations of 
righteousness exceed in glory.   
How are we to understand what Paul is saying in these texts, and it is  clear 
he is calling the Ten Commandments written and engraved on stone glorious,  
and at the same time calling these commandments the ministration of death. How  
can the Ten Commandments which are glorious be a ministration of death?  In 
2nd Cor 3:3, we observed  the commandments written on stones are written on the 
fleshly tables of the  heart by the Spirit of the living God. Therefore if 
the Ten Commandments are  written on the fleshly tables of the believer?s heart, 
then if they bring death  where does that leave the believer?  
How are we to explain this?  We suggest very carefully. The curse of the 
Torah/Law is when the  Torah/Law is broken. Therefore when the Torah/Law is 
broken, then we have the  wages of sin is death. This means without the curses for 
breaking the Torah  commandments, and in the Ten Commandments there are no 
curses, only instruction,  then only the curses of Duet 28 must be assumed as the 
background of Paul?s  discourse. The Ten Commandments can only be a 
ministration of death, if death is  the penalty for breaking the commandments.  
A Law has no force without a penalty for breaking the Law. A Law written  
that one must stop at a stop sign has no force unless there is a penalty if the  
stop sign is ran. The same principle operates in terms of the Ten Commandments 
 of God. The commandments instruct us how to worship God, and how to love our 
 fellow man. But they do not inform us of what happens if we break these  
commandments. It is the breaking of these commandments that bring on the  
ministration of death and condemnation. This then, is the penalty phase in the  
letter of the Torah/Law. 

.The Ministration Of  Death 

Paul is calling  the Ten Commandments written on stones a ministration of 
death and  condemnation.  And how does the holy  and righteous Ten Commandments 
of God condemn us? They condemn us when they are  broken, and all have broken 
the commandments of God. Paul states in Rom  7:9-10: 
?,,, For I was  alive without the Law, but when the commandments came sin 
revived and I died.  And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to 
be unto death.?   
How can the commandment that was ordained to life give us death  instead? 
??For sin, taking  occasion  by the commandment  deceived me and by it slew 
me. Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment is  holy, and just, and 
good. Was that then which good made death unto me ? God  forbid. But sin that it 
might appear sin working death in me by that which is  good; that sin by the 
commandment by become exceedingly sinful.? (Rom 7:11-13)   
It is here that  Paul most clearly explains how that which is written on 
tables of stone, i.e.  the Ten Commandments in 2nd Cor 3:7-9 is a ministration of 
death and  condemnation.  The very Ten  Commandments that were ordained to 
life bring condemnation. And they bring  condemnation not because they are not 
holy , just, and good, no, they bring  condemnation through sin, and all have 
sinned. And in Rom 6:23, the wages of sin is death. The wages or payoff from sin 
 is death. All mankind from Adam forward have earned death through sin.   
And remember in  Jer 31:31-33, Yahweh states that he will make a new/renewed 
covenant with the  house of Israel and the house of Judah, because the 
children of Israel broke his covenant. Now, back to 2nd Cor 3  which relates to Ex 34 
when Moses brought the new tablets down from Mount Sinai. Because of the 
golden calf incident, Moses was angered  and he threw down and broke the first 
tablets containing the Ten Commandments.  In Ex 32, while Moses was on the 
mountain the children of Israel made an idol of a calf and bowed down to worship it. 
  
The LORD had Moses hew out a second set  of tablets, bring them upon the 
Mount of Sinai, and the Lord wrote again the Ten  Commandments on the two Tablets 
of stone. When Moses came down the mountain his  skin glowed with the radiance 
from being in the presence of the LORD. Because it  sacred the children of 
Israel, Moses put a Vail over his face until the glory faded from  his skin. 
When Moses would return to the Mount in the presence of the LORD he  would remove 
the Vail. But when he came down from the mount to speak with the  children of 
Israel he would again put the Vail over his face. .   
In 2nd Cor 3:9-18, Paul is contrasting the glory of the LORD  on Moses face 
that over time faded away. However with the glory of the Ten  Commandments 
written in the inward parts and on the heart by the Spirit of the  living God, we 
go from glory to glory. The glory of the Ten Commandments written  on tables 
of stone which were glorious, are even more exceedingly glorious when  written 
on the heart by the Spirit of the living God.    



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/8f376ac3/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 10:40:19 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:40:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 
In-Reply-To: <c75.2ad09e7a.35531e9a@aol.com>
References: <c75.2ad09e7a.35531e9a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <01e601c8b058$af4e3d10$0deab730$@com>

Shalom!

 

I think that what is confusing in this appendix is that Paul?s ?fulfillment? of Jeremiah 31 appears to be different than Yeshua?s. In a nutshell, Paul appears to be saying that the Torah is ?nailed to the cross with Christ? and is now written on the ?fleshly tables of the heart?, which he also later calls ?grace?.  Yeshua shows a much clearer understanding of the Jeremiah prophecy. He says that not only are we to obey the commandments outwardly (by the letter), but also inwardly ? from the heart. For example, he says that not only is it wrong to commit adultery (outwardly), but now it is just as wrong to lust after another person?s spouse (inwardly, or from the heart). So you see how Yeshua really is setting the wheels of the Jeremiah Prophecy into motion. So you see, you can?t really have one without the other.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:03 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 

 

 

Shalom to all:

 

I'm wondering what you dear folks might think of this appendix below? Does it make sense of how the Ten Commandments originally written on tables of stone, are now being written on the fleshly tables of the heart by the Spirit of the living God?  Is Paul picking up on Jer 31:31-33, and showing how by the Spirit of the living God, the Ten Commandments are being internalized? Did the children of Israel break God's commandments because they had a stony heart, and that is why through the Holy Spirit they are now being written on a fleshly heart?  What do you think, anyone have a perspective on this?  Can we discuss the issue in a friendly manner? I think we can.   

 

  

APPENDICS 2

 

Understanding 2nd Cor 3  

 

            To suggest that the majority of New Testament scholars have misunderstood Paul?s teaching in 2nd Cor chapter 3, might sound as an overstatement by some. But nevertheless how 2nd Cor 3, is interpreted will cast an anti-Torah bias upon the apostle Paul, or show Paul a pro-Torah teacher in all respects. In our main article we will take that it has been demonstrated that Paul taught Torah obedience, and if he is consistent a correct interpretation of 2nd Cor 3, will not depart from the necessity of Torah obedience for all that call upon the name of Yahwah through the messiah Yeshua.  

            Whatever problems Paul might be having with the churches in Corinth, he begins in 2nd Cor 3, by asking if the churches in Corinth? Do we need commend ourselves, or need we as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or epistles of commendation from you?  Paul?s apostolic authority is being questioned as we read in 2nd Cor 11. Paul then reminds the Corinthians, you are our epistle written in our hearts known and read by all. Then Paul writes:

 

??Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God: not on tables of stone, but in the fleshly tables of the heart.? (2nd Cor 3:3) 

 

Now, it is here where most New Testament scholars  we suggest miss the true interpretation because the fail to turn to Jeremiah 31:31-33, and understand Paul was describing that the churches in Corinth were experiencing the fulfillment of what Yahweh foretold would one day come to pass. And what was Jeremiah inspired of Yahwah to record?

 

??Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them saith the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the LORD, I will write my Torah in their inward parts and write it in their hearts, and will be their God, and they shall be my people.? (Jer 31:31-33)

 

            Notice carefully the words set in bold, and compare the words set in bold in 2nd Cor 3:3. Is should be clear that Paul is drawing on Jer 31:31-33, and explaining that what was written on tables of stone was now being written on the fleshly tables of the heart. And how did God propose to write his Torah/Law on the fleshly tables of the heart? Paul says in 2nd Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God. We might ask why doesn?t the majority of New Testament scholars observe what Paul is stating as a direct fulfillment of Jer 31:31-33?

            We will leave to each reader to answer that question, but if honestly with the scriptures is foremost in our minds, the connection between Paul and Jeremiah ought to be obvious.  Paul is not degrading the tables of stone, i.e. the Ten Commandments of God. Of course not; rather he is showing how the Ten Commandments are being written on the fleshly table of the heart.  It is of great importance to state that the Ten Commandments were given for life and not death. Death came by disobeying the commandments of God. Because they brake my covenant as we read above, is why Yahwah says he will write his Torah/Law in their hearts, by his Holy Spirit. 

            Since it is the Ten Commandments written on the fleshly tables of the heart by the Spirit of the living God, then perhaps it is the renewed covenant, rather than a new covenant. But what should be clear to all, is that Paul is in no way abolishing the Torah/Law of God, The next texts which has also been misinterpreted by the majority of scholars is v.6, which reads:

 

??Who also has made us able ministers of the new/renewed covenant not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills but the spirit gives life?

 

Since there is no death in the Ten Commandments of God and only life, and death comes from transgressing the commandments of God, then what in the letter of the Torah/Law kills? Of course it is the curses brought about through sin, and sin brings death, and all have sinned. And death is the curse as the result of disobedience to what God commands. Transgression of the commandments of God brings death and the letter of the Law as long as the curses remain there is no escape from death that is eternal. However, the Spirit of the living God gives life.

            But one must repent and receive the grace of God through the faith of the messiah Yeshua to have the curse removed. And how is the curse removed? Paul explains it when he states:

 

?Blotting out the handwriting of ordnances that were against us, which were contrary against us, and took it out of the way nailing it to the cross.? (Col 2:14)

 

            We now come to the largest mistake of all, made by the majority of New Testament scholars  While it should now be clear to all, that the tables of stone. The Ten Commandments of 2nd Cor 3:3, are written on the fleshly tables of the believer?s heart. But then in 2nd Cor 3:7 -9

Paul states:

 

??But if the ministration of death written and engraved in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance which glory was fading away. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  For if the ministration of condemnation is glorious much more does the ministrations of righteousness exceed in glory. 

 

            How are we to understand what Paul is saying in these texts, and it is clear he is calling the Ten Commandments written and engraved on stone glorious, and at the same time calling these commandments the ministration of death. How can the Ten Commandments which are glorious be a ministration of death?  In 2nd Cor 3:3, we observed the commandments written on stones are written on the fleshly tables of the heart by the Spirit of the living God. Therefore if the Ten Commandments are written on the fleshly tables of the believer?s heart, then if they bring death where does that leave the believer? 

            How are we to explain this?  We suggest very carefully. The curse of the Torah/Law is when the Torah/Law is broken. Therefore when the Torah/Law is broken, then we have the wages of sin is death. This means without the curses for breaking the Torah commandments, and in the Ten Commandments there are no curses, only instruction, then only the curses of Duet 28 must be assumed as the background of Paul?s discourse. The Ten Commandments can only be a ministration of death, if death is the penalty for breaking the commandments. 

            A Law has no force without a penalty for breaking the Law. A Law written that one must stop at a stop sign has no force unless there is a penalty if the stop sign is ran. The same principle operates in terms of the Ten Commandments of God. The commandments instruct us how to worship God, and how to love our fellow man. But they do not inform us of what happens if we break these commandments. It is the breaking of these commandments that bring on the ministration of death and condemnation. This then, is the penalty phase in the letter of the Torah/Law.

 

.The Ministration Of Death

 

Paul is calling the Ten Commandments written on stones a ministration of death and condemnation.  And how does the holy and righteous Ten Commandments of God condemn us? They condemn us when they are broken, and all have broken the commandments of God. Paul states in Rom 7:9-10:

 

?,,, For I was alive without the Law, but when the commandments came sin revived and I died. And the commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.? 

 

            How can the commandment that was ordained to life give us death instead?

 

??For sin, taking occasion  by the commandment deceived me and by it slew me. Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy, and just, and good. Was that then which good made death unto me ? God forbid. But sin that it might appear sin working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment by become exceedingly sinful.? (Rom 7:11-13)  

 

It is here that Paul most clearly explains how that which is written on tables of stone, i.e. the Ten Commandments in 2nd Cor 3:7-9 is a ministration of death and condemnation.  The very Ten Commandments that were ordained to life bring condemnation. And they bring condemnation not because they are not holy , just, and good, no, they bring condemnation through sin, and all have sinned. And in Rom 6:23, the wages of sin is death. The wages or payoff from sin is death. All mankind from Adam forward have earned death through sin. 

And remember in Jer 31:31-33, Yahweh states that he will make a new/renewed covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, because the children of Israel broke his covenant. Now, back to 2nd Cor 3 which relates to Ex 34 when Moses brought the new tablets down from Mount Sinai. Because of the golden calf incident, Moses was angered and he threw down and broke the first tablets containing the Ten Commandments. In Ex 32, while Moses was on the mountain the children of Israel made an idol of a calf and bowed down to worship it. 

 The LORD had Moses hew out a second set of tablets, bring them upon the Mount of Sinai, and the Lord wrote again the Ten Commandments on the two Tablets of stone. When Moses came down the mountain his skin glowed with the radiance from being in the presence of the LORD. Because it sacred the children of Israel, Moses put a Vail over his face until the glory faded from his skin. When Moses would return to the Mount in the presence of the LORD he would remove the Vail. But when he came down from the mount to speak with the children of Israel he would again put the Vail over his face. . 

            In 2nd Cor 3:9-18, Paul is contrasting the glory of the LORD on Moses face that over time faded away. However with the glory of the Ten Commandments written in the inward parts and on the heart by the Spirit of the living God, we go from glory to glory. The glory of the Ten Commandments written on tables of stone which were glorious, are even more exceedingly glorious when written on the heart by the Spirit of the living God.    





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/90c1fa66/attachment.html 

From long777 at att.net  Wed May  7 12:28:40 2008
From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy Long)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 10:28:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Role of Messiah
Message-ID: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Betty,

You posted that "There is no mediator between G-d and man! " 
I would respectfully disagree on this point. Moshe was a mediator between HaShem and Israel as they were so fearful to hear Him speak they asked that Moshe receive and then give to them. This is the role of mediator is it not? Was the High Priest also in the role of a mediator? The people could not approach the Most Holy One themselves but had to have the HP do it for them. 
I see the role of mediator played in these examples. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have been wrong so many times in the past I have learned to take correction well. :)

Jeremy
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/cd83867a/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Wed May  7 12:30:45 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:30:45 EDT
Subject: Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart  
Message-ID: <cce.2d742292.35534145@aol.com>

 
Shalom! 
I  think that what is confusing in this appendix is that Paul?s ?fulfillment?
 of  Jeremiah 31 appears to be different than Yeshua?s. In a nutshell, Paul 
appears  to be saying that the Torah is ?nailed to the cross with Christ? and 
is now  written on the ?fleshly tables of the heart?, which he also later 
calls ?grace?.  Yeshua shows a much clearer understanding of the Jeremiah 
prophecy. He  says that not only are we to obey the commandments outwardly (by the 
letter),  but also inwardly ? from the heart. For example, he says that not 
only is it  wrong to commit adultery (outwardly), but now it is just as wrong to 
lust after  another person?s spouse (inwardly, or from the heart). So you see 
how Yeshua  really is setting the wheels of the Jeremiah Prophecy into motion. 
So you see,  you can?t really have one without the other. 
Blessings, 
Patty 
Hi  Patty, thank you for taking the time to comment  If I may and I will in 
all  cases address your comments in a friedly manner. These issues are complex  
and I appreciate any help in working through them. Let me see if I understand 
 what you are saying. Are you saying you think that Paul means by the Ten  
Commandments written on the fleshly tables of the heart,that is inwardly, that  
outwardly we need not keep them?  If I have minunderstood pleae correct me.  
If I haven't how would you explain when Paul writres: 
"...Owe  no one anything, ecept to love one another; for he who loves his 
neighbor has  fulfiulled the Torah. The commandments , You shall not commit 
adulktery. You  shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any 
other  commandmnent  are summed up in this sentance, You shall love your 
neighbor  as yourself. (Rom 13:8-9) 
It  seems to me that what Paul is saying is both inwardly and outwardly. I'm 
not  understanding where this would differ from what Yeshua stated in Matthew  
5. I think what might be throwing us off, is where Paul contrasts the  letter 
with the Spirit. Perhaps we should take a look at that.       



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/0d73930e/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Wed May  7 12:30:42 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:30:42 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 
Message-ID: <d11.2698488c.35534142@aol.com>

Patty, thank you for taking the time to comment. If I may in a friendly  
manner address you comments, each in order. First you state:. 
 
I  think that what is confusing in this appendix is that Paul?s ?fulfillment?
 of  Jeremiah 31 appears to be different than Yeshua?s. In a nutshell, Paul 
appears  to be saying that the Torah is ?nailed to the cross with Christ? and 
is now  written on the ?fleshly tables of the heart?,
 
Patty,  In over 150 times the term curse or cursed is always used in regard 
to breaking  the commandments of God. Therefore if it is the curse that is 
nailed to the  cross, it seems to me to relate to the curse or cursed in  over 150 
times  in the Hebrew Bible. Of course what you are saying does fit the 
orthodox  Christian view, but I think it is better to stay with the only Bible they 
had,  even if Pail used the Greek translation. And don't you think when Paul  
calls the Torah holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good, that would 
 rule out any thought he might have had of the Torah being nailed to the  
cross?  And as he stated elsewhere with his mind he serves the Torah of  God, it 
is unlikely that he would be thinking the Torah as the curse was nailed  to 
the cross? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just asking questions we all  
must deal with. 
 
Your  second point:
 
which  he also later calls ?grace?.  Yeshua shows a much clearer 
understanding of  the Jeremiah prophecy. He says that not only are we to obey the 
commandments  outwardly (by the letter), but also inwardly ? from the heart. 
 
Patty,  I do not understand how it is possible if one keeps the Commandmnets 
of God from  the heart, he would not be literally keeping them in his walk be 
fore God and  mankind. Please explain what you mean by letter, and if you mean 
Paul is saying  if you have the Ten Commandments written on the heart you can 
forget about  keeping them  in the flesh?  I don't know how I could keep the  
Ten Comandments in my heart, and commit idoltry, adultery, steal or murder. 
In  other words how can one keep the holy commansmnets of God inwardly and not 
do so  outwardly.    
 
 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c37b15cb/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:40:19 -0400
Size: 44142
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c37b15cb/attachment.mht 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 12:32:19 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:32:19 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <be9.310c4aab.35530668@aol.com>
References: <be9.310c4aab.35530668@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS77D76AE8C2F2E866F828EBAD10@phx.gbl>

Hi Clyde,

I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin.  Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah.  

Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices.  Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism.  However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant.   We see this referred to in Judges 8:33.  This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles.  Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder.  Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world.  Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse.  In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice.  There are many more such examples.

It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions.  I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us.  Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted.  The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions.  We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz.

I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood.  I just can't see it.  In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us.  He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do.  He's just not ambiguous.  If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail.  It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath.  He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.   So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements.  I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference.

And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal  of the curse of death.   Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place.  And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it."  But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...."  Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life:  "But if the wicked will turn  from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him:  in his righteousness that he has done he shall live."  Ezekiel 18:21-22

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully.  If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error.  

Love to all of you,

Pat





From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

Thank you so much, Patty,

Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over.  The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think.

But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished?  2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two cents.

CB 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/0143e841/attachment.html 

From rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 12:56:26 2008
From: rickgozhanskij at yahoo.com (Rick Gozhanskij)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 12:56:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Role of Messiah
In-Reply-To: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>

Jeremy,  When King David cried out to HaShem and we are told that he 
did that on numerous occasions,  David said that HaShem heard his cry.  
Was a mediator needed for David to commune with HaShem or maybe there 
is a difference between what is a Mediator and what David was doing?

Rick



On May 7, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Jeremy Long wrote:

> Betty,
> ?
> You posted that "There is no mediator between G-d and man!?"
> I would respectfully disagree on this point. Moshe was a mediator 
> between HaShem and Israel as they were?so fearful to hear Him speak 
> they asked that Moshe receive and then give to them. This is the role 
> of mediator is it not??Was the High Priest also in the role of a 
> mediator? The people could not approach the Most Holy One themselves 
> but had to have the HP do it for them.
> I see the role of mediator played in these examples. Please correct me 
> if I am wrong. I have been wrong so many times in the past I have 
> learned to take correction well. :)
> ?
> Jeremy_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: text/enriched
Size: 1959 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/de830438/attachment.bin 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 13:01:35 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:01:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 
In-Reply-To: <d11.2698488c.35534142@aol.com>
References: <d11.2698488c.35534142@aol.com>
Message-ID: <022001c8b06c$661ad450$32507cf0$@com>

Shalom,

 

In Matt. 23:23 we read, ?Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.?  So we see that the Scribes and Pharisees were outwardly following Torah, but in their hearts was all manner of evil. When Yeshua said, ?ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone? he meant, we should still tithe, abstain from unclean food, and observe all of the other mitzvoth, but we cannot overlook the inward observance - judgment, mercy, and faith.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:31 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Ten Commandments Written on the Heart 

 

Patty, thank you for taking the time to comment. If I may in a friendly manner address you comments, each in order. First you state:. 

 

I think that what is confusing in this appendix is that Paul?s ?fulfillment? of Jeremiah 31 appears to be different than Yeshua?s. In a nutshell, Paul appears to be saying that the Torah is ?nailed to the cross with Christ? and is now written on the ?fleshly tables of the heart?,

 

Patty, In over 150 times the term curse or cursed is always used in regard to breaking the commandments of God. Therefore if it is the curse that is nailed to the cross, it seems to me to relate to the curse or cursed in  over 150 times in the Hebrew Bible. Of course what you are saying does fit the orthodox Christian view, but I think it is better to stay with the only Bible they had, even if Pail used the Greek translation. And don't you think when Paul calls the Torah holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good, that would rule out any thought he might have had of the Torah being nailed to the cross?  And as he stated elsewhere with his mind he serves the Torah of God, it is unlikely that he would be thinking the Torah as the curse was nailed to the cross? I'm not trying to be confrontational, just asking questions we all must deal with. 

 

Your second point:

 

which he also later calls ?grace?.  Yeshua shows a much clearer understanding of the Jeremiah prophecy. He says that not only are we to obey the commandments outwardly (by the letter), but also inwardly ? from the heart. 

 

Patty, I do not understand how it is possible if one keeps the Commandmnets of God from the heart, he would not be literally keeping them in his walk be fore God and mankind. Please explain what you mean by letter, and if you mean Paul is saying if you have the Ten Commandments written on the heart you can forget about keeping them  in the flesh?  I don't know how I could keep the Ten Comandments in my heart, and commit idoltry, adultery, steal or murder. In other words how can one keep the holy commansmnets of God inwardly and not do so outwardly.    

 

 





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/41fd3504/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 13:04:05 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:04:05 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Role of Messiah
In-Reply-To: <889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <022b01c8b06c$c19bf840$44d3e8c0$@com>

Hi, I think that in some points throughout the history of Israel, the people
wanted a mediator, like when YHWH spoke to the Israelites and they were so
afraid that they ask Moses to be a mediator.

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:56 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Role of Messiah

 

Jeremy, When King David cried out to HaShem and we are told that he did that
on numerous occasions, David said that HaShem heard his cry. Was a mediator
needed for David to commune with HaShem or maybe there is a difference
between what is a Mediator and what David was doing?

Rick



On May 7, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Jeremy Long wrote:

Betty,


 


You posted that "There is no mediator between G-d and man! " 


I would respectfully disagree on this point. Moshe was a mediator between
HaShem and Israel as they were so fearful to hear Him speak they asked that
Moshe receive and then give to them. This is the role of mediator is it not?
Was the High Priest also in the role of a mediator? The people could not
approach the Most Holy One themselves but had to have the HP do it for them.


I see the role of mediator played in these examples. Please correct me if I
am wrong. I have been wrong so many times in the past I have learned to take
correction well. :)


 


Jeremy

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/f67ddbc3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 13:35:43 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:35:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A funny sense of humour
In-Reply-To: <D28618619782416C98AC58B0E7845B73@JessicaPC>
References: <D28618619782416C98AC58B0E7845B73@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS7647310E929AEE382BD1ABAD10@phx.gbl>

LOVED IT!  Thanks for the laugh, Jessica.


From: Jessica 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:18 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] A funny sense of humour


Hi Everyone,
I thought you might like a little lighthearted distraction tonight.
Shalom,
Jessica

An elderly man in Miami calls his son in New York and says, "I hate to ruin your day, but I have to tell you that your mother and I are divorcing. Forty-five years of misery is enough."

"Pop, what are you talking about?" the son screams.

"We can't stand the sight of each other any longer," the old man says.
"We're sick of each other, and I'm sick of talking about this, so you call
your sister in Chicago and tell her," and he hangs up.

Frantic, the son calls his sister, who explodes on the phone, "Like heck
they're getting divorced," she shouts."I'll take care of this." 
She calls her father immediately and screams at the old man, "You are NOT getting divorced! Don't do a single thing until I get there. I'm calling my 
brother back, and we'll both be there tomorrow.  Until then, don't do a thing, DO YOU HEAR ME?" and hangs up.

The old man hangs up his phone and turns to his wife. 

"Okay," he says, "they're coming for Passover and paying their own airfares. Now, we have to think up something for Rosh Hashana"



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/49904d2f/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Wed May  7 13:43:47 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:43:47 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>

Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues.  
Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was  
the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him  
off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as 
 well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from 
late  second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me 
off.  But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always 
heard of  the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived 
at the  time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate 
with me.  Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping 
block. It  was different times for different cultures, but I think what never 
changes, is  the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our 
God  with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.  
 
And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as  a burnt 
offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice  in those 
same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest  Yahovah 
destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in  the same 
light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was  said, and 
blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the  Romans killed 
him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous  Jewish martyrs  who took 
death rather than deny the holy commandments  of God? In any case to be honest 
I'm being forced to think in ways I have  not thought before. It's Ross' fault, 
so Ross now solve this issue for us.  Just kidding.  



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c1e8dbc0/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:32:19 -0400
Size: 20441
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c1e8dbc0/attachment.mht 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 13:46:07 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 11:46:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS77D76AE8C2F2E866F828EBAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/f75bc2ba/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 14:22:02 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:22:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS77EDBB017192C99AEDEC0BAD10@phx.gbl>

Hi Tracy,

Though human blood has been spilled, and sadly, there have been countless martyrs, I don't see in the Torah their blood portrayed as covering our sins or bestowing eternal life, two things that only HaSHem gives by His grace as we repent of our sins and follow Him.  Like I said before, I am wholeheartedly convinced that He would have spelled out this most stringent of all requirements with directness and precision, as He did with His other instructions.

Also, I understand the "Blood Covenant" between the Children of Israel, and HaSHem as being Circumcision.  

The other Scriptures that you quote concerning what I believe to be the Messianic figure, affect "salvation" in terms of setting the world in godly order, I believe, as opposed to a heavenly, saved-by-the-blood, salvation of eternal life as found in pagan religions.  I know this sounds harsh, and I hate to be so unyielding.  I'm just trying to explain what I see in the Tenach that I feel differs radically from what I learned in Christianity.  If we are attributing what only HaSHem does for us (forgiving our sins and granting eternal life) to a man, even His chosen and anointed man, then we are in danger of remaining in our sins and missing out on that life we so covet.

Love,

Pat




From: Tracy Osborne 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:46 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


      I'm wondering how these verses figure in to this discussion or does it not?



      Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.



      What else does the sword create, but blood?



      Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.



      To whom does HaShem speak?



      Is it not to the one HaShem had just described?



      Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

      Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

      Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.



      Was this not the Shepherd to whom the sword was to strike?



      Any ideas?







      --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


        From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 12:32 PM


        Hi Clyde,

        I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin.  Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah.  

        Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices.  Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism.  However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant.   We see this referred to in Judges 8:33.  This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles.  Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder.  Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world.  Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse.  In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice.  There are many more such examples.

        It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions.  I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us.  Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted.  The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions.  We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz.

        I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood.  I just can't see it.  In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us.  He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do.  He's just not ambiguous.  If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail.  It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath.  He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.   So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements.  I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference.

        And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal  of the curse of death.   Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place.  And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it."  But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...."  Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life:  "But if the wicked will turn  from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him:  in his righteousness that he has done he shall live."  Ezekiel 18:21-22

        I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully.  If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error.  

        Love to all of you,

        Pat





        From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
        Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


        GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

        Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

        Thank you so much, Patty,

        Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over.  The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think.

        But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished?  2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two cents.

        CB 





------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/b5dab45c/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Wed May  7 14:48:28 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:48:28 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS77EDBB017192C99AEDEC0BAD10@phx.gbl>
References: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<BLU125-DS77EDBB017192C99AEDEC0BAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050720081948.26820.4822078C00034EA3000068C422243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I, even I, am HaSHeM; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:11

Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I HaSHeM? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Isaiah 45:20-21

Yet I am HaSHeM thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Hosea 13:4
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/4b5a38b1/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Wed May  7 14:51:50 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:51:50 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Role of Messiah
In-Reply-To: <889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

An excellent point, Rick! As we have observed from our recent study of the Psalms, the heart cry has always been directed to HaSHeM in humility and contrition... as it also states in the book of the prophet:

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/0f49efec/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 14:57:09 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:57:09 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl>

Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return.  I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs.  For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach.  I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and give me life.

I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child.  When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon.

Love,

Pat      


From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb


Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.  

And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding.  





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/22d47e57/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed May  7 15:23:56 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 15:23:56 -0500
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <82689031-1210168249-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1224870004-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <009001c8b080$470e4880$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Thanks Patty, thank you for your thoughtful response as usual; that is where
I am as well after many years of study.  

And Ross, yes, from what I remember you gave a very thoughtful presentation
on this area, which covered, temples, kings and sacrifices and I believe
that you said that none of these were the idea, but were compensations. I
have a ton of scriptures that I took down as references, so yes, if anyone
is interested in following up further, I would add to you suggestion that
they check out your Sunday shul podcast on your website.

Shalom and Blessings,

Betty/Elisheva

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:51 AM
To: Dialogue List
Subject: Re: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

This was the subject of my "Messiah, part 3 on Sunday shul". You may want to
check this out if you have not done so.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>

Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:37:24 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view


Shalom Betty and thank you for responding to this most difficult issue. I am
still studying this and am currently of the thought that this is something
that YHWH ALLOWED, rather than something He wanted. Just like how Israel
wanted a King. So they got a king and all the troubles that go with it, like
war. One way I try to look at it on a personal level ? if I don?t sin, I
don?t need to sacrifice!! 
? 
Love, 
? 
Patty 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:52 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I
found it ?buried? amidst over a hundred others.? I think that you pose an
excellent question
not sure I have the answer
perhaps the actions of the
people will have an influence as they did before.? 
? 
According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the
people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways
.so perhaps it will happen
again?? Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice
to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not
necessary
I don?t have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the
answers. 
? 
These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the ?ideal? will
of HaShem?? And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He
did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought
them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or
sacrifices
instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and
they would be His people. 
? 
But what did? they do instead?? The text continues in a chilling
account
they did abominable things, including burning their sons and
daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it
come into His Heart!? This language in very strong!? 
? 
This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well
something that is
abhorrent to HaShem.? Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE
OTHER!? There is no mediator between G-d and man!? This is in Torah, and I
just don?t see how we can get around it.? It is repeated over and over in
Isaiah 43, 44, 45.? As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his
teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot
agree that his blood paid for my sins
I am responsible for my own sins, as I
believe we all are.? G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my
Redeemer. 
? 
As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that ?they will not hurt
of destroy on my Holy Mountain.? 
? 
I really don?t want to step on anybody?s toes or worse, anybody?s heart, but
I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be
the truth of Torah.? And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do
love and care for all of you. 
? 
Shalom and Blessings, 
? 
Betty/Elisheva 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Hi Betty and All, 
? 
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the
sins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments. 
? 
Patty 
? 
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick
yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.? You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion
which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah?
in the Jewish tradition. 
? 
No, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.? The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be
like the other nations
as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d. 
? 
This is my take
an now, I have got to run
as I have a ?million? things to do
today
 
? 
Brachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength! 
? 
Betty/Elisheva 
? 
? 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
? 
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"
 
 What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:
 
 Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.
 
 Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?
 
 Rick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: 

 Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of
Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not?God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem. 

 ? 

 However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think?determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance?for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua?had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the?translations. 

 ? 

 In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
?When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin? 

 ? 

 And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the
Tanach?that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no
longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah
would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners
repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin,
how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some
hard questions are set before us. 

 ? 

 Take care 

 ? 

 CB????? 
? _______________________________________________




From youngbarzel at aol.com  Wed May  7 16:06:08 2008
From: youngbarzel at aol.com (youngbarzel at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:06:08 -0400
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <009001c8b080$470e4880$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <8CA7E9D4E344AF7-16C8-1FF8@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>

Shalom to all, or should I say, "y'all?"? :-)

???? I haven't had much time to post, but have been following the 'back and forth,' and personally, (and especially not having the same religious background of most of you) appreciate all the time, effort and thought to post all they have.??

???? Ross, I haven't had the pleasure of hearing your 'take' on those points (yeah, I'm?STILL gonna wait for?it to be published...I'm a 'hardcopy' kind of guy, it seems), but my understanding, having studied?exclusively Jewish sources on these subjects is to 'generally' agree with you and Betty.? In terms of a King?- NO DOUBT, the people demanded it, it was NOT what HaShem wanted - the text is clear on that.? In terms of sacrifices, Jewish sources are divided on the subject, but my PERSONAL take is that it was an accommodation to the era...and those nations around us.? There is also SIGNIFICANT Jewish thought, that the Third Temple (May it be built this week..) will NOT?have sacrifices - but there is clearly a difference of opinion.

???? My thoughts about it?? I want us to clear off the abomination on?HaShem's Chosen Mountain (the Har Habayit - the Temple Mount), rebuild the Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple), and we can discuss it during that time, okay?? By then, we'll all have honed the skill of true Dialogue to an art form!? :-)
????
???? May we all experience a sobering experience today on Yom HaZikaron - Israel's 'Memorial Day,' and may we celebrate, and be grateful for?THE miracle of our time - Yom Ha'Atzmaut - Israel's 60th, Baruch HaShem!

?????B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
??????????????? Hanoch? the Lil Lion of Judah

???? 


-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 7 May 2008 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view



Thanks Patty, thank you for your thoughtful response as usual; that is where
 am as well after many years of study.  
And Ross, yes, from what I remember you gave a very thoughtful presentation
n this area, which covered, temples, kings and sacrifices and I believe
hat you said that none of these were the idea, but were compensations. I
ave a ton of scriptures that I took down as references, so yes, if anyone
s interested in following up further, I would add to you suggestion that
hey check out your Sunday shul podcast on your website.
Shalom and Blessings,
Betty/Elisheva
-----Original Message-----
rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols
ent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:51 AM
o: Dialogue List
ubject: Re: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
This was the subject of my "Messiah, part 3 on Sunday shul". You may want to
heck this out if you have not done so.
ent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
rom: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:37:24 
o:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
ubject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

halom Betty and thank you for responding to this most difficult issue. I am
till studying this and am currently of the thought that this is something
hat YHWH ALLOWED, rather than something He wanted. Just like how Israel
anted a King. So they got a king and all the troubles that go with it, like
ar. One way I try to look at it on a personal level ? if I don?t sin, I
on?t need to sacrifice!! 
 
ove, 
 
atty 
 


rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:52 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
atty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I
ound it ?buried? amidst over a hundred others.? I think that you pose an
xcellent question?not sure I have the answer?perhaps the actions of the
eople will have an influence as they did before.? 
 
ccording to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the
eople did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways?.so perhaps it will happen
gain?? Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice
o be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not
ecessary?I don?t have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the
nswers. 
 
hese are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the ?ideal? will
f HaShem?? And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He
id not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought
hem out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or
acrifices?instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and
hey would be His people. 
 
ut what did? they do instead?? The text continues in a chilling
ccount?they did abominable things, including burning their sons and
aughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it
ome into His Heart!? This language in very strong!? 
 
his speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well?something that is
bhorrent to HaShem.? Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE
THER!? There is no mediator between G-d and man!? This is in Torah, and I
ust don?t see how we can get around it.? It is repeated over and over in
saiah 43, 44, 45.? As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his
eachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot
gree that his blood paid for my sins?I am responsible for my own sins, as I
elieve we all are.? G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my
edeemer. 
 
s far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that ?they will not hurt
f destroy on my Holy Mountain.? 
 
 really don?t want to step on anybody?s toes or worse, anybody?s heart, but
 cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be
he truth of Torah.? And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do
ove and care for all of you. 
 
halom and Blessings, 
 
etty/Elisheva 


---------------

rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty 
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
i Betty and All, 
 
hat do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
he future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to ?atone for the
ins of Israel?? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
n the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
acrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments. 
 
atty 
 


rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
hanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick?yes, this is where the rubber meets the
oad in the way of tough issues.? You make a good point here, Rick,
egarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion?which in a
ense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the ?mikvah?
n the Jewish tradition. 
 
o, I don?t think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
ffered.? The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
llowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people?s desire to be
ike the other nations?as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
way the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d. 
 
his is my take?an now, I have got to run?as I have a ?million? things to do
oday? 
 
rachot v?Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
ouls, strength! 
 
etty/Elisheva 
 
 


---------------

rom: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
 
B, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive where there
s repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"

What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:

Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
roclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
orgiven.

Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
o be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?

Rick






On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: 
 Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of
eshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
estoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
nswer the question of whether or not?God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
od did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
orrect interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
ialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
heirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
roup we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
iews on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
inistry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
xample. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
s difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
eferring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
f you have discovered the same problem. 
 ? 
 However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
hink?determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
ave not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
n the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
econd hindrance?for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
hrough the faith of Yeshua?had to emphasis his role over and over again,
nd it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
heir writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
ahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
 bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
ix the?translations. 
 ? 
 In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
aise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
oes his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
f course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
ince a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
asn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
t take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
oats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
nimals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah?just show mercy and forgive
here there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
equired to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
ifference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
or sin? 
 ? 
 And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
estruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
lood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
o longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the
anach?that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no
onger require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah
ould just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners
epentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin,
ow is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some
ard questions are set before us. 
 ? 
 Take care 
 ? 
 CB????? 
 _______________________________________________

______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/1ad370e0/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Wed May  7 17:02:03 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:02:03 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>
	<BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>

Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal 
sacrifices? My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to 
kindly remind me if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would 
get to read this and should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As 
Christians we were taught, and I believe it comes from the influence of 
the New Testament. As if we are better off now when we don't need to 
sacrifice animals and forget that we are constantly sacrificing animals 
for no other reason but to satiate our appetites for meat.

 I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all 
know that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way 
when they are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you 
hear of a righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the 
Torah of HaShem's chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, 
yes, Jacob apparently waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from 
an animal likely hunted down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals 
that had to sacrifice their life to die a fearful death. At least to the 
best of my understanding in most slaughtering houses the carefulness of 
not torturing an animal before death is not taken near as serious as is 
the carefulness that HaShem has taught His chosen people when they 
sacrificed animals to have the least possible pain when they die. I have 
seen it in a video how they have to have the sharpest of knives to cut 
the veins in such a way that the animal does not know what has happened. 
I understand there is no struggle at death either when it is done right, 
when they bleed to death that way it is totally painless. And most of 
the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher eating. For the purpose of 
rejoicing in the providence and greatness of their G-d.

Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from 
torturing a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New 
Testament, portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like 
the Romans did it.  And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah  as 
portended in that movie we are all familiar with, is blamed on the 
Jewish people!!!!!!!

 If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice,  in Bible times, 
would have been  the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's 
life for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more 
dedicated life in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are 
of the 12 tribes, did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of 
repentance as, again the New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I 
wrong? Please help me get this straight if I have failed to use the 
right words to describe it, what the truth really is according to Torah, 
concerning sacrifices. As I understand it, a sin offering would never 
have supposed to happen before a person first repented of the sin.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote:
> Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid 
> going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  
> We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was 
> the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to 
> Return.  I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing 
> to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs.  For me, 
> even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will 
> not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach.  I don't 
> doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to believe that his blood 
> atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I 
> cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He 
> Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and 
> give me life.
>  
> I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for 
> sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the 
> poster child.  When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in 
> the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have 
> drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly 
> fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk 
> the wine of Babylon.
>  
> Love,
>  
> Pat     
>
> *From:* CBrown4465 at aol.com <mailto:CBrown4465 at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
>
> Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these 
> dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have 
> quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his 
> blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. 
> Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but 
> frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple 
> Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I 
> also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard 
> of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he 
> lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does 
> not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there 
> on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, 
> but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments 
> of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, 
> and our neighbor as ourselves.  
>  
> And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a 
> burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a 
> sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children 
> of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at 
> the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the 
> gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps 
> Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't 
> it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who took death rather 
> than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm 
> being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' 
> fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. *Just kidding*.  
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
> favorites at AOL Food 
> <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/444b2109/attachment.html 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Wed May  7 17:52:04 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 08:52:04 +1000
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb]
Message-ID: <48223294.3020900@westnet.com.au>

Shalom Cornie,
                       I admire your humble honesty. You hit the nail on 
the head with regards to this discussion. Unfortunately I have to 
urgently attend some building site meetings. However when I return I 
would love to expand some very good issues that you raised in your post. 
Architecture and building construction have helped me no end in 
understanding  some very basic principles in HaShem's building programme 
.Again thank you for your interesting observations. Until later.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
JOE.
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 17:02:03 -0500
Size: 20710
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/190db3f2/attachment.eml 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed May  7 18:08:45 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:08:45 -0500
Subject: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
In-Reply-To: <8CA7E9D4E344AF7-16C8-1FF8@FWM-M35.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c8b097$4d6fc520$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Dear Ya'll (this is for Hanoch!)

 

I literally have two minutes before I have to leave.I am going to a Yom
HaZikaron service this evening to honor our fallen Israeli soldiers and to
pray for the ones still in captivity and also the ones who are still risking
their lives every day for the sake of Eretz Yisrael!  What a debt of
gratitude we owe them!

 

I started from the "top" this time, and I did not have time to go thru all
the new posts that came in today while I was away from my computer.  I am
hoping to get to some of them later this evening after I get back in this
evening if time permits.  I have to work on "fine tuning" my resume for a
teaching position next year.which is something that I sorely need!!!

 

But, just wanted to take out a minute or two or three.and say thanks to our
buddy and brother Hanoch and to all of you for your contributions to our
list! I very much realize that there are differences of opinion in all these
things both within Judaism and certainly amongst our group.

 

I too appreciate the time and energy that all have put into the 'dialogue'
as well as the manner of consideration and respect that is evidenced in each
text.  Again, whether, we agree or disagree with one another, I think we
would all have to agree on that point.

 

Again, you guys are amazing!!!

 

Take care each and every one and may we together pray for the soldiers of
the IDF and celebrate the 60th anniversary of Yisrael!!!

 

Love and Blessings,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of youngbarzel at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:06 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

 

Shalom to all, or should I say, "y'all?"  :-)

     I haven't had much time to post, but have been following the 'back and
forth,' and personally, (and especially not having the same religious
background of most of you) appreciate all the time, effort and thought to
post all they have.  

     Ross, I haven't had the pleasure of hearing your 'take' on those points
(yeah, I'm STILL gonna wait for it to be published...I'm a 'hardcopy' kind
of guy, it seems), but my understanding, having studied exclusively Jewish
sources on these subjects is to 'generally' agree with you and Betty.  In
terms of a King - NO DOUBT, the people demanded it, it was NOT what HaShem
wanted - the text is clear on that.  In terms of sacrifices, Jewish sources
are divided on the subject, but my PERSONAL take is that it was an
accommodation to the era...and those nations around us.  There is also
SIGNIFICANT Jewish thought, that the Third Temple (May it be built this
week..) will NOT have sacrifices - but there is clearly a difference of
opinion.

     My thoughts about it?  I want us to clear off the abomination on
HaShem's Chosen Mountain (the Har Habayit - the Temple Mount), rebuild the
Bet HaMikdash (Holy Temple), and we can discuss it during that time, okay?
By then, we'll all have honed the skill of true Dialogue to an art form!
:-)
    
     May we all experience a sobering experience today on Yom HaZikaron -
Israel's 'Memorial Day,' and may we celebrate, and be grateful for THE
miracle of our time - Yom Ha'Atzmaut - Israel's 60th, Baruch HaShem!

     B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

     


-----Original Message-----
From: Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net>
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Sent: Wed, 7 May 2008 4:23 pm
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view

Thanks Patty, thank you for your thoughtful response as usual; that is where
I am as well after many years of study.  
 
And Ross, yes, from what I remember you gave a very thoughtful presentation
on this area, which covered, temples, kings and sacrifices and I believe
that you said that none of these were the idea, but were compensations. I
have a ton of scriptures that I took down as references, so yes, if anyone
is interested in following up further, I would add to you suggestion that
they check out your Sunday shul podcast on your website.
 
Shalom and Blessings,
 
Betty/Elisheva
 
-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:51 AM
To: Dialogue List
Subject: Re: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
This was the subject of my "Messiah, part 3 on Sunday shul". You may want to
check this out if you have not done so.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Patty " <ptyler at aac-usa.com>
 
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 09:37:24 
To:<dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
 
 
Shalom Betty and thank you for responding to this most difficult issue. I am
still studying this and am currently of the thought that this is something
that YHWH ALLOWED, rather than something He wanted. Just like how Israel
wanted a King. So they got a king and all the troubles that go with it, like
war. One way I try to look at it on a personal level - if I don't sin, I
don't need to sacrifice!! 
  
Love, 
  
Patty 
  
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 11:52 PM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: Patty[Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  
Patty, even though it looks like you just wrote this post last night, I
found it "buried" amidst over a hundred others.  I think that you pose an
excellent question.not sure I have the answer.perhaps the actions of the
people will have an influence as they did before.  
  
According to my studies, the sacrifices were put into place because the
people did not obey HaShem and walk in His ways..so perhaps it will happen
again?  Or perhaps everything will be in readiness for the first sacrifice
to be made, and perhaps HaShem will give the instruction that it is not
necessary.I don't have all the answers nor do I want to pretend to have the
answers. 
  
These are difficult questions, yet were sacrifices really the "ideal" will
of HaShem?  And if so, why does He explicitly say in Jeremiah 7:22 that He
did not speak to their fathers nor command them in the day that He brought
them out of the land of Mitzrayim, concerning burnt offerings or
sacrifices.instead He commanded them to Obey Him and walk in His ways and
they would be His people. 
  
But what did  they do instead?  The text continues in a chilling
account.they did abominable things, including burning their sons and
daughters in the fire, which HaShem says he did not command them nor did it
come into His Heart!  This language in very strong!  
  
This speaks volumes about human sacrifice as well.something that is
abhorrent to HaShem.  Again, He, G-d is our Saviour and there is NONE
OTHER!  There is no mediator between G-d and man!  This is in Torah, and I
just don't see how we can get around it.  It is repeated over and over in
Isaiah 43, 44, 45.  As I have stated before, I love Yeshua, for it was his
teachings that brought me to the Father and to a love of Torah, but I cannot
agree that his blood paid for my sins.I am responsible for my own sins, as I
believe we all are.  G-d, the One G-d of Israel, HaShem, the Father, is my
Redeemer. 
  
As far as the sacrificial system goes, we also read that "they will not hurt
of destroy on my Holy Mountain." 
  
I really don't want to step on anybody's toes or worse, anybody's heart, but
I cannot be silent about what I believe and go against what I believe to be
the truth of Torah.  And I say this with deepest love and respect, for I do
love and care for all of you. 
  
Shalom and Blessings, 
  
Betty/Elisheva 
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Patty 
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  
Hi Betty and All, 
  
What do we do then, about the explicit instructions for blood sacrifices in
the future Temple as described in Ezekiel (esp. 43-45) to "atone for the
sins of Israel"? Is this perhaps one of many possible outcomes that depends
on the behavior of the people? Can the repentance of Israel influence the
sacrificial system of the Temple? Looking forward to any comments. 
  
Patty 
  
 
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Betty Givin
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:25 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  
Thanks for the posts, Clyde and Rick.yes, this is where the rubber meets the
road in the way of tough issues.  You make a good point here, Rick,
regarding Yochanan the Immerser and his proclamation of immersion.which in a
sense was not a new thing, as it was based on the ideas behind the "mikvah"
in the Jewish tradition. 
  
No, I don't think any sacrifice, except that of prayer, was meant to be
offered.  The whole sacrificial system, I believe, was something that HaShem
allowed, much like he allowed a king, because of the people's desire to be
like the other nations.as I understand it, it was never the blood that took
away the sins anyway, it was the condition of the heart towards G-d. 
  
This is my take.an now, I have got to run.as I have a 'million' things to do
today. 
  
Brachot v'Shalom to all as we study and seek HaShem with all our hearts,
souls, strength! 
  
Betty/Elisheva 
  
  
 
 
----------------
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org?> ] On Behalf Of Rick Gozhanskij
 Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 9:07 AM
 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
 Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view 
  
CB, You asked, "Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive where there
is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?"
 
 What was John the Immerser preaching in Mark? It is reported he was:
 
 Mark 1:4 So it was that Yochanan the Immerser appeared in the desert,
proclaiming an immersion involving turning to God from sin in order to be
forgiven.
 
 Was John preaching a new doctrine because he does not mention any sacrifice
to be offered. Or are we just to assume he was meaning that also?
 
 Rick
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On May 5, 2008, at 8:17 AM, CBrown4465 at aol.com wrote: 
 
 Well, our attention has been drawn to (1) the historical ministry of
Yeshua, and (2) the role or roles of the risen Yeshua in the redemption and
restoration plan of God. I suppose the rubber meets the road in how we each
answer the question of whether or not God raised Yeshua from the dead? If
God did not raise him from the dead - we have a marvelous teacher of the
correct interpretation of how the Torah of God should be kept. On the
dialogue we have different views on the resurrection and each have come to
theirs in different ways I suppose. It is wonderful that in such a diverse
group we can discuss these issues in a friendly manner without pushing our
views on each other. In seems that we all agree in reading the historical
ministry of Yeshua he is Torah observant and teaches us to follow his
example. In my own studies I have observed that anti-Torah translators give
us difficulty in that they fail to distinguish between when the word LORD is
referring to Yahovah, and when lord, i.e. is Yeshua as master. I'm sure each
of you have discovered the same problem. 
 
   
 
 However, for us Torah observant folks carefully attention to the context I
think determines in a great many cases where we should render Yahovah. I
have not counted them but there are enough instances that will place Yahovah
in the superior position, such as MY Father is greater than I. I think a
second hindrance for us is the fact that those who believed in God's grace
through the faith of Yeshua had to emphasis his role over and over again,
and it can give the appearance that Yeshua is being given too much space in
their writings. This can give the impression that Yeshua is equal to
Yahovah, and of course this is what translators wish to do. For me the more
I bath my mind in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the easer it becomes to
fix the translations. 
 
   
 
 In any case it is the second category where diverse views emerge. Did God
raise Yeshua from the dead? If God did raise him from the dead what role
does his death and shed blood play in the redemption and restoration of God.
Of course if God did not raise him from the dead the question has no value,
since a dead man can add nothing to the plan of God. Also one could ask,
wasn't the blood of bulls and goats as atonements for sin enough? Why would
it take the shed blood of Yeshua to do what the shed blood of bulls and
goats could not do? Or even yet why did Yahovah require the shed blood of
animals in the first place? Why couldn't Yahovah just show mercy and forgive
where there is repentance, and leave off the sprinkling of blood thing?
 When someone sins against us or we sin against another we or they are
required to forgive, and not require each others blood. What is the
difference where unlike us, Yahovah did require blood sacrifice as atonement
for sin? 
 
   
 
 And where does that leave us today since blood sacrifice ceased with the
destruction of the second Temple? Did Yahovah finally decide to do away with
blood sacrifice for atonement for sins, and decide He would just forgive and
no longer require blood sacrifice for sin? Do we have evidence in the
Tanach that they day would come when Yahovah would change his mind and no
longer require the shed blood of animals for atonement? That is Yahovah
would just show mercy and forgive, requiring no more that the sinners
repentance? On the other hand, if Yahovah still requires atonement for sin,
how is that atonement accomplished. Well if I have done nothing else, some
hard questions are set before us. 
 
   
 
 Take care 
 
   
 
 CB      
  _______________________________________________
 
 
_______________________________________________
  _____  


Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com
<http://www.mapquest.com/?ncid=mpqmap00030000000004> : America's #1 Mapping
Site. 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/e879ef12/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Wed May  7 18:15:13 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:15:13 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a
	HebraicPerspective
In-Reply-To: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
References: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>

Hello to Joe and everyone else!

 

Several new names since I last wrote...  good to have you aboard.  I have
been reading and enjoying the learning these last few weeks since the UIWU
conference.  Regardless of where you are standing in your current
understanding of things....  keep searching and reading and praying...
Hashem is calling and people are listening.  Some of you guys that have been
around 20 years or so, see things changing from how they were in the middle
80's or 90's.  The sounding of the Shofar that started as a very soft
whisper  is slowly growing stronger.

I'm reminded of the first time I heard the sound of the shofar.  If memory
serves me correct. The story was told of how the sound of the shofar that
was blown at Mt. Sinai,  waxed greater and greater......  whereas it should
have started off loud and then wax softer and softer as the one doing the
blowing ran out of air.  But in this case, in Moses' day at the mount, the
sound grew louder and louder. At this point Rabbi M. Katz, put the shofar to
his lips and chills ran down my spine and the hair on the back of my neck
stood up.  I wondered if I was hearing the shofar for the first time or if I
had heard it that day with Moses and the rest of the congregation. (I want
to believe I heard it with the whole congregation).

 

Once again the shofar is slowly and softly being blown......  I believe it
is starting to wax louder....  listen..... can you hear it....  listen with
your heart.....  can you hear it.....   As I write this, The music is
playing to Psalm 13 sung in Hebrew.....(thanks Joe)  a few words I
understand.  But my heart and sprit understands more. I have replayed this
song at least 10 times and felt God's love and compassion or as we say
"God's spirit".  

At this point I have not read the psalm. I only know the title "ad_anah"/
How long O Lord?

Life is full for all of us. I have been working on the house and doing some
Moving....  out of town for a few days...  moving some more stuff....  and
just living.  Also trying to stay on top of 100's ....  of dialogue e-mails.
I was moving a load of furniture this morning. The radio was on NPR and
there was a story about recognizing soldiers and thinking them for their
service to our country.  My mind was a million miles away I was lost in
thought and when I came to myself,  tears were running down my cheeks and I
was praying for soldiers. But not just American soldiers, I was praying for
all soldiers and praying in biblical language asking God, How long till we
beat out swords into plows...  how long O God till we / you stop war and we
study war no more and we live in peace with our brothers.  Hashem and I had
a good conversation, I did all the talking and he mostly listened....  but
my soul felt clean by the time I step out of the truck.

I came in the house to check e-mail and Joe sent this music.  I opened the
link and let it play while I read dialogue e-mails. My spirit is in touch
with the music although I did not understand the words. Then I opened
Hanoch's   Lekarev Report....                     


REMEMBERING THE FALLEN


"At  11 am this morning, sirens wailed throughout the nation of Israel as
the country paused for two minutes of silence to remember the 22,437 IDF
soldiers who have perished in defense of the Jewish state."

My spirit broke again as I read the article and as the tears poured forth
the same words from the prayer several hours earlier came forth also. When
this happens I have learned to stop what I'm doing and talk to the Father.
I prayed  and talked to God, Psalm 13 being sung in Hebrew in the
background,  I still don't have a clue as to what Psa. 13 says.   As my day
started this morning I did not know they would be "remembering the fallen"
in Israel to day.  But, Hashem must have put that into my spirit because it
is what my day has been centered around.  Maybe. It is an awaking to the
"code" that is in our DNA that working to call us back and to bring us
together. The article went on to say: 

"The prime minister also spoke of the significance of the tradition: "On
this unique day all barriers collapse. The sense of unity and togetherness
is more powerful than at any other event. Remembrance Day for Israel's
fallen is a disheartening day, but it is untainted with disagreement."

 

Psa 13, Ad_anah  stilling playing.....  20 times now.  I'm stopping to read
Psa 13....

 

After reading Psa.13........this was the prayer from my heart as I traveled
down the road.

 

How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? forever? how long wilt thou hide thy
face from me? 

How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily?
how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? 

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the
sleep of death; 

Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me
rejoice when I am moved. 

But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. 

I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully

 

 

Most of the rabbinical writers understand it as referring to the whole
Hebrew people, and as expressing their sentiments and feelings in times of
persecution in general. Kimchi understands it as referring to the present
exile and trials of the Jewish people.    All I know is that I was feeling
this in my heart and soul this morning and it returned several hours later
and my spirit cried out O Lord, how long will you hide your face form us?
How long O God till we see peace in the land.   As I read the Psalm I felt
the same love, compassion, Hashem's  spirit  I felt this morning.  For the
third time my spirit broke and I wept as I read the Psalm.  I wanted to
share this with you guys. Who else can I tell that might understand.   I
guess it would have to be someone who has heard and heeded the call.   

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]
<mailto:%5bmailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org%5d>  On Behalf Of JOE
INDOMENICO
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:06 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a
HebraicPerspective

 

Shalom Hanoch,

just walked in and was confronted by the sad 

news regarding Naftali Ben Gila. To have the lives of 8 young yeshiva 

students snuffed out was outrageous enough, but to hear this sudden 

deterioration in his condition is very disturbing.

These young boys where the future rabbis of the 

Shomron (settlements). So these murderous Palestinian thugs made a very 

strong statement against the Holy One of Yisrael. Of course they would 

never do this to the political leaders of the secular government because 

these traitors are their allies in the dismantling of the settlements.

This callous murdering of the future spiritual 

leaders of Yisrael is a cold calculated statement by the enemy that 

there is no future not only for the settlers but for the entire Jewish 

nation. The Holy One , blessed be He has other ideas.

I am sending this musical link for Psalm 13  

sung in Hebrew for you to download and listen. The power of this prayer 

is in Hebrew. For those who cannot understand Hebrew , please still 

listen to the words as you meditate.

Please Hanoch keep us informed of Naftali's 

progress.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem JOE.

http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm
<http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm&PHPSESSID=97
3d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707> &PHPSESSID=973d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707 

 

_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/9e032dd7/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 19:08:01 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:08:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <964016.42432.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/74500da4/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 19:16:11 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:16:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <836036.29143.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/b7cf445c/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 20:01:35 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:31:35 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from
	aHebraicPerspective
In-Reply-To: <014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
	<014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <FCCE29D24F0149FC901DCE67460F9861@JessicaPC>

Shalom Marvin, you heartbreaker,
I also played the Psalm several times last night - it is indeed 'touching' to listen to. 
Recently on April 25th, Australia remembered her fallen men and women of both the great wars and also those of all wars we have had the misfortune to lose loved ones in since then. I attended the little ceremony that was held in my village, and Marvin - it brought me to tears. (It was a sombre weekend as I also attended a funeral the next day) We owe so much to so many and we pause for just a few minutes or hours in one day a year as a nation to pay homage to their 'sacrifice'. And not only for those who gave/lost their lives, but also those who returned with horrific injuries both physical, mental & emotional. 
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. 
I have the Psalm playing again as I write and remember the fallen ones of Israel. Very sobering.
And thank you Joe for forwarding the link. 
Brachot v'Shalom
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mhyde 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:45 AM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from aHebraicPerspective


  Hello to Joe and everyone else!

   

  Several new names since I last wrote...  good to have you aboard.  I have been reading and enjoying the learning these last few weeks since the UIWU conference.  Regardless of where you are standing in your current understanding of things....  keep searching and reading and praying...  Hashem is calling and people are listening.  Some of you guys that have been around 20 years or so, see things changing from how they were in the middle 80's or 90's.  The sounding of the Shofar that started as a very soft whisper  is slowly growing stronger.

  I'm reminded of the first time I heard the sound of the shofar.  If memory serves me correct. The story was told of how the sound of the shofar that was blown at Mt. Sinai,  waxed greater and greater......  whereas it should have started off loud and then wax softer and softer as the one doing the blowing ran out of air.  But in this case, in Moses' day at the mount, the sound grew louder and louder. At this point Rabbi M. Katz, put the shofar to his lips and chills ran down my spine and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  I wondered if I was hearing the shofar for the first time or if I had heard it that day with Moses and the rest of the congregation. (I want to believe I heard it with the whole congregation).

   

  Once again the shofar is slowly and softly being blown......  I believe it is starting to wax louder....  listen..... can you hear it....  listen with your heart.....  can you hear it.....   As I write this, The music is playing to Psalm 13 sung in Hebrew.....(thanks Joe)  a few words I understand.  But my heart and sprit understands more. I have replayed this song at least 10 times and felt God's love and compassion or as we say "God's spirit".  

  At this point I have not read the psalm. I only know the title "ad_anah"/ How long O Lord?

  Life is full for all of us. I have been working on the house and doing some Moving....  out of town for a few days...  moving some more stuff....  and just living.  Also trying to stay on top of 100's ....  of dialogue e-mails. I was moving a load of furniture this morning. The radio was on NPR and there was a story about recognizing soldiers and thinking them for their service to our country.  My mind was a million miles away I was lost in thought and when I came to myself,  tears were running down my cheeks and I was praying for soldiers. But not just American soldiers, I was praying for all soldiers and praying in biblical language asking God, How long till we beat out swords into plows...  how long O God till we / you stop war and we study war no more and we live in peace with our brothers.  Hashem and I had a good conversation, I did all the talking and he mostly listened....  but my soul felt clean by the time I step out of the truck.

  I came in the house to check e-mail and Joe sent this music.  I opened the link and let it play while I read dialogue e-mails. My spirit is in touch with the music although I did not understand the words. Then I opened Hanoch's   Lekarev Report....                     

  REMEMBERING THE FALLEN
  "At  11 am this morning, sirens wailed throughout the nation of Israel as the country paused for two minutes of silence to remember the 22,437 IDF soldiers who have perished in defense of the Jewish state."

  My spirit broke again as I read the article and as the tears poured forth the same words from the prayer several hours earlier came forth also. When this happens I have learned to stop what I'm doing and talk to the Father.   I prayed  and talked to God, Psalm 13 being sung in Hebrew in the background,  I still don't have a clue as to what Psa. 13 says.   As my day started this morning I did not know they would be "remembering the fallen" in Israel to day.  But, Hashem must have put that into my spirit because it is what my day has been centered around.  Maybe. It is an awaking to the "code" that is in our DNA that working to call us back and to bring us together. The article went on to say: 

  "The prime minister also spoke of the significance of the tradition: "On this unique day all barriers collapse. The sense of unity and togetherness is more powerful than at any other event. Remembrance Day for Israel's fallen is a disheartening day, but it is untainted with disagreement."

   

  Psa 13, Ad_anah  stilling playing.....  20 times now.  I'm stopping to read Psa 13....

   

  After reading Psa.13........this was the prayer from my heart as I traveled down the road.

   

  How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? forever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me? 

  How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? 

  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; 

  Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved. 

  But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. 

  I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully

   

   

  Most of the rabbinical writers understand it as referring to the whole Hebrew people, and as expressing their sentiments and feelings in times of persecution in general. Kimchi understands it as referring to the present exile and trials of the Jewish people.    All I know is that I was feeling this in my heart and soul this morning and it returned several hours later and my spirit cried out O Lord, how long will you hide your face form us?  How long O God till we see peace in the land.   As I read the Psalm I felt the same love, compassion, Hashem's  spirit  I felt this morning.  For the third time my spirit broke and I wept as I read the Psalm.  I wanted to share this with you guys. Who else can I tell that might understand.   I guess it would have to be someone who has heard and heeded the call.   

   

  Shalom,

  marvin

   

   

   

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:06 AM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a HebraicPerspective

   

  Shalom Hanoch,

  just walked in and was confronted by the sad 

  news regarding Naftali Ben Gila. To have the lives of 8 young yeshiva 

  students snuffed out was outrageous enough, but to hear this sudden 

  deterioration in his condition is very disturbing.

  These young boys where the future rabbis of the 

  Shomron (settlements). So these murderous Palestinian thugs made a very 

  strong statement against the Holy One of Yisrael. Of course they would 

  never do this to the political leaders of the secular government because 

  these traitors are their allies in the dismantling of the settlements.

  This callous murdering of the future spiritual 

  leaders of Yisrael is a cold calculated statement by the enemy that 

  there is no future not only for the settlers but for the entire Jewish 

  nation. The Holy One , blessed be He has other ideas.

  I am sending this musical link for Psalm 13  

  sung in Hebrew for you to download and listen. The power of this prayer 

  is in Hebrew. For those who cannot understand Hebrew , please still 

  listen to the words as you meditate.

  Please Hanoch keep us informed of Naftali's 

  progress.

  Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem JOE.

  http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm&PHPSESSID=973d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707 

   

  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/a5a4a82e/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 20:37:23 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:07:23 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <692093.3226.qm@web51111.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <12EA4335BE14419691881AB82459F2A6@JessicaPC>

Dear Tracy,
May I be so bold as to share my 'take' on these verses? I will anyway - as always, I am ready to take correction in order to learn. I have included my thoughts highlighted in your text. I have found it very difficult to let go of the Xtian brain washing, but now that I have let go, I am better able to understand the true meaning in the writings of the Prophets of Israel. (I am a work in progress)
Shalom
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tracy Osborne 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


        I'm wondering how these verses figure in to this discussion or does it not?



        Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, (Israel - who in all the world has shed more blood than HaShem's Firstborn Son?) and against the man that is my fellow, (Yacov)saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, (Israel) and the sheep (the whole House of Israel) shall be scattered: (done) and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.(the descendants of Yacov)



        What else does the sword create, but blood? (the blood of the Jews throughout history)



        Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant (circumcision) I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.(Yosef was placed in a pit with no water by his own brothers (the 'ten' brothers)(did not HaShem call Yosef the 'stick in the hand of Ephraim?)



        To whom does HaShem speak? (the whole house of Israel)



        Is it not to the one HaShem had just described? (yes)



        Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: (HaShem's bride to be - reunified Israel) behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. (don't be fooled by certain scribes of the NT who persued the idea that Yeshua 'came to fulfil' certain prophecies)

        Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, (end the war between Yehuda and Ephraim) and the battle bow shall be cut off: (the end of the wars and all animosity) and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: (Israel is the Light unto the Nations) and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. (the salvation of all the earth depends upon the salvation of the Whole House of Israel)

        Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (see above)



        Was this not the Shepherd to whom the sword was to strike? (yes - and no sword has ever struck any as it has struck His Chosen Nation - His Eternal Inheritance)



        Any ideas???







        --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


          From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
          Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
          Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 12:32 PM


          Hi Clyde,

          I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin.  Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah.  

          Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices.  Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism.  However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant.   We see this referred to in Judges 8:33.  This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles.  Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder.  Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world.  Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse.  In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice.  There are many more such examples.

          It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions.  I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us.  Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted.  The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions.  We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz.

          I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood.  I just can't see it.  In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us.  He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do.  He's just not ambiguous.  If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail.  It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath.  He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.   So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements.  I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference.

          And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal  of the curse of death.   Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place.  And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it."  But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...."  Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life:  "But if the wicked will turn  from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him:  in his righteousness that he has done he shall live."  Ezekiel 18:21-22

          I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully.  If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error.  

          Love to all of you,

          Pat





          From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
          Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
          Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


          GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

          Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

          Thank you so much, Patty,

          Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over.  The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think.

          But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished?  2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two cents.

          CB 





----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


          _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/225bcf8b/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Wed May  7 20:42:41 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen Dennis)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:42:41 -0300
Subject: [Dialogue] Worth reading and thinking about....
References: <be0.3264ca46.354e7980@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004a01c8b0ac$ce7bea30$65012b0a@H02GGMADENNISS1>


A great sadness over these events has plagued me for many years.  An inconsolable grief experienced by many over the little girl in the red coat, immortalised in 'Schildler's List" ... 

Shalom

Stephen


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:29 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Worth reading and thinking about....


  Shavua tov to all - 

      This was on a site, written by someone after visiting Yad Vashem, Israel's memorial to the victims of the Holocaust - 3,000,000 of whom (still!) remain unnamed, unrecorded....

          Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
  Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...


              Jerusalem Watchman, April 30, 2008 
  Who were you, dark and
  Beautiful girl,
  Your limpid pools unplumbable?
  What did you see; what images rushed upon your fear-filled gaze
  To stay, indelible in your mind
  Until erased by death?
  Who were you? What joy was robbed
  And wrenched from those who loved you,
  Those whose hands had once stroked your soft,
  Sweet hair. And who you once
  Made smile?

  [Thoughts provoked on a recent visit to a Yad Vashem gallery of Holocaust victims]







------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/e7f36183/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 20:56:03 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 21:56:03 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>	<BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl>
	<482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com>

Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the
animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any
slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today
are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac
without realizing where it came from.  "If slaughterhouses had glass walls,
everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices?
My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me
if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and
should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I
believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are
better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we
are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our
appetites for meat.

 I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know
that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they
are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a
righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's
chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently
waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted
down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their
life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in
most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before
death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has
taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least
possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have
the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does
not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death
either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is
totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher
eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of
their G-d. 

Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a
human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays
concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it.  And
this specially cruel death of Yeshuah  as portended in that movie we are all
familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!!

 If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice,  in Bible times,
would have been  the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life
for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life
in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes,
did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the
New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this
straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the
truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand
it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first
repented of the sin.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote: 

Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid going
there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  We are the
repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was the detour off
His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return.  I think that if we
have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and
most foundational beliefs.  For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree
together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly
defined in Tenach.  I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to
believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life,
is something I cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it
is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and
give me life.

 

I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in
all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child.
When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand,
that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have drunk of her wine;
therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really
concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon.

 

Love,

 

Pat      

 

From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues.
Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul
was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write
him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed
blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years
removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I
mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not
have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man
where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just
does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on
the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I
think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and
to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor
as ourselves.  

 

And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt
offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those
same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah
destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the
same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said,
and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans
killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who
took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be
honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's
Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding.  





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  new twists
on family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________



 



  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
  
 



  _____  



 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008
7:46 AM
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/b77615ad/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 21:19:31 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:19:31 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from
	aHebraicPerspective
In-Reply-To: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
	<014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
	<014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS29B8F1A770AC09B70046CBAD00@phx.gbl>

Thank you so much for sharing this, Marvin.  I can hear the shofar calling us.  What a glorious sound!  It is getting louder.  

We may not all agree, but we are all His, and He will bring us to Himself because we give Him permission to do so.   I'll bet "How long, O L-RD" has been the cry of all our hearts as we yearn for His Shalom in the Earth.  How we long for the day when we beat our swords into plows, when mothers will not have to bear children who fight wars, and fathers will not have to bury sons and daughters, and wives and husbands and children will not grieve for those absent at their tables.

I found your email profoundly touching to read this evening when I came home, this Eighteenth Day of Counting the Omer.

Love,

Pat


From: mhyde 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:15 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from aHebraicPerspective


Hello to Joe and everyone else!

 

Several new names since I last wrote...  good to have you aboard.  I have been reading and enjoying the learning these last few weeks since the UIWU conference.  Regardless of where you are standing in your current understanding of things....  keep searching and reading and praying...  Hashem is calling and people are listening.  Some of you guys that have been around 20 years or so, see things changing from how they were in the middle 80's or 90's.  The sounding of the Shofar that started as a very soft whisper  is slowly growing stronger.

I'm reminded of the first time I heard the sound of the shofar.  If memory serves me correct. The story was told of how the sound of the shofar that was blown at Mt. Sinai,  waxed greater and greater......  whereas it should have started off loud and then wax softer and softer as the one doing the blowing ran out of air.  But in this case, in Moses' day at the mount, the sound grew louder and louder. At this point Rabbi M. Katz, put the shofar to his lips and chills ran down my spine and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  I wondered if I was hearing the shofar for the first time or if I had heard it that day with Moses and the rest of the congregation. (I want to believe I heard it with the whole congregation).

 

Once again the shofar is slowly and softly being blown......  I believe it is starting to wax louder....  listen..... can you hear it....  listen with your heart.....  can you hear it.....   As I write this, The music is playing to Psalm 13 sung in Hebrew.....(thanks Joe)  a few words I understand.  But my heart and sprit understands more. I have replayed this song at least 10 times and felt God's love and compassion or as we say "God's spirit".  

At this point I have not read the psalm. I only know the title "ad_anah"/ How long O Lord?

Life is full for all of us. I have been working on the house and doing some Moving....  out of town for a few days...  moving some more stuff....  and just living.  Also trying to stay on top of 100's ....  of dialogue e-mails. I was moving a load of furniture this morning. The radio was on NPR and there was a story about recognizing soldiers and thinking them for their service to our country.  My mind was a million miles away I was lost in thought and when I came to myself,  tears were running down my cheeks and I was praying for soldiers. But not just American soldiers, I was praying for all soldiers and praying in biblical language asking God, How long till we beat out swords into plows...  how long O God till we / you stop war and we study war no more and we live in peace with our brothers.  Hashem and I had a good conversation, I did all the talking and he mostly listened....  but my soul felt clean by the time I step out of the truck.

I came in the house to check e-mail and Joe sent this music.  I opened the link and let it play while I read dialogue e-mails. My spirit is in touch with the music although I did not understand the words. Then I opened Hanoch's   Lekarev Report....                     

REMEMBERING THE FALLEN
"At  11 am this morning, sirens wailed throughout the nation of Israel as the country paused for two minutes of silence to remember the 22,437 IDF soldiers who have perished in defense of the Jewish state."

My spirit broke again as I read the article and as the tears poured forth the same words from the prayer several hours earlier came forth also. When this happens I have learned to stop what I'm doing and talk to the Father.   I prayed  and talked to God, Psalm 13 being sung in Hebrew in the background,  I still don't have a clue as to what Psa. 13 says.   As my day started this morning I did not know they would be "remembering the fallen" in Israel to day.  But, Hashem must have put that into my spirit because it is what my day has been centered around.  Maybe. It is an awaking to the "code" that is in our DNA that working to call us back and to bring us together. The article went on to say: 

"The prime minister also spoke of the significance of the tradition: "On this unique day all barriers collapse. The sense of unity and togetherness is more powerful than at any other event. Remembrance Day for Israel's fallen is a disheartening day, but it is untainted with disagreement."

 

Psa 13, Ad_anah  stilling playing.....  20 times now.  I'm stopping to read Psa 13....

 

After reading Psa.13........this was the prayer from my heart as I traveled down the road.

 

How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? forever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me? 

How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? 

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; 

Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved. 

But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. 

I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully

 

 

Most of the rabbinical writers understand it as referring to the whole Hebrew people, and as expressing their sentiments and feelings in times of persecution in general. Kimchi understands it as referring to the present exile and trials of the Jewish people.    All I know is that I was feeling this in my heart and soul this morning and it returned several hours later and my spirit cried out O Lord, how long will you hide your face form us?  How long O God till we see peace in the land.   As I read the Psalm I felt the same love, compassion, Hashem's  spirit  I felt this morning.  For the third time my spirit broke and I wept as I read the Psalm.  I wanted to share this with you guys. Who else can I tell that might understand.   I guess it would have to be someone who has heard and heeded the call.   

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:06 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a HebraicPerspective

 

Shalom Hanoch,

just walked in and was confronted by the sad 

news regarding Naftali Ben Gila. To have the lives of 8 young yeshiva 

students snuffed out was outrageous enough, but to hear this sudden 

deterioration in his condition is very disturbing.

These young boys where the future rabbis of the 

Shomron (settlements). So these murderous Palestinian thugs made a very 

strong statement against the Holy One of Yisrael. Of course they would 

never do this to the political leaders of the secular government because 

these traitors are their allies in the dismantling of the settlements.

This callous murdering of the future spiritual 

leaders of Yisrael is a cold calculated statement by the enemy that 

there is no future not only for the settlers but for the entire Jewish 

nation. The Holy One , blessed be He has other ideas.

I am sending this musical link for Psalm 13  

sung in Hebrew for you to download and listen. The power of this prayer 

is in Hebrew. For those who cannot understand Hebrew , please still 

listen to the words as you meditate.

Please Hanoch keep us informed of Naftali's 

progress.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem JOE.

http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm&PHPSESSID=973d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707 

 

_______________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/4ffe8d50/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 21:32:43 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:02:43 +0930
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>	<BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl><482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>
	<001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com>
Message-ID: <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC>

Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are you doing this?  Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with the exception of fish  - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)
Shalom
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM
  Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac without realizing where it came from.  "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 

  Love & Blessings,

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

   

  Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our appetites for meat.

   I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of their G-d. 

  Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it.  And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah  as portended in that movie we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!!

   If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice,  in Bible times, would have been  the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first repented of the sin.

  Cornie



  Pat Robbins wrote: 

  Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return.  I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs.  For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach.  I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and give me life.

   

  I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child.  When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon.

   

  Love,

   

  Pat      

   

  From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 

  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM

  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

   

  Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.  

   

  And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding.  






------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________



 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 _______________________________________________   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/628e6396/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Wed May  7 21:39:18 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:39:18 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>	<BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl><482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>	<001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com>
	<8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <003501c8b0b4$b857c1e0$290745a0$@com>

Hey Jessica! Thanks for sharing this. I have also had "critter dreams" that
help me be a vegetarian, but I won't go into them here. Really weird. I am
actually trying to eat more "raw" as well.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:33 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but turned
away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a dream
wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are you
doing this?  Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified and have
been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem is an
awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with the
exception of fish  - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)

Shalom

Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Patty  <mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com> 

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM

Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the
animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any
slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today
are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac
without realizing where it came from.  "If slaughterhouses had glass walls,
everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 

Love & Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices?
My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me
if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and
should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I
believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are
better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we
are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our
appetites for meat.

 I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know
that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they
are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a
righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's
chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently
waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted
down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their
life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in
most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before
death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has
taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least
possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have
the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does
not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death
either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is
totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher
eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of
their G-d. 

Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a
human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays
concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it.  And
this specially cruel death of Yeshuah  as portended in that movie we are all
familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!!

 If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice,  in Bible times,
would have been  the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life
for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life
in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes,
did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the
New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this
straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the
truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand
it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first
repented of the sin.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote: 

Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid going
there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  We are the
repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was the detour off
His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return.  I think that if we
have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and
most foundational beliefs.  For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree
together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly
defined in Tenach.  I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to
believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life,
is something I cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it
is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and
give me life.

 

I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in
all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child.
When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand,
that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have drunk of her wine;
therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really
concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon.

 

Love,

 

Pat      

 

From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 

Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

 

Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues.
Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul
was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write
him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed
blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years
removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I
mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not
have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man
where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just
does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on
the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I
think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and
to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor
as ourselves.  

 

And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt
offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those
same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah
destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the
same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said,
and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans
killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who
took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be
honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's
Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding.  

 


  _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  new twists
on family favorites at AOL Food.

  _____  

_______________________________________________

 
 



  _____  



 
 
 
_______________________________________________
  
 
 



  _____  



 
 
 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008
7:46 AM
  

  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c766531e/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 21:44:16 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:14:16 +0930
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <003501c8b0b4$b857c1e0$290745a0$@com>
References: <c22.362cce92.35535263@aol.com>	<BLU125-DS6C1AF0FAA57CF4AA3A1BEBAD10@phx.gbl><482226DB.6090301@gninc.ca>	<001501c8b0ae$ae37a6e0$0aa6f4a0$@com><8316C62FC51145CFB10E2E86A25DC617@JessicaPC>
	<003501c8b0b4$b857c1e0$290745a0$@com>
Message-ID: <87AF65D04A2F4E9F9EFEC1DB58075DB8@JessicaPC>

Fresh is best Patty.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Patty 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:09 PM
  Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb


  Hey Jessica! Thanks for sharing this. I have also had "critter dreams" that help me be a vegetarian, but I won't go into them here. Really weird. I am actually trying to eat more "raw" as well.

   

  Blessings,

  Patty

   

  From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:33 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
  Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

   

  Hey Patty - I was a vegetarian in the 1970's and half of 1980's but turned away from it when I married my late husband. Early this year I had a dream wherein all the animals looked at me and asked the question - "Why are you doing this?  Don't eat us - we are your friends". I was mortified and have been a vegetarian again since then - mid January this year. HaShem is an awsome Father to us all - I don't want to eat animals anymore. (with the exception of fish  - there were no fish in my dream - and eggs)

  Shalom

  Jessica

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: Patty 

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:26 AM

    Subject: RE: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

     

    Hi Cornie, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I agree that the way the animal was sacrificed (or supposed to be) was more humane than any slaughterhouse. I have seen some footage and it is abominable. People today are so detached, they buy their shrunk-wrapped hamburger meat or Big Mac without realizing where it came from.  "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian." Paul and Linda McCartney, 1996 

    Love & Blessings,

    Patty

     

    From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer
    Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 6:02 PM
    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
    Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

     

    Is it O.K if I share my little understanding concerning animal sacrifices? My grammar is poor at its best. And I would for anyone to kindly remind me if I fail to grasp the sensitiveness of some that would get to read this and should be rightfully offensive to them. ,As Christians we were taught, and I believe it comes from the influence of the New Testament. As if we are better off now when we don't need to sacrifice animals and forget that we are constantly sacrificing animals for no other reason but to satiate our appetites for meat.

     I have a totally different view on it now than I used to. But we all know that animals are getting sacrificed in the most frightening way when they are being hunted for the shear fun of hunting. Where do you hear of a righteous Jew going hunting? Are there any stories in the Torah of HaShem's chosen people going hunting out in the wild? Well, yes, Jacob apparently waited for his son Esau to bring him a meal from an animal likely hunted down. We eat the meat from slaughtered animals that had to sacrifice their life to die a fearful death. At least to the best of my understanding in most slaughtering houses the carefulness of not torturing an animal before death is not taken near as serious as is the carefulness that HaShem has taught His chosen people when they sacrificed animals to have the least possible pain when they die. I have seen it in a video how they have to have the sharpest of knives to cut the veins in such a way that the animal does not know what has happened. I understand there is no struggle at death either when it is done right, when they bleed to death that way it is totally painless. And most of the sacrifices where used for food for Kosher eating. For the purpose of rejoicing in the providence and greatness of their G-d. 

    Jews that have a deep Torah knowledge would be the farthest from torturing a human being for a death sentence even, than what the New Testament, portrays concerning the death on the cross of Yeshuah, like the Romans did it.  And this specially cruel death of Yeshuah  as portended in that movie we are all familiar with, is blamed on the Jewish people!!!!!!!

     If anything, the most sobering thought of a sacrifice,  in Bible times, would have been  the reminder of a poor animal having to render it's life for their careless sinfulness, to remind them to live a more dedicated life in the future. The people of G-d, our ancestors if we are of the 12 tribes, did not understand a sacrifice to take the place of repentance as, again the New Testament has tried to teach us. Am I wrong? Please help me get this straight if I have failed to use the right words to describe it, what the truth really is according to Torah, concerning sacrifices. As I understand it, a sin offering would never have supposed to happen before a person first repented of the sin.

    Cornie



    Pat Robbins wrote: 

    Yes, Clyde, we are together in deep waters.  There is no way to avoid going there in this Dialogue for the search to find His Ancient Path.  We are the repentant sinners who have strayed from His Way.  Ours was the detour off His Path, so ours must be the diligent search to Return.  I think that if we have gotten it wrong, we must be willing to let go of even our dearest and most foundational beliefs.  For me, even if Paul, John, and Peter agree together on certain ideas, I will not follow them if I cannot see it clearly defined in Tenach.  I don't doubt that Yeshua was martyred.  However, to believe that his blood atones for my sin and bestows upon me eternal life, is something I cannot find in Torah.  I only see HaSHem telling me that it is He Himself Who, by His grace, through my repentance, forgives me, and give me life.

     

    I do see, however, the premise of a substitute human sacrifice for sin in all of the Mystery Religions, of which Babylon seems to be the poster child.  When Jeremiah 51:7-8 says, "Babylon was a golden cup in the L-RD's hand, that made all the earth drunk:  the nations have drunk of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen....," it really concerns me that we are the ones who have drunk the wine of Babylon.

     

    Love,

     

    Pat      

     

    From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 

    Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:43 PM

    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

    Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] The Lamb

     

    Hi Pat, we are surely getting into deep, deep, water in these dialogues. Thank you for you work in the many scriptures you have quoted. Now if Paul was the only one to attest to Yeshua shedding his blood, we could just write him off. However, that is not the case. Peter and John attests to the shed blood as well. Call me soft, but frankly from my view today 2000 years removed from late second temple Judaism, the sacrifice of a lamb, animal, I mean, turns me off. But I also have to realize in ancient culture we may not have always heard of the best of Yahovah. He may have bent down to reach man where he lived at the time, but to return to a Temple slaughterhouse just does not resonate with me. Now, I probably really stuck my neck out there on the chopping block. It was different times for different cultures, but I think what never changes, is the Holy and righteous commandments of God, and to love the LORD our God with all of our hearts and mind, and our neighbor as ourselves.  

     

    And again I suggest the Pass-over of Yeshua cannot be observed as a burnt offering, an atonement, and even if I may say, not even a sacrifice in those same terms. Moses stood in the gap for the children of Israel, lest Yahovah destroy them all. Perhaps we should look at the Pass-over of Yehsua in the same light as Moses standing in the gap.Yeshua had to die as it was said, and blood was shed, so perhaps Yahovah used the circumstance when the Romans killed him. And couldn't it be said of all the righteous Jewish martyrs  who took death rather than deny the holy commandments of God? In any case to be honest I'm being forced to think in ways I have not thought before. It's Ross' fault, so Ross now solve this issue for us. Just kidding.  

     


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________

  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   _______________________________________________    
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

   No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.9/1419 - Release Date: 07/05/2008 7:46 AM  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/f27c1c90/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Wed May  7 21:56:23 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <12EA4335BE14419691881AB82459F2A6@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <298834.47083.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/1d069808/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Wed May  7 22:33:58 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:33:58 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <836036.29143.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <836036.29143.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS34EB9A360E9340AD99DAFBAD00@phx.gbl>

Thank you, Tracy.  I have to disagree with you, but I appreciate your reply.  I think the last thing in the world HaSHem would leave a "mystery" is the need to shed a man's blood for the forgiveness of sins, and eternal life.   On that point I am quite confident He would be explicit.  Still, I am most thankful for our agreement upon the fact that G-d is not a man.  That's a biggie!

Sorry we can't agree on this one,

Pat  



From: Tracy Osborne 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:16 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


      Hello Pat,



      I appreciate your candor and honesty. I wouldn't expect anything else from you. If I cannot stand the heat, then I should get out of the kitchen. I know these are sensitive issues. I will continue to pray over these issues. Somehow, I think it is easy to get polarized over these things, so that one is saying one thing, but the other person is hearing something totally different. In these deeply spiritual and emotional issues, we must attempt to be delicate with one another. I sense that about you. Let us continue to pray for ourselves and one another, for Judah & Ephraim, to be visited with HaShem's inspiration. I do think that is important for us to have this discussion. So, please be honest and straightforward. 



      See my colored responses in your paragraphs





      --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


        From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
        Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 2:22 PM


        Hi Tracy,

        Though human blood has been spilled, and sadly, there have been countless martyrs [not all martyrs are of the same status - meaning, not all were chosen before the foundation of the world to be the Messiah], I don't see in the Torah their blood portrayed as covering our sins or bestowing eternal life [I, personally, don't see anything majical in regard to blood. It simply represents the life of the one who shed it. Abel's blood cried out from the earth to HaShem. What was it saying?], two things that only HaSHem gives by His grace as we repent of our sins and follow Him [No problem here. I absolutely agree. But, since the fall of Adam, the ideal passed away, and HaShem Himself instituted Korbanot. These Torah-based Korbanot testify to something.].  Like I said before, I am wholeheartedly convinced that He would have spelled out this most stringent of all requirements with directness and precision, as He did with His other instructions. [I think some things are left as mystery. The Oral Law is not spelled out in the Written Law. But, it is considered implicit within it. Through interpretation, inspiration, and historical development those things are 'flushed out'. 

        Also, I understand the "Blood Covenant" between the Children of Israel, and HaSHem as being Circumcision. [Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that it is The Mashiach's blood crying from the ground to HaShem. And what is it saying? That depends upon life, his mission and destiny.] 

        The other Scriptures that you quote concerning what I believe to be the Messianic figure, affect "salvation" in terms of setting the world in godly order [I like that!!!], I believe, as opposed to a heavenly [I believe Joseph is the biological father of Yeshua ben David. So, if that is what you mean by 'heavenly', it is a non-issue as to the topic. However, human Resurrection is an Orthodox tenet. Could it not be that The Messiah was to die and was The First to be Resurrected? He immediately, upon resurrection has become part of the Olam haBa, and is therefore heavenly.], saved-by-the-blood [again, there is nothing majical here in my thinking - What does blood crying out to HaShem mean? ], salvation of eternal life as found in pagan religions [resurrection, temples, sacrifices, priests, and etc., are all found in pagan religions. They have simply taken and perverted what HaShem, Himself established. But, just because similar things are found in Paganism does not mean that I outright reject them. I discern the difference between what HaShem established and intimated and that which has been taken over and perverted by paganism.].  I know this sounds harsh, and I hate to be so unyielding.  I'm just trying to explain what I see in the Tenach that I feel differs radically from what I learned in Christianity [It simply sounds like you, with all of your heart want the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth.].  If we are attributing what only HaSHem does for us (forgiving our sins and granting eternal life) to a man, even His chosen and anointed man, then we are in danger of remaining in our sins and missing out on that life we so covet [I Absolutely Agree.] [And if HaShem says to us, "Look upon this snake upon this pole and then you shall live - then, ..... if we refuse, what does that mean for us? And if, HaShem says take the Blood of a Lamb and splatter it upon your doorposts, and yet, we refuse to do it, what does that mean for us? Does that mean that we believe that 'the blood' of that lamb has majical powers? And to participate in it means that we believe that 'the blood' itself will save us? I don't think so. 

        I guess, it's a matter of obedience first, and then, (1) significance  and (2) symbolism second {(1) what is this ultimately saying? and (2) what are these mysterious things pointing to?}]. 

        The pendulum swings from one extreme to the other. May HaShem confirm us where we are right, and correct us where we're wrong. 

        Love, [Love and Prayers]

        Pat [Tracy]




        From: Tracy Osborne 
        Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 2:46 PM
        To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
        Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


              I'm wondering how these verses figure in to this discussion or does it not?



              Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.



              What else does the sword create, but blood?



              Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.



              To whom does HaShem speak?



              Is it not to the one HaShem had just described?



              Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

              Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

              Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.



              Was this not the Shepherd to whom the sword was to strike?



              Any ideas?







              --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


                From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
                Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 12:32 PM


                Hi Clyde,

                I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin.  Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah.  

                Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices.  Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism.  However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant.   We see this referred to in Judges 8:33.  This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles.  Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder.  Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world.  Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse.  In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice.  There are many more such examples.

                It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions.  I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us.  Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted.  The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions.  We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz.

                I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood.  I just can't see it.  In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us.  He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do.  He's just not ambiguous.  If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail.  It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath.  He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.   So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements.  I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference.

                And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal  of the curse of death.   Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place.  And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it."  But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...."  Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life:  "But if the wicked will turn  from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him:  in his righteousness that he has done he shall live."  Ezekiel 18:21-22

                I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully.  If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error.  

                Love to all of you,

                Pat





                From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
                Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM
                To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
                Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


                GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

                Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

                Thank you so much, Patty,

                Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over.  The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think.

                But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished?  2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two cents.

                CB 





----------------------------------------------------------------
                Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


----------------------------------------------------------------


                _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------


        _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/6f5467c9/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Wed May  7 22:48:23 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 20:48:23 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb 
In-Reply-To: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CA7CDF34B7F335-8AC-2D98@MBLK-M38.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <200805080348.m483mKfT012662@mail207c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/3042b35e/attachment.html 

From dhcole1 at cox.net  Wed May  7 23:39:47 2008
From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:39:47 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] emails.....(no need to reply!!)  ha
Message-ID: <044301c8b0c5$8b8fc480$6600a8c0@davesbook>

Hey Yall All.......

Now that I have read all the posts and have been in "the chair" for three hours now....I am going to sleep with much on my mind and heart.  (uplifted, in remembrance and intercession)

I want to voice 'joy' in the fact that we are all having good, honest and meaningful dialogue.  It is as if 'we' as a group are seeking the creators 'heart'...........wow

burning at both ends
dave

ps.......talked with John Carlson today......all is well.    (hey John)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/3b5f3895/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Wed May  7 23:52:44 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:22:44 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
In-Reply-To: <298834.47083.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <298834.47083.qm@web51105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4B3DAF2BE5E94873B8D771D17DFC6DC1@JessicaPC>

Thank you Tracy for exposing my 'blind spot'. 
Of course the shepherd is Yehuda (The Jews who put a fence around Torah and preserved it throughout the generations) and the sheep are Israel. Zech 13:1 speaks of a 'spring' for the house of David (not blood) that will cleanse them from sin and impurity. 
It goes on to say that Adonai-Tzva'ot Himself will cut off the very names of the idols from the Land and they won't even be remembered. (I am thinking that "Jesus on the cross" was made into an idol in the same way that the "serpent in the wilderness was lifted up" and was later worshipped as an idol in the Land) Also the false prophets and the spirit of uncleanness will be expelled from the Land. (false testimony and blood rituals??)
Indeed the sword has been wielded against Yehuda and continues to this day.  
The sheep were truly scattered, sifted even, throughout the nations, but the war and enmity between the two WILL end. (this is still to occur - even though the process has begun) 
I believe we are yet to see the fulfillment of Zech 9:9 because the war has not yet ended between Ephraim and Yerishalayim, and V.8 remains unfilfilled. Ie: Yerushalayim is not 'free'.
The 'victory' of Yerushalayim has not yet occurred.
It appears to me that V:11 is a continuation from V:9 and who is being spoken to is 'both the shepherd and the sheep'. "Rejoice with all your heart, daughter of Tziyon! Shout out loud, daughter of Yerushalayim!" Two daughters (the house of Yehuda and the house of Ephraim). As Adam and Hava were to "be as one flesh", so too Yehuda and Ephraim, therefore the shepherd and the sheep CAN be the same.
I have revised my first responses and added them below in green.
Shalom and thank you for sending me back to the scriptures.
Jessica

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tracy Osborne 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


        Thanks Jessica, 



        We are all a work in progress. And we all must love and seek the truth and have our 'blind spots' exposed. See my comments in blue below within your comments in red.



        Love & Blessings to you,



        Tracy

        --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:


          From: Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
          Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
          To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
          Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 8:37 PM


          Dear Tracy,
          May I be so bold as to share my 'take' on these verses? I will anyway - as always, I am ready to take correction in order to learn. I have included my thoughts highlighted in your text. I have found it very difficult to let go of the Xtian brain washing, but now that I have let go, I am better able to understand the true meaning in the writings of the Prophets of Israel. (I am a work in progress)
          Shalom
          Jessica
            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Tracy Osborne 
            To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
            Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb


                  I'm wondering how these verses figure in to this discussion or does it not?



                  Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,(Yehuda) (Israel - who in all the world has shed more blood than HaShem's Firstborn Son?)(that should have read: who in all the world has had more blood shed than HaShem's Firstborn Son) (The Shepherd and the Sheep cannot be the same)  and against the man that is my fellow,(Israel) (Yacov) (the Shepherd & the fellow are one and the same)  saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, (Israel)(Yehuda) and the sheep (the whole House of Israel) (Israel) shall be scattered (again, the shepherd and the sheep cannot be the same): (done) (scattering complete) and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.(the descendants of Yacov)



                  What else does the sword create, but blood? (the blood of the Jews throughout history) (Yes. But this is not the subject. The subject is the Shepherd, is it not?)(Yehuda/Jews =  the shepherd)



                  Zec 9:11 As for thee also (a personal message to the shepherd), (to the two daughters in V9 - the shepherd and the sheep) by the blood of thy covenant (circumcision) (it seems to me that this is his own blood crying from the ground as did Abel's)(if any blood cries out from the ground it is the blood of the Jews and indeed ALL followers of HaShem who have been persecuted and butchered for their faith) I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.(Yosef was placed in a pit with no water by his own brothers (the 'ten' brothers)(did not HaShem call Yosef the 'stick in the hand of Ephraim?) (I think you are correct on this point)



                  To whom does HaShem speak? (the whole house of Israel) (Again, the shepherd and the sheep cannot be the same.)(again - to the shepherd and to the sheep - v:9)



                  Is it not to the one (both - HaShem can speak to more than one at a time) HaShem had just described? (yes) (yes)(yes)



                  Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: (HaShem's bride to be - reunified Israel) behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass [I never considered that HaShem would come riding on a donkey],(why not - He travelled about the wilderness in a tent!) (I don't believe the king has yet come) (I do believe however, that a very righteous Rabbi - Yeshua of the House of Hillel - began the process that we see in progress today) and upon a colt the foal of an ass. (don't be fooled by certain scribes of the NT who persued the idea that Yeshua 'came to fulfil' certain prophecies) [Conversely, don't be fooled and swing to the other extreme side of the pendulum and think that there are not modern day scribes who do their own editing) (I hope to keep an open mind and search for the simple truth - I don't believe HaShem intended for His salvation to be so complicated)

                  Zec 9:10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, (end the war between Yehuda and Ephraim) [yes] and the battle bow shall be cut off: (the end of the wars and all animosity) [yes] and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: (Israel is the Light unto the Nations) [he, is the same one riding on the ass] and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. (the salvation of all the earth depends upon the salvation of the Whole House of Israel) [yes - and that comes thru the one riding on the ass] [Mashiach - the head & Israel the Body](I think this personage is yet to come - and we will ALL be surprised)

                  Zec 9:11 As for thee also [the one riding on the ass],(Yehuda and Israel - if Adam & Hava were to be "as one flesh" - why not Yehuda and Israel?) by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (see above)



                  Was this not the Shepherd to whom the sword was to strike? (yes - and no sword has ever struck any as it has struck His Chosen Nation - His Eternal Inheritance)



                  Any ideas???







                  --- On Wed, 5/7/08, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:


                    From: Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
                    Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Lamb
                    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
                    Date: Wednesday, May 7, 2008, 12:32 PM


                    Hi Clyde,

                    I'm still having difficulty understanding the need for human life to be taken to remove the curse of death through sin.  Again, I see this precept in paganism, but not in Torah.  

                    Patty mentioned that she is currently studying the Mithraic customs as compared to Christian practices.  Mithracism was just one of the many cults of paganism.  However, throughout the various forms of paganism, there is the concept of the Mediator, head of the covenant of grace, aka Baal-berith, which means Lord of the Covenant.   We see this referred to in Judges 8:33.  This "Lord of the Covenant" was worshipped as the victim-man who died for our sins, and is found in different regions of the world under different titles.  Even the Bacchic orgies were for the purification of souls, and a regular feature of them was the symbolic shedding of blood of an animal that was torn asunder.  Other examples are the Babylonian Zorastor and Belus, whose sufferings were depicted as voluntary for the benefit of the world.  Through these sufferings, the "great serpent's" head was crushed, implying removal of sin and the curse.  In India, Vishnu was the "Savior," worshipped as the "Victim-Man," who before the world was, offered himself as a sacrifice.  There are many more such examples.

                    It's no wonder that our ancestors, the Northern Kingdom of Israel, were confused and drawn away when intermingling with people from these pagan religions.  I believe the depictions of their suffering gods, whose shed blood covered sin, were as compelling to the Israelites as Christianity is to us.  Though HaSHem was all they needed, He was not all they wanted.  The suffering gods tore at their hearts and ignited their passions.  We see this behavior described in Ezekiel 8:14, where the women were weeping for Tammuz.

                    I'm sorry to be so negative concerning what is perceived by most as the necessary shedding of human blood.  I just can't see it.  In Torah, we are given precise details concerning the things HaSHem requires of us.  He tells us exactly how to do what He wants us to do.  He's just not ambiguous.  If He were going to require the shedding of a human's blood to get us to where we need to be, I believe with all my heart, that He would have told us about it in very great detail.  It would rank so far above how to clean a house of leprosy or what to eat, versus what not eat, or our required rest on the Sabbath.  He even tells us how to gather eggs in Deuteronomy 22:6, and forbids our cooking a kid in its mother's milk in Exodus 23:19, 34:26 and Deuteronomy 14:21.   So I know He would speak openly, plainly and in very specific detail about this most terrible of His requirements.  I truly can't see Him leaving us to surmise it by inference.

                    And again, at least in my understanding, His Word negates even the possibility of this interpretation concerning the removal  of the curse of death.   Isaiah 28:17-18 says, "....and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters shall overflow the hiding place.  And your covenant with death shall be annulled, and your agreement with Sheol shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it."  But it is said of Him in Nehemiah 9:6, "You alone are the L-RD.....and You give life to all...."  Ezekiel assures us that it is the act of repentance alone that atones for sin, thus ensuring life:  "But if the wicked will turn  from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  None of his transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him:  in his righteousness that he has done he shall live."  Ezekiel 18:21-22

                    I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really hate sounding so contradictory, but this is something about which I really think we must look so very carefully.  If G-d did not inaugurate this concept, we are in error.  

                    Love to all of you,

                    Pat





                    From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 9:19 AM
                    To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
                    Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb


                    GO PATTY!!!!!!  This is so outstanding.  You've said so much in just a couple of lines.  I'm in awe!  Redemption comes through Torah, and that is what Yeshua taught.  He's the Rabbi the Tribes have followed, and he taught them that to inherit eternal life, THEY MUST DO TORAH!!!!   MARVELOUS!!!!!!

                    Just as an aside here, I also wanted to mention that I, personally, really can't see him instituting the drink my blood and eat my body thing.  That strikes me as being so completely foreign.  The word, "cannibal," comes from "Cahna-Bal," which means the Priest of Baal.  This is because the priests of Baal ate the human sacrifices, drinking the blood of those offered to their despicable god.  In fact, this custom may shed light on Psalm 106:28, "They joined themselves to Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead."   I just can't see Yeshua coming anywhere near a custom reminiscent of such barbarism, the antithesis of Torah.  Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I just can't see him doing it.

                    Thank you so much, Patty,

                    Well, Patty, very good insight indeed. Thankfully we have the Bible of Yeshua and his disciples, and when we read in the so-called NT something that has paganism written all over it we can take the scalpel and cut it out of the text and context. If it is foreign to the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, I think we can attribute it to the pen of a Greek scribe. If it is not in the Torah it is not in the world. For some time now, I have wrestled with the idea of Yeshua being a pass-over - when we compare it with the Pass-over in Egypt. I have finally come to the conclusion that the Pass-over of Yeshua must be disconnected from the thought of butchering a Lamb, eating its flesh, and putting the blood on the doorposts. I take away from the Pass-over of Yeshua that he did give his life that everlasting death might be reversed to everlasting life. In that sense there is a disconnect from the original Pass-over.  The original Pass-over had nothing to do with taking away the curse of death through sin, while the Pass-over of Yeshua was for that very purpose I think.

                    But then to have the curse of death through sin taken away is only part way there to the ultimate purpose, which is to have the Ten Commandments of God written on our inward parts and on our hearts. And how is that accomplished?  2 Cor 3:3, by the Spirit of the living God, not on tables of stone, but on the fleshly tables of the heart. So if we would enter into eternal life, keep the commandments of God.  Any way that's my two cents.

                    CB 





------------------------------------------------------------
                    Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------


                    _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ 


--------------------------------------------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
_______________________________________________ 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/2b3f8457/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Wed May  7 23:55:26 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 23:55:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Marvin, Jessica, Joe,
	Shma-Israel Resources and Insights fromaHebraicPerspective
In-Reply-To: <FCCE29D24F0149FC901DCE67460F9861@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <006f01c8b0c7$bb30b0d0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Shalom all,

 

Again I am lost in all the emails and am having trouble following the
threads.and at this late hour, just happened to pick this one as the one to
read.not knowing what a tremendous blessing it would hold!!!

 

Reading thru your posts, Jessica and Marvin touched my heart so deeply.
Thank you for opening up your hearts and sharing so beautifully.and Joe,
your words were so gripping and moving as well.thank you so much for passing
on this beautiful link to Psalm 12!  It is so fitting.

 

Tonight in the synagogue, I was crying as tribute was paid to our soldiers
first, and our rabbi explained how everyone in the whole country of Israel,
stopped where they were today when the siren went off, traffic and all, and
everyone gets out of their cars and pays a 2 minute tribute to the fallen
soldiers!  Talk about honor and solidarity.

 

Then afterwards, he made the transition from Yom HaZikkaron and Yom
Ha'tma'ut and blew the long blast of the shofar!  Chilling and moving all
into one big emotion.It reminded me of your words about the shofar, Marvin.


 

This is my third time listening to Psalm 13 in the moving melody and in
beautiful and compelling Hebrew language.music is indeed the language of the
soul.It seems that one doesn't really need to understand the words for the
Hebrew and the music to send its message to the heart.it is astounding!  I
am reading the psalm now, and it means even more!  

 

Thanks so much, Joe for giving us this beautiful gift and powerful musical
gift!  I am definitely going to pass this one on!

 

Blessings and Shalom to all of you and to Eretz Yisrael and its people and
to all of its exiles scattered to the four corners of the earth!  And may
HaShem hasten it in His time!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

P.S.  Hanoch, please let us know how Naptali Ben Gila is doing as our hearts
and prayers reach across the miles to his bedside.may our whispered prayers
reach his ears that he may feel our strength and support!

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 8:02 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights
fromaHebraicPerspective

 

Shalom Marvin, you heartbreaker,

I also played the Psalm several times last night - it is indeed 'touching'
to listen to. 

Recently on April 25th, Australia remembered her fallen men and women of
both the great wars and also those of all wars we have had the misfortune to
lose loved ones in since then. I attended the little ceremony that was held
in my village, and Marvin - it brought me to tears. (It was a sombre weekend
as I also attended a funeral the next day) We owe so much to so many and we
pause for just a few minutes or hours in one day a year as a nation to pay
homage to their 'sacrifice'. And not only for those who gave/lost their
lives, but also those who returned with horrific injuries both physical,
mental & emotional. 

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. 

I have the Psalm playing again as I write and remember the fallen ones of
Israel. Very sobering.

And thank you Joe for forwarding the link. 

Brachot v'Shalom

Jessica

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: mhyde <mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net>  

To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:45 AM

Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from
aHebraicPerspective

 

Hello to Joe and everyone else!

 

Several new names since I last wrote...  good to have you aboard.  I have
been reading and enjoying the learning these last few weeks since the UIWU
conference.  Regardless of where you are standing in your current
understanding of things....  keep searching and reading and praying...
Hashem is calling and people are listening.  Some of you guys that have been
around 20 years or so, see things changing from how they were in the middle
80's or 90's.  The sounding of the Shofar that started as a very soft
whisper  is slowly growing stronger.

I'm reminded of the first time I heard the sound of the shofar.  If memory
serves me correct. The story was told of how the sound of the shofar that
was blown at Mt. Sinai,  waxed greater and greater......  whereas it should
have started off loud and then wax softer and softer as the one doing the
blowing ran out of air.  But in this case, in Moses' day at the mount, the
sound grew louder and louder. At this point Rabbi M. Katz, put the shofar to
his lips and chills ran down my spine and the hair on the back of my neck
stood up.  I wondered if I was hearing the shofar for the first time or if I
had heard it that day with Moses and the rest of the congregation. (I want
to believe I heard it with the whole congregation).

 

Once again the shofar is slowly and softly being blown......  I believe it
is starting to wax louder....  listen..... can you hear it....  listen with
your heart.....  can you hear it.....   As I write this, The music is
playing to Psalm 13 sung in Hebrew.....(thanks Joe)  a few words I
understand.  But my heart and sprit understands more. I have replayed this
song at least 10 times and felt God's love and compassion or as we say
"God's spirit".  

At this point I have not read the psalm. I only know the title "ad_anah"/
How long O Lord?

Life is full for all of us. I have been working on the house and doing some
Moving....  out of town for a few days...  moving some more stuff....  and
just living.  Also trying to stay on top of 100's ....  of dialogue e-mails.
I was moving a load of furniture this morning. The radio was on NPR and
there was a story about recognizing soldiers and thinking them for their
service to our country.  My mind was a million miles away I was lost in
thought and when I came to myself,  tears were running down my cheeks and I
was praying for soldiers. But not just American soldiers, I was praying for
all soldiers and praying in biblical language asking God, How long till we
beat out swords into plows...  how long O God till we / you stop war and we
study war no more and we live in peace with our brothers.  Hashem and I had
a good conversation, I did all the talking and he mostly listened....  but
my soul felt clean by the time I step out of the truck.

I came in the house to check e-mail and Joe sent this music.  I opened the
link and let it play while I read dialogue e-mails. My spirit is in touch
with the music although I did not understand the words. Then I opened
Hanoch's   Lekarev Report....                     


REMEMBERING THE FALLEN


"At  11 am this morning, sirens wailed throughout the nation of Israel as
the country paused for two minutes of silence to remember the 22,437 IDF
soldiers who have perished in defense of the Jewish state."

My spirit broke again as I read the article and as the tears poured forth
the same words from the prayer several hours earlier came forth also. When
this happens I have learned to stop what I'm doing and talk to the Father.
I prayed  and talked to God, Psalm 13 being sung in Hebrew in the
background,  I still don't have a clue as to what Psa. 13 says.   As my day
started this morning I did not know they would be "remembering the fallen"
in Israel to day.  But, Hashem must have put that into my spirit because it
is what my day has been centered around.  Maybe. It is an awaking to the
"code" that is in our DNA that working to call us back and to bring us
together. The article went on to say: 

"The prime minister also spoke of the significance of the tradition: "On
this unique day all barriers collapse. The sense of unity and togetherness
is more powerful than at any other event. Remembrance Day for Israel's
fallen is a disheartening day, but it is untainted with disagreement."

 

Psa 13, Ad_anah  stilling playing.....  20 times now.  I'm stopping to read
Psa 13....

 

After reading Psa.13........this was the prayer from my heart as I traveled
down the road.

 

How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? forever? how long wilt thou hide thy
face from me? 

How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily?
how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? 

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the
sleep of death; 

Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me
rejoice when I am moved. 

But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. 

I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully

 

 

Most of the rabbinical writers understand it as referring to the whole
Hebrew people, and as expressing their sentiments and feelings in times of
persecution in general. Kimchi understands it as referring to the present
exile and trials of the Jewish people.    All I know is that I was feeling
this in my heart and soul this morning and it returned several hours later
and my spirit cried out O Lord, how long will you hide your face form us?
How long O God till we see peace in the land.   As I read the Psalm I felt
the same love, compassion, Hashem's  spirit  I felt this morning.  For the
third time my spirit broke and I wept as I read the Psalm.  I wanted to
share this with you guys. Who else can I tell that might understand.   I
guess it would have to be someone who has heard and heeded the call.   

 

Shalom,

marvin

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]
<mailto:%5bmailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org%5d>  On Behalf Of JOE
INDOMENICO
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:06 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from a
HebraicPerspective

 

Shalom Hanoch,

just walked in and was confronted by the sad 

news regarding Naftali Ben Gila. To have the lives of 8 young yeshiva 

students snuffed out was outrageous enough, but to hear this sudden 

deterioration in his condition is very disturbing.

These young boys where the future rabbis of the 

Shomron (settlements). So these murderous Palestinian thugs made a very 

strong statement against the Holy One of Yisrael. Of course they would 

never do this to the political leaders of the secular government because 

these traitors are their allies in the dismantling of the settlements.

This callous murdering of the future spiritual 

leaders of Yisrael is a cold calculated statement by the enemy that 

there is no future not only for the settlers but for the entire Jewish 

nation. The Holy One , blessed be He has other ideas.

I am sending this musical link for Psalm 13  

sung in Hebrew for you to download and listen. The power of this prayer 

is in Hebrew. For those who cannot understand Hebrew , please still 

listen to the words as you meditate.

Please Hanoch keep us informed of Naftali's 

progress.

Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem JOE.

http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm
<http://shma-israel.org/music_main.php?AUDIO_FILE=0013_13_Psalm&PHPSESSID=97
3d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707> &PHPSESSID=973d4b3e98a35a2dbb59486e64f36707 

 

_______________________________________________


  _____  


_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/c6e30270/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu May  8 00:35:30 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 22:35:30 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02
	D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080507/a2a90617/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  8 01:03:53 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 01:03:53 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] emails.....(no need to reply!!)  ha
In-Reply-To: <044301c8b0c5$8b8fc480$6600a8c0@davesbook>
Message-ID: <00a501c8b0d1$4b4fbef0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

No need to reply. but I just had to, Dave, because I just love you and your
sense of honesty and humor!!!  I have not been "in the chair" as long as you
have, but have been saying "Laila tov" for the last two hours now in a few
responses.still haven't read all the emails.my inbox is showing 170!  

 

I have said more than once how much I appreciate the honest discussions we
are having, and right now am so tired I can' t think straight.but we have
gone off in quite a number of directions.like "lost sheep" huh?...and it
seems like some of the 'shepherds among us, namely, Ross and Steve, are
trying to get us back on que.

 

It is a challenge, but I think we are up for it!  What do you think?
Actually, I am not really "up" right now for anything.definitely half
asleep.

 

Burning at both ends too.

 

Love and Blessings to you and dear Sherry!

 

Laila tov, for real!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

P.S.  Thanks for letting us know that John is okay.miss him terribly, but
know he will jump back in when he feels that he can

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 11:40 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] emails.....(no need to reply!!) ha

 

Hey Yall All.......

 

Now that I have read all the posts and have been in "the chair" for three
hours now....I am going to sleep with much on my mind and heart.  (uplifted,
in remembrance and intercession)

 

I want to voice 'joy' in the fact that we are all having good, honest and
meaningful dialogue.  It is as if 'we' as a group are seeking the creators
'heart'...........wow

 

burning at both ends

dave

 

ps.......talked with John Carlson today......all is well.    (hey John)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/141cc0c9/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  8 01:07:26 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 01:07:26 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <00aa01c8b0d1$ca73cfa0$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Sounds good, Steve.  Hopefully some of us "lost tribers/sheep" can get back
on track and stick to the subject being discussed, but for me, it will need
to be tomorrow!

 

Love, prayers and blessings to you, Steve.  You are a good man!  We
appreciate you!

 

Betty/elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance

 

I do not know how we got on this subject from the Messiah's role, but am
changing the title of the thread to reflect the new subject being discussed,
a la what Ross was referring to in sticking to the subject.  


Thanks Glenn, 

Am reminded of Ezekiel 37:11, where the bones sinews, etc. come together and
they stand on their feet.  They metaphorically say: "....our hope is lost,
we are cut off from our parts."  Perhaps this is so, due not being
repentant, but still having Ephraim's pride? (Isa. 9:9, 28:1, 3, Hos. 13:4).


Could it be that the initial waking up of Ephraimites or the majority of
Ephraimites were taking pride in their new-found identity, but were not
humble/ repentant, (returning tot he Torah) and therefore the holy Spirit
did not make them "truly alive and i.e. "revive their spirits / souls?"
I am not referring to those  waking up now, in the last 15-20 years or so.
Could this be referring to those who came to know their Israelite identities
in the 20's and could not get anywhere with that revelation because they
clung to staying in "the church?"  There were also a number of /British
Israelite movements in the 19th century but they got nowhere, because they
stayed with the "church?"

Any ideas pro or con? 

Steve

At 12:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote:



An excellent point, Rick! As we have observed from our recent study of the
Psalms, the heart cry has always been directed to HaSHeM in humility and
contrition... as it also states in the book of the prophet:
 
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name
is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a
contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to
revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/820d541e/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  8 06:47:14 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 07:47:14 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Yom Ha'Atzmaut Sameach!  Israel's 60th!!!
Message-ID: <cb3.2f9a8789.35544242@aol.com>

 
Shalom to all & Chag Sameach!!!!
 
    I've pasted an article  below which summarizes some interesting points 
about You Ha'Atzmaut, that I  thought you'd find very thought provoking.  Savor 
the miracle of our  generation.....the State of Israel (warts and all..).  
It's up to YOU and  ME to make it would it could/should be......Chag Sameach!!
                        Hanoch  the Lil Lion of  Judah
 
What's So Special About Independence  Day?
 
 
 
3 Iyar 5768, 08 May 08 02:19
by Hillel  Fendel

 
(IsraelNN.com) Israel's Independence Day begins Wednesday night and continues 
 on Thursday.  With the holiness of the holiday under attack from right and  
left - the hareidi-religious public, the secular public, and even parts of the 
 Disengagement-stricken religious-Zionist public - celebrants of the day wish 
to  emphasize its basic principles. 
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed - the rabbi of the Shomron town of Har Brachah, the  
Dean of the hesder yeshiva there and a prolific author on matters of Jewish Law  
who is quickly gaining a reputation as a leading authority in the  
religious-Zionist public - has published a short work explaining the historic  and 
religious significance of the day. 
The work, published as a supplement to the B'Sheva weekly, covers the  
following points: 
? The establishment of the State of Israel  facilitates, for both individuals 
and the nation as a whole, the fulfillment of  the Torah commandment to 
settle the Land of Israel.
? The establishment  of the State removed the shame of Exile and the 
accompanying desecration of  G-d's Name, as in Ezekiel 36, verses 4, 20, and others.
? The  establishment of the State, in the wake of centuries of pogroms that 
culminated  with the Holocaust, saved many Jewish lives, and helped buttress 
the Jewish  People's spiritual condition.
? It is a positive commandment to thank  G-d for His miracles and favors, and 
to enact holidays to this end. 
Excerpts from the work: 
The Commandment to Settle the Land
On the 5th day of Iyar  in 5708 [May 14,1948], when the establishment of the 
State of Israel was  declared, the Nation of Israel merited to fulfill the 
Torah's command to settle  the Land of Israel.  True, individual Jews who lived 
in the Land prior to  this also fulfilled a commandment, but the commandment 
mainly applies to the  entire nation, which is bidden to bring the Land under 
Jewish sovereignty.   [See Numbers 33,53 and Deut. 11,31, and Nachmanides' 
commentary] 
Jewish Law, in fact, rules that the obligation to mourn destroyed cities in  
the Land of Israel is dependent on Jewish sovereignty: Ruins of cities that 
are  ruled by non-Jews must be mourned, even if they are populated mostly by 
Jews;  and if they are ruled by Jews, the ruins need not be mourned, even if they 
are  populated mostly by non-Jews.   
The Beginning of Redemption, and Sanctification of G-d's  Name
The establishment of the State of Israel removed the disgrace  of Exile.  For 
generation after generation, we wandered in the Diaspora, we  suffered 
terrible humiliation and pogroms, we were a subject of mockery among  the nations, 
and we were subject to mass slaughter.  Observers saw us and  said there was no 
hope for us.  This was a situation of terrible  'desecration of G-d's Name' - 
for "you [Israel] are called by G-d's Name" [Deut.  28]. 
G-d's word, as prophesied in so many places in the Bible, was that He would  
return us to the Land.  But with the passing of so many centuries in which  
this was not fulfilled, the desecration of G-d's Name increased, and Israel's  
enemies concluded that Israel would never return.  And then the miracle  
happened [in 1948], and G-d's word was fulfilled. This was a great  sanctification 
of G-d's Name, and it became even stronger during the Six Day War  when we 
liberated Jerusalem and the holy cities in Judea and Samaria. 
This process of the Ingathering of the Exiles and the flowering of the desert 
 is the beginning of the promised Redemption.  As the Talmud states, "There  
is no clearer sign of the Redemption than this, as is written in the Book of  
Ezekiel (36,8), 'You mountains of Israel will give forth branches and will 
bear  fruit for My people Israel who are on their way.'" 
Yes, there is still much to improve and put right; unfortunately, we have not 
 all merited to do teshuvah [return, repentance] and move to the Land of  
Israel. But our Sages have taught that there are two types of Redemption: full  
repentance leading to miraculous Redemption, and the type that takes place  
through natural processes, accompanied by great difficulties and  hardships.  
These will cause the Jewish People to return home - and thus we  will progress, 
step by step, until the Complete Redemption. 
Jewish Salvation
On Independence Day 1948, the Jewish  Nation was saved. It went from a state 
of subservience to the nations, to one of  political freedom.  We also went 
from a situation of potential death, in  that we were unable to defend ourselves 
from our mortal enemies, to one of life,  because since that time we have 
fought our enemies and, with G-d's help, emerged  victorious. 
Some 21,000 Jews have been killed in the 60 years since the State was  
established - but just a few years before that, during the Holocaust, six  million 
holy Jews were murdered over the course of just five years - a rate of  nearly 
3,500 times more. 
This day was a salvation even for Jews living in the Diaspora, in that they  
now had a country that would always be able to take them in, and even works on 
 their behalf in the international arena. Even the Communist regimes were 
forced  to allow Jews to leave - something that would have been inconceivable 
before the  State of Israel was established. 
Spiritual Relief
Spiritually, as well, the Jewish People  were saved by the State of Israel. 
For various reasons, a great spiritual crisis  overtook the Jewish People over 
the past 200 years, and as countries modernized,  the Jews became more 
assimilated.  In the US, for instance, most young Jews  marry non-Jews, and those who 
marry Jews have relatively few children.  The  Jewish communities abroad are 
thus getting smaller and smaller.   Only in the State of Israel is the Jewish 
population growing, and  assimilation is relatively sparse.   
Furthermore, the percentage of Jews in Israel who are connected to Torah and  
an observant lifestyle is larger than in any other Jewish concentration in 
the  world. This spiritual salvation was the result of the establishment of the 
State  of Israel, which enabled the Ingathering of the Exiles and obviated the 
lures of  world-wide assimilation. 
Thus, Israel Independence Day is thus  decorated with three layers of 
holiness: the holiness of the commandment of  settling the land; the holiness of the 
Sanctification of  G-d's Name and  the beginning of the Redemption; and the 
holiness of the physical and spiritual  salvation of the Jewish People.


_www.IsraelNationalNews.com_ (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/) 
? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com
Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report -  sub.israelnn.com






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/d7bade8a/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Thu May  8 06:49:38 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 07:49:38 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lekarev Report for today
Message-ID: <c1b.2f4d9b01.355442d2@aol.com>

        
The Lekarev  Report
3  Iyar 5768
May 8,  2008
Shalom

And the redeemed of Hashem shall return, and come with  singing unto Zion, 
and everlasting joy shall be upon their  heads; they shall obtain gladness and 
joy, and sorrow and  sighing shall flee away.

Isaiah  35:10
Happy Birthday, Israel!

Israel's 60th anniversary commenced Wednesday evening with  a formal 
torch-lighting ceremony on Mount Herzl in Jerusalem.  The celebrations were held under 
tight security, due to  warnings of  terror organizations' plans to carry out 
 attacks. 
Throughout the country, fireworks lit the night skies as  families and 
communities celebrated 60 years of the restored  Jewish homeland. 
At 9:30 this morning, President Shimon Peres hosted a  reception at his 
residence for past and present IDF commanders  and in his speech, spoke of Israel 
as the 'modern miracle'; in  fact, he called Israel one of the 'greatest 
miracles humanity  has experienced.'Peres later presented 120 outstanding soldiers  
with merit certificates, and representatives of the diplomatic  corps arrived 
to congratulate the president in honor of  Independence Day.

Speaking  during the ceremony honoring the outstanding soldiers, Peres  said 
that "according to cold logic, Israel could not have been  established and 
could not have defended itself. How did this  happen? What is the real secret? 
You are part of this secret.  It's called 'the outstanding ones.' Israel was 
victorious  because its sons excelled, above and beyond what is accepted.  
Excellence is proof that we can overcome a sea of hatred and  continue to hope."

The  traditional Bible Quiz for Jewish youth began at the Jerusalem  Theater 
at 11 am and continues at this hour.  Sixteen  youths are taking part in the 
quiz, four of them from Israel  and the rest from across the  world.
>From 12:30 to 2 pm, the Israel Air Force will hold a  special air show over 
the following cities: Beersheba,  Yeruham, Dimona, Arad, Beit Shemesh, 
Jerusalem, Beit Shean,  Afula, Nazareth, Tiberias, Katzrin, Safed, Carmiel, Nahariya,  
Haifa, Netanya, Tel Aviv, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Sderot, Netivot  and Ofakim.  
A naval review by the Israel Sea Corps which  will begin in Haifa at 9 am, 
pass through Tel Aviv at 1 pm,  and end in Ashkelon at around 2  pm. 
Bands representing the US  Military, the British, French, Dutch and Russian 
armed forces,  as well as the Romanian, Brazilian, Polish and German armies  
will participate in the Independence Day  parade.   
The 2008 Israel Prizes will be handed out in the Jerusalem  Theater at 7:30 
Meanwhile, thousands of Israelis will flock to the national  parks or gather 
with family and friends for backyard  barbecues.






**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/909013ff/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 08:44:20 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:44:20 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <050820081344.26191.482303B400080EF20000664F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Hi, Steve,

Thank you for responding. Actually, I think Rick is right on Messiah's role with his observation, or rather, by asking is Messiah's assumed role of mediator correct, when all through the TeNaKH 'righteous ones' have always prayed directly to HaSHeM? Is there now suddenly a need for such a mediator? If so, did HaSHeM change the rules, or did man do so by introducing the mystery religions already mentioned? 

Most of us are fairly familiar with the christian doctrines surrounding the idea of a required mediator - the damning presence of original sin, our inability to keep Torah, G-d giving Torah as the means to convince us of this terrible plight, and the consequent need for a 'new' way to G-d provided by human sacrifice. I for one am attempting to identify how much of this amounts to "lies inherited from our fathers".

By the Isaiah references I attempted to ask why is the Messiah's role somehow inextricably tied to sin removal and forgiveness? HaSHeM attests that He alone reserves the role of Saviour, Redeemer, and Deliverer. He said he shares this with no other. Any role that Messiah has/had must be grounded in the teachings of the TeNaKH, as has also been elaborated upon in this thread of e-mails.

I realize I am but a babe in the Ways of HaSHeM. Therefore, any ideas I may have about all these roles and missions are formative at best, and (sadly) tainted by false doctrines. I must therefore go back to the 'Bible Yeshua read' and find my answers. Surely all my answers are contained therein.

I agree with what has been stated already - HaSHeM, while choosing in His providence to keep some things secret and for Himself, would not so lovingly reveal His character and expectations concerning His Way for man through the TeNaKH, only to hide the most important ingredient from His people.

While it is true that we are called to diligently seek for Him and His truth with all our hearts, I find it difficult to fathom that He would purposely make it a complicated thing to know Him. I choose to think He has made a Way in the wilderness, one that even babes such as myself can find. One that does not require complicated doctrinal gyrations or convoluted textual contortions. At least that is how I see it! :-)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/3ce17d6e/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  8 08:45:10 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:45:10 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] The Lamb
Message-ID: <c29.35a3ad29.35545de6@aol.com>

 
If I may I want to go back to the original post of Ross. I think we have  
strayed from the points made and the questions asked. 
 
Clyde and all,

I guess a point of dialogue that is emerging on this  list is one that deals 
with the atonement brought about through the death of  Yeshua.  I would ask a 
couple of questions that need to be answered. This  note will be part one as I 
want us to try and stay on topic better.  We  tend to comment on the notes of 
others until one can barely associate the  current content of a note with the 
original thought.

1. You mention in  your note that Yeshua was the Passover (or that his death 
was prefigured in the  death of the Passover lamb).  There is no doubt that 
this idea is present  in the Christian writings.  Namely 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.  
The question  is...what exactly does this mean?  I think that largely due to 
the words  attributed to John the Baptist when Yeshua walks up to the baptism 
waters -  "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world", people have 
made a leap  in their thinking.

Points: - We know that Yeshua was killed around the  time of Pesach.  My 
personal view is that he does in fact die on the day  that the lamb was killed. 
The point that most people miss is that the Passover  lamb's death was not 
associated with "forgiveness of sins" or for that matter  with atonement or "taking 
away the sins" of anyone.  The lamb's death was  associated with a festival 
that commemorates the saving of God's firstborn son.  It was roasted over fire 
and eaten with bitter herbs.

So where do we find  an association in the Christian writings between the 
death of Yeshua and the  redemption of a firstborn? Could it be that somehow one 
might come away thinking  that this death of Yeshua would in some way become 
associated with the firstborn  son (1 Chronicles 5:2 - Ephraim)?  Just a 
thought.

Another point is  on the necessity of sacrifice and the shedding of blood in 
general, but that can  wait for another post properly labeled.  So again, if I 
have not been clear  - What does the Passover lamb have to do with 
forgiveness of sins?  I am  having trouble finding a connection.  Anyone know of 
something that I am  missing?

Comments???

Shalom, Ross
 
Ross asked, what does the Passover Lamb have to do with forgiveness of sin?  
I have trouble finding a connection.  
 
CB comment  I have never been asked this question, never thought about  it 
until Ross asked it. Well, now I have thought about it, research it, and have  
some thoughts. The only connection between the original  Passover in Egypt  and 
the Passover of Yeshua I can find, is Yeshua died on the day of Passover.  
Outside of that I find no connection whatsoever. It is said he is our Passover,  
so what did he cause to Pass-over? My thought is Yeshua caused the death 
through  sin all mankind have earned, to be held at bay - while through the Spirit 
of the  living God and by following the example of Yeshua we are made Just, 
that is  righteous. 
 
If I am seeing correctly the Passover in Egypt in prefiguring the  Passover 
of Yehsua has no connection, therefore must be observed from a  completely 
different perspective. And so, what is the perspective we might  discern? It was 
said that Yeshua had to die for Judah, but not for Judah only,  but that God 
might gather together all of his children as ONE.  This raises the question as 
to how the death of Yeshua opens up the effort  for  God to bring together both 
houses? Since death is eternal without  a resurrection - then is eternal 
death what is being passed over while God who  is just and the justifier, is 
making us JUST by witting his Holy Commandments in  the fleshly tables of our 
heart, while we are to put away sin piece by  piece?
 
Since I'm thinking as I write, I stand to be corrected on any point, but  can 
we please stay on point and not wonder off into other issues until we all  
come to one mind if that is possible? If Yeshua is fulfilling the tole by  
passing over eternal death until we are made JUST, that is righteous, then is  this 
not necessary as the first step in the process of being made righteous.  That 
is being made in character holy because God is Holy, or to state it another  
way become like our Father in heaven?  Let me set forth what the process  
might be point by point./
 
(1) Yeshua had to die so that eternal death might be passed over. (2) His  
death does not take away sin, but does reconcile the sinner to God. (3) God then 
 through his Spirit writes his Torah on our inward parts and on our heart. 
(4)  Our part is to bring our flesh into subjection to the holy Torah of God. 
(5) We  participate with the risen messiah and by walking as he walked little by 
little  we become JUST, that is righteous as God is righteous. 
 
Now, where am I am going wrong here?  And so again, please as Ross  suggested 
lets stay to the issue at hand.
 
CB 




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/38ade07b/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu May  8 09:06:26 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:06:26 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com><050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <004b01c8b114$b6101a30$0200a8c0@marvin>

Steve,

 

If you look at the different religious movements that took off in this
country beginning around 1900, you can see where people started coming out
of  their established religious systems.  Painting with a broad brush,  we
can see were a large part of the evangelical and fundamental churches have
roots that go back less then 150 years.  Although they would disagree, I
believe the research would support this.  Once upon a time their was the
Catholic church, then Luther splintered off, then a few more and by 1800 you
only had  a few main groups.  Then around 1900 their was an explosion of
groups.  Each one moved part way.   But regardless of the new found
knowledge they became settled where they were and institutionalized  and
therefore started a new religion or faith.   Abraham had to destroy the
idols, then he had to pack up and move.   As we start this journey we have
to destroy the idols, (scared cows must be sacrificed on the altar of truth)
then we have to move( leave the church and all of its tenets) and return to
the host(synagogue to receive the Torah [ teaching].    As we all know this
is not easily done.

 

Christianity says, God forsook the Jews, and now the world must go though
the church(Christ)- as RN said a misunderstood concept) to get in, but the
prophets tell us we will return to the Jews / Israel because our fathers
have inherited lies.   Inherited lies...  you inherit something you don't
work for..   The reason preachers stand in the pulpit on Sunday and tell
their tales,  because they did not do the hard work to study and discover
the truth.   I believe due to the explosion of the information age we can
all go to the synagogue and learn, where as 50 years ago,  think what would
happen if the local synagogue had more gentile's then Jews in the pews.  So
I believe we are on the road and as the sound of the shofar becomes louder
their will be more who wake up.  But, to your point --- "Could it be that
the initial waking up of Ephraimites or the majority of Ephraimites were
taking pride in their new-found identity, but were not humble/ repentant,
(returning tot he Torah) and therefore the holy Spirit did not make them
"truly alive and i.e. "revive their spirits / souls?"  

If we repent and return to the torah who will our teachers be?   Think what
would happen if 100 of the biggest name preachers would humble themselves to
sit at the feet of the Rabbis, and say , we know that God is with you, teach
us, for our fathers have inherited lies.  I believe we could find 10 Rabbis
to teach them before Shabbat.  My experience...  the church is to busy
trying to convert to listen and see if they can learn anything.  The false
religious system is a serpent that will fight till the death to keep her
enslaved children.  The battle to escape is fought with much blood sweat and
tears, many hours with your face in the book(tanach). Many hours hid away in
your prayer closet.

 

shalom



 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance

 

I do not know how we got on this subject from the Messiah's role, but am
changing the title of the thread to reflect the new subject being discussed,
a la what Ross was referring to in sticking to the subject.  


Thanks Glenn, 

Am reminded of Ezekiel 37:11, where the bones sinews, etc. come together and
they stand on their feet.  They metaphorically say: "....our hope is lost,
we are cut off from our parts."  Perhaps this is so, due not being
repentant, but still having Ephraim's pride? (Isa. 9:9, 28:1, 3, Hos. 13:4).


Could it be that the initial waking up of Ephraimites or the majority of
Ephraimites were taking pride in their new-found identity, but were not
humble/ repentant, (returning tot he Torah) and therefore the holy Spirit
did not make them "truly alive and i.e. "revive their spirits / souls?"
I am not referring to those  waking up now, in the last 15-20 years or so.
Could this be referring to those who came to know their Israelite identities
in the 20's and could not get anywhere with that revelation because they
clung to staying in "the church?"  There were also a number of /British
Israelite movements in the 19th century but they got nowhere, because they
stayed with the "church?"

Any ideas pro or con? 

Steve

At 12:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote:



An excellent point, Rick! As we have observed from our recent study of the
Psalms, the heart cry has always been directed to HaSHeM in humility and
contrition... as it also states in the book of the prophet:
 
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name
is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a
contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to
revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/6db03385/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 09:13:44 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:13:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Change the Subject?
In-Reply-To: <200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>

Shalom Steve and All,

 

Apparently I missed the "call to change the subject" here, I did not get
that from Ross' posts. If I am wrong, please let me know. I can't think of
any topic more important for a lost sheep coming out of Christianity than
the role of Messiah and his relationship with YHWH.

 

Respectfully,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance

 

I do not know how we got on this subject from the Messiah's role, but am
changing the title of the thread to reflect the new subject being discussed,
a la what Ross was referring to in sticking to the subject.  


Thanks Glenn, 

Am reminded of Ezekiel 37:11, where the bones sinews, etc. come together and
they stand on their feet.  They metaphorically say: "....our hope is lost,
we are cut off from our parts."  Perhaps this is so, due not being
repentant, but still having Ephraim's pride? (Isa. 9:9, 28:1, 3, Hos. 13:4).


Could it be that the initial waking up of Ephraimites or the majority of
Ephraimites were taking pride in their new-found identity, but were not
humble/ repentant, (returning tot he Torah) and therefore the holy Spirit
did not make them "truly alive and i.e. "revive their spirits / souls?"
I am not referring to those  waking up now, in the last 15-20 years or so.
Could this be referring to those who came to know their Israelite identities
in the 20's and could not get anywhere with that revelation because they
clung to staying in "the church?"  There were also a number of /British
Israelite movements in the 19th century but they got nowhere, because they
stayed with the "church?"

Any ideas pro or con? 

Steve

At 12:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote:



An excellent point, Rick! As we have observed from our recent study of the
Psalms, the heart cry has always been directed to HaSHeM in humility and
contrition... as it also states in the book of the prophet:
 
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name
is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a
contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to
revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/6d6077d5/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Thu May  8 09:56:33 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:56:33 -0300
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...
In-Reply-To: <00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
	<00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
Message-ID: <9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>

Shalom All,

This little excerpt from the Matrix movie comes to mind as I read the back and forth, and have new avenues of thought to study and research.  Who knew the rabbit trail was quite this long, back in the days when we swallowed the 'red pill' .....



Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix?

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

(Neo nods his head.)

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back
.
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)

Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/43c3861b/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 10:02:02 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:02:02 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...
In-Reply-To: <9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>	<00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
	<9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <00e001c8b11c$7ab4a980$701dfc80$@com>

Hey Steve, the Matrix is one of my most favorite movies! I see so many
parallels. 

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:57 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...

 

Shalom All,

 

This little excerpt from the Matrix movie comes to mind as I read the back
and forth, and have new avenues of thought to study and research.  Who knew
the rabbit trail was quite this long, back in the days when we swallowed the
'red pill' .....

 

 

 

Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling
down the rabbit hole?


Neo: You could say that.


Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts
what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far
from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?


Neo: No.


Morpheus: Why not?


Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.


Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here.
You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain.
But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong
with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter
in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to
me. Do you know what I'm talking about?


Neo: The Matrix?


Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?


(Neo nods his head.)


Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this
very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on
your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church
or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your
eyes to blind you from the truth.


Neo: What truth?


Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into
bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A
prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told
what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last
chance. After this, there is no turning back

.
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)


Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed
and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other
hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how
deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red
pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/451cb9ba/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Thu May  8 10:14:07 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:14:07 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] taking a break
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805080814n34030761kb29e98bed6533f06@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm going to take a break from the list.  I'm having all email filtered into
a folder.  While I enjoy all the postings, I feel that I must spend my free
time in prayer and study.  You are all free to email me privately at
kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com.

Kim
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/1a6014f7/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu May  8 10:33:59 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 08:33:59 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Change the Subject?
In-Reply-To: <00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
	<00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
Message-ID: <200805081534.m48FXxoj031968@mail207c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/c2c535fa/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 10:47:32 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 11:47:32 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Change the Subject?
In-Reply-To: <200805081534.m48FXxoj031968@mail207c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>	<00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
	<200805081534.m48FXxoj031968@mail207c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <010401c8b122$d8d82ef0$8a888cd0$@com>

Okay, thanks Steve. How are you doing?

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:34 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Change the Subject?

 

Patty, 

I cannot find the email in which Ross called for sticking to the subject.  I
must have erased it. He did NOT call for getting off the subject of Messiah.
He only referred to getting back to the original subject that the threads
started on.  After a while the subject matter often morphs into something
different than the thread name indicates. 

Steve



At 07:13 AM 5/8/2008, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
         boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C2_01C8B0F4.343FBBC0"
Content-Language: en-us

Shalom Steve and All,
 
Apparently I missed the "call to change the subject" here, I did not get
that from Ross' posts. If I am wrong, please let me know. I can't think of
any topic more important for a lost sheep coming out of Christianity than
the role of Messiah and his relationship with YHWH.
 
Respectfully,
Patty
 
From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [
mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
<mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org> ] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 1:36 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
 
I do not know how we got on this subject from the Messiah's role, but am
changing the title of the thread to reflect the new subject being discussed,
a la what Ross was referring to in sticking to the subject.  


Thanks Glenn, 

Am reminded of Ezekiel 37:11, where the bones sinews, etc. come together and
they stand on their feet.  They metaphorically say: "....our hope is lost,
we are cut off from our parts."  Perhaps this is so, due not being
repentant, but still having Ephraim's pride? (Isa. 9:9, 28:1, 3, Hos. 13:4).


Could it be that the initial waking up of Ephraimites or the majority of
Ephraimites were taking pride in their new-found identity, but were not
humble/ repentant, (returning tot he Torah) and therefore the holy Spirit
did not make them "truly alive and i.e. "revive their spirits / souls?"
I am not referring to those  waking up now, in the last 15-20 years or so.
Could this be referring to those who came to know their Israelite identities
in the 20's and could not get anywhere with that revelation because they
clung to staying in "the church?"  There were also a number of /British
Israelite movements in the 19th century but they got nowhere, because they
stayed with the "church?"

Any ideas pro or con? 

Steve

At 12:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote:

An excellent point, Rick! As we have observed from our recent study of the
Psalms, the heart cry has always been directed to HaSHeM in humility and
contrition... as it also states in the book of the prophet:
 
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name
is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a
contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to
revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15
_______________________________________________

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/9a17caf4/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Thu May  8 10:49:26 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 08:49:26 -0700
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <050820081344.26191.482303B400080EF20000664F22218683269B0A0
	2D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
	<050820081344.26191.482303B400080EF20000664F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <200805081549.m48FnM73021297@mail206c25.carrierzone.com>

Hi, Glenn,
Am lost a bit in this reply.  I think I was not disputing what Rick 
wrote, or referred to Messiah's role as mediator... I was referring 
to Ephraim's pride and repentance... and the idea of not really being 
truly alive, unless we are "revived' in the spiritual sense, as it 
seems to be saying in Ez. 37:11.

Steve



At 06:44 AM 5/8/2008, you wrote:
>Hi, Steve,
>
>Thank you for responding. Actually, I think Rick is right on 
>Messiah's role with his observation, or rather, by asking is 
>Messiah's assumed role of mediator correct, when all through the 
>TeNaKH 'righteous ones' have always prayed directly to HaSHeM? Is 
>there now suddenly a need for such a mediator? If so, did HaSHeM 
>change the rules, or did man do so by introducing the mystery 
>religions already mentioned?
>
>Most of us are fairly familiar with the christian doctrines 
>surrounding the idea of a required mediator - the damning presence 
>of original sin, our inability to keep Torah, G-d giving Torah as 
>the means to convince us of this terrible plight, and the consequent 
>need for a 'new' way to G-d provided by human sacrifice. I for one 
>am attempting to identify how much of this amounts to "lies 
>inherited from our fathers".
>
>By the Isaiah references I attempted to ask why is the Messiah's 
>role somehow inextricably tied to sin removal and forgiveness? 
>HaSHeM attests that He alone reserves the role of Saviour, Redeemer, 
>and Deliverer. He said he shares this with no other. Any role that 
>Messiah has/had must be grounded in the teachings of the TeNaKH, as 
>has also been elaborated upon in this thread of e-mails.
>
>I realize I am but a babe in the Ways of HaSHeM. Therefore, any 
>ideas I may have about all these roles and missions are formative at 
>best, and (sadly) tainted by false doctrines. I must therefore go 
>back to the 'Bible Yeshua read' and find my answers. Surely all my 
>answers are contained therein.
>
>I agree with what has been stated already - HaSHeM, while choosing 
>in His providence to keep some things secret and for Himself, would 
>not so lovingly reveal His character and expectations concerning His 
>Way for man through the TeNaKH, only to hide the most important 
>ingredient from His people.
>
>While it is true that we are called to diligently seek for Him and 
>His truth with all our hearts, I find it difficult to fathom that He 
>would purposely make it a complicated thing to know Him. I choose to 
>think He has made a Way in the wilderness, one that even babes such 
>as myself can find. One that does not require complicated doctrinal 
>gyrations or convoluted textual contortions. At least that is how I see it! :-)
>
>_______________________________________________



From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 11:25:34 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:25:34 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Ephraim's pride & repentance
In-Reply-To: <200805081549.m48FnM73021297@mail206c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>
	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
	<050820081344.26191.482303B400080EF20000664F22218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<200805081549.m48FnM73021297@mail206c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <050820081625.14922.4823297E000D464E00003A4A22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Guten morgen, Steve meine Freund!

What I meant was that I had not considered what Rick and I were discussing as changing the subject from Messiah. I realize there are lots of ways to approach this highly controversial topic, and based on our mutual studies, we were merely discussing if mediator was in fact a Messianic role at all. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused for you or the loop in general.

Glenn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/b042bd00/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  8 13:41:00 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:41:00 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...
In-Reply-To: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com><00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
	<9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com><00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
	<9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS610032D305776891F9E37BAD00@phx.gbl>

Shalom, Stephen and Sharon.  I never saw Matrix, but have heard how great it is.  I can see now that I would like it very much - quite profound "dialogue"!!!!


From: Stephen & Sharon 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:56 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...


Shalom All,

This little excerpt from the Matrix movie comes to mind as I read the back and forth, and have new avenues of thought to study and research.  Who knew the rabbit trail was quite this long, back in the days when we swallowed the 'red pill' .....



Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

Neo: You could say that.

Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

Neo: No.

Morpheus: Why not?

Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Neo: The Matrix?

Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

(Neo nods his head.)

Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

Neo: What truth?

Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back
.
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)

Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/85e260b0/attachment.html 

From ram1500_man at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 14:03:20 2008
From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (Paul-Eugene Miller)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...
In-Reply-To: <9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <650632.38438.qm@web37503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Stephen & Sharon,
   
  There are many parallels in this movie...in the spiritual as well as in the natural. I look around every day and see people that have no clue, about what is going on politically, with the Bilderberg group, and spiritually. Truly, Jacob Schiff fulfilled his goals.
  Paul

Stephen & Sharon <shdennis at rogers.com> wrote:
      @font-face {   font-family: Cambria Math;  }  @font-face {   font-family: Calibri;  }  @font-face {   font-family: Tahoma;  }  @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; }  P.MsoNormal {   FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"  }  LI.MsoNormal {   FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"  }  DIV.MsoNormal {   FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","serif"  }  A:link {   COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99  }  SPAN.MsoHyperlink {   COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99  }  A:visited {   COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99  }  SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {   COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99  }  SPAN.EmailStyle17 {   COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-style-type: personal-reply  }  .MsoChpDefault {  
 FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only  }  DIV.Section1 {   page: Section1  }        Shalom All,
   
  This little excerpt from the Matrix movie comes to mind as I read the back and forth, and have new avenues of thought to study and research.  Who knew the rabbit trail was quite this long, back in the days when we swallowed the 'red pill' .....
   
   
   
  Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
  
Neo: You could say that.
  
Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
  
Neo: No.
  
Morpheus: Why not?
  
Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
  
Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
  
Neo: The Matrix?
  
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
  
(Neo nods his head.)
  
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
  
Neo: What truth?
  
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back
  .
(In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)
  
Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
(Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)


_______________________________________________



Paul-Eugene Miller
  Cell: 740.504.2612 



>From the fruit of his words a man shall be satisfied with good, and the work of a man's hands shall come back to him as a harvest. 
-- a proverb from the wisest man that ever lived - Solomon

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/3c4e000f/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 14:08:10 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 19:08:10 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey all,

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a wonderful place!

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.  These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

I'm open for feedback.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/0c1b523f/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/msword
Size: 43520 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/0c1b523f/attachment.dot 

From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com  Thu May  8 15:14:00 2008
From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:14:00 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from
	aHebraicPerspective
In-Reply-To: <014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
References: <482170F5.5080704@westnet.com.au>
	<014a01c8b098$36c50be0$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <E06E99694BE745FCA5E85D09A955311E@DickLPC>

If that happened some time ago in Tennessee, when Rabbi Katz blew the Shofar, it also blew me out of my seat. Wow !!!!     Dick L
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mhyde 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:15 PM
  Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Shma-Israel Resources and Insights from aHebraicPerspective


  Hello to Joe and everyone else!

   

  .

  I'm reminded of the first time I heard the sound of the shofar.  If memory serves me correct. The story was told of how the sound of the shofar that was blown at Mt. Sinai,  waxed greater and greater......  whereas it should have started off loud and then wax softer and softer as the one doing the blowing ran out of air.  But in this case, in Moses' day at the mount, the sound grew louder and louder. At this point Rabbi M. Katz, put the shofar to his lips and chills ran down my spine and the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  I wondered if I was hearing the shofar for the first time or if I had heard it that day with Moses and the rest of the congregation. (I want to believe I heard it with the whole congregation).

   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/e4f003e4/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  8 16:34:20 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:34:20 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>

Hi John:
 
Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for  comments, let me 
begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and  God is 
redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and  redeem. You 
mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and  with that I 
agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and  redeem me? 
This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't question  whether or 
not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the question by what  method 
does God redeem? Or framed in another way what  do we learn about blood covenants 
in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed  in the Hebrew Scriptures that there 
was coming a time when God would no  longer require blood atonement?  Can 
anyone quote the  text? 
 
Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood  offered blood 
sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according  to the Hebrew 
Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself  do I have any 
textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 
exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware  that God did not 
speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings.  But when they 
broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for,  and where do we 
find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask  myself, if all I 
have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no  need of blood 
sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and  cannot find 
a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being atoned through 
blood sacrifice. But I  may be missing the very multiple texts that completely 
wipe away blood  atonement. And so, I'm back to the question do we need the one 
time shed blood  of Yehsua that once and for all eliminates the need for bulls 
and goats  blood sacrifice for atonement? 
 
Sorry to ask these hard questions John,  you have a heart of gold for HaShem. 
 
CB
 
CB



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/12cc0c00/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 19:08:10 +0000
Size: 64264
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/12cc0c00/attachment.mht 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 17:42:51 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 22:42:51 +0000
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050820082242.16217.482381EA000EED0C00003F5922193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Clyde,

Thanks for your comments.  Hard questions are what this list is for man.  I don't know that I can give you a solid answer to yours except to try to frame it within the narrow scope of the question I was addressing.  In order to address the issue of sacrifices in this framework one needs to be able to connect blood sacrifices to Messiah to human sarifice to Yeshua.  You are correct that there is a solid connection in the Hebrew text between blood sacrifice and atonement.  But I have not found any connection to Messiah in this respect.  Messiah is portrayed as the banner, the point of gathering, whether suffering or triumphant he assembles the children of HaShem.  Never is he portrayed as one who substitutes himself for a blood sacrifice for individual salvation.  Why were there sacrifices at all?  I'm not sure.  I don't mean to be evasive but I find myself falling more and more into the camp of those who think that sacrifices were something man wanted, not HaShem.  This is what Ross
 is getting into and to my thinking is part of the WHAT question which I don't have figured out yet.  It is notable to me though that it is not until we get to the NT that the idea of a human sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins even becomes thinkable.

I don't know if that helps any, probably not.

I just can make the connections that I was always taught were there concerning Messiah, I have tried.

Brachot my friend.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 


Hi John:

Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for comments, let me begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and God is redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and redeem. You mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and with that I agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and redeem me? This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't question whether or not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the question by what method does God redeem? Or framed in another way what do we learn about blood covenants in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed in the Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when God would no longer require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text? 

Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood offered blood sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according to the Hebrew Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself do I have any textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 
exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware that God did not speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings. But when they broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for, and where do we find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask myself, if all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no need of blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and cannot find a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being atoned through blood sacrifice. But I may be missing the very multiple texts that completely wipe away blood atonement. And so, I'm back to the question do we need the one time shed blood of Yehsua that once and for all eliminates the need for bulls and goats blood sacrifice for atonement? 

Sorry to ask these hard questions John, you have a heart of gold for HaShem. 

CB

CB






Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/4f99f2d6/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Thu May  8 18:00:48 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:30:48 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...
In-Reply-To: <9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
References: <520796.60691.qm@web83824.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<889426b3efb77ce5590c5bf2cb1f04c2@yahoo.com>	<050720081951.9718.4822085600006D24000025F622243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net><200805080535.m485ZPwO032010@mail208c25.carrierzone.com><00c101c8b115$bb515bc0$31f41340$@com>
	<9449B010174746018E768C67C9AFDC55@Beeblebrox>
Message-ID: <A060CCABDAC94835A7C9EE0F2BFF2EC9@JessicaPC>

Shalom Steve and Sharon, I have often likened 'life in the world' to the Matrix movie. Thanks so much for sharing this excerpt.
Blessings of awakenings
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stephen & Sharon 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:26 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] the red pill...


  Shalom All,

  This little excerpt from the Matrix movie comes to mind as I read the back and forth, and have new avenues of thought to study and research.  Who knew the rabbit trail was quite this long, back in the days when we swallowed the 'red pill' .....



  Morpheus: I imagine that right now you're feeling a bit like Alice. Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

  Neo: You could say that.

  Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he's expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?

  Neo: No.

  Morpheus: Why not?

  Neo: 'Cause I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

  Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know, you can't explain. But you feel it. You felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there. Like a splinter in your mind -- driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

  Neo: The Matrix?

  Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?

  (Neo nods his head.)

  Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window, or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, or when go to church or when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.

  Neo: What truth?

  Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born inside a prison that you cannot smell, taste, or touch. A prison for your mind. (long pause, sighs) Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back
  .
  (In his left hand, Morpheus shows a blue pill.)

  Morpheus: You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. (a red pill is shown in his other hand) You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. (Long pause; Neo begins to reach for the red pill) Remember -- all I am offering is the truth, nothing more.
  (Neo takes the red pill and swallows it with a glass of water)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/405b6e83/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 18:28:35 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:28:35 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
In-Reply-To: <034d01c8ae1c$18cb8ed0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <c15.12edd175.354e8564@aol.com>
	<034d01c8ae1c$18cb8ed0$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081628x3618d176ia9a8d8c9c394ec52@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Betty and Kim!  Chris and I will come to Texas!  Since we homeschool we
try to travel a state a month.  Last year we did 11 states in 12 months!
This year we have only done 1!  At least we know we have someone to midrash
with when we get there!  Chris and Amber

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>  Dear Hanoch,
>
>
>
> You are too dear and too funny!  Don't you know the real reason I"ve been
> hiding out is to make you come to Texas?you know you promised earlier that
> you would have a "sit in" in my living room!!!  I was counting on that!
>
>
>
> No, seriously, I have just been super busy and inundated with so many
> things that I have met myself coming and going?I can only burn the candle at
> both ends for so long and then I crash!  And I did.  I am still trying to
> catch up my sleep, and all the things I have left to do?looks like another
> busy week ahead, plus I won't tell you the number of emails I have in my
> inbox!!!  It is over the top!
>
> Not that I am complaining?I think it is wonderful that all of the great
> "dialogue" is going on;  I am just disappointed that I have had to miss out
> on it.
>
>
>
> I do really appreciate the concern so much?I will have some time today to
> do a little catching up!!!  You guys are prolific writers!
>
>
>
> Much love, many blessings, and shavua tov to you and all
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:20 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find
> you?
>
>
>
> Shavua tov Betty!
>
>
>
>     We all miss you - so where are you hiding?  I don't have the time to
> come down to Texas this week to search for you, so please speak up now!
> :-)
>
>
>
>     And if I have to come to Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty
> sight!
>
>
>
>     Luv ya,
>
>             *  Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah*
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/d11f6d97/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 18:29:57 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:29:57 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Pat!  Chris tried to pull this up Sunday and it wouldn't let him on/in?
Help, Amber

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>  Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up
> the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next
> week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/644494e6/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 18:44:51 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:44:51 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Examples of Atonement without Blood - was A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
References: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001801c8b165$84ba3c30$8e2eb490$@com>

Shalom All, here are a few examples of non-blood sacrifices, perhaps some of
you can add to the list. And of course, REPENTENCE should come with each
one.

 

1.      Exodus 30.12 - Charity 

2.      Exodus 30.15-16 - Money

3.      Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour 

4.      Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer 

5.      Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry 

6.      Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry 

7.      Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil 

8.      Hosea 6.6 - Obedience 

 

Blessings!

 

Patty

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/71bb5512/attachment.html 

From arvidson at ctc.net  Thu May  8 18:46:53 2008
From: arvidson at ctc.net (Gary Arvidson)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:46:53 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
In-Reply-To: <050820082242.16217.482381EA000EED0C00003F5922193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>

Dear Dialogue List,

 

I have followed, or tried to follow, the line of reasoning, logic, and texts
of probably 800-1000 e-mails received of late ? and have said nothing.  Out
of this number of e-mails, there were a considerable volume of entries
concerning the Passover in Egypt as compared to the situation of the one who
was given the name of Yeshua.  So far, the prior discussion appears to have
involved a two-fold comparison about the Passover scenario and the element
of the ?blood sacrifice? (which has also become a part of the discussion).
With my background of study in the texts of both the OT and the NT, I can
more fully appreciate the discussion and dichotomy of various comments about
these issues.  We are all seeking the truth.

 

>From a review of the prior discussion, it would appear that a major element
seems to be missing.  To this point at least, the discussion has revolved
around two things: (#1) the Passover in Egypt with the Lamb, and (#2) the
Passover in NT times with the Man [who, we are told, represents the Lamb].
So now we have the Lamb and the Man (i.e. presumed ?Son of Man [Adam]?).
But is this the end of the story?

 

This brief e-mail would suggest to this audience that we might have
overlooked what is really the authentic scenario #1 with the event of
Abraham and his son Isaac in Ge 22.  This would mean that now scenario #2
would be the theme of the Passover in Egypt, and that now #3 would be the
theme of Yeshua in Palestine.  With this viewpoint, we have a 1-2-3 instead
of just a 1-2.  Why do we start the whole comparison of the Passover with
Egypt, when that was ?down the line? in the story that really began with the
presumed ?sacrifice? in the days of Abraham and Isaac (see: Ge 22)?

 

Now, I don?t know if the Dialogue list is familiar with the story about
Abraham actually having sacrificed Isaac, and that Isaac was resurrected
later just before meeting with Rebeccah.  Vendyl Jones has published
information on this, and one Rabbi has presented something like 33 evidences
that this is so.  It does say that Abraham came down from the mountain, and
returned home.  There is no mention of Isaac coming down from the mountain.
There are many other factors according to this proposed scenario.  When
Abraham returned home, then Sarah died (see: V. Jones for the details of
this story).  The point is that there was some kind of sacrifice situation
(at least proposed for the conventional view) here in Ge 22 with Abraham and
Isaac.  Whether Abraham sacrificed Isaac or not is beside the point.  At
least we have a typological viewpoint of what followed with the sacrifice in
Egypt and with Yeshua.

 

In short, what we have then is a sacrifice situation that is imposed by the
story of Abraham and Isaac.  In fact, the counting of the time of the
promise made to Abraham and Sarah for the one year following in Ge 17:19-26
covers the period of time from the birth of Isaac to the Exodus from Egypt
(i.e. ??the selfsame day??).  This appears to be a key phase that connects
Abraham and Isaac (as benchmarks) all the way down to the exact time of the
Exodus and the 430 years to ??the selfsame day?? in Ex 12:40-41.  I can
document this from notes that I received from Dr. Ernest L. Martin who
taught this amazing parallel.  Hence, we have a serious interconnection
between (#1) Abraham and Isaac as the original Passover scenario, and (#2)
the Passover in Egypt.  I would suggest that there is also a serious
interconnection with (#3) the Passover in 30 CE with Yeshua in Palestine.

 

In other words (and I will make this short), instead of viewing the Passover
Lamb from the position only of (#1) the literal animal Lamb in Egypt, and
(#2) the Man as a type of the Lamb in Palestine -- rather we also have an
original theme that deals with a sacrificial situation in Palestine with
Abraham and Isaac that is a Lamb [ram] / Man ? quite like the situation that
precedes our assumed #1 & #2 ? whereas this #1 & #2 would actually become #2
& #3 in a cycle of 3 phases ? which must include the prior type of (#1)
Abraham and Isaac at this precursor event of a type of a Passover Sacrifice.
Please note that other details of the 430 years and the selfsame day (along
with the 430 years in Gal 3:17) can be supplied upon request.

 

I?m sorry this is so brief and to the point, but I did compose this rather
quickly after a discussion with Clyde Brown.  I have told him about this
research years ago, and he said that I should present it.  I think we need
to realize that the Abraham & Isaac story is also a part of the Torah in
Genesis ? and is prior to the follow-up account of the Passover symbolism
found in Exodus.  First things first.  If we don?t incorporate (#1) the Man
of Genesis in Isaac, with (#2) the Lamb of Exodus, then we may be prone to
miss the absolute significance of (#3) the Man [as type of the Lamb] in the
NT writings, who is represented byYeshua (some say: Yehoshuah).

 

All this is preliminary, experimental, and exploratory.  No dogmatism is
intended.  We remain open-minded.

 

Thank you,

 

Gary

 

   _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:43 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.

 

Hey Clyde,

 

Thanks for your comments.  Hard questions are what this list is for man.  I
don't know that I can give you a solid answer to yours except to try to
frame it within the narrow scope of the question I was addressing.  In order
to address the issue of sacrifices in this framework one needs to be able to
connect blood sacrifices to Messiah to human sarifice to Yeshua.  You are
correct that there is a solid connection in the Hebrew text between blood
sacrifice and atonement.  But I have not found any connection to Messiah in
this respect.  Messiah is portrayed as the banner, the point of gathering,
whether suffering or triumphant he assembles the children of HaShem.  Never
is he portrayed as one who substitutes himself for a blood sacrifice for
individual salvation.  Why were there sacrifices at all?  I'm not sure.  I
don't mean to be evasive but I find myself falling more and more into the
camp of those who think tha t sacrifices were something man wanted, not
HaShem.  This is what Ross is getting into and to my thinking is part of the
WHAT question which I don't have figured out yet.  It is notable to me
though that it is not until we get to the NT that the idea of a human
sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins even becomes thinkable.

 

I don't know if that helps any, probably not.

 

I just can make the connections that I was always taught were there
concerning Messiah, I have tried.

 

Brachot my friend.

 

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

 

-------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 




Hi John:

 

Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for comments, let me
begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and God is
redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and redeem.
You mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and with
that I agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and
redeem me? This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't
question whether or not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the
question by what method does God redeem? Or framed in another way what do we
learn about blood covenants in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed in the
Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when God would no longer
require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text? 

 

Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood offered blood
sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according to the
Hebrew Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself do I have
any textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 

exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware that God did not
speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings. But when they
broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for, and where do we
find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask myself, if
all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no need of
blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and
cannot find a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being
atoned through blood sacrifice. But I may be missing the very multiple texts
that completely wipe away blood atonement. And so, I'm back to the question
do we need the one time shed blood of Yehsua that once and for all
eliminates the need for bulls and goats blood sacrifice for atonement? 

 

Sorry to ask these hard questions John, you have a heart of gold for HaShem.


 

CB

 

CB






   _____  


Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? HYPERLINK
"http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001" \nGet new
twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008
5:23 PM



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008
5:23 PM
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/f7eae306/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 18:46:46 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:46:46 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths - ...help...help...
In-Reply-To: <EB7BAFAEA9134F88B6B74BF473104DA0@JessicaPC>
References: <cd7.2e8a9d0d.354e82fe@aol.com>
	<EB7BAFAEA9134F88B6B74BF473104DA0@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081646k25cd9fv605b9a22a5a2288a@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Jessica!  We weren't sure who you were talking about until we saw his
face.  Chris and I have watched him a couple of times.  thanks for giving us
a place to find him more often.  Amber

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:

>  *Shalom Hanoch,*
> *I only know Rabbi Nati from the Mystical Paths website. Here is a little
> about him from his blog.*
> *He is a genuine Rabbi and student of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. His
> associate, Rabbi Akiva has confirmed the posting as genuine. He works mostly
> in the background and technical side of operating the website. *
> *However, this is Rabbi Nati in action:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54B7e2r5v7g*
> *Please visit the website at: http://www.mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/  I
> would be very interested in your thoughts.*
> *I hope that helps,*
> *Jessica*
> **
> * Reb. Nati
>
>    - Gender: Male
>    - Industry: Religion<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=j&ind=RELIGION>
>    - Location: Yishuv Eli<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL&loc1=Shomron&loc2=Yishuv+Eli>:
>    Shomron<http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL&loc1=Shomron>:
>    Israel <http://www.blogger.com/profile-find.g?t=l&loc0=IL>
>
> About Me
>
> Former United States Marine turn breslov Chassid. "Up in the morning before
> rising sun come on boys we got to get those tfilos done." Uman!!!
>
>
>
>
> *
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>  *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:39 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] By Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths -
> ...help...help...
>
>   Shalom Jessica,
>
>     Shavua tov, and a boker tov (Sunday!), too!  Who is Rabbi Nati?  I'm
> not familiar with him, although what he's describing (harassment,
> interrogation, intimidation, etc) have happened to many, many of my
> friends.   My teacher, Of Blessed Memory, Rav Meir Kahane (May HaShem avenge
> his blood) used to say that the "'real' war in Israel was against the
> Hellenists."  I don't doubt that this is part of it...
>
>     May HaShem have mercy on ALL HIS people, and bring the Geula - the
> final redemption, NOW....
>
>     Very best regards,
>          *  Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah
> *
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/8ab9b68f/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 18:47:18 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:47:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <354728.18246.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/820488d2/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 18:51:43 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:51:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
In-Reply-To: <5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
References: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>
	<5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081651q37f460c0ib8e58fbbd4c64e9c@mail.gmail.com>

Hello again Jessica.  We just realized you were in Austalia.  We have some
Torah observant friends there!  What part are you from?  Chris and Amber

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:

>  *Shabbat Shalom Everyone,*
> *And what a glorious Shabbat it is. The sun is shining, the birds are
> singing, it is a crisp Autumn morning here in South Australia. *
> *Have a wonderful day.*
> *Blessings from Jessica*
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:25 AM
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
>
>   Shalom Y'all,
>
>     Okay, today I have missed a single ray of sunshine - so where is Betty
> hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss you!!
>
>     Don't let 'life' keep you too busy (yes, I know, I should listen to
> myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that you share on this list is
> indispensable - sorry, no days off for you!!
>
>     Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one filled with relaxation and
> rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay - don't forget!!  :-)
>
>     Love ya,
>           *Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah
> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/8a6734db/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 18:51:47 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:51:47 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
References: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c8b166$7b951ed0$72bf5c70$@com>

Hi CB,

 

I think your question below could be answered by you - do you consider
yourself an Israelite (Jew or Lost Tribe) or Gentile? If you consider
yourself a Gentile, perhaps you should consider the Noahide Laws. This was
the Covenant YHWH made with the Gentiles. If you wish to be a part of
Israel, whether by a connection with The Tribes or Jewish ancestry, or
"adoption", you are under the Mosaic Covenant, which forbids human
sacrifice.  I believe the Noahide Laws also forbid human sacrifice and
murder.

 

Blessings,

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of CBrown4465 at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.

 

Hi John:

 

Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for comments, let me
begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and God is
redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and redeem.
You mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and with
that I agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and
redeem me? This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't
question whether or not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the
question by what method does God redeem? Or framed in another way what do we
learn about blood covenants in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed in the
Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when God would no longer
require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text? 

 

Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood offered blood
sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according to the
Hebrew Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself do I have
any textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 

exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware that God did not
speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings. But when they
broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for, and where do we
find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask myself, if
all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no need of
blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and
cannot find a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being
atoned through blood sacrifice. But I may be missing the very multiple texts
that completely wipe away blood atonement. And so, I'm back to the question
do we need the one time shed blood of Yehsua that once and for all
eliminates the need for bulls and goats blood sacrifice for atonement? 

 

Sorry to ask these hard questions John, you have a heart of gold for HaShem.


 

CB

 

CB





  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/c2225ea2/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  8 18:59:09 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 18:59:09 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
In-Reply-To: <c599cad60805081628x3618d176ia9a8d8c9c394ec52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c8b167$82076650$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Wonderful, Amber and Chris! I am in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area and Kim is now
still in LA., but is planning, G-d willing, on moving to the Houston area
this summer!  Great to see you on the list again.  

 

Love and Blessings to you and your family,

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of chris fordham
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find
you?

 

Hey Betty and Kim!  Chris and I will come to Texas!  Since we homeschool we
try to travel a state a month.  Last year we did 11 states in 12 months!
This year we have only done 1!  At least we know we have someone to midrash
with when we get there!  Chris and Amber

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

Dear Hanoch,

 

You are too dear and too funny!  Don't you know the real reason I"ve been
hiding out is to make you come to Texas.you know you promised earlier that
you would have a "sit in" in my living room!!!  I was counting on that!

 

No, seriously, I have just been super busy and inundated with so many things
that I have met myself coming and going.I can only burn the candle at both
ends for so long and then I crash!  And I did.  I am still trying to catch
up my sleep, and all the things I have left to do.looks like another busy
week ahead, plus I won't tell you the number of emails I have in my inbox!!!
It is over the top!

Not that I am complaining.I think it is wonderful that all of the great
"dialogue" is going on;  I am just disappointed that I have had to miss out
on it.

 

I do really appreciate the concern so much.I will have some time today to do
a little catching up!!!  You guys are prolific writers!

 

Much love, many blessings, and shavua tov to you and all

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of YoungBarzel at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:20 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?

 

Shavua tov Betty!

 

    We all miss you - so where are you hiding?  I don't have the time to
come down to Texas this week to search for you, so please speak up now!  :-)


 

    And if I have to come to Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty
sight!

 

    Luv ya,

              Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah

 

  _____  

Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>  twists on
family favorites at AOL Food.


_______________________________________________

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/ec6de4e0/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 19:07:44 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:07:44 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find you?
In-Reply-To: <00d801c8b167$82076650$643c66c9@bettygivin>
References: <c599cad60805081628x3618d176ia9a8d8c9c394ec52@mail.gmail.com>
	<00d801c8b167$82076650$643c66c9@bettygivin>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081707o241c34a1o27d61314a57c217b@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks!  We were in Myrtle Beach, where I was born.  My family lives there.
We were there for seven days.  Trying to catch up on our emails now that we
are back home.  We missed a lot on the list, huh?!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:

>  Wonderful, Amber and Chris! I am in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area and Kim is
> now still in LA., but is planning, G-d willing, on moving to the Houston
> area this summer!  Great to see you on the list again.
>
>
>
> Love and Blessings to you and your family,
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *chris fordham
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 6:29 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to
> find you?
>
>
>
> Hey Betty and Kim!  Chris and I will come to Texas!  Since we homeschool we
> try to travel a state a month.  Last year we did 11 states in 12 months!
> This year we have only done 1!  At least we know we have someone to midrash
> with when we get there!  Chris and Amber
>
> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Betty Givin <bkgivin at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Hanoch,
>
>
>
> You are too dear and too funny!  Don't you know the real reason I"ve been
> hiding out is to make you come to Texas?you know you promised earlier that
> you would have a "sit in" in my living room!!!  I was counting on that!
>
>
>
> No, seriously, I have just been super busy and inundated with so many
> things that I have met myself coming and going?I can only burn the candle at
> both ends for so long and then I crash!  And I did.  I am still trying to
> catch up my sleep, and all the things I have left to do?looks like another
> busy week ahead, plus I won't tell you the number of emails I have in my
> inbox!!!  It is over the top!
>
> Not that I am complaining?I think it is wonderful that all of the great
> "dialogue" is going on;  I am just disappointed that I have had to miss out
> on it.
>
>
>
> I do really appreciate the concern so much?I will have some time today to
> do a little catching up!!!  You guys are prolific writers!
>
>
>
> Much love, many blessings, and shavua tov to you and all
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *YoungBarzel at aol.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:20 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Betty, am I going to have to come to Texas to find
> you?
>
>
>
> Shavua tov Betty!
>
>
>
>     We all miss you - so where are you hiding?  I don't have the time to
> come down to Texas this week to search for you, so please speak up now!
> :-)
>
>
>
>     And if I have to come to Texas.....we'll it's not going to be a pretty
> sight!
>
>
>
>     Luv ya,
>
>             *  Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah*
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/19fdd118/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 19:11:17 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
In-Reply-To: <20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
Message-ID: <909213.10327.qm@web51101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/73e3d8c4/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  8 19:51:03 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:51:03 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>

Hi Chris and Amber!!!

OK, here's what I did.  Go to www.rootsoffaith.org  Then click on "Listen Live."  Scroll all the way down to the bottom.  There is a box on the bottom, right-hand side that says, "The Windows Media Format Stream Requires the FREE Windows Media Player."  Just click on the "Download and install Windows Media Player 9+," (written in red) and it will install free on you computer.  Then all you have to do is, when it is almost time for the broadcast, repeat the first steps of clicking on the site, then Listen Live, but this time go to the bottom and use the left-hand box which says, "Listen to the Live Audio Feed. Click the top line which is written in red and says,, "Click Here for the Windows Media Feed."

I would go on and install the FREE Window Media Player now so you'll be ready on Sunday.  Then on Sunday, click on maybe 10 minutes early to be sure it is all working.  There will be wonderful music to listen to while you're waiting for Ross to begin. It's the Hac! V'Shema = Shutup and Listen! CD by John, Glenn and Sherry.  You'll hear the music until Ross signs on.

Love you guys!

Pat


From: chris fordham 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:29 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~


Hey Pat!  Chris tried to pull this up Sunday and it wouldn't let him on/in?  Help, Amber


On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat

  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/4372ceca/attachment.html 

From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net  Thu May  8 19:52:52 2008
From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:52:52 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years Ago Tonight
Message-ID: <8988A833-E69F-4B91-8FAA-5CA700BBA171@earthlink.net>

I tremble to think what things were like 60 years ago tonight in the  
Land of Israel. I just walked outside and looked at the tiny crescent  
of the moon, this third day of the month of Iyyar. On the one hand the  
Gregorian Calendar with its solar pinpointed years, marking May 14th  
as the anniversary of the declaration of the State of Israel is more  
accurate, but on the other hand, in terms of hte Moon and how the Sky  
actually looked that evening, the Lunar/Jewish calendar I find more  
moving. I sat for a few moments in the darkening evening and thought  
about that Sky, 60 years ago tonight, when EVERYTHING hung in the  
balance.

In terms of the Solar and Lunar calendars and how they are calculated  
I came across a rather amazing discovery a few years ago. Let me quote  
from something I wrote on this in my book Restoring Abrahamic Faith  
directly:

> The current Jewish calendar is based on mathematical averages to  
> balance the lunar and solar years with intercalations. This was  
> necessary in the Exile, since the new moons, and the maturity of the  
> harvests, could not be directly observed. In 1948 the intercalated  
> 13th month, Adar II, was added to the year, based on this  
> mathematical Hillel calendar. This puts the establishment of the  
> State of Israel, which took place on Friday, May 14, 1948, at  
> midnight, on Iyar 5/6, which is the 2nd month. However, if one goes  
> by the observation method, as the Karaite Jews, and refrains from  
> adding Adar II, everything is moved back one lunar month. This means  
> that May 14, 1948 was not Iyar 5/6, but actually Sivan 6th, or  
> Shavuot! This system of the observed calendar will obviously be  
> restored in the future, with Sabbath years and the Jubilee. It is  
> surely no accident that May 14/15, chosen arbitrarily by the British  
> for the expiration of their mandate over Palestine, turns out to be  
> Shavuot, or Pentecost, and at the beginning of a Sabbath day as well.

If you know much about Shavuot and the way it has played a role so  
many times in the past signaling "New Beginnings," this fact of  
history really strikes one as more than significant.

Wishing all the best this austere evening...

James Tabor


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/957a882d/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: IsraelMisc.zip
Type: application/zip
Size: 33061 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/957a882d/attachment.zip 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/957a882d/attachment-0001.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 20:00:10 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:00:10 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081800w4510bb6cy830842fac1a5f74f@mail.gmail.com>

OKAY!  THANKS PAT.  CHRIS JUST SAID HE TRIED TO LISTEN SATURDAY; NOT
SUNDAY.  I WAS OUT OF TOWN WITH THE KIDS AT MY DAD'S.  WE WILL TRY AGAIN
THIS SUNDAY!  THANKS AGAIN!  LOVE YA, AMBER

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>  Hi Chris and Amber!!!
>
> OK, here's what I did.  Go to www.rootsoffaith.org  Then click on "Listen
> Live."  Scroll all the way down to the bottom.  There is a box on the
> bottom, right-hand side that says, "The Windows Media Format Stream Requires
> the FREE Windows Media Player."  Just click on the "Download and install
> Windows Media Player 9+," (written in red) and it will install free on you
> computer.  Then all you have to do is, when it is almost time for
> the broadcast, repeat the first steps of clicking on the site, then Listen
> Live, but this time go to the bottom and use the left-hand box which says,
> "Listen to the Live Audio Feed. Click the top line which is written in
> red and says,, "Click Here for the Windows Media Feed."
>
> I would go on and install the FREE Window Media Player now so you'll be
> ready on Sunday.  Then on Sunday, click on maybe 10 minutes early to be sure
> it is all working.  There will be wonderful music to listen to while you're
> waiting for Ross to begin. It's the Hac! V'Shema = Shutup and Listen! CD by
> John, Glenn and Sherry.  You'll hear the music until Ross signs on.
>
> Love you guys!
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* chris fordham <calbfordham at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:29 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
>
> Hey Pat!  Chris tried to pull this up Sunday and it wouldn't let him
> on/in?  Help, Amber
>
> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up
>> the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next
>> week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/1b167e99/attachment.html 

From bkgivin at charter.net  Thu May  8 20:08:29 2008
From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 20:08:29 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <012001c8b171$31475b80$643c66c9@bettygivin>

Dear John,

 

I just read your beautiful treatise.  I am so glad that to know have reached
your place of "Shalom" on this issue.  I really, really can identify with
some of what you went thru to come to this point.  I have felt much the same
way for years about the purpose of Yeshua's coming, not for personal
salvation, but to regather the tribes!  

 

In my opinion, your "conclusion" is profound and very deep in its
simplicity. I could feel your heart all the way thru it!

 

I could say more, as you made some excellent points that I recognized when I
was reading, but am losing my clarity of thinking right now. my late nights
this week are catching up with me, but I just had to tell you thank you for
sharing.  Although we may be in different places, and will continue to study
and meditate and pray for deeper understanding and insights and answers to
our 'hard questions, I believe that we all need to find our place of
"Shalom," on this very important issue.

 

Love and Blessings to you, brother!

 

Betty/Elisheva

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of
carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:08 PM
To: Dialogue
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.

 

Hey all,

 

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a
wonderful place!

 

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out
some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I
have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that
care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.
These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

 

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the
Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

 

I'm open for feedback.

 

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/a062ded7/attachment.html 

From ptyler at aac-usa.com  Thu May  8 20:25:00 2008
From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty )
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:25:00 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years Ago Tonight
In-Reply-To: <8988A833-E69F-4B91-8FAA-5CA700BBA171@earthlink.net>
References: <8988A833-E69F-4B91-8FAA-5CA700BBA171@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009501c8b173$81bbe7f0$8533b7d0$@com>

Wow - do you think 1948 may be the year 6,000 - the beginning of the
millennium as I proposed earlier?

 

Patty

 

From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org
[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 8:53 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] 60 Years Ago Tonight

 

This means that May 14, 1948 was not Iyar 5/6, but actually Sivan 6th, or
Shavuot! This system of the observed calendar will obviously be restored in
the future, with Sabbath years and the Jubilee. It is surely no accident
that May 14/15, chosen arbitrarily by the British for the expiration of
their mandate over Palestine, turns out to be Shavuot, or Pentecost, and at
the beginning of a Sabbath day as well.

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/5dde025d/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 20:28:43 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:28:43 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
In-Reply-To: <023b01c8ab5c$8b3c87c0$6402a8c0@desktop>
References: <200805010645.m416joQ4016676@mail105c25.carrierzone.com>
	<007801c8ab59$a26eab60$643c66c9@bettygivin>
	<023b01c8ab5c$8b3c87c0$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081828x1280353fyc00ef19ce65f1610@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Patty Mitchell!  This is Amber Fordham from South Carolina!  I didn't
know you were on this list.  I've gotten a couple of emails from Rachel
since she got back to Israel!  Also I met Craig and Jan a few weeks back
through some mutual friends.  It's a small world!!!  Shalom, Chris and Amber

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 3:25 AM, Patty Mitchell <pmitchel at netvision.net.il>
wrote:

>  Hey y'all,
>
>
>
> We just had our first public remembrance of the Shoah.  Here at home we
> have a 2 minute siren at 10 a.m. and everything (except the arabs) comes to
> a silent standstill.  Taxi drivers and other drivers stop where they are and
> get out of their car to stand.  It's an incredible scene here.  I went to my
> garden door to stand (I want to make it public) and in the street in front
> of my home was a taxi stopped with the driver beside his car and a lady at
> the bus stop all standing in silence.  As my visitor said, it always gives
> chills.  Tonight (assuming this year will be the same as the past) there
> will be no regular television except for programs of the Shoah.
>
>
>
> We'll have this same thing happen next Wednesday as we remember our fallen
> soldiers on Memorial Day.  The next day is Independence day, a day of WILD
> celebration.  My first year here I went to Ben Yehuda for it and it was pure
> bedlam fun!  I went just to look but after getting "foamed" for the 10thtime I got my own can and went for it foaming everyone I could?ahh the sweet
> taste of PAYBACK!  I have a pic of the end of the evening of what another
> friend and I looked like?NOT a pretty sight!  But much fun!
>
>
>
> May we never forget.
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Betty Givin
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:05 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
>
>
>
> Thank you, Steve, for the reminder?and how fitting that it is also Yom
> HaShoah?may we both find ways to publically acknowledge our solidarity with
> Eretz Israel?and for all those who have given their lives for her!
>
>
>
> Haven't read your Kedoshim  post yet, but looking forward to it as I do all
> of your posts!  Thank you for your wisdom and thoughtful comments in
> advance!  May HaShem bless you and keep you in His care!
>
>
>
> Laila tov and blessings to you from Texas at 2:00am.  I have to be up and
> wide awake in 4 hours, so I had better get busy getting to sleep, or I will
> be like Hanoch?
>
>
>
> Betty/Elisheva
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Mathe
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:39 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Please join in on National Day of Prayer
>
>
>
> Friends,
>
> I almost forgot to send this notice out. Thursday is our National Day of
> Prayer. I won't preach to you about the importance of this opportunity to
> add our prayers to those of our land, this land of Joseph. We may be trying
> to connect to Eretz Israel, but we also need to remember *this* land, the
> land that the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given us and in which He
> has placed us, "the greatest nation on G-d's green Earth"....... This often
> quoted verse speaks of itself:
>
>
> "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and
> pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
> from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."   (II
> Chron. 7:14).
>
> Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/45224ff3/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  8 20:30:41 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:30:41 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
References: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS5C149B1798B7153AF19B3BAD30@phx.gbl>

John, this blessed me so much!  I loved reading and rereading it.

Thank you for sharing with us, 

Pat 


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:08 PM
To: Dialogue 
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


Hey all,

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a wonderful place!

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.  These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

I'm open for feedback.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/3b000408/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 20:35:58 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 21:35:58 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
In-Reply-To: <01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>
References: <bcb.28295ef1.354956c8@aol.com>
	<299C94D9780E4ACF9C23FA7038720BDB@JessicaPC>
	<014601c8aa85$a719fe50$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0E0A62B8612C4CC78A1CB652ED6F6DA4@JessicaPC>
	<004b01c8aab9$9fc57a10$6402a8c0@desktop>
	<0D80F238B98C43D29F4E03AFFDCBF733@JessicaPC>
	<01d001c8ab4a$71b62070$6402a8c0@desktop>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081835h42042c45i4c688c71d560ca99@mail.gmail.com>

We can't wait to hear about the former muslim, now Torah observant!  Email
me Patty!  Amber Fordham

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:16 AM, Patty Mitchell <pmitchel at netvision.net.il>
wrote:

>  Me too!  But can y'all deal with the tarantula I have loose in the
> house???? Haven't had time to deal with him yet!  Except I do go through the
> back part of my home with my weapon of choice for mass destruction,  a
> string mop!  Any one got any suggestions on how to entice a tarantula to
> death???
>
>
>
> Last night I heard a former Muslim now Torah observant Believer speak.
> Wow!  My head was swimming most of the night!  When I can I'll write it up
> for ya'll.  AMAZING!
>
> Patty
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Jessica
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> *Patty that would be marvellous. We'll do exactly that when HaShem brings
> us all together. Without a doubt. I sure hope your plumbing can cope.*
>
>
>
> *Jessica*
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>  *From:* Patty Mitchell <pmitchel at netvision.net.il>
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:29 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> Hey Jessica!
>
>
>
> That sounds wonderful, I haven't been to Australia yet.  BUT!  *THE* place
> to be at Succot is right here in Jerusalem so why don't you just come on
> over here and celebrate with us at home?!?!?!  J
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Jessica
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:20 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> *Hey Patty better still - how about you guys come on over here to Aussie
> land. April is gorgeous as is October. It's warmer up north where my teacher
> friend lives, but is Spring down south here and just gloriously beautiful.
> Rather like Israel I imagine.*
>
> *Jessica*
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Patty Mitchell <pmitchel at netvision.net.il>
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:17 PM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> Hey Jessica,
>
>
>
> Bad news!  NC is also prone to hurricanes!  As is SC where I spent many
> years including the year that Hugo ravaged not only the coastal area but
> also Columbia where I was one hundred miles inland and then I went up
> through Charlotte NC!  The safest place n in the center of HIS eye so come
> on over?oops?go on over there!
>
>
>
> Haven't forgotten those contacts for you back to you soon on them!
>
>
>
> Patty
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:
> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Jessica
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:16 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> *Not a bad idea Hanoch - I hear there are some pretty mean hurricanes in
> Louisiana around the time of Sukkot. I will have to find a map to see where
> North Carolina is.*
>
> *Nighty night to y'all who are off to beddie byes - Jessica*
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:29 PM
>
> *Subject:* [Dialogue] What's going on here???
>
>
>
> HEY!!  This is starting to sound like a sleep over party!  I can just
> picture it, Pat will be setting everyone's hair, Betty will be singing
> Karaoke into the mirrors...Jessica will be harmonizing in the background,
> cause she's got the coolest accent (next to my New York one, that is..),
> Patty will be running around with her tambourine....man, this is getting too
> weird!!
>
>
>
>     John, Glenn and Steve will be playing checkers on the floor, Ross will
> be lecturing to* someone....*Kim and Linda will be there, having a beer,
> Helen will be teaching me a Scots accent, etc....Glenn and Dave will be
> jamming.....
>
>
>
> And I thought I was in a group of revolutionaries!!  Zealots even!!  Am I
> in the *Twilight Zone, *or what?
>
>
>
>    Maybe just overtired...hey Jessica - forget Sukkot in Louisiana - how
> 'bout hooking up with us in North Carolina in April??  Time for you to go
> walkabout, don't you think?  Time to argue this tomorrow....let me not
> repeat the Monty Python 'living in a shoe box in the middle of the road'
> thing, where I get up an hour before I go to sleep!
>
>
>
>     Just remember, 'NOBODY counts on the Spanish Inquisition, as they
> say...'
>
>
>
>     Laila tov & sweet dreams,
>
>
>
>       *            **Hanoch  **the Lil Lion of Judah*
>
>             *Now we ALL know Rav Kahane was right!*
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL
> Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851>.
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/48879b89/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 21:03:17 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 02:03:17 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <354728.18246.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<354728.18246.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050920080203.225.4823B0E1000E92F1000000E122230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Hey Tracy,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought the Israelites were praying to Moses on the Mount, I'm not sure how I did that but nothing could be farther from the truth.  Moses was simply a representative of the Israelite nation, I fully agree with that.  Please let me know what I said to give that impression.

Regarding our different paths to Christianity, apparently so!  I can't think of any Christian churches or groups that I have belonged to in my life (and they are many) that did not think that Yeshua was G-d in the flesh.  And made it a requirement (spoken or not) that all prayers were directed through him.

Thanks brother, be well.

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

Hey Brother,

Maybe others have come thru Christianity a certain way, or thru a particular branch of it, with beliefs and practices that never laid hold of me or maybe its been so long since I was in the midst of it, that I don't realize how far I've come. 

I always knew that Yeshua was not G-d. I remember where I was when G-d revealed that to me (about 1984) clearly. I always think of a 'Mediator' in terms of a 'negotiator', one that is called to a prayer task on behalf of a person, or a nation - not a replacement or substitute for G-d. "A prophet like unto Moses" on behalf of all Israel. 

I never conceived of the Israelites praying to Moses while he was on the Mount praying and winning G-d's favor on their behalf. And, in my reading of it, nor does the Netsarim Testimony (including Paul). 

A messenger, a sent one, who was obedient to G-d unto death, who spilled his blood, on behalf of that mission and was the first to be resurrected. But, as someone to pray to, that is a 'Catholic/Christian' thing - that is not a part of the Netsarim Testimony. I don't remember ever looking at Yeshua as a 'personal savior' in that way. 

Blessings be upon thee,

Tracy


--- On Thu, 5/8/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 2:08 PM


Hey all,

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a wonderful place!

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.  These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

I'm open for feedback.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

_______________________________________________




Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/6ed792ad/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 21:07:18 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 02:07:18 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS5C149B1798B7153AF19B3BAD30@phx.gbl>
References: <050820081908.26007.48234F99000558A00000659722230647629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<BLU125-DS5C149B1798B7153AF19B3BAD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <050920080207.12444.4823B1D2000960830000309C22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

B'vakasha Pat.

I'm glad it was a blessing to you.

Brachcot v'Shalom

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>: -------------- 


John, this blessed me so much!  I loved reading and rereading it.

Thank you for sharing with us, 

Pat 


From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:08 PM
To: Dialogue 
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


Hey all,

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a wonderful place!

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.  These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

I'm open for feedback.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 




_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/21d3cb6d/attachment.html 

From rndavar at aol.com  Thu May  8 21:09:31 2008
From: rndavar at aol.com (=?utf-8?B?Um9zcyBOaWNob2xz?=)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 02:09:31 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Sunday Shul, May 11th
Message-ID: <2141030711-1210298959-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1047364216-@bxe029.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I sent this out earlier and noticed all the emails about Sunday Shul. I am trying to catch up on all the messages. I hope you are all well. Shalom, Ross

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: "Roots of Faith" <bulletin at rootsoffaith.org>

Date: Thu,  8 May 2008 19:30:02 
To:rndavar at aol.com
Subject: Sunday Shul, May 11th


No Sunday Shul Class - Sunday, May 11thI am sending this note to my list to inform you that there will be no Sunday Shul class on Sunday, May 11th.? We will resume the following week, Sunday, May 18th at?our regular time with the Messiah series. My family will taking the day off from everything to show my wife our appreciation for all that she does since this is Mother's Day.? When you have 6 children as we do, this is a day that should not pass unnoticed! Even though this is not a Biblical Festival, it is a time set aside to honor mothers. So, Happy Mother's Day to all of you moms out there!The classes on messiah have generated a lot of interest and I truly appreciate the feedback. There are of course, plenty of classes posted on my web site. Perhaps you can use this time to catch up on previous classes.? I appreciate your understanding.I will be sending out another email news bulletin shortly to announce some things that we are working on for all of you that have become associated with this work at the Synagogue without Walls.? ThanksClick
here to unsubscribe <http://www.imsclients.com/listmail/unsubscribe.php?M=24342&N=181&L=11&C=bcfaa292e8c27c7c8b966a9189f6699f> 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  8 21:16:37 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:16:37 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl><c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com><BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081800w4510bb6cy830842fac1a5f74f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl><c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com><BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081800w4510bb6cy830842fac1a5f74f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS333A63418997DB4F5A96CBAD30@phx.gbl>

Amber, Ross is not going to teach this Sunday because it is Mother's Day, so the next teaching will be the 18th, at 7:00 Central Time.
Love you!


From: chris fordham 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:00 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~


OKAY!  THANKS PAT.  CHRIS JUST SAID HE TRIED TO LISTEN SATURDAY; NOT SUNDAY.  I WAS OUT OF TOWN WITH THE KIDS AT MY DAD'S.  WE WILL TRY AGAIN THIS SUNDAY!  THANKS AGAIN!  LOVE YA, AMBER


On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

  Hi Chris and Amber!!!

  OK, here's what I did.  Go to www.rootsoffaith.org  Then click on "Listen Live."  Scroll all the way down to the bottom.  There is a box on the bottom, right-hand side that says, "The Windows Media Format Stream Requires the FREE Windows Media Player."  Just click on the "Download and install Windows Media Player 9+," (written in red) and it will install free on you computer.  Then all you have to do is, when it is almost time for the broadcast, repeat the first steps of clicking on the site, then Listen Live, but this time go to the bottom and use the left-hand box which says, "Listen to the Live Audio Feed. Click the top line which is written in red and says,, "Click Here for the Windows Media Feed."

  I would go on and install the FREE Window Media Player now so you'll be ready on Sunday.  Then on Sunday, click on maybe 10 minutes early to be sure it is all working.  There will be wonderful music to listen to while you're waiting for Ross to begin. It's the Hac! V'Shema = Shutup and Listen! CD by John, Glenn and Sherry.  You'll hear the music until Ross signs on.

  Love you guys!

  Pat


  From: chris fordham 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:29 PM
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~


  Hey Pat!  Chris tried to pull this up Sunday and it wouldn't let him on/in?  Help, Amber


  On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote:

    Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat

    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________




  _______________________________________________






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/d28f981a/attachment.html 

From tposborne77 at yahoo.com  Thu May  8 21:16:57 2008
From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:16:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <050920080203.225.4823B0E1000E92F1000000E122230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <183163.84132.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/b2cfd4f8/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 21:23:03 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 02:23:03 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <183163.84132.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <050920080203.225.4823B0E1000E92F1000000E122230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<183163.84132.qm@web51103.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <050920080223.29277.4823B58400037ACB0000725D22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Amein!

Love and Prayers back at ya.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

John,

No you didn't give me that impression. It's simply an analogy that illustrates the true role of a 'mediator' and how I see the role of Yeshua ben David now - on the mount bowing before HaShem, praying for Judah, Joseph/Israel, and the nations - but, about to come down from the mount and be revealed to All Israel. So sad, that while he's been gone, people turned him into a 'golden calf' to worship.

Love & Prayers,

Tracy




--- On Thu, 5/8/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 9:03 PM


Hey Tracy,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought the Israelites were praying to Moses on the Mount, I'm not sure how I did that but nothing could be farther from the truth.  Moses was simply a representative of the Israelite nation, I fully agree with that.  Please let me know what I said to give that impression.

Regarding our different paths to Christianity, apparently so!  I can't think of any Christian churches or groups that I have belonged to in my life (and they are many) that did not think that Yeshua was G-d in the flesh.  And made it a requirement (spoken or not) that all prayers were directed through him.

Thanks brother, be well.

Shalom.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from Tracy Osborne <tposborne77 at yahoo.com>: -------------- 

Hey Brother,

Maybe others have come thru Christianity a certain way, or thru a particular branch of it, with beliefs and practices that never laid hold of me or maybe its been so long since I was in the midst of it, that I don't realize how far I've come. 

I always knew that Yeshua was not G-d. I remember where I was when G-d revealed that to me (about 1984) clearly. I always think of a 'Mediator' in terms of a 'negotiator', one that is called to a prayer task on behalf of a person, or a nation - not a replacement or substitute for G-d. "A prophet like unto Moses" on behalf of all Israel. 

I never conceived of the Israelites praying to Moses while he was on the Mount praying and winning G-d's favor on their behalf. And, in my reading of it, nor does the Netsarim Testimony (including Paul). 

A messenger, a sent one, who was obedient to G-d unto death, who spilled his blood, on behalf of that mission and was the first to be resurrected. But, as someone to pray to, that is a 'Catholic/Christian' thing - that is not a part of the Netsarim Testimony. I don't remember ever looking at Yeshua as a 'personal savior' in that way. 

Blessings be upon thee,

Tracy


--- On Thu, 5/8/08, carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Date: Thursday, May 8, 2008, 2:08 PM


Hey all,

I have been following the discussions and continue to be amazed.  This is a wonderful place!

One of the reasons I decided to take a break is that I needed to sort out some things that I recently learned for myself during these discussions.  I have completed that task and written my conclusions down for any of you that care to read them (it's kinda long, sorry).  The document is attached.  These are good conclusions, or at least I think so.

I think it is amazing that there are some posts just put up regarding the Matrix just as I was about to send this.  There are no coincidences.

I'm open for feedback.

Shalom.
--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 

_______________________________________________




Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
_______________________________________________




Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/168b473a/attachment.html 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 21:35:15 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:35:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS333A63418997DB4F5A96CBAD30@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU125-DS48BCFE0DC3DEE312C8EA5BAD70@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081629j37466abp508521bd7f3759c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU125-DS30DADB3F76273439D93ECBAD30@phx.gbl>
	<c599cad60805081800w4510bb6cy830842fac1a5f74f@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLU125-DS333A63418997DB4F5A96CBAD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081935u5e39951p59197d3ed9ff292f@mail.gmail.com>

Okay!  Thanks Pat!

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
wrote:

>  Amber, Ross is not going to teach this Sunday because it is Mother's Day,
> so the next teaching will be the 18th, at 7:00 Central Time.
> Love you!
>
>  *From:* chris fordham <calbfordham at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 9:00 PM
>  *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
>
> OKAY!  THANKS PAT.  CHRIS JUST SAID HE TRIED TO LISTEN SATURDAY; NOT
> SUNDAY.  I WAS OUT OF TOWN WITH THE KIDS AT MY DAD'S.  WE WILL TRY AGAIN
> THIS SUNDAY!  THANKS AGAIN!  LOVE YA, AMBER
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  Hi Chris and Amber!!!
>>
>> OK, here's what I did.  Go to www.rootsoffaith.org  Then click on "Listen
>> Live."  Scroll all the way down to the bottom.  There is a box on the
>> bottom, right-hand side that says, "The Windows Media Format Stream Requires
>> the FREE Windows Media Player."  Just click on the "Download and install
>> Windows Media Player 9+," (written in red) and it will install free on
>> you computer.  Then all you have to do is, when it is almost time for
>> the broadcast, repeat the first steps of clicking on the site, then Listen
>> Live, but this time go to the bottom and use the left-hand box which says,
>> "Listen to the Live Audio Feed. Click the top line which is written in
>> red and says,, "Click Here for the Windows Media Feed."
>>
>> I would go on and install the FREE Window Media Player now so you'll be
>> ready on Sunday.  Then on Sunday, click on maybe 10 minutes early to be sure
>> it is all working.  There will be wonderful music to listen to while you're
>> waiting for Ross to begin. It's the Hac! V'Shema = Shutup and Listen! CD by
>> John, Glenn and Sherry.  You'll hear the music until Ross signs on.
>>
>> Love you guys!
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>  *From:* chris fordham <calbfordham at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:29 PM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul ~
>>
>> Hey Pat!  Chris tried to pull this up Sunday and it wouldn't let him
>> on/in?  Help, Amber
>>
>> On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Pat Robbins <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>  Thank you for teaching us tonight, Ross!!!  I loved that you brought up
>>> the fact that David's sons are called Kohanim!   ~  Can't wait till next
>>> week for more Sunday Shul!!!!  ~ Pat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/8fe22a12/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Thu May  8 21:42:22 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:42:22 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>

Dear John:
 
I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into  these 
deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have been on  this 
journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is hurt one  of  
God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I think  it is best for 
all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore this will  be my last post. 
 May our great God bless you all
 
Take care dear ones
 
Clyde



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/165aff65/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 02:03:17 +0000
Size: 11166
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/165aff65/attachment.mht 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 22:07:12 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 03:07:12 +0000
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050920080307.21561.4823BFDD000943C10000543922230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>

Clyde,

I'm confused.  I took no offense at all to your response.  I tried to answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability.  I just don't know how to address the issue of sacrifices any better than I did.  The email that you responded to here was to Tracy regarding some questions he had.  These are the experiences I've had, I can't change that.

I am not hurt at all.  Please respond.

--
John C. 

"Be excellent to each other!" 
Bill and Ted 


-------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 


Dear John:

I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is hurt one of  God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore this will be my last post.  May our great God bless you all

Take care dear ones

Clyde






Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/5c24453b/attachment.html 

From mhyde7 at tds.net  Thu May  8 22:15:05 2008
From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde7 at tds.net)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:15:05 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <050920080307.21561.4823BFDD000943C10000543922230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
Message-ID: <20080508221505.KXP1Y.268908.root@webfep11>

  clyde,

please keep sharing... somebody has got to ask the hard questions.   that is how we learn.  We have got to have the questions.   Most of the time we can't even formulate the question, let alone know enough to ask it.   Keep them comming....  i enjoy the learning.   I for one would not spend the time reading these post if I did not find them of interest.


---- carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: 
> Clyde,
> 
> I'm confused.  I took no offense at all to your response.  I tried to answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability.  I just don't know how to address the issue of sacrifices any better than I did.  The email that you responded to here was to Tracy regarding some questions he had.  These are the experiences I've had, I can't change that.
> 
> I am not hurt at all.  Please respond.
> 
> --
> John C. 
> 
> "Be excellent to each other!" 
> Bill and Ted 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 
> 
> 
> Dear John:
> 
> I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is hurt one of  God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore this will be my last post.  May our great God bless you all
> 
> Take care dear ones
> 
> Clyde
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.



From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Thu May  8 22:44:47 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 23:44:47 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <20080508221505.KXP1Y.268908.root@webfep11>
References: <20080508221505.KXP1Y.268908.root@webfep11>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS650FC296FBC3DAD263AB7BAD30@phx.gbl>

Clyde, please stay with us.  How can we gather ourselves together without 
dialogue?  You are ALWAYS sensitive and kind.  Forgive me for not being 
nearly so loving as you.

Pat

--------------------------------------------------
From: <mhyde7 at tds.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:15 PM
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.

>  clyde,
>
> please keep sharing... somebody has got to ask the hard questions.   that 
> is how we learn.  We have got to have the questions.   Most of the time we 
> can't even formulate the question, let alone know enough to ask it.   Keep 
> them comming....  i enjoy the learning.   I for one would not spend the 
> time reading these post if I did not find them of interest.
>
>
> ---- carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
>> Clyde,
>>
>> I'm confused.  I took no offense at all to your response.  I tried to 
>> answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability.  I just 
>> don't know how to address the issue of sacrifices any better than I did. 
>> The email that you responded to here was to Tracy regarding some 
>> questions he had.  These are the experiences I've had, I can't change 
>> that.
>>
>> I am not hurt at all.  Please respond.
>>
>> --
>> John C.
>>
>> "Be excellent to each other!"
>> Bill and Ted
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 
>>
>>
>> Dear John:
>>
>> I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into 
>> these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have 
>> been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is 
>> hurt one of  God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I 
>> think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore 
>> this will be my last post.  May our great God bless you all
>>
>> Take care dear ones
>>
>> Clyde
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites 
>> at AOL Food.
>
> _______________________________________________
> 


From loyb at prodigy.net  Thu May  8 22:52:12 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:52:12 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
References: <20080508221505.KXP1Y.268908.root@webfep11>
Message-ID: <000f01c8b188$1108b0f0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

I agree Clyde,  We need you and your 50 years of study. Don't go NOW.  Loy 
Leorah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mhyde7 at tds.net>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


>  clyde,
>
> please keep sharing... somebody has got to ask the hard questions.   that 
> is how we learn.  We have got to have the questions.   Most of the time we 
> can't even formulate the question, let alone know enough to ask it.   Keep 
> them comming....  i enjoy the learning.   I for one would not spend the 
> time reading these post if I did not find them of interest.
>
>
> ---- carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote:
>> Clyde,
>>
>> I'm confused.  I took no offense at all to your response.  I tried to 
>> answer your question to the best of my knowledge and ability.  I just 
>> don't know how to address the issue of sacrifices any better than I did. 
>> The email that you responded to here was to Tracy regarding some 
>> questions he had.  These are the experiences I've had, I can't change 
>> that.
>>
>> I am not hurt at all.  Please respond.
>>
>> --
>> John C.
>>
>> "Be excellent to each other!"
>> Bill and Ted
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message from CBrown4465 at aol.com: -------------- 
>>
>>
>> Dear John:
>>
>> I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into 
>> these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have 
>> been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is 
>> hurt one of  God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I 
>> think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore 
>> this will be my last post.  May our great God bless you all
>>
>> Take care dear ones
>>
>> Clyde
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites 
>> at AOL Food.
>
> _______________________________________________ 



From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Thu May  8 22:47:32 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 03:47:32 +0000
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1285091708-1210305299-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-64922924-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Clyde,

I must repeat, I don't know why you are upset.  I took no offense and I don't know what I said to make you think I was.  Please forgive me if I upset you, it was not intended.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com

Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 22:42:22 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


Dear John: 
? 
I?want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is hurt one of? God's?little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views.?Therefore this will be my last post. ?May our great God bless you all 
? 
Take care dear ones 
? 
Clyde




----------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> ._______________________________________________


From tmich33 at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 00:40:39 2008
From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 05:40:39 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
In-Reply-To: <20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
References: <050820082242.16217.482381EA000EED0C00003F5922193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
Message-ID: <050920080540.18963.4823E3D60009FC8400004A1322218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net>

Hey Gary,
Myself personally I would like to hear more about this. I went back and reread Genesis and I'm amazed at what I missed....it definately does not say that Issac was with Abraham when he came back from the alter. If I remember correctly the Muslums believe that Issac was sacrificed also. Makes sence what the Torah Anthology says about Issac being Holy as he was a sacrifice to G-d. He was not allowed to leave Holy ground, hence the servant going to get him a bride, it also explains why Sarah died so suddenly. Another question is why the geneology of his brother directly after the incident? There had to be some significance to that.
Thanks for the input. : )
Tammy


Dear Dialogue List,
 
I have followed, or tried to follow, the line of reasoning, logic, and texts of probably 800-1000 e-mails received of late ? and have said nothing.  Out of this number of e-mails, there were a considerable volume of entries concerning the Passover in Egypt as compared to the situation of the one who was given the name of Yeshua.  So far, the prior discussion appears to have involved a two-fold comparison about the Passover scenario and the element of the ?blood sacrifice? (which has also become a part of the discussion).  With my background of study in the texts of both the OT and the NT, I can more fully appreciate the discussion and dichotomy of various comments about these issues.  We are all seeking the truth.
 
>From a review of the prior discussion, it would appear that a major element seems to be missing.  To this point at least, the discussion has revolved around two things: (#1) the Passover in Egypt with the Lamb, and (#2) the Passover in NT times with the Man [who, we are told, represents the Lamb].  So now we have the Lamb and the Man (i.e. presumed ?Son of Man [Adam]?).  But is this the end of the story?
 
This brief e-mail would suggest to this audience that we might have overlooked what is really the authentic scenario #1 with the event of Abraham and his son Isaac in Ge 22.  This would mean that now scenario #2 would be the theme of the Passover in Egypt, and that now #3 would be the theme of Yeshua in Palestine.  With this viewpoint, we have a 1-2-3 instead of just a 1-2.  Why do we start the whole comparison of the Passover with Egypt, when that was ?down the line? in the story that really began with the presumed ?sacrifice? in the days of Abraham and Isaac (see: Ge 22)?
 
Now, I don?t know if the Dialogue list is familiar with the story about Abraham actually having sacrificed Isaac, and that Isaac was resurrected later just before meeting with Rebeccah.  Vendyl Jones has published information on this, and one Rabbi has presented something like 33 evidences that this is so.  It does say that Abraham came down from the mountain, and returned home.  There is no mention of Isaac coming down from the mountain.  There are many other factors according to this proposed scenario.  When Abraham returned home, then Sarah died (see: V. Jones for the details of this story).  The point is that there was some kind of sacrifice situation (at least proposed for the conventional view) here in Ge 22 with Abraham and Isaac.  Whether Abraham sacrificed Isaac or not is beside the point.  At least we have a typological viewpoint of what followed with the sacrifice in Egypt and with Yeshua.
 
In short, what we have then is a sacrifice situation that is imposed by the story of Abraham and Isaac.  In fact, the counting of the time of the promise made to Abraham and Sarah for the one year following in Ge 17:19-26 covers the period of time from the birth of Isaac to the Exodus from Egypt (i.e. ??the selfsame day??).  This appears to be a key phase that connects Abraham and Isaac (as benchmarks) all the way down to the exact time of the Exodus and the 430 years to ??the selfsame day?? in Ex 12:40-41.  I can document this from notes that I received from Dr. Ernest L. Martin who taught this amazing parallel.  Hence, we have a serious interconnection between (#1) Abraham and Isaac as the original Passover scenario, and (#2) the Passover in Egypt.  I would suggest that there is also a serious interconnection with (#3) the Passover in 30 CE with Yeshua in Palestine.
 
In other words (and I will make this short), instead of viewing the Passover Lamb from the position only of (#1) the literal animal Lamb in Egypt, and (#2) the Man as a type of the Lamb in Palestine -- rather we also have an original theme that deals with a sacrificial situation in Palestine with Abraham and Isaac that is a Lamb [ram] / Man ? quite like the situation that precedes our assumed #1 & #2 ? whereas this #1 & #2 would actually become #2 & #3 in a cycle of 3 phases ? which must include the prior type of (#1) Abraham and Isaac at this precursor event of a type of a Passover Sacrifice.  Please note that other details of the 430 years and the selfsame day (along with the 430 years in Gal 3:17) can be supplied upon request.
 
I?m sorry this is so brief and to the point, but I did compose this rather quickly after a discussion with Clyde Brown.  I have told him about this research years ago, and he said that I should present it.  I think we need to realize that the Abraham & Isaac story is also a part of the Torah in Genesis ? and is prior to the follow-up account of the Passover symbolism found in Exodus.  First things first.  If we don?t incorporate (#1) the Man of Genesis in Isaac, with (#2) the Lamb of Exodus, then we may be prone to miss the absolute significance of (#3) the Man [as type of the Lamb] in the NT writings, who is represented byYeshua (some say: Yehoshuah).
 
All this is preliminary, experimental, and exploratory.  No dogmatism is intended.  We remain open-minded.
 
Thank you,
 
Gary
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/6491e51c/attachment.html 

From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com  Fri May  9 01:17:13 2008
From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 23:17:13 -0700
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion?
In-Reply-To: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <200805090617.m496HGGm006445@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/a274abe4/attachment.html 

From tmich33 at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 01:28:00 2008
From: tmich33 at bellsouth.net (Tamara Michael)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 06:28:00 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
In-Reply-To: <20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
References: <050820082242.16217.482381EA000EED0C00003F5922193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
Message-ID: <050920080628.22609.4823EEF0000054450000585122218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net>

Look what I found on the internet...
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p244.html

"Jewish commentary states ?God Himself commanded the offering of Isaac ? but would Abraham allow a mere angel to countermand his Maker??" "The commentary explains, ?the angel spoke to Abraham and Abraham refused to stop, saying God commanded, only He can stop me?" . The command not to injure Isaac meant that he must be offered whole and uninjured. The words can be interpreted as ?another ram? or ?an after-ram?). Tahat bno means under his son rather than instead of his son. "This thing" and "you did not spare your son" in Genesis 22:15-17 indicate that Isaac was sacrificed. The text reports that both Abraham and Isaac went up, but that only Abraham returned. Abraham went directly to Be?re Sheva. Genesis 23:2 reports that Sarah died in Kirjath-arba. Therefore Abraham could not face Sarah after sacrificing Isaac, and Sarah died of sorrow upon hearing that Isaac was dead.
Genesis 23:2 reports that Abraham "came" to mourn for Sarah, but no mention is made of Isaac. Genesis 24 describes obtaining a wife "for Isaac", that is, Abraham would raise up seed in Isaac?s name. There is no input of Isaac, but Rebecca is asked if she would agree. Rebecca was shocked to find Isaac alive, so she fell off her camel and covered her face. Isaac came from the way of the well lahay roi?, the well of Life of Him who sees me, which is a reference to his having been resurrected the reference of resurrection in Jewish prayers is in the present. Isaac was comforted after his mother?s death upon his marriage to Rebecca three years after the event, showing that he had just learned of it when he was resurrected. The Jewish practice of Kidush Hashem is based on the death and resurrection of Isaac.

Tammy
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/0367924b/attachment.html 

From shdennis at rogers.com  Fri May  9 05:22:09 2008
From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:22:09 -0300
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion?
In-Reply-To: <200805090617.m496HGGm006445@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
	<200805090617.m496HGGm006445@mail208c25.carrierzone.com>
Message-ID: <0B510972159244179EA9D40B50BFEB58@Beeblebrox>


  Dear brother Clyde,

  I, for one, second what Steve has written here.  Please prayerfully reconsider, your input is valuable, and I look forward to reading your posts.

  Shalom to you,
  Sharon





  Dear Clyde, (and All), 

  It seems to me that you are a most gentle soul as you are willing to take yourself out of any possibility to cause discomfort, much less hurt to anyone. Maybe I missed reading what you are referring to, but I do not see any hurt you caused.  In fact, if you leave the list participation, we will be really "hurt," i.e missing you.  You are a pillar of this list and you and your participation belong among us. We need all opinions, if we are to profit from this "dialogue."  Comparing and contrasting is part of our investigative process.  Whatever our own conclusions may be, the forbearance with each other is a main ingredient in the "glue" that binds us together. Even if some do not agree with your ideas, aren't we supposed to continue on other matters?  Even if you had said something hurtful, aren't we supposed to hash out our differences and remain respectfully in the forum of seekers as brothers?  Perhaps you may want to consider taking a breather from participation, as others have also chosen for various reasons. Then you will want to return to share in the quest for the Truth of HaShem. 

  Clyde, this list is a pioneering forum that the returnees of the Ten Tribes and all others who are coming out of the latter day "Babylonian captivity" are setting forth for others to copy. Your presence is needed. Please pray about it and reconsider. 

  I am calling on all who want Clyde back to participating when he is good and ready to say so.  

  Steve




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/55a04367/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  9 05:26:35 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 19:56:35 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - The Benediction
Message-ID: <8204D9023BB946B2A21016E06C1C499E@JessicaPC>

Shabbat Shalom from Adelaide,

While researching Rabbi E. Ben-Yehuda, I came across his take on the Priestly Benediction recorded in Numbers 6:24-26. It is part of his Baccalaureate Address in 1994.

May you all have a blessed Shabbat.

Jessica

One of the most beautiful benedictions in the repertory of inspiring words comes from my heritage, from the book of Numbers, chapter 6, verses 24 to 26. It is called "the Priestly Benediction," and it reads, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." It sounds splendid and wise, but most of us don't stop to think WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? Many say it is just wishful thinking, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you;" What if He does not? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;" What is "the shining face of God," and how is His grace manifest. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." This passage seems to be lost on us totally -- what does it mean, and why is it significant. Well, lets look at it again, and this time open ourselves to its message.

"May the Lord bless you" -- this is not a command, it is a petition. Allow the Lord to bless you. Each and every one of us is granted free will. Remember the words you learned in American history: "We hold these truths to be self evident... All men (and women, too) are created equal... endowed with certain inalienable rights... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." Also the right to worship (or not worship) as we please. Therefore, "May the Lord bless you" is a knock on the door of your selfhood. He is saying, "will you please let Me in?" And should you ask, "what for?" He answers immediately, "and keep you." He says, "if you let Me in, I shall watch over you." He will not take away your free will -- He will merely reinforce your power of positive creativity. How will He do that? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you," God has the quality of light; He will shine upon your doubts and your fears, driving away darkness and bringing enlightenment. Thus, "and be gracious to you;" His light will make you less heavy. His loftiness will elevate you. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you," His perfection will enter a common denominator with your shortcomings, and because his perfection is so overpowering, so infinite in its grandeur, your own imperfections will be diminished to the point where they will lose their effectiveness totally, and thus you shall be aware that God has become the source of your strength and the driving force in YOUR personality, making you complete - which is the true meaning of "and give you peace." 

Class of 1994, may your future be as bright as the sparkle in your eyes. May the Lord grant you your most profound ideals, and may each of you be a harbinger of the age when humanity unites in brotherhood that is derived from a recognition that we have all one father and we are, indeed, one family doing His will.

To which I say - Amen

J


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/b21ad785/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  9 06:26:57 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:26:57 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <d16.29414ebc.35558f01@aol.com>

Hey John:
 
I was not upset at you at all. You put your heart in the paper  and it was 
inappropriate for me to challenge the conclusions to which you  had come. That 
was my reason for the apology. Secondly, I'm definitely and  strongly on one 
side of the fence in the discussions, while some others, but not  all are on the 
other side of the fence. I could see it was heading toward  strong debate 
that could become heated. I am a quest on the dialogue that Ross  has set up, and 
since I'm unable in the area I'm in to get live streaming video,  and only 
have the short intro's that Ross is speaking on, I do not want to say  things 
that might contradict what Ross is teaching. I hope that explains my  concern,
 
Take care 
 
CB      



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/b6b97cb7/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 03:47:32 +0000
Size: 4411
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/b6b97cb7/attachment.mht 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  9 07:12:31 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 21:42:31 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
In-Reply-To: <c599cad60805081651q37f460c0ib8e58fbbd4c64e9c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com><5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
	<c599cad60805081651q37f460c0ib8e58fbbd4c64e9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9067D6964EA84F29A5B8FD4ED16F3692@JessicaPC>

Shabbat Shalom Chris and Amber,
I am about an hour's drive south east of Adelaide in the beautiful Adelaide Hills area. Where are your friends? and Where are you?
Shalom
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: chris fordham 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?


  Hello again Jessica.  We just realized you were in Austalia.  We have some Torah observant friends there!  What part are you from?  Chris and Amber


  On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:

    Shabbat Shalom Everyone,
    And what a glorious Shabbat it is. The sun is shining, the birds are singing, it is a crisp Autumn morning here in South Australia. 
    Have a wonderful day.
    Blessings from Jessica

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
      To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
      Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:25 AM
      Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?


        
      Shalom Y'all,

          Okay, today I have missed a single ray of sunshine - so where is Betty hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss you!!

          Don't let 'life' keep you too busy (yes, I know, I should listen to myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that you share on this list is indispensable - sorry, no days off for you!!

          Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one filled with relaxation and rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay - don't forget!!  :-)

          Love ya,
                Hanoch the Lil Lion of Judah
      Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...









--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      _______________________________________________




    _______________________________________________






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/0b3453d4/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  9 07:34:21 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:34:21 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <cfc.32c52fee.35559ecd@aol.com>

Hey Clyde - 
 
    Firstly, I have yet to have the  pleasure of hearing any of Ross' 
teachings, so I have no clue if he and I agree  on hundreds of topics.  You and I 
have disagreed too, SO WHAT?  If we  all agreed, there would be no point, 
whatsoever, for this list to exist.   My friend, if I may make a suggestion - when 
you find something you disagree  with, either state YOUR case, or just "let it 
be (no, I'm not going to start  singing..that would only make people laugh!)."
 
    This list (in my opinion) isn't so  much just about what we can 
share...but learning to read a different opinion,  and the rationale behind it....
 
    Clyde, post what you can, when you  can, but let's keep the channels of 
communication OPEN, okay?
 
        Shabbat  Shalom,
                    Hanoch the Lil Lion of  Judah



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/cf647a56/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Fri May  9 07:40:56 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:40:56 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
References: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <11208DBA965C4BB6AC831E7D93E339A1@sherryPC>

Dear Clyde,
    I find your input very profitable to the search for truth and brings a balance to the dialogue. Please reconsider withdrawing any further comments .I feel you are a valuable contributor and would miss hearing your viewpoint.   

Blessings,
Sherry    
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 4:34 PM
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


  Hi John:

  Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for comments, let me begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and God is redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and redeem. You mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and with that I agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and redeem me? This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't question whether or not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the question by what method does God redeem? Or framed in another way what do we learn about blood covenants in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed in the Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when God would no longer require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text? 

  Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood offered blood sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according to the Hebrew Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself do I have any textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 
  exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware that God did not speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings. But when they broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for, and where do we find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask myself, if all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no need of blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and cannot find a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being atoned through blood sacrifice. But I may be missing the very multiple texts that completely wipe away blood atonement. And so, I'm back to the question do we need the one time shed blood of Yehsua that once and for all eliminates the need for bulls and goats blood sacrifice for atonement? 

  Sorry to ask these hard questions John, you have a heart of gold for HaShem. 

  CB

  CB





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008 5:23 PM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/9bee6e65/attachment.html 

From shcole1 at cox.net  Fri May  9 07:44:44 2008
From: shcole1 at cox.net (sherry cole)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:44:44 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - The Benediction
In-Reply-To: <8204D9023BB946B2A21016E06C1C499E@JessicaPC>
References: <8204D9023BB946B2A21016E06C1C499E@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <DDF469BD1967477BBF7406AFE14D8DFE@sherryPC>

Thank you Jessica,
This was most uplifting,

Early Shabbat Shalom,
Sherry
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jessica 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 5:26 AM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - The Benediction


  Shabbat Shalom from Adelaide,

  While researching Rabbi E. Ben-Yehuda, I came across his take on the Priestly Benediction recorded in Numbers 6:24-26. It is part of his Baccalaureate Address in 1994.

  May you all have a blessed Shabbat.

  Jessica

  One of the most beautiful benedictions in the repertory of inspiring words comes from my heritage, from the book of Numbers, chapter 6, verses 24 to 26. It is called "the Priestly Benediction," and it reads, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." It sounds splendid and wise, but most of us don't stop to think WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? Many say it is just wishful thinking, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you;" What if He does not? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;" What is "the shining face of God," and how is His grace manifest. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." This passage seems to be lost on us totally -- what does it mean, and why is it significant. Well, lets look at it again, and this time open ourselves to its message.

  "May the Lord bless you" -- this is not a command, it is a petition. Allow the Lord to bless you. Each and every one of us is granted free will. Remember the words you learned in American history: "We hold these truths to be self evident... All men (and women, too) are created equal... endowed with certain inalienable rights... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." Also the right to worship (or not worship) as we please. Therefore, "May the Lord bless you" is a knock on the door of your selfhood. He is saying, "will you please let Me in?" And should you ask, "what for?" He answers immediately, "and keep you." He says, "if you let Me in, I shall watch over you." He will not take away your free will -- He will merely reinforce your power of positive creativity. How will He do that? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you," God has the quality of light; He will shine upon your doubts and your fears, driving away darkness and bringing enlightenment. Thus, "and be gracious to you;" His light will make you less heavy. His loftiness will elevate you. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you," His perfection will enter a common denominator with your shortcomings, and because his perfection is so overpowering, so infinite in its grandeur, your own imperfections will be diminished to the point where they will lose their effectiveness totally, and thus you shall be aware that God has become the source of your strength and the driving force in YOUR personality, making you complete - which is the true meaning of "and give you peace." 

  Class of 1994, may your future be as bright as the sparkle in your eyes. May the Lord grant you your most profound ideals, and may each of you be a harbinger of the age when humanity unites in brotherhood that is derived from a recognition that we have all one father and we are, indeed, one family doing His will.

  To which I say - Amen

  J





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  No virus found in this incoming message.
  Checked by AVG. 
  Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008 5:23 PM
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/e22a5c25/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  9 07:51:19 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 22:21:19 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D3F651DAC8F64857B9F0227D1ECCBBF1@JessicaPC>

Shabbat Shalom Clyde,
It can be very hard to ask hard questions, and it can be very hard to hear hard questions. But Clyde, if the questions are not asked, then how can we seekers of truth discover what is truth and what is error? I hope you reconsider your decision to discontinue posting to the Dialogue.
Shalom
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:12 PM
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


  Dear John:

  I want to apologize in how I responded to your paper. In moving into these deep subjects and issues it is easy to be controversial .I have been on this journey for 50 years now, and the last thing I wish to do is hurt one of  God's little ones. I will continue to read the posts, but I think it is best for all that I discontinue to post my views. Therefore this will be my last post.  May our great God bless you all

  Take care dear ones

  Clyde





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/58fef32f/attachment.html 

From Correim at gninc.ca  Sun May  4 16:06:37 2008
From: Correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer)
Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 16:06:37 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 70 questions attachment
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC><1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC><BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>	<481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <481E255D.90108@gninc.ca>

Maybe a slow learner like me can learn something from the answers to 
these questions, so anyone please be quite free to share your thoughts, 
as well as to the answers I gave to this  Pastor's questions. As you 
will notice even though I quoted out of the New Testament, I had quite a 
negative impression of the N.T. If I have thrown out the baby with the 
dirty bath water, and did not notice it, I could have something to 
digest for a while. I hope no one gets offended by what I write.

Cornie



Pat Robbins wrote:
> Hi Cornie,
>  
> Yes, please do send me the entire file (as opposed to the shortened 
> version).  If you could send it in an attachment, that would be 
> great.  You may send it to my personal address if you so chose, or 
> send it through the List, since an attachment would not tie up space 
> on the Dialogue site.  That way everyone could look at it and save it 
> to their computers if they wish.  Am looking very forward to seeing 
> it.  I rather think that we have very much that we agree upon, but 
> will certainly write you concerning anything I question.
>  
> Thank you so much, Cornie, and blessing be upon you and your family,
>  
> Pat
>
> *From:* Cornie Reimer <mailto:Correim at gninc.ca>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
> Pat and Jessica, I really admire your sincere search for the real 
> truth. And this goes to you others as well. And Pat,  should you get 
> to read my 70 plus questions, then please don't be shy to point out 
> how you would differ. I am open to learn the from any source. As soon 
> as you let me know what you want concerning those 70 questions I will 
> send them to you. I have them in a shortened file of 5 or so pages, 
> but they don't necessarily make sense without the 61 pages they belong 
> to. Do you want me to send them to you personally in an attachment or  
> in a couple of e-mails. I don't have them divided into chapters. And 
> now I may even look at them in a different light. I made a lengthy 6 
> page introduction. But all of this on the condition that I had no 
> confidence in the N.T., (accept of course what agrees with the Tanach)
>
> . The Pastor and me got along fine. Their is no bitterness or 
> harshness if I remember it correct throughout our 1 - 1/2 years of 
> dialogue. He was quite confident from the start that he would point it 
> out to me through the Tanach , or Old Testament that I needed to come 
> back to Christianity to be saved, and that it took a sacrifice of 
> blood to be saved, he referred to Leviticus 16, (and I can not find it 
> there so quick what it also says), I know it is there somewhere. It is 
> true as he quotes, but at the same time it says that If they are to 
> poor to be able to bring 2 turtle doves, for a sin offering, it 
> suffices to bring a measure of meal, (no blood in it) for a sin offering.
>
> I believe and  agree it takes repentance to become free from sin. It 
> is found in the Talmud (yoma 86b) that he who repents out of fear of 
> punishment or divine retribution, his intentional sins are transformed 
> into unintentional accidental sins, and he who repents out of his love 
> for HaShem his intentional sins are transformed into merits.
>
> I look forward to the message this evening from Ross, although I have 
> to admit I did not quite see what exactly he wanted to tell us, or 
> what he referred to. Much of it was a bit new to me at this point.
>
> Cornie
>
> Pat Robbins wrote:
>> Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this 
>> "spiritual" place to wait until the end for his time to return, I 
>> immediately think of Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a 
>> whirlwind while still in his physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We 
>> greatly anticipate Elijah's return, and since HaSHem is the same 
>> yesterday, today and tomorrow, He could conceivably have done 
>> something similar in regard to Yeshua.  
>>  
>> I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, 
>> but now that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why 
>> not?"  There is precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form. 
>>  
>> On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, 
>> then his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and 
>> bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and 
>> there would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not 
>> there.  As I understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not 
>> added until a year after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to 
>> place the remaining bones into their box.  And, of course, because 
>> there have been times when N.T. editors appear to have reworked the 
>> original writings to accord with official dogma, as opposed to actual 
>> truth, I have had great difficulty wanting to look at it at all.
>>  
>> Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the 
>> N.T. are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the 
>> facts buried therein while exposing every lie.  And may the name and 
>> memory of Yeshua be vindicated.
>>  
>> Blessings to you,
>>  
>> Pat 
>>
>> *From:* Jessica <mailto:jessley at eftel.net.au>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>>
>> /John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I 
>> don't understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced 
>> with another (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach 
>> our Creator directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and 
>> there has never arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, 
>> then why can't we learn to live the same way? According to King David 
>> (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30 & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us 
>> the strength to be perfect. Is it so hard to live a Torah lifestyle? 
>> Would HaShem command us to live in a way that we would find 
>> impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of interpretation 
>> that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle with the 
>> Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the 
>> yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)/
>> /_We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we 
>> lived._ Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and 
>> return to Torah and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather 
>> than in the 'blood' of another human being. (After all it was HaShem 
>> Himself who provided the 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was 
>> HaShem Himself who provided the ram in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy 
>> struggling with the concept of a personal 'intercessor' who died, 
>> came back to life then went 'somewhere' where we can't follow yet, 
>> and will return when the time is ripe.  Even though my teacher friend 
>> has tried to explain it so many times, the idea just doesn't want to 
>> stick. The concept just raises another question in my head - that "if 
>> G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then where 
>> has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly 
>> tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical 
>> form ???? I'm confused./
>> /Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all 
>> the people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each 
>> individual to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I 
>> believe it was for the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the 
>> Most Holy Place'.  This is the one time that it was essential for the 
>> people to be of  'one mind and one heart' - ie: purified & united - 
>> for the sake of the whole nation. /
>> /There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the 
>> plural sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and 
>> teaches and administers HaShem's justice is required for national 
>> unity and the unity with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with 
>> (alongside) the King of the Universe. /
>> /I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as o//ur 
>> 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and 
>> the others in this Dialogue to travel with./
>> /May HaShem Bless your search,/
>> /Jessica/
>> // 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net <mailto:carlson_john at bellsouth.net>>
>> To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
>> <mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>>
>> >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may 
>> never have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know 
>> Him tha please HaShem.
>> >
>> > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre 
>> research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here 
>> is my point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer 
>> believe he is (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one 
>> ditched the man/G-d savior aspect ya beed to know what takes its 
>> place.  Not getting sat answers
>> >
>> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> />
>> >/
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG. 
>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1412 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 4:34 PM
>>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. 
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 03/05/2008 11:22 AM
>   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/7a1467a9/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: New copy Pastor Toews.doc
Type: application/x-msword
Size: 396800 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/7a1467a9/attachment.bin 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Sun May  4 21:18:46 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 22:18:46 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Fwd: A perspective on Paul
Message-ID: <d2e.1ef6a223.354fc886@aol.com>

Shalom to all:
 
On 4/25/08 Ross forwarded a draft of mine that is very much a study still  in 
process. This means it is subject to change. I value the input from  others 
where they may or may not agree on different points. Iron  sharpens iron, and I 
may have missed the mark here or there. I'm open to  different perspectives, 
but thus far I haven't received one critique. I thought  I would send the 
draft again with hope some of you that have a perspective on  the issues 
discussed, might take a look and inform me where you agree and where  you disagree.
 
Thank you in advance
 
Clyde 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/eb4fa434/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: rndavar at aol.com
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: A perspective on Paul
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:44:59 -0400
Size: 181028
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080504/eb4fa434/attachment.mht 

From calbfordham at gmail.com  Thu May  8 18:22:25 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 19:22:25 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Question from the Book of Morman
In-Reply-To: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>
References: <c05.369f4b5c.354e8ffd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805081622h7be78ecfw549d1f3552cebbd9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello again Hanoch:

During our time of "searching different faiths" Chris and I received a Book
of Morman.  Can you imagine that I DID read the entire book?  I love to
read.  I read about a book a day!  I see that someone answered your
question, so not sure if we can explain any better than that.  While Joseph
was in Egypt he saw the Nephites in vision.  He prophesied of Joseph Smith,
the latter day seer; of Moses, who would deliver Israel; and of the coming
forth of the Book of Mormon.  Chris has copied 2 Nephi Chapter 3.  Hope you
can read it.  Hope this helps!  Shalom, Amber

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:05 AM, <YoungBarzel at aol.com> wrote:

>  Shavua tov L'Kulchem,
>
>     Right before Shabbat I got a note from a friend of mine asking for my
> take on a verse in the Book of Morman.   Since I don't have one of those
> ("Sorry, I just have 9 different New Testaments, no Book of Morman..."),
> could someone tell me what they think of the following:
>
>  look up 2 Nephi 2 (in some versions it is 2 Nephi 3) where Lehi speaks to
> his last born son, Joseph.  Note especially the verses pertaining to fruit
> of the loins of Joseph and Judah together WRITING to the "confounding of
> doctrines, laying down of contentions, and establishing peace between "the
> fruit of thy loins" and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in
> the Last Days ..."
>
>     I will try to pick up a copy of the Book of Morman soon, maybe from
> one of those smiling LDS guys, who want to 'save' my Jewish soul.....but in
> the meantime, can anyone shed some light on this, and I'll pass it along?
>
>     Toda!
>             * Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah
> *
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/75ab0d1d/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: scan0001.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 878991 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/75ab0d1d/attachment.pdf 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: scan0002.pdf
Type: application/pdf
Size: 795812 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080508/75ab0d1d/attachment-0001.pdf 

From jid at westnet.com.au  Fri May  9 06:56:42 2008
From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 21:56:42 +1000
Subject: [Dialogue] - Shir La'ma'alot - Yosef Karduner (Tehilim 121)
Message-ID: <48243BFA.2060205@westnet.com.au>

Shabbat Shalom,
                         my apologies for my absence over the last 
couple of days, especially to you Cornie as I had promised to come back 
to you. Unfortunately I have dad a very demanding week at work. I have 
just got in for Shabbat.
                         Just as a change of pace, please everyone take 
a deep breath and Bless HaShem that his mercy endureth forever.
I am sending you all my deepest love for a Shabbat Shalom. Please enjoy 
a musical rendition of Psalm 121. This psalm has a special significance 
for me. Some very close friends of mine who now live on the Gold Coast 
of Australia came from a Jewish settlement in Gush Katif. As you know 
these dear people were expelled from the Gush in August 2005. The story 
another time.
                        However , this was the psalm that they sang when 
the whole community, men, women, elderly and children marched 11 
kilometers to the Yisraeli border dressed in sack cloth with the Torah 
at the head of the procession. Anguish and tears. Their past and present 
destroyed , their future uncertain but their faith in HaShem reinforced. 
HaShem led them out and HaShem will lead them back in.
                       Loy I have a treat for you, you frustrated 
architect you. I think building 5 daughters in 11 years is far more 
admirable than my building palaces for Pharaoh. Well done. Enjoy the 
attachment on the beautiful synagogue of Budapest to the.inspiring music 
of Avinu Malcheinu ( Our Father Our King) sung by Barbara , the lady, 
Streisand.
                       Keep up your prayers for Naftali ben Gilo. May 
Hashem refresh you all over the Shabbat.

Shabbat Shalom and Baruch HaShem.
Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
JOE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNpErJ_C5k


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: BarbaraStreisandBudapest(AUDIO).pps
Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint
Size: 3049472 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/76845490/attachment.pps 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  9 08:08:52 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:08:52 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Your prayers have been answered!!
Message-ID: <bf5.312e9889.3555a6e4@aol.com>

 
 
 
 
Shalom to all -  
This is an update on the boy  we've been praying for -  
Hanoch  the Lil Lion of  Judah 
 
 
 
16. INFO4U:"" urgent tehillim"" etc etc 
Posted by: "Judy Freedman" _judyfreedman at judyfreed_ 
(mailto:judyfreedman at gmail.com)   judyfreedman2002 
Date: Fri May 9, 2008 12:05 am ((PDT)) 

There are  rumours going around about Naftali ben Gila who was wounded in the 
Mercaz Harav  Kook attack. 
These rumours are harmful and cruel. Naftali is getting better  and does not 
want Tehillim said for him. My son learns with him and visits him  regularly. 
Naftali is B'h out of hospital but is undergoing rehabilitation.  
He is in high spirits and is considering going back to school for his exams.  
The e-mails about him are psychologically destructive. 

I know that  everyone who gets these messages only wishes to help by adding 
his/her heartful  tfillot. But in these days of e-mail, messages fly round and 
there is no way of  curbing them. 

Please pass this notice on to everyone who is involved.  You can leave my 
address on the message. 
May all our prayers be answered as  quickly as those for Naftali, Baruch 
Hashem, were answered 
Judy Freedman  











**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/bd726765/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  9 08:20:10 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:20:10 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <c28.3473c97a.3555a98a@aol.com>

Dear Pat:
 
I am never offended by your posts. It is clear you have done a great deal  of 
study and we are all better informed through your posts. I hope my last email 
 to John explained my concern. But on the other hand I felt terrible after  
confronting the conclusions John had come to, but perhaps I over-reacted. When  
we journey into the deep issues of the Most High it is bound to get  
controversial, and to some friends of mine not on the dialogue I'm a very  
controversial person. When I go after their view of the virgin birth and  demonstrate how 
it contradicts the genealogy, and the genecology contradicts the  birth 
narratives the conversation gets quite heated. I do not think that is  a problem 
here on this dialogue, but other issues might, such as the shed blood  issue, 
and do we need it? I argue that we do, but I do not wish to offend those  who 
think we don't. But if I'm not offensive to you dear folks then, OK, lets  
dialogue and let the chips fall where they may. Thank you Pat you are a dear  soul.
 
Take care
 
CB.       



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/8674929c/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Pat Robbins" <patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 23:44:47 -0400
Size: 4866
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/8674929c/attachment.mht 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 08:35:19 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 13:35:19 +0000
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <1285091708-1210305299-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-64922924-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com>
	<1285091708-1210305299-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-64922924-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <050920081335.15833.48245317000263CF00003DD922243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

I must second all those who request that you continue to provide your input, Clyde. I find the point/counterpoint important to the learning process. For far too long I sat in a pew nodding my head in dumb agreement with whatever 'the leader' had to say. Then, as with John, the questions came... for which I was often offered the left foot of fellowship out the door.

That we can state our views in this open forum without fear of scorn and ridicule is a miracle in and of itself. The wealth of knowledge and experience you possess is invaluable to us all. Not all that I espouse meets with agreement, but it is respected and evaluated in the true spirit of dialogue and with a genuine desire to 'hear'.  This is an incredible breakthrough, and must be carefully fostered by all involved. 

Please keep on speaking your heart. HaSHeM knows your motives, and as His children, we too recognize His handiwork in your offerings. Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is HaSHeM! Psalms 144:15

Glenn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/9f1c6062/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  9 08:41:05 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:11:05 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] Your prayers have been answered!!
In-Reply-To: <bf5.312e9889.3555a6e4@aol.com>
References: <bf5.312e9889.3555a6e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CADCAA20E1E9486BB00640FC9961D9DF@JessicaPC>

Thank you Hanoch,
I'm so pleased and relieved to know that Naftali's life is not now in peril. To repeat Judy's sentiment, "May all our prayers be answered as quickly as those for Naftali, Baruch HaShem, were answered", and all of Israel be saved.
Shabbat Shalom
Jessica

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: YoungBarzel at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 10:38 PM
  Subject: [Dialogue] Your prayers have been answered!!


  Shalom to all - 

          This is an update on the boy we've been praying for - 

                                    Hanoch  the Lil Lion of Judah

  16. INFO4U:"" urgent tehillim"" etc etc 
  Posted by: "Judy Freedman" judyfreedman at gmail.com judyfreedman2002 
  Date: Fri May 9, 2008 12:05 am ((PDT)) 

  There are rumours going around about Naftali ben Gila who was wounded in the Mercaz Harav Kook attack. 
  These rumours are harmful and cruel. Naftali is getting better and does not want Tehillim said for him. My son learns with him and visits him regularly. Naftali is B'h out of hospital but is undergoing rehabilitation. 
  He is in high spirits and is considering going back to school for his exams. The e-mails about him are psychologically destructive. 

  I know that everyone who gets these messages only wishes to help by adding his/her heartful tfillot. But in these days of e-mail, messages fly round and there is no way of curbing them. 

  Please pass this notice on to everyone who is involved. You can leave my address on the message. 
  May all our prayers be answered as quickly as those for Naftali, Baruch Hashem, were answered 
  Judy Freedman 



     








------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/d6721281/attachment.html 

From jessley at eftel.net.au  Fri May  9 08:46:08 2008
From: jessley at eftel.net.au (Jessica)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:16:08 +0930
Subject: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c28.3473c97a.3555a98a@aol.com>
References: <c28.3473c97a.3555a98a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5F401AA543CD4928BCE7473F92EA87B8@JessicaPC>

Mazel Tov - good decision.
Shalom
Jessica
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 10:50 PM
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


  Dear Pat:

  I am never offended by your posts. It is clear you have done a great deal of study and we are all better informed through your posts. I hope my last email to John explained my concern. But on the other hand I felt terrible after confronting the conclusions John had come to, but perhaps I over-reacted. When we journey into the deep issues of the Most High it is bound to get controversial, and to some friends of mine not on the dialogue I'm a very controversial person. When I go after their view of the virgin birth and demonstrate how it contradicts the genealogy, and the genecology contradicts the birth narratives the conversation gets quite heated. I do not think that is a problem here on this dialogue, but other issues might, such as the shed blood issue, and do we need it? I argue that we do, but I do not wish to offend those who think we don't. But if I'm not offensive to you dear folks then, OK, lets dialogue and let the chips fall where they may. Thank you Pat you are a dear soul.

  Take care

  CB.       





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/f431cac0/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Fri May  9 08:51:16 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:51:16 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
References: <c36.2bc296d7.3555140e@aol.com><1285091708-1210305299-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-64922924-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<050920081335.15833.48245317000263CF00003DD922243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <005601c8b1db$c14e7dc0$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Beautifully spoken Glenn!!!
Shabbot Shalom to everyone....may we rest in peace and unity.  
Loy Leorah
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 8:35 AM
  Subject: Re: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


  I must second all those who request that you continue to provide your input, Clyde. I find the point/counterpoint important to the learning process. For far too long I sat in a pew nodding my head in dumb agreement with whatever 'the leader' had to say. Then, as with John, the questions came... for which I was often offered the left foot of fellowship out the door.

  That we can state our views in this open forum without fear of scorn and ridicule is a miracle in and of itself. The wealth of knowledge and experience you possess is invaluable to us all. Not all that I espouse meets with agreement, but it is respected and evaluated in the true spirit of dialogue and with a genuine desire to 'hear'.  This is an incredible breakthrough, and must be carefully fostered by all involved. 

  Please keep on speaking your heart. HaSHeM knows your motives, and as His children, we too recognize His handiwork in your offerings. Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is HaSHeM! Psalms 144:15

  Glenn


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/34540454/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri May  9 08:53:19 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 09:53:19 -0400
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
References: <c27.36fe8929.3554cbdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS302C92CD3417055C05DC0BAD30@phx.gbl>

Hi Clyde,

Dear Clyde,

Below is your response to John's work, "Conclusion."  I can see nothing inflammatory in your response.  On the contrary, I see your love and concern.  The issue which you address (sacrifice) should be addressed.  There IS an answer, and we must find and explore it.  To stop short of doing so is to stop short of following hard after G-d!  

You have questioned, "Are we informed in the Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when G-d would no longer require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text?"  And you further ask, "And so I must ask myself, if all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me I have no need of blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? ...I may be missing the very multiple texts that completely wipe away blood atonement."  

Clyde, we MUST work together and find the answers to these questions.  WE ARE THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND WE MUST RETURN TO OUR FATHER.  The hard questions must be addressed.  Take a good, long look at those you see on this List.  We are not cowards, and we are not confrontational. (We may bear some similarities to the old TV series, "F-Troop," but  you've got to admit, we are entertaining!!!)   

I truly believe that anger is nothing but fear.  There is no need for us to fear the answers, but to embrace them.  The answers lead us to the Ancient Path.  The Ancient Path leads to HaSHem, our Father, our G-d, and the G-d of our fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Let's continue, dear brother,

Pat

From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 5:34 PM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


Hi John:

Thank you for your heartfelt paper.  Since you asked for comments, let me begin with what we most certainly agree on. God is Savior, and God is redeemer.But then I must ask myself by what method does God save and redeem. You mention you do not need the shed blood of Yeshua to save you and with that I agree. But do I need the shed blood of Yeshua for God to save me and redeem me? This sets the question in a different framework. It doesn't question whether or not God is savior and redeemer, but does ask the question by what method does God redeem? Or framed in another way what do we learn about blood covenants in the Hebrew Bible? And are we informed in the Hebrew Scriptures that there was coming a time when God would no longer require blood atonement?  Can anyone quote the text? 

Certainly as long as the second Temple stood the priesthood offered blood sacrifices for sin, and apparently they did so because according to the Hebrew Scriptures God required it. And so again  I must ask myself do I have any textual proof in the Hebrew Bible that 
exempts sacrifice and blood for atonement  I'm very aware that God did not speak to the children of Israel about sacrifice and offerings. But when they broke his covenant sacrifice and blood  was then asked for, and where do we find that God says, no more blood sacrifice? And so I must ask myself, if all I have is the Hebrew Bible, where does it inform me, I have no need of blood sacrifice for atoning for my sins? So this is where I'm stuck, and cannot find a scripture in the Hebrew Bible that excepts me from being atoned through blood sacrifice. But I may be missing the very multiple texts that completely wipe away blood atonement. And so, I'm back to the question do we need the one time shed blood of Yehsua that once and for all eliminates the need for bulls and goats blood sacrifice for atonement? 

Sorry to ask these hard questions John, you have a heart of gold for HaShem. 

CB

CB





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/8af564d5/attachment.html 

From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  9 09:07:26 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:07:26 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] For John - 
Message-ID: <c62.2ed9a48d.3555b49e@aol.com>

Hey John - 
 
    There's something you need to know, regardless of  whatever conclusions 
you've come to, or whatever they might be at some other  time; we're still, all 
family pal - and it's been WAY too long  since we've had that MEGA family 
reunion...over 3,000 years.....
 
    And you know me, I'd luv ya, whatever you  wrote!  :-)  Listen, anyone 
cool enough to wear a Spiderman shirt is  MY KIND OF GUY!!  You do realize that 
'Peter Parker' is supposed to live on  Woodhaven Boulevard, which is all of 5 
blocks from me....  :-)  About  the same distance I hope we'll be living from 
each other in  Jerusalem.......
 
    Now, all you need to do is teach me how to play  guitar....
 
    B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael,
                Hanoch  The Lil Lion of  Judah
 
    



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/4d8e27c5/attachment.html 

From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com  Fri May  9 09:26:15 2008
From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:26:15 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - The Benediction
In-Reply-To: <8204D9023BB946B2A21016E06C1C499E@JessicaPC>
References: <8204D9023BB946B2A21016E06C1C499E@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <BLU125-DS27C712EE6B77EEFED6F54BAD30@phx.gbl>

Fabulous!!!  Thank you so much, Jessica. ~ Pat


From: Jessica 
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:26 AM
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
Subject: [Dialogue] Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - The Benediction


Shabbat Shalom from Adelaide,

While researching Rabbi E. Ben-Yehuda, I came across his take on the Priestly Benediction recorded in Numbers 6:24-26. It is part of his Baccalaureate Address in 1994.

May you all have a blessed Shabbat.

Jessica

One of the most beautiful benedictions in the repertory of inspiring words comes from my heritage, from the book of Numbers, chapter 6, verses 24 to 26. It is called "the Priestly Benediction," and it reads, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." It sounds splendid and wise, but most of us don't stop to think WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN? Many say it is just wishful thinking, "May the Lord bless you, and keep you;" What if He does not? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;" What is "the shining face of God," and how is His grace manifest. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." This passage seems to be lost on us totally -- what does it mean, and why is it significant. Well, lets look at it again, and this time open ourselves to its message.

"May the Lord bless you" -- this is not a command, it is a petition. Allow the Lord to bless you. Each and every one of us is granted free will. Remember the words you learned in American history: "We hold these truths to be self evident... All men (and women, too) are created equal... endowed with certain inalienable rights... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." Also the right to worship (or not worship) as we please. Therefore, "May the Lord bless you" is a knock on the door of your selfhood. He is saying, "will you please let Me in?" And should you ask, "what for?" He answers immediately, "and keep you." He says, "if you let Me in, I shall watch over you." He will not take away your free will -- He will merely reinforce your power of positive creativity. How will He do that? "The Lord make his face to shine upon you," God has the quality of light; He will shine upon your doubts and your fears, driving away darkness and bringing enlightenment. Thus, "and be gracious to you;" His light will make you less heavy. His loftiness will elevate you. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you," His perfection will enter a common denominator with your shortcomings, and because his perfection is so overpowering, so infinite in its grandeur, your own imperfections will be diminished to the point where they will lose their effectiveness totally, and thus you shall be aware that God has become the source of your strength and the driving force in YOUR personality, making you complete - which is the true meaning of "and give you peace." 

Class of 1994, may your future be as bright as the sparkle in your eyes. May the Lord grant you your most profound ideals, and may each of you be a harbinger of the age when humanity unites in brotherhood that is derived from a recognition that we have all one father and we are, indeed, one family doing His will.

To which I say - Amen

J





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/dab6c966/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  9 09:41:09 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:41:09 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
Message-ID: <cc6.2e6ec0e8.3555bc85@aol.com>

Dear friends:
 
Human sacrifice from the wrong perspective I think  can lead to the thought 
of ancient human sacrifices. I would  like to take a different perspective on 
what the sacrifice of Yehsua and  his shed blood might mean. Perhaps the 
example of the Maccabees who rose up and  formed an army against the Syrian 
overlords have a relevance to the issue.  Although the Syrian army was defeated, many 
on the side of  the Maccabees  sacrificed their lives for the greater cause. 
Now  that is human sacrifice but in no way shape or manner as the ancient 
pagans  sacrificed their own to their gods.  Yeshua stood up for the greater cause, 
 and the greater cause was the correct way to serve his God and our God, and 
his  neighbor and as our neighbor as our self. In the process of that he was 
turned  over to the Romans for crucifixion, and that caused blood to flow. 
 
Now, I do not propose to have all the answers, and why the martyrs who  stand 
up and give their lives as a sacrifice for the cause of God and His truth,  
but that seems to prove something to God, like, now I know you will obey my  
Word. Perhaps as a son of Adam Yeshua was called upon like no other son of Adam  
to stand up and sacrifice his life for the truth of God, as so many martyrs  
before him. Then Perhaps God received his blood he shed as well as the curse 
of  death through sin and placed it on him who had no sin. But to say as many  
Christians do, we are saved by his death, I think is wrong-headed. I think  
Yeshua cleared the way and gave us reconciliation with God, and what Yeshua  
accomplished on behalf of God, that no other human being could do, might be our  
focus. Tell my brothers Yehsua said - I go to my Father and your Father,  and 
my God and your God. And so perhaps the shed blood of Yeshua had a  meaning 
for God, that perhaps we are yet to fully comprehend. I don't know if  any of 
this makes sense to you, but perhaps by and by as we overcome we will  
understand these great mystery's of God.
 
But I would say, that many of you have paid a price, a sacrifice if you  will 
in standing up for the truth of God. Losing family and friends who see you  
as heretics to orthodox Christianity. Some of you perhaps have found those of  
family who will no longer call you family. There is a price to pay when we 
take  up the cause of God and his truth, and perhaps Yeshua lead the way and 
opened up  the door that we might all follow in his  footsteps.    
 
CB  
 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/a78bd00b/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 09:58:08 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:58:08 +0000
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
In-Reply-To: <d16.29414ebc.35558f01@aol.com>
References: <d16.29414ebc.35558f01@aol.com>
Message-ID: <546459541-1210345577-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1454463244-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Hey Clyde,

Man I'm so glad you responded, I was really worried.

I'm glad it was nothing that I said that upset you.  I was fully expecting challenges to what I wrote, it is how I learn.  The question you posed about sacrifices was excellent, I just don't know how to answer it beyond what I replied right now.

As for heated argument, that is possible but that is a large part of the reason I took a break.  It's like when you write an email in an emotional response to someone you hold it in draft until you can think less emotionally.  That's what I had to do when I took aa break.  Sit back and percolate for awhile.

One of the cardinal rules of this dialogue is respect.  We can't let our emotions get the best of us or the search will be hampered.  We'll surely not agree on everything, it's how we disagree that matters.

As for the information, I will personally copy Ross's (or any other bitstream you need) to CD and mail it to you if necessary.  That is only a technical problem easily solved.

Thanks for coming back, I am much relieved.  If you need to take a break we will all understand.  But please don't leave us.

Love and blessings in HaShem.


Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com

Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 07:26:57 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.


Hey John: 
? 
I was not upset at you at?all. You put your heart in the paper and?it was inappropriate for me to challenge the conclusions to which you had come. That was my reason for the apology.?Secondly, I'm definitely and strongly on one side of the fence in the discussions, while some others, but not all are on the other side of the fence. I could?see it was heading toward strong debate that could become heated. I am a quest on the dialogue that Ross has set up, and since I'm unable in the area I'm in to get live streaming video, and only have the short intro's that Ross is speaking on, I do not want to say things that might contradict what Ross is teaching. I hope that explains my concern, 
? 
Take care 
? 
CB??????




----------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> ._______________________________________________


From calbfordham at gmail.com  Fri May  9 10:17:16 2008
From: calbfordham at gmail.com (chris fordham)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:17:16 -0400
Subject: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
In-Reply-To: <9067D6964EA84F29A5B8FD4ED16F3692@JessicaPC>
References: <cee.325fcd57.354c9373@aol.com>
	<5FBB7C9B50E042BFA3344AD1312E83B7@JessicaPC>
	<c599cad60805081651q37f460c0ib8e58fbbd4c64e9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<9067D6964EA84F29A5B8FD4ED16F3692@JessicaPC>
Message-ID: <c599cad60805090817r536b5609l4c285a9d255fffca@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Jessica!  Our friends live in Queensland, a suburb of Brisbane called
Eagleby.  Are you near there?  Chris and I are in South Carolina and he
works in North Carolina.  We are on the Stateline.  Maybe you could get
together with them and midrash!  Moshe and Ally (Alberta) Kale are their
names.  Do you know them?

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:

>  *Shabbat Shalom Chris and Amber,*
> *I am about an hour's drive south east of Adelaide in the beautiful
> Adelaide Hills area. Where are your friends? and Where are you?*
> *Shalom*
> *Jessica*
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* chris fordham <calbfordham at gmail.com>
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>   *Sent:* Friday, May 09, 2008 9:21 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
>
> Hello again Jessica.  We just realized you were in Austalia.  We have some
> Torah observant friends there!  What part are you from?  Chris and Amber
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au> wrote:
>
>>  *Shabbat Shalom Everyone,*
>> *And what a glorious Shabbat it is. The sun is shining, the birds are
>> singing, it is a crisp Autumn morning here in South Australia. *
>> *Have a wonderful day.*
>> *Blessings from Jessica*
>>
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* YoungBarzel at aol.com
>> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 03, 2008 1:25 AM
>> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Where's Betty hiding?
>>
>>   Shalom Y'all,
>>
>>     Okay, today I have missed a single ray of sunshine - so where is Betty
>> hiding?  :-)  Betty we miss you!!
>>
>>     Don't let 'life' keep you too busy (yes, I know, I should listen to
>> myself!!), the warmth, love and insight that you share on this list is
>> indispensable - sorry, no days off for you!!
>>
>>     Have a Shabbat Shalom Betty - one filled with relaxation and
>> rejuvenation - both physical and spiritual, okay - don't forget!!  :-)
>>
>>     Love ya,
>>           *Hanoch **the Lil Lion of Judah
>> Now we all know Rav Kahane was right...*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites
>> at AOL Food<http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>
>> .
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/e2027a79/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 10:27:30 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:27:30 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
In-Reply-To: <cc6.2e6ec0e8.3555bc85@aol.com>
References: <cc6.2e6ec0e8.3555bc85@aol.com>
Message-ID: <531033786-1210347276-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1707975076-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Clyde,

I don't think we are as far apart as we originally thought.

Man, I went to bed last night with an answer and a worry, woke up this morning, read all of these emails and now I got about a weeks worth of homework to do, heavy sigh.

I want to think about all that was posted this morning and give a considered reply but I gotta get some work done today.  So I promise I will write back after Shabbat, okay.

I want to read your document and Cornie's questions, I guess I missed them while I was distracted by my own deliberations, sorry.

Thanks to Steve, Glenn, Pat, Loy, Jessica, Sherry and Hanoch for being a good freind to Clyde.  We do need him here.  Sorry if I left anyone out.

Hey Pat, I like the F Troop analogy,

It isss baaaalllloooonnn!!!

;-{)}

Shabbat Shalom all!

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com

Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:41:09 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective


Dear friends: 
? 
Human sacrifice from the wrong perspective?I think can?lead?to the thought of ancient human sacrifices.?I would like?to take a different perspective on what the sacrifice of Yehsua and his shed blood might mean. Perhaps the example of the Maccabees who rose up and formed an army against the Syrian overlords have a relevance to the issue. Although the Syrian army was defeated, many on the side of the?Maccabees? sacrificed their lives for the greater cause.?Now that is human sacrifice but in no way shape or manner?as the ancient pagans sacrificed their own to their gods.? Yeshua stood up for the greater cause, and the greater cause was the correct way to serve his God and our God, and his neighbor and as our neighbor as our self. In the process of that he was turned over to the Romans for crucifixion, and that caused blood to flow. 
? 
Now, I do not propose to have all the answers, and why the martyrs who stand up and give their lives as a sacrifice for the cause of God and His truth, but that seems to prove something to God, like, now I know you will obey my Word. Perhaps as a son of Adam Yeshua was called upon like no other son of Adam to stand up and sacrifice his life for the truth of God, as so many martyrs before him. Then Perhaps God received his blood he shed as well as the curse of death through sin and placed it on him who had no sin. But to say as many Christians do, we are saved by his death, I think is wrong-headed. I think Yeshua cleared the way and gave us reconciliation with God, and what Yeshua accomplished on behalf of God, that no other human being could do, might be our focus. Tell my brothers Yehsua said -?I go to my Father and your Father, and my God and?your?God. And so perhaps the shed blood of Yeshua had a meaning for God, that perhaps we are yet to fully comprehend. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, but perhaps by and by as we overcome we will understand these great mystery's of God. 
? 
But I would say, that many of you have paid a price, a sacrifice if you will in standing up for the truth of God. Losing family and friends who see you as heretics to orthodox Christianity. Some of you perhaps have found those of family who will no longer call you family. There is a price to pay when we take up the cause of God and his truth, and perhaps Yeshua lead the way and opened up the door that we might all follow in his footsteps.???? 
? 
CB?? 
?




----------------
Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001> ._______________________________________________


From loyb at prodigy.net  Fri May  9 10:43:52 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:43:52 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] - Shir La'ma'alot - Yosef Karduner (Tehilim 121)
References: <48243BFA.2060205@westnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <009201c8b1eb$7cca4200$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Joe,  You are surely right on....what a delightful treat...have been 
listening to the inspiring music as I tended to my 6 violets adorning my 
computer desk.  What a sheer JOY!

Thank you for my Shabbot treat..... as it indeed is.  I have now set up a 
"favorites list" with You Tube. After an hour of Israeli music I once again 
long to be in the land again for good this time. The time is in "HIS HANDS". 
When it does come it will be my eight trip to Israel...and it just dawned on 
me....eight is the number of "new beginnings"  ALLLLLLLRIGHT!!!

Blessings to you for your kind words and thoughfulness as it has "made my 
day"!

May you and all have a blessed Shabbot.          Loy Leorah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "JOE INDOMENICO" <jid at westnet.com.au>
To: <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:56 AM
Subject: [Dialogue] - Shir La'ma'alot - Yosef Karduner (Tehilim 121)


> Shabbat Shalom,
>                         my apologies for my absence over the last
> couple of days, especially to you Cornie as I had promised to come back
> to you. Unfortunately I have dad a very demanding week at work. I have
> just got in for Shabbat.
>                         Just as a change of pace, please everyone take
> a deep breath and Bless HaShem that his mercy endureth forever.
> I am sending you all my deepest love for a Shabbat Shalom. Please enjoy
> a musical rendition of Psalm 121. This psalm has a special significance
> for me. Some very close friends of mine who now live on the Gold Coast
> of Australia came from a Jewish settlement in Gush Katif. As you know
> these dear people were expelled from the Gush in August 2005. The story
> another time.
>                        However , this was the psalm that they sang when
> the whole community, men, women, elderly and children marched 11
> kilometers to the Yisraeli border dressed in sack cloth with the Torah
> at the head of the procession. Anguish and tears. Their past and present
> destroyed , their future uncertain but their faith in HaShem reinforced.
> HaShem led them out and HaShem will lead them back in.
>                       Loy I have a treat for you, you frustrated
> architect you. I think building 5 daughters in 11 years is far more
> admirable than my building palaces for Pharaoh. Well done. Enjoy the
> attachment on the beautiful synagogue of Budapest to the.inspiring music
> of Avinu Malcheinu ( Our Father Our King) sung by Barbara , the lady,
> Streisand.
>                       Keep up your prayers for Naftali ben Gilo. May
> Hashem refresh you all over the Shabbat.
>
> Shabbat Shalom and Baruch HaShem.
> Your brother in Yeshua to the glory of HaShem.
> JOE.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fNpErJ_C5k
>
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> 



From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri May  9 11:03:27 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:03:27 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
In-Reply-To: <531033786-1210347276-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1707975076-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <cc6.2e6ec0e8.3555bc85@aol.com>
	<531033786-1210347276-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1707975076-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805090903y71e388d4ydc389c85adde96d8@mail.gmail.com>

Clyde and all,

I have not read all the emails, but I wanted to reiterate what many have
already said.  I commend each of you for the compassion shown while
"dialogue-ing"  on these issues that our so close to our hearts.

I also have some thoughts I would like to share concerning Yeshua's death.
Perhaps it was not necessarily in the plan for him to die.  I believe he had
a cause-to reunite Israel and to bring about the Redemption of HaShem.  He
was not successful for many reasons.  I believe HaShem has His Ultimate Plan
that will come to pass.  It is the when and how that is influenced by us.
Perhaps Yeshua's death was a case of  "What men intended for evil, G-d
turned to good."  His Plan will be carried out one way or another.  Had the
people been ready, the Reuniting the Redemption could have happened then.
They were not, so the Reuniting still will take place, is taking place, it's
just been a lot harder and a lot longer to get to.  We of the "Lost Tribes"
and other G-d fearers are coming to know the Truth.  That Truth was first
introduced to us through Yeshua.  We are now "shedding all the layers" of
the past 2000+ years until we get to the heart of the Truth.

Love and blessing to you all,

KIm/Hannah (What I would like my Hebrew name to be one day.)
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 10:27 AM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Clyde,
>
> I don't think we are as far apart as we originally thought.
>
> Man, I went to bed last night with an answer and a worry, woke up this
> morning, read all of these emails and now I got about a weeks worth of
> homework to do, heavy sigh.
>
> I want to think about all that was posted this morning and give a
> considered reply but I gotta get some work done today.  So I promise I will
> write back after Shabbat, okay.
>
> I want to read your document and Cornie's questions, I guess I missed them
> while I was distracted by my own deliberations, sorry.
>
> Thanks to Steve, Glenn, Pat, Loy, Jessica, Sherry and Hanoch for being a
> good freind to Clyde.  We do need him here.  Sorry if I left anyone out.
>
> Hey Pat, I like the F Troop analogy,
>
> It isss baaaalllloooonnn!!!
>
> ;-{)}
>
> Shabbat Shalom all!
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
>
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:41:09
> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <To%3Adialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
>
>
> Dear friends:
>
> Human sacrifice from the wrong perspective I think can lead to the thought
> of ancient human sacrifices. I would like to take a different perspective on
> what the sacrifice of Yehsua and his shed blood might mean. Perhaps the
> example of the Maccabees who rose up and formed an army against the Syrian
> overlords have a relevance to the issue. Although the Syrian army was
> defeated, many on the side of the Maccabees  sacrificed their lives for the
> greater cause. Now that is human sacrifice but in no way shape or manner as
> the ancient pagans sacrificed their own to their gods.  Yeshua stood up for
> the greater cause, and the greater cause was the correct way to serve his
> God and our God, and his neighbor and as our neighbor as our self. In the
> process of that he was turned over to the Romans for crucifixion, and that
> caused blood to flow.
>
> Now, I do not propose to have all the answers, and why the martyrs who
> stand up and give their lives as a sacrifice for the cause of God and His
> truth, but that seems to prove something to God, like, now I know you will
> obey my Word. Perhaps as a son of Adam Yeshua was called upon like no other
> son of Adam to stand up and sacrifice his life for the truth of God, as so
> many martyrs before him. Then Perhaps God received his blood he shed as well
> as the curse of death through sin and placed it on him who had no sin. But
> to say as many Christians do, we are saved by his death, I think is
> wrong-headed. I think Yeshua cleared the way and gave us reconciliation with
> God, and what Yeshua accomplished on behalf of God, that no other human
> being could do, might be our focus. Tell my brothers Yehsua said - I go to
> my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. And so perhaps the shed
> blood of Yeshua had a meaning for God, that perhaps we are yet to fully
> comprehend. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, but perhaps by
> and by as we overcome we will understand these great mystery's of God.
>
> But I would say, that many of you have paid a price, a sacrifice if you
> will in standing up for the truth of God. Losing family and friends who see
> you as heretics to orthodox Christianity. Some of you perhaps have found
> those of family who will no longer call you family. There is a price to pay
> when we take up the cause of God and his truth, and perhaps Yeshua lead the
> way and opened up the door that we might all follow in his footsteps.
>
> CB
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>
> ._______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/eefa6204/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri May  9 11:10:04 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:10:04 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] 70 questions attachment
In-Reply-To: <481E255D.90108@gninc.ca>
References: <050420080447.12571.481D3FC8000F087E0000311B22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<C1D94A5ECDC2429BA5ED8FF772AF3635@JessicaPC>
	<1448810816-1209881721-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1410908467-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<5EA00CFA9D2F42FBB5D775399B373A72@JessicaPC>
	<BLU125-DS4B8D0A864647361C3754DBAD40@phx.gbl>
	<481DDD81.30708@gninc.ca>
	<BLU125-DS6C09D564B45259DDC6AC4BAD40@phx.gbl>
	<481E255D.90108@gninc.ca>
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805090910r69bb606cm2e76f4960f9c516d@mail.gmail.com>

Cornie,

Thank you for this.  I will not be able to read it until later due to my
upcoming move, but it is on my list of important things.

Kim

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca> wrote:

>  Maybe a slow learner like me can learn something from the answers to these
> questions, so anyone please be quite free to share your thoughts, as well as
> to the answers I gave to this  Pastor's questions. As you will notice even
> though I quoted out of the New Testament, I had quite a negative impression
> of the N.T. If I have thrown out the baby with the dirty bath water, and did
> not notice it, I could have something to digest for a while. I hope no one
> gets offended by what I write.
>
> Cornie
>
>
>
> Pat Robbins wrote:
>
> Hi Cornie,
>
> Yes, please do send me the entire file (as opposed to the shortened
> version).  If you could send it in an attachment, that would be great.  You
> may send it to my personal address if you so chose, or send it through the
> List, since an attachment would not tie up space on the Dialogue site.  That
> way everyone could look at it and save it to their computers if they wish.
> Am looking very forward to seeing it.  I rather think that we have very much
> that we agree upon, but will certainly write you concerning anything I
> question.
>
> Thank you so much, Cornie, and blessing be upon you and your family,
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Cornie Reimer <Correim at gninc.ca>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>  Pat and Jessica, I really admire your sincere search for the real truth.
> And this goes to you others as well. And Pat,  should you get to read my 70
> plus questions, then please don't be shy to point out how you would differ.
> I am open to learn the from any source. As soon as you let me know what you
> want concerning those 70 questions I will send them to you. I have them in a
> shortened file of 5 or so pages, but they don't necessarily make sense
> without the 61 pages they belong to. Do you want me to send them to you
> personally in an attachment or  in a couple of e-mails. I don't have them
> divided into chapters. And now I may even look at them in a different light.
> I made a lengthy 6 page introduction. But all of this on the condition that
> I had no confidence in the N.T., (accept of course what agrees with the
> Tanach)
>
> . The Pastor and me got along fine. Their is no bitterness or harshness if
> I remember it correct throughout our 1 - 1/2 years of dialogue. He was quite
> confident from the start that he would point it out to me through the Tanach
> , or Old Testament that I needed to come back to Christianity to be saved,
> and that it took a sacrifice of blood to be saved, he referred to Leviticus
> 16, (and I can not find it there so quick what it also says), I know it is
> there somewhere. It is true as he quotes, but at the same time it says that
> If they are to poor to be able to bring 2 turtle doves, for a sin offering,
> it suffices to bring a measure of meal, (no blood in it) for a sin offering.
>
>
> I believe and  agree it takes repentance to become free from sin. It is
> found in the Talmud (yoma 86b) that he who repents out of fear of punishment
> or divine retribution, his intentional sins are transformed into
> unintentional accidental sins, and he who repents out of his love for HaShem
> his intentional sins are transformed into merits.
>
> I look forward to the message this evening from Ross, although I have to
> admit I did not quite see what exactly he wanted to tell us, or what he
> referred to. Much of it was a bit new to me at this point.
>
> Cornie
>
> Pat Robbins wrote:
>
> Love this, Jessica!  In regard to a physical man going to this "spiritual"
> place to wait until the end for his time to return, I immediately think of
> Elijah, whom the L-RD took up to heaven in a whirlwind while still in his
> physical form, II Kings 2:11.  We greatly anticipate Elijah's return, and
> since HaSHem is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He could conceivably
> have done something similar in regard to Yeshua.
>
> I actually turned my back on all these N.T. notions many years ago, but now
> that we are talking about it, the question arises, "Why not?"  There is
> precedent of a man being taken up in bodily form.
>
> On the other hand, IF the Jesus Tomb turns out to be the real thing, then
> his "risen body" could not have been from his original flesh and
> bones. There was a "bone box" with his name on it in that tomb, and there
> would have been no need for a bone box if the body was not there.  As I
> understand it, the custom was that a bone box was not added until a year
> after the death, when the tomb was re-entered to place the remaining bones
> into their box.  And, of course, because there have been times when N.T.
> editors appear to have reworked the original writings to accord
> with official dogma, as opposed to actual truth, I have had great difficulty
> wanting to look at it at all.
>
> Those who, like Ross, have persisted in excavating the facts from the N.T.
> are worthy of great admiration.  May we ascertain the facts buried therein
> while exposing every lie.  And may the name and memory of Yeshua be
> vindicated.
>
> Blessings to you,
>
> Pat
>
>  *From:* Jessica <jessley at eftel.net.au>
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 04, 2008 4:15 AM
> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>  *John, I totally agree that the man/god 'thing' had to go. What I don't
> understand is - why would it (the concept) need to be replaced with another
> (concept).?? Why can't we simply and contritely approach our Creator
> directly?  If one man can live according to Torah, and there has never
> arisen any evidence that Yeshua committed any sin, then why can't we learn
> to live the same way? According to King David (2 Samuel 22:33 & Psalm 18:30
> & 32) it is G_d Himself who gives us the strength to be perfect. Is it so
> hard to live a Torah lifestyle? Would HaShem command us to live in a way
> that we would find impossible? Surely  it is the unrealistic burden of
> interpretation that makes it so hard. Yes - I DO understand the struggle
> with the Yetzer HaRa - but didn't James (brother of Yeshua) say that he (the
> yetzer hara) would flee from us if we submit to G_d. (James 4:7-10)*
> *We will all die and we will all be held accountable for the way we lived.Surely the atonement for our sins is in our repentance and return to Torah
> and in our death and the mercy of HaShem,  rather than in the 'blood' of
> another human being. (After all it was HaShem Himself who provided the
> 'covering' for Adam and Hava, and it was HaShem Himself who provided the ram
> in place of Isacc). I'm reeeealy struggling with the concept of a
> personal 'intercessor' who died, came back to life then went 'somewhere'
> where we can't follow yet, and will return when the time is ripe.  Even
> though my teacher friend has tried to explain it so many times, the idea
> just doesn't want to stick. The concept just raises another question in my
> head - that "if G_d is Spirit and Yeshua was raised in a physical body, then
> where has he gone to wait out the time of the end"? If the 'heavenly
> tabernacle' is a 'spiritual tabernacle' and Yeshua is in a physical form
> ???? I'm confused.*
> *Of course there was the High Priest who 'went in' on behalf of all the
> people at Yom Kippur, but that didn't take away the need for each individual
> to purify himelf/herself, repent and seek His Mercy. I believe it was for
> the 'nation' that the High Priest 'went into the Most Holy Place'.  This is
> the one time that it was essential for the people to be of  'one mind and
> one heart' - ie: purified & united - for the sake of the whole nation. *
> *There is a reference in Psalm 122:5 which refers to thrones in the plural
> sense, so I suppose a human king who lives by Torah and teaches and
> administers HaShem's justice is required for national unity and the unity
> with HaShem, and in that sense would rule with (alongside) the King of the
> Universe. *
> *I've probably repeated myself for which I apologise, but  as o**ur
> 'journey' continues - may I say that I'm so very glad to have you and the
> others in this Dialogue to travel with.*
> *May HaShem Bless your search,*
> *Jessica*
> **
> ----- Original Message ----- From: <carlson_john at bellsouth.net>
> To: "Dialogue" <dialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The role of the 'Messiah" - the Jewish view
>
>  >I fully agree with the issue of seeking Jessica.  I belive we may never
> have the answer (maybe we will) but it is the desire to know Him tha please
> HaShem.
> >
> > As for the rest I think we are pretty much in line (as I said mre
> research).  I think Loy had a similar commect recetly as well.  Here is my
> point.  I consider Yeshua Messiah on faith, but I no longer believe he is
> (or needs to be) G-d.  So fundamentally when one ditched the man/G-d savior
> aspect ya beed to know what takes its place.  Not getting sat answers
> >
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> *>
> >*
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1412 - Release Date: 02/05/2008 4:34 PM
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 03/05/2008 11:22 AM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/e5b240d6/attachment.html 

From loyb at prodigy.net  Fri May  9 11:35:30 2008
From: loyb at prodigy.net (Loy)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 11:35:30 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: A perspective on Paul
References: <d2e.1ef6a223.354fc886@aol.com>
Message-ID: <017301c8b1f2$b3785970$de86fea9@loyc30e02e1325>

Clyde,  I have printed out all 19 pages of your draft.  As I have little time extra...I will have to read it later.  thanks so much for sharing.  Shabbot Shalom,  Loy
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CBrown4465 at aol.com 
  To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org 
  Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:18 PM
  Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Fwd: A perspective on Paul


  Shalom to all:

  On 4/25/08 Ross forwarded a draft of mine that is very much a study still in process. This means it is subject to change. I value the input from others where they may or may not agree on different points. Iron sharpens iron, and I may have missed the mark here or there. I'm open to different perspectives, but thus far I haven't received one critique. I thought I would send the draft again with hope some of you that have a perspective on the issues discussed, might take a look and inform me where you agree and where you disagree.

  Thank you in advance

  Clyde 





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/f70df591/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 13:30:21 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:30:21 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence
Message-ID: <050920081830.1373.4824983C000A338E0000055D22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of HaSHeM shall name. Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of HaSHeM, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for HaSHeM delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of HaSHeM, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and
 till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:1-7
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/6605fffc/attachment.html 

From carlson_john at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 13:37:22 2008
From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 18:37:22 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence
In-Reply-To: <050920081830.1373.4824983C000A338E0000055D22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
References: <050920081830.1373.4824983C000A338E0000055D22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
Message-ID: <181332817-1210358662-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-697404909-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Shabbat Shalom man.

Remind Rhonda that I got the food tomorrow.  Burritos.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net

Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:30:21 
To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence


_______________________________________________



From YoungBarzel at aol.com  Fri May  9 13:49:27 2008
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:49:27 EDT
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence
Message-ID: <c00.32676b14.3555f6b7@aol.com>

Hey Glenn - 
 
    That's taken from the portion of the  Prophets ('Haftorah") that I 
chanted on my Bar Mitzvah.  No coincidences  pal...none...
 
    Best  regards,    
            Hanoch  the Lil Lion of  Judah



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/6932cb1d/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 13:51:44 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:51:44 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence
In-Reply-To: <181332817-1210358662-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-697404909-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <050920081830.1373.4824983C000A338E0000055D22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>
	<181332817-1210358662-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-697404909-@bxe002.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <050920081851.8152.48249D400003534100001FD822230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Will do. And Shabbit - Shallem to you, too!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/106394d7/attachment.html 

From chattertonw at bellsouth.net  Fri May  9 13:54:42 2008
From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (chattertonw at bellsouth.net)
Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 18:54:42 +0000
Subject: [Dialogue] Keep not Silence
In-Reply-To: <c00.32676b14.3555f6b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <050920081854.15876.48249DF2000AC76200003E0422230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9902019B9D0A9B9B0E080C@att.net>

Hanoch - none whatsoever. Was sitting here listening to Ancient Words... stuff like Kyrie, Hatikva, HaKedushah, Kadosh... and well, I was moved to share! When the song Let the Weight of Your Glory Fall came on, I was like translated...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/fb1bdda9/attachment.html 

From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com  Fri May  9 15:00:28 2008
From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:00:28 -0500
Subject: [Dialogue] My thoughts on Yeshua's death
Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0805091300mefc8d05v3c0a627d498f65e8@mail.gmail.com>

Resending this as I forgot to change the subject line.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: kim alvarado <kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, May 9, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org


Clyde and all,

I have not read all the emails, but I wanted to reiterate what many have
already said.  I commend each of you for the compassion shown while
"dialogue-ing"  on these issues that our so close to our hearts.

I also have some thoughts I would like to share concerning Yeshua's death.
Perhaps it was not necessarily in the plan for him to die.  I believe he had
a cause-to reunite Israel and to bring about the Redemption of HaShem.  He
was not successful for many reasons.  I believe HaShem has His Ultimate Plan
that will come to pass.  It is the when and how that is influenced by us.
Perhaps Yeshua's death was a case of  "What men intended for evil, G-d
turned to good."  His Plan will be carried out one way or another.  Had the
people been ready, the Reuniting the Redemption could have happened then.
They were not, so the Reuniting still will take place, is taking place, it's
just been a lot harder and a lot longer to get to.  We of the "Lost Tribes"
and other G-d fearers are coming to know the Truth.  That Truth was first
introduced to us through Yeshua.  We are now "shedding all the layers" of
the past 2000+ years until we get to the heart of the Truth.

Love and blessing to you all,

KIm/Hannah (What I would like my Hebrew name to be one day.)
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 10:27 AM, <carlson_john at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Clyde,
>
> I don't think we are as far apart as we originally thought.
>
> Man, I went to bed last night with an answer and a worry, woke up this
> morning, read all of these emails and now I got about a weeks worth of
> homework to do, heavy sigh.
>
> I want to think about all that was posted this morning and give a
> considered reply but I gotta get some work done today.  So I promise I will
> write back after Shabbat, okay.
>
> I want to read your document and Cornie's questions, I guess I missed them
> while I was distracted by my own deliberations, sorry.
>
> Thanks to Steve, Glenn, Pat, Loy, Jessica, Sherry and Hanoch for being a
> good freind to Clyde.  We do need him here.  Sorry if I left anyone out.
>
> Hey Pat, I like the F Troop analogy,
>
> It isss baaaalllloooonnn!!!
>
> ;-{)}
>
> Shabbat Shalom all!
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CBrown4465 at aol.com
>
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 10:41:09
> To:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org <To%3Adialogue at rootsoffaith.org>
> Subject: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective
>
>
> Dear friends:
>
> Human sacrifice from the wrong perspective I think can lead to the thought
> of ancient human sacrifices. I would like to take a different perspective on
> what the sacrifice of Yehsua and his shed blood might mean. Perhaps the
> example of the Maccabees who rose up and formed an army against the Syrian
> overlords have a relevance to the issue. Although the Syrian army was
> defeated, many on the side of the Maccabees  sacrificed their lives for the
> greater cause. Now that is human sacrifice but in no way shape or manner as
> the ancient pagans sacrificed their own to their gods.  Yeshua stood up for
> the greater cause, and the greater cause was the correct way to serve his
> God and our God, and his neighbor and as our neighbor as our self. In the
> process of that he was turned over to the Romans for crucifixion, and that
> caused blood to flow.
>
> Now, I do not propose to have all the answers, and why the martyrs who
> stand up and give their lives as a sacrifice for the cause of God and His
> truth, but that seems to prove something to God, like, now I know you will
> obey my Word. Perhaps as a son of Adam Yeshua was called upon like no other
> son of Adam to stand up and sacrifice his life for the truth of God, as so
> many martyrs before him. Then Perhaps God received his blood he shed as well
> as the curse of death through sin and placed it on him who had no sin. But
> to say as many Christians do, we are saved by his death, I think is
> wrong-headed. I think Yeshua cleared the way and gave us reconciliation with
> God, and what Yeshua accomplished on behalf of God, that no other human
> being could do, might be our focus. Tell my brothers Yehsua said - I go to
> my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. And so perhaps the shed
> blood of Yeshua had a meaning for God, that perhaps we are yet to fully
> comprehend. I don't know if any of this makes sense to you, but perhaps by
> and by as we overcome we will understand these great mystery's of God.
>
> But I would say, that many of you have paid a price, a sacrifice if you
> will in standing up for the truth of God. Losing family and friends who see
> you as heretics to orthodox Christianity. Some of you perhaps have found
> those of family who will no longer call you family. There is a price to pay
> when we take up the cause of God and his truth, and perhaps Yeshua lead the
> way and opened up the door that we might all follow in his footsteps.
>
> CB
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------
> Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at
> AOL Food <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>
> ._______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/b511a27e/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  9 15:26:03 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:26:03 EDT
Subject: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Human sacrifice - a perspective  
Message-ID: <c0b.3166d36c.35560d5b@aol.com>

Hi Kim: your post is very, very interesting. You stated
 
Perhaps Yeshua's death was a case of  "What men intended for evil, G-d  
turned to good."  His Plan will be carried out one way or another.   Had the people 
been ready, the Reuniting the Redemption could have happened  then.
 
I think this is so true as you said - Had the people been  ready. It reminded 
me of an incident that speaks volumes and confirms  your insight. I like the 
story in MK 11 best.It reads:
 
"...And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry, and  
seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came if happily he might  find 
anything thereon, and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves;  for the 
time of the figs was not yet, and Yeshua answered  and said, no man eat of you 
hereafter forever, and his disciples heard it." (MK  11:12-14)
 
Then Yeshua cleanses the temple and castigates the scribes and chief  priests 
MK 11:
15-19.
 
And then in the morning as they passed the fig tree Yehsua cursed,  Peter 
remembering, said unto Yeshua Master, behold, the fig tree which you  cursed is 
withered away. What might this mean. It was not time for the  fig tree to bear 
fruit. Now put what Kim stated ; Had  the people been ready- with  It was not 
time for the  fig tree to bear fruit. Now put the two  statements together, 
and then think of what is happening with many being called  out of Babylon, and 
bearing fruit.
 
CB  
 
 Clyde and all,

I have not read all the emails, but I  wanted to reiterate what many have 
already said.  I commend each of you for  the compassion shown while 
"dialogue-ing"  on these issues that our so  close to our hearts.  

I also have some thoughts I would like to  share concerning Yeshua's death.  
Perhaps it was not necessarily in the  plan for him to die.  I believe he had 
a cause-to reunite Israel and to  bring about the Redemption of HaShem.  He 
was not successful for many  reasons.  I believe HaShem has His Ultimate Plan 
that will come to  pass.  It is the when and how that is influenced by us.  
Perhaps  Yeshua's death was a case of  "What men intended for evil, G-d turned to  
good."  His Plan will be carried out one way or another.  Had the  people 
been ready, the Reuniting the Redemption could have happened then.   They were 
not, so the Reuniting still will take place, is taking place, it's  just been a 
lot harder and a lot longer to get to.  We of the "Lost Tribes"  and other G-d 
fearers are coming to know the Truth.  That Truth was first  introduced to us 
through Yeshua.  We are now "shedding all the layers" of  the past 2000+ 
years until we get to the heart of the Truth.

Love and  blessing to you all,




**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/70ecd852/attachment.html 

From CBrown4465 at aol.com  Fri May  9 15:56:09 2008
From: CBrown4465 at aol.com (CBrown4465 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:56:09 EDT
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Message-ID: <be1.33057511.35561469@aol.com>

Hey my friend:
 
Thank you greatly. Hanoch you are one of those rare ones they invented the  
phrase for - You gotta just love that Guy. Not only that but your  humor makes 
my day
 
Thanks again Pal
 
CB.
 
 



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/909e8436/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: YoungBarzel at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Conclusion.
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 08:34:21 EDT
Size: 6291
Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20080509/909e8436/attachment.mht 

From dmlouisiana at gmail.com  Fri May  9 16:15:44 2008
From: dmlouisiana at gmail.com (abe black)
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:15:44 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
In-Reply-To: <050920080540.18963.4823E3D60009FC8400004A1322218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net>
References: <050820082242.16217.482381EA000EED0C00003F5922193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net>
	<20080508234635.HMMP5310.ispmxaamta04-gx.windstream.net@garye580dc5aa6>
	<050920080540.18963.4823E3D60009FC8400004A1322218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBFCCCC080C07039B@att.net>
Message-ID: <c0a248cf0805091415o24a6eab8n6dd731ec7c210924@mail.gmail.com>

I hope to hear more from Gary on this as well and you know it was reading
his message that had me sign back up. His message brought up some things we
had been talking about and I believe G-d reveals things to those who pray
and ask for direction. Jesus will always be a import part of my life.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tamara Michael <tmich33 at bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, May 9, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Passover: #1. Man, #2. Lamb, #3. Man
To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org


    Hey Gary,

Myself personally I would like to hear more about this. I went back and
reread Genesis and I'm amazed at what I missed....it definately does not say
that Issac was with Abraham when he came back from the alter. If I remember
correctly the Muslums believe that Issac was sacrificed also. Makes sence
what the Torah Anthology says about Issac being Holy as he was a sacrifice
to G-d. He was not allowed to leave Holy ground, hence the servant going to
get him a bride, it also explains why Sarah died so suddenly. Another
question is why the geneology of his brother directly after the incident?
There had to be some significance to that.

Thanks for the input. : )

Tammy





Dear Dialogue List,



I have followed, or tried to follow, the line of reasoning, logic, and texts
of probably 800-1000 e-mails received of late ? and have said nothing.  Out
of this number of e-mails, there were a considerable volume of entries
concerning the Passover in Egypt as compared to the situation of the one who
was given the name of Yeshua.  So far, the prior discussion appears to have
involved a *two-fold comparison* about the Passover scenario and the element
of the "blood sacrifice" (which has also become a part of the discussion).
With my background of study in the texts of both the OT and the NT, I can
more fully appreciate the discussion and dichotomy of various comments about
these issues.  We are all seeking the truth.



>From a review of the prior discussion, it would appear that a major element
seems to be missing.  To this point at least, the discussion has revolved
around two things: (#1) the Passover in Egypt with the Lamb, and (#2) the
Passover in NT times with the Man [who, we are told, represents the Lamb].
So now we have the Lamb and the Man (i.e. presumed "Son of Man [Adam]").
But is this the end of the story?



This brief e-mail would suggest to this audience that we might have
overlooked what is really the authentic scenario #1 with the event of
Abraham and his son Isaac in Ge 22.  This would mean that now scenario #2
would be the theme of the Passover in Egypt, and that now #3 would be the
theme of Yeshua in Palestine.  With this viewpoint, we have a 1-2-3 instead
of just a 1-2.  Why do we start the whole comparison of the Passover with
Egypt, when that was "down the line" in the story that really began with the
presumed "sacrifice" in the days of Abraham and Isaac (see: Ge 22)?



Now, I don't know if the Dial