From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 00:16:01 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:16:01 +1100 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request Message-ID: Hi Margie, I wanted to give you some encouragement. I too have been in - and still am to an extent - in a similar position to the one you describe. Like you, I know that our prayers to HaShem for encouragement and the 'right words' to say will be answered, although what the outcome will be I can't say. What I think you have to take strength from is your courage to teach and voice your thoughts and beliefs. You can't be responsible for how those truths are taken, but I think even when we meet with initial resistance the seed has been planted to induce more scripture study and soul searching. It could be that having a meeting with the 'pastor' will lead him to re think his own ideas even if he initially disagrees. It could be that HaShem meant things to progress this way just so you could talk to the leader of this church and plant a seed of enquiry. Have faith and trust, I am sure even if things don't work out the way you planned, there will be a greater good to it that we can't see yet. I'll pray for you. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/6ea42ace/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Apr 1 00:22:57 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:22:57 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher In-Reply-To: <849193.70843.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <849193.70843.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200904010522.n315MrJY018138@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Margie, Am glad you went back to the preacher and handed him the references to read. I hope it was pointed out on the note that the Psalm 119:126 was an answer to prayer about him. That will sit with him a while. It is a typical reaction, and he and his hermeneutics are the final arbiters of spiritual matters. We have all run into this. May the new leaders discover the often used phrase by Ezekiel, " And you shall know the L-rd." May they discover in Hosea that "Ephraim's people are destroyed by lack of knowledge, (Hos. 4:6). May the passage of Ephraim remaking the Covenant, "and thou shall know the L-rd," light up for them, ( Hos. 2:20). May the message to Ephraim: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos. 6:6) jump out at them! We are most blessed that we have had our understanding opened to by His calling. May the new leaders be inspired by His Guidance! We will go on, and "as for our house, we will seek the L-rd." Steve At 08:41 PM 3/31/2009, you wrote: >First of all, I'd like this group to know how much you mean to me >again. Even though I don't post much, I feel such a connection with >each one of you. We don't agree on everything but one thing we do >share is a love for HaShem and His Torah. Again, thank you for the >prayers. When we got to the preachers office, two members of the >Bible study were there with him. They began by relieving us of our >leadership role, which I could understand since we are not attending >the church anymore. After some uncomfortable small talk they ended >the meeting. As I was walking to the car with my Bible and >scriptures I had written down I felt like I had to go back and share >with the preacher. I asked him about a few of the scriptures I had >written down.(Psalm 119:126 and more) He chose not to listen, he >wasn't rude but I could tell he did not want to listen. I left >the paper on his desk and I pray that he will look them up and that >he will be stirred to seek the truth. We went to Bible study >tonight and it was a bit weird. We love the people in the group and >have decided to stay for now. We were able to finish the first five >books which was a first for all of them. They decided we would quit >reading through the Bible and do a study on the books of Hosea and >Ezekiel! I nearly fell out of my chair! The leader they chose is >the one person who always had a thousand questions about what we >taught. He even emailed me a site about Ephraim a few months ago. > >Shalom, >Margie > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090331/c28084d6/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 00:41:45 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 16:41:45 +1100 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Message-ID: Hi Cornie, Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. I hope the message of emuna truly her. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/d258cb4e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 00:59:19 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 00:59:19 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Thank you, Joe & brief update! In-Reply-To: <49D2DE01.1040707@westnet.com.au> References: <49D2DE01.1040707@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1A429E1D390D41A7BB13A924A15161DA@bettylaptop> Toda rabba, Joe, for your kind words. I do so appreciate your prayers on the behalf of Roger and me and my job search and upcoming exams (one of which is this coming Monday). Roger definitely has a mind of his own. I am praying and will do my best to see that he does not overdo, but my admonitions often go unheeded because I am not always a very good example.as in "do what I say, not do what I do!" I continually have to work on that innate fault that I readily accept as my own. As in now, when I should be sleeping, why am I not????? I went to bed, couldn't sleep, so decided to get up to study, but needed a bit of encouragement to get me going, so I opened your email.again, Joe, thanks for your kindness and your compassion and encouragement. As for the 1500 unread emails, I have to clarify a bit. They were not all from the Dialogue list; some were work and job related and some from other friends and email lists, but probably the vast majority were from all of you guys, or should I say 'mates!" Actually, I have taken breaks here and there in the past couple of weeks and have read most of them; I just didn't want to delete them because I had every intention of responding.do you see what I mean about the overdoing part? The problem is that I kept trying to read them and put off responding. As a result, every time I opened my computer, the number had multiplied, and I kept getting these messages that my mailbox had gotten too large!!! Imagine that! So what I have been doing today is dragging some of them to my desktop, still thinking I will re-read them and be able to respond. Now my desktop is filled with little email envelopes!!! Roger laughed when he saw it. I know it is silly, but it will remind me of all the blessings of the friends I have surrounding me! All silliness aside, we are truly blessed to have such a wonderful group of friends with whom we can share our thoughts, our studies, our prayers, our lives and our hearts.and it is okay if we disagree. We are each unique, yet we have a bond that is stronger than all our differences.and that is the love we have for G-d, Torah and Israel. I truly believe that it is HaShem who has brought us all together and has caused us to be intrinsically bound one to one another. Shalom v'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] STRESS MANAGEMENT & brief update] Shalom Cara Elisheva, so great to hear from you. You have been missed. Even your one liners are appreciated. You must have the record for the most unread emails. I would freak out last year when there was a lot of activity on the list to see 40 accumulate overnight, but 1500.......Mamma Mia!!!!!! What a crazy world we live in when employers overlook a track record of experience like yours. You would be the first to be employed if I had the choice. I think they call it multi tasking. A teacher should be gauged on her experience and dedication to the education of the children. This I know you have in abundance.But the authorities know best, sigh. I will be praying for you during your exams. If it does not rain , it pours. So glad that Roger has employment but I hope he does not chew off more than he can bite. Please keep an eye on him and ensure that he does not overdo it. I am sure you will. We males can be very pig headed. Take care and only write as time becomes available. We are with you in spirit. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/f3e01e3f/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 01:24:23 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:24:23 +1100 Subject: [Dialogue] Suzie Message-ID: Sorry Suzie - I've only just read your question. Yes it is the job interview I mentioned when I wrote to you ! Baruch HaShem!. I'm not sure what the conditions of the job are - I was so delighted to be accepted for something I neglected to ask for all the details - when I e mailed Mum and Dad to let them know, they of course started to worry because I hadn't asked essential questions. No doubt it will be based on commission, however as more and more jobs go and as a consequence more enter unemployment, I'm grateful for any good news! I'll keep you all updated on Dad. I feel just desperate for help - as does mum. She found such comfort from the help she got from everyone here - I think I mentioned that I sent her everyone's words of comfort which printed out and took to Dad. I have never heard her so distraught and in need. Dad has been allowed home for a while so they can clear a bed and treat him as a day patient. He has to attend an appointment on Wednesday (British time) to hear what they are going to suggest for treatment. I am just praying that it will be the right treatment, and they won't do what many patient testimonies suggest and cast him to one side suggesting he is 'too old' . Dad is 75, looks about 50, and extremely active and fit. unfortunately he is subject to the British NHS system, and doesn't have private health cover. However I am placing all my trust in HaShem, and I can't even begin to express how grateful I am for your thoughts and prayers. I'll let you know any updates Much love, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/37e798d8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/37e798d8/attachment.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 03:40:24 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 03:40:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher In-Reply-To: <200904010522.n315MrJY018138@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> References: <849193.70843.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200904010522.n315MrJY018138@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Wonderful news, Margie! You stood strong and delivered the message to the preacher. May the words of Psalm 119:126 give him pause and haunt him until his eyes are opened and his heart be pricked by the these piercing words.and the knowledge that it was an answer to prayer about him. It is okay that you and your husband were relieved of the teaching.it sounds like this new leader (chosen by the class, probably not a coincidence), may be just the one who will continue to question and cause others to do so as well. The passages that Steve brought up in Ezekiel and Hosea are right to the point.it is really amazing when you think of all the solid teaching in these two books.wow! They are all about t'shuvah (repenting) and being restored to HaShem! May HaShem go before you and your husband, Margie. Please keep us updated on how the classes are going, etc., You will be in my prayers. Love and Shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher Margie, Am glad you went back to the preacher and handed him the references to read. I hope it was pointed out on the note that the Psalm 119:126 was an answer to prayer about him. That will sit with him a while. It is a typical reaction, and he and his hermeneutics are the final arbiters of spiritual matters. We have all run into this. May the new leaders discover the often used phrase by Ezekiel, " And you shall know the L-rd." May they discover in Hosea that "Ephraim's people are destroyed by lack of knowledge, (Hos. 4:6). May the passage of Ephraim remaking the Covenant, "and thou shall know the L-rd," light up for them, ( Hos. 2:20). May the message to Ephraim: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos. 6:6) jump out at them! We are most blessed that we have had our understanding opened to by His calling. May the new leaders be inspired by His Guidance! We will go on, and "as for our house, we will seek the L-rd." Steve At 08:41 PM 3/31/2009, you wrote: First of all, I'd like this group to know how much you mean to me again. Even though I don't post much, I feel such a connection with each one of you. We don't agree on everything but one thing we do share is a love for HaShem and His Torah. Again, thank you for the prayers. When we got to the preachers office, two members of the Bible study were there with him. They began by relieving us of our leadership role, which I could understand since we are not attending the church anymore. After some uncomfortable small talk they ended the meeting. As I was walking to the car with my Bible and scriptures I had written down I felt like I had to go back and share with the preacher. I asked him about a few of the scriptures I had written down.(Psalm 119:126 and more) He chose not to listen, he wasn't rude but I could tell he did not want to listen. I left the paper on his desk and I pray that he will look them up and that he will be stirred to seek the truth. We went to Bible study tonight and it was a bit weird. We love the people in the group and have decided to stay for now. We were able to finish the first five books which was a first for all of them. They decided we would quit reading through the Bible and do a study on the books of Hosea and Ezekiel! I nearly fell out of my chair! The leader they chose is the one person who always had a thousand questions about what we taught. He even emailed me a site about Ephraim a few months ago. Shalom, Margie _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/6441c95a/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 04:05:23 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 04:05:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Message-ID: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute.that was several hours ago.I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem" tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B'Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d'var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t'shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger.and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes.I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah.loving HaShem with all that is in us.and teaching Him to our children. "when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up". But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond.with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we "live, move and have our being," to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant. "And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem." (Hosea again.2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he "wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride's finger." (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the "sign on the hand" referenced to in the Shema.and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses.not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage. I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam.that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit.that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list. and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things.my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn't ramble too much.anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep.busy days ahead.tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep.also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair. And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday. and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday.Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down.thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys.if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative.suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my.I have rambled.sorry.just tired. Thanks for indulging me.and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the 'delete' button. B'Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/b6ed660c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 04:10:16 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 04:10:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24B8695A751045F6B994A84129A46DBE@bettylaptop> Dear Cornie, And I will remember you and family as well. I have in times past prayed for you and your family, including Jamie, your grandson, but now I am reminded again. I have had experience the "hell" of dealing with someone with bi-polar.you never know what is coming down the pike. You have my empathy and my prayers and of course my love. Be encouraged.you are highly esteemed and loved not only by many of us, but also by HaShem! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:42 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Hi Cornie, Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. I hope the message of emuna truly her. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/f1f552d9/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 1 06:08:53 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:08:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> References: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <1D3ADAD9-FE08-418E-B9D5-1E382B565D20@earthlink.net> Glad you rambled Betty...and not just because I am you brother! See you soon. James On Apr 1, 2009, at 5:05 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Dear friends, > > Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and > decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional > certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I > would check email for a minute?that was several hours ago?I think > HaShem had another plan in mind for me. > > In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note > to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem? tied in > perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach > during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B?Nai > Mitzvah class. > > The passage for my d?var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to > the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many > and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read > it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second > time (second chance relating to t?shuvah) with the tablets in his > hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own > Finger?and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him > holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in > answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes?I > get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! > > I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, > which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah?loving HaShem > with all that is in us?and teaching Him to our children? ?when we > walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when > we rise up?. But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know > Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His > Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and > incorporating them into our own lives? > > And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond? > with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we > endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in > whom we ?live, move and have our being,? to become one with Him as > in a marriage covenant? > > ?And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in > judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth > thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem.? (Hosea > again?2:21-22). > As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox > Jewish man prays each morning as he ?wraps the tefellin strap around > the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on > his bride?s finger.? (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This > is the ?sign on the hand? referenced to in the Shema?and to me, it > clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. > 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to > relate to Him! > > Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one > chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her > people, one can benefit much from all of these verses?not that non- > Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we > are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem > > There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and > marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi- > layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made > with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten > Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a > bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given > served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage? > > I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning > and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So > much for studying for my exam?that is okay. I think my inability to > sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit?that I > needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on > the list? and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation > time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my > own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both > remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly > important things?my coming exam pales in comparison! > > Hope I didn?t ramble too much?anyway, I need to get a few hours > sleep?busy days ahead?tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning > for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; > then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam > prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep?also work on > teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair? And next week, Exam on > Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more > lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work > for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for > home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday? and > Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday?Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be > ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next > few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! > > Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am > teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down?thanks for > letting me bounce some of them off you guys?if any of you have any > suggestions, I would be most appreciative?suggestions/comments and > prayers are always appreciated. > > Oh my?I have rambled?sorry?just tired. Thanks for indulging me?and > if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the ?delete? > button? > > B?Ahava rabba (with much love), > > Elisheva/Betty > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/1f5b3ab2/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 1 06:26:07 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 07:26:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom In-Reply-To: <000301c9b24b$1e622690$0400a8c0@marvin> References: <855590370903310542l4084d60er81f25e24e12938c1@mail.gmail.com><005e01c9b208$2e110680$0400a8c0@marvin> <49D24E5B.1050302@gninc.ca> <585680.90826.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <000301c9b24b$1e622690$0400a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <90CC6C58-7D1F-4865-A831-CFBCE0B94D42@earthlink.net> I love this! Is it not amazing that such words and sentiments, right out of the Tanakh, were getting blasted in your regions! Thank about it, given our Christian cultural heritage for over 300 years now in the South... James On Mar 31, 2009, at 5:53 PM, mhyde wrote: > Cornie, > > I have really enjoyed Tracy?s music, I know what you mean about > listing to it forty-eleven times in a row. The other day I was > doing some work around the house, and living out in the country I > put the CD in the truck, opened the doors and cranked it up > reallllll loud?? Hashem and I had a good day fellowshipping that > day. I thought of you and then it seem like the next day you sent > us a letter so I thought, there?s your sign, Marvin. It took me a > few days to run Tracy down, but finally I just had to invite myself > to supper to get your CD. > > I?m going to pray that your wife will listen to that CD. You talk > about Tracy?s music when you get the chance and leave that CD out > were she can find it and we are going to pray Hashem works a miracle > in your life. > > I?m glad you enjoyed the music, and I thought you would. Remember, > there?s going to be a lot of people praying for you. > > Shalom, > Marvin > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of Tracy Osborne > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:19 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom > > Hey there Cornie! > > So happy the music was a blessing to you! Yeah, Marvin came over and > spent an evening and bought you the CD - he wanted to surprise you! > > Speaking of Emuna - wow! - what Emunah you must have to hold on to > HaShem with the trial that you are faced with. I have faced the same > affliction with loved ones before - It is a grueling 'walk on > eggshells'. May HaShem "fill your heart with all joy in believing" > for therein is the power for endurance. > > Chesed v'Shalom, > Tracy > > From: Cornie Reimer > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 1:09:47 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom > > Hey there, greetings to all of you, Tracy, I went to pick up the > mail yesterday and would you guess what I found there? It was a gift > from Marvin, an album of your music Tracy, I don't know if I word it > right. I will let it speak for itself. That was not 24 hours ago, I > am listening to it right now for the umpteenth time, at least the > seventh time. Some times the tears just flow freely for joy. I have > such respect for your efforts to bring out what must have been > coming from the heart. > > Yesterday evening after I had heard it a couple of times, I could > listen to it freely with sound, as Mary my dear wife was not home. I > had set up a sound system I had given to her to listen to her church > services right from our living room over the phone when she did not > feel good enough to go to church. Otherwise I have to use ear > phones unless she is not home, because my wife, a bipolar, can not > seem to handle anything that is new to her. I had just recently > offered her an old audio tape with very familiar Christian hymns, > and this was a miracle happening, in our home, up to here she would > reject everything on a tape or CD that had to be played on a CD > player, as that was going along with the world. But she was so down > and out coping with life, I pitied her, and guess what!! This time > she just got sold on that music from that old audio tape, and held > unto it for dear life as it seemed, even when they were using a > guitar with it. ( They don't use musical instruments in her > church).She is now playing it about every day for at least a month. > > So last night I thought I would just see if some thing like this > "One In My Hand", from your Al;bum would be acceptable with her too, > I thought it is so good. I picked out one of the songs you sing > Tracy, that I thought she would soonest accept, and told her, that I > new she did not as a rule like anything new, would she want to just > for a couple of minutes listen to this? I could turn it off any > time, very reluctantly she said it was alright. So I turned it on > hoping that surely this might be OK, but I had barely turned it on, > and she almost screamed to turn it off, she couldn't understand why > I would have tried this stunt on her. Now my hard earned credit with > her sunk to a low ebb again. I kindly told her that was alright, > although she had not really given it a fair try. (any one familiar > with bipolar? Only than you will understand) But the message on > emuna is the best medicine to give to a victim of bipolar. Mary is > scared stiff, to try any medication, since it seems like she is > allergic to most anything. > > Marvin I can feel with what you as well as Susie referred to, that > it is hard to grasp, why those loved ones of ours find just simply > no good in the Torah way, so dear to just one of us here, and one > there, so scattered. Thank you so much for sending me this beautiful > CD. > > Cornie > > > > mhyde wrote: > Hanoch, > > I think we all struggle with this one, especially if you?re a > parent. I am most thankful to Hashem for my 3 beautiful and healthy > daughters, although sometimes I?m not too happy about their personal > choices, but I?m slowly coming to the place as a parent to leave to > them to work those out with their creator. I told my oldest > daughter a few months back how much I loved her and would always be > there for her, but she was going to have to find God for herself, > somewhere, somehow, someplace you will make your peace with your > heavenly father(YHVH). > > I personally believe or lean toward the perspective in the following > quote from the article. This is the only way, to explain so many of > life situations that come our way. I have watch people my whole > life and I believe there must be truth to the idea that we are here > to fix something. Many people, however continue to struggle under > the false notations of just believe in something without any of the > work that goes along to correct ourselves. This was stated so well > by rabbi Brody in His ?Stop Crying? part 1, article. ( this is a > must read) R. Brody said, ? What do we learn from the pattern of > Hashem?s repeated kindnesses and miracles as opposed to Israel ?s > repeated crying and complaining? The answer is simple ? if a person > doesn?t work seriously on character improvement, he?ll never change. > It doesn?t matter if a person sees the greatest supernatural > miracles with his own two eyes ? if he doesn?t work on himself, > he?ll be spiritually blind as a bat. He sees Hashem?s hand save him > from the Egyptians, when according to the natural course of events > there was no way of escaping their sharp swords, but five minutes > later forgets all about it. How? That?s what happens when a person > doesn?t work on himself and strive to improve. > > Back to your present article, ?Emuna teaches us that everything > Hashem does is complete kindness and compassion; whether or not we > understand how or why doesn't alter that fact. The little girl's > Celiaks is no exception to that rule. Here's how: > > The great tzaddikim of the last 220 years - Chassidic masters and > Kabbalists alike - have told us that there are no new neshamot > (souls) in this generation. All of us are gilgulim (reincarnations) > of souls that require a tikkun, or soul correction, in emuna. > Therefore, the daughter's condition is an obvious test of the > mother?s emuna. > > As for the little girl with Celiaks, she - like the rest of us - is > here to correct a blemish in emuna from a previous gilgul. Yet, I > would venture to say that her tikkun is extremely fine, like the > final polishing of a diamond. In her former life, her blessings > after the meals and all her other mitzvas associated with bread were > probably so perfect that Hashem doesn't want them tampered with in > this gilgul. ? > > I lost my eldest sister a few years ago due to stomach cancer, 52 > years old and never sick a day in her life?? literally. At the > time, watching her waste away, I thought surely, out of all of us > siblings why did this have to happen to Shelia. She seemed to be so > much better then the other 8. But as I stood over her bed in the > last few minutes as she struggled to breathe her last few breaths, I > realized?.. you know this might not be about Shelia?? this is more > then likely, for the people she loved and who loved her, watching > her die. > > Have you ever been an outside player in another?s Tikkun. I > experienced a situation a few days ago, where I was placed in a > situation where events were set up, for a person to make some > choices?.. in a rather surreal way I was there and involved in the > situation but as an outside person watching, not able to influence > the outcome, for good or evil. After, the situation had played > it?s self out and I went on about my day?.. I was thinking?.. What > just happened?..? Something just took place on a higher or greater > plane then I was able to see. As I studied and thought on the > events I came to the conclusion, that whole situation was set up > for this person to make choices and decisions that would then lead > them on to the next place. It had nothing to do with me, per say. > I was just the d?cor, or other actor on the stage but it all had to > do with another person and their life choices. > > You could say?.. That?s far fetched?. Crazy and start humming the > music to the twilight zone, but I found it a unique experience and > this is not the first time either. > > Which, this leads me to another observation, when dealing with > life and death issue and health matters, I wonder how many times we > find ourselves fighting against God instead of just resting in > EMUNA(faith) and trusting him. > > Shalom, > > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:43 AM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom > > I've always (and continue to..) struggled with this sort of thing; > I thought you'd find it thought provoking - I wonder how you feel > about it...? > Hanoch > > > By: Rabbi Lazer Brody > > > > > > The editorial page of Breslev Israel 's English website > > Rebbe Natan writes (Likutei Halachot, Hilchot Hoda?a, 5) that > without emuna, one?s mind and thought process are in exile, chained > like a prisoner in captivity. One cannot escape such mental and > spiritual bondage by way of logic or reason?only by way of emuna, > can the mind terminate its exile and become free. > > With Rebbe Natan?s above principle in mind, we can understand why > Hashem reminds us in the first commandment ? the mitzvah of emuna ? > that He is the Lord our G-d that took us out of Egypt . So > mathematically, > > Emuna = freedom. > > Two years ago before Pesach, I received an unforgettable letter from > a mother whose 8 year-old daughter suffers from Celiaksdisease. The > daughter can?t digest gluten and therefore cannot eat any bread, > pasta, cakes, cookies, or anything with wheat- and/or grain-flour > additives. The mother bemoaned that her heart breaks whenever she > takes the little girl to a birthday party. All the little girl?s > friends are eating pizza and birthday cake with glee, and she's left > out. She watches her friends with a forced smile, says the mother, > but she's hurting inside. On Pesach, she can't eat matza. On > Shabbat, she can't eat challa. On Purim, she can?t eat Hamentashen. > > The next paragraph of the mother?s letter told me that the daughter > never said Birkat HaMazon (grace after meals, said only if bread was > eaten) in her life. She apologized for sounding blasphemous, writing > that she was sure Hashem forgives a brokenhearted mother, but then > she asked me her bombshell question: If Hashem is so kind and > compassionate, why would He torment a little girl with Celiak's? ?My > daughter is a little princess,? wrote the mother, ?what did she do > to deserve this terrible fate? I know that this may sound like a > trivial question compared to terminal diseases, bankruptcy, and > other people?s problems, but please, I need a good answer to > strengthen my faith!? > > Really, I was glad that the mother wrote for questions like make me > run to Hashem for the answer. I got up from the keyboard, grabbed my > jacket and hat, and went out to the desert for hitbodedut. > > The unpolluted Negev air is magnificent in the winter ? it cleans > the lungs and the brain. Surrounded by sand, sagebrush, and a > striking sunset, Hashem put an amazingly clear answer in my heart > for the mother of the Celiaks child. > > Emuna teaches us that everything Hashem does is complete kindness > and compassion; whether or not we understand how or why doesn't > alter that fact. The little girl's Celiaks is no exception to that > rule. Here's how: > > The great tzaddikim of the last 220 years - Chassidic masters and > Kabbalists alike - have told us that there are no new > neshamot(souls) in this generation. All of us are gilgulim > (reincarnations) of souls that require a tikkun, or soul correction, > in emuna. Therefore, the daughter's condition is an obvious test of > the mother?s emuna. > > As for the little girl with Celiaks, she - like the rest of us - is > here to correct a blemish in emuna from a previous gilgul. Yet, I > would venture to say that her tikkun is extremely fine, like the > final polishing of a diamond. In her former life, her blessings > after the meals and all her other mitzvas associated with bread were > probably so perfect that Hashem doesn't want them tampered with in > this gilgul. So, Hashem's considerations are absolute chessed > (loving-kindness) to keep your child's lofty place in the world to > come intact. Hashem is helping her to gain only, not to lose. > > Don't you wish people would offer us deals like that, where we'd > only gain and not lose? That's Hashem's loving nature; we can't look > at one act only. To understand, we have to view the script of the > entire play. In addition, we can't possibly see or fathom all of > Hashem's considerations. We must strengthen ourselves in emuna - > that's our job in this go-around. > > I wrote the mother my thoughts in a return email, and she said that > my answer made her feel substantially better and enabled her to make > peace with Hashem. > > There?s no guarantee that my thoughts were accurate about the little > girl?s previous lives. But one thing is true: Hashem enabled me to > show a fellow human being how the seemingly bad is certainly for the > best, which in itself is a mighty reinforcement of emuna. With > emuna, we?ll all attain true freedom this Passover. > > Meanwhile, although it's not easy, our friends that suffer from > Celiak?s should know that they can make matzo, pitas, or crackers > out of buckwheat(photo, left), which has no gluten. Also, there are > plenty oftips to make life with Celiaks easier and tastier. > > Emuna enables a person to keep a good frame of mind. Let?s not say > that a person is "sick with Celiaks". Let?s say he's healthy with > Celiaks. With emuna, we?ll see every blessing in this world and in > the next, amen! > > > (We invite you to visit Rabbi Lazer Brody?s award-winning daily web > journal, ?Lazer Beams?) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/b44c11a8/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 07:51:54 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:51:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher In-Reply-To: References: <849193.70843.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com><200904010522.n315MrJY018138@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: You did well, Margie. You were there with the truth, and people will respond to it, though it may take some time. I'm so glad that you and your husband are following HaShem together. What a blessing that is! Looking very forward to hearing further news as events unfold. Oftentimes even what appears to be a backward step, is in reality, a huge step forward. Please be encouraged, and may HaShem strengthen you mightily. Love, Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher Wonderful news, Margie! You stood strong and delivered the message to the preacher. May the words of Psalm 119:126 give him pause and haunt him until his eyes are opened and his heart be pricked by the these piercing words.and the knowledge that it was an answer to prayer about him. It is okay that you and your husband were relieved of the teaching.it sounds like this new leader (chosen by the class, probably not a coincidence), may be just the one who will continue to question and cause others to do so as well. The passages that Steve brought up in Ezekiel and Hosea are right to the point.it is really amazing when you think of all the solid teaching in these two books.wow! They are all about t'shuvah (repenting) and being restored to HaShem! May HaShem go before you and your husband, Margie. Please keep us updated on how the classes are going, etc., You will be in my prayers. Love and Shalom, Elisheva/Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Steve Mathe Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher Margie, Am glad you went back to the preacher and handed him the references to read. I hope it was pointed out on the note that the Psalm 119:126 was an answer to prayer about him. That will sit with him a while. It is a typical reaction, and he and his hermeneutics are the final arbiters of spiritual matters. We have all run into this. May the new leaders discover the often used phrase by Ezekiel, " And you shall know the L-rd." May they discover in Hosea that "Ephraim's people are destroyed by lack of knowledge, (Hos. 4:6). May the passage of Ephraim remaking the Covenant, "and thou shall know the L-rd," light up for them, ( Hos. 2:20). May the message to Ephraim: "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." (Hos. 6:6) jump out at them! We are most blessed that we have had our understanding opened to by His calling. May the new leaders be inspired by His Guidance! We will go on, and "as for our house, we will seek the L-rd." Steve At 08:41 PM 3/31/2009, you wrote: First of all, I'd like this group to know how much you mean to me again. Even though I don't post much, I feel such a connection with each one of you. We don't agree on everything but one thing we do share is a love for HaShem and His Torah. Again, thank you for the prayers. When we got to the preachers office, two members of the Bible study were there with him. They began by relieving us of our leadership role, which I could understand since we are not attending the church anymore. After some uncomfortable small talk they ended the meeting. As I was walking to the car with my Bible and scriptures I had written down I felt like I had to go back and share with the preacher. I asked him about a few of the scriptures I had written down.(Psalm 119:126 and more) He chose not to listen, he wasn't rude but I could tell he did not want to listen. I left the paper on his desk and I pray that he will look them up and that he will be stirred to seek the truth. We went to Bible study tonight and it was a bit weird. We love the people in the group and have decided to stay for now. We were able to finish the first five books which was a first for all of them. They decided we would quit reading through the Bible and do a study on the books of Hosea and Ezekiel! I nearly fell out of my chair! The leader they chose is the one person who always had a thousand questions about what we taught. He even emailed me a site about Ephraim a few months ago. Shalom, Margie _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/5993af62/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 07:57:38 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 23:57:38 +1100 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom Message-ID: Joe - they were amazing thoughts you wrote about projecting outwards. It's really helped me. Thank you. Suzie I too wonder how Yeshua did not fit into the Zohar concepts... Catherine x -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/c5926bc5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 08:11:08 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:11:08 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] In-Reply-To: <49D2D224.401@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040120091311.13311.49D367EC000258C6000033FF22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> No problem Joe, as I said, I learn much from your posts. If your electric bill can take it, let 'er rip! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Hanoch and Melanie, both of you have put forward some very valid reasons and ??? "who knows" arguments. If I may I would like to put a different twist to the subject. One that has helped me no end. In Kabbala there is the concept of "Ein Sof" Ein Sof (or Ayn Sof) (Hebrew ??? ???), in the Kabbalah, is understood as Infinite Divinity. Ein Sof may be translated as "no end", "unending" or Infinite. Ein Sof is the Divine Origin of all created existence: this is in contrast to the Ein (or Ayn), which is infinite no-thingness [1]. According to Gershom Scholem, Ein Sof is the Emanator of the sefirot. Sefirot are energy emanations found on the Kabbalist Tree of Life. Ayn Sof, the Ancient of All Ancients emanates the sefirot into the cosmic womb of the Ein in a manner that results in the created universe. >From this we see that all emanates from HaShem. Nothing that we do or say can add one minuscule to the reality of HaShem. He was and is and will be.He is within and without Himself. And yet..... ? ????-??????? ????????, ???????? ??????????????-- ?????? ???????????, ?????? ????????????. 4 When I behold Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, {N} the moon and the stars, which Thou hast established; ? ???-??????? ????-?????????????; ?????-?????, ???? ????????????. 5 What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou thinkest of him? ? ??????????????? ??????, ??????????; ???????? ??????? ?????????????. 6 Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. ? ??????????????, ??????????? ???????; ????, ??????? ?????-????????. 7 Thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet: ? ????? ?????????? ???????; ?????, ????????? ??????. 8 Sheep and oxen, all of them, yea, and the beasts of the field; ? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????, ???????? ???????. 9 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea; whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. ? ?????? ??????????: ???-??????? ???????, ??????-???????. 10 O LORD, our Lord, how glorious is Thy name in all the earth! Psalm 8 :4-10. My apologies John, I cannot post without scripture. I am helplessly devoted to this addiction. However, I will try and keep this short, Bli Neder. :-D This is a cornerstone scripture. Now comes the paradigm shift. As humans we tend to project inwards rather than projecting outwards. When we do this, even for the noblest of reasons, we are still tainted with ego. I , for one am guilty of this. My shoes are always ...... from stepping in it. When we say that we endure hardships in order to be refined and become better persons for it, whilst it does contain an element of truth in it, it is still bordering on the self. How do I feel, what did I get out of it,will I be saved, etc. When we endure for the sake of self, we have missed the plot. When we endure for the sake of others, then bull's eye. Creation was based on one element alone. HASHEM PROJECTED OUT FROM EIN SOF AND GAVE FORM TO HIS INDIVISIBILTY THROUGH MULTIPLICITY AND THEN TO BRING THAT MULTIPLICITY INTO UNITY THROUGH MAN - ADAM, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. That was the purpose of creation albeit in a very abstract explanation. This reflected on man being dependent on HaShem as the source of Ein Sof. This is reflected in the quoted Psalm above. There is a rabbinic dictum that a man must first engage in a profession, then build a house and then find a wife, similarly HaShem engaged in the profession of Creator, built the Earth to sustain mankind and then created them. Just think how we in the modern world have everything in the wrong order. Man had other ideas of creating his own reality based on independence and ego. Hence the fall and the need for redemption. So redemption is not from Egypt, Babylon, the nations. These serve as prototypes. The true redemption is from SELF. So, you may call it ego, yetzer hara, the satan, or whatever you may like. The antidote? Project yourself out..... away from self. Suffering comes to our aid as it teaches us empathy as a matter of due diligence and correction if need be. Some may view it purely as correction, but I prefer to see and understand the ramifications of empathy. This teaches me to be long suffering for the sake of others, to reach out beyond myself. HaShem is long suffering . Just imagine how He sees the world at this very moment and yet he projects out. This is the law of giving rather than taking. He sustains regardless. Now, back to suffering. Why ? What I can say is that the ultimate suffering is death. We aspired to independence in Gan Eden. At the moment of death we ultimately surrender our ego to HaShem and pronounce with our last breath our dependence on Him as sole sustainer of life. The purpose of life is to understand and experience this in the here and now. What better way to enact this than to give at the expense of self. This creates ECHAD or oneness. Those that are obedient will be worthy of redemption from death , both from a living death of walking in darkness and the sleeping death of eternity. His indivisibility must become our indivisibility. Why ? Because we were created in His image. Christianity is obsessed with personal redemption. Torah Judaism is dedicated to national redemption. As the rabbis teach : "the death of the righteous atones for the sins of the generation." The role of Mashiach is to be the catalst that unifies the Ein Sof of HaShem , through his rejection, suffering , death to self and resurrection to empathy. This is manifested not only in him but as the Yechida or the collective neshamot (souls) of his people Yisrael. As their representative all is bound in him. Please do not misconstrue this as Christian theology, because it is not, it is pure mystical Judaism. As the post is already way to long, if anyone is interested I will post them separately. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/66bbf166/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Wed Apr 1 08:16:33 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:16:33 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] This List Message-ID: <1898074527-1238591659-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356599045-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I just wanted to jump right in for a quick point. When I first began to think of this list I envisioned a respectful dialogue between Jews, Christians and those that are not quite in either camp. Sometimes that has not been the case, but I must say that lately I am seeing more of what should be. Truth is...some of us really are cans with no labels at this point (see Hez...I am reading along:). I am pleased to be part of this group where such a diverse group can come together in unity. I hope that everyone gets into the cycle of readings. I can tell you all that this practice will change you for the better. This coming Shabbat is a special Sabbath (Shabbat HaGadol) as it is the Sabbath before Pesach. The Haphtarah for Shabbat HaGadol contains a reading from Malachi which among other things speaks of a group that talks with one another often.....you are part of something special here and I hope that you make the most of it. Learn from one another and realize that conversation requires listening (reading with an open mind) as much as it requires speaking (or typing your own views as the case may be). Remember to express your views as such and try to understand where others are coming from. This site is not set up to convert others to your view, but rather to share your views. Be careful....you might just learn that you don't have it all figured out. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From oneillcody at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 08:18:15 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Obama's Muslim Outreach Message-ID: <332458.37679.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Obamas Muslim Outreach By Ted Belman One year ago I wrote about Obamas Muslim connection . No matter how strong this connection was, the main stream media and ultimately Jewish Americans ignored it. The person who made me proudest of all, Obama wrote, was Roy. Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam, and has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol. On February 27th, Barack Hussein Obama said the Muslim call to prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on Earth. Although Obama played he Christian card while campaigning, he is playing the Muslim card now in such a blatant fashion that even I am astounded. Here is his record to date after inaugeration, - Obamas first call was to Mahmoud Abbas who is not even a head of state. Obama was delivering a message to Israel and the world. - Obamas first interview, within days of inaugeration, was with the Dubai-based Al-Arabiya Networks In it her stressed his own Muslim ties and his hopes for a Palestinian state. His message was U.S. not your enemy And as I said during my inauguration speech, if countries like Iran are willing to unclench their fist, they will find an extended hand from us, - on Febuary 10th, Obama ordered the expenditure of $20.3 million in migration assistance to the Palestinian refugees and conflict victims in Gaza. - In February, he pledged to provide $900 million in aid for rebuilding the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip - On March 19th Obama delivered to customary speech to the Iranian people on their New Year but sold them out by referring to the Islamic Republic of Iran which amounted to an acceptance of the regime. - Obama has been reaching out to Syria for some time now but in the last two months he has matched words with deeds, He has lifted sanctions on Syria and intends to meet personally with Assad hereby bringing him in from the cold. He wants to see if Syria is serious about peace, which means breaking from Iran, in which case he will force Israel to give up the Golan. - Obama has also been calling Erdogan and Gull in Turkey looking to imrpove relations with Turkey. He praised Erdogan for his efforts at peace making between Syria and Israel and wants him to continue. He is looking to Turkey to help with Iran and Afghanistan and to permit US forces to exit Iraq throught Turkey. Essentially this outreach is intended to upgrade the relationship between the US and the Muslim world which will necessitate downgrading the relationship with Israel. For decades now this is what the State Department has wanted but couldnt say so publically. As I pointed out in Give the Palestinians what they want or else , there is a coordinated attack under way to bring about the downgrading of the US/Israel relationship. In the last few weeks, I posted many articles which made this point. Here are two. The West is tiring of Israel I have every reason to believe, based on what Ive seen at my level of clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own& or worse. When asked what could be worse than losing the support of the United States, he stated: when our administration provides more support to Arab countries financial and military aid, undercutting Israels defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation. CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years The CIA report predicts an inexorable movement away from a two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable peace in the region. These are only a few of the articles published since Obamas inaugeration which provide the handwriting on the wall. The core issue that the West is now recognizing is that given the emnity of the Arabs to the state of Israel, the Sate of Israel is doomed and shouldnt be supported to the detriment of the US. Debka reported this week, Obama set to betray Israel, big time Mar 29th DEBKAfiles Washington sources report that the Obama administration is on the threshold of a major rapprochement with Tehran, a reversal of US policy dramatic enough to block out international sanctions. Iran will be allowed to keep its nuclear program, including military elements and enriched uranium stocks, up to the point of actually assembling a weapon. The US president is willing to ditch Israel as a friend. This will be brought home to Jerusalem when he makes his big speech on April 7 appealing for a grand US-Muslim global reconciliation. The US president is preparing to tie a Palestinian-Israeli settlement - on Washingtons terms - to such unrelated issues as Afghanistan and Pakistan as the currency for purchasing Muslim and Arab backing for accommodations of these outstanding terrorist fronts. To lend wings to Obamas outreach to the Muslims, White House circles Monday, March 30, leaked word that his team took a hand in persuading Israel to accept a ceasefire which cut short its anti-Hamas operation in Gaza in January. The radical Islamist terrorists had to be spared from total defeat by Israel and their leaders from capture otherwise Assad, as their backer, would be restrained from resuming peace talks with Israel for some time. The ceasefire gave Assad enough political room to continue the negotiations without losing credibility in the Arab world. Its not going to get better. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 08:38:12 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 13:38:12 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher In-Reply-To: <849193.70843.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040120091338.23601.49D36E440004320D00005C3122218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Margie, I am in something of a similar position right now with the group I have been working with on Sunday, although I was the one that needed to initiate what I hope to be a temporary withdrawal. Carin and I have been feeling more and more compelled to observe Shabbat as it was intended, a day of rest and reflection of HaShem. While at the same time we are in the process of getting our house in a more marketable condition in preparation for our planned move the Israel (in G-d's good time). This work has pretty much filled up the rest of the weekend, so something had to give and I chose to take a hiatus from the Sunday group. In any case, what I wanted to say is that you need to be encouraged by all you have given these folks. In general, the Christian churches are beginning to experience an ever increasing exodus these days and I believe it is because people are beginning to ask questions that the church leadership is ill-prepared to answer without resorting to rote dogma or mystery explanations (you know, the ones that say G-d's ways are too hard for us to understand so it is best to just believe the church's rendition). The two greatest seeds that you could have planted in your group were G-d's Word as presented in the light of the Torah and the desire to ask the questions which will be answered in this light. There is no doubt in my mind that more and more people are going to be asking these questions. The problem is that most folks asking them today have no idea where to look for the real answers and are diving into all kinds of mysteriously miraculous prophesy movements where they will ultimately find themselves lost and disappointed once more. Many simply give up at this point and become disillusioned with their faith altogether, which leads to despair. Others bypass the replacement movements and go straight to despair. Finding out that you have been lied to for so long tends to leave a vacuum which must be filled. The best thing we can do is show them where to find the truth of G-d's Word where they can begin to fill the void with the only thing that will satisfy. I think you have done that. I gave each one in my group a copy of James' RAF book. HaShem will handle the rest. Shalom v'Brachot. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Margie Creech : -------------- First of all, I'd like this group to know how much you mean to me again. Even though I don't post much, I feel such a connection with each one of you. We don't agree on everything but one thing we do share is a love for HaShem and His Torah. Again, thank you for the prayers. When we got to the preachers office, two members of the Bible study were there with him. They began by relieving us of our leadership role, which I could understand since we are not attending the church anymore. After some uncomfortable small talk they ended the meeting. As I was walking to the car with my Bible and scriptures I had written down I felt like I had to go back and share with the preacher. I asked him about a few of the scriptures I had written down.(Psalm 119:126 and more) He chose not to listen, he wasn't rude but I could tell he did not want to listen. I left the paper on his desk and I pray that he will look them up and that he will be stirred to seek the truth. We went to Bible study tonight and it was a bit weird. We love the people in the group and have decided to stay for now. We were able to finish the first five books which was a first for all of them. They decided we would quit reading through the Bible and do a study on the books of Hosea and Ezekiel! I nearly fell out of my chair! The leader they chose is the one person who always had a thousand questions about what we taught. He even emailed me a site about Ephraim a few months ago. Shalom, Margie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/be3bc16f/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Wed Apr 1 09:04:13 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:04:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D3745D.70704@gninc.ca> Thank you Catheine Emuna is truly is great, when I some times feel exhausted and weary, I know that I am not where I could be in my trust in Hashem.. I am really thankful for this situation although it is rough. But the more I think of it, if it where not for bipolar in our family, in my wife right from the start in our marriage, I don't know where I would be, it is really a blessing in disguise. It is this illness that has brought me to a much stronger faith. Catherine, I wanted to write to you earlier in answer to your first cry for help concerning your father, my heart went out to you in prayer. Now coming from where you are, I don't know enough just where you are standing. I don't know if you are into Judaism, but as a Christian I used to think quite highly of Judaism, but in the back of my mind I felt Christianity was still superior. It was not even a question! There was a Pastor in a certain church who wanted to follow New Testament teaching on divine healing. One day he earnestly called out in prayer he was going to lay down his ministry if they could not have better results, because not 5% of people prayed for, who had laying on of hands etc., got healed. He has a book on this. I can't find it now. He started to search and found there usually was a connection to why we suffer these illnesses. He had some good results later. Now back to Judaism, and emuna. Rabbi Lazer Brody from Jerusalem, a strong advocate on emuna, one day got a notice from his sister that he should come to New York urgently, because their Father was on his death bed, the doctors had given him only a very short time to live. The Rabbi sent back a recipe for emuna, he did not need to go back to New York, his dad lived a couple of years longer yet if I recall right. But emuna, a deep trust in our maker, that He will not make a mistake which ever way it turns out with your Dad, is not out of place, it is that trust we put in Him. They say emuna means some thing 10 time stronger than what we have learned in the English language by the word "Faith". But He wants us to pray in this kind of trust which I am sure you do. I remember the time just before I was expelled from the church, because I realized they did not know the answer for help[ I was crying out for in regards to what I now know is bipolar. I didn't know it at that time, and for all the time we were married. The church leaders did not have the answer either. So they thought it must be me that is a problem.With bipolar, the vioctim can behave very properly in public, but usually mistrust those closest to them. So when they realized I was losing confidence in them to be led of the right spirit to deal with the situation, and knowing how they dealt with such people, I sensed they would expel me from the church. I was not even leaning toward Judaism at that time. I was very shy, and dreaded the thought of sticking out of all the rest of the church people as a sore thumb. But I will never forget the feeling or vision I had when I was first notified of how they felt. I felt like a little baby in my fathers arms. I remember how there was a clear vision of a dreadful reality that struck me, what was going to take place, but at that moment all was peace and calm,there was nothing to dread, I loved every one around me, it was a pure love of God beaming into my soul, I was in my Fathers arms. That experience took me a long way to go through that experience. I'll never forget it. They meant it well, and thought they were throwing out a life line to me. They had had a lot of success with it as they saw it. In fact they termed that being led by the Holy Spirit. And were confident that i would soon come back. That was one of the real tests of emuna in my life that I can now look back to, and I know now that my heavenly Father already had a plan for my future at that time. Yes, it would be a rugged road. But He has been faithfully leading me all along. Wishing you grace and comfort as though you are in the arms of Hashem, your Abba Father, and am praying for your situation. Cornie Catherine Cashmore wrote: > Hi Cornie, > > Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really > touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but > from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of > entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize > greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great > patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she > can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I > could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you > to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. > > I hope the message of emuna truly her. > > Catherine > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/aee722d9/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 1 09:35:42 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:35:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] This List In-Reply-To: <1898074527-1238591659-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356599045-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1898074527-1238591659-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356599045-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <684DDD83-A3DC-4BDB-96BD-3D44CF1E38CD@earthlink.net> I have been behind on reading through messages due to present duties at the university and was catching up some this morning. Before I even read your message here Ross, strange, but I was thinking the exact same thing, namely that your Dialogue group had really found its own legs and with a nice balance of view, levels of knowledge, and variety of experience. I really think the whole group is amazing! James On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: > I just wanted to jump right in for a quick point. When I first began > to think of this list I envisioned a respectful dialogue between > Jews, Christians and those that are not quite in either camp. > Sometimes that has not been the case, but I must say that lately I > am seeing more of what should be. Truth is...some of us really are > cans with no labels at this point (see Hez...I am reading along:). I > am pleased to be part of this group where such a diverse group can > come together in unity. I hope that everyone gets into the cycle of > readings. I can tell you all that this practice will change you for > the better. This coming Shabbat is a special Sabbath (Shabbat > HaGadol) as it is the Sabbath before Pesach. The Haphtarah for > Shabbat HaGadol contains a reading from Malachi which among other > things speaks of a group that talks with one another often.....you > are part of something special here and I hope that you make the most > of it. Learn from one another and realize that conversation requires > listening (reading with an open mind) as much as it requires > speaking (or typing your own views as the case may be). > > Remember to express your views as such and try to understand where > others are coming from. > > This site is not set up to convert others to your view, but rather > to share your views. Be careful....you might just learn that you > don't have it all figured out. > > Shalom, Ross > Sent via BlackBerry by > AT&T_______________________________________________ From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 09:41:03 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:41:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama's Muslim Outreach In-Reply-To: <332458.37679.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <332458.37679.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you for posting this, Cody. Since HaShem, Torah and Israel (both His Land and His People) are inextricably tied together, this article impacts us all. If the U.S. backs away from Israel politically, for what some in power may consider its own well-being in order to appease Islam, we are left in a difficult position. Though we love our country, and our families are deeply entrenched here, our hearts are set to follow the One True G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.........the G-d of Israel. Are we held responsible in His eyes for what our leaders do? Do we become guilty by association whether we back their treachery or not? Does a point come when, morally, we will be forced to physically separate ourselves from the evil our country intends against G-d's Land? I can see that the time we have for being able to get people to listen may be running out. If our leaders can sway the Nation to believe that Israel, and by extension, G-d and Torah, are its enemies, many, if not most, will stop listening to us. I did have encouraging news yesterday though. Someone to whom I had been talking about Tabor's book, Restoring Abrahamic Faith, said that she had now read it twice! Her face fairly lit up as she talked about it, and she wanted to know when his "Paul book" would be available. It seems that RAF is a tool that will turn hearts to HaShem, His Land, and His Torah. May He open more and more hearts to receive the words of this powerful little book, and may we get it into their hands. Love, Pat -------------------------------------------------- From: "cody oneill" Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:18 AM To: Subject: [Dialogue] Obama's Muslim Outreach > > Obamas Muslim Outreach > > > By Ted Belman > > One year ago I wrote about Obamas Muslim connection > > . No matter how strong this connection was, the main stream media and > ultimately Jewish Americans ignored it. > > The person who made me proudest of all, Obama wrote, was Roy. > Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he > decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam, and > has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol. > On February 27th, Barack Hussein Obama said the Muslim call to > prayer is one of the prettiest sounds on Earth. > > Although Obama played he Christian card while campaigning, he is > playing the Muslim card now in such a blatant fashion that even I am > astounded. > > Here is his record to date after inaugeration, > > - Obamas first call was to Mahmoud Abbas who is not even a head of > state. Obama was delivering a message to Israel and the world. > > - Obamas first interview, within days of inaugeration, was with the > Dubai-based Al-Arabiya Networks In it her stressed his own Muslim > ties and his hopes for a Palestinian state. His message was U.S. not > your enemy > > And as I said during my inauguration speech, if countries like Iran > are willing to unclench their fist, they will find an extended hand > from us, > - on Febuary 10th, Obama ordered > > the expenditure of $20.3 million in migration assistance to the > Palestinian refugees and conflict victims in Gaza. > > - In February, he pledged to provide $900 million > > in aid for rebuilding the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip > > - On March 19th Obama delivered to customary speech to the Iranian > people on their New Year but sold them out by referring to the > Islamic Republic of Iran which amounted to an acceptance of the > regime. > > - Obama has been reaching out to Syria for some time now but in the > last two months he has matched words with deeds, He has lifted > sanctions on Syria and intends to meet personally with Assad hereby > bringing him in from the cold. He wants to see if Syria is serious > about peace, which means breaking from Iran, in which case he will > force Israel to give up the Golan. > > - Obama has also been calling Erdogan and Gull in Turkey looking to > imrpove relations with Turkey. He praised Erdogan for his efforts at > peace making between Syria and Israel and wants him to continue. He > is looking to Turkey to help with Iran and Afghanistan and to permit > US forces to exit Iraq throught Turkey. > > Essentially this outreach is intended to upgrade the relationship > between the US and the Muslim world which will necessitate > downgrading the relationship with Israel. > > For decades now this is what the State Department has wanted but > couldnt say so publically. As I pointed out in Give the Palestinians > what they want or else > > , there is a coordinated attack under way to bring about the > downgrading of the US/Israel relationship. > > In the last few weeks, I posted many articles which made this point. > Here are two. > > The West is tiring of Israel > > > I have every reason to believe, based on what Ive seen at my level > of clearance especially over the last several years, that > Israel will soon be completely on their own& or worse. When asked > what could be worse than losing the support of the United States, he > stated: when our administration provides more support to Arab > countries financial and military aid, undercutting Israels > defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure > of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political > annihilation as a nation. > CIA report: Israel will fall in 20 years > > > The CIA report predicts an inexorable movement away from a > two-state to a one-state solution, as the most viable model based on > democratic principles of full equality that sheds the looming specter > of colonial Apartheid while allowing for the return of the 1947/1948 > and 1967 refugees. The latter being the precondition for sustainable > peace in the region. > These are only a few of the articles published since Obamas > inaugeration which provide the handwriting on the wall. The core > issue that the West is now recognizing is that given the emnity of > the Arabs to the state of Israel, the Sate of Israel is doomed and > shouldnt be supported to the detriment of the US. > > Debka reported this week, > > Obama set to betray Israel, big time > > Mar 29th > DEBKAfiles Washington sources report that the Obama administration > is on the threshold of a major rapprochement with Tehran, a reversal > of US policy dramatic enough to block out international sanctions. > Iran will be allowed to keep its nuclear program, including military > elements and enriched uranium stocks, up to the point of actually > assembling a weapon. > The US president is willing to ditch Israel as a friend. This will > be brought home to Jerusalem when he makes his big speech on April 7 > appealing for a grand US-Muslim global reconciliation. The US > president is preparing to tie a Palestinian-Israeli settlement - on > Washingtons terms - to such unrelated issues as Afghanistan and > Pakistan as the currency for purchasing Muslim and Arab backing for > accommodations of these outstanding terrorist fronts. > > To lend wings to Obamas outreach to the Muslims, White House > circles Monday, March 30, leaked word that his team took a hand in > persuading Israel to accept a ceasefire which cut short its > anti-Hamas operation in Gaza in January. The radical Islamist > terrorists had to be spared from total defeat by Israel and their > leaders from capture otherwise Assad, as their backer, would be > restrained from resuming peace talks with Israel for some time. > > The ceasefire gave Assad enough political room to continue the > negotiations without losing credibility in the Arab world. > > Its not going to get better. > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic > formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an > opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 11:14:58 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:14:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <1D3ADAD9-FE08-418E-B9D5-1E382B565D20@earthlink.net> References: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> <1D3ADAD9-FE08-418E-B9D5-1E382B565D20@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7C8E9D1289EE479CBE78BEBE73A1F33F@bettylaptop> Thank you dear James! I can hardly wait! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:09 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Glad you rambled Betty...and not just because I am you brother! See you soon. James On Apr 1, 2009, at 5:05 AM, Betty Givin wrote: Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute.that was several hours ago.I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem" tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B'Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d'var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t'shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger.and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes.I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah.loving HaShem with all that is in us.and teaching Him to our children. "when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up". But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond.with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we "live, move and have our being," to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant. "And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem." (Hosea again.2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he "wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride's finger." (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the "sign on the hand" referenced to in the Shema.and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses.not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage. I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam.that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit.that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list. and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things.my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn't ramble too much.anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep.busy days ahead.tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep.also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair. And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday. and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday.Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down.thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys.if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative.suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my.I have rambled.sorry.just tired. Thanks for indulging me.and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the 'delete' button. B'Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/330f02bf/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 11:20:13 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher In-Reply-To: <040120091338.23601.49D36E440004320D00005C3122218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <204208.14759.qm@web58501.mail.re3.yahoo.com> John,? ? Thank you so much for your words.? I doubt we will ever go to a Sunday church again.? We started keeping Sabbath in 1996.? It was hard not to work at first but now come Friday I am so ready for that time with HaShem.? I am somewhat of a work alcoholic and especially where my yard and vegetable garden are concerned.? I felt guilty about doing no work at first but have found it is a delight to be able to sit and read the Torah, pray, rest, just sit and meditate without being bothered by thoughts of what I should be doing.? It is funny but all that stuff I thought I had to get done on Saturday is still there on the first day of the week and I declare it seems like I get alot more done now.? I mean no disrespect to this preacher and I do pray that he will listen to G-d, but after talking to him and having some time to consider all that he said, I don't think he has much understanding at all.? He seemed to understand?even less than your average preacher.? I would ask him about Scriptures and unless he was faking, he had no idea what I was talking about.? I may still send him emails now and then if the L-rd moves me in that direction.? I do feel a burden for the ones who are too afraid to even question what they believe.? Sometimes I feel like putting them in a choke hold and making them at least look at what the Word says, but I don't think that's from the L-rd.? I am thankful that we are still welcomed at the Bible study even if not as leaders, it may actually be better to just be a student and able to ask questions.? HaShem knows what he is doing and I feel very encouraged thanks to all of your prayers and words of encouragement.? I too feel an urgency to do all that?I can?as time is quickly becoming darker.?? I will?be praying for you and Carin.? ? Margie? --- On Wed, 4/1/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] visit with the peacher To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 8:38 AM Hey Margie, ? I am in something of a similar position right now with the group I have been working with on Sunday, although I was the one that needed to initiate what I hope to be a temporary withdrawal. ? Carin and I have been feeling more and more compelled to observe Shabbat as it was intended, a day of rest and reflection of HaShem.? While at the same time we are in the process of getting our house in a more marketable condition in preparation for our planned move the Israel (in G-d's good time).? This work has pretty much filled up the rest of the weekend, so something had to give and I chose to take a hiatus from the Sunday group. ? In any case, what I wanted to say is that you need to be encouraged by all you have given these folks.? In general, the Christian churches are beginning to experience an ever increasing exodus these days and I believe it is because people are beginning to ask questions that the church leadership?is ill-prepared to answer without resorting to rote dogma or mystery explanations (you know, the ones that say G-d's ways are too hard for us to understand so it is best to just believe the church's rendition). ? The two greatest seeds that you could have planted in your group were G-d's Word as presented in the light of the Torah and the desire to ask the questions which will be answered in this light.? There is no doubt in my mind that more and more people are going to be asking these questions.? The problem is that most folks asking them today have no idea where to look for the real answers and are diving into all kinds of mysteriously miraculous prophesy movements where they will ultimately find themselves lost and disappointed once more.??Many simply give up at this point and become disillusioned with their faith altogether, which leads to despair.? Others bypass the?replacement movements and go straight to despair. ? Finding out that you have been lied to for so long tends to leave a vacuum which must be filled.? The best thing we can do is show them where to find the truth of G-d's Word where they can begin to fill the void with the only thing that will satisfy.? I think you have done that. ? I gave each one in my group a copy of James' RAF book. ? HaShem will handle the rest. ? Shalom v'Brachot. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from Margie Creech : -------------- First of all, I'd like this group to know how much you? mean to me again.? Even though I don't post much, I feel such a connection with each one of you.?? We don't agree on everything but one thing we do share is a love for HaShem and His Torah.? Again, thank you for the prayers.? When?we got to the preachers office, two members of the Bible study were there with him.? They began by relieving us of our leadership role, which I could understand since we?are not?attending the church anymore.? After some uncomfortable small talk they ended the meeting.? As I was walking to the car with my Bible and scriptures I had written down I felt like I had to go back and share with the preacher.? I?asked him about a few of the scriptures?I had?written down.(Psalm 119:126?and more)? He chose not to listen, he wasn't rude but I could tell he did not want to listen.??? I left the paper on his desk and I?pray that he will look them up and that he will be stirred to seek the truth.? We went to Bible study tonight and it was a bit weird. We?love the people in the group and have decided to stay for now. We were able to finish the first five books which was a first for all of them.?They decided we would quit reading through the Bible and do a study?on the books of?Hosea and Ezekiel!? I nearly fell out of my chair!? The leader they chose is the one person who always had a thousand questions about what we taught.? He even emailed me a site about Ephraim a few months ago. ? Shalom, Margie _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/e80d3fc2/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Apr 1 11:41:31 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:41:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request In-Reply-To: <692795.98789.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <692795.98789.qm@web58505.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Wonderful opportunity to share what you now know. Hopefully some will accept & try to learn with an open mind. Maybe U could offer a copy of James , Abrahamic Faith Book.??? Will pray for a wonderful outcome, or at least a start, which "would be " a wonderful outcome. Dick L Please in touch. ----- Original Message ----- From: Margie Creech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request I'll give you just a little history of what has been happening the last few months in regards to my request for prayer. My husband and I started going to a Sunday church and only lasted a couple of months before we quit going because of the teaching. However, before we quit going they asked us to lead a home Bible study. I couldn't believe they asked us, not knowing anything about us. I had been praying for months that HaShem would raise up a group of people that wanted to study and that eyes would open through reading His Word. I have found that most "christians" have never read the Word and if they have it was NT only. We had the group over last year for Passover and Sukkot. They continued to allow us to be leaders of this group, even though every week they were becoming more and more uneasy. They would pull out a verse here and there and would never keep it in context to prove that HaShem's teaching was done away with. When we asked them to read the verse in context they would, but it didn't matter. I understand where they are coming from because I have been there myself. It is hard thing to admit that most everything you believed all your life is a lie. It has taken me 16 years to shed much of what I believed and I find myself still letting go of beliefs I thought were true. I love these people and truely believe that a few of them see the truth but are afraid to let go. Yesterday we got a call from the preacher and he wants to meet with us today because some of the members of the group have expressed concerns about what we are teaching. I knew this was coming and welcome the chance to talk to him. But I need prayer! Please pray that I will listen to HaShem and say only what He puts in my mouth(that will be a miracle) and that He will open the eyes of this preacher. I have know doubt of his love for HaShem. The meeting is at 1:00 pm. Thank you in advance and I am so thankful for each one of you. I know I can ask for prayer and it is a done deal. Margie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 03/31/09 13:05:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/a134f592/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 14:14:52 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <999024.86141.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, ? I have noticed that many of you have suggested Margie give this pastor a copy of James book RAF. I want to share with you a recent response that I received when I shared the book with others. ? My Rabbi and his wife are some of my closest and dearest friends. I have spent countless hours with them in their home and my home, going on trips and vacations with them, sharing family events with them and studying and worshipping with them. They are believers in Yeshua as Messiah and that the Torah is eternal, to be observed not done away with. Rabbi was raised Orthodox and is Jewish and never was a Christian. ? About a month after reading the book I gave it to my friend(the wife of my Rabbi) and asked her to read it. I told her that she wouldn't agree with everything in it but to read it with an open mind as there were very good points in it that needed to be considered. We have been able to have many conversations about just these points before. That very night she called me screaming and ranting and stated that she wanted to throw the book against the wall. She went on? for at least an hour. ? Within two days my husband and I were called to their home to discuss their concerns that they were having about us. I cried the whole night before the meeting. All I could think was, "here we go again. We are about to lose friends and community because we dare to think different and are?willing to listen and learn from others who don't see everything the way we do. That it was this very willingness that Hashem used to bring us to them. We discussed Scriptures that James cited in his book. Basically they told us they were holding us accountable from going down the wrong path.(Christianity anyone?) My husband and I just shut up, listened and they agreed that it was our right to continue to explore. ? Hearing the information that Margie shared with us regarding the pastor I do not feel he is anywhere near ready to handle the book objectively. In fact it might have the opposite effect. ? Susie --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 9:41 AM Wonderful opportunity to share what you now know. Hopefully? some will accept & try to learn with an open mind. ? Maybe U could offer a copy of James , Abrahamic Faith Book.???? Will pray for a wonderful outcome, or at least a start, which "would be?" a wonderful outcome.? Dick L????? Please in touch.? ----- Original Message ----- From: Margie Creech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:51 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Prayer request I'll give you just a little history of what has been happening the last few months in regards to my request for prayer.? My husband and I started going to a Sunday church and only lasted a?couple of?months before we quit going because of the teaching.?However, before we quit going they asked us to lead a home Bible study. I couldn't believe?they asked us, not knowing anything about us.?I had been praying for?months that HaShem would raise up a group of people that wanted to study and that eyes would open through reading His Word.? I have found that most "christians" have never read the Word and if they have it was NT only.? We had the group over last year for Passover and Sukkot.? They continued to allow us to be leaders of this group, even though every week they were becoming more and more uneasy.? They would pull out a verse here and there and would never keep it in context to?prove that HaShem's teaching was done away with.? When we asked them to read the verse in context they would, but it didn't matter.? I understand where they are coming from because I have been there myself.? It is hard thing to admit that most?everything you believed all your life is a lie.? It has taken me 16 years to shed much of what I believed and I find myself still letting go of beliefs I thought were true.? I love these people and truely believe that a few of them see the truth but are afraid to let go.? Yesterday we got a call from the preacher and he wants to meet with us today because some of the members of the group have expressed concerns about what we are teaching.?I knew this was coming and welcome the chance to talk to him.? But I need prayer!? Please pray?that I will?listen to HaShem and say only what He puts in my mouth(that will be a miracle) and that He will open the eyes of this preacher.? I have know doubt of his love for HaShem.? The meeting is at 1:00 pm.? Thank you in advance and I am so thankful for each one of you.? I know I can ask for prayer and it is a done deal.? ? Margie _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2033 - Release Date: 03/31/09 13:05:00 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/bd877034/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 1 18:11:26 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:11:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> References: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <009501c9b31f$30399d10$90acd730$@com> Thank You Elisheva, in a world filled with data, information, and knowledge, this is WISDOM - the Ten Words. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:05 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute.that was several hours ago.I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem" tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B'Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d'var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t'shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger.and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes.I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah.loving HaShem with all that is in us.and teaching Him to our children. "when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up". But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond.with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we "live, move and have our being," to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant. "And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem." (Hosea again.2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he "wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride's finger." (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the "sign on the hand" referenced to in the Shema.and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses.not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage. I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam.that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit.that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list. and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things.my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn't ramble too much.anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep.busy days ahead.tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep.also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair. And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday. and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday.Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down.thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys.if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative.suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my.I have rambled.sorry.just tired. Thanks for indulging me.and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the 'delete' button. B'Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/84e13eff/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 18:38:58 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:38:58 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] Message-ID: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/5f509b3e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: susie getskow Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Size: 26187 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/5f509b3e/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 18:41:23 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:41:23 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections] Message-ID: <49D3FBA3.6000600@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/3f5f9bc4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 04:05:23 -0500 Size: 23008 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/3f5f9bc4/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 18:54:30 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 09:54:30 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] This List] Message-ID: <49D3FEB6.7050608@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/832ece99/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ross Nichols" Subject: [Dialogue] This List Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 13:16:33 +0000 Size: 5594 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/832ece99/attachment.eml From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 1 19:48:58 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:48:58 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] In-Reply-To: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> References: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: This was wonderful, Joe. I think it brilliant to realize that the search should be to find the Tanach IN Jesus, or any sage, and not to try to find Jesus in every Scripture of Tanach. Thank you so much for this precious jewel of wisdom. ~ Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] Shalom Susie, you brought up some very interesting issues. I will try and address each one. 1) The object is to be in the world but not of the world. Unfortunately this statement has much Christian encrustation and overlay placed upon it. Before going any further I would suggest you read one of my previous postings by Rabbi Natan Weisz entitled " How to look for holiness." Christianity has this uncanny tendency to lift man up to HaShem. There is this obsession with the afterlife or Heaven. This obsession was inherited from the Greeks. On the other hand Torah Judaism is about bringing HaShem and His Kingdom down to man and to make it a reality in the here and the now. Heaven on Earth. The Olam Haba or the world to come will come but as a continuation of this life. So our task is to bring the holy into every facet of our lives, from spiritual service to our family life, to our work , to our friendships and to our leisure time. Every aspect of our lives must be redeemed including time. 2) Torah observance( not Torah belief) was given to set us apart from the world but it was never really about us even though it is the tool( for lack of a better word) that can lift ourselves above this world in everyday existance. The ultimate is to filll the vessel(body) with the light of Torah for the world to see and know the Holiness of Hashem. The Torah was given to Israel and was rejected by the world. You cannot fill the vessel with light if the vessel is shattered. The Jewish concept of "tikkun" or repair is what this is all about. There must be a rectification and repair before any light can shine. Torah is the method of tikkun. The Torah was never meant to lift anybody let alone Israel above the worldly every day existence. It was meant to be mingled with the world in order to repair and heal the world. Rev 22 : 1-5 Israel as the receivers of this revelation of Torah are the light bringers of Torah to the nations. In Torah there is no separation of religion and state. Israel's diaspora into the world, whilst being part of their repair brought Torah to the nations. So therefore what was seen as negative actually turns out to be positive. They never deviated from their mission.Baruch HaShem. If you could share your insights of how Yeshua did not fit into the Zohar concepts I would like to hear them because I cannot see how he didn't.( Not Christian theology). If you look for Yeshua in Zohar, you will not find him. The key is to find Zohar in Yeshua and all the other tzadikkim of their generations. This is again a throwback from Christianity that tried to fit and squeeze and bulldoze J-E-S-U-S into every possible scripture known to man from the Tanach. The key again is to find the Tanach in Yeshua. These are just my thoughts and not necessarily the final say on the matter. I posted a three part series last year on "the Suffering of Mashiach"on the dialogue list. I do not know if you were a member then. If not, I would be more than happy to repost them again. They are very interesting and a real eye opener. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/faa31eeb/attachment.html From MELA91E at aol.com Wed Apr 1 19:50:32 2009 From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:50:32 EDT Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] Message-ID: Hi Joe, Fantastic stuff and I am going to have to read over what you have written a few times to fully get my head around it and properly formulate my thoughts (Grin - that's not a reflection on your post but on me and my waffle mind.). At base level it initially reads as similiar to some of the buddhist material and concepts I have had to study in the past - although I realise of course that the emphasis at root is in an entirely different place, being more grounded rejection of ego - that is to say it is still one versed in a physicality as opposed to much buddhist and shinto thought. I admit to not having done much real study beyond very basic concepts of Kabbalah and the Zohar, and from what you have posted it is something I think I would find much of interest in and certainly something I will need to look at. Anything you can share on this will be well recieved and of interest to me certainly. Thanks for putting this on the table - I really appreciate it and can I just say I love your posts and am finding much of great insight and interest in them, let me say that the longer the better as far as I am concerned. Best Melanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/ca0eb85c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 20:06:23 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:06:23 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1] Message-ID: <49D40F8F.6060507@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/9b52a505/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 1 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:38:54 +1000 Size: 9688 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/9b52a505/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 20:06:37 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:06:37 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH PART 2.] Message-ID: <49D40F9D.6090703@westnet.com.au> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH PART 2. Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:39:10 +1000 Size: 8579 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/6b7948fe/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 1 20:06:51 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:06:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3.] Message-ID: <49D40FAB.1020401@westnet.com.au> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3. Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:39:21 +1000 Size: 10053 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/9d25211d/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 20:15:50 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:15:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <040220090115.11631.49D411C4000C7E3F00002D6F22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Elisheva, It's good to have you back, even if it is intermittently. You ramble away and we'll learn. Brachot v'Ahavat to you and George. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute?that was several hours ago?I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem? tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B?Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d?var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t?shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger?and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes?I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah?loving HaShem with all that is in us?and teaching Him to our children? ?when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up?. But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond?with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we ?live, move and have our being,? to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant? ?And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem.? (Hosea again?2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he ?wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride?s finger.? (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the ?sign on the hand? referenced to in the Shema?and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses?not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage? I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam?that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit?that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list? and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things?my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn?t ramble too much?anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep?busy days ahead?tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep?also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair? And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday? and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday?Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down?thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys?if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative?suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my?I have rambled?sorry?just tired. Thanks for indulging me?and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the ?delete? button? B?Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/a4417898/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 20:27:14 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:27:14 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] SUFFERING of MASHIACH. PART 3.] In-Reply-To: <49D40FAB.1020401@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040220090127.5428.49D41471000AA3270000153422243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, I remember this discussion well. Great stuff! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/c681e6ba/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 20:35:45 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:35:45 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] In-Reply-To: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040220090135.23241.49D41670000A6F5D00005AC922243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, I agree whole-heartedly with almost everything you said. The only curiosity is that you said the key is finding "Zohar in Yeshua". I guess I am in full agreement with the concept of finding Tanach in Yeshua as opposed to finding Yeshua in Tanach. I'm not so sold on finding Zohar in Yeshua. While I respect the Kabbalistic interpretations of the Tanach, I don't equate the two. Whatcha think? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Susie, you brought up some very interesting issues. I will try and address each one. 1) The object is to be in the world but not of the world. Unfortunately this statement has much Christian encrustation and overlay placed upon it. Before going any further I would suggest you read one of my previous postings by Rabbi Natan Weisz entitled " How to look for holiness." Christianity has this uncanny tendency to lift man up to HaShem. There is this obsession with the afterlife or Heaven. This obsession was inherited from the Greeks. On the other hand Torah Judaism is about bringing HaShem and His Kingdom down to man and to make it a reality in the here and the now. Heaven on Earth. The Olam Haba or the world to come will come but as a continuation of this life. So our task is to bring the holy into every facet of our lives, from spiritual service to our family life, to our work , to our friendships and to our leisure time. Every aspect of our lives must be redeemed including time. 2) Torah observance( not Torah belief) was given to set us apart from the world but it was never really about us even though it is the tool( for lack of a better word) that can lift ourselves above this world in everyday existance. The ultimate is to filll the vessel(body) with the light of Torah for the world to see and know the Holiness of Hashem. The Torah was given to Israel and was rejected by the world. You cannot fill the vessel with light if the vessel is shattered. The Jewish concept of "tikkun" or repair is what this is all about. There must be a rectification and repair before any light can shine. Torah is the method of tikkun. The Torah was never meant to lift anybody let alone Israel above the worldly every day existence. It was meant to be mingled with the world in order to repair and heal the world. Rev 22 : 1-5 Israel as the receivers of this revelation of Torah are the light bringers of Torah to the nations. In Torah there is no separation of religion and state. Israel's diaspora into the world, whilst being part of their repair brought Torah to the nations. So therefore what was seen as negative actually turns out to be positive. They never deviated from their mission.Baruch HaShem. If you could share your insights of how Yeshua did not fit into the Zohar concepts I would like to hear them because I cannot see how he didn't.( Not Christian theology). If you look for Yeshua in Zohar, you will not find him. The key is to find Zohar in Yeshua and all the other tzadikkim of their generations. This is again a throwback from Christianity that tried to fit and squeeze and bulldoze J-E-S-U-S into every possible scripture known to man from the Tanach. The key again is to find the Tanach in Yeshua. These are just my thoughts and not necessarily the final say on the matter. I posted a three part series last year on "the Suffering of Mashiach"on the dialogue list. I do not know if you were a member then. If not, I would be more than happy to repost them again. They are very interesting and a real eye opener. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/59e8a9db/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 20:44:18 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:44:18 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <54361.19196.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <49D24B7D.5060002@westnet.com.au> <54361.19196.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040220090144.10071.49D418720006AF290000275722243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/54ba3a67/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 1 20:51:59 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:51:59 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] GREAT!!! Matza Video In-Reply-To: <855590370903310619m5fa94f9blfc160d16ab9b667a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040220090151.26748.49D41A3E000C1B830000687C22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Excellent Hanoch! I passed it on ot the rest of the Goy's ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- REALLY GREAT!! Hanoch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMSEFCQCKPo&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/e0dd94c2/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 1 21:05:46 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] In-Reply-To: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <570816.78020.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Real quick while I ponder this. ? I stunk at algebra so bear with me. If 1=1 no matter how I flipped the equation the end result would and should be the same. ? Susie --- On Wed, 4/1/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:38 PM Shalom Susie, you brought up some very interesting issues. I will try and address each one. 1) The object is to be in the world but not of the world. Unfortunately this statement has much Christian encrustation and overlay placed upon it. Before going any further I would suggest you read one of my previous postings by Rabbi Natan Weisz entitled " How to look for holiness." Christianity has this uncanny tendency to lift man up to HaShem. There is this obsession with the afterlife or Heaven. This obsession was inherited from the Greeks. On the other hand Torah Judaism is about bringing HaShem and His Kingdom down to man and to make it a reality in the here and the now. Heaven on Earth. The Olam Haba or the world to come will come but as a continuation of this life. So our task is to bring the holy into every facet of our lives, from spiritual service to our family life, to our work , to our friendships and to our leisure time. Every aspect of our lives must be redeemed including time. ? 2) Torah observance( not Torah belief) was given to set us apart from the world but it was never really about us even though it is the tool( for lack of a better word) that can lift ourselves above this world in everyday existance. The ultimate is to filll the vessel(body) with the light of Torah for the world to see and know the Holiness of Hashem. The Torah was given to Israel and was rejected by the world. You cannot fill the vessel with light if the vessel is shattered. The Jewish concept of "tikkun" or repair is what this is all about. There must be a rectification and repair before any light can shine. Torah is the method of tikkun. The Torah was never meant to lift anybody let alone Israel above the worldly every day existence. It was meant to be mingled with the world in order to repair and heal the world. Rev 22 : 1-5 Israel as the receivers of this revelation of Torah are the light bringers of Torah to the nations. In Torah there is no separation of religion and state. Israel's diaspora into the world, whilst being part of their repair brought Torah to the nations. So therefore what was seen as negative actually turns out to be positive. They never deviated from their mission.Baruch HaShem. If you could share your insights of how Yeshua did not fit into the Zohar concepts I would like to hear them because I cannot see how he didn't.( Not Christian theology). If you look for Yeshua in Zohar, you will not find him. The key is to find Zohar in Yeshua and all the other tzadikkim of their generations. This is again a throwback from Christianity that tried to fit and squeeze and bulldoze J-E-S-U-S into every possible scripture known to man from the Tanach. The key again is to find the Tanach in Yeshua. These are just my thoughts and not necessarily the final say on the matter. I posted a three part series last year on "the Suffering of Mashiach"on the dialogue list. I do not know if you were a member then. If not, I would be more than happy to repost them again. They are very interesting and a real eye opener. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090401/3302aa48/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 1 21:10:04 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] This List In-Reply-To: <684DDD83-A3DC-4BDB-96BD-3D44CF1E38CD@earthlink.net> References: <1898074527-1238591659-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356599045-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <684DDD83-A3DC-4BDB-96BD-3D44CF1E38CD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6078147170B145E4A520F2EBA9B07C04@bettylaptop> Yes, amazing is a good word for this group, James! Thank you, Ross, for all you do and have done to make this possible. I have been enjoying your podcasts and your printed studies make for great study on Shabbat! Toda rabba, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] This List I have been behind on reading through messages due to present duties at the university and was catching up some this morning. Before I even read your message here Ross, strange, but I was thinking the exact same thing, namely that your Dialogue group had really found its own legs and with a nice balance of view, levels of knowledge, and variety of experience. I really think the whole group is amazing! James On Apr 1, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: > I just wanted to jump right in for a quick point. When I first began > to think of this list I envisioned a respectful dialogue between > Jews, Christians and those that are not quite in either camp. > Sometimes that has not been the case, but I must say that lately I > am seeing more of what should be. Truth is...some of us really are > cans with no labels at this point (see Hez...I am reading along:). I > am pleased to be part of this group where such a diverse group can > come together in unity. I hope that everyone gets into the cycle of > readings. I can tell you all that this practice will change you for > the better. This coming Shabbat is a special Sabbath (Shabbat > HaGadol) as it is the Sabbath before Pesach. The Haphtarah for > Shabbat HaGadol contains a reading from Malachi which among other > things speaks of a group that talks with one another often.....you > are part of something special here and I hope that you make the most > of it. Learn from one another and realize that conversation requires > listening (reading with an open mind) as much as it requires > speaking (or typing your own views as the case may be). > > Remember to express your views as such and try to understand where > others are coming from. > > This site is not set up to convert others to your view, but rather > to share your views. Be careful....you might just learn that you > don't have it all figured out. > > Shalom, Ross > Sent via BlackBerry by > AT&T_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 2 02:57:53 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 17:57:53 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]]] Message-ID: <49D47001.2030608@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:35:45 +0000 Size: 12958 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/5dbdecfd/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 2 03:22:28 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 18:22:28 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] Message-ID: <49D475C4.1090701@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/34b543f5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MELA91E at aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:50:32 EDT Size: 6874 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/34b543f5/attachment.eml From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Apr 2 04:31:43 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 04:31:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue]CORRECTION & QUESTIONS/ Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <009501c9b31f$30399d10$90acd730$@com> References: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> <009501c9b31f$30399d10$90acd730$@com> Message-ID: <7BC55210199B4FF98502EA262D7B26A2@bettylaptop> Hey Patty, thanks, but I made an error and need to correct it. In my post, I stated that Moshe was coming down from the Mountain and was holding the tablets with the Ten Words written by the finger of G-d when this occurred, but I was INCORRECT. A closer reading tonight showed me that Moshe was not descending the mountain, but rather had just gone up to Mt. Sinai with the second set of tablets that he had just cut in his hand and the tablets were blank. It was then, when Moshe held the blank tablets in his hands, that HaShem revealed Himself to him by proclaiming His Attributes (Ex. 34:4-7). Then at some time during or following a 40 day fast period and more instruction regarding keeping the covenant that He had made with Moshe and the children of Israel (including observance of the Feast of Passover) that HaShem wrote/engraved the Ten Words on the two tablets of Testimony (Ex. 34:10-29). The text states that Moshe then went down the mountain and his face shone (v.30).probably because he had had a special encounter with the Divine.more so than ever before.because HaShem had made Himself known to him by showing Him His Attributes. Interesting that in one rendition of the woman's' blessing after the Shabbat candle lighting is a request for the "Schekinah" or Divine Presence to "dwell among us," and also a prayer asking that the "glow of our faces never be dimmed," and asking HaShem to show us the Glow of His Face and we will be saved!" So, is that to say that when we say and live the Shema and keep covenant with HaShem that He dwells among us or in us and that that our faces can also in a sense, shine or radiate His goodness, because we, in some small sense are reflecting His nature when we reach out to one another in acts of love, mercy, graciousness, kindness, longsuffering, faithfulness. and when we strive to live by faith to continually seek truth? And as far as the blank tablets that Moshe had in his hands when HaShem chose to reveal His Attributes to him, could they perhaps signify a "clean slate," ready to be engraved with the Ten Words, which one day, will instead be engraved not on tablets of stone but on hearts of flesh, as He promised? And the beauty of all this, is that we each have the incredible opportunity every day that we live.fresh every morning. to cry out to HaShem, to do t'shuva (repent), to commune with Him, to invite His Presence into our lives and our hearts and to "know" Him, and in so doing help to light up the world with sparks of holiness! Just typing these words gives me chills.what an Amazing G-d we serve! Any thoughts along these lines? Shalom v'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:11 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Thank You Elisheva, in a world filled with data, information, and knowledge, this is WISDOM - the Ten Words. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:05 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute.that was several hours ago.I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem" tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B'Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d'var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t'shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger.and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes.I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah.loving HaShem with all that is in us.and teaching Him to our children. "when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up". But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond.with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we "live, move and have our being," to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant. "And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem." (Hosea again.2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he "wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride's finger." (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the "sign on the hand" referenced to in the Shema.and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses.not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage. I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam.that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit.that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list. and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things.my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn't ramble too much.anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep.busy days ahead.tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep.also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair. And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday. and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday.Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down.thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys.if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative.suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my.I have rambled.sorry.just tired. Thanks for indulging me.and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the 'delete' button. B'Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/1dd4e5d2/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 2 04:55:52 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 19:55:52 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]] Message-ID: <49D48BA8.1060606@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/2080c0de/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 01:44:18 +0000 Size: 11859 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/2080c0de/attachment.eml From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 2 07:27:30 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:27:30 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]] In-Reply-To: <49D48BA8.1060606@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040220091227.17493.49D4AF31000EBFF80000445522218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, Thanks for the snack! ;-{)} No argument at all that HaShem has written into nature many lessons that those who diligently study and meditate on His Word (especially to the level of the Rabbi's and even moreso, the Sages) will recognize. I was responding to Susie's statement/question about the concept of being "set apart" as it applies to G-d's creation in general and it's relevance to the idea that everything G-d created has a function. Yes the pigs behavior can teach us important lessons about Torah but it does not mean that the pig is itself a hypocrite. The pig has no ability to chose for itself right or wrong, therefore it cannot say one thing and do another. So yes, the pig is "set apart" to perform a certain function which by HaShem's own Word, renders it unsuitable as food (whatever that function may be). But it is not intrinsically evil. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom John and Susie, just some more food for thought, no pun intended. There is a rabbinic teaching that follows the Chazir or pig. The pig, whilst it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud rendering it unclean. So the pig while wallowing in the mud will push its hooves forward and tell the world, look at me I am kosher!!!! This is an allusion to the hypocrite. Do not eat the food that comes out of his mouth for it is unclean. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/2d34d15f/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Thu Apr 2 07:30:13 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:30:13 +1100 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Message-ID: Cornie - Thank you so much for your message of hope, and your wisdom. Thankfully my family bought me up with a leaning towards Judaism, and it just developed from there. Although I have belief in Yeshua, my heart is grafted in with His people and certainly not 'main stream ' Christianity. Finding this website (this family) , and joining with you on this Dialogue list has been a wonderful blessing. I am learning new things everyday, and can relate so very much to the words you say about faith, trust, seeing HaShem as the loving father he is and submitting to Him completely. Your commitment to your wife is such a wonderful example. You're in my prayers, and I am so very needful and thankful for your friendship and prayers. I'm hanging on for dear life in Hope, trust and faith. Thank you everyone - Much Love, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/0a525009/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 2 07:51:09 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 12:51:09 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]]] In-Reply-To: <49D47001.2030608@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040220091251.11532.49D4B4BC000B054700002D0C22218865869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, Shalom. I'm with ya. Actually, I just re-read Susie's question and I see that she actually asked about Zohar to start with so I guess my comment was off-base, sorry. There is no doubt in my mind that the Zohar will present a clear window into the Jewish mysticism underlying much of the NT writings. But I guess I was speaking on a more fundamental level. When I think about the idea of finding Tanach in Yeshua (as opposed to finding Yesua in Tanach), I tend to limit that to the sayings attributed to Yeshua himself (mostly in the gospels). And yes one could argue that we don't know for sure that these are his actual words, but for this discussion let's just say they are. There is also no doubt that many concepts of Jewish mysticism can be found in his words as well. But I guess I was looking at the concept we were discussing as sort of ; "what are the minimum requirements?". Yes we may find Zohar in his words but in the context of what I thought was Susie's question, I think we MUST find Tanach there in order for him to qualify as a messiah. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom John, wadda I think ? Well it depends on who or what you are looking for. Personally I have learned more about Yeshua from the Zohar and Kabbalah than all the doctrines of Churchianity. The books of Revelation, Jude and the epistles of Peter are jammed packed full of Jewish mysticism. Many of Yeshua's teaching are also encrypted with mystical teachings. In my posts regarding the "Suffering of Mashiach" you can see this thread quite clearly. Keeping in mind that the Rabbis rejected the NT outright, it is amazing to read their commentary on this subject. Mysticism is the language of the prophets......it is the language of HaShem. It veils the deeper meaning of the metaphorical imagery that is engaged. Dreams and visions are also employed to convey deeper realities of HaShem's prophetic word. Please do not think that I sit down with a black pointy hat and a wand brewing up concoctions. Personally this information has given me a better understanding of Tanach and the ability to live the Tanach in a more practical sense. Used for head knowledge only can quickly lead one into heretical gnosticism. However, the "Kabbalah" - the receiving and the "Zohar" - the splendor / radiance must never be associated with the shysters of Kabboliwood. The Tanach is full of mysticism from the Garden of Eden, to the tree of knowledge and the tree of life, from the serpent to the forbidden fruit, from Yaacov's dreams to Yaacov's ladder, from Ezekiel's visions to Isaiah's Temple vision in chapter 6, from Moshe's encounter with the burning bush to Moshe's encounter with HaShem on Har Sinai. The evidence is compelling. Here is a very basic introduction to Kabbalah from Aish. I really do not want people to get stuck on this as without the proper foundation of Torah all is in vain. http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/Kabbala_1_-_What_Is_Kabbala$.asp Kabbala #1 - What Is Kabbala? by Rabbi Shimon Leiberman Kabbala is the Torah's expression of the way the world works. Removed from its source, it's a whole lot of rubbish. (First in a series.) Most people have heard something or other about Kabbalah. But it is highly unlikely that what is going around in the general marketplace posing as Kabbalah is anywhere close to the real thing. What most people have been exposed to is a smorgasbord of pop psychology and self-help that pretends to have some connection to Jewish mysticism, but it rarely, if ever, does. It is easy to see how people are fooled. In most disciplines, you expect to know and understand something after studying it. But when it comes to mysticism, people expect to be mystified. So they are willing to accept incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo. Kabbalah is supposed to be mysterious and enigmatic. It's mysticism after all! So much nonsense is presented in the name of Kabbalah, it is important to have some sort of forum where people can find the basic understandings that they crave. In this series, we will attempt to present the central ideas of Jewish mysticism in a methodical and intelligent manner, minimizing abstruse terminology and shying away from a sense of the incomprehensible. WHAT KABBALAH IS AND ISN'T In order to understand what Kabbalah is and what it isn't, let us use the following illustration. A researcher sits in his lab examining all sorts of atomic phenomena. He smashes atoms at great speeds, and records what he sees happening. He is very meticulous in his work, and may even draw some immediate conclusions from the data at hand. But he leaves it at that. A great scientist picks up these notes, reads them and ponders their meaning. He begins to construct a mega-picture. He tries to envision what the entire system may be like. He knows that there are no instruments, nor can there be, to actually see the particles he imagines, and therefore he gropes for metaphors that will accurately connect the bits of data that the physicist collected. Thus, he begins to speak of "super strings," "atomic tunnels," "energy bridges," and "ten dimensions." A third person, who has a highly fertile mind but with no sense of science, is eavesdropping. His imagination has been fired and, in no time at all, he is carrying forth about people that have mysteriously disappeared in "atomic tunnels," and unlimited sources of energy contained in various of the "ten dimensions." These three people illustrate the different approaches to Kabbalah. The "data" or facts that Kabbalah deals with are the narrative of the Torah, and its entire body of religious law. The "researcher" represents a person who sees the laws and narrative as they are, understands their immediate meaning, but does not get the larger picture. The "great scientist" represents the Kabbalist who sees the various local points and then begins to get a feel for the greater picture. He needs metaphors to describe the abstract unity he perceives, and he is aware that this tool is likely to be vague and only approaching the understanding that he has acquired. Although limited by the tools at his disposal, the complex picture the great scientist communicates can still give us a sense of the reality that he is grappling with. And then there is the pseudo-Kabbalist -- "the eavesdropper" -- whose Kabbalah is basically unrelated to Torah, except perhaps as a springboard for his imagination. He has discovered "sources of energies," "divine emanations," and ways to "expand consciousness," but it all stems from his fanciful illusions. IN SUMMARY Kabbalah is to Torah what philosophy is to science. Like science, the Torah gives us the facts that are fully perceived sensually and rationally quantifiable. Like philosophy, Kabbalah gives us the grander abstract picture that the facts present. The upcoming segments of this series will be exploring some of the fundamentals of Kabbalah. Rabbi Leiberman is a leading Jewish educator in Israel and abroad, and has written a number of works on Jewish thought and Kabbalah. This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/Kabbala_1_-_What_Is_Kabbala$.asp I hope that this information has been useful without creating too much distraction from the main topic at hand. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/6f44594b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/6f44594b/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/6f44594b/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/6f44594b/attachment-0002.gif From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Apr 2 08:07:20 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:07:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] CORRECTION & QUESTIONS/ Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections In-Reply-To: <7BC55210199B4FF98502EA262D7B26A2@bettylaptop> References: <076E268E3F774A999BD57600729CDEFF@bettylaptop> <009501c9b31f$30399d10$90acd730$@com> <7BC55210199B4FF98502EA262D7B26A2@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <013301c9b393$f6c43cf0$e44cb6d0$@com> Well, Elisheva, I noticed that you certainly seem to glow! Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 5:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue]CORRECTION & QUESTIONS/ Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Hey Patty, thanks, but I made an error and need to correct it. In my post, I stated that Moshe was coming down from the Mountain and was holding the tablets with the Ten Words written by the finger of G-d when this occurred, but I was INCORRECT. A closer reading tonight showed me that Moshe was not descending the mountain, but rather had just gone up to Mt. Sinai with the second set of tablets that he had just cut in his hand and the tablets were blank. It was then, when Moshe held the blank tablets in his hands, that HaShem revealed Himself to him by proclaiming His Attributes (Ex. 34:4-7). Then at some time during or following a 40 day fast period and more instruction regarding keeping the covenant that He had made with Moshe and the children of Israel (including observance of the Feast of Passover) that HaShem wrote/engraved the Ten Words on the two tablets of Testimony (Ex. 34:10-29). The text states that Moshe then went down the mountain and his face shone (v.30).probably because he had had a special encounter with the Divine.more so than ever before.because HaShem had made Himself known to him by showing Him His Attributes. Interesting that in one rendition of the woman's' blessing after the Shabbat candle lighting is a request for the "Schekinah" or Divine Presence to "dwell among us," and also a prayer asking that the "glow of our faces never be dimmed," and asking HaShem to show us the Glow of His Face and we will be saved!" So, is that to say that when we say and live the Shema and keep covenant with HaShem that He dwells among us or in us and that that our faces can also in a sense, shine or radiate His goodness, because we, in some small sense are reflecting His nature when we reach out to one another in acts of love, mercy, graciousness, kindness, longsuffering, faithfulness. and when we strive to live by faith to continually seek truth? And as far as the blank tablets that Moshe had in his hands when HaShem chose to reveal His Attributes to him, could they perhaps signify a "clean slate," ready to be engraved with the Ten Words, which one day, will instead be engraved not on tablets of stone but on hearts of flesh, as He promised? And the beauty of all this, is that we each have the incredible opportunity every day that we live.fresh every morning. to cry out to HaShem, to do t'shuva (repent), to commune with Him, to invite His Presence into our lives and our hearts and to "know" Him, and in so doing help to light up the world with sparks of holiness! Just typing these words gives me chills.what an Amazing G-d we serve! Any thoughts along these lines? Shalom v'Ahava, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 6:11 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Thank You Elisheva, in a world filled with data, information, and knowledge, this is WISDOM - the Ten Words. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:05 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Knowing HaShem...middle of the night reflections Dear friends, Unable to fall asleep after an incredibly full day, I got up and decided to study for my upcoming exam for my additional certification in my teaching field. But before I began I thought I would check email for a minute.that was several hours ago.I think HaShem had another plan in mind for me. In fact, Steve, I must tell you the references you made in your note to Margie from Ezekiel and Hosea regarding "knowing HaShem" tied in perfectly with the very passage that I have been asked to teach during our Torah study the Sunday after Passover in our B'Nai Mitzvah class. The passage for my d'var Torah (Torah study) that I am to bring to the class is Ex. 34:4-7. This passage is a familiar one to many and one of my favorite, as it never ceases to move me when I read it. It speaks of Moses coming down from the mountain the second time (second chance relating to t'shuvah) with the tablets in his hand, tablets on which HaShem wrote the Ten Words with His own Finger.and while Moses is holding these tablets (I imagine him holding them close to his chest where his heart resides), HaShem in answer to His request goes before Him and proclaims His Attributes.I get excited just picturing that magnificent event in my mind! I wanted to tie this event and this picture in with the Shema, which to me is the foundation of Judaism and of Torah.loving HaShem with all that is in us.and teaching Him to our children. "when we walk by the way, when we sit in our house, when we lie down and when we rise up". But, how can we teach about Him unless we first Know Him? And how can we know Him unless we are familiar with His Attributes, understanding their deeper Hebraic meanings, and incorporating them into our own lives? And as loving objects of His Creation, how should we then respond.with awe, with respect, and with obedience. Made in His Image, we endeavor with all that is in us to emulate our Loving Creator in whom we "live, move and have our being," to become one with Him as in a marriage covenant. "And I will betroth thee to me forever in righteousness and in judgment, and in loyal love, and in mercies. And I will betroth thee to me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know HaShem." (Hosea again.2:21-22). As a side note, these words are the words that every devout Orthodox Jewish man prays each morning as he "wraps the tefellin strap around the fingers in the manner of a groom putting the betrothal ring on his bride's finger." (taken from the Artscroll Siddur p. 8-9). This is the "sign on the hand" referenced to in the Shema.and to me, it clearly relates back to the Attributes of HaShem given in Ex. 34:4-7, and is a most beautiful picture of how HaShem wants us to relate to Him! Now, whether one is Jewish or not, it is my opinion that if one chooses to identify oneself with HaShem, Torah and Israel and her people, one can benefit much from all of these verses.not that non-Jews are to wrap tefellin, but that the Torah is for all and that we are all created in His Image. Baruch HaShem There is so much more to this concept of knowing HaShem and marriage and covenant, but to make it brief, the meaning is multi-layered as it has been said to symbolize the covenant HaShem made with the people at Mt. Sinai when He gave them His Ten Words or Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments. The people approached HaShem as a bride coming to the bridegroom and the commandments that were given served as the Ketuba or covenant of marriage. I have so many ideas flowing in my brain that my head is spinning and it is nearly 4:00am! And I am starting to feel fragmented. So much for studying for my exam.that is okay. I think my inability to sleep tonight had to do more with a restlessness in my spirit.that I needed to spend some time in reaching out and encouraging some on the list. and also that I needed to some quiet study and meditation time, not only in preparation for my upcoming class, but also for my own well being; and Steve, your email to Margie did indeed both remind and encourage me that it these things that are the truly important things.my coming exam pales in comparison! Hope I didn't ramble too much.anyway, I need to get a few hours sleep.busy days ahead.tomorrow (today) - exam prep, lesson planning for my tutoring, babysitting for my grandchildren in the evening; then Thursday, tutoring, Passover committee meeting and more exam prep; Friday, preparation for Shabbat and exam prep.also work on teaching resumes and prepare for Job Fair. And next week, Exam on Monday, granddaughter 9th birthday that pm; then squeeze in more lesson planning and tutoring on Tuesday in midst of committee work for seder at synagogue and my own housecleaning and making prep for home seder on Wednesday with congregational seder on Thursday. and Shabbat again on Friday/Saturday.Baruch HaShem!!! I will really be ready for Shabbat after that! But first I have to get thru the next few days so I can enjoy this Shabbat!!! Oh and sometime in there, I have to prepare for my class that I am teaching on Sunday, but at least I have a few ideas down.thanks for letting me bounce some of them off you guys.if any of you have any suggestions, I would be most appreciative.suggestions/comments and prayers are always appreciated. Oh my.I have rambled.sorry.just tired. Thanks for indulging me.and if you gave up somewhere in the middle, there is always the 'delete' button. B'Ahava rabba (with much love), Elisheva/Betty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/2ff80e8a/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Apr 2 08:28:31 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:28:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom = Selflessness? In-Reply-To: <49D2D224.401@westnet.com.au> References: <49D2D224.401@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <014401c9b396$ec36a400$c4a3ec00$@com> Shalom Joe, Thank you, this is very interesting. I am not sure about the ?selflessness? thing, though. Yeshua said ?Love your neighbor AS yourself?. I have found that in my life, I couldn?t truly love another until I learned to love myself. I couldn?t truly forgive another until I could forgive myself. Years ago I was so entrenched in his total selflessness that I believed I wasn?t accepted by HaShem unless I was in some state of suffering/destitution. Just my thoughts and maybe I need to grow in this area. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] Shalom Hanoch and Melanie, both of you have put forward some very valid reasons and ??? "who knows" arguments. If I may I would like to put a different twist to the subject. One that has helped me no end. In Kabbala there is the concept of "Ein Sof" Ein Sof (or Ayn Sof) (Hebrew ??? ???), in the Kabbalah, is understood as Infinite Divinity. Ein Sof may be translated as "no end", "unending" or Infinite. Ein Sof is the Divine Origin of all created existence: this is in contrast to the Ein (or Ayn), which is infinite no-thingness [1] . According to Gershom Scholem , Ein Sof is the Emanator of the sefirot . Sefirot are energy emanations found on the Kabbalist Tree of Life. Ayn Sof, the Ancient of All Ancients emanates the sefirot into the cosmic womb of the Ein in a manner that results in the created universe. >From this we see that all emanates from HaShem. Nothing that we do or say can add one minuscule to the reality of HaShem. He was and is and will be.He is within and without Himself. And yet..... ? ????-??????? ????????, ???????? ??????????????-- ?????? ???????????, ?????? ????????????. 4 When I behold Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, {N} the moon and the stars, which Thou hast established; ? ???-??????? ????-?????????????; ?????-?????, ???? ????????????. 5 What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou thinkest of him? ? ??????????????? ??????, ??????????; ???????? ??????? ?????????????. 6 Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. ? ??????????????, ??????????? ???????; ????, ??????? ?????-????????. 7 Thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet: ? ????? ?????????? ???????; ?????, ????????? ??????. 8 Sheep and oxen, all of them, yea, and the beasts of the field; ? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????, ???????? ???????. 9 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea; whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. ? ?????? ??????????: ???-??????? ???????, ??????-???????. 10 O LORD, our Lord, how glorious is Thy name in all the earth! Psalm 8 :4-10. My apologies John, I cannot post without scripture. I am helplessly devoted to this addiction. However, I will try and keep this short, Bli Neder. :-D This is a cornerstone scripture. Now comes the paradigm shift. As humans we tend to project inwards rather than projecting outwards. When we do this, even for the noblest of reasons, we are still tainted with ego. I , for one am guilty of this. My shoes are always ...... from stepping in it. When we say that we endure hardships in order to be refined and become better persons for it, whilst it does contain an element of truth in it, it is still bordering on the self. How do I feel, what did I get out of it,will I be saved, etc. When we endure for the sake of self, we have missed the plot. When we endure for the sake of others, then bull's eye. Creation was based on one element alone. HASHEM PROJECTED OUT FROM EIN SOF AND GAVE FORM TO HIS INDIVISIBILTY THROUGH MULTIPLICITY AND THEN TO BRING THAT MULTIPLICITY INTO UNITY THROUGH MAN - ADAM, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. That was the purpose of creation albeit in a very abstract explanation. This reflected on man being dependent on HaShem as the source of Ein Sof. This is reflected in the quoted Psalm above. There is a rabbinic dictum that a man must first engage in a profession, then build a house and then find a wife, similarly HaShem engaged in the profession of Creator, built the Earth to sustain mankind and then created them. Just think how we in the modern world have everything in the wrong order. Man had other ideas of creating his own reality based on independence and ego. Hence the fall and the need for redemption. So redemption is not from Egypt, Babylon, the nations. These serve as prototypes. The true redemption is from SELF. So, you may call it ego, yetzer hara, the satan, or whatever you may like. The antidote? Project yourself out..... away from self. Suffering comes to our aid as it teaches us empathy as a matter of due diligence and correction if need be. Some may view it purely as correction, but I prefer to see and understand the ramifications of empathy. This teaches me to be long suffering for the sake of others, to reach out beyond myself. HaShem is long suffering . Just imagine how He sees the world at this very moment and yet he projects out. This is the law of giving rather than taking. He sustains regardless. Now, back to suffering. Why ? What I can say is that the ultimate suffering is death. We aspired to independence in Gan Eden. At the moment of death we ultimately surrender our ego to HaShem and pronounce with our last breath our dependence on Him as sole sustainer of life. The purpose of life is to understand and experience this in the here and now. What better way to enact this than to give at the expense of self. This creates ECHAD or oneness. Those that are obedient will be worthy of redemption from death , both from a living death of walking in darkness and the sleeping death of eternity. His indivisibility must become our indivisibility. Why ? Because we were created in His image. Christianity is obsessed with personal redemption. Torah Judaism is dedicated to national redemption. As the rabbis teach : "the death of the righteous atones for the sins of the generation." The role of Mashiach is to be the catalst that unifies the Ein Sof of HaShem , through his rejection, suffering , death to self and resurrection to empathy. This is manifested not only in him but as the Yechida or the collective neshamot (souls) of his people Yisrael. As their representative all is bound in him. Please do not misconstrue this as Christian theology, because it is not, it is pure mystical Judaism. As the post is already way to long, if anyone is interested I will post them separately. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/69e01c9a/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Apr 2 10:43:23 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:43:23 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <040220090144.10071.49D418720006AF290000275722243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <49D24B7D.5060002@westnet.com.au><54361.19196.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <040220090144.10071.49D418720006AF290000275722243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the "Pig" is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don't hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/2e6ec054/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 2 11:39:10 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:39:10 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: References: <49D24B7D.5060002@westnet.com.au><54361.19196.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com><040220090144.10071.49D418720006AF290000275722243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <040220091639.21917.49D4EA2E0001BDD00000559D22230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> If that's the case then the Gentiles of Southern Louisiana are taking full advantage of that view! ;-{)} All I know is that after I quit eating it (along with shrimp and crawfish) I lost 50 pounds, my blood pressure returned to normal and so did my cholesterol. So I remain skeptical as to whether it should be considered food for anyone. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "mhyde" : -------------- In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don?t hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/8a8c7b67/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Apr 2 12:32:29 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:32:29 EDT Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Message-ID: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _mhyde7 at tds.net_ (mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don?t hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, ____________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/aa931010/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 12:56:35 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <175108.41247.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> There you are, I was wondering if the eagle sacred you away! Expand on your thought please. Susie --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:32 AM Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? #yiv1382107012 st1\:*{} In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig?? is off limits to those of Israel (Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles.?? Don?t hit me!?? Just sharing information! ? Peace Brother, ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] ? Hey Susie, ? I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right.? I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. ? Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"!? Why, because HaShem said so. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, ? Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? ? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia . If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE._______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/3f680bb0/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 12:57:46 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <175108.41247.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <549595.28799.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> scared not sacred. LOL --- On Thu, 4/2/09, susie getskow wrote: From: susie getskow Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:56 AM There you are, I was wondering if the eagle sacred you away! Expand on your thought please. Susie --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 10:32 AM Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on:? ? #yiv1223286576 #yiv1382107012 st1\:*{} In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig?? is off limits to those of Israel (Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles.?? Don?t hit me!?? Just sharing information! ? Peace Brother, ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] ? Hey Susie, ? I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right.? I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. ? Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"!? Why, because HaShem said so. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, ? Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? ? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia . If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE._______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/73b03845/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Apr 2 15:20:39 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:20:39 EDT Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Message-ID: In a message dated 4/2/2009 1:58:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gets52000 at yahoo.com writes: scared not sacred. LOL I guess it depends if you're a Philly fan or not. Go Eagles !! LOL Hez **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/c524ceac/attachment.html From webhulon at msn.com Thu Apr 2 18:10:03 2009 From: webhulon at msn.com (Ronnie Hulon) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:10:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom = Selflessness? In-Reply-To: <014401c9b396$ec36a400$c4a3ec00$@com> References: <49D2D224.401@westnet.com.au> <014401c9b396$ec36a400$c4a3ec00$@com> Message-ID: Shalom, I don't believe that selflessness is not taking care of yourself or loving yourself, rather it is, as the word implies, caring less about self in order to make more room for caring more about others. Like all things, this requires balance. Web From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:28:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom = Selflessness? Shalom Joe, Thank you, this is very interesting. I am not sure about the ?selflessness? thing, though. Yeshua said ?Love your neighbor AS yourself?. I have found that in my life, I couldn?t truly love another until I learned to love myself. I couldn?t truly forgive another until I could forgive myself. Years ago I was so entrenched in his total selflessness that I believed I wasn?t accepted by HaShem unless I was in some state of suffering/destitution. Just my thoughts and maybe I need to grow in this area. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] Shalom Hanoch and Melanie, both of you have put forward some very valid reasons and ??? "who knows" arguments. If I may I would like to put a different twist to the subject. One that has helped me no end. In Kabbala there is the concept of "Ein Sof" Ein Sof (or Ayn Sof) (Hebrew ??? ???), in the Kabbalah, is understood as Infinite Divinity. Ein Sof may be translated as "no end", "unending" or Infinite. Ein Sof is the Divine Origin of all created existence: this is in contrast to the Ein (or Ayn), which is infinite no-thingness [1]. According to Gershom Scholem, Ein Sof is the Emanator of the sefirot. Sefirot are energy emanations found on the Kabbalist Tree of Life. Ayn Sof, the Ancient of All Ancients emanates the sefirot into the cosmic womb of the Ein in a manner that results in the created universe. >From this we see that all emanates from HaShem. Nothing that we do or say can add one minuscule to the reality of HaShem. He was and is and will be.He is within and without Himself. And yet..... ? ????-??????? ????????, ???????? ??????????????-- ?????? ???????????, ?????? ????????????. 4 When I behold Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, {N} the moon and the stars, which Thou hast established; ? ???-??????? ????-?????????????; ?????-?????, ???? ????????????. 5 What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou thinkest of him? ? ??????????????? ??????, ??????????; ???????? ??????? ?????????????. 6 Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. ? ??????????????, ??????????? ???????; ????, ??????? ?????-????????. 7 Thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under his feet: ? ????? ?????????? ???????; ?????, ????????? ??????. 8 Sheep and oxen, all of them, yea, and the beasts of the field; ? ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????, ???????? ???????. 9 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea; whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. ? ?????? ??????????: ???-??????? ???????, ??????-???????. 10 O LORD, our Lord, how glorious is Thy name in all the earth! Psalm 8 :4-10. My apologies John, I cannot post without scripture. I am helplessly devoted to this addiction. However, I will try and keep this short, Bli Neder. :-D This is a cornerstone scripture. Now comes the paradigm shift. As humans we tend to project inwards rather than projecting outwards. When we do this, even for the noblest of reasons, we are still tainted with ego. I , for one am guilty of this. My shoes are always ...... from stepping in it. When we say that we endure hardships in order to be refined and become better persons for it, whilst it does contain an element of truth in it, it is still bordering on the self. How do I feel, what did I get out of it,will I be saved, etc. When we endure for the sake of self, we have missed the plot. When we endure for the sake of others, then bull's eye. Creation was based on one element alone. HASHEM PROJECTED OUT FROM EIN SOF AND GAVE FORM TO HIS INDIVISIBILTY THROUGH MULTIPLICITY AND THEN TO BRING THAT MULTIPLICITY INTO UNITY THROUGH MAN - ADAM, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. That was the purpose of creation albeit in a very abstract explanation. This reflected on man being dependent on HaShem as the source of Ein Sof. This is reflected in the quoted Psalm above. There is a rabbinic dictum that a man must first engage in a profession, then build a house and then find a wife, similarly HaShem engaged in the profession of Creator, built the Earth to sustain mankind and then created them. Just think how we in the modern world have everything in the wrong order. Man had other ideas of creating his own reality based on independence and ego. Hence the fall and the need for redemption. So redemption is not from Egypt, Babylon, the nations. These serve as prototypes. The true redemption is from SELF. So, you may call it ego, yetzer hara, the satan, or whatever you may like. The antidote? Project yourself out..... away from self. Suffering comes to our aid as it teaches us empathy as a matter of due diligence and correction if need be. Some may view it purely as correction, but I prefer to see and understand the ramifications of empathy. This teaches me to be long suffering for the sake of others, to reach out beyond myself. HaShem is long suffering . Just imagine how He sees the world at this very moment and yet he projects out. This is the law of giving rather than taking. He sustains regardless. Now, back to suffering. Why ? What I can say is that the ultimate suffering is death. We aspired to independence in Gan Eden. At the moment of death we ultimately surrender our ego to HaShem and pronounce with our last breath our dependence on Him as sole sustainer of life. The purpose of life is to understand and experience this in the here and now. What better way to enact this than to give at the expense of self. This creates ECHAD or oneness. Those that are obedient will be worthy of redemption from death , both from a living death of walking in darkness and the sleeping death of eternity. His indivisibility must become our indivisibility. Why ? Because we were created in His image. Christianity is obsessed with personal redemption. Torah Judaism is dedicated to national redemption. As the rabbis teach : "the death of the righteous atones for the sins of the generation." The role of Mashiach is to be the catalst that unifies the Ein Sof of HaShem , through his rejection, suffering , death to self and resurrection to empathy. This is manifested not only in him but as the Yechida or the collective neshamot (souls) of his people Yisrael. As their representative all is bound in him. Please do not misconstrue this as Christian theology, because it is not, it is pure mystical Judaism. As the post is already way to long, if anyone is interested I will post them separately. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage1_042009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/e41994bd/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 18:42:05 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: > Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a > problem. > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: *RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]* Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern > Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: > > > In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in > Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) > and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don?t hit me! Just > sharing information! > > > > Peace Brother, > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > > Hey Susie, > > > > I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't > think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that > we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has > given us that brings evil into the world. > > > > Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, > because HaShem said so. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > > -------------- Original message from susie getskow : > -------------- > > Hey Joe, > > > > Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who > understand Hebrew. > > The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't > necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word > Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not > set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as > its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? > > > > Susie > > --- On *Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO * wrote: > > From: JOE INDOMENICO > Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM > > *Shalom Melanie, > > I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. > > A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old > Dart." > No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though > we have the cricket ashes. ;-) > I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. > > If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will > understand the ways of HaShem. > Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. > So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. > We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. > > It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and > frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to > thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. > > What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest > for this emet. > In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the > first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the > rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is > and will always be. > Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is > Truth. > > So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying > opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the > occasional speed bumps. > > Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. > Dialogue is the main ingredient. > > I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit > your page to get to know you. > > Tally Ho, ol'chap. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE.* > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/34b1779b/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 18:48:34 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:48:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Twilight Hours" In-Reply-To: <033120090236.29753.49D181950002B8B90000743922230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <855590370903301654x6029c660lf76a276fa00e9833@mail.gmail.com> <033120090236.29753.49D181950002B8B90000743922230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <855590370904021648j35f5a0eaxa9781d13a8816c3b@mail.gmail.com> Hey John - I agree! Their shop, "Shorashim" in the Jewish Quarter, is a 'MUST SEE' for anyone who goes to Jerusalem. And things are definitely going to get even more "interesting," no doubt about it... *Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 7:36 PM, wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > Moshe and Dov are two of the most wonderful people I have ever met. > > This speaks from Moshe's heart and I know it is genuine. > > We are all in for some interesting times. > > Praise HaShem! > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : > -------------- > > The Twilight Hours Nisan 4, 5769, 29 March 09 12:22 > by by Moshe Kempinski > > (IsraelNN.com) We are in the midst of the time of "not knowing", the eerie > period between darkness and light. The world is awash with a pale and grey > pall of uncertainty; and a sense of foreboding and concern seems to weigh > heavily over every nation and over every people. This is a very dangerous > time for the world. It is a dangerous time because in the twilight hours, > uncertainty leads to indecision and creates stagnation. This could be fine > if time was not moving forward. It would be acceptable if there were not > forces in the world that pounce on these twilight times in order to push > forward their self-serving agenda with great ruthlessness. > > This is not new to the Jewish people: "Remember what Amalek did to you on > the way as you came out of Egypt, how he attacked you on the way when you > were faint and weary, and cut off your stragglers, those who were lagging > behind you, and did not fear G-d." (Deuteronomy 25:17) > > As I drive to work every day, I come up Ramban Street, past the Prime > Minister's residence and then move on to the Old City of Jerusalem. Every > day I pass a little plaque on a small wall in memory of the terrorist > destruction of a bus that killed many, including my friend Chezi Goldberg ( > *H.y.d.*). I then drive past the Moment cafe, another scene of carnage and > terrorism. > > In recent weeks, my trip also involved passing two demonstrations opposite > each other, adjacent to the Prime Minister's home. One is the protest tent > of the Shalit family, demanding that the Israeli government do everything > possible, including the mass release of jailed terrorists, in order to bring > kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit back home. Gilad has been held in difficult > conditions by the Hamas terrorists for over 1,000 days; and all efforts have > not succeeded in even ascertaining if he is alive or dead and what his state > of health is. On the other side of the street was a protest tent manned by > the families of terror victims. They were crying out that Gilad should be > brought home, but not at the expense of releasing murders back into the > highways and cities of Israel. > > As I drove past these two "opposing camps" my heart was wrenched to both > sides of the street. The twilight zone of not knowing what should be done. > > My wife and I escaped for a pre-Shabbat afternoon stroll along the beaches > of Tel Aviv. We parked under the Savoy Hotel, site of one of the early > terrorist attacks in Israel's history, and then walked past Mike's Place, > site of another murderous attack. We ended our "stroll" at the Dolphinarium, > where so many other young people lost their lives to terrorism. > > It was only the bright healing sun and the never-ending tug of the waves > that gave us back the strength to replenish our souls in preparation for > Shabbat. Everywhere one walks in Israel, one stands on the edge of the night > of tragedy and evil, and attempts to reach towards the daybreak of hope and > destiny. > > We are in the midst of a time wherein we elected a Prime Minister who > cannot muster the courage to lead the nation with vision. He would prefer a > fractured and weak Labor party at his side rather than a clear voiced and > committed National Union party. We are at a time when the army relaxes its > "security hold" around the city of Shechem (Nablus) because of the reduction > of terror emanating from that city. This is being done without taking into > account that the reduction only came about because of that increased > "security hold". > > We are living in a world that has watched all the secure fortress walls > that protected it begin to crumble and fall. Heavily fortified steel and > concrete proved useless on 9/11. Brilliant financial planning and insight > proved to be as solid as wisps of smoke. Political leadership around the > world has become ratings-directed and popularity-seeking at the best, and > has lost the understanding of true leadership. > > This is a time of danger, when impassioned and fiercely zealous forces will > pounce on a shaken world. We see that happening in a secular, confused > Europe, falling deeper and deeper under the influence of radical Islam. We > see it in an America that is clinging to wonderful concepts of dialogue and > discourse even with evil, without understanding that evil sees those things > as weakness and failure. > > In times of darkness even a little light would be revelatory. In times of > hushed, confused silence even a still small voice would be inspirational. In > times of twilight even a softly spoken word of faith would be redemptive. We > each have the ability to find the little candle, hear the still small voice, > and speak a soft word of encouragement, of faith, to those around us. These > are the tools critical to gathering the strength to then boldly and directly > confront evil. > > "Therefore, when *HaShem* your G-d has given you rest from all your > enemies around you, in the land that *HaShem* your G-d is giving you for > an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from > under heaven; you shall not forget (*lo tishkach*)." (Deuteronomy 25:19) > > Our sages ask: If we are told to blot out the memory, then why are we told > "not to forget"? The answers are varied and abound in wisdom. The Oztrovcer > Rebbe suggested the following. > > The words "you shall not forget" are *lo tishkach*. *Tishkach* is made up > of two words: *tash* ("give up") and *koach* ("strength"). The meaning is > better understood, he suggested, as an instruction not to lose strength in > the battle with the doubt sewn by the spirit of Amalek. This is especially > necessary because the battle with that doubt and twilight fear is to be a > long and arduous battle. > > "And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, *HaShem* is My > Banner; Saying, "A hand upon the throne of *HaShem*! *HaShem* will have > war with Amalek from generation to generation." (Exodus 17:15) > > Ten days ago, I walked out of synagogue and a heavy scent surrounded the > neighborhood. It was not yet the scent of spring time and yet it was. My > neighborhood is in the area of the Yehuda Matzah factory. The smell of > freshly baked Pesach matzah filled the air. > > That too is the smell of springtime. > > That too is the smell of redemption. > www.IsraelNationalNews.com > ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com > Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/de4dc412/attachment.html From ram1500_man at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 18:49:52 2009 From: ram1500_man at yahoo.com (ram1500_man at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 23:49:52 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <264518612-1238716182-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-935498339-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 18:50:30 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:50:30 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Twilight Hours" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370904021650h27ff5ddei139ed52dcfca6d00@mail.gmail.com> Hey Melanie - Your note so eloquently reflects daily life in Israel today. From the heights of joy to the deepest sadness.... * Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:09 PM, wrote: > Thanks Hanoch for posting this. > > Now that is an absolutely stunning piece of writing! > It reeks of hope and despair and leaves a tangible pull of sorrow and > regret in it's wake, twilight indeed. > but after night comes day, and in the shadows small things still grow and > crawl, and in twilight times, dusk and dawn, bird song quietly starts to > fills the air - hope and remembrance. > Absolutely wonderful and utterly wrenching that that is how it is in Israel > today. > > Best > > melanie > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/51301ab8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 18:53:43 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 16:53:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> Hey John - Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! Looking forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to see you in Israel.... :-) *Hanoch * On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: > Wow Hanoch! > > I think this is the heart of the matter. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : > -------------- > > [image: The Careful Student] > By: Alice Jonsson > [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] > > This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning > program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish history, > Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program designed for Jewish > adults that hopefully accomplishes many things like getting not so observant > to become more so, to teach the already observant about why they are doing > what they are doing, to re-teach some material with which people are already > familiar but from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach > I really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the > classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is perhaps the > kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be participating in. > Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on the > internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis who runs the > kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to take the classes. I was > giddy when he agreed. In the small city where we lived before learning > opportunities like this did not exist. It took awhile for me to get over my > insecurity about being the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but > the learning was worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite > and also to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo > missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured out that I > was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to think I, enemy to > missionaries, could actually be one felt like a painful and cruel > joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem needs for me to be humble > and to remember that I was there to learn about Him, not for my ego. > > > I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox communities > and that we need to learn appropriate material for both groups together at > least some of the time. Issues about how together or how separate we should > all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus out, in my opinion. Some advocate > intense levels of separateness, others much less. Clearly these rabbis know > infinitely more about the whys than I, and I am not trying to pretend > otherwise. I do humbly share my opinion that togetherness in Torah learning > has been a positive in my experience. > > I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I handled > it. I offer this only as my opinion. > > *1.* Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you show > up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the entire class > because I thought that would be very weird and unnatural. I am not sure it > is anyone?s business who does not know me anyway. As I got to know people, I > explained what I believe in a comfortable and natural way. But I do not > stick my hand out to my classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That > feels nutty. > > *2.* It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules laid > out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei Noach. Some of > the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need your own rabbi to help > you understand, in his opinion, which apply to you and which do not. The > person teaching a course you take may not know. Most rabbis do not spend a > great deal of time on the subject. Hopefully that will change as more > non-Jews become interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in > a class designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the > teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what does not in > the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply ask your own rabbi > later. I often saw the learning as general Torah learning which mostly > applies to Jews. What I do is something my rabbi determines. > > *3.* Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I tried > to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in general, especially > because I might be the first Bat Noach these people meet. It is human nature > to generalize ? we all do it. Therefore it perhaps behooves us all to > represent a little, to think about the impressions we make on others. I am > not trying to suggest we behave like hyper-correct robots or lose our > individuality, God forbid. But it is something to think about as we build > bridges with anyone, Jew or not. > > *4.* You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I > shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have friends > from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, especially > within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I grew up with tons of > Jewish people so that was hard for me to get used to. Now I really do not > care. I am nice, but some people will take it and some will leave it. Some > people will take you, some will leave you, just like in any other setting if > you think about it. And you and I will take some people and leave others; it > is human nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community > building still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem > and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. > > *5.* I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk of > life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was surprised to see > just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really got to learn about the > people sitting next to me. Some were not even sure what they believed in > religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. Some were Reform. Some people who in > the process of converting. Some were Gentiles who had been raised thinking > they were Jewish. Some were people who found out they were Jewish later in > life. This made me feel less self-conscious. > > There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together and > learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect spiritual > nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and chasing toddlers and > paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat to sit with such wonderfully > educated rabbis and such a delightful and diverse group of people, all of us > refocusing our attention on things that are truly important in life ? > Hashem, Torah, and working together to fix this world. > > Read more about Noahide World > > See More Articles By Alice Jonsson > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/b9711d98/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Apr 2 19:05:31 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:05:31 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW Message-ID: O my G-d, G-d of my ancestors, on this Shabbat I ask You to bless my friends, relatives and email buddies reading this right now. Where there is pain, give them peace and mercy. Where there is self-doubt, release a renewed confidence through Your grace. Bless their homes, families, finances, their goings and their comings. Amen. Regards all, Hez **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f24e1e33/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f24e1e33/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 5413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f24e1e33/attachment-0001.jpe From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 2 19:15:24 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 00:15:24 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <767764922-1238717771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1915008533-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thank you Hez! As for me and mine, your prayer is very much needed and appreciated. May HaShem bless you and your household as well and may your Shabbat be filled with peace fellowship with He who made us all. Shalom my friend. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:05:31 To: Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW _______________________________________________ From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:19:44 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:19:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> Hanoch, Have you personally talked to anyone involved in B'Nai Noach? Might be an answer (just one of them) to what can I do for the Ephramites. B'Nai Noach seems to be a first step that could led to more...especially since the movement is already recognized by the Sanhedrin. Kim On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey John - > > Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! Looking > forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to see you in > Israel.... :-) > *Hanoch > * > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: > >> Wow Hanoch! >> >> I think this is the heart of the matter. >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> >> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : >> -------------- >> >> [image: The Careful Student] >> By: Alice Jonsson >> [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] >> >> This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning >> program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish history, >> Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program designed for Jewish >> adults that hopefully accomplishes many things like getting not so observant >> to become more so, to teach the already observant about why they are doing >> what they are doing, to re-teach some material with which people are already >> familiar but from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach >> I really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the >> classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is perhaps the >> kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be participating in. >> Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on the >> internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis who runs the >> kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to take the classes. I was >> giddy when he agreed. In the small city where we lived before learning >> opportunities like this did not exist. It took awhile for me to get over my >> insecurity about being the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but >> the learning was worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite >> and also to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo >> missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured out that I >> was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to think I, enemy to >> missionaries, could actually be one felt like a painful and cruel >> joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem needs for me to be humble >> and to remember that I was there to learn about Him, not for my ego. >> >> >> I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox >> communities and that we need to learn appropriate material for both groups >> together at least some of the time. Issues about how together or how >> separate we should all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus out, in my >> opinion. Some advocate intense levels of separateness, others much >> less. Clearly these rabbis know infinitely more about the whys than I, and I >> am not trying to pretend otherwise. I do humbly share my opinion that >> togetherness in Torah learning has been a positive in my experience. >> >> I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I handled >> it. I offer this only as my opinion. >> >> *1.* Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you show >> up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the entire class >> because I thought that would be very weird and unnatural. I am not sure it >> is anyone?s business who does not know me anyway. As I got to know people, I >> explained what I believe in a comfortable and natural way. But I do not >> stick my hand out to my classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That >> feels nutty. >> >> *2.* It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules laid >> out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei Noach. Some of >> the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need your own rabbi to help >> you understand, in his opinion, which apply to you and which do not. The >> person teaching a course you take may not know. Most rabbis do not spend a >> great deal of time on the subject. Hopefully that will change as more >> non-Jews become interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in >> a class designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the >> teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what does not in >> the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply ask your own rabbi >> later. I often saw the learning as general Torah learning which mostly >> applies to Jews. What I do is something my rabbi determines. >> >> *3.* Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I tried >> to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in general, especially >> because I might be the first Bat Noach these people meet. It is human nature >> to generalize ? we all do it. Therefore it perhaps behooves us all to >> represent a little, to think about the impressions we make on others. I am >> not trying to suggest we behave like hyper-correct robots or lose our >> individuality, God forbid. But it is something to think about as we build >> bridges with anyone, Jew or not. >> >> *4.* You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I >> shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have friends >> from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, especially >> within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I grew up with tons of >> Jewish people so that was hard for me to get used to. Now I really do not >> care. I am nice, but some people will take it and some will leave it. Some >> people will take you, some will leave you, just like in any other setting if >> you think about it. And you and I will take some people and leave others; it >> is human nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community >> building still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem >> and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. >> >> *5.* I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk of >> life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was surprised to see >> just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really got to learn about the >> people sitting next to me. Some were not even sure what they believed in >> religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. Some were Reform. Some people who in >> the process of converting. Some were Gentiles who had been raised thinking >> they were Jewish. Some were people who found out they were Jewish later in >> life. This made me feel less self-conscious. >> >> There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together and >> learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect spiritual >> nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and chasing toddlers and >> paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat to sit with such wonderfully >> educated rabbis and such a delightful and diverse group of people, all of us >> refocusing our attention on things that are truly important in life ? >> Hashem, Torah, and working together to fix this world. >> >> Read more about Noahide World >> >> See More Articles By Alice Jonsson >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/a26b3818/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 2 19:21:19 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] In-Reply-To: <49D3FB12.8060903@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <954857.4271.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Joe, ? Thank you for all your insights. I would like to hear your thoughts , and anyone else please chime in, of how Enoch fits into this.( the concept of here and now and not elevation) If we would accept the Targum Yonasan paraphrase of Gen. 5:24. It states, "And Enoch served in truth before G-d, and behold, he was not with the sojourners of earth, for he was withdrawn and he ascended to heaven by the word of G-d." I have heard teachings that Enoch reached the 50th level therefore ceased to exist in this realm. ? Susie --- On Wed, 4/1/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:38 PM Shalom Susie, you brought up some very interesting issues. I will try and address each one. 1) The object is to be in the world but not of the world. Unfortunately this statement has much Christian encrustation and overlay placed upon it. Before going any further I would suggest you read one of my previous postings by Rabbi Natan Weisz entitled " How to look for holiness." Christianity has this uncanny tendency to lift man up to HaShem. There is this obsession with the afterlife or Heaven. This obsession was inherited from the Greeks. On the other hand Torah Judaism is about bringing HaShem and His Kingdom down to man and to make it a reality in the here and the now. Heaven on Earth. The Olam Haba or the world to come will come but as a continuation of this life. So our task is to bring the holy into every facet of our lives, from spiritual service to our family life, to our work , to our friendships and to our leisure time. Every aspect of our lives must be redeemed including time. ? 2) Torah observance( not Torah belief) was given to set us apart from the world but it was never really about us even though it is the tool( for lack of a better word) that can lift ourselves above this world in everyday existance. The ultimate is to filll the vessel(body) with the light of Torah for the world to see and know the Holiness of Hashem. The Torah was given to Israel and was rejected by the world. You cannot fill the vessel with light if the vessel is shattered. The Jewish concept of "tikkun" or repair is what this is all about. There must be a rectification and repair before any light can shine. Torah is the method of tikkun. The Torah was never meant to lift anybody let alone Israel above the worldly every day existence. It was meant to be mingled with the world in order to repair and heal the world. Rev 22 : 1-5 Israel as the receivers of this revelation of Torah are the light bringers of Torah to the nations. In Torah there is no separation of religion and state. Israel's diaspora into the world, whilst being part of their repair brought Torah to the nations. So therefore what was seen as negative actually turns out to be positive. They never deviated from their mission.Baruch HaShem. If you could share your insights of how Yeshua did not fit into the Zohar concepts I would like to hear them because I cannot see how he didn't.( Not Christian theology). If you look for Yeshua in Zohar, you will not find him. The key is to find Zohar in Yeshua and all the other tzadikkim of their generations. This is again a throwback from Christianity that tried to fit and squeeze and bulldoze J-E-S-U-S into every possible scripture known to man from the Tanach. The key again is to find the Tanach in Yeshua. These are just my thoughts and not necessarily the final say on the matter. I posted a three part series last year on "the Suffering of Mashiach"on the dialogue list. I do not know if you were a member then. If not, I would be more than happy to repost them again. They are very interesting and a real eye opener. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/7bc2f556/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 19:22:11 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:22:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: <767764922-1238717771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1915008533-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <767764922-1238717771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1915008533-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904021722t2d42b04kd760ebcf285eb9a6@mail.gmail.com> This prayer is also very timely for me...much appreciation. Baruch Hashem! for this wonderful group of people and the opportunity to learn and share with eachother. Shabbat Shalom to you and yours. Kim On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:15 PM, wrote: > Thank you Hez! > > As for me and mine, your prayer is very much needed and appreciated. > > May HaShem bless you and your household as well and may your Shabbat be > filled with peace fellowship with He who made us all. > > Shalom my friend. > > John C. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com > > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:05:31 > To: > Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/ee585524/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Thu Apr 2 19:30:50 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 00:30:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021722t2d42b04kd760ebcf285eb9a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <767764922-1238717771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1915008533-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1c8dbb6e0904021722t2d42b04kd760ebcf285eb9a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1462378654-1238718515-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-462725465-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> You guys are confusing me with the EARLY shabbat shaloms! ;) thanks for the good wishes but I had to check my calendar. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:22:11 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Apr 2 19:33:24 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:33:24 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You go girl!!! No pigs in my house, at least not for the past 20 years, as you well know.not even before I converted! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:42 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the "Pig" is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don't hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession . _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/49707983/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Apr 2 19:40:25 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:40:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kim, Quite a few on this list, and in our wider associations, have had pretty extensive experience with what the Rabbis call "B'nai Noach," and the movement in general. This would include John and Dana Hill who even have a BN Web site, Brian and Beth Jones who have had lots of dealings with Rabbi Richman, Ray and Terry Selg, and many others. Several of us were part of the original BN founding movement that met in Ft Worth in 1990--including your mother and me! I have published quite a few articles on BN, including two in the Jewish Press and one in Moment magazine. I am part of the Yahoo BN group and anyone can join. I have also gone to meetings over the years. Just a start but I am glad you have touched on this, as there is plenty out there. My own sense is that those of us who are oriented to God, Torah, and Israel, who are not Jewish, are indeed best labeled as "B'nai Noach," so long as we do not worship a man as God, but the Rabbis have even differed in their views on that, insofar as some have understood the Christian view of the Trinity as false but not idolatrous. I am fine with the label. It is not my label for myself, but we can't ignore history and Judah's own development and from a Jewish point of view such non-Jews are BN. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 8:19 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Hanoch, > > Have you personally talked to anyone involved in B'Nai Noach? Might > be an answer (just one of them) to what can I do for the > Ephramites. B'Nai Noach seems to be a first step that could led to > more...especially since the movement is already recognized by the > Sanhedrin. > > Kim > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Hanoch Young > wrote: > Hey John - > > Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! > Looking forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to > see you in Israel.... :-) > Hanoch > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: > Wow Hanoch! > > I think this is the heart of the matter. > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young >: -------------- > > > By: Alice Jonsson > > > This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning > program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish > history, Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program > designed for Jewish adults that hopefully accomplishes many things > like getting not so observant to become more so, to teach the > already observant about why they are doing what they are doing, to > re-teach some material with which people are already familiar but > from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach I > really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the > classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is > perhaps the kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be > participating in. > > Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on > the internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis > who runs the kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to > take the classes. I was giddy when he agreed. In the small city > where we lived before learning opportunities like this did not > exist. It took awhile for me to get over my insecurity about being > the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but the learning was > worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite and also > to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo > missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured > out that I was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to > think I, enemy to missionaries, could actually be one felt like a > painful and cruel joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem > needs for me to be humble and to remember that I was there to learn > about Him, not for my ego. > > > > I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox > communities and that we need to learn appropriate material for both > groups together at least some of the time. Issues about how together > or how separate we should all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus > out, in my opinion. Some advocate intense levels of separateness, > others much less. Clearly these rabbis know infinitely more about > the whys than I, and I am not trying to pretend otherwise. I do > humbly share my opinion that togetherness in Torah learning has been > a positive in my experience. > > I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I > handled it. I offer this only as my opinion. > > 1. Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you > show up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the > entire class because I thought that would be very weird and > unnatural. I am not sure it is anyone?s business who does not know > me anyway. As I got to know people, I explained what I believe in a > comfortable and natural way. But I do not stick my hand out to my > classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That feels nutty. > > 2. It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules > laid out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei > Noach. Some of the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need > your own rabbi to help you understand, in his opinion, which apply > to you and which do not. The person teaching a course you take may > not know. Most rabbis do not spend a great deal of time on the > subject. Hopefully that will change as more non-Jews become > interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in a class > designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the > teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what > does not in the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply > ask your own rabbi later. I often saw the learning as general Torah > learning which mostly applies to Jews. What I do is something my > rabbi determines. > > 3. Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I > tried to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in > general, especially because I might be the first Bat Noach these > people meet. It is human nature to generalize ? we all do it. > Therefore it perhaps behooves us all to represent a little, to think > about the impressions we make on others. I am not trying to suggest > we behave like hyper-correct robots or lose our individuality, God > forbid. But it is something to think about as we build bridges with > anyone, Jew or not. > > 4. You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I > shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have > friends from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, > especially within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I > grew up with tons of Jewish people so that was hard for me to get > used to. Now I really do not care. I am nice, but some people will > take it and some will leave it. Some people will take you, some will > leave you, just like in any other setting if you think about it. And > you and I will take some people and leave others; it is human > nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community building > still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem > and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. > > 5. I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk > of life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was > surprised to see just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really > got to learn about the people sitting next to me. Some were not even > sure what they believed in religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. > Some were Reform. Some people who in the process of converting. Some > were Gentiles who had been raised thinking they were Jewish. Some > were people who found out they were Jewish later in life. This made > me feel less self-conscious. > > There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together > and learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect > spiritual nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and > chasing toddlers and paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat > to sit with such wonderfully educated rabbis and such a delightful > and diverse group of people, all of us refocusing our attention on > things that are truly important in life ? Hashem, Torah, and working > together to fix this world. > > Read more about Noahide World > > See More Articles By Alice Jonsson > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/1badc7de/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Apr 2 19:43:18 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:43:18 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021722t2d42b04kd760ebcf285eb9a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <767764922-1238717771-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1915008533-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1c8dbb6e0904021722t2d42b04kd760ebcf285eb9a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8118ECED30DC48658E986B3908487909@bettylaptop> And also very timely for me as well, Kim, my daughter! Thank you, Hez, for thinking of us and for that lovely Shabbat prayer .we are all indeed blessed to have one another. I am not sure how I managed to live before Shabbat, and all of you are just icing on the cake! May HaShem bless each and every one of your households with His Presence! With love and Shabbat Shalom wishes to you all, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 7:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW This prayer is also very timely for me...much appreciation. Baruch Hashem! for this wonderful group of people and the opportunity to learn and share with eachother. Shabbat Shalom to you and yours. Kim On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:15 PM, wrote: Thank you Hez! As for me and mine, your prayer is very much needed and appreciated. May HaShem bless you and your household as well and may your Shabbat be filled with peace fellowship with He who made us all. Shalom my friend. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:05:31 To: Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/e04650d9/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Apr 2 19:49:45 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:49:45 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't > separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood > as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone > either...disease is carried in the blood. > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: > Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a > problem. > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: mhyde7 at tds.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent on: > > In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in > Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig? is off limits to those of > Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. > Don?t hit me! Just sharing information! > > > Peace Brother, > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > Hey Susie, > > > I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I > don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the > choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of > the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. > > > Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not > food"! Why, because HaShem said so. > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from susie getskow >: -------------- > > Hey Joe, > > > Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you > who understand Hebrew. > > The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't > necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. > The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or > functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but > wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. > Does this make sense to anyone? > > > Susie > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > From: JOE INDOMENICO > Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM > > Shalom Melanie, > > I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. > > A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the > Old Dart." > No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even > though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) > I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. > > If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will > understand the ways of HaShem. > Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. > So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing > Him. > We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. > > It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that > hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is > always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or > truth of Torah. > > What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and > unfathomable quest for this emet. > In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are > the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. > From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last > and that He was and is and will always be. > Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word > is Truth. > > So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have > varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to > get over the occasional speed bumps. > > Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. > Dialogue is the main ingredient. > > I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I > will visit your page to get to know you. > > Tally Ho, ol'chap. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/cfa36eb9/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Apr 2 19:55:06 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:55:06 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW Message-ID: The sun is down so it's Friday already; can't much closer to shabbos than friday,bro LOL Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW Date: 4/2/2009 8:50:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _rndavar at aol.com_ (mailto:rndavar at aol.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: You guys are confusing me with the EARLY shabbat shaloms! ;) thanks for the good wishes but I had to check my calendar. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 19:22:11 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/1c564ff1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:01:50 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:01:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904021801v1845bae7gdecf7daf18004344@mail.gmail.com> Hey Kim, I actually have a number of thoughts about this, but it's unlikely that I'll have very much time to write about it for a while. It's far more likely that we'll get a chance to discuss it in Charlotte. But yes, I have been thinking along those lines for a while now... Best regards, * Hanoch * On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 5:19 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > Hanoch, > Have you personally talked to anyone involved in B'Nai Noach? Might be an > answer (just one of them) to what can I do for the Ephramites. B'Nai Noach > seems to be a first step that could led to more...especially since the > movement is already recognized by the Sanhedrin. > > Kim > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > >> Hey John - >> >> Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! Looking >> forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to see you in >> Israel.... :-) >> *Hanoch >> * >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: >> >>> Wow Hanoch! >>> >>> I think this is the heart of the matter. >>> >>> -- >>> John C. >>> >>> "Be excellent to each other!" >>> Bill and Ted >>> >>> >>> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : >>> -------------- >>> >>> [image: The Careful Student] >>> By: Alice Jonsson >>> [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] >>> >>> This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning >>> program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish history, >>> Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program designed for Jewish >>> adults that hopefully accomplishes many things like getting not so observant >>> to become more so, to teach the already observant about why they are doing >>> what they are doing, to re-teach some material with which people are already >>> familiar but from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach >>> I really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the >>> classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is perhaps the >>> kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be participating in. >>> Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on the >>> internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis who runs the >>> kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to take the classes. I was >>> giddy when he agreed. In the small city where we lived before learning >>> opportunities like this did not exist. It took awhile for me to get over my >>> insecurity about being the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but >>> the learning was worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite >>> and also to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo >>> missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured out that I >>> was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to think I, enemy to >>> missionaries, could actually be one felt like a painful and cruel >>> joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem needs for me to be humble >>> and to remember that I was there to learn about Him, not for my ego. >>> >>> >>> I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox >>> communities and that we need to learn appropriate material for both groups >>> together at least some of the time. Issues about how together or how >>> separate we should all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus out, in my >>> opinion. Some advocate intense levels of separateness, others much >>> less. Clearly these rabbis know infinitely more about the whys than I, and I >>> am not trying to pretend otherwise. I do humbly share my opinion that >>> togetherness in Torah learning has been a positive in my experience. >>> >>> I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I handled >>> it. I offer this only as my opinion. >>> >>> *1.* Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you show >>> up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the entire class >>> because I thought that would be very weird and unnatural. I am not sure it >>> is anyone?s business who does not know me anyway. As I got to know people, I >>> explained what I believe in a comfortable and natural way. But I do not >>> stick my hand out to my classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That >>> feels nutty. >>> >>> *2.* It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules laid >>> out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei Noach. Some of >>> the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need your own rabbi to help >>> you understand, in his opinion, which apply to you and which do not. The >>> person teaching a course you take may not know. Most rabbis do not spend a >>> great deal of time on the subject. Hopefully that will change as more >>> non-Jews become interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in >>> a class designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the >>> teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what does not in >>> the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply ask your own rabbi >>> later. I often saw the learning as general Torah learning which mostly >>> applies to Jews. What I do is something my rabbi determines. >>> >>> *3.* Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I tried >>> to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in general, especially >>> because I might be the first Bat Noach these people meet. It is human nature >>> to generalize ? we all do it. Therefore it perhaps behooves us all to >>> represent a little, to think about the impressions we make on others. I am >>> not trying to suggest we behave like hyper-correct robots or lose our >>> individuality, God forbid. But it is something to think about as we build >>> bridges with anyone, Jew or not. >>> >>> *4.* You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I >>> shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have friends >>> from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, especially >>> within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I grew up with tons of >>> Jewish people so that was hard for me to get used to. Now I really do not >>> care. I am nice, but some people will take it and some will leave it. Some >>> people will take you, some will leave you, just like in any other setting if >>> you think about it. And you and I will take some people and leave others; it >>> is human nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community >>> building still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem >>> and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. >>> >>> *5.* I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk of >>> life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was surprised to see >>> just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really got to learn about the >>> people sitting next to me. Some were not even sure what they believed in >>> religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. Some were Reform. Some people who in >>> the process of converting. Some were Gentiles who had been raised thinking >>> they were Jewish. Some were people who found out they were Jewish later in >>> life. This made me feel less self-conscious. >>> >>> There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together and >>> learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect spiritual >>> nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and chasing toddlers and >>> paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat to sit with such wonderfully >>> educated rabbis and such a delightful and diverse group of people, all of us >>> refocusing our attention on things that are truly important in life ? >>> Hashem, Torah, and working together to fix this world. >>> >>> Read more about Noahide World >>> >>> See More Articles By Alice Jonsson >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/5e4bdc99/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Thu Apr 2 20:06:16 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:06:16 EDT Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Message-ID: Hi James, Not a problem,chaver, disagreeing with me that is . The choice to not eat it is just one more thing that continues to add to my amazement of all the folks on here.My biggest regret is Miri and I can't get away to hook up with everyone at the function.If I could,I would, just to meet such incredible people of faith. Regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 8:53:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _jamesdtabor at earthlink.net_ (mailto:jamesdtabor at earthlink.net) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/e2001055/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:10:51 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:10:51 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com> James, Yes, I remember your picture with J. David and Vendyl Jones. I just didn't know if Hanoch had been involved with the movement. While I desire more for myself, I do see it as a door that is already open as far as Judah is concerned. Has there been any talk of B'Nai obtaining citizenship? Probably just wishful thinking... Can't wait to see you in Charlotte! Kim On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:40 PM, James Tabor wrote: > Kim, > Quite a few on this list, and in our wider associations, have had pretty > extensive experience with what the Rabbis call "B'nai Noach," and the > movement in general. This would include John and Dana Hill who even have a > BN Web site, Brian and Beth Jones who have had lots of dealings with Rabbi > Richman, Ray and Terry Selg, and many others. Several of us were part of the > original BN founding movement that met in Ft Worth in 1990--including your > mother and me! I have published quite a few articles on BN, including two in > the Jewish Press and one in Moment magazine. I am part of the Yahoo BN group > and anyone can join. I have also gone to meetings over the years. Just a > start but I am glad you have touched on this, as there is plenty out there. > > My own sense is that those of us who are oriented to God, Torah, and > Israel, who are not Jewish, are indeed best labeled as "B'nai Noach," so > long as we do not worship a man as God, but the Rabbis have even differed in > their views on that, insofar as some have understood the Christian view of > the Trinity as false but not idolatrous. I am fine with the label. It is not > my label for myself, but we can't ignore history and Judah's own development > and from a Jewish point of view such non-Jews are BN. > > James > > > > > On Apr 2, 2009, at 8:19 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > > Hanoch, > Have you personally talked to anyone involved in B'Nai Noach? Might be an > answer (just one of them) to what can I do for the Ephramites. B'Nai Noach > seems to be a first step that could led to more...especially since the > movement is already recognized by the Sanhedrin. > > Kim > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > >> Hey John - >> >> Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! Looking >> forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to see you in >> Israel.... :-) >> *Hanoch >> * >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: >> >>> Wow Hanoch! >>> >>> I think this is the heart of the matter. >>> >>> -- >>> John C. >>> >>> "Be excellent to each other!" >>> Bill and Ted >>> >>> >>> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : >>> -------------- >>> >>> [image: The Careful Student] >>> By: Alice Jonsson >>> [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] >>> >>> This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning >>> program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish history, >>> Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program designed for Jewish >>> adults that hopefully accomplishes many things like getting not so observant >>> to become more so, to teach the already observant about why they are doing >>> what they are doing, to re-teach some material with which people are already >>> familiar but from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach >>> I really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the >>> classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is perhaps the >>> kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be participating in. >>> Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on the >>> internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis who runs the >>> kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to take the classes. I was >>> giddy when he agreed. In the small city where we lived before learning >>> opportunities like this did not exist. It took awhile for me to get over my >>> insecurity about being the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but >>> the learning was worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite >>> and also to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo >>> missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured out that I >>> was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to think I, enemy to >>> missionaries, could actually be one felt like a painful and cruel >>> joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem needs for me to be humble >>> and to remember that I was there to learn about Him, not for my ego. >>> >>> >>> I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox >>> communities and that we need to learn appropriate material for both groups >>> together at least some of the time. Issues about how together or how >>> separate we should all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus out, in my >>> opinion. Some advocate intense levels of separateness, others much >>> less. Clearly these rabbis know infinitely more about the whys than I, and I >>> am not trying to pretend otherwise. I do humbly share my opinion that >>> togetherness in Torah learning has been a positive in my experience. >>> >>> I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I handled >>> it. I offer this only as my opinion. >>> >>> *1.* Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you show >>> up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the entire class >>> because I thought that would be very weird and unnatural. I am not sure it >>> is anyone?s business who does not know me anyway. As I got to know people, I >>> explained what I believe in a comfortable and natural way. But I do not >>> stick my hand out to my classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That >>> feels nutty. >>> >>> *2.* It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules laid >>> out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei Noach. Some of >>> the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need your own rabbi to help >>> you understand, in his opinion, which apply to you and which do not. The >>> person teaching a course you take may not know. Most rabbis do not spend a >>> great deal of time on the subject. Hopefully that will change as more >>> non-Jews become interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in >>> a class designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the >>> teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what does not in >>> the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply ask your own rabbi >>> later. I often saw the learning as general Torah learning which mostly >>> applies to Jews. What I do is something my rabbi determines. >>> >>> *3.* Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I tried >>> to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in general, especially >>> because I might be the first Bat Noach these people meet. It is human nature >>> to generalize ? we all do it. Therefore it perhaps behooves us all to >>> represent a little, to think about the impressions we make on others. I am >>> not trying to suggest we behave like hyper-correct robots or lose our >>> individuality, God forbid. But it is something to think about as we build >>> bridges with anyone, Jew or not. >>> >>> *4.* You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I >>> shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have friends >>> from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, especially >>> within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I grew up with tons of >>> Jewish people so that was hard for me to get used to. Now I really do not >>> care. I am nice, but some people will take it and some will leave it. Some >>> people will take you, some will leave you, just like in any other setting if >>> you think about it. And you and I will take some people and leave others; it >>> is human nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community >>> building still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem >>> and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. >>> >>> *5.* I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk of >>> life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was surprised to see >>> just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really got to learn about the >>> people sitting next to me. Some were not even sure what they believed in >>> religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. Some were Reform. Some people who in >>> the process of converting. Some were Gentiles who had been raised thinking >>> they were Jewish. Some were people who found out they were Jewish later in >>> life. This made me feel less self-conscious. >>> >>> There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together and >>> learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect spiritual >>> nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and chasing toddlers and >>> paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat to sit with such wonderfully >>> educated rabbis and such a delightful and diverse group of people, all of us >>> refocusing our attention on things that are truly important in life ? >>> Hashem, Torah, and working together to fix this world. >>> >>> Read more about Noahide World >>> >>> See More Articles By Alice Jonsson >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/7088537c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:24:41 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:24:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "When bad things happen.." Message-ID: <855590370904021824h5fbddc85t1cac58442c1d94ea@mail.gmail.com> Hey Melanie - I wanted to get back to you the other day, when you sort of, 'took me to task,' :-) for my comments about struggling with the good old, "why does HaShem let bad stuff happen to me..." kind of thing. Firstly, neither I or anyone on this list shoot anyone for saying ANYTHING. We actually prefer to poison them slowly....LOL, G-d forbid! Over the last several days, I have found that looking for an apartment in Israel, while trying to figure out how to ship an entire apartment worth of stuff, and coordinate when it will (allegedly) arrive in Israel, AND to arrange places to stay here after I close up my apartment, while arranging for somewhere to stay in Israel, when my stuff doesn't arrive on time....whew....I could go on and on... But that's EXACTLY the point, and you were totally correct Melanie - the issue isn't about 'struggling with something,' it's more of an issue that we HAVE to do it; period! Had I gone to Israel at age 19, I wouldn't have had to worry about all this stuff...so struggling with it now, is just - irrelevant; I have to live in Israel (and I'm just using this as an example). In hindsight, I needed to have a lot more emunah (faith), and a lot less whining! And you called me on it....and you were right! It's a lesson that I continue to learn, and WILL continue to learn, over and over again until I totally, 'get it!' Thanks for the 'sage like' advice; I'm just glad you weren't close enough to slap me, that's all! LOL Take care, * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/ac33c1fc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:29:05 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:29:05 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904021829v56a13029pfff4c84798b2e38f@mail.gmail.com> Hey Kim, A few hundred Bnei Noah took an 'oath' with the Sanhedrin over the last year. Frankly, I think it's a really serious option for potential residency and citizenship. It's not a "one size fits all" answer though, due to the particular beliefs of some individuals. But definitely worth discussing. BTW..I met many of the folks on this list at a Bnei Noah conference that J David Davis had in Athens, TN back in the mid-90's. Lots of stories... Take care, * Hanoch * On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > James, > Yes, I remember your picture with J. David and Vendyl Jones. I just didn't > know if Hanoch had been involved with the movement. While I desire more for > myself, I do see it as a door that is already open as far as Judah is > concerned. Has there been any talk of B'Nai obtaining citizenship? > Probably just wishful thinking... > > Can't wait to see you in Charlotte! > > Kim > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:40 PM, James Tabor wrote: > >> Kim, >> Quite a few on this list, and in our wider associations, have had pretty >> extensive experience with what the Rabbis call "B'nai Noach," and the >> movement in general. This would include John and Dana Hill who even have a >> BN Web site, Brian and Beth Jones who have had lots of dealings with Rabbi >> Richman, Ray and Terry Selg, and many others. Several of us were part of the >> original BN founding movement that met in Ft Worth in 1990--including your >> mother and me! I have published quite a few articles on BN, including two in >> the Jewish Press and one in Moment magazine. I am part of the Yahoo BN group >> and anyone can join. I have also gone to meetings over the years. Just a >> start but I am glad you have touched on this, as there is plenty out there. >> >> My own sense is that those of us who are oriented to God, Torah, and >> Israel, who are not Jewish, are indeed best labeled as "B'nai Noach," so >> long as we do not worship a man as God, but the Rabbis have even differed in >> their views on that, insofar as some have understood the Christian view of >> the Trinity as false but not idolatrous. I am fine with the label. It is not >> my label for myself, but we can't ignore history and Judah's own development >> and from a Jewish point of view such non-Jews are BN. >> >> James >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 2, 2009, at 8:19 PM, kim alvarado wrote: >> >> Hanoch, >> Have you personally talked to anyone involved in B'Nai Noach? Might be an >> answer (just one of them) to what can I do for the Ephramites. B'Nai Noach >> seems to be a first step that could led to more...especially since the >> movement is already recognized by the Sanhedrin. >> >> Kim >> >> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: >> >>> Hey John - >>> >>> Although I hate to be so agreeable, I'm with ya on this! Looking >>> forward to seeing you in Charlotte, and even more so - to see you in >>> Israel.... :-) >>> *Hanoch >>> * >>> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:12 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Wow Hanoch! >>>> >>>> I think this is the heart of the matter. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John C. >>>> >>>> "Be excellent to each other!" >>>> Bill and Ted >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young < >>>> youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- >>>> >>>> [image: The Careful Student] >>>> By: Alice Jonsson >>>> [image: Email This Article] [image: Print version] >>>> >>>> This week I was blessed to graduate from a three-year Torah learning >>>> program. It was a basic course about various facets of Jewish history, >>>> Tanach, holidays, and kosher living. It is a program designed for Jewish >>>> adults that hopefully accomplishes many things like getting not so observant >>>> to become more so, to teach the already observant about why they are doing >>>> what they are doing, to re-teach some material with which people are already >>>> familiar but from an Orthodox perspective ? stuff like that. As a Bat Noach >>>> I really enjoyed the classes and learned a great deal, even though the >>>> classes were not designed for Bnei Noach. I think that this is perhaps the >>>> kind of activity that more Bnei Noach should be participating in. >>>> Before we moved to Atlanta I had already scoped out the classes on the >>>> internet. Within days of arriving, I went to one of the rabbis who runs the >>>> kollel, told him who I was, and asked permission to take the classes. I was >>>> giddy when he agreed. In the small city where we lived before learning >>>> opportunities like this did not exist. It took awhile for me to get over my >>>> insecurity about being the only non-Jew there who was not converting, but >>>> the learning was worth the discomfort. I asked permission first to be polite >>>> and also to make sure that the rabbis understood that I am not some weirdo >>>> missionary sneaking into their shuls. Eventually they all figured out that I >>>> was telling the truth. As a side note, for someone to think I, enemy to >>>> missionaries, could actually be one felt like a painful and cruel >>>> joke. Ultimately I took it as a sign that Hashem needs for me to be humble >>>> and to remember that I was there to learn about Him, not for my ego. >>>> >>>> >>>> I really feel strongly that Bnei Noach need to be near Orthodox >>>> communities and that we need to learn appropriate material for both groups >>>> together at least some of the time. Issues about how together or how >>>> separate we should all be are ultimately for rabbis to sus out, in my >>>> opinion. Some advocate intense levels of separateness, others much >>>> less. Clearly these rabbis know infinitely more about the whys than I, and I >>>> am not trying to pretend otherwise. I do humbly share my opinion that >>>> togetherness in Torah learning has been a positive in my experience. >>>> >>>> I thought it might be interesting to some people to share how I handled >>>> it. I offer this only as my opinion. >>>> >>>> *1.* Be clear about who you are with the rabbis/teachers before you >>>> show up. Once I was there I did not make an announcement to the entire class >>>> because I thought that would be very weird and unnatural. I am not sure it >>>> is anyone?s business who does not know me anyway. As I got to know people, I >>>> explained what I believe in a comfortable and natural way. But I do not >>>> stick my hand out to my classmates and say, ?Alice Jonsson, Bat Noach.? That >>>> feels nutty. >>>> >>>> *2.* It is crucial that Bnei Noach understand that there are rules laid >>>> out in Torah that apply to Jews and rules that apply to Bnei Noach. Some of >>>> the rules apply to both groups. Some do not. You need your own rabbi to help >>>> you understand, in his opinion, which apply to you and which do not. The >>>> person teaching a course you take may not know. Most rabbis do not spend a >>>> great deal of time on the subject. Hopefully that will change as more >>>> non-Jews become interested in living by the Torah. My point is if you are in >>>> a class designed for Jewish people, perhaps we should try not to bug the >>>> teacher with questions about what applies to Bnei Noach and what does not in >>>> the middle of class. You can ask afterwards or simply ask your own rabbi >>>> later. I often saw the learning as general Torah learning which mostly >>>> applies to Jews. What I do is something my rabbi determines. >>>> >>>> *3.* Although I still struggle to see myself as part of a group, I >>>> tried to remember that what I do reflects upon Bnei Noach in general, >>>> especially because I might be the first Bat Noach these people meet. It is >>>> human nature to generalize ? we all do it. Therefore it perhaps behooves us >>>> all to represent a little, to think about the impressions we make on >>>> others. I am not trying to suggest we behave like hyper-correct robots or >>>> lose our individuality, God forbid. But it is something to think about as we >>>> build bridges with anyone, Jew or not. >>>> >>>> *4.* You might make some friends and then again, you might not. As I >>>> shared earlier, there are people in the Jewish community who have friends >>>> from every community and there are Jewish people who do not, especially >>>> within Orthodoxy. That will probably always be true. I grew up with tons of >>>> Jewish people so that was hard for me to get used to. Now I really do not >>>> care. I am nice, but some people will take it and some will leave it. Some >>>> people will take you, some will leave you, just like in any other setting if >>>> you think about it. And you and I will take some people and leave others; it >>>> is human nature. Even if I did not make a million friends, community >>>> building still occurred. Sometimes just being together and focusing Hashem >>>> and Torah in the same space accomplishes a great deal. >>>> >>>> *5.* I was surprised to learn that there were people from every walk of >>>> life at the classes. That sounds obvious perhaps, but I was surprised to see >>>> just how very diverse a crowd it was once I really got to learn about the >>>> people sitting next to me. Some were not even sure what they believed in >>>> religion wise. Some were uber-Orthodox. Some were Reform. Some people who in >>>> the process of converting. Some were Gentiles who had been raised thinking >>>> they were Jewish. Some were people who found out they were Jewish later in >>>> life. This made me feel less self-conscious. >>>> >>>> There is nothing better for us as human beings than to sit together and >>>> learn Torah. It is water for your thirsty soul. It is perfect spiritual >>>> nutrition. After a long day of changing diapers and chasing toddlers and >>>> paying bills and doing dishes, it was a treat to sit with such wonderfully >>>> educated rabbis and such a delightful and diverse group of people, all of us >>>> refocusing our attention on things that are truly important in life ? >>>> Hashem, Torah, and working together to fix this world. >>>> >>>> Read more about Noahide World >>>> >>>> See More Articles By Alice Jonsson >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/1ae3a062/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:31:23 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:31:23 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom = Selflessness? In-Reply-To: References: <49D2D224.401@westnet.com.au> <014401c9b396$ec36a400$c4a3ec00$@com> Message-ID: <855590370904021831v76f8dcc3lc2bd7b588536b0c3@mail.gmail.com> Hey Web, I think you're totally 'on target' with these observations. And that balancing act is crucial, and is likely to change and become more challenging at times, too. Best regards, * Hanoch * 2009/4/2 Ronnie Hulon > Shalom, > I don't believe that selflessness is not taking care of yourself or loving > yourself, rather it is, as the word implies, caring less about self in order > to make more room for caring more about others. Like all things, this > requires balance. > Web > > ------------------------------ > From: ptyler at aac-usa.com > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 09:28:31 -0400 > Subject: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom = Selflessness? > > Shalom Joe, > > > > Thank you, this is very interesting. I am not sure about the ?selflessness? > thing, though. Yeshua said ?Love your neighbor AS yourself?. I have found > that in my life, I couldn?t truly love another until I learned to love > myself. I couldn?t truly forgive another until I could forgive myself. Years > ago I was so entrenched in his total selflessness that I believed I wasn?t > accepted by HaShem unless I was in some state of suffering/destitution. Just > my thoughts and maybe I need to grow in this area. > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:32 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom] > > > > *Shalom Hanoch and Melanie, > > both of you have put forward some very valid reasons and ??? "who knows" > arguments. > If I may I would like to put a different twist to the subject. One that has > helped me no end. > > In Kabbala there is the concept of "Ein Sof" > > **Ein Sof* (or Ayn Sof) (Hebrew > *??? ???*), in the Kabbalah, is understood as Infinite Divinity. Ein Sof > may be translated as "no end", "unending" or Infinite. Ein Sof is the Divine > Origin of all created existence: this is in contrast to the Ein (or Ayn), > which is infinite no-thingness [1]. > According to Gershom Scholem, > Ein Sof is the Emanator of the *sefirot > .* Sefirot are energy emanations found on the Kabbalist Tree of Life. Ayn > Sof, the Ancient of All Ancients emanates the sefirot into the cosmic womb > of the Ein in a manner that results in the created universe. > > *From this we see that all emanates from HaShem. > Nothing that we do or say can add one minuscule to the reality of HaShem. > He was and is and will be.He is within and without Himself. > > And yet.....* > > *?* ????-??????? ????????, ???????? ??????????????-- > ?????? ???????????, ?????? ????????????. > > *4* When I behold Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, *{N}* > the moon and the stars, which Thou hast established; > > *?* ???-??????? ????-?????????????; ?????-?????, ???? ????????????. > > *5* *What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that > Thou thinkest of him?* > > *?* ??????????????? ??????, ??????????; ???????? ??????? > ?????????????. > > *6* Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels, and hast > crowned him with glory and honour. > > *?* ??????????????, ??????????? ???????; ????, ??????? ?????-????????. > > > *7* Thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou > hast put all things under his feet: > > *?* ????? ?????????? ???????; ?????, ????????? ??????. > > *8* Sheep and oxen, all of them, yea, and the beasts of the field; > > *?* ??????? ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????, ???????? ???????. > > *9* The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea; whatsoever passeth > through the paths of the seas. > > *?* ?????? ??????????: ???-??????? ???????, ??????-???????. > > *10* O LORD, our Lord, how glorious is Thy name in all the earth! *Psalm 8 > :4-10.* > > > *My apologies John, I cannot post without scripture. I am helplessly > devoted to this addiction. However, I will try and keep this short, Bli > Neder. :-D > > This is a cornerstone scripture. > Now comes the paradigm shift. > > As humans we tend to project inwards rather than projecting outwards. When > we do this, even for the noblest of reasons, we are still tainted with ego. > I , for one am guilty of this. My shoes are always ...... from stepping in > it. > > When we say that we endure hardships in order to be refined and become > better persons for it, whilst it does contain an element of truth in it, it > is still bordering on the self. How do I feel, what did I get out of > it,will I be saved, etc. > When we endure for the sake of self, we have missed the plot. > When we endure for the sake of others, then bull's eye. > > Creation was based on one element alone. HASHEM PROJECTED OUT FROM EIN SOF > AND GAVE FORM TO HIS INDIVISIBILTY THROUGH MULTIPLICITY AND THEN TO BRING > THAT MULTIPLICITY INTO UNITY THROUGH MAN - ADAM, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE. > That was the purpose of creation albeit in a very abstract explanation. > This reflected on man being dependent on HaShem as the source of Ein Sof. > This is reflected in the quoted Psalm above. > There is a rabbinic dictum that a man must first engage in a profession, > then build a house and then find a wife, similarly HaShem engaged in the > profession of Creator, built the Earth to sustain mankind and then created > them. > Just think how we in the modern world have everything in the wrong order. > > Man had other ideas of creating his own reality based on independence and > ego. > Hence the fall and the need for redemption. > So redemption is not from Egypt, Babylon, the nations. These serve as > prototypes. > The true redemption is from SELF. > > So, you may call it ego, yetzer hara, the satan, or whatever you may like. > The antidote? > Project yourself out..... away from self. > Suffering comes to our aid as it teaches us empathy as a matter of due > diligence and correction if need be. > Some may view it purely as correction, but I prefer to see and understand > the ramifications of empathy. > This teaches me to be long suffering for the sake of others, to reach out > beyond myself. > > HaShem is long suffering . Just imagine how He sees the world at this very > moment and yet he projects out. > This is the law of giving rather than taking. He sustains regardless. > > Now, back to suffering. Why ? > What I can say is that the ultimate suffering is death. > We aspired to independence in Gan Eden. > At the moment of death we ultimately surrender our ego to HaShem and > pronounce with our last breath our dependence on Him as sole sustainer of > life. > > The purpose of life is to understand and experience this in the here and > now. > What better way to enact this than to give at the expense of self. This > creates ECHAD or oneness. > Those that are obedient will be worthy of redemption from death , both from > a living death of walking in darkness and the sleeping death of eternity. > > His indivisibility must become our indivisibility. Why ? Because we were > created in His image. > > Christianity is obsessed with personal redemption. Torah Judaism is > dedicated to national redemption. > As the rabbis teach : "the death of the righteous atones for the sins of > the generation." > > The role of Mashiach is to be the catalst that unifies the Ein Sof of > HaShem , through his rejection, suffering , death to self and resurrection > to empathy. This is manifested not only in him but as the Yechida or the > collective neshamot (souls) of his people Yisrael. As their representative > all is bound in him. > Please do not misconstrue this as Christian theology, because it is not, it > is pure mystical Judaism. > As the post is already way to long, if anyone is interested I will post > them separately. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE.* > > ------------------------------ > Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/04be44a8/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:33:31 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:33:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just got in this evening and read this. Todah Rabah, Hez! I'm praying this same precious prayer right back at ya!!!! Shalom-Shalom Dear Hez and Miri, Avigail/Pat From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW O my G-d, G-d of my ancestors, on this Shabbat I ask You to bless my friends, relatives and email buddies reading this right now. Where there is pain, give them peace and mercy. Where there is self-doubt, release a renewed confidence through Your grace. Bless their homes, families, finances, their goings and their comings. Amen. Regards all, Hez -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f4ddd181/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f4ddd181/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 5413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/f4ddd181/attachment-0001.jpe From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Apr 2 20:46:15 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 21:46:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 66 - Thank you, James! In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As many times as I have read Isaiah 66:17, this is the first time I've ever realized what it is saying, James! Thank you so much! The fact that HaShem is condemning the nations for eating swine's flesh had always gone right over my head until reading your note tonight. I'm shocked by this revelation! Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don?t hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/93344619/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 2 20:58:41 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:58:41 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW] Message-ID: <49D56D51.1030400@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/e23d83c9/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 20:05:31 EDT Size: 22994 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/e23d83c9/attachment.eml From rndavar at aol.com Thu Apr 2 21:20:22 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 02:20:22 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW] In-Reply-To: <49D56D51.1030400@westnet.com.au> References: <49D56D51.1030400@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <686173160-1238725088-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-761290595-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Good point Joe! Shabbat shalom to all of our southern Torah faithful! Shabbat shalom y'all! I stand corrected.;) Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: JOE INDOMENICO Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 11:58:41 To: Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW] _______________________________________________ From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Apr 2 21:35:04 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 22:35:04 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <027f01c9b404$ce194040$6a4bc0c0$@com> I have to agree here. Swine was forbidden to eat because it is unhealthy. If it is unhealthy for the Jew, isn't it unhealthy for all? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the "Pig" is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don't hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090402/599f82ff/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 07:54:31 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:54:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: <24B8695A751045F6B994A84129A46DBE@bettylaptop> References: <24B8695A751045F6B994A84129A46DBE@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <49D60707.9080100@gninc.ca> Betty Givin wrote: > > Dear Cornie, > > > > And I will remember you and family as well. I have in times past > prayed for you and your family, including Jamie, your grandson, but > now I am reminded again. I have had experience the "hell" of dealing > with someone with bi-polar...you never know what is coming down the > pike. You have my empathy and my prayers and of course my love. > > > > Be encouraged...you are highly esteemed and loved not only by many of > us, but also by HaShem! > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > > * From: * dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Catherine > Cashmore > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:42 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Cornie - music > > Thank you Betty > Like Rabbi Brody says it so well: It's Good to Thank Hashem The best advice for handling any tough situation in life is simply to thank Hashem. "Hashem, I know that You gave me this difficulty as a growth opportunity to make teshuva and to get close to You. Thank You for my difficult situation. I know that there's no tribulations without prior transgression, so help me rectify the wrongdoing the invoked the stern judgment in the first place." With such an attitude, you'll see miraculous solutions to problems that you thought were insurmountable. One of my favorite melodies during hitbodedut is Psalm 92, "It's good to thank Hashem," that Shlomo Katz and I are singing here: So I have found it as again this morning when I was just a bit low, mainly just feeling a bit listless, thinking what good am I here. Some times you just get a bit weary. Than I read what Rabbi Brody says above, and it makes so much sense. Than the next blink of going from one e-mail to the next and there is your encouragement Betty thanks a lot! good timing! Same goes to you, your sweet character likely was born out of trials in your life. Right now I have my ear phones on and just start basking in the consoling music of "One in My Hand" by Tracy Shabbat Shalom Cornie > > > Hi Cornie, > > > > Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really > touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but > from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of > entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize > greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great > patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she > can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I > could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you > to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. > > > > I hope the message of emuna truly her. > > > > Catherine > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/c96c5b56/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 3 08:44:16 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 09:44:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: <49D60707.9080100@gninc.ca> References: <24B8695A751045F6B994A84129A46DBE@bettylaptop> <49D60707.9080100@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Hi Cornie, I know you are responding to Betty here, but what you wrote blessed me so much. Your sweet spirit and words of wisdom are always a great encouragement. Be well and be blessed, Dear Friend, and know how much you mean to us all. Thank you. Shabbat Shalom Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 8:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Betty Givin wrote: Dear Cornie, And I will remember you and family as well. I have in times past prayed for you and your family, including Jamie, your grandson, but now I am reminded again. I have had experience the "hell" of dealing with someone with bi-polar.you never know what is coming down the pike. You have my empathy and my prayers and of course my love. Be encouraged.you are highly esteemed and loved not only by many of us, but also by HaShem! Elisheva/Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:42 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Thank you Betty Like Rabbi Brody says it so well: It's Good to Thank Hashem The best advice for handling any tough situation in life is simply to thank Hashem. "Hashem, I know that You gave me this difficulty as a growth opportunity to make teshuva and to get close to You. Thank You for my difficult situation. I know that there's no tribulations without prior transgression, so help me rectify the wrongdoing the invoked the stern judgment in the first place." With such an attitude, you'll see miraculous solutions to problems that you thought were insurmountable. One of my favorite melodies during hitbodedut is Psalm 92, "It's good to thank Hashem," that Shlomo Katz and I are singing here: So I have found it as again this morning when I was just a bit low, mainly just feeling a bit listless, thinking what good am I here. Some times you just get a bit weary. Than I read what Rabbi Brody says above, and it makes so much sense. Than the next blink of going from one e-mail to the next and there is your encouragement Betty thanks a lot! good timing! Same goes to you, your sweet character likely was born out of trials in your life. Right now I have my ear phones on and just start basking in the consoling music of "One in My Hand" by Tracy Shabbat Shalom Cornie Hi Cornie, Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. I hope the message of emuna truly her. Catherine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/3603f2af/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 09:21:33 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:21:33 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]] In-Reply-To: <49D29339.70603@westnet.com.au> References: <49D29339.70603@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49D61B6D.4090805@gninc.ca> Hey Joe I like to hear what you are saying here, I imagine one like you, quite free to express yourself and outspoken, maybe more so than those who refrain out of fear what others will think, will some times say something you wish you had not, or what ever it is, that you admit to, that you too can make mistakes. So for one like you likely more so than for those of us who do not stretch out or neck, either because we are not gifted like you , or else just not so tuned in. I admire you Joe, there are not many with the depth of understanding that you share, at least having searched for something real from the heart like I sense that you have. And very likely it has taken mistakes of the past to come to that depth of a hunger to have something that will have a positive effect for eternity. A belated Shabat Shalom Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > /Shalom Susie, > > First of all, please refrain from the compliments as I am no better > nor more set apart than the average Joe Bloe :-[ > I am still regretting my past failures and coming to terms with them. > This gives me the impetus to improve my outlook on life. My teshuva is > not complete nor have the required rectifications or repairs come to > maturity. Baruch HaShem , He has given me the ability to see my faults > and the Grace to overcome them. You could say that they are a work in > progress. > > In order to understand this delicate subject I would like to forward > an article that I posted to the group last year. > I am sure it will help you and refresh the memories of those that have > already read it. > > > > //Shalom Chaverim, > > I would like to post an article that has been close to my heart for a > long time. It was written by Rabbi Natan Weisz. > It radically changed my view on life and how I understood Torah. It > challenged me to the very core in as much that it rammed home the > message of Torah observance versus Torah belief. It blew away any > cobwebs ,entrenched and encrusted Christian theology. > > This is a theme that I will expand upon in due time. > > Whilst it may not be the Parashat reading for this day, I maintain > that the sin of the spies is still with us to this very day. > The Rabbis maintain that both temples were destroyed on account of > this sin and that Mashiach is the only one capable of rectifying the > final outcome. > > Unfortunately this theme is in the spotlight once again as the issue > of the_* "land and Yerushalyim"*_ is on the agenda of the world powers > and the Israeli elections. > > I apologize for the length of the article. I encourage you all to > persevere to the end of the article. > > May you all be blessed by this article. > / > > *How to Look for Holiness* > > by Rabbi Natan Weisz. > > /"These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel, on the other > side of the Jordan, in the wilderness, in the Arabah, opposite the > Sea of Reeds, between Paran and Tofel, and Laban and Hazeroth, and > Di-zahab; eleven days from Horeb, by way of Mount Seir to > Kodesh-Barnea." /(Deut. 1:1) > > This description of the venue of Moses' speech cannot have been > intended to guide us to the actual location - there is far too much > confusing detail, and a lot of the places described are not even near > each other. > > For this reason, the rabbis interpreted this verse as being a > description of the content of the speech itself rather than a > description of its location; it informs us that Moses' speech contains > a message of chastisement. In his final speech to them, Moses > chastised the Jewish people and pointed out their shortcomings during > the forty-year desert sojourn that was coming to its conclusion with > his death. Each place mentioned in the verse refers to the venue of a > transgression. > > In the same breath, the Rabbis also stress that this was the only > occasion that Moses ever chastised the entire Jewish nation as a > group, and they cite several reasons for this. (See Rashi's commentary > for the details.) > > But there is something very perplexing about this interpretation. If > he was indeed delivering the only speech of chastisement during his > tenure as the leader of the Jews, Moses was addressing the wrong > audience. Most of the sins and shortcomings he refers to in his speech > - such as the sin of the Golden Calf, or the sin of the spies - were > committed by people who had passed away in the desert. How can we > relate to the idea of chastising a later generation for the sins > committed by their parents or grandparents? > > But this is not the strangest aspect of this speech of chastisement. > On the surface, almost the entire Parsha is dedicated to the simple > recounting the sin of the spies in all its detail and describing its > aftermath without any apparent commentary. If this was a speech of > chastisement, where are the words of chastisement? What is the point > of recording the speech and omitting the chastisement? > > * * * > > *NON-SEQUITUR* > > The answer is obviously that the chastisement is there to see if we > search for it. If we delve beneath the surface a bit, we find that > Moses made two major points. We can uncover the first of these points > by analyzing what appears to be a glaring non-sequitur. (See Deut. 1:6-8.) > > Following the introductory statement referred to, Moses begins his > discourse by relating how God told the Jewish people to leave Mount > Sinai; they had tarried there long enough and it was time to go and > conquer the land. Right after this beginning, Moses makes an > apparently bizarre digression that takes up ten full verses (Deut. > 1:9-18). He describes the implementation of Jethro's advice (offered > in Exodus 18:14-27) concerning the appointment of judges as a means of > reducing his [Moses'] workload to manageable proportions. Then (ibid. > 1:19) he returns once again to the theme of the conquest; the verses > that follow describe the sending of the spies and the issuing of the > edict against the Exodus generation that was its consequence. > > What is the story of the appointment of the judges doing here? What > connection does it have to the story of the spies? > > * * * > > *THE LESSONS OF HISTORY* > > The maxim states; a wise man should always learn from history. Only a > fool repeats mistakes that have already been committed and suffers > needlessly thereby. This seems like good advice, but it is one of > those bits of conventional wisdom that are difficult to apply in > practice. History is easy to understand but difficult to interpret. > The true causes of historical events are often quite obscure, and this > makes the lessons of history difficult to decipher. The task is even > more daunting if you subscribe to the prophetic view of history > followed by Jewish tradition. > > For example, historians offer many sound economic and social reasons > for the rise of the Babylonian Empire. But the Jewish prophets take a > different view. Jeremiah repeatedly refers to Nebuchadnezzar as God's > agent of destruction. Prophetic theory attributes the rise of the > Babylonian Empire to the need to create an agency that had the power > to destroy the Temple and send the Jewish people into exile. > > The emergence of a superpower was a pre-requisite of the destruction. > No simple enemy raider could destroy the Temple. The Jewish people > fought like lions displaying great courage and self-sacrifice to > protect the physical symbol of their connection to God. Indeed, both > Temples were destroyed by the superpowers of the time, which were > compelled to dispatch enormous armies to accomplish the task and > subdue Jewish resistance. > > The major theme of Jeremiah's prophecies concerning the rise of > Babylon is related to the destruction of the first Temple, but Jewish > tradition advances the same theory concerning the rise of Rome and the > destruction of the second Temple. The Talmud associates the rise of > Rome with Solomon's marriage to Pharaoh's daughter, and to the > establishment of idols by Jeroboam (Talmud, Shabbat, 56a). > > * * * > > *JEWISH HISTORIC CAUSE* > > If the theories of Jewish tradition are accurate, Jewish sin is the > true cause of all the enormous upheavals that took place in the > ancient world. Jewish sin is the true cause of all the suffering > caused by the exercise of the immense power of these great empires and > is also responsible for the positive cultural effects of their > existence on human history and culture. Rebellion against God by the > Jewish people renders the continued existence of the Temple impossible > and its destruction mandatory; this makes it mandatory to create an > aggressive force with a sufficient concentration of power to carry out > the task of destruction; the world ends up with imperialistic > superpowers such as Babylon and Rome. > > According to the theory, the economic and social factors that > apparently led to the rise of these great powers would have been > entirely ineffective in the absence of Jewish sin. It is clear that if > we accept this view, we are forced to conclude that the secular > historians who study these events and extract "scientific" principles > that can be applied to related situations are barking up the wrong > tree. The factors that secular historians interpret as causes of great > historic movements are not causes at all. They are actually effects. > > It follows that only the prophets can teach us the true lessons of > history because it is only they who understand them. In a Divinely > directed world only God's spokesmen are able to explain His actions in > an authoritative way. > > * * * > > *BACK TO THE NON-SEQUITUR* > > It is in this vein that we should regard Moses' apparent digression. > Moses was not interested in merely retelling the story of the sin of > the spies; he was interested in pointing out its underlying causes. If > we accept the Torah view that Jewish sin is the underlying cause of > all historic upheaval, then it makes sense to attempt to unravel the > underlying causes of sin itself. Learning the causes of sin is the way > to avoid repeating the mistakes of history. If you know the cause of > sin you can learn to avoid sins in the future and avoid the upheavals > they cause. This is the lesson that Moses wanted to teach the next > generation. This is what needs to be corrected so we do not fall once > again into the pit. > > He was not addressing the wrong audience. He did not wish to merely > chastise. He wanted to teach the Jewish people how to avoid the errors > they committed during his tenure as leader. He called them all > together to teach them the dynamics of history as they must be > understood by Jews. To learn from the mistakes of the past you have to > understand them first. His primary concern was the successful > settlement of the land of Israel, the chief failure of his tenure as > leader. It is understandable that the problem he focused on first in > his final address was the sin of the spies, the main topic of the Parsha. > > If we look at the 'digression' from this perspective, Moses was saying > that the sin of the spies was caused by the same underlying factor as > the failure to object to the loss of Moses' own direct leadership. For > the Jewish people did not protest the setting up of the hierarchy of > courts. They did not tell Moses, "Why are you telling us to hear the > word of God second hand? You are our major link to God. If we insert > layers of authority between you and ourselves, we are in effect > distancing ourselves from God's word. We don't want it." > > The definition of efficiency is to accomplish the same result more > effectively. But as the object of Torah observance is to bring people > closer to God, the implementation of a system that increases the > distance between God and the Jewish people can hardly be termed > efficient. The court system may function more efficiently but the > Jewish system of justice is only a means to an end. The goal it is > directed to reach, a greater closeness to God, would actually recede > with the implementation of the hierarchy of courts. > > * * * > > *REPEATING THE MISTAKE* > > This same mistaken attitude was responsible for the misunderstanding > that led to the sin of the spies. The true object of the conquest of > Israel and the attainment of a Jewish homeland is to enable the Jewish > people to demonstrate to themselves and to the world that even > everyday secular life can bring one to close to God when it is > properly conducted. The attainment of holiness does not require the > abandonment of ordinary existence in favor of a life of contemplation > and asceticism. The path to holiness leads smack through the house, > the farm and the factory. > > The goal of Jewish nationalism must be to demonstrate that Jews can > remain as close to God even as they occupy themselves with building > and maintaining all the trappings associated with the modern secular > state as they were when they were eating manna in the desert and were > engrossed in full time Torah study. Moses himself makes this point > later in his speech. > > /"Then I said to you: Do not be broken and do not fear them! The > Lord your God, Who goes before you - He shall make war for you, > like everything he did for you in Egypt, before your eyes. And in > the wilderness, as you have seen, that the Lord your God bore you, > as a man carries his son on the entire way that you traveled, > until you arrived at this place..." /(Ibid. 29-33) > > The Jews obviously felt that life in the land of Israel would be > fundamentally different than life in the desert. As long as they were > in the desert, the fact that they were forced to rely on God to > conduct their affairs miraculously did not cause them anxiety. They > were up to living with miracles because they were leading very holy, > unmaterialistic lives. But settled in Israel, living a secular life of > comfort and materialism, they did not believe that it would be > possible to maintain the same sort of spiritual intimacy with God. > Secular life is inherently lacking in holiness. Israel was beyond > their reach because they needed miracles to live in Israel and once > they left the desert miracles would be beyond their reach. > > Moses was countering their argument by teaching them that the entire > point of their settling in Israel was the maintenance of the same > relationship and intimacy with God they had in the desert in the midst > of an outwardly secular life; the commandments of the Torah were > designed specifically to enable them to do this. He was using the > story of the appointment of the judges as a teaching aid. No gain in > efficiency is worthwhile if you have to sacrifice your major goals in > order to attain it. > > The Covenant of Sinai was about establishing an intimate relation with > God. The entry into Israel could not possibly jeopardize such intimacy > otherwise it would never have been contemplated. Their parents weren't > willing to listen to this message and he was pleading with them not to > commit the same error. If they failed to realize and appreciate the > goals of Jewish nationalism they were headed for disaster. > > * * * > > *THE SECOND LESSON* > > The first lesson of Moses' speech concerns the factors behind the > commitment of sin. If it is important not to repeat the mistakes of > history, it is just as important to learn how to fix these mistakes in > case they are committed once again. Moses' second lesson concerns the > proper way to correct sins after they have been committed. A full > account of how to remedy the failures of the desert generation must > include a lesson about the proper way to repair the damage to the > relationship with God in the unfortunate event that it has been > allowed to occur. For the desert generation attempted to remedy their > error: > > /"Then you spoke up and said to me, 'We have sinned to God! We > shall go up and do battle according to everything that the Lord, > our God, has commanded us!' Every man of you girded his weapons of > war, and you were ready to ascend the mountain! God said to me: > Tell them, 'Do not ascend and do not do battle, for I am not among > you; so that you will not be struck down before your enemies.' So > I spoke to you but you did not listen. You rebelled against the > word of God and you were willful and climbed the mountain." > /(Ibid. 41-43) > > The Ohr Hachaim asks: Why did God reject this act of collective > repentance? Surely, by readying themselves to conquer the land once > again the Jewish people demonstrated that they had remedied the defect > of the lack of faith in God. Chastised by God's anger they returned to > Moses fully ready and willing to gird their loins and go into battle. > They had obviously overcome their fear of the nations of Canaan and > renewed their faith in God. What did God find unacceptable about their > repentance? > > The key is in God's own words: /"Do not ascend and do not do battle > for I am not among you."/ For anyone whose interest in conquering the > land of Israel is based on a true desire to enter into a state of > intimacy with God, this Divine statement should have functioned as a > bright red light. For God Himself was stating in the clearest terms > 'that I am not among you'; there is no point to making the conquest > now; the spiritual land of Israel is simply not there to be conquered > under the circumstances. Even if the Jewish people could somehow > acquire the physical Israel by the force of arms, in their present > state of sin, living in Israel would not provide the means of > establishing the state of intimacy with God that was the purpose of > the whole enterprise. > > The situation demanded true repentance first; obedience to the > original command would no longer serve the purpose. God's chief > concern was not the act of disobedience itself; the cause of His > powerful reaction was the underlying reason behind the sin. He did not > want the Jewish people in Israel unless they fully understood that the > goal of their entry was to maintain the level of intimacy with God in > the context of ordinary life that they enjoyed in the desert. As soon > as God declared, "I am not among you," they should have abandoned > every other project and focused on repairing the damage to the > relationship with God. They focused on correcting their disobedience > instead. Had they gone about repenting correctly, God's edict against > them would surely have been revoked. > > * * * > > *A FAULTY JUSTICE SYSTEM* > > We generally read this Torah portion on the Shabbat immediately > preceding the 9^th day of Av, the day of the anniversary of the > commission of the sin of the 'shedding tears in vain' whose > consequence was the issuance of the edict of death in the desert > against the Exodus generation. The shedding of these vain tears caused > the need to shed real tears through Jewish history. The 9^th of Av is > also the anniversary of the destruction of both Temples as well as > many other major tragedies of Jewish history such as the expulsion of > the Jews from Spain, from England, and the outbreak of the First World > War. > > The Haftorah reading is taken from Isaiah 1, a chapter that > prophetically warns of the impending destruction of the first Temple. > An examination of the details reveals that the Jewish people had not > yet internalized the lessons of history that Moses had attempted to > teach them. A reading of the Haftorah shows that the Jews of the > period were diligently observing their duties toward God. They were > offering the Temple sacrifices as proscribed, they were faithfully > observing the tri-annual pilgrimage to the Temple, and they were being > diligent in their prayers. Something else was missing, and it was this > missing factor that caused the destruction: > > /"How the faithful city has become a harlot! She had been full of > justice, righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers! Your > silver has become dross, your heady wine diluted with water. Your > princes are wayward and associates of thieves; the whole of them > loves bribery and pursue illegal payments; for the orphan they do > not do justice, the cause of the widow does not come unto them." > /(Isaiah 1:21-23) > > /The prophet brings us right back to Moses' non-sequitur. Once again > it is a faulty justice system that is highlighted as the underlying > cause of destruction. The Jewish justice system is the ultimate > expression of the Jewish people's public attitude towards Torah > observance. When the Jewish justice system reduces to no more than a > method of settling disputes, it reflects an attitude towards the laws > of the Torah that is similar to that of all law-abiding citizens > observing any secular system. Torah law is like any other law. It must > be observed in all particulars and all disputes must be settled > according to its dictates. But this attitude misses the point of Torah > law entirely./ > > /The laws of the Torah were given to us as a means of attaching our > everyday lives to God by investing life's mundane details with > significance and holiness. The Jewish judicial system is intended to > bring God's justice into the world and to reflect the workings of a > society that conducts its business affairs in the light of holiness. > When it takes no notice of the oppression of the widow and the orphan, > when it tolerates bribery and corruption, it indicates that it is > nothing more than the Jewish method of settling human disputes. A > society that has such notions is fundamentally lacking in holiness; it > does not require the land of Israel or God's Temple within it./ > > /Jewish nationalism must be goal directed. Its aim can never be simply > to live peacefully and securely within a Jewish secular state. It must > be focused on the establishment of an intimate relationship between > man and God, to teaching how you can live a normal life in this world > and still be obviously God's holy people. The normal life patterns of > everyday living in a Jewish state must be imbued with spirituality and > reflect holiness. The aim of Jewish life is not the attainment of > holiness through the performance of acts of devotion. The aim is not > to step out of life into holiness; it is nothing short of the > elevation of life itself./ > > Each generation of Jews has to grapple with the same spiritual > problems, and must aim to attain the identical goals. God constantly > readjusts the circumstances of the struggle to conform with the > capacity and cultural orientation of the particular generation of Jews > living at the time, but it is never the historic task that changes, > only the circumstances under which it needs to be carried out. If ever > any generation fully succeeded at the task of demonstrating the > potential Godliness in everyday life, the aim of Jewish history would > be attained and the Messiah would finally come. > > The lessons of Moses apply to all Jews at all times. We must still > correct our historic mistake. There cannot be a viable Jewish state in > the Land of Israel that doesn't concern itself with connecting the > secular trappings of statehood to God. In whatever fashion appropriate > to the times, God must be at the center of the picture. > > /This is a lesson for all of us in our daily lives. > It is not what we believe and study that counts but what we do in the > service of HaShem as His faithful servants; bringing the Holy into > every facet of our lives both spiritual and secular. > Torah without the land makes HaShem's Abrahamic Covenant null and void. > / > > /Shalom v'Ahavah, > JOE./ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > From: > susie getskow > Date: > Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:52:03 -0700 (PDT) > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > > Hey Joe, > > Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who > understand Hebrew. > The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't > necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. > The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or > functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but > wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does > this make sense to anyone? > > Susie > > --- On *Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO //* wrote: > > From: JOE INDOMENICO > Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM > > /Shalom Melanie, > > I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. > > A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the > Old Dart." > No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even > though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) > I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. > > If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will > understand the ways of HaShem. > Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. > So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of > knowing Him. > We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. > > It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that > hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is > always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or > truth of Torah. > > What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and > unfathomable quest for this emet. > In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are > the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. > From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last > and that He was and is and will always be. > Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's > Word is Truth. > > So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have > varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to > get over the occasional speed bumps. > > Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. > Dialogue is the main ingredient. > > I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I > will visit your page to get to know you. > > Tally Ho, ol'chap. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > / > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/8150cd0b/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 09:46:28 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:46:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] To my friends on SWW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D62144.6090405@gninc.ca> Thank you Hez, same to you Cornie Hezakiah4 at aol.com wrote: > *O my G-d, G-d of my ancestors, on this Shabbat I ask You to bless my > friends, relatives and email buddies reading this right now. Where > there is pain, give them peace and mercy. Where there is > self-doubt, release a renewed confidence through Your grace. Bless > their homes, families, finances, their goings and their comings. Amen*. > > > > Regards all, Hez > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/982df461/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 6385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/982df461/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 5413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/982df461/attachment-0001.jpe From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 10:05:24 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:05:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: References: <24B8695A751045F6B994A84129A46DBE@bettylaptop> <49D60707.9080100@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <49D625B4.80106@gninc.ca> Thank you Pat, same to you, you are included, and very dear to me for your warm expressions Shabat Shalom Cornie Patricia Robbins wrote: > Hi Cornie, > > I know you are responding to Betty here, but what you wrote blessed me > so much. Your sweet spirit and words of wisdom are always a great > encouragement. Be well and be blessed, Dear Friend, and know how much > you mean to us all. Thank you. > > Shabbat Shalom > > Pat > > *From:* Cornie Reimer > *Sent:* Friday, April 03, 2009 8:54 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Cornie - music > > Betty Givin wrote: >> >> Dear Cornie, >> >> >> >> And I will remember you and family as well. I have in times past >> prayed for you and your family, including Jamie, your grandson, but >> now I am reminded again. I have had experience the "hell" of dealing >> with someone with bi-polar...you never know what is coming down the >> pike. You have my empathy and my prayers and of course my love. >> >> >> >> Be encouraged...you are highly esteemed and loved not only by many of >> us, but also by HaShem! >> >> >> >> Elisheva/Betty >> >> >> >> *From: *dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Catherine >> Cashmore >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:42 AM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Cornie - music >> >> Thank you Betty >> > Like Rabbi Brody says it so well: It's Good to Thank Hashem > > The best advice for handling any tough situation in life is simply to > thank Hashem. "Hashem, I know that You gave me this difficulty as a > growth opportunity to make teshuva and to get close to You. Thank You > for my difficult situation. I know that there's no tribulations > without prior transgression, so help me rectify the wrongdoing the > invoked the stern judgment in the first place." With such an attitude, > you'll see miraculous solutions to problems that you thought were > insurmountable. > > One of my favorite melodies during hitbodedut is Psalm 92, "It's good > to thank Hashem," that Shlomo Katz and I are singing here: > > So I have found it as again this morning when I was just a bit low, > mainly just feeling a bit listless, thinking what good am I here. Some > times you just get a bit weary. Than I read what Rabbi Brody says > above, and it makes so much sense. Than the next blink of going from > one e-mail to the next and there is your encouragement Betty thanks a > lot! good timing! Same goes to you, your sweet character likely was > born out of trials in your life. Right now I have my ear phones on and > just start basking in the consoling music of "One in My Hand" by Tracy > > Shabbat Shalom > > Cornie > > >> >> > >> Hi Cornie, >> >> >> >> Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really >> touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but >> from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of >> entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize >> greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great >> patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she >> can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I >> could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you >> to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. >> >> >> >> I hope the message of emuna truly her. >> >> >> >> Catherine >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/f6e19259/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Apr 3 10:55:09 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 66 - Thank you, James! In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is interesting that this passage in Isaiah 66:17 is the very one that grabbed me very strongly over two decades ago and caused me to stop eating pork, and this was several years before the idea of converting to Judaism ever entered my mind. In my mind I was still very much a Christian. I agree, the judgment by HaShem here is clearly against the nations. Thanks, James for bringing this out. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:46 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 66 - Thank you, James! As many times as I have read Isaiah 66:17, this is the first time I've ever realized what it is saying, James! Thank you so much! The fact that HaShem is condemning the nations for eating swine's flesh had always gone right over my head until reading your note tonight. I'm shocked by this revelation! Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:49 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the "Pig" is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don't hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/04a76ecb/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Apr 3 14:21:01 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:21:01 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <264518612-1238716182-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-935498339-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 11:36:46 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:36:46 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Isaiah 66 - Thank you, James! Message-ID: If you back up some to verse 66:14, where it talks of Hashem's sevants and enemies. Commentary says His servants: His followers. I retract that Gentiles that follow G-d can eat pork and agree with James. Who besides a Jew follows Hashem? Those that follow the Noahide laws. Gut Shabbos,chaverim, Hez **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/4ea62018/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 11:53:23 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:53:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030e01c9b47c$b51bc450$1f534cf0$@com> Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years - and their model? The Jews! PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the "Monthly Homeopathic Review" GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day's date. A correspondent who signs himself "Common Sense" writes as follows to the St. James' Gazette: "Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig's flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as 'dairy-fed pork'. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small 'cysts' or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system." (emphasis mine.) If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/032b17bb/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Apr 3 15:06:20 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:06:20 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com><033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com> <855590370904021829v56a13029pfff4c84798b2e38f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c9b497$a84f23f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Gee Hanoch I can't remember seeing you in Tenn. I"ve been to all of the Tenn Conferences since 86, after meeting J David in Israel. You must have been very quiet at that time? Any pics?? Subject: Re: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective BTW..I met many of the folks on this list at a Bnei Noah conference that J David Davis had in Athens, TN back in the mid-90's. Lots of stories... Take care, Hanoch On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote: James, Yes, I remember your picture with J. David and Vendyl Jones. I just didn't know if Hanoch had been involved with the movement. While I desire more for myself, I do see it as a door that is already open as far as Judah is concerned. Has there been any talk of B'Nai obtaining citizenship? Probably just wishful thinking... _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/14450044/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 12:41:00 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 13:41:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <264518612-1238716182-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-935498339-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <033301c9b483$5c265020$1472f060$@com> Hi Dick, I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are filled". How true this statement is today. Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 12:54:53 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 10:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Dick, ? I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. ? Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? ? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/044c636e/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 13:09:07 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 In-Reply-To: <030e01c9b47c$b51bc450$1f534cf0$@com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <030e01c9b47c$b51bc450$1f534cf0$@com> Message-ID: <49D650C3.7080505@gninc.ca> Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. Cornie Patty wrote: > > Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities > have known about the dangers of pork for years -- and their model? The > Jews! > > > > PORK AND CANCER > > To the Editors of the "Monthly Homeopathic Review" > > > > GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the /Birmingham > Daily Post/ of this day's date. > > > > A correspondent who signs himself "Common Sense" writes as follows to > the /St. James' Gazette/: "Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs > among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig's > flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean > food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being > a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely > that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was > recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some > bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, > that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London > hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed > the pigs, which eventually became what is known as 'dairy-fed pork'. I > have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small 'cysts' or > tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, > trichinosis, is associated with pork*, it is not beyond the bounds of > probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal > as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the > system." *(emphasis mine.)** > > > > If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should > be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may > write on this subject in the /Review/. > > Is it /possible /that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of > it? It seems to me incredible. /If/ it /is/ true, it is a /very/ > serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious > charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is /not/ true, > then the hospitals of London should at /once/ take the matter up and > deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork /in > any form whatever/, should be most scrupulously avoided and > discontinued as an article of diet. > > > > For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape > whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I > feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would /very/ materially > add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import > of the charge in the statement as /per/ newspaper cutting, prompts me > at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you > will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing > you so long a letter. > > > > Yours very cordially, > > SAMUEL ROBINSON > > Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. > > /September/ 11/^th /, 1901. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/b56a68cf/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 13:19:43 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 In-Reply-To: <49D650C3.7080505@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Cornie, ? As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing what I asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said so," was good enough and that they trusted that my asking was because I loved them and wanted nothing but the best for them. ? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which? the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized? that? much of the Torah? is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps.? Cornie Patty wrote: Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ? and their model? The Jews! ? PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the ?Monthly Homeopathic Review? ? GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day?s date. ? A correspondent who signs himself ?Common Sense? writes as follows to the St. James? Gazette: ?Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig?s flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as ?dairy-fed pork?. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small ?cysts? or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system.? (emphasis mine.) ? If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. ? For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. ? Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. ? ? ? ??????????????? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/a7ddd0db/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 3 13:37:45 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:37:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 In-Reply-To: <49D650C3.7080505@gninc.ca> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <030e01c9b47c$b51bc450$1f534cf0$@com> <49D650C3.7080505@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Thank you so much for this article, Patty, and for your comments, Cornie. You are right in saying that we are to do first and later understand, Cornie. At Mount Sinai the people answered "We will do and we will hear" Exodus 24:7, meaning they were willing to follow HaShem even before they understood the particulars. I remember when our Rabbi taught us about this profound declaration. Shabbat Shalom everyone, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. Cornie Patty wrote: Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years - and their model? The Jews! PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the "Monthly Homeopathic Review" GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day's date. A correspondent who signs himself "Common Sense" writes as follows to the St. James' Gazette: "Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig's flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as 'dairy-fed pork'. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small 'cysts' or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system." (emphasis mine.) If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/b0f84d2f/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 14:08:36 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:08:36 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! Message-ID: In a message dated 4/3/2009 1:41:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patty writes: I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are filled". How true this statement is today. I think it was a bit hard to carry that out while being burned at the stake for being a heretic, being forced to convert, and being driven from where we lived. Regards,Hez **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/6a364eff/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:16:32 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:16:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904031216k6c94f832j2d8cde6e39bb6913@mail.gmail.com> Dick and all, I would like to start off by saying that I apologize for offending anyone. I'm sure there are also many righteous gentiles who choose to eat pork. It is a decision that every one must make for himself/herself. I can only speak for myself. For me to eat pork would be wrong. When I turned back to HaShem about three years ago (for the second time-another story, another time), the first thing studied was the Noahide Commandments. I didn't see how I could abstain from blood, if I eat pork, or any other meat for that matter, unless I bought it from a kosher butcher (or learned to slaughter it myself) I decided that it would be much easier to just not eat meat. I had been vegetarian before, so that is what I did. I don't miss it and feel a lot better. HaShem is still working on me. Diet was probably one of the easier things to change. Many other things don't come so easy. It is a process. I'm on a path. I certainly don't represent myself as Jewish, but as a follower of Hashem, seeking to do his will to the best of my understanding. Love and Blessings to you all, Kim On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, susie getskow wrote: > Hey Dick, > > I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was > not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another > thought. > > Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles > did not want to give up their Gentile ways? > > Susie > > --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L * wrote: > > From: Dick L > Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM > > When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do > so > many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are > Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what > G-d has giving them. > We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or > the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then > become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L > > > Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in > the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage > disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine > flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! > Paul > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: kim alvarado > > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 > To: > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/f7033bdb/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:19:31 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:19:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904031219y25097457u1aa2b02360acddc3@mail.gmail.com> True, but this is a different time. Gentiles are seeking Torah. All in HaShem's timing.... On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:08 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 4/3/2009 1:41:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patty > writes: > > I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become > a > Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. > This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are > filled". How true this statement is today. > > I think it was a bit hard to carry that out while being burned at the > stake for being a heretic, being forced to convert, and being driven from > where we lived. Regards,Hez > > ------------------------------ > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession > . > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/9b0693a8/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 14:44:06 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:44:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 In-Reply-To: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> Susie I agree with you, we raised 8 children , even the Christian way. Even though there may be no evidence of truth for what we taught them, like for example, the virgin birth of a God etc., and thanks to Torah, that is different, the Torah even may have been translated wrong as we get it, or whatever the case. But when I follow what it teaches it seems to me it does not deceive us, it can be proven even by archaeologists, where as any authentic evidence that Jesus was God, as I taught my own children, and believed myself most of my life, does not seem to be grounded on real truth. Now I have changed, but my children still believe what I taught them. Am I getting off the topic? If so, maybe it is because I just finished watching a DVD "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE". A Film Beyond Belief." This could have been cast by an atheist, but a number of Christians were questioned for proof of what they believe, when it comes to the test if he as proof, he gets offended and walks out of the room, this is a leader responsible for 1800 pupils in a Christian Academy. susie getskow wrote: > Hey Cornie, > > As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing what I > asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said so," was good > enough and that they trusted that my asking was because I loved them > and wanted nothing but the best for them. > > Susie > > --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer //* wrote: > > From: Cornie Reimer > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British > Homoeopathic Review, 1901 > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM > > Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, > for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number > one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the > instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often > take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I > understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot > of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike > other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, > and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which > goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are > created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah > teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which > the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, > so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss > a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us > reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to > respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. > > If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the > impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we > understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why > you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not > for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, > till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, > especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us > others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that > light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly > voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. > > Cornie > > > > Patty wrote: >> >> Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical >> communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ? and >> their model? The Jews! >> >> >> > PORK AND CANCER > > To the Editors of the ?Monthly Homeopathic Review? > > > > GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the > /Birmingham Daily Post/ of this day?s date. > > > > A correspondent who signs himself ?Common Sense? writes as follows > to the /St. James? Gazette/: ?Is it not a fact that cancer rarely > occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of > food as pig?s flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were > always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome > as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can > be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by > its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who > personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the > substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is > was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by > barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which > eventually became what is known as ?dairy-fed pork?. I have > examined bacon frequently, and have often found small ?cysts? or > tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, > trichinosis, is associated with pork*, it is not beyond the bounds > of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding > animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into > the system.? *(emphasis mine.) > > > > If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and > should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical > gentleman may write on this subject in the /Review/. > > Is it /possible /that the London Hospital Authorities are > cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. /If/ it /is/ true, it > is a /very/ serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a > most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If > it is /not/ true, then the hospitals of London should at /once/ > take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If > it is true, then pork /in any form whatever/, should be most > scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. > > > > For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape > whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and > I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would /very/ > materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the > serious import of the charge in the statement as /per/ newspaper > cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed > cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon > your valued space in writing you so long a letter. > > > > Yours very cordially, > > SAMUEL ROBINSON > > Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. > > /September/ 11/^th /, 1901. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/e3b63dca/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 14:51:49 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:51:49 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <030e01c9b47c$b51bc450$1f534cf0$@com> <49D650C3.7080505@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <037401c9b495$a46d40c0$ed47c240$@com> Thanks for reading Pat and Shabbat Shalom to you and yours. Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 Thank you so much for this article, Patty, and for your comments, Cornie. You are right in saying that we are to do first and later understand, Cornie. At Mount Sinai the people answered "We will do and we will hear" Exodus 24:7, meaning they were willing to follow HaShem even before they understood the particulars. I remember when our Rabbi taught us about this profound declaration. Shabbat Shalom everyone, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. Cornie Patty wrote: Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years - and their model? The Jews! PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the "Monthly Homeopathic Review" GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day's date. A correspondent who signs himself "Common Sense" writes as follows to the St. James' Gazette: "Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig's flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as 'dairy-fed pork'. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small 'cysts' or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system." (emphasis mine.) If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/f87beacb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:52:56 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:52:56 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "It's Good to Thank HaShem" Message-ID: <855590370904031252t56667b99x7a73eadc3aa3bd0d@mail.gmail.com> It's Good to Thank Hashem Rav Lazer Brody The best advice for handling any tough situation in life is simply to thank Hashem. "Hashem, I know that You gave me this difficulty as a growth opportunity to make teshuva and to get close to You. Thank You for my difficult situation. I know that there's no tribulations without prior transgression, so help me rectify the wrongdoing the invoked the stern judgment in the first place." With such an attitude, you'll see miraculous solutions to problems that you thought were insurmountable. One of my favorite melodies during hitbodedut is Psalm 92, "It's good to thank Hashem," that Shlomo Katz and I are singing here: Click here: YouTube - Shlomo Katz and Rabbi Lazer Brody: Psalm 92, Tov L'Hodot This Shabbat is Shabbat HaGadol - have a wonderful Shabbat and weekend! Friday, 03 April 2009 * Shabbat Shalom!* *Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/5aaf884c/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 14:53:04 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:53:04 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <037901c9b495$cf986e50$6ec94af0$@com> Why was Israel "driven from where you lived"? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! In a message dated 4/3/2009 1:41:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patty writes: I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are filled". How true this statement is today. I think it was a bit hard to carry that out while being burned at the stake for being a heretic, being forced to convert, and being driven from where we lived. Regards,Hez _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/fc8eb557/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 14:55:54 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective In-Reply-To: <00aa01c9b497$a84f23f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com> <033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com> <1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com> <855590370904021829v56a13029pfff4c84798b2e38f@mail.gmail.com> <00aa01c9b497$a84f23f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <855590370904031255i5555d679h9a01833d2885367@mail.gmail.com> Hey Dick, It was November '95 - the weekend that Rabin was killed. I wasn't on the speaking agenda, but spoke with many people individually. It was a tremendous learning experience for me - and I was far more shy then, then I am now :-) * Hanoch * On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Dick L wrote: > *Gee Hanoch I can't remember seeing you in Tenn. I"ve been to all of the > Tenn Conferences since 86, after meeting J David in Israel. You must have > been very quiet at that time? Any pics?? * > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective > > ** > BTW..I met many of the folks on this list at a Bnei Noah conference > that J David Davis had in Athens, TN back in the mid-90's. Lots of > stories... > > Take care, > * Hanoch > * > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > >> James, >> Yes, I remember your picture with J. David and Vendyl Jones. I just >> didn't know if Hanoch had been involved with the movement. While I desire >> more for myself, I do see it as a door that is already open as far as Judah >> is concerned. Has there been any talk of B'Nai obtaining citizenship? >> Probably just wishful thinking... >> >> ** >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/9a31aa36/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Fri Apr 3 14:56:50 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:56:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 In-Reply-To: <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> References: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <49D66A02.8000504@gninc.ca> What I wrote about not believing on Jesus as God, I want to be careful toward anyone who may read this, not to be an offense, who believes Jesus is God, I am not trying to take that away from you. In fact my whole family believes that way including my own dear wife. We are getting along quite well in spite of them all knowing what I believe now, I don't argue about it, but I try to still be a good example to them according to the teaching of a Noahide. until I too know better. Cornie Cornie Reimer wrote: > Susie I agree with you, we raised 8 children , even the Christian way. > Even though there may be no evidence of truth for what we taught > them, like for example, the virgin birth of a God etc., and thanks to > Torah, that is different, the Torah even may have been translated > wrong as we get it, or whatever the case. But when I follow what it > teaches it seems to me it does not deceive us, it can be proven even > by archaeologists, where as any authentic evidence that Jesus was God, > as I taught my own children, and believed myself most of my life, > does not seem to be grounded on real truth. Now I have changed, but my > children still believe what I taught them. > > Am I getting off the topic? If so, maybe it is because I just finished > watching a DVD "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE". A Film Beyond Belief." This > could have been cast by an atheist, but a number of Christians were > questioned for proof of what they believe, when it comes to the test > if he as proof, he gets offended and walks out of the room, this is a > leader responsible for 1800 pupils in a Christian Academy. Cornie > > > susie getskow wrote: >> Hey Cornie, >> >> As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing what I >> asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said so," was good >> enough and that they trusted that my asking was because I loved them >> and wanted nothing but the best for them. >> >> Susie >> >> --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer //* wrote: >> >> From: Cornie Reimer >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British >> Homoeopathic Review, 1901 >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM >> >> Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, >> for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number >> one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the >> instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often >> take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I >> understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a >> lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, >> unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a >> scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much >> of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their >> bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as >> the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary >> to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done >> away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions >> serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. >> Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to >> find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you >> others will agree. >> >> If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have >> the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we >> understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why >> you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not >> for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, >> till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, >> especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us >> others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that >> light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly >> voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. >> >> Cornie >> >> >> >> Patty wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical >>> communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ? and >>> their model? The Jews! >>> >>> >>> >> PORK AND CANCER >> >> To the Editors of the ?Monthly Homeopathic Review? >> >> >> >> GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the >> /Birmingham Daily Post/ of this day?s date. >> >> >> >> A correspondent who signs himself ?Common Sense? writes as >> follows to the /St. James? Gazette/: ?Is it not a fact that >> cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an >> article of food as pig?s flesh seems to point to the reason. If a >> pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as >> wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any >> food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds >> is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend >> of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames >> what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told >> him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, >> which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the >> pigs, which eventually became what is known as ?dairy-fed pork?. >> I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small >> ?cysts? or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a >> special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork*, it is not >> beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a >> notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of >> all kinds of disease into the system.? *(emphasis mine.) >> >> >> >> If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and >> should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical >> gentleman may write on this subject in the /Review/. >> >> Is it /possible /that the London Hospital Authorities are >> cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. /If/ it /is/ true, it >> is a /very/ serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a >> most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If >> it is /not/ true, then the hospitals of London should at /once/ >> take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. >> If it is true, then pork /in any form whatever/, should be most >> scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. >> >> >> >> For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape >> whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and >> I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would /very/ >> materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising >> the serious import of the charge in the statement as /per/ >> newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the >> enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my >> trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. >> >> >> >> Yours very cordially, >> >> SAMUEL ROBINSON >> >> Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. >> >> /September/ 11/^th /, 1901. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/5f629bff/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 15:07:56 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:07:56 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! Message-ID: Hi Sue, Just like the points I made on Jesus the Pharisee on the board, and that is bringing up the Noahide laws. While being bound to the seven, there is nothing that says a Noahide can't take on other mitzvot. Granted there are a few they are not allowed to take on like a fully observant Shabbos, but they can observe the Sabbath as long as they do a small act to not follow it completely such as striking a match. Christianity today can thank it's present form to its death grip on the Roman/Greco/Pagan influences of the church. regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 1:55:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _gets52000 at yahoo.com_ (mailto:gets52000 at yahoo.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/dbb5f472/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 15:10:29 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:10:29 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! Message-ID: Hello ptyler at aac-usa.com, In reference to your comment: Why was Israel ?driven from where you lived?? Ask the Catholic church ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 3:53:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Why was Israel ?driven from where you lived?? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! In a message dated 4/3/2009 1:41:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patty writes: I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are filled". How true this statement is today. I think it was a bit hard to carry that out while being burned at the stake for being a heretic, being forced to convert, and being driven from where we lived. Regards,Hez ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/9e07afd3/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 15:37:26 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:37:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03b101c9b49c$01714c70$0453e550$@com> What does it say in the Tanak? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! Hello ptyler at aac-usa.com, In reference to your comment: Why was Israel ?driven from where you lived?? Ask the Catholic church ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 3:53:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Why was Israel ?driven from where you lived?? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! In a message dated 4/3/2009 1:41:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patty writes: I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are filled". How true this statement is today. I think it was a bit hard to carry that out while being burned at the stake for being a heretic, being forced to convert, and being driven from where we lived. Regards,Hez _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/59401c90/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 15:56:51 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:56:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse In-Reply-To: <03b101c9b49c$01714c70$0453e550$@com> References: <03b101c9b49c$01714c70$0453e550$@com> Message-ID: <03bc01c9b49e$b7e96ad0$27bc4070$@com> Deut.30 [16] In that I command thee this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and YHWH your Elohim shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17] But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; [18] I denounce unto you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days upon the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: [20] That you may love YHWH your Elohim, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which YHWH swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. I think it is rather obvious here, since Israel and Judah were in fact driven from the land, that they (we) chose poorly. Shabbat Shalom, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/51d4fb2d/attachment.html From stephen at 777jesusislord.com Fri Apr 3 16:06:17 2009 From: stephen at 777jesusislord.com (stephen) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:06:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Amazing Photos References: <49D66DE0.E517A.6631@pop.directnic.com> Message-ID: <1668C51AE42C43198E1F029F5D76BA46@SEWVAC011> These are just some amazing photos. http://www.realitytvlounge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20080 Stephen From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 16:25:32 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:25:32 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! Message-ID: I can tell you what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that some offshoot religion of Judaism would spend the better part of 2000 years murdering us in the name of their Greco/Roman mangod.Here,Patty,have some church history and some quotes of their leaders. A lot of Christian try saying,"Oh,they weren't real Christians.", but the fact remains at those time periods,they were the only Christians. Have some church history that shows its love thy neighbor policies of murdering out of superstitious fear. Various reasons were given by the church from accusations of spreading the Black Plague, poisoning wells, using the blood of Christian children to make matzah for Passover, desecration of the Host, and other superstitious nonsense.Then you have the teachings of the "saints" and popes.All these called that the Jews would be punished and were being punished. Seems that punishment came more from the church than God though.The list of all of them is way to long to post here so I just posted the first few of dozens. This is not anti-Catholic rhetoric, it is quotes from their own books of teachings.If you think these concepts are ancient history, I have some right up to the 1950's and a bunch more compliments of the Protestant church.I guess it's easy to say Hashem is punishing someone when you're holding the whip, sword and torch,huh? |_ 388 C.E. -- First synagogue burned by the Bishop of Kallinikon. |_ 4th Century -- Synagogues burned by Christians. Thousands of Jews slain |_ 5th Century -- Bishop Innocentius of Dertona (Italy) destroys Synagogues. |_ 694 C.E. -- Jews enslaved. Jews lose rights and property Jewish children forced to be baptized. |_ 1010 C.E. -- Jews who didn't convert to Christianity were killed. |_ 1096 C.E. -- First Crusade. 12,000 Jews slaughtered throughout Europe. |_ 1147 C.E. -- Second Crusade. Hundreds of French Jews killed. |_ 1189 C.E. -- Third Crusade. Jews banished altogether from Great Britain. |_ 1234 C.E. -- Thirty Four German Jewish individuals slain in Fulda, Germany. |_ 1257-67 -- English Jewish Community was exterminated. |_ 1290 C.E. -- 12,000 Jews slaughtered in Poland and Bohemia. |_ 1337 C.E. -- German Jew-killing craze reached 51 German towns. |_ 1348 C.E. -- 2,000 French and Swiss Jews burned. |_ 1349 C.E. -- In more than 350 European towns, Jews murdered.Most were burned alive. |_ 1389 C.E. -- Three-hundred Jews killed in Prague. |_ 1341 C.E. -- Archbishop leads 4,000 Jews to be killed and 25,000 to be sold as slaves. |_ 1392 C.E. -- While Columbus journeyed to the new world, three-hundred thousand Jews were expelled from Spain. |_ 1648 C.E. -- Chmielnitzki massacres in Poland. About 200,000 Jews were sadistically tortured to death (POPE) CLEMENT I: (d.101) Highly esteemed Christian martyr and Apolistic Father of the Church who blamed the Jews for Nero's persecution of the Christians. (SAINT) JUSTIN MARTYR: (100-165) Recognized as one of the most important early Christian writers, and also one of the original anti-Jewish church fathers revealed his anti-Semitism when he stated in the year 116 that: "The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith." QUINTAS SPETIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN: (160-230) Latin Church Father who bruited that: "The Jews formed the breeding ground of all anti-Christian actions." (SAINT) HIPPOLYTUS: Roman Priest (170-236) who was obsessed with the belief that the Jews were receiving and would continue to receive God's punishment for having murdered Jesus. The "Saint" avouched: "Now then, incline thine ear to me and hear my words, and give heed, thou Jew. Many a time does thou boast thyself, in that thou didst condemn Jesus of Nazareth to death,and didst give him vinegar and gall to drink; and thou dost vaunt thyself because of this.Come, therefore, and let us consider together whether perchance thou dost boast unrighteously, O, Israel, and whether thou small portion of vinegar and gall has not brought down this fearful threatening upon thee and whether this is not the cause of thy present condition involved in these myriad of troubles." ORIGEN: Well-known teacher and preacher credited as the greatest theological scholar of the early church. Born in Egypt (185) his works range from Contra Celsum (which abolishes idolatry) to Hexapla (Old Testament scholarly work). But when it came to Jews, his comments were less scholarly: "On account of their unbelief and other insults which they heaped upon Jesus, the Jews will not only suffer more than others in the judgment which is believed to impend over the world, but have even already endured such sufferings. For what nation is in exile from their own metropolis, and from the place sacred to the worship of their fathers, save the Jews alone? And the calamities they have suffered because they were a most wicked nation, which although guilty of many other sins, yet has been punished severely for none as for those that were committed against our Jesus." EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA: The first historian of the Christian Church (265-339), and credited author speaks in Demonstration of the Gospel (I.I.) of how the royal metropolis of the Jews would be destroyed by fire and the city would be inhabited no longer by Jews, "but by races of other stock, while they [Jews] would be dispersed among the Gentiles throughout the whole world with never a hope of any cessation of evil or breathing space from trouble. Furthermore, he claimed that Jews in every community crucified a Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He also made a distinction between Hebrews [who he saw as "good men of the Old Testament"] and Jews [who he characterized as "evil."] (SAINT) HILARY: Noted author from Potieres (315-367) who spoke of the Jews as "a people who had always persisted in iniquity [sin] and out of its abundance of evil glorified in wickedness." (SAINT) JOHN CHRYSOSTOM: The strongest attacks on Jews and Judaism by the Church Fathers are to be found in the homilies of Chrysostom (344-407) in his Antioch sermons. He is considered to be among the most beloved and admired in Church history. Besides his proclamation of Jews as "godless, idolaters, pedicides, stoners of prophets, and commiters of 10,000 horrors Chrysostom said in his book Orations Against The Jews that: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, rapacious, greedy. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." (year 379) Furthermore, he wrote: "The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan...they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews,a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition.The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to a level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen. The synagogue is a curse, obstinate in her error, she refuses to see or hear, she has deliberately perverted her judgment; she has extinguished with herself the light of the Holy Spirit." Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race because of their "odious assassination of Christ for which crime there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a servitude without end." He also declared in one sermon that the Jews "built a brothel in Egypt, made love madly with the barbarians, and worship- ped foreign gods" (page 2). He elaborated further on God's punishment of the Jews: "But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will. Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them. Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you [Jews] and rejected you once for all?" On yet another occasion Chrysostom is quoted as saying "I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews." Chrysostom's homilies were to be used in seminaries and schools for centuries as model sermons, with the result that his message of hate would be passed down to succeeding generations of theologians. The nineteenth century Protestant cleric R.S. Storr called him "one of the most eloquent preachers who ever since apostolic times have brought to men the divine tidings of truth and love." A contemporary of Storr, the great theologian John Henry Cardinal Newman, described Chrysostom as a "bright, cheerful, gentle soul, a sensitive heart." (SAINT) GREGORY: Turkish (Nyssa) Saint (330- 395) who gave the following indictment directed at the Jews: "Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the Devil,brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness." (SAINT) AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO: (354-430) Church Bishop and Father who characterized the Jews as "willfully blind to Holy Scripture, lacking in understanding, and haters of truth." Further, he affirmed: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 4:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: What does it say in the Tanak? **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/926b1c36/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Fri Apr 3 16:30:48 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:30:48 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Message-ID: Ok,so Hashem punished us by throwing us out of the land so we could be forced by pain of death to worship the god of Christianity and be murdered for not doing so and driven from everywhere we settled because we worshipped Hashem and not Jesus. Yeah,that makes sence. Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 4:57:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Deut.30 [16] In that I command thee this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and YHWH your Elohim shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17] But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; [18] I denounce unto you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days upon the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: [20] That you may love YHWH your Elohim, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which YHWH swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. I think it is rather obvious here, since Israel and Judah were in fact driven from the land, that they (we) chose poorly. Shabbat Shalom, Patty _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/c289ae54/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 17:34:57 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 18:34:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03dc01c9b4ac$6d334160$4799c420$@com> The Israelites/Judahites were punished for worshipping Baal, the Queen of Heaven, etc. Do your homework. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Ok,so Hashem punished us by throwing us out of the land so we could be forced by pain of death to worship the god of Christianity and be murdered for not doing so and driven from everywhere we settled because we worshipped Hashem and not Jesus. Yeah,that makes sence. Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 4:57:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Deut.30 [16] In that I command thee this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and YHWH your Elohim shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17] But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; [18] I denounce unto you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days upon the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: [20] That you may love YHWH your Elohim, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which YHWH swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. I think it is rather obvious here, since Israel and Judah were in fact driven from the land, that they (we) chose poorly. Shabbat Shalom, Patty _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/f539ee76/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 17:37:53 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 18:37:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03e101c9b4ac$d5ad0370$81070a50$@com> Hez, I am sorry that you are so negative. The Jews aren't the only people in the world to have suffered. These events below all occurred after the destruction of Jerusalem. Why was Israel/Judah expelled in the first place? Lighten up, bro J Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:26 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! I can tell you what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that some offshoot religion of Judaism would spend the better part of 2000 years murdering us in the name of their Greco/Roman mangod.Here,Patty,have some church history and some quotes of their leaders. A lot of Christian try saying,"Oh,they weren't real Christians.", but the fact remains at those time periods,they were the only Christians. Have some church history that shows its love thy neighbor policies of murdering out of superstitious fear. Various reasons were given by the church from accusations of spreading the Black Plague, poisoning wells, using the blood of Christian children to make matzah for Passover, desecration of the Host, and other superstitious nonsense.Then you have the teachings of the "saints" and popes.All these called that the Jews would be punished and were being punished. Seems that punishment came more from the church than God though.The list of all of them is way to long to post here so I just posted the first few of dozens. This is not anti-Catholic rhetoric, it is quotes from their own books of teachings.If you think these concepts are ancient history, I have some right up to the 1950's and a bunch more compliments of the Protestant church.I guess it's easy to say Hashem is punishing someone when you're holding the whip, sword and torch,huh? |_ 388 C.E. -- First synagogue burned by the Bishop of Kallinikon. |_ 4th Century -- Synagogues burned by Christians. Thousands of Jews slain |_ 5th Century -- Bishop Innocentius of Dertona (Italy) destroys Synagogues. |_ 694 C.E. -- Jews enslaved. Jews lose rights and property Jewish children forced to be baptized. |_ 1010 C.E. -- Jews who didn't convert to Christianity were killed. |_ 1096 C.E. -- First Crusade. 12,000 Jews slaughtered throughout Europe. |_ 1147 C.E. -- Second Crusade. Hundreds of French Jews killed. |_ 1189 C.E. -- Third Crusade. Jews banished altogether from Great Britain. |_ 1234 C.E. -- Thirty Four German Jewish individuals slain in Fulda, Germany. |_ 1257-67 -- English Jewish Community was exterminated. |_ 1290 C.E. -- 12,000 Jews slaughtered in Poland and Bohemia. |_ 1337 C.E. -- German Jew-killing craze reached 51 German towns. |_ 1348 C.E. -- 2,000 French and Swiss Jews burned. |_ 1349 C.E. -- In more than 350 European towns, Jews murdered.Most were burned alive. |_ 1389 C.E. -- Three-hundred Jews killed in Prague. |_ 1341 C.E. -- Archbishop leads 4,000 Jews to be killed and 25,000 to be sold as slaves. |_ 1392 C.E. -- While Columbus journeyed to the new world, three-hundred thousand Jews were expelled from Spain. |_ 1648 C.E. -- Chmielnitzki massacres in Poland. About 200,000 Jews were sadistically tortured to death (POPE) CLEMENT I: (d.101) Highly esteemed Christian martyr and Apolistic Father of the Church who blamed the Jews for Nero's persecution of the Christians. (SAINT) JUSTIN MARTYR: (100-165) Recognized as one of the most important early Christian writers, and also one of the original anti-Jewish church fathers revealed his anti-Semitism when he stated in the year 116 that: "The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith." QUINTAS SPETIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN: (160-230) Latin Church Father who bruited that: "The Jews formed the breeding ground of all anti-Christian actions." (SAINT) HIPPOLYTUS: Roman Priest (170-236) who was obsessed with the belief that the Jews were receiving and would continue to receive God's punishment for having murdered Jesus. The "Saint" avouched: "Now then, incline thine ear to me and hear my words, and give heed, thou Jew. Many a time does thou boast thyself, in that thou didst condemn Jesus of Nazareth to death,and didst give him vinegar and gall to drink; and thou dost vaunt thyself because of this.Come, therefore, and let us consider together whether perchance thou dost boast unrighteously, O, Israel, and whether thou small portion of vinegar and gall has not brought down this fearful threatening upon thee and whether this is not the cause of thy present condition involved in these myriad of troubles." ORIGEN: Well-known teacher and preacher credited as the greatest theological scholar of the early church. Born in Egypt (185) his works range from Contra Celsum (which abolishes idolatry) to Hexapla (Old Testament scholarly work). But when it came to Jews, his comments were less scholarly: "On account of their unbelief and other insults which they heaped upon Jesus, the Jews will not only suffer more than others in the judgment which is believed to impend over the world, but have even already endured such sufferings. For what nation is in exile from their own metropolis, and from the place sacred to the worship of their fathers, save the Jews alone? And the calamities they have suffered because they were a most wicked nation, which although guilty of many other sins, yet has been punished severely for none as for those that were committed against our Jesus." EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA: The first historian of the Christian Church (265-339), and credited author speaks in Demonstration of the Gospel (I.I.) of how the royal metropolis of the Jews would be destroyed by fire and the city would be inhabited no longer by Jews, "but by races of other stock, while they [Jews] would be dispersed among the Gentiles throughout the whole world with never a hope of any cessation of evil or breathing space from trouble. Furthermore, he claimed that Jews in every community crucified a Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He also made a distinction between Hebrews [who he saw as "good men of the Old Testament"] and Jews [who he characterized as "evil."] (SAINT) HILARY: Noted author from Potieres (315-367) who spoke of the Jews as "a people who had always persisted in iniquity [sin] and out of its abundance of evil glorified in wickedness." (SAINT) JOHN CHRYSOSTOM: The strongest attacks on Jews and Judaism by the Church Fathers are to be found in the homilies of Chrysostom (344-407) in his Antioch sermons. He is considered to be among the most beloved and admired in Church history. Besides his proclamation of Jews as "godless, idolaters, pedicides, stoners of prophets, and commiters of 10,000 horrors Chrysostom said in his book Orations Against The Jews that: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, rapacious, greedy. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." (year 379) Furthermore, he wrote: "The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan...they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews,a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition.The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to a level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen. The synagogue is a curse, obstinate in her error, she refuses to see or hear, she has deliberately perverted her judgment; she has extinguished with herself the light of the Holy Spirit." Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race because of their "odious assassination of Christ for which crime there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a servitude without end." He also declared in one sermon that the Jews "built a brothel in Egypt, made love madly with the barbarians, and worship- ped foreign gods" (page 2). He elaborated further on God's punishment of the Jews: "But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will. Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them. Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you [Jews] and rejected you once for all?" On yet another occasion Chrysostom is quoted as saying "I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews." Chrysostom's homilies were to be used in seminaries and schools for centuries as model sermons, with the result that his message of hate would be passed down to succeeding generations of theologians. The nineteenth century Protestant cleric R.S. Storr called him "one of the most eloquent preachers who ever since apostolic times have brought to men the divine tidings of truth and love." A contemporary of Storr, the great theologian John Henry Cardinal Newman, described Chrysostom as a "bright, cheerful, gentle soul, a sensitive heart." (SAINT) GREGORY: Turkish (Nyssa) Saint (330- 395) who gave the following indictment directed at the Jews: "Slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the Devil,brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness." (SAINT) AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO: (354-430) Church Bishop and Father who characterized the Jews as "willfully blind to Holy Scripture, lacking in understanding, and haters of truth." Further, he affirmed: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 4:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: What does it say in the Tanak? _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/84927c54/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Fri Apr 3 17:54:50 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 22:54:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Peace for the list Message-ID: <1934346509-1238799156-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-17848863-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just a quick observation before good friends get angry and true dialogue takes a set back... Truth is that MANY Christians and those who still have a positive view of the "historical Jesus" are awakening to "things Hebraic". My.list is meant to bring people together for mutual understanding and to advance Torah faith. My prayer is that Jews and non-Jews will come together in harmony for that cause. Atrocities of the past have certainly happened and many of those under a Christian banner, but no one on this list (that I know of) has been or ever will be part of such. Keep the Torah Faith movement going forward and realize that more and more people will be waking up. When they come, some of them will know very little. I want people to feel welcome-Jews and others alike. Try and spend your energies on writing posts that do not promote single agendas, but encourage peace, the pursuance of peace and drawing people to the Torah. Thanks and Shabbat shalom! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Apr 3 18:05:31 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:05:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: <03e101c9b4ac$d5ad0370$81070a50$@com> References: <03e101c9b4ac$d5ad0370$81070a50$@com> Message-ID: <61F52BC2-9153-42EB-8573-66192CB1D4A3@earthlink.net> John Hulley has shown with totally documented evidence that more radical Protestants who denied the Catholic Church, Trinity, etc. have died than Jews over the past 2000 years. Not that it is a contest but the facts are, if you really look at history, that the Church over various period was more willing to "tolerate" (not by any means love or cozy up to) Jews than their own who had left the faith. But why even carry on this kind of "who suffered the most" thing? It makes no sense. I would really recommend Hulley's work to all for a wonderful balance on the entire topic. Best and Shabbat Shalom, James On Apr 3, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Patty wrote: > Hez, I am sorry that you are so negative. The Jews aren?t the only > people in the world to have suffered. These events below all > occurred after the destruction of Jerusalem. Why was Israel/Judah > expelled in the first place? > > Lighten up, bro J > Patty > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:26 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! > > I can tell you what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that some > offshoot religion of Judaism would spend the better part of 2000 > years murdering us in the name of their Greco/Roman > mangod.Here,Patty,have some church history and some quotes of their > leaders. A lot of Christian try saying,"Oh,they weren't real > Christians.", but the fact remains at those time periods,they were > the only Christians. > > Have some church history that shows its love thy neighbor policies > of murdering out of superstitious fear. Various reasons were given > by the church from accusations of spreading the Black Plague, > poisoning wells, using the blood of Christian children to make > matzah for Passover, desecration of the Host, and other > superstitious nonsense.Then you have the teachings of the "saints" > and popes.All these called that the Jews would be punished and were > being punished. Seems that punishment came more from the church than > God though.The list of all of them is way to long to post here so I > just posted the first few of dozens. > This is not anti-Catholic rhetoric, it is quotes from their own > books of teachings.If you think these concepts are ancient history, > I have some right up to the 1950's and a bunch more compliments of > the Protestant church.I guess it's easy to say Hashem is punishing > someone when you're holding the whip, sword and torch,huh? > > |_ 388 C.E. -- First synagogue burned by the Bishop of Kallinikon. > > |_ 4th Century -- Synagogues burned by Christians. Thousands of Jews > slain > > |_ 5th Century -- Bishop Innocentius of Dertona (Italy) destroys > Synagogues. > > > |_ 694 C.E. -- Jews enslaved. Jews lose rights and property Jewish > children forced to be baptized. > > |_ 1010 C.E. -- Jews who didn't convert to Christianity were killed. > > |_ 1096 C.E. -- First Crusade. 12,000 Jews slaughtered throughout > Europe. > > |_ 1147 C.E. -- Second Crusade. Hundreds of French Jews killed. > > |_ 1189 C.E. -- Third Crusade. Jews banished altogether from Great > Britain. > > |_ 1234 C.E. -- Thirty Four German Jewish individuals slain in > Fulda, Germany. > > |_ 1257-67 -- English Jewish Community was exterminated. > > |_ 1290 C.E. -- 12,000 Jews slaughtered in Poland and Bohemia. > > |_ 1337 C.E. -- German Jew-killing craze reached 51 German towns. > > |_ 1348 C.E. -- 2,000 French and Swiss Jews burned. > > |_ 1349 C.E. -- In more than 350 European towns, Jews murdered.Most > were burned alive. > > |_ 1389 C.E. -- Three-hundred Jews killed in Prague. > > |_ 1341 C.E. -- Archbishop leads 4,000 Jews to be killed and 25,000 > to be sold as slaves. > > |_ 1392 C.E. -- While Columbus journeyed to the new world, three- > hundred thousand Jews were expelled from Spain. > > |_ 1648 C.E. -- Chmielnitzki massacres in Poland. About 200,000 Jews > were sadistically tortured to death > (POPE) CLEMENT I: (d.101) Highly esteemed Christian martyr and > Apolistic Father of the Church who blamed the Jews for Nero's > persecution of the Christians. > > > (SAINT) JUSTIN MARTYR: (100-165) Recognized as > one of the most important early Christian writers, and also one of > the original anti-Jewish church fathers revealed his anti-Semitism > when he stated in the year 116 that: "The Jews were behind all the > persecutions > of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere > hating and undermining the Christian faith." > > QUINTAS SPETIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN: (160-230) Latin Church Father > who bruited that: "The Jews formed the breeding ground of all anti- > Christian actions." > > (SAINT) HIPPOLYTUS: Roman Priest (170-236) who was obsessed with the > belief that the Jews were receiving and would continue to receive > God's punishment for having murdered Jesus. The "Saint" avouched: > "Now then, incline thine ear to me and hear > my words, and give heed, thou Jew. Many a time does thou boast > thyself, in that thou > didst condemn Jesus of Nazareth to death,and didst give him vinegar > and gall to drink; > and thou dost vaunt thyself because of this.Come, therefore, and let > us consider together whether perchance thou dost boast > unrighteously, O, Israel, and whether thou small > portion of vinegar and gall has not brought down this fearful > threatening upon thee and > whether this is not the cause of thy present condition involved in > these myriad of troubles." > > ORIGEN: Well-known teacher and preacher credited as the greatest > theological scholar of the early church. Born in Egypt (185) his > works range from Contra Celsum (which abolishes idolatry) to > Hexapla(Old Testament scholarly work). But when it came to Jews, his > comments were less scholarly: "On account of their unbelief and > other insults which they heaped upon Jesus, the Jews will not only > suffer more than others in the judgment which is believed to impend > over the world, but have even already endured such sufferings. > For what nation is in exile from their own metropolis, and from the > place sacred to the worship of their fathers, save the Jews alone? > And the calamities they have suffered because they were a most > wicked nation, which although guilty of many other sins, yet has > been punished severely for none as for those that were committed > against our Jesus." > > EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA: The first historian of the Christian Church > (265-339), and credited author speaks in Demonstration of the Gospel > (I.I.) of how the royal metropolis of the Jews would be destroyed > by fire and the city would be inhabited no longer by > Jews, "but by races of other stock, while they [Jews] would be > dispersed among the Gentiles throughout the whole world with never a > hope of any cessation of evil or breathing space from trouble. > Furthermore, he claimed that Jews in every community crucified a > Christian at their Purim festival as a rejection of Jesus. He also > made a distinction between Hebrews [who he saw as "good men of the > Old Testament"] and Jews [who he characterized as "evil."] > > (SAINT) HILARY: Noted author from Potieres (315-367) who spoke of > the Jews as "a people who had always persisted in iniquity [sin] and > out of its abundance of evil glorified in wickedness." > > (SAINT) JOHN CHRYSOSTOM: The strongest attacks on Jews and Judaism > by the Church Fathers are to be found in the homilies of Chrysostom > (344-407) in his Antioch sermons. He is considered to be among the > most beloved and admired in Church > history. Besides his proclamation of Jews as "godless, idolaters, > pedicides, stoners of prophets, and commiters of 10,000 horrors > Chrysostom said in his book Orations > Against The Jews that: > "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, > rapacious, greedy. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They > worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the > odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation > possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease > vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always > hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate > them." (year 379) > > Furthermore, he wrote: > "The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan...they are worse than > wild beasts. The > synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons > devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews,a place of > meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling > of > iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition.The Jews have fallen into a > condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness > have brought them to a level of the lusty goat and the pig. They > know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to > kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen. The > synagogue is a curse, obstinate in her error, she refuses to see or > hear, she has deliberately perverted her judgment; she has > extinguished with herself the light of the Holy Spirit." > > Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race > because of their "odious assassination of Christ for which crime > there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for > which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a > servitude without end." He also declared in one sermon that the Jews > "built a brothel in Egypt, made love madly with the barbarians, and > worship- ped foreign gods" (page 2). He elaborated further on God's > punishment of the Jews: "But it was men, says the Jew, who brought > these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact > God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect > again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the > power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will. Men would > certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them. Is it not > obvious that it was because God hated you [Jews] and rejected you > once for all?" > > On yet another occasion Chrysostom is quoted as saying "I hate the > Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it > has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to > hate the Jews." > > Chrysostom's homilies were to be used in seminaries and schools for > centuries as model sermons, with the result that his message of hate > would be passed down to succeeding generations of theologians. The > nineteenth century Protestant cleric R.S. Storr called him "one of > the most eloquent preachers who ever since apostolic times have > brought to men the divine tidings of truth and love." A contemporary > of Storr, the great theologian John Henry Cardinal Newman, described > Chrysostom as a "bright, cheerful, gentle soul, a > sensitive heart." > > (SAINT) GREGORY: Turkish (Nyssa) Saint (330- 395) who gave the > following indictment directed at the Jews: "Slayers of the Lord, > murderers of the prophets, adversaries of God, men who show contempt > for the Law, foes of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, > advocates of the Devil,brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men > whose minds are in darkness, leaven of the Pharisees, assembly of > demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners, and haters of righteousness." > > (SAINT) AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO: (354-430) Church Bishop and Father who > characterized the Jews as "willfully blind to Holy Scripture, > lacking in understanding, and haters of truth." Further, he > affirmed: "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells > the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and > forever > will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus." > > ========Original Message======== > Subj: > RE: [Dialogue] Hello! > Date: > 4/3/2009 4:37:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time > From: > ptyler at aac-usa.com > To: > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent on: > > What does it say in the Tanak? > > > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/8021dc43/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Apr 3 18:11:49 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:11:49 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom & Lighten up... References: <342015.57880.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59907F72-1E22-4F2C-856D-0CB037A0D66B@earthlink.net> INCORRECT SPELLING HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY LEFT IN. 1. IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE, GUINESSIS. GOD GOT TIRED OF CREATING THE WORLD SO HE TOOK THE SABBATH OFF. 2. ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED FROM AN APPLE TREE. NOAH'S WIFE WAS JOAN OF ARK. NOAH BUILT AND ARK AND THE ANIMALS CAME ON IN PEARS. 3. LOTS WIFE WAS A PILLAR OF SALT DURING THE DAY, BUT A BALL OF FIRE DURING THE NIGHT. 4. THE JEWS WERE A PROUD PEOPLE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH UNSYMPATHETIC GENITALS. 5. SAMPSON WAS A STRONGMAN WHO LET HIMSELF BE LED ASTRAY BY A JEZEBEL LIKE DELILAH.. 6. SAMSON SLAYED THE PHILISTINES WITH THE AXE OF THE APOSTLES. 7 MOSES LED THE JEWS TO THE RED SEA WHERE THEY MADE UNLEAVENED BREAD WHICH IS BREAD WITHOUT ANY INGREDIENTS. 8. THE EGYPTIANS WERE ALL DROWNED IN THE DESSERT.AFTERWARDS, MOSES WENT UP TO MOUNT CYANIDE TO GET THE TEN COMMANDMENTS 9. THE FIRST COMMANDMENTS WAS WHEN EVE TOLD ADAM TO EAT THE APPLE. 10. THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT IS THOU SHALT NOT ADMIT ADULTERY. 11. MOSES DIED BEFORE HE EVER REACHED CANADA THEN JOSHUA LED THE HEBREWS IN THE BATTLE OF GERITOL. 12. THE GREATEST MIRICLE IN THE BIBLE IS WHEN JOSHUA TOLD HIS SON TO STAND STILL AND HE OBEYED HIM. 13. DAVID WAS A HEBREW KING WHO WAS SKILLED AT PLAYING THE LIAR. HE FOUGHT THE FINKELSTEINS, A RACE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN BIBLICAL TIMES. 14. SOLOMON, ONE OF DAVIDS SONS, HAD 300 WIVES AND 700 PORCUPINES. 15. WHEN MARY HEARD SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, SHE SANG THE MAGNA CARTA. 16. WHEN THE THREE WISE GUYS FROM THE EAST SIDE ARRIVED THEY FOUND JESUS IN THE MANAGER. 17. JESUS WAS BORN BECAUSE MARY HAD AN IMMACULATE CONTRAPTION. 18. ST. JOHN THE BLACKSMITH DUMPED WATER ON HIS HEAD. 19. JESUS ENUNCIATED THE GOLDEN RULE, WHICH SAYS TO DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO ONE TO YOU. HE ALSO EXPLAINED A MAN DOTH NOT LIVE BY SWEAT ALONE. 20. IT WAS A MIRICLE WHEN JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND MANAGED TO GET THE TOMBSTONE OFF THE ENTRANCE. 21. THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THE LORD WERE CALLED THE 12 DECIBELS. 22. THE EPISTELS WERE THE WIVES OF THE APOSTLES. 23. ONE OF THE OPPOSSUMS WAS ST. MATTHEW WHO WAS ALSO A TAXIMAN. 24. ST. PAUL CAVORTED TO CHRISTIANITY, HE PREACHED HOLY ACRIMONY WHICH IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MARRAIGE. 25. CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE SPOUSE. THIS IS CALLED MONOTONY. From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 18:15:20 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:15:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Peace for the list In-Reply-To: <1934346509-1238799156-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-17848863-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1934346509-1238799156-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-17848863-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <03fe01c9b4b2$10c62810$32527830$@com> Okay, sorry, Ross, sorry Hez. Have a WONDERFUL Shabbat! Love & Blessings, Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 6:55 PM To: Dialogue List Subject: [Dialogue] Peace for the list Just a quick observation before good friends get angry and true dialogue takes a set back... Truth is that MANY Christians and those who still have a positive view of the "historical Jesus" are awakening to "things Hebraic". My.list is meant to bring people together for mutual understanding and to advance Torah faith. My prayer is that Jews and non-Jews will come together in harmony for that cause. Atrocities of the past have certainly happened and many of those under a Christian banner, but no one on this list (that I know of) has been or ever will be part of such. Keep the Torah Faith movement going forward and realize that more and more people will be waking up. When they come, some of them will know very little. I want people to feel welcome-Jews and others alike. Try and spend your energies on writing posts that do not promote single agendas, but encourage peace, the pursuance of peace and drawing people to the Torah. Thanks and Shabbat shalom! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 3 18:19:46 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:19:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom & Lighten up... In-Reply-To: <59907F72-1E22-4F2C-856D-0CB037A0D66B@earthlink.net> References: <342015.57880.qm@web58903.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <59907F72-1E22-4F2C-856D-0CB037A0D66B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <03ff01c9b4b2$aef2b5d0$0cd82170$@com> Hey James, this is too funny! Reminds me of a recent gig where some guy told me I had a great libido. He meant VIBRATO. Shabbat Shalom! Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 7:12 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom & Lighten up... INCORRECT SPELLING HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY LEFT IN. 1. IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE, GUINESSIS. GOD GOT TIRED OF CREATING THE WORLD SO HE TOOK THE SABBATH OFF. 2. ADAM AND EVE WERE CREATED FROM AN APPLE TREE. NOAH'S WIFE WAS JOAN OF ARK. NOAH BUILT AND ARK AND THE ANIMALS CAME ON IN PEARS. 3. LOTS WIFE WAS A PILLAR OF SALT DURING THE DAY, BUT A BALL OF FIRE DURING THE NIGHT. 4. THE JEWS WERE A PROUD PEOPLE AND THROUGHOUT HISTORY THEY HAD TROUBLE WITH UNSYMPATHETIC GENITALS. 5. SAMPSON WAS A STRONGMAN WHO LET HIMSELF BE LED ASTRAY BY A JEZEBEL LIKE DELILAH.. 6. SAMSON SLAYED THE PHILISTINES WITH THE AXE OF THE APOSTLES. 7 MOSES LED THE JEWS TO THE RED SEA WHERE THEY MADE UNLEAVENED BREAD WHICH IS BREAD WITHOUT ANY INGREDIENTS. 8. THE EGYPTIANS WERE ALL DROWNED IN THE DESSERT.AFTERWARDS, MOSES WENT UP TO MOUNT CYANIDE TO GET THE TEN COMMANDMENTS 9. THE FIRST COMMANDMENTS WAS WHEN EVE TOLD ADAM TO EAT THE APPLE. 10. THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT IS THOU SHALT NOT ADMIT ADULTERY. 11. MOSES DIED BEFORE HE EVER REACHED CANADA THEN JOSHUA LED THE HEBREWS IN THE BATTLE OF GERITOL. 12. THE GREATEST MIRICLE IN THE BIBLE IS WHEN JOSHUA TOLD HIS SON TO STAND STILL AND HE OBEYED HIM. 13. DAVID WAS A HEBREW KING WHO WAS SKILLED AT PLAYING THE LIAR. HE FOUGHT THE FINKELSTEINS, A RACE OF PEOPLE WHO LIVED IN BIBLICAL TIMES. 14. SOLOMON, ONE OF DAVIDS SONS, HAD 300 WIVES AND 700 PORCUPINES. 15. WHEN MARY HEARD SHE WAS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, SHE SANG THE MAGNA CARTA. 16. WHEN THE THREE WISE GUYS FROM THE EAST SIDE ARRIVED THEY FOUND JESUS IN THE MANAGER. 17. JESUS WAS BORN BECAUSE MARY HAD AN IMMACULATE CONTRAPTION. 18. ST. JOHN THE BLACKSMITH DUMPED WATER ON HIS HEAD. 19. JESUS ENUNCIATED THE GOLDEN RULE, WHICH SAYS TO DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO ONE TO YOU. HE ALSO EXPLAINED A MAN DOTH NOT LIVE BY SWEAT ALONE. 20. IT WAS A MIRICLE WHEN JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND MANAGED TO GET THE TOMBSTONE OFF THE ENTRANCE. 21. THE PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWED THE LORD WERE CALLED THE 12 DECIBELS. 22. THE EPISTELS WERE THE WIVES OF THE APOSTLES. 23. ONE OF THE OPPOSSUMS WAS ST. MATTHEW WHO WAS ALSO A TAXIMAN. 24. ST. PAUL CAVORTED TO CHRISTIANITY, HE PREACHED HOLY ACRIMONY WHICH IS ANOTHER NAME FOR MARRAIGE. 25. CHRISTIANS HAVE ONLY ONE SPOUSE. THIS IS CALLED MONOTONY. _______________________________________________ From creechmargie at yahoo.com Fri Apr 3 18:32:23 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 150 Message-ID: <371814.56336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Shabbat Shalom, ? Praise G-d in His sanctuary praise Him in the sky, His stronghold. Praise Him for His mighty acts; praise Him for His exceeding greatness Praise Him with blasts of the horn; praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dance; praise Him with lute and pipe. Praise Him with resounding cymbals; praise Him with loud-clashing cymbals. Let all that breathes praise the L-rd.? Hallelujah! ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCBC63_tJc ? ? Margie ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090403/cf1debef/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 06:35:50 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:35:50 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. Message-ID: <49D74616.2080105@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/96bedb6b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 06:40:44 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:40:44 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Psalm 150] Message-ID: <49D7473C.7080902@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/336a73ed/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Margie Creech Subject: [Dialogue] Psalm 150 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Size: 6587 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/336a73ed/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 06:52:39 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 21:52:39 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]]] Message-ID: <49D74A07.7070703@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/14ca162c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!]] Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:21:33 -0500 Size: 61340 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/14ca162c/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 07:02:01 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:02:01 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]]] Message-ID: <49D74C39.4010300@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/137e0d7a/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: susie getskow Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Emuna = Freedom]] Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 17:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Size: 13858 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/137e0d7a/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 07:16:24 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:16:24 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YouTube - Shomer Yisrael - Guardian of Israel Message-ID: <49D74F98.7060006@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/df0dd130/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 07:23:58 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:23:58 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Min HaMetzar - from the depths Message-ID: <49D7515E.2090409@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/ea93633b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 07:28:03 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:28:03 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?b?4oCr16rXpNeZ15zXlCDXntee16LXnten15nXnSAt?= =?utf-8?q?_From_the_depths_i_called_you_hashem=E2=80=AC=E2=80=8E?= Message-ID: <49D75253.3010509@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/7ec1a24c/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 12:32:59 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:32:59 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <264518612-1238716182-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-935498339-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <033301c9b483$5c265020$1472f060$@com> Message-ID: <005301c9b54b$66300ed0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Are U saying that Israel is not G-d's chosen anymore because they were supposed to do something????? They have found it very diffficult to do so in the past, but are begining to now. They are accepting those that believe in the one 'G-d of Israel, or none of us would be talking to the Rabbi's now. I guess my point is---When it reads in the Torah, "speak unto the chrildren of Israel" , Hashem is speaking only to his chosen. When it reads , "To all flesh" it means all mankind, or both Jew & Gentile. > Hi Dick, > > I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a > Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. > This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are > filled". How true this statement is today. > > Patty > > > > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L > > When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so > many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are > Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what > G-d has giving them. > We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or > the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then > become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L > > > Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in > the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage > disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine > flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! > Paul > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: kim alvarado > > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 > To: > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 12:43:15 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:43:15 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! References: <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006601c9b54c$d56ef350$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/ff794360/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 12:52:39 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:52:39 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! References: <002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8><418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1c8dbb6e0904031216k6c94f832j2d8cde6e39bb6913@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008d01c9b54e$25824260$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> No apologize's necessary at all on this network. Love to hear from all. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: kim alvarado To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! Dick and all, I would like to start off by saying that I apologize for offending anyone. I'm sure there are also many righteous gentiles who choose to eat pork. It is a decision that every one must make for himself/herself. I can only speak for myself. For me to eat pork would be wrong. When I turned back to HaShem about three years ago (for the second time-another story, another time), the first thing studied was the Noahide Commandments. I didn't see how I could abstain from blood, if I eat pork, or any other meat for that matter, unless I bought it from a kosher butcher (or learned to slaughter it myself) I decided that it would be much easier to just not eat meat. I had been vegetarian before, so that is what I did. I don't miss it and feel a lot better. HaShem is still working on me. Diet was probably one of the easier things to change. Many other things don't come so easy. It is a process. I'm on a path. I certainly don't represent myself as Jewish, but as a follower of Hashem, seeking to do his will to the best of my understanding. Love and Blessings to you all, Kim On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 12:54 PM, susie getskow wrote: Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/b072c5bb/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 12:59:38 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:59:38 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] ] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 References: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <00b401c9b54f$1f7672f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> They do not even believe there own Bible?? 1 Thess 5:21. Prove all thing hold fast to that which is good. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: Cornie Reimer To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 Am I getting off the topic? If so, maybe it is because I just finished watching a DVD "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE". A Film Beyond Belief." This could have been cast by an atheist, but a number of Christians were questioned for proof of what they believe, when it comes to the test if he as proof, he gets offended and walks out of the room, this is a leader responsible for 1800 pupils in a Christian Academy. susie getskow wrote: Hey Cornie, As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing what I asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said so," was good enough and that they trusted that my asking was because I loved them and wanted nothing but the best for them. Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. Cornie Patty wrote: Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ? and their model? The Jews! PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the ?Monthly Homeopathic Review? GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day?s date. A correspondent who signs himself ?Common Sense? writes as follows to the St. James? Gazette: ?Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig?s flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as ?dairy-fed pork?. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small ?cysts? or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system.? (emphasis mine.) If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/bb849287/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 13:07:18 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:07:18 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective References: <855590370903301724t7d768f36p1b4c5defe5a23346@mail.gmail.com><033120090312.4971.49D18A1C0005F6730000136B22230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><855590370904021653s65e0aecdtae1d9d77779443e8@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0904021719y5fb95b3fv9edb244798eaaa1f@mail.gmail.com><1c8dbb6e0904021810r788dbed8t78186b32e34152fb@mail.gmail.com><855590370904021829v56a13029pfff4c84798b2e38f@mail.gmail.com><00aa01c9b497$a84f23f0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <855590370904031255i5555d679h9a01833d2885367@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e601c9b550$31a83c50$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Well wish I could have know U sooner. We did have large turnouts back there . Great times,as it was our begininngs of a new understanding. Dick L Subject: Re: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective Hey Dick, It was November '95 - the weekend that Rabin was killed. I wasn't on the speaking agenda, but spoke with many people individually. It was a tremendous learning experience for me - and I was far more shy then, then I am now :-) Hanoch On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Dick L wrote: Gee Hanoch I can't remember seeing you in Tenn. I"ve been to all of the Tenn Conferences since 86, after meeting J David in Israel. You must have been very quiet at that time? Any pics?? Subject: Re: [Dialogue] From a Bnei Noach perspective BTW..I met many of the folks on this list at a Bnei Noah conference that J David Davis had in Athens, TN back in the mid-90's. Lots of stories... Take care, Hanoch On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 6:10 PM, kim alvarado wrote: James, Yes, I remember your picture with J. David and Vendyl Jones. I just didn't know if Hanoch had been involved with the movement. While I desire more for myself, I do see it as a door that is already open as far as Judah is concerned. Has there been any talk of B'Nai obtaining citizenship? Probably just wishful thinking... _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/a11cb667/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sat Apr 4 13:11:48 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 10:11:48 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! References: Message-ID: <00fe01c9b550$d25affc0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> A small point U may bring up that I use is---Why did it take 350 yrs to make him G-d???? He also prayed to the Father, never as the father?? Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! Hi Sue, Just like the points I made on Jesus the Pharisee on the board, and that is bringing up the Noahide laws. While being bound to the seven, there is nothing that says a Noahide can't take on other mitzvot. Granted there are a few they are not allowed to take on like a fully observant Shabbos, but they can observe the Sabbath as long as they do a small act to not follow it completely such as striking a match. Christianity today can thank it's present form to its death grip on the Roman/Greco/Pagan influences of the church. regards,Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: Re: [Dialogue] Hello! Date: 4/3/2009 1:55:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: gets52000 at yahoo.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/9ec37214/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Apr 4 10:55:45 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:55:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! In-Reply-To: <005301c9b54b$66300ed0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <264518612-1238716182-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-935498339-@bxe1044.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><002101c9b491$539dfc10$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <033301c9b483$5c265020$1472f060$@com> <005301c9b54b$66300ed0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <045e01c9b53d$d2f31bb0$78d95310$@com> Dick, I never said or implied such a thing. Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! Are U saying that Israel is not G-d's chosen anymore because they were supposed to do something????? They have found it very diffficult to do so in the past, but are begining to now. They are accepting those that believe in the one 'G-d of Israel, or none of us would be talking to the Rabbi's now. I guess my point is---When it reads in the Torah, "speak unto the chrildren of Israel" , Hashem is speaking only to his chosen. When it reads , "To all flesh" it means all mankind, or both Jew & Gentile. > Hi Dick, > > I think if you look at the "bigger picture", Israel was supposed to become a > Holy nation of priests that were to teach Torah to the rest of the nations. > This didn't happen, but "the dogs eat from their master's table and are > filled". How true this statement is today. > > Patty > > > > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L > > When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so > many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are > Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what > G-d has giving them. > We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or > the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then > become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L > > > Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in > the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage > disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine > flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! > Paul > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: kim alvarado > > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 > To: > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 11:53:44 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 02:53:44 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Nine, Eleven and Ten. Message-ID: <49D79098.9020701@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/e54dc49b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/e54dc49b/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 4632 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/e54dc49b/attachment.jpe From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 13:03:54 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 04:03:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] EXODUS FROM EXILE. Message-ID: <49D7A10A.8030700@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/509d317b/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 14:21:36 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 05:21:36 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] EXILE AS A UNIVERSAL THEME. Message-ID: <49D7B340.5050004@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/e11f1d05/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 4 17:02:40 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 08:02:40 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Tuesday Night Live in Jerusalem #32: Time to Build the Temple - A7 Exclusive Features - Israel News - Israel National News Message-ID: <49D7D900.5000309@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/c196f24e/attachment.html From Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sat Apr 4 19:26:43 2009 From: Hezakiah4 at aol.com (Hezakiah4 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:26:43 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Message-ID: Hello Patty, In reference to your comment: The Israelites/Judahites were punished for worshipping Baal, the Queen of Heaven, etc. Do your homework Ah,so after Israel repented from this and returned to the land to build the second Temple in around 19 BCE ,we were still worshipping Baal, only this time in the Holy Temple? That is why Rome destroyed the Temple and put us into this exile? So since we Jews worship the same G-d today as the one we worshipped in the Temple then,we are worshipping Baal today,right? I'm so glad you cleared that up for me. That explains why we were cast out of the land by heathens and spent near 2000 years being butchered by the church.And all this time I thought I was worshipping Hashem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 6:35:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: The Israelites/Judahites were punished for worshipping Baal, the Queen of Heaven, etc. Do your homework. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Ok,so Hashem punished us by throwing us out of the land so we could be forced by pain of death to worship the god of Christianity and be murdered for not doing so and driven from everywhere we settled because we worshipped Hashem and not Jesus. Yeah,that makes sence. Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 4:57:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: _ptyler at aac-usa.com_ (mailto:ptyler at aac-usa.com) To: _dialogue at rootsoffaith.org_ (mailto:dialogue at rootsoffaith.org) Sent on: Deut.30 [16] In that I command thee this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and YHWH your Elohim shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17] But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; [18] I denounce unto you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days upon the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: [20] That you may love YHWH your Elohim, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which YHWH swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. I think it is rather obvious here, since Israel and Judah were in fact driven from the land, that they (we) chose poorly. Shabbat Shalom, Patty _______________________________________________ ____________________________________ Worried about job security? _Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession_ (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) . _______________________________________________ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/438b45df/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Apr 4 20:37:07 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:37:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04b901c9b58f$0a03ecf0$1e0bc6d0$@com> Hi Hez, I hope you had a restful Shabbat. Was the Kavod/Shekinah in the second Temple? If no, why not? If yes - how could it be destroyed? I beg you to please drop the hateful sarcasm, it really had no place in these discussions. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 8:27 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Hello Patty, In reference to your comment: The Israelites/Judahites were punished for worshipping Baal, the Queen of Heaven, etc. Do your homework Ah,so after Israel repented from this and returned to the land to build the second Temple in around 19 BCE ,we were still worshipping Baal, only this time in the Holy Temple? That is why Rome destroyed the Temple and put us into this exile? So since we Jews worship the same G-d today as the one we worshipped in the Temple then,we are worshipping Baal today,right? I'm so glad you cleared that up for me. That explains why we were cast out of the land by heathens and spent near 2000 years being butchered by the church.And all this time I thought I was worshipping Hashem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 6:35:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: The Israelites/Judahites were punished for worshipping Baal, the Queen of Heaven, etc. Do your homework. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hezakiah4 at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 5:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Ok,so Hashem punished us by throwing us out of the land so we could be forced by pain of death to worship the god of Christianity and be murdered for not doing so and driven from everywhere we settled because we worshipped Hashem and not Jesus. Yeah,that makes sence. Hez ========Original Message======== Subj: [Dialogue] The Blessing and the Curse Date: 4/3/2009 4:57:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: ptyler at aac-usa.com To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: Deut.30 [16] In that I command thee this day to love YHWH your Elohim, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and YHWH your Elohim shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17] But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; [18] I denounce unto you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days upon the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live: [20] That you may love YHWH your Elohim, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may cleave unto him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which YHWH swore unto your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. I think it is rather obvious here, since Israel and Judah were in fact driven from the land, that they (we) chose poorly. Shabbat Shalom, Patty _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/d0ed5b8d/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Apr 4 20:46:22 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:46:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Do the Math In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04be01c9b590$54dbaa50$fe92fef0$@com> Hi Hez, It appears that you did not understand today's Torah/Haftorah reading, I would like to present it as a simple mathematical equation: I = Israel O = Observe Torah R = Reject Torah L = Live in the Land D = Driven from the Land. The Tanak says that if (I)Israel (O)Observes Torah they will (L)Live in the Land. The Tanak says that if (I)Israel rejects Torah they will be (D)driven from the Land. If I + O + L Then I + R = ? What part don't you get Hez? I am starting to think that maybe you love contention for the sake of contention (?) Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/af279658/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sat Apr 4 21:00:14 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:00:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Do the Math In-Reply-To: <04be01c9b590$54dbaa50$fe92fef0$@com> References: <04be01c9b590$54dbaa50$fe92fef0$@com> Message-ID: <04d701c9b592$44a22720$cde67560$@com> I meant to say : If I + O = L Then I + R = ? Sorry! Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:46 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Do the Math Hi Hez, It appears that you did not understand today's Torah/Haftorah reading, I would like to present it as a simple mathematical equation: I = Israel O = Observe Torah R = Reject Torah L = Live in the Land D = Driven from the Land. The Tanak says that if (I)Israel (O)Observes Torah they will (L)Live in the Land. The Tanak says that if (I)Israel rejects Torah they will be (D)driven from the Land. If I + O + L Then I + R = ? What part don't you get Hez? I am starting to think that maybe you love contention for the sake of contention (?) Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/be34145f/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 22:45:13 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:45:13 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Do the Math In-Reply-To: <04d701c9b592$44a22720$cde67560$@com> References: <04be01c9b590$54dbaa50$fe92fef0$@com> <04d701c9b592$44a22720$cde67560$@com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904042045l4ecbc1bex5bc3a03e292803cb@mail.gmail.com> Hey, Did you guys (Hez & Patty) take the time to read Joe's post (Shavua Tov)? Kim On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Patty wrote: > I meant to say : > > > > If I + O* =* L > > Then I + R = ? > > > > Sorry! > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patty > *Sent:* Saturday, April 04, 2009 9:46 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Do the Math > > > > Hi Hez, > > > > It appears that you did not understand today?s Torah/Haftorah reading, I > would like to present it as a simple mathematical equation: > > > > I = Israel > > O = Observe Torah > > R = Reject Torah > > L = Live in the Land > > D = Driven from the Land. > > > > The Tanak says that if (I)Israel (O)Observes Torah they will (L)Live in the > Land. > > The Tanak says that if (I)Israel rejects Torah they will be (D)driven from > the Land. > > > > If I + O + L > > Then I + R = ? > > > > What part don?t you get Hez? I am starting to think that maybe you love > contention for the sake of contention (?) > > > > Patty > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/30984fce/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Sat Apr 4 22:53:12 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:53:12 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Passover tzedakah here Message-ID: <200904050353.n353rEtx032292@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> Dear Friends, Giving righteously/ tzedakah is one of the pillars of Biblical faith. This time before Passover is a good time to practice this action as returnees to Biblical faith, to brotherhood with Yehudah, and to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are many place in dire need that we can use our gifts from this land of Joseph. Am sure there will be more appearing on this list. This is one of the places. Please give generously. Steve PS. There were some pictures that go with this email. They can be seen if you click below. If you can not see this email properly, please click here You are receiving this email from Manhigut Yehudit -- The Jewish Leadership Movement -- because you have been subscribed to our weekly email newsletter. The Passover Holiday is Coming Please Support Needy Families In Israel Click here to donate now! This is an EMERGENCY APPEAL. All money - 100% - will be given directly to needy families. No commissions will be taken. No salaries. No administrative costs. No expenses. Every dollar and shekel will be given to help the Jews in Israel for the Passover holiday. Click here to donate on-line via our secure server donation form All donations are 100% tax deductible in the USA. Receipts will be mailed. If you prefer to send a check, see information below. Unemployment in Israel highest in 3 years! Many families in Israel remain well BELOW the poverty line. Providing matzah, wine, fish, chicken, dairy products and other necessities for the Passover holiday is virtually impossible. Manhigut Yehudit appeals to you to donate to help Israel's needy. Dear Friends, [] Unemployment in Israel has reached its highest in 3 years. Many families still remain well BELOW the poverty line. Providing matzah, wine, chicken, dairy products, and other necessities for the Passover holiday is virtually impossible. Manhigut Yehudit, The Jewish Leadership Movement, has again taken upon itself to raise money for the residents of Yehudah and Shomron (Judea and Samaria). [] This is an EMERGENCY APPEAL and all money - 100% - will be given DIRECTLY to needy families. No commissions will be taken. No salaries. No administrative costs. No expenses. EVERY dollar and shekel will be given to help the Jews of Judea and Samaria for Pesach. Since Passover is around the corner (April 8), please click here and donate via our secure server. As soon as the donation is made, Moshe Feiglin will PERSONALLY deliver the money. Click here to donate online via our secure server donation form. [] All donations are 100% tax deductible in the USA. Receipts will be mailed immeaditly after Pesach. We realize that - financially - things are tough all over the world and emails like this one will flood your "inbox" in the coming days. Nevertheless, we still must figure out a way to help our brothers and sisters in Israel. The poverty is simply incredible and our eyes fill with tears when we think of the situation. Please help as best as you can, and please respond QUICKLY! With love of Israel, Moshe Feiglin and Shmuel Sackett Manhigut Yehudit - The Jewish Leadership Movement. Click here to donate on-line via our secure server donation form Should you desire to mail a check, please do so IMMEDIATELY so that we can deliver the funds BEFORE the holiday. Please attach a note or "memo" the check "PASSOVER" for the Passover emergency fund. Checks should be made payable to: U.S.A. Manhigut Yehudit POB 241 Cedarhurst, NY 11516 USA Israel Manhigut Yehudit PO Box 21 Ginot Shomron, 44853 For more information email: shmuel at jewishisrael.org or call: 516-620-5475 (USA) 09-774-0937 (Israel) Forward this email to a Friend -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/340bc65c/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Apr 4 23:51:08 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 04:51:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Passover tzedakah here In-Reply-To: <200904050353.n353rEtx032292@mail385c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <040520090451.15231.49D838BB000CFFA500003B7F22230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein Steve, There are several groups we can support that Hanoch made us aware of, this is my choice; http://webmail.att.net/wmc/en-US/n/wm/5207182130385832?cmd=Show&sid=c0&folder=INBOX&advnum=121&advtot=121&uid=4402796&popup=yes&js=yes But y'all find whatever need that speaks to you, there are needs everywhere while we argue about who has been the most oppressed. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Steve Mathe : -------------- Dear Friends, Giving righteously/ tzedakah is one of the pillars of Biblical faith. This time before Passover is a good time to practice this action as returnees to Biblical faith, to brotherhood with Yehudah, and to the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are many place in dire need that we can use our gifts from this land of Joseph. Am sure there will be more appearing on this list. This is one of the places. Please give generously. Steve PS. There were some pictures that go with this email. They can be seen if you click below. If you can not see this email properly, please click here You are receiving this email from Manhigut Yehudit -- The Jewish Leadership Movement -- because you have been subscribed to our weekly email newsletter. The Passover Holiday is Coming Please Support Needy Families In Israel Click here to donate now! This is an EMERGENCY APPEAL. All money - 100% - will be given directly to needy families. No commissions will be taken. No salaries. No administrative costs. No expenses. Every dollar and shekel will be given to help the Jews in Israel for the Passover holiday. Click here to donate on-line via our secure server donation form All donations are 100% tax deductible in the USA. Receipts will be mailed. If you prefer to send a check, see information below. Unemployment in Israel highest in 3 years! Many families in Israel remain well BELOW the poverty line. Providing matzah, wine, fish, chicken, dairy products and other necessities for the Passover holiday is virtually impossible. Manhigut Yehudit appeals to you to donate to help Israel's needy. Dear Friends, Unemployment in Israel has reached its highest in 3 years. Many families still remain well BELOW the poverty line. Providing matzah, wine, chicken, dairy products, and other necessities for the Passover holiday is virtually impossible. Manhigut Yehudit, The Jewish Leadership Movement, has again taken upon itself to raise money for the residents of Yehudah and Shomron (Judea and Samaria). This is an EMERGENCY APPEAL and all money - 100% - will be given DIRECTLY to needy families. No commissions will be taken. No salaries. No administrative costs. No expenses. EVERY dollar and shekel will be given to help the Jews of Judea and Samaria for Pesach. Since Passover is around the corner (April 8), please click here and donate via our secure server. As soon as the donation is made, Moshe Feiglin will PERSONALLY deliver the money. Click here to donate online via our secure server donation form. All donations are 100% tax deductible in the USA. Receipts will be mailed immeaditly after Pesach. We realize that - financially - things are tough all over the world and emails like this one will flood your "inbox" in the coming days. Nevertheless, we still must figure out a way to help our brothers and sisters in Israel. The poverty is simply incredible and our eyes fill with tears when we think of the situation. Please help as best as you can, and please respond QUICKLY! With love of Israel, Moshe Feiglin and Shmuel Sackett Manhigut Yehudit - The Jewish Leadership Movement. Click here to donate on-line via our secure server donation form Should you desire to mail a check, please do so IMMEDIATELY so that we can deliver the funds BEFORE the holiday. Please attach a note or "memo" the check "PASSOVER" for the Passover emergency fund. Checks should be made payable to: U.S.A. Manhigut Yehudit POB 241 Cedarhurst, NY 11516 USA Israel Manhigut Yehudit PO Box 21 Ginot Shomron, 44853 For more information email: shmuel at jewishisrael.org or call: 516-620-5475 (USA) 09-774-0937 (Israel) Forward this email to a Friend -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/b1646112/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 23:52:39 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] For Pesah Message-ID: <855590370904042152r1b20df5kbb4a66ecb4d84777@mail.gmail.com> This is wonderful clip from the Prince of Egypt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GbI2Tlt55w * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/ae24ac29/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Apr 4 23:57:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 21:57:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Bat Ayin: They are Our Children Message-ID: <855590370904042157g6f247f5fyfba09eb50a363e32@mail.gmail.com> Bat Ayin: They are Our Children Nisan 9, 5769, 03 April 09 12:19 by by Paula R. Stern (IsraelNN.com) The thing about living in a relatively small town or village is that after a while, you pretty much know everyone. For the good and for the bad. For more than two years now, Elie has been in the army. The army, at least artillery, works in units - small units, which are grouped together under a single commander. That unit is grouped with several others, each having their own commander. Those commanders report to another officer. Several of those officers report to a higher level, and on and on. It's the nature of the military, here and around the world. Bat Ayin is a tiny little village of slightly over 1,000 people. Thursday morning, an Arab terrorist entered the small village and attacked two boys with an axe . There was chaos in the news reports. Some said one boy was 16 and one 7; another said the older child was only 13. By all accounts, the older boy died this morning. One message said the seven-year-old has died; someone else sent me a message asking for prayers for a boy who is seriously wounded. By all accounts, the terrorist succeeded in escaping. In the first group that Elie was given to command, there is a soldier from Bat Ayin. What are the chances that Elie's soldier doesn't know these families, these children? The answer is likely very small. I tried to call Elie, but he doesn't answer. What would I tell him anyway? By now, I'm sure the boy knows and has hopefully spoken to his family. This is the second time I have had to call him about bad news. The last time was after he'd been in the army about six months and a good friend of his was seriously injured in a terrible car accident. The army was amazing when this happened. Elie was told to go off duty, rest and find out what was happening. Friends from all over the country called him, each trying to find out if the other knew something more. It is a frantic attempt to get whatever knowledge is possible, as fast as possible. It does not change the outcome, but it makes you feel like you are at least doing something. A seven-year-old boy was fighting for his life today. Seven year olds shouldn't have to fight for their lives. It is, seemingly, a never-ending reality we live with here. And as I tried to continue with my day and catch glimpses of the news reports, another thought came into my mind: What kind of man sneaks into a village and attacks a child with an axe? What sickness is there in his mind and soul that allows him to think this is the right thing to do? And what kind of a sick nation would such people build if they were ever given the chance to actually build a country - if to them murdering children is holy, if fighting a 13-year-old is sacred, if it is honorable to leave a seven-year-old fighting for his life? May God send comfort to the family of the child murdered today and may He avenge his blood. May God protect the wounded boy and all our children, our sons and our daughters. And may Elie find a way to comfort his soldier, who will go home in just a few days to a village in mourning. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/fdafb4ac/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:02:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:02:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Quote for today Message-ID: <855590370904042202j3eecbeabief6d9097dcb893c4@mail.gmail.com> A quote to think about as we prepare for Pesah... *Hanoch* *?In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential; through our children we reveal our reality."* *- Lawrence Kelemen* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/dc62d96d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:07:55 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:07:55 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Let the truth hang out" Message-ID: <855590370904042207h56123dccj3bf1745eca509556@mail.gmail.com> ** * Let the truth hang out by David Wilder The Jewish Community of Hebron April 2, 2009 After Avigdor Lieberman?s introductory statement yesterday as Israel?s new foreign minister I started thinking about writing this article. This morning, seeing one of the headlines in the Jerusalem Post, that thought was reinforced. However, after the brutal murder of a 16 year old at Bat Ayin, the thought transformed into words on paper. You may not have picked up Lieberman?s remarks yesterday, being that most of the major internet news networks didn?t mention the fact that Bibi Netanyahu was sworn in as Israel?s new Prime Minister. I watched CNN, MSNBC and Foxnews all day. The event was totally ignored. What did Lieberman say? That Israel is not obligated by any agreements enumerated in the Annapolis Accords, because they had never been voted on in the Israeli cabinet. He did say that Israel was obligated by Bush?s ?roadmap,? but one would imagine that he also believes that the Arabs must also keep their part of the agreement before Israel makes any further concessions. That doesn?t look too promising. What about the headline in the Jpost: PA: Death to those who sell land to Jews. Khaled Abu Toameh writes, ?The Palestinian Authority has issued yet another warning to Palestinians against selling their homes or properties to Jews, saying those who violate the order would be accused of "high treason" - a charge that carries the death penalty. The latest warning was issued on Wednesday by the Chief [Islamic] Judge of the Palestinian Authority, Sheikh Tayseer Rajab Tamimi, who reminded the Palestinians of an existing fatwa [religious decree] than bans them from selling property to Jews.? [ http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562884554&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull ] This is nothing new. I?ve been repeating this to tourists and journalists for years. (The latter very rarely believe me.) This became an issue following Hebron?s purchase of Beit HaShalom, when the Arab owner screamed that he?d never really sold the property. He had no choice but to make this claim; anything less would have led to his immediate torture and death. His initial statements denying the sale came when he was sitting in an Arab jail in Jericho. However, now we have it again, officially, from the mouth of the ?Chief Rabbi ? Chief Justice? of the Arab terrorist authority, aka, the PA. Can you imagine what would happen if the Israeli chief justice, Dorit Beinish, or one of the Chief Rabbis of Israel would make a similar statement, saying that any Jew selling property to an Arab was to be summarily executed?! The previous government, with Olmert at the reins and Barak in Defense, tried very hard to convince the Israeli public that ?times had changed.? The atmosphere seemed to be more relaxed. Abu Mazen was behaving himself, and Israel needed to do everything to strengthen him against continued attempts by Hamas to take over all of Arab-occupied Judea and Samaria. Unfortunately, these attempts to continue to deceive the Israeli public started to explode in their collective faces. Two police were killed in the Jordan Valley. A terror-tractorist tried to kill cops in Jerusalem. A car-bomber terrorist almost brought down a mall on hundreds of people in Haifa. Here in Hebron we are told that everything is wonderful. Life with the Arabs has become tranquil Real lovey-dovey. So the IDF has notified us that soon the only road leading to Hebron, passing by the western entrance to Kiryat Arba will soon be open to Arab traffic. The last time this happened two Jews were killed on the same day: David Cohen and Hezzy Mualem. Other roadblocks are being opened, ?gestures? to the ?moderate? PA leadership. Gestures that inevitably lead to bloodshed and loss of Jewish life. That brings us to today ? a few hours ago. An Arab terrorist (?militant? in the language of all journalistic channels) with an axe broke into the municipality building in the Bat Ayin community and starting swinging. Two people were struck: Sixteen year old Shlomo Nativ was killed and a seven year old injured. I don?t know the family of the murdered youth, but his sister studied in high school with one of my daughters and his brother is a student in a Yeshiva where one of my son?s-in-law is his Rabbi. It hits close to home. Bay Ayin really is a picture of tranquility. We have friends that lived there for a while and we spent a couple of Shabbats there. Surrounded by the Judean Hills, it?s quiet and picturesque and a lovely place to live. Maybe fifteen minutes south of Gilo, Jerusalem, the population is a mixture of religious Jews who practice their religion with their way of life. So, what do you say to people whose teenage son goes out for a little while and comes back home, dead, a week before Passover? The Jerusalem Post quotes Hamas sources, ?For its part, Hamas called the attack a natural response to the "occupation." "This attack was committed in the framework of the resistance," Ayman Taha, a spokesperson for the group said. "This is a reaction to the continuing occupation and the continued building of settlements. This is a natural reaction," he said, "especially against the backdrop of Israel attacks. We are a people occupied, and it is our right to defend ourselves and to act in every way and with every means at our disposal in order to defend ourselves." So let?s go out and kill some kids. So, as we approach the Passover holiday, with the advent of a ?new government?, let?s start anew. Israel has no obligations to the Americans, the Arabs, the Europeans, or anyone else. Some 3,500 years ago G-d gave birth the Jewish people by taking us out of Egypt and leading us to the Promised Land, to Eretz Yisrael. He created us, He made the rules, and He commanded us to follow those rules. First and foremost, to live in our land. Our first responsibility is to those rules, to freely in our land as a free people. Our government?s first commitment is to its people, to ensure their safety, to ensure their lives in their land. Israeli governments have always been very good at shirking this responsibility. Hebron?s Jewish residents were abandoned to their fate when then Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu gave our Arab neighbors the hills surrounding the Jewish neighborhoods, leading to Arab shooting at Hebron for over two years. A few days ago Hebron marked the eighth anniversary of the murder of 10 month old Shalhevet Pass, shot and killed by a sniper from those very hills. Gush Katif came under Arab mortar fire for years on end, with virtually no attempt to end the attacks by the Israeli government. So, too Sderot, hit by rockets for years and years; despite the Olmert-Livni-Barak supposed attempt to put an end to these attacks, they continue. Need more be said? The question is what will Bibi do now ? ten years later? Bibi has always said the ?right? thing, but done the wrong thing. Will he change his ways and start acting as a proud Jewish leader should? Prior to the elections he espoused the ?right? thing ? opposition to a ?two-state solution.? Any normal human being with eyes in his head and a semi-working brain understands that a ?palestinian state? can only be catastrophic. Lieberman?s comments yesterday were greeted with consternation by staff of the Israeli foreign ministry. Lieberman?s first job should be to find those who expressed dismay at his statements and fire them. It?s time that Israeli policy changed, and there is no need to hide the truth behind locked doors. The Israeli government must encourage land purchases such as Beit HaShalom in Hebron, working to further such deals rather than trying to squelch them. And last, but certainly not least, this administration must act quickly and decisively following today?s brutal murder of a sixteen year old at Bat Ayin. The response to such attacks must be immediate and equally brutal. The first reaction to the Hamas statement must be an unequivocal decision refusing to release Hamas murderers from prison in exchange for Gilad Shalt, killers who will surely return to their old ways once released from Israeli custody. Other measure, which need not be enumerated here, must be implemented, letting all know, Israeli lives cannot be, and will not be, trampled on. Our children, our women, our families, our citizens, are not cattle fodder, and any and all attempts to harm us will be answered appropriately. Let the truth hang out! * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/431f7e62/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:12:55 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:12:55 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Fanning the flame of Zionism" Message-ID: <855590370904042212m586456d8hb74efd8e4b062c67@mail.gmail.com> Part of the work ahead of us... * Hanoch* Fanning the Flame of Zionism Nisan 8, 5769, 02 April 09 11:34 by by Dan Illouz (IsraelNN.com) The *Imrei Emet* (Rabbi Avraham Mordechai Alter), the third Rebbe of the Chassidic dynasty of Gur, was at once friendly to and critical of the Zionist movement. He was known to have good relations with Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak HaCohen Kook. One day, an emissary from the Zionist movement came to court the Rebbe's support. The *Imrei Emet* told him: *I have no doubt that the Zionists are motivated by *mitzvot*, even if they consider themselves to be irreligious. Otherwise, why should they strive and fight for a poor, backward, malaria-ridden country like Palestine? The logical aim of secular Jews should be to go to places like the United States, or Canada or Argentina. By choosing the Land of Israel, they depart from secular ideology and cling to an irrational demand of their soul, the longing for the God-given land. And since they fulfill the obligation to the Land of Israel under harsh circumstances, this one obligation is counted as equal to the rest of the 613 commandments.* Still, he added: *There is nevertheless one shortcoming of secular Zionism. The present generation is unquestionably motivated by *mitzvot* and Jewish in its approach. But its estrangement from individual commandments will diminish its skill and strength in one vital way: the ability to transmit the same spirit to the next generation. * What the *Imrei Emet* had predicted decades ago has painfully become true in our generation. After a few generations of strong idealism, the Zionist movement has become weaker. There are still some Zionist individuals, but the public discourse in Israel has moved from a pro-Zionist discourse to a post-Zionist and anti-Zionist discourse. Zionism was unable to properly transmit itself to the next generation. Here are a few examples: During a necessary military operation in Gaza, hundreds of pro-Palestinian students gathered next to Hebrew University chanting slogans such as "With might and blood we'll redeem you, O Palestine" and "Hamas, go ahead and bomb Sderot". This happening in the university located in our nation's capital. A recognized legal expert was hired by Tel Aviv University to teach international law. There were protests organized by post-Zionist and anti-Zionist elements at Tel Aviv University. What were they protesting? They were unhappy with the fact that someone who served as legal counsel to the IDF would now teach International Law. They accused her of war crimes. A student of sociology in Hebrew University got a special award for a research paper she wrote. In the paper, she argued that the IDF was a racist army. What was her proof? The fact that Israeli soldiers *did not* rape Palestinian women. All those events are examples of an unfortunate trend which has taken over the public and academic discourse in the State of Israel. In a recent study, the Im Tirtzu organization revealed that around eighty percent of the material used in political science faculties around Israel was either post-Zionist or anti-Zionist. Since we know that tomorrow's leadership is being trained in today's universities, this finding is incredibly worrying. It is even more unacceptable when it is clear that the majority of the general population is still very proud of its Zionist heritage. The majority of former IDF soldiers are very proud of their military service. The university's public discourse therefore does not even reflect the will of the majority. So what caused this change in the public discourse? As the *Imrei Emet*explained, Zionism was unable to transmit itself on its own. Still, with all the bad news, there is also some light at the end of the tunnel. The answer to the problem of post-Zionism is very simple. If Zionism is not able to transmit itself, and we want Zionism to overcome the challenges of post-Zionism and anti-Zionism, then we need to educate a new generation of Zionist idealists. Every time a protest is organized against the holy Israeli soldiers defending their land and lives, we need to organize a protest in support of those very soldiers. Every time a professor lectures from a perspective which is biased in favour of the post-Zionist or anti-Zionist point of view, we need to ensure he is held accountable and that the entire student body knows of the intentions of this educator. We also need to make sure that Zionist professors are not intimidated by the academic climate and feel free to lecture the way they wish. It is only through a continued expression of our Zionist values that we will be able to combat and overcome the post-Zionist and anti-Zionist forces present in Israeli society. Through this expression we will be able to ensure the continued development of the State of Israel as a more just, more modern, more democratic and more Jewish state. As the *Imrei Emet* said, Zionism cannot survive on its own eternally. We cannot count on its self-preservation. For it to survive, to keep the fire burning, we need to keep continuously feeding the flame of Zionism. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/02fc810e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:19:15 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:19:15 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Those four sons... Message-ID: <855590370904042219l5afb929cvd3a6bf0383536f8c@mail.gmail.com> Blog Hollywood to the Holy Land Tzvi Fischman Nisan 7, 5769, 4/1/2009 The Four Sons Let?s apply the famous Four Sons of the Pesach Seder to the mitzvah of living in the Land of Israel. Here?s what is written in the Haggadah: ?The Torah speaks of four children: One is wise, one is wicked, one is simple, and one does not know how to ask. The wise child, what does he say? ?What are the symbols, rules, and laws that the L-rd our G-d commanded you?? Then you shall tell him the laws of Pesach up to: we do not taste anything after the Afikoman.? When the wise Jew looks at modern history and sees that G-d has brought about World Wars and international treaties to bring His scattered children back to the Land of Israel after an exile of nearly 2000 years, and sees the incredible rebirth of the previously barren Land, and the miracle of rebuilding, technological development, military might, and sees how Israel has become once again the center of Torah learning for the Jewish People, he seeks to understand what is taking place and how he can place his life in line with G-d?s will for the Nation. Faced with the clear realizations of ancient prophecies promising the ingathering of the outcasts and the resettlement of the Land, and the tangible rebuilding that everyone who visits the country can see, he understands that it is G-d?s unfolding game-plan that Jews abandon the Diaspora and come on aliyah. So he seeks to learn how he can best perform the mitzvah. He does this by asking the Sages in Israel who can explain these matters to him, by reading the writings of Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak HaCohen Kook, by studying books like ?The Kuzari,? ?Am HaBanim Semicha,? the writings of Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook , and by listening to Torah lectures on websites like Yeshivat Beit El and Machon Meir. Part of his wisdom is his humility. In realizing that he does not have all the answers, he seeks explanations from people who do. He longs to be a part of the great national Jewish undertaking that he sees unfolding before his eyes in Israel, and he longs to join with those who are working with G-d to bring about the promised Redemption by coming to live in the Land. *Passover Seder* The Haggadah continues: ?The wicked child, what does he say? ?What is this service to YOU?? To YOU, but not to me! Because he removes himself from the community, he denies everything. Thus, you should also give him a blunt answer [literally: smash him in the teeth] and say, ?Because of this, G-d did things for me ? but not for YOU! If you had been there, you would not have been saved.?? These wicked children are the scorners, the talkbackers who always find things wrong with Israel. This wicked child removes himself from the wondrous ingathering that G-d is bringing about because it is not to his liking. It doesn?t match his way of doing things. He doesn?t agree with G-d. He would do things better. In the meantime, he?s staying put in Vienna, England, Cyberspace, and Japan. Once again, we are not talking about Jews who can't come on aliyah because of pressing financial, health, or psychiatric problems, but about those who could but don't and discourage others from coming as well. Regarding this child, the ?Me?am Lo?ez? commentary on the Haggadah writes: ?By excluding himself from the observance, this child is considered to have denied the essence of Judaism. You must therefore give him a blunt answer as to set his teeth on edge. He is not allowed to taste the Pascal lamb. Let him watch you eat the fragrant, tasty lamb, and sit there grinding his teeth. G-d did this for me ? for me and not for YOU. If you had been in Egypt, you would not have been delivered. A wicked person like you, who does not believe in the commandment of the holy Torah, would certainly have died during the three days of darkness. During those days, many people like you died. G-d does not perform miracles for people like you.? The Haggadah continues: ?The simple child, what does he say? ?What is this?? You shall say to him, ?With a strong hand, G-d took us out of Egypt, from the house of slaves.?? The simple child has good intentions. He sees that G-d is indeed bringing the Jewish People back to the Land of Israel from the four corners of the globe. He is interested to know more about it. He hasn?t learned these things in the past, and he isn?t accustomed to Torah learning, so you answer him by telling him the full historical story, from our beginnings as a People, how G-d gave us the Land of Israel, and how we lost it due to our sins, how we suffered in the exile at the hands of the gentiles, and how G-d is bringing us back now, through the developments of modern history and the establishment of the State of Israel. The Haggadah goes on: ?And as for the one who does not know how to ask, you must begin for him, as it is written, ?You shall tell your child on that day, Because of this, G-d did things for me when I left Egypt.?? This child is so out of things that he knows absolutely nothing. He never learned. No one ever taught him. To him, Israel is no different from New Zealand or Thailand. To stimulate his imagination, you have to tell him about the miracles of the Exodus, how G-d overturned all of the laws of nature to bring the Jewish people out of Egypt to the Land of Israel. Once he is interested, you can encourage this child to learn more about his Jewish identity and his G-d given destiny. And then, as the holy Rebbe of Chabad explained, there is the fifth child, who doesn?t show up at the Seder at all. He?s either stoned out of his mind in some disco in Bangkok, or busy hiding Easter eggs for his gentile children to find after the parade. *Easter Bunny* May Hashem have mercy on us and redeem us from all of our screwed up notions, both here in Israel and abroad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/a08723e7/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:19:38 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 01:19:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. In-Reply-To: <49D74616.2080105@westnet.com.au> References: <49D74616.2080105@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Joe, this is a wonderful piece. Thank you so much. You have written with both love and truth. I really can't tell you how much I appreciate what you have said here. Shavua Tov, Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 7:35 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. Shavua Tov Chaverim, I have had a restful and blessed Shabbat, something that I am sure that some of you did not have the pleasure to enjoy based on some of the posts that were shared just prior to the Shabbat in your neck of the woods. My response will be very general and to the point. If I offend anyone my apologies in advance. It is not meant to be personal but there are certain things that must be said. Both temples were destroyed for "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred amongst the Jews. The first temple was destroyed for the breaking of the law of shmitah or the sabbatical release of slaves and the rest of the land. The second temple was destroyed because of factionalism and sectarian bloodletting. It MUST BE STRESSED that Beit Yehudah remained loyal to Torah despite its consistant backsliding. Idolatry on the other hand was in the realm of Beit Yisrael or the Northern Kingdom. The expert artist was Efrayim. Beit Yisrael was dispersed after it went into Exile. Did Israel fail in its mission to teach Torah to the nations ? If I may I would like to add a little more juice to this concept. Ya'cov had two legs, Beit Yisrael and Beit Yehudah. He limped away from Penuel after the famous wrestle. Has Yisrael stumbled so as to fall ? No, may it never be ! So Yisrael stumbled, but never fell. When did Yisrael stumble ? Which thigh was put out of joint ? Please read 1Kings 12 v a5 - 33. Notice : Yeravam ( Jeroboam ) went to live at Shechem in the hill country of Efrayim. Yervam rebuilt Penuel. Yervam re instituted the golden calf worship Yeravam feared the union of the two houses. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit priesthood not according to the Levitical order. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit religious order. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit temple. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit festival of Succot in the 8th month. Yeravam presumptuously became the high priest by burning incense. Now I will ask those questions again. Beit Yisrael was put out of joint. Beit Yehudah kept Ya'cov upright without falling. Yes it is true that many Christians died at the hands of other Christians. Protestants at the hands of Catholics and vice versa. No matter how hard you try and analyze this historical fact you come to the same conclusion ; many died in the cause of a lie. Jews on the other hand died for the truth!!!! Am I passionate about this ? You bet I am. The living memory of the Holocaust is still in our midst and yet the denial is already in motion. Hez, I apologize to you personally, because you had family that went up in smoke on the altars of arrogant racial supremecy and gentile indifference. So much for history. The pivotal point of this argument commences now. Let us forget the Nazi horrors of WW2 and the miraculous birth of a nation of Israel in one day for just a while. Let us say that the modern nation of Israel did not exist. How many of you would be eating pork rolls and bacon fritters ? How many of you would be wearing your best dress to church on Sunday? How many of you would be munching on Easter eggs at the Easter parade? How many of you would be putting up your decorations on the Xmas tree whilst singing carols? Now, how many of you would be doing all the above despite having a Bible that clearly states : to keep kosher dietary laws. to keep the Shabbat. to keep the Chagim. to keep family purity laws. Come on,Be honest. The formation of the Jewish state of Israel and its survival during severe wars was a sovereign act of HaShem. It served as a Divine witness to the nations that HaShem's Word is true and steadfast. The fact is that the Bible always had the Tanach attached. So where did all these new understandings and teachings come from....... from the JEWS !!!! Come on all you fine folk that will be sitting down for a Pesach Seder, who make Succahs for Succot, who light the candles for Chanukah, who observe and rest on Shabbat ,who recite the Shema perfectly, who follow the ONE G-D, ,............. who taught you these things ? Who taught you the Rosh Chodesh , which is crucial in the determining of the Holy calender? Without the Jewish people we would of had no chance in a wide world. My Jewish brothers and sisters, thank you very much for sanctifying HaShem's Holy Name even under the pain of death. I thank your ancestors from the bottom of my heart in that they kept themselves separate unto HaShem . Without out them and you , the light of HaShem's Revelation would have been lost to the world. The only Chillul HaShem or desecration of the Holy Name was that you were out of the land. Baruch HaShem, HE has brought you back home as a personal witness to the nations of His omnipotence. I would not be here writing this essay and all the other information that I have shared with you , had it not been for the resistance and the tenacity of the Jewish people. Respect to where it belongs. A story relates that Napoleon Bonaparte once entered a synagogue on Tish B'Av, the solemn fast day each year that marks the anniversary of the destruction of the Holy Temple. Seeing the Jewish worshippers seated on the floor and crying, he asked what terrible disaster had befallen them. "The Jews are in mourning for their temple, Your Excellency." He asked" What Temple? When did this event occur?" Upon learning that the Jews were grieving over the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem more than 1700 years earlier, the Emperor remarked; "Such a people as this will never be destroyed! If they still remember to mourn for their temple of so long ago, they will surely see it rebuilt." On ending this response, I would like to give HaShem the last say straight out of the Tanach. To him or her that has an ear let him or her listen to what the Spirit is saying. ?? ?????????? ???-???????? ??????, ??????? ????? ???????????, ???????????, ?????????????? ???????; ???????? ???-???????, ???????? ??????????. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle-trees, and said: 'We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.' ?? ???????? ????????-??????, ?????????, ?????? ????????, ???-????? ?????? ???-??????? ???-???????????? ????? ????? ????????--?????? ??????????, ??? ????????? ??????. 12 Then the angel of the LORD spoke and said: 'O LORD of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have compassion on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which Thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? ?? ???????? ??????, ???-??????????? ???????? ????--????????? ???????: ?????????, ????????. 13 And the LORD answered the angel that spoke with me with good words, even comforting words-- ?? ????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????: ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? ????????. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. ?? ????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. ?? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????. {?} 17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.' Zech 1 : 11-17. I want to shout and proclaim this to the entire universe !!!!!! >:o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSrB8tatXk Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/0d1dc734/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:30:00 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:30:00 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Enough of OUR funerals.... Message-ID: <855590370904042230vf863499ofeb3bd7036447aa@mail.gmail.com> ....time for *theirs!!* *Hanoch* Published: 04/03/09, 1:16 AM Photo Essay: Funeral for a Young Jewish Terror Victim by Baruch Gordon (IsraelNN.com) Thousands of family, friends, and Israeli citizens wishing to express solidarity attended the funeral of Shlomo Nativ on Thursday. Shlomo, a Jewish youth from Bat Ayin, located south of Jerusalem, was murdered by an Arab terrorist Thursday morning . *Thousands fill the Gush Etziyon cemetery located in Kfar Etziyon for the funeral of Shlomo Nativ* *All eyes at the funeral are focused on the open grave of terror victim 16-year-old Shlomo Nativ and the family he leaves behind. * *Crying broke the silence of the otherwise serene, green landscape and forests of the Gush Etziyon regional cemetery in the Judean Hills.* *The bereaved father, standing in the middle of the picture with black hat and back to camera, looks upon as others shovel dirt into the open grave of his murdered son.* ** *Twelve hours after the murder, a pile of rocks marks the spot, next to a ping pong table, where Shlomo was butchered by an Arab wielding a hatchet* *The funeral announcement reads: "Blessed is He who judges with truth. The Gush Etziyon Regional Council and its residents join in the mourning of the Nativ family and the town of Bat Ayin over the murder of the youth Shlomo Nativ, May the Lord avenge his blood. The funeral will depart today at 5:00 p.m. from the Nativ family's home in Bat Ayin for the cemetery in Kfar Etziyon."* *From one door to the next, Bat Ayin mourns and Bat Ayin rejoices: a decorated car of a newly-wed couple parked across the street from the Nativ home. The couple got married the night before the murder. One of Shlomo's last acts of kindness was to clean the mobile home of the couple prior to their moving in. The Dean of the Bat Ayin Yeshiva, Rabbi Natan Greenberg, told the newly-wed's family after Shlomo's funeral that they must continue in their rejoicing and hold the traditional post-wedding "Sheva Brachot" feast as planned the same evening. He explained that the "Sheva Brachot" celebration adds another brick [to the building of the Jewish People], and a new couple moving is an answer to the terrorist attack.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/c13c5ff1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 00:37:42 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:37:42 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Avoiding Slavery" Message-ID: <855590370904042237o2cb905f7u5360bcd1fef079df@mail.gmail.com> *Avoiding Slavery Rav Lazer Brody* *[image: http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345263cd69e201156fde79ca970b-pi]Image, left: Ramses beating a slave, stone engraving found in Abu Simbel temple in southern Egypt* The minute one loses one's personal sense of worth and a positive self image, he or she becomes a slave. Lack of self-respect, self-deprecation, and ignorance of one's own marvelous qualities and heritage are tickets to the slave train. Shame or embarrassment about one's ethnic or religious background is tantamount to carrying around an iron shackle with a 50-lb. ball and chain. These feelings of inferiority are an invitation to let society dictate how you should live your life. People who feel inferior are weak; it's easy to exploit a person with no backbone. Controlled and exploited people are the most miserable creatures on the face of the earth. For a Jew, one of the most important Passover preparations is learning who we are and why we're celebrating. Modern society often discourages us from learning about our wonderful background, our G-d, and what emuna - the full and simple faith in Him - can do for us in every level of life, be it emotional, intellectual, spiritual, and even physical. Emuna helps you feel good about yourself. As soon as you begin feeling good about yourself, you become free. Every human has an inherent right to freedom; that's the universal message of the Passover holiday. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/b9600a59/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 5 00:54:52 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2009 22:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! In-Reply-To: <006601c9b54c$d56ef350$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <253119.91990.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Dick, ? In response to this: I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews???? ? I know that a lot of people believe this. For most of my life I was taught and believed that the ways of G-d were now different for all mankind let alone a G-d who had different ways for the Jew vs. the Gentile. Now for me what a relief and comfort that the Torah is eternal, one , and for all mankind. ? Susie ? ? ? ? ? --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:43 AM I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews???? ?????? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the?Muslim religion today.? Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, ? I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. ? Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? ? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090404/af063a75/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 06:23:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 04:23:59 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Pesah Contemplation Message-ID: <855590370904050423h2177c9fcub61f5ea32c9db0bb@mail.gmail.com> ToraLife 12 - A Pesah Contemplation By HaRav Ariel Bar Tzadok. Copyright (C) 2009 by Ariel Bar Tzadok. All rights reserved. *"There is a straight path before a person and its end is the paths of death." *Proverbs 14:12 The shortest path between two points may or may not be a straight line; it all depends upon the obstacles along the way. I contemplate our human way of viewing things; how we consider ourselves wise, cautious and preparatory. We all try our best to foresee that which cannot be seen and to prepare for a future unknown. Yet, try as we do to make our futures secure, there are limits to what is possible to accomplish. We simply do not have the ability to plan our futures and to materialize them exactly how we have planned. Life is a long road and only Heaven knows the right course through it. That which is the right course for one may very well be the wrong course for another. One's course through life is highly subjective. The path which one follows is never the exact same path followed by another. Therefore, only with guidance from Heaven will one find one's true path. Without the guidance of Heaven one will walk through life lost and forever searching for that place which only the Soul within can recognize as home. Human foresight at best sees what it can see, yet even the best cannot foresee all the dangerous curves on the road ahead. One never sees the need to slow down before it is too late. One never plans for the inevitable, unknown and unforeseen twists and turns that make each of our lives unique and unpredictable. We cannot foresee, but Heaven already sees. Smart people lecture about their smartness. Wise people share their wisdom, but only those who eyes look up to Heaven can see the road in front of them. For the path we walk cannot be seen with human vision. So we turn our eyes to Heaven and see our reflection cast within the great sky. We see our walk here on Earth by seeing it reflected back to us from the eyes of Heaven. Although we cannot see, Heaven sees for us. When we surrender our vision and our future to Heaven, only then can we see those dangerous curves before we approach them. With our eyes on Heaven we can internally know that which is coming and make proper preparations for, what for others, is yet the unseen future. Yet, for the one with eyes on Heaven, no future is unseen and no dangers can overtake one unannounced. How strange is it that the only way to see ahead is to look away. With eyes on Heaven all is seen and foreseen. Look as one may towards the future, one will always trip up over some unseen thing here in the present, all because one is not paying attention where one is at. The vision from Heaven is not like looking forward with human eyes. No words can describe it. No talk can justify it. The way of Heaven is invisible to the untrained mind, for the way of Heaven is seen and known in the heart. The mind always has a hard time understanding the language and ways of the heart. Torah is the Way of the universe. Only by gazing into the Torah can one penetrate beyond its surface and see the reflection of Heaven therein. Through this reflection one can gaze upon the proper course of one's own life, know it and walk it accordingly. It may not make any sense in the eyes of the blind. Yet, the blind cannot see, especially when they think that they are not blind and can indeed see. Should we follow the blind? Should we become the blind led by the blind? I should say not! So then, gaze into that place where true vision is to be found. Cast off the derision of the blind. Their path is lost to them. They will never see the terrible precipice in time to avoid it. This may be their destiny, but it does not have to be ours. It is time for the blind to see. Close your eyes from this outside world. Gaze into the Torah with the eyes of your heart, not just with the eyes in your head. When your gaze is set properly upon Heaven all worlds and all ways will be shown to you. In time the path will become clear and you will find your way home. This is what we must teach to all lost children. --------------------------------------------------- Shalom, Ariel Bar Tzadok -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/73977046/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 06:34:57 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 04:34:57 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is Israel going to count on? Message-ID: <855590370904050434k23d9588are9580f8dc5dbe41e@mail.gmail.com> But Israel can count on America to stop Iran, right???? Not a chance... * Hanoch* US, Japan, S. Korea, Russia fail to intercept North Korean ballistic rocket launch *DEBKAfile* Special Report April 5, 2009, 8:35 AM (GMT+02:00) [image: North Korean ballistic missile takes off unimpeded] North Korean ballistic missile takes off unimpeded Despite an international outcry, a North Korean long-range rocket lifted off from its coastal Musudan-ri launch pad early Sunday, March 5. Flying over Japan it appears to have splashed down in the Pacific Ocean. Although on high alert to intercept the launch, Tokyo admitted it missed its timeline twice. *DEBKAfile*'s military sources report that Pyongyang's defiance of stern warnings delivered another serious setback to US president Barack Obama in his management of foreign affairs. But most of all, North Korea showed Israel that it was dangerous to rely on Washington and the rest of the international community and their diplomacy to put a stop to Iran's drive for a nuclear weapon. Obama failed earlier to persuade NATO leaders meeting in Strasbourg to send substantial extra forces to fight in Afghanistan ? only 5,000 non-combat trained troops were pledged. France and Germany turned him down flat. The North Korean ballistic launch, which may or may not have boosted a satellite into orbit, expanded the world's stock of nuclear warheads days after Obama's agreement with Russian president Dmitry Medvedev in London to start reducing this arsenal before the end of the year. Tehran is not far behind Pyongyang. Iran and North Korea have worked together for many years on their nuclear programs, a collaboration which the international community never stopped. Indeed, three years ago, Syria was co-opted to the partnership. *DEBKAfile*'s military sources date the onset of the current crisis to Jan. 3, when Iran launched its first satellite Omid into space, boosted by a nuclear-capable ballistic rocket which placed all points on earth within range. Instead of declaring an emergency, US and Israeli officials were at pains to play down Tehran's achievement. Only on March 25, did AMAN military intelligence cief Amos Yadlin admit to the Knesset foreign affairs and defense committee that Tehran now possessed missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads. Given their long collaboration, it should have been obvious that the data and experience gained from Tehran's launch would be flashed to North Korea. Our sources confirmed that North Korean technicians and scientists attended the Iranian liftoff. After Pyongyang announced the dates bracketing its launch, the US deployed warships opposite North Korean shores armed with interceptors; Japan threatened to destroy any missile violating its airspace. Saturday, Russia announced its Far Eastern forces were on the ready and S-300 anti-missile systems in place for shooting the North Korean rocket down. But when it came to the crunch, the US, Japan and Russia were deterred from trying to intercept the North Korean rocket. What did work was Pyongyang's warning that interception would be a casus belli. All that is left for now is to seek tougher sanctions against North Korea at the emergency UN Security Council session called by Japan for later Sunday, April 5 and lots of condemnation. Sanctions in the past have never had any effect on the North Korean dictator Kim Il-Jong. China will anyway not approve extreme measures, in the same way as it has blocked harsh sanctions against Iran. South Korea has placed its forces in a state of readiness but will not act without Washington. Obama's response was an offer to go back to the six-party forum for negotiating North Korea's denuclearization. The new US administration started off by espousing diplomacy for international conflicts, but in Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's debut trip to the Far East she obtained Beijing's consent to work with Washington on the economic crisis, but not on international strategic matters. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/3e57815e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 06:53:25 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 04:53:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Israel's Christian Friends" Message-ID: <855590370904050453w30676cdet2a5aa18b855f515@mail.gmail.com> I just can't help feeling that all of these wonderful things listed below should be/could be, led by "Ephramites" or Bnei Noach. Not a knock against anyone, and what *they *are doing...just a feeling. * Hanoch* Blog Fundamentally Freund * Michael Freund* Nisan 11, 5769, 4/5/2009 Israel's Christian Friends With Diaspora Jewry in demographic decline, Bible-believing Christians may represent the best hope for ensuring that long-term American and Western support for Israel remains strong. Indeed, the list of Christian personalities and organizations working on behalf of Israel in fields ranging from social welfare to public affairs is almost dizzying. This plethora of activities underlines the extent to which evangelical Christians in the US, Europe and elsewhere can be counted on to back the Jewish state across a variety of spheres. As I argue in the column below, it is therefore essential that Israel take additional steps to further strengthen this burgeoning alliance. Rather than focusing solely on the solicitation of Christians' dollars, the country should seek to cement their devotion by more actively reaching out and courting their support, prayers and cooperation. *Israel's Christian Friends* By Michael Freund Tucked away in the southeastern corner of Virginia, the city of Virginia Beach is about the last place one would expect to find a bastion of passionate pro-Israel sentiment. With its seemingly endless miles of sand, waves and sun, the sprawling resort town, known as the proud host of the annual East Coast Surfing Championships, seems more well-suited to fun and games than to waging a war of ideas on behalf of the Jewish state. Yet it is precisely in this most unexpected of locales that one of Israel's staunchest allies and defenders can be found: Rev. Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network, or CBN. On a visit to the network's studios last week, I was moved by the level of heartfelt support for the Jewish state among the staff members. Nearly every one had been to Israel numerous times, and they described in great detail, and with genuine passion, their profound love for the country and its people. Take, for example, CBN president and chief operating officer Michael Little, who has been to Israel 47 times and is already making plans for his next visit. And then there is network CEO Gordon Robertson, who described with great feeling his views on the Jewish roots of Christianity, and how the Bible mandates that one must stand with Israel, come what may. Prior to interviewing me about events in the Middle East for CBN's daily news program, anchorwoman Wendy Griffith did something I never saw a journalist do before. She folded her hands together, bowed her head in prayer and humbly offered a solemn plea: "Bless Your people Israel and keep them safe," she said. Peering from behind a video camera, one of the cameramen in the studio then quoted verses from Isaiah about the return of the Jewish people to Zion. "I pray about this on a daily basis," he said in earnest. Where else can one find such a deeply-rooted love and concern for God's chosen people? Of course, the fact that many US Christians support Israel is nothing new. Much has been written in recent years about the closer ties that have been forged between the two - a fact that has generated no small amount of controversy among certain more liberal sectors of US Jewry. But after my visit to CBN, and based on previous encounters I have had with other pro-Israel evangelical Christians, I am more convinced than ever that the Jewish state needs to undertake a coordinated effort to nurture and broaden this special relationship. The fact of the matter is that Bible-believing Christians, even more so than US Jews, may represent the best hope for ensuring that long-term American support for Israel remains strong. Like it or not, American Jewry is steadily on the decline, as the realities of mounting intermarriage and assimilation continue to devour untold numbers of young Jews, leaving the community's future viability very much in doubt. And as the US Jewish community grows smaller in size, its clout and influence will invariably diminish as well. That leaves the tens of millions of evangelical Christians in the US as the best possible vanguard to man the barricades on behalf of defending Israel in Washington. ACCORDING TO THE Pew Center's 2008 Religious Landscape Survey, 26.3 percent of American adults identify themselves as evangelical Christians, making them the largest religious grouping in the US. And a study conducted by Pew three years ago found overwhelming support for Israel among evangelicals, concluding that "seven-in-ten white evangelicals (69%) believe God gave Israel to the Jewish people, and a solid majority (59%) believes Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy." Naturally, these believers "are much more likely than others to sympathize with Israel in its dispute with the Palestinians," said the report. Indeed, the list of Christian personalities and organizations working on behalf of Israel in fields ranging from social welfare to public affairs is almost dizzying. The Kansas-based Unity Coalition for Israel, for example, has built an enormous network, utilizing hundreds of organizations, to educate the American public about Israel. Pastor John Hagee has turned Christians United for Israel into the largest Christian grassroots movement in the US, with state directors in all 50 states, and an annual Washington summit that brings out thousands of people from across the country to speak out on behalf of the Jewish state. Veteran Christian broadcasters, such as Hal Lindsey, Janet Parshall and Earl Cox, reach tens of millions of viewers and listeners, explaining Israel's case and defending her from the onslaught of the mainstream press. And then there is the Rev. Robert Stearns, whose New York-based Eagles Wings has for the past seven years organized an annual "Day of Prayer for the Peace of Jerusalem" each October. This year, organizers expect more than 200,000 churches in 175 countries to take part in praying for Israel and its welfare. Locally, organizations such as the International Christian Embassy, Bridges for Peace and Christians for Israel provide aid to new immigrants, promote aliya and bring thousands of Christian pilgrims each year. This plethora of activities underlines the extent to which evangelical Christians in the US, Europe and elsewhere can be counted on to back the Jewish state across a variety of spheres. It is therefore essential that the country take additional steps to further strengthen this burgeoning alliance. This could include the appointment of a roving ambassador to the Christian world, tasked with responsibility for reinforcing Israel-Christian relations, and the convening of an annual summit of pro-Israel Christian leaders in Jerusalem under the auspices of the prime minister. Rather than focusing solely on the solicitation of Christians' dollars, the country should seek to cement their devotion by more actively reaching out and courting their support, prayers and cooperation. With so many challenges facing the Jewish state, it is time we recognize a clear and cogent fact: There are large numbers of Christians around the world ready and willing to stand with us. And, I might add, thank G-d for that. *--- from the March 25 Jerusalem Post* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/0219201f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 07:01:05 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 05:01:05 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Sh'foch Chamatcha: Justice" Message-ID: <855590370904050501w7fe983ag824d9215cd0610a2@mail.gmail.com> Sh'foch Chamatcha: Justice Nisan 11, 5769, 05 April 09 11:32 by by Rabbi Dr. Eliyahu Safran (IsraelNN.com) "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations that know Thee not and upon the kingdoms that call not upon Thy name; for they have consumed Jacob and laid waste his dwelling. Pour out Thy fury upon them, and may the kindling of Thine anger overtake them. Pursue them with anger and destroy them from under God's skies." Powerful, frightening, awe-filled words. During the Passover Seder, Jews the world over open the door of their dwellings and speak these words to God, with the nations as their witness; these words which upon simple read cry out for God's vengeance upon those who have harmed us and, by harming us, have demonstrated their lack of understanding of the God of Creation. For too many Jews, the recitation of the Passover Seder is a backward-looking tradition; a recitation of past events and miracles. For them, it does not speak to modern times and experience. To their ears, the beautiful *B'chol dor vador* is little more than a lovely melody. But for God's people, the past is never only the past. It is always prelude. The words of the Haggadah speak in the present tense, never just in the past. *B'chol dor vador* is never simply a lovely sentiment; never just a romanticized notion of the "chain of our tradition." Never reduced to musical theater sentiments. Those who fail to take seriously the truth of *b'chol dor vador*, or who deny the Pharaohs of their own day, are made uncomfortable by the power and passion of the *Sh'foch Chamatcha*. During the Victorian age, it was condemned in the London *Jewish World*: "[Are] we still, on each recurrence of the festival which celebrates God's compassionate love of His people, to pray to the Supreme, 'Pour out They wrath upon the heathen....'? Are we bound to repeat these and such like imprecations, aimless, purposeless, meaningless in our mouths, which gushed from the lips of our ill-used predecessors with such deadly earnestness? Must our prayer-book continue to be defaced by passages which should never have found entrance therein? Are our children to learn from us that prayer to God for mercy may be accompanied by hysterical entreaties for revenge - bloodshed, fire and destruction - on foes long passed away? In a word, must Jewish worship in the nineteenth and each succeeding century remain stained and disfigured by the blackest fruits of the dark middle ages?" These words cast the *Sh'foch Chamatcha* as immoral. Were these powerful and passionate words truly out of place in the Victorian Age? In our modern world? Has the world truly "turned" from those "dark middle ages"? If so, are the words of *B'chol dor vador* equally as misplaced? Let us not ever forget that for the Jew, past is never simply the past. If any Jew would forget that truth, perhaps it would be wise for him to consider approximately twenty minutes of one day in one year in one place. The time: about a month before Passover 2008. The place, Mercaz HaRav in Jerusalem, a yeshiva founded by the great Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook. The Jews - yeshiva students following the example of this gentle, brilliant scholar and leader - set about their studies. 8:36 p.m. - A lone gunman enters the yeshiva and opens fire indiscriminately. 8:36 - The first phone call is received by a Magen David Adom operator from a yeshiva student inside the building. The student requests emergency services. 8:37 - The first ambulances are dispatched. 8:40 - The first police car arrives at the yeshiva, but does not enter. 8:41 - The first paramedic on the scene reports of one wounded. 8:42 - Capt. David Shapira of the Israel Defense Force enters the yeshiva. 8:45 - Capt. Shapira and Yitzhak Dadon, a part-time student at the yeshiva, exchange gunfire with the shooter. 8:51 - *A.R.N.* (multiple wounded event) is declared. 8:57 - Magen David Adom operator reports an "end of shooting" and orders medics into the yeshiva. Twenty minutes. In a mere twenty minutes, a scene of scholarship becomes the scene of death and destruction. Eight students are dead. Eleven more are wounded, five in serious-to-critical condition. The perpetrator, a young Muslim, is also killed. Twenty minutes. The past becomes present. Again. There is a teaching in Judaism that each life is worth the whole of creation and when that life is lost, so too creation. Twenty minutes. Eight innocent students. *B'chol dor vador.* The mother of one of the students, sixteen-year old Avraham David Mozes, said, "God picks the most beautiful flowers for His garden. He sees him as an angel, and we should thank Him for the privilege of raising him for sixteen years. Sixteen years of purity and integrity and kindness." What would our Victorian writer say to Avraham's mother? Would he still decry the "hysterical entreaties" of the *Sh'foch Chamatcha*? Would he recognize the stains of the blackest fruits in those twenty minutes? How are we, mere human beings, not to cry out for vengeance in the face of such cruel actions? How can we not cry out to God, "Pour out Thy wrath..." Yet, if we do, we, like the Victorian writer, would be missing the deeper lesson of the *Sh'foch Chamatcha*. That the words of the *Sh'foch Chamatcha*are a pained and passionate response to the cruelty that the world has inflicted upon our people is clear; however, each instance of this cruelty quickly becomes a mere historical event. A temporal footnote. Like the tragic medieval events and circumstances that prompted the rabbis to include the words of the *Sh'foch Chamatcha* in the Haggadah, they are not enough to provide the theological foundation for later generations to pause in the midst of the Seder that God would "pour out" His wrath upon the nations. Even that these events occur *b'chol dor vador* is not sufficient theological justification. *Sh'foch Chamatcha* is not an expression of vengeance, but of justice and * geulah*. After all, *geulah* is a fundamental theme of the Haggadah and of Passover. What we know is that *geulah* did not and will never recur without the full and unqualified belief of the Jewish people that God punishes the wicked. Our morality finds its first voice in Abraham's words, "Shall the judge of all the Earth not deal justly?" (*Bereishit* 18:25) The Gaon of Vilna made clear that it is not our higher hope that the wicked suffer, but that the righteous prevail. The righteous can not prevail until the wicked are consumed, or perhaps more correctly, until wickedness is eradicated and the wicked perform *teshuvah*. After the defeat of Amalek - the prototype of the nation and people "that know Thee not" - God promises Moses, "I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under Heaven." (*Shemot* 17:14) God's promise is eternal. It stands not only for the Amalek of old, but for all those who follow Amalek's methods and tactics, all those who attack the rear guard - the weak, the aged, the women and the children. It is sensible to hope and pray that God will punish all those whose goal is to humiliate and defeat the Jews for no reason other than our being the Chosen People. We do not, however, seek God's punishment against those who "know Thee not" through active revenge. We are a people of peace and of justice. We do, however, place our faith in God and pray to Him, the One who does proclaim that "vengeance is mine" and who, in due time, will "pour out His wrath." On Shabbat, we pray to the God of Mercy, to *Av HaRachamim*, to recall with compassion, "the devout, the upright and the perfect ones; the holy congregations; the hundreds of thousands of martyred Jews who gave their lives for the Sanctification of the Name." We do not pray for the strength to avenge our martyrs with sword. We do not pray for the weapons to bring destruction upon our enemies. We are not motivated to repay murder, destruction and violence with murder, destruction and violence. No. We pray to God that, in His own time, He will choose how to atone for the innocent blood of His servants. We believe with perfect faith that the Avenger of blood will remember them. Life. Decency. Integrity. These remain our goals and our ideals. Yet, decency and integrity demand that we pray fervently and trust that He may, "before our eyes, exact retribution for the spilled blood of His servants," and fulfill His vow: "O nations, sing the praise of His people for He will avenge the blood of His servants and He will bring retribution upon His foes; and He will appease His land and His people." (*Devarim* 32:43) To do less would be to turn a blind eye to our brothers' suffering and the loss of innocent blood. Yes, God will avenge the suffering of his innocent people. However, vengeance is not our primary goal. Redemption is. Our faith is that God will vanquish the wicked so that we will be redeemed. What more appropriate time to express this trust and faith than on Seder night, the *Layl Shimurim*, the night of watching? On this night of *geulah*, when the Jews of Egypt were guarded and shielded from harm, Jews of every generation, *b'chol dor vador*, will also be watched and guarded. We open our door not to voice vengeance upon the nations, but in the full faith and expectation of redemption. Our trust and faith in God the Redeemer is unshaken and unshakable. And God flowers His garden with justice. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/44994859/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 07:04:25 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 05:04:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "The Moment of Decision" Message-ID: <855590370904050504o1adbfec5gbc39364aadcee4d@mail.gmail.com> The Moment of Decision Nisan 11, 5769, 05 April 09 10:48 by by Shira Smiles (IsraelNN.com) *Lesson of 26 Adar 5769, as summarized by Channie Koplowitz Stein* *Ein mazal beYisroel* - the alignments of the stars and the heavenly bodies have no influence on Israel. Yet, every twenty-eight years, we, *Bnei Yisroel*, can influence the sun and help bring down the blessings *HaShem*has imbued it with. Every twenty-eight years the sun realigns itself in the exact position it was in at creation, and we offer *HaShem* a blessing to thank Him for this gift. At this moment, our blessings empower the sun so that all the Earth can receive its light and its warmth, and the moon can reflect its glory at night. The sun does not seem to play an integral part in Judaism. Indeed, our first *mitzvah* in the Torah is the blessing of the new moon. As a result, all our holidays are based on the moon and its cycles. We are told, therefore, that we were given the moon as our inheritance while Esau was given the sun. It seems strange that while the whole world benefits from the sun, we seem only to be able to reflect its light. This appears to be the reality of the Diaspora, where we rely on the benevolence of the nations. Nevertheless, if the nations would not permit us to develop our light, the light of Torah, under their aegis, soon they would disappear from the world, and indeed the whole world would be destroyed. Although the sun was given to Esau, *HaShem* wanted Israel to have the ultimate control over the sun and its blessings. By giving us the authority to bless the sun as it begins its new cycle, we enable the sun to bring its goodness to the world, just as any blessing asks *HaShem* to promote the inherent potential of that which is blessed. What would give *Bnei Yisroel*such power over the sun, the emissary of Esau? It is that which gives us power over Esau at any time: our power of speech, our use of Torah learning to do *mitzvot* and pray. Because when we live our lives in this way, we possess the true light: "For a *mitzvah* is a candle and the Torah is light." We are asked to internalize the lessons of the sun every day, for *HaShem*"in His goodness renews daily, perpetually, the work of creation." All the more so must we internalize these lessons as we begin each new twenty-eight year cycle. And what are some of these lessons for which *HaShem* compares those who love Him to the sun in its strength? One answer can be found in a *midrash* on creation. When the two heavenly luminaries were first created, the moon complained that there could be no two kings ruling one sphere. *HaShem* agreed with the moon and told it to diminish itself. How does this prove anything about the sun? Logically, the sun could have defended itself immediately and argued that since it was created first, it was the major ruler of the heavens. But the sun was silent. God Himself came to the sun's defense. It is this humility and self-abnegation to the will of *HaShem* that we are to learn from the sun. The sun understood that its purpose was to serve *HaShem*, nothing more and nothing less. It did not complain about having to share its space with the moon. Had *HaShem* made it smaller instead of the moon, it would have been equally content, for it was still serving the true Ruler of the heavens. Its very name, *shemesh*, reflects this attitude of service. Along these same lines, we must learn that we are required to begin whatever task *HaShem* has set out for us. We cannot know whether or not we will actually complete the task; that is at the sole discretion of *HaKodosh boruch Hu*. Just as the sun rises each morning to shine, even on cloudy days when its rays may not reach the Earth, so too must we begin each task with hope and understand that its completion is the sole provenance of the *Ribono shel olam*. Let the sun shine not only on us, but also for us, as it did for Jacob on his journey. The possibility of failure must not prevent us from starting. It is this very moment of decision that presents a crisis. In spite of all our preparations, we may suddenly be paralyzed with uncertainty. Even Noah, the *tzaddik* of his generation who worked 120 years on building the ark, was plagued with hesitancy at the last moment and had to be forced into the ark by the raging waters. *HaShem* in His mercy kept us from this moment of indecision and hesitancy when we left Egypt; he instructed us to eat quickly and sent the Egyptians to chase us out of Egypt. As the sun shines on us each day and causes us to cast a shadow, do we remain true to our essence or does our shadow become our reality? In those early morning hours, when both sun and moon are visible, will be egotistical as the moon, or will we understand our purpose as the sun? As we approach this third time since creation that the sun is in its original position on *erev Pesach*, a time preordained for redemption, let us pray that the sun and moon will revert to their true purpose, to mark the times of our holidays and testimonies, and that the true light hidden since creation will again emerge as *HaShem*'s Presence becomes immanent on Earth once again. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/62526bd8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 07:08:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 05:08:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] The Blessing of the Sun Message-ID: <855590370904050508yd602a00qcd8c344138747a0e@mail.gmail.com> Hi Everyone! On April 8, 2009, the eve of Passover, Jews around the world will rise early, glance at the sun and recite the least-frequently-recited blessing in Judaism: Birkat HaChama, the blessing on the sun. We recite this blessing once every 28 years. I created a resource page with links to articles and videos about Birkat HaChama. The address is: http://www.jr.co.il/hotsites/j-birkat-hachama.htm Happy Passover, Jacob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/2f6ca73c/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Sun Apr 5 07:41:17 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 07:41:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. In-Reply-To: References: <49D74616.2080105@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49D8A6ED.1070202@gninc.ca> Joe I agree with Pat. This is what builds, may Hashem bless you in your devotion for the way of reuth. Cornie Patricia Robbins wrote: > Joe, this is a wonderful piece. Thank you so much. You have written > with both love and truth. I really can't tell you how much I > appreciate what you have said here. > > Shavua Tov, > > Avigail > > *From:* JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Saturday, April 04, 2009 7:35 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. > > /Shavua Tov Chaverim, > > I have had a restful and blessed Shabbat, something that I am sure > that some of you did not have the pleasure to enjoy based on some of > the posts that were shared just prior to the Shabbat in your neck of > the woods. > > My response will be very general and to the point. If I offend anyone > my apologies in advance. It is not meant to be personal but there are > certain things that must be said. > > Both temples were destroyed for "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred > amongst the Jews. > The first temple was destroyed for the breaking of the law of shmitah > or the sabbatical release of slaves and the rest of the land. > The second temple was destroyed because of factionalism and sectarian > bloodletting. > It MUST BE STRESSED that Beit Yehudah remained loyal to Torah despite > its consistant backsliding. > > > Idolatry on the other hand was in the realm of Beit Yisrael or the > Northern Kingdom. The expert artist was Efrayim. > Beit Yisrael was dispersed after it went into Exile. > > Did Israel fail in its mission to teach Torah to the nations ? > > / > > /If I may I would like to add a little more juice to this concept. > Ya'cov had two legs, Beit Yisrael and Beit Yehudah. > He limped away from Penuel after the famous wrestle. > Has Yisrael stumbled so as to fall ? No, may it never be ! > So Yisrael stumbled, but never fell. > When did Yisrael stumble ? > Which thigh was put out of joint ? > / > > /Please read 1Kings 12 v a5 - 33. > / > > /Notice : > Yeravam ( Jeroboam ) went to live at Shechem in the hill country of > Efrayim. > Yervam rebuilt Penuel. > Yervam re instituted the golden calf worship > Yeravam feared the union of the two houses. > Yeravam instituted the counterfeit priesthood not according to the > Levitical order. > Yeravam instituted the counterfeit religious order. > Yeravam instituted the counterfeit temple. > Yeravam instituted the counterfeit festival of Succot in the 8th month. > Yeravam presumptuously became the high priest by burning incense./ > > /Now I will ask those questions again. // > Beit Yisrael was put out of joint. Beit Yehudah kept Ya'cov upright > without falling. > / > > /Yes it is true that many Christians died at the hands of other > Christians. Protestants at the hands of Catholics and vice versa. No > matter how hard you try and analyze this historical fact you come to > the same conclusion ; many died in the cause of a_ *lie*_. Jews on the > other hand died for the _*truth*_!!!! > Am I passionate about this ? You bet I am. > The living memory of the Holocaust is still in our midst and yet the > denial is already in motion. > Hez, I apologize to you personally, because you had family that went > up in smoke on the altars of arrogant racial supremecy and gentile > indifference. > / > > /So much for history. The pivotal point of this argument commences now. > / > > /Let us forget the Nazi horrors of WW2 and the miraculous birth of a > nation of Israel in one day for just a while. > Let us say that the modern nation of Israel did not exist. > / > > /How many of you would be eating pork rolls and bacon fritters ? > How many of you would be wearing your best dress to church on Sunday? > How many of you would be munching on Easter eggs at the Easter parade? > How many of you would be putting up your decorations on the Xmas tree > whilst singing carols? > / > > /Now, how many of you would be doing all the above despite having a > Bible that clearly states : > to keep kosher dietary laws. > to keep the Shabbat. > to keep the Chagim. > to keep family purity laws. > / > > /Come on,Be honest./ > > /The formation of the Jewish state of Israel and its survival during > severe wars was a sovereign act of HaShem. > It served as a Divine witness to the nations that HaShem's Word is > true and steadfast. > / > > /The fact is that the Bible always had the Tanach attached. > So where did all these new understandings and teachings come > from....... from the *_JEWS !!!!_* > / > > /Come on all you fine folk that will be sitting down for a Pesach > Seder, who make Succahs for Succot, who light the candles for > Chanukah, who observe and rest on Shabbat ,who recite the Shema > perfectly, who follow the ONE G-D, ,............. who taught you these > things ? > Who taught you the Rosh Chodesh , which is crucial in the determining > of the Holy calender? > Without the Jewish people we would of had no chance in a wide world. > / > > /My Jewish brothers and sisters, thank you very much for sanctifying > HaShem's Holy Name even under the pain of death. > I thank your ancestors from the bottom of my heart in that they kept > themselves separate unto HaShem . Without out them and you , the light > of HaShem's Revelation would have been lost to the world. The only > Chillul HaShem or desecration of the Holy Name was that you were out > of the land. Baruch HaShem, HE has brought you back home as a personal > witness to the nations of His omnipotence. > / > > /I would not be here writing this essay and all the other information > that I have shared with you , had it not been for the resistance and > the tenacity of the Jewish people. > Respect to where it belongs. > / > > /A story relates that Napoleon Bonaparte once entered a synagogue on > Tish B'Av, the solemn fast day each year that marks the anniversary of > the destruction of the Holy Temple. Seeing the Jewish worshippers > seated on the floor and crying, he asked what terrible disaster had > befallen them. "The Jews are in mourning for their temple, Your > Excellency." > He asked" What Temple? When did this event occur?" > Upon learning that the Jews were grieving over the destruction of the > Temple at Jerusalem more than 1700 years earlier, the Emperor > remarked; "Such a people as this will never be destroyed! If they > still remember to mourn for their temple of so long ago, they will > surely see it rebuilt." > / > > /On ending this response, I would like to give HaShem the last say > straight out of the Tanach. > To him or her that has an ear let him or her listen to what the Spirit > is saying. > / > > / > > / > > *??* ?????????? ???-???????? ??????, ??????? ????? ???????????, > ???????????, ?????????????? ???????; ???????? ???-???????, ???????? > ??????????. *11* And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood > among the myrtle-trees, and said: 'We have walked to and fro through > the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.' > *??* ???????? ????????-??????, ?????????, ?????? ????????, ???-????? > ?????? ???-??????? ???-???????????? ????? ????? ????????--?????? > ??????????, ??? ????????? ??????. *12* Then the angel of the LORD > spoke and said:_* /'O LORD of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have > compassion on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah,/*_ against which > Thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? > *??* ???????? ??????, ???-??????????? ???????? ????--????????? > ???????: ?????????, ????????. *13* And the LORD answered the angel > that spoke with me with good words, _*/even comforting words/*-_- > *??* ????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? > ????? ?????? ????????: ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? > ????????. *14* so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: > 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts:_/* I am jealous > for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy;*/_ > *??* ??????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, > ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. *15* _*/and > I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was > but a little displeased, and they helped for evil./*_ > *??* ????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? > ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? > (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. *16* Therefore thus saith the > LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built > in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth > over Jerusalem. > *??* ???? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? > ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? > ??????????????. {?} /_*17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the > LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the > LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.'*_ > Zech 1 : 11-17. > > / > > /_*I want to shout and proclaim this to the entire universe !!!!!! >:o > *_/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSrB8tatXk > > /Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > / > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/f041a90d/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 5 09:27:56 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 07:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. In-Reply-To: <49D74616.2080105@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <460073.64119.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shalom, Joe ? Thank you for another post which enlightens and educates me. I learn something new from every post you make. You spoke the truth in love which is how we as Hashem's children are supposed to speak even in disagreement,Thank you for this example of your tireless, patience, steadfastness and lovingkindness to all of us on the list.May Hashem continue to?give you the stamina to continue in your zeal in study and in sharing with others. I am inspired to improve and increase my passion for Hashem,Israel and Judah,Torah and the land. ? Wishing everyone a meaningful and peaceful Pesach and hoping for Elijah to appear. Now back to preparing for this wonderful upcoming?festival. ? Shalom and Ahavah, Helen?. p.s. I won't be able to attend the conference in Charlotte. Heather, my younger daughter is expecting her first child (daughter) within the next few weeks and I need to be near for her. --- On Sat, 4/4/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] SHAVUAH TOV. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 7:35 AM Shavua Tov Chaverim, I have had a restful and blessed Shabbat, something that I am sure that some of you did not have the pleasure to enjoy based on some of the posts that were shared just prior to the Shabbat in your neck of the woods. My response will be very general and to the point. If I offend anyone my apologies in advance. It is not meant to be personal but there are certain things that must be said. Both temples were destroyed for "Sinat Chinam" or baseless hatred amongst the Jews. The first temple was destroyed for the breaking of the law of shmitah or the sabbatical release of slaves and the rest of the land. The second temple was destroyed because of factionalism and sectarian bloodletting. It MUST BE STRESSED that Beit Yehudah remained loyal to Torah despite its consistant backsliding. Idolatry on the other hand was in the realm of Beit Yisrael or the Northern Kingdom. The expert artist was Efrayim. Beit Yisrael was dispersed after it went into Exile. Did Israel fail in its mission to teach Torah to the nations ? If I may I would like to add a little more juice to this concept. Ya'cov had two legs,? Beit Yisrael and Beit Yehudah. He limped away from Penuel after the famous wrestle. Has Yisrael stumbled so as to fall ? No, may it never be ! So Yisrael stumbled, but never fell. When did Yisrael stumble ? Which thigh was put out of joint ? Please read 1Kings 12 v a5 - 33. Notice : Yeravam ( Jeroboam ) went to live at Shechem in the hill country of Efrayim. Yervam rebuilt Penuel. Yervam re instituted the golden calf worship Yeravam feared the union of the two houses. Yeravam? instituted the counterfeit priesthood not according to the Levitical order. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit religious order. Yeravam instituted the counterfeit temple. Yeravam instituted? the counterfeit festival of Succot in the 8th month. Yeravam presumptuously became the high priest by burning incense. Now I will ask those questions again. Beit Yisrael was put out of joint. Beit Yehudah kept Ya'cov upright without falling. Yes it is true that many Christians died at the hands of other Christians. Protestants at the hands of Catholics and vice versa. No matter how hard you try and analyze this historical fact you come to the same conclusion ; many died in the cause of a lie. Jews on the other hand died for the truth!!!! Am I passionate about this ? You bet I am. The living memory of the Holocaust is still in our midst and yet the denial is already in motion. Hez, I apologize to you personally, because you had family that went up in smoke on the altars of arrogant racial supremecy and gentile indifference. So much for history. The pivotal point of this argument commences now. Let us forget the Nazi horrors of WW2 and the miraculous birth of a nation of Israel in one day for just a while. Let us say that the modern nation of Israel did not exist. How many of you would be eating pork rolls and bacon fritters ? How many of you would be wearing your best dress to church on Sunday? How many of you would be munching on Easter eggs at the Easter parade? How many of you would be putting up your decorations on the Xmas tree whilst singing carols? Now, how many of you would be doing all the above despite having a Bible that clearly states : to keep kosher dietary laws. to keep the Shabbat. to keep the Chagim. to keep family purity laws. Come on,Be honest. The formation of the Jewish state of Israel and its survival during severe wars was a sovereign act of HaShem. It served as a Divine witness to the nations that HaShem's Word is true and steadfast. The fact is that the Bible always had the Tanach attached. So where did all these new understandings and teachings come from....... from the JEWS !!!! Come on all you fine folk that will be sitting down for a Pesach Seder, who make Succahs for Succot, who light the candles for Chanukah, who observe and rest on Shabbat ,who recite the Shema perfectly, who follow the ONE G-D, ,............. who taught you these things ? Who taught you the Rosh Chodesh , which is crucial in the determining of the Holy calender? Without the Jewish people we would of had no chance in a wide world. My Jewish brothers and sisters, thank you very much for sanctifying HaShem's Holy Name even under the pain of death. I thank your ancestors from the bottom of my heart in that they kept themselves separate unto HaShem . Without out them and you , the light of HaShem's Revelation would have been lost to the world. The only Chillul HaShem or desecration of the Holy Name was that you were out of the land. Baruch HaShem, HE has brought you back home as a personal witness to the nations of His omnipotence. I would not be here writing this essay and all the other information that I have shared with you , had it not been for the resistance and the tenacity of the Jewish people. Respect to where it belongs. A story relates that Napoleon Bonaparte once entered a synagogue on Tish B'Av, the solemn fast day each year that marks the anniversary of the destruction of the Holy Temple. Seeing the Jewish worshippers seated on the floor and crying, he asked what terrible disaster had befallen them. "The Jews are in mourning for their temple, Your Excellency." He asked" What Temple? When did this event occur?" Upon learning that the Jews were grieving over the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem more than 1700 years earlier, the Emperor remarked; "Such a people as this will never be destroyed! If they still remember to mourn for their temple of so long ago, they will surely see it rebuilt." On ending this response, I would like to give HaShem the last say straight out of the Tanach. To him or her that has an ear let him or her listen to what the Spirit is saying. ?????????????? ???-???????? ??????, ??????? ????? ???????????, ???????????, ?????????????? ???????; ???????? ???-???????, ???????? ??????????. 11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle-trees, and said: 'We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.' ???????????? ????????-??????, ?????????, ?????? ????????, ???-????? ?????? ???-??????? ???-???????????? ????? ????? ????????--?????? ??????????, ??? ????????? ??????. 12 Then the angel of the LORD spoke and said: 'O LORD of hosts, how long wilt Thou not have compassion on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which Thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? ???????????? ??????, ???-??????????? ???????? ????--????????? ???????:? ?????????, ????????. 13 And the LORD answered the angel that spoke with me with good words, even comforting words-- ????????????? ?????, ??????????? ???????? ????, ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????:? ????????? ????????????? ???????????, ??????? ????????. 14 so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; ??????????? ??????? ????? ?????, ???-????????? ???????????????, ?????? ????? ?????????? ??????, ???????? ??????? ???????. 15 and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. ????????? ????-????? ??????, ????????? ????????????? ???????????--??????? ???????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????????; ???? (?????) ????????, ???-????????????. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. ???????? ????? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ???? ??????????? ?????, ???????; ??????? ?????? ???? ???-???????, ??????? ???? ??????????????.? {?} 17 Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.'? Zech 1 : 11-17. I want to shout and proclaim this to the entire universe !!!!!! >:o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSrB8tatXk Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/f54511e9/attachment.html From MELA91E at aol.com Sun Apr 5 09:58:07 2009 From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:58:07 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] A Pesah Contemplation Message-ID: Hanoch, Yet again thank you for posting something that talks so strongly to the heart and mind - you know all the good places to hang out and get good stuff - I bet you know all the good coffee shops around too!! In many ways, with some that has been going on in the last few days, this really seems to speak - or at least it does to me. The bit that after reading all of it that my mind kept coming back to and had held onto the most was this section: Life is a long road and only Heaven knows the right course through it. That which is the right course for one may very well be the wrong course for another. One's course through life is highly subjective. The path which one follows is never the exact same path followed by another. Therefore, only with guidance from Heaven will one find one's true path. Without the guidance of Heaven one will walk through life lost and forever searching for that place which only the Soul within can recognize as home. Seems to me, as Ariel Bar Tzadok says, that Torah is the answer, the guidance, the reflective mirror that we can gaze on to see what lies behind our lives, behind the here and now and to catch the glimpses of the others on the path with us, but in the end it is up to us with this reflective guidance and revelation from HaShem to choose to walk the right path for ourselves. That is the point as well, truly we all may be walking a common footpath but what we notice along the way is different to each of us because each of is different and HaShems plans and needs for each of us is different, This is not to be underestimated or overlooked and we should not consider ourselves, any of us, as more something, er even less something, than others just because HaShem has put us in one place or another, or chosen some of us for more special roles or such, or we might be more 'Chosen', to do this is to not understand HaShem it seems to me but to loose sight of the fact that he created all and yes even calls all! (not that I think I do understand HaShem, just need to clarify this - for who can understand the mind and ways of HaShem, great and mighty, kind and compassionate, ruler of all - but I think we can get glimpses of His most amazingness). So maybe we should pay more attention to our own path and walk, but it is still important to watch out for the others on the path in front, beside or behind us, and maybe it makes sense to say - hey what do you see, can you tell me, describe it to me, point out the stony places, the cracks and also the beautiful hidden mysteries you notice, the bird singing in the tree I might not have noticed over the sound of my own footseps, the small yellow flower nestled at the roots of the ochre coloured tree, the child running just ahead chasing the dandelion fluff blowing away from him and ruffled by HaShems gentle cooling breeze. Perhaps if we did this with a gentle joy and acceptance of our own path intersecting as it does with all the others then we would get a lot further on that journey each day than we do now. Ok thems me thoughts! Usual rules apply - these are just my thoughts, they might be wrong and misguided as much as right and feel free to critique, complement or consign to the bin - but please know that no insult or offense is ever intended ingeneral or to any one. Best Melanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/23bf6008/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 10:21:49 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 08:21:49 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Pesah Contemplation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370904050821y2d3a09bdo3c1e64e3a12a8f11@mail.gmail.com> Hey Melanie - Yeah, when it comes to the web, at least - I DO know the best places to hang out - LOL The section you highlighted also spoke LOUDLY to me. Sometimes, in groups like these (this list, for instance...), there's a tendency for some, once someone has found "THE Truth" - they feel compelled to hammer it into everyone else's head that THEIRS was *THE* WAY. The reality is that we all DO share some of the essentials, but it is HaShem that is guiding each of our individual paths, understanding, experiences, challenges and direction. I guess you can think of it as a recipe, some need a little more pepper, others a little more garlic....and like it or not, some of us are indeed called to do more of something then some others. It's not a reflection on anyone, good OR bad. It just 'is, as it is..' I posted that article (and about a dozen other things....) because I think many people can relate to it on many different levels. It seems to have SO much to say to everyone. However, what it doesn't say, with your permission, I can borrow from *you*: "So maybe we should pay more attention to our own path and walk, but it is still important to watch out for the others on the path in front, beside or behind us, and maybe it makes sense to say - hey what do you see, can you tell me, describe it to me, point out the stony places, the cracks and also the beautiful hidden mysteries you notice, the bird singing in the tree I might not have noticed over the sound of my own footseps, the small yellow flower nestled at the roots of the ochre coloured tree, the child running just ahead chasing the dandelion fluff blowing away from him and ruffled by HaShems gentle cooling breeze. Perhaps if we did this with a gentle joy and acceptance of our own path intersecting as it does with all the others then we would get a lot further on that journey each day than we do now." Amazing point Melanie...something for us to strive for each, and every day. Toda..... * Hanoch* On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:58 AM, wrote: > Hanoch, > > Yet again thank you for posting something that talks so strongly to the > heart and mind - you know all the good places to hang out and get good stuff > - I bet you know all the good coffee shops around too!! > In many ways, with some that has been going on in the last few days, this > really seems to speak - or at least it does to me. > The bit that after reading all of it that my mind kept coming back to and > had held onto the most was this section: > > Life is a long road and only Heaven knows the right course through it. That > which is the right course for one may very well be the wrong course for > another. One's course through life is highly subjective. The path which one > follows is never the exact same path followed by another. > > Therefore, only with guidance from Heaven will one find one's true path. > Without the guidance of Heaven one will walk through life lost and forever > searching for that place which only the Soul within can recognize as home. > > Seems to me, as Ariel Bar Tzadok says, that Torah is the answer, the > guidance, the reflective mirror that we can gaze on to see what lies behind > our lives, behind the here and now and to catch the glimpses of the others > on the path with us, but in the end it is up to us with this > reflective guidance and revelation from HaShem to choose to walk the right > path for ourselves. > > That is the point as well, truly we all may be walking a common footpath > but what we notice along the way is different to each of us because each of > is different and HaShems plans and needs for each of us is different, This > is not to be underestimated or overlooked and we should not consider > ourselves, any of us, as more something, er even less something, than others > just because HaShem has put us in one place or another, or chosen some of us > for more special roles or such, or we might be more 'Chosen', to do this is > to not understand HaShem it seems to me but to loose sight of the fact that > he created all and yes even calls all! (not that I think I do understand > HaShem, just need to clarify this - for who can understand the mind and ways > of HaShem, great and mighty, kind and compassionate, ruler of all - but I > think we can get glimpses of His most amazingness). > > So maybe we should pay more attention to our own path and walk, but it is > still important to watch out for the others on the path in front, beside or > behind us, and maybe it makes sense to say - hey what do you see, can you > tell me, describe it to me, point out the stony places, the cracks and also > the beautiful hidden mysteries you notice, the bird singing in the tree I > might not have noticed over the sound of my own footseps, the small yellow > flower nestled at the roots of the ochre coloured tree, the child running > just ahead chasing the dandelion fluff blowing away from him and ruffled by > HaShems gentle cooling breeze. > Perhaps if we did this with a gentle joy and acceptance of our own path > intersecting as it does with all the others then we would get a lot further > on that journey each day than we do now. > > Ok thems me thoughts! Usual rules apply - these are just my thoughts, > they might be wrong and misguided as much as right and feel free to > critique, complement or consign to the bin - but please know that no insult > or offense is ever intended ingeneral or to any one. > > Best > > Melanie > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/18422f2e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 12:39:31 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 10:39:31 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Message-ID: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "*It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. *For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/6b3e8125/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Sun Apr 5 13:55:17 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 14:55:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Was the Last Supper a Passover Seder? In-Reply-To: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <062f01c9b620$12175ee0$36461ca0$@com> Shalom All, This topic is currently being discussed on the SWW forum. Below are my latest observations, I welcome any comments: While the synoptics harmonize on the Last Supper and the events surrounding them, they appear to be either harmoniously in error, or more likely, misunderstood. We read: MATTHEW 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?" 18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, 'The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."' 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover 20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." MARK 14:12 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, "Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?" 13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, "Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. 14 Wherever he goes in, say to the master of the house, 'The Teacher says, "Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' 15 Then he will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us." 16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover 17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me." LUKE 22:7 Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed. 8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat." 9 So they said to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare?" 10 And He said to them, "Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house which he enters. 11 Then you shall say to the master of the house, 'The Teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with My disciples?"' 12 Then he will show you a large, furnished upper room; there make ready." 13 So they went and found it just as He had said to them, and they prepared the Passover. [14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." Consider the problems in the underlined verses. The author is either confused here, or else the Preparation Day was also known as the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The lambs were slaughtered on the Preparation Day, not on the First Day of Unleavened Bread. More points to consider: 1. The Jewish Passover from its beginning until today has always been a family meal. In a Jewish Seder the mother has duties and the children ask questions about the meaning of the event. A gathering of thirteen males away from their families could hardly be viewed as a Jewish Passover meal. 2. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, who together took the body of Jesus down from the cross and buried him in Joseph's tomb, would have been defiled by contact with a dead body. According to the rule in Numbers 9:9-13 their own family Passover would have had to be cancelled, and they would have met with their families for a Passover meal a month later. 3. The high priest and other religious leaders clearly wanted Jesus crucified and out of the way before the Passover celebration began: Mark.14 [1] After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. [2] But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people. Matt.26 [3] Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, [4] And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him. [5] But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people. 4. In Luke 22:16 Jesus proclaims that he will not be eating the coming Passover meal: "Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." Literally: "For I say to you that never in any way will I eat of it until it is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God." 5. In Howard's Hebrew Gospel of Matthew 26:25 we read: "They were eating and Jesus took bread (lechem)..." 6. In A Commentary, Critical, Expository, and Practical, on the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, by John Jason Owen, we read: "This was the 14th day of the month Nisan, and was called the First Day of Unleavened Bread, because it constituted a day of preparation for the Passover, which was celebrated on the evening of that day...This Day of Preparation might well and naturally be referred to as the first day of the festival of unleavened bread, although, properly speaking, that feast did not commence, until after the Passover had been eaten the following evening. This is confirmed by Josephus, who speaks of the 14th day of Nisan as being the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, although in another place, he expressly fixes the beginning of that festival on the fifteenth. In this way also that historian speaks of the festival, as continuing eight days." I think from the sources presented, we can conclude that the Last Supper was not a Passover Seder. Blessings to All, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/e74e46dd/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Apr 5 15:51:09 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 16:51:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <027f01c9b404$ce194040$6a4bc0c0$@com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <027f01c9b404$ce194040$6a4bc0c0$@com> Message-ID: We laugh, we learn and sometimes we get sideways with each other a little, but we are no doubt the beginning of the fulfillment of the Prophets vision of the future.... our grandfathers of the last few generations would have never believe it, if you told them of this day and this dialogue. The good, the bad, and the ugly! Warts and all we are moving into the future and in the future we will meet our beloved! Just for fun Patty this one is for you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5kek3D-4I _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] I have to agree here. Swine was forbidden to eat because it is unhealthy. If it is unhealthy for the Jew, isn't it unhealthy for all? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. James On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate the meat from the fat. You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no neck to slit. Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in the blood. On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. ========Original Message======== Subj: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Date: 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time From: mhyde7 at tds.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent on: In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in Orthodox Judaism that the "Pig" is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles. Don't hit me! Just sharing information! Peace Brother, _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] Hey Susie, I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right. I don't think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has given us that brings evil into the world. Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"! Why, because HaShem said so. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- Hey Joe, Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who understand Hebrew. The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? Susie --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM Shalom Melanie, I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old Dart." No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we have the cricket ashes. ;-) I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will understand the ways of HaShem. Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest for this emet. In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will always be. Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is Truth. So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the occasional speed bumps. Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. Dialogue is the main ingredient. I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit your page to get to know you. Tally Ho, ol'chap. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _____ Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession . _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/7358c0ff/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Apr 5 15:51:58 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 16:51:58 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hanoch, I don't know the language yet.. But I still get my soul stirred listening to this beautiful music.. just think! One day when we are all gather in Jerusalem! Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/cd478649/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Sun Apr 5 19:02:06 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:02:06 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! References: <253119.91990.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012101c9b64a$eca1c670$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Hi Susie !! Maybe I should say that the Laws are diff to the Jews and for the Goy, or the believer of the G-d of Israel. When Hashem seperated Israel from the World, or Nations, they certainly could not have the same rules. "Or" if every gentile was the same as the Jew there would be no need of a chosen People??? The Torah is Eternal, but to each there own place. Even Ye Shua said " Heaven and earth may pass away, but my Torah will never pass away". It is only my outlook or understanding, as I try to understand his way. Dick L Subject: Hello! Hi Dick, In response to this: I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? I know that a lot of people believe this. For most of my life I was taught and believed that the ways of G-d were now different for all mankind let alone a G-d who had different ways for the Jew vs. the Gentile. Now for me what a relief and comfort that the Torah is eternal, one , and for all mankind. Susie --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:43 AM I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/b6bb9135/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 5 16:04:07 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 21:04:07 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesach Message-ID: <1737305622-1238965311-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-74963616-@bxe1179.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thinking of Passover? This is the subject of tonight's Sunday Shul. I hope that you can join us-6 PM central. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 17:11:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 15:11:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Marvin, You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it meaningful. I wrote the translation at the bottom of my email. I will try if at all possible to transliterate it if I have time before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for time right now. Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah and we can try to sing it together, how's that sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have turned me into a really good singer! Take care my friend, * Hanoch * On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde wrote: > Thanks Hanoch, > > > > I don?t know the language yet?. But I still get my soul stirred listening > to this beautiful music?? just think! One day when we are all gather in > Jerusalem! > > > > Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? > > > > marvin > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young > *Sent:* Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody > > > > Shalom L'Kulam, > > > > As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like > to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live > version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly > after the 4 Questions. > > Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - > Live in Caesaria > > > > 'V'hi Sheamda..' "*It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. *For > not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation > they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, > rescues us from their hand." > > > > Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... > > > > Chag Sameach, > > * Hanoch* > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/ae317aba/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 5 19:02:38 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 17:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! In-Reply-To: <012101c9b64a$eca1c670$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <134864.49096.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hey Dick, ? I think you see it in the way Hez sees it. We are both driving different cars down the road to the same destination. I guess I feel Hashem intended us to get in the same car(all in one Accord?) The Israelites were set apart to be the drivers as they were given the directions on how to get there because of the promise He had given Abraham through Isaac. G-d relied on the BEST of the BEST because He knew they wouldn't lose the directions. ? Susie --- On Sun, 4/5/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 5:02 PM Hi Susie !!?? Maybe I should say that the Laws are diff to the Jews and for the Goy, or?the believer of the G-d of Israel. When Hashem seperated Israel from the World, or Nations, they certainly could not have the same rules. "Or" if every gentile was the same as the Jew there would be no need of a chosen People??? ??? The Torah is Eternal, but to each there own place.? Even Ye Shua said " Heaven and earth may pass away, but my Torah will never pass away". ???? It is only my outlook or understanding, as I try to understand his way. ??????? Dick L Subject: Hello! Hi Dick, ? In response to this: I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews???? ? I know that a lot of people believe this. For most of my life I was taught and believed that the ways of G-d were now different for all mankind let alone a G-d who had different ways for the Jew vs. the Gentile. Now for me what a relief and comfort that the Torah is eternal, one , and for all mankind. ? Susie ? ? ? ? ? --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:43 AM I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews???? ?????? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the?Muslim religion today.? Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, ? I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. ? Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? ? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/db8a66f3/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 5 19:27:14 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:27:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Class on Passover Message-ID: <8CB846591B75D3F-1624-11AD@MBLK-M41.sysops.aol.com> I just posted the podcast for my teaching on the upcoming Festival of Pesach for those that are interested. http://rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts/ Shalom, Ross P.S. The notes will be up as soon as practicle. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/0a1bb727/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 21:33:55 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:33:55 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Obama's Rabbi" - his wife's cousin Message-ID: <855590370904051933kbf499e5h6f54cdc658b2e59@mail.gmail.com> An interesting article on many levels...from today's *New York Times Magazine * * Hanoch* *Obama?s Rabbi* Alec Soth/Magnum, for The New York Times Hallelujah, shalom: Rabbi Funnye singing at Shabbat services. By ZEV CHAFETS Published: April 2, 2009 Rabbi Capers Funnye celebrated Martin Luther KingDay this year in New York City at the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue, a mainstream Reform congregation, in the company of about 700 fellow Jews ? many of them black. The organizers of the event had reached out to four of New York?s Black Jewish synagogues in the hope of promoting Jewish diversity, and they weren?t disappointed. African-American Jews, largely from Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens, many of whom had never been in a predominantly white synagogue, made up about a quarter of the audience. Most of the visiting women wore traditional African garb; the men stood out because, though it was a secular occasion, most kept their heads covered. But even with your eyes closed you could tell who was who: the black Jews and the white Jews clapped to the music on different beats. Enlarge This Image Alec Soth/Magnum, for The New York Times Rabbi Capers Funnye Funnye, the chief rabbi of the Beth Shalom B?nai Zaken Ethiopian Hebrew Congregation in Chicago, one of the largest black synagogues in America, was a featured speaker that night. The overflowing audience came out in a snowstorm to hear his thoughts about two men: the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Barack Obama. King is Funnye?s hero. Obama, whose inaugurationwas to take place the following day in Washington, is family ? the man who married Funnye?s cousin Michelle. A compact, serious-looking man in his late 50s, Funnye (pronounced fu-NAY) wore a dark business suit and a large gray knit skullcap. He sat expressionless, collecting his thoughts, as Joshua Nelson and his Kosher Gospel Band steamed through their sanctified rendition of the Hebrew hymn ?Adon Olam.? Nelson, a black Jew, was raised in two Jewish worlds ? a white Reform temple in New Jersey and a Black Jewish synagogue in Brooklyn ? and he borrows from both. The first time the Rev. Al Sharptonheard a recording of Nelson?s ?Adon Olam,? he said, ?I can hear that?s Mahalia Jackson, but what language is she singing in?? Mary Funnye, Capers?s wife, tapped her foot to the music and smiled with apparent equanimity, but her husband knew she was seething inside. ?Mary has been a rabbi?s wife for a long time,? he told me a few weeks later. ?She has an excellent synagogue poker face. But she really wanted to be in Washington that night? ? for the early inauguration festivities ? ?not New York. And you can?t really blame her.? The Funnyes were invited to Washington by the Obamas for a full calendar of inaugural events, including a dinner that evening held by the president-elect for his family and close advisers. Mary?s brother, Frank White Jr., a businessman who served as a prominent member of Obama?s national finance committee, was invited. So were three of Funnye?s sisters. It was going to be the family reunion of the year, the social event of the season and a crowning moment in American history. Mary had a formal gown ready. But here she was, singing ?Adon Olam,? as she did virtually every Shabbat in Chicago. Still, to be fair, this night was a historic moment for her husband too. For the first time in a rabbinical career stretching back to 1985, Funnye had been invited to speak at a white, mainstream synagogue in New York. Plenty of black Christian ministers, in a spirit of ecumenism and racial harmony, have addressed Jewish congregations in the city. But a black rabbi? Many American Jews regard the very concept as an oxymoron, or even, given the heterodoxies of much Black Jewish theology, some sort of heresy. Funnye has been trying for years to demonstrate that he and his fellow Black Jews belong in the Jewish mainstream. Mostly he has been ignored. But it is hard to ignore a man with a cousin in the White House. Tonight was payback for all those years of stupid jokes (?Funnye, you don?t look Jewish?), insulting questions and long, wondering stares. Funnye was finally being given the stage at a high-profile Jewish event. ?My Broadway debut,? he said, without evident irony, as he prepared to go on. ?Been a long time getting here, but I?m ready.? *Capers C. Funnye Jr.* was born in South Carolina in 1952 and raised on the South Side of Chicago. His paternal relatives are Gullahs from the barrier islands off Charleston, S.C. The Gullah community has retained many of its original African customs and much of its ancestral language. On his first visit to Nigeria, in 2001, Funnye was delighted to discover that variations of his family name are common in Africa. On his maternal side, he is a Robinson. His mother, Verdelle, was the sister of Fraser Robinson Jr. ? Michelle Obama?s grandfather. That makes Funnye and Michelle Obama first cousins, once removed. And not that removed, really. ?Our families were very close,? Funnye says. ?All through my childhood, our families were in and out of each other?s houses, celebrating holidays together, that kind of thing.? As kids, Funnye and Michelle Obama weren?t peers (he was nearly 12 years older), but they connected in earnest years later, in 1992, at her wedding, and a friendship developed. The Obamas, like Funnye, were involved in community organizing in Chicago, and they saw one another often, socially and professionally. It didn?t surprise Funnye, he told me, that when he and Mary went to Washington to attend Obama?s inaugural ceremony after Funnye?s speech in New York, they were in the good seats, near Oprah Winfreyand Steven Spielberg. Family is family. Funnye was not always Jewish. When he went off to college at Howard University in 1970, he was the conventionally Christian son of upwardly striving parents. But he was moved by the radicalized atmosphere of the day. Black nationalism, Afrocentrism and cultural separatism were in vogue, and Funnye came to see Christianity as an alien religion imposed on blacks by white slave masters. ?I was never an atheist,? he told me. ?I just wanted to find the right way to worship him.? During a summer job in Chicago, some friends introduced Funnye to Rabbi Robert Devine, the spiritual leader of the House of Israel Congregation. Devine preached that Africans were the true descendants of the biblical Hebrews, and that Jesus, the Messiah, was a black man. The message appealed to Funnye. Devine baptized him in a public swimming pool, and Funnye entered the complicated world of black American Jewry. Estimates of how many black Jews there are in the United States range widely. It all depends on who is doing the counting and what criteria are being used. There are Jews who happen to be black: kids adopted by white Jewish families, for example, or the offspring of mixed parents. (Orthodox Judaism recognizes as Jewish the offspring of only Jewish mothers; Reform, the largest American denomination, accepts patrilineal as well as matrilineal descent.) There are also African-Americans who have been converted to various forms of Judaism, as well as Jews of Ethiopian origin who immigrated to Israel and subsequently moved to America. Probably no more than 2 percent of the American Jewish community is made up of black Jews. There have been African-Americans with blood ties to white Jews since at least the early 19th century. Among them was Julia Ann Isaacs, the daughter of a white Jewish man, David Isaacs, and a free black woman, Nancy Ann West. In 1832 Julia married Eston Hemings, the son of Sally Hemingsand ? more than likely ? Thomas Jefferson. Another was Francis Cardozo, a freeborn black man of Jewish descent (and a distant relative of the Supreme CourtJustice Benjamin Cardozo), who during Reconstruction served as secretary of state and treasurer of South Carolina. But in almost no such early cases did the offspring of black-Jewish unions identify themselves as Jewish. ** *Enlarge This Image* * * *Alec Soth/Magnum, for The New York Times* Shabbat services for the Beth Shalom B?nai Zaken Ethiopian Hebrew Congregation and some visitors. Black Judaism as a self-conscious religious identity arrived in America in Lawrence, Kan., in 1896. A charismatic Baptist named William Saunders Crowdy established a black congregation called the Church of God and Saints of Christ, where he preached that Africans were the true descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Didn?t the Bible tell that Moses married a black-skinned woman? he asked. And that King Solomon bestowed on the queen of Sheba, an Ethiopian, ?all her desire?? One implication of Crowdy?s doctrine was that blacks were God?s chosen people. This might have been a hanging offense in Kansas at the time had white people been aware of it, which they mostly weren?t. The denomination practiced an eclectic, ?roll your own? brand of religion that combined beliefs and practices of the Old and New Testaments. Crowdy?s tabernacles practiced male infant circumcision, observed Saturday as the Sabbath, celebrated Passoverand other Jewish holidays ? but venerated Jesus Christ. In the aftermath of the Civil War, Crowdy?s faith offered freed slaves and their offspring something that mainstream Christianity did not: a grand historical identity and a distinctively black mode of religious expression. This proved to be a potent mix. Since the formation of the Church of God and Saints of Christ, there have been more than 200 congregations in the United States, Africa and the Caribbean. Today the group still has more than 50 affiliated congregations. In addition, a great many other ?messianic? Jewish houses of worship have flourished, including Rabbi Robert Devine?s congregation, where Funnye first came to regard himself as a Black Jew. ?When I joined Rabbi Devine?s shul, I felt less like I was converting to Judaism than reverting,? Funnye recalls. ?Going back to something.? For a few years after leaving Howard, as he worked a series of jobs in Chicago, Funnye found Devine?s conception of Judaism to be rewarding. But he eventually became uncomfortable with the hybrid nature of Devine?s theology. As his interest in Judaism deepened, Funnye was increasingly drawn to the more conventional teachings of a black, Brooklyn-based rabbi named Levi Ben Levy, the spiritual leader of the Hebrew Israelite movement. ?He taught me that real Judaism isn?t mixed in with Christianity,? Funnye says. He studied with Levy for five years, long distance from Chicago; the curriculum included Biblical Hebrew, liturgy, standard rabbinic texts and Jewish history from the perspective of African originalism. In 1985, Levy ordained Funnye as a rabbi, although no mainstream denomination accepted the title or Levy?s right to confer it. Very few white rabbis were even aware of the existence of the Hebrew Israelites. The movement was established in the early 20th century by Wentworth Matthew, a charismatic figure who arrived in Harlem at the end of World War I, claiming to be from Africa, although he was more likely born in St. Kitts. Matthew proclaimed himself a rabbi and founded a congregation in New York called the Commandment Keepers. He was influenced by the idea that blacks were the original Hebrews; but unlike William Saunders Crowdy, who lived in rural Kansas, Matthew modeled his congregation on the white Judaism he saw around him in New York. He called his a storefront a shul, introduced a standard Hebrew prayer book and weekly Sabbath Torah readings, discouraged excessive shows of emotion during worship, insisted on separate seating for women and men and instituted a modified version of kosher dietary laws. He also, and crucially, denied the divinity of Jesus and the truth of the New Testament. As Matthew?s group grew, it became far more ?orthodox? in its Jewish ritual and code of conduct than the average Reform temple. Still, Matthew held some highly unorthodox beliefs. Chief among them was the doctrine that many white Jews are descended not from the ancient Israelites but from the Khazars, a tribe of Turkic nomads who, according to legend, converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth century. Mainstream scholars say there is no historical evidence for such a claim, but it remains an article of faith for many Black Jews. (The claim is also a staple of anti-Israel rhetoric, a fact that Funnye, who like most Black Jews supports Israel, says makes him uneasy.) Matthew didn?t express animosity toward white Jews. On the contrary, he saw and appreciated them as temporary placeholders, people who kept the faith of Israel going while the Black Jews were lost in bondage. He sought to make common cause with and be included in the wider Jewish community: twice he applied for membership to the mainstream New York Board of Rabbis, but he was turned down. The Orthodox rabbis were flabbergasted that any gentile, black or white, would have the chutzpah to declare himself to be a Jew, let alone a rabbi. Some of the more liberal rabbis were intrigued by the Hebrew Israelites but were not willing to fully embrace them as fellow Jews. For Matthew and his followers, the disappointment was acute. ?Rabbi Matthew concluded that black Jews would never be fully accepted by white Jews, and certainly not if they insisted on maintaining a black identity and independent congregations,? Sholomo Ben Levy, the rabbi of the Black Jewish Beth Elohim Hebrew Congregation in Queens, wrote in an article published by the Hebrew Israelites. ?Since his death in 1973, there has been virtually no dialog [sic] between white and black Jews in America.? It has become the mission of Capers Funnye to start that dialogue. ?I believe in building bridges,? he told me as we sat in his office at the Beth Shalom synagogue in Chicago, a week and a half after his Martin Luther King Day speech in New York. ?That?s why speaking at the synagogue was so important to me.? ?Has Mary forgiven you?? I asked. Funnye nodded. ?We drove down to D.C. and made one of the balls the next day,? he said. ?And she got to snap a picture of Denzel Washington, so everything is more or less cool.? At the King Day celebration in New York, the musician Joshua Nelson proved a hard act to follow; Funnye came across as stiff and cautious, expressing measured thoughts about Jewish solidarity, the brotherhood of man and the need for peace in the Holy Land. But here in his study, surrounded by books and family pictures, he seemed far more at ease. The Sabbath was only an hour away, and people kept busting into the room ? kids who wanted to show off their grades; an assistant rabbi who wanted a word about the youth group; ladies of the Nashe Or (?Women of Light?) Sisterhood who wanted to know what time exactly the communal meal should be served. Funnye handled it all in good spirits. He is not only the chief rabbi of the congregation, which, in various permutations, has been around 90 years; he is also its C.E.O., spiritual leader, head social director, senior teacher and unofficial cantor. Beth Shalom, which he joined as an assistant rabbi in 1985, has about 200 members, making it the largest of the six American synagogues affiliated with the International Israelite Board of Rabbis (the organization that serves the Hebrew Israelites), and Funnye is the Israelites? only full-time rabbi. A majority of his congregation are converts to Judaism, although a large number are second- or third-generation Black Jews. (People often confuse Funnye?s congregation with that of Ben Ammi Carter, a fellow black Chicagoan, who established a community of followers in Israel in 1969. Funnye, who says there is no similarity between their theologies, is at pains to differentiate the two.) Early in his rabbinical career, Funnye says, he realized that his Jewish credentials were too limited and exotic for the kind of outreach efforts that he wanted to do. So he enrolled at the mainstream Spertus Institute of Jewish Studies in Chicago, where he received a bachelor?s degree in Judaic Studies. And in 1985 he underwent a second conversion, this one certified by a Conservative rabbinical court. Before he took this step, he consulted with his earlier mentor, Rabbi Levy; Funnye feared insulting other Black Jews. ?I didn?t want anyone to interpret my conversion as meaning I thought they weren?t Jewish enough,? he told me. But he received Levy?s blessing. ?I explained that if I was going to do the kind of outreach I wanted, European Jews had to feel that I was their brother,? Funnye said. ?But I?m still a Black Israelite. A halakhic conversion? ? one in accordance with traditional Jewish law ? ?wasn?t going to take away any of my blackness.? Matthew didn?t express animosity toward white Jews. On the contrary, he saw and appreciated them as temporary placeholders, people who kept the faith of Israel going while the Black Jews were lost in bondage. He sought to make common cause with and be included in the wider Jewish community: twice he applied for membership to After his second conversion, Funnye taught Hebrew and Jewish subjects at Chicago-area congregations and worked for the Jewish Council on Urban Affairs, a group dedicated to fighting poverty, racism and anti-Semitism in the city. He sent his four children to Jewish day schools, quietly built his congregation and got to know the leaders of the white Jewish community. In 1997, he did what his mentors had all failed to do (and no Hebrew Israelite rabbi has since done): he became a member of the local Board of Rabbis. Rabbi Michael Balinsky, the executive vice president of the Chicago Board, says Funnye makes a conscientious effort ?to play an active role in the mainstream Jewish community without losing his Black Hebrew tradition. He?s taken a leadership role for the Jewish community on civil rights issues and outreach to Hispanics and Muslims.? In January, Beth Shalom organized a community celebration with members of the Inner-City Muslim Action Network, a social-justice organization in Chicago headed by a Palestinian -American activist named Rami Nashashibi. Funnye has also worked to improve Chicago?s historically strained relations between its black and Jewish communities. In conversations with white Jews, he has defended the Rev. Jesse Jackson, whom he admires, and he encourages dialogue with Louis Farrakhan, the head of the Nation of Islam, whom he counts as a friend. ?I don?t agree with everything the man says or thinks,? Funnye said of Farrakhan. ?I?m a Jew, after all. But you need to talk. Right now I?m trying to put together a group of Chicago rabbis for a meeting with Minister Farrakhan.? ?How?s it going?? I asked. ?Two so far,? he said. ?But I?m still working on it.? Before sundown that night, Funnye joined about 60 congregants in the social hall for Friday-night blessings and a fried-fish-and-spaghetti dinner. In 2004, Beth Shalom bought its current building, on South Kedzie Avenue, on Chicago?s South Side, from a rapidly declining congregation of Lithuanian Jews. It has a tan brick exterior and a layout common to American synagogues circa 1955; it is a virtual twin of the temple in Michigan that I attended growing up. The money for the building came mostly from tithes and contributions, and raising it was a stretch. ?The members here are working people, teachers, city workers, mostly middle class,? Funnye said. ?We don?t have any billionaire philanthropists, like the Bronfmans or the Crowns. The only rich black Jew I ever heard about was Sammy Davis Jr., and he?s dead. Besides, he was Reform.? After the dinner, Funnye chanted the grace and then reassembled his flock in a large classroom for evening prayers and a Torah lesson. The week?s portion happened to be the story of the Exodus, and Funnye used it to illustrate the virtue of interdependence. ?Think about it,? he said. ?God told Moses to talk to Pharaoh, but Moses stuttered, right? I mean he stuh-stuh-stuh-stuttered. That?s what they called it back then. Nowadays he?d get called a rapper.? This got a laugh. A woman sitting nearby said, ?Teach the Torah, rabbi.? Funnye went on: ?Moses stuttered so bad until he had to bring in his brother Aaron, who was a Cohen, a priest, to talk for him. And you know no priest is going to stutter, right?? This got another laugh, and Funnye closed in on his moral ? the importance of people from different backgrounds sharing the benefits of their respective upbringings. ?I mean, hey, you grew up in the suburbs, maybe you can help me with something,? he said. ?Or if you came up on 59th Street ? some of y?all know what I?m talking about ? so I know some things that you just don?t know. We can help each other.? The congregation applauded and called out in agreement. This wasn?t the button-down Funnye who spoke at Stephen Wise in New York; here he was a signifying South Side Chicago rabbi. A few years ago, before Beth Shalom bought its new synagogue, its members would meet in a small building on a blighted street in Chicago. A Latino gang worked one corner of the block, and a black gang worked the other. ?Soon as we got there, somebody marked up the building with graffiti,? Funnye told me. ?I went to both gangs and told them: ?This is a synagogue, with elders and children. I don?t care what business you do during the week, but from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown you need to be respectful.? I let them know that I am a man of peace but I?m not a pacifist and I had men in the congregation, so if we had a problem we?d deal with it ourselves, not call in the police until later.? I was surprised to hear that the speech worked. ?And the gangs fell into line, just like that?? Funnye chuckled. ?Well, I also had a word with some brothers I met doing prison counseling, and they may have intervened. I put out word when we moved here too. I don?t get in people?s business, but I won?t allow anyone to disrespect our synagogue.? Because of Funnye?s connection to the Obamas, his community work has occasionally been a source of political interest. Between 1997 and 2002, Funnye served as the executive director of Blue Gargoyle, a nonprofit social-services agency that offers, among other things, adult-literacy and alternative-education programs. Blue Gargoyle was in Barack Obama?s district when he was an Illinois state senator, and during Funnye?s tenure, Obama earmarked a total of $75,000 for the organization. The issue of the earmarks and the family connection was raised by some of Obama?s opponents during the 2008 presidential campaign, but it didn?t gain traction; evidently the disbursements were aboveboard. Funnye also worked with Michelle Obama in her capacity as executive director for community affairs for the University of ChicagoHospitals, where she focused on health issues affecting young people. Funnye told me that the only money Blue Gargoyle received from the university was a $5,000 grant for a tutoring program, and that the money did not come through Michelle Obama?s office at the hospital. At the start of the 2008 presidential primary season, Funnye contributed a few hundred dollars to the Obama campaign but didn?t publicly endorse Obama, and he avoided mentioning the family connection. ?I was afraid it might do him harm in the Orthodox community,? he told me. ?I believe they were the ones putting out stories about Barack being a secret Muslim and so on. They could have made me out to be a friend of Farrakhan?s or a cult leader or who knows what.? Obama apparently wasn?t worried by the association. During the Democratic primaries, as he came under repeated attack for being insufficiently pro-Israel, Obama reached out to Funnye, by way of Mary?s brother Frank White, the Obama fund-raiser. White told me that Obama encouraged him to ?tell Capers to get the word out that I?ve got a rabbi in my family.? Funnye acknowledges getting the message. Before long, The Forward, the Jewish weekly, ran an article on Obama?s rabbi, and the news spread like low-fat cream cheese from Boca Raton to Brooklyn. Funnye?s association with Obama probably didn?t reassure fervent Zionists ? the rabbi is considerably to the left of Obama on Middle East policy ? but it didn?t seem to hurt either. The connection to Obama certainly didn?t hurt Funnye. ?I got no blowback from the Orthodox at all,? he said. ?In fact, I started getting phone calls from a couple Hasidic rabbis in Israel who want to get together.? There is no black Jewish neighborhood in Chicago. When they congregate on the Sabbath, the Hebrew Israelites come from all areas of the city, and they tend to spend the entire day in shul. The lyrics to the songs they sing are the same as the ones heard in any traditional synagogue, but the music is different. Hebrew prayers are sung in unison in something resembling call and response. A gospel-like band accompanies the choir?s weekly performance of ?Lift Every Voice and Sing.? During the Torah procession the congregation sings, ?We?re marching to Zion, beautiful, beautiful Zion.? On one of the days I was there, in early February, I was the only white Jew in the shul, and an old guy in front of me kept turning around and showing me the right page. There?s a nudnik like him in every shul I?ve ever been to. I forgave him, though, during the Torah service, when a young man faltered over the blessings and looked mortified. ?Not your fault, young man,? the nudnik said. ?The fire of the Torah burns so hot to where sometimes it just confuses your mind.? At the end of services, I met a young woman named Tamar, who said her children are the only black Jews enrolled at the Akiba-Schechter Jewish Day School. ?Things have been a little tricky for them at school since Obama won,? she told me. ?Why?? I asked. ?Aren?t most of the parents at the Day School Democrats?? ?Yes. They voted for Obama, and their kids are glad he won. But they don?t love Obama the way my children do. They aren?t thrilled in the same way.? ?So?? ?My kids are wondering, If their classmates and teachers figure out how personal this is for them, will they be considered more black and less Jewish?? When I told Funnye the story he chuckled but said he wasn?t surprised. Being a black Jew in America can be a trying experience, even when white Jews are well intentioned. One morning I went with Funnye to a suburban Conservative congregation, where he was to deliver another Martin Luther King speech. We sat at the head table. I ate bagels and lox while Funnye chatted with a convert to Judaism. At the end of the meal the host rabbi stood and began chanting the blessing after food. When he saw that Funnye wasn?t singing along, the rabbi pointed to the appropriate words. He didn?t realize that Funnye wasn?t praying because he was still eating. Another nudnik. On Inauguration Day, Capers and Mary Funnye drove down from New York and made it to Washington in time for a quick shower. Then they boarded a bus for Obama-family relatives that drove them from venue to venue throughout the day. Over lunch at the Old Executive Office building, Funnye recounted, he bonded with Obama?s Kenyan grandmother and aunt and exchanged business cards with the president?s Kenyan half-brother. ?I get to Africa from time to time,? Funnye said. That was an understatement. Funnye heads the Pan-African Jewish Alliance, a group established to help Africans join and feel more included in the mainstream Jewish community. For its founders ? Gary Tobin, the head of the Institute for Jewish and Community Research in San Francisco, and his wife, Diane ? the motivation is in part demographic. Discovering or creating millions of Jewish Africans (as well as opening the community in the United States to African converts and to African-Americans with Jewish roots) would, the Tobins say, greatly strengthen what they see as a stagnant population. Funnye?s motive is more spiritual. As a Hebrew Israelite rabbi he maintains that many Africans were originally Jewish. Some, like the Lemba of South Africa, claim direct descent from the Jews of the Bible. There is considerable resistance to this notion, but many leading scholars take it seriously. ?I have no problem believing that the Lemba of South Africa are descended from Jews,? says Jonathan Schorsch, an assistant professor of Jewish studies at Columbia University. ?Jews are ethnically and biologically mixed. It just makes sense that this mixing took place in Africa as well as other places.? Funnye?s closest connection is to the Ibos, a tribe in Nigeria, some of whose members describe themselves as Jews. Beth Shalom has a sister synagogue there, and Funnye travels back and forth. For all practical purposes, he is the chief rabbi of Nigeria, and he has plans to reunite the Ibos eventually with the worldwide Jewish people through formal conversion. Before he gets to Africa, though, Funnye has other commitments. A French organization recently flew him to Paris for a Martin Luther King event. He now finds himself flooded with invitations to speak at big Jewish congregations in California, Florida and Long Island. Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, the executive vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis, is planning a meeting for Funnye with his colleagues. I asked Potasnik if the organization would be willing to reconsider membership for the Hebrew Israelite rabbis. ?We?d entertain an application,? he said. ?I?d love to see the test case.? Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the head of the Reform Movement, is, like Potasnik, ready to consider new possibilities. ?The fact that men and women sit separately in the Israelite congregations might be a problem for us on gender-equality grounds,? he told me. ?But race would certainly be no problem for us.? A few years ago, Funnye considered applying for membership to the Union of Reform Jews. He shelved the idea when his congregants objected on the grounds that the white congregation was not observant enough. ?Some of their rabbis perform intermarriages,? Funnye explains, ?so some of our people were uncomfortable. But sometimes I think it would be good to be part of a larger movement. Maybe we?ll revisit the subject.? Funnye hasn?t built all his bridges yet, let alone crossed them, but the progress he has seen ? both as a black Jew and as a black American ? has mellowed him. ?You know, as a young man I was angry about the way we were laughed at and ignored,? he said. ?I sometimes went down to the kosher meat market here in Chicago, put my face right up in the face of one of the Orthodox rabbis and yelled, ?I ain?t never seen no white Jews before!? I was so hurt I became obtuse and bitter. But I don?t feel that way anymore.? He paused. ?There?s no need to shout. People are ready for a dialogue, to talk and to listen.? *Zev Chafets is a frequent contributor to the magazine. His most recent article was about Rush Limbaugh.* *More Articles in Magazine ?* * A version of this article appeared in print on April 5, 2009, on page MM34 of the New York edition. * ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/b4232bfb/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 5 21:35:45 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 02:35:45 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! In-Reply-To: <012101c9b64a$eca1c670$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <253119.91990.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <012101c9b64a$eca1c670$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <040620090235.5736.49D96A7F000D27650000166822243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Dick, Sorry, but I gotta disagree with ya here. Seems to me that G-d's Torah existed from the very beginning and it has always applied to all mankind. Unfortunately, also from the beginning, man has chosen to go his own way. So I would say if mankind had done what we were supposed to do from the beginning, there would have been no need for a Chosen People. It also seems to me that Israel's being chosen was not so much a distiction of privledge as it is one of responsibility. They were chosen to bring G-d's light to the world, not to keep it for themselves. So it seems to me that Israel is to bring what G-d gave them back to all of mankind that return to Him. When I say that I mean written Torah and all ten words, not 4 and not 7. I make that clarification because I want to be clear. I recently had a discussion with Hez on this list about Oral Torah and I see no need for a redux. I am speaking about written Torah. So given that, it should be clear that I am not speaking about the writings of the Rabbi's. While I respect them very much and I am learning much from them that makes understanding written Torah much richer, I consider them man's words. In my understanding, written Torah is about the way of life we are supposed have led all along in which the keystone is a deepening relationship with our Creator. It is G-d's intention for all of His treasure, His children, to live in accordance with His instruction, not pick and choose which instructions we follow by reason of labels. Israel belongs to G-d because He chose them for His own name's sake for a specific purpose, G-d does not belong to Israel, He belongs to everyone who turns to Him. On a related topic, I have been having a difficult time with one of your previous comments; When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. What do you mean by "stealing from the Jews what G-d has given them"? If you are speaking about Torah, that makes no sense. How can one steal from a steward that which the owner has commanded him to share freely? The answer to the question about "speak unto the children of Israel" is that there were many "strangers" who attached themselves to Israel who were not Jews because they turned to HaShem and chose to follow His ways. They were considered part of the assembly. I think something similar is happening today, and it's a good thing, it means the light of Israel still shines, it is acually the whole point as far as I can see. And no, I'm sorry, with all due respect, conversion is not the answer. Torah is good enough for me, maybe that will change in the future, I don't know. But this is not about converting to a religion, this is about returning to G-d. If you are speaking about stealing tradions and culture, I agree. But that does not describe anyone I have met on this list. There are those opportunists out there who will steal anything that even looks like it might turn a profit, that will never change until Mashiach comes. But those are not the ones you want converting to Judiasm, I assure you. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Dick L" : -------------- Hi Susie !! Maybe I should say that the Laws are diff to the Jews and for the Goy, or the believer of the G-d of Israel. When Hashem seperated Israel from the World, or Nations, they certainly could not have the same rules. "Or" if every gentile was the same as the Jew there would be no need of a chosen People??? The Torah is Eternal, but to each there own place. Even Ye Shua said " Heaven and earth may pass away, but my Torah will never pass away". It is only my outlook or understanding, as I try to understand his way. Dick L Subject: Hello! Hi Dick, In response to this: I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? I know that a lot of people believe this. For most of my life I was taught and believed that the ways of G-d were now different for all mankind let alone a G-d who had different ways for the Jew vs. the Gentile. Now for me what a relief and comfort that the Torah is eternal, one , and for all mankind. Susie --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:43 AM I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/e5f20019/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 5 22:15:27 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:15:27 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> <855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> I'll do my best, I'm only marginal myself! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Hi Marvin, You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it meaningful. I wrote the translation at the bottom of my email. I will try if at all possible to transliterate it if I have time before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for time right now. Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah and we can try to sing it together, how's that sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have turned me into a really good singer! Take care my friend, Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde wrote: Thanks Hanoch, I don?t know the language yet?. But I still get my soul stirred listening to this beautiful music?? just think! One day when we are all gather in Jerusalem! Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/c33f2e3f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 5 22:20:59 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 20:20:59 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> <855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com> <040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> Oh John, you're selling yourself short! Working with me though, should be quite the challenge for you - I've got a persona that *wants *to be a Rock Star. The only problem - no musical talent; at all. Oh, and I still haven't adjusted to not being 19 for a while..... We can only go *up* from there, bro! :-) * Hanoch * On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 8:15 PM, wrote: > I'll do my best, I'm only marginal myself! > > ;-{)} > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : > -------------- > > Hi Marvin, > > You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it meaningful. I wrote the > translation at the bottom of my email. I will try if at all possible to > transliterate it if I have time before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for > time right now. > > Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah and we can try to sing it > together, how's that sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have turned me > into a really good singer! > > Take care my friend, > * Hanoch > * > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde wrote: > >> Thanks Hanoch, >> >> >> >> I don?t know the language yet?. But I still get my soul stirred >> listening to this beautiful music?? just think! One day when we are all >> gather in Jerusalem! >> >> >> >> Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? >> >> >> >> marvin >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young >> *Sent:* Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody >> >> >> >> Shalom L'Kulam, >> >> >> >> As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might >> like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a >> live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read >> shortly after the 4 Questions. >> >> Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel >> - Live in Caesaria >> >> >> >> 'V'hi Sheamda..' "*It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. *For >> not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation >> they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, >> rescues us from their hand." >> >> >> >> Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... >> >> >> >> Chag Sameach, >> >> * Hanoch* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/fcf9f169/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Apr 5 22:28:55 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James D. Tabor) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 23:28:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav Message-ID: (Written yesterday from Turks & Caicos Islands, sending today, Sunday JDT) Today's Torah reading (Tzav Lev 6:1-8:36 [6:8 in Christian Bibles]) has to do with all the details of the various offerings, including the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, and the offering of "well-being," as well as the offerings connected to the installation of Aron and his sons as messiahs. There is little to nothing in the reading, at the P'shat or "literal" level at least, to instruct or inspire in what is elsewhere in the Torah introduced as the "Way of YHVH" with its emphasis on justice and righteousness (mishpat & tzedekah). I know there are many who have a great deal of interest in these offerings and their details, and doubtless there are principles regarding intentional and unintentional errors, ritual purity, and "covering," but I for one find the "weightier matters of Torah" more of a draw. Amazingly, I think the ancient rabbis who formulated the divisions of our Parashah (Torah portions), with their readings from the Prophets, called Haftarah, share my sentiments in this regard. These supplemental readings often serve as a kind of "commentary" on the Torah readings, offering additional insight. It is surely quite striking that for the Torah reading Tzav they choseJeremiah 7:21-8:3 & 9:22-23!! Take a look if that passage does not ring a bell. Jeremiah, writing 40 years before the destruction of the great Temple of Solomon, in which the people of Judah took such confidence and over which they felt such security. He taunts them to sacrifice more and more, to add to their sacrifices, to keep it up, so to speak...with an obvious note of sarcasm. But then Jeremiah declares in v. 22: "For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you.'" And indeed, in today's Torah reading, in Lev 7:37 we indeed read: "These are the Torah of the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, etc. which YHVH commanded Moses on Mount Sinai when he commanded the people to bring their offerings. There is a specific chronology here revealed. The book of Leviticus, and the latter part of Exodus, where the offerings are introduced, are AFTER the Golden Calf incident, when the people were determined to turn to such ways of sacrifice, much like their pagan neighbors around the area, but well into the second year after the Exodus. See the chronology of Exodus 40:1 and compare it with Numbers 1:1. The book of Leviticus falls in that MONTH in between, during the SECOND year after the revelation at Sinai. It seems clear to me that Jeremiah is reminding the Judeans who so trusted in the Temple, that YHVH never originally wanted or intended sacrifice or Temple...but these things were "added" to the Ten Words and their basic revelation that had been completed the first months at Sinai. It was intended originally to be a "covenant of the heart," as Exodus 19-24 makes clear. The tent of meeting is something different, and is not implicitly connected to sacrifices, certainly not originally. Rather it is a communications HQ between YHVH and Moses. Picture it, in all its rugged rustic beauty, with the outer room smelling of fresh bread, the glow of the menorah, and the smell of insense...and the inner room with the golden chest containing the tablets with the very Ten Words. If anything is ever "rebuilt" or restored, may it be that "house of prayer for all peoples," not a center for "hurting and destroying on the holy mountain." And that reminds one of the words used by Jeremiah in 31:31 following when he envisions a NEW COVENANT with both Houses of Israel--a relationship that will be like a faithful marriage, based on internal love and devotion, with the Torah in the heart, and the "knowledge" of YHVH being internalized. It is a long journey from Exodus One to Exodus Two, but what was intended at the first is surely to be realized at the Second. All the Prophets picture a restored and "converted" Israel that walk by the Spirit, have the Torah in the heart, and Love YHVH and their fellow humans first and foremost! The good news is that we do not have to wait to experience this. Any individual who now desires to make covenant with Yehovah, based on these principles, is surely promised a name "better than sons and daughters." I find it rather amazing that the Rabbis so wisely included this reading from Jeremiah. It is a kind of "wink" to the reader, and a signification of things to come, right from the depths of Leviticus, in a Parasha, which perhaps more than any other, epitomizes the system of offerings and sacrifices that Israel began to take up that second year at Sinai. Shabbat Shalom to all, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/b8b53fb2/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 5 22:39:54 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:39:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040620090339.2691.49D9798A000C712400000A8322243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Beautiful Hanoch. We'll have to work on it. I'll see if I can find the music. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/5f731d2f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 5 22:42:44 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:42:44 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A Pesah Contemplation In-Reply-To: <855590370904050821y2d3a09bdo3c1e64e3a12a8f11@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904050821y2d3a09bdo3c1e64e3a12a8f11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040620090342.6653.49D97A330003F383000019FD22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein! -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Hey Melanie - Yeah, when it comes to the web, at least - I DO know the best places to hang out - LOL The section you highlighted also spoke LOUDLY to me. Sometimes, in groups like these (this list, for instance...), there's a tendency for some, once someone has found "THE Truth" - they feel compelled to hammer it into everyone else's head that THEIRS was THE WAY. The reality is that we all DO share some of the essentials, but it is HaShem that is guiding each of our individual paths, understanding, experiences, challenges and direction. I guess you can think of it as a recipe, some need a little more pepper, others a little more garlic....and like it or not, some of us are indeed called to do more of something then some others. It's not a reflection on anyone, good OR bad. It just 'is, as it is..' I posted that article (and about a dozen other things....) because I think many people can relate to it on many different levels. It seems to have SO much to say to everyone. However, what it doesn't say, with your permission, I can borrow from you: "So maybe we should pay more attention to our own path and walk, but it is still important to watch out for the others on the path in front, beside or behind us, and maybe it makes sense to say - hey what do you see, can you tell me, describe it to me, point out the stony places, the cracks and also the beautiful hidden mysteries you notice, the bird singing in the tree I might not have noticed over the sound of my own footseps, the small yellow flower nestled at the roots of the ochre coloured tree, the child running just ahead chasing the dandelion fluff blowing away from him and ruffled by HaShems gentle cooling breeze. Perhaps if we did this with a gentle joy and acceptance of our own path intersecting as it does with all the others then we would get a lot further on that journey each day than we do now." Amazing point Melanie...something for us to strive for each, and every day. Toda..... Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:58 AM, wrote: Hanoch, Yet again thank you for posting something that talks so strongly to the heart and mind - you know all the good places to hang out and get good stuff - I bet you know all the good coffee shops around too!! In many ways, with some that has been going on in the last few days, this really seems to speak - or at least it does to me. The bit that after reading all of it that my mind kept coming back to and had held onto the most was this section: Life is a long road and only Heaven knows the right course through it. That which is the right course for one may very well be the wrong course for another. One's course through life is highly subjective. The path which one follows is never the exact same path followed by another. Therefore, only with guidance from Heaven will one find one's true path. Without the guidance of Heaven one will walk through life lost and forever searching for that place which only the Soul within can recognize as home. Seems to me, as Ariel Bar Tzadok says, that Torah is the answer, the guidance, the reflective mirror that we can gaze on to see what lies behind our lives, behind the here and now and to catch the glimpses of the others on the path with us, but in the end it is up to us with this reflective guidance and revelation from HaShem to choose to walk the right path for ourselves. That is the point as well, truly we all may be walking a common footpath but what we notice along the way is different to each of us because each of is different and HaShems plans and needs for each of us is different, This is not to be underestimated or overlooked and we should not consider ourselves, any of us, as more something, er even less something, than others just because HaShem has put us in one place or another, or chosen some of us for more special roles or such, or we might be more 'Chosen', to do this is to not understand HaShem it seems to me but to loose sight of the fact that he created all and yes even calls all! (not that I think I do understand HaShem, just need to clarify this - for who can understand the mind and ways of HaShem, great and mighty, kind and compassionate, ruler of all - but I think we can get glimpses of His most amazingness). So maybe we should pay more attention to our own path and walk, but it is still important to watch out for the others on the path in front, beside or behind us, and maybe it makes sense to say - hey what do you see, can you tell me, describe it to me, point out the stony places, the cracks and also the beautiful hidden mysteries you notice, the bird singing in the tree I might not have noticed over the sound of my own footseps, the small yellow flower nestled at the roots of the ochre coloured tree, the child running just ahead chasing the dandelion fluff blowing away from him and ruffled by HaShems gentle cooling breeze. Perhaps if we did this with a gentle joy and acceptance of our own path intersecting as it does with all the others then we would get a lot further on that journey each day than we do now. Ok thems me thoughts! Usual rules apply - these are just my thoughts, they might be wrong and misguided as much as right and feel free to critique, complement or consign to the bin - but please know that no insult or offense is ever intended ingeneral or to any one. Best Melanie _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/e3a96c44/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 5 22:55:48 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:55:48 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com><855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com><040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <040620090355.20985.49D97D430002FF40000051F922243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Sounds like the challenge of the spies. What do we do with what we find out? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Oh John, you're selling yourself short! Working with me though, should be quite the challenge for you - I've got a persona that wants to be a Rock Star. The only problem - no musical talent; at all. Oh, and I still haven't adjusted to not being 19 for a while..... We can only go up from there, bro! :-) Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 8:15 PM, wrote: I'll do my best, I'm only marginal myself! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Hi Marvin, You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it meaningful. I wrote the translation at the bottom of my email. I will try if at all possible to transliterate it if I have time before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for time right now. Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah and we can try to sing it together, how's that sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have turned me into a really good singer! Take care my friend, Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde wrote: Thanks Hanoch, I don?t know the language yet?. But I still get my soul stirred listening to this beautiful music?? just think! One day when we are all gather in Jerusalem! Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/bd57d7b1/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Apr 6 01:12:01 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 23:12:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> <855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com> <040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200904060611.n366Bxur004548@mail383c25.carrierzone.com> Hanoch, >Thanks for this excellent, soul stirring song. > The melody embodies and carries the fiery hope > in the soul of a people, Israel! > This is what our people need. It has come to > us just in time, Baruch Hashem!! > Onward and Forward! Steve >-------------- Original message from Hanoch >Young <youngbarzel at gmail.com>: -------------- > >Hi Marvin, > > You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it > meaningful. I wrote the translation at the > bottom of my email. I will try if at all > possible to transliterate it if I have time > before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for time right now. > > Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah > and we can try to sing it together, how's that > sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have > turned me into a really good singer! > > Take care my friend, > Hanoch > >On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde ><mhyde7 at tds.net> wrote: > >Thanks Hanoch, > > > >I don?t know the language yet . But I still >get my soul stirred listening to this beautiful >music just think! One day when we are all gather in Jerusalem! > > > >Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? > > > >marvin > > > >---------- >From: >dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young >Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody > > > >Shalom L'Kulam, > > > > As the preparation for Pesah intensifies > (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a > beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link > below is a live version of a gorgeous version > of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. > >Click >here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov >Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria > > > > 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood > by our fathers and us. For not only one has > risen against us to annihilate us, but in every > generation they rise against us to annihilate > us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." > > > > Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... > > > > Chag Sameach, > > Hanoch > >_______________________________________________ > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090405/8db18661/attachment.html From MELA91E at aol.com Mon Apr 6 04:45:03 2009 From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 05:45:03 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] No prayer at home. Message-ID: I was reading my twitter stream (_http://twitter.com/unicorntreebks_ (http://twitter.com/unicorntreebks) ) and this one came up: _http://ow.ly/29hH_ (http://ow.ly/29hH) , it's a report from Haaretz on how a decision was handed down against group prayer meetings being held in a domestic home in Jerusalem. Now I concede I don't have a clue how thin the walls are and how noisy the services were, and if the walls are thin and it stopped me enjoying my home then I might be upset too, after all I do get really annoyed at the neighbours dogs barking through the morning when it's my day off. But the bit that stood out was the fact that the attorney said he would take action on anywhere they moved! seemingly without there necessarily being any complainants. (of course this could also be biased reporting, I do have to acknowledge that fact too). Now that to me seems like hounding and persecution and I don't like that idea. Here in the UK there is a lot of anti-religious government sanctioned and supported polemic as well - it concerns me greatly, but it really does seem to be a world wide thing indeed judging from this. New World Order indeed perhaps, and not the cool music from the 80's group so named. Strikes me we need more prayer rather than less given this sort of thing. Sorry for interrupting -normal schedules may resume! and hope this post is ok and not too off list - if it is then apologies and let me know. Best Melanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/dffbc028/attachment.html From pandesko at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 06:08:53 2009 From: pandesko at gmail.com (-David.) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 06:08:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! In-Reply-To: <006601c9b54c$d56ef350$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006601c9b54c$d56ef350$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <578fa92a0904060408s1960bf7l67400748f1b44beb@mail.gmail.com> I have been trying to get up to speed by listening to Ross' past Sunday Shul episodes, as well as some episodes on ARBA4. I am really having to re-think Christianity.. do I want to observe the "Religion OF Jesus" as would his Disciples, in their fulfillment of the "great commission." Or do I want to observe the "Religion ABOUT Jesus" so all praise and glory go to Jesus. After all, in Jeremiah, G-d claims to be the Savior, and states there is no other. Months ago, I was checking into simply being a Noachide. But then I read that if a poor person sells himself into bondservice, in Israel, when the Sanhedrin are empowered, that only citizens must be released in the seventh year. The foreigner, hence the Noachide, can remain in bondservice, permanently. (Lev. 25:39~46) Now I see that if I adopt the "Religion OF Jesus," I need to attain full citizenship in Israel (northern kingdom) since as Messiah, Jesus will rule with a "rod of iron." Still, Torah is much more liberal in most areas. Tonight, the news said in a Taliban-controlled area of Pakistan, a woman was beaten 30 times with a rod for the offense of being in public without a male relative. The Taliban said this was a lenient punishment, since the normal would be for her to be stoned. On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Dick L wrote: > *I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or > are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the > Jews??? * > * The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including > torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , > control, control of the masses.* > > *Subject:* Hello! > > Hey Dick, > > I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was > not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another > thought. > > Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles > did not want to give up their Gentile ways? > > Susie > > --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L * wrote: > > From: Dick L > Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM > > When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do > so > many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are > Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what > G-d has giving them. > We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or > the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then > become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L > > > Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in > the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage > disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine > flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! > Paul > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: kim alvarado > > Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 > To: > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/dcb89ccb/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Apr 6 06:40:06 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:40:06 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com><855590370904051511p487e7a6p9f8dd60af2a11eb2@mail.gmail.com><040620090315.2231.49D973CF00003B2D000008B722243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <855590370904052020l27701fa9mb70a2994f75f7e2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41D41E77C1B5477798B14BCC12DDA8A2@marvin> Hanoch, As to the transliteration I was thinking more along the lines of it already being done somewhere on the net, that we could be directed to. I am well aware of your time constraints. Pesah coming up, conference in a few weeks, plus your upcoming trip back home. Sorry about the "No musical talent" , I know what you mean, but at least we still have our good looks! _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 11:21 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Oh John, you're selling yourself short! Working with me though, should be quite the challenge for you - I've got a persona that wants to be a Rock Star. The only problem - no musical talent; at all. Oh, and I still haven't adjusted to not being 19 for a while..... We can only go up from there, bro! :-) Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 8:15 PM, wrote: I'll do my best, I'm only marginal myself! ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Hi Marvin, You're very welcome, I'm glad you found it meaningful. I wrote the translation at the bottom of my email. I will try if at all possible to transliterate it if I have time before Pesah, but I'm really crunched for time right now. Maybe you can come to Israel for next Pesah and we can try to sing it together, how's that sound? :-) By then, John Carlson will have turned me into a really good singer! Take care my friend, Hanoch On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:51 PM, mhyde wrote: Thanks Hanoch, I don't know the language yet.. But I still get my soul stirred listening to this beautiful music.. just think! One day when we are all gather in Jerusalem! Is there a English copy and Hebrew words, for a sign along? marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 1:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/5e5db69c/attachment.html From pandesko at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 06:44:47 2009 From: pandesko at gmail.com (-David.) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 06:44:47 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] No prayer at home. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <578fa92a0904060444t297ecd68q8d8d1b1df5bcada8@mail.gmail.com> Were you able to get the Haaretz article to appear on their webpage? I just searched for it a few times, but the closest I found said, "Last update?-?18:12 04/09/2007 Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip call for ban on public prayer meetings." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/900335.html Since Judah is the obedient son, and Ephraim is the disobendient/prodigal son, I would wonder if the targetted prayer meetings being held were to try to sway people away from worshipping the G-d of Israel. (I tried clicking your 2 links, but neither produced an article about a decision about prayer, for me.) David.B On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:45 AM, wrote: > > I was reading my twitter stream (http://twitter.com/unicorntreebks) and this one came up: http://ow.ly/29hH, > it's a report from Haaretz on how a decision was handed down against group prayer meetings being held in a domestic home in Jerusalem. > From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 6 07:20:03 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:20:03 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" Message-ID: I remember when our Rabbi was teaching us about Judaism, and we were approaching Passover, he said that the last meal of leavened bread is referred to as the last supper, because it is the last supper of leavened bread. You will also remember that Judas "sopped" his bread, which he couldn't have done with matzah. Avigail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/d03ee926/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 07:34:25 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 05:34:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! In-Reply-To: <578fa92a0904060408s1960bf7l67400748f1b44beb@mail.gmail.com> References: <418767.8285.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <006601c9b54c$d56ef350$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <578fa92a0904060408s1960bf7l67400748f1b44beb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904060534q4759a5a0y5fa1cb7af656877@mail.gmail.com> Hi David - Two quick things I wanted to clear up for you, although I sincerely empathize with your spiritual wrestling. 1. NO ONE is in bondservice in modern-day Israel; the current Sanhedrin is NOT empowered (it's barely even noticed), and for reasons too long to describe this morning, is not likely to occur in the manner that you're concerned about. 'Torah law' is not enforced in modern Israel; for better or for worse. 2. There is NO WAY currently for someone to become a citizen of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. It has not existed since the 8th Century BCE.....currently, you are a citizen of Israel (the modern, "State of" - or you aren't. For individuals who are not Jewish, it is not easy to become a citizen of Israel..... I'm sorry to be so brief, but I am truly crunched for time, so close to Pesah (Passover). May G-d give you strength and guidance in your journey. B'Ahavat Yehuda v'Yisrael (With Love of Judah & Israel), Hanoch On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:08 AM, -David. wrote: > I have been trying to get up to speed by listening to Ross' past Sunday > Shul episodes, as well as some episodes on ARBA4. > > I am really having to re-think Christianity.. do I want to observe the > "Religion OF Jesus" as would his Disciples, in their fulfillment of the > "great commission." > > Or do I want to observe the "Religion ABOUT Jesus" so all praise and glory > go to Jesus. After all, in Jeremiah, G-d claims to be the Savior, and states > there is no other. > > Months ago, I was checking into simply being a Noachide. But then I read > that if a poor person sells himself into bondservice, in Israel, when the > Sanhedrin are empowered, that only citizens must be released in the seventh > year. The foreigner, hence the Noachide, can remain in bondservice, > permanently. (Lev. 25:39~46) > > Now I see that if I adopt the "Religion OF Jesus," I need to attain full > citizenship in Israel (northern kingdom) since as Messiah, Jesus will rule > with a "rod of iron." Still, Torah is much more liberal in most areas. > Tonight, the news said in a Taliban-controlled area of Pakistan, a woman was > beaten 30 times with a rod for the offense of being in public without a male > relative. The Taliban said this was a lenient punishment, since the normal > would be for her to be stoned. > > On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Dick L wrote: > >> *I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or >> are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the >> Jews??? * >> * The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including >> torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , >> control, control of the masses.* >> >> *Subject:* Hello! >> >> Hey Dick, >> >> I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was >> not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another >> thought. >> >> Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because >> Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? >> >> Susie >> >> --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L * wrote: >> >> From: Dick L >> Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM >> >> When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do >> so >> many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are >> Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what >> G-d has giving them. >> We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or >> the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then >> become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L >> >> >> Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in >> the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage >> disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine >> flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! >> Paul >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: kim alvarado >> >> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/5ad1c70f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 07:52:20 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 05:52:20 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] No prayer at home. In-Reply-To: <578fa92a0904060444t297ecd68q8d8d1b1df5bcada8@mail.gmail.com> References: <578fa92a0904060444t297ecd68q8d8d1b1df5bcada8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904060552r462d8df7i45203cde49119797@mail.gmail.com> Folks - You're blowing this up WAY out of proportion. Without even knowing the details involved, I can tell you it's a "secular vs 'religious' issue." It happens all the time in Israel. We did such a good job (sarcasm) raising 2-3 generations of unconnected, Socialist 'Israeli's' (NOT Jews...), that they will go to any legal length to 'protect their rights.' It's neither a 'New World Order' or attempt to prevent a Jew from praying to HaShem. It's a moron Leftist with an attorney who has the time for this insanity. In the immortal words of the movie, 'Forrest Gump,' "stupid is, as stupid does.." * Hanoch * On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:44 AM, -David. wrote: > Were you able to get the Haaretz article to appear on their webpage? > I just searched for it a few times, but the closest I found said, > "Last update - 18:12 04/09/2007 > Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip call for ban on public prayer > meetings." http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/900335.html > > Since Judah is the obedient son, and Ephraim is the > disobendient/prodigal son, I would wonder if the targetted prayer > meetings being held were to try to sway people away from worshipping > the G-d of Israel. > > (I tried clicking your 2 links, but neither produced an article about > a decision about prayer, for me.) > > David.B > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 4:45 AM, wrote: > > > > I was reading my twitter stream (http://twitter.com/unicorntreebks) and > this one came up: http://ow.ly/29hH, > > it's a report from Haaretz on how a decision was handed down against > group prayer meetings being held in a domestic home in Jerusalem. > > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/0a1f6b5d/attachment.html From long777 at att.net Mon Apr 6 12:44:14 2009 From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy Long) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" References: Message-ID: <220580.99042.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Avigail, Do you happen to have any sources for this? I would love to read more about this. I googled it but have not gotten any results I like as of yet. Thank You in advance Jeremy ________________________________ From: Patricia Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 7:20:03 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" I remember when our Rabbi was teaching us about Judaism, and we were approaching Passover, he said that the?last meal of leavened bread is referred to as the last supper, because it is the last supper of leavened bread.? You will also remember that Judas "sopped" his bread, which he couldn?t have done with matzah. ? Avigail? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/2f4f83cc/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 13:18:35 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (oneillcody at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Message-ID: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ? Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/f6052b57/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Mon Apr 6 16:28:30 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:28:30 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! References: <253119.91990.qm@web54501.mail.re2.yahoo.com><012101c9b64a$eca1c670$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <040620090235.5736.49D96A7F000D27650000166822243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <00d101c9b6fe$a23c77b0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> I respect your opinion John. I even moreso believe we must respect the Rabbi's understanding as well, if not much more, which includes the Oral Torah. As you keep saying "it seems to me". That is your opinion, and it is OK, but as U just said it is "mans words". I have my words & you have yours. AND I still love to hear all opinions. And if we all agree we will learn very little I believe? Was'nt it YeShua who said, "Listen to the Rabbi's for they sit in Moses seat"? Now we know the he was a Torah observing Jewish Rabbi. In Acts Chap 15 , James another Torah observing Rabbi was including the 7 Laws, and concluded that Moses taught them every Sabbath Day. I'm sure there are more opinions out there, (or here) so I hope we hear them all. Dick L Subject:e] Hello! Hey Dick, Sorry, but I gotta disagree with ya here. Seems to me that G-d's Torah existed from the very beginning and it has always applied to all mankind. Unfortunately, also from the beginning, man has chosen to go his own way. So I would say if mankind had done what we were supposed to do from the beginning, there would have been no need for a Chosen People. It also seems to me that Israel's being chosen was not so much a distiction of privledge as it is one of responsibility. They were chosen to bring G-d's light to the world, not to keep it for themselves. So it seems to me that Israel is to bring what G-d gave them back to all of mankind that return to Him. When I say that I mean written Torah and all ten words, not 4 and not 7. I make that clarification because I want to be clear. I recently had a discussion with Hez on this list about Oral Torah and I see no need for a redux. I am speaking about written Torah. So given that, it should be clear that I am not speaking about the writings of the Rabbi's. While I respect them very much and I am learning much from them that makes understanding written Torah much richer, I consider them man's words. In my understanding, written Torah is about the way of life we are supposed have led all along in which the keystone is a deepening relationship with our Creator. It is G-d's intention for all of His treasure, His children, to live in accordance with His instruction, not pick and choose which instructions we follow by reason of labels. Israel belongs to G-d because He chose them for His own name's sake for a specific purpose, G-d does not belong to Israel, He belongs to everyone who turns to Him. On a related topic, I have been having a difficult time with one of your previous comments; When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. What do you mean by "stealing from the Jews what G-d has given them"? If you are speaking about Torah, that makes no sense. How can one steal from a steward that which the owner has commanded him to share freely? The answer to the question about "speak unto the children of Israel" is that there were many "strangers" who attached themselves to Israel who were not Jews because they turned to HaShem and chose to follow His ways. They were considered part of the assembly. I think something similar is happening today, and it's a good thing, it means the light of Israel still shines, it is acually the whole point as far as I can see. And no, I'm sorry, with all due respect, conversion is not the answer. Torah is good enough for me, maybe that will change in the future, I don't know. But this is not about converting to a religion, this is about returning to G-d. If you are speaking about stealing tradions and culture, I agree. But that does not describe anyone I have met on this list. There are those opportunists out there who will steal anything that even looks like it might turn a profit, that will never change until Mashiach comes. But those are not the ones you want converting to Judiasm, I assure you. My two cents. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Dick L" : -------------- Hi Susie !! Maybe I should say that the Laws are diff to the Jews and for the Goy, or the believer of the G-d of Israel. When Hashem seperated Israel from the World, or Nations, they certainly could not have the same rules. "Or" if every gentile was the same as the Jew there would be no need of a chosen People??? The Torah is Eternal, but to each there own place. Even Ye Shua said " Heaven and earth may pass away, but my Torah will never pass away". It is only my outlook or understanding, as I try to understand his way. Dick L Subject: Hello! Hi Dick, In response to this: I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? I know that a lot of people believe this. For most of my life I was taught and believed that the ways of G-d were now different for all mankind let alone a G-d who had different ways for the Jew vs. the Gentile. Now for me what a relief and comfort that the Torah is eternal, one , and for all mankind. Susie --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] e] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 4, 2009, 10:43 AM I believe the ways of G-d are different for the Jew VS the Gentile. Or are the 7 laws of Noah obsolete, as some say we should live the laws of the Jews??? The Church did anything possible to make people x tion. Including torture, murder, ect, the same as the Muslim religion today. Control , control, control of the masses. Subject: Hello! Hey Dick, I think Sh'ual agrued this very point. Conversion to another religion was not a requirement for following the ways of G-d. Here is just another thought. Did Christianity evolve into the religion that it is today because Gentiles did not want to give up their Gentile ways? Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Dick L wrote: From: Dick L Subject: [Dialogue] Hello! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 12:21 PM When it says in the Torah, "Speak unto the children of Israel", why do so many include them selves as Jews & try to live as Jews , when they are Gentile?. Some Rabbi's say that the Gentile is stealing from the Jew what G-d has giving them. We do know that Israel is seperate & apart from the Nations, or Goy, or the World. Arn't we.??????? I believe if we want to live as a Jew, then become one. Convert?? Some serious thouight, I think. Dick L Right on Kim... Not only won't I eat pork because of it being prohibited in the Torah; it is one of the biggest cause of cancer. Pigs are a garbage disposal, and as such are parasitic. YHVH commanded us not to eat swine flesh not because He wants to control us -- its because He loves us! Paul Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:42:05 To: Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/563e5394/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 6 16:01:06 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:01:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/77ff1eb1/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Apr 6 16:09:30 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:09:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/8a95b66c/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 6 16:25:09 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:25:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody In-Reply-To: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904051039j45a3b49ay19b2b68ecf552494@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BA27B8C282443D7BAC4BB34CC3C1E4D@bettylaptop> Beautiful, Hanoch, and sung with such feeling!!! Their voices are so full of love for Israel and the power of the Holy One, Blessed is He, who continues to rescue.in every generaion! Toda rabba! I marked it and will play it often. I am behind on my email again, but only 162 in my inbox now and that is nothing compared to the 1500 I had last week! I know you will be shouting at the end of the seder!!! Because you will be (HaShem willing, Next Year in Y'rushalayim!!! Love and Chag Sameach! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2009 12:40 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Pesah Seder melody Shalom L'Kulam, As the preparation for Pesah intensifies (LOL), I thought you might like to learn a beautiful, new melody for the Seder. The link below is a live version of a gorgeous version of "V'hi Sheamda" - which is read shortly after the 4 Questions. Click here: YouTube - Vehi Sheomdah Duet - Yaakov Shwekey & Yonatan Razel - Live in Caesaria 'V'hi Sheamda..' "It is THIS that has stood by our fathers and us. For not only one has risen against us to annihilate us, but in every generation they rise against us to annihilate us. But the Holy One Blessed is He, rescues us from their hand." Even without the orchestra behind you, it's a lovely version... Chag Sameach, Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/6c827c20/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:37:24 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:37:24 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> Message-ID: <855590370904061437i2b8908a2q2fa63115aaaff6c9@mail.gmail.com> There is no such thing as "mainstream Islam" vs "radical terrorists. Islam is a religion of war, death, destruction, and it's very name should give you the whole story: 'submission.' The world (in their view) is either Islamic, 'dhimmi' (lower status, paying a special tax to be subservient to Muslims..), or be killed. It's a really, really simple equation... In the end, it is a war between HaShem and their G-d, Allah. In the end, their can be *only *one... * Hanoch * On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Patty wrote: > Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical > terrorists, right? > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > *Sent:* Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > > *"We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has > done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, > including my own country," Obama said. * > > > > Huh??????????????? > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > > -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- > > > > *Obama declares US not at war with Islam* > > > > *Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern* > *By TOM RAUM > Associated Press Writer* > > > > ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim > nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will > never be at war with Islam." > > Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to > the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in > many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his > speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying > terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the > vast majority of Muslims. > > "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is > not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the > Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people > of all faiths reject." > > The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt > it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. > > Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, > carried Obama's speech live. > > Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is > critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all > faiths reject. > > "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based > on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon > mutual interests and mutual respect." > > "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done > so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including > my own country," Obama said. > > Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports > Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. > Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may > not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, > no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an > opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/491f7c7a/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 6 16:41:59 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:41:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <855590370904061437i2b8908a2q2fa63115aaaff6c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <855590370904061437i2b8908a2q2fa63115aaaff6c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3ABE1B69-3A84-44D4-A91C-646381019C81@earthlink.net> No offense Hanoch, but I am really surprised at this blanket statement against an entire Abrahamic faith, given the history of Jews, Christians, and Muslims over 1500 years. I would suggest the long view of history will show otherwise and the blood on the hands of the Christians, with whom we are trying to have good relations, is far darker and more violent...I think it is best to not offer such over generalizations but try to deal with specific situations. I understand where you are coming from in view of the past 150 years in the Land, but even that history is not so simple if you read the sources. James On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > There is no such thing as "mainstream Islam" vs "radical > terrorists. Islam is a religion of war, death, destruction, and > it's very name should give you the whole story: 'submission.' The > world (in their view) is either Islamic, 'dhimmi' (lower status, > paying a special tax to be subservient to Muslims..), or be killed. > It's a really, really simple equation... > > In the end, it is a war between HaShem and their G-d, Allah. In the > end, their can be only one... > Hanoch > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Patty wrote: > Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the > radical terrorists, right? > > > Patty > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which > has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the > better, including my own country," Obama said. > > > Huh??????????????? > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: > -------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > > > > Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern > By TOM RAUM > Associated Press Writer > > > > > ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a > Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is > not and will never be at war with Islam." > > Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an > address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an > important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against > terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond > between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as > al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of > Muslims. > > "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United > States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our > partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a > fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." > > The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that > felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist > attacks. > > Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite > channels, carried Obama's speech live. > > Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is > critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that > people of all faiths reject. > > "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be > based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement > based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." > > "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which > has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the > better, including my own country," Obama said. > > Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States > supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. > Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This > material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > > > > > > > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic > formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It > is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/983b2813/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 16:53:43 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <3ABE1B69-3A84-44D4-A91C-646381019C81@earthlink.net> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <855590370904061437i2b8908a2q2fa63115aaaff6c9@mail.gmail.com> <3ABE1B69-3A84-44D4-A91C-646381019C81@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <855590370904061453t596e58a7ha894de506c76628@mail.gmail.com> James, All you have to do is read their Koran, and study their history. And you can now, even watch the videos...and make sure to watch and listen to THEIR videos, too. http://perfectlyhuman.multiply.com/video/item/8 and Click here: http://www.themoviefitna.com/fitna-the-movie/ It is in the name of their religion that they murder children with axes, and smash the heads of babies on rocks. We all can make our own choices, but I, for one, will NOT submit.... * Hanoch* On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:41 PM, James Tabor wrote: > No offense Hanoch, but I am really surprised at this blanket statement > against an entire Abrahamic faith, given the history of Jews, Christians, > and Muslims over 1500 years. I would suggest the long view of history will > show otherwise and the blood on the hands of the Christians, with whom we > are trying to have good relations, is far darker and more violent...I think > it is best to not offer such over generalizations but try to deal with > specific situations. I understand where you are coming from in view of the > past 150 years in the Land, but even that history is not so simple if you > read the sources. > James > > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > > There is no such thing as "mainstream Islam" vs "radical terrorists. > Islam is a religion of war, death, destruction, and it's very name should > give you the whole story: 'submission.' The world (in their view) is either > Islamic, 'dhimmi' (lower status, paying a special tax to be subservient to > Muslims..), or be killed. It's a really, really simple equation... > > In the end, it is a war between HaShem and their G-d, Allah. In the end, > their can be *only *one... > * Hanoch > * > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Patty wrote: > >> Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical >> terrorists, right? >> >> >> Patty >> >> >> *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: >> dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * >> carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> *Sent:* Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM >> *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam >> >> >> *"We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has >> done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, >> including my own country," Obama said. * >> >> >> Huh??????????????? >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> >> -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- >> >> >> >> *Obama declares US not at war with Islam* >> >> >> >> *Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern* >> *By TOM RAUM >> Associated Press Writer* >> >> >> >> ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim >> nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will >> never be at war with Islam." >> >> Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to >> the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in >> many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his >> speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying >> terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the >> vast majority of Muslims. >> >> "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is >> not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the >> Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people >> of all faiths reject." >> >> The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt >> it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. >> >> Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, >> carried Obama's speech live. >> >> Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is >> critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all >> faiths reject. >> >> "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based >> on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon >> mutual interests and mutual respect." >> >> "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has >> done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, >> including my own country," Obama said. >> >> Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports >> Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. >> Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material >> may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. >> >> >> >> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic >> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an >> opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." >> --JFK-- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/83f520de/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 6 17:12:26 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:12:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <855590370904061453t596e58a7ha894de506c76628@mail.gmail.com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <855590370904061437i2b8908a2q2fa63115aaaff6c9@mail.gmail.com> <3ABE1B69-3A84-44D4-A91C-646381019C81@earthlink.net> <855590370904061453t596e58a7ha894de506c76628@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9579402A-2594-4B20-8128-BA8E14C31934@earthlink.net> Whoa there Chaver...I have to say I think you missed the point of my comment and you are surely being rather condescending to me here, as if I have not in fact read the Koran or been a student of Western history on a fairly high level. I think to talk of any faith in blanket ways "their videos" "they murder children," etc. is my very point and is not becoming of someone of your learning. I am not asking you to submit to anything but my point was that Christianity, with whom you are willing to apparently meet part way, is responsible for more blood and violence of Jews by far, and there are times in history, as you surely know, when Muslims protected Jews against the Christians. Need I remind you of Christian anti-Semitic texts? "You are of you father the Devil" "God's wrath has come upon them at last," "those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews are are not." On the smashing of babies heads on rocks, I think I need not tell you where that phrase first occurs. Let's talk about this face to face in Charlotte as I fear that e-mail is leading us astray. Warmest best, as ever, James On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > James, > > All you have to do is read their Koran, and study their > history. And you can now, even watch the videos...and make sure to > watch and listen to THEIR videos, too. > > http://perfectlyhuman.multiply.com/video/item/8 and > > Click here: http://www.themoviefitna.com/fitna-the-movie/ It is in > the name of their religion that they murder children with axes, and > smash the heads of babies on rocks. > > We all can make our own choices, but I, for one, will NOT > submit.... > Hanoch > > > On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:41 PM, James Tabor > wrote: > No offense Hanoch, but I am really surprised at this blanket > statement against an entire Abrahamic faith, given the history of > Jews, Christians, and Muslims over 1500 years. I would suggest the > long view of history will show otherwise and the blood on the hands > of the Christians, with whom we are trying to have good relations, > is far darker and more violent...I think it is best to not offer > such over generalizations but try to deal with specific situations. > I understand where you are coming from in view of the past 150 years > in the Land, but even that history is not so simple if you read the > sources. > > James > > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > >> There is no such thing as "mainstream Islam" vs "radical >> terrorists. Islam is a religion of war, death, destruction, and >> it's very name should give you the whole story: 'submission.' The >> world (in their view) is either Islamic, 'dhimmi' (lower status, >> paying a special tax to be subservient to Muslims..), or be >> killed. It's a really, really simple equation... >> >> In the end, it is a war between HaShem and their G-d, Allah. In >> the end, their can be only one... >> Hanoch >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Patty wrote: >> Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the >> radical terrorists, right? >> >> >> Patty >> >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam >> >> >> "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which >> has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the >> better, including my own country," Obama said. >> >> >> Huh??????????????? >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> >> -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: >> -------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Obama declares US not at war with Islam >> >> >> >> >> >> Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern >> By TOM RAUM >> Associated Press Writer >> >> >> >> >> ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a >> Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is >> not and will never be at war with Islam." >> >> Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an >> address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an >> important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against >> terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond >> between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as >> al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of >> Muslims. >> >> "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United >> States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our >> partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a >> fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." >> >> The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world >> that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, >> terrorist attacks. >> >> Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite >> channels, carried Obama's speech live. >> >> Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is >> critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that >> people of all faiths reject. >> >> "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not >> be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad >> engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." >> >> "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which >> has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the >> better, including my own country," Obama said. >> >> Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States >> supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. >> Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This >> material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic >> formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. >> It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." >> --JFK-- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/dc39f299/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 17:12:58 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (oneillcody at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] More from Obama today Message-ID: <208017.44780.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Obama said Monday that "one of the great strengths of the United States" is that it does not consider itself "a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values. I think modern Turkey was founded with a similar set of principles." "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/e88bde53/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 6 17:18:42 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:18:42 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] More from Obama today In-Reply-To: <208017.44780.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <208017.44780.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Cody, Not sure where you are going here but God forbid we would be a "Christian Nation" the way lots of evangelicals would like to see it. But I live in NC, close the the SC border, and I have learned to value our separation of church and state very much indeed. You can't imagine what I have faced here after publishing my book on Jesus. Nothing about Obama here, but about the wisdom of our founding fathers in allowing people to think and believe as they will, or even not believe. I would not have it any other way until YHVH returns. James On Apr 6, 2009, at 6:12 PM, oneillcody at yahoo.com wrote: > > Obama said Monday that "one of the great strengths of the United > States" is that it does not consider itself "a Christian nation or a > Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of > citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values. I think modern > Turkey was founded with a similar set of principles." > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic > formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It > is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/5cfe9d9a/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 18:41:18 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 16:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <819732.29255.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear James, ? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. I think you are trying to convey that G-d never originally intended or wanted the sacrifice or Temple and that they were not part of the original revelation given at Sinai but added later AFTER the Golden Calf incident because the Israelites turned to the ways of sacrifice like their pagan neighbors. The instructions of G-d to Moses in the orginal revelation at Sinai included the instructions of the Tabernacle and all the equipment, the vestments of the priests, altar, a lot of oil and blood being applied eveywhere.(Exodus 25-29) Exodus chapters 29 and 30 has instructions of sin offerings, atonement, rules of entering the Holy of Holies once a year for atonement for generation to generation. This was all given BEFORE the Golden Calf incident. I agree with you James that G-d always wanted a covenant with the heart. How wonderful that will be. The third Temple, Ezekiel's, seems to appear that it too will have a sacrifice system in place like the first two Temples. If this Temple is in place during the Messianic Age and the sin sacrifice remains(as it appears to) this will require some change of thought. Lastly, it is on my mind that before Sinai there was a sacrifice system under the order of Malki-Tzedek. Yes these could be done to draw closer to G-d. What was the significance of the covenant between the parts in Genesis 15? Foreshadow? Why did Moses slaughter bulls as feast peace offerings to Hashem, put the blood half in basins and half he threw on the altar. He then read the Book of the Covenant read it to the people who agreed to do everything written in it, took the blood and threw it on the people and then stated ,"Behold the blood of the covenant that Hashem sealed with you concerning all these matters." Just thoughts I consider worth pondering on. ? Susie --- On Sun, 4/5/09, James D. Tabor wrote: From: James D. Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:28 PM (Written yesterday from Turks & Caicos Islands, sending today, Sunday JDT) Today's Torah reading (Tzav Lev 6:1-8:36 [6:8 in Christian Bibles]) has to do with all the details of the various offerings, including the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, and the offering of "well-being," as well as the offerings connected to the installation of Aron and his sons as messiahs.??There is little to nothing in the reading, at the P'shat or "literal" level at least, to instruct or inspire in what is elsewhere in the Torah introduced as the "Way of YHVH" with its emphasis on justice and righteousness (mishpat & tzedekah). ?I know there are many who have a great deal of interest in these offerings and their details, and doubtless there are principles regarding intentional and unintentional errors, ritual purity, and "covering," but I for one find the "weightier matters of Torah" more of a draw. Amazingly, I think the ancient rabbis who formulated the divisions of our Parashah (Torah portions), with their readings from the Prophets, called Haftarah, share my sentiments in this regard. These supplemental readings often serve as a kind of "commentary" on the Torah readings, offering additional insight. It is surely quite striking that for the Torah reading Tzav they choseJeremiah 7:21-8:3 & 9:22-23!!??Take a look if that passage does not ring a bell.?? Jeremiah, writing 40 years before the destruction of the great Temple of Solomon, in which the people of Judah took such confidence and over which they felt such security.??He taunts them to sacrifice more and more, to add to their sacrifices, to keep it up, so to speak...with an obvious note of sarcasm. But then Jeremiah declares in v. 22: "For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you.'" And indeed, in today's Torah reading, in Lev 7:37 we indeed read: "These are the Torah of the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, etc. which YHVH commanded Moses on Mount Sinai when he commanded the people to bring their offerings. There is a specific chronology here revealed.??The book of Leviticus, and the latter part of Exodus, where the offerings are introduced, are AFTER the Golden Calf incident, when the people were determined to turn to such ways of sacrifice, much like their pagan neighbors around the area, but well into the second year after the Exodus.??See the chronology of Exodus 40:1 and compare it with Numbers 1:1.??The book of Leviticus falls in that MONTH in between, during the SECOND year after the revelation at Sinai.?? It seems clear to me that Jeremiah is reminding the Judeans who so trusted in the Temple, that YHVH never originally wanted or intended sacrifice or Temple...but these things were "added" to the Ten Words and their basic revelation that had been completed the first months at Sinai.??It was intended originally to be a "covenant of the heart," as Exodus 19-24 makes clear.???? The tent of meeting is something different, and is not implicitly connected to sacrifices, certainly not originally.??Rather it is a communications HQ between YHVH and Moses.??Picture it, in all its rugged rustic beauty, with the outer room smelling of fresh bread, the glow of the menorah, and the smell of insense...and the inner room with the golden chest containing the tablets with the very Ten Words.??If anything is ever "rebuilt" or restored, may it be that "house of prayer for all peoples," not a center for "hurting and destroying on the holy mountain." And that reminds one of the words used by Jeremiah in 31:31 following when he envisions a NEW COVENANT with both Houses of Israel--a relationship that will be like a faithful marriage, based on internal love and devotion, with the Torah in the heart, and the "knowledge" of YHVH being internalized. It is a long journey from Exodus One to Exodus Two, but what was intended at the first is surely to be realized at the Second.??All the Prophets picture a restored and "converted" Israel that walk by the Spirit, have the Torah in the heart, and Love YHVH and their fellow humans first and foremost!?? The good news is that we do not have to wait to experience this.??Any individual who now desires to make covenant with Yehovah, based on these principles, is surely promised a name "better than sons and daughters."?? I find it rather amazing that the Rabbis so wisely included this reading from Jeremiah.??It is a kind of "wink" to the reader, and a signification of things to come, right from the depths of Leviticus, in a Parasha, which perhaps more than any other, epitomizes the system of offerings and sacrifices that Israel began to take up that second year at Sinai. Shabbat Shalom to all, James _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/9bdf569d/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Apr 6 19:28:45 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:28:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav In-Reply-To: <819732.29255.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <819732.29255.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <081a01c9b717$d1f7ab50$75e701f0$@com> Hi Susie, What I have understood from this Torah/HafTorah portion is that YHWH never wanted/commanded animal sacrifices, but as we read in Jer. 7: 30] For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. [31] And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. So I think what we may be seeing here is that these people NEEDED/WANTED this ritual, and rather than having them sacrifice their children, he made provisions for "more acceptable" sacrifices. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav Dear James, Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. I think you are trying to convey that G-d never originally intended or wanted the sacrifice or Temple and that they were not part of the original revelation given at Sinai but added later AFTER the Golden Calf incident because the Israelites turned to the ways of sacrifice like their pagan neighbors. The instructions of G-d to Moses in the orginal revelation at Sinai included the instructions of the Tabernacle and all the equipment, the vestments of the priests, altar, a lot of oil and blood being applied eveywhere.(Exodus 25-29) Exodus chapters 29 and 30 has instructions of sin offerings, atonement, rules of entering the Holy of Holies once a year for atonement for generation to generation. This was all given BEFORE the Golden Calf incident. I agree with you James that G-d always wanted a covenant with the heart. How wonderful that will be. The third Temple, Ezekiel's, seems to appear that it too will have a sacrifice system in place like the first two Temples. If this Temple is in place during the Messianic Age and the sin sacrifice remains(as it appears to) this will require some change of thought. Lastly, it is on my mind that before Sinai there was a sacrifice system under the order of Malki-Tzedek. Yes these could be done to draw closer to G-d. What was the significance of the covenant between the parts in Genesis 15? Foreshadow? Why did Moses slaughter bulls as feast peace offerings to Hashem, put the blood half in basins and half he threw on the altar. He then read the Book of the Covenant read it to the people who agreed to do everything written in it, took the blood and threw it on the people and then stated ,"Behold the blood of the covenant that Hashem sealed with you concerning all these matters." Just thoughts I consider worth pondering on. Susie --- On Sun, 4/5/09, James D. Tabor wrote: From: James D. Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:28 PM (Written yesterday from Turks & Caicos Islands, sending today, Sunday JDT) Today's Torah reading (Tzav Lev 6:1-8:36 [6:8 in Christian Bibles]) has to do with all the details of the various offerings, including the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, and the offering of "well-being," as well as the offerings connected to the installation of Aron and his sons as messiahs. There is little to nothing in the reading, at the P'shat or "literal" level at least, to instruct or inspire in what is elsewhere in the Torah introduced as the "Way of YHVH" with its emphasis on justice and righteousness (mishpat & tzedekah). I know there are many who have a great deal of interest in these offerings and their details, and doubtless there are principles regarding intentional and unintentional errors, ritual purity, and "covering," but I for one find the "weightier matters of Torah" more of a draw. Amazingly, I think the ancient rabbis who formulated the divisions of our Parashah (Torah portions), with their readings from the Prophets, called Haftarah, share my sentiments in this regard. These supplemental readings often serve as a kind of "commentary" on the Torah readings, offering additional insight. It is surely quite striking that for the Torah reading Tzav they choseJeremiah 7:21-8:3 & 9:22-23!! Take a look if that passage does not ring a bell. Jeremiah, writing 40 years before the destruction of the great Temple of Solomon, in which the people of Judah took such confidence and over which they felt such security. He taunts them to sacrifice more and more, to add to their sacrifices, to keep it up, so to speak...with an obvious note of sarcasm. But then Jeremiah declares in v. 22: "For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you.'" And indeed, in today's Torah reading, in Lev 7:37 we indeed read: "These are the Torah of the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, etc. which YHVH commanded Moses on Mount Sinai when he commanded the people to bring their offerings. There is a specific chronology here revealed. The book of Leviticus, and the latter part of Exodus, where the offerings are introduced, are AFTER the Golden Calf incident, when the people were determined to turn to such ways of sacrifice, much like their pagan neighbors around the area, but well into the second year after the Exodus. See the chronology of Exodus 40:1 and compare it with Numbers 1:1. The book of Leviticus falls in that MONTH in between, during the SECOND year after the revelation at Sinai. It seems clear to me that Jeremiah is reminding the Judeans who so trusted in the Temple, that YHVH never originally wanted or intended sacrifice or Temple...but these things were "added" to the Ten Words and their basic revelation that had been completed the first months at Sinai. It was intended originally to be a "covenant of the heart," as Exodus 19-24 makes clear. The tent of meeting is something different, and is not implicitly connected to sacrifices, certainly not originally. Rather it is a communications HQ between YHVH and Moses. Picture it, in all its rugged rustic beauty, with the outer room smelling of fresh bread, the glow of the menorah, and the smell of insense...and the inner room with the golden chest containing the tablets with the very Ten Words. If anything is ever "rebuilt" or restored, may it be that "house of prayer for all peoples," not a center for "hurting and destroying on the holy mountain." And that reminds one of the words used by Jeremiah in 31:31 following when he envisions a NEW COVENANT with both Houses of Israel--a relationship that will be like a faithful marriage, based on internal love and devotion, with the Torah in the heart, and the "knowledge" of YHVH being internalized. It is a long journey from Exodus One to Exodus Two, but what was intended at the first is surely to be realized at the Second. All the Prophets picture a restored and "converted" Israel that walk by the Spirit, have the Torah in the heart, and Love YHVH and their fellow humans first and foremost! The good news is that we do not have to wait to experience this. Any individual who now desires to make covenant with Yehovah, based on these principles, is surely promised a name "better than sons and daughters." I find it rather amazing that the Rabbis so wisely included this reading from Jeremiah. It is a kind of "wink" to the reader, and a signification of things to come, right from the depths of Leviticus, in a Parasha, which perhaps more than any other, epitomizes the system of offerings and sacrifices that Israel began to take up that second year at Sinai. Shabbat Shalom to all, James _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/b214fc56/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Mon Apr 6 20:37:03 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:37:03 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Count the Omer Count till Shavuot Message-ID: <200904070137.n371b2IX009125@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy Day. Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is going to do. In any case, I recommend that you all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations. However, it is enough to know that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day. There is Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. repentance is always in order. Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai. We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are being called out of our settings. Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel." My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been doing, whatever that may have been. True, we are on diverse paths homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that. We need to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. The reason I am saying this is because we all have resisted the religious leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry Bones. We have a task. May I suggest that we have a discussion about this. Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, so that "the order" can be verified." That will take care of our "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us. However WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. Well, who is falling in line? Steve Ps: Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: [] Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com. Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ---------- HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. [] Please visit this link to update your preferences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/cd936a7d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 6 22:10:40 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:10:40 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 In-Reply-To: <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> References: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <040720090310.7372.49DAC42F0007917300001CCC22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Cornie, I'm working my way through the 150 emails I got over the weekend and have already read some of the more recent ones. I think in this post you have hit on the real problem of religion. Those that truly want to understand what they believe, as opposed to being told what they believe, are in the minority. In addition, when people dare to ask the questions that would lead to real belief based on understanding religion has historically discouraged it, sometimes violently. Most religions have some history of suppression regarding curiosity that sheds light on the established doctrine. Historical Christianity and modern day Islam are two prime examples of this behavior. Fanaticism grows out of the avaricial ambitions of greedy people who prey on the innocent ignorence of the masses. In Christian history, this was aided by the fact that most Christians did not have the Bible available to them and/or couldn't read in the first place. Today, on the Christian side I think it is more a case of laziness, it's easier to go to church on Sunday and get your fix of righteousness to last you through the week instead of spending time with G-d's Word every day. That is admittedly a generalization , and I know that there are devoted Christians who study G-d's word regularly, but again I submit that they are the exception in my experience. As for Islam, I can't speak to that, I have never read the Koran. I've been too busy extricating myself from one form of blindness to risk delving into another, I intend to get there eventually. But as a citizen of the world I can make the observation that if Islam, as a religion, is a peaceful one, then those who represent that view within that culture had better start speaking more loudly. Because all I can hear are the fanatics screaming bloody murder toward both Israel and the US. One could argue that that is the media's fault, but the media responds to what sell's papers. If Islam truly wants to redeem their reputation in the world, their actions need to start speaking more loudly that those of the fanatics that claim allegiance to them. One of the main reasons I was attracted to Judiasm was the fact that as a religion as well as a culture, Jews welcome questions. They also welcome disagreement. So much so that historically, the Jewish Rabbinate kept records of the dissenting views given in any particular argument, just in case the prevailing view agreed upon at the time turned out to be in error, I love that! So, the short of it is that each of us is responsible for understanding what we believe and taking to task those who see fit to decalre that they have it all figured out. Only HaShem has it all figured out. With all due respect to all the religions of the world and all of their wise men, we are all just students of life with different course loads. Some choose the right courses and others choose detention. Shalom Cornie. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Cornie Reimer : -------------- Susie I agree with you, we raised 8 children , even the Christian way. Even though there may be no evidence of truth for what we taught them, like for example, the virgin birth of a God etc., and thanks to Torah, that is different, the Torah even may have been translated wrong as we get it, or whatever the case. But when I follow what it teaches it seems to me it does not deceive us, it can be proven even by archaeologists, where as any authentic evidence that Jesus was God, as I taught my own children, and believed myself most of my life, does not seem to be grounded on real truth. Now I have changed, but my children still believe what I taught them. Am I getting off the topic? If so, maybe it is because I just finished watching a DVD "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE". A Film Beyond Belief." This could have been cast by an atheist, but a number of Christians were questioned for proof of what they believe, when it comes to the test if he as proof, he gets offended and walks out of the room, this is a leader responsible for 1800 pupils in a Christian Academy. susie getskow wrote: Hey Cornie, As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing what I asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said so," was good enough and that they trusted that my asking was because I loved them and wanted nothing but the best for them. Susie --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word is number one. But there are great blessings involved with obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you others will agree. If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their footsteps. Cornie Patty wrote: Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ??? and their model? The Jews! PORK AND CANCER To the Editors of the ???Monthly Homeopathic Review??? GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the Birmingham Daily Post of this day???s date. A correspondent who signs himself ???Common Sense??? writes as follows to the St. James??? Gazette: ???Is it not a fact that cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of such an article of food as pig???s flesh seems to point to the reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which eventually became what is known as ???dairy-fed pork???. I have examined bacon frequently, and have often found small ???cysts??? or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork, it is not beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the seeds of all kinds of disease into the system.??? (emphasis mine.) If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and should be very pleased to read any comments you or any medical gentleman may write on this subject in the Review. Is it possible that the London Hospital Authorities are cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. If it is true, it is a very serious matter affecting thousands of lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the city hospitals. If it is not true, then the hospitals of London should at once take the matter up and deny it in the most public way possible. If it is true, then pork in any form whatever, should be most scrupulously avoided and discontinued as an article of diet. For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork would very materially add to the health of the nation at large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the statement as per newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in writing you so long a letter. Yours very cordially, SAMUEL ROBINSON Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. September 11th, 1901. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/28209191/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 6 22:27:17 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:27:17 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=AB=D7=AA=D7=A4=D7=99=D7=9C=D7=94=20=D7=9E=D7=9E=D7=A2=D7=9E?= =?utf-8?Q?=D7=A7=D7=99=D7=9D=20-=20From=20the=20depths=20i?= called you hashe=?utf-8?Q?m=E2=80=AC=E2=80=8E?= In-Reply-To: <49D75253.3010509@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040720090327.3624.49DAC813000E5CA600000E2822230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, YouTube links notwithstanding, the posts are getting shorter! Just kidding man, keep it coming, shalom. ;-{)} -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- This is what we have witnessed with our own eyes. It was marvelous in our eyes !!!! And yet the pain continues, why ? Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ApTOj2Gix8&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/3da80d6b/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 6 22:39:36 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:39:36 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Nine, Eleven and Ten. In-Reply-To: <49D79098.9020701@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040720090339.19756.49DACAF6000B84EE00004D2C22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hmm, Not to take away from the point of this Joe, it is well received and food for thought but something just occurred to me as I was reading it. Isn't it interesting that String theory postulates a universe with ten dimensions? These are mathematical calculations and admittedly theoretical but it is interesting nevertheless. In addition, String theory's offshoot, M-theory postulates 11 dimensions. M-theory is called the theory of everything. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Nine, Eleven and Ten By Simon Jacobson 9/11. Nine Eleven. September 11. Ruminating on the first anniversary of Tuesday September 11, feeling the grief and trauma of my fellow New Yorkers as they and thousands of visitors solemnly gathered at Ground Zero, something rings a bell. Where have I heard the numbers nine and eleven before? It then comes to me. In the Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Formation), the oldest Kabbalistic text, attributed to the patriarch Abraham, a cryptic phrase states: "Ten sefirot of nothingness; ten and not nine, ten and not eleven." The ten sefirot (divine attributes) are the basic building blocks -- the spiritual DNA -- of all of existence. Exactly ten. Not nine, not eleven. Exactly ten, not more, not less. Precision is critical to all systems. One missing or extra point in a computer program, one deficient or additional cell, can wreak devastating havoc. 9/11 is a day that shook up our entire system, a day that exposed our vulnerabilities and revealed the tenuousness of global stability. What is the missing ingredient in 9/11 -- the tenth dimension -- that manifests the events unleashed one year ago on September 11? Yom Kippur -- the tenth day -- is that ingredient. Rosh Hashanah is the birthday of the universe with the human at the center. The following ten days rebuild the structure of existence, culminating with Yom Kippur, when Moses descends from Sinai with the Second Tablets and the promise of hope even after destruction. In Kabbalistic language this ten-day period is called binyan ha?malchut, the building of sovereignty. Psychologically, in this period we rebuild human dignity -- the essential value and sanctity of every person?s life derived from the fact that each human being is created in the Divine Image. In the ten days from Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur, and especially on Yom Kippur, we reaffirm the indispensable nature and inalienable rights of every human being on earth, by virtue of our connection to G-d, who chose each of us to fulfill our unique mission. And it is this Divine ingredient -- the dignity of Malchut -- that was missing from the demonically distorted religious beliefs of the attackers. Love of G-d is one with love of all people, if for no other reason than their being reflections of the Divine Image. One can have an elaborate structure of all nine elements -- a complete intellectual and emotional system -- but if you are missing the tenth dimension, Malchut, everything is compromised. Malchut also represents the Divine presence within nature and all of existence. At the pinnacle of Yom Kippur -- the conclusion of the Ne'ilah prayer -- we declare that G-d is One and we repeat seven times that "HaVaYaH hu ha?Elokim" -- G-d that transcends all of existence is one with the G-dliness within all of existence. Religion that believes in a G-d in Heaven but forgets about G-d?s presence on Earth (ten minus one -- nine), or annihilates life on Earth (ten plus one -- eleven), will be fundamentally bankrupt. 9/11 -- and all the events of the past year -- remind us that science, politics, economy, every one of our systems, must include the tenth dimension, Malchut, for us to survive. This tenth ingredient is the key to our security and future. Above all, Malchut is distinguished for its bittul (self-effacement). Malchut is the moon, with no light of its own, reflecting the light of the sun. When you shine your own light, you are only as great as you are. You may be very great, but human greatness is always limited, temporal, mortal. When you become a channel that reflects a light greater than your own, when you are dedicated to something beyond yourself, you become greater than yourself. When you dedicate yourself to eternity -- and to eternal values -- you become eternal. Before 9/11, Americans, and much of the rest of the world as well, felt that we had it "all figured out." Our unprecedented prosperity, high standard of living, sophisticated technology, created an illusion of invulnerability. 9/11 reminded us that we need the tenth truth, Malchut, and the bittul it espouses. Religion without the dignity and balance of Malchut -- without the basic respect for the G-dliness in others -- becomes a destructive force. Just as is the case with a business corporation. Don?t cut out the tenth dimension, and don?t add to it. Don?t be too secular and don?t be overly religious. Don't overindulge in the material and don't escape into the spiritual. Balance and integrate the two. Don't be less or more religious than G-d. Don't be materially or spiritually arrogant. G-d created a universe and entrusted us with the power to refine and not destroy the material world. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8a6fcbe3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8a6fcbe3/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8a6fcbe3/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 4632 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8a6fcbe3/attachment.jpe From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Apr 6 23:26:17 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (oneillcody at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] More from Obama today Message-ID: <597274.38348.qm@web37303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey James. Completely agree with the founders that there should be a separation of church and state. But this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, and to deny that fact is in my opinion a denial of what the founders intended. ?Separation of church and state was put in place to protect both. ? I will be the very first to say, while it may upset some, that I often did not agree George Bush. ?But I appreciate his intentions, even if I don't agree with his actions. If you take the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and yes Jesus, out of this country, you have no country. ?The principles and morals this country was founded on where not man given rights, but God given rights. My country is not the country of my fathers with the message that Obama is sending.? And on a side note, I just want to make clear that I am no fan of either democrat or republican. ?My views are not based on the two sided American political spectrum. ?I just see my country slipping away, and at this moment there is no new frontier.? Please do not mistake my passion for anger.?Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090406/51849977/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 03:15:32 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:15:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. Message-ID: <49DB0BA4.1020902@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/d90cd7fc/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: handofgod.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 13850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/d90cd7fc/attachment.jpg From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 03:15:47 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:15:47 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG SAMEACH PESACH. Message-ID: <49DB0BB3.4070701@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/b492e43d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-11.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 44203 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/b492e43d/attachment.jpg From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 04:09:05 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:09:05 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG PESACH SAMEACH. Message-ID: <49DB1831.5030100@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/815d4859/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 04:14:55 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:14:55 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG PESACH SAMEACH. Message-ID: <49DB198F.5090809@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/0267025e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 05:08:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 03:08:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Chag Sameach - 'Matzo Man' Message-ID: <855590370904070308k3bfff1bsdec94a163a51c476@mail.gmail.com> Chag Sameach L'Kulam, * Hanoch** Click here: YouTube - Matzo Man * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8f406419/attachment.html From pandesko at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 05:59:57 2009 From: pandesko at gmail.com (-David.) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 05:59:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <027f01c9b404$ce194040$6a4bc0c0$@com> Message-ID: <578fa92a0904070359h6592bc9cm7b877d1ced704871@mail.gmail.com> Some of my fondest memories are of slow-cooked spare-ribs from The Rib Ranch. I have relatives that raise swine, and even if they do eat their young, smoked ham hocks added wonderful flavor and satiety to snap-peas, green-beans and pinto-beans. My family no longer asks me to go eat bar-b-queu at the Rib Crib. I have to tell myself that the same word that is translated 'abomination' is applied to both pork and homosexuality, so in a 'round-about way, when I abstain from pork, I am quietly also protesting homosexuality. If I cook turkey-spam long enough on my George-Foreman grill, it gets a crispy coating, reminiscent of crispy bacon. I abstain only from obedience, and not because of anything people detest about pigs. Just like when Yeshua said I would be comitting adultery, were I to wed a divorcee', because I have learned before marrying that to do so would be adultery, I had to abstain from marrying. Obedience is better than sacrifice, right? It's all about obedience. On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 3:51 PM, mhyde wrote: > We laugh, we learn and sometimes we get sideways with each other a little, > but we are no doubt the beginning of the fulfillment of the Prophets vision > of the future??..?? our grandfathers of the last few generations would have > never believe it, if you told them of this day and this dialogue.? The good, > the bad, and the ugly!? Warts and all we are moving into the future and in > the future we will meet our beloved! > > > > Just for fun Patty this one is for you! > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5kek3D-4I > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:35 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > > I have to agree here.? Swine was forbidden to eat because it is unhealthy. > If it is unhealthy for the Jew, isn?t it unhealthy for all? > > > > Patty > > > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:50 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > > I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way > to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general > principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit > of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an > abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care > nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we > should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this > topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against > the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. > > > > James > > > > > > On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: > > > > If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate > the meat from the fat. ?You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no > neck to slit. ?Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in > the blood. > > On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: > > Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. > > ========Original Message======== > > Subj: > > RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > Date: > > 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time > > From: > > mhyde7 at tds.net > > To: > > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > Sent on: > > > > In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in > Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig?? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) > and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles.?? Don?t hit me!?? Just > sharing information! > > > > Peace Brother, > > > > ________________________________ > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > > > > Hey Susie, > > > > I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right.? I don't > think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that > we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has > given us that brings evil into the world. > > > > Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"!? Why, > because HaShem said so. > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > > -------------- Original message from susie getskow : > -------------- > > Hey Joe, > > > > Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who > understand Hebrew. > > The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't > necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word > Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not > set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as > its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? > > > > Susie > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > From: JOE INDOMENICO > Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM > > Shalom Melanie, > > I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. > > A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old > Dart." > No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we > have the cricket ashes. ;-) > I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. > > If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will > understand the ways of HaShem. > Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. > So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. > We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. > > It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and > frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to > thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. > > What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest > for this emet. > In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, > the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis > deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will > always be. > Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is > Truth. > > So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying > opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the > occasional speed bumps. > > Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. > Dialogue is the main ingredient. > > I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit > your page to get to know you. > > Tally Ho, ol'chap. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ________________________________ > > Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > From pandesko at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 06:19:29 2009 From: pandesko at gmail.com (-David.) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 06:19:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Hello!] In-Reply-To: <578fa92a0904070359h6592bc9cm7b877d1ced704871@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904021642t6718ee31taeb16a1db86c0e38@mail.gmail.com> <027f01c9b404$ce194040$6a4bc0c0$@com> <578fa92a0904070359h6592bc9cm7b877d1ced704871@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <578fa92a0904070419v52193d92wa6145da1fffd49c7@mail.gmail.com> Is there, somewhere, a Massively Multiplayer Online Community, where we can practice being Ephraimite, using Avatars? We could do adventures, and quests, like with World of Warcraft, or even something innocuous like "There?" That way, I could use an avatar with a long, full beard, instead of my stubbly one. With the avatar, I join up with everyone in the village Synagogue, instead of wondering whether to peek-in on the local Reform Congregation. That way, when I get off work at midnight, I can fellowship with some Aussie's avatars, in an electronic, Ephraimite, role-playing world... Sounds good, no? On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:59 AM, -David. wrote: > Some of my fondest memories are of slow-cooked spare-ribs from The Rib > Ranch. ?I have relatives that raise swine, and even if they do eat > their young, smoked ham hocks added wonderful flavor and satiety to > snap-peas, green-beans and pinto-beans. > > My family no longer asks me to go eat bar-b-queu at the Rib Crib. ?I > have to tell myself that the same word that is translated > 'abomination' is applied to both pork and homosexuality, so in a > 'round-about way, when I abstain from pork, I am quietly also > protesting homosexuality. > > If I cook turkey-spam long enough on my George-Foreman grill, it gets > a crispy coating, reminiscent of crispy bacon. ?I abstain only from > obedience, and not because of anything people detest about pigs. > > Just like when Yeshua said I would be comitting adultery, were I to > wed a divorcee', because I have learned before marrying that to do so > would be adultery, I had to abstain from marrying. > > Obedience is better than sacrifice, right? ?It's all about obedience. > > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 3:51 PM, mhyde wrote: >> We laugh, we learn and sometimes we get sideways with each other a little, >> but we are no doubt the beginning of the fulfillment of the Prophets vision >> of the future??..?? our grandfathers of the last few generations would have >> never believe it, if you told them of this day and this dialogue.? The good, >> the bad, and the ugly!? Warts and all we are moving into the future and in >> the future we will meet our beloved! >> >> >> >> Just for fun Patty this one is for you! >> >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU5kek3D-4I >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty >> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:35 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> >> >> >> I have to agree here.? Swine was forbidden to eat because it is unhealthy. >> If it is unhealthy for the Jew, isn?t it unhealthy for all? >> >> >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor >> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:50 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> >> >> >> I have to strongly disagree with you here Hez. Although we have a long way >> to go in having the entire world follow the teaching of Torah, as a general >> principle the mitzvot are universal and ultimately intended for the benefit >> of all humankind. I would never tell anyone that to eat what God calls an >> abomination is "no problem." Most Gentiles know nothing of this and care >> nothing of such things, considering them "Jewish," but that does not mean we >> should encourage this ignorance. The last chapter of Isaiah addresses this >> topic specifically. There we are told how God will come in judgment against >> the nations, not the Jews, for eating swine flesh and the abomination, etc. >> >> >> >> James >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 2, 2009, at 7:42 PM, kim alvarado wrote: >> >> >> >> If you don't care at all about your health...with pork you can't separate >> the meat from the fat. ?You also can't abstain from blood as a pig has no >> neck to slit. ?Blood isn't good for anyone either...disease is carried in >> the blood. >> >> On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:32 PM, wrote: >> >> Pork is only not kosher to Jews, Gentiles can have at it without a problem. >> >> ========Original Message======== >> >> Subj: >> >> RE: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> >> Date: >> >> 4/2/2009 11:44:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time >> >> From: >> >> mhyde7 at tds.net >> >> To: >> >> dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> >> Sent on: >> >> >> >> In the interest of fair and balanced dialogue there is an opinion in >> Orthodox Judaism that the ?Pig?? is off limits to those of Israel(Greater) >> and the purpose of the pig is to feed Gentiles.?? Don?t hit me!?? Just >> sharing information! >> >> >> >> Peace Brother, >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of >> carlson_john at bellsouth.net >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:44 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> >> >> >> Hey Susie, >> >> >> >> I don't know about everyone else but I think you have it right.? I don't >> think that HaShem created anything inherently evil, it is the choices that >> we make regarding the uses we put them to in light of the instruction He has >> given us that brings evil into the world. >> >> >> >> Pigs are not evil, they have a purpose, they are however, "not food"!? Why, >> because HaShem said so. >> >> >> >> -- >> John C. >> >> "Be excellent to each other!" >> Bill and Ted >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from susie getskow : >> -------------- >> >> Hey Joe, >> >> >> >> Here is a thought that I would like more imput on from all of you who >> understand Hebrew. >> >> The word Kodesh(holy) also can mean set apart right? So we wouldn't >> necessarily call ourselves holy but I would call you set apart Joe. The word >> Tov means good but also functional? The pig can be tov or functional but not >> set apart. The pig was tov as G-d made it but wasn't made for us to eat as >> its function was for something else. Does this make sense to anyone? >> >> >> >> Susie >> >> --- On Tue, 3/31/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: >> >> From: JOE INDOMENICO >> Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Hello!] >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:57 AM >> >> Shalom Melanie, >> >> I am a Joe also and I ain't holy either. >> >> A warm welcome to the group. Always nice to have someone from "the Old >> Dart." >> No pommie bashing on this group from the ex colonial convicts even though we >> have the cricket ashes. ;-) >> I am from sunny Queensland (a bit blowly and wet lately), Australia. >> >> If you can measure the entire universe and some more then you will >> understand the ways of HaShem. >> Understanding commences in this life and continues for eternity. >> So, relax and sit back and enjoy the honour and reverence of knowing Him. >> We need only to bow to His Glory and submit to His will. >> >> It sounds easy but we have certain human traits or "midot" that hinder and >> frustrate us. The "yetzer hara" or evil inclination is always there to >> thwart our progress. The antidote is the "emet" or truth of Torah. >> >> What we all have in common in this group is the zeal and unfathomable quest >> for this emet. >> In fact the hebrew letters of the word emet - aleph, mem, tav are the first, >> the middle and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. From this the rabbis >> deduce that HaShem is the first and the last and that He was and is and will >> always be. >> Hence their final conclusion is that the beginning of HaShem's Word is >> Truth. >> >> So therefore we are all on this same path, even though we may have varying >> opinions and may be walking at different paces, we seem to get over the >> occasional speed bumps. >> >> Your input will be always be appreciated with or without agreement. >> Dialogue is the main ingredient. >> >> I am on SWW but do not go there often due to time constraints. I will visit >> your page to get to know you. >> >> Tally Ho, ol'chap. >> >> Shalom v'Ahavah >> JOE. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > From creechmargie at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 06:59:40 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 04:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG PESACH SAMEACH. In-Reply-To: <49DB1831.5030100@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <385235.71162.qm@web58501.mail.re3.yahoo.com> LOL, thanks Joe! --- On Tue, 4/7/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] CHAG PESACH SAMEACH. To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:09 AM http://americancomedynetwork.com/animation.html?bit_id=24646 Shalom JOE _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/1b550157/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 7 08:36:00 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 13:36:00 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. In-Reply-To: <49DB0BA4.1020902@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <040720091336.1218.49DB56C000035867000004C222230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Beautiful Joe, The Hubble and Chandra have revealed many beautiful signatures that HaShem left for us to find. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- THE HAND OF HASHEM A dying star creates an image being referred to as the "Hand of God". In a new image from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, high-energy X-rays emanating from the nebula around PSR B1509-58 have been colored blue to reveal a structure resembling a hand reaching for some eternal red cosmic light. More here and here May we merit to see the Hand of HaShem during this season of freedom. Note the hand is taking the crown. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/e0dc7ad6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/e0dc7ad6/attachment.jpe From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Apr 7 13:34:52 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:34:52 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com><040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> Message-ID: <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Please anyone, tell me one (1) thing that Islam has done to shape the world for the better?????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in N.Y. but not for the better??? From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/e3703d68/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 7 10:57:33 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 11:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com><040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Message-ID: <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> This is a very, very bigoted point of view, Dick; the equivalent of condemning all Jews for killing Jesus. The terrorists that bombed the WTC did not follow any religion, nor do they represent ALL of Islam. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Please anyone, tell me one (1) thing that Islam has done to shape the world for the better?????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in N.Y. but not for the better??? From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/cf0e0d44/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 11:24:25 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:24:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> Message-ID: <855590370904070924k1036ed97q11f9e6b2c414ca1f@mail.gmail.com> Patty - ALL the terrorists who attacked the US on 9/11/2001 were Muslims. ALL of them... Name me one single Iman in the United States, or in any Moslem country that condemned the 9/11 attacks. Just one.... Of COURSE the terrorists represent Islam... * Hanoch * On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Patty wrote: > This is a very, very bigoted point of view, Dick; the equivalent of > condemning all Jews for killing Jesus. The terrorists that bombed the WTC > did not follow any religion, nor do they represent ALL of Islam. > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Dick L > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:35 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > > *Please anyone, tell me one (1) thing that Islam has done to shape the > world for the better?????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in > N.Y. but not for the better???* > > *From:* Patty > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Sent:* Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > > Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical > terrorists, right? > > > > Patty > > > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of * > carlson_john at bellsouth.net > *Sent:* Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam > > > > *"We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has > done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, > including my own country," Obama said. * > > > > Huh??????????????? > > > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > > -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- > > > > *Obama declares US not at war with Islam* > > > > *Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern* > *By TOM RAUM > Associated Press Writer* > > > > ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim > nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will > never be at war with Islam." > > Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to > the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in > many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his > speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying > terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the > vast majority of Muslims. > > "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is > not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the > Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people > of all faiths reject." > > The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt > it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. > > Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, > carried Obama's speech live. > > Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is > critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all > faiths reject. > > "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based > on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon > mutual interests and mutual respect." > > "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done > so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including > my own country," Obama said. > > Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports > Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. > Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may > not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. > > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, > no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an > opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/663a2742/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 11:30:26 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav In-Reply-To: <081a01c9b717$d1f7ab50$75e701f0$@com> References: <819732.29255.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <081a01c9b717$d1f7ab50$75e701f0$@com> Message-ID: <452088.83846.qm@web51104.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Y'all, ? Jer 7:22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices [What about the Pesach Sacrifice and the sacrifices instituted from the beginning?]: Jer 7:23But this thing commanded I them, saying, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways [all the ways, not simply the sacrificial ways]?that I have commanded you [from Adam thru to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], that it may be well unto you." ? Reading this in it's context, throughout chapter seven...what is being addressed...is this:?The people were doing evil and yet, continuing with the sacrifices that HaShem Himself commanded (beginning with Adam and Seth to Noah?right through to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and his firstborn sons and Moses Ex.24:24) thinking that their Korbanot was some kind of majic formula that worked irregardless of their Disobedience to His Voice and the rest of His Ways. The 10 commands themselves came with directives on how He wanted His Altar built. Ex.20:24?? It seems to me that it was a matter of getting 'the cart before the horse'. Gen 4:4 ? Even though it was not His Original Instruction to Adam, this Torah of Slaughter was "added [by HaShem to the Covenant] because of transgression until the seed should come to whom the promises were made". That "seed" is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15. It was a parenthetical insertion, placed?into the Everlasting Covenant, given for a limited amount of time. When will that time be up? Some say, already! Some say, after the coming Days of Mashiach (lasting 1000 years). To me, that is a legitimate discussion; However,?to?use Jeremiah 7:22 in this manner?is incorrect, in my humble opinion. ? Love & Prayers, Tracy?? ?And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: [Who told Abel to bring the firstlings of his flock?] Gen 8:20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. Gen 8:21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; [Why was it a sweet savour unto HaShem? Was it not because it was done by one who was righteous and blameless in His Eyes.?Noah had 'the horse before the cart', as he was commanded!] ________________________________ From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 8:28:45 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav Hi Susie, ? What I have understood from this Torah/HafTorah portion is that YHWH never wanted/commanded animal sacrifices, but as we read in Jer. 7: 30] For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, says the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. [31] And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. ? So I think what we may be seeing here is that these people NEEDED/WANTED this ritual, and rather than having them sacrifice their children, he made provisions for ?more acceptable? sacrifices. ? Patty ? From:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of susie getskow Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:41 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav ? Dear James, ? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. I think you are trying to convey that G-d never originally intended or wanted the sacrifice or Temple and that they were not part of the original revelation given at Sinai but added later AFTER the Golden Calf incident because the Israelites turned to the ways of sacrifice like their pagan neighbors. The instructions of G-d to Moses in the orginal revelation at Sinai included the instructions of the Tabernacle and all the equipment, the vestments of the priests, altar, a lot of oil and blood being applied eveywhere.(Exodus 25-29) Exodus chapters 29 and 30 has instructions of sin offerings, atonement, rules of entering the Holy of Holies once a year for atonement for generation to generation. This was all given BEFORE the Golden Calf incident. I agree with you James that G-d always wanted a covenant with the heart. How wonderful that will be. The third Temple, Ezekiel's, seems to appear that it too will have a sacrifice system in place like the first two Temples. If this Temple is in place during the Messianic Age and the sin sacrifice remains(as it appears to) this will require some change of thought. Lastly, it is on my mind that before Sinai there was a sacrifice system under the order of Malki-Tzedek. Yes these could be done to draw closer to G-d. What was the significance of the covenant between the parts in Genesis 15? Foreshadow? Why did Moses slaughter bulls as feast peace offerings to Hashem, put the blood half in basins and half he threw on the altar. He then read the Book of the Covenant read it to the people who agreed to do everything written in it, took the blood and threw it on the people and then stated ,"Behold the blood of the covenant that Hashem sealed with you concerning all these matters." Just thoughts I consider worth pondering on. ? Susie --- On Sun, 4/5/09, James D. Tabor wrote: From: James D. Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Reading Tzav To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 5, 2009, 8:28 PM (Written yesterday from Turks & Caicos Islands, sending today, Sunday JDT) ? Today's Torah reading (Tzav Lev 6:1-8:36 [6:8 in Christian Bibles]) has to do with all the details of the various offerings, including the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, and the offering of "well-being," as well as the offerings connected to the installation of Aron and his sons as messiahs.??There is little to nothing in the reading, at the P'shat or "literal" level at least, to instruct or inspire in what is elsewhere in the Torah introduced as the "Way of YHVH" with its emphasis on justice and righteousness (mishpat & tzedekah). ?I know there are many who have a great deal of interest in these offerings and their details, and doubtless there are principles regarding intentional and unintentional errors, ritual purity, and "covering," but I for one find the "weightier matters of Torah" more of a draw. Amazingly, I think the ancient rabbis who formulated the divisions of our Parashah (Torah portions), with their readings from the Prophets, called Haftarah, share my sentiments in this regard. These supplemental readings often serve as a kind of "commentary" on the Torah readings, offering additional insight. It is surely quite striking that for the Torah reading Tzav they choseJeremiah 7:21-8:3 & 9:22-23!!??Take a look if that passage does not ring a bell.?? Jeremiah, writing 40 years before the destruction of the great Temple of Solomon, in which the people of Judah took such confidence and over which they felt such security.??He taunts them to sacrifice more and more, to add to their sacrifices, to keep it up, so to speak...with an obvious note of sarcasm. But then Jeremiah declares in v. 22: "For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, 'Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you.'" And indeed, in today's Torah reading, in Lev 7:37 we indeed read: "These are the Torah of the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering, the guilt offering, etc. which YHVH commanded Moses on Mount Sinaiwhen he commanded the people to bring their offerings. There is a specific chronology here revealed.??The book of Leviticus, and the latter part of Exodus, where the offerings are introduced, are AFTER the Golden Calf incident, when the people were determined to turn to such ways of sacrifice, much like their pagan neighbors around the area, but well into the secondyear after the Exodus.??See the chronology of Exodus 40:1 and compare it with Numbers 1:1.??The book of Leviticus falls in that MONTH in between, during the SECOND year after the revelation at Sinai.?? It seems clear to me that Jeremiah is reminding the Judeans who so trusted in the Temple, that YHVH never originally wanted or intended sacrifice or Temple...but these things were "added" to the Ten Words and their basic revelation that had been completed the first months at Sinai.??It was intended originally to be a "covenant of the heart," as Exodus 19-24 makes clear.???? The tent of meeting is something different, and is not implicitly connected to sacrifices, certainly not originally.??Rather it is a communications HQ between YHVH and Moses.??Picture it, in all its rugged rustic beauty, with the outer room smelling of fresh bread, the glow of the menorah, and the smell of insense...and the inner room with the golden chest containing the tablets with the very Ten Words.??If anything is ever "rebuilt" or restored, may it be that "house of prayer for all peoples," not a center for "hurting and destroying on the holy mountain." And that reminds one of the words used by Jeremiah in 31:31 following when he envisions a NEW COVENANT with both Houses of Israel--a relationship that will be like a faithful marriage, based on internal love and devotion, with the Torah in the heart, and the "knowledge" of YHVH being internalized. It is a long journey from Exodus One to Exodus Two, but what was intended at the first is surely to be realized at the Second.??All the Prophets picture a restored and "converted" Israel that walk by the Spirit, have the Torah in the heart, and Love YHVH and their fellow humans first and foremost!?? The good news is that we do not have to wait to experience this.??Any individual who now desires to make covenant with Yehovah, based on these principles, is surely promised a name "better than sons and daughters."?? I find it rather amazing that the Rabbis so wisely included this reading from Jeremiah.??It is a kind of "wink" to the reader, and a signification of things to come, right from the depths of Leviticus, in a Parasha, which perhaps more than any other, epitomizes the system of offerings and sacrifices that Israel began to take up that second year at Sinai. Shabbat Shalom to all, James _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/c9d34d53/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Tue Apr 7 14:33:07 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:33:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com><040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com><004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> Message-ID: <003b01c9b7b7$ae4e6040$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Yes it probably is yet I feel that way about Islam. When in Israel in 86 we stopped beside a school because of a red lite. Approximat 5 yr olds and up started to throw rocks at us, seeing that we may be Israelies or American. These kids have no choice but to hate, as they are trained to hate before they are potty trained. They are not trained to make the world better, just to make everyone Muslim or die. Just another controlled Religion like Catholisism. I'm not sorry I feel this way? Dick L Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam This is a very, very bigoted point of view, Dick; the equivalent of condemning all Jews for killing Jesus. The terrorists that bombed the WTC did not follow any religion, nor do they represent ALL of Islam. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Please anyone, tell me one (1) thing that Islam has done to shape the world for the better?????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in N.Y. but not for the better??? From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/bad93137/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 7 12:31:26 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <855590370904070924k1036ed97q11f9e6b2c414ca1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <635048.77675.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, ? "Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you," is one of the hardest realities of life one faces. I cannot begin to tell you how deeply involved I feel the attacks on the WTC were. I do not think it was just Muslims involved. Where does all the hate stop? Do we each have the choice to stop passing down to the next generation that the Jews killed Jesus( didn't I pound the nails) or that my Mormon neighbor is going to hell or my neighbor 2 doors down wants to kill me because I am not Muslim? There are evil evil people in the world and we cannot control what they do and we certainly should not have to love it. ? Awhile back some Amish people had some of their most precious gifts, their little children, brutally taken from them by a man. They did not question his religion, his motive nor did they feel the need to fight back. What they did do is extend their love and arms out to the mans family. I have asked myself if I would ever be able to do this? ? This line of thinking frustrates the heck out of some people and it does me too at times but what does the TANAK say? Don't we just have to follow the ways of G-d and He will take care of the rest? ? Susie --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 9:24 AM Patty - ? ??? ALL the terrorists who attacked the US on 9/11/2001 were Muslims.? ALL of them... ? ?? Name me one single Iman in the United States, or in any Moslem country that condemned the 9/11 attacks.? Just one.... ? ???? Of COURSE the terrorists?represent Islam... ????????????????????? Hanoch On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Patty wrote: This is a very, very bigoted point of view, Dick; the equivalent of condemning all Jews for killing Jesus. The terrorists that bombed the WTC did not follow any religion, nor do they represent ALL of Islam. ? Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam ? Please anyone, tell me one (1)?thing that Islam has done to shape the world for the better???????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in N.Y. but not for the better???? From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam ? Well ?we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? ? Patty ? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam ? "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. ? Huh??????????????? ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- ? Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ? ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/657251ef/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 7 13:01:02 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:01:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <855590370904070924k1036ed97q11f9e6b2c414ca1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> <855590370904070924k1036ed97q11f9e6b2c414ca1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08f301c9b7aa$d3ce5d50$7b6b17f0$@com> There are good and evil people among ALL religions. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:24 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Patty - ALL the terrorists who attacked the US on 9/11/2001 were Muslims. ALL of them... Name me one single Iman in the United States, or in any Moslem country that condemned the 9/11 attacks. Just one.... Of COURSE the terrorists represent Islam... Hanoch On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:57 AM, Patty wrote: This is a very, very bigoted point of view, Dick; the equivalent of condemning all Jews for killing Jesus. The terrorists that bombed the WTC did not follow any religion, nor do they represent ALL of Islam. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dick L Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Please anyone, tell me one (1) thing that Islam has done to shape the world for the better?????? OH ya ! They reshaped the World trade center in N.Y. but not for the better??? From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Well we were not really at war with mainstream Islam, just the radical terrorists, right? Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Obama declares US not at war with Islam Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer Error! Filename not specified. ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. Error! Filename not specified. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/6025d812/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 7 13:44:37 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:44:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FYI: Muslims Against Terrorism In-Reply-To: <08f301c9b7aa$d3ce5d50$7b6b17f0$@com> References: <551966.42286.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07cd01c9b6fb$fc4a8b00$f4dfa100$@com> <004601c9b7af$8ada1e40$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> <08bb01c9b799$91fd84c0$b5f88e40$@com> <855590370904070924k1036ed97q11f9e6b2c414ca1f@mail.gmail.com> <08f301c9b7aa$d3ce5d50$7b6b17f0$@com> Message-ID: <090101c9b7b0$e895fa80$b9c1ef80$@com> Shalom All, I am seeing on these groups quite the display of racism. The good news is that it appears to be a case of innocent ignorance as opposed to willful malice, for if any had taken the time to do the research, they would find that there are indeed MANY Muslims who have condemned terrorism, and who have publicly stated that: "Those terrorists must be reading a completely different Quran than the rest of us. This isn't about Islam. It's about terrorism." US Marine Corps Captain Aisha Bakkar-Poe. Muslim Leaders/Scholars that have Condemned Terrorism Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians: ?The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).? MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200109/20010917.15.html; Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001/09Sep/14%20Sep%20Fri/Quds02.pdf Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.: ?All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.? Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40545-2001Oct10.html Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic . Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt: ?Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. ... It?s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.? Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001 Abdel-Mo'tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt: ?There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].? Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 - 26 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was ?horrified? by the attack and expressed ?condolences and sadness?: ?[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. ... [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.? Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 - 19 September 2001, http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of Shi?i Muslim radicals in Lebanon, said he was ?horrified? by these ?barbaric ... crimes?: ?Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. ... Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.? Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001 ?Abdulaziz bin ?Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia: ?Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.? Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm ?Abdulaziz bin ?Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia: "You must know Islam?s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance?Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent." Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10 Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia: "As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam." Statement of September 14, 2001, in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 6 Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia: "And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils." Televised statement of September 2001, in Muhammad ibn Hussin Al-Qahtani, editor, The Position of Saudi Muslim Scholars Regarding Terrorism in the Name of Islam (Saudi Arabia, 2004), pages 27-28. Shaykh Muhammad bin ?Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia: ?Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari'a (Islamic law). ... Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari'a.? Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001 Council of Saudi ?Ulama', fatwa of February 2003: "What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. ... Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions." The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003, http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm; also in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10 Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar: "Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur?anic verse which reads: ?Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind? (Al-Ma?idah:32)." Statement of September 13, 2001. http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml. Arabic original at http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2 &item_no=1665&version=1&template_id=130&parent_id=17 Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan: "Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. ... "[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. ... Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for." United Press International, October 18, 2001, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml Ayatollah Ali Khamene?i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran: ?Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. ... It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington.? Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001, http://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml President Muhammad Khatami of Iran: ?[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.? Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001, http://www.president.ir/cronicnews/1380/8008/800818/800818.htm#b3 League of Arab States: ?The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter?s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. ?It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,? he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distancein the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.? September 17, 2001, http://www.leagueofarabstates.org/E_Perspectives_17_09_01.asp Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference: ?Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens. Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam.? Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/press/english/september%202001/america%20on%20attack.htm Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers: ?The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances.? Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001, http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/All%20Download/frmex9.htm Organization of the Islamic Conference, Summit Conference: "We are determined to fight terrorism in all its forms. ... Islam is the religion of moderation. It rejects extremism and isolation. There is a need to confront deviant ideology where it appears, including in school curricula. Islam is the religion of diversity and tolerance." Daily Star (Beirut, Lebanon), December 9, 2005, http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10 &categ_id=2&article_id=20641 Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey: ?Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.? Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, ?A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism,? September 21, 2001, http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author: ?Islam does not encourage any kind of terrorism; in fact, it denounces it. Those who use terrorism in the name of Islam, in fact, have no other faculty except ignorance and hatred.? Harun Yahya, ?Islam Denounces Terrorism,? http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader: ?The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims' relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.? ?Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi,? http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author: ?Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.? ?The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam >From the Terrorists,? http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims: ?We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.? Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001, http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html 15 American Muslim organizations: ?We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.? Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001, http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm 57 leaders of North American Islamic organizations, 77 intellectuals, and dozens of concerned citizens: ?As American Muslims and scholars of Islam, we wish to restate our conviction that peace and justice constitute the basic principles of the Muslim faith. We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda. Usama bin Laden and al-Qaeda's actions are criminal, misguided and counter to the true teachings of Islam.? Statement Rejecting Terrorism, September 9, 2002, http://www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp American Muslim Political Coordination Council: ?American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.? http://capwiz.com/cair/issues/alert/?alertid=49818 &type=CU&azip= Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance: ?These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families.? http://www.amaweb.org/AMA%20Condemns.html Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader: ?Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. ... You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.? San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001, http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author: ?Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral.? ?Making the World Safe for Terrorism,? September 30, 2001, http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim: "I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur'an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment." [On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] "After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing 'Peace Train.' Of course, I agreed. ... As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims." Press release of September 13, 2001, and PR Newswire, October 22, 2001, both at http://www.mountainoflight.co.uk/pages/news/2001.html Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization: ?As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.? http://www.muslimsagainstterrorism.org/aboutus.html. This statement has been replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group's successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace, http://www.mvp-us.org. Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia: ?New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of ?jihad? (?struggle?) - jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad ? ?struggle with one?s own ego and false pride.? I don?t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God?s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?? ?Where Was God on September 11?," http://www.virginia.edu/~soasia/newsletter/Fall01/God.html Ali Khan, professor of law, Washburn University School of Law: ?To the most learned in the text of the Quran, these verses must be read in the context of many other verses that stipulate the Islamic law of war---a war that the Islamic leader must declare after due consultation with advisers. For the less learned, however, these verses may provide the motivation and even the plot for a merciless strike against a self-chosen enemy.? ?Attack on America: An Islamic Perspective, September 17, 2001, http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew29.htm Muqtedar Khan, assistant professor of political science, Adrian College, Michigan, USA: ?What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad. ... If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act? While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).? ?Memo to American Muslims,? October 5, 2001, http://www.ijtihad.org/memo.htm Dr. Alaa Al-Yousuf, Bahraini economist and political activist: ?On Friday, 14 September [the first Friday prayers after 11 September], almost the whole world expressed its condemnation of the crime and its grief for the bereaved families of the victims. Those who abstained or, even worse, rejoiced, will have joined the terrorists, not in the murder, but in adding to the incalculable damage on the other victims of the atrocity, namely, Islam as a faith, Muslims and Arabs as peoples, and possibly the Palestinian cause. The terrorists and their apologists managed to sully Islam as a faith both in the eyes of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike.? Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm Dr. S. Parvez Manzoor, Swedish-based Muslim author: ?If these acts of terror indeed have been perpetrated by Muslim radicals or fundamentalists, they have reaped nothing but eternal damnation, shame and ignominy. For nothing, absolutely nothing, could remotely be advanced as an excuse for these barbaric acts. They represent a total negation of Islamic values, an utter disregard of our fiqhi tradition, and a slap in the face of the Ummah. They are in total contrast to what Islamic reason, compassion and faith stand for. Even from the more mundane criteria of common good, the maslaha of the jurists, these acts are treasonous and suicidal. Islamic faith has been so callously and casually sacrificed at the altar of politics, a home-grown politics of parochial causes, primeval passions, self-endorsing piety and messianic terror.? Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London, http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Islamic activist and former deputy prime minister: ?Never in Islam's entire history has the action of so few of its followers caused the religion and its community of believers to be such an abomination in the eyes of others. Millions of Muslims who fled to North America and Europe to escape poverty and persecution at home have become the object of hatred and are now profiled as potential terrorists. And the nascent democratic movements in Muslim countries will regress for a few decades as ruling autocrats use their participation in the global war against terrorism to terrorize their critics and dissenters. This is what Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists and sponsors have done to Islam and its community worldwide by their murder of innocents at the World Trade Center in New York and the Defense Depart-ment in Washington. The attack must be condemned, and the condemnation must be without reservation.? Anwar Ibrahim, ?Growth of Democracy Is the Answer to Terrorism,? International Herald Tribune, October 11, 2001, http://www.iht.com/articles/35281.htm Ziauddin Sardar, British Muslim author: ?The failure of Islamic movements is their inability to come to terms with modernity, to give modernity a sustainable home-grown expression. Instead of engaging with the abundant problems that bedevil Muslim lives, the Islamic prescription consists of blind following of narrow pieties and slavish submission to inept obscurantists. Instead of engagement with the wider world, they have made Islam into an ethic of separation, separate under-development, and negation of the rest of the world.? Ziauddin Sardar, ?Islam has become its own enemy,? The Observer, October 21, 2001, http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,577942,00.html Khaled Abou El Fadl, Kuwaiti-Egyptian-American legal scholar: ?It would be disingenuous to deny that the Qur'an and other Islamic sources offer possibilities of intolerant interpretation. Clearly these possibilities are exploited by the contemporary puritans and supremacists. But the text does not command such intolerant readings. Historically, Islamic civilization has displayed a remarkable ability to recognize possibilities of tolerance, and to act upon these possibilities.? Khaled Abou El Fadl, ?The Place of Tolerance in Islam: On Reading the Qur'an -- and Misreading It,? Boston Review, December 2001/January 2002, http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.6/elfadl.html Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, Palestinian-American mufti and member of the North American Fiqh Council: ?The people who attacked the WTC and Pentagon and hijacked the forth plane that crashed in Pennsylvania are criminal who deserve the severest punishment as the Quran elaborates. They are murderers and terrorists. If there were any person who felt happy for that incident we would not be able to equate them with those criminals, but we can say no one with faith and ethics would accept anything of that murder and targeting of innocent people.? Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, "Fatwa Session on Latest Tragic Events," IslamOnline, September 20, 2001, http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=pdwD2E Syed Shahabuddin, Indian Muslim author: ?Islam prohibits terrorism as well as suicide. Jihad is neither and has no place for taking innocent lives or one?s own life. No cause, howsoever noble or just, can justify terrorism. So while one may sympathize with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and support their claim to a state of their own, while one may appreciate the democratic awakening among the people of many Muslim states and uphold their demand for withdrawal of foreign presence from their soil and support their struggle for revision of the terms of trade for their natural resources, no thinking Muslim can go along with the use of terrorism for securing political goals.? Syed Shahabuddin, "Global war against terrorism ? the Islamic dimension," Milli Gazette newspaper, New Delhi, India, November 1, 2001, http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112001/34.htm Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, principal of the Muslim College, London, England: ?Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime.? Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, "Terrorism has no place in Islam," Arab News, Jiddah-Riyadh-Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, September 28, 2001, http://www.arabnews.com/?page=5 §ion=0&article=9314&d=28&m=9&y=2001 Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, head mufti at Jamiat-ul-Uloom-ul-Islamia seminary, Binori Town, Pakistan and a leader of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party, Pakistan: ?It's wrong to kill innocent people. ... It's also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people.? The New York Times, September 28, 2001, p. B3 Shaykh Omar Bakri, leader of al-Muhajirun, a radical Islamist movement based in London, England: ?If Islamists did it -- and most likely it is Islamists, because of the nature of what happened -- then they have fully misunderstood the teachings of Islam. ... Even the most radical of us have condemned this. I am always considered to be a radical in the Islamic world and even I condemn it.? The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec, Canada), September 13, 2001, p. B6 Zuhair Qudah, a preacher at al-Lawzieen mosque, Amman, Jordan: "We stand by our Palestinian brothers in their struggle to end the occupation, but we don't condone violence, ugly crimes and the killing of innocent people." Associated Press, September 14, 2001 Salih bin Muhammad Lahidan, chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia: ?Killing the weak, infants, women, and the elderly, and destroying property, are considered serious crimes in Islam. . . . Viewing on the TV networks what happened to the twin towers . . . was like watching doomsday. Those who commit such crimes are the worst of people. Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong. . . . This barbaric act is not justified by any sane mind-set. . . . This act is pernicious and shameless and evil in the extreme.? The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9 Shaykh Rached Ghannouchi, chairman of Tunisia's an-Nahda Movement, in exile in London, England: ?Such destruction can only be condemned by any Muslim, however resentful one may be of America's biased policies supporting occupation in Palestine, as an unacceptable attack on thousands of innocent people having no relation to American policies. Anyone familiar with Islam has no doubt about its rejection of collective punishment, based on the well-known Quranic principle that 'no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another.'? The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9 Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia: ?Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America ? and in Allaah lies success ? that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.? "Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs...," October 18, 2001, translated by Abu 'Iyaad, http://www.fatwaonline.com/news/0011018.htm Dr. Sayed G. Safavi, Iranian religious scholar and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England: ?The targeting of innocent persons cannot be allowed. Islam is against any form of terrorism, whether it be carried out by an individual, a group or a state. ... For Muslims to kill civilians unconnected with any attack on them is a crime. The principal law of Islam is: don't attack civilians. This includes civilians of any faith, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian. According to Islam, all people are the family of God. The target of religion is peace.? Letter to the Editor, The Daily Telegraph, London, England, June 30, 2003, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/06/30/dt3001.xml Iqbal Siddiqui, editor of Crescent International, London, England: ?History also teaches us that the only effective way of challenging oppression and the only effective way of fighting injustice is through force; that is simply the way of the world. Pacifism is all too often a weapon of the status quo.... When Islamic movements in the world do need to resort to the use of force, that force must be used morally. When extreme fringes of those movements are pushed to use force indiscriminately, immorally, wrongly against illegitimate targets, and using illegitimate weapons (such [as] hijacked jumbo jets), those are crimes for which the people who share their cause, who share their view of the world, their understanding of the need to use force, must also criticise them, turn against them, isolate them. Our standards must be higher than those of the people whom we are fighting, because if we descend to their standards then there is no difference between us.? Iqbal Siddiqui, "Terrorism and political violence in contemporary history," Conference on Terrorism, Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England, November 13, 2001, published in Muslimedia International, February 16-28, 2002, http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement02/terror-hist.htm. Earlier version on-line at http://www.islamic-studies.org/terrorconfer.pro.htm Islamway website: "In light of these and other Islamic texts, the act of inciting terror in the hearts of defenseless civilians, the wholesale destruction of buildings and properties, the bombing and maiming of innocent men, women, and children are all forbidden and detestable acts according to Islam and the Muslims." "What Does Islam Say About Terrorism?" http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article &id=126 Islamic Commission of Spain: "Muslims, therefore, are not only forbidden from committing crimes against innocent people, but are responsible before God to stop those people who have the intention to do so, since these people 'are planting the seeds of corruption on Earth'.... The perpetration of terrorist acts supposes a rupture of such magnitude with Islamic teaching that it allows to affirm that the individuals or groups who have perpetrated them have stopped being Muslim and have put themselves outside the sphere of Islam." "Text of the Fatwa Declared Against Osama Bin Laden by the Islamic Commission of Spain," March 17, 2005, http://webislam.com/?idn=537; original Spanish version: "La Comisi?n Isl?mica de Espa?a emite una fatua condenando el terrorismo y al grupo Al Qaida," March 10, 2005, http://www.webislam.com/?idn=399. Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams: "Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. ... The Holy Quran declares: 'Whoever kills a human being? then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.' (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam?s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity." British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005, http://www.britishmuslimforum.org/view_press_release.php?id=26. Fiqh Council of North America, an association of 18 Muslim legal scholars, fatwa endorsed by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Association of Muslim Social Scientists (AMSS), the Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers (AMSE), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and more than 130 Muslim organizations, mosques and leaders in the United States: "We have consistently condemned terrorism and extremism in all forms and under all circumstances, and we reiterate this unequivocal position. Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram - prohibited in Islam - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not 'martyrs.'" "Fatwa by U.S. Muslims Against Religious Extremism," July 25, 2005, http://www.mpac.org/bucket_downloads/fatwa-on-terrorism.pdf. Islamic Society of North America, Anti-Terrrorism Anti-Extremism Committee: "Humanity lives today in an interdependent and interconnected world where peaceful and fair interaction, including interfaith and intra-faith dialogue, is imperative. A grave threat to all of us nowadays is the scourge of religious and political extremism that manifests itself in various forms of violence, including terrorism. In the absence of a universally agreed upon definition of terrorism, it may be defined as any act of indiscriminate violence that targets innocent people, whether committed by individuals, groups or states. As Muslims, we must face up to our responsibility to clarify and advocate a faith-based, righteous and moral position with regard to this problem, especially when terrorist acts are perpetrated in the name of Islam. The purpose of this brochure is to clarify a few key issues relating to this topic, not because of external pressures or for the sake of ?political correctness?, but out of our sincere conviction of what Islam stands for." Islamic Society of North America, "Against Terrorism and Religious Extremism: Muslim Position and Responsibilities," 2005, http://www.balancedislam.org/ATAECbrochure.pdf. Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia: The London attacks, "targeting peaceful people, are not condoned by Islam, and are indeed prohibited by our religion. ... Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion." Fatwa-Online, July 9, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050709.htm Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhaab al-'Aqeel, professor of creed ('aqeedah) at the College of Proselytising (da'wah), Islamic University of Madinah, Saudi Arabia: "Terrorism is the terror that is caused by those groups or individuals who resort to killing and wreaking havoc and destruction. Terrorism is therefore, according to the contemporary compilers of modern Arabic dictionaries, killing akin to the riotous killing that is mentioned within the texts of Shar'eeah. As the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wassallam) mentioned with regards to the signs of the end of time, the spread of 'al-Harj' (riotous killing). The meaning of 'al-Harj' is killing and the increase of the spilling blood, which is all from the signs of the end of time. To the extent that the one killing will not know why he is killing and the one that was killed will not know why he/she was killed. Islam is free from this riotous killing, free from this terrorism and free from this kind of corruption. Terrorism is established upon destruction of properties such as factories, farms, places of worship, train stations, airports and the likes; Islam is clearly free from such actions that are based upon corruption and not upon rectification. Terrorists usually say that they are going against the state in which they are based within. This is like the mafia or other criminal organisations that are based on killing people, causing fear and taking their monies. Such criminal organisations have leaders, deputies and individuals that are responsible for establishing regulations for the organisation and individuals responsible for carrying out attacks, and all of them are terrorists causing corruption on the earth. However the ugliest face of terrorism is that which is established in the name of religion, all of the religions from the Prophets (peace be upon them) are free from such terrorism, even if some of the followers of the Prophets participated in such terrorist activities, but the Prophets are free from such corruptions." Lecture on "The Evils of Terrorism," August 20, 2005, translated in Islam Against Terrorism - v1.20, September 17, 2005, http://www.fatwa-online.com/downloads/dow004/islamagainstterrorism.chm Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Malaysian Muslim scholar and research fellow in Islamic philosophy and theology, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, U.K.: "If you still insist that your [religious or civil] authority should declare war with the non-Muslim state upon which you wish war to be declared, then the most you could do in this capacity is to lobby your authority for it. However, if your anger is so unrestrained that its fire brings out the worst in you to the point that your disagreement with your Muslim authority leads you to declare war on those you want your authority to declare war on, and you end up resorting to violence, then know with certainty that you have violated our own religious Laws. For then you will have taken the Shari'a into your own hands." Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Defending the Transgressed by Censuring the Reckless against the Killing of Civilians, Germany: Warda Publications, and United Kingdom: Aqsa Press, 2005, p.49, http://www.warda.info/fatwa.pdf Abd al-Hakim Murad, British Muslim scholar: "This is a decadence that is profound. And that it happens in the holy land is particularly worrying. Near the muqads?t, where we are particularly required to conform entirely to the ad?b of the Shari?ah. This is a deep subversion. And as for those who think that for reasons of masfahah that the door can be opened there, but somehow that door will remain closed elsewhere in the world, that this door can be opened because the Palestinians are so oppressed and somehow it?s going to help them, but of course we keep it closed in Chechnya and Kahsmir and certainly in London, that logic doesn?t seem to have worked too well. That rage, that desire to self annihilation, to lash out and the men, women and children, whoever in the vicinity, is now becoming a global epidemic. And the ?ulama who opened the little door now see these legions rushing through it in every place don?t know what to do about it. That door has to be closed. Islam is too good for such practices, for such baseness, for such wild expression of futility and despair and vindictiveness." Interview, December 16-18, 2005, London-Leeds-Manchester, http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content &task=view&id=33&Itemid=45 Islamic Society of North America: "The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) condemns in the strongest terms the recent acts of terrorism in Glasgow, London and Yemen. We reaffirm our long-standing, unqualified condemnation of all acts of terrorism and all acts of violence committed against the innocent, and our denunciation of religious extremism and particularly the use of Islam to justify terrorism in any of its forms*. We sympathize with the victims of these senseless attacks and offer our heart-felt condolences to the families who have lost their dear ones." Islamic Society of North America Statement in Response to Recent Bombings, July 10, 2007, http://www.isna.net/index.php?id=35 &backPID=1&tt_news=884 Maulana Marghubur Rahman, organizer of "Anti-Terrorism Convention" and rector of the Dar ul-Ulum Deoband madrasa, India: "We condemn all forms of terrorism ... and in this we make no distinction. Terrorism is completely wrong, no matter who engages in it, and no matter what religion he follows or community he belongs to." February 2008, translated by Yoginder Sikand, http://www.twocircles.net/2008mar11/deobands_anti_terrorism_convention_some_reflections.html See also: Bernard Haykel, assistant professor of Islamic law at New York University: "According to Islamic law there are at least six reasons why Bin Laden's barbaric violence cannot fall under the rubric of jihad: 1) Individuals and organizations cannot declare a jihad, only states can; 2) One cannot kill innocent women and children when conducting a jihad; 3) One cannot kill Muslims in a jihad; 4) One cannot fight a jihad against a country in which Muslims can freely practise their religion and proselytize Islam; 5) Prominent Muslim jurists around the world have condemned these attacks and their condemnation forms a juristic consensus (ijma') against Bin Laden's actions (This consensus renders his actions un-Islamic); 6) The welfare and interest of the Muslim community (maslaha) is being harmed by Bin Laden's actions and this equally makes them un-Islamic." The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, October 8, 2001, http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/08/op.htm#2 Next: Muslim Groups Against Terrorism patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/4da53c0f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 7 15:23:54 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:23:54 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. Message-ID: <040720092023.15015.49DBB659000E9B3400003AA722230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Read them carefully, it will take some time. http://www.islamicsummit.org.sa/en/9-9.aspx http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngo_forum_at_durban_conference_ http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/e06a5300f90fa0238025668700518ca4/5ccb9aef32a51edcc1256a990051ac81/$FILE/G0114570.doc http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/pdf/intersession_open_ended19109.pdf -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/22a63d29/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 17:25:32 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:25:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mystical Paths: Passover Screen Cleaner Message-ID: <49DBD2DC.7070405@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/809a1d34/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 7 18:32:41 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:32:41 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] PASSOVER. Message-ID: <49DBE299.5030008@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/b7dd923f/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Tue Apr 7 18:49:16 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:49:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Amazing Photos In-Reply-To: <1668C51AE42C43198E1F029F5D76BA46@SEWVAC011> References: <49D66DE0.E517A.6631@pop.directnic.com> <1668C51AE42C43198E1F029F5D76BA46@SEWVAC011> Message-ID: <49DBE67C.3060407@gninc.ca> Stephen, those photo's are great shots, and really quite a drama stephen wrote: > > These are just some amazing photos. > > http://www.realitytvlounge.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20080 > > Stephen > _______________________________________________ > From correim at gninc.ca Tue Apr 7 19:03:43 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:03:43 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Min HaMetzar - from the depths In-Reply-To: <49D7515E.2090409@westnet.com.au> References: <49D7515E.2090409@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49DBE9DF.3040901@gninc.ca> That is very beautiful Joe Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > */Let us not forget the legacy of HaShem's Covenant People > and the message that they carry for the blessing of all humanity. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > /*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MGcvYvZBE&NR=1 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/0690d90d/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Tue Apr 7 19:34:00 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:34:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PASSOVER. In-Reply-To: <49DBE299.5030008@westnet.com.au> References: <49DBE299.5030008@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <49DBF0F8.2050407@gninc.ca> Thank you Joe Cornie JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > /Shalom Chaverim, > > for those who are not fortunate to be able to attend a Pesach Seder, I > would like to forward to you what the Haggadah is all about. > /http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=416&ar=13333&ak=null > > /Blessings and I will be thinking of you. > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/2c883411/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Apr 7 19:39:35 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:39:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" In-Reply-To: <220580.99042.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <220580.99042.qm@web180101.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeremy, Sorry to be so late in answering. I was away for a couple of days without a computer. No, I have no documentation. This was during our conversion to Orthodox Judaism, almost 20 years ago. Our Rabbi was an Internationally respected Rabbi. Passover was approaching and he was teaching us in detail (as was his usual habit) about the upcoming festival. He explained that Orthodox families eat what is known as a "last supper" of leavened bread the evening before the first Passover Seder. I thought it impolitic to blurt out, "Wow, that explains the New Testament!" - so didn't comment, but I found that information stunning! It made so much sense, and I immediately thought of Judas sopping his bread! Wish I could be of more help. Not sure that any Jewish sites would have an article about the fact that that meal is called the "last supper" of leavened bread. Hope you can find a reference to it, Avigail From: Jeremy Long Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 1:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" Avigail, Do you happen to have any sources for this? I would love to read more about this. I googled it but have not gotten any results I like as of yet. Thank You in advance Jeremy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patricia Robbins To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 7:20:03 AM Subject: [Dialogue] "Last Supper" I remember when our Rabbi was teaching us about Judaism, and we were approaching Passover, he said that the last meal of leavened bread is referred to as the last supper, because it is the last supper of leavened bread. You will also remember that Judas "sopped" his bread, which he couldn?t have done with matzah. Avigail -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/b3754880/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Apr 7 19:45:33 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:45:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <040620092101.14168.49DA6D92000848270000375822230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Yeah, DOUBLE HUH??????????? From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:01 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Huh??????????????? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from oneillcody at yahoo.com: -------------- Obama declares US not at war with Islam Apr 6 08:58 AM US/Eastern By TOM RAUM Associated Press Writer ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Barack Obama, making his first visit to a Muslim nation as president, declared Monday the United States "is not and will never be at war with Islam." Calling for a greater partnership with the Islamic world in an address to the Turkish parliament, Obama called the country an important U.S. ally in many areas, including the fight against terrorism. He devoted much of his speech to urging a greater bond between Americans and Muslims, portraying terrorist groups such as al Qaida as extremists who did not represent the vast majority of Muslims. "Let me say this as clearly as I can," Obama said. "The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical ... in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject." The U.S. president is trying to mend fences with a Muslim world that felt it had been blamed by America for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyia, two of the biggest Arabic satellite channels, carried Obama's speech live. Obama said the partnership between the U.S. and the Muslim world is critical in rolling back what he called a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject. "America's relationship with the Muslim world cannot and will not be based on opposition to al Qaida," he said. "We seek broad engagement based upon mutual interests and mutual respect." "We will convey our deep appreciation for the Islamic faith, which has done so much over so many centuries to shape the world for the better, including my own country," Obama said. Obama also said, to a round of applause, that the United States supports Turkey becoming a member of the European Union. Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/e1b914e8/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Apr 7 20:04:57 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:04:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. In-Reply-To: <49DB0BA4.1020902@westnet.com.au> References: <49DB0BA4.1020902@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: TERRIFIC, JOE! THIS IS SOOOOO COOL!!!!!! From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 4:15 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. THE HAND OF HASHEM A dying star creates an image being referred to as the "Hand of God". In a new image from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, high-energy X-rays emanating from the nebula around PSR B1509-58 have been colored blue to reveal a structure resembling a hand reaching for some eternal red cosmic light. More here and here May we merit to see the Hand of HaShem during this season of freedom. Note the hand is taking the crown. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/eee727dd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/eee727dd/attachment.jpe From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 7 21:39:20 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:39:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. In-Reply-To: References: <49DB0BA4.1020902@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: AWESOME!!! Thanks, Joe! Chag Sameach!!! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Robbins Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:05 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. TERRIFIC, JOE! THIS IS SOOOOO COOL!!!!!! From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 4:15 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] THE HAND OF HASHEM. THE HAND OF HASHEM A dying star creates an image being referred to as the "Hand of God". In a new image from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory, high-energy X-rays emanating from the nebula around PSR B1509-58 have been colored blue to reveal a structure resembling a hand reaching for some eternal red cosmic light. More here and here May we merit to see the Hand of HaShem during this season of freedom. Note the hand is taking the crown. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/b7bef2bb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 13850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/b7bef2bb/attachment.jpe From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 7 21:46:32 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 21:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Blessing of the Sun & Chag Sameach!!!! Message-ID: <2E6BE91C6C604FABBE1DD7B4192E654F@bettylaptop> Friends, just in case I don't have time tomorrow, I just wanted to wish all of you a CHAG SAMEACH!!! Have a beautiful and meaningful Pesach, with the hope of Next Year in Y'rushalyim!!! And hope to see many of you in a couple of weeks at our upcoming conference in Charlotte. I can hardly wait! Love and Shalom, Elisheva/Betty P.S. Remember the special blessing for the sun is tomorrow at sunrise! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/8d59aefc/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Apr 7 22:54:44 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:54:44 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Message-ID: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption. He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones. My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear. True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved." Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night. This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/d770b4ed/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Tue Apr 7 23:08:53 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 23:08:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904072108v1ec9c719waf5a54d65ed7ea16@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for this, Steve. I will be with my children on the first and second nights of Pesach, but they will be going to their father's house for the pagan holiday this weekend on Friday. I was upset about being alone for Friday and for Sabbath. Your message has inspired me to spend the weekend at the synagogue...reading the siddur. Kim On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, > > Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. > > As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, > contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we > have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption. He just > may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder > individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the > Valley of Dry Bones. My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, > but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We > are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be > delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this > "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in > priming ourselves to hear. True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called > us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. > > The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we consider > that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but > one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were > being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, > and "saved." Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of > anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings > 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee > upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah > may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of > Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). > > The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be > remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). > It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night. > This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for > the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again > we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). > > The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is > broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, > which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the > idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were > "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). > It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to > be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to > their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually > dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. > > The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking > for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. > 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit > themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work of > Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). > > Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what > HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. > > May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us > all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. > > Steve > > "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." > > http://www.uniteourheart.com > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090407/cadba188/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 8 05:15:05 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 06:15:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Thanks for these thoughts Steve. Hag Sameach to all, and spiritual insight and strength of purpose, James On Apr 7, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, > > Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach > night. > > As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent > meditation, contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have > thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer > to the Redemption. He just may have something to tell us then and > there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as > "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones. My > hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to > listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We are > living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" > will be delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves > to do this "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work > may be will help in priming ourselves to hear. True, we are > HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned > to all of us. > > The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we > consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a > great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that > the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of > HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved." Most importantly > we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to > "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to > "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine > hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah > may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee > out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). > > The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be > remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, > 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the > second night. This night, we also need to look forward in our > history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to > all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current > Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). > > The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that > is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten > Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they > went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out > of the Land, and were "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands > found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). It is called the afikomen, meaning > a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, > unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite > identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, > which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. > > The little child that finds it, and the little children that are > looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm > 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and > "reinherit themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in > the Great Work of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). > > Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about > what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. > > May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire > us all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. > > Steve > > "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." > > http://www.uniteourheart.com > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/81c38205/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 8 06:04:41 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 07:04:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Joel Osteen teaches NO pork or shellfish! References: Message-ID: <03DC80BA-7F41-4A1D-BD2D-304B505B8D7E@earthlink.net> Most interesting. And as Ross just remarked to me, just as we are reading this portion of the Torah... James > > > From one of his services - 3 minute video > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrJkFBEt_c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/34b1cdef/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 8 08:43:49 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:43:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: References: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Yes, Steve, thank you.I am so busy in the midst of preparing for Pesach, that I didn't have time to read your post thoroughly, but am looking forward to reading it on Pesach. Chag Sameach to you and your family and to all! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 5:15 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Thanks for these thoughts Steve. Hag Sameach to all, and spiritual insight and strength of purpose, James On Apr 7, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption. He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones. My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear. True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved." Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night. This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/6ccb3c83/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 8 08:50:10 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:50:10 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904072108v1ec9c719waf5a54d65ed7ea16@mail.gmail.com> References: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> <1c8dbb6e0904072108v1ec9c719waf5a54d65ed7ea16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <62199FC1B44C4D1393A058141C90EEF8@bettylaptop> Beautiful, Kim! It sounds like you are going to turn what could have been a potentially lonely time into a time of blessing and drawing closer to HaShem. (Thank you, Steve, for the wonderful encouragement that your provide us!) May your and Jana and Skip be richly blessed during both seders and may you be enriched by your weekend at the synagogue! My heart will be with you.especially when it is time to sing Daiyanu and have the kids open the door and look for Eliahyhu! I love you, Mom And Chag Samaech to all! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Thank you for this, Steve. I will be with my children on the first and second nights of Pesach, but they will be going to their father's house for the pagan holiday this weekend on Friday. I was upset about being alone for Friday and for Sabbath. Your message has inspired me to spend the weekend at the synagogue...reading the siddur. Kim On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption. He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones. My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear. True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved." Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night. This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/8692fde8/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 09:13:57 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 07:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Message-ID: <765106.28640.qm@web58508.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Steve, Thank you! ? --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 10:54 PM Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point,? I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and? listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption.? He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones.? My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear."? We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us.? By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work."? Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear.? True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point? is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved."? Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night.? This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden"? into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29).?? It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, "? (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves,"? (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work? of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all...? this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/4f46cf83/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Wed Apr 8 09:32:43 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:32:43 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] To you All... Message-ID: <69500E847E9E4C3689627D079808282F@Beeblebrox> Greetings All, Just to say we are thinking of you all, our beloved brethren across the world, as we prepare for Passover and Unleavened Bread. In the light of this full moon, as we look forward to remembering our redemption and contemplating the coming redemption of all, it is so good to know that you are all 'out there' - thinking similar things, getting rid of the leaven, eating the unleavened bread, drinking the cups, reading the Torah, praying, seeking.... Our love to you All, Shalom to all Israel! Stephen and Sharon P.S. Joe, Jessica, Catherine and the others in the nether parts of the earth (lol!), you are probably well into the Festival already! Blessings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/51d6a19e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 8 09:36:16 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:36:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Joel Osteen teaches NO pork or shellfish! In-Reply-To: <03DC80BA-7F41-4A1D-BD2D-304B505B8D7E@earthlink.net> References: <03DC80BA-7F41-4A1D-BD2D-304B505B8D7E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I was very encouraged by this teaching from Joel Osteen, and sent it to a number of Christian friends and family. I thought his teaching it now was extremely good timing on a number of levels, not the least being the fact that so many Christians find it congruous to serve ham on Easter! - Just a side note here about the word "Easter." I'm quoting from page 103 in Alexander Hislop's classic book, The Two Babylons: "What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people of Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar." Hislop is saying that Ishtar was actually pronounced as "Easter" by the people of ancient Nineveh! - No wonder Jonah didn't want to go to Nineveh! The people of Nineveh believed that the Queen of Heaven fell from Heaven into the Euphrates River, having arrived in "an egg of wondrous size!" >From that belief came the practice of coloring eggs for Istar! (This information, along with an accompanying ancient illustration, can be found on page 108 of Hislop's book) Hag Sameach to all, and BARUCH HASHEM for His TORAH OF LIGHT!!!!! Avigail/Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:04 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: Joel Osteen teaches NO pork or shellfish! Most interesting. And as Ross just remarked to me, just as we are reading this portion of the Torah... James From one of his services - 3 minute video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJrJkFBEt_c -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/78559948/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 8 10:05:08 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:05:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: <62199FC1B44C4D1393A058141C90EEF8@bettylaptop> References: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com><1c8dbb6e0904072108v1ec9c719waf5a54d65ed7ea16@mail.gmail.com> <62199FC1B44C4D1393A058141C90EEF8@bettylaptop> Message-ID: So fantastic to read all your emails!!! I loved Steve's reminder that the first night's Seder should be eaten with watchfulness and in haste (not daring even to step outside), as did our ancestors on this night so long ago. Reminds me of how my husband used to have us eat our family Passover meal. He would sit with his keys to the car in his hands as he ate!!!! He figured that was like having his staff in his hand and being ready to go at a moment's notice should HaShem speak!!!!! I too feel an anticipation of HaShem speaking to us this Passover, Steve, and will be listening as you have encouraged us to do. Hag HaMatzot Sameach, Dear Family, Love, Avigail/Pat From: Betty Givin Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 9:50 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Beautiful, Kim! It sounds like you are going to turn what could have been a potentially lonely time into a time of blessing and drawing closer to HaShem. (Thank you, Steve, for the wonderful encouragement that your provide us!) May your and Jana and Skip be richly blessed during both seders and may you be enriched by your weekend at the synagogue! My heart will be with you.especially when it is time to sing Daiyanu and have the kids open the door and look for Eliahyhu! I love you, Mom And Chag Samaech to all! Elisheva/Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:09 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points Thank you for this, Steve. I will be with my children on the first and second nights of Pesach, but they will be going to their father's house for the pagan holiday this weekend on Friday. I was upset about being alone for Friday and for Sabbath. Your message has inspired me to spend the weekend at the synagogue...reading the siddur. Kim On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Steve Mathe wrote: Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point, I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption. He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones. My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear." We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us. By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work." Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear. True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved." Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night. This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden" into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29). It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, " (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves," (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all... this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/2a25c1c7/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Apr 8 10:11:03 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:11:03 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] PR for Pesach 2009 Message-ID: <200904081511.n38FB1lg026260@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Dear Friends, As most of you know, I am collecting answers to prayer that we receive. I think this is most important, for with our prayers we are building the "Mishkan of Prayers" which is to be a dwelling place for the Shechinah, the guiding Presence of G-d's holy Spirit. We need this Guidance to lead us out of the isms, religious concepts and philosophies of the wilderness of the nations. We also need these to be informed by G-d as to what we need to do and what is happening. I call these "PRs" for short, PRIVATE REVELATIONS. If you get these during or after your prayers, please fill out a report sheet at http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer%20research%20form.html and mail it back to me. Am sending you one of these PRs that someone has sent me. It corroborates the sense of a lot of us that this Pesach is to be a special one. "This morning while in prayer, the Holy Spirit gave me this scripture concerning the deep impression I had. Isaiah 49:22 Thus says the LORD GOD: "Behold, I will lift My hand in an oath to the nations, And set up My standard for the peoples: They shall bring your sons in their arms, And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders; Kings shall be your foster father, And their queens your nursing mothers: They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth, And lick up the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD, For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me." I feel very strongly in my spirit this Pesach, that this night is different from all other nights. Why? We are being brought back." We need to talk to G-d about this at length. Everyone, please talk to God about this PR and LISTEN to what more He may tell us. Chag Sameach, Shalom v'ahavah, Steve http://www.uniteourheart.com "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/55e138ce/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 8 10:25:16 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:25:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A White House Seder In-Reply-To: <200904081511.n38FB1lg026260@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200904081511.n38FB1lg026260@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <0a6a01c9b85e$3f9b9fd0$bed2df70$@com> Shalom! Most of you know that Obama was not my pick, but I have found this to be very interesting...encouraging? http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/img/blog_header_washington.jpg A White House Seder April 7, 2009 Here's something that will make Thursday night different from all other nights: "President Obama and his family will mark the beginning of Passover with a Seder at the White House with friends and staff," the White House announced in its guidance for reporters last night. We're not sure a President has ever held a Seder before. The Jerusalem Post notes that staff have celebrated the holiday at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., but their sources couldn't think of a commander in chief who sat down for the matzo and bitter herbs. The holiday actually starts tonight, but Thursday is the first full day. - Michael McAuliff -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/4b00ea43/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 30673 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/4b00ea43/attachment.jpe From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 8 10:35:13 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:35:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A White House Seder In-Reply-To: <0a6a01c9b85e$3f9b9fd0$bed2df70$@com> References: <200904081511.n38FB1lg026260@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> <0a6a01c9b85e$3f9b9fd0$bed2df70$@com> Message-ID: Thank you for this, Patty! Hag Sameach, Pat From: Patty Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 11:25 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] A White House Seder Shalom! Most of you know that Obama was not my pick, but I have found this to be very interesting...encouraging? A White House Seder April 7, 2009 Here's something that will make Thursday night different from all other nights: "President Obama and his family will mark the beginning of Passover with a Seder at the White House with friends and staff," the White House announced in its guidance for reporters last night. We're not sure a President has ever held a Seder before. The Jerusalem Post notes that staff have celebrated the holiday at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., but their sources couldn't think of a commander in chief who sat down for the matzo and bitter herbs. The holiday actually starts tonight, but Thursday is the first full day. - Michael McAuliff -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/1de2a0f7/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 30673 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/1de2a0f7/attachment.jpe From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 8 10:42:21 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:42:21 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Blessing of the Sun & Chag Sameach!!!! In-Reply-To: <2E6BE91C6C604FABBE1DD7B4192E654F@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <040820091542.19334.49DCC5DD00007EB400004B8622230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Betty, and All, Chag Sameach to you and yours as well. May this be a time of reflection, inspiration and renewed closeness to HaShem and each other to guide us all through the times to come. Brachot v'Ahavat. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Friends, just in case I don?t have time tomorrow, I just wanted to wish all of you a CHAG SAMEACH!!! Have a beautiful and meaningful Pesach, with the hope of Next Year in Y?rushalyim!!! And hope to see many of you in a couple of weeks at our upcoming conference in Charlotte. I can hardly wait! Love and Shalom, Elisheva/Betty P.S. Remember the special blessing for the sun is tomorrow at sunrise! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/ff4997f0/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 8 10:57:10 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points In-Reply-To: <200904080354.n383sfPE026040@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <598409.6668.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear All, ? How goosebumpy I felt this morning looking at the sun and saying the blessing to Hashem!! It is surreal at times to know how much this sun has witnessed over time and who it has shone down on. In preparing my charoset I was paying special attention to it's consistency to make sure it was just like mortar and thinking of all the blood, sweat and tears it represented. I was thinking how easy my life has been compared to?the Israelites in Eygpt. Hashem was pressing upon me that the upcoming times might not seem that easy to me, that there are things He has asked me to do that will require sacrifice, perserverance and deep trust. He reminded me of the land of Goshen, how He will always be with me and that He has the power to part the waters for me to walk on dry ground! ? Blessings, Susie --- On Tue, 4/7/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Three Pesach points To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 8:54 PM Friends, Israelites, Countrymen, Three points I want to emphasize for all to consider on this Pesach night. As the first point,? I recommend that we all do some silent meditation, contemplating and? listening to HaShem after we have thanked Him that we have reached one more Pesach bringing us closer to the Redemption.? He just may have something to tell us then and there and/or throughout the Seder individually and collectively as "the remnant" of early returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones.? My hunch is that we are not to do and think as always, but we need to listen, and listen more then ever, expecting to "hear."? We are living at the turning point of history and our calling to "work" will be delineated to us.? By "listening" we are preparing ourselves to do this "work."? Dedicating ourselves to do whatever that work may be will help in priming ourselves to hear.? True, we are HaShem's Work, and, He has called us to do work He has apportioned to all of us. The second point? is that as we look backward into our history, we consider that the Pesach meal was eaten in haste, and it was not a great revelry, but one of somber and of most serious awareness that the firstborn of Egypt were being killed, while the firstborn of HaShem, Israel, was being protected, and "saved."? Most importantly we, as returnees after 2700 years of anonymity are being called to "come near" to the table of G-d, (I Kings 18:30), we are to "remember" that this is to be kept for "a sign unto thee upon thine hand and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the L-rd's Torah may be in thy mouth for with a strong hand has the L-rd brought thee out of Egypt." (Exodus, 13:9). The great revelry and celebration was for the night that was to be remembered for their deliverance and exodus from Egypt, (Ex. 13:8, 15:1-20). It is more appropriate to have the big celebration on the second night.? This night, we also need to look forward in our history, and thank G-d for the deliverance that He has promised to all the Tribes of Israel, when again we shall leave our current Egypts with a high hand, (Jer. 16: 14-21). The third point is that the larger piece of the middle matza, that is broken off from the whole piece, (Zech. 11:14), signifies the Ten Tribes, which was broken off the Commonwealth of Israel, when they went into the idolatry of the gentiles, and were eventually cast out of the Land, and were "hidden"? into "secret places," "in lands found later." (Deut. 29:28-29).?? It is called the afikomen, meaning a "gift," a Greek name, for they were to be known by Gentile names, unrecognized by anyone, till they are restored to their Israelite identities, through the resurrection from the spiritually dead, which HaShem bestows upon them, in the latter-day Work of Eli-Yah. The little child that finds it, and the little children that are looking for it, are a picture of "the children's children, "? (Psalm 103:17-18, Mal. 3:22, Ez. 37:25-26), who are to find themselves, and "reinherit themselves,"? (Ez. 22:16, Artscroll Chumash, p. 1175),in the Great Work? of Eli Y-h." (Mal. 3:24). Am looking forward to hearing from all of you after Pesach about what HaShem will have told you during this Pesach 2009, 5769. May the G-d of Abraham, the Go- of Isaac and the G- of Jacob inspire us all...? this Pesach and in the momentous times just ahead of us. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/b9a73053/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Wed Apr 8 12:14:45 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:14:45 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Write down the PRs Message-ID: <200904081714.n38HEgR8007703@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Dear Friends, Am writing to remind you all to write down all the PRs you receive. It is important that you write down ALL the details and impressions you receive. When you can, please fill out a report about it at: http://www.uniteourheart.com/Prayer-Projects/Prayer%20research%20form.html and mail me back the Microsoft Word form as an attachment. 1 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; 2 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit. 3 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke 4 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 5 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD shall call. - (Joel 3:1-5, JPS) I expect that a lot of you will hear form Hashem, this Pesach. Just listen. Sh'ma Israel! Gratefully, Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." http://www.uniteourheart.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/85e7702f/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 8 12:57:01 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Re: [UILIST] Chag Sameach!!! Message-ID: <481359.17451.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> CHAG SAMEACH to everyone and their?families. May this be a blessed Passover, and for all of us, next year in Jerusalem or sooner. ? Shalom, ? Helen p.s. Looks like my daughter, Heather will be delivering her baby daughter soon. Perhaps a Pesach baby! --- On Wed, 4/8/09, Rudolph Ricciardi wrote: From: Rudolph Ricciardi Subject: Fw: Re: [UILIST] Chag Sameach!!! To: uilist at unitedisrael.org Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 12:42 PM Chag Sameach to All, and to your loved ones also. ??????? Soon in Jerusalem!! ?Love, Rudy & Linda --- On Wed, 4/8/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [UILIST] Chag Sameach!!! To: "UI List" Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 11:43 AM Hey Betty, and All, ? Chag Sameach to you and yours as well.? May this be a time of reflection, inspiration and renewed closeness to HaShem and each other to guide us all through the times to come. ? Brachot v'Ahavat. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- #yiv494161842 #yiv1569482703 st1\:*{} Friends, just in case I don?t have time tomorrow, ?I just wanted to wish all of you a CHAG SAMEACH!!!? Have a beautiful and meaningful Pesach, with the hope of Next Year in Y?rushalyim!!! And hope to see many of you in a couple of weeks at our upcoming conference in Charlotte .? I can hardly wait! ? Love and Shalom, ? Elisheva/Betty ? P.S. Remember the special blessing for the sun is tomorrow at sunrise! ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/b86c5f7f/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 8 13:41:45 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 14:41:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Chag Sameach!!! In-Reply-To: <481359.17451.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <481359.17451.qm@web82508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ac701c9b879$ac631ce0$052956a0$@com> Passover / Pesach And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever. Seven days shall you eat unleavened bread; even the first day you shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel. And in the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you. And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall you observe this day in your generations by an ordinance forever. ~Exodus 12:14-17 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/1780d68b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090408/1780d68b/attachment.jpe From RNDAVAR at aol.com Wed Apr 8 23:15:55 2009 From: RNDAVAR at aol.com (RNDAVAR at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 00:15:55 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] My Last Night in Goshen Message-ID: I wrote this tonight as I thought about what it would have been like to have been in Goshen on the first Pesach. ___________________ The moon is huge and bright outside. All around me I see the silhouettes of people scurrying about and preparing for our much anticipated departure. People can be seen packing all of their possessions in the flickering light of the oil lamps burning within the homes of all of my neighbors. I am standing outside of my home, my belt is fastened, sandals are tied tightly on my feet and my staff is in my hand. I am burning what was left from my family meal, as I was instructed, upon a pile of coals. Four days ago I selected a lamb for my house and then today at the specified time "between the evenings" I killed it and roasted it over a fire. My family ate the flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. I took some of the blood and applied it to the top and sides of the doorway to my home. I am told that this will serve as a sign to keep my family safe. It is whispered that tonight at midnight a destroyer will pass through the land and enter any and every home that does not have the sign to kill the firstborn. We have prayed for deliverance from the hard labor of this place. My people have been here for 430 years! It is said that our God has finally heard our cries. Two sons of the tribe of Levi revealed this to our elders who then informed us of all that would lead to our freedom. There names are Moses and Aaron, both sons of Amram and Jochebed of the family of Kohath. I am told that these two sons of Levi performed many miracles in the sight of our elders which confirmed to them that our God has indeed visited us and witnessed our afflictions. When I first heard this news I bowed my head and worshipped! Time and again they went before Pharaoh and requested that our people be allowed to leave but the king of Egypt refused every time. Because of the strength of Pharaoh's heart and his arrogance towards God's messengers our God has caused great calamities to fall upon the people who have enslaved us. During all of this time my people have been protected in our place of Goshen. The water of the Nile was turned to blood. The fish died and the smell from the water was horrid! Even after this sign, Pharaoh would not let us go. The land was invaded by frogs. We hear that the frogs were inside of the homes of the Egyptians...on their beds and even in their kneading bowls! I h ad hoped that this would cause Pharaoh to let us leave but as soon as the plague was removed and the frogs burned in the fires, Pharaoh returned to his stubbornness! Gnats came next. The gnats covered all living creatures - both man and beast, but Pharaoh was still not willing to let us leave. Flies came next to such a degree that the land of Egypt was ruined by the swarms. I thought that this plague would have been enough, but Pharaoh still stood strong against us. Then I witnessed the livestock of the Egyptians dead in the fields and yet even with this, Pharaoh refused to let us go. Even when the Egyptians were stricken with painful sores on their flesh they did not give in to release us. We heard from our elders that Moses instructed all of us to take our livestock to safety to keep them protected during the next plague. We were told that God would send a storm of hail. Some of the Egyptians took heed to this warning but most did not. We were safe in Goshen, but the storm was fierce! Hail and fire came down from heaven such as had never been seen or heard! All the plants were destroyed as well. Once again the sons of Levi, as they had done after each of the preceding plagues went before Pharaoh. As soon as the storm was stayed by the hand of Moses, Pharaoh grew arrogant once again and reneged on his word. Locusts were sent to eat what was left from the hail, but as soon as they were blown away by God, Pharaoh went back on his word. Then a darkness came upon the land - a darkness so thick that one could feel it! This seemed only to anger Pharaoh more and he threatened Moses and Aaron with death if they appeared before him again. We then followed the directions of Moses and Aaron and asked our Egyptian neighbors for silver and gold which they gave to us. We were told to prepare as I mentioned previously for our departure. So as the glow from the coals slowly fades into the dark of night I close the door of my home. The children are sleeping quietly on the floor. Our dog and other animals all curled up in a ball with them. My wife and I are too anxious to sleep. What was that? I hear high pitched screams as the wind blows hard outside of our home. I watch as clouds pass in front of the moon and I know that tonight is the night that God has chosen to save His people. I am told that we will eat this meal every year at this time when we reach our destination. When my sons ask me why we eat this meal I will tell them, "It is YHWH's Passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when He struck the Egyptians but spared our houses." Tell the story in your own way during this season. Shalom and chag sameach! Ross Nichols Ross K. Nichols _www.RootsofFaith.org_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.org/) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090409/899545f2/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 9 06:15:34 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 11:15:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] My Last Night in Goshen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <671472743-1239275793-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2125052826-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Excellent Ross! Almost like I was there. Chag Sameach. See ya tonite. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: RNDAVAR at aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 00:15:55 To: ; Subject: [Dialogue] My Last Night in Goshen _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Apr 9 08:15:22 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:15:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Review of Restoring Abrahamic Faith by Isaac Mozeson Message-ID: Restoring Abrahamic Faith James D. Tabor Genesis 2000, Charlotte, North Carolina, 2008 (genesis2000.org) Paperback, 170 pgs., $15, ISBN: 978-0-615-21664-5 Review by Isaac Mozeson Professor James Tabor (Chair, Dept. of Religious Studies at UNC Charlotte) spent decades searching for the historical Jesus. What he found was a Jew, and the religion of Jesus, rather than the religion about Jesus. Tabor writes as a former New Testament Christian who has discovered that the Hebrew Torah is far from what he was taught about an Old Testament. The book?s content involves theology and key ideas, but the tone is never scholarly or academic. It is ?remarkable,? ?striking? and ?tremendous? that the Creator communicated with us, gave us His Name and an eternal Revelation to guide us. The enthusiasm is contagious, and very much written for the spiritually-open layman. While ?YHVH? is unknowable, Dr. Tabor makes clear what G-d?s Way is. We are to pursue steadfast love and righteous judgment, with key Hebrew terms from the Torah carefully explained. Revelation of that Way is most intimately conveyed in the Ten Words or Commandments. While a commandment like keeping the Sabbath day of rest appears to be especially addressed to the former Israelite slaves, Tabor stresses how this observance is actually global, planetary. Indeed, the book?s ?Abrahamic Faith? is named for Abraham?s personal relationship with G-d, but the larger ?Way? and even the ?core teachings? are for all the descendants of Adam. All humanity is termed ?the Children of Noah, ? who are all responsible for seven basic categories of morality. Gentiles should strive to attain the level of these B?nai Noach, but Tabor makes it clear that the Jews, the ?priestly tribe,? are supposed to be a small minority. Only the ignorant and paranoid can accuse Tabor of trying to convert Christians to be Jews. Judaism is unusual for not wanting converts. Comparative religion is one of the strengths of this book, and it emerges that there is no ?salvation? to attain ? either through some magical act of faith or of works. There may be no Original Sin to undo, but the author details a concrete, historical Plan of Redemption where we creations will eventually restore our intimacy with the Creator. History is important in this little gem, as it reveals little-known facts. For example, one learns that the Israelis retook Old Jerusalem on June 7, 1967, 2300 years to the day from Alexander the Great?s defeat of the Persians in 334 B.C.E. ? as per the prophecy in Daniel 8:14. And that the Moslem architectural wonder, the Dome of the Rock, was built above an eight-sided Byzantine church. Not every rabbi will embrace Tabor?s thoughts on the Lost Tribes, Judah and Joseph theory, bold phrases like ?the Second Coming of YHVH,? Israel as Suffering Servant, or his multiple messiah teachings, but now every rabbi or Ben Noah has a small, instant classic to give to anyone queasy with the Gospels who would like to explore a more solid Biblical Way and Plan. Isaac Mozeson?s most recent book is The Origin of Speeches: Intelligent Design in Language (Lightcatcher Books, 2007), see lightcatcher.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090409/e13083bf/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Thu Apr 9 10:08:04 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:08:04 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sabbath Message-ID: <1543225515-1239289547-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1766406452-@bxe1249.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> It is a beautiful day here in Southern Louisiana. I am at a Spring party with Toby today. Beginning tomorrow the kids are out of school for break so parents were allowed to spend the day with their children. We are having a blast. I took off for the Sabbath. Later I am going to Seth's honor roll program and then to John and Carin's for our community seder. I hope that all of you are having a wonderful day today. Don't forget to eat your unleavened bread! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From dstone34 at cox.net Thu Apr 9 07:05:32 2009 From: dstone34 at cox.net (Diana Stone) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama to Host Passover Seder in the White House Message-ID: <37646446BCB7436296BAD6A8341C8970@toshibauser> Obama to Host Passover Seder in the White House http://www.israpundit.com:80/2008/?p=12076 http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/FromNyToIsraelSultanRevealsTheStoriesBehindTheNews/~3/XitT4SFMgjs/wednesday-afternoon-roundup-emperor-is.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090409/68640be8/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Apr 9 09:29:19 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:29:19 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz Message-ID: <5B9A0419-D8DF-49C5-A4F7-C2496AAC45D1@earthlink.net> David Horowitz, founder of United Israel World Union, was born 106 years ago today. He was born in Malm?, Sweden on April 9, 1903, 106 years ago today. He died October 22, 2002 at age 99. Many of you had the pleasure of knowing him, or at least meeting him. I think of him every day and miss him terribly. Just as a remembrance I have attached a nice Bio of his life for those who have not seen it. It has some great photos. Chag Sameach, James -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HorowitzBio.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 489617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090409/564445f6/attachment.pdf -------------- next part -------------- From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Apr 10 02:09:54 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:09:54 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot Message-ID: <200904100710.n3A7A48K016900@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Gang, Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy Day. Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is going to do. In any case, I recommend that you all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations. However, it is enough to know that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day. There is Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. repentance is always in order. Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai. We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are being called out of our settings. Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel." My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been doing, whatever that may have been. True, we are on diverse paths homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that. We need to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. The reason I am saying this is because we all have resisted the religious leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry Bones. We have a task. May I suggest that we have a discussion about this. Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, so that "the order" can be verified." That will take care of our "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us. However WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. Well, who is falling in line? Steve Ps: Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: [] Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com . Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ---------- HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. [] Please visit this link to update your preferences. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090410/f786cd20/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Fri Apr 10 03:27:27 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:27:27 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mi'Ma'amakim "Out Of The Depths" Message-ID: <49DF02EF.405@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090410/7687dcd8/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 10 15:50:53 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:50:53 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz In-Reply-To: <5B9A0419-D8DF-49C5-A4F7-C2496AAC45D1@earthlink.net> References: <5B9A0419-D8DF-49C5-A4F7-C2496AAC45D1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0c3201c9ba1e$0b500ab0$21f02010$@com> Thanks, James, I really wish that I could have met him in person. I think we would have had a lot in common. Shabbat Shalom, Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz David Horowitz, founder of United Israel World Union, was born 106 years ago today. He was born in Malm?, Sweden on April 9, 1903, 106 years ago today. He died October 22, 2002 at age 99. Many of you had the pleasure of knowing him, or at least meeting him. I think of him every day and miss him terribly. Just as a remembrance I have attached a nice Bio of his life for those who have not seen it. It has some great photos. Chag Sameach, James From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Fri Apr 10 19:21:33 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:21:33 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Counting the Omer Message-ID: <000BEDDEDBF541C6BEFB4B66332E19A9@SPLITPIN> Hi Steve, I would like to participate with you in counting the Omer, but as I do not agree with the starting date you have given I am unable to participate in this. I believe the night of the Passover began on Thursday 9th of April and the following night Friday 10th begins the weekly Sabbath so it is my belief that the 1st day of the omer count would begin on Saturday night at sunset on the 11th of April. This is according to my calculations that the sighting of the new moon on the evening of the 27th day of March making that the 1st day of the month, the Passover was on the 14th day of the month which is the 9th of April. The wave sheaf offering is on the day after the Sabbath. I believe this would normally be the day after the Passover Sabbath making it fall on the 15th day of the month but as the 15th day of the month falls on the weekly Sabbath this year, I believe the wave sheaf offering would be on the 16th day of the month which begins Saturday evening on the 11th of April. As the 1st day of the count is on the day of the wave sheaf offering the count for the 1st day would be on Saturday April 11 at sunset. If YeHoWaH tells us anything this year I pray He would clear this up for us and tell us so there is no doubt as to when the Passover is to be kept and the wave sheaf offered and when the count is to begin. I also pray that He would reveal His name to everyone on this list. As to your plan of having everyone pray and receive an answer, I do not think this plan will work. How can we know that YeHoWaH actually gave a message to anyone? If we were all to ask YeHoWaH about the Passover and wave sheaf, we would all come up with the answer which we believe is correct. If the answers are different would this not mean that the answers are from our own thoughts and not from YeHoWaH? How would we know which answers are from YeHoWaH and which are answers have come from our own minds? If the answer was unanimous then we might concede that the answer was from YeHoWaH. I would like to propose that we pray about this and see if YeHoWaH answers our prayer. I do not think we should pray about this expecting our pre-conceived ideas to be the answer. I believe we should be prepared to accept whatever answer YeHoWaH gives. If any on the list want to pray about this I think we should say so before we pray and choose a time when we can pray together. I also believe that fasting on the day we pray is also best. I have found that I receive answers to my prayers when I fast and pray. Please, if you choose a time, will you tell me what day and time that is in Brisbane Australia. I have noticed that when times are given for events Israel, USA and United Kingdom are included but Australia always gets left out. Shalom, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/16734eb6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 10 21:17:24 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:17:24 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mi'Ma'amakim "Out Of The Depths" In-Reply-To: <49DF02EF.405@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <041120090217.727.49DFFDB30009BB78000002D722243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Joe, This brought tears to my eyes. I have seen some of these sights personaly. It is life in Israel, maybe for the rest of the world soon/ This is the passage that came to mind; Deuteronomy 30:19 - 31:1 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. Shabbat Shalom. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shabbat Shalom Ethiopian Style Joe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz5Spgrel2k&NR=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/e8658ee8/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Sat Apr 11 08:53:34 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 08:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the British HomoeopathicReview, 1901 In-Reply-To: <040720090310.7372.49DAC42F0007917300001CCC22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <594082.12068.qm@web54502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49D66706.2030002@gninc.ca> <040720090310.7372.49DAC42F0007917300001CCC22230704929B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <49E0A0DE.6050008@gninc.ca> Susie Thanks for the e-card! By the way it sounds to me John you are having about the same problem I have some times I have up to 100 e-mails coming in one day. I wonder if I should change my e-mail address, I get so much junk in the mail. I am not referring to the dialogue group. Concerning religions. Being the Song of Songs are being read over the holidays, I had to think: As much as it sounds like what I always thought it referred to in the King James. A sensuous love affair and nothing else! How beautiful and pure though, to have the true meaning taught to us through Judaism. To have it used as a metaphor in the Tanach, of a holy union between Hashem and His chosen people. Thinking especially how the Jewish people especially learn to have such a close relationship with their espoused Savior, by being counted worthy of the hardships they face, whereby they can hold on to that beautiful One and only Holy One, that it is possible for them to bear the pain of all the persecution and terrorism, that they have to face! I would love to be a part of those that have that relationship intact. But the Jews in Winnipeg advise me not to. That would be too hard a path to walk in they say. I have other reasons why I am not converted to Judaism yet. Shalom Cornie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Hey Cornie, > > I'm working my way through the 150 emails I got over the weekend and > have already read some of the more recent ones. I think in this post > you have hit on the real problem of religion. Those that truly want > to understand what they believe, as opposed to being told what they > believe, are in the minority. In addition, when people dare to ask > the questions that would lead to real belief based on understanding > religion has historically discouraged it, sometimes violently. > > Most religions have some history of suppression regarding curiosity > that sheds light on the established doctrine. Historical Christianity > and modern day Islam are two prime examples of this behavior. > Fanaticism grows out of the avaricial ambitions of greedy people who > prey on the innocent ignorence of the masses. In Christian history, > this was aided by the fact that most Christians did not have the Bible > available to them and/or couldn't read in the first place. > > Today, on the Christian side I think it is more a case of laziness, > it's easier to go to church on Sunday and get your fix of > righteousness to last you through the week instead of spending time > with G-d's Word every day. That is admittedly a generalization , and > I know that there are devoted Christians who study G-d's word > regularly, but again I submit that they are the exception in my > experience. > > As for Islam, I can't speak to that, I have never read the Koran. > I've been too busy extricating myself from one form of blindness to > risk delving into another, I intend to get there eventually. But as a > citizen of the world I can make the observation that if Islam, as a > religion, is a peaceful one, then those who represent that view within > that culture had better start speaking more loudly. Because all I can > hear are the fanatics screaming bloody murder toward both Israel and > the US. One could argue that that is the media's fault, but the media > responds to what sell's papers. If Islam truly wants to redeem their > reputation in the world, their actions need to start speaking more > loudly that those of the fanatics that claim allegiance to them. > > One of the main reasons I was attracted to Judiasm was the fact that > as a religion as well as a culture, Jews welcome questions. They also > welcome disagreement. So much so that historically, the Jewish > Rabbinate kept records of the dissenting views given in any particular > argument, just in case the prevailing view agreed upon at the time > turned out to be in error, I love that! > > So, the short of it is that each of us is responsible for > understanding what we believe and taking to task those who see fit to > decalre that they have it all figured out. Only HaShem has it all > figured out. With all due respect to all the religions of the world > and all of their wise men, we are all just students of life with > different course loads. Some choose the right courses and others > choose detention. > > Shalom Cornie. > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > > -------------- Original message from Cornie Reimer > : -------------- > > Susie I agree with you, we raised 8 children , even the Christian > way. Even though there may be no evidence of truth for what we > taught them, like for example, the virgin birth of a God etc., > and thanks to Torah, that is different, the Torah even may have > been translated wrong as we get it, or whatever the case. But when > I follow what it teaches it seems to me it does not deceive us, it > can be proven even by archaeologists, where as any authentic > evidence that Jesus was God, as I taught my own children, and > believed myself most of my life, does not seem to be grounded on > real truth. Now I have changed, but my children still believe what > I taught them. > > Am I getting off the topic? If so, maybe it is because I just > finished watching a DVD "THE GOD WHO WASN'T THERE". A Film Beyond > Belief." This could have been cast by an atheist, but a number of > Christians were questioned for proof of what they believe, when it > comes to the test if he as proof, he gets offended and walks out > of the room, this is a leader responsible for 1800 pupils in a > Christian Academy. > > > susie getskow wrote: >> Hey Cornie, >> >> As a parent I loved when my children got to the point of doing >> what I asked them to without questioning why. "Because I said >> so," was good enough and that they trusted that my asking was >> because I loved them and wanted nothing but the best for them. >> >> Susie >> >> --- On *Fri, 4/3/09, Cornie Reimer //* wrote: >> >> From: Cornie Reimer >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PORK and CANCER: Article from the >> British Homoeopathic Review, 1901 >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 11:09 AM >> >> Hi Patty and all, I don't eat pork, and have not for a long >> time, for different reasons. Yes, obedience to Hashems word >> is number one. But there are great blessings involved with >> obeying the instruction manual (the Torah) for our good, that >> we may often take for granted, or not appreciate for what it >> is worth. As I understand it a pig does not have sweat >> glands, to throw out a lot of toxins, so they have to store >> the toxins in their fat, unlike other animals and us humans. >> The pig is created to be a scavenger, and itself can handle >> those unhealthy substances, much of which goes right into >> their fat, as a storage place. Their bodies are created for a >> good cause, to clean up garbage, but as the Torah teaches us, >> it is not for human consumption. Contrary to which the >> Christian bible claims that the law has been done away with, >> so Gentiles don't take these Torah instructions serious, and >> miss a lot of blessings to bodily physical health. Does that >> give us reason to thank Hashem for the Torah? and to find >> good reason to respect it? I think so. And I am sure you >> others will agree. >> >> If I understand it right and stand to be corrected, but I >> have the impression, the Torah does teach, that doing first >> before we understand why is also blessed. So maybe that would >> exp[lain why you Hez thought it was alright for a gentile to >> eat pork, but not for Jews. I have already been hurt by Jews >> making such claims, till I realized that much of the Torah >> is empathizing, especially for the Jewish people that they >> need to be light to us others, unto the nations. Once we will >> see them walking in that light. Like sheep, following a >> shepherd, we will gladly voluntarily follow ion their >> footsteps. >> >> Cornie >> >> >> >> Patty wrote: >>> >>> Hi All, I thought you might find this interesting. Medical >>> communities have known about the dangers of pork for years ? >>> and their model? The Jews! >>> >>> >>> >> PORK AND CANCER >> >> To the Editors of the ?Monthly Homeopathic Review? >> >> GENTLEMEN,- The following newspaper cutting is from the >> /Birmingham Daily Post/ of this day?s date. >> >> A correspondent who signs himself ?Common Sense? writes as >> follows to the /St. James? Gazette/: ?Is it not a fact that >> cancer rarely occurs among Jews? The careful avoidance of >> such an article of food as pig?s flesh seems to point to the >> reason. If a pig were always fed on clean food no doubt its >> flesh would be as wholesome as any other, but being a >> scavenger, and fed on any food that can be got, it is most >> likely that disease of all kinds is spread by its use as a >> food. I was recently told by a friend of mine who personally >> enquired of some bargemen on the Thames what the substance >> was which filled the barges, that they told him that is was >> composed of poultices from London hospitals, which went by >> barge down the Thames to the Medway to feed the pigs, which >> eventually became what is known as ?dairy-fed pork?. I have >> examined bacon frequently, and have often found small ?cysts? >> or tumours in it (eeeeeewwww!!). Considering that a special >> disease, trichinosis, is associated with pork*, it is not >> beyond the bounds of probability that to use the flesh of a >> notoriously foul-feeding animal as food is to convey the >> seeds of all kinds of disease into the system.? *(emphasis >> mine.) >> >> If you would kindly insert this I should be much obliged, and >> should be very pleased to read any comments you or any >> medical gentleman may write on this subject in the /Review/. >> >> Is it /possible /that the London Hospital Authorities are >> cognizant of it? It seems to me incredible. /If/ it /is/ >> true, it is a /very/ serious matter affecting thousands of >> lives. It is a most serious charge to lay at the doors of the >> city hospitals. If it is /not/ true, then the hospitals of >> London should at /once/ take the matter up and deny it in the >> most public way possible. If it is true, then pork /in any >> form whatever/, should be most scrupulously avoided and >> discontinued as an article of diet. >> >> For myself I have given up, for years, eating pork in any >> shape whatever, and my health is decidedly the better for so >> doing, and I feel sure that the general avoidance of pork >> would /very/ materially add to the health of the nation at >> large. Realising the serious import of the charge in the >> statement as /per/ newspaper cutting, prompts me at once to >> convey without delay the enclosed cutting, and I trust you >> will kindly pardon my trespassing upon your valued space in >> writing you so long a letter. >> >> Yours very cordially, >> >> SAMUEL ROBINSON >> >> Handsworth, nr. Birmingham. >> >> /September/ 11/^th /, 1901. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/51153b35/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Sat Apr 11 10:20:33 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:20:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49E0B541.9060702@gninc.ca> Hi Catherine You mentioned about what I wrote about my wife not able to take medication. We do hope now that she might be able to take a natural Medicine that a US doctor, coming to Canada once a month, will bring along. But I guess we have to keep our fingers crossed whether she will be able to take even that. Thank you for your prayers. Cornie Catherine Cashmore wrote: > Hi Cornie, > > Reading your message regarding your wife who has bi polar really > touched me. I haven't had a lot of experience with this illness, but > from what I know I can well empathize with the 'hell' and feeling of > entrapment that it can cause the sufferer. I also can sympathize > greatly with your situation - I am sure you have developed great > patience and a new depth of love during this time. It is a shame she > can't take any medication that might help her situation - I wish I > could offer more experienced advice or support. However I wanted you > to know that I'll remember you in my prayers. > > I hope the message of emuna truly her. > > Catherine > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/2777d9bb/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 19:48:27 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:48:27 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Mi'Ma'amakim "Out Of The Depths" In-Reply-To: <49DF02EF.405@westnet.com.au> References: <49DF02EF.405@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <855590370904111748r657087b4sc8f07656e4816232@mail.gmail.com> Toda Joe, Idan Raichel is really amazing...I saw him in concert in NYC last year; incredibly talented - as is his entire ensemble. Hope you're having a great Pesah! Moadim L'Simcha, * Hanoch * On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 1:27 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shabbat Shalom > Ethiopian Style > Joe > * > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz5Spgrel2k&NR=1 > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/b871dfe3/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 22:34:14 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:34:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot In-Reply-To: <200904100710.n3A7A48K016900@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> References: <200904100710.n3A7A48K016900@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904112034o1078a4edh9ab49bd0d1890d0@mail.gmail.com> Steve and all, I'm "in line". I remember the "Omer mediations" from MLC from last year. I highly recommend them. Even for those of you who are counting differently you can still use them on the day that you believe is correct. The important thing is that we are praying together. We most likely will not agree on the count, but I believe we all agree on the why we count...to prepare our hearts to meet HaShem to be open to His Teaching and His Guidance. Kim On Fri, Apr 10, 20 09 at 2:09 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: > Gang, > > Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till > Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we > should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, > Shavuot Holy Day. Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something > spectacular that G-d is going to do. In any case, I recommend that you all > subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have > to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into > the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations. However, it is enough to know > that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day. There is > Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. > repentance is always in order. Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt > Sinai. We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are > being called out of our settings. Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, > O Israel." My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been > doing, whatever that may have been. True, we are on diverse paths > homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that. We need > to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to > what we need to do. > > The reason I am saying this is because we all have resisted the religious > leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling > us what to do. > > However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out > of the valley of Dry Bones. We have a task. May I suggest that we have a > discussion about this. Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d > NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for > Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of > us, so that "the order" can be verified." That will take care of our > "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. > > It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us. However > WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, > if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and > put it out on this list. > > Well, who is falling in line? > > > Steve > > Ps: > Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received > it. > > > Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder- FREE > > The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of > time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The > spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one > corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming > Thursday night, April 9th. > > Click hereto subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning > you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding > emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- > excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the > Counting of the Omer, > Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. > > Already subscribed? Subscribe your > friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift > they will forever appreciate. > > Here is a sample of this year's first installment: > > [image: []] > > > Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. > Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. > Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. > > Day 1 - *Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness > > *Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is > both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond > ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to > experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest > reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is > my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I > stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? > Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? > > *Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. > > *Day 2 *- Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness > > *Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and > discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an > assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered > and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a > child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them > any personal space. > > *Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply > yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. > > *Day 3 - *Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness > > *Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of > love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given > with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is > given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't > deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. > > *Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. > > *Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. > ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. > www.meaningfullife.com . > > Click hereto order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click > here . > > To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here > . > ------------------------------ > HOW TO COUNT THE OMER > > The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the > evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: > > Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us > with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. > > > Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then > recite the following prayer: > > May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our > days; Amen. > > For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be > gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us > forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. > The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The > nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly > and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; > all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce > and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the > farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. > > We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. > Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. > Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek > Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your > merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, > guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are > mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who > knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom > forever and ever. > > Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to > count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. > As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the > day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a > wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the > seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people > Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your > will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat > Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah > be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. > May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify > our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it > purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. > [image: []] > > > Please visit this linkto update your preferences. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/3d7c9c89/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sat Apr 11 22:43:32 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 03:43:32 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904112034o1078a4edh9ab49bd0d1890d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <200904100710.n3A7A48K016900@mail384c25.carrierzone.com><1c8dbb6e0904112034o1078a4edh9ab49bd0d1890d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1354672228-1239507838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1846763273-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Amein Kim, I find that the count itself is less important than the order they are presented. These are the attributes of G-d given to us on a practical level in a way that illustrates how to relate to each other as He instructs. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: kim alvarado Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:34:14 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot _______________________________________________ From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Apr 11 23:53:09 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:53:09 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904112034o1078a4edh9ab49bd0d1890d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <200904100710.n3A7A48K016900@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> <1c8dbb6e0904112034o1078a4edh9ab49bd0d1890d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Steve, for providing us with this reminder regarding counting the Omer. I too think it is important that we count, being mindful that as we count each day after nightfall that we are one day closer to Shavuot. I agree with you, Kim, regarding the importance of praying with one another and preparing our hearts to "meet HaShem" and re-dedicate ourselves in whatever ways we need to, at Shavuot, when we metaphorically can stand shoulder to shoulder with one another at the foot of the Mountain and receive the Ten Words into our hearts. And whether we agree or not on exactly when to begin or end is probably not that important in the whole scheme of things. We can always find a point of disagreement if we look hard enough, but in the midst of disagreement, we can sometimes loose our focus as to what is really important. I too highly recommend Rabbi Jacobson's daily "Omer Meditations," as they are all about the attitbutes/characteristics of HaShem, and give us practical ways to incorporate them into our daily thinking and carry them out in our lives.See example below that I cut and pasted from Steve's original email. Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. CCopyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 10:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot Steve and all, I'm "in line". I remember the "Omer mediations" from MLC from last year. I highly recommend them. Even for those of you who are counting differently you can still use them on the day that you believe is correct. The important thing is that we are praying together. We most likely will not agree on the count, but I believe we all agree on the why we count...to prepare our hearts to meet HaShem to be open to His Teaching and His Guidance. Kim On Fri, Apr 10, 20 09 at 2:09 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: Gang, Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy Day. Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is going to do. In any case, I recommend that you all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations. However, it is enough to know that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day. There is Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. repentance is always in order. Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai. We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are being called out of our settings. Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel." My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been doing, whatever that may have been. True, we are on diverse paths homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that. We need to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. The reason I am saying this is because we all have resisted the religious leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry Bones. We have a task. May I suggest that we have a discussion about this. Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, so that "the order" can be verified." That will take care of our "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us. However WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. Well, who is falling in line? Steve Ps: Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: [] Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. _____ HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. [] Please visit this link to update your preferences. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/3dc19824/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 12 00:42:40 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Free Daily Omer Reminders Message-ID: <565422.69460.qm@web82507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/6/09, mlc wrote: From: mlc Subject: Free Daily Omer Reminders To: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Date: Monday, April 6, 2009, 5:07 PM #yiv1648743997 {font-size:11px;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;} #yiv1648743997 a {font-size:11px;color:#ff6600;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;} #yiv1648743997 a:visited {color:#666666;} #yiv1648743997 a:hover {text-decoration:underline;} #yiv1648743997 p {font-weight:normal;font-size:11px;color:#666666;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;} #yiv1648743997 h1 {font-weight:bold;font-size:14px;color:#666666;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;} #yiv1648743997 h2 {font-weight:bold;font-size:13px;color:#666666;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;} #yiv1648743997 h3 {font-weight:bold;font-size:12px;color:#666666;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1648743997 h4 {font-weight:bold;font-size:11px;color:#666666;font-style:normal;font-family:verdana, sans-serif;text-decoration:none;margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1648743997 hr {width:100%;height:1px;color:#ff9900;} Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder?- FREE The?7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful?span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this?49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here?to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: ? Thursday night,?April 9, we count?one day of the Omer. Friday?night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer.? Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality?- God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness? Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com. Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ?HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. Please visit this link to update your preferences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/59fadf50/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 12 01:03:59 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick Message-ID: <490518.39694.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Women in Green wrote: From: Women in Green Subject: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick To: wfit2 at womeningreen.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 12:26 AM Instructions for unsubscribing can be found in the footer of this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Column One: Surviving in a post-American world April 10, 2009 Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Like it or not, the United States of America is no longer the world's policeman. This was the message of Barack Obama's presidential journey to Britain, France, the Czech Republic, Turkey and Iraq this past week. Somewhere between apologizing for American history - both distant and recent; genuflecting before the unelected, bigoted king of Saudi Arabia; announcing that he will slash the US's nuclear arsenal, scrap much of America's missile defense programs and emasculate the US Navy; leaving Japan to face North Korea and China alone; telling the Czechs, Poles and their fellow former Soviet colonies, "Don't worry, be happy," as he leaves them to Moscow's tender mercies; humiliating Iraq's leaders while kowtowing to Iran; preparing for an open confrontation with Israel; and thanking Islam for its great contribution to American history, President Obama made clear to the world's aggressors that America will not be confronting them for the foreseeable future. Whether they are aggressors like Russia, proliferators like North Korea, terror exporters like nuclear-armed Pakistan or would-be genocidal-terror-supporting nuclear states like Iran, today, under the new administration, none of them has any reason to fear Washington. This news is music to the ears of the American Left and their friends in Europe. Obama's supporters like billionaire George Soros couldn't be more excited at the self-induced demise of the American superpower. CNN's former (anti-)Israel bureau chief Walter Rodgers wrote ecstatically in the Christian Science Monitor on Wednesday, "America's... superpower status, is being downgraded as rapidly as its economy." The pro-Obama US and European media are so pleased with America's abdication of power that they took the rare step of applauding Obama at his press conference in London. Indeed, the media's enthusiasm for Obama appeared to grow with each presidential statement of contrition for America's past uses of force, each savage attack he leveled against his predecessor George W. Bush, each swipe he took at Israel, and each statement of gratitude for the blessings of Islam he uttered. But while the media couldn't get enough of the new US leader, America's most stable allies worldwide began a desperate search for a reset button that would cause the administration to take back its abandonment of America's role as the protector of the free world. Tokyo was distraught by the administration's reaction to North Korea's three-stage ballistic missile test. Japan recognized the betrayal inherent in Defense Secretary Robert Gates's announcement ahead Pyongyang's newest provocation that the US would only shoot the missile down if it targeted US territory. In one sentence, uttered not in secret consultations, but declared to the world on CNN, Gates abrogated America's strategic commitment to Japan's defense. India, for its part, is concerned by Obama's repeated assertions that its refusal to transfer control over the disputed Jammu and Kashmir provinces to Pakistan inspires Pakistani terror against India. It is equally distressed at the Obama administration's refusal to make ending Pakistan's support for jihadist terror groups attacking India a central component of its strategy for contending with Pakistan and Afghanistan. In general, Indian officials have expressed deep concern over the Obama administration's apparent lack of regard for India as an ally and a significant strategic counterweight to China. Then there is Iraq. During his brief visit to Baghdad on Tuesday afternoon, Obama didn't even pretend that he would ensure that Iraqi democracy and freedom is secured before US forces are withdrawn next year. The most supportive statement he could muster came during his conversation with Turkish students in Istanbul earlier in the day. There he said, "I have a responsibility to make sure that as we bring troops out, that we do so in a careful enough way that we don't see a complete collapse into violence." Hearing Obama's statements, and watching him and his advisers make daily declarations of friendship to Iran's mullahs, Iraqi leaders are considering their options for surviving the rapidly approaching storm. Then there is Europe. Although Obama received enthusiastic applause from his audience in Prague when he announced his intention to destroy the US's nuclear arsenal, drastically scale back its missile defense programs and forge a new alliance with Russia, his words were anything but music to the ears of the leaders of former Soviet satellites threatened by Russia. The Czech, Polish, Georgian and Ukrainian governments were quick to recognize that Obama's strong desire to curry favor with the Kremlin and weaken his own country will imperil their ability to withstand Russian aggression. It is not a coincidence, for instance, that the day Obama returned to Washington, Georgia's Moscow-sponsored opposition announced its plan to launch massive protests in Tblisi to force the ouster of pro-Western, anti-Russian Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. And as for Russia, like Iran, which responded to Obama's latest ode to the mullahs by opening a nuclear fuel plant and announcing it has 7,000 advanced centrifuges in operation, so Moscow reacted to Obama's fig leaf with a machine gun, announcing its refusal to support sanctions against North Korea and repeating its false claim that Iran's nuclear program is nonaggressive. Finally there is Israel. If Obama's assertions that Israel must support the immediate establishment of a Palestinian state, his declarations of support for the so-called Saudi "peace plan," which requires Israel to commit national suicide in exchange for "peace" with the Arab world, and his continuous and increasingly frantic appeals for Iran to "engage" his administration weren't enough to show Israel that Obama is sacrificing the US's alliance with the Jewish state in a bid to appease the Arabs and Iran, on Tuesday Vice President Joseph Biden made this policy explicit. When Biden told CNN that Israel would be "ill-advised" to attack Iran's nuclear installations, he made clear that from the administration's perspective, an Israeli strike that prevents Iran from becoming a nuclear power is less acceptable than a nuclear-armed Iran. That is, the Obama administration prefers to see Iran become a nuclear power than to see Israel secure its very existence. AMERICA'S BETRAYAL of its democratic allies makes each of them more vulnerable to aggression at the hands of their enemies - enemies the Obama administration is now actively attempting to appease. And as the US strengthens their adversaries at their expense, these spurned democracies must consider their options for surviving as free societies in this new, threatening, post-American environment. For the most part, America's scorned allies lack the ability to defeat their enemies on their own. India cannot easily defeat nuclear-armed Pakistan, which itself is fragmenting into disparate anti-Indian nuclear-wielding Islamist and Islamist-supporting factions. Japan today cannot face North Korea - which acts as a Chinese proxy - on its own without risking a confrontation with China. Russia's invasion of Georgia last August showed clearly that its former republics and satellites have no way of escaping Moscow's grip alone. This week's Arab League conference at Doha demonstrated to Iraq's leaders that their Arab brethren are incapable and unwilling to confront Iran. And the Obama administration's intense efforts to woo Iran coupled with its plan to slash the US's missile defense programs - including those in which Israel participates - and reportedly pressure Israel to dismantle its own purported nuclear arsenal - make clear that Israel today stands alone against Iran. THE RISKS that the newly inaugurated post-American world pose for America's threatened friends are clear. But viable opportunities for survival do exist, and Israel can and must play a central role in developing them. Specifically, Israel must move swiftly to develop active strategic alliances with Japan, Iraq, Poland, and the Czech Republic and it must expand its alliance with India. With Israel's technological capabilities, its intelligence and military expertise, it can play a vital role in shoring up these countries' capacities to contain the rogue states that threaten them. And by containing the likes of Russia, North Korea and Pakistan, they will make it easier for Israel to contain Iran even in the face of US support for the mullahs. The possibilities for strategic cooperation between and among all of these states and Israel run the gamut from intelligence sharing to military training, to missile defense, naval development, satellite collaboration, to nuclear cooperation. In addition, of course, expanded economic ties between and among these states can aid each of them in the struggle to stay afloat during the current global economic crisis. Although far from risk free, these opportunities are realistic because they are founded on stable, shared interests. This is the case despite the fact that none of these potential alliances will likely amount to increased support for Israel in international forums. Dependent as they are on Arab oil, these potential allies cannot be expected to vote with Israel in the UN General Assembly. But this should not concern Jerusalem. The only thing that should concern Jerusalem today is how to weaken Iran both directly by attacking its nuclear installations, and indirectly by weakening its international partners in Moscow, Pyongyang, Islamabad and beyond in the absence of US support. If Japan is able to contain North Korea and so limit Pyongyang's freedom to proliferate its nuclear weapons and missiles to Iran and Syria and beyond, Israel is better off. So, too, Israel is better off if Russia is contained by democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe. These nations in turn are better off if Iran is contained and prevented from threatening them both directly and indirectly through its strategic partners in North Korea, Syria and Russia, and its terror affiliates in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. For the past 16 years, successive Israeli governments have wrongly believed that politics trump strategic interests. The notion that informed Israel's decision-makers - not unlike the notion that now informs the Obama administration - was that Israel's strategic interests would be secured as a consequence of its efforts to appease its enemies by weakening itself. Appreciative of Israel's sacrifices for peace, the nations of the world - and particularly the US, the Arabs and Europe - would come to Israel's defense in its hour of need. Now that the hour of need has arrived, Israel's political strategy for securing itself has been exposed as a complete fiasco. The good news is that no doubt sooner rather than later, Obama's similarly disastrous bid to denude the US of its military power under the naive assumption that it will be able to use its new stature as a morally pure strategic weakling to win its enemies over to its side will fail spectacularly and America's foreign policy will revert to strategic rationality. But to survive the current period of American strategic madness, Israel and the US's other unwanted allies must build alliances with one another - covertly if need be - to contain their adversaries in the absence of America. If they do so successfully, then the damage to global security induced by Obama's emasculation of his country will be limited. If on the other hand, they fail, then America's eventual return to its senses will likely come too late for its allies - if not for America itself. caroline at carolineglick.com ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow? (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org To subscribe to the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-subscribe at womeningreen.org Check your spam filter for confirmation to reply to To unsubscribe from the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-unsubscribe at womeningreen.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090411/81a32854/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 12 08:30:42 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:30:42 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Message-ID: <49E1ED02.4000105@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/b22bf98e/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 08:32:02 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:32:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Cornie - music Message-ID: Hi Cornie, I'll keep praying for her and I sincerely hope that there is something that will ease the bad effects of the illness. Hold fast to faith and trust in HaShem. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Keep us updated on how things progress Much love, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/33d7b6fe/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 12 08:33:28 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:33:28 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] PESACH SEDER WITH A TWIST. Message-ID: <49E1EDA8.2010105@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/f9623e71/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Sun Apr 12 08:38:08 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:38:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is Obama? Message-ID: <49E1EEC0.4010505@gninc.ca> Shalom all, Now this is my understanding. " I believe we need to get our hearts set in emuna, the Hebrew interpretation of this word "emuna" that is ten times stronger than what we have been taught that faith means in the Christian world." The following is taken from "One Jerusalem Post" I want to take to heart the counting of the Omer, as it has been encouraged to, to come to the unity of Torah truth. Our only true instruction manual, how to conduct our lives while on this sojourn here below. Cornie ? Obama And The Mullahs II | Home [04.07.2009] Obama Pleases Muslims, Lectures Israel As President Obama, makes his first visit to Iraq it is a good time to reflect on what we have learned about this largely unknown leader after his whirlwind tour to Europe and Turkey. One of his persistent themes has been that the United States of America will no longer dictate policy but will listen and engage friends and foes on the international stage. Given his foreign audiences this refrain repeatedly received enthusiastic applause. But no sooner had he set foot in Turkey and his tone changed. Speaking to the Turkish Parliament, Obama stopped listening and started lecturing Israel and our European allies. While he bent over backwards to assure his Muslim audience that the United States will never be at war with Islam he used the same setting to declare his Administration's commitment to a Palestinian State (which means a division of Jerusalem), the Annapolis "Peace" Process, and the Road Map. He made these policy decisions without even giving Israel the benefit of discussing these issues before setting policy. In other words, he is in favor of engaging Iran, a less friendly Turkey, and even North Korea but he has not even acknowledged that the people of Israel have elected a new government that rejected the failed policies Obama has now embraced.There is no excuse for this hostile behavior toward Israel. But Israel was not the only ally on the receiving end of an Obama lecture. To please his Turkish hosts, Obama stuck his nose into the question of whether Turkey should be a member of the European Union. Obama and the United States have no standing in this debate but an uninvited Obama opined anyway. France's President Sarkozy responded by telling Obama to stay out of this debate. At the same time Obama failed to fulfill a campaign promise to demand that Turkey apologize for the genocide it committed against the Armenian people. During his presidential campaign Obama and his adviser Samantha Power exploited this issue in Armenian-American communities. But when Obama had a forum to state his position he remained mute. It is becoming clear that Obama's plan is to try and win over the Muslim world by refraining from criticizing them and by siding with them against Israel's best interests.Friends of Israel and America's best interests get ready for a protracted battle with the Obama Administration. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/c711c6e7/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 12 08:43:36 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:43:36 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot] Message-ID: <49E1F008.7030205@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/4494c29e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:09:54 -0700 Size: 24557 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/4494c29e/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 12 08:59:01 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 23:59:01 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick] Message-ID: <49E1F3A5.5070303@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/73bbacfd/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Helen Lusk Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Size: 32065 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/73bbacfd/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 12 09:09:14 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 00:09:14 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Who is Obama?] Message-ID: <49E1F60A.5060901@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/58b15852/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Cornie Reimer Subject: [Dialogue] Who is Obama? Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:38:08 -0500 Size: 10520 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/58b15852/attachment.eml From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 09:28:22 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:28:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick In-Reply-To: <490518.39694.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <490518.39694.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you so much, Dear Helen. With deep respect and appreciation, Pat From: Helen Lusk Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 2:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Women in Green wrote: From: Women in Green Subject: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick To: wfit2 at womeningreen.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 12:26 AM Instructions for unsubscribing can be found in the footer of this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Column One: Surviving in a post-American world April 10, 2009 Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Like it or not, the United States of America is no longer the world's policeman. This was the message of Barack Obama's presidential journey to Britain, France, the Czech Republic, Turkey and Iraq this past week. Somewhere between apologizing for American history - both distant and recent; genuflecting before the unelected, bigoted king of Saudi Arabia; announcing that he will slash the US's nuclear arsenal, scrap much of America's missile defense programs and emasculate the US Navy; leaving Japan to face North Korea and China alone; telling the Czechs, Poles and their fellow former Soviet colonies, "Don't worry, be happy," as he leaves them to Moscow's tender mercies; humiliating Iraq's leaders while kowtowing to Iran; preparing for an open confrontation with Israel; and thanking Islam for its great contribution to American history, President Obama made clear to the world's aggressors that America will not be confronting them for the foreseeable future. Whether they are aggressors like Russia, proliferators like North Korea, terror exporters like nuclear-armed Pakistan or would-be genocidal-terror-supporting nuclear states like Iran, today, under the new administration, none of them has any reason to fear Washington. This news is music to the ears of the American Left and their friends in Europe. Obama's supporters like billionaire George Soros couldn't be more excited at the self-induced demise of the American superpower. CNN's former (anti-)Israel bureau chief Walter Rodgers wrote ecstatically in the Christian Science Monitor on Wednesday, "America's... superpower status, is being downgraded as rapidly as its economy." The pro-Obama US and European media are so pleased with America's abdication of power that they took the rare step of applauding Obama at his press conference in London. Indeed, the media's enthusiasm for Obama appeared to grow with each presidential statement of contrition for America's past uses of force, each savage attack he leveled against his predecessor George W. Bush, each swipe he took at Israel, and each statement of gratitude for the blessings of Islam he uttered. But while the media couldn't get enough of the new US leader, America's most stable allies worldwide began a desperate search for a reset button that would cause the administration to take back its abandonment of America's role as the protector of the free world. Tokyo was distraught by the administration's reaction to North Korea's three-stage ballistic missile test. Japan recognized the betrayal inherent in Defense Secretary Robert Gates's announcement ahead Pyongyang's newest provocation that the US would only shoot the missile down if it targeted US territory. In one sentence, uttered not in secret consultations, but declared to the world on CNN, Gates abrogated America's strategic commitment to Japan's defense. India, for its part, is concerned by Obama's repeated assertions that its refusal to transfer control over the disputed Jammu and Kashmir provinces to Pakistan inspires Pakistani terror against India. It is equally distressed at the Obama administration's refusal to make ending Pakistan's support for jihadist terror groups attacking India a central component of its strategy for contending with Pakistan and Afghanistan. In general, Indian officials have expressed deep concern over the Obama administration's apparent lack of regard for India as an ally and a significant strategic counterweight to China. Then there is Iraq. During his brief visit to Baghdad on Tuesday afternoon, Obama didn't even pretend that he would ensure that Iraqi democracy and freedom is secured before US forces are withdrawn next year. The most supportive statement he could muster came during his conversation with Turkish students in Istanbul earlier in the day. There he said, "I have a responsibility to make sure that as we bring troops out, that we do so in a careful enough way that we don't see a complete collapse into violence." Hearing Obama's statements, and watching him and his advisers make daily declarations of friendship to Iran's mullahs, Iraqi leaders are considering their options for surviving the rapidly approaching storm. Then there is Europe. Although Obama received enthusiastic applause from his audience in Prague when he announced his intention to destroy the US's nuclear arsenal, drastically scale back its missile defense programs and forge a new alliance with Russia, his words were anything but music to the ears of the leaders of former Soviet satellites threatened by Russia. The Czech, Polish, Georgian and Ukrainian governments were quick to recognize that Obama's strong desire to curry favor with the Kremlin and weaken his own country will imperil their ability to withstand Russian aggression. It is not a coincidence, for instance, that the day Obama returned to Washington, Georgia's Moscow-sponsored opposition announced its plan to launch massive protests in Tblisi to force the ouster of pro-Western, anti-Russian Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. And as for Russia, like Iran, which responded to Obama's latest ode to the mullahs by opening a nuclear fuel plant and announcing it has 7,000 advanced centrifuges in operation, so Moscow reacted to Obama's fig leaf with a machine gun, announcing its refusal to support sanctions against North Korea and repeating its false claim that Iran's nuclear program is nonaggressive. Finally there is Israel. If Obama's assertions that Israel must support the immediate establishment of a Palestinian state, his declarations of support for the so-called Saudi "peace plan," which requires Israel to commit national suicide in exchange for "peace" with the Arab world, and his continuous and increasingly frantic appeals for Iran to "engage" his administration weren't enough to show Israel that Obama is sacrificing the US's alliance with the Jewish state in a bid to appease the Arabs and Iran, on Tuesday Vice President Joseph Biden made this policy explicit. When Biden told CNN that Israel would be "ill-advised" to attack Iran's nuclear installations, he made clear that from the administration's perspective, an Israeli strike that prevents Iran from becoming a nuclear power is less acceptable than a nuclear-armed Iran. That is, the Obama administration prefers to see Iran become a nuclear power than to see Israel secure its very existence. AMERICA'S BETRAYAL of its democratic allies makes each of them more vulnerable to aggression at the hands of their enemies - enemies the Obama administration is now actively attempting to appease. And as the US strengthens their adversaries at their expense, these spurned democracies must consider their options for surviving as free societies in this new, threatening, post-American environment. For the most part, America's scorned allies lack the ability to defeat their enemies on their own. India cannot easily defeat nuclear-armed Pakistan, which itself is fragmenting into disparate anti-Indian nuclear-wielding Islamist and Islamist-supporting factions. Japan today cannot face North Korea - which acts as a Chinese proxy - on its own without risking a confrontation with China. Russia's invasion of Georgia last August showed clearly that its former republics and satellites have no way of escaping Moscow's grip alone. This week's Arab League conference at Doha demonstrated to Iraq's leaders that their Arab brethren are incapable and unwilling to confront Iran. And the Obama administration's intense efforts to woo Iran coupled with its plan to slash the US's missile defense programs - including those in which Israel participates - and reportedly pressure Israel to dismantle its own purported nuclear arsenal - make clear that Israel today stands alone against Iran. THE RISKS that the newly inaugurated post-American world pose for America's threatened friends are clear. But viable opportunities for survival do exist, and Israel can and must play a central role in developing them. Specifically, Israel must move swiftly to develop active strategic alliances with Japan, Iraq, Poland, and the Czech Republic and it must expand its alliance with India. With Israel's technological capabilities, its intelligence and military expertise, it can play a vital role in shoring up these countries' capacities to contain the rogue states that threaten them. And by containing the likes of Russia, North Korea and Pakistan, they will make it easier for Israel to contain Iran even in the face of US support for the mullahs. The possibilities for strategic cooperation between and among all of these states and Israel run the gamut from intelligence sharing to military training, to missile defense, naval development, satellite collaboration, to nuclear cooperation. In addition, of course, expanded economic ties between and among these states can aid each of them in the struggle to stay afloat during the current global economic crisis. Although far from risk free, these opportunities are realistic because they are founded on stable, shared interests. This is the case despite the fact that none of these potential alliances will likely amount to increased support for Israel in international forums. Dependent as they are on Arab oil, these potential allies cannot be expected to vote with Israel in the UN General Assembly. But this should not concern Jerusalem. The only thing that should concern Jerusalem today is how to weaken Iran both directly by attacking its nuclear installations, and indirectly by weakening its international partners in Moscow, Pyongyang, Islamabad and beyond in the absence of US support. If Japan is able to contain North Korea and so limit Pyongyang's freedom to proliferate its nuclear weapons and missiles to Iran and Syria and beyond, Israel is better off. So, too, Israel is better off if Russia is contained by democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe. These nations in turn are better off if Iran is contained and prevented from threatening them both directly and indirectly through its strategic partners in North Korea, Syria and Russia, and its terror affiliates in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. For the past 16 years, successive Israeli governments have wrongly believed that politics trump strategic interests. The notion that informed Israel's decision-makers - not unlike the notion that now informs the Obama administration - was that Israel's strategic interests would be secured as a consequence of its efforts to appease its enemies by weakening itself. Appreciative of Israel's sacrifices for peace, the nations of the world - and particularly the US, the Arabs and Europe - would come to Israel's defense in its hour of need. Now that the hour of need has arrived, Israel's political strategy for securing itself has been exposed as a complete fiasco. The good news is that no doubt sooner rather than later, Obama's similarly disastrous bid to denude the US of its military power under the naive assumption that it will be able to use its new stature as a morally pure strategic weakling to win its enemies over to its side will fail spectacularly and America's foreign policy will revert to strategic rationality. But to survive the current period of American strategic madness, Israel and the US's other unwanted allies must build alliances with one another - covertly if need be - to contain their adversaries in the absence of America. If they do so successfully, then the damage to global security induced by Obama's emasculation of his country will be limited. If on the other hand, they fail, then America's eventual return to its senses will likely come too late for its allies - if not for America itself. caroline at carolineglick.com ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org To subscribe to the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-subscribe at womeningreen.org Check your spam filter for confirmation to reply to To unsubscribe from the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-unsubscribe at womeningreen.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/1374d949/attachment.html From long777 at att.net Sun Apr 12 09:44:27 2009 From: long777 at att.net (Jeremy) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:44:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick In-Reply-To: <490518.39694.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <490518.39694.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c9bb7d$2ea0dc50$4001a8c0@Rainbow> After reading this, I now see America as a weaker country and I am sure leaders around the world have taken notice. Israel is on her own. I feel this is the way it is supposed to be though. Enough relying on the good old USA for security, it is time to rely on HaShem, our Creator and true Protector. Jeremy Ecc 12:13 This is the conclusion; when all has been heard; fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Helen Lusk Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:04 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fw: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Women in Green wrote: From: Women in Green Subject: Surviving in a post-American world by Caroline Glick To: wfit2 at womeningreen.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 12:26 AM Instructions for unsubscribing can be found in the footer of this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Column One: Surviving in a post-American world April 10, 2009 Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Like it or not, the United States of America is no longer the world's policeman. This was the message of Barack Obama's presidential journey to Britain, France, the Czech Republic, Turkey and Iraq this past week. Somewhere between apologizing for American history - both distant and recent; genuflecting before the unelected, bigoted king of Saudi Arabia; announcing that he will slash the US's nuclear arsenal, scrap much of America's missile defense programs and emasculate the US Navy; leaving Japan to face North Korea and China alone; telling the Czechs, Poles and their fellow former Soviet colonies, "Don't worry, be happy," as he leaves them to Moscow's tender mercies; humiliating Iraq's leaders while kowtowing to Iran; preparing for an open confrontation with Israel; and thanking Islam for its great contribution to American history, President Obama made clear to the world's aggressors that America will not be confronting them for the foreseeable future. Whether they are aggressors like Russia, proliferators like North Korea, terror exporters like nuclear-armed Pakistan or would-be genocidal-terror-supporting nuclear states like Iran, today, under the new administration, none of them has any reason to fear Washington. This news is music to the ears of the American Left and their friends in Europe. Obama's supporters like billionaire George Soros couldn't be more excited at the self-induced demise of the American superpower. CNN's former (anti-)Israel bureau chief Walter Rodgers wrote ecstatically in the Christian Science Monitor on Wednesday, "America's... superpower status, is being downgraded as rapidly as its economy." The pro-Obama US and European media are so pleased with America's abdication of power that they took the rare step of applauding Obama at his press conference in London. Indeed, the media's enthusiasm for Obama appeared to grow with each presidential statement of contrition for America's past uses of force, each savage attack he leveled against his predecessor George W. Bush, each swipe he took at Israel, and each statement of gratitude for the blessings of Islam he uttered. But while the media couldn't get enough of the new US leader, America's most stable allies worldwide began a desperate search for a reset button that would cause the administration to take back its abandonment of America's role as the protector of the free world. Tokyo was distraught by the administration's reaction to North Korea's three-stage ballistic missile test. Japan recognized the betrayal inherent in Defense Secretary Robert Gates's announcement ahead Pyongyang's newest provocation that the US would only shoot the missile down if it targeted US territory. In one sentence, uttered not in secret consultations, but declared to the world on CNN, Gates abrogated America's strategic commitment to Japan's defense. India, for its part, is concerned by Obama's repeated assertions that its refusal to transfer control over the disputed Jammu and Kashmir provinces to Pakistan inspires Pakistani terror against India. It is equally distressed at the Obama administration's refusal to make ending Pakistan's support for jihadist terror groups attacking India a central component of its strategy for contending with Pakistan and Afghanistan. In general, Indian officials have expressed deep concern over the Obama administration's apparent lack of regard for India as an ally and a significant strategic counterweight to China. Then there is Iraq. During his brief visit to Baghdad on Tuesday afternoon, Obama didn't even pretend that he would ensure that Iraqi democracy and freedom is secured before US forces are withdrawn next year. The most supportive statement he could muster came during his conversation with Turkish students in Istanbul earlier in the day. There he said, "I have a responsibility to make sure that as we bring troops out, that we do so in a careful enough way that we don't see a complete collapse into violence." Hearing Obama's statements, and watching him and his advisers make daily declarations of friendship to Iran's mullahs, Iraqi leaders are considering their options for surviving the rapidly approaching storm. Then there is Europe. Although Obama received enthusiastic applause from his audience in Prague when he announced his intention to destroy the US's nuclear arsenal, drastically scale back its missile defense programs and forge a new alliance with Russia, his words were anything but music to the ears of the leaders of former Soviet satellites threatened by Russia. The Czech, Polish, Georgian and Ukrainian governments were quick to recognize that Obama's strong desire to curry favor with the Kremlin and weaken his own country will imperil their ability to withstand Russian aggression. It is not a coincidence, for instance, that the day Obama returned to Washington, Georgia's Moscow-sponsored opposition announced its plan to launch massive protests in Tblisi to force the ouster of pro-Western, anti-Russian Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. And as for Russia, like Iran, which responded to Obama's latest ode to the mullahs by opening a nuclear fuel plant and announcing it has 7,000 advanced centrifuges in operation, so Moscow reacted to Obama's fig leaf with a machine gun, announcing its refusal to support sanctions against North Korea and repeating its false claim that Iran's nuclear program is nonaggressive. Finally there is Israel. If Obama's assertions that Israel must support the immediate establishment of a Palestinian state, his declarations of support for the so-called Saudi "peace plan," which requires Israel to commit national suicide in exchange for "peace" with the Arab world, and his continuous and increasingly frantic appeals for Iran to "engage" his administration weren't enough to show Israel that Obama is sacrificing the US's alliance with the Jewish state in a bid to appease the Arabs and Iran, on Tuesday Vice President Joseph Biden made this policy explicit. When Biden told CNN that Israel would be "ill-advised" to attack Iran's nuclear installations, he made clear that from the administration's perspective, an Israeli strike that prevents Iran from becoming a nuclear power is less acceptable than a nuclear-armed Iran. That is, the Obama administration prefers to see Iran become a nuclear power than to see Israel secure its very existence. AMERICA'S BETRAYAL of its democratic allies makes each of them more vulnerable to aggression at the hands of their enemies - enemies the Obama administration is now actively attempting to appease. And as the US strengthens their adversaries at their expense, these spurned democracies must consider their options for surviving as free societies in this new, threatening, post-American environment. For the most part, America's scorned allies lack the ability to defeat their enemies on their own. India cannot easily defeat nuclear-armed Pakistan, which itself is fragmenting into disparate anti-Indian nuclear-wielding Islamist and Islamist-supporting factions. Japan today cannot face North Korea - which acts as a Chinese proxy - on its own without risking a confrontation with China. Russia's invasion of Georgia last August showed clearly that its former republics and satellites have no way of escaping Moscow's grip alone. This week's Arab League conference at Doha demonstrated to Iraq's leaders that their Arab brethren are incapable and unwilling to confront Iran. And the Obama administration's intense efforts to woo Iran coupled with its plan to slash the US's missile defense programs - including those in which Israel participates - and reportedly pressure Israel to dismantle its own purported nuclear arsenal - make clear that Israel today stands alone against Iran. THE RISKS that the newly inaugurated post-American world pose for America's threatened friends are clear. But viable opportunities for survival do exist, and Israel can and must play a central role in developing them. Specifically, Israel must move swiftly to develop active strategic alliances with Japan, Iraq, Poland, and the Czech Republic and it must expand its alliance with India. With Israel's technological capabilities, its intelligence and military expertise, it can play a vital role in shoring up these countries' capacities to contain the rogue states that threaten them. And by containing the likes of Russia, North Korea and Pakistan, they will make it easier for Israel to contain Iran even in the face of US support for the mullahs. The possibilities for strategic cooperation between and among all of these states and Israel run the gamut from intelligence sharing to military training, to missile defense, naval development, satellite collaboration, to nuclear cooperation. In addition, of course, expanded economic ties between and among these states can aid each of them in the struggle to stay afloat during the current global economic crisis. Although far from risk free, these opportunities are realistic because they are founded on stable, shared interests. This is the case despite the fact that none of these potential alliances will likely amount to increased support for Israel in international forums. Dependent as they are on Arab oil, these potential allies cannot be expected to vote with Israel in the UN General Assembly. But this should not concern Jerusalem. The only thing that should concern Jerusalem today is how to weaken Iran both directly by attacking its nuclear installations, and indirectly by weakening its international partners in Moscow, Pyongyang, Islamabad and beyond in the absence of US support. If Japan is able to contain North Korea and so limit Pyongyang's freedom to proliferate its nuclear weapons and missiles to Iran and Syria and beyond, Israel is better off. So, too, Israel is better off if Russia is contained by democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe. These nations in turn are better off if Iran is contained and prevented from threatening them both directly and indirectly through its strategic partners in North Korea, Syria and Russia, and its terror affiliates in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. For the past 16 years, successive Israeli governments have wrongly believed that politics trump strategic interests. The notion that informed Israel's decision-makers - not unlike the notion that now informs the Obama administration - was that Israel's strategic interests would be secured as a consequence of its efforts to appease its enemies by weakening itself. Appreciative of Israel's sacrifices for peace, the nations of the world - and particularly the US, the Arabs and Europe - would come to Israel's defense in its hour of need. Now that the hour of need has arrived, Israel's political strategy for securing itself has been exposed as a complete fiasco. The good news is that no doubt sooner rather than later, Obama's similarly disastrous bid to denude the US of its military power under the naive assumption that it will be able to use its new stature as a morally pure strategic weakling to win its enemies over to its side will fail spectacularly and America's foreign policy will revert to strategic rationality. But to survive the current period of American strategic madness, Israel and the US's other unwanted allies must build alliances with one another - covertly if need be - to contain their adversaries in the absence of America. If they do so successfully, then the damage to global security induced by Obama's emasculation of his country will be limited. If on the other hand, they fail, then America's eventual return to its senses will likely come too late for its allies - if not for America itself. caroline at carolineglick.com ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org To subscribe to the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-subscribe at womeningreen.org Check your spam filter for confirmation to reply to To unsubscribe from the Women in Green list, please send a blank email message to: list4-unsubscribe at womeningreen.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/972c4c13/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 09:49:23 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:49:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam In-Reply-To: <49E1ED02.4000105@westnet.com.au> References: <49E1ED02.4000105@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Dear Joe, Thank you so much. May we all cross (unencumbered) over the Jordan, to live in harmony and with the deep respect due our Brother, Judah, who has been awaiting our arrival on the other side these past two and half millenia. Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 9:30 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Shavua Tov Chaverim, I hope you all had a blessed Pesach and associated Seders with your families and friends and the extension of the Chag through the second day and then Shabbat. This extended time out gave me some extra time to contemplate some very unsavoury things that were said on the list prior to Chag Pesach. Some of these sentiments that were said were very hurtful to some members of the list and should never of been said or at least enunciated in a different spirit. Rather than shooting off the hip, I decided to hold my peace before Pesach rather than let these words sour the spirit of the occasion, being the season of the liberation from bondage. I am glad that I did. Unfortunately , I sense that some of you have been overwhelmed and hurt by the remarks. I now wish that they had not been said in the first place and that the differences been thrashed out by private email rather than personal jibes on the list. This of course is meant to protect those on the list who are here to learn and are earnestly seeking the truth. These people are coming with broken spirits from different religious backgrounds. They are hungry and are open to different view points. We owe them our utmost respect. One thing that binds us together is our love of HaShem, His Torah , His people and His land. I had so many other things that I wanted to share with you after Pesach, but I felt compelled to write on this issue first to clear the air. Please do not think that I am standing on moral high ground here. I am humbly submitting to you some facts that I feel have shaped the world that we live in. The results of which we are trying to unravel in a dangerous, volatile and dark world. We have to admit that we do not have a clue and hence HaShem will unravel it for us, blessed be His Name. TORAH In the Torah we consistently read time and time again: ? ??????? ??????????, ????-??????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????: ??????? ????????? ??????? ???????, ???????? ???????. 5 that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.' I have never read - Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yishmael (Islam), Elohei Esav(Christianity). Yes , granted He is Elohei of all humanity, but the very words of His Torah explain that we know Him by who He is related to through His election. So at the very best, these so called Abrahamic faiths have the legacy of Avraham, the original river crosser who left all behind in obedience to HaShem. He left the world of idolatry. Now it is interesting that the Torah at the end of chapter 35 in Genesis tells us who the twelve sons of Yaacov are. We then read about the death of Yitzchak and his burial. The 36th chapter is exclusively dedicated to Esav and his descendents before we get to the 37th chapter were the story of Yosef commences. >From the Stone Edition Chumash : "It is fundamental to a proper understanding of the scriptural narratives that the Torah is not a history book and that whatever it records must have a halachic or moral purpose. Many important principles of halachah are derived from a seemingly superfluous word or even letter, or from allusions suggested from the syntax or construction. Consequently , it is obvious that the Torah would not have devoted an entire chapter to Esav's genealogy unless it contained vital teachings. In the literal sense of the verses and from parallel genealogies in Chronicles, it becomes clear that many of Esav's descendants were products of incest and illegitimacy. Furthermore, the Torah teaches us that the honour that came to Esav because he was a descendant of Avraham." "The Torah lists eight Edomite kings who reigned before the first Jewish king, Shaul. Rashi cites this verse as an example of the prophecy given to Rebecca that the might shall pass from one of them to the other Gen 25:23. , meaning that the two brothers would not both be great simultaneously . Thus, when Esav had kings, Israel had none, and when Israel rose up, Esav declined, and his kings were defeated by Israel. Conversely, for the past two thousand years Esav's offspring, in their various manifestations, have held sway and the Jewish people have been exiled from their land and former glory. In time to come, however - may it be speedily in our day - the prophetic assurance (Ovadiah 1:21) will be fulfilled: Saviours will ascend to Mount Zion to render judgment upon [ those who trace their greatness to] the mountain of Esav, and the kingdom will be HaShem's. Ovadiah was the convert from Edom who secretly looked after HaShem's prophets during the the days of Eliyahu. His wife was the widow who had the miracle of the oil in the jar bestowed upon her from HaShem through the prophet Elisha. " The Midrash concludes its expositions on the Sidrah with the following parable: The wheat, the straw, and the stubble engaged in controversy . The wheat said, "For my sake has the field been sown." The straw said, " For my sake has the field been sown." The stubble said, " For my sake has the field been sown." Said the wheat to them, " When the time comes, you will see." When the harvest time came , the farmer took the stubble and burnt it, scattered the straw, and pilled the wheat in a stack, which everyone kissed. Similarly, Israel and the nations have a controversy , each asserting, "For our sake was the world created." Says Israel, "The hour will come in the Messianic future and you will see how- you shall fan them and the wind shall carry them away (Isaiah 41:16); but as for Israel - And you shall rejoice in HaShem, you shall glory in the Holy One of Israel (ibid). It is interesting that the next chapter of Genesis after the genealogy of Esav deals with the advent of Yosef. ?? ??????? ????-??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????, ?????? ?????? ??????, ????????? ?????, ??????????; ?????-??????? ??????? ?????? ??????, ???? ?????? ???????. 18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken. >From chapter 36 of Genesis we see the marriage of Esav and Yismael. The offspring of this union is Amalek. The direct commandment of HaShem calls for the eradication of Amelek. This marriage of convenience will repeat itself over the subsequent centuries. The last manifestation was during the Third Reich of Hitler who was supported by the Vatican, American industrialists and the Mufti of Yerushalayim. What did they have in common...... a putrid hatred of the Jewish people. This is Amelek incarnate. The last and final manifestation of this will be the unholy confederated alliance of Gog u'Magog. HISTORY The annuls of history teach us one thing. Those that forget it will be destined to repeat it. Both Islam and Christianity are false religions with their own forms of replacement and or displacement theology. The pages of the history of both religions are stained with blood. However, what is alarming about the current status in the world is the rhetoric that is being flung about. There has been much said about the separation of state and religion. This may have been the cause of the American constitution. But reality tells us that this has not been the case, either in world history or American history. European history is quite evident. However, American history is somewhat obscure. The founding American fathers who were escaping the religious persecutions of Europe, made it quite clear that this separation of state and religion was a necessary ingredient in the freedom of religious worship without persecution. Quite noble in its inception as a measure of human rights and dignity, its underlying foundation was the Bible. So we may say that any constitution without the moral fibre of the Torah is doomed to failure. The Torah being the blue print for the world constitution. The Torah does not separate the state and religion. In fact all the kings of Israel were commanded to personally write their own Sefer Torah and that this scroll should accompany them all the days of their rulership. They were to meditate on it day and night as was the case of King David. Democracy is not the language of the Torah. It belongs to the Greek world and has become the raison d'etre of all modern western governments. The religion of America is democracy and liberal democracy at that. Many a migrant when they landed on Ellis Island were confronted by a classical statue of a lady with a torch that gave them hope of liberty. Many came from countries where they were persecuted because of race and religion. Torah values took a back seat in the quest for equality. America became the bastion of the defenders of democracy. There is a twist. The very thing that made America great is now coming back to haunt her. She demanded democratic elections in the Palestinian territories and in return the Palestinians formally elected the terrorist regime of Chamas. She demanded democratic elections in Pakistan and compromised her staunch ally on the war on terror, President Mushariff. Pakistan is now for the taking by radical Islamists. She is stuck in the quagmire of Iraq with Iran ready to pounce. She has betrayed her ally Israel in the pursuit of the Palestinian democratic right for self determination. So much for the Tanach. G-d only knows where the new Obama administration will take us. It must be stated that Great Britain and France were the instigators of much of the mess that we see in the Middle East. At the demise of the Ottoman empire and under her mandate Britain carved up Mesopotamia with scant regard for the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shiites. The establishment of Kuwait and the Gulf Emirates were to ensure her supply of oil. The establishment of the Palestinian mandate was again a refutation of the Balfour Declaration of 1917. In 1922, under pressure from Winston Churchill, Britain reneged her pledge to appease the Arabs of Lawrence. Her post war handling of Jewish war refugees will go down in the pages of infamy. The carving up of Hindustan into India and Pakistan is a legacy that still has to play out its final solution. Not to mention the French colonial interests in Northern Africa, Lebanon and Syria and the other colonial European nations. Habakkuk Chapter 2 ? ???-????????????? ?????????, ?????????????? ???-??????; ??????????, ???????? ???-????????-????, ????? ???????, ???-????????????. 1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will look out to see what He will speak by me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. ? ???????????? ??????, ?????????, ?????? ??????, ??????? ???-?????????--??????? ??????, ?????? ???. 2 And the LORD answered me, and said: 'Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that a man may read it swiftly. ? ???? ???? ?????? ?????????, ???????? ?????? ????? ????????; ???-????????????, ??????-???--????-??? ?????, ??? ???????. 3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declareth of the end, and doth not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' ? ?????? ????????, ???-???????? ???????? ????; ?????????, ????????????? ???????. {?} 4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. {S} ? ????? ????-???????? ??????, ?????? ?????? ????? ???????: ?????? ???????? ?????????? ????????, ?????? ???????? ????? ?????????, ?????????? ?????? ????-?????????, ??????????? ?????? ????-?????????. 5 Yea, moreover, wine is a treacherous dealer; the haughty man abideth not; he who enlargeth his desire as the nether-world, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all peoples. ? ??????-?????? ??????, ?????? ?????? ?????????, ??????????, ??????? ???; ????????, ???? ??????????? ????-???--???-?????, ??????????? ?????? ????????. 6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting riddle against him, and say: 'Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and that ladeth himself with many pledges!' ? ?????? ?????, ???????? ??????????, ?????????, ?????????????; ????????? ????????????, ?????. 7 Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall exact interest of thee, and awake that shall violently shake thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them? ? ????-?????? ????????? ??????? ???????, ??????????? ????-????? ???????; ???????? ????? ???????-?????, ??????? ?????-???????? ????. {?} 8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. {P} ? ????, ??????? ?????? ???--????????: ??????? ?????????? ??????, ?????????? ??????-???. 9 Woe to him that gaineth evil gains for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! ? ????????? ???????, ?????????; ??????-??????? ???????, ???????? ?????????. 10 Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. ?? ????-?????, ??????? ????????; ????????, ????? ??????????. {?} 11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. {P} ?? ???? ?????? ????, ?????????; ???????? ???????, ??????????. 12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity! ?? ?????? ??????, ????? ?????? ????????; ?????????? ??????? ??????-????, ??????????? ??????-???? ???????. 13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? ?? ???? ????????? ???????, ??????? ???-??????? ??????, ?????????, ???????? ???-???. {?} 14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. {P} ?? ???? ???????? ???????, ????????? ???????? ????? ???????--??????? ???????, ???-???????????. 15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy venom thereto, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! ?? ?????????? ?????? ?????????, ?????? ???-?????? ?????????; ???????? ???????, ????? ?????? ??????, ???????????, ???-??????????. 16 Thou art filled with shame instead of glory, drink thou also, and be uncovered; the cup of the LORD'S right hand shall be turned unto thee, and filthiness shall be upon thy glory. ?? ???? ????? ???????? ??????????, ?????? ????????? ????????, ???????? ????? ???????-?????, ??????? ?????-???????? ????. 17 For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. ?? ???-??????? ??????, ???? ??????? ???????--????????, ???????? ???????: ???? ????? ????? ???????, ??????, ?????????, ????????? ?????????. {?} 18 What profiteth the graven image, that the maker thereof hath graven it, even the molten image, and the teacher of lies; that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? {S} ?? ???? ????? ????? ????????, ?????? ??????? ???????; ???? ??????--??????-???? ???????? ????? ???????, ?????-????? ???? ???????????. 19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood: 'Awake', to the dumb stone: 'Arise!' Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. ? ???????, ????????? ????????: ??? ?????????, ????-???????. {?} 20 But the LORD is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him. {S} RELIGION Karl Marx claimed that religion was the opiate of the masses. The false religions of Christianity and Islam are revisiting their respective illustrious pasts. Both these religions have been classified as Abrahamic faiths. They, unlike Avraham are not willing to cross the river and leave the past behind. The current Pope, Benedict XVI , as his predecessor John Paul II, has consistently urged all Europeans not to forget what made them great in the past. In a Europe that lacks unity, the Papal plea is seen as the glue that will revive the past glorious colonial era when nations armed with the gospel conquered the world. No separation of state and religion here. This would put the vatican at the forefront of an energized Europe where ethnic division would be overcome by a common Christian background. Remember that the tenet of Christianity as recorded in the NT is to go and make converts. European Christians rarely objected to the exploitation of the colonies because they benefited from this slavery. The cry has gone out amongst the Muslim nations to engage in the reestablishment of the Caliphate. The call is - look at what made you great in the past. Conversion by the sword is the catch cry. Jihad against the infidels is again on the lips of many radicals. Remember that the Arabs were very active in slavery from the horn of Africa. Both these religions will quote from their holy scriptures in order to justify their actions. Whether they interpolate or misconstrue for political advantage is not the issue. The crux of the matter is that they have replaced the Word of the Living G-d, Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, Elohei Yaacov. Whilst they claim Moshe, Elijah, Isa (Jesus) son of Mary ( who in the Quran has been identified as Miriam ,the sister of Moshe), Solomon/ Suleman, Yosef / Yusef , etc, etc, they have rejected the Torah of HaShem. This brings me to the current season of the Hebrew calender, Pesach. Jews around the world together with gentile G-d fearers celebrated the feast. They recalled what made them great...... THE EXODUS from Egypt and the giving of the Divine revelation of Torah at Mount Sinai. They were redeemed from slavery. The message of true hope and freedom came to the world. The testimony of release from debt and slavery in the Sabbatical year came to a world that was and is still entrenched in slavery. They never embarked on Crusades, Jihads or altar calls. Conversion is extremely hard as the convertee must understand what is at stake and the responsibility that it entails. However, unlike the other religions there is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. This is not a case of good and bad in every religion. This is not a case of everyone to their own in a politically correct world.This is a case of truth and error. I for one do not want to be a "good" lier. I would rather be a "bad" repenter who returns to the truth of HaShem. Do we have the guts to stand up for truth and call evil for what it is, irrespective of the religious veil that it carries. Or are we going to be silenced by the insanity of political correctness. There are those who have taken the step away from Christianity. Many of you on the list are in this "called out group." In the world of Islam there is Sheik Abdul Palazzi who is a beacon of light for his followers as few as they may be. The Torah is the start and the end of the Divine revelation with the Prophets as witness to this revelation and the means of Teshuva. If they deviate from the Torah, they are false. The Torah is the constitution of Israel and B'Ezrat HaShem will soon be the constitution of the world. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Join Avraham and cross the river. Join Israel and cross the Sea of Reeds. Join Joshua and cross the Jordan. Join David and cross the Kidron. The land of eternal truth is waiting. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/4033bc1d/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 12 09:55:50 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:55:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Who is Obama? In-Reply-To: <49E1EEC0.4010505@gninc.ca> References: <49E1EEC0.4010505@gninc.ca> Message-ID: Am with you, Dear Cornie. Thank you, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Who is Obama? Shalom all, Now this is my understanding. " I believe we need to get our hearts set in emuna, the Hebrew interpretation of this word "emuna" that is ten times stronger than what we have been taught that faith means in the Christian world." The following is taken from "One Jerusalem Post" I want to take to heart the counting of the Omer, as it has been encouraged to, to come to the unity of Torah truth. Our only true instruction manual, how to conduct our lives while on this sojourn here below. Cornie ? Obama And The Mullahs II | Home [04.07.2009] Obama Pleases Muslims, Lectures Israel As President Obama, makes his first visit to Iraq it is a good time to reflect on what we have learned about this largely unknown leader after his whirlwind tour to Europe and Turkey. One of his persistent themes has been that the United States of America will no longer dictate policy but will listen and engage friends and foes on the international stage. Given his foreign audiences this refrain repeatedly received enthusiastic applause. But no sooner had he set foot in Turkey and his tone changed. Speaking to the Turkish Parliament, Obama stopped listening and started lecturing Israel and our European allies. While he bent over backwards to assure his Muslim audience that the United States will never be at war with Islam he used the same setting to declare his Administration's commitment to a Palestinian State (which means a division of Jerusalem), the Annapolis "Peace" Process, and the Road Map. He made these policy decisions without even giving Israel the benefit of discussing these issues before setting policy. In other words, he is in favor of engaging Iran, a less friendly Turkey, and even North Korea but he has not even acknowledged that the people of Israel have elected a new government that rejected the failed policies Obama has now embraced.There is no excuse for this hostile behavior toward Israel. But Israel was not the only ally on the receiving end of an Obama lecture. To please his Turkish hosts, Obama stuck his nose into the question of whether Turkey should be a member of the European Union. Obama and the United States have no standing in this debate but an uninvited Obama opined anyway. France's President Sarkozy responded by telling Obama to stay out of this debate. At the same time Obama failed to fulfill a campaign promise to demand that Turkey apologize for the genocide it committed against the Armenian people. During his presidential campaign Obama and his adviser Samantha Power exploited this issue in Armenian-American communities. But when Obama had a forum to state his position he remained mute. It is becoming clear that Obama's plan is to try and win over the Muslim world by refraining from criticizing them and by siding with them against Israel's best interests.Friends of Israel and America's best interests get ready for a protracted battle with the Obama Administration. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/abb9766c/attachment.html From j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 12 11:57:21 2009 From: j.h.lusk234 at sbcglobal.net (Helen Lusk) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 09:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam Message-ID: <969980.55506.qm@web82501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shalom, Joe: ? Thank you for this post. May we all make our crossings safely and reach the our homeland of eternal truth. ? Shalom to everyone and have a good week ahead, ? Kind regards, ? Helen ? --- On Sun, 4/12/09, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: From: JOE INDOMENICO Subject: [Dialogue] Obama declares US not at war with Islam To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 9:30 AM Shavua Tov Chaverim, I hope you all had a blessed Pesach and associated Seders with your families and friends and the extension of the Chag through the second day and then Shabbat. This extended time out gave me some extra time to contemplate some very unsavoury things that were said on the list prior to Chag Pesach. Some of these sentiments that were said were very hurtful to some members of the list and should never of been said or at least enunciated in a different spirit. Rather than shooting off the hip, I decided to hold my peace before Pesach rather than let these words sour the spirit of the occasion, being the season of the liberation from bondage. I am glad that I did. Unfortunately , I sense that some of you have been overwhelmed and hurt by the remarks. I now wish that they had not been said in the first place and that the differences been thrashed out by private email rather than personal jibes on the list. This of course is meant to protect those on the list who are here to learn and are earnestly seeking the truth. These people are coming with broken spirits from different religious backgrounds. They are hungry and are open to different view points. We owe them our utmost respect. One thing that binds us together is our love of HaShem, His Torah , His people and His land. I had so many other things that I wanted to share with you after Pesach, but I felt compelled to write on this issue first to clear the air. Please do not think that I am standing on moral high ground here. I am humbly submitting to you some facts that I feel have shaped the world that we live in. The results of which we are trying to unravel in a dangerous, volatile and dark world. We have to admit that we do not have a clue and hence HaShem will unravel it for us, blessed be His Name. TORAH ? In the Torah we consistently read time and time again: ?????????? ?????????, ???-?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???????:? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????, ???????? ???????. 5 that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.' I have never read - Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yishmael (Islam), Elohei Esav(Christianity). Yes , granted He is Elohei of all humanity, but the very words of His Torah explain that we know Him by who He is related to through His election. So at the very best, these so called Abrahamic faiths have the legacy of Avraham, the original river crosser who left all behind in obedience to HaShem. He left the world of idolatry. Now it is interesting that the Torah at the end of chapter 35 in Genesis tells us who the twelve sons of Yaacov are. We then read about the death of Yitzchak and his burial. The 36th chapter is exclusively dedicated to Esav and his descendents before we get to the 37th chapter were the story of Yosef commences. >From the Stone Edition Chumash : "It is fundamental to a proper understanding of the scriptural narratives that the Torah is not a history book and that whatever it records must have a halachic or moral purpose. Many important principles of halachah are derived from a seemingly superfluous word or even letter, or from allusions suggested from the syntax or construction. Consequently , it is obvious that the Torah would not have devoted an entire chapter to Esav's genealogy unless it contained vital teachings. In the literal sense of the verses and from parallel genealogies in Chronicles, it becomes clear that many of Esav's descendants were products of incest and illegitimacy. Furthermore, the Torah teaches us that the honour that came to Esav because he was a descendant of Avraham." "The Torah lists eight Edomite kings who reigned before the first Jewish king, Shaul. Rashi cites this verse as an example of the prophecy given to Rebecca that the might shall pass from one of them to the other Gen 25:23. , meaning that the two brothers would not both be great simultaneously . Thus, when Esav had kings, Israel had none, and when Israel rose up, Esav declined, and his kings were defeated by Israel. Conversely, for the past two thousand years Esav's offspring, in their various manifestations, have held sway and the Jewish people have been exiled from their land and former glory. In time to come, however - may it be speedily in our day - the prophetic assurance (Ovadiah 1:21) will be fulfilled: Saviours will ascend to Mount Zion to render judgment upon [ those who trace their greatness to] the mountain of Esav, and the kingdom will be HaShem's. Ovadiah was the convert from Edom who secretly looked after HaShem's prophets during the the days of Eliyahu. His wife was the widow who had the miracle of the oil in the jar bestowed upon her from HaShem through the prophet Elisha. " The Midrash concludes its expositions on the Sidrah with the following parable: The wheat, the straw, and the stubble engaged in controversy . The wheat said, "For my sake has the field been sown." The straw said, " For my sake has the field been sown." The stubble said, " For my sake has the field been sown." Said the wheat to them, " When the time comes, you will see." When the harvest time came , the farmer took the stubble and burnt it, scattered the straw, and pilled the wheat in a stack, which everyone kissed. Similarly, Israel and the nations have a controversy , each asserting, "For our sake was the world created." Says Israel, "The hour will come in the Messianic future and you will see how- you shall fan them and the wind shall carry them away (Isaiah 41:16);? but as for Israel - And you shall rejoice in HaShem, you shall glory in the Holy One of Israel (ibid). It is interesting that the next chapter of Genesis after the genealogy of Esav deals with the advent of Yosef. ??????????? ????-??????? ??? ????? ????? ???????, ????? ????? ?????, ???????? ?????, ?????????; ?????-?????? ?????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????. 18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken. >From chapter 36 of Genesis we see the marriage of Esav and Yismael. The offspring of this union is Amalek. The direct commandment of HaShem calls for the eradication of Amelek. This marriage of convenience will repeat itself over the subsequent centuries. The last manifestation was during the Third Reich of Hitler who was supported by the Vatican, American industrialists?? and the Mufti of Yerushalayim. What did they have in common...... a putrid hatred of the Jewish people. This is Amelek incarnate. The last and final manifestation of this will be the unholy confederated alliance of Gog u'Magog. HISTORY The annuls of history teach us one thing. Those that forget it will be destined to repeat it. Both Islam and Christianity are false religions with their own forms of replacement and or displacement theology. The pages of the history of both religions are stained with blood. However, what is alarming about the current status in the world is the rhetoric that is being flung about. There has been much said about the separation of state and religion. This may have been the cause of the American constitution. But reality tells us that this has not been the case, either in world history or American history. European history is quite evident. However, American history is somewhat obscure. The founding American fathers who were escaping the religious persecutions of Europe, made it quite clear that this separation of state and religion was a necessary ingredient in the freedom of religious worship without persecution. Quite noble in its inception as a measure of human rights and dignity, its underlying foundation was the Bible. So we may say that any constitution without the moral fibre of the Torah is doomed to failure. The Torah being the blue print for the world constitution. The Torah does not separate the state and religion. In fact all the kings of Israel were commanded to personally write their own Sefer Torah? and that this scroll should accompany them all the days of their rulership. They were to meditate on it day and night as was the case of King David. Democracy is not the language of the Torah. It belongs to the Greek world and has become the raison d'etre of all modern western governments. The religion of America is democracy and liberal democracy at that. Many a migrant when they landed on Ellis Island were confronted by a classical statue of a lady with a torch that gave them hope of liberty. Many came from countries where they were persecuted because of race and religion. Torah values took a back seat in the quest for equality. America became the bastion of the defenders of democracy. There is a twist. The very thing that made America great is now coming back to haunt her. She demanded democratic elections in the Palestinian territories and in return the Palestinians formally elected the terrorist regime of Chamas. She demanded democratic elections in Pakistan and compromised her staunch ally on the war on terror, President Mushariff. Pakistan is now for the taking by radical Islamists. She is stuck in the quagmire of Iraq with Iran ready to pounce. She has betrayed her ally Israel in the pursuit of the Palestinian democratic right for self determination. So much for the Tanach. G-d only knows where the new Obama administration will take us. It must be stated that Great Britain and France were the instigators of much of the mess that we see in the Middle East. At the demise of the Ottoman empire and under her mandate Britain carved up Mesopotamia with scant regard for the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shiites. The establishment of Kuwait and the Gulf Emirates were to ensure her supply of oil. The establishment of the Palestinian mandate was again a refutation of the Balfour Declaration of 1917. In 1922, under pressure from Winston Churchill, Britain reneged her pledge to appease the Arabs of Lawrence. Her post war handling of Jewish war refugees will go down in the pages of infamy. The carving up of Hindustan into India and Pakistan is a legacy that still has to play out its final solution. Not to mention the French colonial interests in Northern Africa, Lebanon and Syria and the other colonial European nations. Habakkuk Chapter 2 ??????-??????????? ?????????, ????????????? ???-?????; ?????????, ??????? ???-???????-???, ???? ?????, ???-?????????. 1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will look out to see what He will speak by me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved. ?????????????? ??????, ????????, ????? ?????, ?????? ???-???????--??????? ?????, ????? ??. 2 And the LORD answered me, and said: 'Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that a man may read it swiftly. ?????? ??? ????? ???????, ???????? ????? ????? ???????; ???-??????????, ?????-??--???-??? ?????, ??? ??????. 3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it declareth of the end, and doth not lie; though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.' ???????? ???????, ???-??????? ?????? ??; ????????, ?????????? ??????.? {?} 4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith. {S} ??????? ???-?????? ?????, ????? ?????? ????? ??????:? ????? ???????? ??????? ??????, ????? ??????? ????? ??????, ????????? ?????? ???-??????, ????????? ?????? ???-????????. 5 Yea, moreover, wine is a treacherous dealer; the haughty man abideth not; he who enlargeth his desire as the nether-world, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all peoples. ????????-????? ?????, ?????? ????? ?????, ?????????, ?????? ??; ????????, ??? ????????? ???-??--???-?????, ????????? ?????? ????????. 6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting riddle against him, and say: 'Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and that ladeth himself with many pledges!' ???????? ?????, ?????? ?????????, ???????, ?????????????; ???????? ?????????, ????. 7 Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall exact interest of thee, and awake that shall violently shake thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them? ??????-???? ?????? ???? ??????, ???????? ???-????? ??????; ??????? ???? ???????-?????, ??????? ?????-??????? ???.? {?} 8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. {P} ??????, ?????? ????? ???--???????:? ????? ??????? ????, ????????? ?????-???. 9 Woe to him that gaineth evil gains for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! ??????????? ?????, ?????????; ?????-?????? ??????, ??????? ????????. 10 Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. ???????-?????, ?????? ???????; ????????, ????? ?????????.? {?} 11 For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. {P} ??????? ????? ????, ????????; ??????? ???????, ?????????. 12 Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity! ????????? ?????, ????? ?????? ???????; ???????? ?????? ?????-???, ????????? ?????-???? ?????. 13 Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? ??????? ??????? ??????, ??????? ???-????? ??????, ??????, ?????? ???-???.? {?} 14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. {P} ??????? ??????? ??????, ???????? ???????? ???? ?????--??????? ??????, ???-??????????. 15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy venom thereto, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! ???????????? ????? ???????, ????? ???-???? ?????????; ????? ???????, ??? ?????? ??????, ??????????, ???-????????. 16 Thou art filled with shame instead of glory, drink thou also, and be uncovered; the cup of the LORD'S right hand shall be turned unto thee, and filthiness shall be upon thy glory. ??????? ????? ??????? ????????, ????? ??????? ????????, ??????? ???? ???????-?????, ??????? ?????-??????? ???. 17 For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. ???????-?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ??????--???????, ?????? ?????:? ??? ????? ????? ?????, ??????, ???????, ????????? ????????.? {?} 18 What profiteth the graven image, that the maker thereof hath graven it, even the molten image, and the teacher of lies; that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? {S} ??????? ????? ????? ????????, ????? ??????? ?????; ??? ?????--?????-??? ????? ????? ???????, ?????-???? ???? ????????. 19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood: 'Awake', to the dumb stone: 'Arise!' Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. ??????????, ???????? ??????:? ??? ????????, ???-??????.? {?} 20 But the LORD is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before Him. {S} RELIGION Karl Marx claimed that religion was the opiate of the masses. The false religions of Christianity and Islam are revisiting their respective illustrious pasts. Both these religions have been classified as Abrahamic faiths. They, unlike Avraham are not willing to cross the river and leave the past behind. The current Pope, Benedict XVI , as his predecessor John Paul II, has consistently urged all Europeans not to forget what made them great in the past. In a Europe that lacks unity, the Papal plea is seen as the glue that will revive the past glorious colonial era when nations armed with the gospel conquered the world. No separation of state and religion here. This would put the vatican at the forefront of an energized Europe where ethnic division would be overcome by a common Christian background. Remember that the tenet of Christianity as recorded in the NT is to go and make converts. European Christians rarely objected to the exploitation of the colonies because they benefited from this slavery. The cry has gone out amongst the Muslim nations to engage in the reestablishment of the Caliphate. The call is - look at what made you great in the past. Conversion by the sword is the catch cry. Jihad against the infidels is again on the lips of many radicals. Remember that the Arabs were very active in slavery from the horn of Africa. Both these religions will quote from their holy scriptures in order to justify their actions. Whether they interpolate or misconstrue for political advantage is not the issue. The crux of the matter is that they have replaced the Word of the Living G-d, Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, Elohei Yaacov. Whilst they claim Moshe, Elijah, Isa (Jesus) son of Mary ( who in the Quran has been identified as Miriam ,the sister of Moshe), Solomon/ Suleman, Yosef / Yusef , etc, etc, they have rejected the Torah of HaShem. This brings me to the current season of the Hebrew calender, Pesach. Jews around the world together with gentile G-d fearers celebrated the feast. They recalled what made them great...... THE EXODUS from Egypt and the giving of the Divine revelation of Torah at Mount Sinai. They were redeemed from slavery. The message of true hope and freedom came to the world. The testimony of release from debt and slavery in the Sabbatical year came to a world that was and is still entrenched in slavery. They never embarked on Crusades, Jihads or altar calls. Conversion is extremely hard as the convertee must understand what is at stake and the responsibility that it entails. However, unlike the other religions there is a place in the world to come for righteous gentiles. This is not a case of good and bad in every religion. This is not a case of everyone to their own in a politically correct world.This is a case of truth and error. I for one do not want to be a "good" lier. I would rather be a "bad" repenter who returns to the truth of HaShem. Do we have the guts to stand up for truth and call evil for what it is, irrespective of the religious veil that it carries. Or are we going to be silenced by the insanity of political correctness. There are those who have taken the step away from Christianity. Many of you on the list are in this "called out group." In the world of Islam there is Sheik Abdul Palazzi who is a beacon of light for his followers as few as they may be. The Torah is the start and the end of the Divine revelation with the Prophets as witness to this revelation and the means of Teshuva. If they deviate from the Torah, they are false. The Torah is the constitution of Israel and B'Ezrat HaShem will soon be the constitution of the world. "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." Join Avraham and cross the river. Join Israel and cross the Sea of Reeds. Join Joshua and cross the Jordan. Join David and cross the Kidron. The land of eternal truth is waiting. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/2a5e5884/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 12:26:40 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Poll Message-ID: <961695.92777.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MSNBC has a current poll going whether the words In God We Trust should remain on our currency. Anyone have any thoughts on this? ? Susie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/ddb89d03/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Apr 12 13:48:41 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:48:41 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik Message-ID: <74FB7DA4572C422696766F33D4CEE0F9@Beeblebrox> Shalom All, I would like to honour the memory of a much maligned man, yet a tsadik in his time - my rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef. He is reported to have been murdered around this time of year - an innocent man whose obedience and devotion to God has been the source of my own journey 'out of Egypt'. Sharon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/aad2024b/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Sun Apr 12 13:58:51 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik In-Reply-To: <74FB7DA4572C422696766F33D4CEE0F9@Beeblebrox> Message-ID: <644700.63459.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> He is the one that started me on my journey too.? I will always be grateful to him. ? Margie --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Stephen & Sharon wrote: From: Stephen & Sharon Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 1:48 PM Shalom All, ? I would like to honour the memory of a much maligned man, yet a tsadik in his time - my rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef.? He is reported to have been murdered around this time of year?- an innocent man whose obedience and devotion to God has been the source of my own journey 'out of Egypt'. ? Sharon ? ? ? ? ? ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/3cf98579/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 12 15:06:57 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:06:57 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Teaching on Shemini Message-ID: <974594083-1239566679-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1691126609-@bxe1249.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just a quick reminder that I will be teaching live tonight on Torah reading Shemini. Very stormy weather is threatening, but I am hopeful all goes as planned. Live class begins at 6 Central. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 15:32:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:32:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Very good Passover video Message-ID: <855590370904121332r55581fe3ue7d6beb6000fe389@mail.gmail.com> Shalom L'Kulam, I hope everyone has been enjoying their Pesah so far. Although I think I forwarded this link last year, it's certainly worth seeing again :-) Moadim L'Simcha! * Hanoch* Click here: YouTube - Passover -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/ee0a8bf8/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Apr 12 19:46:49 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:46:49 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] PESACH SEDER WITH A TWIST. In-Reply-To: <49E1EDA8.2010105@westnet.com.au> References: <49E1EDA8.2010105@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904121746k4a4d2963n9f2f808855bde028@mail.gmail.com> Anyone know who led the Seder? On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:33 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > > > > President Obama hosted a traditional Seder dinner in the Old Family >> Dining Room of the White House on Thursday night, April 9, 2009. > > Some friends and White House employees and their families joined the Obama >> family. > > Official White House photo by Pete Souza > > http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/hi_res/seder_hi-res.jpg > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/31c4ad03/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Apr 12 20:29:20 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:29:20 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik In-Reply-To: <644700.63459.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <74FB7DA4572C422696766F33D4CEE0F9@Beeblebrox> <644700.63459.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <845813DE335B4E3E90E0EE371FDF464A@bettylaptop> And mine too. I will always be grateful to him as well. Shalom to all and shavuah tov! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Margie Creech Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 1:59 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik He is the one that started me on my journey too. I will always be grateful to him. Margie --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Stephen & Sharon wrote: From: Stephen & Sharon Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 1:48 PM Shalom All, I would like to honour the memory of a much maligned man, yet a tsadik in his time - my rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef. He is reported to have been murdered around this time of year - an innocent man whose obedience and devotion to God has been the source of my own journey 'out of Egypt'. Sharon _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090412/62b3f00e/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 12 21:24:47 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:24:47 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Shemini Message-ID: <1558096550-1239589349-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1850185397-@bxe1249.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Audio of tonight's class is on the web for those that are interested. Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 03:44:47 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:44:47 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] PESACH MEDITATIONS. Part 1 Message-ID: <49E2FB7F.40105@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/58002724/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 03:52:14 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:52:14 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] PESACH MEDITATIONS. Part 2. Message-ID: <49E2FD3E.5030204@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/be6767f0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jordan3.gif Type: image/gif Size: 59940 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/be6767f0/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jordan4.gif Type: image/gif Size: 22650 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/be6767f0/attachment-0001.gif From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 04:16:51 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:16:51 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] GILGAL. Message-ID: <49E30303.2030705@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/362c4d50/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-12.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24958 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/362c4d50/attachment.jpg From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 04:44:38 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:44:38 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Before the end of Pesah Message-ID: <855590370904130244u30f2d5ffy47bfb7fec149a628@mail.gmail.com> With only today and tomorrow left of Chol HaMoed (the 'intermediate days') Pesah - some thoughts to focus on from Rav Lazer Brody. Moadim L'Simcha, * Hanoch* A look at the sky by Rav Lazer Brody *A Ukrainian Jewish peddler was a pious and congenial individual, until his luck changed and he began making a lot of money. Gradually, he was seen less and less in the local house of study and prayer, but more and more in the marketplace. One day, while on the run to make a deal, he passed by Rebbe Nachman of Breslev's window, just when the Rebbe happened to be looking out. * *"Yossele!", the Rebbe called out to the formerly pious peddler, now nouveau-riche merchant: "When's the last time you took a look at the sky?"* If you haven't had a chance to take a look at the sky lately, maybe you should slow down. Looking at the sky, taking a deep breath of fresh air, and going for a ride with the family out in the country are wonderful for the body, mind, and soul. The intermediate days of Passover are a great time to replenish your spiritual battery. [image: 800trees] *When was the last time you took a good look at the sky?* Monday, 13 April 2009 at 12:01 AM in Chassidic thought | Permalink Sunday, 12 April 2009 Thought focus "One is where one's thoughts are." *Rabbi Yisroel Baal Shem Tov, founder of the Chassidic movement* [image: Shimmering light Coleman] *Original oil painting by James Coleman * Simply speaking, you are where your mind is. If you focus on paradise, that's where you'll be. The choice is completely up to you. Chol HaMoed is a good time to ponder, speak to Hashem, and to put our thoughts in the right place. As soon as we think about Hashem, our minds are in paradise; when we speak to Him, our whole body and soul enter paradise too. Sunday, 12 April 2009 at 12:05 AM in Chassidic thought | Permalink -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/e313a3b3/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 04:46:56 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:46:56 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - SONGS. Message-ID: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/343c7a48/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: piano_keys_bw.jpg Type: image/png Size: 4583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/343c7a48/attachment.png -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 42letternameofgod.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/343c7a48/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: anabek1.gif Type: image/gif Size: 22925 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/343c7a48/attachment-0001.gif From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 06:44:46 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (oneillcody at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 04:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Message-ID: <995148.58340.qm@web37304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm "in line" ?Steve. Cody "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/774f5d1c/attachment.html From dstone34 at cox.net Mon Apr 13 06:54:46 2009 From: dstone34 at cox.net (Diana Stone) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 06:54:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] GILGAL. References: <49E30303.2030705@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Hello Joe, Very interesting... Thanks for passing this on. Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 4:16 AM Subject: [Dialogue] GILGAL. Shalom Chaverim, talking about Yehoshua and the miraculous crossing of the Jordan and Gilgal, this is an email I received from Yaacov, a friend of mine from Israel. You can tell how excited he is. BTW, his wife Zahava and her family are Kahanas. Zahava would be Rabbi Meir Kahana's neice. Hi Joe - Chag Pesach Sameach to you too. Yesterday night we had a lovely "Sedder" with our family. We were only 10 people in our home (usually we are more) but it was very nice. We still have our daughter Shaked and Zahava's mother and sister with us (they are staying with us for 3 days) and we enjoy each other a lot. Thank you for your Email and blessing for the holiday and we wish you two Chag Sameach too. I want to tell you something amazing and fascinating, something new that the archeologists published just three days ago, something that strengthen and prove the Biblical story of the Exodus of the Israeli nation from Egypt. The archeologists found 5 places near the Jordan River, 200 miters long, with a shape of foot steps, made out of stones. These kinds of shapes are unique in the world and the shapes created by a wall of stones around them. If you read the promise of God to Israel in the first Chapter of Joshua: (in free translation) where ever you'll put your foot step, it'll be belong to you (or I'll give it to you) - you can understand the meaning of these sites which were probably altars for God's promises. The archeologists even bring another fact from Egypt to approve their thesis about the foot step: in the grave of Tut Anach Amon, one of the kings (Pharaoh) of ancient Egypt, on his sandals there were the names of all his enemies and their countries because in their believes if you put your foot on them, they'll belong to you, and because the Israelis came from Egypt, they adopted this believe too. After these discoveries, the expression "Alia Laregel" (the pilgrimage) is very clear now. It is not "going by foot" but it's "going to foot" (as it's the exact meaning in Hebrew) "going to altar". I'm exiting about this discovery and I told it yesterday during the "Sedder" .I'm sure you'll enjoy it too. One of the huge, foot-shaped enclosures found in the Jordan Valley area. Photo: Courtesy All the best - Yours - Yaacov. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239488120256&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/0707c232/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 24958 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/0707c232/attachment.jpe From chcashmore at hotmail.com Mon Apr 13 08:39:05 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 23:39:05 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik Message-ID: Also mine - I owe him my life for letting me embark on a renewed journey - for finding you all and discovering precious and wonderful truths as contained in the Torah. 'Thank you.' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/4e839841/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 13 09:38:25 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:38:25 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] PESACH SEDER WITH A TWIST. In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904121746k4a4d2963n9f2f808855bde028@mail.gmail.com> References: <49E1EDA8.2010105@westnet.com.au> <1c8dbb6e0904121746k4a4d2963n9f2f808855bde028@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <041320091438.9954.49E34E6100005BF6000026E222230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Kim, I found this on "The Caucus", a White House blog; Obama Hosts Seder Dinner at White House By Jeff Zeleny Pete Souza/White House President Obama hosted a Passover seder at the White House. Update | 6:50 p.m. President Obama and a collection of guests celebrated Passover Thursday evening with what White House officials believe to be the first Passover Seder dinner hosted by an American president. Mr. Obama is not Jewish, but White House officials say that while traveling through Pennsylvania during the campaign last year, he surprised his aides by joining an impromptu Passover dinner held by campaign workers in a ballroom of a Harrisburg hotel, so he decided to treat the group to a dinner this year in his new surroundings. The Seder, held in the Old Family Dining Room at the White House with several aides and their families, included the traditional Passover dishes, matzo ball soup, brisket and kugel. The White House chefs prepared the meal after consulting family recipes from several Seder participants. While the Obamas hosted the dinner, it was overseen by Eric Lesser, a White House aide who helped organize the Seder in Harrisburg during the campaign last year. He is now a special assistant to Mr. Obama?s adviser David Axelrod. During the presidential campaign, Mr. Obama struggled to address skepticism from Jewish voters, particularly in the Democratic primary race with Hillary Rodham Clinton. But Jewish groups cheered the presidential Seder, and aides said the White House switchboard was flooded by calls from people seeking an invitation.-- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from kim alvarado : -------------- Anyone know who led the Seder? On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 8:33 AM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: President Obama hosted a traditional Seder dinner in the Old Family Dining Room of the White House on Thursday night, April 9, 2009. Some friends and White House employees and their families joined the Obama family. Official White House photo by Pete Souza http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/hi_res/seder_hi-res.jpg _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/e5cdbbf7/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 13 09:39:50 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:39:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] in memory of a tsadik In-Reply-To: <74FB7DA4572C422696766F33D4CEE0F9@Beeblebrox> Message-ID: <041320091439.13428.49E34EB5000D321B0000347422230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Me too Sharon, thanks. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Stephen & Sharon" : -------------- Shalom All, I would like to honour the memory of a much maligned man, yet a tsadik in his time - my rabbi, Yehoshua ben Yosef. He is reported to have been murdered around this time of year - an innocent man whose obedience and devotion to God has been the source of my own journey 'out of Egypt'. Sharon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/359e22d3/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 13 09:41:01 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:41:01 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Poll In-Reply-To: <961695.92777.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <041320091441.18124.49E34EFD00092C8C000046CC22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> That's a good question Susie. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- MSNBC has a current poll going whether the words In God We Trust should remain on our currency. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Susie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/5fa51bce/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 10:13:41 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Poll In-Reply-To: <041320091441.18124.49E34EFD00092C8C000046CC22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <336065.49486.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Remember all the things we have been taught and believed to be a truth to find out later it wasn't. The fact is what G-d did the forefathers wish us to put our trust in? Christians assume it for sure means the G-d of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and will fight tooth and nail to keep it on the currency. The seperation of church and state is usually the reason sighted for keeping it or getting rid of it. I have researched and found that it is very possible that it is a name of an actual trust set up in the name, "In G-d We". Interesting things found on our currency. ? Susie --- On Mon, 4/13/09, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Poll To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, April 13, 2009, 7:41 AM That's a good question Susie. ? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted ? -------------- Original message from susie getskow : -------------- MSNBC has a current poll going whether the words In God We Trust should remain on our currency. Anyone have any thoughts on this? ? Susie _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/32e6f4eb/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 13 11:06:32 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:06:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Hotel Rooms for UIWU Meeting Message-ID: <24B1D5B6-03E7-4370-954D-4C801E59898B@earthlink.net> Even though we have passed our initial deadline I have managed to hold a few rooms for our upcoming UIWU meeting at our special fantastic rate of $99 per night. Given the area we are in, that these are suites, and that there is no extra charge for extra people in the room, this is truly an amazing rate. These will be released on midnight Tuesday, tomorrow night, so if you have not booked yet and plan to come please do so today or tomorrow. If any of you are on the fence in terms of coming I hope this final extension might encourage you to jump on in and join us! James Here is the information in more detail: Hotel Details: We have blocked off a limited number of rooms (one bedroom suites with kitchen) for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights at the special low rate of $99.00 per night. You can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price. If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as well but the three nights are guaranteed. Call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations, tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall, but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations. The Doubletree Guest Suites is located at: 6300 Morrison Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28211 Web site: http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites-Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/d57dae50/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 13 11:17:39 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:17:39 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot] In-Reply-To: <49E1F008.7030205@westnet.com.au> References: <49E1F008.7030205@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Hey Joe, thanks for this world "time clock," and thanks again to you, Steve for sending out the omer count reminder. It looks like you guys in the 'land down under' are 15 hours ahead of us here in TX, that those in the UK are 6 hours ahead and Israel 8 hours ahead, and our Canadian friends are about an hour earlier. That gives me a good perspective. As far as counting the Omer, I concur with you and love the Kabbalistic sefirot method of counting.my particular siddur has a phrase which is also very meaningful.it mentions untying the "bundled sins." It seems that someone wrote and wanted us all to try to synchronize our time so that we could all pray and count at the same time. That would seem a bit difficult in my opinion. I personally see a great benefit in us all counting in our own time zones and joining with all those round the world, each in his own time zone. It reminds me of the picture I have always had in my mind with the kindling of Shabbat Candles, like almost a continuous kindling all over the globe within a 24 hour period.like little sparks emanating up from the globe one after another as the earth spins round on its axis. Hope you and all are having a meaningful time during these intermediate days of Pesach! I love this time of eating matzah and remembering the history of HaShem's people and all those who have joined us.we each have our own bondage, our own Mitzrayim (Egypt) from which we have been delivered.for me and probably most of us, it is ongoing, with new battles everyday.but, blessed be the Name of HaShem, He will see us thru! Shavuah tov and chag samaech! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 8:44 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot] Shalom Steve, thank you for this great reminder for the counting of the omer. The Kabbalistic sefirot or Divine emanations are a wonderful way to prepare ourselves for meeting HaShem by knowing His Divine attributes. For those who are on different time zones. http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/78259db9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 13 12:06:29 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:06:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! In-Reply-To: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> References: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Joe, I find this prayer, Ana Bkoach (We beg you) to be very moving and meaningful, and even more so now that I can hear it put to music, which I love! It is interesting that it is found in the prayers for counting the omer (at least in the Sephardi Artscroll version, p.317). I remembered it because it is right before the Bedtime Shema. I really did not make the full connection until I just now re-read the prayer and listened to the song. This is the prayer that has the reference to untying the "bundled sins" that I just mentioned in my previous email to you regarding the omer count. It is truly amazing to me, how often things come together for some of us at the same time! I just listened to the tune that you gave on your link.it is beautiful. I found another one that I have added below that is lovely and very moving. The portion of the title, "healing the core of the soul," is what caught my attention.as this is what I think I personally need.and might I say, what we all need.to prepare for Shavuot and the day that HaShem will indeed write His words on our hearts! It is beautifully sung with such kavanah.just the voice of a single woman.with no accompaniment.I felt like it reached the core of my soul! Ana Bkoach, Healing the Core of the Soul, Kol Isha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tA66N0ym0 &feature=related Chag Samaech for these remaining days and may we each have a meaningful omer count! Elisheva/Betty _____ . Shalom all my musician Chaverim, Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg The power of the hidden 42-LETTER name of God The Ana BeKoach (Ana BeCoach or Ana B'Koach) prayer was written in the first century by a great kabalistic Rabbi - Rabbi Nehonia. The prayer was written according to the seventy names of God - a term related to Abraham. The Ana BeKoach is composed of seven lines, with six words in each line. The first letter of every word is taken, thereby creating the 42-letter name. The combination of Ana BeKoach is hidden in the first 42 letters of the book of Genesis (From the word BERESHIT to the word VAVOHOO). The letters are translated using a secret kabalistic calculation. The Ana BeKoach prayer can be found in the Shaharit and Mincha prayers, and in the Shabbat prayer before Lecha Dodi. Today, Ana BeKoach is somewhat ignored, and in many prayers it is no longer used. The Ana Becoach prayer is greatly evaluated by spiritual and kabalistic followers that know of the great influence found in this 42-letter combination. Another representation of the Ana Bekoach is the 7 leaf Menorah. King David meditated on this for hours before entering into battle. David's related dream The model was made after David had a dream. As David relates "In the dream, I was in a very dark place. I was tied up and could not move anything. I tried to scream but my voice was gone. It was very frightening. Then the Ana BeKoach prayer rose up in my mind. I started saying it in my thoughts. When I reached the third line everything disappeared and I woke up." The number seven: 7 Sipherot, 7 verses to the Ana Bekoach, 7 days in a week are all represented by the 42 Names of G-d below: Ana Bekoach Prayer 1. Please, with the might of your right, untie the bundle: 2. Accept your people's prayer song, heighten, purify us, Mighty one: 3. Please hero, your uniqueness worshippers, guard them closely: 4. Bless them purify them, your rightfulness mercies, always reward: 5. Immune, proud, with your good will, manage your people: 6. Single, proud, address your people, who remember your holiness: 7. Accept our plead, and hear our cry, he who knows histories: Blessed be his kingdom's honor for ever: Each line relates to the 7 Sepherot of the Tree of Life Each line relates to the Days of the Week starting with Sunday. Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/d3f90a40/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/d3f90a40/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/d3f90a40/attachment.jpe From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 13 12:08:45 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:08:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - SONGS. In-Reply-To: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> References: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5E98789F118A46DCA6F9381B6ECA945F@bettylaptop> Joe, I forgot to tell you in my previous note how much I enjoyed reading your post below. Some of it was a bit above my head, yet it gave me a better understanding as to why music is said to be the "language of the soul" and is the gateway to the heart! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 4:47 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - SONGS. Shalom all my musician Chaverim, The Seven White Keys to Shamayim. by Harav Moshe Wolfson, shlita [Rav of Beis Medrash Emunas Yisroel and Mashgiach of Yeshivah Torah Vodaas] [Adapted from a shiur that was delivered under the auspices of Irgun Shiurai Torah and prepared for publication by Rabbi Yochonon Donn] Wordless Power There are two types of song: one has words (this category would include the art of poetry) in which words are joined together to create a rhythmic pattern and a sense of uniformity. In this type, the feeling of enjoyment and relaxation that comes from hearing music results from the whole song including the words. In the second type of song, the reason for the enjoyment it gives us is more obscure: it comes when notes are put together to create a wordless song. It is not logical that notes thrown together should elicit a sense of enjoyment in people, that wordless tunes can be enjoyed is a gift from Hashem. Sefer Pe'as Hashulchan by Harav Yisrael of Shklov zt'l, cites the Vilna Gaon in saying that most of the secrets of Torah are hidden in the art of music and that without understanding music it is impossible to comprehend the Torah. This knowledge of music was given over to Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai along with the rest of the Torah. The Zohar even says that there is a heichal - an entranceway - in Shamayim that can be opened only with neginah (song). The Zohar relates that David HaMelech approached that entrance only with the neginah of his Sefer Tehillim. Keys to the Heichal The seven major musical notes are called keys. Each of the seven keys opens a different door in Shamayim, and it is only through music that these entryways can be opened. Musicologists do not know why the term "key" is used, but it is quite possible that it is a tradition handed down from Yuval, whom the Torah identifies as the father of music. When the Baal Ha'Tanya came to Shklov, the residents bombarded him with questions. Chabad sources say that he responded with only a niggun, which answered all their questions. As the Vilna Gaon explained, music opens the doors of Torah in Shamayim. A Gemara in Arachin says that the kinor (stringed instrument) in the Beit Hamikdash had seven strings, but in the times of Mashiach it will have eight strings. There are seven major notes on a musical scale, and the seventh note corresponds to Shabbat, for Shabbat completes the kinor, so that even today one can sing. The seven days of the week are actually the seven tunes of Creation. When Shabbat - the seventh tune - arrives, the harp is complete. This is the reason why we usher in the Shabbat with kapitel 29 of Tehillim, which describes the seven kolot - since then we can proceed with song. This is the reason for the minhag among Klal Yisrael of singing zemirot on Shabbat. HaRav Mordechai of Lechovich zt"l reportedly said that he would be able to believe that all the seven seas had dried up, but not that a Jew does not sing zemirot on Shabbat. The reason people so enjoy songs is that the tones that form them have been combined ever since the six days of Creation. Some songs, however, only confuse a person, such as some modern-day songs that are based on, for example, the pounding of a drum, or on words that have no correlation to each other, such as many non-Jewish songs. While they have a tune, it is different than the accepted process of music. This latter type of song leads to immorality, just as the tones of these songs have no relation to each other but are merely thrown together, immorality involves the relations of two people who are not meant for each other. Neither these songs nor illicit unions were predestined from Creation. Seven Keys of Chesed There is a fundamental difference between the seven ushpizin (the holy guests on Succot) and the twelve shvatim - the 12 tribes of Israel. Every Jew has a direct connection with the Ushpizin, whereas each shevet is a separate and unique entity, the shvatim are thus a symbol of disunity. For every seven white keys, representing the major notes on the piano, there are five black keys, representing the minor notes, each of which is a half-tone higher or lower than the white key next to it. The black keys complement and harmonize with the white keys. In general, someone who would play using just the white keys on the piano would be able to play only a lively song, while playing just the black keys would result in a sorrowful song of sadness. It is likely then that another tradition handed down from Yuval is for the keys that play major notes to be white, for happy songs, while the black keys, which play the minor notes, are black, for mournful music. White is a source of chessed (kindness) for Klal Yisrael (this may be one reason doctors wear white), on the Yamim Nora'im we wear white kittels. Black, on the other hand, represents the trait of gevurah (severity) and is a source and an expression of melancholy. A song that is played using a combination of black and white keys mixes chessed and gevurah. Together the seven white keys and five black keys of an octave equal twelve, the number of tribes of Israel, which as mentoned above, can symbolize disunity. Such a song is appropriate only for galus. When Mashiach arrives, however, everything will be white, for there will be no atzvut (sadness). Chazal tell us that when Mashiach comes, an eighth key will be added to music; this key will be a 'roundup' of the previous seven (similar to the all-inclusive kollel used in gematriyot). In Sefer Tehillim (68:7) when David HaMelech relates the events of our redemption from Mitzrayim, he says motzi asirim bakosharot - "(Hashem) releases those who are bound in chains". The Gemara explains that the word "bakosharot" is a combination of bechi and shirot - simultaneous crying and laughter. This is a song played with both the white and black keys. When Moshiach comes, however, there will only be shirah - a joyous song played with the white keys. Some say that this is the new song that will be sung during the Redemption,not dissimilar to the song of Moses sung at the Exodus. The power of the hidden 42-LETTER name of God The Ana BeKoach (Ana BeCoach or Ana B'Koach) prayer was written in the first century by a great kabalistic Rabbi - Rabbi Nehonia. The prayer was written according to the seventy names of God - a term related to Abraham. The Ana BeKoach is composed of seven lines, with six words in each line. The first letter of every word is taken, thereby creating the 42-letter name. The combination of Ana BeKoach is hidden in the first 42 letters of the book of Genesis (From the word BERESHIT to the word VAVOHOO). The letters are translated using a secret kabalistic calculation. The Ana BeKoach prayer can be found in the Shaharit and Mincha prayers, and in the Shabbat prayer before Lecha Dodi. Today, Ana BeKoach is somewhat ignored, and in many prayers it is no longer used. The Ana Becoach prayer is greatly evaluated by spiritual and kabalistic followers that know of the great influence found in this 42-letter combination. Another representation of the Ana Bekoach is the 7 leaf Menorah. King David meditated on this for hours before entering into battle. David's related dream The model was made after David had a dream. As David relates "In the dream, I was in a very dark place. I was tied up and could not move anything. I tried to scream but my voice was gone. It was very frightening. Then the Ana BeKoach prayer rose up in my mind. I started saying it in my thoughts. When I reached the third line everything disappeared and I woke up." The number seven: 7 Sipherot, 7 verses to the Ana Bekoach, 7 days in a week are all represented by the 42 Names of G-d below: Ana Bekoach Prayer 1. Please, with the might of your right, untie the bundle: 2. Accept your people's prayer song, heighten, purify us, Mighty one: 3. Please hero, your uniqueness worshippers, guard them closely: 4. Bless them purify them, your rightfulness mercies, always reward: 5. Immune, proud, with your good will, manage your people: 6. Single, proud, address your people, who remember your holiness: 7. Accept our plead, and hear our cry, he who knows histories: Blessed be his kingdom's honor for ever: Each line relates to the 7 Sepherot of the Tree of Life Each line relates to the Days of the Week starting with Sunday. Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f23fdde3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 8835 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f23fdde3/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f23fdde3/attachment-0001.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f23fdde3/attachment.jpe From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 13 12:45:28 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:45:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz In-Reply-To: <0c3201c9ba1e$0b500ab0$21f02010$@com> References: <5B9A0419-D8DF-49C5-A4F7-C2496AAC45D1@earthlink.net> <0c3201c9ba1e$0b500ab0$21f02010$@com> Message-ID: <57699B2AB6314D0F974684F4BAA89B49@bettylaptop> James, a bit late, but wanted to say that each time I read about David and all his accomplishments and see his photos, I am once again amazed. He was a remarkable man in so many ways, so dedicated to HaShem and to UIWU and the return and reunification of the Judah and Joseph. One of my favorite pictures is the one where he is proudly holding his special candlestick in his hand and telling me all about it. I keep it here in my study on my library shelf so that I can have it close by. I would say that I look at it practically every day, and it is a wonderful inspiration to me. David was indeed a man before his time, and he is dearly missed...I am sure much more so by you as the two of you were so very close. And yes, Patty, you would have loved him too! Love to you, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 3:51 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz Thanks, James, I really wish that I could have met him in person. I think we would have had a lot in common. Shabbat Shalom, Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 10:29 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Remembering David Horowitz David Horowitz, founder of United Israel World Union, was born 106 years ago today. He was born in Malm?, Sweden on April 9, 1903, 106 years ago today. He died October 22, 2002 at age 99. Many of you had the pleasure of knowing him, or at least meeting him. I think of him every day and miss him terribly. Just as a remembrance I have attached a nice Bio of his life for those who have not seen it. It has some great photos. Chag Sameach, James _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 14:15:40 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:15:40 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach's Seudah - Last Day of Pesach Message-ID: <49E38F5C.2040606@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/0bf71dd8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: note.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/0bf71dd8/attachment.gif From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 14:22:32 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:22:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] ITALIAN QUAKE. Message-ID: <49E390F8.4080606@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/12aca098/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: italy2.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/12aca098/attachment.jpg From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 14:55:34 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:55:34 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King Message-ID: <49E398B6.1080800@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/4c97d24b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 13 16:06:52 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:06:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] ITALIAN QUAKE. In-Reply-To: <49E390F8.4080606@westnet.com.au> References: <49E390F8.4080606@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <498DC2A50C7B41D9B423A5597F17FB48@bettylaptop> Thank you, Joe for sharing this wonderful story with us. I had heard of the earthquake in Italy, but not of the Jews coming to their aid. Amidst all the other not so good stories circulating the globe today, this is a heartwarming story indeed. Shalom! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 2:23 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] ITALIAN QUAKE. Italy : Jews rush to aid quake-hit towns that sheltered them during World War II Emma Di Segni, left, reacts as Italia Tagliacozzo talks on the phone with earthquake survivors Luisa e Giovanni Sarra, whose family sheltered their families during World War II, in the Casentino tent-camp, near L'Aquila, central Italy, Monday, April 13, 2009. Italian Jews and Holocaust survivors are rushing to aid communities that sheltered them during World War II and were hit by last week's devastating earthquake. (AP Photo/Sandro Perozzi) (SANDRO PEROZZI, AP / April 13, 2009) FOSSA, Italy - Italian Jews and Holocaust survivors are rushing to aid communities that sheltered them during World War II and were hit by last week's devastating earthquake.A delegation of some 20 elderly survivors and their descendants, as well as Jewish community leaders, roamed the shattered countryside of central Italy on Monday, looking for their one-time saviors, now living in tent camps.They offered everything from gym shoes to summer camps for children."I wouldn't be here if it weren't for these people," said Alberto Di Consiglio, whose parents were sheltered in the small hamlet of Fossa during the war. "We have to help them." More than 100 tent cities have been built around L'Aquila and the 26 towns and villages affected by the 6.3-magnitude quake, which struck central Italy on April 6. The temblor killed 294 people and displaced another 55,000.In the chaos of the relief efforts, Jews who had been sheltered in the area during the war lost touch with their one-time saviors, many of whom are simple farmers with no cell phones. At least five Jewish families, including around 30 people, took shelter in the small mountainside hamlets of Fossa and Casentino between mid-1943 until the arrival of the Allies a year later, survivors said. In one tent, Di Consiglio managed to find Nello De Bernardinis, 74, the son of the couple who sheltered Di Consiglio's father and eight other relatives during the war."It was a great emotion, it's so painful that such righteous people should suffer like this and live in a tent," Di Consiglio said. De Bernardinis said he was fine for the moment and greatly appreciated the gesture of the Jewish community to check in on him and his family. He said, though, that it would be useful to have help during harvest time, and Di Consiglio promised his whole family would come. Riccardo Pacifici, the head of Rome's Jewish community, said he was working to get recognition from Jerusalem's Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial for people like De Bernardinis and others who sheltered Roman Jews. The memorial bestows a special honor on those who saved Jews during World War II. Irena Steinfeldt, director of the Righteous Among the Nations department at Yad Vashem, said the museum was not familiar with the stories of Fossa and Casentino. She urged the Jewish families to come forward so the people who saved them could be recognized."We have not heard these stories, and we want to hear these stories," Steinfeldt said. "There are still people who haven't approached us and haven't spoken, and I would be happy if the families contacted Yad Vashem and told us," she said. Other stories of Jews being saved in the same area were recorded, she said, usually involving Jews who fled from Rome to nearby villages. In one town, Tagliacozzo Alto, a priest named Don Gaetano Tantalo took in the Orvieto family in the spring of 1944, even preparing a traditional Passover meal for them, she said. He was recognized by Yad Vashem in 1978. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-eu-italy-quake-jews,0, 2135538.story -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f5c9f353/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 32840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/f5c9f353/attachment.jpe From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 16:26:20 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 07:26:20 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YETZIAT MITZRAYIM. Message-ID: <49E3ADFC.1000906@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/8d07ce11/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Apr 13 16:47:33 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:47:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King In-Reply-To: <49E398B6.1080800@westnet.com.au> References: <49E398B6.1080800@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <00dd01c9bc81$76283780$6278a680$@com> Shalom Joe, As I have read in Isaiah, YHWH is going to be King: 43:15 I am YHWH, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 3:56 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King Mashiach : The Teacher and The King "The spirit of G-d shall rest upon him.He will be permeated with the spirit of the fear of G-d.The wolf will dwell with the lamb." (Isaiah 11:2) In this passage from the Haftarah for the Eighth Day of Passover outside of Israel, the prophet describes the coming of Mashiach who will arrive and redeem us speedily in our days, highlighting several aspects of the King Mashiach's qualities and his conduct. At the outset, it describes the spiritual level of Mashiach himself: "And the spirit of G-d shall rest upon him." And then it continues to describe his conduct: "And he will be permeated with the spirit of the fear of G-d." Our Sages interpret (Sanhedrin 93b) this phrase to mean that he will judge the righteous through his sense of smell. Afterwards, the verse continues: "And a wolf shall dwell with a lamb.," indicating that Mashiach's conduct will bring about (1) the revelation of G-dliness throughout the world, not only among humans, but also among animals (2) and within the sphere of inanimate objects, (3) as the passage continues, "and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d" (Isaiah 11:9). Even the physical earth will be "filled with the knowledge of G-d." But seeing that "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d," why will it be necessary to have a king in that age? [Seemingly, the purpose of a king is to enforce law and order; since all existence will be permeated with the knowledge of G-d, it would appear that such enforcement will not be necessary.] In short, the explanation of the concept is that kingship is identified with the quality of exaltedness, the concept that a king is separate and uplifted above his people. Even the commands given by a king reflect closeness; the king draws closer to his people by leading them according to his desires. His subjects' obedience to the king's commands does not come because they know and appreciate the reason for the commands, but rather out of fear and dread for the king, as our Sages say, (Sanhedrin 22a) "His dread must be upon you." Thus even the goodness the king gives to his people reflects that he is exalted and separate. This reflects the difference between the influence given by a teacher and that given by a king. When a teacher influences a student, he draws closer to him, for he restricts his own understanding to a level appropriate for the student so that the student will grasp the idea. The influence of a king, by contrast, remains separate from the people, above their intellectual comprehension; this is because a king communicates his wishes as decrees, to be accepted out of awe of him - and not because the people understand.) The source for these two types of influence which Mashiach will provide, that of a king and that of a teacher, is in the Torah (4), for the Torah contains parallels to both of these influences. There are certain Torah concepts that have been enclothed in an intellectual form, paralleling the influence of a teacher. The essence of the Torah, however, remains above intellect, paralleling the influence of a king. In the Era of the Redemption, both of these dimensions will become manifest, and thus Mashiach will be called both a teacher and a king. Mashiach will teach the Torah to the entire Jewish people and convey a fine discerning and knowledgeable appreciation of the Torah's mystic secrets. Because of this influence, Mashiach will be considered as a teacher. And yet, Mashiach himself will comprehend infinitely more than he will communicate through intellect. This dimension of his being he will also convey to the people, but he will do so in an encompassing manner, as a king conveys influence. [The word "encompassing", makif in Hebrew, refers to a light or form of influence that is too powerful to be grasped and internalized and therefore is described as "encompassing." The point is, however, that this encompassing influence is not entirely transcendent. Instead, although it is too powerful to be internalized, it does influence the person.] Moreover, as is well known, Mashiach will teach people the Torah using the medium of sight, a manner of instruction that transcends ordinary comprehension. Nevertheless, the influence which he will convey as a king is so lofty that it cannot even be revealed through the transcendent influence of sight. And yet, because Mashiach will also serve as a king, he will reveal even these matters to the Jewish people. Their revelation, however, will be in an encompassing matter. [Excerpted from Sefer HaMa'amarim Melukat II pp 45-46 by the Lubavitcher Rebbes translated by Rabbi Eliyahu Touger in "Anticipating the Redemption" Vol. II (S.I.E.] Footnotes: (1) Note also that the Rambam (Mishna Torah, Hilchot Melachim 11:4) when speaking of Mashiach "perfecting) the world" refers to mankind [as indicated by the proof text he chooses: "I will transform the nations."] The Rambam also interprets [ibid. 12:1]: "A wolf will dwell with a lamb," as an allegory referring to mankind. (2) Although the Rambam maintains that this verse should be interpreted as an allegory, the sages of Kabbala and Chasidut rule that the verses should be interpreted according to their simple meaning. (3) Note the verse, "A stone from the wall will call out" (Habakkuk 2:11), Midrash Tehillim (ch. 73) states that in the Era of the Redemption even inanimate objects will be permeated by G-dly energy. (4) The same is true with regard to all entities that exist, for they are all a reflection - after numerous intermediate levels - from concepts that exist in the Torah, as implied by the statement "(G-d) looked in the Torah and created the world. (Zohar, Vol. II, p. 161a, b) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/3f7ed9d9/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 17:28:53 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:28:53 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King] Message-ID: <49E3BCA5.9070103@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/4aee4564/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Patty " Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:47:33 -0400 Size: 26098 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/4aee4564/attachment.eml From gets52000 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 18:25:19 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <488494.45083.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I am confused. What day of the count are we on today? Was day one last Thursday, Friday or Sunday? Susie --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:53 PM Thank you, Steve, for providing us with this reminder regarding counting the Omer.? I too think it is important that we count, being mindful that as we count each day after nightfall that we are one day closer to Shavuot.? I agree with you, Kim, regarding the importance of praying with one another and preparing our hearts to ?meet HaShem? and re-dedicate ourselves in whatever ways we need to, at Shavuot, when we metaphorically can stand shoulder to shoulder with one another at the foot of the Mountain and receive the Ten Words into our hearts. ? And whether we agree or not on exactly when to begin or end is probably not that important in the whole scheme of things.? We can always find a point of disagreement if we look hard enough, but in the midst of disagreement, we can sometimes loose our focus as to what is really important. ? I too highly recommend Rabbi Jacobson?s daily ?Omer Meditations,? as they are all about the attitbutes/characteristics of HaShem, and give us practical ways to incorporate them into our daily thinking and carry them out in our lives?See example below that I cut and pasted from Steve?s original email. ? Shavuah tov, ? ?Elisheva/Betty ? Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 10:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot ? Steve and all, ? I'm "in line". ?I remember the "Omer mediations" from MLC from last year. ?I highly recommend them. ? ? Even for those of you who are counting differently you can still use them on the day that you believe is correct. ?The important thing is that we are praying together. We most likely will not agree on the count, but I believe we all agree on the why we count...to prepare our hearts to meet HaShem to be open to His Teaching and His Guidance. ? ? Kim ? ? On Fri, Apr 10, 20 09 at 2:09 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: Gang, Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy Day.? Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is going to do.? In any case, I recommend that you all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations.? However, it is enough to know that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day.? There is? Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. repentance is always in order.? Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai.?? We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are being called out of our settings.?? Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel."? My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been doing, whatever that may have been.?? True, we are on diverse paths homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that.? We need to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. The reason I am saying this is because? we all have resisted the religious leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry Bones .? We have a task.?? May I suggest that we have a discussion about this.? Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, so that "the order" can be verified."? That will take care of our "resistance" to human leadership? within out movement. It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us.? However WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. Well, who is falling in line? Steve Ps: Sorry for the chopped up? message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: ? ? Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ?HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. ? Please visit this link to update your preferences. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ?_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/528a641e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 13 18:27:35 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:27:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot In-Reply-To: <488494.45083.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <488494.45083.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chabad counts tonight as 5. From: susie getskow Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 7:25 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot I am confused. What day of the count are we on today? Was day one last Thursday, Friday or Sunday? Susie --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Betty Givin wrote: From: Betty Givin Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:53 PM Thank you, Steve, for providing us with this reminder regarding counting the Omer. I too think it is important that we count, being mindful that as we count each day after nightfall that we are one day closer to Shavuot. I agree with you, Kim, regarding the importance of praying with one another and preparing our hearts to ?meet HaShem? and re-dedicate ourselves in whatever ways we need to, at Shavuot, when we metaphorically can stand shoulder to shoulder with one another at the foot of the Mountain and receive the Ten Words into our hearts. And whether we agree or not on exactly when to begin or end is probably not that important in the whole scheme of things. We can always find a point of disagreement if we look hard enough, but in the midst of disagreement, we can sometimes loose our focus as to what is really important. I too highly recommend Rabbi Jacobson?s daily ?Omer Meditations,? as they are all about the attitbutes/characteristics of HaShem, and give us practical ways to incorporate them into our daily thinking and carry them out in our lives?See example below that I cut and pasted from Steve?s original email. Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness Love is the single most powerful and necessary component in life. It is both giving and receiving. Love allows us to reach above and beyond ourselves, to experience another person and to allow that person to experience us. It is the tool by which we learn to experience the highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity to love another person? Do I have problems with giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult for me to let someone else into my life? Am I afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness Healthy love must always include an element of discipline and discernment; a degree of distance and respect for another's boundaries; an assessment of another's capacity to contain your love. Love must be tempered and directed properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. Exercise for the day: Help someone on their terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their specific needs even if it takes effort. Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness Harmony in love is one that blends both the chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized love includes empathy and compassion. Love is often given with the expectation of receiving love in return. Compassionate love is given freely; expects nothing in return - even when the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is giving also to those who have hurt you. Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ?Copyright The Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights reserved. www.meaningfullife.com To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 10:34 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot Steve and all, I'm "in line". I remember the "Omer mediations" from MLC from last year. I highly recommend them. Even for those of you who are counting differently you can still use them on the day that you believe is correct. The important thing is that we are praying together. We most likely will not agree on the count, but I believe we all agree on the why we count...to prepare our hearts to meet HaShem to be open to His Teaching and His Guidance. Kim On Fri, Apr 10, 20 09 at 2:09 AM, Steve Mathe wrote: Gang, Here is a neat service to remind us daily to count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we should do in order to anticipate and get ready for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy Day. Personally, am expecting one of these Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is going to do. In any case, I recommend that you all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but for a reminder. You do not have to do the specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic meditations. However, it is enough to know that we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by day. There is Divinely set reason for that. Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. repentance is always in order. Israel had to prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai. We as a group need to be task oriented, for that is why we are being called out of our settings. Amos tells us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel." My hunch is that we cannot just do what we have always been doing, whatever that may have been. True, we are on diverse paths homeward, however we have a task and we need to be mindful of that. We need to gear up, and we need some Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. The reason I am saying this is because we all have resisted the religious leadership of our settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. However, God has a few things to tells us, that is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry Bones . We have a task. May I suggest that we have a discussion about this. Most importantly, I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, so that "the order" can be verified." That will take care of our "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd and He will lead us. However WE NEED TO LISTEN and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on this list, if you identify with this message and imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. Well, who is falling in line? Steve Ps: Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. Subscribe to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to refine our lives and elevate our souls. The spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 different attributes, each one corresponding to one day in this 49-day period, which begins this coming Thursday night, April 9th. Click here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder (see sample below). Every morning you will receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and its corresponding emotional attribute, with a short insight and an exercise for each day -- excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: A Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. Already subscribed? Subscribe your friends and associates (or forward them this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. Here is a sample of this year's first installment: Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. Click here to order the book. For more information on this fascinating 49 day journey click here. To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please click here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ HOW TO COUNT THE OMER The Omer is counted at night, while standing, immediately following the evening prayer. You begin with the following blessing: Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the Universe, who has sanctified us with His commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. Following this blessing you count the specific day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to its place, speedily in our days; Amen. For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon us forever; that Your way be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. The nations will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will extol You, for the earth will have yielded its produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d will bless us; and all, from the farthest corners of the earth, shall fear Him. We implore you, by the great power of Your right hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the glory of His kingdom forever and ever. Master of the universe, You have commanded us through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be for seven full weeks. Until the day following the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so that the souls of Your people Israel may be cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I may be purified and sanctified with supernal holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. Please visit this link to update your preferences. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/b5b45daa/attachment.html From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Mon Apr 13 18:58:13 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 09:58:13 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] re-dont forget to count the omer Message-ID: Shalom Betty, It was me who suggested we pray together at the same time. I was not speaking of counting the omer at the same time as I know we are all in different time zones. I was speaking of praying for understanding of when YeHoWaH's days are to be kept. Some think it is not important when we keep them so long as we keep them. I disagree with this. YeHoWaH gave us specific times and dates to keep His holy days, for us to keep them on the days we see fit and not seek YeHoWaH's instructions and obey them is idolatry. This is what the Northern kingdom did. They changed the days to suit themselves and they went into idolatry. They were cast out of the land because of their idolatry. Some say we should follow the teaching of the Rabbis. My understanding of the Tanakh does not seem to fit what the Rabbi's teach so I personally can not accept this teaching. If we are not keeping the new moons and Sabbaths in accordance with the commands of YeHoWaH, we are not pleasing Him. Isaiah 1:12-20 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations - I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith YeHoWaH; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of YeHoWaH hath spoken. Much of our understanding is corrupted by what we have been taught by men and in the false religions we have come out of. We need to look to the Tanakh for answers and pray that YeHoWaH will reveal His truth to us so that we can keep His Holy days as He has commanded them to be kept. This is my understanding of what we must do. I guess that those on this list won't agree. In that case I will just have to disagree with you all. May YeHoWaH be with us and give us a heart to seek His truth and obey Him as He has commanded us. Shalom, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/31cebbfb/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 13 19:22:56 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:22:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] P. S. Hotel Rooms for UIWU Meeting Message-ID: Just a little P.S. on the UIWU meeting. I truly think this is going to be the best annual meeting we have ever had, from the quality of the program to the opportunities we will have, one with another, to talk, visit, and communicate. I can't tell you how excited I am about the program. I know I am practically bursting over it all and I know Ross is as well. I want to encourage any of you who are "on the fence" to jump off on the side of coming, be daring, and show up. I am hearing from just about everyone who is coming that it was a real challenge for them to be able to work it all out, but they are somehow doing it. So hey, I say, break a leg! Also, I hope all of you noticed that I am making a big secret announcement on Sunday night--this is no gimmick. I just want to share "live and face to face" with all of you some major news that I know everyone will find quite exciting. For those of you who absolutely, positively, can not come we are talking about not only recording but maybe even live internet broadcast. Brian and Dave are working on this. We will see. I don't want this to deter anyone from coming, but I thought it was only right to let some of you--especially in Australia, the UK, and such like--to know that we have not forgotten you, even if North Carolina is thousands of miles away. On the other hand, so far as the big surprise, I won't be able to put that out over the internet...sorry. Hey, just trying to tantalize a bit here! Anyway, I hope everyone gives this some final thought between now and tomorrow night midnight...see below on room deadlines. Warmest best, James +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Even though we have passed our initial deadline I have managed to hold a few rooms for our upcoming UIWU meeting at our special fantastic rate of $99 per night. Given the area we are in, that these are suites, and that there is no extra charge for extra people in the room, this is truly an amazing rate. These will be released on midnight Tuesday, tomorrow night, so if you have not booked yet and plan to come please do so today or tomorrow. If any of you are on the fence in terms of coming I hope this final extension might encourage you to jump on in and join us! James Here is the information in more detail: Hotel Details: We have blocked off a limited number of rooms (one bedroom suites with kitchen) for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights at the special low rate of $99.00 per night. You can get single, double, triple, or quad all at the same low price. If you want Thursday night before, or Monday night after you can ask the booking person and perhaps be able to work out the same rate as well but the three nights are guaranteed. Call the Doubletree at 704-364-2400, ask for reservations, tell them you are with the group "United Israel." Be sure you get this special rate. Our agent, if you have any problems, is Cameron Hall, but you don't need to speak to her to make reservations. The Doubletree Guest Suites is located at: 6300 Morrison Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28211 Web site: http://doubletree1.hilton.com/en_US/dt/hotel/CLTDTDT-Doubletree-Guest-Suites-Charlotte-SouthPark-North-Carolina/index.do -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/ff7f9554/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Apr 13 20:05:32 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:05:32 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King] In-Reply-To: <49E3BCA5.9070103@westnet.com.au> References: <49E3BCA5.9070103@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <011401c9bc9d$1de739b0$59b5ad10$@com> Thanks for the clarification, Joe, and I am SO glad to hear your last statement!! Love & Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 6:29 PM To: DIAlogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King] Shalom Patty, of course, but YHVH is not going to be King..... YHVH IS KING. This is not what the article is referring to. The article is referring to the Davidic Covenant. ? ???????? ????-?????? ?????????? ???????, ???? ????? ?????? ????????, ????? ???????????? ???-????????, ??????? ???????--???????? ??????, ???-?????? ???-??????????. 8 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto My servant David: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be prince over My people, over Israel. ? ????????? ???????, ?????? ?????? ?????????, ??????????? ???-????-?????????, ??????????; ?????????? ???? ???? ???????, ??????? ??????????? ?????? ????????. 9 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou didst go, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee; and I will make thee a great name, like unto the name of the great ones that are in the earth. ? ??????????? ?????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????????, ???????? ??????????, ????? ????????, ????; ?????-???????? ?????-??????? ???????????, ????????? ?????????????. 10 And I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in their own place, and be disquieted no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as at the first, ?? ???????-???????, ?????? ????????? ????????? ???-?????? ??????????, ???????????? ????, ??????-?????????; ????????? ???? ??????, ????-????? ????????-????? ??????. 11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will cause thee to rest from all thine enemies. Moreover the LORD telleth thee that the LORD will make thee a house. ?? ???? ????????? ???????, ???????????? ???-?????????, ???????????? ???-???????? ?????????, ?????? ????? ??????????; ????????????, ???-????????????. 12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom. ?? ???? ???????-??????, ????????; ???????????? ???-??????? ????????????, ???-??????. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. ?? ????? ???????-???? ?????, ?????? ???????-???? ?????--??????, ?????????????, ????????????? ????????? ?????????, ??????????? ?????? ?????. 14 I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son; if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men; ?? ??????????, ???-?????? ?????????, ????????? ????????? ????? ???????, ?????? ????????? ????????????. 15 but My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. ?? ????????? ???????? ??????????????? ???-??????, ?????????: ?????????, ??????? ?????? ???-??????. 16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee; thy throne shall be established for ever.' ?? ?????? ??????????? ????????, ??????? ??????????? ??????--???? ??????? ?????, ???-??????. {?} 17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David. {P} 2 SAM 7 : 8-17 To even infer or suggest that Mashiach is YHVH would be anathema to the Rabbis. He is the prince / king / servant/ sh'liach / teacher of YHVH's Kingdom on earth. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/0d26423d/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Mon Apr 13 20:32:04 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] grafted in Message-ID: <270425.82657.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a question. The Christian thought, as I understand it is that they, the Christians, are grafted in. Another concept is that they are adopted. What are they grafted into and who adopted them? If it is Israel, does it mean that they are now part of Israel? I What I mean is whatever was given to Israel wouldn't they be obligated to follow the same? When they say, all that is done away with, aren't they a part of Israel? How can they throw away what they are grafted into? I'm confused. Would someone like to explain this to me? Betty Eddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090413/2ffb6c12/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 13 21:09:09 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 12:09:09 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] grafted in] Message-ID: <49E3F045.8060009@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/0642d3a2/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Betty Eddy Subject: [Dialogue] grafted in Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Size: 6920 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/0642d3a2/attachment.eml From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Tue Apr 14 03:39:25 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:39:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: some counting-the-Omer ruminations In-Reply-To: <488494.45083.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <488494.45083.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200904140840.n3E8efVV027366@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Susie and All, One place to find out what day it is to count is on the Chabad site: http://www.chabad.org/holidays/sefirah/omer-count.htm . This mode of counting is according to the interpretation that the counting is to start on the day after the first day of Pesach, / Unleavened Bread, on Thursday night, April 9th, Nisan 16th. Here, the "day of rest" " is thought to be the first day of Pesach, a "High Day." Others interpret "the day of rest" as the Shabbat within the Days of Unleavened Bread, April 11th, and are counting to start on that Sunday after it, April 12th, at daytime around 8:30-9:00 AM since that is when the wave sheaf / omer was offered. Am sure that there are other interpretations as well and also that we are not going to agree on what the "proper" method is. We are all traveling different paths, yet in the same direction. What we as returnees from the dark prison-houses that we have been in for 2700 years, need more than anything else are two processes: 1) be cleansed, (just think, we have been in the graves of the Valley of Dry Bones..... buried with our idols..... ) 2) to be guided by the holy Spirit of His presence........ (Ez. 37 has a few things to say about that..... ) A few lines from two versions of the traditional Jewish prayer for counting the Omer express this process so well: "We implore you, by the great power of Your right arm, release the captive," ..... This is certainly applicable to all of us, regardless of when or where we were called. "Untie the bundled sins"..... we all fall into this pile, since difficult sins can be understood as are "bundled" in the unconscious of all of us individually. Surely, our sins are bundled in the collective unconscious of Israel in general and Ephraim in particular, for "Ephraim is enjoined / weeded to his idols, leave him alone." --(Hos. 4:17). All this has to be cleansed. Though we can do some part of this process, a lot of it has to be done by G-d for us, for we do not know just to what extent we have been contaminated for the last 2700 years. (Isa. 42:22). That is why in this prayer we address G-d as "Knower of Mysteries,"..... "Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults." -- (Psalm 19:12) That is why the words of this traditional prayer fit us so well.... and we can use them as platforms from which we can take off in our own, "repentance" prayers for 49 days, e.g. "Guide us bless us and purify us show us pity... "Accept the prayer of Your people; strengthen us, purify us, from our encrustations of evil and uncleanness, defilement and contamination,"...... and we do need strengthening for we are pitifully weak.... "May your abundant Goodness rectify our nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us with Your supernal holiness. He does command us:"be ye holy for I am holy".... "May your abundant Goodness guide your congregation,"... the above line certainly pertains to all of Israel, (klal Isarel) as well as the Ten Tribes movement, and the groups within that we may belong to... e.g. this list..... As You have written in Your Torah, "You shall count for yourselves from the day following the day of rest, from the day on which you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; [the counting] shall be for seven full weeks. This points to the principle that this "counting" is to be a very personal one, where each individual is preparing to arrive on the 50th day,.... to a meeting with the G-d of Israel at Mt. Sinai. We are on our ways to Mt. Sinai again.... (Jer. 31;31. We need His Guidance and revelation desperately.... Yes, "desperately,".... let us do the PRAYERFUL AND MEDITATIVE counting with with at least these foci.... and with great expectations... Steve At 04:25 PM 4/13/2009, you wrote: >I am confused. What day of the count are we on >today? Was day one last Thursday, Friday or Sunday? >Susie > >--- On Sat, 4/11/09, Betty Givin wrote: >From: Betty Givin >Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 9:53 PM > >Thank you, Steve, for providing us with this >reminder regarding counting the Omer. I too >think it is important that we count, being >mindful that as we count each day after >nightfall that we are one day closer to >Shavuot. I agree with you, Kim, regarding the >importance of praying with one another and >preparing our hearts to ???meet HaShem??? and >re-dedicate ourselves in whatever ways we need >to, at Shavuot, when we metaphorically can stand >shoulder to shoulder with one another at the >foot of the Mountain and receive the Ten Words into our hearts. > > > >And whether we agree or not on exactly when to >begin or end is probably not that important in >the whole scheme of things. We can always find >a point of disagreement if we look hard enough, >but in the midst of disagreement, we can >sometimes loose our focus as to what is really important. > > > >I too highly recommend Rabbi Jacobson???s daily >???Omer Meditations,??? as they are all about >the attitbutes/characteristics of HaShem, and >give us practical ways to incorporate them into >our daily thinking and carry them out in our >lives See example below that I cut and pasted from Steve????s original email. > > > >Shavuah tov, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > >Day 1 - Chesed of Chesed: Lovingkindness in Lovingkindness >Love is the single most powerful and necessary >component in life. It is both giving and >receiving. Love allows us to reach above and >beyond ourselves, to experience another person >and to allow that person to experience us. It is >the tool by which we learn to experience the >highest reality - God. Examine the love aspect >of your love. Ask yourself: What is my capacity >to love another person? Do I have problems with >giving? Am I stingy or selfish? Is it difficult >for me to let someone else into my life? Am I >afraid of my vulnerability, of opening up and getting hurt? > >Exercise for the day: Find a new way to express your love to a dear one. > >Day 2 - Gevurah of Chesed: Discipline in Lovingkindness > >Healthy love must always include an element of >discipline and discernment; a degree of distance >and respect for another's boundaries; an >assessment of another's capacity to contain your >love. Love must be tempered and directed >properly. Ask a parent who, in the name of love, >has spoiled a child; or someone who suffocates a >spouse with love and doesn't allow them any personal space. > >Exercise for the day: Help someone on their >terms not on yours. Apply yourself to their >specific needs even if it takes effort. > >Day 3 - Tiferet of Chesed: Compassion, Harmony in Lovingkindness > >Harmony in love is one that blends both the >chesed and gevurah aspects of love. Harmonized >love includes empathy and compassion. Love is >often given with the expectation of receiving >love in return. Compassionate love is given >freely; expects nothing in return - even when >the other doesn't deserve love. Tiferet is >giving also to those who have hurt you. > >Exercise for the day: Offer a helping hand to a stranger. > >Excerpt from The Spiritual Guide to Counting the >Omer, by Simon Jacobson. ??Copyright The >Meaningful Life Center, 2007. All rights >reserved. www.meaningfullife.com > >To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please >click here. > >---------- >From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >[mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado >Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 10:34 PM >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Don't forget to Count the Omer Count till Shavuot > > > >Steve and all, > > > >I'm "in line". I remember the "Omer mediations" >from MLC from last year. I highly recommend them. > > > >Even for those of you who are counting >differently you can still use them on the day >that you believe is correct. The important >thing is that we are praying together. We most >likely will not agree on the count, but I >believe we all agree on the why we count...to >prepare our hearts to meet HaShem to be open to >His Teaching and His Guidance. > > > >Kim > > > > > >On Fri, Apr 10, 20 > >09 at 2:09 AM, Steve Mathe ><eliasaph at uniteourheart.com> wrote: > >Gang, > >Here is a neat service to remind us daily to >count the Omer count till Shavuot, and to do the >daily meditations, comtemplations and prayers we >should do in order to anticipate and get ready >for the Feast of Weeks, Shavuot Holy >Day. Personally, am expecting one of these >Shavuots, something spectacular that G-d is >going to do. In any case, I recommend that you >all subscribe to this, if for nothing else but >for a reminder. You do not have to do the >specific meditations R. Jacobson recommends. Not >everyone is into the nitty-gritty kabbalistic >meditations. However, it is enough to know that >we are to purposefully COUNT this period day by >day. There is Divinely set reason for that. >Obviously, getting spiritually ready, i.e. >repentance is always in order. Israel had to >prepare to meet G-d at Mt Sinai. We as a group >need to be task oriented, for that is why we are >being called out of our settings. Amos tells >us, "prepare to meet thy G-d, O Israel." My >hunch is that we cannot just do what we have >always been doing, whatever that may have >been. True, we are on diverse paths homeward, >however we have a task and we need to be mindful >of that. We need to gear up, and we need some >Divinely sent "orders" to come down to us as to what we need to do. > >The reason I am saying this is because we all >have resisted the religious leadership of our >settings, and we are not about to listen to anyone telling us what to do. > >However, God has a few things to tells us, that >is why He has called us out of the valley of Dry >Bones . We have a task. May I suggest that we >have a discussion about this. Most importantly, >I ask all on this group to ask G-d NOW what we >need to do "to prepare" during this upcoming 50 >day period for Shavout 2009 / 5769. I expect the >Divinely sent answer to come to several of us, >so that "the order" can be verified." That will >take care of our "resistance" to human leadership within out movement. > >It is true that God is our Guide and Shepherd >and He will lead us. However WE NEED TO LISTEN >and tune in our ears to do so. Am asking all on >this list, if you identify with this message and >imperative, that please say so, and put it out on this list. > >Well, who is falling in line? > > >Steve > >Ps: >Sorry for the chopped up message, but I cannot forward it as I received it. > >Subscribe >to the Daily Omer Reminder - FREE > >The 7 week period between Passover and Shavuot >is a powerful span of time, which empowers us to >refine our lives and elevate our souls. The >spectrum of human emotions divide into 49 >different attributes, each one corresponding to >one day in this 49-day period, which begins this >coming Thursday night, April 9th. > >Click >here to subscribe to our daily e-mail reminder >(see sample below). Every morning you will >receive in your inbox the evening Omer count and >its corresponding emotional attribute, with a >short insight and an exercise for each day -- >excerpted from Simon Jacobson's classic: >A >Spiritual Guide to the Counting of the Omer, >Forty-Nine Steps to Personal Refinement. > >Already subscribed? >Subscribe >your friends and associates (or forward them >this e-mail) -- and give them a gift they will forever appreciate. > >Here is a sample of this year's first installment: > > > > >Thursday night, April 9, we count one day of the Omer. >Friday night, April 10, we count two days of the Omer. >Saturday night, April 11, we count three days of the Omer. > >Click >here to order the book. For more information on >this fascinating 49 day journey >click here. > >To subscribe to this daily Omer reminder, please >click here. > >---------- > HOW TO COUNT THE OMER > >The Omer is counted at night, while standing, >immediately following the evening prayer. You >begin with the following blessing: > >Blessed are You, L-rd our G-d, King of the >Universe, who has sanctified us with His >commandments, and commanded us concerning the counting of the Omer. > >Following this blessing you count the specific >day of the Omer, and then recite the following prayer: > >May the Merciful One restore the Holy Temple to >its place, speedily in our days; Amen. > >For the Choirmaster; a song with instrumental >music; a Psalm. May G-d be gracious to us and >bless us; may He make His countenance shine upon >us forever; that Your way be known on earth, >Your salvation among all nations. The nations >will extol You, O G-d; all the nations will >extol You. The nations will rejoice and sing for >joy, for You will judge the peoples justly and >guide the nations on earth forever. The peoples >will extol You, O G-d; all the peoples will >extol You, for the earth will have yielded its >produce and G-d; our G-d, will bless us. G-d >will bless us; and all, from the farthest >corners of the earth, shall fear Him. > >We implore you, by the great power of Your right >hand, release the captive. Accept the prayer of >Your people; strengthen us, purify us, Awesome >One. Mighty One, we beseech You, guard as the >apple of the eye those who seek Your Oneness. >Bless them, cleanse them; bestow upon them >forever Your merciful righteousness. Powerful, >Holy One, in Your abounding goodness, guide Your >congregation. Only and Exalted One, turn to Your >people who are mindful of Your holiness. Accept >our supplication and hear our cry, You who knows >secret thoughts. Blessed be the name of the >glory of His kingdom forever and ever. > >Master of the universe, You have commanded us >through Moses Your servant to count Sefirat >Ha-Omer, in order to purify us from our evil and >uncleanness. As You have written in Your Torah, >"You shall count for yourselves from the day >following the day of rest, from the day on which >you bring the Omer as a wave-offering; shall be >for seven full weeks. Until the day following >the seventh week shall you count fifty days," so >that the souls of Your people Israel may be >cleansed from their defilement. Therefore, may >it be Your will, L-rd our G-d and G-d of our >fathers, that in the merit of the Sefirat >Ha-Omer which I counted today, the blemish that >I have caused in the sefirah be rectified and I >may be purified and sanctified with supernal >holiness. May abundant bounty thereby be >bestowed upon all the worlds. May it rectify our >nefesh, ruach and neshamah from every baseness >and defect, and may it purify and sanctify us >with Your supernal holiness. Amen, selah. > > > >Please visit >this >link to update your preferences. > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/b2229628/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 14 07:07:50 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:07:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <855590370904140507x62299565ue0e14062a7222362@mail.gmail.com> Shalom L'Kulam, Okay, I rarely forward personal emails, but I thought you'd get a chuckle out of this one. An old friend of mine Fern, just saw these online and sent them to me. If you like at the boyish looking 18 year old in the middle in the back row, that's yours truly, in Moscow, prior to our sit-in. The guy next to me in the hat (& glasses) is my friend Gershon, who now has a very senior position in Israel's largest refinery in Haifa. Ah, to be young and carefree, and feel like you're able to change the world!! Enjoy the rest of Pesah! Moadim L'Simcha, * Hanoch * ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern ------------------------------ Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/570574f4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Another pic of Betarim in Moscow.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/570574f4/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Hanoch Young in Moscow.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 58366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/570574f4/attachment-0001.jpg From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Apr 14 07:24:52 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:24:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer count Message-ID: Another calendar for the counting of the omer. http://www.koshertorah.com/PDF/omer5769.pdf From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 08:16:01 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:16:01 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you inMoscow with Betar In-Reply-To: <855590370904140507x62299565ue0e14062a7222362@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904140507x62299565ue0e14062a7222362@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <041420091316.21225.49E48C90000CC74B000052E922216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, very cool! Who knows, maybe ya don't need to be young to change the world. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Shalom L'Kulam, Okay, I rarely forward personal emails, but I thought you'd get a chuckle out of this one. An old friend of mine Fern, just saw these online and sent them to me. If you like at the boyish looking 18 year old in the middle in the back row, that's yours truly, in Moscow, prior to our sit-in. The guy next to me in the hat (& glasses) is my friend Gershon, who now has a very senior position in Israel's largest refinery in Haifa. Ah, to be young and carefree, and feel like you're able to change the world!! Enjoy the rest of Pesah! Moadim L'Simcha, Hanoch ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/02ce4ad3/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:33:07 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:33:07 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King] Message-ID: Thank you so much for these articles Joe - your words and the wisdom contained in them has bought a lot to light. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/eea1ec8c/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Apr 14 08:36:03 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:36:03 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] P. S. Hotel Rooms for UIWU Meeting Message-ID: James - you're making me yearn to be there! I can't wait to experience some of it online - HaShem willing. I pray you all have a safe journey there and a wonderful uplifting remarkable time together. You are all so wonderful - spare a thought for those of us listening from afar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/748b8545/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/748b8545/attachment.gif From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 08:59:24 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:59:24 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] FYI Message-ID: <041420091359.11365.49E496BB000773E100002C6522230650029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> US still not happy with 'Durban II' draft By HILARY LEILA KRIEGER, TOVAH LAZAROFF AND ALLISON HOFFMAN The United States welcomed changes made to the draft document for the United Nations' anti-racism conference starting Monday in Geneva but indicated they were not sufficient for the US to change its position and attend the event, according to a statement released late Monday. "Substantial improvements have been made, including shortening the document, removing all language that singled out any one country or conflict, and removing language that embraced the concept of 'defamation of religion' and that demanded reparations for slavery," said State Department Acting Spokesman Robert Wood in the statement, referring to earlier objections including undue focus on Israel. "There remain, however, elements of the current draft text that continue to pose significant concerns." The statement, however, held out the possibility that the United States could "re-engage the conference process with the hope of arriving at a conference document that we can support" if additional changes were made. These include dropping its reaffirmation of the "flawed" document that resulted from the first such UN World Conference Against Racism, held in Durban, South Africa in 2001. Israel has been particularly troubled by the reaffirmation of the earlier document because of language singling out and criticizing the Jewish state, though all other language that referenced Israel has now been removed from the 2009 text. The wrangling over the contents of the draft outcome document for the Durban review could continue throughout the week, leaving the US presence up in the air until right before the conference begins. Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva Roni Leshno Yaar told The Jerusalem Post , "We are still very far from closure on this business." The last planning session for the conference ends on Friday, April 17, just three days before the event opens on Monday, April 20. "We will continue with this game until the very last day and hour before the conference," he said. In anticipation of the State Department statement, and amidst lingering concerns that the US would participate in the Geneva meeting, several Jewish groups and members of Congress released statements calling on the Obama administration to refuse to participate rather than attend and confer legitimacy on the event. Israel, Canada and Italy have already said they will boycott the conference. "The latest conference working group draft statement is still fundamentally unacceptable. The very first clause reaffirms the hate-filled declarations of the 2001 Durban Conference, which singled out only one country in the world for condemnation - Israel," wrote Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Illinois) and Shelley Berkley (D-Nevada) in a letter Monday to US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. When the United States and Italy followed Israel and Canada's lead, and other European countries threatened to boycott the event as well, steps were taken to amend the draft text of the conference document to stem the growing swell of opponents. In addition to those changes not going far enough, Israel is also concerned that the event will replicate the virulent anti-Semitic atmosphere of the 2001 United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. Israel and the US walked out of that conference in protest, though the European Union remained. News Monday that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who seeks to annihilate Israel, had formally announced his intention to attend the anti-racism conference only fed those fears that Durban II would be a repeat of the 2001 event. Ahmadinejad's decision to come has complicated the issue, said Leshno Yaar, adding that the Iranian president was not coming to praise Western democracies. Now there are more questions on the agenda, Leshno Yaar noted: If those democracies attend, will they also listen to his speech or will they walk out? How will they sit in the room while Ahmadinejad is speaking against them and against Israel? The issue here goes beyond the text to the overall atmosphere of hatred that can be created, said Leshno Yaar. In 2001, the worst anti-Semitism came from the forums of the non-governmental organizations that met on the sidelines of the anti-racism conference. Already in advance of Durban II, a two-day anti-Israel NGO conference is scheduled to meet on April 18 and 19, called "The Israel Review Conference." An anti-Israel rally is also scheduled in Geneva for April 18. The American Jewish Committee sent a letter to the Obama administration last week opposing participation in the conference, given not just the text of the current documents, but the tenor of the negotiations on the text over the past several months. "As far as the official conference is concerned, we are calling on the governments, including the US administration, not to participate," said AJC associate director of international affairs Aaron Jacob, a former diplomat in Israel's UN mission. He said that even if references to the resolutions adopted in 2001 were removed from the current crop of draft documents, there would still be a problem of "the environment" of negotiations over the past few months, in which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been cast as a racial issue rather than a strictly political one. Jacob said AJC had not received a response from the US State Department. The AJC was nervous about US participation because the administration's February decision to withdraw left the door open for America to change its mind if satisfactory changes were made to the text. "We're hopeful that the administration would continue to remain firm on principle and stand by allies like Canada, Italy and Israel," said David Michaels, director of UN affairs for B'nai B'rith. Michaels said B'nai B'rith would send a delegation to Geneva to monitor the proceedings whatever the final document drafts included. "We're not there to vote or to provide cover or legitimacy to developments," Michaels told the Post. "Frankly we're there to show solidarity with Israel and with the Jewish community - we won't be absent should the same players, whether member state representatives or [NGO] representatives come to this forum with signs that equate the Star of David with a swastika," Michaels added. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/2fda5ab3/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 14 09:18:57 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:18:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar In-Reply-To: <855590370904140507x62299565ue0e14062a7222362@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904140507x62299565ue0e14062a7222362@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b601c9bd0b$f528ee00$df7aca00$@com> And a handsome YOUNG fellow you were! From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Fwd: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar Shalom L'Kulam, Okay, I rarely forward personal emails, but I thought you'd get a chuckle out of this one. An old friend of mine Fern, just saw these online and sent them to me. If you like at the boyish looking 18 year old in the middle in the back row, that's yours truly, in Moscow, prior to our sit-in. The guy next to me in the hat (& glasses) is my friend Gershon, who now has a very senior position in Israel's largest refinery in Haifa. Ah, to be young and carefree, and feel like you're able to change the world!! Enjoy the rest of Pesah! Moadim L'Simcha, Hanoch ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 9:24 AM Subject: to Hanoch - from Fern - re: old pics of you in Moscow with Betar To: YoungBarzel at aol.com Cc: youngbarzel at gmail.com Hi Hanoch: Wishing you and your family Chag Kasher v'Sameach !! Someone posted some old pictures of the Betar group that went to Moscow in 1976 on the Facebook page. I thought you'd like to see them so I've included them as an attachment file that you can download. Fern _____ Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar ! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/83c46191/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Apr 14 09:28:50 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 10:28:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Free Room Sharing at UIWU Conference References: Message-ID: <05D3B67A-6B47-432B-99B6-C3F264EE2A28@earthlink.net> Ross and I got this very kind offer this morning from Marvin Hyde. If there is any single male out there who might want to take him up on the offer at no cost in order to attend the conference, please contact Marvin directly. James Begin forwarded message: > From: "mhyde" > Date: April 14, 2009 8:33:06 AM EDT > To: "James Tabor" , > Subject: UIWU conference > > James and Ross, > > I have experience e-mail problems these last few weeks. Not sure if > you got my email informing you that I will be attending the UIWU > conference. I have rented a double room. If you know of someone > needing to share, the room is on me. Lots of people dealing with > the economic hard times, just thought maybe we could help someone > who might not be able to attend otherwise. > > See you Friday, April 24. > > Marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/25c56ef9/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 14 14:49:32 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:49:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] P. S. Hotel Rooms for UIWU Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B9575F8781B484ABFEAB269BF6EDC46@bettylaptop> Catherine, I know you addressed this to James, but I just wanted to jump in and tell you that of course we will "spare a thought" for those listening from afar. You will be with us in spirit, I know that! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Catherine Cashmore Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 8:36 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] P. S. Hotel Rooms for UIWU Meeting James - you're making me yearn to be there! I can't wait to experience some of it online - HaShem willing. I pray you all have a safe journey there and a wonderful uplifting remarkable time together. You are all so wonderful - spare a thought for those of us listening from afar Smile emoticon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/6f2137b3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/6f2137b3/attachment.gif From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 14 15:39:07 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:39:07 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The 7th Day of Passover Message-ID: <49E4F46B.6080002@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/f65d1a2c/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 14 16:05:53 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:05:53 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Freedom On The First Day, Freedom On The Last Day Message-ID: <49E4FAB1.6030005@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/d5b52664/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 14 16:10:24 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:10:24 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: some counting-the-Omer ruminations] Message-ID: <49E4FBC0.9000103@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/a2c3905c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] RE: some counting-the-Omer ruminations Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 01:39:25 -0700 Size: 42374 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/a2c3905c/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 14 16:16:30 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:16:30 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FYI] Message-ID: <49E4FD2E.20808@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/7892128d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net Subject: [Dialogue] FYI Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:59:24 +0000 Size: 19492 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/7892128d/attachment.eml From correim at gninc.ca Tue Apr 14 18:59:29 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:59:29 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. In-Reply-To: <040720092023.15015.49DBB659000E9B3400003AA722230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <040720092023.15015.49DBB659000E9B3400003AA722230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <49E52361.60309@gninc.ca> Hey John, that really seems to shed some light on the matter. Just one paragraph of the Islamic summit, It seems to me people have different opinions of what terrorism really means!!!!! Cornie The Conference stressed the need to condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, reject any justification for it, and declared its solidarity with Member States which have been victims of terrorism and again stated the necessity to criminalize all terrorist practices and all forms of their support, finance and instigation, considering terrorism a global phenomenon not related to any religion, race, color or country. The Conference emphasized also the importance of joining international efforts to combat this phenomenon, and to endeavor to implement the recommendations adopted by the International Counter-Terrorism Conference, held in Riyadh in 2005, including the creation of an International Center for Combating Terrorism, as well as the need to differentiate between terrorism and the legitimate resistance to foreign occupation. The Conference also stressed the need to support the efforts aimed at drawing up an International Code of Conduct for Combating Terrorism, as well as the need to hold an international conference for special session of the United Nations General Assembly to affirm international agreement on laying down a coherent strategy for combating this dangerous phenomenon. carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Read them carefully, it will take some time. > > > http://www.islamicsummit.org.sa/en/9-9.aspx > > http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngo_forum_at_durban_conference_ > > http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/e06a5300f90fa0238025668700518ca4/5ccb9aef32a51edcc1256a990051ac81/$FILE/G0114570.doc > > http://www.un.org/durbanreview2009/pdf/intersession_open_ended19109.pdf > > -- > John C. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/3c625d68/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 19:16:43 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:16:43 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. In-Reply-To: <49E52361.60309@gninc.ca> References: <040720092023.15015.49DBB659000E9B3400003AA722230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><49E52361.60309@gninc.ca> Message-ID: <433286095-1239754629-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1852058714-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> You got it Cornie. The whole document is a wolf in sheep's clothing. John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Cornie Reimer Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:59:29 To: Subject: Re: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. _______________________________________________ From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 20:01:55 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:01:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Freedom On The First Day, Freedom On The Last Day In-Reply-To: <49E4FAB1.6030005@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <041520090101.11543.49E532030002547B00002D1722230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> "On the first day we are freed in this world but on the seventh day we were freed from this world. We are empowered to put civilization behind us and enter a barren wasteland abandoned by the civilized world and prepare to enter the real world, the world of the Torah." This is what I was talking about regarding the Jewish perspective; it's not, "Believe these things or you will die!", or "Believe these things or we will kill you!", its "Choose HaShem and live, here and now!". -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Freedom On The First Day, Freedom On The Last Day Yetziat Mitzrayim and Zman Cheiruseinu are on the first day of Pesach. On the seventh day of Pesach our oppressors met their final fate. Which is the real day that we were freed? The Maharal says that the number seven represents the earthly world. It was created in seven days and the world goes in cycles of seven, Shabbat, Shmitah, among others. On the seventh the world is complete. The eighth is beyond this world. It is the world of Ruchniyot. It is where man rises above this world. Mila is the first mitzva a person does and we do it on the eighth day. On the first day of Pesach we were freed from Mitzrayim to explore the world. We learned that it is not all that we dreamed it would be. Even as free people in the world enemies will still pursue us. We don't understand the things that happen to us from a natural point of view. On the seventh day the geula was complete. We saw Hashem with our own eyes and understood everything. We understood that there is something beyond this world, far greater than the smallness of the universe and the events that unfold in it. On the first day we are freed in this world but on the seventh day we were freed from this world. We are empowered to put civilization behind us and enter a barren wasteland abandoned by the civilized world and prepare to enter the real world, the world of the Torah. Something to think about as Chag ha Matzot ends and we count the Omer to Shavuot. The purpose of the Exodus has its culmination not at the Yam Suf (Sea of Reeds) but at Har Sinai where our true freedom is achieved by the revelation of Torah. 7x7+1 = 50. Seven cycles of Seven plus the ONE that transcends the natural into the supranatural. As the waters came down on Pharaoh so the walls came down on Jericho. Shavuot, this is the true independence day with the giving of the Holy Constitution. The nation of Yisrael is born as an act of Divine Sovereignty. We have freedom to worship the Holy One, blessed be He, in spirit and in truth. The spirit of the light of the Menorah that illuminates us. The truth of the Lechem h'Panim (Bread of the Face) that feeds us, for man shall not eat of bread alone but from every word that proceeds from the mouth of HaShem. Have a blessed completion to Chag ha Matzot. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/199c440d/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 20:20:16 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 01:20:16 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] The 7th Day of Passover In-Reply-To: <49E4F46B.6080002@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <041520090120.21487.49E5364F00057063000053EF22230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, This is very poignent to me, it's a very powerful analogy. For those of us who have come from the backgrounds we have all talked about here, there is a very painful truth related to these ideas that Yeshua made clear; Matthew 10:14-15 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. I have to believe that when the Israelites left Egypt, they left many Egyptian friends behind to thier fate (as I understand it, some Egyptians went with them and therefore left family behind). Why else would the Egyptians give them riches to take with them as G-d commanded that they ask for. I believe that not all Egyptians felt the same way about the Israelites as Pharoah and his cronies did. I know some would say that they wanted to get rid of them, and I'm sure that was partially true, but very few things are black and white. Anyway, "it is what it is", as a friend of mine is won't to say. We gotta move on. Shalom. --- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- The 7th Day of Passover - - - - - - - posted by Reb. Nati - - 4/14/2009 12:15:00 AM ET by Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths Rebbe Nachman of Breslev taught: "Even if a person should fall to the lowest level, he must never assume that he is beyond hope." Our forefathers found themselves in similar circumstances on the shores of Red Sea. Before them, the sea; behind them, the Egyptians; wild animals and wilderness on either side. In the worst possible situation they did not give up hope. They cried out to Hashem and were heard. Similarly, no matter how far one is from Hashem, there is still hope. Atik is the highest, most lofty spiritual level in existence (Etz Chaim, Sha'ar Atik). It is from there that assistance comes to a person, even if he is to be found in the lowest levels. Thus, the miracle of splitting of the Red Sea can be summed up this way: even though all seems lost, there is still hope for a redemption (Likutey Moharan I, 21). Reb Nosson teaches a further concept tied in with the splitting of the Red Sea is the breaking of haughtiness. Pharaoh said "Who is Hashem that I should listen to Him!" During this entire episode, Moshe Rabaynu tried to convince Pharaoh that Hashem rules the world and that He could destroy Pharaoh completely. However, the Egyptian ruler had declared himself a deity. Thus Pharaoh, like most people in a position of power, is characterized by arrogance and haughtiness. The splitting of the Red sea demonstrated how this arrogance could be completely broken. Moshe turned the sea bed into dry land. Earth is associated with the concept of modesty. Great rushing water, with it's powerful waves 'sure of it's strength and unchallenged power' is everything that a person views as the epitome of greatness. Yet, within a short period of time, Hashem destroyed the water's arrogance by changing it into dry earth. Thus the song that Moshe and the Jews sang when the Red Sea split was one of praise to Hashem, for He is great and rules over all those who are arrogance and haughty (Likutey Halakhot, Orlah 4). When the Jews left Egypt and came close to Hashem, they received great wealth. This is because wealth is rooted in the same source of holiness as the soul. However, there is one bad trait through which it is possible for a person to lose all his wealth. This trait is ANGER. When the opposing forces see that a person is about to receive wealth and blessings, they try to bring him to anger. CHeMaH, anger, creates a breach in his CHoMah, his protective wall, which is also his wealth (Likutey Moharan I,68). It is forbidden to eat Chametz on Pesach, for chametz is the concept of anger. Chametz rises. Like arrogance and anger, it's blown up. Likewise, we must avoid exaggeration in our lifestyles. The way we live should not be arrogant and blown up. When the Red Sea split, the waters stood like a wall (chomah) for the Jews. Afterwards, the Jews were able to withstand any anger (chemah) and were permitted to have Chametz. This is why, after the Seventh Day of Pesach in Israel, the eighth day outside of Israel, Chametz is permitted (Likutey Halakhot, Harsha'ah 4). Chag Samayach! Reb Nati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/ed3c4d8f/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 21:04:08 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:04:08 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] grafted in In-Reply-To: <270425.82657.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <041520090204.9405.49E540970000FF90000024BD22243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Sandra and Betty, I'm not trying to be critical here but I am going to cut and paste a comment each of you made only for the sake of clarity as I try to respond to them; Betty - "I What I mean is whatever was given to Israel wouldn't they be obligated to follow the same? When they say, all that is done away with, aren't they a part of Israel? How can they throw away what they are grafted into? I'm confused. Would someone like to explain this to me?" Sandra - "Some think it is not important when we keep them so long as we keep them. I disagree with this. YeHoWaH gave us specific times and dates to keep His holy days, for us to keep them on the days we see fit and not seek YeHoWaH's instructions and obey them is idolatry. This is what the Northern kingdom did. They changed the days to suit themselves and they went into idolatry. They were cast out of the land because of their idolatry. Some say we should follow the teaching of the Rabbis. My understanding of the Tanakh does not seem to fit what the Rabbi's teach so I personally can not accept this teaching." As I see it, this is the crux of the matter. We all want to find the "one way" to accomplish what G-d has required of us. The problem is, there as many interpretations of that "one way" as there are people, +1. Regardless of thier religion. I hate to bring this up but the counting of the Omer is only one example of the disagreement within Judaism itself regarding how to comply with G-d's wishes, there are many others. As I've said before, the Jewish culture is very careful to preserve all consenting and opposing views for posterity. Sandra, you yourself say that you disagree with the Rabbi's, but I'll bet there are a few who agree with you. The thing I am having the most trouble with here is the inclination to judgement. We are all guilty of it. But in these circles it seems to manifest itself in equating those who are truly seeking thier way out of the lies they have lived with all of thier lives with the creation of the lies in the first place. To put it in perspective, I am not trying to change Judaism into something that fits my belief system. I have discovered that Judaism already fits my belief system (not so much to my surprise), I'm simply trying to understand how all of the trappings(as defined by those who have lived this life) fit in with the core beliefs I KNOW are true. Yes, I'm sure it is important to G-d that we observe these festivals in His timeframe, but I'm also certain that the whole purpose for the festivals themselves was for us to REMEMBER. If we're off by a day or two for now, He'll forgive us, we are His children, willing to learn. There is a BIG difference between those who make mistakes trying to learn, and those who intentionally lead others astray for their own gain (as the prophets have condemned for millennia, including Yeshua). Things are changing, there is no room for assumptions. That's the purpose of this list, to learn from each other. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Betty Eddy : -------------- I have a question. The Christian thought, as I understand it is that they, the Christians, are grafted in. Another concept is that they are adopted. What are they grafted into and who adopted them? If it is Israel, does it mean that they are now part of Israel? I What I mean is whatever was given to Israel wouldn't they be obligated to follow the same? When they say, all that is done away with, aren't they a part of Israel? How can they throw away what they are grafted into? I'm confused. Would someone like to explain this to me? Betty Eddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/cd928332/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 14 21:30:58 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:30:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends, this note is being written specifically to Sandra, but I think vitally concerns us all. It is a message from my heart. Dear Sandra, I will copy and paste your text below and will put my responses in blue. It was me who suggested we pray together at the same time. I was not speaking of counting the omer at the same time as I know we are all in different time zones. I was speaking of praying for understanding of when YeHoWaH's days are to be kept. I did not answer your post immediately because quite frankly I felt I had to let it settle in my mind a few days before responding. I understand now what I did not understand before in your previous email that your request was not to count the omer at the same time, but rather to pray for understanding as to when HaShem's days are to be kept. I apologize that I probably did not take the time I needed to actually read what you had to say before responding and did not want to make the same mistake again. I am all for prayer. I would not be where I am today were that not true and I am sure you would not be where you are today either. I know that one person can not truly get into the heart and mind of another and understand clearly where that person is coming from, but I hope that you will take my words and be able to discern the heart intent (the kavanah)of the message that I am writing to you in response to what you wrote. I realize that we are all coming from different places and that the perspective places we find ourselves today may still be different from one another; but I can say with full assurance that all of the people that I personally know on this list are where they are at this very point in time as a result of much soul searching and prayer.and this is an ongoing process.the soul searching and the prayers are continually going up before HaShem! Some think it is not important when we keep them so long as we keep them. I disagree with this. YeHoWaH gave us specific times and dates to keep His holy days, for us to keep them on the days we see fit and not seek YeHoWaH's instructions and obey them is idolatry. This is what the Northern kingdom did. They changed the days to suit themselves and they went into idolatry. They were cast out of the land because of their idolatry. I do think it is important when we keep the days that HaShem ordained, and did not in any way intend to infer that we can just arbitrarily choose whatever day we want "as we see fit." I can only speak for myself, but I would not imagine that anyone on this list would be so blatant as to make this statement. I think the point that a number of people, including myself, were trying to make is that there are a number of different interpretations that been a long ongoing thru the centuries as to when "the morrow after the Sabbath is." And if we lose ourselves in arguing, we lose the whole purpose of the counting of the omer which is for us to REMEMBER, to do T'SHUVAH (to repent), to be guided by HaShem and allow ourselves to be cleansed and purified.each evening when we count, we wrap ourselves in prayer.asking for help, strength, purification, rectification.sincere prayers from the sincere hearts of people who love HaShem. I hardly think that this qualifies us to be included with the Northern Kingdom and their idolatry. We are not by my way of thinking changing the days to "suit ourselves," nor are we going into idolatry. Some say we should follow the teaching of the Rabbis. My understanding of the Tanakh does not seem to fit what the Rabbi's teach so I personally can not accept this teaching. If we are not keeping the new moons and Sabbaths in accordance with the commands of YeHoWaH, we are not pleasing Him. There is great wisdom, in my opinion in what the Rabbi's teach, as they and the Jewish people (Judah) have been given the honor of being a "light to the nations" preserving the Torah throughout the centuries. But even within the rabbinical literature, there is disagreement as to when the omer should be started. So if one says they don't agree with the rabbis, which rabbis are they not agreeing with? Again, there are different interpretations. I honestly believe that HaShem can take care of rectifying the count if we miss it for a few days. Many of us in years past have had these discussions before, we have prayed and still come up with different interpretations. Some in fact, have even counted the omer both ways.one in solidarity with the Jewish people and another by the morrow after the 7th day Sabbath or by the Karite calendar which goes by the sighting of the New Moon is Israel. In my opinion the passage you quote below is clearly out of the context of this discussion and far too judgmental. This applied to the Northern tribes who had gone into idolatry.a completely different issue. Isaiah 1:12-20 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations - I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith YeHoWaH; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of YeHoWaH hath spoken. I don't believe that any one of us has the corner on all the truth.in His time, HaShem will reveal it all, when "the whole earth is full of the knowledge of HaShem!" I don't mean to cause hurt or pain to you or anyone.I don't like controversy and seldom get in the middle of it, but since you addressed this email to me specifically, I had to speak my heart.please take it in the intent with which it has been written.in love. Shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 6:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] re-dont forget to count the omer Shalom Betty, It was me who suggested we pray together at the same time. I was not speaking of counting the omer at the same time as I know we are all in different time zones. I was speaking of praying for understanding of when YeHoWaH's days are to be kept. Some think it is not important when we keep them so long as we keep them. I disagree with this. YeHoWaH gave us specific times and dates to keep His holy days, for us to keep them on the days we see fit and not seek YeHoWaH's instructions and obey them is idolatry. This is what the Northern kingdom did. They changed the days to suit themselves and they went into idolatry. They were cast out of the land because of their idolatry. Some say we should follow the teaching of the Rabbis. My understanding of the Tanakh does not seem to fit what the Rabbi's teach so I personally can not accept this teaching. If we are not keeping the new moons and Sabbaths in accordance with the commands of YeHoWaH, we are not pleasing Him. Isaiah 1:12-20 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations - I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith YeHoWaH; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land; But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of YeHoWaH hath spoken. Much of our understanding is corrupted by what we have been taught by men and in the false religions we have come out of. We need to look to the Tanakh for answers and pray that YeHoWaH will reveal His truth to us so that we can keep His Holy days as He has commanded them to be kept. This is my understanding of what we must do. I guess that those on this list won't agree. In that case I will just have to disagree with you all. May YeHoWaH be with us and give us a heart to seek His truth and obey Him as He has commanded us. Shalom, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/9e8f8a51/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 21:38:05 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:38:05 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Mashiach : The Teacher and The King In-Reply-To: <49E398B6.1080800@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <041520090238.22192.49E5488C000C49F9000056B022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Joe, Just a couple of thoughts. The beginning of this article gives me an answer to the question of why mankind wanted a king in the first place. When HaShem came to Israel as both teacher and King on Mount Sinai, they told Moses that they wanted him to represent them because HaShem frightened them. They never said that Moses was their king but there was little practical difference. As humans, we relate to that which is familiar to us. That which is not, frightens us, especially when it is powerful. The point is, that by this time, HaShem is thoroughly unfamiliar to them. No so for Moses. So, it is not so surprising that at the end of this article, it is apparent that for Judah, Maschiach will be teacher first and King besides. But for the rest of the people, he will be King first and then teacher. It is not the nature of the teacher that sets us apart, but the pedicament of the student. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Mashiach : The Teacher and The King "The spirit of G-d shall rest upon him?He will be permeated with the spirit of the fear of G-d?The wolf will dwell with the lamb." (Isaiah 11:2) In this passage from the Haftarah for the Eighth Day of Passover outside of Israel, the prophet describes the coming of Mashiach who will arrive and redeem us speedily in our days, highlighting several aspects of the King Mashiach's qualities and his conduct. At the outset, it describes the spiritual level of Mashiach himself: "And the spirit of G-d shall rest upon him?" And then it continues to describe his conduct: "And he will be permeated with the spirit of the fear of G-d?" Our Sages interpret (Sanhedrin 93b) this phrase to mean that he will judge the righteous through his sense of smell. Afterwards, the verse continues: "And a wolf shall dwell with a lamb?," indicating that Mashiach's conduct will bring about (1) the revelation of G-dliness throughout the world, not only among humans, but also among animals (2) and within the sphere of inanimate objects, (3) as the passage continues, "and the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d" (Isaiah 11:9). Even the physical earth will be "filled with the knowledge of G-d." But seeing that "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d," why will it be necessary to have a king in that age? [Seemingly, the purpose of a king is to enforce law and order; since all existence will be permeated with the knowledge of G-d, it would appear that such enforcement will not be necessary.] In short, the explanation of the concept is that kingship is identified with the quality of exaltedness, the concept that a king is separate and uplifted above his people. Even the commands given by a king reflect closeness; the king draws closer to his people by leading them according to his desires. His subjects' obedience to the king's commands does not come because they know and appreciate the reason for the commands, but rather out of fear and dread for the king, as our Sages say, (Sanhedrin 22a) "His dread must be upon you." Thus even the goodness the king gives to his people reflects that he is exalted and separate. This reflects the difference between the influence given by a teacher and that given by a king. When a teacher influences a student, he draws closer to him, for he restricts his own understanding to a level appropriate for the student so that the student will grasp the idea. The influence of a king, by contrast, remains separate from the people, above their intellectual comprehension; this is because a king communicates his wishes as decrees, to be accepted out of awe of him - and not because the people understand.) The source for these two types of influence which Mashiach will provide, that of a king and that of a teacher, is in the Torah (4), for the Torah contains parallels to both of these influences. There are certain Torah concepts that have been enclothed in an intellectual form, paralleling the influence of a teacher. The essence of the Torah, however, remains above intellect, paralleling the influence of a king. In the Era of the Redemption, both of these dimensions will become manifest, and thus Mashiach will be called both a teacher and a king. Mashiach will teach the Torah to the entire Jewish people and convey a fine discerning and knowledgeable appreciation of the Torah's mystic secrets. Because of this influence, Mashiach will be considered as a teacher. And yet, Mashiach himself will comprehend infinitely more than he will communicate through intellect. This dimension of his being he will also convey to the people, but he will do so in an encompassing manner, as a king conveys influence. [The word "encompassing", makif in Hebrew, refers to a light or form of influence that is too powerful to be grasped and internalized and therefore is described as "encompassing." The point is, however, that this encompassing influence is not entirely transcendent. Instead, although it is too powerful to be internalized, it does influence the person.] Moreover, as is well known, Mashiach will teach people the Torah using the medium of sight, a manner of instruction that transcends ordinary comprehension. Nevertheless, the influence which he will convey as a king is so lofty that it cannot even be revealed through the transcendent influence of sight. And yet, because Mashiach will also serve as a king, he will reveal even these matters to the Jewish people. Their revelation, however, will be in an encompassing matter. [Excerpted from Sefer HaMa'amarim Melukat II pp 45-46 by the Lubavitcher Rebbes translated by Rabbi Eliyahu Touger in "Anticipating the Redemption" Vol. II (S.I.E.] Footnotes: (1) Note also that the Rambam (Mishna Torah, Hilchot Melachim 11:4) when speaking of Mashiach "perfecting) the world" refers to mankind [as indicated by the proof text he chooses: "I will transform the nations?"] The Rambam also interprets [ibid. 12:1]: "A wolf will dwell with a lamb," as an allegory referring to mankind. (2) Although the Rambam maintains that this verse should be interpreted as an allegory, the sages of Kabbala and Chasidut rule that the verses should be interpreted according to their simple meaning. (3) Note the verse, "A stone from the wall will call out" (Habakkuk 2:11), Midrash Tehillim (ch. 73) states that in the Era of the Redemption even inanimate objects will be permeated by G-dly energy. (4) The same is true with regard to all entities that exist, for they are all a reflection - after numerous intermediate levels - from concepts that exist in the Torah, as implied by the statement "(G-d) looked in the Torah and created the world. (Zohar, Vol. II, p. 161a, b) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/dcfe478e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 21:49:43 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:49:43 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! In-Reply-To: References: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <041520090249.12704.49E54B4600060B47000031A022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> This is beautiful Betty. Maybe we could set aside some time for you to teach this prayer to us at the conference? Please? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Joe, I find this prayer, Ana Bkoach (We beg you) to be very moving and meaningful, and even more so now that I can hear it put to music, which I love! It is interesting that it is found in the prayers for counting the omer (at least in the Sephardi Artscroll version, p.317). I remembered it because it is right before the Bedtime Shema. I really did not make the full connection until I just now re-read the prayer and listened to the song. This is the prayer that has the reference to untying the ?bundled sins? that I just mentioned in my previous email to you regarding the omer count. It is truly amazing to me, how often things come together for some of us at the same time! I just listened to the tune that you gave on your link?it is beautiful. I found another one that I have added below that is lovely and very moving. The portion of the title, ?healing the core of the soul,? is what caught my attention?as this is what I think I personally need?and might I say, what we all need?to prepare for Shavuot and the day that HaShem will indeed write His words on our hearts! It is beautifully sung with such kavanah?just the voice of a single woman?with no accompaniment?I felt like it reached the core of my soul! Ana Bkoach, Healing the Core of the Soul, Kol Isha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tA66N0ym0&feature=related Chag Samaech for these remaining days and may we each have a meaningful omer count! Elisheva/Betty . Shalom all my musician Chaverim, Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg The power of the hidden 42-LETTER name of God The Ana BeKoach (Ana BeCoach or Ana B'Koach) prayer was written in the first century by a great kabalistic Rabbi - Rabbi Nehonia. The prayer was written according to the seventy names of God - a term related to Abraham. The Ana BeKoach is composed of seven lines, with six words in each line. The first letter of every word is taken, thereby creating the 42-letter name. The combination of Ana BeKoach is hidden in the first 42 letters of the book of Genesis (From the word BERESHIT to the word VAVOHOO). The letters are translated using a secret kabalistic calculation. The Ana BeKoach prayer can be found in the Shaharit and Mincha prayers, and in the Shabbat prayer before Lecha Dodi. Today, Ana BeKoach is somewhat ignored, and in many prayers it is no longer used. The Ana Becoach prayer is greatly evaluated by spiritual and kabalistic followers that know of the great influence found in this 42-letter combination. Another representation of the Ana Bekoach is the 7 leaf Menorah. King David meditated on this for hours before entering into battle. David's related dream The model was made after David had a dream. As David relates "In the dream, I was in a very dark place. I was tied up and could not move anything. I tried to scream but my voice was gone. It was very frightening. Then the Ana BeKoach prayer rose up in my mind. I started saying it in my thoughts. When I reached the third line everything disappeared and I woke up." The number seven: 7 Sipherot, 7 verses to the Ana Bekoach, 7 days in a week are all represented by the 42 Names of G-d below: Ana Bekoach Prayer 1. Please, with the might of your right, untie the bundle: 2. Accept your people's prayer song, heighten, purify us, Mighty one: 3. Please hero, your uniqueness worshippers, guard them closely: 4. Bless them purify them, your rightfulness mercies, always reward: 5. Immune, proud, with your good will, manage your people: 6. Single, proud, address your people, who remember your holiness: 7. Accept our plead, and hear our cry, he who knows histories: Blessed be his kingdom's honor for ever: Each line relates to the 7 Sepherot of the Tree of Life Each line relates to the Days of the Week starting with Sunday. Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/53dfb777/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/53dfb777/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/53dfb777/attachment.jpe From correim at gninc.ca Tue Apr 14 22:06:44 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:06:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. In-Reply-To: <433286095-1239754629-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1852058714-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <040720092023.15015.49DBB659000E9B3400003AA722230703629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net><49E52361.60309@gninc.ca> <433286095-1239754629-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1852058714-@bxe1149.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <49E54F44.60206@gninc.ca> It's either Jacob or Issau, who will hold the reign's, who really going to be truly humble, honest, enough to be the victor? Cornie carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > You got it Cornie. > > The whole document is a wolf in sheep's clothing. > > John C. > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cornie Reimer > > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 18:59:29 > To: > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] For Your Perusal. > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 14 22:14:48 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:14:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! In-Reply-To: <041520090249.12704.49E54B4600060B47000031A022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au> <041520090249.12704.49E54B4600060B47000031A022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: John, I'm glad that you liked it. I thought it was so very special. I will have my siddur with me and would be happy to read it to anyone that would like to hear it. Why don't you guys think about trying to add it to your list of songs? Maybe sing it thru a couple of times, solo, and then together? Or if you don't have time to do that in such a short time frame, at least play it at the conference? The words are beautiful, but the melody is what gives soul to the prayer! That single solo voice just goes right thru you. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! This is beautiful Betty. Maybe we could set aside some time for you to teach this prayer to us at the conference? Please? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Joe, I find this prayer, Ana Bkoach (We beg you) to be very moving and meaningful, and even more so now that I can hear it put to music, which I love! It is interesting that it is found in the prayers for counting the omer (at least in the Sephardi Artscroll version, p.317). I remembered it because it is right before the Bedtime Shema. I really did not make the full connection until I just now re-read the prayer and listened to the song. This is the prayer that has the reference to untying the "bundled sins" that I just mentioned in my previous email to you regarding the omer count. It is truly amazing to me, how often things come together for some of us at the same time! I just listened to the tune that you gave on your link.it is beautiful. I found another one that I have added below that is lovely and very moving. The portion of the title, "healing the core of the soul," is what caught my attention.as this is what I think I personally need.and might I say, what we all need.to prepare for Shavuot and the day that HaShem will indeed write His words on our hearts! It is beautifully sung with such kavanah.just the voice of a single woman.with no accompaniment.I felt like it reached the core of my soul! Ana Bkoach, Healing the Core of the Soul, Kol Isha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tA66N0ym0 &feature=related Chag Samaech for these remaining days and may we each have a meaningful omer count! Elisheva/Betty _____ . Shalom all my musician Chaverim, Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg The power of the hidden 42-LETTER name of God The Ana BeKoach (Ana BeCoach or Ana B'Koach) prayer was written in the first century by a great kabalistic Rabbi - Rabbi Nehonia. The prayer was written according to the seventy names of God - a term related to Abraham. The Ana BeKoach is composed of seven lines, with six words in each line. The first letter of every word is taken, thereby creating the 42-letter name. The combination of Ana BeKoach is hidden in the first 42 letters of the book of Genesis (From the word BERESHIT to the word VAVOHOO). The letters are translated using a secret kabalistic calculation. The Ana BeKoach prayer can be found in the Shaharit and Mincha prayers, and in the Shabbat prayer before Lecha Dodi. Today, Ana BeKoach is somewhat ignored, and in many prayers it is no longer used. The Ana Becoach prayer is greatly evaluated by spiritual and kabalistic followers that know of the great influence found in this 42-letter combination. Another representation of the Ana Bekoach is the 7 leaf Menorah. King David meditated on this for hours before entering into battle. David's related dream The model was made after David had a dream. As David relates "In the dream, I was in a very dark place. I was tied up and could not move anything. I tried to scream but my voice was gone. It was very frightening. Then the Ana BeKoach prayer rose up in my mind. I started saying it in my thoughts. When I reached the third line everything disappeared and I woke up." The number seven: 7 Sipherot, 7 verses to the Ana Bekoach, 7 days in a week are all represented by the 42 Names of G-d below: Ana Bekoach Prayer 1. Please, with the might of your right, untie the bundle: 2. Accept your people's prayer song, heighten, purify us, Mighty one: 3. Please hero, your uniqueness worshippers, guard them closely: 4. Bless them purify them, your rightfulness mercies, always reward: 5. Immune, proud, with your good will, manage your people: 6. Single, proud, address your people, who remember your holiness: 7. Accept our plead, and hear our cry, he who knows histories: Blessed be his kingdom's honor for ever: Each line relates to the 7 Sepherot of the Tree of Life Each line relates to the Days of the Week starting with Sunday. Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/97ebd151/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/97ebd151/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090414/97ebd151/attachment.jpe From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 14 22:22:06 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:22:06 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! In-Reply-To: References: <49E30A10.5040209@westnet.com.au><041520090249.12704.49E54B4600060B47000031A022243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <041520090322.8163.49E552DC000B9EC600001FE322243323629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> We'll give it a shot. I'm working on an arrangement of "Jerusalem of Gold" for the conference (shh', that's a secret). Maybe some of us could get together in the courtyard and work on Ana B'koach during a break. I'll have to find the music. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- John, I?m glad that you liked it. I thought it was so very special. I will have my siddur with me and would be happy to read it to anyone that would like to hear it. Why don?t you guys think about trying to add it to your list of songs? Maybe sing it thru a couple of times, solo, and then together? Or if you don?t have time to do that in such a short time frame, at least play it at the conference? The words are beautiful, but the melody is what gives soul to the prayer! That single solo voice just goes right thru you? Elisheva/Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] SHIR - Ana B'koach, Healing the Core of the Soul! This is beautiful Betty. Maybe we could set aside some time for you to teach this prayer to us at the conference? Please? -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Joe, I find this prayer, Ana Bkoach (We beg you) to be very moving and meaningful, and even more so now that I can hear it put to music, which I love! It is interesting that it is found in the prayers for counting the omer (at least in the Sephardi Artscroll version, p.317). I remembered it because it is right before the Bedtime Shema. I really did not make the full connection until I just now re-read the prayer and listened to the song. This is the prayer that has the reference to untying the ?bundled sins? that I just mentioned in my previous email to you regarding the omer count. It is truly amazing to me, how often things come together for some of us at the same time! I just listened to the tune that you gave on your link?it is beautiful. I found another one that I have added below that is lovely and very moving. The portion of the title, ?healing the core of the soul,? is what caught my attention?as this is what I think I personally need?and might I say, what we all need?to prepare for Shavuot and the day that HaShem will indeed write His words on our hearts! It is beautifully sung with such kavanah?just the voice of a single woman?with no accompaniment?I felt like it reached the core of my soul! Ana Bkoach, Healing the Core of the Soul, Kol Isha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06tA66N0ym0&feature=related Chag Samaech for these remaining days and may we each have a meaningful omer count! Elisheva/Betty . Shalom all my musician Chaverim, Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg The power of the hidden 42-LETTER name of God The Ana BeKoach (Ana BeCoach or Ana B'Koach) prayer was written in the first century by a great kabalistic Rabbi - Rabbi Nehonia. The prayer was written according to the seventy names of God - a term related to Abraham. The Ana BeKoach is composed of seven lines, with six words in each line. The first letter of every word is taken, thereby creating the 42-letter name. The combination of Ana BeKoach is hidden in the first 42 letters of the book of Genesis (From the word BERESHIT to the word VAVOHOO). The letters are translated using a secret kabalistic calculation. The Ana BeKoach prayer can be found in the Shaharit and Mincha prayers, and in the Shabbat prayer before Lecha Dodi. Today, Ana BeKoach is somewhat ignored, and in many prayers it is no longer used. The Ana Becoach prayer is greatly evaluated by spiritual and kabalistic followers that know of the great influence found in this 42-letter combination. Another representation of the Ana Bekoach is the 7 leaf Menorah. King David meditated on this for hours before entering into battle. David's related dream The model was made after David had a dream. As David relates "In the dream, I was in a very dark place. I was tied up and could not move anything. I tried to scream but my voice was gone. It was very frightening. Then the Ana BeKoach prayer rose up in my mind. I started saying it in my thoughts. When I reached the third line everything disappeared and I woke up." The number seven: 7 Sipherot, 7 verses to the Ana Bekoach, 7 days in a week are all represented by the 42 Names of G-d below: Ana Bekoach Prayer 1. Please, with the might of your right, untie the bundle: 2. Accept your people's prayer song, heighten, purify us, Mighty one: 3. Please hero, your uniqueness worshippers, guard them closely: 4. Bless them purify them, your rightfulness mercies, always reward: 5. Immune, proud, with your good will, manage your people: 6. Single, proud, address your people, who remember your holiness: 7. Accept our plead, and hear our cry, he who knows histories: Blessed be his kingdom's honor for ever: Each line relates to the 7 Sepherot of the Tree of Life Each line relates to the Days of the Week starting with Sunday. Here is the tune. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnsOWDyqSg Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/d798290d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/d798290d/attachment.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 34788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/d798290d/attachment.jpe From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Wed Apr 15 05:52:11 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 20:52:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Message-ID: Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/97be4981/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Apr 15 07:22:07 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:22:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sandra, E-mail dialogue is a very difficult form of communication. Looking another person in the eye is also a very difficult form of communication. It is all open to interpretation, as we filter it through our own mind's, experience and knowledge base and then we all have our basis, which creates our unique perspective. My father and I had some very difficult conversations over the scriptures and truth that put much strain on our relationship. He I believe, died thinking that I was lost and going to hell because of my understanding of scripture.. My search for truth... just like his search for truth.. it was just that... A search for truth. One of the last conversations I had with my father as he lay dying was that I loved him, which his response was I believe you do! Also, I said, using Mt Sinai as a pattern, When God and Messiah show up, you and I, because we want to serve God, will submit our will to his, when he says, here is the way, walk in it. We will hear it and we will do it. Hang around, you will be surprise what you learn form this group of (what's the word I'm looking for?).. just like a real family. Shalom PS... If I had wanted to have truth all nail down and written out, I would have never left the CHURCH. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/53f8a7b1/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 08:43:57 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 23:43:57 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Message-ID: Sandra - please don't feel like you're not part of this group. I consider you a truthful and faithful person seeking enlightenment as we all are. I have gained much from your insights - as well as others on this dialogue who may not agree with your opinions. I think it is very valuable to be open to what others believe and their reasons for doing so - how else can we learn new thoughts and more importantly how can we join together as brothers and sisters if we don't listen, respect, and love each other for their devoted participation in striving and helping others reach the truth? We are all yearning to join together in mutual praise of HaShem. Stay with us Sandra, and always feel free to express whatever thoughts and insights you have - they are appreciated for their honesty and enjoyed. Much love - A sister - Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/40d414ce/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 15 08:53:39 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:53:39 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <041520091353.3725.49E5E6E30007648C00000E8D22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Sandra, I know that you addressed this to Betty and I'm sure she will respond as soon as she can, but I feel I need to respond as well. Please don't take offense to the responses you received to your original comments. As Marvin said, dialoging over email is particularly difficult because it is hard to gauge each others emotional content. I for one was trying very hard not to be critical while explaining that the folks on this list are not attempting to force Judiasm into a new mold, only trying to understand where thier walks are taking them. I can assure you that no-one on this list agrees 100% with anyone else about anything. But that's the purpose of dialogue, to learn how to disagree with each other respectfully and learn from each other in the process. If I misunderstood your original comments, I humbly apologize. By all means we are very interested in learning about your beliefs, you may be surprised to find that there are others here that share some of them. I had no intention of causing you to doubt your place here. Please reconsider your decision. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Sandra Inglis" : -------------- Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/4d566e53/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 09:46:02 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:46:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Gathering The Tribe Message-ID: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239633075565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull >From JPost Gathering The Tribe The entrance to Casa Shalom, the country's foremost center for Marrano-Anusim studies, is almost as well concealed as the secret Jews it researches. Located in the pastoral village of Gan Yavne, not far from Ashdod, the humble entrance - down several steps and behind one of the well-kept villas - gives little indication to the treasures it holds. Gloria and Leslie Mound at Casa Shalom in Gan Yavne. Photo: Ruth Eglash "This used to be a car port where I kept my washing machine," admits British-born Gloria Mound, who founded the center with her husband Leslie, when the two made aliya 24 years ago. "My son converted it into an office for us; we had no choice because our library just kept on growing and there were so many people requesting our research." Mound is referring to the center's more than 2,000 books, 5,000 documents and hundreds of testimonies, artifacts and photographs all telling the story of the Jews who either converted to Christianity or fled from Spain and Portugal during the Inquisition more than 600 years ago. While some stayed in the Mediterranean area, others settled as far afield as Newfoundland, Cuba, Jamaica and the Philippines. As we walk in through the narrow doorway, Mound, 79, points out some of the institute's highlights. Mainly the very valuable book collection that contains perhaps the best clues to the mysteries behind the world's secret Jews, who are referred to in a wide variety of ways from Marranos, Anusim and Conversos to Islanders, Chuetas and Cryptos, but in essence are the people who kept their Jewish identity so well hidden that even today it is a struggle for some of them to be open about who they really are. As well as researching their origins, migratory paths, customs and practices for the past 45 years, Mound, who works on a strictly voluntary basis, is also tireless advocate for helping those "lost" Jews find their way back into the fold and navigate through Israel's secular and religious bureaucracy to make aliya. "I really believe that there is a Jewish soul, though I'm not sure exactly what that it is," says Mound, who became a research fellow in the Department of Hispanics at the University of Glasgow in 1988. "It's something that makes an ordinary, even nonreligious Jew connect straight away with a complete stranger and know instinctively that he is Jewish." ... Click on the link for the rest of this article - http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239633075565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/73da7571/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 12272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/73da7571/attachment.obj From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 15 11:57:38 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:57:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sandra, I have not been able to keep up with all the emails, so am just now catching up. The first thing I want to say is, DON'T GIVE UP!!!! We are all in this together, and truly, everything will be alright! In fact, it's better than alright, it's great! HaShem never promised us that coming together after some 2,700 years of being lost even to ourselves would be an easy thing to do, and I truly believe that it is the delight of His heart that we tenaciously hold fast our convictions until we feel the release to move in any direction. That's just being honorable. We tend to lay ourselves bare in this dialogue, and that can be really rough on our hearts sometimes, but it's OK - we've all been there, and we all hurt from time to time. You've said nothing at which any of us will take offense, so don't worry about it for another second! Dialoguing is hard, especially when we are trying to find our way in pleasing our Creator. Thankfully, He cuts us a lot more slack than we do ourselves!!! He is concerned about those things which concern us, and He will gently lead us into His Ways and His Purposes. We are living in a Time when it is His distinct Purpose for us to come together again. The only requirements to getting there are to keep our eyes focused on His Word - His precious Torah, and not give up on each other!!! I wish you could meet Betty pey al pey (face to face). You would see the intense concern and love in her eyes as she listens to you and tries to reflect how best to help you, while still staying true to what she believes. I can promise you she took no offense, but like you, had to stay true to her convictions before HaShem. And like she said, there is only one thing upon which we ALL agree here, and that is wanting with every fiber of our beings to find our Father's Way and to please Him. So it's OK to say, "I personally don't think this or that is right before G-d, and this is why............" So many times we are reading what another is writing here and remembering when we too were thinking the exact same thing! And of course it is our duty to speak concerning His Word, when we believe that someone is missing His express Directions. Ezekiel tells us that we are guilty of another man's blood if we fail to speak when we believe he is missing it. While our words may not resonate with the other person at the time, we are still obligated to speak. Sometimes we are misunderstanding what the other is trying to say, and sometimes, we just have to agree to disagree until HaShem brings us together in understanding. This is making me smile to say, but I don't think you could find a real people-pleaser in the crowd!!!! We love each other, but HaShem is the Only One we want to please. I'm like you in that I want to try to literally do what He says to do, and I can't change until He gives me a different understanding. That's not a bad thing and it's good to talk about it - and even to disagree about it with each other. Sometimes we benefit more from those disagreements than we possibly could have learned in 20 years of perfect harmony!!!!! So don't worry. It's going to happen. We are permitted to disagree, and even to feel bad, sad, mad, etc., but we must continue to strive to come together in following hard after the One True G-d of our ancestors, Abraham Isaac and Jacob. So be strengthened, and encouraged, determining to keep putting one foot in front of the other to follow Him. Love to you, Pat From: Sandra Inglis Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/3401493e/attachment.html From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Wed Apr 15 16:44:00 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:44:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! References: <041520091353.3725.49E5E6E30007648C00000E8D22230680329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <00b501c9be13$4a28be50$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> Dear Sandra: I agree with all that say for U to stay here. As I mentioned before, if we do not have disagreements, we wouldn't be learning anything, cause everthing would be rosie and nice, so to speak. Controversy brings us to study and prove what is right. Two well dressed young men rang the bell about an hour ago and wanted me to come to there church and learn there beliefs. Because they have " the truth." After asking them questions and of course , giving my opinion of things, they left still wanting me to join them but I declined. When returning into my house , the first thing my wife said was: "I bet they are sorry they stopped here to meet you". Maybe not though. I did give them something to think about. Dick L ----- Original Message ----- From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Sandra, I know that you addressed this to Betty and I'm sure she will respond as soon as she can, but I feel I need to respond as well. Please don't take offense to the responses you received to your original comments. As Marvin said, dialoging over email is particularly difficult because it is hard to gauge each others emotional content. I for one was trying very hard not to be critical while explaining that the folks on this list are not attempting to force Judiasm into a new mold, only trying to understand where thier walks are taking them. I can assure you that no-one on this list agrees 100% with anyone else about anything. But that's the purpose of dialogue, to learn how to disagree with each other respectfully and learn from each other in the process. If I misunderstood your original comments, I humbly apologize. By all means we are very interested in learning about your beliefs, you may be surprised to find that there are others here that share some of them. I had no intention of causing you to doubt your place here. Please reconsider your decision. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Sandra Inglis" : -------------- Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/82611222/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Wed Apr 15 16:50:21 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 07:50:21 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] DO YOU KNOW HOW TO BE A MOTHER? Message-ID: <49E6569D.6010507@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/22821598/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Wed Apr 15 16:51:50 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:51:50 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue]Reply Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shalom Sandra, and I really mean that, with all my heart. "Shalom" from one sister to another. I really believe that HaShem has had a hand in bringing all of us, with our many different backgrounds and varied belief systems (which are still open to change), together. I am including you, dear Sandra in our group as well. I did not mean to hurt or offend you and I apologize that my words came across in such a way so as to make you feel like you did not "belong;" That was not my intention; you belong as much as anyone else. I will readily admit that I am at times overly sensitive (my husband tells me repeatedly that I need to grow a thicker skin.). My sensitivity has been both a blessing, and a curse. And in this case, it looks more like the later. The last thing I want to do in the entire world is to hurt someone, as I know what it feels like to be hurt and feel isolated and lonely; and I am so sorry that I hurt you. Please forgive me for that. I was just speaking from my heart, as I think were you, but perhaps it came across too strong. One of my friends in a recent email to me expressed having seen a formation of candle wax that served as a reminder of the "fragile bridges" between people and how that we need to use the "breath of G-d" in writing and responding to one another on this dialogue list. I thought that was a good analogy. (Friend, who wrote this, if you are reading this and want to clarify, please do. it was a beautiful analogy and I wanted to present it clearly). As others have already written, it is difficult to communicate via email, but with us literally spread all over the globe, what else can we do? We have this wonderful avenue that we have been given to communicate on so many levels and on so many subjects, and it is such a blessing to be able to do this.to open up our hearts and to dialogue with one another. One of my favorite passages in the Tanakh is one I sure you are familiar with. Written in the context of the last days, the prophet Malachi says, "Then they who feared HaShem spoke to one another: and HaShem hearkened and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared HaShem and took need of His Name" (Malachi 3:16). So we, who are doing dialogue with one another are taking part in fulfilling this prophecy! In my opinion, we cannot be silent; be need to speak to one another! We don't all have to agree on every point. In fact, we probably don't all agree on any point except the main thing that draws us together and that is a love and respect and desire to follow the G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Torah...We are a strange mix.this dialogue group of people.where else would you find such a large group of people, as in those associated with the SWW who having come out of Christianity, have left their traditional belief systems behind and are seeking to follow Torah at all costs? Where else would you find all kinds of Jews.affiliated and non-affiliated Jews, Jewish converts, and B'Nei Noach not only entering into dialogue with one another but also becoming a part of the SWW group? I really believe this is a phenomenon that is not just a coincidence. I believe with all my heart that HaShem has His Hand in it, and that we have been drawn together for a purpose.we can learn, study and pray together and for one another, we can agree or disagree, (and in so doing agree to disagree) as we travel along this path, but we need one another.iron after all sharpens iron.and we can know that HaShem will indeed clear things up for us in the end.and it will all be okay So please reconsider your decision, Sandra.stick with us.you don't have to be alone. With love and shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/e18534b7/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 15 17:39:21 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 18:39:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Reply Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016d01c9be1b$071215f0$153641d0$@com> Shalom Sandra! This is like the Hotel California - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave, ha, ha! I also hope you will stay. Love & Blessings, patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/a5395799/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 15 18:33:30 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 16:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <378209.53647.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> John 8:31? To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 8:32? Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." ? John 17:6? "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 17:7? Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 17:8? For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Sandra Inglis wrote: From: Sandra Inglis Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 5:52 AM Shalom Betty, ? I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. ? It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty,?what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. ? I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. ? I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. ? I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. ? What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. ? It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us?the truth. ? I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that? because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. ? Shalom to you all. ? Sandra._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090415/27dab705/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Apr 16 02:31:23 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 00:31:23 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Gathering The Tribe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200904160731.n3G7VKRl001668@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Catherine and ALL, Thank you so much for sending this bit of "Gathering News." It is most encouraging and shows us that Hashem is gathering the outcasts of Israel from "the far corners" of the Earth. There is a midrash that says that those who are the farthest away distance-wise and close-to-the-Torah-wise will be called in first before Moshiach comes. Those who are closest will be gathered in last. The Marrano-Anusim, with the Falashas, the Abu Yudaya, and other obscure minorities, as well as us, the early riser Ten-Tribers from the Valley of Dry Bones, we are being told that the gathering is underway. This collection of stragglers, hidden people of all sorts, whom Hashem has preserved, and not let any be lost, (Amos 9:9), surely gives us a possible different interpretation of "the last shall be first and the first shall be last." Also, "the mixed multitude" leaving Egypt" can take on a different color as well. Dear Sandra, A cursory look at just the few disparate and on-the-surface dissimilar groups above, certainly represents a varied and motley crew of people from very different backgrounds with a multitude of differences in beliefs and doctrinal stances. Yet, HaShem's loving mercies have touched them all and put them all on the road to "return home." Curiously, it seems that Ezekiel 36:24-25 and 37:21-23 show a lot of us gathered into the Land first, and then are we cleansed of all sorts of detestable things we and our generations have defiled ourselves with. It seems we will be Hashem's captive audience at that time, and we will not be able to run away ideologically. The sheer fact that this motley collection of the "two families of Israel" will be in one place will put us into a listening mode..... finally. My guess is that "Shema Israel" will not have to be said to often then. Till that time, we can work on ourselves with His help, asking "The Revealer of Mysteries" for tikkuns,/ corrections, and direction re various tasks we have to do as "first risers." We will also have to work on discussing all these topics and we can do to move in the same direction, i.e. coming into compliance with the eternal Covenant. As such, it seems to me that you meet the qualifications to be in this "motley crew" of rag-tag fellow travelers moving in the same direction: i.e. homeward to the One who called Abraham, who saved Isaac and who directed and renamed Jacob to be "Yisrael," Prevailer with G-d." You and all of us are identifying as their "children" and are moving in that direction. It seems to me and my guess is that many others do likewise on this list, that you too are seeking the Truth to set us free. I did not welcome you to this group, and I welcome you now, though belatedly. Please stay with us, and strengthen our numbers. Jacob tells us: "Gather yourselves together." Jeremiah tells us the same. The heart-to-heart letters to you tell us the same. We have to do better than our [generational] fathers whose sins we are called to confess. We are also called that the our true fathers, ["the Avot," the fathers in our faith], may realize their aspirations through us, the "children's children," living at the end of the age, (Mal. 3:24). That is the "remembering the Torah of Moses, the Covenant at Horeb, with the statutes and the judgments," (Mal. 3:22). It seems to me that you want to do that and you are doing that. Your zeal is testimony to that. Welcome to this group and please "prevail" with us and prevail along with us in our quest homeward. Shalom, Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." Ps. May we be cleansed of the "spirit of strife and disunity" that prevailed among us at the destruction of both Temples. At 07:46 AM 4/15/2009, you wrote: >http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239633075565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull > > From JPost > >Gathering The Tribe > >The entrance to Casa Shalom, the country's foremost center for >Marrano-Anusim studies, is almost as well concealed as the secret >Jews it researches. Located in the pastoral village of Gan Yavne, >not far from Ashdod, the humble entrance - down several steps and >behind one of the well-kept villas - gives little indication to the >treasures it holds. >Gloria and Leslie Mound at... > > >Gloria and Leslie Mound at Casa Shalom in Gan Yavne. >Photo: Ruth Eglash > >"This used to be a car port where I kept my washing machine," admits >British-born Gloria Mound, who founded the center with her husband >Leslie, when the two made aliya 24 years ago. "My son converted it >into an office for us; we had no choice because our library just >kept on growing and there were so many people requesting our research." > >Mound is referring to the center's more than 2,000 books, 5,000 >documents and hundreds of testimonies, artifacts and photographs all >telling the story of the Jews who either converted to Christianity >or fled from Spain and Portugal during the Inquisition more than 600 >years ago. While some stayed in the Mediterranean area, others >settled as far afield as Newfoundland, Cuba, Jamaica and the Philippines. > >As we walk in through the narrow doorway, Mound, 79, points out some >of the institute's highlights. Mainly the very valuable book >collection that contains perhaps the best clues to the mysteries >behind the world's secret Jews, who are referred to in a wide >variety of ways from Marranos, Anusim and Conversos to Islanders, >Chuetas and Cryptos, but in essence are the people who kept their >Jewish identity so well hidden that even today it is a struggle for >some of them to be open about who they really are. > >As well as researching their origins, migratory paths, customs and >practices for the past 45 years, Mound, who works on a strictly >voluntary basis, is also tireless advocate for helping those "lost" >Jews find their way back into the fold and navigate through Israel's >secular and religious bureaucracy to make aliya. > >"I really believe that there is a Jewish soul, though I'm not sure >exactly what that it is," says Mound, who became a research fellow >in the Department of Hispanics at the University of Glasgow in 1988. >"It's something that makes an ordinary, even nonreligious Jew >connect straight away with a complete stranger and know >instinctively that he is Jewish." ... > > > >Click on the link for the rest of this article - >http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239633075565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/65872a1e/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Apr 16 03:39:56 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:39:56 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FYI] Durban II In-Reply-To: <49E4FD2E.20808@westnet.com.au> References: <49E4FD2E.20808@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <200904160839.n3G8dnGm021726@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> May Issachar's donkey kick the daylights out of them, may Judah's lion bite their heads off, may Benjamin's wolf tear their guts out, may Dan's serpent bite them, may Ephraim's ox and Menashe's buffalo and Asher's unicorn gore them... and their hateful imaginations.... May HaShem save and bless Canada, Italy and Israel. Like the Danes did during the Nazi persecution, may our delegates (should they go at all or not go at all) wear sewn-on yellow cloth "Jude" stars of David, and may they denounce these despicable Amalekite murderers for what they are... perhaps we can send suggestions to the President and the State Department to that effect... even if they do not listen, we have done what we should do, to denounce these horrors and abominations.... and be a witness to them. "Zachor Amalek!!!" Steve Can somebody please find out the addresses to write so we can tell them to wear "Jude" stars of David, while they denounce these fiends? Thanks. At 02:16 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: >Shalom John, > >my hunch is that it will turn into a "hatefest" irrespective of the >manifesto lingo. > >Amalek is alive and well, the wolves are sharpening their >knives........ but Yitzchak ( he WILL laugh) will have the last laugh. > >Is wolf meat kosher ? > >Shalom v'Ahavah >JOE. > > >US still not happy with 'Durban II' draft > > > >By HILARY LEILA KRIEGER, TOVAH LAZAROFF >AND ALLISON HOFFMAN > > > >The United States welcomed changes made to the draft document for >the United Nations' anti-racism conference starting Monday in Geneva >but indicated they were not sufficient for the US to change its >position and attend the event, according to a statement released late Monday. > > >"Substantial improvements have been made, including shortening the >document, removing all language that singled out any one country or >conflict, and removing language that embraced the concept of >'defamation of religion' and that demanded reparations for slavery," >said State Department Acting Spokesman Robert Wood in the statement, >referring to earlier objections >including undue focus on Israel. "There remain, however, elements of >the current draft text that continue to pose significant concerns." > >The statement, however, held out the possibility that the United >States could "re-engage the conference process with the hope of arriving at a >conference document that we can support" if additional changes were made. > >These include dropping its reaffirmation of the "flawed" document >that resulted from the first such UN World Conference Against Racism, held in >Durban, South Africa in 2001. Israel has been particularly troubled >by the reaffirmation of the earlier document because of language >singling out and criticizing the Jewish state, though all other >language that referenced Israel has now been removed from the 2009 text. > >The wrangling over the contents of the draft outcome document for >the Durban review could continue throughout the week, leaving the US >presence up in the air until right before the conference begins. > >Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva Roni Leshno Yaar >told The Jerusalem Post , "We are still very far from closure on >this business." > > > >The last planning session for the conference ends on Friday, April >17, just three days before the event opens on Monday, April 20. > >"We will continue with this game until the very last day and hour >before the conference," he said. > >In anticipation of the State Department statement, and amidst >lingering concerns that the US would participate in the Geneva >meeting, several Jewish >groups and members of Congress released statements calling on the >Obama administration to refuse to participate rather than attend and >confer legitimacy on the event. Israel, Canada and Italy have >already said they will boycott the conference. > >"The latest conference working group draft statement is still >fundamentally unacceptable. The very first clause reaffirms the >hate-filled declarations of the 2001 Durban Conference, which >singled out only one country in the world for condemnation - >Israel," wrote Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Illinois) and Shelley Berkley >(D-Nevada) in a letter Monday to US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. > >When the United States and Italy followed Israel and Canada's lead, >and other European countries threatened to boycott the event as >well, steps were taken to amend the draft text of the conference >document to stem the growing swell of opponents. > >In addition to those changes not going far enough, Israel is also >concerned that the event will replicate the virulent anti-Semitic >atmosphere of the 2001 United Nations World Conference Against >Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. >Israel and the US walked out of that conference in protest, though >the European Union remained. > >News Monday that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who seeks to >annihilate Israel, had formally announced his intention to attend the >anti-racism conference only fed those fears that Durban II would be >a repeat of the 2001 event. > >Ahmadinejad's decision to come has complicated the issue, said >Leshno Yaar, adding that the Iranian president was not coming to >praise Western democracies. Now there are more questions on the >agenda, Leshno Yaar noted: If those democracies attend, will they >also listen to his speech or will they walk out? How will they sit >in the room while Ahmadinejad is speaking against them and against Israel? > >The issue here goes beyond the text to the overall atmosphere of >hatred that can be created, said Leshno Yaar. > >In 2001, the worst anti-Semitism came from the forums of the >non-governmental organizations that met on the sidelines of the >anti-racism conference. > >Already in advance of Durban II, a two-day anti-Israel NGO >conference is scheduled to meet on April 18 and 19, called "The >Israel Review Conference." An anti-Israel rally is also scheduled in >Geneva for April 18. > >The American Jewish Committee sent a letter to the Obama >administration last week opposing participation in the conference, >given not just the text of the current documents, but the tenor of >the negotiations on the text over the past several months. > >"As far as the official conference is concerned, we are calling on >the governments, including the US administration, not to participate," said AJC >associate director of international affairs Aaron Jacob, a former >diplomat in Israel's UN mission. He said that even if references to >the resolutions >adopted in 2001 were removed from the current crop of draft >documents, there would still be a problem of "the environment" of >negotiations over the past >few months, in which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been cast >as a racial issue rather than a strictly political one. > >Jacob said AJC had not received a response from the US State Department. > >The AJC was nervous about US participation because the >administration's February decision to withdraw left the door open >for America to change its mind if satisfactory changes were made to the text. > >"We're hopeful that the administration would continue to remain firm >on principle and stand by allies like Canada, Italy and Israel," said David >Michaels, director of UN affairs for B'nai B'rith. > >Michaels said B'nai B'rith would send a delegation to Geneva to >monitor the proceedings whatever the final document drafts included. > >"We're not there to vote or to provide cover or legitimacy to >developments," Michaels told the Post. > >"Frankly we're there to show solidarity with Israel and with the >Jewish community - we won't be absent should the same players, >whether member state representatives or [NGO] representatives come >to this forum with signs that equate the Star of David with a >swastika," Michaels added. > > >-- >John C. > >"Be excellent to each other!" >Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/0ec147a2/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 16 07:22:54 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 05:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: <378209.53647.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <888142.76408.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Psalms 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your Torah is the truth. ? John 17:17 Sanctify them through Your truth: Your word is truth. ? John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Are you a king then? Yeshua?answered, You say that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness?to the truth. Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. ? ? --- On Wed, 4/15/09, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: From: W Glenn Chatterton Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 6:33 PM John 8:31? To the Jews who had believed him, Yeshua said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 8:32? Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." ? John 17:6? "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 17:7? Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 17:8? For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Sandra Inglis wrote: From: Sandra Inglis Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 5:52 AM Shalom Betty, ? I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. ? It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty,?what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. ? I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. ? I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. ? I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. ? What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. ? It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us?the truth. ? I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that? because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. ? Shalom to you all. ? Sandra._______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/a6be54e3/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 16 08:44:51 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 06:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Clarification of Intent In-Reply-To: <888142.76408.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <537469.57461.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All, ? A wise one has rightly coached me that?I should also provide a few words elaborating on my intent with the previously supplied verses. ? My intention was to offer hope that we may in fact find comfort in the promise that YHVH will lead us into His truth through our study of His Torah. Were it not for this glorious promise, then?we might all succumb to dispair. My desire was to inspire us to take heart, and embrace the joy this promise offers. ? Thank you for your patience, ? Glenn --- On Thu, 4/16/09, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: From: W Glenn Chatterton Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:22 AM ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/6a882619/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 16 09:10:03 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:10:03 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] FYI Message-ID: <041620091410.29152.49E73C3A0007437B000071E022218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Mitchell's Message: 'We Want a PA State' by Hana Levi Julian (IsraelNN.com) United States Middle East envoy George Mitchell warned Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman on Thursday that America will not budge from its commitment to carving out a new Palestinian Authority state from within Israel's current borders. Mitchell, who arrived in Israel Wednesday evening, made the comment after he met for the first time with Lieberman in his new role as foreign minister. Lieberman raised eyebrows earlier in the month when he stated that the Netanyahu government would not be bound by decisions made in Annapolis in November 2007, noting they had never been ratified by the government, nor had they been approved by the Knesset. "The U.S. policy favors a two-state solution, which would have a Palestinian state living in peace alongside with the Jewish State of Israel," Mitchell told reporters following the meeting. Interior Minister Eli Yishai commented that regardless of what the new administration of U.S. President Barack Obama might want, Israel could not be forced down a path that might be unrealistic. "The preferable course of diplomatic action at this time is two economies for two peoples, and not two states for two peoples," Yishai told reporters. "The American emissary also knows that forcing the region into virtual diplomatic discourse will only breed the opposite results." The U.S. envoy is scheduled for meetings throughout the day with Israeli officials; Wednesday night he met with Defense Minister Ehud Barak, and before meeting with Lieberman had already held talks with President Shimon Peres. Peres, too, informed MItchell that while Israel has always been interested in achieving peace in the region, it would not be at the expense of her own security. The issue of weighing Israel's security against America's interests in the region is not new; it has also become an increasingly sensitive topic in high-level discussions over how to deal with the Iranian nuclear development threat. The Hebrew-language daily Yediot Acharanot reported Thursday that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel told an American Jewish leader that a PA state would be forced down Israel's throat by the end of Obama's term, regardless of which government rules. "In the next four years, there will be a final status agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, based on 'two states for two peoples,' and we couldn't care less who the prime minister is," Emanuel was quoted as saying. The newspaper also reported that the Obama administration that the U.S. would not help Israel neutralize the Iranian nuclear threat unless Jerusalem agrees to a disengagement in Judea and Samaria. The paper reported on a "Bushehr for Yitzhar" plan -- meaning the U.S. would swap its help in neutralizing the Bushehr nuclear reactor and other installations in exchange for Israel destroying the Samarian Jewish community of Yitzhar and approximately 170 other neighboring towns. Despite Israel's urgent warnings that time is running out, the U.S. has committed itself to an unlimited time frame on negotiations with the Islamic Republic over its uranium enrichment program, even as it continues apace. Israeli and other Western intelligence officials are convinced that Iran is working toward development of an atomic weapon, despite its denials. Mitchell is slated to meet later in the day with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Opposition leader MK Tzipi Livni. On Friday he will head to Ramallah for talks with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and PA Prime Minister Salam Fayyad before moving on to Cairo and Riyadh. Iran Protests and Prepares for Israeli Threats by Hillel Fendel (IsraelNN.com) UPI reports not only that Israel will bomb Iran later this year, but also that ?many now assume? that Iran will then retaliate against Persian Gulf states such as Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Gulf States Fear Iranian Attack The UPI report states that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, and Oman have deployed Patriot missile batteries along the Persian Gulf to deflect incoming Iranian missiles. The members of the Gulf Cooperation Council are ?getting ready for what many now assume will be retaliation from Iran following Israeli bombing of Iran's nuclear facilities later this year,? UPI reports. It has been reported in the past that Iran has trained secret networks of agents in the Gulf states to attack Western interests and incite civil unrest in the event that the U.S. or Israel attacks it. Sleeper cells of teachers, doctors and nurses trained by Iran are ready to be activated when necessary, it is claimed. ?Such a scenario,? the Telegraph recently reported, ?would bring chaos to the Gulf, one of the few areas of the Middle East that remains prosperous and has largely pro-Western governments.? Other reports say that Iran would launch a ?missile blitz? against the Gulf states if attacked by Israel or the U.S. Qatar, Bahrain and Oman all host important American military bases as well as British forces. US: Gates Says Israeli Attack Won?t Work At the same time, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates expressed concern about an Israeli attack and tried to downplay its effectiveness. Gates told a group of Marine Corps students this week that an Israeli attack against Iran?s nuclear program would probably delay Tehran's nuclear program by only one to three years. He added that such an attack would "cement [Iran?s] determination to have a nuclear program, and also build into the whole country an undying hatred of whoever hits them.? Iran has registered a protest against perceived Israeli threats to attack it. Iranian Ambassador to the United Nations Mohammad Khazaee sent a letter on Tuesday to the UN Security Council denouncing Israel?s "unlawful and insolent" threats. He said the threats violated international law and the U.N. Charter, and urged the UN to respond. Obama vs. Yesha Israel largest newspaper, Yediot Acharonot, reported on Thursday that the Obama Administration is hinting that if Israel gives up Judea and Samaria (Yesha), the U.S. would help in dismantling the Iranian nuclear threat. The paper reports that Administration officials are speaking of a ?Bushehr in exchange for Yitzhar? plan, implying that if Israel gives up Yitzhar and the other approximately 170 Jewish towns in Judea and Samaria, the U.S. will help in neutralizing Iran?s Bushehr and other nuclear plants. Obama vs. Israel The paper further reports that Rahm Emanuel, Obama?s hard-hitting Jewish Chief of Staff, recently told a Jewish leader in Washington, ?In the next four years, there will be a final status agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, based on ?two states for two peoples,? and we couldn?t care less who the Prime Minister is.? Durban II: One Step Forward, or 2 Steps Back? by Hana Levi Julian and Avraham Zuroff (IsraelNN.com) The United States has clarified its stance and stated firmly that unless there are substantial changes in the conference document, America will not attend next week's United Nations "Durban II" racism conference. "There needs to be a viable text that... must not reaffirm in toto the 2001 Durban Declaration and Program of Action," U.S. State Department spokesman Robert Wood told reporters on Wednesday. "We have some concerns in the text about references that support restrictions on freedom of expression. At this moment, we have not seen enough progress. Although the document has come a long way, we're not there yet," Wood added. Concern in the Israeli sector over the text, meanwhile, is growing. Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, Roni Leshno Ya'ar, said in an interview published Thursday in The Jerusalem Post, "The new text is not an improvement. If anything, it is worse than the previous text because it includes a reference to foreign occupation, which in the diplomatic world is code for Israel." The 17-page document issued on Wednesday reaffirms the resolutions of the first World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, which was held in Durban, South Africa in August 2001. An unnamed rights activist quoted by Haaretz said that the new text has dropped all overt references to Israel, as well as the reference to "defamation of religion" insisted on by Islamic nations. United Nations officials were hoping the changes would be enough to draw the United States back to the conference, as well as the other Western nations that have vowed to boycott the gathering. Canada was the first Western nation to announce it would not attend the conference, followed by Israel, Italy and the United States. Australia announced that unless the text of the Durban II document was significantly changed before the conference began, it, too would avoid the gathering. A U.N. spokeswoman promised on Wednesday "Definitely we will not allow what happened in Durban to happen here." Marie Heuze, head of public information at the U.N. European headquarters in Geneva, told a reporter, "While respecting freedom of speech, within the precincts of the United Nations we will be vigilant to prevent hate speech, verbal abuse and insults against people of different races and creeds." Parallel Process in Geneva Amos Herman, chairman of the Jewish Agency's Task Force Against Anti-Semitism and head of the agency's Education Committee, told Israel National News on Thursday that he is pessimistic about the chances that the conference will accomplish its stated goals. Herman said while the newly modified revisions in the Durban II document do not outwardly condemn Israel for its policies towards Palestinian Authority Arabs, he feels that the incrimination is implicit, albeit masked in a diplomatic smoke screen. ?The wording was carefully chosen so as not to turn off European diplomats who would otherwise not attend the event,? Herman said. ?Specifically the NGOs were the ones that espoused anti-Israel and anti-Semitic slogans like ?Zionism equals Racism?, and ?Israel is an Apartheid State??, said Herman, who expects a repeat performance at Durban II. ?We intend to take to the streets. We decided not to give up against the possibly most anti-Semitic event of the year,? Herman said, explaining that hundreds of students among at least 1000 participants under the Jewish Agency?s umbrella will show their support for the State of Israel, and bring representatives of minority communities in Israel to show Israel?s humanitarian track record. Herman explained that out of the 1,000 delegates in the alternative plenum, half are Jews from Europe and the United States, and the other half are non-Jewish supporters of Israel. "Nothing good will come out of the conference," he said, "which will apparently gather to ratify the statements made at Durban I. With 'gentlemen' like [Libyan dictator Colonel Muammar Abu Minyar] Gaddafi and [Iran?s President Mahmoud] Ahmadinejad confirming their participation, the conference is bound to be anti-Zionist, if not anti-Jewish,? he said. Herman will represent the World Zionist Organization and Jewish Agency for Israel at a parallel event opposite the United Nations Headquarters in Geneva concurrently with the conference, which begins April 21. He added that Libya, Iran and Cuba are expected to claim that discrimination, racism and apartheid are to be found mainly in the Middle East, and particularly in Israel. ?We?re presenting an alternative conference opposite the event in order to draw the international media towards us.? Herman said that the Jewish Agency, acting as a steering committee together with the U.N. Watch, which conceived the idea, will ?show that Israel is not the cause of the problem of the oppression of the Tutsis, Iranian opposition, and citizens? rights in Libya.? -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/564fdbca/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Thu Apr 16 09:20:37 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:20:37 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Clarification of Intent Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification Glenn. I understood where you were coming from. When viewed in light of the Torah these references make a lot of sense and greatly encourage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/7510279a/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Apr 16 11:43:55 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 12:43:55 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FYI] Durban II In-Reply-To: <200904160839.n3G8dnGm021726@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> References: <49E4FD2E.20808@westnet.com.au> <200904160839.n3G8dnGm021726@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: YES, ZACHOR AMALEK!!! I'm not sure how to reach them, Steve, but perhaps the link below will help us. Like you, am praying that our Tribesmen will rise up against the hated Amalekites, and stand fast with their faithful brother, Judah! http://www.state.gov/ Pat From: Steve Mathe Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 4:39 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Dialogue] FYI] Durban II May Issachar's donkey kick the daylights out of them, may Judah's lion bite their heads off, may Benjamin's wolf tear their guts out, may Dan's serpent bite them, may Ephraim's ox and Menashe's buffalo and Asher's unicorn gore them... and their hateful imaginations.... May HaShem save and bless Canada, Italy and Israel. Like the Danes did during the Nazi persecution, may our delegates (should they go at all or not go at all) wear sewn-on yellow cloth "Jude" stars of David, and may they denounce these despicable Amalekite murderers for what they are... perhaps we can send suggestions to the President and the State Department to that effect... even if they do not listen, we have done what we should do, to denounce these horrors and abominations.... and be a witness to them. "Zachor Amalek!!!" Steve Can somebody please find out the addresses to write so we can tell them to wear "Jude" stars of David, while they denounce these fiends? Thanks. At 02:16 PM 4/14/2009, you wrote: Shalom John, my hunch is that it will turn into a "hatefest" irrespective of the manifesto lingo. Amalek is alive and well, the wolves are sharpening their knives........ but Yitzchak ( he WILL laugh) will have the last laugh. Is wolf meat kosher ? Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. US still not happy with 'Durban II' draft By HILARY LEILA KRIEGER, TOVAH LAZAROFF AND ALLISON HOFFMAN The United States welcomed changes made to the draft document for the United Nations' anti-racism conference starting Monday in Geneva but indicated they were not sufficient for the US to change its position and attend the event, according to a statement released late Monday. "Substantial improvements have been made, including shortening the document, removing all language that singled out any one country or conflict, and removing language that embraced the concept of 'defamation of religion' and that demanded reparations for slavery," said State Department Acting Spokesman Robert Wood in the statement, referring to earlier objections including undue focus on Israel. "There remain, however, elements of the current draft text that continue to pose significant concerns." The statement, however, held out the possibility that the United States could "re-engage the conference process with the hope of arriving at a conference document that we can support" if additional changes were made. These include dropping its reaffirmation of the "flawed" document that resulted from the first such UN World Conference Against Racism, held in Durban, South Africa in 2001. Israel has been particularly troubled by the reaffirmation of the earlier document because of language singling out and criticizing the Jewish state, though all other language that referenced Israel has now been removed from the 2009 text. The wrangling over the contents of the draft outcome document for the Durban review could continue throughout the week, leaving the US presence up in the air until right before the conference begins. Israel's Ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva Roni Leshno Yaar told The Jerusalem Post , "We are still very far from closure on this business." The last planning session for the conference ends on Friday, April 17, just three days before the event opens on Monday, April 20. "We will continue with this game until the very last day and hour before the conference," he said. In anticipation of the State Department statement, and amidst lingering concerns that the US would participate in the Geneva meeting, several Jewish groups and members of Congress released statements calling on the Obama administration to refuse to participate rather than attend and confer legitimacy on the event. Israel, Canada and Italy have already said they will boycott the conference. "The latest conference working group draft statement is still fundamentally unacceptable. The very first clause reaffirms the hate-filled declarations of the 2001 Durban Conference, which singled out only one country in the world for condemnation - Israel," wrote Rep. Mark Kirk (R-Illinois) and Shelley Berkley (D-Nevada) in a letter Monday to US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. When the United States and Italy followed Israel and Canada's lead, and other European countries threatened to boycott the event as well, steps were taken to amend the draft text of the conference document to stem the growing swell of opponents. In addition to those changes not going far enough, Israel is also concerned that the event will replicate the virulent anti-Semitic atmosphere of the 2001 United Nations World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance. Israel and the US walked out of that conference in protest, though the European Union remained. News Monday that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who seeks to annihilate Israel, had formally announced his intention to attend the anti-racism conference only fed those fears that Durban II would be a repeat of the 2001 event. Ahmadinejad's decision to come has complicated the issue, said Leshno Yaar, adding that the Iranian president was not coming to praise Western democracies. Now there are more questions on the agenda, Leshno Yaar noted: If those democracies attend, will they also listen to his speech or will they walk out? How will they sit in the room while Ahmadinejad is speaking against them and against Israel? The issue here goes beyond the text to the overall atmosphere of hatred that can be created, said Leshno Yaar. In 2001, the worst anti-Semitism came from the forums of the non-governmental organizations that met on the sidelines of the anti-racism conference. Already in advance of Durban II, a two-day anti-Israel NGO conference is scheduled to meet on April 18 and 19, called "The Israel Review Conference." An anti-Israel rally is also scheduled in Geneva for April 18. The American Jewish Committee sent a letter to the Obama administration last week opposing participation in the conference, given not just the text of the current documents, but the tenor of the negotiations on the text over the past several months. "As far as the official conference is concerned, we are calling on the governments, including the US administration, not to participate," said AJC associate director of international affairs Aaron Jacob, a former diplomat in Israel's UN mission. He said that even if references to the resolutions adopted in 2001 were removed from the current crop of draft documents, there would still be a problem of "the environment" of negotiations over the past few months, in which the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been cast as a racial issue rather than a strictly political one. Jacob said AJC had not received a response from the US State Department. The AJC was nervous about US participation because the administration's February decision to withdraw left the door open for America to change its mind if satisfactory changes were made to the text. "We're hopeful that the administration would continue to remain firm on principle and stand by allies like Canada, Italy and Israel," said David Michaels, director of UN affairs for B'nai B'rith. Michaels said B'nai B'rith would send a delegation to Geneva to monitor the proceedings whatever the final document drafts included. "We're not there to vote or to provide cover or legitimacy to developments," Michaels told the Post. "Frankly we're there to show solidarity with Israel and with the Jewish community - we won't be absent should the same players, whether member state representatives or [NGO] representatives come to this forum with signs that equate the Star of David with a swastika," Michaels added. -- John C. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/e8005e47/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 16:12:42 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Celente Message-ID: <250936.53711.qm@web37301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is really happening. It's a real movement. I urge everyone to look this guy up, and take what you will from him. I've followed him for some time. He studies the past, so he understands present events. Cody Celente Calls for Revolution as the Only Solution Posted By admin On April 15, 2009 @ 12:27 pm In Featured Stories | 317 Comments The Yonkers Tribune April 15, 2009 ?The Tea Parties and Tax Protests sprouting across the nation, which we had predicted, are harbingers of revolution,? said Gerald Celente, Director of The Trends Research Institute. ?But they are not enough. Much stronger and directed action is required. Our call for ?Revolution? will galvanize the people, destroy the corrupt ruling systems, and produce a prosperous and more just nation.? Gerald Celente. The Revolution Celente proposes is unique in concept and bold in execution. It is about a lot more than just ?taxation without representation.? ?Nothing short of total repudiation of our entrenched systems can rescue America,? said Celente. ?We are under the control of a two-headed, one party political system. Wall Street controls our financial lives; the media manipulates our minds. These systems cannot be changed from within. There is no alternative. Without a revolution, these institutions will bankrupt the country, keep fighting failed wars, start new ones, and hold us in perpetual intellectual subjugation.? The country is restless, and ripe for radical reform. There is no doubt protests will proliferate and intensify. In response, the government will call out the troops and bring in the police. They will use the Patriot Act to silence, detain, harass, persecute and prosecute groups and individuals exercising their Constitutional rights. But Celente?s Revolution need not degenerate into violence or open warfare. ?Intellectual Revolution? ?I am calling for an ?Intellectual Revolution?. I ask American citizens to free their minds from the tyranny of ?Dumb Think.? This is a revolution about thinking - not manning the barricades. It?s about brain power - not brute force.? For society to survive and grow, it must wake up and grow up. Americans must acknowledge what their opinions are based on, who they listen to ? and why. What are America?s prime information sources? CNN, ?The most trusted name in news?? Fox, ?Fair and balanced?? CNBC, ?First in Business Worldwide?? The New York Times, ?All the news that?s fit to print?? Who do the people listen to? A closed circuit of familiar faces guaranteed to take predictable positions. Authorities on nothing, yet pronouncing upon everything; a cadre of media aristocrats, pretending they?re the people?s voice. A d v e r t i s e m e n t Bill O?Reilly, Steven Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, Keith Olbermann, Sean Hannity, Jon Stewart, Chris Matthews, Jim Cramer, Joe Scarborough, Anderson Cooper, Bill Maher. TV tough guys, broadcast big mouths and Beltway blowhards have now been joined by featherweight comics throwing powder puff punches at sitting targets. This new addition to the critical debate is celebrated by the world?s leading financial newspaper: Wall Street Riveted by Comedy Clash Financial Times, 13 March 2009 ?A showdown between a comedian who has become one of America?s most challenging commentators and a news commentator known for his comedic antics has shown the brightest spotlight on the media?s market coverage since the financial crisis began. On Thursday night, two cable television celebrities squared off as Jon Stewart, host of The Daily Show ? on Comedy Central ? confronted Jim Cramer ? star of CNBC?s Mad Money programme.? Without a hint of irony, FT bestows the title of highest American intellectual common denominator upon a clown. A pencil throwing, screaming, wryly grimacing professional comedian has become ?? one of America?s most challenging commentators?? ?Wall Street riveted by comedy clash?? ?The brightest spotlight on the media?s market coverage?? With the world financial markets in collapse, this rivets Wall Street? Nearly two years into the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, this shines as ?the brightest spotlight?? >From Wall Street, comedy moves to the White House. President Obama made history using comic Jay Leno?s Tonight Show as a platform to peddle his policies. World shaping decisions are packaged in sound bites and pitched by the nation?s Showman-in-Chief. There is no time or place for debate or discussion. It?s all entertainment. ?The ?Intellectual Revolution? must be waged on the battlefield of the mind,? said Celente. ?Americans are doomed unless they kick the junk news habit, deprogram themselves from celebrity worship, refuse to blindly follow political leaders and question all ideological dogmas ? especially their own. ?For the revolution to succeed, people must repudiate the one-headed, two party system, and learn to think for themselves,? said Celente. While the corporate-owned mainstream media and the government still control the broad avenues of news and information, only willing and lazy minds need be held hostage to it. The Internet world is awash in data, facts, analyses and opinions (independent and mainstream) for all to access and assess. Think for Yourself. The ?Intellectual Revolution? has begun. Trend Call-to-Action: What can you do? Participating in an April 15th tax protest may be your cup of tea. Pester your politicians. Make your voice heard, your discontent felt and your solutions known. Band with others who share similar objectives and common goals. Research related links To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Apr 16 16:43:10 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:43:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: SHEMINI Message-ID: Below is a commentary on the Torah reading. I just left work and a conversation with 2 christians trying to tell me how that Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism. When asked if Jesus came to town and said, lets go to God's house this weekend, do you think he would fill more comfortable attending a synagogue or Christian church? Without hesitation both said, A christian church!..... If it was not so sad and funny, I would be crying instead of laughing.... I remember Vendyl Jones once asked a christian, when the book of Acts says they were daily in the Temple, where do you think they were? The response, At temple Baptist!.... Hashem deliver us from ignorant people, better yet, opened their blinded eyes to the truth of your TORAH. At any rate, very good article below! Shalom, UNIVERSAL TORAH: SHEMINI By Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum Torah Reading: Parshas SHEMINI, Leviticus 9:1-11:47 Haftara: II Samuel 6:1-7:17 (Sephardi ritual: II Samuel 6:1-19). THE EIGHTH DAY The "eighth day" with which our parshah of SHEMINI opens was the first day of the month of Nissan, one year since the Exodus from Egypt. This was the day marked out for the final inauguration of the Sanctuary following seven days of consecration of Aaron and his sons for service as priests. Those seven days had started on the 23rd of the preceding month of Adar. On each of those seven days, Moses had erected the Sanctuary in order to conduct the priestly consecration rituals, in which he himself served as the "high priest", only to dismantle the Sanctuary afterwards. However, on the Eighth Day -- the first of Nissan and first day of the New Year -- the Sanctuary was left standing, so to remain for as long as the Israelites stayed in the same desert encampment. On that day Aaron and his sons fully assumed the role of priests forever after. The rabbis stated that the first day of Nissan "took ten crowns": It was (1) the first day of creation; (2) first day of the first of the months of the year; (3) the first day of the priesthood; (4) the first day of the Sanctuary service; (5) first day of the inauguration sacrifices of the princes of the twelve tribes; (6) first day for the descent of fire from heaven on the altar; (7) the first day that sacrifices were eaten; (8) the first day that all other altars (such as private altars) other than the Sanctuary altar became forbidden; (9) the first day that the Divine Presence dwelled in Israel; (10) the first day on which the priests blessed the people (Mechilta, Shemini 1). In calling this the "eighth" day, the Torah alludes to the fact that, with the inauguration of the Sanctuary, it was the day on which the Israelites completely transcended the natural order, which was brought into being through the "seven days of creation". The latter correspond to the lower seven of the ten sefirot of which the Kabbalah speaks, corresponding to the "body" (as opposed to top three, which are the "head"). As long as man does not recognize his true mission in this world and spends his life trying to satisfy only his bodily needs and desires, he is locked within nature, like an animal. However, when he embraces his destiny, willfully configuring and using the material world as a means of drawing closer to G-d, building a Sanctuary and bringing the natural, the animal, as a KORBAN, a "sacrifice" (lit. "a drawing close"), man attains a level that transcends nature. This is the eighth level, that of BINAH (the eighth Sefirah counting up from Malchut, which is the bottom Sefirah). BINAH is the "gateway" to the "head", the brain and the soul (consisting of the top three Sefirot). When we use our soul-powers -- our willpower, wisdom and understanding, to assert our control over the material and the animal, we can "pass through the gate" into the world of the spirit. This is governed by a law different from that which governs the natural order. The world of the spirit is governed by Torah law. When we pass through the gate, we can know and understand (with BINAH) that the natural order is nothing but an arena of challenge created by G-d in order for us to use it to connect back to the Source. As long as we are under the power of nature, this world stands as a barrier holding us back from G-d. But when we assert our spiritual power, this world turns into a gateway through which we can draw closer to Him. * * * THE PRICE OF CLOSENESS So great is the significance of the day of the inauguration of the Sanctuary, the day of man's birth as a spiritual being, that the Torah returns to it in several portions in Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. ("There is no 'before' and 'after' in the Torah"). In PEKUDEY at the end of Exodus, we had the account of how Moses erected the Sanctuary on 1st Nissan, drawing G-d's "cloud" to descend so that "His glory filled the Sanctuary". Our present parshah, SHEMINI, narrates how Aaron and his four sons inaugurated the Sanctuary with special sacrifices, and how G-d's fire descended onto the altar. SHEMINI continues with the dramatic story of the offering of "strange fire" in the Sanctuary by Nadav and Avihu, Aaron's first and second sons, leading to their death by fire from heaven. Finally, in NASO, second parshah of the book of Numbers, the Torah tells of the special offering of Nachshon, Prince of the tribe of Judah, on the first of Nissan, initiating the offerings of the princes of the twelve tribes, one by one on twelve consecutive days. It is one of the profound paradoxes of the Torah that this auspicious day should have been so horribly marred by the death of the two older sons of the leading protagonist in the Sanctuary, Aaron. In the world in which we live, the world of nature and separation, there is no explanation of such a tragedy. As far as this world is concerned, death is the end: how can it be good? If any meaning is to be found in such an occurrence, it can only be through "the eighth day", the level of BINAH, understanding, which is the gateway to the transcendent realm of unity, where there is no separation and no death. If closeness to G-d and entry into the realm of unity came cheap, we would not value them. They come at a price. In what currency can we pay G-d? He does not need our money, our oxen, sheep and other "sacrifices". The price is often paid in pain (LO ALENU -- not on us!!!). Pain robs man of his ability to feel comfortable in this world of separation to which he becomes so attached. Pain drives him to seek relief by trying to transcend the world. Pain is a teacher, a very harsh one. An event as great as the erection of the Sanctuary and the drawing of G-d's presence into the world could not but come at a great price. The Sanctuary "will be sanctified by My glory" (Ex. 29:3) -- "by those who are my glorified ones" (Rabbinic drush, see Rashi on Lev. 10:3, "I will be sanctified by those who are close to Me"). The price was paid by Aaron precisely because his was the pivotal role in the Sanctuary project, which is to configure this refractory material world in such a way that it becomes a vessel holding and revealing G-dliness. Aaron had all the glory and splendor of this world (HOD), as represented in his gorgeous garments. He received the choicest share of the priestly gifts and portions. All this glory had to be elevated to G-d, it could not be allowed to stay in this world and turn into self-glorification. When we use the wealth of this world for self-glorification, it turns into a golden calf. Aaron is on the very edge. He has all the glory, he wears the wealth of the world on his very person. In order to keep him from going out of his mind with pride, he is struck with a terrible blow, the loss of the flower of his children (their loss in this world, though not in the world of unity). The pain forces him to transcend the world of separation, the material world. Aaron must remain in the world of unity: he must not show mourning or rend his garments. He must stay in the Sanctuary, the Sanctuary of the soul, the world of unity: Keter-Chochmah-Binah. There, the language of our world, the world of separation and pain, does not apply. We can enter that exalted realm only through silent acceptance of G-d's decree. "And Aaron remained silent." * * * SEPARATION AND DISTINCTION Aaron and his surviving sons could not show mourning, because their role was to remain in the world of unity in order to connect others to it. But the Children of Israel had to mourn, because they are the ones who live in the world of separation from which Nadav and Avihu had been torn. It is said that the sin of Nadav and Avihu is that they wanted to dissolve the separation completely and bring the entire world back into immediate unity with G-d. They wanted to redeem evil. They wanted to break through all the barriers. They were drunk with the unity of G-d -- and they went beyond bounds until they were totally burned up inside with G-d's fire. But G-d does not want us to go altogether beyond the bounds. We may not embrace evil, for G-d created it precisely so that we should reject it despite the temptations. G-d established the world of separation and evil as an arena of challenge for man, in which he must steadily refine and elevate his earthly materialism until he turns himself into a vessel fit to receive G-d's unity. This cannot be done all at once: it must be done step by step, stage by stage. As an arena of challenge to man, the world consists of good and evil, pure and impure, holy and unholy. Man's task is to use his powers of mind and soul to discriminate between them, to embrace the good and holy while rejecting the impure and unholy. The world is a very deceptive place. The pig displays its cloven hoof as if to say, "I am pure". But the truth is that it is impure, for it does not chew its food over. It does not want to confront its food again, since it always has its nose in the filth. We cannot allow ourselves to go by appearances in this world: we have to penetrate beneath the surface. The only means we have of doing so is with G-d's Torah, the Tree of Life, which teaches the truth about good and evil in every area of life -- be it what we eat, how we do business, whom we marry and all other areas. Only with objective, outside guidance can we sort out the confusion that came from Adam's eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. When man in his arrogance thinks that he knows -- when he relies on his personal judgments about what is good and bad -- he can go terribly wrong, because there is a serpent within him, the YETZER RA, that is liable to deceive him. Making the correct distinctions in this world is at the very center of what we must accomplish here. Thus the middle letter of the entire Torah, which is in our parshah (the letter VAV -- signifying "connection" -- in the word "belly" Lev. 11:42), is in a word that alludes to the humiliation of the serpent, who was cut down to size and made to go on his belly (Gen. 3:14). Only by humiliating the serpent and rejecting evil is it possible to connect with G-d. There is no middle word in the Torah, since the total number of words in the Torah is even. The center of the Torah in terms of words comes between the words DAROSH DARASH (Lev. 10:16): "and Moses SEARCHINGLY SEARCHED". Only by searching very hard can we penetrate to the real truth! The priest is not allowed to drink when he serves in the Sanctuary. Intoxicants and instant religiosity do not bring genuine connection with G-d. Similarly, the rabbi may not drink before giving an halachic ruling. It takes sobriety to distinguish between truth and illusion. The latter half of our parshah teaches us to discriminate between pure and impure foods, while most of the remainder of the book of Leviticus is taken up with the detailed Torah code through which we separate and distinguish between good and evil in all other areas of life. Through our assiduous study of the Torah and its teachings, may we find the spiritual strength to take our destiny in our hands and rise to our true mission: "And you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, for I am holy..." (Lev. 11:44). Shabbat Shalom! Avraham Yehoshua Greenbaum -- AZAMRA INSTITUTE PO Box 50037 Jerusalem 91500 Israel Website: www.azamra.org _____________________________ Change address / Leave mailing list: http://ymlp67.com/u.php?YMLPID=gbmbwegsguwwjguhy Hosting by YourMailingListProvider From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 16 16:48:54 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:48:54 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] MASHIACH: IMMINENT The Movie Message-ID: <49E7A7C6.4020805@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/93833a68/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 17:25:27 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Israel warns of a new approach Message-ID: <358368.90575.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Israel warns of a 'new approach' in the path to peace in the Middle East By Daily Mail Reporter Last updated at 6:54 PM on 16th April 2009 Israel's foreign minister has given clear signals to the U.S. that their plans for peace with Palestinians will not include making concessions to create a new state. Avigdor Lieberman told the U.S. Middle East envoy today that trade-offs had, in the past, caused wars and said Israel needed to find a 'new approach'. But Barack Obama's envoy George Mitchell, speaking after the meeting with the Foreign Minister today, said the United States continued to support the idea of creating an independent Palestinian state. It has been the guiding principle of U.S.-backed peace efforts in recent years. Israel's Avigdor Lieberman (left) shakes hands with U.S. envoy George Mitchell before their meeting In a statement after the meeting, Liberman said: 'The historic approach has so far not brought any result or solution.' He said they would need to find a 'new approach'. He added: 'Past prime ministers were prepared to make wide-ranging concessions and the result of the Olmert-Livni government was the second Lebanon war, the operation in Gaza, severance of relations with Qatar and Mauritania, Gilad Schalit still in captivity and the peace process at a dead end.' Although Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other officials of the new government have spoken at length about the emotional and strategic ties between Israel and the United States, clear differences are emerging over the outlines for an Israeli-Palestinian peace. Ultra-nationalist Lieberman made waves after taking office last month, saying the past year of U.S.-led negotiations was no longer relevant and concessions to Palestinians only invite war. Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni thought Palestine should take control over most of the West Bank and Gaza and some Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem. But no agreement with the Palestinians was reached. Despite their efforts to exchange Palestinian prisoners for captured soldier Schalit, they failed to negotiate his release from the Hamas militants who have been holding him in Gaza for nearly three years. U.S. envoy Mitchell said after the meeting: 'U.S. policy favors - in respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - a two-state solution which will have a Palestinian state living in peace alongside the Jewish state of Israel.' Earlier, Mitchell visited President Shimon Peres, who played down differences between Jerusalem and Washington. He told the envoy: 'The policy of President Obama and his efforts for peace in this region are the same as the position of Israel.' And he played down concerns that Israel could bomb Iran's nuclear facilities if Tehran did not stop developing nuclear arms which could be turned against the Jewish state. Israel sees a nuclear Iran as the most serious threat to its existence. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel's destruction and Tehran has tested long-range missiles that could strike Israel. While not directly threatening to take out Iran's nuclear facilities, Israel has kept the military option open. To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 16 17:52:55 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:52:55 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?b?4oCr16nXldeV15DXp9eZ4oCs4oCO?= Message-ID: <49E7B6C7.6040607@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/72476752/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 16 18:37:07 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:37:07 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Counting Up : The Omer. Message-ID: <49E7C123.9030404@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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From: cody oneill Subject: [Dialogue] Celente Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 14:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Size: 10911 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/08925069/attachment.eml From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Thu Apr 16 20:02:57 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Celente Message-ID: <442695.8991.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am involved with one "We surround them" group and to some extent, 2 more. I believe that the government will put more pressure as we get louder. I know that this is not a solution. It can only postpone the inevitable. I expect the government to clamp down on all rights, and eventually declare martial law when and if they have to. the only thing we can do is prepare with the basics and plan to live with only the basics and pray. We all need to be able to hear G-d's voice so clearly we will KNOW what to do. We also need to ask ourselves what we are willing to do and what we are willing to give up to change things. The time is coming to separate the men from the boys, (ladies, present company accepted.) Betty Eddy --- On Thu, 4/16/09, cody oneill wrote: From: cody oneill Subject: [Dialogue] Celente To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 4:12 PM This is really happening.? It's a real movement.? I urge everyone to look this guy up, and take what you will from him.? I've followed him for some time.? He studies the past, so he understands present events. Cody Celente Calls for Revolution as the Only Solution Posted By admin On April 15, 2009 @ 12:27 pm In Featured Stories | 317 Comments The Yonkers Tribune April 15, 2009 ?The Tea Parties and Tax Protests sprouting across the nation, which we had predicted, are harbingers of revolution,? said Gerald Celente, Director of The Trends Research Institute.? ?But they are not enough.? Much stronger and directed action is required.? Our call for ?Revolution? will galvanize the people, destroy the corrupt ruling systems, and produce a prosperous and more just nation.? Gerald Celente.??? The Revolution Celente proposes is unique in concept and bold in execution.? It is about a lot more than just ?taxation without representation.? ?Nothing short of total repudiation of our entrenched systems can rescue America,? said Celente.????We are under the control of a two-headed, one party political system.???Wall Street controls our financial lives; the media manipulates our minds.? These systems cannot be changed from within. There is no alternative.? Without a revolution, these institutions will bankrupt the country, keep fighting failed wars, start new ones, and hold us in perpetual intellectual subjugation.? The country is restless, and ripe for radical reform.? There is no doubt protests will proliferate and intensify.? In response, the government will call out the troops and bring in the police.? They will use the Patriot Act to silence, detain, harass, persecute and prosecute groups and individuals exercising their Constitutional rights. But Celente?s Revolution need not degenerate into violence or open warfare.? ?Intellectual Revolution? ?I am calling for an ?Intellectual Revolution?.? I ask American citizens to free their minds from the tyranny of? ?Dumb Think.?? This is a revolution about thinking - not manning the barricades.? It?s about brain power - not brute force.? For society to survive and grow, it must wake up and grow up.? Americans must acknowledge what their opinions are based on, who they listen to ? and why. What are America?s prime information sources?? CNN, ?The most trusted name in news??? Fox, ?Fair and balanced?? CNBC, ?First in Business Worldwide?? The New York Times, ?All the news that?s fit to print?? Who do the people listen to?? A closed circuit of familiar faces guaranteed to take predictable positions.? Authorities on nothing, yet pronouncing upon everything; a cadre of media aristocrats, pretending they?re the people?s voice. A d v e r t i s e m e n t Bill O?Reilly, Steven Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, Keith Olbermann, Sean Hannity, Jon Stewart, Chris Matthews, Jim Cramer, Joe Scarborough, Anderson Cooper, Bill Maher. TV tough guys, broadcast big mouths and Beltway blowhards have now been joined by featherweight comics throwing powder puff punches at sitting targets. This new addition to the critical debate is celebrated by the world?s leading financial newspaper: Wall Street Riveted by Comedy Clash Financial Times, 13 March 2009 ?A showdown between a comedian who has become one of America?s most challenging commentators and a news commentator known for his comedic antics has shown the brightest spotlight on the media?s market coverage since the financial crisis began. On Thursday night, two cable television celebrities squared off as Jon Stewart, host of The Daily Show ? on Comedy Central ? confronted Jim Cramer ? star of CNBC?s Mad Money programme.? Without a hint of irony, FT bestows the title of highest American intellectual common denominator upon a clown.? A pencil throwing, screaming, wryly grimacing professional comedian has become ?? one of America?s most challenging commentators?? ?Wall Street riveted by comedy clash?? ?The brightest spotlight on the media?s market coverage?? With the world financial markets in collapse, this rivets Wall Street?? Nearly two years into the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, this shines as ?the brightest spotlight?? >From Wall Street, comedy moves to the White House.???President Obama made history using comic Jay Leno?s Tonight Show as a platform to peddle his policies. World shaping decisions are packaged in sound bites and pitched by the nation?s Showman-in-Chief.? There is no time or place for debate or discussion.? It?s all entertainment. ?The ?Intellectual Revolution? must be waged on the battlefield of the mind,? said Celente.? ?Americans are doomed unless they kick the junk news habit, deprogram themselves from celebrity worship, refuse to blindly follow political leaders and question all ideological dogmas ? especially their own. ?For the revolution to succeed, people must repudiate the one-headed, two party system, and learn to think for themselves,? said Celente. While the corporate-owned mainstream media and the government still control the broad avenues of news and information, only willing and lazy minds need be held hostage to it.? The Internet world is awash in data, facts, analyses and opinions (independent and mainstream) for all to access and assess. Think for Yourself.? The ?Intellectual Revolution? has begun. Trend Call-to-Action: What can you do?? Participating in an April 15th tax protest may be your cup of tea.? Pester your politicians.? Make your voice heard, your discontent felt and your solutions known.? Band with others who share similar objectives and common goals. Research related links To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/b9b0d490/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Thu Apr 16 21:54:25 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:54:25 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Counting Up : The Omer. In-Reply-To: <49E7C123.9030404@westnet.com.au> References: <49E7C123.9030404@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <08D249C79BBE4737AD47AB841A816EA7@bettylaptop> Thank you Joe for this beautiful teaching. Have a blessed Shabbat Shalom! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Counting Up : The Omer. Friday, April 17, 2009 Counting Up - - - - - - - posted by Reb. Nati - - 4/17/2009 12:01:00 AM ET by Rabbi Nati at Mystical Paths The AriZal, Rabbi Yiztchak Luria, zt"l, explains that on the night of Pesach it was vital that the Jews be on a level of Mochin de'Gadlut, expanded consciousness. This is because they were lacking in holiness and steeped in impurities, and otherwise never have been able to leave Egypt. The Jews of Egypt were therefore given Awareness, and not in the gradual progressive manner in which expanded consciousness is normally acquired. Their levels of consciousness came to them in an inverted manner: Mochin de'gadlut prior to Mochin de'katnut, the level of constricted consciousness. However, the the very next day, the day after the Exodus, they were back to "normal", receiving the Katnut and having to progressively achieve the Gadlut. It is possible for us to receive Mochin, this consciousness or wisdom, every single day. A person begins his day attempting to serve Hashem and, as the day wears on, he himself progresses; reaching ever greater understanding in serving Hashem. Every single day we must try to draw this wisdom upon us. It is the wisdom to recognize and understand Hashem, come close to Him and devote ourselves to serving Him. Just as no two days of our lives are exactly the same, the chochmah of the day is never the same. The chochmah of today is never the same as it was yesterday or tomorrow. Each new day provides us with a different set of concepts and experiences which make up that day's chochmah; the wisdom we are to use in order to know and come closer to Him today! The essence of the day is light, spiritual light (so to speak). Each day, we have to try to attain this light. How? By extracting the good that is inherent in today, in every single day. The day, however, starts with night. It begins with darkness, the barriers that prevent us from reaching our goal. We have to always strengthen ourselves and make every possible attempt to break through the obstructions and obstacles surrounding us on that day. Only by discovering the good in every single day and utilizing the knowledge that Hashem is in control of everything that happens, THAT HE IS KING, only then can we recognize and draw closer to HIM. During the Sefirat HaOmer, as we count, we should grow and realize that this is an evolution from the matrix of this world to the truth of the next. Shabbat Shalom JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/2698d8d7/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 14569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090416/2698d8d7/attachment.jpe From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Thu Apr 16 23:02:50 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:02:50 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! Message-ID: Shalom Everyone, I am overwhelmed by everyone's response to my last post. I have not been able to respond until now, as I was so emotional. I did not realize that I was welcome in this group and I was feeling so alone. I am thankful to everyone who responded to my message and I would be honoured to stay in this group with all of you. I hope that my future posts will not offend anyone. I am feeling rather weak and vulnerable right now, so it may be a while before I post anything more. I do appreciate your friendship. Betty it seems that I have the same problem as you in being over sensitive. I hope this will not stand in the way of us becoming good friends. I appreciate each one of you and I am sure we can be there for each other and help each other toward our goal of seeking and obeying the truth which YeHoWaH reveals to us. I know I can not get there alone and I need each one of you to help me to stay focused, to pray for me when I am down and correct me when I am wrong. My prayers are with all of you. May YeHoWaH be with all of us, and lead us into all truth, and give us strength to obey and serve Him as He desires us to. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/c83b99d8/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 17 00:05:26 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:05:26 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <041720090505.2060.49E80E160004E2FB0000080C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Most excellent Sandra, thank you for staying with us. Dayenyu. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Sandra Inglis" : -------------- Shalom Everyone, I am overwhelmed by everyone's response to my last post. I have not been able to respond until now, as I was so emotional. I did not realize that I was welcome in this group and I was feeling so alone. I am thankful to everyone who responded to my message and I would be honoured to stay in this group with all of you. I hope that my future posts will not offend anyone. I am feeling rather weak and vulnerable right now, so it may be a while before I post anything more. I do appreciate your friendship. Betty it seems that I have the same problem as you in being over sensitive. I hope this will not stand in the way of us becoming good friends. I appreciate each one of you and I am sure we can be there for each other and help each other toward our goal of seeking and obeying the truth which YeHoWaH reveals to us. I know I can not get there alone and I need each one of you to help me to stay focused, to pray for me when I am down and correct me when I am wrong. My prayers are with all of you. May YeHoWaH be with all of us, and lead us into all truth, and give us strength to obey and serve Him as He desires us to. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/f126c926/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Apr 17 02:55:37 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 00:55:37 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Celente In-Reply-To: <442695.8991.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <442695.8991.qm@web30401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200904170755.n3H7tcMo020454@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Good points Betty, "especially : "We all need to be able to hear G-d's voice so clearly we will KNOW what to do." It is the key to everything... Let everyone ask for that and expect that... we will need to depend on Hearing Hashem's voice in the times ahead... thanks for the Celente note Cody Steve At 06:02 PM 4/16/2009, you wrote: >I am involved with one "We surround them" group >and to some extent, 2 more. I believe that the >government will put more pressure as we get >louder. I know that this is not a solution. It >can only postpone the inevitable. I expect the >government to clamp down on all rights, and >eventually declare martial law when and if they >have to. the only thing we can do is prepare >with the basics and plan to live with only the >basics and pray. We all need to be able to hear >G-d's voice so clearly we will KNOW what to do. >We also need to ask ourselves what we are >willing to do and what we are willing to give up >to change things. The time is coming to separate >the men from the boys, (ladies, present company accepted.) >Betty Eddy > > > > >--- On Thu, 4/16/09, cody oneill wrote: > >From: cody oneill >Subject: [Dialogue] Celente >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 4:12 PM > > >This is really happening. It's a real movement. > >I urge everyone to look this guy up, and take >what you will from him. I've followed him for >some time. He studies the past, so he understands present events. > >Cody > > > >Celente Calls for Revolution as the Only Solution >Posted By admin On April 15, 2009 @ 12:27 pm In >Featured Stories | 317 Comments > >The Yonkers Tribune >April 15, 2009 >???The Tea Parties and Tax Protests sprouting >across the nation, which we had predicted, are >harbingers of revolution,??? said Gerald >Celente, Director of The Trends Research >Institute. ???But they are not enough. Much >stronger and directed action is required. Our >call for ???Revolution??? will galvanize the >people, destroy the corrupt ruling systems, and >produce a prosperous and more just nation.??? > >Gerald Celente. >The Revolution Celente proposes is unique in >concept and bold in execution. It is about a >lot more than just ???taxation without representation.??? > >???Nothing short of total repudiation of our >entrenched systems can rescue America,??? said >Celente. ???We are under the control of a >two-headed, one party political system. Wall >Street controls our financial lives; the media >manipulates our minds. These systems cannot be >changed from within. There is no >alternative. Without a revolution, these >institutions will bankrupt the country, keep >fighting failed wars, start new ones, and hold >us in perpetual intellectual subjugation.??? > >The country is restless, and ripe for radical >reform. There is no doubt protests will >proliferate and intensify. In response, the >government will call out the troops and bring in >the police. They will use the Patriot Act to >silence, detain, harass, persecute and prosecute >groups and individuals exercising their Constitutional rights. > >But Celente???s Revolution need not degenerate >into violence or open warfare. > > >???Intellectual Revolution??? > >???I am calling for an ???Intellectual >Revolution???. I ask American citizens to free >their minds from the tyranny of ???Dumb >Think.??? This is a revolution about thinking - >not manning the barricades. It???s about brain power - not brute force.??? > >For society to survive and grow, it must wake up >and grow up. Americans must acknowledge what >their opinions are based on, who they listen to and why. > >What are America???s prime informaation >sources? CNN, ???The most trusted name in >news???? Fox, ???Fair and balanced???? > >CNBC, ???First in Business Worldwide???? The New >York Times, ???All the news that???s fit to print???? > >Who do the people listen to? A closed circuit >of familiar faces guaranteed to take predictable >positions. Authorities on nothing, yet >pronouncing upon everything; a cadre of media >aristocrats, pretending they???re the people???s voice. > >A d v e r t i s e m e n t >Bill O???Reilly, Steven Colbert, Rush Limbaugh, >Keith Olbermann, Sean Hannity, Jon Stewart, >Chris Matthews, Jim Cramer, Joe Scarborough, Anderson Cooper, Bill Maher. > >TV tough guys, broadcast big mouths and Beltway >blowhards have now been joined by featherweight >comics throwing powder puff punches at sitting targets. > >This new addition to the critical debate is >celebrated by the world???s leading financial newspaper: > > >Wall Street Riveted by Comedy Clash > >Financial Times, 13 March 2009 > >???A showdown between a comedian who has become >one of America???s most challenging commentators >and a news commentator known for his comedic >antics has shown the brightest spotlight on the >media???s market coverage since the financial crisis began. > >On Thursday night, two cable television >celebrities squared off as Jon Stewart, host of >The Daily Show on Coomedy Central confronted >Jim Cramer star of CNBC??C???s Mad Money programme.??? > >Without a hint of irony, FT bestows the title of >highest American intellectual common denominator >upon a clown. A pencil throwing, screaming, >wryly grimacing professional comedian has become >??? one of America???s most challenging commentators???? > >???Wall Street riveted by comedy clash???? >???The brightest spotlight on the media???s market coverage???? > >With the world financial markets in collapse, >this rivets Wall Street? Nearly two years into >the worst financial crisis since the Great >Depression, this shines as ???the brightest spotlight???? > > >From Wall Street, comedy moves to the White > House. President Obama made history using > comic Jay Leno???s Tonight Show as a platform to peddle his policies. > >World shaping decisions are packaged in sound >bites and pitched by the nation???s >Showman-in-Chief. There is no time or place for >debate or discussion. It???s all entertainment. > >???The ???Intellectual Revolution??? must be >waged on the battlefield of the mind,??? said >Celente. ???Americans are doomed unless they >kick the junk news habit, deprogram themselves >from celebrity worship, refuse to blindly follow >political leaders and question all ideological dogmas especially theirr own. > >???For the revolution to succeed, people must >repudiate the one-headed, two party system, and >learn to think for themselves,??? said Celente. > >While the corporate-owned mainstream media and >the government still control the broad avenues >of news and information, only willing and lazy >minds need be held hostage to it. The Internet >world is awash in data, facts, analyses and >opinions (independent and mainstream) for all to access and assess. > >Think for Yourself. The ???Intellectual Revolution??? has begun. > >Trend Call-to-Action: > >What can you do? Participating in an April 15th >tax protest may be your cup of tea. Pester your >politicians. Make your voice heard, your >discontent felt and your solutions known. Band >with others who share similar objectives and common goals. > >Research related links > > > > >To be courageous requires no exceptional >qualifications, no magic formula, no special >combination of time, place, and circumstance. It >is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. > >--JFK-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/360c46a5/attachment.html From stacie.smith at inbox.com Fri Apr 17 06:34:33 2009 From: stacie.smith at inbox.com (Stacie Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:34:33 -0800 Subject: [Dialogue] Last Supper Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/edc269de/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 06:51:17 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:51:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wonderful, Sandra!!!! From: Sandra Inglis Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:02 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Everyone, I am overwhelmed by everyone's response to my last post. I have not been able to respond until now, as I was so emotional. I did not realize that I was welcome in this group and I was feeling so alone. I am thankful to everyone who responded to my message and I would be honoured to stay in this group with all of you. I hope that my future posts will not offend anyone. I am feeling rather weak and vulnerable right now, so it may be a while before I post anything more. I do appreciate your friendship. Betty it seems that I have the same problem as you in being over sensitive. I hope this will not stand in the way of us becoming good friends. I appreciate each one of you and I am sure we can be there for each other and help each other toward our goal of seeking and obeying the truth which YeHoWaH reveals to us. I know I can not get there alone and I need each one of you to help me to stay focused, to pray for me when I am down and correct me when I am wrong. My prayers are with all of you. May YeHoWaH be with all of us, and lead us into all truth, and give us strength to obey and serve Him as He desires us to. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/18cac70b/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Fri Apr 17 07:52:39 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:52:39 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ee01c9bf5b$65ad38b0$3107aa10$@com> Awesome, Sandra! Thanks for hanging in here with us. Shabbat Shalom! Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:03 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Everyone, I am overwhelmed by everyone's response to my last post. I have not been able to respond until now, as I was so emotional. I did not realize that I was welcome in this group and I was feeling so alone. I am thankful to everyone who responded to my message and I would be honoured to stay in this group with all of you. I hope that my future posts will not offend anyone. I am feeling rather weak and vulnerable right now, so it may be a while before I post anything more. I do appreciate your friendship. Betty it seems that I have the same problem as you in being over sensitive. I hope this will not stand in the way of us becoming good friends. I appreciate each one of you and I am sure we can be there for each other and help each other toward our goal of seeking and obeying the truth which YeHoWaH reveals to us. I know I can not get there alone and I need each one of you to help me to stay focused, to pray for me when I am down and correct me when I am wrong. My prayers are with all of you. May YeHoWaH be with all of us, and lead us into all truth, and give us strength to obey and serve Him as He desires us to. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/88c9512e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 08:42:47 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:42:47 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Celente] In-Reply-To: <49E7C4A9.8090401@westnet.com.au> References: <49E7C4A9.8090401@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thank you both, Cody and Joe. I saw a clip of the Texas Governor talking about participation in the Texas Tea Party, and I hear serious, hard-working people around here talking about how disappointed they are in the new President's policies. Just praying things will level off, the President will listen to the people he is supposed to serve, and America will pull out of this. Pat From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 7:52 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Celente] Shalom Cody, thank you for the political round up of what is happening in your neck of the woods, which I suggest may be exported to other Western countries including our own Australia. Regarding "Tea Parties - tax and government protests - scheduled for New Jersey" - Reb Akiva from mystical paths has some interesting points to make. I would like to post them for your consideration. Politics: The Obama Mess - - - - - - - posted by Akiva - - 4/15/2009 09:54:00 PM ET by Reb Akiva at Mystical Paths This is a political treatise, a bit of a departure from our standard Jewish religious fare. In the book Blink, Malcolm Gladwell describes the "Warren Harding Mistake". In essence, because President Warren Harding seemed so presidential, he was given a pass on issues and investigation as a presidential candidate. He was easily elected on the basis of his appearance, voice and intonation. In other words, he looked like a president and spoke like a president, a handsome and classy one at that. Because of these unconscious factors, people didn't actually delve into _what_ he said. He looked, sounded and acted presidential, his opponent did not. He won, and won by a massive landslide. Harding is considered, by scholars of such things, to have been the worst president in US history. His leadership skills were weak, his policies empty. Barak Obama came on the scene at a time that the majority of the American people were disgruntled with the current president. While he pushed strong policies - many of them overly partisan and not thoroughly thought out or reactions to a violently changing world - Bush was consistently derided as stupid. He was ridiculed as such by the press for 8 years straight. Enter Obama, the intellectual. He spoke eloquently and promised a new path. The electorate was not pleased with the current path and had been dealing with a president that was ineloquent at best. He looked presidential, tall and confident. He was also young and vibrant, with a president who was tired and an opponent who was old. His opponent did not look very presidential in comparison, and was not particularly eloquent either. Obama won, not quite by a landslide but by a significant margin. Few seriously examined his expressed policies, and those who did found them vapid and wanting. As the rumblings of the financial crisis arose, his pre-election policy was essentially "we'll fix that". His major drive was "we'll change things". Conservative pundits noticed that the policy depth was not much more than 3 words long, but the general press was taken in by the same 'he's the most presidential and therefore most trustworthy' UNCONSCIOUS factors that 88 years earlier. Hence he was elected without a serious examination of his policies and politics, a junior senator EARLY in his first term who had previously been a local politician. If such a selection occurred during a quiet prosperous period for the United States, perhaps the impact would have been unpleasant and annoying. As instead it's happening during a period of the United States at war on multiple fronts, world political realignment, and the greatest financial crisis since the Great Depression, the lack of experience, empty policies, weak leadership and strong partisan positions may very well cause the United States massive damage - perhaps even to the point of permanently losing it's world leadership position. Actually, there is little doubt that that will be one of the early impacts. As Caroline Glick described so well in her article "Surviving in a Post American World", the Obama administration has implemented a direct policy of alienating national friends & allies, and encouraging national enemies. While they may be hoping by doing so to create a new relationship with those enemies, so far such steps have emboldened those enemies and weakened allies. One can naturally assume that all US allies are currently evaluating steps to take to reduce or eliminate reliance on the US in favor of new multi-point global relationships. Such a relationship change is not recoverable. While a few short years ago there was a discussion of how the US could solidify it's position as a world power, the new "Rome" so to speak, nowadays the question is whether the US will continue to be taken seriously as a power at all. While Rome's hegemony lasted over 500 years, the United State's lasted 64. The latest news, and a real surpriser at that, is of the Department of Homeland Security releasing an emergency reporting alerting police forces nationwide of the threat of domestic terrorism from "Right Wing Radicals", including such dangerous groups as Veterans returning from Iraq, Pro-2nd Amendment Gun Groups, .... Note what's not included, Islamic terrorism foreign or domestic, threats from radical states such as North Korea, groups such as Al Queda or the Taliban. By the way, if you actually read the report you'll find it's 100% fear mongering, and even says repeatedly "there is no threat today, but there could be, so crack down early". For our Jewish readers (we assume the majority as it's a Jewish blog), the government article notes, "Anti-Semitic extremists attribute these losses to a deliberate conspiracy conducted by a cabal of Jewish ?financial elites." These ?accusatory? tactics are employed to draw new recruits into right wing extremist groups and further radicalize those already subscribing to extremist beliefs." So my dear Jewish friends, YOU are the cause of white supremacist growth in the US! "Many right wing extremists are antagonistic toward the new presidential administration and its perceived stance on a range of issues, including immigration and citizenship, the expansion of social programs to minorities, and restrictions on firearms ownership and use." FYI dear Homeland Security, many CITIZENS are concerned about these issues. That used to be called free speech and political voice, now it's called "reaching out to a wider audience of potential sympathizers". Net net, we have a new US presidential administration alienating and weakening national allies, cozying up to national enemies - so far completely rebuffed by said enemies, completely fumbling the financial crisis and probably destroying Wall Street and the US financial engine in the process, trying to start a class war against the rich - who suddenly include anyone making above an average income, and coming out against those disagree as possible extremists to be watched and guarded against. While the Bush administration made many mistakes, primarily in overreaching both in political programs and the war, the Obama administration seems to be headed for top of the worst president in US history list even before they've finished their first year. And Malcolm Gladwell may have to retitle the "Warren Harding Mistake" as the "Barak Obama Mistake". And may G-d help us all from the world chaos this administration's actions are invoking. Part of what spawned the idea for this treatise was some emails I received about Tea Parties - tax and government protests - scheduled for New Jersey. My advice for the organizers is: make sure you have some constitutional lawyers on your team and lined up in advance. DO NOT be shocked at unusually strong government response. The new administration clearly is going to take steps to prevent this from building. (Photo courtesy of "Betsy Ross" from the Newark, NJ Tea Party) 3 Comments Close this window Jump to comment form Devash said... "And may G-d help us all from the world chaos this administration's actions are invoking." Do you doubt that it is all by design and according to the Master's plan? It is ALL GOOD! It is a necessary step towards the geulah shleimah. April 16, 2009 1:01 PM Shiloh said... Devash is correct. It is haShem's plan. How better can Ishmael and Esav merge then through His agent Hussein Obama. How long must we wait? April 16, 2009 3:04 PM just me said... My husband and I have been seeing this coming. What you say is unfortunately truth- we spoke only amonst ourselves. Devash, it's Hashem's Plan. But I will be honest, I worry about all of my family not living in Israel. (this is the majority) Our help is from Adoshem, Maker of heaven and earth. April 16, 2009 4:26 PM Shabbat Shalom JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/6302f83c/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 24753 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/6302f83c/attachment.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 3428 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/6302f83c/attachment-0001.jpe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 43 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/6302f83c/attachment.gif From oneillcody at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 09:16:49 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 07:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! Message-ID: <301681.49807.qm@web37306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> So glad you're staying Sandra!

"To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all."
--JFK-- From bkgivin at charter.net Fri Apr 17 10:22:08 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:22:08 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: <041720090505.2060.49E80E160004E2FB0000080C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <041720090505.2060.49E80E160004E2FB0000080C22216128369B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <80BF6A0C717245FDBCA206AA625EABA2@bettylaptop> Wonderful, Sandra! Without one another, we would all be alone! I am so glad you are staying with us too. I have a ton of things to do today to prepare for Sabbath, and will get back with you on SWW as soon as I can catch my breath. Thank you for opening up your heart to me and to the rest of us. May you have a beautiful Shabbat full of HaShem's blessings! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:05 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Please read - from my heart to yours! Most excellent Sandra, thank you for staying with us. Dayenyu. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Sandra Inglis" : -------------- Shalom Everyone, I am overwhelmed by everyone's response to my last post. I have not been able to respond until now, as I was so emotional. I did not realize that I was welcome in this group and I was feeling so alone. I am thankful to everyone who responded to my message and I would be honoured to stay in this group with all of you. I hope that my future posts will not offend anyone. I am feeling rather weak and vulnerable right now, so it may be a while before I post anything more. I do appreciate your friendship. Betty it seems that I have the same problem as you in being over sensitive. I hope this will not stand in the way of us becoming good friends. I appreciate each one of you and I am sure we can be there for each other and help each other toward our goal of seeking and obeying the truth which YeHoWaH reveals to us. I know I can not get there alone and I need each one of you to help me to stay focused, to pray for me when I am down and correct me when I am wrong. My prayers are with all of you. May YeHoWaH be with all of us, and lead us into all truth, and give us strength to obey and serve Him as He desires us to. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/2225eca1/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Apr 17 12:37:40 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:37:40 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Israel's 'friend,' Rahm Emanuel Message-ID: <855590370904171037x6f57adb3k6bc8a47a8e2010bc@mail.gmail.com> For all of those who were jumping for joy when President Barack Hussein Obama appointed Jews as advisors, especially Rahm Emanuel, please make sure to read the quote below.... *Obama vs. Israel *The paper further reports that Rahm Emanuel, Obama?s hard-hitting Jewish Chief of Staff, recently told a Jewish leader in Washington, *?In the next four years, there will be a final status agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, based on ?two states for two peoples,? and we couldn?t care less who the Prime Minister is.?* * * I wonder which of the 50 States in the United States, good old Rahm was referring to?? (please make sure to read my question sardonically) Shabbat Shalom, * Hanoch * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/cd93615d/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 15:00:03 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Last Supper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48054.47130.qm@web51102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Stacie, He was following the Torah in preparing for the passover.?Arrangements had to be made - they had to get a ticket ahead of time in order to slaughter a lamb for their group. Though he had desired to eat the passover with them, he?would never eat it?that year.?He was, instead,?nailed to?the tree on?Mt Olivet overlooking the Temple?at the same time that the lambs were being slaughtered. Tracy Osborne ? ________________________________ From: Stacie Smith To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 7:34:33 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Last Supper ? I found the information about the 'last supper' very enlightening.? Someone pointed out that the greek word for 'bread' in Matthew 26:26 (at the 'last supper') is artos, which is regular, leavened bread.? But the greek word always used for 'unleavened bread' (Matthew 26:17, etc.) is azymos, which is unleavened bread.? This has lead me to believe that this was not a passover meal, but I don't know why Jesus instructed his disciples to go to the man's house to prepare the passover. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/990d6a00/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 15:12:42 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtEaWFsb2d1ZV0g4oCr16nXldeV15DXp9eZ4oCs4oCO?= In-Reply-To: <49E7B6C7.6040607@westnet.com.au> References: <49E7B6C7.6040607@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <265671.30110.qm@web51112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Simply Phenomenal!!!!!!!!! Thanks Joe, Tracy ________________________________ From: JOE INDOMENICO To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:52:55 PM Subject: [Dialogue] ????????? Shalom Chaverim, Klal Yisrael endured 210 years of extreme hardship and duress under Egyptian slavery. Pharaoh forgot Yosef. However when their tears and cries came to the Ears of HaShem, He sent the deliverer, Moshe,the one who was initially rejected and spent 40 years in the wilderness but returned in the power and authority of HaShem. AVINU, MALKEINU, my prayer for Shabbat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvCjhc7pLEY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lazerbrody.typepad.com%2F&feature=player_embedded Shabbat Shalom JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/48ce3182/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 17 15:16:19 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:16:19 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Birchat HaChamah: Video, San Antonio | mySA.com, Express-News Message-ID: A friend of mine in San Antonio, TX sent me the Birchat HaChamah service performed by the Chabad Rabbi. I loved it and thought some of you might too. ~ Pat http://www.mysanantonio.com/videos/?bctid=18963348001&pagecnt=1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/89669f0d/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Fri Apr 17 19:18:34 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Birchat HaChamah: Video, San Antonio | mySA.com, Express-News In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64926.54571.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thank you for this!? I'm from Texas and I can't tell you how much I miss it.? If I can't be in Israel, let me be in TEXAS!? ? Margie Creech --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Patricia Robbins wrote: From: Patricia Robbins Subject: [Dialogue] Birchat HaChamah: Video, San Antonio | mySA.com, Express-News To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 3:16 PM A friend of mine in San Antonio, TX sent me the Birchat HaChamah service performed by the Chabad Rabbi.? I loved it and thought some of you might too.?? ~ Pat ? ?http://www.mysanantonio.com/videos/?bctid=18963348001&pagecnt=1 _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090417/dea7defa/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 17 20:53:50 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:53:50 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue]Reply Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041820090153.1324.49E932AC000208C30000052C22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Betty, I'm writing to explain to the folks about the bridges as you asked. Before I do I want to say that another of our friends (Kim) had an awesome candle experience on Pesach with her children which I hope she will post as well. Anyway, what I told Betty was that my wife and I hosted a small seder at at our house on Pesach with our close friends from Roots of Faith in Saint Francisville. We had candles lit on the two small tables we were eating at and a fan was blowing on one of them. The fan made the candle on the table I was sitting at burn faster than the candle at the other table. As I watched it burn (I've always loved to watch candles burn down, especially the shapes that the wax makes as it melts), I noticed that the breeze from the fan not only made the candle burn faster but it made the wax fly out from the side of the candle so that it slowly built a fragile bridge of wax which extended out from the top of the candle and curved back in to the side. It was very beautiful. If you will all recall, we had a very "active" discussion on this list just before Pesach. What the candle made me think of was that G-d's breath acts on our relationships the way the fan did on the candle. It makes them burn hotter and in the process allows us to build fragile bridges between each other. These bridges take great care and nurturing for thier preservation. It is the purpose of the dialogue and G-d's breath is here. Shalom my friends. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Shalom Sandra, and I really mean that, with all my heart. ?Shalom? from one sister to another. I really believe that HaShem has had a hand in bringing all of us, with our many different backgrounds and varied belief systems (which are still open to change), together. I am including you, dear Sandra in our group as well. I did not mean to hurt or offend you and I apologize that my words came across in such a way so as to make you feel like you did not ?belong;? That was not my intention; you belong as much as anyone else. I will readily admit that I am at times overly sensitive (my husband tells me repeatedly that I need to grow a thicker skin.). My sensitivity has been both a blessing, and a curse. And in this case, it looks more like the later. The last thing I want to do in the entire world is to hurt someone, as I know what it feels like to be hurt and feel isolated and lonely; and I am so sorry that I hurt you. Please forgive me for that. I was just speaking from my heart, as I think were you, but perhaps it came across too strong. One of my friends in a recent email to me expressed having seen a formation of candle wax that served as a reminder of the ?fragile bridges? between people and how that we need to use the ?breath of G-d? in writing and responding to one another on this dialogue list. I thought that was a good analogy. (Friend, who wrote this, if you are reading this and want to clarify, please do? it was a beautiful analogy and I wanted to present it clearly). As others have already written, it is difficult to communicate via email, but with us literally spread all over the globe, what else can we do? We have this wonderful avenue that we have been given to communicate on so many levels and on so many subjects, and it is such a blessing to be able to do this?to open up our hearts and to dialogue with one another. One of my favorite passages in the Tanakh is one I sure you are familiar with. Written in the context of the last days, the prophet Malachi says, ?Then they who feared HaShem spoke to one another: and HaShem hearkened and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared HaShem and took need of His Name? (Malachi 3:16). So we, who are doing dialogue with one another are taking part in fulfilling this prophecy! In my opinion, we cannot be silent; be need to speak to one another! We don?t all have to agree on every point. In fact, we probably don?t all agree on any point except the main thing that draws us together and that is a love and respect and desire to follow the G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Torah...We are a strange mix?this dialogue group of people?where else would you find such a large group of people, as in those associated with the SWW who having come out of Christianity, have left their traditional belief systems behind and are seeking to follow Torah at all costs? Where else would you find all kinds of Jews?affiliated and non-affiliated Jews, Jewish converts, and B?Nei Noach not only entering into dialogue with one another but also becoming a part of the SWW group? I really believe this is a phenomenon that is not just a coincidence. I believe with all my heart that HaShem has His Hand in it, and that we have been drawn together for a purpose?we can learn, study and pray together and for one another, we can agree or disagree, (and in so doing agree to disagree) as we travel along this path, but we need one another?iron after all sharpens iron?and we can know that HaShem will indeed clear things up for us in the end?and it will all be okay So please reconsider your decision, Sandra?stick with us?you don?t have to be alone? With love and shalom, Elisheva/Betty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/b45b6370/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 15:46:52 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 06:46:52 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YERUSHALAYIM, Message-ID: <49EA3C3C.40209@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/957b767a/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 16:10:15 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:10:15 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] FLOOD IN THE DESERT. Message-ID: <49EA41B7.6040501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/4c70a7a3/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 17:01:03 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:01:03 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Geulah b'Rachamim - Part 1 Message-ID: <49EA4D9F.7030802@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/43d0acab/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 17:01:49 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:01:49 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] As History Winds Down (Revised) Part 2 Message-ID: <49EA4DCD.6060005@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/fcaa91fe/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 17:02:25 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:02:25 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Equation of Life. Part 3 Message-ID: <49EA4DF1.80103@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/407aa8d0/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 17:02:53 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:02:53 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The End of Days. Part 4 Message-ID: <49EA4E0D.7040502@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/918a3611/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 18:09:34 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Israel preparing massive strike on Iran Message-ID: <104766.81021.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Below is an article from World Net Daily you might find interesting. FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU Israel 'preparing massive strike on Iran' Defense officials say country holding drills to be ready within hours of OK to act Posted: April 18, 2009 5:55 pm Eastern By Aaron Klein ??2009?WorldNetDaily TEL AVIV, Israel?The Israel Defense Forces is carrying out drills to practice for a possible massive aerial assault on Iran's nuclear facilities within days - or even hours - of being given the go-ahead by its new government, according to a report today in the Times of London. "Israel wants to know that if its forces were given the green light they could strike at Iran in a matter of days, even hours. They are making preparations on every level for this eventuality. The message to Iran is that the threat is not just words," one unnamed senior defense official was quoted telling The Times. The British newspaper quoted other unidentified defense sources explaining any Israeli attack on Iran would entail flying over Jordanian and Iraqi airspace, where U.S. forces have a strong presence. Previous drills have included the use of F15 and F16 fighter jets, helicopters and refueling tankers, practicing bombing raids at long distances, according to the Times. Those drills took place last year, according to IDF sources speaking to WND. <a href="http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?sid=46722&m=1&c=6376" target="_blank"><img src="http://media.fastclick.net/w/get.media?t=n&sid=46722&m=1&tp=1&f=b&v=1.4&c=6376&r=http%3A//www.wnd.com/&d=n" width=468 height=60 border=0 ></a> 398364550 FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU Israel 'preparing massive strike on Iran' Defense officials say country holding drills to be ready within hours of OK to act Posted: April 18, 2009 5:55 pm Eastern By Aaron Klein ??2009?WorldNetDaily TEL AVIV, Israel?The Israel Defense Forces is carrying out drills to practice for a possible massive aerial assault on Iran's nuclear facilities within days - or even hours - of being given the go-ahead by its new government, according to a report today in the Times of London. "Israel wants to know that if its forces were given the green light they could strike at Iran in a matter of days, even hours. They are making preparations on every level for this eventuality. The message to Iran is that the threat is not just words," one unnamed senior defense official was quoted telling The Times. The British newspaper quoted other unidentified defense sources explaining any Israeli attack on Iran would entail flying over Jordanian and Iraqi airspace, where U.S. forces have a strong presence. Previous drills have included the use of F15 and F16 fighter jets, helicopters and refueling tankers, practicing bombing raids at long distances, according to the Times. Those drills took place last year, according to IDF sources speaking to WND. (Story continues below) 1495917572 ? ? The Times said defense officials believe Israel could be required to hit more than a dozen targets, including moving convoys similar to trucks carrying weapons that were reportedly targeted by Israel in Sudan earlier this year. Targets for the Israel Air Force include Iran's Natanz reactor, where thousands of centrifuges produce enriched uranium; Esfahan, where 250 tons of gas is stored in tunnels; and Arak, where a heavy water reactor produces plutonium. "We would not make the threat [against Iran] without the force to back it. There has been a recent move, a number of on-the-ground preparations, that indicate Israel's willingness to act," another official from Israel's intelligence community was quoted telling the Times. That official added it was unlikely that Israel would carry out any attack without receiving at least tacit approval from the Obama administration, which has pushing for dialogue with Tehran. Ephraim Kam, the deputy director of the Institute for National Security Studies, commented that it was unlikely the U.S. would approve an attack. "The American defense establishment is unsure that the operation will be successful. And the results of the operation would only delay Iran's program by two to four years," he said. Israel recently announced upcoming nationwide civil defense exercises, to prepare the country for the possibility of missile attacks on the home front. Also, the Jerusalem Post reported earlier this week the U.S. and Israel will conduct their most complex military exercise ever, jointly testing three ballistic missile defense systems, according to defense officials. The exercise, called Juniper Cobra, will be conducted in Israel later this year, and will include the Arrow 2 missile interceptor system, the U.S.'s terminal high altitude area defense and the ship-based Aegis ballistic missile defense system. Obama policy giving Iran nukes? In a recent interview, Shabtai Shavit, a former Israeli Mossad chief, told WND Obama's policy of direct diplomacy with Iran may buy Tehran enough time to produce nuclear weapons. "I don't believe there is a political solution which can be achieved through negotiations with Iran," he said. "My concern is that until Obama finishes his learning curve of the subject, the Iranians are going to have maybe the first or even more nuclear bombs." Shavit served as director of the Mossad from 1989 through 1996. He clarified that although diplomacy cannot be ruled out, from his experience he doesn't believe there can be a political solution with Iran. He said there is a military option but that at this point in time, an Israeli or U.S. strike against Tehran's nuclear facilities would not completely halt the country's suspected illicit program. "According to the best of my assessment, I'm afraid [using a strike to] completely disrupt the whole Iranian (nuclear) project and the whole system is not possible. But there still could be a military option. It depends what are the aims you define for [any such attack]." ? Related offers: What terrorists really talk about behind closed doors Definitive work on Mideast ? available only here! "Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad" "Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict" Betty Eddy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/ebb02e30/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Apr 18 18:28:26 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 19:28:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom Message-ID: I have spent about three hours this Shabbat catching up on the Torah teachings that Ross has given the last three weeks, including Tzav, the Passover Sabbath, and today's reading, Shemini. As ever I feel very thankful for Ross and his abilities, study, and hard effort, even while working a full-time job with a large family. I am just amazed at all he does. But I also come away from these lessons so thoroughly convinced, and I know Ross feels the same, that following the week-by- week round of Torah portions and readings from the Prophets is so absolutely valuable in tying us into YHVH, His Way, and His Plan for us and all humankind. That, coupled with the Shabbat, when we can "stop" literally, and take time to read, to listen, to meditate, and to think about these things of the Spirit, is truly the anchor that stays our lives in the midst of all the complexity of our everyday lives. I just wanted to say Shabbat Shalom to all as Havdalah, the separation of the Holy Sabbath from the new week draws near and darkness falls over this portion of the good earth. I am so very excited that I will see many of you in Charlotte next weekend. Last year was a truly wonderful meeting but I felt so pressed and busy with our out of town guests that I hardly had time to spend with so many of you. This year is going to be different in that regard and I sense this meeting is going to be the best one we have ever had in all the years I have been attending UIWU annual meetings--my first was in New York in 1993, for the 90th birthday of David Horowitz and many of you were there. More on the Charlotte meeting tomorrow! Wishing everyone a good week. James From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Apr 18 20:33:13 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:33:13 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Israel preparing massive strike on Iran] Message-ID: <49EA7F59.7020501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/83e334af/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Subject: [Dialogue] Israel preparing massive strike on Iran Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 16:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Size: 23445 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/83e334af/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 22:20:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:20:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] What an interesting title.... Message-ID: <855590370904182020g2726de3ge7705e10edb33bd8@mail.gmail.com> Shavua tov L'Kulam, I hope everyone had a restful, restorative and rejuvenating Shabbat. I often get 'alerts' from Amazon.com about books that I might want to purchase since I have previously bought books in a similar category. I'm sure a number of you who've shopped on that site do, too. Tonight, I opened up my email to find this one - Well, I have no idea what this book is about, but you've just got to LOVE the title, right?!? [image: http://www.amazon.com/gp/r.html?R=1CF07A8NTBO82&C=7CMIKE78E3PK&H=OZMAGJJN8YGMTE5AA2CJLGQVQMMA&T=C&U=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/080066325X/ref=pe_5050_11820120_snp_dp] Was Jesus a Muslim?: Questioning Categories in the Study of Religion Robert F. Shedinger *List Price:* $24.00 *Price: * $21.62 *You Save:* $2.38 (10%) *Release Date:* May 1, 2009 I had thought I had 'seen it all' - I guess I hadn't....... * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/fa7d0e09/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Apr 18 22:23:31 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:23:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Baruch HaShem! I have been richly blessed this Shabbat, first by being able to "stop" and create an "island in time" away from my busy hectic week and take time to meditate and study and pray and focus on what is really important in life. What a blessing it was to be able to go to the synagogue this morning and enter into communal prayer to HaShem with my brothers and sisters of Judah, to witness the Torah being taken out of the ark and hear the parsha being chanted in Hebrew, and witness it being carried through the synagogue as hands reached out to touch it with tzit tzit or siddurs.and then have a wonderful afternoon of personal study, culminated by listening to your teaching on Shemini, Ross. I must say that this teaching was among the best that I have heard. The importance of diet and obedience to HaShem and Torah regarding what is permitted to eat and what is not permitted to eat really cannot be overemphasized. As you so clearly brought out, the first law mankind was ever given after they were given their charge to care for the earth and its creatures, had to do with diet.; not only are we clearly given specifics in Lev. 11, etc., we are also told what will occur in the last days regarding those who keep HaShem's word and those who choose to eat the detestable, abominable things! The Tanakh makes it quite clear! Thank-you Ross for this wonderful teaching! I am definitely convinced as James said, "that following the week-by-week round of Torah portions and readings from the Prophets is so absolutely valuable in tying us into YHVH, His Way, and His Plan for us and all humankind," and I am so thankful to be a part of it, with all of you, and our extended family of both Judah and Joseph around the globe! It is long past time for Havdalah, but I am s t r e t c h i n g Shabbat out a bit as I am not ready to separate the "Holy from the profane" just yet! I too am very excited about our upcoming meeting in Charlotte next week, James, not only to see you but also so many others. I am glad for your sake that you will be able to relax a bit more this time. And for all of those who cannot attend, hopefully, you will be able to tune in and join us! Just think, we will be ushering in Shabbat together next week! It has been a long time since that first UIWU meeting in 1993 on David's 90th birthday.I was not able to attend that first meeting, but have attended many others thru the years and have benefited from each one. May this one indeed be the best ever!!! Each year when we have out meetings, I always picture our gathering together as a microcosm of the great gathering that is to come! May HaShem grant all of us safe travels as we come together, maybe not yet from the "four corners of the earth," but from at least from "four corners of the U.S. (and beyond if we count those of you who will be joining us in cyberspace)!!! Love and Blessings, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:28 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Shabbat Shalom I have spent about three hours this Shabbat catching up on the Torah teachings that Ross has given the last three weeks, including Tzav, the Passover Sabbath, and today's reading, Shemini. As ever I feel very thankful for Ross and his abilities, study, and hard effort, even while working a full-time job with a large family. I am just amazed at all he does. But I also come away from these lessons so thoroughly convinced, and I know Ross feels the same, that following the week-by- week round of Torah portions and readings from the Prophets is so absolutely valuable in tying us into YHVH, His Way, and His Plan for us and all humankind. That, coupled with the Shabbat, when we can "stop" literally, and take time to read, to listen, to meditate, and to think about these things of the Spirit, is truly the anchor that stays our lives in the midst of all the complexity of our everyday lives. I just wanted to say Shabbat Shalom to all as Havdalah, the separation of the Holy Sabbath from the new week draws near and darkness falls over this portion of the good earth. I am so very excited that I will see many of you in Charlotte next weekend. Last year was a truly wonderful meeting but I felt so pressed and busy with our out of town guests that I hardly had time to spend with so many of you. This year is going to be different in that regard and I sense this meeting is going to be the best one we have ever had in all the years I have been attending UIWU annual meetings--my first was in New York in 1993, for the 90th birthday of David Horowitz and many of you were there. More on the Charlotte meeting tomorrow! Wishing everyone a good week. James _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/43d16d05/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sat Apr 18 22:53:46 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:53:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22! In-Reply-To: <49EA7F59.7020501@westnet.com.au> References: <49EA7F59.7020501@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4EA3A2B82F75433DBED5EF081806EDD2@bettylaptop> Joe, thank you for all that you have been sending! I have not yet had a chance to read all of them and have not yet watched the video, but as I read your post, I noticed that you quoted Psalms 18. A few days ago, Kim and I were discussing that the Hertz Commentary mentions Psalms 18 as connected with II Sam 22, which is the Haftarah Reading for the Seventh Day of Pesach. When I turned to read Psalms 18, I was amazed to find that these two chapters with the exception of a difference in a word or two are almost identical to one another; they both even have the same number of verses! It seems that this message must be quite significant for it to be repeated twice in its entirety in the Tanakh! Shavuah tov, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:33 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Israel preparing massive strike on Iran] Shalom Betty, this source of information comes as no surprise, except for its timing. The original intent was to commence this delicate operation in the twilight days of the Bush Administration before the new Obama Administration took office. Since then we have seen incredible overtures from the Obama Machine towards Iran, Syria, Turkey, Cuba and Venezuela, just to mention a few. All within the first quarter of government. There has been a relentless march towards breaking many of the election promises. It now seems that the Obama Administration is not only a continuation of the previous administration but has endorsed many of the political failures of the Bush Administration. You and Cody spoke about Gerald Celente and the possible mayhem that will ensue. I have restrained to this point about whether to post the 2 hour documentary that I have attached because I did not want to upset political sensitivities. I cannot restrain any further. The pace of world geopolitical change is changing at breakneck and lightning speed. This has been building for quite some time but as the Holy Scriptures state the "Birth Pangs of Mashiach" will accelerate as the contractions become more frequent and more severe. HaShem have mercy on us. This documentary shows the background and the core issues at stake. What concerns me most however is the plight of HaShem's nation, Israel. Just surmising here. I read in the past that Bibi Netanyahu was a CFR man. I cannot track the article. If anyone knows , I would greatly appreciate the source. Just like 2000 years ago , there was a traitor at the table. Just like 2000 years ago, it was expedient that one man die for the sake of the nation. Is this an indictment on our current crisis?? Could the New Order be using Yisrael as the scapegoat to galvanize world opinion and condemnation against her. If Yisrael were to attack Iran, then the outcome would be obvious. This single factor alone would be the straw that broke the camel's back. What better way for the world to unite against her in the confederacy of East (Yismael) and West( Christendom) of the Gog u Magog of Ezekiel. What better way for the prophecy of Zechariyah 12 to unfold. I would be freaking out if I did not have the steadfast and true word of HaShem. We are indeed in for a very rocky road indeed. Please do not see this video as an attack on the good and beautiful peoples of the Western world but a serious attack on the modern day Pharaohical Oligarchs that are trying one last push in wresting control from HaShem. A rereading of Psalm 2 is definitely in order to better understand the current crisis. May Mashiach come speedily and in our day to set the captives free. Shelah !!!! Psalms Chapter 18 ? ???????????, ??????? ??????--???????: ?????? ???????, ???????, ???-????????, ?????????? ???????-- ??????? ???????-?????? ?????? ?????? ????-????????, ???????? ???????. 1 For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David the servant of the LORD, {N} who spoke unto the LORD the words of this song {N} in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul; ? ?????????-- ?????????? ?????? ???????. 2 And he said: I love thee, O LORD, my strength. ? ??????, ??????? ????????????-- ???????????: ????? ??????, ???????-????; ???????? ???????-????????, ????????????. 3 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; {N} my God, my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower. ? ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????-???????, ??????????. 4 Praised, I cry, is the LORD, and I am saved from mine enemies. ? ?????????? ???????-?????; ????????? ?????????? ????????????. 5 The cords of Death compassed me, and the floods of Belial assailed me. ? ??????? ??????? ??????????; ???????????, ????????? ?????. 6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me. ? ???????-???, ??????? ??????-- ?????-??????? ??????????: ???????? ?????????? ??????; ????????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. 7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God; {N} out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry came before Him unto His ears. ? ??????????? ???????????, ???????-- ?????????? ?????? ??????????; ????????????????, ????-????? ???. 8 Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations also of the mountains did tremble; {N} they were shaken, because He was wroth. ? ????? ??????, ?????????-- ??????-??????? ???????; ?????????, ???????? ?????????. 9 Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; {N} coals flamed forth from Him. ? ?????? ????????, ????????; ?????????, ?????? ????????. 10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was under His feet. ?? ??????????? ???-???????, ????????; ????????, ???-????????-?????. 11 And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly; yea, He did swoop down upon the wings of the wind. ?? ?????? ???????, ???????-- ???????????? ????????; ????????-?????, ????? ?????????. 12 He made darkness His hiding-place, His pavilion round about Him; {N} darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies. ?? ?????????, ????????: ?????? ???????--??????, ?????????-????. 13 At the brightness before Him, there passed through His thick clouds hailstones and coals of fire. ?? ?????????? ????????????, ??????--??????????, ?????? ?????; ??????, ?????????-????. 14 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Most High gave forth His voice; hailstones and coals of fire. ?? ??????????? ???????, ??????????; ?????????? ???, ??????????. 15 And He sent out His arrows, and scattered them; and He shot forth lightnings, and discomfited them. ?? ??????????, ???????? ?????, ???????????, ????????? ??????: ????????????? ??????-- ???????????, ????? ???????. 16 And the channels of waters appeared, and the foundations of the world were laid bare, {N} at Thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of Thy nostrils. ?? ???????? ?????????, ??????????; ??????????, ???????? ???????. 17 He sent from on high, He took me; He drew me out of many waters. ?? ???????????, ????????? ???; ?????????????, ????-??????? ?????????. 18 He delivered me from mine enemy most strong, and from them that hated me, for they were too mighty for me. ?? ????????????? ??????-??????; ???????-?????? ?????????? ???. 19 They confronted me in the day of my calamity; but the LORD was a stay unto me. ? ?????????????? ??????????; ????????????, ???? ????? ????. 20 He brought me forth also into a large place; He delivered me, because He delighted in me. ?? ??????????? ?????? ??????????; ?????? ?????, ??????? ???. 21 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath He recompensed me. ?? ????-???????????, ???????? ??????; ?????-???????????, ?????????. 22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. ?? ???? ???-???????????? ??????????; ???????????, ???-?????? ??????. 23 For all His ordinances were before me, and I put not away His statutes from me. ?? ??????? ?????? ??????; ??????????????, ??????????. 24 And I was single-hearted with Him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity. ?? ?????????-?????? ??? ?????????; ?????? ?????, ??????? ???????. 25 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in His eyes. ?? ???-?????? ???????????; ???-?????? ???????, ??????????. 26 With the merciful Thou dost show Thyself merciful, with the upright man Thou dost show Thyself upright; ?? ???-????? ???????????; ?????-???????, ????????????. 27 With the pure Thou dost show Thyself pure; and with the crooked Thou dost show Thyself subtle. ?? ????-??????, ???-????? ?????????; ?????????? ?????? ???????????. 28 For Thou dost save the afflicted people; but the haughty eyes Thou dost humble. ?? ????-??????, ??????? ?????; ?????? ???????, ????????? ?????????. 29 For Thou dost light my lamp; the LORD my God doth lighten my darkness. ? ????-????, ????? ???????; ??????????, ????????-?????. 30 For by Thee I run upon a troop; and by my God do I scale a wall. ?? ?????, ??????? ?????????: ???????-?????? ????????; ????? ????, ????? ???????? ????. 31 As for God, His way is perfect; {N} the word of the LORD is tried; He is a shield unto all them that take refuge in Him. ?? ???? ??? ????????, ???????????? ??????; ????? ????, ???????? ??????????. 32 For who is God, save the LORD? And who is a Rock, except our God? ?? ?????, ?????????????? ?????; ????????? ??????? ?????????. 33 The God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way straight; ?? ????????? ???????, ????????????; ????? ????????, ????????????. 34 Who maketh my feet like hinds', and setteth me upon my high places; ?? ???????? ?????, ????????????; ????????? ??????-?????????, ??????????. 35 Who traineth my hands for war, so that mine arms do bend a bow of brass. ?? ?????????-???, ????? ?????????: ?????????? ???????????; ???????????? ??????????. 36 Thou hast also given me Thy shield of salvation, and Thy right hand hath holden me up; and Thy condescension hath made me great. ?? ????????? ??????? ????????; ????? ???????, ??????????. 37 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, and my feet have not slipped. ?? ????????? ????????, ????????????; ?????-???????, ???-??????????. 38 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them; neither did I turn back till they were consumed. ?? ?????????, ?????-??????? ????; ????????, ?????? ???????. 39 I have smitten them through, so that they are not able to rise; they are fallen under my feet. ? ??????????????? ?????, ????????????; ?????????? ????? ?????????. 40 For Thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle; Thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me. ?? ?????????, ???????? ???? ?????; ????????????, ??????????. 41 Thou hast also made mine enemies turn their backs unto me, and I did cut off them that hate me. ?? ??????????? ??????-?????????; ???-??????, ????? ?????. 42 They cried, but there was none to save; even unto the LORD, but He answered them not. ?? ????????????, ???????? ???-??????-?????; ??????? ??????? ????????. 43 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind; I did cast them out as the mire of the streets. ?? ?????????????, ????????-???: ????????????, ??????? ???????; ??? ???-?????????? ????????????. 44 Thou hast delivered me from the contentions of the people; Thou hast made me the head of the nations; a people whom I have not known serve me. ?? ???????? ?????, ??????????? ???; ??????-?????, ??????????-???. 45 As soon as they hear of me, they obey me; the sons of the stranger dwindle away before me. ?? ??????-????? ????????; ???????????, ???????????????????. 46 The sons of the stranger fade away, and come trembling out of their close places. ?? ???-??????, ????????? ??????; ????????, ???????? ????????. 47 The LORD liveth, and blessed be my Rock; and exalted be the God of my salvation; ?? ?????--????????? ???????? ???; ??????????? ??????? ?????????. 48 Even the God that executeth vengeance for me, and subdueth peoples under me. ?? ??????????, ?????????: ??? ???-?????, ?????????????; ??????? ?????, ????????????. 49 He delivereth me from mine enemies; yea, Thou liftest me up above them that rise up against me; Thou deliverest me from the violent man. ? ???-????, ??????? ????????? ??????; ??????????? ??????????. 50 Therefore I will give thanks unto Thee, O LORD, among the nations, and will sing praises unto Thy name. ?? ????????, ?????????? ????????: ???????? ?????, ???????????--??????? ???????????; ???-??????. 51 Great salvation giveth He to His king; {N} and showeth mercy to His anointed, to David and to his seed, for evermore. {P} Now for the movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw &feature=related Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/28488b82/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Sat Apr 18 23:26:03 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Obama Deception Message-ID: <25805.14598.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for sending this Joe. I don't know about Netanyahu. People become irrational when things get bad, and all ends seem to be covered. Tsafrir Ronen, the creator of our news network, saw the possibilities and understood the modern battlefield. He was a hero. We will not stop fighting for his dream to be realized. Cody On a lighter note, telling my friends that Willie Nelson is in Obama Deception has been a huge selling point. To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:44:42 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:44:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904182144x3ef7551dqaeeb078255cdf76f@mail.gmail.com> Below is the original email that I shared with John Carlson and others. My first thought is what I shared below_that being that the candle represented the tribes. What I didn't share (and was pointed out by someone else who is welcome to share his thoughts) is that it has a deeper, more personal meaning for myself and for Jana. I think the deeper meaning is that my daughter might fall away, but that I must keep the light of Torah burning within myself to kindle the lights in others. Another interesting development tonight, I was doing an internet search on something totally unrelated and mistyped something in my search. A post came up from someone in my area wanting to start a group interested in learning the Noahide Laws. I emailed and got a response very quickly. As is turns out the person (woman) that posted the ad is an Orthodox woman living very close to me. She just moved to the area and wants to start a new group or even individual studies. Shavua Tov! Kim Shalom, I'm simply overflowing with the joy of last night's community seder and wanted to share it with you all. The kids and I attended a Community Seder hosted by a local Chavarah. A little background...my daughter Jana (15) has not been interested in Israel, Torah, or anything else along those lines. I light Sabbath candles every week with the kids, we have dinner, and then she does her own thing. She respects my wanting to keep Sabbath, but does not understand and wishes I were just a "normal" mom. On a whim last week I decided that I was going to attend a Jewish seder in my area and that I would ask Jana to come. I found this Chavarah group (not officially reform, but seems to be along those lines) in my area. I called and made Seder reservations. I was a little apprehensive, especially after our Family Seder the night before, when Jana jokingly told me she guesses she's the "wicked child". I even went so far as to tell her she didn't have to go if she didn't want to. She said she's go because she knew it was important to me. It turned out that the Seder was held right down the road from my house in one of the buildings at a Catholic Church...also where they rent a room to meet for Sabbath services. I could go on and on, but to cut it short, the Rabbi was very warm and welcoming, as were the other members of the group. Jana knew a few of the kids from school. We sat next to one of the families who's son attended Jana's school. My not-so-"wicked" child lit the candles as the other kids at our section of the table asked her to, said the blessing, told me how much better this was than last night, and was singing "Dayenu" by the end of the night. We'll see what we will see...perhaps a spark was lit. The symbolic candle? As I said Jana lit the candles. After the blessing, Skipper told me to look at the flame. The wick of one of the candles had split into two so that there were two separate flames. One of the wick halves then "laid down" and went out. The other half slowly burned down and then re-lit the other half. Once again there were two flames. The flames continued to burned until they became one again. All I could think was Baruch HaShem, this is what is really happening with the Tribes, and I'm part of it. BARUCH HASHEM! Love to you all...Shabbat Shalom, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/cf306e37/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Sat Apr 18 23:48:16 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:48:16 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yerushalayim Shel Zahav (Jerusalem of Gold) Message-ID: <855590370904182148v6722fbe9v521bb8d29767f2ee@mail.gmail.com> Yerushalayim Shel Zahav (Jerusalem of Gold w/ English subtitles); sung by the incomparable Ofra Haza, Of Blessed Memory... * Hanoch* Click here: YouTube - Ofra Haza Yerushalayim Shel Zahav (Jerusalem of Gold) subbed -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090418/30bd44ec/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Apr 19 00:34:56 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:34:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904182144x3ef7551dqaeeb078255cdf76f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1c8dbb6e0904182144x3ef7551dqaeeb078255cdf76f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F594386128E49DDBD694BA1924E645A@bettylaptop> Thanks for sharing, Kim. As we discussed a few days ago, it seems that just as HaShem's words in Tanakh are often multi-faceted, the things that He shows and teaches us thru P.R's, etc., may well be multi-faceted as well. I am glad that you have been shown this additional meaning of the candle experience regarding yourself and Jana, so that if it does indeed come to pass for a time, that you will be fortified and strengthened to stand firm with your light of Torah burning within yourself.and of course you will kindle the lights of others with the light that HaShem has kindled within you! Remember when we were talking about your candle experience above and I said that I had to read something to you? My Tanakh was open to Psalm 18:29 and read it to you over the phone? I am now convinced that this was a PR that HaShem had given me for you. " For Thou will light my candle: HaShem My G-D will enlighten my darkness." After I read it, you said that Rabbi Hertz had mentioned Psalm 18 in connection with II Sam 29, which is the haftarah for the Seventh day of Passover? After we got off the phone, I compared Psalm 18 and II Sam 29 and was blown away because they are so similar in text (See email I wrote earlier today). II Sam 29 reads, "For Thou art my lamp, O HaShem and HaShem enlightens my darkness" Pretty amazing, don't you think? And additionally, we talked about the special format of the Hebrew in II Sam 29 and Exodus 15 (The Song of the Sea) read on the Seventh Day of Pesach.and how the Hebrew formation looks like a "wall of protection." I have always understood Exodus 15 on a larger scale as the wall of protection that HaShem gave His people as they crossed over the Sea of Reeds, and then the passage in II Sam. 29 is the song that David sung when HaShem delivered him from King Saul.but I think that these passages can be applied to our personal lives as well.and especially since Psalm 18 is a repeat of II Sam 22! I really think that this was part of the P.R. for you.that HaShem has extended, is extending and will continue to extend protection for you in your personal life. And who knows, this Orthodox woman you just "coincidently" (?) happened to make contact with, may be just the person you need in your life right now?! Please keep us posted. I love you.see you soon! Mom Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of kim alvarado Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience Below is the original email that I shared with John Carlson and others. My first thought is what I shared below_that being that the candle represented the tribes. What I didn't share (and was pointed out by someone else who is welcome to share his thoughts) is that it has a deeper, more personal meaning for myself and for Jana. I think the deeper meaning is that my daughter might fall away, but that I must keep the light of Torah burning within myself to kindle the lights in others. Another interesting development tonight, I was doing an internet search on something totally unrelated and mistyped something in my search. A post came up from someone in my area wanting to start a group interested in learning the Noahide Laws. I emailed and got a response very quickly. As is turns out the person (woman) that posted the ad is an Orthodox woman living very close to me. She just moved to the area and wants to start a new group or even individual studies. Shavua Tov! Kim Shalom, I'm simply overflowing with the joy of last night's community seder and wanted to share it with you all. The kids and I attended a Community Seder hosted by a local Chavarah. A little background...my daughter Jana (15) has not been interested in Israel, Torah, or anything else along those lines. I light Sabbath candles every week with the kids, we have dinner, and then she does her own thing. She respects my wanting to keep Sabbath, but does not understand and wishes I were just a "normal" mom. On a whim last week I decided that I was going to attend a Jewish seder in my area and that I would ask Jana to come. I found this Chavarah group (not officially reform, but seems to be along those lines) in my area. I called and made Seder reservations. I was a little apprehensive, especially after our Family Seder the night before, when Jana jokingly told me she guesses she's the "wicked child". I even went so far as to tell her she didn't have to go if she didn't want to. She said she's go because she knew it was important to me. It turned out that the Seder was held right down the road from my house in one of the buildings at a Catholic Church...also where they rent a room to meet for Sabbath services. I could go on and on, but to cut it short, the Rabbi was very warm and welcoming, as were the other members of the group. Jana knew a few of the kids from school. We sat next to one of the families who's son attended Jana's school. My not-so-"wicked" child lit the candles as the other kids at our section of the table asked her to, said the blessing, told me how much better this was than last night, and was singing "Dayenu" by the end of the night. We'll see what we will see...perhaps a spark was lit. The symbolic candle? As I said Jana lit the candles. After the blessing, Skipper told me to look at the flame. The wick of one of the candles had split into two so that there were two separate flames. One of the wick halves then "laid down" and went out. The other half slowly burned down and then re-lit the other half. Once again there were two flames. The flames continued to burned until they became one again. All I could think was Baruch HaShem, this is what is really happening with the Tribes, and I'm part of it. BARUCH HASHEM! Love to you all...Shabbat Shalom, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/3fc8f851/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Sun Apr 19 00:50:44 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 00:50:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue]John: Reply to your candle experience In-Reply-To: <041820090153.1324.49E932AC000208C30000052C22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <041820090153.1324.49E932AC000208C30000052C22243322829B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <340EA5D54B9C4F3585FCB426A02A7C94@bettylaptop> John, thanks for sharing this candle experience you had at Pesach! I too love to watch the candles as they burn down and find that I am not alone in that I love watching the shapes that the wax makes as it melts. As I mentioned before, it seems that a number of us have some very interesting stories that I think would be good to share.maybe we could start at the conference? It seems that those of us who either knew and loved David Horowitz personally or have grown to know and love him thru his Thirty-three Candles have more in common than we think! Shavua tov, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue]Reply Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Hey Betty, I'm writing to explain to the folks about the bridges as you asked. Before I do I want to say that another of our friends (Kim) had an awesome candle experience on Pesach with her children which I hope she will post as well. Anyway, what I told Betty was that my wife and I hosted a small seder at at our house on Pesach with our close friends from Roots of Faith in Saint Francisville. We had candles lit on the two small tables we were eating at and a fan was blowing on one of them. The fan made the candle on the table I was sitting at burn faster than the candle at the other table. As I watched it burn (I've always loved to watch candles burn down, especially the shapes that the wax makes as it melts), I noticed that the breeze from the fan not only made the candle burn faster but it made the wax fly out from the side of the candle so that it slowly built a fragile bridge of wax which extended out from the top of the candle and curved back in to the side. It was very beautiful. If you will all recall, we had a very "active" discussion on this list just before Pesach. What the candle made me think of was that G-d's breath acts on our relationships the way the fan did on the candle. It makes them burn hotter and in the process allows us to build fragile bridges between each other. These bridges take great care and nurturing for thier preservation. It is the purpose of the dialogue and G-d's breath is here. Shalom my friends. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Betty Givin" : -------------- Shalom Sandra, and I really mean that, with all my heart. "Shalom" from one sister to another. I really believe that HaShem has had a hand in bringing all of us, with our many different backgrounds and varied belief systems (which are still open to change), together. I am including you, dear Sandra in our group as well. I did not mean to hurt or offend you and I apologize that my words came across in such a way so as to make you feel like you did not "belong;" That was not my intention; you belong as much as anyone else. I will readily admit that I am at times overly sensitive (my husband tells me repeatedly that I need to grow a thicker skin.). My sensitivity has been both a blessing, and a curse. And in this case, it looks more like the later. The last thing I want to do in the entire world is to hurt someone, as I know what it feels like to be hurt and feel isolated and lonely; and I am so sorry that I hurt you. Please forgive me for that. I was just speaking from my heart, as I think were you, but perhaps it came across too strong. One of my friends in a recent email to me expressed having seen a formation of candle wax that served as a reminder of the "fragile bridges" between people and how that we need to use the "breath of G-d" in writing and responding to one another on this dialogue list. I thought that was a good analogy. (Friend, who wrote this, if you are reading this and want to clarify, please do. it was a beautiful analogy and I wanted to present it clearly). As others have already written, it is difficult to communicate via email, but with us literally spread all over the globe, what else can we do? We have this wonderful avenue that we have been given to communicate on so many levels and on so many subjects, and it is such a blessing to be able to do this.to open up our hearts and to dialogue with one another. One of my favorite passages in the Tanakh is one I sure you are familiar with. Written in the context of the last days, the prophet Malachi says, "Then they who feared HaShem spoke to one another: and HaShem hearkened and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared HaShem and took need of His Name" (Malachi 3:16). So we, who are doing dialogue with one another are taking part in fulfilling this prophecy! In my opinion, we cannot be silent; be need to speak to one another! We don't all have to agree on every point. In fact, we probably don't all agree on any point except the main thing that draws us together and that is a love and respect and desire to follow the G-D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Torah...We are a strange mix.this dialogue group of people.where else would you find such a large group of people, as in those associated with the SWW who having come out of Christianity, have left their traditional belief systems behind and are seeking to follow Torah at all costs? Where else would you find all kinds of Jews.affiliated and non-affiliated Jews, Jewish converts, and B'Nei Noach not only entering into dialogue with one another but also becoming a part of the SWW group? I really believe this is a phenomenon that is not just a coincidence. I believe with all my heart that HaShem has His Hand in it, and that we have been drawn together for a purpose.we can learn, study and pray together and for one another, we can agree or disagree, (and in so doing agree to disagree) as we travel along this path, but we need one another.iron after all sharpens iron.and we can know that HaShem will indeed clear things up for us in the end.and it will all be okay So please reconsider your decision, Sandra.stick with us.you don't have to be alone. With love and shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Inglis Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:52 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Omer - Please read - from my heart to yours! Shalom Betty, I am addressing this to Betty as it is in answer to her post, but what I am saying is for everyone. If my words have offended anyone on this list I apologise. It seems that my words have offended you. For this I apologise. It was not my intention to offend. Even though my post was addressed to you Betty, what I said was not intended as critisism towards you. The only reason I addressed the post to you is because I was replying to your post. I am sure that you and everyone else on this list are seeking truth and that the desire of your hearts is to please YeHoWaH. What I wrote was not a personal attack on anyone. I am sorry that it came across this way. I was just trying to express my beliefs and explain why I think we should pray about when to keep YeHoWaH's Holy Days. I was not aware that you had prayed about this before in the past, and as Stephen asked that we pray for wisdom and guidance to know the will of YeHoWaH I was suggesting what I thought was the most important thing we should be praying about at this time. I did not mean to offend anyone or judge anyone. I am not saying that my beliefs are more accurate than yours or anyone else's. What I am saying is since none of us really know for sure when to keep the Passover or to start the count that we should pray about it, as I believe this is really important. I would like to have the same beliefs as all of you. I hate being alone in my beliefs, but I can not compromise my beliefs just so I can fit in with everyone else. I wish I could. Things would be so much simpler. I also hate controversy, but unless I can say what I believe to be the truth I might as well say nothing at all. What I said was how I feel about everyone having different opinions. I am not saying my opinions are better than yours. I am not really sure that what I believe is truth or if I have been deceived that is why I believe the only way we can know for sure what is truth is if YeHoWaH reveals it to us. Maybe He won't answer us and give us all the same understanding, but maybe He will. It is my opinion, and I am not saying this to be judgemental, that none of us really know what the truth is, I include myself in this, and I for one would like to know the truth and be in unity with you all on this matter. It may be that we will have to wait until Elijah or the Messiah comes to teach us the truth. I feel so alone in my beliefs and I don't feel I belong in this group. It is so hard for me. I am afraid to say what I believe, because I know most of you will not agree with me and it seems to me that because I don't believe as you all do, when I post my beliefs, you all take it as criticism or a personal attack on your beliefs. This is certainly not my intention. I do not mean to be judgemental. I am only expressing things as I see them. I am sorry if this offends anyone. It might be best if I say nothing and leave this group. Shalom to you all. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/575d6c18/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 19 02:01:58 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:01:58 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sunday Shul Message-ID: <1394014719-1240124378-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-60704446-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thanks for all of the kind words that many of you have written me both privately and publicly about the weekly teachings. I am SO excited about our gathering next weekend! I would also like to encourage all of you to listen in live tomorrow evening if you can. I can honestly say, having just now closed my notebook and bible that this class may be one of my most insightful and inspirational messages ever! I wish I could teach it now! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 19 10:20:49 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 11:20:49 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FLOOD IN THE DESERT. In-Reply-To: <49EA41B7.6040501@westnet.com.au> References: <49EA41B7.6040501@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Joe, this was so beautiful! I found myself inching closer and closer to my computer's screen as I watched it unfold. I was being drawn into HaShem's outpouring on a dry and thirsty land. Finally I realized that I was so close my eyes could no longer bring the video into focus! Watching the result of His RAIN sweep down upon the Midbar was like witnessing a Miracle firsthand. I once had a vision of being down below, and looking up to the top of a great plateau, then seeing what we just witnessed on this video, only multiplied many times over. The whole top of the plateau suddenly erupted into one great waterfall. It completely overswept me down below, but instead of killing me, I was walking around in it (like you do in deep water when you take great big steps and feel like you are walking in slow motion). It was completely over my head, but I was just walking around in it! We are so blessed to be alive at this Time! May the RAIN of HaShem soak each and every one of us, and may His resultant, overflowing Flood, reach the extremities of the Earth, until every last drop of Hellenistic "Dead Sea" is brought to T'Shuva. There is something about the Midbar (Desert) of Yisrael that is so alive and pregnant with promise! It is a thrilling place! Even a single flower blooming in His Desert is an overwhelmingly poignant sight. BARUCH HASHEM FOR HIS GLORIOUS RAIN!!!!!! Thank you, Joe! Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 5:10 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] FLOOD IN THE DESERT. Shavua Tov Chaverim, a friend of mine who lives in the Negev sent me this clip of the soaking rains that drenched the parched land of the Judean Midbar last March. Avigail, this one is especially for you. It is truely amazing. I cannot but wonder the spiritual significance, seeing that one of the streams that flow Ein Gedi is called "Nachal David" or the Stream of David. Ein Gedi is where David hid during his escape from Shaul. What makes this scene so amazing is the collision of the fresh water from the flood into the Dead Sea. It conjures up many spiritual images. The fountain of David of grace and supplication. The living waters that come from Yerushalayim that flows into the Great Sea and the Dead Sea. The living waters that revive our spiritually barren hearts and causes the Dead Sea, the lowest point on Earth , to come alive through Teshuva. Keep in mind that Eretz Yisrael has endured an incredibly harsh drought. This I feel is only a taste of better thing to come, b'Ezrat HaShem. http://wejew.com/media/4040/Flash-Flood-in-Nahal-David----/ Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/de02181b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Apr 19 12:30:08 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 13:30:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Tentative Program for UIWU April 24-26th 66th Anniversary Meeting Message-ID: <6C147A3D-1A70-45B0-B5BF-7EDC34D8FAB9@earthlink.net> I have pasted in here, as well as attached, our tentative program for our upcoming United Israel meeting next weekend here in Charlotte, NC. We will distribute a final printed version at Registration on Friday afternoon. This year we will have fewer scheduled events and more generous break times and open times. All our regular program events are at the Doubletree Hotel. For our Saturday afternoon and evening special events (Open House at UIWU offices and the Music Program) we will distribute maps and arrange transportation through car pooling. These meeting are open to the public and there is no registration charge. We ask that those who attend contribute what they can toward our costs. James Tabor P.S. Ross, can you please send this to your ROF list and post it on your Web site? Also, if you have any update from Dave and Brian on the idea of live broadcasts over the Internet please pass it on. 66th Anniversary Annual Meeting April 24-26, 2008 Doubletree Guest Suites/SouthPark Charlotte, North Carolina Meetings at the Doubletree are in Barringer 3-4 Friday, April 24th 5:00pm Registration and Welcome 7:00pm Welcoming Shabbat: Candle Lighting and Kiddush 7:30pm Celebrating 65 Years of United Israel World Union: James Tabor Sabbath, April 25th 9:30am The Three Greatest Chapters of the Hebrew Bible: James Tabor 11:00am Our Incredible American Hebrew Heritage: Ralph Buntyn Noon Break and Open Time 2:30pm Amazing Treasures of the Mishnah: Joseph Good 5:00pm Open House at the UIWU Offices: Archive Display & Reception Torah Reading and Havdalah 8:00pm After Hours: Musical Program with David & Patty Tyler, their band, and our talented musical performers at the Hampton Inn nearby Sunday, April 26th 9:00am UIWU 66th Annual Business Meeting Presidential Address by James Tabor: Presiding: Ralph Buntyn 10:00am The Three Greatest Chapters of the Hebrew Bible: Ross Nichols Noon Break and Open Time 2:30pm ?Let Him Go Up?: Connecting to Israel in our Time: Hanoch Young with John and Carin Carlson 4:00pm A Surprise Announcement: James Tabor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/28599e2b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Speakers&TopicsUIWUApril09.doc Type: application/msword Size: 41984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/28599e2b/attachment.doc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/28599e2b/attachment-0001.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 14:59:57 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 12:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Darrell Scott Speaks to Congress Message-ID: <511470.38825.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: "Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere, And ask the question "Why?" You regulate restrictive laws, Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is what we need! " Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!" Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech.. Please send this out to everyone you can. To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 19 16:11:26 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:11:26 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] PESACH SEDER WITH A TWIST.] Message-ID: <49EB937E.2010501@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/85bde9f2/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: kim alvarado Subject: Re: [Dialogue] PESACH SEDER WITH A TWIST. Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:46:49 -0500 Size: 6568 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/85bde9f2/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 19 16:20:51 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:20:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience] Message-ID: <49EB95B3.3030909@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/2d3fcbc3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: kim alvarado Subject: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:44:42 -0500 Size: 11624 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/2d3fcbc3/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 19 16:33:51 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:33:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Obama Deception] Message-ID: <49EB98BF.7070504@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/a42bbea6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: cody oneill Subject: [Dialogue] RE: Obama Deception Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Size: 5038 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/a42bbea6/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Apr 19 18:21:53 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 09:21:53 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Message-ID: <49EBB211.7000808@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/da815dab/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22! Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 22:53:46 -0500 Size: 88720 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/da815dab/attachment.eml From rndavar at aol.com Sun Apr 19 19:33:08 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:33:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: <1394014719-1240124378-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-60704446-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1394014719-1240124378-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-60704446-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <8CB8F66B666AD91-BF0-D11@webmail-df01.sysops.aol.com> My class on Tazria / Metzora is up on my site for those that are interested. Shalom www.rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts Ross -----Original Message----- From: Ross Nichols To: Dialogue List ; United Israel Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:01 am Subject: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks for all of the kind words that many of you have written me both privately and publicly about the weekly teachings. I am SO excited about our gathering next weekend! I would also like to encourage all of you to listen in live tomorrow evening if you can. I can honestly say, having just now closed my notebook and bible that this class may be one of my most insightful and inspirational messages ever! I wish I could teach it now! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/f97020ab/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Sun Apr 19 19:50:32 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: Obama Deception] Message-ID: <550131.15016.qm@web37305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting this Joe. Cody To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 22:52:04 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:52:04 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] In-Reply-To: <49EBB211.7000808@westnet.com.au> References: <49EBB211.7000808@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904192052h1c38935r60d12157d7dbaf45@mail.gmail.com> Joe, I am much too tired to absorb all of this tonight, but I read it through. I need to sleep on it and read it through tomorrow to digest it. I have other candle/light stories to share, but am not sure yet how to put them into words. Kim On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 6:21 PM, JOE INDOMENICO wrote: > *Shalom Cara Elisheva and Kim, > > first of all I hope I did not confuse you, as I posted this article in > response to Betty Eddy. > > But then again, HaShem works in mysterious ways. > Obviously you and Kim had been sharing Psalm 18 and 2Samuel 22 in light > (pun intended) of the candle experience. > > I, on the other hand had posted Psalm 18 in view of the tremendous > darkness that the entire globe is engulfed in at the moment and the need of > the light of Torah . > > I have always equated Psalm 18 or the "Song of David" as the battle cry of > Yehudah in its time of need. > This is the song of Mashiach ben David. > > On the other hand, I have always equated Psalm 118 as the battle cry of > Yosef, the rejected one and the imagery of light and the one who "scales > the wall." > This is the song of Mashiach ben Yosef. > > Now the difference in numbers is not just 100. > The number 18 represents "chai" or life. > If we add 1, aleph which is the first letter of "Elohim " we get "Eholim > lives." > Now, Shema Yisrael, YHVH, ELOHEINU, YHVH ECHAD or ONE. > > After the post of your daughter, Kim and her candle experience together > with your comment regarding Psalm 18, it had me thinking. I meditated on the > musings of Kim regarding the tribes and the her personal relationship with > Jana. > I slept on it. > > Then , very early this morning , after a very sleepless night due to > personal body pain, it hit me. > Kim, there is a lot of truth in what you shared. HaShem bless you !!!! > Your experience of : > * > The symbolic candle? As I said Jana lit the candles. After the blessing, > Skipper told me to look at the flame. The wick of one of the candles had > split into two so that there were two separate flames. One of the wick > halves then "laid down" and went out. The other half slowly burned down and > then re-lit the other half. Once again there were two flames. The flames > continued to burned until they became one again. All I could think was > Baruch HaShem, this is what is really happening with the Tribes, and I'm > part of it. BARUCH HASHEM! > > *There is a much more hidden meaning to your candle experience. > One that I feel with all my heart and aching body to be the core of your > experience. > This is taken from a Jewish source. > ** > * > > Until now we have merely proven that, according to the Torah, Mashiach can > *potentially* be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'. However, many might find it > interesting to note that several Torah sources would seem to indicate that > not only *can *Mashiach die and be resurrected before he redeems the > Jewish people, but that the process *will* necessarily be so. > > *Two Moshiachs or One?* > > Some may have come across Talmudic literature that speaks of the notion > that our final exile will actually be completed by *two* Messianic > redeemers. One is known as 'Mashiach ben Yosef' and the other-'Mashiach ben > Dovid '. Each one is charged with his own unique mission. While, > admittedly, much ambiguity surrounds some of the details of this concept, we > provide here a general picture that emerges from the primary sources > regarding these two Mashiachs. Also included is a synopsis of the events > that will surround their arrival. > > Here we go: > > -*Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise > among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign > of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will > bring many Jews back to Torah ways*. > > Responsum of Rabbi Hai Gaon in Otzar Hagaonim based on Succah 52a > > *-Mashiach Ben Yosef will teach Penimiyut HaTorah [essential (secrets) of > the Torah], reach out to non-Jews, and, in general, begin the preparations > for the redemption.* > > *Kol HaTor, Ch. 2 par. 75- a collection of the views of the Vilna Gaon > regarding the redemption, see also Iyun Yaakov on Eruvin 43:A* > > *-However, he will die before he completes the process * > > Gemara-Succah 52:A > > *-At that point, a period of darkness and confusion will ensue. The > nations of the world, particularly Yishmael, will descend upon Israel, and > Jerusalem in particular. When the situation seems hopeless, Mashiach ben > Dovid will appear to resurrect Mashiach ben Yosef, and the process of > redemption will be completed by them both * > > Kol Hator Ch. 2:2, 4:1 > > While some may be familiar with these traditions, many will be surprised to > learn that according most sources, Mashiach Ben David and Mashiach Ben > Yosef are not two separate Mashiachs at all. According to such notables > as Rav Chaim Vital, Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yosef are merely * > terms* that represent different aspects of one and the same individual!(NOTE: See Sefer Chizyonos p. 106). If we reanalyze the above sources > bearing in mind that the two Mashiachs are actually one and the same, we are > left with the following scenario: One Mashiach will arise to prepare the > world for redemption for forty years after which he will die, only to return > in resurrection to complete the job. Here we find not only the possibility, > but the assertion that Mashiach will be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'. > > Other Torah sources are in agreement that, indeed, the process of > redemption *will* unfold with the passing and subsequent resurrection of > Mashiach. A most explicit source is found in the Zohar, (NOTE: Considered > to be the basis of all Kabbalistic literature) which states: > > ?*Since this lower plateau lacks ?life? [manifestation of G-dliness], this > Mashiach must die?He will remain dead until this plateau receives 'life' > from the higher plateau, at which point he will rise and come to life...*? > > *Balak 203b.* > > While concepts presented in these sources may seem novel to many, some > readers are no doubt are wondering: "If the Torah condones the belief that > Mashiach can die and be resurrected, why is mention only made *now* about > it?" In response, may we suggest that the observant Jew may actually have > been making mention of this concept three times a day, everyday, whether > s/he realizes it or not. How so? We turn our sights to the second Blessing > of the Shmona Esrei also known as the 'Amida'. In our praise of G-d during > this prayer we recite: > > ?*Who is like you? A king who makes die and makes live and causes > deliverance to sprout forth? [Heb.?Melech Meimis U?Mechaye U?Matzmiach > Yeshuah?]*. > > In light of the fact that 'deliverance sprouting forth' is commonly used > reference to the arrival of King Mashiach (NOTE: see Isaiah 11:1), we can't > help but notice an interesting order of the phrases here. > > The general resurrection of the Jewish people is known to be an event which > will occur well *after* the arrival of Mashiach (Note: See Zohar > I-139:A). Yet the *Anshei Knesset Hagedolah *(NOTE: 'The Men of Great > Assembly', who were also compliers of the Jewish prayers) placed the words ? > *makes die and makes live*?-*resurrection* prior to the phrase regarding > ?deliverance sprouting forth?-*arrival of Mashiach*. Why the backwards > order? Whose resurrection is taking place before Moshiach has even arrived? > > It light of the above information it is no stretch to assume that the only > individual who would need to be resurrected before the arrival of Mashiach > is none other than Mashiach himself! This is, after all, a scenario > sanctioned by the Talmud and the Rambam, and is even predicted by the likes > R' Chaim Vital and the *Zohar*. (NOTE: Many sources indicate that > although the resurrection of the Jewish people as a whole will take place > well after Moshiach's arrival, resurrection for special individuals can and > will take place before that time. See *Tosefot* in *Pesachim* 114:B and * > Sedei* *Chemed* *Kuntret* *Haclallim* *Mareches* 40 Os 218 and the sources > which are brought there.) > > Considering that Jews have recited this prayer for thousands of years on a > thrice-daily basis, it is becomes increasingly difficult to claim that no > recent mention has been made of the concept. However, even was this not > this case; even if one could devise some other interpretation of the prayer, > it would all be irrelevant. The Torah sources quoted above are timeless. > They apply today just as much as they did when they were written. It is well > known, that the process of rendering a Torah decision has nothing to do with > public awareness, but everything to do with what the legitimate sources say > about the topic. In truth, even if no one in the entire generation had ever > heard of these sources this wouldn't for one moment change the fact that the > notion of a 'Resurrected Redeemer is a Torah sanctioned position, and it > always will be. > > *This treatise was compiled by the Chabad.* > > *There is another element to be considered. > * > > The past two weeks we have discussed Biblical, Talmudic and mystical > passages testifying that, according to Jewish tradition, part of the process > for the revelation of Mashiach includes a period of intense suffering and > severe illness for Mashiach. Two basic reasons have been offered by the > scholars. Last week, we considered the first, that Mashiach, as a leader, > was intimately tied to, responsible for and affected by the actions his > people. > > The second reason for Mashiach's illness concerns Mashiach himself, how an > individual becomes the king and Redeemer of the Jewish people and, after > that, all mankind. The process of becoming Mashiach represents a > transformation of the individual. In order for Mashiach to move to the next > stage, he must, in a sense, cease being who he was. As with any change in > an individual's status - whether an alteration in external circumstances or > the internal trauma of the stages of life - Mashiach's metamorphosis from > simply being a wise and holy man to the actual king and redeemer involves an > upheaval, an imbalance. > > For this reason, the time of the coming of Mashiach is often referred to as > the "birthpangs of Mashiach," for just as the labor and delivery of a > newborn involves a tremendous, difficult struggle, so, too the emergence of > Mashiach may well require a painful disruption of previous conditions, > leading to confusion, agitation and disorder. Naturally, this convulsion > would affect both the generation - and Mashiach himself. > > Rabbi Schneur Zalman, known as the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chabad > Chassidism, explains, in a brief but insightful discourse, why there is > upheaval before Mashiach is fully revealed, and what his illness will be > like. The Jewish people are considered one entity, one body - a complete > individual. Each and every Jew, he says, has a unique function, a Divine > service particular to that person alone, whether of an intellectual, > emotional or physical nature. Without each and every individual, the Jewish > people would not be whole. What affects one, affects all. *Hence the > ingathering of the lost sheep of Beit Yisrael. Geulah can only be achieved > for all, not just one house. It is all or nothing.* > > Naturally, however, what happens to the head has the most far-reaching > repercussions; and the consequences of , G-d forbid, an injury elsewhere are > measured in the head, so to speak. By analogy, what happens to the > individual who is the head, the leader of the generation, will happen to the > generation itself. And what befalls the generation, will befall the leader. > That is, the leader of the generation, but particularly Mashiach, is the > microcosmic reflection of the macrocosmic situation and experience of the > generation. > > Now, when a soul occupies a body, it "dwells," so to speak, in the brain, > and from there guides the limbs in an orderly fashion. There is peace > between each of the parts. Each organ performs its function, responding to > the directions of the soul. But when, G-d forbid, there is a problem in the > brain, when the blood cannot flow back and forth properly, this spreads to > all the other limbs and their functions and situations become confused. When > the head is so afflicted, the limbs of the body cannot respond properly. > There is a numbness, an inability of the body and mind to communicate; > indeed, though the mind may be active, though each individual organ - heart, > liver, etc. - may be healthy and working, nevertheless the individual seems > to be in a coma, apparently detached and disconnected from the outside > world. > > This condition of apparently internal paralysis or bewilderment and outer > unconsciousness has a parallel in the state of the Jewish people at the time > of greatest darkness and coldness. That is, just as the deepest blackness of > the night occurs just before the emergence of the dawn, so too the disarray > among the Jewish people - the inability to abide another's Divine service, > though performed according to Jewish law, the entanglement of good and evil, > is strongest. just before Mashiach. > > For, the Alter Rebbe points out, there is sometimes a need for this chaos > and bewilderment, painful and difficult as it is for the individual enduring > it, or the Jewish people experiencing it. Sometimes when the G-dly light, > the Divine soul, needs to shine forth, to be revealed, in a categorically > new form and manner, then, just as the darkness thickens before the light, > or labor is most intense before birth - just as all attention and effort > focuses on the profound transformational struggle - so too, within the > individual there will be a great confusion and internal dissension. The > transition - the great difference - between the old and the new spiritual > status may require a traumatic internal upheaval, and a consequent seclusion > and isolation from the outside world. > * > But after the darkness, there is light. After the birthpangs, there is a > new life. And after the transformational sickness, there will be Mashiach, > the King and Redeemer, who will harmonize, transform and spiritually elevate > his generation, the one that will have knowledge of the Lord as the waters > cover the seabed. > > **This I hope answers many questions that are affecting our spiritual, > national and personal lives. > > May 118 and 18 become ECHAD . > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE. > * > * > * > > Joe, thank you for all that you have been sending! I have not yet had a > chance to read all of them and have not yet watched the video, but as I read > your post, I noticed that you quoted Psalms 18. A few days ago, Kim and I > were discussing that the Hertz Commentary mentions Psalms 18 as connected > with II Sam 22, which is the Haftarah Reading for the Seventh Day of > Pesach. When I turned to read Psalms 18, I was amazed to find that these > two chapters with the exception of a difference in a word or two are almost > identical to one another; they both even have the same number of verses! > > It seems that this message must be quite significant for it to be repeated > twice in its entirety in the Tanakh! > > > > Shavuah tov, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:33 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Fwd: [Dialogue] Israel preparing massive strike on Iran] > > > > *Shalom Betty, > > this source of information comes as no surprise, except for its timing. > The original intent was to commence this delicate operation in the twilight > days of the Bush Administration before the new Obama Administration took > office. > > Since then we have seen incredible overtures from the Obama Machine towards > Iran, Syria, Turkey, Cuba and Venezuela, just to mention a few. All within > the first quarter of government. > There has been a relentless march towards breaking many of the election > promises. > > It now seems that the Obama Administration is not only a continuation of > the previous administration but has endorsed many of the political failures > of the Bush Administration. > > You and Cody spoke about Gerald Celente and the possible mayhem that will > ensue. > I have restrained to this point about whether to post the 2 hour > documentary that I have attached because I did not want to upset political > sensitivities. > I cannot restrain any further. > The pace of world geopolitical change is changing at breakneck and > lightning speed. > This has been building for quite some time but as the Holy Scriptures state > the "Birth Pangs of Mashiach" will accelerate as the contractions become > more frequent and more severe. HaShem have mercy on us. > > This documentary shows the background and the core issues at stake. > What concerns me most however is the plight of HaShem's nation, Israel. > > Just surmising here. > I read in the past that Bibi Netanyahu was a CFR man. I cannot track the > article. If anyone knows , I would greatly appreciate the source. > Just like 2000 years ago , there was a traitor at the table. > Just like 2000 years ago, it was expedient that one man die for the sake of > the nation. > > Is this an indictment on our current crisis?? > Could the New Order be using Yisrael as the scapegoat to galvanize world > opinion and condemnation against her. > If Yisrael were to attack Iran, then the outcome would be obvious. > This single factor alone would be the straw that broke the camel's back. > > What better way for the world to unite against her in the confederacy of > East (Yismael) and West( Christendom) of the Gog u Magog of Ezekiel. > What better way for the prophecy of Zechariyah 12 to unfold. > > I would be freaking out if I did not have the steadfast and true word of > HaShem. > > We are indeed in for a very rocky road indeed. > Please do not see this video as an attack on the good and beautiful peoples > of the Western world but a serious attack on the modern day Pharaohical > Oligarchs that are trying one last push in wresting control from HaShem. > A rereading of Psalm 2 is definitely in order to better understand the > current crisis. > > May Mashiach come speedily and in our day to set the captives free. > Shelah !!!!* > *Psalms Chapter 18* > > *?* ???????????, ??????? ??????--???????: > ?????? ???????, ???????, ???-????????, ?????????? ???????-- > ??????? ???????-?????? ?????? ?????? ????-????????, ???????? ???????. > > *1* For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David the servant of the LORD, *{N}* > who spoke unto the LORD the words of this song *{N}* > in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, > and from the hand of Saul; > > *?* ?????????-- ?????????? ?????? ???????. > > *2* And he said: I love thee, O LORD, my strength. > > *?* ??????, ??????? ????????????-- ???????????: > ????? ??????, ???????-????; ???????? ???????-????????, ????????????. > > *3* The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; *{N}* > my God, my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, > my high tower. > > *?* ????????, ??????? ??????; ?????-???????, ??????????. > > *4* Praised, I cry, is the LORD, and I am saved from mine enemies. > > *?* ?????????? ???????-?????; ????????? ?????????? ????????????. > > *5* The cords of Death compassed me, and the floods of Belial assailed me. > > *?* ??????? ??????? ??????????; ???????????, ????????? ?????. > > *6* The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me. > > *?* ???????-???, ??????? ??????-- ?????-??????? ??????????: > ???????? ?????????? ??????; ????????????, ???????? ??????? ??????????. > > *7* In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God; *{N}* > out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry came before Him unto His > ears. > > *?* ??????????? ???????????, ???????-- ?????????? ?????? ??????????; > ????????????????, ????-????? ???. > > *8* Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations also of the > mountains did tremble; *{N}* > they were shaken, because He was wroth. > > *?* ????? ??????, ?????????-- ??????-??????? ???????; > ?????????, ???????? ?????????. > > *9* Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; > *{N}* > coals flamed forth from Him. > > *?* ?????? ????????, ????????; ?????????, ?????? ????????. > > *10* He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was > under His feet. > > *??* ??????????? ???-???????, ????????; ????????, ???-????????-?????. > > *11* And He rode upon a cherub, and did fly; yea, He did swoop down upon > the wings of the wind. > > *??* ?????? ???????, ???????-- ???????????? ????????; > ????????-?????, ????? ?????????. > > *12* He made darkness His hiding-place, His pavilion round about Him; *{N} > * > darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies. > > *??* ?????????, ????????: ?????? ???????--??????, ?????????-????. > > *13* At the brightness before Him, there passed through His thick clouds > hailstones and coals of fire. > > *??* ?????????? ????????????, ??????--??????????, ?????? ?????; > ??????, ?????????-????. > > *14* The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Most High gave forth > His voice; hailstones and coals of fire. > > *??* ??????????? ???????, ??????????; ?????????? ???, ??????????. > > *15* And He sent out His arrows, and scattered them; and He shot forth > lightnings, and discomfited them. > > *??* ??????????, ???????? ?????, ???????????, ????????? ??????: > ????????????? ??????-- ???????????, ????? ???????. > > *16* And the channels of waters appeared, and the foundations of the world > were laid bare, *{N}* > at Thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of Thy nostrils. > > *??* ???????? ?????????, ??????????; ??????????, ???????? ???????. > > *17* He sent from on high, He took me; He drew me out of many waters. > > *??* ???????????, ????????? ???; ?????????????, ????-??????? > ?????????. > > *18* He delivered me from mine enemy most strong, and from them that hated > me, for they were too mighty for me. > > *??* ????????????? ??????-??????; ???????-?????? ?????????? ???. > > *19* They confronted me in the day of my calamity; but the LORD was a stay > unto me. > > *?* ?????????????? ??????????; ????????????, ???? ????? ????. > > *20* He brought me forth also into a large place; He delivered me, because > He delighted in me. > > *??* ??????????? ?????? ??????????; ?????? ?????, ??????? ???. > > *21* The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the > cleanness of my hands hath He recompensed me. > > *??* ????-???????????, ???????? ??????; ?????-???????????, ?????????. > > *22* For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed > from my God. > > *??* ???? ???-???????????? ??????????; ???????????, ???-?????? ??????. > > > *23* For all His ordinances were before me, and I put not away His > statutes from me. > > *??* ??????? ?????? ??????; ??????????????, ??????????. > > *24* And I was single-hearted with Him, and I kept myself from mine > iniquity. > > *??* ?????????-?????? ??? ?????????; ?????? ?????, ??????? ???????. > > *25* Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, > according to the cleanness of my hands in His eyes. > > *??* ???-?????? ???????????; ???-?????? ???????, ??????????. > > *26* With the merciful Thou dost show Thyself merciful, with the upright > man Thou dost show Thyself upright; > > *??* ???-????? ???????????; ?????-???????, ????????????. > > *27* With the pure Thou dost show Thyself pure; and with the crooked Thou > dost show Thyself subtle. > > *??* ????-??????, ???-????? ?????????; ?????????? ?????? ???????????. > > *28* For Thou dost save the afflicted people; but the haughty eyes Thou > dost humble. > > *??* ????-??????, ??????? ?????; ?????? ???????, ????????? ?????????. > > *29* For Thou dost light my lamp; the LORD my God doth lighten my > darkness. > > *?* ????-????, ????? ???????; ??????????, ????????-?????. > > *30* For by Thee I run upon a troop; and by my God do I scale a wall. > > *??* ?????, ??????? ?????????: > ???????-?????? ????????; ????? ????, ????? ???????? ????. > > *31* As for God, His way is perfect; *{N}* > the word of the LORD is tried; He is a shield unto all them that take > refuge in Him. > > *??* ???? ??? ????????, ???????????? ??????; ????? ????, ???????? > ??????????. > > *32* For who is God, save the LORD? And who is a Rock, except our God? > > *??* ?????, ?????????????? ?????; ????????? ??????? ?????????. > > *33* The God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way straight; > > *??* ????????? ???????, ????????????; ????? ????????, ????????????. > > *34* Who maketh my feet like hinds', and setteth me upon my high places; > > *??* ???????? ?????, ????????????; ????????? ??????-?????????, > ??????????. > > *35* Who traineth my hands for war, so that mine arms do bend a bow of > brass. > > *??* ?????????-???, ????? ?????????: ?????????? ???????????; > ???????????? ??????????. > > *36* Thou hast also given me Thy shield of salvation, and Thy right hand > hath holden me up; and Thy condescension hath made me great. > > *??* ????????? ??????? ????????; ????? ???????, ??????????. > > *37* Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, and my feet have not slipped. > > *??* ????????? ????????, ????????????; ?????-???????, ???-??????????. > > *38* I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them; neither did I turn > back till they were consumed. > > *??* ?????????, ?????-??????? ????; ????????, ?????? ???????. > > *39* I have smitten them through, so that they are not able to rise; they > are fallen under my feet. > > *?* ??????????????? ?????, ????????????; ?????????? ????? ?????????. > > *40* For Thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle; Thou hast > subdued under me those that rose up against me. > > *??* ?????????, ???????? ???? ?????; ????????????, ??????????. > > *41* Thou hast also made mine enemies turn their backs unto me, and I did > cut off them that hate me. > > *??* ??????????? ??????-?????????; ???-??????, ????? ?????. > > *42* They cried, but there was none to save; even unto the LORD, but He > answered them not. > > *??* ????????????, ???????? ???-??????-?????; ??????? ??????? > ????????. > > *43* Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind; I did cast > them out as the mire of the streets. > > *??* ?????????????, ????????-???: ????????????, ??????? ???????; ??? > ???-?????????? ????????????. > > *44* Thou hast delivered me from the contentions of the people; Thou hast > made me the head of the nations; a people whom I have not known serve me. > > *??* ???????? ?????, ??????????? ???; ??????-?????, ??????????-???. > > *45* As soon as they hear of me, they obey me; the sons of the stranger > dwindle away before me. > > *??* ??????-????? ????????; ???????????, ???????????????????. > > *46* The sons of the stranger fade away, and come trembling out of their > close places. > > *??* ???-??????, ????????? ??????; ????????, ???????? ????????. > > *47* The LORD liveth, and blessed be my Rock; and exalted be the God of my > salvation; > > *??* ?????--????????? ???????? ???; ??????????? ??????? ?????????. > > *48* Even the God that executeth vengeance for me, and subdueth peoples > under me. > > *??* ??????????, ?????????: ??? ???-?????, ?????????????; ??????? > ?????, ????????????. > > *49* He delivereth me from mine enemies; yea, Thou liftest me up above > them that rise up against me; Thou deliverest me from the violent man. > > *?* ???-????, ??????? ????????? ??????; ??????????? ??????????. > > *50* Therefore I will give thanks unto Thee, O LORD, among the nations, > and will sing praises unto Thy name. > > *??* ????????, ?????????? ????????: > ???????? ?????, ???????????--??????? ???????????; ???-??????. > > *51* Great salvation giveth He to His king; *{N}* > and showeth mercy to His anointed, to David and to his seed, for evermore. > *{P}* > > > *Now for the movie. > *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw&feature=related* > > Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE.* > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090419/b404fd32/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Apr 20 07:01:29 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:01:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Message-ID: Joe, Having come across this several years ago, I have been puzzled by the "forty years". Do you have... What are your thoughts on how to understand the 40 years? -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/a6b90dd5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 20 07:28:04 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:28:04 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] per John's request: Candle experience In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904182144x3ef7551dqaeeb078255cdf76f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <042020091228.18997.49EC6A53000B7E7F00004A3522230706129B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Kim, Betty and all, Thanks for sharing your story Kim, mist excellent! I can't wait to see you guys this weekend in Charlotte. Betty, we'll have to set aside some time to swap candle stories during the weekend. I'm sure there are others out there with stories to share. Joe your post about Machiach relative to Kim's candle story was great, thanks. Shavua Tov. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from kim alvarado : -------------- Below is the original email that I shared with John Carlson and others. My first thought is what I shared below_that being that the candle represented the tribes. What I didn't share (and was pointed out by someone else who is welcome to share his thoughts) is that it has a deeper, more personal meaning for myself and for Jana. I think the deeper meaning is that my daughter might fall away, but that I must keep the light of Torah burning within myself to kindle the lights in others. Another interesting development tonight, I was doing an internet search on something totally unrelated and mistyped something in my search. A post came up from someone in my area wanting to start a group interested in learning the Noahide Laws. I emailed and got a response very quickly. As is turns out the person (woman) that posted the ad is an Orthodox woman living very close to me. She just moved to the area and wants to start a new group or even individual studies. Shavua Tov! Kim Shalom, I'm simply overflowing with the joy of last night's community seder and wanted to share it with you all. The kids and I attended a Community Seder hosted by a local Chavarah. A little background...my daughter Jana (15) has not been interested in Israel, Torah, or anything else along those lines. I light Sabbath candles every week with the kids, we have dinner, and then she does her own thing. She respects my wanting to keep Sabbath, but does not understand and wishes I were just a "normal" mom. On a whim last week I decided that I was going to attend a Jewish seder in my area and that I would ask Jana to come. I found this Chavarah group (not officially reform, but seems to be along those lines) in my area. I called and made Seder reservations. I was a little apprehensive, especially after our Family Seder the night before, when Jana jokingly told me she guesses she's the "wicked child". I even went so far as to tell her she didn't have to go if she didn't want to. She said she's go because she knew it was important to me. It turned out that the Seder was held right down the road from my house in one of the buildings at a Catholic Church...also where they rent a room to meet for Sabbath services. I could go on and on, but to cut it short, the Rabbi was very warm and welcoming, as were the other members of the group. Jana knew a few of the kids from school. We sat next to one of the families who's son attended Jana's school. My not-so-"wicked" child lit the candles as the other kids at our section of the table asked her to, said the blessing, told me how much better this was than last night, and was singing "Dayenu" by the end of the night. We'll see what we will see...perhaps a spark was lit. The symbolic candle? As I said Jana lit the candles. After the blessing, Skipper told me to look at the flame. The wick of one of the candles had split into two so that there were two separate flames. One of the wick halves then "laid down" and went out. The other half slowly burned down and then re-lit the other half. Once again there were two flames. The flames continued to burned until they became one again. All I could think was Baruch HaShem, this is what is really happening with the Tribes, and I'm part of it. BARUCH HASHEM! Love to you all...Shabbat Shalom, Kim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/c7273f3e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 08:39:32 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:39:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul In-Reply-To: <8CB8F66B666AD91-BF0-D11@webmail-df01.sysops.aol.com> References: <1394014719-1240124378-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-60704446-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <8CB8F66B666AD91-BF0-D11@webmail-df01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Ross! I was not able to listen in on Sunday evening, but hopefully will get a chance to catch it before I leave for Charlotte on Thursday.as always, I am looking forward to it! See you soon! Wondering which 3 chapters of the Hebrew Bible you and James are going to pick... Shavua tov, Elisheva/Betty ________________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:33 PM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul My class on Tazria / Metzora is up on my site for those that are interested. Shalom www.rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts Ross -----Original Message----- From: Ross Nichols To: Dialogue List ; United Israel Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:01 am Subject: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks for all of the kind words that many of you have written me both privately and publicly about the weekly teachings. I am SO excited about our gathering next weekend! I would also like to encourage all of you to listen in live tomorrow evening if you can. I can honestly say, having just now closed my notebook and bible that this class may be one of my most insightful and inspirational messages ever! I wish I could teach it now! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ ________________________________________ The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! From rndavar at aol.com Mon Apr 20 09:40:42 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:40:42 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Message-ID: <1576589600-1240238301-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-899513412-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Betty, I am keeping my three chapters secret until Sunday morning. I am only telling James;) it is part of the suspense and surprise of the conference. James and I both are really excited about these talks and I hope that people leave this conference feeling like they have participated in a Torah Faith revival of sorts! I can't wait to see everyone this weekend. Love and shalom, Ross ------Original Message------ From: Betty Givin Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue List ReplyTo: Dialogue List Sent: Apr 20, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks, Ross! I was not able to listen in on Sunday evening, but hopefully will get a chance to catch it before I leave for Charlotte on Thursday.as always, I am looking forward to it! See you soon! Wondering which 3 chapters of the Hebrew Bible you and James are going to pick... Shavua tov, Elisheva/Betty ________________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:33 PM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul My class on Tazria / Metzora is up on my site for those that are interested. Shalom www.rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts Ross -----Original Message----- From: Ross Nichols To: Dialogue List ; United Israel Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:01 am Subject: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks for all of the kind words that many of you have written me both privately and publicly about the weekly teachings. I am SO excited about our gathering next weekend! I would also like to encourage all of you to listen in live tomorrow evening if you can. I can honestly say, having just now closed my notebook and bible that this class may be one of my most insightful and inspirational messages ever! I wish I could teach it now! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ ________________________________________ The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From creechmargie at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 09:40:02 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Message-ID: <52285.49336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Marvin, I don't know if this is the answer to your question but it seemed to go along with what I pasted from the post below.? In a book I was given called Forty Years by Rabbi Meir Kahane.??He believes ?not only is the concept "forty"? tied to sin and punishment, it was specifically connected to the warning of G-d to the sinner, a warning designed to avert that punishment.? He goes on to say, "In the case of both Holy Temples, the Almighty gave the Jewish people a period of forty years of grace; time to think and rethink their ways.? Time to return to Him and save themselves from that punishment."??A time of grace for all who will return to Torah and HaShem. I personally think?Yeshua?is Mashiach ben Yosef (not G-d)?and he died before finishing the process, but he will finish it.?However, ?I don't believe all the pagan trash that has been passed down by our fathers about him.? All I know is that I could have cared less about G-d or His Torah and in an instant 25 years ago that all changed.?Yeshua brought me to G-d and His Torah.? Until the time comes when all our questions are answered, I will keep searching for truth.? G-d knows that?in my heart I only want His TRUTH.?Joe, thank you for this?post and I pray that you will get relief from?your pain. Margie ? -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people.? His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years.? In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. Responsum of Rabbi Hai Gaon in Otzar Hagaonim based on Succah 52a? -Mashiach Ben Yosef will teach Penimiyut HaTorah [essential (secrets) of the Torah], reach out to non-Jews, and, in general, begin the preparations for the redemption. Kol HaTor, Ch. 2 par. 75- a collection of the views of the Vilna Gaon regarding the redemption, see also Iyun Yaakov on Eruvin 43:A -However, he will die before he completes the process --- On Mon, 4/20/09, mhyde wrote: From: mhyde Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:01 AM ? Joe, Having come across this several years ago, I have been puzzled by the ?forty years?.??? Do you have?.. ??What are your thoughts on how to understand the 40 years? ??? ? -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people.? His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years.? In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. ? marvin_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/60e17592/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 10:21:23 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:21:23 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] The Conference! In-Reply-To: <1576589600-1240238301-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-899513412-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1576589600-1240238301-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-899513412-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <58E3BC5A546F4A77ACCCF325329DE487@bettylaptop> Thanks, Ross...changing the thread here. I know you have to keep your chapters a secret...that's good because that is definitely part of the suspense and the surprise. I do think that I might have guessed at least one of yours and one of James chapters, but not because I have gotten any information from James...but rather because I think I know the two of you pretty well...but we shall see. I have not even tried to get James to talk... As you stated, I think people will come away feeling like they have participated in a Torah faith festival. I feel like in the anticipation and the making plans to come that I will be participating in a Torah faith festival, and I hope others will as well. One day we will be gathering together in Yerushalyim for the festivals...the gathering together of all of us in Charlotte is a precursor of what is to come and I like to think of it as a rehearsal of sorts...with all of us coming from all parts of the U.S. to converge together in one place because we love HaShem and His Torah, His People and His Land! See you in a few days, HaShem willing! And may He grant us all safe travels. I will say the Wayfarer's Prayer for all of us...maybe some would like to join me. Love and Shalom back to you, Ross, and to all, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Ross Nichols Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:41 AM To: Dialogue List Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Betty, I am keeping my three chapters secret until Sunday morning. I am only telling James;) it is part of the suspense and surprise of the conference. James and I both are really excited about these talks and I hope that people leave this conference feeling like they have participated in a Torah Faith revival of sorts! I can't wait to see everyone this weekend. Love and shalom, Ross ------Original Message------ From: Betty Givin Sender: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org To: Dialogue List ReplyTo: Dialogue List Sent: Apr 20, 2009 8:39 AM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks, Ross! I was not able to listen in on Sunday evening, but hopefully will get a chance to catch it before I leave for Charlotte on Thursday.as always, I am looking forward to it! See you soon! Wondering which 3 chapters of the Hebrew Bible you and James are going to pick... Shavua tov, Elisheva/Betty ________________________________________ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of rndavar at aol.com Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:33 PM To: uilist at unitedisrael.org; dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: [UILIST] Sunday Shul My class on Tazria / Metzora is up on my site for those that are interested. Shalom www.rootsoffaith.org/blog-and-podcasts Ross -----Original Message----- From: Ross Nichols To: Dialogue List ; United Israel Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 2:01 am Subject: [UILIST] Sunday Shul Thanks for all of the kind words that many of you have written me both privately and publicly about the weekly teachings. I am SO excited about our gathering next weekend! I would also like to encourage all of you to listen in live tomorrow evening if you can. I can honestly say, having just now closed my notebook and bible that this class may be one of my most insightful and inspirational messages ever! I wish I could teach it now! Shalom, Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ UILIST mailing list UILIST at unitedisrael.org **** This is a private list. **** Do not forward or publish the messages from this list **** without permission from the person who wrote it. **** Visit www.unitedisrael.org * ************************************************ ________________________________________ The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! _______________________________________________ Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 11:00:44 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:00:44 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) #40 Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] In-Reply-To: <52285.49336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <52285.49336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting, Margie.thanks for your comments, and Joe, thanks for your post. I have not yet read it in its entirety.but plan on doing so. Regarding the number 40, there are all kinds of references to the number 40 in the teachings of our rabbis, and many of them do have to do with teshuvah (repentance).. there was of course the 40 years in the wilderness, the 40 days and nights Moses spent on the Mountain with HaShem (twice) when he received the Torah and the tablets written by the finger of HaShem, and also there are also 40 days of repentance beginning in the month of Elul and going thru Rosh Hashanah on 1 Tishrei and on up to Yom Kippur on 10 Tishrei . I have also read (I think in one of Ariyeh Kaplan's Book about the waters flowing from Gan Eden), that there are 40 seah's of water in the mikvah. There are also 40 weeks in the gestation period of the human embryo (not that there is any teshuvah needed here), but rather that the waters in the mikvah are to be reminiscent in returning us to our original state of purity as we humans emerge from the pure waters of the womb, which I found very meaningful. I also remember reading somewhere, but have been unable to verify, that the word compassion, rachum, and the word womb, (Heb ??) have the same root word. I have looked and cannot find my reference and the Hebrew on line dictionaries that I have pulled up do not have the info I am looking for. But at the time, I remember being very taken with the idea. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Margie Creech Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Marvin, I don't know if this is the answer to your question but it seemed to go along with what I pasted from the post below. In a book I was given called Forty Years by Rabbi Meir Kahane. He believes not only is the concept "forty" tied to sin and punishment, it was specifically connected to the warning of G-d to the sinner, a warning designed to avert that punishment. He goes on to say, "In the case of both Holy Temples, the Almighty gave the Jewish people a period of forty years of grace; time to think and rethink their ways. Time to return to Him and save themselves from that punishment." A time of grace for all who will return to Torah and HaShem. I personally think Yeshua is Mashiach ben Yosef (not G-d) and he died before finishing the process, but he will finish it. However, I don't believe all the pagan trash that has been passed down by our fathers about him. All I know is that I could have cared less about G-d or His Torah and in an instant 25 years ago that all changed. Yeshua brought me to G-d and His Torah. Until the time comes when all our questions are answered, I will keep searching for truth. G-d knows that in my heart I only want His TRUTH. Joe, thank you for this post and I pray that you will get relief from your pain. Margie -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. Responsum of Rabbi Hai Gaon in Otzar Hagaonim based on Succah 52a -Mashiach Ben Yosef will teach Penimiyut HaTorah [essential (secrets) of the Torah], reach out to non-Jews, and, in general, begin the preparations for the redemption. Kol HaTor, Ch. 2 par. 75- a collection of the views of the Vilna Gaon regarding the redemption, see also Iyun Yaakov on Eruvin 43:A -However, he will die before he completes the process --- On Mon, 4/20/09, mhyde wrote: From: mhyde Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:01 AM Joe, Having come across this several years ago, I have been puzzled by the "forty years". Do you have... What are your thoughts on how to understand the 40 years? -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. marvin _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/cd31422b/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 11:13:13 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:13:13 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel - Aerial Photography Message-ID: http://www.aboutisrael.co.il/heb/freepage.php?id=997 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/0a11ab28/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 12:35:28 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:35:28 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) #40 Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] In-Reply-To: References: <52285.49336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370904201035q4d5681eidc2675a3eef96a03@mail.gmail.com> Hi Betty - the word for womb is "rechem" * Hanoch * On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Betty Givin wrote: > Interesting, Margie?thanks for your comments, and Joe, thanks for your > post. I have not yet read it in its entirety?but plan on doing so. > > > > Regarding the number 40, there are all kinds of references to the number 40 > in the teachings of our rabbis, and many of them do have to do with teshuvah > (repentance).. there was of course the 40 years in the wilderness, the 40 > days and nights Moses spent on the Mountain with HaShem (twice) when he > received the Torah and the tablets written by the finger of HaShem, and > also there are also 40 days of repentance beginning in the month of Elul > and going thru Rosh Hashanah on 1 Tishrei and on up to Yom Kippur on 10 > Tishrei . > > > > I have also read (I think in one of Ariyeh Kaplan?s Book about the waters > flowing from Gan Eden), that there are 40 seah?s of water in the mikvah. > There are also 40 weeks in the gestation period of the human embryo (not > that there is any teshuvah needed here), but rather that the waters in the > mikvah are to be reminiscent in returning us to our original state of purity > as we humans emerge from the pure waters of the womb, which I found very > meaningful. > > > > I also remember reading somewhere, but have been unable to verify, that > the word compassion, rachum, and the word womb, (Heb ??) have the same root > word. I have looked and cannot find my reference and the Hebrew on line > dictionaries that I have pulled up do not have the info I am looking for. > But at the time, I remember being very taken with the idea. > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Margie Creech > *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2009 9:40 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] > > > > Marvin, > > I don't know if this is the answer to your question but it seemed to go > along with what I pasted from the post below. In a book I was given called > *Forty Years* by Rabbi Meir Kahane. He believes not only is the concept > "forty" tied to sin and punishment, it was specifically connected to the > warning of G-d to the sinner, a warning designed to avert that punishment. > He goes on to say, "In the case of both Holy Temples, the Almighty gave the > Jewish people a period of forty years of grace; time to think and rethink > their ways. Time to return to Him and save themselves from that > punishment." * A time of grace for all who will return to Torah and HaShem > *. I personally think Yeshua is Mashiach ben Yosef (not > > G-d) and he died before finishing the process, but he will finish > it. However, I don't believe all the pagan trash that has been passed down > by our fathers about him. All I know is that I could have cared less about > G-d or His Torah and in an instant 25 years ago that all changed. Yeshua > brought me to G-d and His Torah. Until the time comes when all our > questions are answered, I will keep searching for truth. G-d knows that in > my heart I only want His TRUTH. Joe, thank you for this post and I pray that > you will get relief from your pain. > > Margie > > > > -*Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise > among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the > reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef > will bring many Jews back to Torah ways*. > > Responsum of Rabbi Hai Gaon in Otzar Hagaonim based on Succah 52a > > *-Mashiach Ben Yosef will teach Penimiyut HaTorah [essential (secrets) of > the Torah], reach out to non-Jews, and, in general, begin the preparations > for the redemption.* > > *Kol HaTor, Ch. 2 par. 75- a collection of the views of the Vilna Gaonregarding the redemption, see also Iyun Yaakov on Eruvin 43:A > * > > *-However, he will die before he completes the process * > > > > --- On *Mon, 4/20/09, mhyde * wrote: > > From: mhyde > Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:01 AM > > > > Joe, > > Having come across this several years ago, I have been puzzled by the > ?forty years?. Do you have?.. What are your thoughts on how to > understand the 40 years? > > > > -*Mashiach Ben Yosef, **a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will > arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the > reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef > will bring many Jews back to Torah ways*. > > > > marvin > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/f2747120/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 13:17:27 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:17:27 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) #40 Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] In-Reply-To: <855590370904201035q4d5681eidc2675a3eef96a03@mail.gmail.com> References: <52285.49336.qm@web58502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <855590370904201035q4d5681eidc2675a3eef96a03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Hanoch! I had forgotten. So would the root for both be resh, chet, mem? Are you familiar with Aryeh Kaplan's book? I just looked it up; it is called the Waters of Eden I remember when I read it years ago, that it made a big impact on me. I think it is time for a re-read. So excited about seeing you and all at the conference! May HaShem bring us all safely there. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:35 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) #40 Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Hi Betty - the word for womb is "rechem" Hanoch On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Betty Givin wrote: Interesting, Margie.thanks for your comments, and Joe, thanks for your post. I have not yet read it in its entirety.but plan on doing so. Regarding the number 40, there are all kinds of references to the number 40 in the teachings of our rabbis, and many of them do have to do with teshuvah (repentance).. there was of course the 40 years in the wilderness, the 40 days and nights Moses spent on the Mountain with HaShem (twice) when he received the Torah and the tablets written by the finger of HaShem, and also there are also 40 days of repentance beginning in the month of Elul and going thru Rosh Hashanah on 1 Tishrei and on up to Yom Kippur on 10 Tishrei . I have also read (I think in one of Ariyeh Kaplan's Book about the waters flowing from Gan Eden), that there are 40 seah's of water in the mikvah. There are also 40 weeks in the gestation period of the human embryo (not that there is any teshuvah needed here), but rather that the waters in the mikvah are to be reminiscent in returning us to our original state of purity as we humans emerge from the pure waters of the womb, which I found very meaningful. I also remember reading somewhere, but have been unable to verify, that the word compassion, rachum, and the word womb, (Heb ??) have the same root word. I have looked and cannot find my reference and the Hebrew on line dictionaries that I have pulled up do not have the info I am looking for. But at the time, I remember being very taken with the idea. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Margie Creech Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:40 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Marvin, I don't know if this is the answer to your question but it seemed to go along with what I pasted from the post below. In a book I was given called Forty Years by Rabbi Meir Kahane. He believes not only is the concept "forty" tied to sin and punishment, it was specifically connected to the warning of G-d to the sinner, a warning designed to avert that punishment. He goes on to say, "In the case of both Holy Temples, the Almighty gave the Jewish people a period of forty years of grace; time to think and rethink their ways. Time to return to Him and save themselves from that punishment." A time of grace for all who will return to Torah and HaShem. I personally think Yeshua is Mashiach ben Yosef (not G-d) and he died before finishing the process, but he will finish it. However, I don't believe all the pagan trash that has been passed down by our fathers about him. All I know is that I could have cared less about G-d or His Torah and in an instant 25 years ago that all changed. Yeshua brought me to G-d and His Torah. Until the time comes when all our questions are answered, I will keep searching for truth. G-d knows that in my heart I only want His TRUTH. Joe, thank you for this post and I pray that you will get relief from your pain. Margie -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. Responsum of Rabbi Hai Gaon in Otzar Hagaonim based on Succah 52a -Mashiach Ben Yosef will teach Penimiyut HaTorah [essential (secrets) of the Torah], reach out to non-Jews, and, in general, begin the preparations for the redemption. Kol HaTor, Ch. 2 par. 75- a collection of the views of the Vilna Gaon regarding the redemption, see also Iyun Yaakov on Eruvin 43:A -However, he will die before he completes the process --- On Mon, 4/20/09, mhyde wrote: From: mhyde Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:01 AM Joe, Having come across this several years ago, I have been puzzled by the "forty years". Do you have... What are your thoughts on how to understand the 40 years? -Mashiach Ben Yosef, a great Tzaddik from the Davidic dynasty, will arise among the Jewish people. His leadership, which will be likened to the reign of king, will last forty years. In this period Mashiach ben Yosef will bring many Jews back to Torah ways. marvin _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/4a18a4ca/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 13:37:40 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:37:40 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH. Message-ID: <49ECC0F4.9040409@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/6389ff51/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 13:37:48 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:37:48 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Day - Yad Vashem Message-ID: <49ECC0FC.30400@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/8669da75/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 13:37:26 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:37:26 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH Message-ID: <49ECC0E6.7040702@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/78d4b5df/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/78d4b5df/attachment-0015.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 14:14:17 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:14:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH In-Reply-To: <49ECC0E6.7040702@westnet.com.au> References: <49ECC0E6.7040702@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <84917F0ACF1F45BDBB2C8DCFA25274E3@bettylaptop> Joe, thank you so much for these reminders.may we never, ever forget! I also wanted to ask you about the source of the Mourners' Kaddish that you have copied and pasted below. I am trying to learn to chant some of the Hebrew prayers that I do not yet know, and I like this one with the Hebrew and the English right below it. I have found one website out of Atlanta that has been very helpful in that it has the audio as well as the Hebrew, but I like to understand the words, and am not yet there in my Hebrew. (I try not to look at the transliteration, so I can be more dependent upon my Hebrew alone, but the transliteration is definitely a good check to make sure that I am pronouncing the some of the more difficult Hebrew words correctly). Thanks in advance for you help. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 1:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH http://www.60for60.com/video/60days.wmv Hebrew Yit'gadal v'yit'kadash sh'mei raba (Cong: Amein). May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified (`Cong: Amen.) Hebrew b'al'ma di v'ra khir'utei in the world that He created as He willed. Hebrew v'yam'likh mal'khutei b'chayeikhon uv'yomeikhon May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, Hebrew uv'chayei d'khol beit yis'ra'eil and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, Hebrew ba'agala uviz'man kariv v'im'ru: swiftly and soon. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein. Y'hei sh'mei raba m'varakh l'alam ul'al'mei al'maya (Amen. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.) Hebrew Yit'barakh v'yish'tabach v'yit'pa'ar v'yit'romam v'yit'nasei Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, Hebrew v'yit'hadar v'yit'aleh v'yit'halal sh'mei d'kud'sha mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew B'rikh hu. Blessed is He. Hebrew l'eila min kol bir'khata v'shirara beyond any blessing and song, Hebrew toosh'b'chatah v'nechematah, da'ameeran b'al'mah, v'eemru: praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen Hebrew Y'hei sh'lama raba min sh'maya May there be abundant peace from Heaven Hebrew v'chayim aleinu v'al kol yis'ra'eil v'im'ru and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen Hebrew Oseh shalom bim'romav hu ya'aseh shalom He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, Hebrew aleinu v'al kol Yis'ra'eil v'im'ru upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen http://www.613.org/cantor/kadish-a.ram Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/657bf9b8/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 899 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/657bf9b8/attachment-0015.gif From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 14:38:06 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:38:06 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!]] Message-ID: <49ECCF1E.9080004@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/2317bfe4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "mhyde" Subject: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!] Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:01:29 -0400 Size: 7731 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/2317bfe4/attachment.eml From oneillcody at yahoo.com Mon Apr 20 14:46:47 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Fascism Message-ID: <371905.33827.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. --JFK-- From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 14:56:41 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:56:41 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH] Message-ID: <49ECD379.4020500@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/ee288ad0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Betty Givin" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:14:17 -0500 Size: 45275 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/ee288ad0/attachment.eml From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 20 15:15:25 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:15:25 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Fascism] Message-ID: <49ECD7DD.2070706@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/8dfadc3f/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: moz-screenshot-13.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/8dfadc3f/attachment.jpg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: cody oneill Subject: [Dialogue] Fascism Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 12:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Size: 4703 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/8dfadc3f/attachment.eml From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 20 15:29:03 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:29:03 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH In-Reply-To: <84917F0ACF1F45BDBB2C8DCFA25274E3@bettylaptop> References: <49ECC0E6.7040702@westnet.com.au> <84917F0ACF1F45BDBB2C8DCFA25274E3@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <855590370904201329s45cf944dp8ffdbf43a5e506a1@mail.gmail.com> Hey Betty - Quick 'FYI' the Kaddish is in Aramaic, it's NOT Hebrew. * Hanoch * On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Joe, thank you so much for these reminders?may we never, ever forget! > > I also wanted to ask you about the source of the Mourners? Kaddish that you > have copied and pasted below. I am trying to learn to chant some of the > Hebrew prayers that I do not yet know, and I like this one with the Hebrew > and the English right below it. I have found one website out of Atlanta > that has been very helpful in that it has the audio as well as the Hebrew, > but I like to understand the words, and am not yet there in my Hebrew. (I > try not to look at the transliteration, so I can be more dependent upon my > Hebrew alone, but the transliteration is definitely a good check to make > sure that I am pronouncing the some of the more difficult Hebrew words > correctly). > > Thanks in advance for you help. > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *JOE INDOMENICO > *Sent:* Monday, April 20, 2009 1:37 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH > > > > http://www.60for60.com/video/60days.wmv > > [image: Hebrew] > *Yit'gadal v'yit'kadash sh'mei raba (Cong: Amein).* > May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified (`Cong: Amen.) > > [image: Hebrew] > *b'al'ma di v'ra khir'utei* > in the world that He created as He willed. > > [image: Hebrew] > *v'yam'likh mal'khutei b'chayeikhon uv'yomeikhon* > May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, > > [image: Hebrew] > *uv'chayei d'khol beit yis'ra'eil* > and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, > > [image: Hebrew] > *ba'agala uviz'man kariv v'im'ru:* > swiftly and soon. Now say: > > (Mourners and Congregation:) > [image: Hebrew] > *Amein. Y'hei sh'mei raba m'varakh l'alam ul'al'mei al'maya* > (Amen. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.) > > [image: Hebrew] > *Yit'barakh v'yish'tabach v'yit'pa'ar v'yit'romam v'yit'nasei* > Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, > > [image: Hebrew] > *v'yit'hadar v'yit'aleh v'yit'halal sh'mei d'kud'sha* > mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One > > (Mourners and Congregation:) > *[image: Hebrew]* > *B'rikh hu.* > Blessed is He. > > [image: Hebrew] > *l'eila min kol bir'khata v'shirara* > beyond any blessing and song, > > [image: Hebrew] > *toosh'b'chatah v'nechematah, da'ameeran b'al'mah, v'eemru:* > praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now say: > > (Mourners and Congregation:) > [image: Hebrew] > *Amein* > Amen > > [image: Hebrew] > *Y'hei sh'lama raba min sh'maya* > May there be abundant peace from Heaven > > [image: Hebrew] > *v'chayim aleinu v'al kol yis'ra'eil v'im'ru* > and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: > > (Mourners and Congregation:) > [image: Hebrew] > *Amein* > Amen > > [image: Hebrew] > *Oseh shalom bim'romav hu ya'aseh shalom* > He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, > > [image: Hebrew] > *aleinu v'al kol Yis'ra'eil v'im'ru* > upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: > > (Mourners and Congregation:) > [image: Hebrew] > *Amein* > Amen > > > http://www.613.org/cantor/kadish-a.ram > > *Shalom v'Ahavah > JOE.* > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 1055 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/f0d920b8/attachment-0015.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 15:35:24 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:35:24 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH In-Reply-To: <855590370904201329s45cf944dp8ffdbf43a5e506a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ECC0E6.7040702@westnet.com.au><84917F0ACF1F45BDBB2C8DCFA25274E3@bettylaptop> <855590370904201329s45cf944dp8ffdbf43a5e506a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6653C6956E6B443FB0FE767D7B421091@bettylaptop> Yes, I was aware, and did not intend to indicate (as I did) that it was Hebrew. Thanks for the correction (I need it!) and the clarification for those who were not aware. I wonder if the fact that it is Aramaic has anything to do with the more difficult time I am having in learning it in comparison to the other prayers! (Probably not.it's probably just me!). Oh how I wish I could have somehow learned Hebrew when I was young! But I am determined! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:29 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH Hey Betty - Quick 'FYI' the Kaddish is in Aramaic, it's NOT Hebrew. Hanoch On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Joe, thank you so much for these reminders.may we never, ever forget! I also wanted to ask you about the source of the Mourners' Kaddish that you have copied and pasted below. I am trying to learn to chant some of the Hebrew prayers that I do not yet know, and I like this one with the Hebrew and the English right below it. I have found one website out of Atlanta that has been very helpful in that it has the audio as well as the Hebrew, but I like to understand the words, and am not yet there in my Hebrew. (I try not to look at the transliteration, so I can be more dependent upon my Hebrew alone, but the transliteration is definitely a good check to make sure that I am pronouncing the some of the more difficult Hebrew words correctly). Thanks in advance for you help. Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 1:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH http://www.60for60.com/video/60days.wmv Hebrew Yit'gadal v'yit'kadash sh'mei raba (Cong: Amein). May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified (`Cong: Amen.) Hebrew b'al'ma di v'ra khir'utei in the world that He created as He willed. Hebrew v'yam'likh mal'khutei b'chayeikhon uv'yomeikhon May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, Hebrew uv'chayei d'khol beit yis'ra'eil and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, Hebrew ba'agala uviz'man kariv v'im'ru: swiftly and soon. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein. Y'hei sh'mei raba m'varakh l'alam ul'al'mei al'maya (Amen. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.) Hebrew Yit'barakh v'yish'tabach v'yit'pa'ar v'yit'romam v'yit'nasei Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, Hebrew v'yit'hadar v'yit'aleh v'yit'halal sh'mei d'kud'sha mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew B'rikh hu. Blessed is He. Hebrew l'eila min kol bir'khata v'shirara beyond any blessing and song, Hebrew toosh'b'chatah v'nechematah, da'ameeran b'al'mah, v'eemru: praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen Hebrew Y'hei sh'lama raba min sh'maya May there be abundant peace from Heaven Hebrew v'chayim aleinu v'al kol yis'ra'eil v'im'ru and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen Hebrew Oseh shalom bim'romav hu ya'aseh shalom He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, Hebrew aleinu v'al kol Yis'ra'eil v'im'ru upon us and upon all Israel. Now say: (Mourners and Congregation:) Hebrew Amein Amen http://www.613.org/cantor/kadish-a.ram Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/1caef4db/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 818 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/1caef4db/attachment-0015.gif From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 15:40:47 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:40:47 -0500 Subject: [ Re: [Dialogue] Hebrew Prayer websites In-Reply-To: <49ECD379.4020500@westnet.com.au> References: <49ECD379.4020500@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <367FAF5A814C43429BA48B15459CF7B0@bettylaptop> Thank you dear Joe! Judaism 101, of course! (changing the thread here). Having attending an Ashkenazi synagogue for a time, I have no problem understanding the difference and being able to substitute the "i's" from the "oy's!" Although in the very beginning, I was completely perplexed as to what was going on! For those who are unaware.Ashkenazi Jews do have some different pronunciations from the Sephardic Jews with which most of us are probably familiar. For example, among other things, Adonai is Adonoy; and often the "s" is substituted for a "t," so rather than say, "Shabbat Shalom," they will say, "Good Shabbos." If any of you are interested in learning more about the differences between the Ashkenazi and the Sephardic Jews, there is some good info on this website. As far as websites, in case any of you are interested is below. It has the Ashkenazi pronunciation and the English and transliteration below. It is just more helpful to me when I am learning to have the English directly below the Hebrew (or Aramaic, as in the case of the Mourner's Kaddish). So this will be most helpful, Joe. Toda rabba! http://sidduraudio.com/ Shalom v'ahava, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 2:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH] Shalom Cara Elisheva, with pleasure I attach the following link. http://www.jewfaq.org/prayref.htm#List However, all my Israeli mates will find the Ashkenazi pronunciation a bit off key. ;-) Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/7816fb91/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 20 15:50:40 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:50:40 -0500 Subject: FW: [ Re: [Dialogue] CORRECTION Hebrew Prayer websites Message-ID: <8A405A7D559B44099C838C4CA70FAF1D@bettylaptop> Oops! The website that I listed for the one I have been using has the Sephardic, not the Ashkenazi pronunciation on audio. Then below in a separate section from the Hebrew, it has the English and the transliteration. It is http://sidduraudio.com/ Elisheva/Betty _____ From: Betty Givin [mailto:bkgivin at charter.net] Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:41 PM To: 'dialogue at rootsoffaith.org' Subject: RE: [ Re: [Dialogue] Hebrew Prayer websites Thank you dear Joe! Judaism 101, of course! (changing the thread here). Having attending an Ashkenazi synagogue for a time, I have no problem understanding the difference and being able to substitute the "i's" from the "oy's!" Although in the very beginning, I was completely perplexed as to what was going on! For those who are unaware.Ashkenazi Jews do have some different pronunciations from the Sephardic Jews with which most of us are probably familiar. For example, among other things, Adonai is Adonoy; and often the "s" is substituted for a "t," so rather than say, "Shabbat Shalom," they will say, "Good Shabbos." If any of you are interested in learning more about the differences between the Ashkenazi and the Sephardic Jews, there is some good info on this website. As far as websites, in case any of you are interested is below. It has the Ashkenazi pronunciation and the English and transliteration below. It is just more helpful to me when I am learning to have the English directly below the Hebrew (or Aramaic, as in the case of the Mourner's Kaddish). So this will be most helpful, Joe. Toda rabba! http://sidduraudio.com/ Shalom v'ahava, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 2:57 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] YOM HASHOAH] Shalom Cara Elisheva, with pleasure I attach the following link. http://www.jewfaq.org/prayref.htm#List However, all my Israeli mates will find the Ashkenazi pronunciation a bit off key. ;-) Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/3e8664f8/attachment.html From correim at gninc.ca Mon Apr 20 17:03:00 2009 From: correim at gninc.ca (Cornie Reimer) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:03:00 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel - Aerial Photography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ECF114.6020402@gninc.ca> Hi Pat and all Land of my dreams!!! Beautiful pictures Pat. For a while I was actually contemplating to be present at the Conference. But since we are right in the midst of a big flood here in the red river valley the second highest in the last century. Now, we are safe and sound inside of a 10 million dollar dike, but there are just to many things keeping me from being able to go. But I would love to be there with you all. May Hashem richly bless you all. You may never be able to be privileged this again, so enjoy it to the fullest, as the future does seem a bit cloudy!! But all will be fine with emuna, Abba Father knows the way for each one of us. Shalom to all . Cornie Patricia Robbins wrote: > > http://www.aboutisrael.co.il/heb/freepage.php?id=997 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/df66823e/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:25:05 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:25:05 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!]] In-Reply-To: <49ECCF1E.9080004@westnet.com.au> References: <49ECCF1E.9080004@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Your new study sounds terrific, Joe! Can't wait to read it! Avigail From: JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!]] Shalom Marvin and Margie, looking at this quote in all its simplicity and its intended meaning, I would suggest the following : The reign of a king being 40 years would refer to King David and his son Solomon, both of whom reigned over a united Israel for 40 years each. This was the only time in the history of monarchical Israel where this ever occurred. "And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years, seven years he reigned in Chevron, and thirty three years he reigned in Yerushalayim. And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, and his kingdom was firmly established" 1 Kings 2: 11-12. "Thus the time that Solomon reigned in Yerushalayim over all Yisrael was forty years" 1 Kings 11: 42. So the key to this quote is not the length of time, albeit a generation, but rather that the reign of a king must only be associated with a united kingdom. Hence the role of Mashiach ben Yosef is to start this process. Please note that the process is to bring the people back to Torah, teach the essential secrets of Torah, reach out to the non-Jews, and begin the preparations for redemption. In this case the period of 40 years may allude to a time of probation. If the nation does national teshuva, then the Malchut Shamayim or the Kingdom of Heaven which is on offer or at hand can become a reality. However, the message of this Mashiach is rejected ,he will die before completing this process. The emphasis is on the word "process." So the Christian claim that redemption was fulfilled two millenia ago is both false and misleading. Redemption and the Malchut Shamayim can only be achieved over a united kingdom. So Yeshua ben Yosef was the catalyst to start this process. You could say that the process of redemption is a work in progress. The unification of the two Mashiachs into one is pivotal to the unification of both houses. This is what most of us are experiencing at this point in time. Not only for the two houses but for many gentiles who will be joined to the ranks by HaShem as prophesied in Zechariah chapter two. There is another peculiar aspect that I have been working on for years that at this juncture I am not quite ready to share. There is an obscure Rabbinic teaching on Mashiach ben Peretz ben Yehudah. The piece I have been working on is entitled "From Mitzrayim to Eretz Yisrael, the Beit ha Mikdash the Chagim, a study in time and space." In time, b'Ezrat HaShem I will finally put the finishing touches on this work and will present it for your consideration. There is much soul seeking and prayer still to be done. This I hope will shed a different light on Yeshua ben Yosef. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/1fc7a457/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 17:25:52 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:25:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Fascism In-Reply-To: <371905.33827.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <371905.33827.qm@web37307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: GULP! -------------------------------------------------- From: "cody oneill" Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:46 PM To: Subject: [Dialogue] Fascism > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the > merger of state and corporate power." > > - Benito Mussolini > > > To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, > no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an > opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all. > --JFK-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 20 18:01:20 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:01:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] About Israel - Aerial Photography In-Reply-To: <49ECF114.6020402@gninc.ca> References: <49ECF114.6020402@gninc.ca> Message-ID: I know! I loved them too, Cornie. Am so glad to hear you and your loved ones are safe from the flooding. Shalom-Shalom, Pat From: Cornie Reimer Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 6:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] About Israel - Aerial Photography Hi Pat and all Land of my dreams!!! Beautiful pictures Pat. For a while I was actually contemplating to be present at the Conference. But since we are right in the midst of a big flood here in the red river valley the second highest in the last century. Now, we are safe and sound inside of a 10 million dollar dike, but there are just to many things keeping me from being able to go. But I would love to be there with you all. May Hashem richly bless you all. You may never be able to be privileged this again, so enjoy it to the fullest, as the future does seem a bit cloudy!! But all will be fine with emuna, Abba Father knows the way for each one of us. Shalom to all . Cornie Patricia Robbins wrote: http://www.aboutisrael.co.il/heb/freepage.php?id=997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090420/c018f994/attachment.html From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Mon Apr 20 20:23:35 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 11:23:35 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? Message-ID: <646F6E1FBA4649B1B77F270ECD9FF635@SPLITPIN> Shalom Everyone, I find the following statements very interesting. Until now we have merely proven that, according to the Torah, Mashiach can *potentially* be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'. However, many might find it interesting to note that several Torah sources would seem to indicate that not only *can *Mashiach die and be resurrected before he redeems the Jewish people, but that the process *will* necessarily be so. *Two Moshiachs or One?* Some may have come across Talmudic literature that speaks of the notion that our final exile will actually be completed by *two* Messianic redeemers. One is known as 'Mashiach ben Yosef' and the other-'Mashiach ben Dovid '. Each one is charged with his own unique mission. >From my studies of the Tanakh I also have come to the conclusion that there will be 2 Messiahs who will lead Israel at the time of the end. I have never come across the title 'Mashiach ben Yosef' in the Tanakh. I would be interested to know where this title comes from. I have read about 'Mashiach ben David' in the Tanakh and according to my understanding he will be the one who will lead Judah to victory over their enemies at the time of the end, and will bring peace to those in Israel. I believe this will happen before Ephraim is brought back to Israel. >From my studies of the Tanakh I have come to believe that the Mashiach who will be the shepherd over Ephraim and the other tribes with Ephraim, during their time in the wilderness, and the one who will lead them back to the land of Israel will be the resurrected King David. I believe he will be the one who will unite Judah and Ephraim and who will be king in Israel when Judah and Ephraim are united as one nation in Israel and YeHoWaH's kingdom is established. I also believe that before either of these Messiahs appear in these last days that Elijah will come to teach us truth, and to turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. Malachi 4:5-6 (3:23-24) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of YeHoWaH. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the land with utter destruction. I believe that we should be praying for YeHoWaH to send Elijah to us as He has promised He would, as I believe that Elijah will clear up all the confusion among us. Shalom to all, Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/dac78c16/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Apr 21 06:34:21 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:34:21 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Financing the United Israel Annual Meetings Message-ID: <729A0886-25EF-4B7E-A123-5DD83B934A77@earthlink.net> I wanted to share some thoughts with all of you on financing the costs of our UIWU annual meetings. First a bit of history and background. Holding an annual UIWU meeting each April of the year is part of the founding bylaws of the organization and so far as I know there has never been a year when such a meeting has been held. The upcoming gathering here in Charlotte will mark the end of 65 years UIWU history--it will be our 66th annual meeting. I began attending the gatherings in New York in 1993, the year we celebrated the 50th anniversary and also David Horowitz's 90th birthday. For several of us that was our first UI annual meeting, and I think LaTrenda Deem, who was living in NY at the time, might have attended a meeting or two even before 1993. Most of the annual meetings were held in Manhattan but from time to time there were meetings in West Olive, Michigan where Jack and Doris Trinker still live and meet each Sabbath (they attended the Charlotte meeting last year and Jack is on our board), and also in Salem, West Virginia, where there was also a local group, now represented only by David Dillon and his mother Edna. They are the ones who gave us our Torah scroll a few years back. Dennis, Timothy, and I have visited both the Salem, WV location as well as the Michigan group. Since David's death in 2002, we had one final meeting in NY in April, 2003, but then with the move of the main offices of United Israel to Charlotte, we have held our annual meetings here, beginning in 2004--so the meeting this year will be our sixth in Charlotte. Last year, as our attendance grew, more outside speakers came in, and our move to a larger and better hotel (Doubletree in Southpark) the costs of holding the meeting rose significantly. In past years here in Charlotte various ones who attended would donate a bit here or there to pick up our expenses. We always seemed to break even. Last year was somewhat special with Simcha Jacobovici flying in from Israel to be with us. The total costs of holding the 2008 meeting ran about $10,000, and that did not include our social music event on Sunday night that was paid for separately by special donors. Quite a few people pitched in to carry these costs, even some who could not attend but who wanted to help in this way, plus we had a three or four who put in much larger gifts ($1000+), so we were able to pay all our expenses. Our costs this year are considerably more modest, around $3000, not including the Saturday night music event, which is financed separately, as it was last year, and not out of the United Israel general fund. Several people had suggested that we begin to charge a registration fee, maybe $100 per person, to carry these costs. As you know, most conferences do this and it is just considered part of attending. Even though I can see some merits to this I really felt an aversion to going this route so my decision was to still have an open meeting, with anyone free to attend without charging a fee. So once again, as in the past, our plans are to finance our meeting costs by asking those who are willing to make special donations. If everyone gives a bit, as he or she is able, I think we will be okay. Those who want to help who can not attend the meeting can mail in checks to our offices (2124 Crown Centre Drive, Suite 200, Charlotte, NC 28227), and those who will be here next weekend can just hand their donations to me or Timothy, our treasurer, and we will send receipts after the meeting is over. I think I made the right decision here and I just wanted to explain to everyone both the background and how we plan to cover costs this year. Shalom, James From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 07:11:21 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:11:21 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yom HaShoa - Holocaust Rememberence Day Message-ID: <855590370904210511x5e58af15wc74a9ccdcb5ce702@mail.gmail.com> One of the most moving moments of the day (in Israel) is when the siren goes off throughout the country -- All the cars on the roads and highways come to a halt and everybody comes out of their cars, stores, houses and stands at attention for the two minutes that the siren is making noise. This is repeated on Yom Hazikaron (Memorial day), the day before Yom Haatzmaut. Holocaust Remembrance Day - April 21, 2009 [image: []] Nissan 27, 5769 Please wait 20 Seconds before you close this e-mail. This message asks you to do one small act to remember the six million (6,000,000) Jewish lives that were lost during the Holocaust. Send this message to everyone you know who is Jewish. If we reach the goal of reaching six million e-mail names before April 21, 2009, we will fulfill and give back to G-d what He gave to us: 6 million Jews who are alive today who remember those who perished. Please send this message to as many Jews as you know. Ask them to also forward it to others. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/55a8e12a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 07:16:40 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:16:40 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Sweden today.... Message-ID: <855590370904210516n2e2a492ah348ecd8796ace067@mail.gmail.com> Unbelievable....the jihad continues in the most unlikely of places.... *Hanoch* Click here: YouTube - CBN: Malm?, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/a7d18946/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Apr 21 09:25:14 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:25:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Sweden today.... In-Reply-To: <855590370904210516n2e2a492ah348ecd8796ace067@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904210516n2e2a492ah348ecd8796ace067@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Deplorable! How can humanity again sink to such depth? Will America fall the way of Sweden? Thank you, Hanoch. I'm forwarding this. Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:16 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Sweden today.... Unbelievable....the jihad continues in the most unlikely of places.... Hanoch Click here: YouTube - CBN: Malm?, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/a416fb10/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 10:10:45 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:10:45 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Sweden today.... In-Reply-To: References: <855590370904210516n2e2a492ah348ecd8796ace067@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <855590370904210810x3e490a65jeb21cd4dc1094246@mail.gmail.com> Hey Pat - In reply to those two questions you raised: 1. The Arabs have been there for a long time - they've had lots of time to practice. 2. Absolutely, without a doubt; it's only a matter of time... * Hanoch * On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:25 AM, Patricia Robbins < patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com> wrote: > Deplorable! How can humanity again sink to such depth? Will America > fall the way of Sweden? > > Thank you, Hanoch. I'm forwarding this. > > Pat > > > *From:* Hanoch Young > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:16 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Sweden today.... > > Unbelievable....the jihad continues in the most unlikely of places.... > *Hanoch* > Click here: YouTube - CBN: Malm?, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/08c4f59e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 10:45:35 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:45:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] When 'walking out' is just NOT enough..... Message-ID: <855590370904210845q2f393e02u82c81e565c12a887@mail.gmail.com> *Give me a break! You don't 'walk out' on a Nazi like Ahmadinejad, who pledges to exterminate Israel; you KILL HIM. And if you can't, you support someone who can, and will.* * * * NOW is the time to kill this Hitler; before the slaughter...you don't negotiate with Nazis (like Barack Hussein Obama is now doing with Iran)...you KILL them. Or they will certainly kill you....* * Hanoch* ** *Twenty-three delegations storm out of UN Racism conference as Ahmadinejad condemns Israel as "racist" *April 20, 2009, 10:59 AM (GMT+02:00) Protesters constantly disrupted the speech as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad condemned Israel for "racism" at the Anti-Racism conference which opened in Geneva Monday, April 20. Some were bundled out. He went on to denounce the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan as an arrogant drive to "expand its sphere of influence." UN Secretary Ban Ki-moon accused the Iranian leader of misusing the anti-racist platform "to divide and incite hate." At the main Holocaust Day ceremony in Jerusalem, with which the Geneva conference coincided, prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu pledged that Holocaust deniers would not be permitted to perpetrate another such crime against the Jewish people. The boycott of the UN World Conference against Racism snowballed with Germany and New Zealand joining the US, Canada, Australia, Italy, Holland, Sweden and Israel. It is the follow-up to Durban I in 2001, from which the US and Israeli delegates walked out over its anti-Israel, anti-Semitic content. Yet the text prepared for second session reaffirms the language of the first. The Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also scheduled a press conference for Monday, the eve of Israel's annual Holocaust and Heroism Remembrance Day. Outside, an "alternative" anti-racism conference was staged in protest with the participation of refugees from political and human rights abuses in Iran, Libya and Sudan. They included a large group of Iranians. Jerusalem recalled its ambassador to Bern for consultations to protest the meeting Swiss president Hans Rudolf Merz held with the Iranian president despite Israel's request not to shake the hand of this "Holocaust denier, exporter of terrorism and anti-Semitism." The pope criticized the boycott after US president Barack Obama spoke of the antagonism to Israel at Durban I "in ways that were extremely hypocritical and counterproductive." In regretfully announcing US absence from the Geneva event, State Department spokesman Robert Wood said the US also has serious concerns about relatively new additions? regarding 'incitement' which run counter to the US commitment to unfettered free speech." Explaining its absence, Canada has said it is "interested in combating racism, not promoting it," and Italy condemned its "aggressive and anti-Semitic statements." The European Union failed to reach a consensus on its position. The UK sent a low-level delegation - like Switzerland and the Czech Republic. In walking out of the original conference in 2001, the then secretary of state Colin Powell said: "? you do not combat racism by hateful language, some of which is a throwback to the days of Zionism equals racism, support the idea that we have made too much of the Holocaust or suggest that apartheid exists in Israel or that single out only one country in the world ? Israel ? for censure and abuse." Black U.S. Congresswoman Barbara Lee (Democrat) said the Black Caucus, which she heads, was ?deeply dismayed? at the decision to boycott Durban II. She explained that this would make it more difficult for Washington to influence the UN Human Rights Council. Washington has taken steps to join the controversial body which is dominated by states under fire for human rights violations. A rally by pro-Israeli and pro-freedom of speech groups was to be led by US Rep. Scott Garret (R-N.J.). Garret, Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R.-Fla.), and Rep. Dough Lamborn (R.-Colo.) have co-sponsored legislation to prohibit US funding for any follow-up events of Durban I. *DEBKAfile - We start where the media stop* ------------------------------ ------------------------------ *Copyright 2000-2007 DEBKAfile. All Rights Reserve* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/d11243f7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 10:57:25 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:57:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, it's time for "Israel to wean itself off U.S. munitions" Message-ID: <855590370904210857p5c6aec5aj792d9e85426bde92@mail.gmail.com> The first sentence says it all..... * Hanoch* Israel to Wean Itself Off of U.S. Munitions Reported: 13:15 PM - Apr/21/09 Arutz-7 Israelnationalnews.com (IsraelNN.com) *An Obama administration decision to delay weapons shipments to Israel is fueling concerns that the U.S. is leveraging armaments to force the establishment of a Palestinian Authority state*, according to *The Bulletin*. It is believed that this may have had a role in the Israeli Defense Ministry's decision to resume developing and producing indigenous munitions in an effort to end its dependence on U.S. weapons. According to *Middle East Newsline*, the need for indigenous munitions production was a key lesson from the 2006 war with Hezbollah, when Israel quickly exhausted its supply of U.S.-made air-dropped munitions. ?We have to end our exclusive dependency on the United States in the area of air bombs,? an official said. The Israeli military used a range of indigenous munitions during the 22-day war with Hamas in January. The state-owned Israel Military Industries (IMI) and Rafael Advanced Defense Systems produced most of these munitions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/a76ce5cc/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 11:04:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:04:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yes, there is only one answer... Message-ID: <855590370904210904i6fc4237ew300f852da9a97aee@mail.gmail.com> There is only one answer: * THEY MUST GO!!* * Hanoch* ** *Counterterror Scholar: ?Individual Jihad? Rises in Fatah-Led PA* Nisan 25, 5769, 19 April 09 09:23 by by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu (IsraelNN.com) Last week?s terrorist attack in Beit Haggai, adjacent to Hevron, is the latest in a string of ?individual Jihad? violence against Jews, counterterror expert reserve Brigadier-General Shalom Harari said on *Channel One?s* "Today in the News" program Sunday night. Harari, a senior research scholar at the Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, tied the Palestinian Authority with the growing phenomenon of apparently spontaneous terrorist attacks that have killed several Israelis the past year. A combination of incitement in Arab media, Israeli court orders to destroy illegal homes in Jerusalem, internal dissent in Fatah and a general frustration amid rising Arab expectations has encouraged the attacks, he said. Harari noted that senior Fatah leaders in the Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority have declared in internal discussions that a return to violence is necessary. PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas has been termed a moderate by the Western world and by Kadima, Labor and Meretz party leaders because of his public declarations that violence harms the PA?s fight for a new Arab state on the land of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Compounding Fatah?s predicament is a growing popularity of Hamas in Arab cities and villages in Judea and Samaria at the same time that the rival terrorist organization is losing ground in Gaza. ?The PA suppreses [violence] by using fear and stops some attacks, resulting in individuals taking action on their own,? the reserve brigadier general stated. He pointed out that the Internet is a source of incitement and can cause individuals who have no connection to an organized terror cell to get up one morning and decide to attack Jews. Another source of incitement is the Qatar-based *Al Jazeera *satellite network, which still shows readers carnage from the Cast Lead counterterrorist campaign in Gaza ?as it if happened yesterday.? The attack at Beit Haggai, which ended with the attacker being killed without causing serious injuries to anyone, came one week after a terrorist from the Hevron area killed a 13-year-old boy and wounded one other child in the western Gush Etzion community of Bat Ayin, located south of Jerusalem. Arab individuals without any known connection to an organized terrorist group were responsible for terror attacks that killed eight students in the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva massacre and three people in a bulldozer attack in the capital last year. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/65cf8d66/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 11:13:11 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 09:13:11 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] They will never, ever be loyal.. Message-ID: <855590370904210913h60426375mf46d2bca72ae8580@mail.gmail.com> Now this is the kind of thing that should get them thrown out of the Knesset and deported, at the least. Frankly, I think they should be lined up against a wall and shot for treason... and these scum VOTE in the Kenesset... * Hanoch* Israeli Arab MKs at Durban 2 while Israel Pushes Ban Nisan 26, 5769, 20 April 09 06:55 by by Maayana Miskin (IsraelNN.com) Israel has succeeded in encouraging a number of democratic nations to boycott the Durban II conference in Geneva. However, many individuals as well as nations have decided to attend the conference despite Israel's calls for a boycott. Among them are representatives of Israel itself ? two Arab Israeli MKs from the Balad party. While Israel has warned that the conference unfairly singles out Israel and Zionism for criticism, MKs from Balad and other Arab parties have expressed their enthusiastic support for the meeting. *MKs Jamal Zahalka of Balad and Ahmed Tibi of the United Arab List (Ra'am Ta'al) have accused Israel of avoiding the meeting due to ?shame? and ?fear.?* Zahalka and fellow Balad MK Said Nafa attended the conference in person. Prior to the conference, the two attended the pre-summit NGO Civil Society Forum March, where *Zahalka accused Israel of ?racist apartheid.? * *Tibi did not attend the conference, but supported the Balad MKs from afar by repeating their accusations against mainstream Israeli society. Israel is becoming increasingly racist, Tibi told journalists shortly before the conference began. He accused Israel of falsely claiming that the conference is anti-Semitic in order to avoid participating.* *Zahalka, who identified himself as a ?Palestinian resident of Israel,?*said the success of the Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel Our Home) party in the recent national elections proves that Israel is racist on a national level. Yisrael Beiteinu has called for all residents of Israel to be required to demonstrate loyalty to the state. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/5f6f1a12/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Apr 21 11:15:48 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:15:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] When 'walking out' is just NOT enough..... In-Reply-To: <855590370904210845q2f393e02u82c81e565c12a887@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370904210845q2f393e02u82c81e565c12a887@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Granted, simply storming out on this new Hitler's speech is an impotent protest. I also trust and believe what my Rabbi taught us: "If an enemy intends to kill you, kill him first, because it is better that a G-d-fearing man lives." There was a time when I would have been confident that Israel would go in and destroy Iran's Nuclear capability, with the full support and encouragement of the U.S. There was a time when I fully trusted that the U.S. was a defender of Justice and Truth, and an enemy of the blood-thirsty, lie-mongering murderers of this planet. If we no longer stand against evil, if we are no longer willing to fight against murder and injustice, we have lost our worth as a nation, and shame covers our land. Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:45 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] When 'walking out' is just NOT enough..... Give me a break! You don't 'walk out' on a Nazi like Ahmadinejad, who pledges to exterminate Israel; you KILL HIM. And if you can't, you support someone who can, and will. NOW is the time to kill this Hitler; before the slaughter...you don't negotiate with Nazis (like Barack Hussein Obama is now doing with Iran)...you KILL them. Or they will certainly kill you.... Hanoch Twenty-three delegations storm out of UN Racism conference as Ahmadinejad condemns Israel as "racist" April 20, 2009, 10:59 AM (GMT+02:00) Protesters constantly disrupted the speech as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad condemned Israel for "racism" at the Anti-Racism conference which opened in Geneva Monday, April 20. Some were bundled out. He went on to denounce the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan as an arrogant drive to "expand its sphere of influence." UN Secretary Ban Ki-moon accused the Iranian leader of misusing the anti-racist platform "to divide and incite hate." At the main Holocaust Day ceremony in Jerusalem, with which the Geneva conference coincided, prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu pledged that Holocaust deniers would not be permitted to perpetrate another such crime against the Jewish people. The boycott of the UN World Conference against Racism snowballed with Germany and New Zealand joining the US, Canada, Australia, Italy, Holland, Sweden and Israel. It is the follow-up to Durban I in 2001, from which the US and Israeli delegates walked out over its anti-Israel, anti-Semitic content. Yet the text prepared for second session reaffirms the language of the first. The Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also scheduled a press conference for Monday, the eve of Israel's annual Holocaust and Heroism Remembrance Day. Outside, an "alternative" anti-racism conference was staged in protest with the participation of refugees from political and human rights abuses in Iran, Libya and Sudan. They included a large group of Iranians. Jerusalem recalled its ambassador to Bern for consultations to protest the meeting Swiss president Hans Rudolf Merz held with the Iranian president despite Israel's request not to shake the hand of this "Holocaust denier, exporter of terrorism and anti-Semitism." The pope criticized the boycott after US president Barack Obama spoke of the antagonism to Israel at Durban I "in ways that were extremely hypocritical and counterproductive." In regretfully announcing US absence from the Geneva event, State Department spokesman Robert Wood said the US also has serious concerns about relatively new additions? regarding 'incitement' which run counter to the US commitment to unfettered free speech." Explaining its absence, Canada has said it is "interested in combating racism, not promoting it," and Italy condemned its "aggressive and anti-Semitic statements." The European Union failed to reach a consensus on its position. The UK sent a low-level delegation - like Switzerland and the Czech Republic. In walking out of the original conference in 2001, the then secretary of state Colin Powell said: "? you do not combat racism by hateful language, some of which is a throwback to the days of Zionism equals racism, support the idea that we have made too much of the Holocaust or suggest that apartheid exists in Israel or that single out only one country in the world ? Israel ? for censure and abuse." Black U.S. Congresswoman Barbara Lee (Democrat) said the Black Caucus, which she heads, was ?deeply dismayed? at the decision to boycott Durban II. She explained that this would make it more difficult for Washington to influence the UN Human Rights Council. Washington has taken steps to join the controversial body which is dominated by states under fire for human rights violations. A rally by pro-Israeli and pro-freedom of speech groups was to be led by US Rep. Scott Garret (R-N.J.). Garret, Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R.-Fla.), and Rep. Dough Lamborn (R.-Colo.) have co-sponsored legislation to prohibit US funding for any follow-up events of Durban I. DEBKAfile - We start where the media stop -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2000-2007 DEBKAfile. All Rights Reserve -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/22a8ecb7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 14:44:23 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:44:23 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Translation adjustment, it seems... Message-ID: <855590370904211244t3d2d9cc7k50867220cc863710@mail.gmail.com> Did he or he didn?t he? By Ben Harris ? April 21, 2009 If you watch JTA's video of Ahmadinejad's speech yesterday -- and I know at least 6,000 of you did -- you'll hear him make this comment as he began to talk about Israel. "Following the World War II, they resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless, on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the ...." At this point, the translator begins to say "and the am- ..." and then he seems to get stuck. He picks up the translation at the beginning of the next sentence, where the Iranian president is talking about "migrants" who made the Palestinians homeless and established a racist regime. Well, according to prepared text of the speech provided by the Iranians before Ahmadinejad's speech, the sentence should have been: "Following the World War Two, they resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless, on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the ambiguous and dubious question of holocaust." (Lower-case "h." But who are we to split hairs?) But according to clarifications we've got from the U.N., the line he actually uttered was "on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the abuse of the question of the holocaust." Indicating Jewish exploitation of the Holocaust. Why the change? According to the UN, UN chief Ban Ki-moon met with Ahmadinejad before his speech and urged him not to equate Zionism to racism and not to challenge the veracity of the Holocaust. Apparently, the Iranian leader heeded only half that message. What makes the situation even more interesting, though, is that the change-up apparently threw off the Farsi-to-English translator, so that we -- and presumably, all other journalists -- never heard the word "Holocaust" even mentioned. Until today, when the UN sent out the clarification. If you watch JTA's video of Ahmadinejad's speech yesterday -- and I know at least 6,000 of you did -- you'll hear him make this comment as he began to talk about Israel. "Following the World War II, they resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless, on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the ...." At this point, the translator begins to say "and the am- ..." and then he seems to get stuck. He picks up the translation at the beginning of the next sentence, where the Iranian president is talking about "migrants" who made the Palestinians homeless and established a racist regime. Well, according to prepared text of the speech provided by the Iranians before Ahmadinejad's speech, the sentence should have been: "Following the World War Two, they resorted to military aggression to make an entire nation homeless, on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the ambiguous and dubious question of holocaust." (Lower-case "h." But who are we to split hairs?) But according to clarifications we've got from the U.N., the line he actually uttered was "on the pretext of Jewish sufferings and the abuse of the question of the holocaust." Indicating Jewish exploitation of the Holocaust. Why the change? According to the UN, UN chief Ban Ki-moon met with Ahmadinejad before his speech and urged him not to equate Zionism to racism and not to challenge the veracity of the Holocaust. Apparently, the Iranian leader heeded only half that message. What makes the situation even more interesting, though, is that the change-up apparently threw off the Farsi-to-English translator, so that we -- and presumably, all other journalists -- never heard the word "Holocaust" even mentioned. Until today, when the UN sent out the clarification. Maria Heuze, a UN spokeswoman, says she has no idea why the translator ? who isn?t a UN employee, but was brought in for this occasion ? slipped up. Perhaps he was surprised when he saw the European delegates marching out of the room in protest. Or maybe he was confused by the text, versus what Ahmadinejad was actually saying. ?I don?t know what happened to him,? she said. ?I?m not in his head.? At least, that's the story at present. We think the whole affair seems "ambiguous and dubious." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/45dd87bd/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 14:58:08 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 12:58:08 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] An appropriate response?? Message-ID: <855590370904211258x4093485cu8861714f59709c00@mail.gmail.com> Okay, there is a story today on the JTA News with the following headline: *"Israel responds harshly to Ahmadinejad rhetoric at Durban II"* ** "Israel responds *harshly," *you've got to be kidding me! What is going on here? The Iranian Hitler who has threatened to 'wipe Israel off the map' (along with the 6 million Jews that live there...), continues spewing his Jew-hating utterances and Israel's *verbal *response is supposed to do, * what?* Now, if only Israel had fired a fraction of its Nuclear arsenal at Iran as a response....now THAT would have told the world something. And we had better do it before *they* can; because they, G-d forbid, WILL. Sometimes, 'harsh words' just don't cut it in the real world. * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/ede2b4b4/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 15:14:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 13:14:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Hypocrites, leave the Swiss President alone! Message-ID: <855590370904211314k7ee8945du2acb01ef5f2427c8@mail.gmail.com> Now here is an article that tells it like it is...and shows what frauds we've been. We will deal with "moderate" terrorists like Fatah, but not "bad" terrorists like Hamas. We will deal with scum from the Philistine Authority ('PA'), but not the scum in what is called 'Lebanon.' We look like idiots in the eyes of the world.... * Hanoch* ** Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Day *Hypocrites, Leave the Swiss President Alone! *by Nadia Matar, Women in Green When Swiss President Hans-Rudolf Merz's intention to meet Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad during the Durban II Conference taking place in Switzerland became known, officials in Jerusalem issued a statement harshly critical of Switzerland, and of Merz himself. It declared, inter alia, that "there is absolutely no reason to hold such a meeting with a serial Holocaust denier such as Ahmadinejad." Israel's President, Shimon Peres, expressed himself in a similar manner at the ceremony opening Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Day, saying that "the Conference that opens today in Geneva is the acceptance of racism, not a war against it. And the main spokesman at it, Ahmadinejad, calls to destroy Israel and denies the Holocaust. It's a shame." If I were the President of Switzerland, I would respond to Shimon Peres and those Israeli officials: "Excuse me? What do you want from me? You don't have a problem with meeting with the Holocaust denier Abu Mazen! The same Abu Mazen who chose the denial of the Holocaust as the subject of his doctoral thesis. And this is not all - to the Holocaust denier Abu Mazen, the head of Fatah, a partner in the massacre of the eleven Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games in 1972, you give guns, "police" forces, an army, and an almost autonomous Authority, with control over a population in which the book Mein Kampf is a best-seller, and Holocaust denial is universal. Why are contacts with Abu Mazen OK, while shaking Ahmadinejad's hand is invalid?" Actually, if the Swiss President were to answer like that, I think he would be right. This is simple, unvarnished hypocrisy to distinguish between the Holocaust denier Ahmadinejad and the Holocaust denier Abu Mazen. And Holocaust denial is not all that they have in common. Both support the elimination of the State of Israel. One by an atomic attack, and the other by the "two states for two people solution," which in fact is a nice slogan on the road to a Final Solution for the State of Israel as a Jewish state. So then, anyone who conducts talks with Abu Mazen and his people, and even helps him to enhance his power and standing - should not have any complaints about someone who has talks with Ahmadinejad. Israel can register complaints only when it mends its own fences. It can do this only by the formal revocation of the Oslo Accords and a public announcement that the Oslo Accords were a mistake and a crime that cannot be repeated. With the Oslo Accords, the Oslo architects, headed by Shimon Peres, gave a seal of approval to the arch murderer Yasser Arafat and his movement. The Oslo Accords are based on the false assumption that Arafat and the PLO/Fatah are legitimate partners for dialogue, and that they should be strengthened by giving them weapons, ammunition, and cities of refuge, while in contrast, other organizations, such as Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, are not kosher - when it was clear to all, already in 1993 when the Oslo Accords were signed, that there is no difference between Fatah, on the one hand, and, on the other, Hamas and the other terror organizations. The murderous terror attacks against Israel, a considerable part of which were perpetrated by Fatah members (despite the signing of the Oslo Accords), proved that they all champion terror against Jews, and actively participate in terror activities against Jews. All of them - Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the other organizations - are united in their belief that Israel has no right to exist. All you have to do is open up a history book in the PLO Palestinian Authority's schools to see that Israel does not appear in its books, just as it does not appear in the books of Hamas supporters. Accordingly, before attacking and denouncing the Swiss President, we must understand that the ones who gave a "kosher" stamp to Arafat and Abu Mazen are the ones who paved the way for approving Ahmadinejad. It is still not too late to make things right. The new Israeli government must proclaim to all the world that it makes no distinction between Abu Mazen-Ismael Henya-Ahmadinejad and Osama bin Laden. They all are detestable terrorists, against whom a no-holds-barred war must be conducted. This is the only way that Israel will once again be a light unto the nations. Only then will Israel regain its moral right to make demands to and raise complaints against the countries of the world, with Switzerland at the top of the list. ============================================= Women For Israel's Tomorrow (Women in Green) POB 7352, Jerusalem 91072, Israel Tel: 972-2-624-9887 Fax: 972-2-624-5380 mailto:wfit2 at womeningreen.org http://www.womeningreen.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/36f21269/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 16:48:19 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:48:19 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Wall Street Journal Op-Ed: "Our selective moral outrage" Message-ID: <855590370904211448k452dbe84l9e4208cac4340f67@mail.gmail.com> See sections below that I've highlighted....amazing Op-Ed piece. * Hanoch* [image: Need a Real Sponsor here] - OPINION: GLOBAL VIEW *Wall Street Journal * - APRIL 21, 2009 Our Selective Moral Outrage Why does Israel face more opprobrium than Russia? - By BRET STEPHENS Few places on earth have been as systematically brutalized over the past decade as Chechnya. So you might have thought that the Russian government's decision last week to declare an end to its "counterterrorism" operations in the territory would have been an occasion for somber reflection in the Western media. Forget it. It's a 600-word news item at best. Here's a contrast to ponder. Since the beginning of the second intifada in the autumn of 2000, roughly 6,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli fire. That figure includes combatants, as well as those killed in January's fighting in Gaza. As for Chechnya, there are no solid figures for the number of civilians killed since the second war began in late 1999; estimates range anywhere between 25,000 and 200,000. Chechnya's population, at a little over one million, is about one-third or one-fourth that of the Palestinians. That works out to between 25 to 200 Chechen deaths per 1,000, as against 1.5 to 2 Palestinian deaths per 1,000. Now type the words "Palestine" and "genocide" into Google. When I did so Monday, I got 1,630,000 results. Next, substitute "Chechnya" for "Palestine." The number is 245,000. Taking the Google results as a crude measure of global outrage, that means the outrage over the Palestinian situation was 6.6 times greater than over the Chechen one. Yet Chechen fatalities were anywhere between 13 to 133 times greater. Final calculation: With an "outrage" ratio of 6.6 to one, but a proportional kill ratio of one to 13 (at the very low end), it turns out that every Palestinian death receives somewhere in the order of 28 times the attention of every Chechen death. Remember that in both cases we're mainly talking about Muslims being killed by non-Muslims. I'll admit this math exercise is a bit of a gimmick. But it raises a worthwhile question: *Why is Palestinian life so dear in the eyes of the world -- and Chechen life so cheap?* Maybe the answer is that the Palestinian cause is morally worthier than Chechnya's. But that can't be right. Yes, Chechen terrorists have committed spectacular atrocities, notably the 2004 Beslan school massacre. *Yet modern terrorism is a genre Palestinians practically invented. *As it is, Chechnya has been suffering grievously under Russia's thumb since the 1800s. (Just read Tolstoy's "Hadji Murat.") If colonialism is your beef, the case for Chechen independence is inarguable. Maybe, then, the answer is that there is no shortage of imagery of Palestinian death, and thus it engages more of the world's attention. By contrast, the Russians imposed a virtual media blockade on Chechnya, and journalists who covered the story, like Anna Politkovskaya, had a way of ending up dead. But imagery need not simply be televised to be vivid, nor does the world lack for testimonials of Russian brutality. "I remember a Chechen female sniper," a Russian soldier told L.A. Times reporter Maura Reynolds. "We just tore her apart with two armored personnel carriers, having tied her ankles with steel cables. There was a lot of blood, but the boys needed it." Maybe it's that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is simply more important strategically than Russia's war against Chechnya, in the same way that the attacks of 9/11 mattered more in the scheme of things than, say, Tamil Tiger atrocities in Sri Lanka. Yet even before 9/11, there was evidence that al Qaeda was feeding money and arms to Chechen fighters, putting Chechnya squarely into the context of what became the global war on terror. Evidence of al Qaeda involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is sparser, and only came to light in 2007. *Of course, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict inflames the Muslim world in a way the Chechen one does not. But why is that, when so many more Muslims are being victimized by Russia?* Then too, why does the wider world participate in the Muslim world's moral priorities? Why, for instance, do high-profile Western writers like Portuguese Nobelist Jos? Saramago make "solidarity" pilgrimages to Ramallah, but not to the Chechen capital of Grozny? Why do British academics organize boycotts of their Israeli counterparts, but not their Russian ones? *Why is Palestinian statehood considered a global moral imperative, but statehood for Chechnya is not?* Why does every Israeli prime minister invariably become a global pariah, when not one person in a thousand knows the name of Chechen "President" Ramzan Kadyrov, a man who, by many accounts, keeps a dungeon near his house in order to personally torture his political opponents? And why does the fact that Mr. Kadyrov is Vladimir Putin's handpicked enforcer in Chechnya not cause a shudder of revulsion as the Obama administration reaches for the "reset" button with Russia? I have a hypothesis. *Maybe the world attends to Palestinian grievances but not Chechen ones for the sole reason that Palestinians are, uniquely, the perceived victims of the Jewish state.* That is, when they are not being victimized by other Palestinians. Or being expelled *en masse* from Kuwait. Or being excluded from the labor force in Lebanon. Things you probably didn't know about, either. *As for the Chechens, too bad for their cause that no Jew will ever likely become president of Russia. * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/426f1231/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 21 17:09:54 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:09:54 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Appeasement, Judenrat - 2009" Message-ID: <855590370904211509n23d875dcm26723d64a68e25ea@mail.gmail.com> >From Rav Lazer Brody, who has consistently shown tremendous insight.... Oh, and for those unfamiliar with the term, the 'Judenrat' were the 'Jewish councils' that the Nazis set up in the various Jewish ghettos. When the Nazis wanted another 1,000 Jews to gas, the Judenrat drew up a list and provided them.. * Hanoch* ** Appeasement, Judenrat - 2009 All the world events down to the most seemingly mundane occurrences are none other than Hashem's way of talking to us. The more a person develops and strengthens emuna, the more he or she heightens spiritual awareness and is in tune with what's happening around us. Unfortunately, many people are in deep spiritual slumber and can't see past their next meal or the sports page of their local newspaper. King Solomon, the wisest of all men, said that there's nothing new under the sun. In other words, what comes around goes around. Today - Holocaust Remembrance Day - is a day when we have to take a good hard look at the world around us and ask ourselves some very serious questions. A true search for truth means that we don't throw away the search results if we find them unpleasant - the slightest selectivity is no longer truth. [image: Obama Chavez]Question #1: *Did appeasement end with Neville Chamberlain and the UK turning a blind eye to Hitler's seizure of Czechoslavakia in 1938*? Certainly not. Take a tyrannical muchacho like Chavez from Venezuela, who's none other than a Spanish-speaking Achmedinejad. Comes along Obama, and gives Chavez his "hey-bro" handshake (photo, left). Otto Reich, who was ambassador to Venezuela under President Reagan, remarked that Chavez sees the handshake "as a green light to continue dismantling democracy in Venezuela." Appeasement, or what? Obama's overtures to Iran and Achmedinejad is not only appeasement but a sign of utter weakness. The intrinsic message here is that Obama has no qualms in sacrificing friends and allies in order to implement his agenda. Luckily for us, Hashem runs the world. The naive liberals in the US don't realize what's happening behind the scenes between Obama and Iran. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Appeasement 2009 (Obama) is signalling to Iran that when the US leaves Iraq, it will turn a blind eye to Iran's seizing control of the Shiite region. Wait and see. Obama plans to sell Iraq down the river, and guess who's next in line... That brings us to Holocaust Day question #2: *Is there a Judenrat, 2009? Are there still Jews so opportunistic, so willing to cowtow to their overlords, that they sell the lives of their fellow Jews? *Sadly, the answer here is yes, too. [image: Lashon hara]Our sages teach us never to trust an individual with a vile tongue. In regards to Rahm Emanuel, the Washington Post sayshe is "Known for cursing about as freely as one breathes." These are your moral leaders, America? "Rahm" numerically in Hebrew is 240, the equivalent of "Amalek." People cite his background but he's bad news for the Jews. Like the representatives of the Judenrat, he will sell Jews like no antisemite could. Running his inane and arrogant mouth, he has declared, "In the next four years there is going to be a permanent status arrangement between Israel and the Palestinians on the basis of two states for two peoples, and it doesn't matter to us at all who is prime minister." Rahm Amalek thinks he's going to exile a quarter million Jews from Judea and Samaria, G-d forbid. What then, put them on cattle cars? Judenrat, 2009. G-d willing, Israel will be strong and our current leaders - may Hashem protect them and give them strength - won't give in to Western tyranny. As a matter of self-preservation, Israel will have to oppose American designs to create another Hamistan in Judea and Samaria. A face off between Israel and the USA, between Bibi and Obama could have far-reaching consequences for American Jews, who over the years have forgotten that they are still in exile. Holocaust Remembrance Day is a reminder to learn from the past. Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 02:01 AM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090421/35be46a8/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 01:12:48 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 01:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? In-Reply-To: <646F6E1FBA4649B1B77F270ECD9FF635@SPLITPIN> References: <646F6E1FBA4649B1B77F270ECD9FF635@SPLITPIN> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0904212312i801848cy759f571408946829@mail.gmail.com> Yes, we should be praying and hoping for Elijah to come soon and in our day. My five year old son Skip wants to set a place for Elijah every Sabbath now since we did so at Passover. I personally think it is a great idea. We always sing Eliyahu after Havdalah. It's his favorite part. Eliyahu turns our hearts to each other each time we sing together and talk about him. Kim On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Inglis wrote: > Shalom Everyone, > > I find the following statements very interesting. > > *Until now we have merely proven that, according to the Torah, Mashiach > can *potentially* be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'. However, many might find it > interesting to note that several Torah sources would seem to indicate that > not only *can *Mashiach die and be resurrected before he redeems the Jewish > people, but that the process *will* necessarily be so. > > *Two Moshiachs or One?* > > Some may have come across Talmudic literature that speaks of the notion > that our final exile will actually be completed by *two* Messianic > redeemers. One is known as 'Mashiach ben Yosef' and the other-'Mashiach ben > Dovid '. Each one is charged with his own unique mission.* > ** > From my studies of the Tanakh I also have come to the conclusion that there > will be 2 Messiahs who will lead Israel at the time of the end. > > I have never come across the title 'Mashiach ben Yosef' in the Tanakh. I > would be interested to know where this title comes from. > > I have read about 'Mashiach ben David' in the Tanakh and according to my > understanding he will be the one who will lead Judah to victory over their > enemies at the time of the end, and will bring peace to those in Israel. I > believe this will happen before Ephraim is brought back to Israel. > > From my studies of the Tanakh I have come to believe that the Mashiach who > will be the shepherd over Ephraim and the other tribes with Ephraim, during > their time in the wilderness, and the one who will lead them back to the > land of Israel will be the resurrected King David. I believe he will be the > one who will unite Judah and Ephraim and who will be king in Israel when > Judah and Ephraim are united as one nation in Israel and YeHoWaH's kingdom > is established. > > I also believe that before either of these Messiahs appear in these last > days that Elijah will come to teach us truth, and to turn the heart of the > fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. > > *Malachi 4:5-6* (3:23-24) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet > before the coming of the great and terrible day of YeHoWaH. And he shall > turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children > to their fathers; lest I come and smite the land with utter destruction. > > I believe that we should be praying for YeHoWaH to send Elijah to us as He > has promised He would, as I believe that Elijah will clear up all the > confusion among us. > > Shalom to all, > Sandra. > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/861e3f99/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:23:10 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:23:10 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Tazria/Metzora: Purifying Time and Soul Message-ID: <855590370904220423n4386d5aeme5cba157c270448e@mail.gmail.com> *Tazria/Metzora: Purifying Time and Soul* The Torah discusses various types of *tum'ah* (ritual impurity), the most prominent being *tzara'at*, a skin affliction similar to leprosy. Purification from these forms of impurity includes immersion in a *mikveh*(ritual bath) or natural spring. Immersion alone, however, is not sufficient; even after immersing, the individual remains impure until the start of the evening. "The sun sets and then he is ritually clean. He may then eat the sacred offerings that are his portion." [Lev. 22:7] *Waiting until the Day is 'Clean'* Curiously, the Talmud [*Berachot* 2a] interprets this verse in a forced fashion: "*The sun sets and then it*" - the day - "*is clean*" (i.e., finished). The Sages explained that the day must be completely over before the individual may partake of his offering. Why not understand the verse literally: when the sun sets, the person is ritually clean? Why emphasize that the day must be 'clean'? According to Maimonides in his *Guide for the Perplexed* [III: 47], different forms of *tum'ah* correspond to various flawed character traits, erroneous beliefs, and impure acts. The Sages wrote that *tzara'at*, for example, is the result of slander and haughtiness. It is logical, then, that the various stages of purification - immersion in a spring or *mikveh*, waiting until nighttime, and bringing an offering - will be connected to the correction of these faults. *Two Aspects to Repair* The Talmud refers to two levels of purification: purifying the day (*tehar yoma*), and purifying the individual (*tehar gavra*). What is the difference between the two? Our goal in life should be to grow spiritually and become closer to our Creator. When we sin, we stray from our overall objective. We have also misused time that could have been utilized for spiritual growth. A full life is one in which all of the days have been employed towards one's principle objective. Abraham, the Torah tells us, was *ba* *bayamim*, 'well advanced in days' [Gen. 24:1]. His days and years were full and complete, wholly occupied with spiritual pursuits. When we stray from our spiritual aspirations, we need to make two distinct efforts in order to return to our original path. If I were to upset a friend, I would first need to correct my hurtful behavior. However, that alone would be insufficient to restore the friendship to its former state. The relationship will remain fragile until I have made an additional effort to rebuild the ties of friendship and affection. The first stage - correcting the faulty behavior or flawed character trait ? is analogous to the cleansing action of immersion in water. We immerse ourselves in the *mikveh*, leaving behind negative traits and flawed deeds. As we immerse ourselves in spiritual repair, we restore to the dimension of time its original purity. The day has not been lost to sin. With the setting of the sun, we begin a new day and a new start. This is the first level of purification, what the Sages called *tehar* *yoma*. The day has been purified; we have rectified the dimension of time. Yet, we have not completely regained our previous state of purity. We still need to restore our former closeness to God. This is achieved through the final stage of purification: "*he may then eat the sacred offerings.*" With renewed desire to be close to God, we bring an offering. The offering (in Hebrew, *korban*, from the root *karav*, to draw near) enables us to draw closer to our Maker with awe and love. At this point, we repair our relationship with God. Not only has the element of time been rectified, we too have become cleansed and renewed. This is the level of *tehar* *gavra*, when the individual is fully purified, and his errors are transformed into merits. ["*Gold from the Land of Israel* " pp. 195-197.Adapted from *Ein Eyah* vol. I, pp. 2-3.] Rav Kook on the Net: RavKookTorah.org This week's Dvar Torah: RavKook.co.nr This Dvar Torah: TAZRIA59.htm To subscribe/unsubscribe or comments, write to: Rav Kook List --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Rav Kook List" group. To unsubscribe, send an email to: Rav-Kook-List-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Rav-Kook-List -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/bdc5fbb7/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 06:33:17 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:33:17 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] "Tazria: True Jewish Idealism" Message-ID: <855590370904220433x27a46cadj4bcd5adb74638f48@mail.gmail.com> Boker tov, Everything described in this article as "Jewish Idealism" could just as easily be referred to as, 'Ephramite Idealism,' of 'Bnei Noah Idealism'...think about it.... * Hanoch* Tazria: True Jewish Idealism Nisan 28, 5769, 22 April 09 12:18 by by Yehuda HaKohen (IsraelNN.com) "For thirty-three days she shall stay in blood of purity; she may not touch anything sacred and she may not enter the Sanctuary, until the completion of her days of purity." (*Vayikra* 12:4) Through the miracle of childbirth, human beings are able to reach a level of partnership with G-d. Man and woman join to conceive a new life, which then receives a soul from *HaShem*. And nine months later a child enters the world. But when born, this new life causes a spiritual impurity and contamination period for its mother. This impure period teaches us that the mere existence of life is not sufficient. Life derives its true value and meaning as a tool to be used in the service of *HaShem*. "Upon the completion of the days of her purity for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring a sheep within its first year for an *olah*-offering, and a young dove or a turtledove for a sin-offering, to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting, to the *kohen* He shall offer it before *HaShem* and atone for her, and she shall become purified from the source of her blood; this is the law for one who gives birth to a male or to a female." (*Vayikra* 12:6-7) After the mother completes her period of contamination, she begins a cleansing process, purifying herself and then bringing an offering to G-d at His Temple in Jerusalem. Only then can she consume sacrificial meat or * terumah*. The fact that merely cleansing herself is not sufficient for the mother to reach a true state of purity teaches that the mere absence of contamination is not yet the fulfillment of Israel's goal in the world. The Hebrew Nation's aspirations must rise higher than the elimination of the negative. Just as the mother brings an offering to the Temple, Israel must strive for positive achievement. A person is never entirely cleansed until coming to the resting place of G-d's Presence with an offering that represents atonement for the past and dedication to the future. The internalization of this concept is crucial for a proper understanding of Divine service. Because so many Jews abandoned the Torah in recent generations, Israel's collective goal became warped in many circles. The national mission of elevating existence and revealing G-d's Kingship to mankind was put on hold, while merely staying observant or working in *kiruv* (bringing lost Jews back to Torah observance) became the goal of the pious. While it is true that the Jewish Nation living in accordance with G-d's law is a prerequisite for achieving our Divine mission in Creation, many have regrettably forgotten the higher goal of Israel's lofty national destiny. As a result of personal religiosity becoming Israel's supposed reason for existence, many G-d-fearing communities developed a policy of sheltering their youth from anything outside of their ghettoized Judaism. Thus was created a Judaism of weakness that cowered from the outside world. Instead of going out to engage, revolutionize and sanctify the world, the Torah, for many people, became a protective wall to take shelter from foreign influences. Societal fences were erected in order to keep young Jews from leaving the house of study and becoming corrupted by what lurked outside its walls. Combined with Christian influences Israel encountered in the exile, it began to seem, mistakenly, that the role of the Torah was to constrict life rather than uplift it. This distorted offshoot of Judaism stands in stark contrast to the mission of *Am Yisrael*. While it is obviously dangerous to send vulnerable children out into a less-than-perfect world, Torah education should focus on strengthening and fortifying the Hebrew youth in order that they become impervious to the spiritual contamination of foreign cultures. Jews are required not to hide from impure philosophies, but to go out and challenge them, in order to bring mankind ever closer to G-d's Truth. Instead of taking cover from evil, Israel must confront and extinguish it from the world. The Nation of Israel can no longer afford to view ourselves as weak - a view that cripples the Torah and creates a Judaism of fear. In truth, the fuller and more idealistic Torah of *Eretz Yisrael* would succeed in attracting more Jews back to our path, many of whom are unimpressed by an exilic Judaism that seems archaic and devoid of life. *Kiruv* can be elevated to more successful heights on a national level, magnetizing our people back to Torah when confronted with the incredible goal of the Redemption process. The Nation of Israel must return to a healthy Torah of idealism; a Torah of action that calls upon the Jewish people to strive for positive achievement and not merely seek the avoidance of that which is negative. By infusing the Jewish youth with the Torah of Redemption - a proud Torah of love, courage and self-sacrifice - Israel's teachers can not only bring more lost Jews back to themselves, but also realize the exalted Israeli mission of illuminating existence with the light of *HaShem*. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/db93fa23/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 08:43:51 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 06:43:51 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Great background of the real issues Message-ID: <855590370904220643o66518b33l237e2c6f7b0c4563@mail.gmail.com> Great analysis and explanation of some of the issues... *Hanoch* ** *Basic disagreement concerning the two-state solution: the Palestinian refusal to recognize the State of Israel as the national state of the Jewish people has resurfaced, as it did at the Annapolis meeting* - Apr 19, 2009 Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center Benjamin Netanyahu shaking hands with George Mitchell (Amos Ben-Gershom for the Israeli Government Press Office, April 16, 2009). *Overview* The Israeli media have reported that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told George Mitchell, the American envoy to the Middle East, that the Palestinian Authority had to recognize Israel as a Jewish state before a discussion of the two-state solution (Israeli Radio Channel 2, IDF Radio, April 17, 2009). The prime minister`s office made it clear that ?the prime minister has never set that as a pre-condition for the opening of negotiations and dialogue with the Palestinians? (Prime Minister`s office, April 20, 2009). After meeting with Mitchell on April 16, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said that Israel expected an unequivocal commitment from the international community regarding not only issues of security but regarding Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people (Israeli Foreign Ministry website). After meeting with Foreign Minister Lieberman, George Mitchell said he had ?reiterated to the foreign minister that U.S. policy favors, with respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a two-state solution which will have a Palestinian state living in peace alongside the Jewish state of Israel ? [emphasis ITIC] (Reuters from Jerusalem, April 16, 2009). In response, spokesmen for the Palestinian Authority vehemently rejected the recognition of Israel as Jewish state, as they had also done at the Annapolis meeting. They claimed that the Israeli demand was meant to make it possible for Israel to reject the two-state solution and not honor previously-signed agreements. Saeb Erekat claimed that the United States and other countries refrained from recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, ignoring unequivocal American statements which do recognize Israel as a Jewish state (President Bush`s speech at Annapolis, 1 Mitchell`s statement quoted above). *Palestinian Authority responses to statements made byPrime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu* Saeb Erekat, chief PLO negotiator team, told a press conference that Mahmoud Abbas had met with Mitchell on April 17 and stressed the importance of the principle of the two-state solution and the PA`s commitment to it (Palestinian Television, April 17, 2009 ). However, in other interviews with the media Saeb Erekat rejected out of hand the [so called] approach of Prime Minister Netanyahu that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state before entering into negotiations for a Palestinian state. He also said that the Palestinian claims are based on previous agreements of Israel as a ?state,? but, he said, ?what Netanyahu is demanding now ? that we recognize Israel `s religious background ? is unacceptable.? He also claimed that Netanyahu`s statements made it clear that the government of Israel opposed the two-state solution and rejected previously-signed agreements (Saeb Erekat interviewed by the AKI news agency, Ramallah, April 16, 2009). Interviewed by Al-Jazeera TV, Saeb Erekat said that the issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state before conducting negotiations was ? absolutely unacceptable.? He claimed (contrary to fact) that the United States, since the Truman administration, and other countries, recognized Israel as ?the State of Israel? and not as ?a Jewish state.? He said that Netanyahu`s proposal was nothing more than a new way of rejecting the two-state principle and previously-signed agreements. He added that the ball was now in the American court and that ?it is the first test of the Obama administration...? (Al-Jazeera TV, April 16, 2009). Nabil Abu Rudeina, Palestinian Authority presidential spokesman, claimed that the new Israeli government had already begun posing obstacles to the two-state solution based on international legitimacy, the road map, the Arab peace initiative and the understandings reached during the Annapolis meeting (ignoring the fact that at Annapolis President Bush made it clear that the United States recognizes Israel as a Jewish state). He said it was a ?challenge? for international efforts and the international community, especially the United States, which had to ?take care of? Israeli policy ?out of the fear of its destructive implications for the entire region? (Wafa News Agency, Ramallah, April 16, 2009). *Fundamental disagreements concerning the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state and homeland for the Jewish people during the Annapolis process* The Palestinian Authority`s intense objection to recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, expressed with the formation of the new Israeli government, is not new. The issue of the two-state solution was a subject of dispute during the contacts held by the Israeli and PA negotiating teams when they tried to forge a joint document which would be ratified at the Annapolis meeting. The Israeli side insisted that the stating point would be Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, while the Palestinians utterly rejected the demand. Recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, along with fundamental disagreements over other core issues, were obstacles to formulating a joint Israeli-Palestinian document. Both sides were forced to make do with a vague ?joint understanding,? which did not relate to the disputed issues. The following statements about the Annapolis meeting were made by Palestinian Authority spokesmen: i) Abu Alaa`, head of the Palestinian negotiating team, meeting with the heads of the Palestinian security services, said that the Israeli demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state was ?unacceptable.? He added that the Palestinian side was completely opposed to a population exchange ?inside? [i.e., within the State of Israel] and refused to relinquish the [so called] Palestinian refugees` right to return, according to UN Resolution 194 (Wafa News Agency, November 14, 2007). ii) Saeb Erekat, a member of the Palestinian negotiating team, said of Prime Minister Olmert`s demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state, that Israel wanted ?something new.? He said that recognizing Israel as a Jewish state could not even be discussed internationally. He again said that ?it is not part of the agenda of the international community, the Palestinians or their leadership? (Voice of Palestine Radio, November 13, 2007). iii) Yasser Abd Rabbo, secretary of the PLO`s executive committee, said that Olmert`s demand that Israel be recognized as a Jewish state meant imposing ideological conditions to fan the flames of the conflict and lead to escalation. He added that ?peace is decided between two countries or sides, and it is not Israel `s business, or the Palestinians` business, to enter into discussions about international legitimacy and the basics of the peace process? (Voice of Palestine Radio, November 13, 2007 ). During the Annapolis meeting, despite the positive atmosphere and Arab and international support, there were still fundamental discrepancies between Israel and the Palestinian Authority concerning the issues to be negotiated, one of which was the Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. After the Annapolis meeting, Mahmoud Abbas seemed satisfied during interviews he gave to the Arab and Western media. However, when he and his aides were asked about recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, an issue raised in a speech by Ehud Olmert during the meeting, 2their responses were uniformly negative: i) Mahmoud Abbas said that ?there is the two-state idea ? Palestine and Israel ? and we, the Palestinians, do not have to give titles to any country...? He added that the Israeli population was Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and that there were other ethnic groups living there as well (Agence France Presse, November 29, 2009). ii) As to the question of Israel as a Jewish state, Mahmoud Abbas said: ?We oppose that appellation and we say that there is Israel and there is Palestine. There are both Jews and non-Jews [living] in Israel ? (Agence France Presse, December 1, 2007). iii) Nabil Abu Rudeina, Palestinian Authority presidential spokesman, said that the Palestinians had not agreed to a joint document because the Israelis raised an issue which was unacceptable for them: ? They [the Israelis] insist that the state is Jewish, and we did not accept that at all. Their have their reservations about the Arab peace initiative...? Therefore, he said, the joint document was replaced by a joint understanding, which was read by President Bush (Radio Sawt Al-Arab, November 28, 2009). *References* 1 On November 27, 2007, President Bush said ?the United States will keep its commitment to the security of Israel as a Jewish state and homeland for the Jewish people ? [emphasis ITIC] (White House website). 2 Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that the negotiation would be crowned by achieving President Bush`s vision of the two-state solution: A Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel, Jewish and democratic, living in security, the home of the Jewish people [ITIC emphasis] (Israeli Prime Minister`s website, November 28, 2009). 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/0c718287/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 09:00:33 2009 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:00:33 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Financing the United Israel Annual Meetings In-Reply-To: <729A0886-25EF-4B7E-A123-5DD83B934A77@earthlink.net> References: <729A0886-25EF-4B7E-A123-5DD83B934A77@earthlink.net> Message-ID: We will turn in our donation Sunday! We owe for last year also! Thanks for keeping us informed. Caleb and Amber Fordham On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:34 AM, James Tabor wrote: > I wanted to share some thoughts with all of you on financing the costs of > our UIWU annual meetings. First a bit of history and background. > > Holding an annual UIWU meeting each April of the year is part of the > founding bylaws of the organization and so far as I know there has never > been a year when such a meeting has been held. The upcoming gathering here > in Charlotte will mark the end of 65 years UIWU history--it will be our 66th > annual meeting. I began attending the gatherings in New York in 1993, the > year we celebrated the 50th anniversary and also David Horowitz's 90th > birthday. For several of us that was our first UI annual meeting, and I > think LaTrenda Deem, who was living in NY at the time, might have attended a > meeting or two even before 1993. Most of the annual meetings were held in > Manhattan but from time to time there were meetings in West Olive, Michigan > where Jack and Doris Trinker still live and meet each Sabbath (they attended > the Charlotte meeting last year and Jack is on our board), and also in > Salem, West Virginia, where there was also a local group, now represented > only by David Dillon and his mother Edna. They are the ones who gave us our > Torah scroll a few years back. Dennis, Timothy, and I have visited both the > Salem, WV location as well as the Michigan group. Since David's death in > 2002, we had one final meeting in NY in April, 2003, but then with the move > of the main offices of United Israel to Charlotte, we have held our annual > meetings here, beginning in 2004--so the meeting this year will be our sixth > in Charlotte. > > Last year, as our attendance grew, more outside speakers came in, and our > move to a larger and better hotel (Doubletree in Southpark) the costs of > holding the meeting rose significantly. In past years here in Charlotte > various ones who attended would donate a bit here or there to pick up our > expenses. We always seemed to break even. Last year was somewhat special > with Simcha Jacobovici flying in from Israel to be with us. The total costs > of holding the 2008 meeting ran about $10,000, and that did not include our > social music event on Sunday night that was paid for separately by special > donors. Quite a few people pitched in to carry these costs, even some who > could not attend but who wanted to help in this way, plus we had a three or > four who put in much larger gifts ($1000+), so we were able to pay all our > expenses. > > Our costs this year are considerably more modest, around $3000, not > including the Saturday night music event, which is financed separately, as > it was last year, and not out of the United Israel general fund. Several > people had suggested that we begin to charge a registration fee, maybe $100 > per person, to carry these costs. As you know, most conferences do this and > it is just considered part of attending. Even though I can see some merits > to this I really felt an aversion to going this route so my decision was to > still have an open meeting, with anyone free to attend without charging a > fee. So once again, as in the past, our plans are to finance our meeting > costs by asking those who are willing to make special donations. If everyone > gives a bit, as he or she is able, I think we will be okay. Those who want > to help who can not attend the meeting can mail in checks to our offices > (2124 Crown Centre Drive, Suite 200, Charlotte, NC 28227), and those who > will be here next weekend can just hand their donations to me or Timothy, > our treasurer, and we will send receipts after the meeting is over. I think > I made the right decision here and I just wanted to explain to everyone both > the background and how we plan to cover costs this year. > > Shalom, > > James > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/8fa9bcb5/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 22 12:39:51 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:39:51 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] "Tazria: True Jewish Idealism" In-Reply-To: <855590370904220433x27a46cadj4bcd5adb74638f48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <042220091739.17783.49EF56670008B7610000457722230647029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Amein Hanoch! This applies to us all. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Boker tov, Everything described in this article as "Jewish Idealism" could just as easily be referred to as, 'Ephramite Idealism,' of 'Bnei Noah Idealism'...think about it.... Hanoch Tazria: True Jewish Idealism Nisan 28, 5769, 22 April 09 12:18by by Yehuda HaKohen (IsraelNN.com) "For thirty-three days she shall stay in blood of purity; she may not touch anything sacred and she may not enter the Sanctuary, until the completion of her days of purity." (Vayikra 12:4) Through the miracle of childbirth, human beings are able to reach a level of partnership with G-d. Man and woman join to conceive a new life, which then receives a soul from HaShem. And nine months later a child enters the world. But when born, this new life causes a spiritual impurity and contamination period for its mother. This impure period teaches us that the mere existence of life is not sufficient. Life derives its true value and meaning as a tool to be used in the service of HaShem. "Upon the completion of the days of her purity for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring a sheep within its first year for an olah-offering, and a young dove or a turtledove for a sin-offering, to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting, to the kohen He shall offer it before HaShem and atone for her, and she shall become purified from the source of her blood; this is the law for one who gives birth to a male or to a female." (Vayikra 12:6-7) After the mother completes her period of contamination, she begins a cleansing process, purifying herself and then bringing an offering to G-d at His Temple in Jerusalem. Only then can she consume sacrificial meat or terumah. The fact that merely cleansing herself is not sufficient for the mother to reach a true state of purity teaches that the mere absence of contamination is not yet the fulfillment of Israel's goal in the world. The Hebrew Nation's aspirations must rise higher than the elimination of the negative. Just as the mother brings an offering to the Temple, Israel must strive for positive achievement. A person is never entirely cleansed until coming to the resting place of G-d's Presence with an offering that represents atonement for the past and dedication to the future. The internalization of this concept is crucial for a proper understanding of Divine service. Because so many Jews abandoned the Torah in recent generations, Israel's collective goal became warped in many circles. The national mission of elevating existence and revealing G-d's Kingship to mankind was put on hold, while merely staying observant or working in kiruv (bringing lost Jews back to Torah observance) became the goal of the pious. While it is true that the Jewish Nation living in accordance with G-d's law is a prerequisite for achieving our Divine mission in Creation, many have regrettably forgotten the higher goal of Israel's lofty national destiny. As a result of personal religiosity becoming Israel's supposed reason for existence, many G-d-fearing communities developed a policy of sheltering their youth from anything outside of their ghettoized Judaism. Thus was created a Judaism of weakness that cowered from the outside world. Instead of going out to engage, revolutionize and sanctify the world, the Torah, for many people, became a protective wall to take shelter from foreign influences. Societal fences were erected in order to keep young Jews from leaving the house of study and becoming corrupted by what lurked outside its walls. Combined with Christian influences Israel encountered in the exile, it began to seem, mistakenly, that the role of the Torah was to constrict life rather than uplift it. This distorted offshoot of Judaism stands in stark contrast to the mission of Am Yisrael. While it is obviously dangerous to send vulnerable children out into a less-than-perfect world, Torah education should focus on strengthening and fortifying the Hebrew youth in order that they become impervious to the spiritual contamination of foreign cultures. Jews are required not to hide from impure philosophies, but to go out and challenge them, in order to bring mankind ever closer to G-d's Truth. Instead of taking cover from evil, Israel must confront and extinguish it from the world. The Nation of Israel can no longer afford to view ourselves as weak - a view that cripples the Torah and creates a Judaism of fear. In truth, the fuller and more idealistic Torah of Eretz Yisrael would succeed in attracting more Jews back to our path, many of whom are unimpressed by an exilic Judaism that seems archaic and devoid of life. Kiruv can be elevated to more successful heights on a national level, magnetizing our people back to Torah when confronted with the incredible goal of the Redemption process. The Nation of Israel must return to a healthy Torah of idealism; a Torah of action that calls upon the Jewish people to strive for positive achievement and not merely seek the avoidance of that which is negative. By infusing the Jewish youth with the Torah of Redemption - a proud Torah of love, courage and self-sacrifice - Israel's teachers can not only bring more lost Jews back to themselves, but also realize the exalted Israeli mission of illuminating existence with the light of HaShem. www.IsraelNationalNews.com? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/0a2bce60/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 18:08:38 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:08:38 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] An easy way to make a BIG difference in Southern Israel Message-ID: <855590370904221608u7ae49eb2lad2ce4ef2b871f10@mail.gmail.com> One of the organizations I support regularly....please do what YOU can...see pics below, and circulate this to each of your friends and relatives who want to help. * Hanoch* www.bahavatyisrael.org.il In Israel: B'Ahavat Yisrael P.O. Box 247 Poriya Neve Oved 15210 Israel In US (tax deductible) Friends of B'Ahavat Yisrael 4809 Avenue N, PMB# 284 Brooklyn, NY 11234 To Donate Online |To Join Email List |To See Purim 2009 Sderot|To See Video of Pesach 2008 Sderot Please Forward To Those Who Care About Southern Israel We are moving our mailing list, please sign up to our new list at http://www.bahavatyisrael.org.il Dear Friends, The photos below were taken on Monday April 6, 2009 (12 of Nissan 5769) in Sderot. Thanks to numerous and generous donations many families (not enough) were able to celebrate Passover with dignity. As mentioned in previous letters, we at B'Ahavat Yisrael stand ready to make badly needed food deliveries to Sderot's most disadvantaged families. To make a donation towards a Sderot food drive please click below. With love of Israel, Joel Busner (Yosef Ben Tzion) Found and Director, "Because I am a Jew" Click here to donate Passover in Sderot 2009 / 5769 Loading for deliveries Menashe Maman, age 16 Assembling food packages Volunteer work starts young Packing chickens Separating Beef Pot Roasts More packages going out Loading warehouse for packing preparation Unloading supplies Getting ready to work (L)Jacques Cohen & Joel Busner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/805554e6/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 22 19:16:00 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:16:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the Archives! Message-ID: I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but just last night I was working on the archives display for our open house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I plan to put on display. Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the Internet. Shalom, James From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Apr 22 19:32:32 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:32:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Financing the United Israel Annual Meetings In-Reply-To: References: <729A0886-25EF-4B7E-A123-5DD83B934A77@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <95678C04-3C8C-439F-8F77-6BC200C7622D@earthlink.net> Okay, see you soon. James On Apr 22, 2009, at 10:00 AM, calb fordham wrote: > We will turn in our donation Sunday! We owe for last year also! > Thanks for keeping us informed. Caleb and Amber Fordham > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:34 AM, James Tabor > wrote: > I wanted to share some thoughts with all of you on financing the > costs of our UIWU annual meetings. First a bit of history and > background. > > Holding an annual UIWU meeting each April of the year is part of the > founding bylaws of the organization and so far as I know there has > never been a year when such a meeting has been held. The upcoming > gathering here in Charlotte will mark the end of 65 years UIWU > history--it will be our 66th annual meeting. I began attending the > gatherings in New York in 1993, the year we celebrated the 50th > anniversary and also David Horowitz's 90th birthday. For several of > us that was our first UI annual meeting, and I think LaTrenda Deem, > who was living in NY at the time, might have attended a meeting or > two even before 1993. Most of the annual meetings were held in > Manhattan but from time to time there were meetings in West Olive, > Michigan where Jack and Doris Trinker still live and meet each > Sabbath (they attended the Charlotte meeting last year and Jack is > on our board), and also in Salem, West Virginia, where there was > also a local group, now represented only by David Dillon and his > mother Edna. They are the ones who gave us our Torah scroll a few > years back. Dennis, Timothy, and I have visited both the Salem, WV > location as well as the Michigan group. Since David's death in 2002, > we had one final meeting in NY in April, 2003, but then with the > move of the main offices of United Israel to Charlotte, we have held > our annual meetings here, beginning in 2004--so the meeting this > year will be our sixth in Charlotte. > > Last year, as our attendance grew, more outside speakers came in, > and our move to a larger and better hotel (Doubletree in Southpark) > the costs of holding the meeting rose significantly. In past years > here in Charlotte various ones who attended would donate a bit here > or there to pick up our expenses. We always seemed to break even. > Last year was somewhat special with Simcha Jacobovici flying in from > Israel to be with us. The total costs of holding the 2008 meeting > ran about $10,000, and that did not include our social music event > on Sunday night that was paid for separately by special donors. > Quite a few people pitched in to carry these costs, even some who > could not attend but who wanted to help in this way, plus we had a > three or four who put in much larger gifts ($1000+), so we were able > to pay all our expenses. > > Our costs this year are considerably more modest, around $3000, not > including the Saturday night music event, which is financed > separately, as it was last year, and not out of the United Israel > general fund. Several people had suggested that we begin to charge a > registration fee, maybe $100 per person, to carry these costs. As > you know, most conferences do this and it is just considered part of > attending. Even though I can see some merits to this I really felt > an aversion to going this route so my decision was to still have an > open meeting, with anyone free to attend without charging a fee. So > once again, as in the past, our plans are to finance our meeting > costs by asking those who are willing to make special donations. If > everyone gives a bit, as he or she is able, I think we will be okay. > Those who want to help who can not attend the meeting can mail in > checks to our offices (2124 Crown Centre Drive, Suite 200, > Charlotte, NC 28227), and those who will be here next weekend can > just hand their donations to me or Timothy, our treasurer, and we > will send receipts after the meeting is over. I think I made the > right decision here and I just wanted to explain to everyone both > the background and how we plan to cover costs this year. > > Shalom, > > James > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/42584a7f/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Apr 22 19:50:52 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (mhyde) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:52 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!]] In-Reply-To: <49ECCF1E.9080004@westnet.com.au> References: <49ECCF1E.9080004@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks Joe and Margie, Will have to pick this back up later. Busy week with the weekend coming up so fast, I had better start packing. Shalom, Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of JOE INDOMENICO Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:38 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] RE: (Joe) Psalm 18 and II Samuel 22!]] Shalom Marvin and Margie, looking at this quote in all its simplicity and its intended meaning, I would suggest the following : The reign of a king being 40 years would refer to King David and his son Solomon, both of whom reigned over a united Israel for 40 years each. This was the only time in the history of monarchical Israel where this ever occurred. "And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years, seven years he reigned in Chevron, and thirty three years he reigned in Yerushalayim. And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, and his kingdom was firmly established" 1 Kings 2: 11-12. "Thus the time that Solomon reigned in Yerushalayim over all Yisrael was forty years" 1 Kings 11: 42. So the key to this quote is not the length of time, albeit a generation, but rather that the reign of a king must only be associated with a united kingdom. Hence the role of Mashiach ben Yosef is to start this process. Please note that the process is to bring the people back to Torah, teach the essential secrets of Torah, reach out to the non-Jews, and begin the preparations for redemption. In this case the period of 40 years may allude to a time of probation. If the nation does national teshuva, then the Malchut Shamayim or the Kingdom of Heaven which is on offer or at hand can become a reality. However, the message of this Mashiach is rejected ,he will die before completing this process. The emphasis is on the word "process." So the Christian claim that redemption was fulfilled two millenia ago is both false and misleading. Redemption and the Malchut Shamayim can only be achieved over a united kingdom. So Yeshua ben Yosef was the catalyst to start this process. You could say that the process of redemption is a work in progress. The unification of the two Mashiachs into one is pivotal to the unification of both houses. This is what most of us are experiencing at this point in time. Not only for the two houses but for many gentiles who will be joined to the ranks by HaShem as prophesied in Zechariah chapter two. There is another peculiar aspect that I have been working on for years that at this juncture I am not quite ready to share. There is an obscure Rabbinic teaching on Mashiach ben Peretz ben Yehudah. The piece I have been working on is entitled "From Mitzrayim to Eretz Yisrael, the Beit ha Mikdash the Chagim, a study in time and space." In time, b'Ezrat HaShem I will finally put the finishing touches on this work and will present it for your consideration. There is much soul seeking and prayer still to be done. This I hope will shed a different light on Yeshua ben Yosef. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/01ed9e4c/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 22 20:23:44 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:23:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the Archives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com> Hey James and All, We are really excited too - the band is here and we're packin' up the van. Road trip, yeah!! See you soon! Patty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the Archives! I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but just last night I was working on the archives display for our open house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I plan to put on display. Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the Internet. Shalom, James _______________________________________________ From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Apr 22 20:40:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:40:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A very thought provoking article... Message-ID: <855590370904221840l63b5e0faw8a02fd6cca7ff817@mail.gmail.com> *Why Israel Will Bomb Iran* David Samuels - Apr 09, 2009 Slate The more Israeli leaders huff and puff about their determination to stop Iran`s nuclear program, the more sophisticated analysts are inclined to believe that Israel is bluffing. After all, if George W. Bush refused to provide Israel with the bunker busters and refueling capacity to take out Iran`s nukes in 2008, the chance that Barack Obama will give Israel the green light anytime soon seems quite remote?this being the same President Obama who greeted North Korea`s recent missile launch with a speech outlining his plan to dismantle America`s nuclear arsenal on the way to realizing his dream of a nuclear-free world. Israel`s performance in the 2006 war in Lebanon was widely depicted as catastrophic, and with Israel`s diplomatic standing hitting new lows after the stomach-turning images of destruction from Gaza, the diplomatic consequences of a successful attack on Iranian nuclear facilities might be worse than the prospect of military failure. There is also the fact that no one knows exactly where Iran`s nuclear assets are. Many perfectly reasonable people chalk up the rhetorical excesses of both parties to the hot desert sun and assume that nothing particularly awful will happen whether Iran becomes a nuclear power or not. From a U.S. point of view, at least, there is little reason to doubt the analysis that a nuclear Iran with a few dozen bombs can be contained at relatively limited cost using the same strategies that successfully constrained an aggressive Soviet Empire armed with nearly 45,000 nuclear warheads at the height of the Cold War. What the nuclear optimists miss is that it is not the United States that is directly threatened by the Iranian nuclear program but Israel?and the calculations that drive our Middle Eastern client state are very different from those that guide the behavior of its superpower patron. Less sanguine types?who think that Israel isn`t bluffing?generally fall into two camps: those who think that the Israelis are crazy and require the firm hand of America to restrain them and those who think that the Iranian leadership lives on a different planet and will use nuclear weapons against Israel. Yet it is not necessary to stipulate that either party is crazy in order to see why an Israeli attack on Iran makes sense. >From the standpoint of international relations theory, the scariest thing about recent Israeli rhetoric is that an attack on Iran lines up quite well with Israel`s rational interests as a superpower client. While Israeli bluster is clearly calculated to push America to take a more aggressive stance toward Iran, that doesn`t mean the Israelis won`t actually attack if President Obama decides on a policy of engagement that leaves the Iranians with a viable nuclear option. In fact, the more you consider the rationality of an Israeli attack on Iran in the context of Israel`s relationship with its superpower patron, the more likely an attack appears. Given Iran`s recent technological triumphs, like the launch of the Omid communications satellite earlier this year and the lack of ambiguity about the aims of the Iranian nuclear program, it is hardly apocalyptic to expect an attack within the next year?assuming that the Russians continue to dither about delivering S-300 surface-to-air missiles to protect Iranian nuclear sites. A stepped-up delivery date for large numbers of S-300 missiles could lead to an earlier attack. The fact that U.S. and Israeli interests with regard to Iran may diverge in radical ways comes as a surprise to many mainstream analysts because of the tendency among both supporters and opponents of America`s "special relationship" with Israel to invoke various forms of mind-bending mumbo-jumbo?from dimwitted theories about an all-powerful Jewish conspiracy to childlike evocations of the community of democratic values that unites the two countries. While America`s embrace of Israel is partially motivated both by shared values and by the lobbying power of an influential minority group, neither Israel`s creaky democratic polity nor the hidden persuasive powers of AIPAC can claim much credit for the billions of dollars in American military credits that Israel enjoys?a vast corporate welfare program that benefits Pentagon defense contractors as much as it benefits Israel`s military. The key fact of the American-Israeli alliance that most commentators seem eager to elide is that Israel is America`s leading ally in the Middle East because it is the most powerful country in the Middle East. Critics of the American-Israeli relationship love to conflate American support for Israel before 1967 with America`s support since then by citing statistics for tens of billions of dollars in U.S. military credits and aid given to Israel "since 1948," when the Jewish State was founded. In fact, Israel`s rise to becoming a regional superpower was accomplished without any significant help from United States. Israel`s surreptitious program to build nuclear weapons was accomplished with the aid of the British and the French, who joined with Israel to seize the Suez Canal from Egypt`s rabble-rousing President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and who were then forced to give it back by Dwight D. Eisenhower. The Israeli air force pilots who destroyed the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian air forces on the ground flew French-made Myst?re jets?not American-made F-4 Phantoms. The U.S. Congress did not appropriate a single penny to help Israel accommodate an overwhelming influx of Holocaust survivors and poor Jewish refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, and other Arab countries until 1973?25 years after the founding of the state. By shattering the old balance of power in the Middle East with its spectacular military victory in the Six Day War, Israel announced itself to America as the reigning military power in the region and as a profoundly destabilizing influence that needed to be contained. The parallels between Israel`s rise to superpower-client status in the 1950s and 1960s and the Iranian march toward regional hegemony over the past decade are quite striking. Both Israel circa 1967 and modern-day Iran are non-Arab states that utilized innovative military tactics to panic the Arabs. Yet where Iran is a non-Arab country with a population of more than 70 million, Israel was and is a tiny non-Arab, non-Muslim country whose small population and seat-of-the-pants style of leadership made even the country`s modest colonial ambitions seem like a stretch. In the absence of any fixed plan of expansion, or any long-term plan for dealing with its neighbors, Israel decided to use its excess military power and captured lands as a chit that it could exchange for resources provided from outside the region by its wealthy American patron. Israel earned its role as an American client with a series of daring military victories won by a tiny embattled country with a shoestring budget and its back against the sea: the capture of the Suez Canal from Nasser in 1956, the audacious victory in 1967, and the development of a nuclear bomb. Yet the terms of the bargain that Israel struck would necessarily relegate such accomplishments to the history books. Israel traded its freedom to engage in high-risk, high-payoff exploits like the Suez Canal adventure or the Six Day War for the comfort of a military and diplomatic guarantee from the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world. As a regional American client, Israel would draw on the military and diplomatic power of its distant patron in exchange for allowing America to use its control over Israel as leverage with neighboring Arab states. With each American-brokered peace move?from Camp David to the Madrid Conference to Oslo and Annapolis?the United States has been able to hold up its leverage over Israel as both a carrot and a stick to the Arab world. Do what we want, and we will force the Israelis to behave. The client-patron relationship between the United States and Israel that allows Washington to control the politics of the Middle East is founded on two pillars: America`s ability to deliver concrete accomplishments, like the return of the Sinai to Egypt and the pledge to create a Palestinian state, along with the suggestion that Washington is manfully restraining wilder, more aggressive Israeli ambitions. The success of the American-Israeli alliance demands that both parties be active partners in a complex dance that involves a lot of play-acting?America pretends to rebuke Israel, just as Israel pretends to be restrained by American intervention from bombing Damascus or seizing the banks of the Euphrates. The instability of the U.S.-Israel relationship is therefore inherent in the terms of a patron-client relationship that requires managing a careful balance of Israeli strength and Israeli weakness. An Israel that runs roughshod over its neighbors is a liability to the United States?just as an Israel that lost the capacity to project destabilizing power throughout the region would quickly become worthless as a client. A corollary of this basic point is that the weaker and more dependent Israel becomes, the more Israeli interests and American interests are likely to diverge. Stripped of its ability to take independent military action, Israel`s value to the United States can be seen to reside in its ability to give the Golan Heights back to Syria and to carve out a Palestinian state from the remaining territories it captured in 1967?after which it would be left with only the territories of the pre-1967 state to barter for a declining store of U.S. military credits, which Washington might prefer to spend on wooing Iran. The untenable nature of this strategic calculus gives a cold-eyed academic analyst all the explanation she needs to explain Israel`s recent wars against Hezbollah and Hamas, its assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists and engineers, and its 2007 attack on the Syrian nuclear reactor. Israel`s attempts to restore its perceived capacity for game-changing independent military action are directed as much to its American patron as to its neighbors. Israel`s current strategic posture was established by former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who alternated strong, unpredictable military actions like Operation Defensive Shield and the final isolation of Yasser Arafat with invocations of the importance of peace and surprising concessions, such as the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Sharon also took care to balance his close relationship with President Bush with a program of diplomatic outreach to second-tier powers like Russia and India. An attack on Iran might be risky in dozens of ways, but it would certainly do wonders for restoring Israel`s capacity for game-changing military action. The idea that Iran can meaningfully retaliate against Israel through conventional means is more myth than fact. Even without using nuclear weapons, Israel has the capacity to flatten the Iranian economy by bombing a few strategic oil refineries, making a meaningful Iranian counterstroke much less likely than it first appears. If the 2006 Lebanon war showed the holes in Israel`s ability to fight a conventional ground war, it also showed the ability of the Israeli air force to destroy long-range missiles on the ground. Israel`s response to fresh barrages of missiles from Hezbollah and Hamas while engaged in a shooting war with Iran would presumably be even less restrained than it has been in the past. Short of an Iranian-hostage-rescue-mission-type debacle in which a small Israeli tactical force crashes in the Iranian desert, or a presidential order from Obama to shoot down Israeli planes on their way to Natanz, any Israeli air raid on Iran is likely to succeed in destroying masses of delicate equipment that the Iranians have spent a decade building at enormous cost in time and treasure. It is hard to believe that Iran could quickly or easily replace what it lost. Whether it resulted in delaying Iran`s march toward a nuclear bomb by two years, five years, or somewhere in between, the most important result of an Israeli bombing raid would be to puncture the myth of inevitability that has come to surround the Iranian nuclear project and that has fueled Iran`s rise as a regional hegemon. The idea of a mass public outcry against Israel in the Muslim world is probably also a fiction?given the public backing of the Gulf states and Egypt for Israel`s wars against Hezbollah and Hamas. As the only army in the region able to take on Iran and its clients, Israel has effectively become the hired army of the Sunni Arab states tasked by Washington with the job of protecting America`s favorite Middle Eastern tipple?oil. The parallels between Israel`s rise to superpower client status after 1967 and Iran`s recent rise offer another strong reason for Israel to act?and act fast. The current bidding for Iran`s favor is alarming to Israel not only because of the unfriendly proclamations of Iranian leaders but because of what an American rapprochement with Iran signals for the future of Israel`s status as an American client. While America would probably benefit by playing Israel and Iran against each other for a while to extract the maximum benefit from both relationships, it is hard to see how America would manage to please both clients simultaneously and quite easy to imagine a world in which Iran?with its influence in Afghanistan and Iraq, its control over Hezbollah and Hamas, and easy access to leading members of al-Qaida?would be the partner worth pleasing. Bombing Iran`s nuclear facilities is the surest way for Israel to restore the image of strength and unpredictability that made it valuable to the United States after 1967 while also eliminating Iran as a viable partner for America`s favor. The fact that this approach may be the international-relations equivalent of keeping your boyfriend by shooting the other cute girl he likes in the head is an indicator of the difference between high-school romance and alliances between states?and hardly an argument for why it won`t work. Shorn of its nuclear program and unable to retaliate against Israel through conventional military means, Iran would be shown to be a paper tiger?to the not-so-secret delight of America`s Sunni Arab allies in the Gulf. Iran`s local clients like Syria and Hamas would be likely to distance themselves from an over-leveraged Persian would-be hegemon whose ruined nuclear facilities would be visible on Google Earth. The only real downside for Israel of an attack on Iran is Washington`s likely response to the anger of the Arab street and the European street, both of which are likely to express their fierce outrage against Israel and the United States. The price of an Israeli attack on Iran is therefore clear to anyone who reads Al Ahram or the Guardian: a Palestinian state. It seems fair to say that both Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak see the establishment of some kind of Palestinian state as inevitable and also as posing real security risks to Israel. Yet, in a perverse way, the idea that the price of an attack on Iran will be the establishment of a Palestinian state makes the logic of such an attack even clearer. Israel`s leaders know that the security threats inherent in giving up most of the West Bank will be greatly augmented or diminished depending on how a Palestinian state is born. A Palestinian state born as the result of Israeli weakness is a much greater danger to Israel than a state born out of Israeli strength. Ariel Sharon was able to withdraw from Gaza because he defeated Arafat and crushed the second intifada. Desperate to rid themselves of the bad PR and the demographic threat posed by maintaining Israel`s hold over the West Bank, Sharon`s successors have been unable to find a victory big enough to allow them to retreat. Nor are they able to reconcile themselves to the threat posed by images of a defeated Israel being forced to withdraw from Hebron and Nablus by triumphant Palestinian militias backed by Iran. The inevitability of a future Palestinian state is the most powerful argument for the inevitability of an Israeli attack on Iran?unless the Iranian nuclear program is stopped by other means. Taking out the Iranian nuclear program is the one obvious avenue by which Israel can turn the debilitating drip-drip-drip of territorial giveaways and international condemnation into a convincing appearance of strength. Destroying a respectable number of Iranian centrifuges will end Iran`s march to regional hegemony and eliminate Israel`s chief rival for America`s affections while also allowing Israel to gain the legal and demographic benefits of a Palestinian state with a minimum of long-term risk. Israel`s version of a nuclear grand bargain that brings peace to the Middle East may be messier and more violent than what the Obama administration imagines can be accomplished through sanctions, blandishments, and the invocation of Barack Obama`s magic middle name. But who can really argue with the idea of trading the Iranian nuclear bomb for a Palestinian state? Saudi Arabia would be happy. Egypt would be happy. Bahrain, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates would be happy. Jordan would be happy. Iraq would be happy. Two-thirds of the Lebanese would be happy. The Palestinians would go about building their state, and Israel would buy itself another 40 years as the only nuclear-armed country in the Middle East. Iran would not be happy. But who said peace won`t have a price? 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here . Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/c988800a/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 22 21:58:26 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:58:26 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] A very thought provoking article... In-Reply-To: <855590370904221840l63b5e0faw8a02fd6cca7ff817@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <042320090258.25527.49EFD950000CFC52000063B722218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Hanoch, A most excellent article (though very long). If I may, I would like to apply a shorter analogy; Israel is the "wild card". She always has been. Not because the US or the world made her so, but because G-d did. Those who play poker know that wild cards only have value when the hand is finally played, until then the game is a matter of bluffing. When the wild card is convinced that it must play because those at the table have convinced it that they are weak, it will play it's hand, it has no choice. The world is currently engaged in a exercise of calling each others bluff. There are those of us that believe that if Israel is convinced that it's only ally has become weak (which seems to be well on it's way), it will have no choice but to act in order to secure it's position in the region, regardless of the cost. Gaza was a warning. This is a very risky game. I for one like to think that I am not deluded, Israel is not mad but Persia has much to prove, and much to gain if allowed to. We'll see. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Why Israel Will Bomb Iran David Samuels - Apr 09, 2009 Slate The more Israeli leaders huff and puff about their determination to stop Iran`s nuclear program, the more sophisticated analysts are inclined to believe that Israel is bluffing. After all, if George W. Bush refused to provide Israel with the bunker busters and refueling capacity to take out Iran`s nukes in 2008, the chance that Barack Obama will give Israel the green light anytime soon seems quite remote?this being the same President Obama who greeted North Korea`s recent missile launch with a speech outlining his plan to dismantle America`s nuclear arsenal on the way to realizing his dream of a nuclear-free world. Israel`s performance in the 2006 war in Lebanon was widely depicted as catastrophic, and with Israel`s diplomatic standing hitting new lows after the stomach-turning images of destruction from Gaza, the diplomatic consequences of a successful attack on Iranian nuclear facilities might be worse than the prospect of military failure. There is also the fact that no one knows exactly where Iran`s nuclear assets are. Many perfectly reasonable people chalk up the rhetorical excesses of both parties to the hot desert sun and assume that nothing particularly awful will happen whether Iran becomes a nuclear power or not. From a U.S. point of view, at least, there is little reason to doubt the analysis that a nuclear Iran with a few dozen bombs can be contained at relatively limited cost using the same strategies that successfully constrained an aggressive Soviet Empire armed with nearly 45,000 nuclear warheads at the height of the Cold War. What the nuclear optimists miss is that it is not the United States that is directly threatened by the Iranian nuclear program but Israel?and the calculations that drive our Middle Eastern client state are very different from those that guide the behavior of its superpower patron. Less sanguine types?who think that Israel isn`t bluffing?generally fall into two camps: those who think that the Israelis are crazy and require the firm hand of America to restrain them and those who think that the Iranian leadership lives on a different planet and will use nuclear weapons against Israel. Yet it is not necessary to stipulate that either party is crazy in order to see why an Israeli attack on Iran makes sense. >From the standpoint of international relations theory, the scariest thing about recent Israeli rhetoric is that an attack on Iran lines up quite well with Israel`s rational interests as a superpower client. While Israeli bluster is clearly calculated to push America to take a more aggressive stance toward Iran, that doesn`t mean the Israelis won`t actually attack if President Obama decides on a policy of engagement that leaves the Iranians with a viable nuclear option. In fact, the more you consider the rationality of an Israeli attack on Iran in the context of Israel`s relationship with its superpower patron, the more likely an attack appears. Given Iran`s recent technological triumphs, like the launch of the Omid communications satellite earlier this year and the lack of ambiguity about the aims of the Iranian nuclear program, it is hardly apocalyptic to expect an attack within the next year?assuming that the Russians continue to dither about delivering S-300 surface-to-air missiles to protect Iranian nuclear sites. A stepped-up delivery date for large numbers of S-300 missiles could lead to an earlier attack. The fact that U.S. and Israeli interests with regard to Iran may diverge in radical ways comes as a surprise to many mainstream analysts because of the tendency among both supporters and opponents of America`s "special relationship" with Israel to invoke various forms of mind-bending mumbo-jumbo?from dimwitted theories about an all-powerful Jewish conspiracy to childlike evocations of the community of democratic values that unites the two countries. While America`s embrace of Israel is partially motivated both by shared values and by the lobbying power of an influential minority group, neither Israel`s creaky democratic polity nor the hidden persuasive powers of AIPAC can claim much credit for the billions of dollars in American military credits that Israel enjoys?a vast corporate welfare program that benefits Pentagon defense contractors as much as it benefits Israel`s military. The key fact of the American-Israeli alliance that most commentators seem eager to elide is that Israel is America`s leading ally in the Middle East because it is the most powerful country in the Middle East. Critics of the American-Israeli relationship love to conflate American support for Israel before 1967 with America`s support since then by citing statistics for tens of billions of dollars in U.S. military credits and aid given to Israel "since 1948," when the Jewish State was founded. In fact, Israel`s rise to becoming a regional superpower was accomplished without any significant help from United States. Israel`s surreptitious program to build nuclear weapons was accomplished with the aid of the British and the French, who joined with Israel to seize the Suez Canal from Egypt`s rabble-rousing President Gamal Abdel Nasser, and who were then forced to give it back by Dwight D. Eisenhower. The Israeli air force pilots who destroyed the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian air forces on the ground flew French-made Myst?re jets?not American-made F-4 Phantoms. The U.S. Congress did not appropriate a single penny to help Israel accommodate an overwhelming influx of Holocaust survivors and poor Jewish refugees from Yemen, Iraq, Egypt, and other Arab countries until 1973?25 years after the founding of the state. By shattering the old balance of power in the Middle East with its spectacular military victory in the Six Day War, Israel announced itself to America as the reigning military power in the region and as a profoundly destabilizing influence that needed to be contained. The parallels between Israel`s rise to superpower-client status in the 1950s and 1960s and the Iranian march toward regional hegemony over the past decade are quite striking. Both Israel circa 1967 and modern-day Iran are non-Arab states that utilized innovative military tactics to panic the Arabs. Yet where Iran is a non-Arab country with a population of more than 70 million, Israel was and is a tiny non-Arab, non-Muslim country whose small population and seat-of-the-pants style of leadership made even the country`s modest colonial ambitions seem like a stretch. In the absence of any fixed plan of expansion, or any long-term plan for dealing with its neighbors, Israel decided to use its excess military power and captured lands as a chit that it could exchange for resources provided from outside the region by its wealthy American patron. Israel earned its role as an American client with a series of daring military victories won by a tiny embattled country with a shoestring budget and its back against the sea: the capture of the Suez Canal from Nasser in 1956, the audacious victory in 1967, and the development of a nuclear bomb. Yet the terms of the bargain that Israel struck would necessarily relegate such accomplishments to the history books. Israel traded its freedom to engage in high-risk, high-payoff exploits like the Suez Canal adventure or the Six Day War for the comfort of a military and diplomatic guarantee from the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world. As a regional American client, Israel would draw on the military and diplomatic power of its distant patron in exchange for allowing America to use its control over Israel as leverage with neighboring Arab states. With each American-brokered peace move?from Camp David to the Madrid Conference to Oslo and Annapolis?the United States has been able to hold up its leverage over Israel as both a carrot and a stick to the Arab world. Do what we want, and we will force the Israelis to behave. The client-patron relationship between the United States and Israel that allows Washington to control the politics of the Middle East is founded on two pillars: America`s ability to deliver concrete accomplishments, like the return of the Sinai to Egypt and the pledge to create a Palestinian state, along with the suggestion that Washington is manfully restraining wilder, more aggressive Israeli ambitions. The success of the American-Israeli alliance demands that both parties be active partners in a complex dance that involves a lot of play-acting?America pretends to rebuke Israel, just as Israel pretends to be restrained by American intervention from bombing Damascus or seizing the banks of the Euphrates. The instability of the U.S.-Israel relationship is therefore inherent in the terms of a patron-client relationship that requires managing a careful balance of Israeli strength and Israeli weakness. An Israel that runs roughshod over its neighbors is a liability to the United States?just as an Israel that lost the capacity to project destabilizing power throughout the region would quickly become worthless as a client. A corollary of this basic point is that the weaker and more dependent Israel becomes, the more Israeli interests and American interests are likely to diverge. Stripped of its ability to take independent military action, Israel`s value to the United States can be seen to reside in its ability to give the Golan Heights back to Syria and to carve out a Palestinian state from the remaining territories it captured in 1967?after which it would be left with only the territories of the pre-1967 state to barter for a declining store of U.S. military credits, which Washington might prefer to spend on wooing Iran. The untenable nature of this strategic calculus gives a cold-eyed academic analyst all the explanation she needs to explain Israel`s recent wars against Hezbollah and Hamas, its assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists and engineers, and its 2007 attack on the Syrian nuclear reactor. Israel`s attempts to restore its perceived capacity for game-changing independent military action are directed as much to its American patron as to its neighbors. Israel`s current strategic posture was established by former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who alternated strong, unpredictable military actions like Operation Defensive Shield and the final isolation of Yasser Arafat with invocations of the importance of peace and surprising concessions, such as the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Sharon also took care to balance his close relationship with President Bush with a program of diplomatic outreach to second-tier powers like Russia and India. An attack on Iran might be risky in dozens of ways, but it would certainly do wonders for restoring Israel`s capacity for game-changing military action. The idea that Iran can meaningfully retaliate against Israel through conventional means is more myth than fact. Even without using nuclear weapons, Israel has the capacity to flatten the Iranian economy by bombing a few strategic oil refineries, making a meaningful Iranian counterstroke much less likely than it first appears. If the 2006 Lebanon war showed the holes in Israel`s ability to fight a conventional ground war, it also showed the ability of the Israeli air force to destroy long-range missiles on the ground. Israel`s response to fresh barrages of missiles from Hezbollah and Hamas while engaged in a shooting war with Iran would presumably be even less restrained than it has been in the past. Short of an Iranian-hostage-rescue-mission-type debacle in which a small Israeli tactical force crashes in the Iranian desert, or a presidential order from Obama to shoot down Israeli planes on their way to Natanz, any Israeli air raid on Iran is likely to succeed in destroying masses of delicate equipment that the Iranians have spent a decade building at enormous cost in time and treasure. It is hard to believe that Iran could quickly or easily replace what it lost. Whether it resulted in delaying Iran`s march toward a nuclear bomb by two years, five years, or somewhere in between, the most important result of an Israeli bombing raid would be to puncture the myth of inevitability that has come to surround the Iranian nuclear project and that has fueled Iran`s rise as a regional hegemon. The idea of a mass public outcry against Israel in the Muslim world is probably also a fiction?given the public backing of the Gulf states and Egypt for Israel`s wars against Hezbollah and Hamas. As the only army in the region able to take on Iran and its clients, Israel has effectively become the hired army of the Sunni Arab states tasked by Washington with the job of protecting America`s favorite Middle Eastern tipple?oil. The parallels between Israel`s rise to superpower client status after 1967 and Iran`s recent rise offer another strong reason for Israel to act?and act fast. The current bidding for Iran`s favor is alarming to Israel not only because of the unfriendly proclamations of Iranian leaders but because of what an American rapprochement with Iran signals for the future of Israel`s status as an American client. While America would probably benefit by playing Israel and Iran against each other for a while to extract the maximum benefit from both relationships, it is hard to see how America would manage to please both clients simultaneously and quite easy to imagine a world in which Iran?with its influence in Afghanistan and Iraq, its control over Hezbollah and Hamas, and easy access to leading members of al-Qaida?would be the partner worth pleasing. Bombing Iran`s nuclear facilities is the surest way for Israel to restore the image of strength and unpredictability that made it valuable to the United States after 1967 while also eliminating Iran as a viable partner for America`s favor. The fact that this approach may be the international-relations equivalent of keeping your boyfriend by shooting the other cute girl he likes in the head is an indicator of the difference between high-school romance and alliances between states?and hardly an argument for why it won`t work. Shorn of its nuclear program and unable to retaliate against Israel through conventional military means, Iran would be shown to be a paper tiger?to the not-so-secret delight of America`s Sunni Arab allies in the Gulf. Iran`s local clients like Syria and Hamas would be likely to distance themselves from an over-leveraged Persian would-be hegemon whose ruined nuclear facilities would be visible on Google Earth. The only real downside for Israel of an attack on Iran is Washington`s likely response to the anger of the Arab street and the European street, both of which are likely to express their fierce outrage against Israel and the United States. The price of an Israeli attack on Iran is therefore clear to anyone who reads Al Ahram or the Guardian: a Palestinian state. It seems fair to say that both Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak see the establishment of some kind of Palestinian state as inevitable and also as posing real security risks to Israel. Yet, in a perverse way, the idea that the price of an attack on Iran will be the establishment of a Palestinian state makes the logic of such an attack even clearer. Israel`s leaders know that the security threats inherent in giving up most of the West Bank will be greatly augmented or diminished depending on how a Palestinian state is born. A Palestinian state born as the result of Israeli weakness is a much greater danger to Israel than a state born out of Israeli strength. Ariel Sharon was able to withdraw from Gaza because he defeated Arafat and crushed the second intifada. Desperate to rid themselves of the bad PR and the demographic threat posed by maintaining Israel`s hold over the West Bank, Sharon`s successors have been unable to find a victory big enough to allow them to retreat. Nor are they able to reconcile themselves to the threat posed by images of a defeated Israel being forced to withdraw from Hebron and Nablus by triumphant Palestinian militias backed by Iran. The inevitability of a future Palestinian state is the most powerful argument for the inevitability of an Israeli attack on Iran?unless the Iranian nuclear program is stopped by other means. Taking out the Iranian nuclear program is the one obvious avenue by which Israel can turn the debilitating drip-drip-drip of territorial giveaways and international condemnation into a convincing appearance of strength. Destroying a respectable number of Iranian centrifuges will end Iran`s march to regional hegemony and eliminate Israel`s chief rival for America`s affections while also allowing Israel to gain the legal and demographic benefits of a Palestinian state with a minimum of long-term risk. Israel`s version of a nuclear grand bargain that brings peace to the Middle East may be messier and more violent than what the Obama administration imagines can be accomplished through sanctions, blandishments, and the invocation of Barack Obama`s magic middle name. But who can really argue with the idea of trading the Iranian nuclear bomb for a Palestinian state? Saudi Arabia would be happy. Egypt would be happy. Bahrain, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates would be happy. Jordan would be happy. Iraq would be happy. Two-thirds of the Lebanese would be happy. The Palestinians would go about building their state, and Israel would buy itself another 40 years as the only nuclear-armed country in the Middle East. Iran would not be happy. But who said peace won`t have a price? 3965 W. 83rd. Street #292 Shawnee Mission, KS 66208 I Phone: 913.648.0022 I Fax: 913.648.7997 This site is designed for standards compliant browsers. If your browser is not standards compliant, download one here. Website copyright ? 2006. Unity Coalition for Israel. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090423/bcd2fc38/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 22 22:01:52 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:01:52 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! In-Reply-To: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com> References: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com> Message-ID: <042320090301.1978.49EFDA1F000A238F000007BA22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Dave and Patty, We're ready to go too. See ya'll Friday. Be careful on the road. (I put new strings on the guitar). ;-{)} -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- > Hey James and All, > > We are really excited too - the band is here and we're packin' up the van. > Road trip, yeah!! > > See you soon! > > Patty > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the > Archives! > > I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting > this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but > just last night I was working on the archives display for our open > house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David > Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really > put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 > year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant > things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of > you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now > displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on > the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we > have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I > plan to put on display. > > Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement > Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really > exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some > could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the > Internet. > > Shalom, > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090423/067e93a2/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 22 22:26:29 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:26:29 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Sweden today.... In-Reply-To: <855590370904210516n2e2a492ah348ecd8796ace067@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <042320090326.10961.49EFDFE50001AFA800002AD122218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Heavy sigh. My family is Swedish and I am ashamed. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from Hanoch Young : -------------- Unbelievable....the jihad continues in the most unlikely of places.... Hanoch Click here: YouTube - CBN: Malm?, Sweden: Growing Muslim Influence -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090423/074bbb2a/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Apr 22 22:47:56 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 23:47:56 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! In-Reply-To: <042320090301.1978.49EFDA1F000A238F000007BA22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com> <042320090301.1978.49EFDA1F000A238F000007BA22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <07ee01c9c3c6$4c276180$e4762480$@com> Hi John! I am so excited to see you and Carin and hear your new song! Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! Hey Dave and Patty, We're ready to go too. See ya'll Friday. Be careful on the road. (I put new strings on the guitar). ;-{)} -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- > Hey James and All, > > We are really excited too - the band is here and we're packin' up the van. > Road trip, yeah!! > > See you soon! > > Patty > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the > Archives! > > I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting > this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but > just last night I was working on the archives display for our open > house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David > Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really > put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 > year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant > things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of > you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now > displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on > the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we > have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I > plan to put on display. > > Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement > Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really > exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some > could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the > Internet. > > Shalom, > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090422/be5503e4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 22 22:57:16 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:57:16 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the CharlotteMeeting--Revealing theArchives! In-Reply-To: <07ee01c9c3c6$4c276180$e4762480$@com> References: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com><042320090301.1978.49EFDA1F000A238F000007BA22218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <07ee01c9c3c6$4c276180$e4762480$@com> Message-ID: <042320090357.21344.49EFE71B000D803F0000536022218801869B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> See ya soon! -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- Hi John! I am so excited to see you and Carin and hear your new song! Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! Hey Dave and Patty, We're ready to go too. See ya'll Friday. Be careful on the road. (I put new strings on the guitar). ;-{)} -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- > Hey James and All, > > We are really excited too - the band is here and we're packin' up the van. > Road trip, yeah!! > > See you soon! > > Patty > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the > Archives! > > I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting > this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but > just last night I was working on the archives display for our open > house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David > Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really > put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 > year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant > things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of > you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now > displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on > the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we > have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I > plan to put on display. > > Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement > Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really > exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some > could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the > Internet. > > Shalom, > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090423/7ab2a867/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Thu Apr 23 09:35:12 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:35:12 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! Message-ID: I can't wait to hear all about it. May you all arrive safely and have a wonderful time of fellowship and bonding. I will be praying for you all - and be thinking about James's surprise announcement (you're such a tease James - I can't wait to hear!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090424/3d717e7d/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Apr 23 11:54:07 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 11:54:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! References: <078f01c9c3b2$2638a010$72a9e030$@com> Message-ID: Ditto, Patty and All: Getting ready for an all nighter....driving that is! Procrastination seems to be catching up...lol dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patty " To: Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:23 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing theArchives! > Hey James and All, > > We are really excited too - the band is here and we're packin' up the van. > Road trip, yeah!! > > See you soon! > > Patty > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor > Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Excited about the Charlotte Meeting--Revealing the > Archives! > > I am getting really excited about the Charlotte United Israel meeting > this weekend for lots of reasons, our exciting program included, but > just last night I was working on the archives display for our open > house Saturday evening at our offices, where we have the David > Horowitz memorial library. This will be the first time we have really > put things on public display. What I want to do is highlight the 65 > year history of United Israel World Union, but also many significant > things from the long and fascinating life of David Horowitz. Some of > you have seen the Charlotte offices but we have never until now > displayed all we have uncovered over the past four years of working on > the archives. You are not going to believe some of the treasures we > have. I can't wait to show everyone through our collection and what I > plan to put on display. > > Also, I can't wait to tell everyone about my special announcement > Sunday night!! Secret, secret...but again, it is going to be really > exciting. I wish all of you could be here with us and I realize some > could not who wanted to be, so we will do our best to link up via the > Internet. > > Shalom, > > James > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Apr 23 15:40:13 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 06:40:13 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU CONFERENCE. Message-ID: <49F0D22D.8000003@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090424/48fe0806/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 23 22:17:36 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 03:17:36 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Rollin' Message-ID: <1844320324-1240543071-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1796545662-@bxe1195.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We are underway, Just outside Jackson MS. See ya'll soon John C. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 02:02:58 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? In-Reply-To: <1c8dbb6e0904212312i801848cy759f571408946829@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <971014.91648.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Joe and All, ? Some thoughts on your initial post of Two Messiahs and the rabbinic thoughts. I have recently thought that the Scriptures of Messianic? prophecy can be open ended. If you take the rabbinic thought of the contradiction between the prophecy in Daniel where Messiah will come in the clouds compared to the prophecy in Zechariah that Messiah will come lowly riding on a donkey and how this was thought to be if the Nation of Israel merited it Messiah would come quickly in the clouds and if not would come slowly riding on a donkey and tie it to Two Messiahs or one. ? ?I look at the message of Yeshua and compare his mission to Messiah ben Joseph. He states that he did not come for the well but the sick and that he came for the lost sheep of Israel. The southern Kingdom (Judah) , although having problems, were for the most part the son who stayed home, was well, and not lost. They benefited from Yeshua's deeper teachings or hidden secrets of Torah. Some were amazed at his insights of Torah. The Northern Kingdom, the lost sheep, the sick and the son who took his inheritance and left needed to be brought and welcomed back home. The restoration of the tribes to one unity in Torah and Hashem. ? The questions I have are: If the nation of Israel as a whole had repented and been restored at the time of Yeshua would he have then come as Messiah ben David? Did he make statements that the offer was there? Would the 70th week of Daniel happen right then consecutively without a gap? Peter makes a speech in Acts 3 that G-d had fulfilled what he had foretold in the prophets that his annoited one would suffer and that if repentence would happen and refreshing would occur G-d could send the annoited one back who was the appointed one that being Yeshua. That Yeshua needed to remain in Heaven until the time of ?restoration of all things. ? I realize that not all here agree with Yeshua being the Messiah and for those that do not look at this as a hypothetical. ? Susie --- On Tue, 4/21/09, kim alvarado wrote: From: kim alvarado Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:12 PM Yes, we should be praying and hoping for Elijah to come soon and in our day. ?My five year old son Skip wants to set a place for Elijah every Sabbath now since we did so at Passover. ?I personally think it is a great idea. ?We always sing Eliyahu after Havdalah. ?It's his favorite part. ?Eliyahu turns our hearts to each other each time we sing together and talk about him. Kim On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Inglis wrote: Shalom Everyone, ? I find the following statements very interesting. ? Until now we have merely proven that, according to the Torah, Mashiach can?*potentially* be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'.? However, many might find it interesting to note that several Torah sources would seem to indicate that not only *can *Mashiach die and be resurrected before he redeems the Jewish people, but that the process *will* necessarily be so. *Two Moshiachs or One?* Some may have come across Talmudic literature that speaks of the notion that our final exile will actually be completed by *two* Messianic redeemers. One is known as 'Mashiach ben Yosef' and the other-'Mashiach ben Dovid '.? Each one is charged with his own unique mission.? ? >From my studies of the Tanakh I also have come to the conclusion that there will be 2 Messiahs who will lead Israel at the time of the end. ? I have never come across the title 'Mashiach ben Yosef' in the Tanakh. I would be interested to know where this title comes from. ? I have read about 'Mashiach ben David' in the Tanakh and according to my understanding he will be the one who will lead Judah to victory over their enemies at the time of the end, and will bring peace to those in Israel. I believe this will happen before Ephraim is brought back to Israel. ? >From my studies of the Tanakh I have come to believe that the Mashiach who will be the shepherd over Ephraim and the other tribes with Ephraim, during their time in the wilderness, and the one who will lead them back to the land of Israel will be the resurrected King David. I believe he will be the one who will unite Judah and Ephraim and who will be king in Israel when Judah and Ephraim are united as one nation in Israel and YeHoWaH's kingdom is established. ? I also believe that before either of these Messiahs appear in these last days that Elijah will come to teach us truth, and to turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. ? Malachi 4:5-6 (3:23-24) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of YeHoWaH. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the land with utter destruction. ? I believe that we should be praying for YeHoWaH to send Elijah to us as He has promised He would, as I believe that Elijah will clear up all the confusion among us. ? Shalom to all, Sandra. ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090424/282c4fea/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 24 02:11:25 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? In-Reply-To: <971014.91648.qm@web54507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <827718.34234.qm@web54505.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sorry, I misspelled anointed twice! susie --- On Fri, 4/24/09, susie getskow wrote: From: susie getskow Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, April 24, 2009, 12:02 AM Dear Joe and All, ? Some thoughts on your initial post of Two Messiahs and the rabbinic thoughts. I have recently thought that the Scriptures of Messianic? prophecy can be open ended. If you take the rabbinic thought of the contradiction between the prophecy in Daniel where Messiah will come in the clouds compared to the prophecy in Zechariah that Messiah will come lowly riding on a donkey and how this was thought to be if the Nation of Israel merited it Messiah would come quickly in the clouds and if not would come slowly riding on a donkey and tie it to Two Messiahs or one. ? ?I look at the message of Yeshua and compare his mission to Messiah ben Joseph. He states that he did not come for the well but the sick and that he came for the lost sheep of Israel. The southern Kingdom (Judah) , although having problems, were for the most part the son who stayed home, was well, and not lost. They benefited from Yeshua's deeper teachings or hidden secrets of Torah. Some were amazed at his insights of Torah. The Northern Kingdom, the lost sheep, the sick and the son who took his inheritance and left needed to be brought and welcomed back home. The restoration of the tribes to one unity in Torah and Hashem. ? The questions I have are: If the nation of Israel as a whole had repented and been restored at the time of Yeshua would he have then come as Messiah ben David? Did he make statements that the offer was there? Would the 70th week of Daniel happen right then consecutively without a gap? Peter makes a speech in Acts 3 that G-d had fulfilled what he had foretold in the prophets that his annoited one would suffer and that if repentence would happen and refreshing would occur G-d could send the annoited one back who was the appointed one that being Yeshua. That Yeshua needed to remain in Heaven until the time of ?restoration of all things. ? I realize that not all here agree with Yeshua being the Messiah and for those that do not look at this as a hypothetical. ? Susie --- On Tue, 4/21/09, kim alvarado wrote: From: kim alvarado Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:12 PM Yes, we should be praying and hoping for Elijah to come soon and in our day. ?My five year old son Skip wants to set a place for Elijah every Sabbath now since we did so at Passover. ?I personally think it is a great idea. ?We always sing Eliyahu after Havdalah. ?It's his favorite part. ?Eliyahu turns our hearts to each other each time we sing together and talk about him. Kim On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Sandra Inglis wrote: Shalom Everyone, ? I find the following statements very interesting. ? Until now we have merely proven that, according to the Torah, Mashiach can?*potentially* be a 'Resurrected Redeemer'.? However, many might find it interesting to note that several Torah sources would seem to indicate that not only *can *Mashiach die and be resurrected before he redeems the Jewish people, but that the process *will* necessarily be so. *Two Moshiachs or One?* Some may have come across Talmudic literature that speaks of the notion that our final exile will actually be completed by *two* Messianic redeemers. One is known as 'Mashiach ben Yosef' and the other-'Mashiach ben Dovid '.? Each one is charged with his own unique mission.? ? >From my studies of the Tanakh I also have come to the conclusion that there will be 2 Messiahs who will lead Israel at the time of the end. ? I have never come across the title 'Mashiach ben Yosef' in the Tanakh. I would be interested to know where this title comes from. ? I have read about 'Mashiach ben David' in the Tanakh and according to my understanding he will be the one who will lead Judah to victory over their enemies at the time of the end, and will bring peace to those in Israel. I believe this will happen before Ephraim is brought back to Israel. ? >From my studies of the Tanakh I have come to believe that the Mashiach who will be the shepherd over Ephraim and the other tribes with Ephraim, during their time in the wilderness, and the one who will lead them back to the land of Israel will be the resurrected King David. I believe he will be the one who will unite Judah and Ephraim and who will be king in Israel when Judah and Ephraim are united as one nation in Israel and YeHoWaH's kingdom is established. ? I also believe that before either of these Messiahs appear in these last days that Elijah will come to teach us truth, and to turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers. ? Malachi 4:5-6 (3:23-24) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of YeHoWaH. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the land with utter destruction. ? I believe that we should be praying for YeHoWaH to send Elijah to us as He has promised He would, as I believe that Elijah will clear up all the confusion among us. ? Shalom to all, Sandra. ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090424/99005284/attachment.html From oneillcody at yahoo.com Sun Apr 26 07:18:47 2009 From: oneillcody at yahoo.com (cody oneill) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 05:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Obama advised to suspend intelligence, military dialogue with Israel Message-ID: <437249.70261.qm@web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Obama advised to suspend intelligence, military dialogue with Israel Rantberg WASHINGTON ? A leading ally of President Barack Obama and critic of the Israel lobby in the United States has outlined a proposed U.S. campaign to pressure Israel that would suspend the intelligence dialogue between the two countries. The timing is good. Israel?s ?special relationship? with the United States has been low-hanging fruit for the unrelenting and politically victorious critics of the Bush administration?s War on Terror which targeted militants in Iraq, Iran and Syria in coordination with Israel?s security agencies. Stephen Walt, a U.S. professor of international affairs at Harvard University?s John F. Kennedy School of Government, who co-authored with John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago a controversial study on the Israeli lobby in the United States, has drafted recommendations for the Obama administration to pressure the new Israeli government of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank. Walt, regarded as influential in the U.S. diplomatic community, said the campaign should begin by administration criticism of Israel and support for United Nations resolutions that condemn the Jewish state. ?U.S. officials could even describe Israel?s occupation [of the West Bank] as ?contrary to democracy,? ?unwise,? ?cruel,? or ?unjust,?? Walt wrote in the U.S. magazine Foreign Policy. ?Altering the rhetoric would send a clear signal to the Israeli government and its citizens that their government?s opposition to a two-state solution was jeopardizing the special relationship.? Netanyahu was scheduled to fly to Washington to meet Obama in May 2009. But on April 16, the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot reported that Netanyahu was expected to cancel his visit amid an assessment that Obama would refuse to meet the Israeli prime minister. ?Within four years there will be a permanent settlement between Israel and Palestinians,? White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel was quoted by Yediot as saying. ?We don?t care who the prime minister is.? Walt?s report, titled ?Can the United States Put Pressure on Israel: A User?s Guide.? marked the latest recommendations to the Obama administration to revise U.S. policy toward Israel. In March 2009, a report by a bipartisan panel of foreign policy analysts called on the White House to pressure Israel as part of an effort to resolve the U.S. conflict with the Arab world. The book by Walt and Mearshimer, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, generated controversy but also served to validate a growing alternative foreign policy consensus for a new administration elected in large part on the basis of the repudiation of the 43rd U.S. president. But the book was also repudiated by such ideologically opposed former foreign policy officials as former Secretary of State (1982-89) George Shultz and former N.Y. Times correspondent and former President of the Council on Foreign Relations Leslie Gelb. ?Anyone who thinks that Jewish groups constitute a homogeneous ?lobby? ought to spend some time dealing with them,? Shultz wrote in the U.S. News and World Report. ?For example, my decision to open a dialogue with Yasser Arafat after he met certain conditions evoked a wide spectrum of responses from the government of Israel, its political parties, and American Jewish groups who weighed in on one side or the other. ? The United States supports Israel not because of favoritism based on political pressure or influence but because the American people, and their leaders, say that supporting Israel is politically sound and morally just. ? So, on every level, those who blame Israel and its Jewish supporters for U.S. policies they do not support are wrong. They are wrong because, to begin with, support for Israel is in our best interests. They are also wrong because Israel and its supporters have the right to try to influence U.S. policy. And they are wrong because the U.S. government is responsible for the policies it adopts, not any other state or any of the myriad lobbies and groups that battle daily?sometimes with lies ? to win America?s support.? Leslie Gelb wrote in the New York Times Book Review that the scholarship was shoddy and that the authors were biased. ?More troublingly, [Walt and Mearsheimer] don?t seriously review the facts of the two most critical issues to Israel and the lobby ? arms sales to Arab states and the question of a Palestinian state ? matters on which the American position has consistently run counter to the so-called all-powerful Jewish lobby. For several decades, administration after administration has sold Saudi Arabia and other Arab states first-rate modern weapons, against the all-out opposition of Israel and the lobby. And make no mistake, these arms have represented genuine security risks to Israel. . . And on the policy issue that has counted most to Israel and the lobby ? preventing the United States from accepting a Palestinian state prior to a negotiated deal between Israel and the Palestinians ? it?s fair to say Washington has quietly sided with the Palestinians for a long time.? Walt warned against any immediate attempt by Obama to reduce the $3 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Israel. He said this would result in a battle with the Democratic-controlled Congress. ?There?s a lot of potential leverage here, but it?s probably not the best stick to use, at least not at first,? Walt said. ?Trying to trim or cut the aid package will trigger an open and undoubtedly ugly confrontation in Congress ? where the influence of AIPAC and other hard-line groups in the Israel lobby is greatest. So that?s not where I?d start.? But Walt urged Obama to reduce U.S. strategic cooperation with Israel. He said the administration could suspend the dialogue between the Israeli and U.S. intelligence communities as well as that of the Israeli military and the Defense Department. ?Today, such a step would surely get the attention of Israel?s security establishment,? Walt said. Walt also recommended that the United States reduce its procurement of Israeli defense equipment, another step that would not require congressional approval. Israel has sold a range of armor, munitions and platforms deployed by the U.S. military in Afghanistan and Iraq. ?Obama could instruct Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to slow or decrease these purchases, which would send an unmistakable signal that it was no longer business-as-usual,? Walt said. ?Given the battering Israel?s economy has taken in the current global recession, this step would get noticed too. And most of these measures could be implemented by the Executive Branch alone, thereby outflanking die-hard defenders of the special relationship in Congress.? "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." --JFK-- From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Apr 26 10:32:16 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Patricia Robbins) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:32:16 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Obama advised to suspend intelligence, military dialogue with Israel Message-ID: Thank you for sending this, Cody. I truly want to know what we, as Americans, are supposed to do if our country turns on G-d's country? Those of us who have watched Israel and her surrounding neighbors for many years harbor no hope of their peaceful intentions toward her. The Arab intent toward Israel is, and always has been, to drive the Jews into the Sea, which, if you think about it, sounds a lot like what Pharaoh intended some 3,300 years ago as the Israelites stood at the Red Sea. Is Obama the new Pharaoh? Are he and his chief magicians arrogant enough to openly defy G-d's will for the Land, which He gave to the Hebrew people? I realize that former U.S. Presidents have more or less covertly worked to undermine Israel's well-being (in their intent to divide the Land), but they also gave the outward appearance of standing staunchly by their Middle East Ally. The proposal below however, suggests blatant aggression to my simple understanding. .......................So what do we, as G-d-Fearing Americans, do if our country turns on Israel, thereby defying the Living G-d? Are we fast-approaching the precipice of Exodus II? Will ours be the voices of Isaiah 49: 20 in the larger context of Isaiah 49: 14-21: "But Ziyyon said, The L-RD has forsaken me, and my L-RD has forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? even these may forget, yet I will not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me. Thy children make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste go away from thee. Lift up they eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, says the L-RD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on, like a bride. For thy waste and thy desolate places, and thy devastated land, SHALL NOW BE TOO NARROW FOR THE INHABITANTS, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. (Verse 20) The children that were taken away from thee shall say again in thy ears, THE PLACE IS TOO NARROW FOR ME: MAKE ROOM FOR ME THAT I MAY DWELL. Then shalt thou say in thy heart, Who has begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, a solitary, an exile, and a wanderer to and fro? and who has brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where have they been?" Most sincerely, Avigail/Pat -------------------------------------------------- From: "cody oneill" Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:18 AM To: Subject: [Dialogue] Obama advised to suspend intelligence,military dialogue with Israel > > Obama advised to suspend intelligence, military dialogue with Israel > Rantberg > > WASHINGTON - A leading ally of President Barack Obama and critic of the Israel lobby in the United States has outlined a proposed U.S. campaign to pressure Israel that would suspend the intelligence dialogue between the two countries. > > The timing is good. > > Israel's "special relationship" with the United States has been low-hanging fruit for the unrelenting and politically victorious critics of the Bush administration's War on Terror which targeted militants in Iraq, Iran and Syria in coordination with Israel's security agencies. > > Stephen Walt, a U.S. professor of international affairs at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government, who co-authored with John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago a controversial study on the Israeli lobby in the United States, has drafted recommendations for the Obama administration to pressure the new Israeli government of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank. > > Walt, regarded as influential in the U.S. diplomatic community, said the campaign should begin by administration criticism of Israel and support for United Nations resolutions that condemn the Jewish state. > > "U.S. officials could even describe Israel's occupation [of the West Bank] as 'contrary to democracy,' 'unwise,' 'cruel,' or 'unjust,'" Walt wrote in the U.S. magazine Foreign Policy. > > "Altering the rhetoric would send a clear signal to the Israeli government and its citizens that their government's opposition to a two-state solution was jeopardizing the special relationship." > > Netanyahu was scheduled to fly to Washington to meet Obama in May 2009. But on April 16, the Israeli daily Yediot Aharonot reported that Netanyahu was expected to cancel his visit amid an assessment that Obama would refuse to meet the Israeli prime minister. > > "Within four years there will be a permanent settlement between Israel and Palestinians," White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel was quoted by Yediot as saying. "We don't care who the prime minister is." > > Walt's report, titled "Can the United States Put Pressure on Israel: A User's Guide." marked the latest recommendations to the Obama administration to revise U.S. policy toward Israel. > > In March 2009, a report by a bipartisan panel of foreign policy analysts called on the White House to pressure Israel as part of an effort to resolve the U.S. conflict with the Arab world. > > The book by Walt and Mearshimer, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, generated controversy but also served to validate a growing alternative foreign policy consensus for a new administration elected in large part on the basis of the repudiation of the 43rd U.S. president. > > But the book was also repudiated by such ideologically opposed former foreign policy officials as former Secretary of State (1982-89) George Shultz and former N.Y. Times correspondent and former President of the Council on Foreign Relations Leslie Gelb. > > "Anyone who thinks that Jewish groups constitute a homogeneous 'lobby' ought to spend some time dealing with them," Shultz wrote in the U.S. News and World Report. > > "For example, my decision to open a dialogue with Yasser Arafat after he met certain conditions evoked a wide spectrum of responses from the government of Israel, its political parties, and American Jewish groups who weighed in on one side or the other. . The United States supports Israel not because of favoritism based on political pressure or influence but because the American people, and their leaders, say that supporting Israel is politically sound and morally just. . So, on every level, those who blame Israel and its Jewish supporters for U.S. policies they do not support are wrong. They are wrong because, to begin with, support for Israel is in our best interests. They are also wrong because Israel and its supporters have the right to try to influence U.S. policy. And they are wrong because the U.S. government is responsible for the policies it adopts, not any other state or any of the myriad lobbies and groups that battle daily-sometimes > with lies - to win America's support." > Leslie Gelb wrote in the New York Times Book Review that the scholarship was shoddy and that the authors were biased. "More troublingly, [Walt and Mearsheimer] don't seriously review the facts of the two most critical issues to Israel and the lobby - arms sales to Arab states and the question of a Palestinian state - matters on which the American position has consistently run counter to the so-called all-powerful Jewish lobby. For several decades, administration after administration has sold Saudi Arabia and other Arab states first-rate modern weapons, against the all-out opposition of Israel and the lobby. And make no mistake, these arms have represented genuine security risks to Israel. . . And on the policy issue that has counted most to Israel and the lobby - preventing the United States from accepting a Palestinian state prior to a negotiated deal between Israel and the Palestinians - it's fair to say Washington has quietly sided with > the Palestinians for a long time." > > Walt warned against any immediate attempt by Obama to reduce the $3 billion in annual U.S. military aid to Israel. He said this would result in a battle with the Democratic-controlled Congress. > > "There's a lot of potential leverage here, but it's probably not the best stick to use, at least not at first," Walt said. > > "Trying to trim or cut the aid package will trigger an open and undoubtedly ugly confrontation in Congress - where the influence of AIPAC and other hard-line groups in the Israel lobby is greatest. So that's not where I'd start." > > But Walt urged Obama to reduce U.S. strategic cooperation with Israel. He said the administration could suspend the dialogue between the Israeli and U.S. intelligence communities as well as that of the Israeli military and the Defense Department. > > "Today, such a step would surely get the attention of Israel's security establishment," Walt said. > > Walt also recommended that the United States reduce its procurement of Israeli defense equipment, another step that would not require congressional approval. Israel has sold a range of armor, munitions and platforms deployed by the U.S. military in Afghanistan and Iraq. > > "Obama could instruct Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to slow or decrease these purchases, which would send an unmistakable signal that it was no longer business-as-usual," Walt said. > > "Given the battering Israel's economy has taken in the current global recession, this step would get noticed too. And most of these measures could be implemented by the Executive Branch alone, thereby outflanking die-hard defenders of the special relationship in Congress." > > > > "To be courageous requires no exceptional qualifications, no magic formula, no special combination of time, place, and circumstance. It is an opportunity that sooner or later is presented to us all." > --JFK-- > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090426/19f00536/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Sun Apr 26 14:16:14 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] RE: John and Carin Message-ID: <618391.1639.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm watching and listening to your video presentation.? Beautiful!? What talent HaShem has blessed you with. ? Margie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090426/de7cb4d6/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 26 14:38:42 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 19:38:42 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] RE: John and Carin In-Reply-To: <618391.1639.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <618391.1639.qm@web58507.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469842517-1240774737-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1606829642-@bxe1195.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Thank you Margie. I'll pass it on to Carin. We wish you could have been here but I'm glad Dave could get it on line. Shalom my friend. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Margie Creech Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:16:14 To: Subject: [Dialogue] RE: John and Carin _______________________________________________ From calbfordham at gmail.com Sun Apr 26 22:50:22 2009 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:50:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! Message-ID: Wanted to say it was good to see everyone today! Hope next time we can have a longer lunch so we can chat more! Nice to talk to you, John and Dave! Think we reached everyone by email except you guys! May Hashem bless you all, Caleb and Amber Fordham -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090426/bf9c4366/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 27 01:56:33 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:56:33 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWA. Message-ID: <49F55721.5030108@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/db37f3a8/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 27 02:22:39 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:22:39 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One?] Message-ID: <49F55D3F.1090707@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/7ff844e4/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: susie getskow Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Two Messiahs or One? Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Size: 18319 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/7ff844e4/attachment.eml From chcashmore at hotmail.com Mon Apr 27 09:32:02 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 00:32:02 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Message-ID: It was wonderful to catch a little of the live broadcast. Because of the time difference I wasn't able to see much of the event, but just to see you all there and chat for a short while online was such a blessing. You are all so special. What I did miss however was James's announcement! Anyone want to fill me in before I burst!? Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/195fbaa5/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/195fbaa5/attachment.gif From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 27 11:22:53 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:22:53 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Home. Message-ID: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey all, We are home safe. Dave and Sherry should be home by now as well. We spoke with Ross a couple of hours ago and he was well on his way. We had a wonderful time, it gets better every year. Thanks to HaShem for our family and especially the new arrivals. May all of those traveling today have a safe and uneventful trip. Time for bed. Shavua Tov, Shalom v' Ahavat. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/429379f4/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 27 11:31:48 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:31:48 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <042720091631.17854.49F5DDF3000A6026000045BE22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Hey Catherine, In a nutshell, a messianic group of James' aquaintance has decided to grant UIWU the rights to an archaeological dig site at Tamar which is close to Mount Sinai. This is exciting in itself but to top it off we are beginning plans to celebrate Sukkote in the desert at that site in 2010. I'll let James fill in the rest. Laila Tov. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Catherine Cashmore" : -------------- It was wonderful to catch a little of the live broadcast. Because of the time difference I wasn't able to see much of the event, but just to see you all there and chat for a short while online was such a blessing. You are all so special. What I did miss however was James's announcement! Anyone want to fill me in before I burst!? Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/77513686/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/77513686/attachment.gif From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 27 11:40:15 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:40:15 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWA. In-Reply-To: <49F55721.5030108@westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <042720091640.8117.49F5DFEF0002ED1000001FB522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Thank you Joe, Carin did a wonderful job on the presentation, we'll talk more about all of it over the next few days I'm sure. My buddy Dave did an amazing job making the broadcast happen, he was tireless. I know he and Brian will work as hard as they can to get it posted ASAP. Laila Tov my friend. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from JOE INDOMENICO : -------------- Shalom Ross and Chaverim, Congratulations on your annual general meeting. Because of time differences and technical difficulties with the transmission I was only able to watch two lectures , one by James Tabor on the three chapters from the Tanakh and the other by Hanoch. I am hoping that all other guest speakers will be available for viewing at a later date. >From what I was able to view , all the material submitted was very stirring and inspirational. Thank you all for making this conference available to those who were not able to attend. HaShem bless you all for the hard work and dedication . I do not want to leave out Brian and Dave. John and Carin , your presentation was inspirational. I saw the end only and hope to see the full presentation when available. Hanoch, Achi, what can I say but "Riggie Didge, beauty bonza, Mate." Thank you for your hand of support for all those present from our side of the family. I know that you will wear the badge of UIWA representative in Eretz Yisrael with full honour. Words cannot describe the love that you oozed for HaShem, His land and His people on both sides of the family. Thank you for offering your future abode in Eretz Yisrael as a sanctuary for those that may visit. May your oath to Rachel Immeinu be fully realized . That prayer at Kever Rachel really touched me. You are a champion, mate. James, I only caught a glimpse of the wonderful news regarding Tamar in the Midbar. Hopefully you can expand the news for those who were not present. There was plenty of excitement in the chat room. Maybe you could expand on the ramifications of what this archaeological dig means. Sorry if I cannot comment on the other speakers but I am confident that their lectures would have been just as captivating. I guess we will hear more about their topics when you all return from the conference. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Shalom v'Ahavah JOE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/f669197f/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Apr 27 12:45:28 2009 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:45:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CB9577163C3588-DAC-C8E@webmail-mh06.sysops.aol.com> Is this the same Caleb and Amber Fordham that contacted me on facebook??? When you said you in Charlotte I wondered if you knew about UIWU.... Amy Oz -----Original Message----- From: calb fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 8:50 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! Wanted to say it was good to see everyone today!? Hope next time we can have a longer lunch so we can chat more!? Nice to talk to you, John and Dave!? Think we reached everyone by email except you guys!? May Hashem bless you all, Caleb and Amber Fordham _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/bb0c7802/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 27 13:02:34 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:02:34 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Home. In-Reply-To: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: Glad you made it back safely. I am hearing from others as well. It was truly wonderful to be with you and everyone and there is not doubt in my mind that this was by far the best conference that UIWU has had since I have been involved. It was absolutely incredible and truly groundbreaking. I fly to Israel tomorrow but before I leave tonight I hope to write up a little report on the conference for those who could not be there, as well as post some photos. If I can't manage the time in the rush to get ready to leave I will write something when I get to Jerusalem! James On Apr 27, 2009, at 12:22 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Hey all, > > We are home safe. Dave and Sherry should be home by now as well. > We spoke with Ross a couple of hours ago and he was well on his way. > > We had a wonderful time, it gets better every year. > > Thanks to HaShem for our family and especially the new arrivals. > May all of those traveling today have a safe and uneventful trip. > > Time for bed. > > Shavua Tov, Shalom v' Ahavat. > > -- > Eliron/John. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > _______________________________________________ From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Apr 27 13:07:28 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:07:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU In-Reply-To: <042720091631.17854.49F5DDF3000A6026000045BE22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <042720091631.17854.49F5DDF3000A6026000045BE22230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <3C376B48-F327-4395-8B17-8618E0890A9E@earthlink.net> I will write up a report soon. This is not entirely accurate. UIWU would not have any connection to the archaeology, but UNC Charlotte, and we would be partners with others. UIWU would be involved on other levels at Tamar. Actually we did not broadcast that part because of certain confidential matters but I will write up a report on the overall idea. Best, James On Apr 27, 2009, at 12:31 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Hey Catherine, > > In a nutshell, a messianic group of James' aquaintance has decided > to grant UIWU the rights to an archaeological dig site at Tamar > which is close to Mount Sinai. This is exciting in itself but to > top it off we are beginning plans to celebrate Sukkote in the desert > at that site in 2010. I'll let James fill in the rest. > > Laila Tov. > > -- > Eliron/John. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > > -------------- Original message from "Catherine Cashmore" >: -------------- > > It was wonderful to catch a little of the live broadcast. Because > of the time difference I wasn't able to see much of the event, but > just to see you all there and chat for a short while online was such > a blessing. You are all so special. > > What I did miss however was James's announcement! Anyone want to > fill me in before I burst!? > > Catherine > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/54be9e1f/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 13:13:52 2009 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:13:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! In-Reply-To: <8CB9577163C3588-DAC-C8E@webmail-mh06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB9577163C3588-DAC-C8E@webmail-mh06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: We don't think so............name doesn't sound familiar? What was it about? On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM, wrote: > Is this the same Caleb and Amber Fordham that contacted me on facebook??? > When you said you in Charlotte I wondered if you knew about UIWU.... > Amy Oz > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: calb fordham > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 8:50 pm > Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! > > Wanted to say it was good to see everyone today! Hope next time we can > have a longer lunch so we can chat more! Nice to talk to you, John and > Dave! Think we reached everyone by email except you guys! May Hashem bless > you all, Caleb and Amber Fordham > > _______________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------ > Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet instead > ! > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/1824d9dd/attachment.html From calbfordham at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 13:38:50 2009 From: calbfordham at gmail.com (calb fordham) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:38:50 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! In-Reply-To: References: <8CB9577163C3588-DAC-C8E@webmail-mh06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oh Amy, we just went to Facebook to see. Your last name was different. You were under Orthodox Conversion on Facebook. That's where we met. Small World. On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:13 PM, calb fordham wrote: > We don't think so............name doesn't sound familiar? What was it > about? > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM, wrote: > >> Is this the same Caleb and Amber Fordham that contacted me on >> facebook??? When you said you in Charlotte I wondered if you knew about >> UIWU.... >> Amy Oz >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: calb fordham >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 8:50 pm >> Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! >> >> Wanted to say it was good to see everyone today! Hope next time we can >> have a longer lunch so we can chat more! Nice to talk to you, John and >> Dave! Think we reached everyone by email except you guys! May Hashem bless >> you all, Caleb and Amber Fordham >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet instead >> ! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/d92737ec/attachment.html From amydomin at aol.com Mon Apr 27 14:06:35 2009 From: amydomin at aol.com (amydomin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:06:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! In-Reply-To: References: <8CB9577163C3588-DAC-C8E@webmail-mh06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CB95826B3BFD6D-A6C-3304@FWM-M18.sysops.aol.com> Too strange....it truly is a small world! :-) -----Original Message----- From: calb fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:38 am Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! Oh Amy, we just went to Facebook to see.? Your last name was different.? You were under Orthodox Conversion on Facebook.? That's where we met.? Small World. On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:13 PM, calb fordham wrote: We don't think so............name doesn't sound familiar?? What was it about? On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM, wrote: Is this the same Caleb and Amber Fordham that contacted me on facebook??? When you said you in Charlotte I wondered if you knew about UIWU.... Amy Oz -----Original Message----- From: calb fordham To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 8:50 pm Subject: [Dialogue] Didn't have everyone's email! Wanted to say it was good to see everyone today!? Hope next time we can have a longer lunch so we can chat more!? Nice to talk to you, John and Dave!? Think we reached everyone by email except you guys!? May Hashem bless you all, Caleb and Amber Fordham _______________________________________________ Can't afford a new spring wardrobe? Go shopping in your closet instead! _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/4a45f7ff/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Mon Apr 27 14:28:43 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 05:28:43 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Something in the air. Message-ID: <49F6076B.3050203@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/00840eaf/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 27 15:27:17 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 15:27:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Home. In-Reply-To: References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <9DB4F3AE2D54427AB3D8B2D1CA667BA4@bettylaptop> I just this minute arrived home and the first thing I had to do after greeting my puppies of course was to check my email! Glad you guys made it home safely. Hope Patty and Dave Tyler and their incredible band, which they so unselfishly made it possible for all of us to enjoy, made it safely as well as they had a rather long road trip in their two vans that it took to accommodate all of them and their equipment. Yes, I must agree...the conference was spectacular! Our beautiful new friends from South Carolina added a very special element as well as the newcomers from the Charlotte area and California! Of course it was great to see all the old-timers as well. Something is definitely going on behind the scenes here, and although I believe that we each in our own way have been able to contribute to it (if nothing else but having our hearts and minds open), that it is something bigger than us and is being orchestrated on High by our "Executive Producer/Executive President" who is moving among us. James, although I know we would all love to see a report plus some photos from the conference TODAY, I think we would all agree that we would rather you use your remaining short hours before you leave for Israel in doing all the things you need to do for your trip...maybe even catching a little sleep. We appreciate all you did and continue to do. Love and Shalom to you and to all, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 1:03 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Home. Glad you made it back safely. I am hearing from others as well. It was truly wonderful to be with you and everyone and there is not doubt in my mind that this was by far the best conference that UIWU has had since I have been involved. It was absolutely incredible and truly groundbreaking. I fly to Israel tomorrow but before I leave tonight I hope to write up a little report on the conference for those who could not be there, as well as post some photos. If I can't manage the time in the rush to get ready to leave I will write something when I get to Jerusalem! James On Apr 27, 2009, at 12:22 PM, carlson_john at bellsouth.net wrote: > Hey all, > > We are home safe. Dave and Sherry should be home by now as well. > We spoke with Ross a couple of hours ago and he was well on his way. > > We had a wonderful time, it gets better every year. > > Thanks to HaShem for our family and especially the new arrivals. > May all of those traveling today have a safe and uneventful trip. > > Time for bed. > > Shavua Tov, Shalom v' Ahavat. > > -- > Eliron/John. > > "Be excellent to each other!" > Bill and Ted > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From YoungBarzel at aol.com Mon Apr 27 17:07:56 2009 From: YoungBarzel at aol.com (YoungBarzel at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:07:56 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] RE: John and Carin Message-ID: Hey Margie - Thank you so very much....I so appreciate it. But whatever good I was able to do - it ALL came from HaShem...Hate to be so brief, but I just got home, and my laundry, for some reason - didn't do itself; it's still sitting here, waiting for me! :-) Take care, and thanks again for all of your thoughtfulness, generosity and compassion. Very best regards, Hanoch In a message dated 4/26/2009 12:16:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, creechmargie at yahoo.com writes: I'm watching and listening to your video presentation. Beautiful! What talent HaShem has blessed you with. Margie _______________________________________________ **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220572846x1201387511/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= Aprilfooter427NO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/c371670c/attachment.html From webhulon at msn.com Mon Apr 27 17:49:31 2009 From: webhulon at msn.com (Web Hulon) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:49:31 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shalom All, We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. For this I must say thank you. Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: true friendship. Lev 19:34 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. Todah raba, Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/b99bdaf7/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 27 18:35:30 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:35:30 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81A641A283084BE78DB03AE9A4D89E6F@bettylaptop> Shalom Web and all of you at Beth Lechem! As I said in an earlier email, the pleasure was ours. We loved having you and your "thirty three" with us. It was indeed quite an extraordinary experience; and I think that all in attendance would agree. We are linked with a common thread and I am so grateful that our paths have not only crossed but are now joined together. Thank you for your lovely note, and thank you for making the extra effort to come, to give of yourselves and spend the weekend with us. We look forward to many more gatherings in the future, and in the mean time, we have email! Baruch HaShem! Toda rabba v''b'vachasha! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Web Hulon Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:50 PM To: roots of faith Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Shalom All, We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. For thisI must say thank you. Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: true friendship. Lev 19:34 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. Todah raba, Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem _____ _____ Rediscover HotmailR: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/b037d76b/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Mon Apr 27 18:53:19 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:53:19 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <060621C7AAD74169844CF9BFAC6EA5B1@Beeblebrox> Web, your heartfelt report brought tears to my eyes - I sensed it all too, via Dave's kindness in making it available to us who could not be there. It was truly inspirational and our love and blessings goes out to all! Stephen and Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Web Hulon To: roots of faith Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:49 PM Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Shalom All, We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. For this I must say thank you. Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: true friendship. Lev 19:34 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. Todah raba, Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/5fe06999/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 27 20:19:04 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:19:04 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: <060621C7AAD74169844CF9BFAC6EA5B1@Beeblebrox> References: <060621C7AAD74169844CF9BFAC6EA5B1@Beeblebrox> Message-ID: <272B6F99EAC14218A9F0D39C3DB2C42D@bettylaptop> Stephen and Sharon, I do so wish that you two could have been with us. Web's heartfelt report says so much, but you would have to know that it went both ways! His group brought so much life and love to us that it was remarkable. Glad you were able to see a portion of the conference and sense the blessings that we all were being given from one another via HaShem's Presence in our hearts and in our midst. Dave gave Kim and me your message via the chat room. Thanks! We missed you, but it seems that you were "there" with us after all. Love and shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 6:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Web, your heartfelt report brought tears to my eyes - I sensed it all too, via Dave's kindness in making it available to us who could not be there. It was truly inspirational and our love and blessings goes out to all! Stephen and Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Web Hulon To: roots of faith Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:49 PM Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Shalom All, We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. For thisI must say thank you. Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: true friendship. Lev 19:34 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. Todah raba, Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem _____ _____ Rediscover HotmailR: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/d6a2863f/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 20:31:35 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:31:35 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: <272B6F99EAC14218A9F0D39C3DB2C42D@bettylaptop> References: <060621C7AAD74169844CF9BFAC6EA5B1@Beeblebrox> <272B6F99EAC14218A9F0D39C3DB2C42D@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <855590370904271831k6ec00980k24708d83d8c3dde5@mail.gmail.com> Shalom to all, Web - it was great to meet you and the whole group - I personally stand in awe of the community all of you have established. Or do I need to say, 'y'all' - as we do here in New York? :-) Looking forward to staying in close touch. BTW...could you please email me privately with your snailmail address? Toda! Sharon & Stephen - you guys *were* there in spirit; there was no doubt about it. Next time, we'll try to make sure we get you physically there, as well. Betty - so, I haven't seen you now, for about eleven hours, and I miss you already! Keep smiling, and always keep laughing :-) B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Betty Givin wrote: > Stephen and Sharon, > > I do so wish that you two could have been with us. Web?s heartfelt report > says so much, but you would have to know that it went both ways! His group > brought so much life and love to us that it was remarkable. Glad you were > able to see a portion of the conference and sense the blessings that we all > were being given from one another via HaShem?s Presence in our hearts and in > our midst. Dave gave Kim and me your message via the chat room. Thanks! > We missed you, but it seems that you were ?there? with us after all. > > Love and shalom, > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Stephen & Sharon > *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2009 6:53 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] UIWU conference > > > > Web, your heartfelt report brought tears to my eyes - I sensed it all too, > via Dave's kindness in making it available to us who could not be there. It > was truly inspirational and our love and blessings goes out to all! > > > > Stephen and Sharon > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Web Hulon > > *To:* roots of faith > > *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2009 7:49 PM > > *Subject:* [Dialogue] UIWU conference > > > > > > > Shalom All, > > > > We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that > was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment that we walked in, > we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. > The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, > exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. > > > > For thisI must say thank you. > > > > Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind > the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone > who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our > lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create > the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. > And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization > for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. > > > > I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but > never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of > political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. > > > > Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not > quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only > experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having > experienced something much rarer: true friendship. > > > > > > Lev 19:34 > > 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among > you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land > of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. > > > > Todah raba, > > Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/692ce64d/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Mon Apr 27 20:51:55 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:51:55 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Home Message-ID: <767644853-1240883376-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629538094-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Just a quick note to let you all know that Ty and I made it home. I will catch up on all the email later. Shalom! And thanks for the wonderful fellowship! Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Apr 27 20:57:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:57:07 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Home In-Reply-To: <767644853-1240883376-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629538094-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <767644853-1240883376-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629538094-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <855590370904271857u490cf536v97f625ae73724327@mail.gmail.com> Hey bro - I hope you let Ty drive! But welcome home, in any case? The stupid question of the day - WHERE are the tapings posted?? I neglected to ask... Toda! Hanoch On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Ross Nichols wrote: > Just a quick note to let you all know that Ty and I made it home. I will > catch up on all the email later. Shalom! And thanks for the wonderful > fellowship! Ross > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T > _______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/2f8e5e6b/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Mon Apr 27 22:03:58 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:03:58 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: <855590370904271831k6ec00980k24708d83d8c3dde5@mail.gmail.com> References: <060621C7AAD74169844CF9BFAC6EA5B1@Beeblebrox><272B6F99EAC14218A9F0D39C3DB2C42D@bettylaptop> <855590370904271831k6ec00980k24708d83d8c3dde5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <357F93E284AA41CB878E05A45E769478@bettylaptop> Miss you too, Hanoch! I will definitely keep smiling.and laughing too :-)! In the midst of everything, there is always room for a smile! We are richly blessed, and besides, it beats the alternative, right?! Enjoyed talking with you at the airport. Glad you arrived safely home. I will have to get you the DeBartolo's address in Modiin! Barbara is a great cook and she keeps a kosher home, so you will have to visit her and Tony. I will invite you. She won't mind. They are moving to their new apartment tomorrow, and hoping to have their furniture very soon, so they will be quite settled by the time you arrive In September. Besides you may need a break to get out of your house for a while when all of us pile in on you for a visit :-)! B'Ahavat HaMoledet, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:32 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Shalom to all, Web - it was great to meet you and the whole group - I personally stand in awe of the community all of you have established. Or do I need to say, 'y'all' - as we do here in New York? :-) Looking forward to staying in close touch. BTW...could you please email me privately with your snailmail address? Toda! Sharon & Stephen - you guys were there in spirit; there was no doubt about it. Next time, we'll try to make sure we get you physically there, as well. Betty - so, I haven't seen you now, for about eleven hours, and I miss you already! Keep smiling, and always keep laughing :-) B'Ahavat HaMoledet (With Love of the Homeland), Hanoch On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:19 PM, Betty Givin wrote: Stephen and Sharon, I do so wish that you two could have been with us. Web's heartfelt report says so much, but you would have to know that it went both ways! His group brought so much life and love to us that it was remarkable. Glad you were able to see a portion of the conference and sense the blessings that we all were being given from one another via HaShem's Presence in our hearts and in our midst. Dave gave Kim and me your message via the chat room. Thanks! We missed you, but it seems that you were "there" with us after all. Love and shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Stephen & Sharon Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 6:53 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Web, your heartfelt report brought tears to my eyes - I sensed it all too, via Dave's kindness in making it available to us who could not be there. It was truly inspirational and our love and blessings goes out to all! Stephen and Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Web Hulon To: roots of faith Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 7:49 PM Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Shalom All, We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. >From the moment that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed hospitality of our father Abraham. For thisI must say thank you. Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, because you all help to create the welcoming environment that encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years for building the foundation that made all of this possible. I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great blessing. Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: true friendship. Lev 19:34 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. Todah raba, Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem _____ _____ Rediscover HotmailR: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. _____ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090427/1fc17264/attachment.html From sandrainglis at bigpond.com Tue Apr 28 04:41:22 2009 From: sandrainglis at bigpond.com (Sandra Inglis) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:41:22 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference Message-ID: <53333827AF914B34AC5E06C450807ADC@SPLITPIN> Shalom all, Sounds like you all had a wonderful time. I am glad that you all enjoyed the conference. I am sorry I couldn't be there or online. I had a house full of children which I had to care for and did not get a chance to go online. Glad you all made it home safely. Sandra. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/ab1b2b01/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 04:47:10 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:47:10 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Yom HaZikaron - Day of Remembrance Message-ID: <855590370904280247r29f33df5o6bbff941648e18e0@mail.gmail.com> *11:00 AM Siren to Signal Tuesday Memorial Day Events* Reported: 10:40 AM - Apr/28/09 (IsraelNN.com) On Tuesday morning at 11 AM, a two-minute siren will initiate official memorial ceremonies at *43 military cemeteries* throughout the country. There will also be ceremonies for volunteers from overseas who fought and died during the War of Independence, and for victims of terrorism. A total of *22,570* men and women have been killed defending the land of Israel since 1860, the year that the first Jewish settlers left the secure walls of Jerusalem to build new Jewish neighborhoods. Ten of those have been killed since the last Memorial Day. During that time, 17 civilians have been victims of terrorist attacks. A total of *1,723* have been murdered by terrorists since the establishment of the modern Jewish State in 1948. May HaShem avenge their blood.... *Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/bbe53b3f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Apr 28 06:00:17 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 07:00:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Web and all those of your community--Shalom! Words can not express how profoundly grateful we all were to link up with you at the UIWU conference this weekend. I think every aspect of our experiences together were wholly positive. The kind of harmonious spirit we all experienced is rare among such a diverse gathering of peoples, but surely comes from our connection to HaShem and the cause of Abrahamic Faith. I know that this association will grow and develop into something truly enduring. I am already looking forward to Sukkoth in St Francisville with all of you. Let's make it happen! I don't have time to write much as I am rushing about to leave for Israel in a few hours but will write more about the conference, post some photos, etc. very soon--but from the Land! Maybe that is more appropriate anyway! Again, Shalom Shalom, and Chazak Chazak! With warm and great affection, James On Apr 27, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Web Hulon wrote: > > > Shalom All, > > We at Beth Lechem are all home now, but we continue to bask in the > joy that was granted us at the UIWU conference. From the moment > that we walked in, we were treated as family by folks that had never > laid eyes on us before. The hospitality extended toward us by > everyone present was, in my opinion, exemplary of the famed > hospitality of our father Abraham. > > For this I must say thank you. > > Thank you to the teachers, and the musicians, and the folks working > behind the scenes to make this wonderful weekend possible. Thank > you to everyone who attended for your smiles and your hugs and your > sincere interest in our lives. Thank you to everyone on this list, > because you all help to create the welcoming environment that > encouraged us to attend the UIWU Conference. And thank you to the > folks that established and supported this organization for 65 years > for building the foundation that made all of this possible. > > I have attended and been a part of many conferences over the years, > but never have I experienced a conference with such acceptance and > lack of political agenda. It was and continues to be a great > blessing. > > Thirty-three people, our entire community, came to this conference > not quite sure what to expect. We returned from this conference > having not only experienced great scholarly dialogue and fun > fellowship, we returned having experienced something much rarer: > true friendship. > > > Lev 19:34 > 34 `The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one > born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were > strangers in the land of Mizrayim: I am YHWH your Elohim. > > Todah raba, > Web Hulon on behalf of Congregation Beth Lechem > > > Rediscover Hotmail?: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check > it out. _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/9a68229e/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Apr 28 07:06:36 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:06:36 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Biblical Tamar Message-ID: At end of the United Israel conference here in Charlotte this weekend I spoke about Biblical Tamar, the southernmost city of the Land of Israel, dating back to the time of Solomon (1 Kings 9:16-18; Ezk 47:18-20) as well as Ovot, the 3rd station of Israel's camping in the days of Moses, once they left Sinai (Num 21:10-11). I put it in the wider context of the Aravah/desert and how the region is mentioned in Isaiah 35:1, Isaiah 40, etc. in connection with the "Redemption" and restoration of all Israel. I also talked about Bozrah, Petra, and Mt Sinai in Paran (Hosea 5:15; Jeremiah 9:2; Isa 63:1). I then went to relate my own experiences at Tamar going back to 1991 when I first visited the late Simcha Perlmutter down there, what he meant to me over the years through subsequent visits, and the connection I felt to the area, as well as the incredible archaeological site Tamar has become. One thing I found amazing was how many in the audience had corresponded or visited Simcha Perlmutter over the years! The site of Tamar is in the hands of the Israel Parks Authority, but the "settlement" of 53 acres Biblical Tamar Park, is leased by Blossoming Rose on a long-term basis (see http://www.blossomingrose.org/) , HQ in Michigan and headed by DeWayne Coxen. For the past year, and particularly over the past few months, DeWayne and I have carried on a very mutually fruitful correspondence as to ways in which we might co- operate in the future, both from the archaeological/UNC Charlotte side of things, as well as the UIWU side of things, in helping to build and develop the site, as well as offer people what I call a "desert experience." DeWayne has read my book Restoring Abrahamic Faith, so he knows where I am coming from, and I understand his own background and work as a Christian with Christians who are drawn to God, Torah, Israel, and the Land. We see lots of areas of potential co-operation, including a possible Sukkoth gathering, perhaps in 2010 (as I think 2009 is too soon to properly organize), he and I doing some joint touring and teaching, and other Tamar related activities, both archaeological and spiritual. That in a nutshell is what I covered and I believe as more unfolds it will be of genuine interest to many of those reading this. I fly to Israel today so I must rush off... Shalom and Kol Tov, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/ec00cc6f/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Tue Apr 28 08:12:48 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:12:48 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Home References: <767644853-1240883376-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1629538094-@bxe1298.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <855590370904271857u490cf536v97f625ae73724327@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hanoch.....funny you should ask, Upon arriving home, I started the process of making the tapes availability to view and download. At this moment one can view your talk by going to this link.... www.mogulus.com/rootsoffaith This is an unedited version and it may buffer (cut on and off per your internet connection. also you could "get there from the SWW's net work by clicking on the web cast tab and choosing 'live video'. Brian and I will be working on editing your session and making it available for download along with audio versions to post. You were the last to speak and now you will be the first to be posted..... dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Home Hey bro - I hope you let Ty drive! But welcome home, in any case? The stupid question of the day - WHERE are the tapings posted?? I neglected to ask... Toda! Hanoch On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:51 PM, Ross Nichols wrote: Just a quick note to let you all know that Ty and I made it home. I will catch up on all the email later. Shalom! And thanks for the wonderful fellowship! Ross Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/3b75d159/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 09:13:56 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:13:56 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Something in the air Message-ID: You would think with all this technology now days, that someone would have created laundry that launders itself! *heads towards mangle* Was truly wonderful to see some of you during the live web broadcast. I feel so blessed to have experienced a share of HaShem's grace with my brothers and sisters, my spiritual family. Travel safely James, and do as Betty says and get some rest. I will pray for you. Great to hear everyone has arrived safely home after the weekend's events. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090429/9b9240fa/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090429/9b9240fa/attachment.gif From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 09:22:25 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:22:25 +1000 Subject: Fw: [Dialogue] Something in the air Message-ID: You would think with all this technology now days, that someone would have created laundry that launders itself! *heads towards mangle* Was truly wonderful to see some of you during the live web broadcast. I feel so blessed to have experienced a share of HaShem's grace with my brothers and sisters, my spiritual family. Travel safely James, and do as Betty says and get some rest. I will pray for you. Great to hear everyone has arrived safely home after the weekend's events. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090429/cc304895/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Tue Apr 28 09:35:39 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:35:39 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Yom HaZikaron - Day of Remembrance / Yom ha'Atzmaut- Day of Independence. Message-ID: <49F7143B.2000609@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090429/b10d6ed0/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Apr 28 09:36:29 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:36:29 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU Message-ID: Sounds wonderfully exciting. Isn't this the area where they have recently discovered natural gas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090429/6188b60d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Apr 28 10:19:40 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:19:40 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] UIWU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not sure but it is just across from Petra and I think Jordan and Israel plan to put a major crossing point there. James On Apr 28, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote: > Sounds wonderfully exciting. Isn't this the area where they have > recently discovered natural gas? > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/629baa6e/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 28 11:22:32 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:22:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Home In-Reply-To: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <030a01c9c81d$8a126d40$9e3747c0$@com> Shalom All! Dave and I and the kids are back and in ?recovery?. It was truly a great blessing to see all of you! Love, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/aa8f3b4e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 28 11:31:09 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:31:09 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Home In-Reply-To: <030a01c9c81d$8a126d40$9e3747c0$@com> References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <030a01c9c81d$8a126d40$9e3747c0$@com> Message-ID: <042820091631.19890.49F72F4D0006E28500004DB222230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Most Excellent! It was great to share the weekend with ya'll. Carin and I hope to see y'all somewhere soon. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- Shalom All! Dave and I and the kids are back and in ?recovery?. It was truly a great blessing to see all of you! Love, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/07b76493/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Tue Apr 28 11:40:27 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:40:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Home In-Reply-To: <042820091631.19890.49F72F4D0006E28500004DB222230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <030a01c9c81d$8a126d40$9e3747c0$@com> <042820091631.19890.49F72F4D0006E28500004DB222230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Message-ID: <033301c9c820$0b35e580$21a1b080$@com> Hey John! Well you and Carin and all are welcome to come here anytime. BTW ? as we were tearing down after the show, Brian our bass player said, ?All of the songs that we played and the one I can?t get out of my head is Foundation?!! Love, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Home Most Excellent! It was great to share the weekend with ya'll. Carin and I hope to see y'all somewhere soon. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- Shalom All! Dave and I and the kids are back and in ?recovery?. It was truly a great blessing to see all of you! Love, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/2760276e/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 28 12:37:34 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:37:34 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Home In-Reply-To: <033301c9c820$0b35e580$21a1b080$@com> References: <042720091622.24469.49F5DBDD0008702C00005F9522230682229B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <030a01c9c81d$8a126d40$9e3747c0$@com><042820091631.19890.49F72F4D0006E28500004DB222230703729B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> <033301c9c820$0b35e580$21a1b080$@com> Message-ID: <042820091737.22987.49F73EDE00047ED9000059CB22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Cool! Tell the guys that they can play it wherever and whenever they want. ;-{)} -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- Hey John! Well you and Carin and all are welcome to come here anytime. BTW ? as we were tearing down after the show, Brian our bass player said, ?All of the songs that we played and the one I can?t get out of my head is Foundation?!! Love, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of carlson_john at bellsouth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 12:31 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Home Most Excellent! It was great to share the weekend with ya'll. Carin and I hope to see y'all somewhere soon. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- Original message from "Patty " : -------------- Shalom All! Dave and I and the kids are back and in ?recovery?. It was truly a great blessing to see all of you! Love, Patty -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/3f755484/attachment.html From carlson_john at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 28 12:59:30 2009 From: carlson_john at bellsouth.net (carlson_john at bellsouth.net) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:59:30 +0000 Subject: [Dialogue] Curiouser and Curiouser! Message-ID: <042820091759.14921.49F7440200020A7200003A4922230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF02080106A102019C049D0E0C@att.net> Israel's Arab cheerleaders By CAROLINE GLICK It is a strange situation when Egypt and Jordan feel it necessary to defend Israel against American criticism. But this is the situation in which we find ourselves today. Last Friday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told the House of Representatives Appropriations Committee that Arab support for Israel's bid to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons is contingent on its agreeing to support the rapid establishment of a Palestinian state. In her words, "For Israel to get the kind of strong support it's looking for vis-a-vis Iran, it can't stay on the sidelines with respect to the Palestinians and the peace efforts." As far as Clinton is concerned, the two, "go hand-in-hand." But just around the time that Clinton was making this statement, Jordan's King Abdullah II was telling The Washington Post that he is satisfied with the Netanyahu government's position on the Palestinians. In his words, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has "sent a message that he's committed to peace with the Arabs. All the words I heard were the right words." As for Egypt, in spite of the media's hysteria that Egypt won't deal with the Netanyahu government and the Obama administration's warning that Israel can only expect Egypt to support its position that Iran must be denied nuclear weapons if it gives Jerusalem to the PLO, last week's visit by Egypt's intelligence chief Omar Suleiman clearly demonstrated that Egypt wishes to work with the government on a whole host of issues. Coming as it did on the heels of Egypt's revelation that Iranian-controlled Hizbullah agents were arrested for planning strategic attacks against it, Suleiman's visit was a clear sign that Egypt is as keen as Israel to neutralize Iranian power in the region by preventing it from acquiring nuclear weapons. And Egypt and Jordan are not alone in supporting Israel's commitment to preventing Iran from becoming a nuclear power. American and other Western sources who have visited the Persian Gulf in recent months report that leaders of the Gulf states from Bahrain - which Iran refers to as its 14th province - to Saudi Arabia to Kuwait and, of course, to Iraq - are praying for Israel to strike Iran's nuclear facilities and only complain that it has waited so long to attack them. As one American who recently met with Persian Gulf leaders explained last week, "As far as the Gulf leaders are concerned, Israel cannot attack Iran fast enough. They understand what the stakes are." UNFORTUNATELY, THE nature of those stakes has clearly eluded the Obama administration. As the Arabs line up behind Israel, the Obama administration is operating under the delusion that the Iranians will be convinced to give up their nuclear program if Israel destroys its communities in Judea and Samaria. According to reports published last week in Yediot Aharonot and Haaretz, President Barack Obama's in-house post-Zionist, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel, told an American Jewish leader that for Israel to receive the administration's support for preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, it must not only say that it supports establishing a Palestinian state in Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and Gaza, it must begin expelling its citizens from their homes and communities in Judea and Samaria to prove its good faith. With just months separating Iran from either joining the nuclear club or from being barred entry to the clubhouse, the Obama administration's apparent obsession with Judea and Samaria tells us that unlike Israel and the Arab world, its Middle East policies are based on a willful denial of reality. The cold hard facts are that the Middle East will be a very different place if Iran becomes a nuclear power. Today American policy-makers and other opponents of using military force to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons compare the current situation to what the region could look like in the aftermath of an Israeli campaign against Iran's nuclear installations. They warn that Hizbullah and Hamas may launch massive retaliatory missile attacks against Israel, Egypt, Jordan and other states, and that US military personnel and installations in the region will likely be similarly attacked by Iranian and Syrian proxies. Indeed, proponents and opponents of an Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear installations alike warn that Iran's deployment of terror proxies from Beirut to Bolivia, from Managua to Marseilles, and from Gaza to Giza means that things could get very ugly worldwide in the aftermath of an Israeli attack. But all of that ugliness, all of that instability and death will look like a walk in the park compared to how the region - and indeed how the world - will look if Iran becomes a nuclear power. This is something that the Arabs understand. And this is why they support and pray for an Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear installations. IF IRAN acquires nuclear weapons, the Obama administration can throw its hopes for Middle East peace out the window. Today, even without nuclear weapons, Iran is the major force behind the continued Palestinian war against Israel. Iran exerts complete control over Hamas and Islamic Jihad and partial control over Fatah. In and of itself, Iran's current control over Palestinian terror groups suffices to expose the Obama administration's plan to force Israel to destroy its communities in Judea and Samaria as misguided in the extreme. With Iran calling the shots for the Palestinians, it is clear that any land Israel vacates will fall under Iranian control. That is, every concession the US forces Israel to make will redound directly to Iran's benefit. This is why Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's claim that it will be impossible to resolve the conflict with the Palestinians without first neutralizing Iran rings so true. If Iran acquires nuclear weapons, the situation will become even more destructive. A nuclear-armed Iran means that any chance of marginalizing these Iranian-controlled forces in Palestinian society will disappear. For Israel, the best case scenario in the age of a nuclear-armed mullocracy would involve continuous war with Iranian proxies - sort of expanded versions of the Second Lebanon War and Operation Cast Lead - in which it has little option for victory because the terror armies would fight under Iran's nuclear umbrella. -- Eliron/John. "Be excellent to each other!" Bill and Ted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/b98f7218/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:09:28 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:09:28 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Videos for Israel's Yom HaZikaron - Memorial Day Message-ID: <855590370904281309u70c83638gbd83a5142696af35@mail.gmail.com> Please take a few minutes and look at (at least) some of these videos. These young Maccabees of our time, sacrificed *everything *while protecting OUR Eretz Yisrael. HaShem Yikom Damam - May G-d avenge their blood. * Hanoch* *Memorial Day Videos * *Powerful stories of modern day Jewish heroes* * *** Memorial Day: Jumped on Grenade to Save Comrades Major Roi Klein, who died while defending his soldiers in Lebanon, is remembered in a segment from Tuesday Night Live. Memorial Day: Noam Apter -- He Died Saving his Schoolmates As terrorists stormed a yeshiva in 2002, student Noam Apter gave his life to block their path and save his fellow students. Memorial Day: From Aliyah to Ultimate Sacrifice Michael Levin made aliya alone as a young man and joined an elite paratrooper unit. In August 2006, he fell in battle in Lebanon. Memorial Day: Love of the Land Young husband and father Ido Zoldan was murdered while driving home. His family recalls his love of Torah and Israel. Memorial Day: Sherry Mandell Remembers her Son Sherry Mandell, who lost a son to a vicious terrorist attack, explains the message of Memorial Day and speaks about coping with the pain of loss. Memorial Day: Park Commemorates Young Friends Tom and Tomer hill in southern Israel commemorates 73 soldiers who died in the 1997 Helicopter Disaster. Memorial Day: Rebbetzin Jungreis on Jewish Suffering Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis speaks about Jewish suffering and courage, as they relate to the soldiers killed and wounded fighting for Israel. * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/6538640d/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:17:20 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:17:20 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 'Earthquakes & War with Iran and its proxies?' Message-ID: <855590370904281317v9411eaamb2d221814cf34b82@mail.gmail.com> Blog Nisan 25, 5769, 4/19/2009 Earth Quakes & War with Iran and Its Proxies?by Tamar Yonah Israelnationalnews.com Why is Iran digging 320,000 graves? One thing leads to another. It's after Shabbat, and I am searching the news about the earth quakes that were felt yesterday (Friday) in Israel. Israeli residents of the north said that their homes were shaking, things were falling off their shelves, and their beds were moving. It was generally scary for a country that doesn't experience many earth quakes. I look for more information and find that the earth quake's epicenter hit the eastern Mediterranean sea, about 12 miles east of Tyre, Lebanon, but was felt in Northern Israel at a 4.2 magnitude. This took place just after 2pm Friday afternoon. Another earth quake was felt Friday evening again in northern Israel registering at a 3.5 magnitude. Thank G-d, no injuries were reported. All in all, The Geophysical Institute of Israel (GII) confirmed that at least TEN earth quakes took place yesterday in southern Lebanon. *Prepare for Mass Casualties* Now, what makes this news story even more interesting - and disturbing - is that under a year ago, Israel's northern hospitals were put on high alert and were told to *expect a coming major earth quake soon, with the expectation of possible mass civilian casualties. Israel's Health Ministry sent out a notice to Israel's northern hospitals to prepare and be ready for possible mass casualties of Israel's northern residents. (* This report is from about 9 months ago when Israel was also hoping to get permission from America to attackIran. At that time, it was reported that it was not a matter of IF, but WHEN.) *Iran Digging 320,000 Graves* I then read on Iran's Press TV news website, that Iran is digging over a quarter of a million graves on its soil, ostensibly, because Iran is expecting a military invasion and an attack on it's nuclear facilities. The report came out almost the same day that Israel sent its letter to hospitals in the north to be ready for mass casualties. It states: "A senior Iranian commander says the country is digging some '320,000 graves' in its bordering provinces for future slain invaders. Brigadier General Mir-Faisal Baqerzadeh, the Head of the Foundation for the Remembrance of the Holy Defense, said Sunday that the decision had been approved by Iran's Armed Forces Headquarters. "We will dig 15,000 to 20,000 graves in each of the border provinces," he said. "We do not wish the families of enemy soldiers to experience what Americans had to go through in the aftermath of the Vietnam War," added Brig. Gen. Baqerzadeh, who is also the head of the search committee for missing soldiers. The commander said the preemptive measures would decrease the time slain soldiers would be 'missing in action'." *Iranian Nuclear Production/Installments -* The full map is located here . All in all, the number of graves they are digging comes to approx. 320,000 graves ? for their enemies, they say. Now, the questions that need to be asked are: *1) Why is Israel preparing for mass casualties in northern Israel?* a) It could be exactly what we are reading, that we are expecting a major earth quake which could be very serious. Or? b) Israel may be planning on attacking the Iranian nuclear facilities in the near future and is preparing for a massive missile attack in response, from Iran's proxy in the north, the Hezbollah and possible other terror groups. *2) Why is Iran digging 320,000 graves?* a) It could be that they are expecting 320,000 enemy soldiers to come in and invade Iran and attempt to attack it's nuclear facilities. They plan to kill all of these soldiers, and then bury them ? out of humanitarian concern - as they claim. Or? b) It could be that they are really expecting some type of aerial attack, whether by fighter jets or by long range missiles onto their nuclear facilities, and they really are expecting to bury their OWN soon to be dead Iranian people who are working and residing in the area. I would imagine that there would be a lot of massive damage and dirty radiation leaks after an attack on a nuclear site, and Iran would need to bury, not burn, any bodies that lingered there as soon as they would be able to approach the area. Now again, being careful about keeping speculation, speculation, as I have no personal proof, I believe a connection between these two news stories would be a possibility to consider. Let's try to examine why Iran, a Moslem regime which sponsors terrorism and courts fascist leaders like Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, is so concerned about the humanitarian needs of its enemies. Why would they be so 'thoughtful' to worry about enemy infidels and bother to dig 320, 000 graves for those they hate. They could easily burn their bodies or just make much quicker mass grave sites. Let's also think WHO would be sending in so many enemy soldiers to invade Iran? Not Israel. Our standing army is less than 200,000 men and women and I don't think that the US has that many troops in Iraq to invade Iran and still retain control in Iraq. So unless Russia is planning on marching in and attacking Iran's nuclear facilities, which seems unlikely since Russia and Iran do business together and the two signed an agreementfor Moscow to supply fuel to Iran's nuclear reactor, I doubt very much there will be ANY military invasion on Iran. One more point, how did Iran even come to the number of 320,000? There aren't enough 'enemy' troops from the USA or Israel to support such a number, yet this is the number they estimate and get approval for? America does not have 320,000 troops in Iraq to invade Iran. Israel does not have enough troops nor the ability to march any troops through hostile Jew-hating countries like Jordan, Syria, Turkey or Iraq to get to Iran. So if this is the case, and Iran really expects an aerial attack, then reason tells us that these graves will be for the people working and living in these nuclear facility communities. Only time will tell. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/a827c0d0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:21:02 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:21:02 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Blood and (Re)birth Message-ID: <855590370904281321j765ebae3nbd76be3adc709338@mail.gmail.com> Blood and (Re)birth Nisan 30, 5769, 24 April 09 02:02 by by Rabbi S. Weiss (IsraelNN.com) The transition from Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) and Yom HaZikaron (Memorial Day) to Yom Ha'Atzmaut (Independence Day) is among the most challenging exercises a Jew is required to perform. You almost have to be an expert race-car driver to be able to so rapidly switch emotional gears during these intense ten days. How do we do it? I suggest our *sedra*, and the *sefirah* we are now counting, offer us a valuable insight. *Tazria* opens by discussing the state of impurity known as *nidah*. A woman must (Biblically) count seven days from the end of menstruation in order to again reach a state of *taharah*, purity. Menstruation indicates the inability to bear new life (thus the status of *tumah*), while its conclusion represents the chance to give birth once more (*taharah*). The counting of seven, of course, rings a bell for us. For we are all now counting another seven - seven weeks from Pesach to Shavuot What is the connection between these two sevens? I suggest the Torah is telling us that life is a progression from tragedy to triumph, from *tumah* to *taharah*, from despair to deliverance. It is only by enduring the blood that we ultimately achieve the birth. That is the history of *Am Yisrael* and the pattern which *HaShem* imposed upon the universe. And so, we could not climb the mountain of Sinai had we not first gone through the bitter Egyptian experience and all the travail which it engendered. We emerged as a new creation, but we had to traverse a harsh birth canal to get there. What seems difficult to understand is that the Torah also prescribes a state of *nidah* for a woman who has just given birth. This seems strange; should not this moment be one of pure joy, a celebration of absolute purity? The answer lies in the whole origin of childbirth as we know it. The *Zohar*tells us that Chava, in *Gan Eden*, could conceive and deliver a child in the same day, with no pain at all. But then sin entered the world, Adam and Chava became mere mortals, and the trauma of labor and delivery became the norm. And so, even having a child is tempered by the knowledge that this same pattern of pain and pleasure will continue. But the good news is that it won't always be that way. In the end of days, we will restore the pristine perfection of *Gan Eden*, and childbirth - as well as life itself - will come with no suffering attached. For those of us who have paid the supreme pricefor Israel - and so the celebration of Yom Ha'atzmaut cannot be fully realized - we await the coming of *Moshiach* and *techiyat hametim*, when all the souls will be reunited and the tears will finally disappear. May it happen soon, *b'sha'ah tovah*. www.IsraelNationalNews.com ? Copyright IsraelNationalNews.com Subscribe to the free Daily Israel Report - sub.israelnn.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/cc912126/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:37:34 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:37:34 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Zikaron Message-ID: <855590370904281337h3a23f0bfj9dcd21c98f0efc48@mail.gmail.com> The grave stone pictured below is one of almost 23,000 military graves in Israel...may you never have to see another one being put up... * Hanoch* ZIKARON by Yishai Fleisher Iyar 4, 5769, 4/28/2009 In March of 1995 my friends and I were drafted to the Israeli army. We had passed some grueling tests and were accepted to the Paratrooper brigades, the *Tzanchanim*. The image of the red berets liberating the Western Wall was fused into our psyches like it was in so many young Israeli children's, and more than anything we wanted to serve our country honorably and to the best of our abilities. Six painful months of basic training were ahead of us. In this period of time our minds and bodies were converted from civilian use and become the property of the IDF. We learned to push the envelope of our individual human capacity, and to harness the great strength inherent in an indivisible platoon. All this time we kept our sights to the final day of basic training in which we would hike 86 kilometers, in utter silence with full infantry gear, up to Givat Ha-Tachmoshet, Ammunition Hill in Jerusalem, where many Tzanchanim had perished in 1967, and where we would receive our very own red berets and be inducted into the ranks of the paratroopers. However, one fine day in May, barely three months after we began basic training, the pit bull-like sergeant major came into our barracks with a large box. We had no clue what its contents were. The sergeant major proceeded to open the box, and much to our surprise, unveiled red berets for each one of us in the platoon. "You don't deserve to be paratroopers yet,'' he told us. "But tomorrow you will leave the base and think of yourselves as full-fledged Tzanchanim for one day. You will not get to keep these,'' he added, "but wear them with pride and respect.'' The next day was *Yom HaZikaron*, Memorial Day, and the whole of the paratrooper brigade, thousands of men, would be released for one day to attend one of the many commemorations of fallen soldiers that took place in the cemeteries of this tiny nation. Each one of us was given precise directions to the cemetery and a plot number was also given to us. We were told that the plot number corresponded to a grave of a fallen paratrooper. We were ordered to stand next to that grave and next to the family of a young man who was once just like ourselves, wearing our red beret as he once did, and in a sense, to represent his memory and soul. That next day, I had luck hitchhiking, the preferred mode of travel when in uniform. Hitchhiking was by no means a precise science, and though I had tweaked my "I'm a helpless soldier" stance to perfection, some days were better than others. I reached the gates of the cemetery about an hour early and the place was quiet and serene. I wandered in. The large space echoed silence and only the birds chirped in the large trees. Nature had overtaken this resting place and many of the walls were covered in ivy. I tried listening to the graves and heard no cries of pain, no last words, and no fear of death. The dead, it seemed to me, had made peace with their fate, they were no longer bitter at having fallen so young. Alone amongst my dead I stood, a bit in a daydream, under the sun. Soon, people began to arrive and I straightened my stance and made sure my beret was on right. I was nervous at meeting the family I was assigned to. Who would they be? How would they react to me? Will they cry next to me? Will they ask me who I am? Most of all my soul wondered: What is it like for a parent to stand on the grave of his child? How would my parents feel if I were that child? How would I feel, if it were my child? I thought about my own mother and her reservations about my army service. Soon after, I spotted a family of three: father, mother and son, heading in my general direction. It was my family. They greeted me kindly, and indeed, the father asked me who I was and where did I serve. The mother, who had been through this before, brought out some fruits and water to nourish the soldier with the red beret standing in front of her, and though she looked at me, I could see that her mind was far away, and that I was a painful reminder of her longing to nourish her own child. As the somber ceremony began, once again I eyed my surroundings, and saw families standing by graves all around me. Interspersed amongst them were other Red Berets, for only the paratrooper brigade had this custom of representing their fallen. At this moment more than any other, tears welled up inside, for I realized that this was more than a personal tragedy of one fallen Tzanchan, but rather the day that all of Israel remembered the men who had laid down their lives in the attempt to build a home for the Jewish people. The red berets standing at the cemetery that day represented to me that successful effort of rebuilding a home we had lost so long ago. The dead came back to life in the form of a new generation of young soldiers who stood at the graves on the land which God had promised them. While the living cried, the dead now rested eternally in the bosom of *Eretz Yisroel*, the Land of Israel. My adopted family was now in tears and the horns blared and reverberated through the cemetery signifying the moment of silence and memory that had finally come. Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, like a primordial hum or a sound of the shofar the Jewish soul could not fight back tears. In that one moment I though of gratitude: I am so thankful to you, fallen Tzanchan, fallen Jew, fallen brother. Without you my parents would have had no place to run to from the choke hold of the Soviet Union, without you Jews of the world would never have shelter, and without you, I would not stand here today, wearing this uniform with a red beret that did not yet belong to me. Shimon Peres finished speaking and the ceremony was over. The family thanked me for coming. They looked down onto their son's grave and God only knows what went through their minds. They walked away slowly, the mother leaning on her husband, noticeably weaker than when she entered. I would probably never see them again. Shalom EEMA, shalom ABBA, I said to myself. Seven months after this story took place, Tom Kareen, one of the company's commanders, was killed in a Hizbollah ambush. Also in that altercation, Yoav Be'er, a friend of mine in platoon two, lost an eye and a leg. Tom Kareen and I did not get along too well throughout most of the service. However, a few weeks before his death, as I stood at an overlook guard post I saw him from a distance leading other soldiers while he carried a communications radio on his back. He saw me too, and from that distance he waved broadly with a big smile as to say "shalom friend, there is peace between us.'' That wave struck me as being uncharacteristic of army behavior and it made me feel human again if only for a bit. When he was killed, the battalion commander came to speak with us. He shared our sadness but told us not to cry at the funeral. He said: "The enemy should not see you weeping like babies in front of the cameras, we are an army, and death is a part of it.'' I knew that he was right. Tom was buried in the soil of his home kibbutz, Ginosar, on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, the Kinneret. It was the most beautiful cemetery I had ever seen. It was hard to fight back tears at the funeral as per our order, especially when Tom's fiancee eulogized her dead man with such warm words and tears. Today is the day of memory and the time for those tears. *Yishai* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/c88d8695/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Tue Apr 28 15:42:19 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:42:19 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] today... Message-ID: <855590370904281342t3f6cdc47i64cd64cc43789a80@mail.gmail.com> A very sad day...... * Hanoch* * *(from Arutz-7) Memorial Day begins Monday evening at 8 PM, with a nation-wide siren signaling a minute of silence and remembrance. On Tuesday morning at 11 AM, another siren will sound, this one for two minutes, followed by official memorial ceremonies at 43 IDF military cemeteries throughout the country. There will also be ceremonies for volunteers from overseas who fought and died during the War of Independence, and for victims of terrorism. A small Israeli flag, adorned with a black ribbon and memorial flame, will be placed on the grave of each person who fell in Israel's battles and is buried in military cemeteries throughout Israel. The official IDF Memorial Day ceremony at the Western Wall Monday night Israel newsphoto: Tovia Singer The ceremonies, flags and media attention throughout the day express the country's respect and appreciation for the fallen as well as its participation in the grief of the families. A total of 22,570 men and women have been killed defending the land of Israel since 1860, the year that the first Jewish settlers left the secure walls of Jerusalem to build new Jewish neighborhoods. Another 1,723 have been reported killed in terror attacks since 1948. In the past year, since Memorial Day 2008, 13 security force members and 12 civilians have been killed in war or by terrorists. These include ten soldiers and three civilians killed during the IDF?s Operation Cast Lead against Hamas; three policemen murdered by terrorists; three victims of a bulldozer terror attack in Jerusalem; three killed by Hamas-fired rockets in towns bordering Gaza; and the last victim, 13-year-old Shlomo Nativ of Bat Ayin, who was murdered by an axe-wielding Arab terrorist. Memorial Day ends, as do other Jewish holidays, at nightfall, and the somber nature of the day gives way to the gaiety of Israel?s 61st Independence Day. The transition between the days was explained by the late Rabbi Shlomo Goren, the first Chief Rabbi of the IDF and the man who set the date of Memorial Day. He said, "We view the warriors who fall in battle as those who sprout forth life. The life of a nation grew out of this blood... This day must be more than mourning: We must remember, we must grieve, but it must [al be a day of majesty and vision." Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, in a special Independence Day message to Jewish communities around the world, said, ?Each year that we mark the rebirth of the Jewish state after long centuries of exile is a great cause for celebration? The past 61 years show just what a free and independent Jewish nation can achieve. With scarce resources, we brought a barren land back to life and absorbed millions of immigrants. Through innovation and determination, the genius of our people has made us a leader in agriculture, medicine and science, while our creativity spawned a high-tech industry that continues to amaze the world? All this has been achieved even though Israel has lived under constant threat for 61 years. Unfortunately, Israel remains under threat. An Iranian regime that is feverishly pursuing nuclear weapons brazenly calls for our destruction. Terror organizations on our southern and northern borders grow stronger by the day. And a rising tide of anti-Semitism is sweeping the civilized world? To address these challenges in the years ahead, unity among our people, both inside and outside Israel, will be more important than ever. That is why it is vital that we continue to strengthen the bonds between Israel and the Diaspora?? Independence Day is celebrated as a religious holiday by the religious-Zionist public, for the following reasons: It is a positive commandment to thank G-d for His miracles and favors, and to enact holidays to this end. The establishment of the State, in the wake of centuries of pogroms that culminated with the Holocaust, saved many Jewish lives, and helped buttress the Jewish People's spiritual condition. The establishment of the State removed the shame of Exile and the accompanying desecration of G-d's Name, as in Ezekiel 36, verses 4, 20, and others. The establishment of the State of Israel facilitates, for both individuals and the nation as a whole, the fulfillment of the Torah commandment to settle the Land of Israel.Among the Independence Day events taking place throughout the country will be a march through Jerusalem and a gathering at the Latrun armored corps monument by thousands of youths freshly-returned from the March of the Living in Auschwitz. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090428/279e869e/attachment.html From bkgivin at charter.net Tue Apr 28 16:54:01 2009 From: bkgivin at charter.net (Betty Givin) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:54:01 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Biblical Tamar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks James for this concise reporting of what has occurred and is currently going on here. The site definitely has history and to think that we have the possibility of actually going there and camping out under the stars during Sukkoth, 2010 is mind boggling, but I am sure is just the tip of the iceberg. I am just thankful that we can be a tiny part of this exciting venture. Who knows what will occur next? May things develop in HaShem's timing! Love and May HaShem go before you and bless you during your stay in Israel, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 7:07 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Biblical Tamar At end of the United Israel conference here in Charlotte this weekend I spoke about Biblical Tamar, the southernmost city of the Land of Israel, dating back to the time of Solomon (1 Kings 9:16-18; Ezk 47:18-20) as well as Ovot, the 3rd station of Israel's camping in the days of Moses, once they left Sinai (Num 21:10-11). I put it in the wider context of the Aravah/desert and how the region is mentioned in Isaiah 35:1, Isaiah 40, etc. in connection with the "Redemption" and restoration of all Israel. I also talked about Bozrah, Petra, and Mt Sinai in Paran (Hosea 5:15; Jeremiah 9:2; Isa 63:1). I then went to relate my own experiences at Tamar going back to 1991 when I first visited the late Simcha Perlmutter down there, what he meant to me over the years through subsequent visits, and the connection I felt to the area, as well as the incredible archaeological site Tamar has become. One thing I found amazing was how many in the audience had corresponded or visited Simcha Perlmutter over the years! The site of Tamar is in the hands of the Israel Parks Authority, but the "settlement" of 53 acres Biblical Tamar Park, is leased by Blossoming Rose on a long-term basis (see http://www.blossomingrose.org/), HQ in Michigan and headed by DeWayne Coxen. For the past year, and particularly over the past few months, DeWayne and I have carried on a very mutually fruitful correspondence as to ways in which we might co-operate in the future, both from the archaeological/UNC Charlotte side of things, as well as the UIWU side of things, in helping to build and develop the site, as well as offer people what I call a "desert experience." DeWayne has read my book Restoring Abrahamic Faith, so he knows where I am coming from, and I understand his own background and work as a Christian with Christians who are drawn to God, Torah, Israel, and the Land. We see lots of areas of potential co-operation, including a possible Suk