From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 2 07:05:51 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 08:05:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Simon Peter/Cephas & the Jewish Prayer Book Message-ID: <67EE7E7E-478A-4BA2-B53C-37C761506175@earthlink.net> Some of you might know the tradition, quite disputed but fascinating, that Simon Peter--yes the N.T. apostle of Yeshua, actually wrote one of the morning/Shacharit prayers of the official Jewish Prayerbook-- there is a nice discussion of this and other matters at the Synagogue without Walls, based on Gordon & Johnson's book, A Prayer to our Father. Check it out if you are interested and please jump in if you like. http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/aprayertoourfather Shavua' Tov, James From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 2 07:55:22 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 08:55:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Nice Summary Story on the Mt Zion Excavation Results Message-ID: There is an exceptionally well done story with photos on our recently completed Jerusalem/Mt. Zion excavation results at the Web site Bible Interpetation. So much that gets picked up in the press is not always accurate. This one was properly fact checked and is reliable. Thanks to Professor Mark Elliot for all his hard work on this. Here is the link: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/zion.shtml James Tabor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090802/da9b7ce0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 2 08:09:05 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 09:09:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Living Room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3612CEE0-C877-406D-A858-1C0810FBF064@earthlink.net> Great idea, thanks for doing this Ross. I have been amazed lately at all the good materials being posted over on the Synagogue without Walls site. I realize some are not adept or fond of the "social network" Facebook/My Space kind of site, and I was very green about this too when I first joined up some months ago, but with a little effort I found myself able to navigate and appreciate its features. In fact, I will be honest with you here Ross, when you first proposed that site I thought it was a bit too much--you know, kind of silly, to have a FB like site for our movement. Turns out I was wrong and I am excited about the possibilities. BTW, wonderful lesson yesterday. Amazing Torah reading... James On Jul 29, 2009, at 9:04 PM, Ross Nichols wrote: > There is now a new mailing list for people who wish to subscribe to > a more living room type environment. Thanks for the patience and for > the idea. I will write a better description later. You are welcome > to remain on this list as well as joining the new list. > > http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/sww-living-room > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090802/0c9962e0/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 2 13:09:38 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 13:09:38 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_=5BDialogue=5D_John_Bolton:_It=E2=80=99s?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Crunch_Time_for_Israel_on_Iran?= References: <60167.74512.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3EA17E833AB64E6FA2B7D01CE00A5804@davesbook> Test.....I am testing out some of the changes with "this list' only a test dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Eddy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: [Dialogue] John Bolton: It?s Crunch Time for Israel on Iran If this is not appropriate for the dialogue, let me know. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574316093622744808.html Betty Eddy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090802/ad6f41e8/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 2 14:29:53 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtEaWFsb2d1ZV0gSm9obiBCb2x0b246IEl04oCZcyBDcnVuY2ggVGlt?= =?utf-8?B?ZSBmb3IgSXNyYWVsIG9uIElyYW4=?= Message-ID: <262877.3648.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I do OK on tests... so you you, it would seem - you passed. --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Dave Cole wrote: From: Dave Cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] John Bolton: It?s Crunch Time for Israel on Iran To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 1:09 PM ? Test.....I am testing out some of the changes with "this list' ? only a test dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Eddy To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: [Dialogue] John Bolton: It?s Crunch Time for Israel on Iran If this is not appropriate for the dialogue, let me know. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574316093622744808.html Betty Eddy _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090802/3c56bd70/attachment.html From jid at westnet.com.au Sun Aug 2 15:08:36 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 06:08:36 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Haftarot of Consolation. Message-ID: <4A75F244.9000000@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/b0efad4e/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 2 19:18:02 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:18:02 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols References: Message-ID: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> All, As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out some details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list is an important tool that we use to share input with each other. Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be a learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue list in the long run. Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some biblical dialogue. dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Robbins" To: Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > James, > > So many good suggestions here. Implementation of Cody's Living Room > allows for personal communications as well as the Biblical and political > subjects we find of great interest. Using Dialogue to discuss the weekly > Parashot in greater depth should prove quite beneficial for all. It > compliments Ross's teaching for the week and will serve to really make us > think about the particular section we are in. Personally, I am very > excited about hearing more on the Elohim! After reading "Sons of Elohim," > my mind is simply exploding with questions and possible scenarios! I can > hardly wait to hear more. > > Like you, I appreciate all that Ross does for so many, not only in his own > neighborhood, but around the world! His work in gathering the Lost Sheep > of the House of Israel is an amazing success. And Nehemiah Gordon having > joined SWW adds so much to that wonderful website! (Maybe Tovia will be > next????) > > Looking so forward to bigger and better things for all! > > Love, > > Avigail/Pat > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "James Tabor" > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:50 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > >> Dear Ross and all, >> >> I appreciate the clarity and content of this post and I know you put a >> lot of thought into it. Like you I find myself of "two minds" regarding >> the purposes and functions of an e-mail discussion list such as Dialogue >> and I have expressed that here and there along the way the past few >> weeks. For me the deciding factor is really the PUBLIC nature of the >> Dialogue list. Since it is potentially open to anyone to join, even >> globally, you are correct that it does not make a lot of sense for a few >> of us, who know each other on a first name basis, including an >> understanding of personal circumstances, to mainly use such a vehicle >> for personal/social communications. And I think most of us agree such a >> clarification of the purpose of the Dialogue list would not in any way >> cast doubt or dispersion on the value and importance of such areas of >> communication. It is theoretically possible to "do both" I suppose, but >> I do think for a public list it makes more sense to do just as you say >> here--to return to your original founding purpose. There can be other >> "lists" and forums, such as you mention here (Cody's Living Room idea >> which I and many others loved--as well as the multifaceted capacity of >> the rather amazing SWW Web site), but when you think about it, the >> Dialogue list as you originally conceived of it might be totally unique >> out there on the Internet--and it would truly be a wonderful thing to >> see it reach its purpose, mission, and potential--providing a place of >> "Dialogue" and respectful exchange on a host of Biblical topics. I for >> one want to help you make that work. >> >> At the same time I want to give more time than I have in the past to the >> SWW site. I have posted there some and like others, it can be a bit >> overwhelming at times to navigate, but with a bit of effort it is not >> too bad at all and you have done a masterful job of setting up the >> various areas. I love going there and seeing what is the latest. I >> notice now that even Nehemia Gordon is signed on, so we would have HIM >> with us to discuss the new book on the Lord's Prayer--that is pretty >> amazing when you think of it. I am thinking we have not even begun to >> explore the potential of that site as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the Dialogue list. What I am going to do my best to do >> as often as time permits is to contribute regularly to substantive >> biblical discussions with the idea of fulfilling the dream you outline >> here. I am amazed at all you do Ross but it occurs to me that one "easy" >> way to do this, week by week, is if those of us who read and/or listen >> to your teaching on the Torah portions delved a bit into the topics that >> naturally come up in those parashot. I realize any topic is game, but it >> strikes me as one way to really add some depth and content to what you >> have in mind for this List. >> >> I really loved the Elohim discussion that we began a week or so ago and >> I hope to also pick up on that. >> >> Thanks again for all you do Ross. When it comes to leaders you are truly >> one of the best. If people think you and I have some mutual >> admiration/back patting society going on here so be it--just kidding >> here, but truly I do appreciate all you do and have done and the >> lifetime of learning you bring to your unique and special teaching. >> >> YHVH be with you and drive safely today! >> >> James Tabor >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: >> >>> I am in a hotel room in Charlotte with Web Hulon and James Tabor. We >>> have had the most incredible time this weekend. >>> >>> I must say however that all of the back and forth on the list has >>> reached such a level of degradation that we are deeply troubled. >>> >>> Some time back I tried to bring the list back to the original purpose. >>> What I want you to understand is that I am trying to do something quite >>> different. This is in ways unprecedented. Until recently, and only now >>> because of the modern technology are we all able to join up with people >>> literally from around the world. This is a PUBLIC list, open and >>> available to anyone in the world, globally. Think about it. If a few >>> dozen people mainly exchange very personal messages, no matter what >>> their value, which I surely do not question (birthdays, prayer >>> requests, personal support), keep in mind that the hundreds and >>> potentially thousands, who are joining often have no idea what is going >>> on. I still have the hope that people can come together and have civil >>> conversations about a subject that all of us find to be of great >>> import--namely The Bible. >>> >>> What I have found out is that many people are generally lonely. They no >>> longer belong to congregations. They have been ostracized by family and >>> friends. I see that these issues are important. >>> >>> People have needs. These needs are different for different people. >>> >>> We (James Tabor and I) met Web and his group in April. I have the >>> greatest respect for them and even invited them to join us for Succoth. >>> Even this morning we met over coffee to discuss our coming together for >>> the purpose of celebrating together. The meeting was positive on every >>> level. >>> >>> I want everyone to STOP now with the divisions! Web and James are with >>> me this evening. We have discussed the entire exchange in great detail. >>> All along the way, in the midst of the back and forth there were ideas >>> that were suggested that could have been good solutions. >>> >>> One such suggestion was to start another list with a new purpose. Cody >>> volunteered to start a new list that met the needs that were outside of >>> the purpose of this list. I now see that as the ONLY way that we can >>> move forward. Those that join this new list will not lose the personal >>> and social aspects that they currently experience on the dialogue. The >>> Dialogue will return to its purpose. My firm decision is that we return >>> this list to its original vision and purposes, without in any way >>> devaluing the very important additional things that people want to >>> communicate. >>> >>> The potential for the growth of this list is unpredictable. I want to >>> solve this issue before it is too late and frankly, I would be >>> embarrassed to have our many new people joining read the negative and >>> divisive posts that have been posted in the past few days. >>> >>> The dialogue list is to return to what it was supposed to be - what I >>> stated on my website. We will start another list called the living room >>> for all other comments. Those who wish to join may do so. I will send >>> out the information soon. >>> >>> Keep in mind, we also have the Synagogue Without Walls that provides an >>> avenue for people to do these things right now. There is a wonderful >>> place set up by Kim for prayer requests on the SWW. >>> >>> Please take the time to explore this site. There is also a new chat >>> room. >>> >>> I do appreciate all of the supportive notes and I am now asking that >>> you honor this message. >>> >>> Thank and shalom - Ross >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Aug 2 19:27:37 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 20:27:37 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> Message-ID: <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> Dave, Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. Im not sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived my me as censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God be God and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. Shalom, Marvin -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols All, As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out some details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list is an important tool that we use to share input with each other. Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be a learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue list in the long run. Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some biblical dialogue. dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Robbins" To: Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > James, > > So many good suggestions here. Implementation of Cody's Living Room > allows for personal communications as well as the Biblical and political > subjects we find of great interest. Using Dialogue to discuss the weekly > Parashot in greater depth should prove quite beneficial for all. It > compliments Ross's teaching for the week and will serve to really make us > think about the particular section we are in. Personally, I am very > excited about hearing more on the Elohim! After reading "Sons of Elohim," > my mind is simply exploding with questions and possible scenarios! I can > hardly wait to hear more. > > Like you, I appreciate all that Ross does for so many, not only in his own > neighborhood, but around the world! His work in gathering the Lost Sheep > of the House of Israel is an amazing success. And Nehemiah Gordon having > joined SWW adds so much to that wonderful website! (Maybe Tovia will be > next????) > > Looking so forward to bigger and better things for all! > > Love, > > Avigail/Pat > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "James Tabor" > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:50 AM > To: > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > >> Dear Ross and all, >> >> I appreciate the clarity and content of this post and I know you put a >> lot of thought into it. Like you I find myself of "two minds" regarding >> the purposes and functions of an e-mail discussion list such as Dialogue >> and I have expressed that here and there along the way the past few >> weeks. For me the deciding factor is really the PUBLIC nature of the >> Dialogue list. Since it is potentially open to anyone to join, even >> globally, you are correct that it does not make a lot of sense for a few >> of us, who know each other on a first name basis, including an >> understanding of personal circumstances, to mainly use such a vehicle >> for personal/social communications. And I think most of us agree such a >> clarification of the purpose of the Dialogue list would not in any way >> cast doubt or dispersion on the value and importance of such areas of >> communication. It is theoretically possible to "do both" I suppose, but >> I do think for a public list it makes more sense to do just as you say >> here--to return to your original founding purpose. There can be other >> "lists" and forums, such as you mention here (Cody's Living Room idea >> which I and many others loved--as well as the multifaceted capacity of >> the rather amazing SWW Web site), but when you think about it, the >> Dialogue list as you originally conceived of it might be totally unique >> out there on the Internet--and it would truly be a wonderful thing to >> see it reach its purpose, mission, and potential--providing a place of >> "Dialogue" and respectful exchange on a host of Biblical topics. I for >> one want to help you make that work. >> >> At the same time I want to give more time than I have in the past to the >> SWW site. I have posted there some and like others, it can be a bit >> overwhelming at times to navigate, but with a bit of effort it is not >> too bad at all and you have done a masterful job of setting up the >> various areas. I love going there and seeing what is the latest. I >> notice now that even Nehemia Gordon is signed on, so we would have HIM >> with us to discuss the new book on the Lord's Prayer--that is pretty >> amazing when you think of it. I am thinking we have not even begun to >> explore the potential of that site as well. >> >> Anyway, back to the Dialogue list. What I am going to do my best to do >> as often as time permits is to contribute regularly to substantive >> biblical discussions with the idea of fulfilling the dream you outline >> here. I am amazed at all you do Ross but it occurs to me that one "easy" >> way to do this, week by week, is if those of us who read and/or listen >> to your teaching on the Torah portions delved a bit into the topics that >> naturally come up in those parashot. I realize any topic is game, but it >> strikes me as one way to really add some depth and content to what you >> have in mind for this List. >> >> I really loved the Elohim discussion that we began a week or so ago and >> I hope to also pick up on that. >> >> Thanks again for all you do Ross. When it comes to leaders you are truly >> one of the best. If people think you and I have some mutual >> admiration/back patting society going on here so be it--just kidding >> here, but truly I do appreciate all you do and have done and the >> lifetime of learning you bring to your unique and special teaching. >> >> YHVH be with you and drive safely today! >> >> James Tabor >> >> >> On Jul 27, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: >> >>> I am in a hotel room in Charlotte with Web Hulon and James Tabor. We >>> have had the most incredible time this weekend. >>> >>> I must say however that all of the back and forth on the list has >>> reached such a level of degradation that we are deeply troubled. >>> >>> Some time back I tried to bring the list back to the original purpose. >>> What I want you to understand is that I am trying to do something quite >>> different. This is in ways unprecedented. Until recently, and only now >>> because of the modern technology are we all able to join up with people >>> literally from around the world. This is a PUBLIC list, open and >>> available to anyone in the world, globally. Think about it. If a few >>> dozen people mainly exchange very personal messages, no matter what >>> their value, which I surely do not question (birthdays, prayer >>> requests, personal support), keep in mind that the hundreds and >>> potentially thousands, who are joining often have no idea what is going >>> on. I still have the hope that people can come together and have civil >>> conversations about a subject that all of us find to be of great >>> import--namely The Bible. >>> >>> What I have found out is that many people are generally lonely. They no >>> longer belong to congregations. They have been ostracized by family and >>> friends. I see that these issues are important. >>> >>> People have needs. These needs are different for different people. >>> >>> We (James Tabor and I) met Web and his group in April. I have the >>> greatest respect for them and even invited them to join us for Succoth. >>> Even this morning we met over coffee to discuss our coming together for >>> the purpose of celebrating together. The meeting was positive on every >>> level. >>> >>> I want everyone to STOP now with the divisions! Web and James are with >>> me this evening. We have discussed the entire exchange in great detail. >>> All along the way, in the midst of the back and forth there were ideas >>> that were suggested that could have been good solutions. >>> >>> One such suggestion was to start another list with a new purpose. Cody >>> volunteered to start a new list that met the needs that were outside of >>> the purpose of this list. I now see that as the ONLY way that we can >>> move forward. Those that join this new list will not lose the personal >>> and social aspects that they currently experience on the dialogue. The >>> Dialogue will return to its purpose. My firm decision is that we return >>> this list to its original vision and purposes, without in any way >>> devaluing the very important additional things that people want to >>> communicate. >>> >>> The potential for the growth of this list is unpredictable. I want to >>> solve this issue before it is too late and frankly, I would be >>> embarrassed to have our many new people joining read the negative and >>> divisive posts that have been posted in the past few days. >>> >>> The dialogue list is to return to what it was supposed to be - what I >>> stated on my website. We will start another list called the living room >>> for all other comments. Those who wish to join may do so. I will send >>> out the information soon. >>> >>> Keep in mind, we also have the Synagogue Without Walls that provides an >>> avenue for people to do these things right now. There is a wonderful >>> place set up by Kim for prayer requests on the SWW. >>> >>> Please take the time to explore this site. There is also a new chat >>> room. >>> >>> I do appreciate all of the supportive notes and I am now asking that >>> you honor this message. >>> >>> Thank and shalom - Ross >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 2 20:56:45 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 20:56:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> Message-ID: dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hyde" To: Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > Dave, > > Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. Im not > sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived my me > as > censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy > water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God be God > and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. > > Shalom, > Marvin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > All, > > As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! > > I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out some > details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list is > an > > important tool that we use to share input with each other. > > Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be a > learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue > list in the long run. > > Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some biblical > dialogue. > > > dave > > _______________________________________________ From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 2 22:42:36 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 22:42:36 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook><064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> Message-ID: <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> Hey Marvin..... I was not aware that you see this as censorship, although I think I understand where you are coming from here Marvin, and I somewhat agree. I hope you continue to post your usual insights that many have come to love here. Everyone, I would hope that all of us could have meaningful dialogue with out name calling and needless threats, or suggestions on what one should or should not do (baseless hate), as you should know, there were some harsh posts leading up to this decision (to allow/disallow) monitoring of this list. I also do not particularly like being censored as I try to censor myself. From my point of view (unfortunately) this action is necessary if this unique dialogue group is to continue, as I have seen some of the censored post and from what Ross conveyed to me, they were nothing like what he received on his private mail. One of the topics that we have covered from the Torah readings of late is of leaders helping Moses judge matters that arose during the exodus, when his father in law advised him to 'get some help'. cause you can't do it all. (see Exodus 18:18). Does this apply to what is going on here. Ross can't do it all and clearly some one needs to help him in these matters. This is a good Topic....Moses who talked to G-d face to face has his father in law tell him how to do his job......wow! You would think Moses' would have had the big head and said something in the effect of "hey I know what I am doing........who are you? But he of course was a most humblest man. (Num.12:3)..... Marvin.....perhaps Hashem is doing the driving here! I have always said that this list is not being guided by man.....Each of us should feel led to post (and be allowed to post) what is on their heart. At the same time we should understand that many will read and some could take offense if we are not full of care. example...what if there was a sincere catholic observing this list and read 'Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy water before we are allowed to pass' .....others could say "If you don't want to talk about biblical topics on this list then find someplace else to go or start your own or go to the SWW site". (what verse is that?) Hopefuly if any one is still here, they WANT to be here! So lets tough this one out and see what G-d does. Another great topic is Pro 18:19 A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: and [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle. It is hard not to offend someone.......its even harder not to be easly offended. Thankfully our friend Ross is very hard to offend, I know I have tried! Hey.....but what do I know! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cole" To: Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin Hyde" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:27 PM > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > > >> Dave, >> >> Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. Im not >> sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived my me >> as >> censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy >> water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God be God >> and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. >> >> Shalom, >> Marvin >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole >> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross >> Nichols >> >> All, >> >> As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! >> >> I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out some >> details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list is >> an >> >> important tool that we use to share input with each other. >> >> Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be a >> learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue >> list in the long run. >> >> Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some biblical >> dialogue. >> >> >> dave >> > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090802/45a10026/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Aug 3 07:18:26 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 08:18:26 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> Message-ID: I for one do not see the changes Ross is attempting to make as censorship at all. I had written a post on this previously but maybe it was one that did not get through :-)--just kidding you here Marvin, I think it did get through. What I expressed was the need to remember the difference between a "public" and a private list, in terms of the "Living Room" things that a small group want to share among one another, for fellowship, prayer, encouragement, and just getting to know one another. I am not talking about privacy here, but just that a larger public has no idea who x, y, or z is, their personal life, or what is what about this or that--in other words, legitimate chat and exchanges among friends. Ross wants to draw visitors and new people interested in exploring Hebrew Roots of Faith and its implications, thus the Dialogue list. In terms of views expressed, I would say Ross is about as uncensoring of an individual as anyone I know. I have seen him for years patiently dealing with questions and people who come from different perspectives, and showing them respect, not cutting them off, etc. I forgot who brought this up, maybe Cody, but I thought it was a perfect solution, to have two lists--one public for biblical topics in keeping with the original purposes of the Dialogue list as stated on the Web site, and another "Living Room" site for personal things among a more intimate group. Anyway, my two cents worth, and a bit more, on this gray Monday. It was great seeing you last week Marvin, and especially meeting your wife--hey let's see if I can slip by the censor and get this personal comment through! James On Aug 2, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: > Dave, > > Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. > Im not > sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived > my me as > censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling > holy > water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God > be God > and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. > > Shalom, > Marvin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > All, > > As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! > > I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out > some > details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this > list is an > > important tool that we use to share input with each other. > > Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will > be a > learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better > dialogue > list in the long run. > > Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some > biblical > dialogue. > > > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Robbins" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > >> James, >> >> So many good suggestions here. Implementation of Cody's Living Room >> allows for personal communications as well as the Biblical and >> political >> subjects we find of great interest. Using Dialogue to discuss the >> weekly >> Parashot in greater depth should prove quite beneficial for all. It >> compliments Ross's teaching for the week and will serve to really >> make us >> think about the particular section we are in. Personally, I am very >> excited about hearing more on the Elohim! After reading "Sons of >> Elohim," > >> my mind is simply exploding with questions and possible scenarios! >> I can >> hardly wait to hear more. >> >> Like you, I appreciate all that Ross does for so many, not only in >> his own > >> neighborhood, but around the world! His work in gathering the Lost >> Sheep >> of the House of Israel is an amazing success. And Nehemiah Gordon >> having >> joined SWW adds so much to that wonderful website! (Maybe Tovia >> will be >> next????) >> >> Looking so forward to bigger and better things for all! >> >> Love, >> >> Avigail/Pat >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "James Tabor" >> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:50 AM >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross >> Nichols >> >>> Dear Ross and all, >>> >>> I appreciate the clarity and content of this post and I know you >>> put a >>> lot of thought into it. Like you I find myself of "two minds" >>> regarding >>> the purposes and functions of an e-mail discussion list such as >>> Dialogue > >>> and I have expressed that here and there along the way the past few >>> weeks. For me the deciding factor is really the PUBLIC nature of >>> the >>> Dialogue list. Since it is potentially open to anyone to join, even >>> globally, you are correct that it does not make a lot of sense >>> for a few > >>> of us, who know each other on a first name basis, including an >>> understanding of personal circumstances, to mainly use such a >>> vehicle >>> for personal/social communications. And I think most of us agree >>> such a >>> clarification of the purpose of the Dialogue list would not in >>> any way >>> cast doubt or dispersion on the value and importance of such >>> areas of >>> communication. It is theoretically possible to "do both" I >>> suppose, but >>> I do think for a public list it makes more sense to do just as >>> you say >>> here--to return to your original founding purpose. There can be >>> other >>> "lists" and forums, such as you mention here (Cody's Living Room >>> idea >>> which I and many others loved--as well as the multifaceted >>> capacity of >>> the rather amazing SWW Web site), but when you think about it, the >>> Dialogue list as you originally conceived of it might be totally >>> unique >>> out there on the Internet--and it would truly be a wonderful >>> thing to >>> see it reach its purpose, mission, and potential--providing a >>> place of >>> "Dialogue" and respectful exchange on a host of Biblical topics. >>> I for >>> one want to help you make that work. >>> >>> At the same time I want to give more time than I have in the past >>> to the > >>> SWW site. I have posted there some and like others, it can be a bit >>> overwhelming at times to navigate, but with a bit of effort it is >>> not >>> too bad at all and you have done a masterful job of setting up the >>> various areas. I love going there and seeing what is the latest. I >>> notice now that even Nehemia Gordon is signed on, so we would have >>> HIM >>> with us to discuss the new book on the Lord's Prayer--that is pretty >>> amazing when you think of it. I am thinking we have not even begun >>> to >>> explore the potential of that site as well. >>> >>> Anyway, back to the Dialogue list. What I am going to do my best >>> to do >>> as often as time permits is to contribute regularly to substantive >>> biblical discussions with the idea of fulfilling the dream you >>> outline >>> here. I am amazed at all you do Ross but it occurs to me that one >>> "easy" > >>> way to do this, week by week, is if those of us who read and/or >>> listen >>> to your teaching on the Torah portions delved a bit into the >>> topics that > >>> naturally come up in those parashot. I realize any topic is game, >>> but it > >>> strikes me as one way to really add some depth and content to >>> what you >>> have in mind for this List. >>> >>> I really loved the Elohim discussion that we began a week or so >>> ago and >>> I hope to also pick up on that. >>> >>> Thanks again for all you do Ross. When it comes to leaders you >>> are truly > >>> one of the best. If people think you and I have some mutual >>> admiration/back patting society going on here so be it--just kidding >>> here, but truly I do appreciate all you do and have done and the >>> lifetime of learning you bring to your unique and special teaching. >>> >>> YHVH be with you and drive safely today! >>> >>> James Tabor >>> >>> >>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: >>> >>>> I am in a hotel room in Charlotte with Web Hulon and James Tabor. >>>> We >>>> have had the most incredible time this weekend. >>>> >>>> I must say however that all of the back and forth on the list has >>>> reached such a level of degradation that we are deeply troubled. >>>> >>>> Some time back I tried to bring the list back to the original >>>> purpose. >>>> What I want you to understand is that I am trying to do >>>> something quite > >>>> different. This is in ways unprecedented. Until recently, and >>>> only now >>>> because of the modern technology are we all able to join up with >>>> people > >>>> literally from around the world. This is a PUBLIC list, open and >>>> available to anyone in the world, globally. Think about it. If a >>>> few >>>> dozen people mainly exchange very personal messages, no matter >>>> what >>>> their value, which I surely do not question (birthdays, prayer >>>> requests, personal support), keep in mind that the hundreds and >>>> potentially thousands, who are joining often have no idea what >>>> is going > >>>> on. I still have the hope that people can come together and >>>> have civil > >>>> conversations about a subject that all of us find to be of great >>>> import--namely The Bible. >>>> >>>> What I have found out is that many people are generally lonely. >>>> They no > >>>> longer belong to congregations. They have been ostracized by >>>> family and > >>>> friends. I see that these issues are important. >>>> >>>> People have needs. These needs are different for different people. >>>> >>>> We (James Tabor and I) met Web and his group in April. I have the >>>> greatest respect for them and even invited them to join us for >>>> Succoth. > >>>> Even this morning we met over coffee to discuss our coming >>>> together for > >>>> the purpose of celebrating together. The meeting was positive on >>>> every >>>> level. >>>> >>>> I want everyone to STOP now with the divisions! Web and James >>>> are with >>>> me this evening. We have discussed the entire exchange in great >>>> detail. > >>>> All along the way, in the midst of the back and forth there were >>>> ideas >>>> that were suggested that could have been good solutions. >>>> >>>> One such suggestion was to start another list with a new >>>> purpose. Cody >>>> volunteered to start a new list that met the needs that were >>>> outside of > >>>> the purpose of this list. I now see that as the ONLY way that we >>>> can >>>> move forward. Those that join this new list will not lose the >>>> personal >>>> and social aspects that they currently experience on the >>>> dialogue. The >>>> Dialogue will return to its purpose. My firm decision is that we >>>> return > >>>> this list to its original vision and purposes, without in any way >>>> devaluing the very important additional things that people want to >>>> communicate. >>>> >>>> The potential for the growth of this list is unpredictable. I >>>> want to >>>> solve this issue before it is too late and frankly, I would be >>>> embarrassed to have our many new people joining read the >>>> negative and >>>> divisive posts that have been posted in the past few days. >>>> >>>> The dialogue list is to return to what it was supposed to be - >>>> what I >>>> stated on my website. We will start another list called the >>>> living room > >>>> for all other comments. Those who wish to join may do so. I will >>>> send >>>> out the information soon. >>>> >>>> Keep in mind, we also have the Synagogue Without Walls that >>>> provides an > >>>> avenue for people to do these things right now. There is a >>>> wonderful >>>> place set up by Kim for prayer requests on the SWW. >>>> >>>> Please take the time to explore this site. There is also a new chat >>>> room. >>>> >>>> I do appreciate all of the supportive notes and I am now asking >>>> that >>>> you honor this message. >>>> >>>> Thank and shalom - Ross >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Aug 3 05:15:44 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 06:15:44 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook><064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> Message-ID: <760B087B43BF477C83C69FDC63D05EAC@TESTPC> Thanks Dave for the reply. Your point taken. I apologize if I offended any Catholics. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols Hey Marvin..... I was not aware that you see this as censorship, although I think I understand where you are coming from here Marvin, and I somewhat agree. I hope you continue to post your usual insights that many have come to love here. Everyone, I would hope that all of us could have meaningful dialogue with out name calling and needless threats, or suggestions on what one should or should not do (baseless hate), as you should know, there were some harsh posts leading up to this decision (to allow/disallow) monitoring of this list. I also do not particularly like being censored as I try to censor myself. >From my point of view (unfortunately) this action is necessary if this unique dialogue group is to continue, as I have seen some of the censored post and from what Ross conveyed to me, they were nothing like what he received on his private mail. One of the topics that we have covered from the Torah readings of late is of leaders helping Moses judge matters that arose during the exodus, when his father in law advised him to 'get some help'. cause you can't do it all. (see Exodus 18:18). Does this apply to what is going on here. Ross can't do it all and clearly some one needs to help him in these matters. This is a good Topic....Moses who talked to G-d face to face has his father in law tell him how to do his job......wow! You would think Moses' would have had the big head and said something in the effect of "hey I know what I am doing........who are you? But he of course was a most humblest man. (Num.12:3)..... Marvin.....perhaps Hashem is doing the driving here! I have always said that this list is not being guided by man.....Each of us should feel led to post (and be allowed to post) what is on their heart. At the same time we should understand that many will read and some could take offense if we are not full of care. example...what if there was a sincere catholic observing this list and read 'Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy water before we are allowed to pass' .....others could say "If you don't want to talk about biblical topics on this list then find someplace else to go or start your own or go to the SWW site". (what verse is that?) Hopefuly if any one is still here, they WANT to be here! So lets tough this one out and see what G-d does. Another great topic is Pro 18:19 A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: and [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle. It is hard not to offend someone.......its even harder not to be easly offended. Thankfully our friend Ross is very hard to offend, I know I have tried! Hey.....but what do I know! dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cole" < dhcole1 at cox.net> To: < dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin Hyde" < mhyde7 at tds.net> > To: < dialogue at rootsoffaith.org> > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:27 PM > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols > > >> Dave, >> >> Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. Im not >> sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived my me >> as >> censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy >> water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God be God >> and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. >> >> Shalom, >> Marvin >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole >> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross >> Nichols >> >> All, >> >> As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! >> >> I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out some >> details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list is >> an >> >> important tool that we use to share input with each other. >> >> Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be a >> learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue >> list in the long run. >> >> Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some biblical >> dialogue. >> >> >> dave >> > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/80b152d8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 07:33:27 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 08:33:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> Message-ID: <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> Hey Dave, Thanks for all your work on the tech side of stuff, I'm sure I can say with *certainty* that *everyone* appreciates (see, getting a consensus isn't *that *hard) you for it. Having said that, I just wanted to say that I line up *totally * with Marvin on the points he made. I have two questions, and then I'll just step back into the shadows, because I have *no* intention of posting something, and then letting someone else decide if it "makes the cut," or not. Even someone whom I love and admire (and always WILL love and admire) as much as Ross, and with all the good intentions behind it. So, question #1 is: What is the planned degree of censorship, ooops - politically incorrect term; *moderation*, for the new "Living Room" list? Second question: I can only imagine the anger filled notes that Ross received privately; and astoundingly for me, I didn't write *any *of them (probably a first, for me...)! However, in business, whenever there was a major controversy, particularly on email, I found it wasn't *that *difficult to trace back to where the "issue" and/or "insults" began, and then just deal with that individual, or individuals. Just a thought...but, why wasn't that done here??? If it would have been stopped at the source, I think you could have avoided a LOT of bitterness. Now, let me get back to packing....I submit the immigration visa application today, shippers come in 2 weeks, and I leave for HOME in 34 days; with, or without, a functioning Dialogue List.... * Hanoch * *"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition"* * Monty Python* On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > Hey Marvin..... > > I was not aware that you see this as censorship, although I think > I understand where you are coming from here Marvin, and I somewhat agree. I > hope you continue to post your usual insights that many have come to love > here. > > Everyone, > > I would hope that all of us could have meaningful dialogue with out name > calling and needless threats, or suggestions on what one should or should > not do (baseless hate), as you should know, there were some harsh posts > leading up to this decision (to allow/disallow) monitoring of this list. I > also do not particularly like being censored as I try to censor myself. > From my point of view (unfortunately) this action is necessary if this > unique dialogue group is to continue, as I have seen some of the censored > post and from what Ross conveyed to me, they were nothing like what he > received on his private mail. > > One of the topics that we have covered from the Torah readings of late is > of leaders helping Moses judge matters that arose during the exodus, when > his father in law advised him to 'get some help'. cause you can't do it > all. (see Exodus 18:18). Does this apply to what is going on here. Ross > can't do it all and clearly some one needs to help him in these matters. > This is a good Topic....Moses who talked to G-d face to face has his father > in law tell him how to do his job......wow! You would think Moses' would > have had the big head and said something in the effect of "hey I know what I > am doing........who are you? But he of course was a most humblest man. > (Num.12:3)..... > > Marvin.....perhaps Hashem is doing the driving here! I have always said > that this list is not being guided by man.....Each of us should feel led to > post (and be allowed to post) what is on their heart. At the same time we > should understand that many will read and some could take offense if we are > not full of care. example...what if there was a sincere catholic observing > this list and read *'Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling > holy water before we are allowed to pass' *.....others could say "*If you > don't want to talk about biblical topics on this list then find someplace > else to go or start your own or go to the SWW site". *(what verse is > that?) *Hopefuly if any one is still here, they WANT to be here! So lets > tough this one out and see what G-d does. * > > Another great topic is > > Pro 18:19 A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: > and [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle. > > It is hard not to offend someone.......its even harder not to be easly > offended. Thankfully our friend Ross is very hard to offend, I know I have > tried! > > *Hey.....but what do I know!* > dave > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Cole" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > > > > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marvin Hyde" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:27 PM > > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > > > > >> Dave, > >> > >> Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. Im > not > >> sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived my > me > >> as > >> censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy > >> water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God be > God > >> and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. > >> > >> Shalom, > >> Marvin > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole > >> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM > >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > >> Nichols > >> > >> All, > >> > >> As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! > >> > >> I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out > some > >> details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this list > is > >> an > >> > >> important tool that we use to share input with each other. > >> > >> Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will be > a > >> learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better dialogue > >> list in the long run. > >> > >> Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some > biblical > >> dialogue. > >> > >> > >> dave > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/48fb57e0/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Aug 3 11:37:38 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:37:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> I regret that my point about the differences between a public forum and a more intimate list more appropriate for personal exchanges seems to have been missed here, even though I have written about it with as much clarity as I am capable two or three times in the past week to ten days. It is the main reason this whole discussion came up, not because someone needed "censoring." I also don't follow the point about a lot of bitterness? Why would someone feel bitter and against whom? Surely not Ross? James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:33 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey Dave, > > Thanks for all your work on the tech side of stuff, I'm sure I > can say with certainty that everyone appreciates (see, getting a > consensus isn't that hard) you for it. Having said that, I just > wanted to say that I line up totally with Marvin on the points he > made. > > I have two questions, and then I'll just step back into the > shadows, because I have no intention of posting something, and then > letting someone else decide if it "makes the cut," or not. Even > someone whom I love and admire (and always WILL love and admire) as > much as Ross, and with all the good intentions behind it. So, > question #1 is: What is the planned degree of censorship, ooops - > politically incorrect term; moderation, for the new "Living Room" > list? > > Second question: I can only imagine the anger filled notes that > Ross received privately; and astoundingly for me, I didn't write any > of them (probably a first, for me...)! However, in business, > whenever there was a major controversy, particularly on email, I > found it wasn't that difficult to trace back to where the "issue" > and/or "insults" began, and then just deal with that individual, or > individuals. Just a thought...but, why wasn't that done here??? If > it would have been stopped at the source, I think you could have > avoided a LOT of bitterness. > > Now, let me get back to packing....I submit the immigration visa > application today, shippers come in 2 weeks, and I leave for HOME in > 34 days; with, or without, a functioning Dialogue List.... > Hanoch > "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition" > Monty Python > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Dave Cole wrote: > Hey Marvin..... > > I was not aware that you see this as censorship, although I think I > understand where you are coming from here Marvin, and I somewhat > agree. I hope you continue to post your usual insights that many > have come to love here. > > Everyone, > > I would hope that all of us could have meaningful dialogue with out > name calling and needless threats, or suggestions on what one should > or should not do (baseless hate), as you should know, there were > some harsh posts leading up to this decision (to allow/disallow) > monitoring of this list. I also do not particularly like being > censored as I try to censor myself. From my point of view > (unfortunately) this action is necessary if this unique dialogue > group is to continue, as I have seen some of the censored post and > from what Ross conveyed to me, they were nothing like what he > received on his private mail. > > One of the topics that we have covered from the Torah readings of > late is of leaders helping Moses judge matters that arose during the > exodus, when his father in law advised him to 'get some help'. cause > you can't do it all. (see Exodus 18:18). Does this apply to what > is going on here. Ross can't do it all and clearly some one needs > to help him in these matters. This is a good Topic....Moses who > talked to G-d face to face has his father in law tell him how to do > his job......wow! You would think Moses' would have had the big > head and said something in the effect of "hey I know what I am > doing........who are you? But he of course was a most humblest > man. (Num.12:3)..... > > Marvin.....perhaps Hashem is doing the driving here! I have always > said that this list is not being guided by man.....Each of us should > feel led to post (and be allowed to post) what is on their heart. > At the same time we should understand that many will read and some > could take offense if we are not full of care. example...what if > there was a sincere catholic observing this list and read 'Kind of > like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling holy water before we > are allowed to pass' .....others could say "If you don't want to > talk about biblical topics on this list then find someplace else to > go or start your own or go to the SWW site". (what verse is that?) > Hopefuly if any one is still here, they WANT to be here! So lets > tough this one out and see what G-d does. > > Another great topic is > > Pro 18:19 > A brother offended [is harder to be won] than a strong city: and > [their] contentions [are] like the bars of a castle. > > It is hard not to offend someone.......its even harder not to be > easly offended. Thankfully our friend Ross is very hard to offend, > I know I have tried! > > Hey.....but what do I know! > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave Cole" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > > > > dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marvin Hyde" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 7:27 PM > > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from > Ross Nichols > > > > > >> Dave, > >> > >> Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching > halt. Im not > >> sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is > perceived my me > >> as > >> censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and > sprinkling holy > >> water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let > God be God > >> and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. > >> > >> Shalom, > >> Marvin > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > >> [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole > >> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM > >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from > Ross > >> Nichols > >> > >> All, > >> > >> As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! > >> > >> I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working > out some > >> details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this > list is > >> an > >> > >> important tool that we use to share input with each other. > >> > >> Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this > will be a > >> learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better > dialogue > >> list in the long run. > >> > >> Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some > biblical > >> dialogue. > >> > >> > >> dave > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/525ff725/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Mon Aug 3 13:58:12 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:58:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! In-Reply-To: <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story ?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/c001029c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Mon Aug 3 14:01:22 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 15:01:22 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! In-Reply-To: <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> Message-ID: <9E54F194-8EE9-4EB7-BD3E-6B02772190D4@earthlink.net> Thanks Patty...this is fantastic news. James On Aug 3, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Patty wrote: > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss > From the Los Angeles Times > 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem > The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is > 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able > to decipher it. > By Thomas H. Maugh II > > August 1, 2009 > > U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old > limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script > near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. > > Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited > by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line > of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the > University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along > with James Tabor of the same school. > > "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing > the find Wednesday. > > Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he > said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text > is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately > cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or > Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used > it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to > understand its meaning. > > The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim > national park since June 14. > > The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of > Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli > archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription > from the 13th century. > > The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from > the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by > King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended > with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. > > >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing > complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well- > preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three > bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and > his troops sacked the city. > > This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the > discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red > argaman dye used on priestly garments. > > On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the > remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly > after its destruction. > > They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the > Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of > about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a > street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. > > thomas.maugh at latimes.com > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/34cee4cb/attachment.html From bkgivin at verizon.net Mon Aug 3 18:43:41 2009 From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:43:41 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> Message-ID: <680940EFA80F44E2B73DB219DAD6101F@bettylaptop> Thanks, Ross, Dave, James and all. I actually do not see this as censorship at all, but rather attempting to have a more "public" list for all and the Living Room as a more private list. My own opinion is that Ross has done a super terrific job, has sought guidance from HaShem, and has come up with the best solution possible. I really hope that we can all work together here to build bridges of healing where there has been hurt or disagreement. I also wanted to let everyone know that if I am silent for awhile, it is because we just got another call to do catastrophe claims from home, so have already started our 12-16 hours a day workload! Baruch HaShem for the work, but sorry to be missing out. I would love to be in on some of the discussions on SWW. As I slowly learn to navigate this wonderful site, I am seeing the amazing benefit and outreach it can provide, and hope to see many of you there as well as on the Dialogue List, and of course the more laid back Living Room...just sorry that I cannot begin to enjoy it all now. Shalom to all, Elisheva/Betty -----Original Message----- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 7:18 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols I for one do not see the changes Ross is attempting to make as censorship at all. I had written a post on this previously but maybe it was one that did not get through :-)--just kidding you here Marvin, I think it did get through. What I expressed was the need to remember the difference between a "public" and a private list, in terms of the "Living Room" things that a small group want to share among one another, for fellowship, prayer, encouragement, and just getting to know one another. I am not talking about privacy here, but just that a larger public has no idea who x, y, or z is, their personal life, or what is what about this or that--in other words, legitimate chat and exchanges among friends. Ross wants to draw visitors and new people interested in exploring Hebrew Roots of Faith and its implications, thus the Dialogue list. In terms of views expressed, I would say Ross is about as uncensoring of an individual as anyone I know. I have seen him for years patiently dealing with questions and people who come from different perspectives, and showing them respect, not cutting them off, etc. I forgot who brought this up, maybe Cody, but I thought it was a perfect solution, to have two lists--one public for biblical topics in keeping with the original purposes of the Dialogue list as stated on the Web site, and another "Living Room" site for personal things among a more intimate group. Anyway, my two cents worth, and a bit more, on this gray Monday. It was great seeing you last week Marvin, and especially meeting your wife--hey let's see if I can slip by the censor and get this personal comment through! James On Aug 2, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: > Dave, > > Your correct things have slowed as of late to a screeching halt. > Im not > sure if your aware but the administrating of this list is perceived > my me as > censor ship. Kind of like the Pope waving his wand and sprinkling > holy > water before we are allow to pass. My 2 cents worth says let God > be God > and take your hands off and let Hashem do the driving. > > Shalom, > Marvin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 8:18 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > All, > > As we all have noticed, the Dialogue list has been slow of late! > > I want to encourage everyone to have patience as Ross is working out > some > details on how he can better administrate this list. I know this > list is an > > important tool that we use to share input with each other. > > Currently, when you post, it may not show up immediately, this will > be a > learning curve for us all, but one that will result in a better > dialogue > list in the long run. > > Ross is on it.....and I am on him to continue. so lets have some > biblical > dialogue. > > > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Robbins" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > >> James, >> >> So many good suggestions here. Implementation of Cody's Living Room >> allows for personal communications as well as the Biblical and >> political >> subjects we find of great interest. Using Dialogue to discuss the >> weekly >> Parashot in greater depth should prove quite beneficial for all. It >> compliments Ross's teaching for the week and will serve to really >> make us >> think about the particular section we are in. Personally, I am very >> excited about hearing more on the Elohim! After reading "Sons of >> Elohim," > >> my mind is simply exploding with questions and possible scenarios! >> I can >> hardly wait to hear more. >> >> Like you, I appreciate all that Ross does for so many, not only in >> his own > >> neighborhood, but around the world! His work in gathering the Lost >> Sheep >> of the House of Israel is an amazing success. And Nehemiah Gordon >> having >> joined SWW adds so much to that wonderful website! (Maybe Tovia >> will be >> next????) >> >> Looking so forward to bigger and better things for all! >> >> Love, >> >> Avigail/Pat >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "James Tabor" >> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 11:50 AM >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross >> Nichols >> >>> Dear Ross and all, >>> >>> I appreciate the clarity and content of this post and I know you >>> put a >>> lot of thought into it. Like you I find myself of "two minds" >>> regarding >>> the purposes and functions of an e-mail discussion list such as >>> Dialogue > >>> and I have expressed that here and there along the way the past few >>> weeks. For me the deciding factor is really the PUBLIC nature of >>> the >>> Dialogue list. Since it is potentially open to anyone to join, even >>> globally, you are correct that it does not make a lot of sense >>> for a few > >>> of us, who know each other on a first name basis, including an >>> understanding of personal circumstances, to mainly use such a >>> vehicle >>> for personal/social communications. And I think most of us agree >>> such a >>> clarification of the purpose of the Dialogue list would not in >>> any way >>> cast doubt or dispersion on the value and importance of such >>> areas of >>> communication. It is theoretically possible to "do both" I >>> suppose, but >>> I do think for a public list it makes more sense to do just as >>> you say >>> here--to return to your original founding purpose. There can be >>> other >>> "lists" and forums, such as you mention here (Cody's Living Room >>> idea >>> which I and many others loved--as well as the multifaceted >>> capacity of >>> the rather amazing SWW Web site), but when you think about it, the >>> Dialogue list as you originally conceived of it might be totally >>> unique >>> out there on the Internet--and it would truly be a wonderful >>> thing to >>> see it reach its purpose, mission, and potential--providing a >>> place of >>> "Dialogue" and respectful exchange on a host of Biblical topics. >>> I for >>> one want to help you make that work. >>> >>> At the same time I want to give more time than I have in the past >>> to the > >>> SWW site. I have posted there some and like others, it can be a bit >>> overwhelming at times to navigate, but with a bit of effort it is >>> not >>> too bad at all and you have done a masterful job of setting up the >>> various areas. I love going there and seeing what is the latest. I >>> notice now that even Nehemia Gordon is signed on, so we would have >>> HIM >>> with us to discuss the new book on the Lord's Prayer--that is pretty >>> amazing when you think of it. I am thinking we have not even begun >>> to >>> explore the potential of that site as well. >>> >>> Anyway, back to the Dialogue list. What I am going to do my best >>> to do >>> as often as time permits is to contribute regularly to substantive >>> biblical discussions with the idea of fulfilling the dream you >>> outline >>> here. I am amazed at all you do Ross but it occurs to me that one >>> "easy" > >>> way to do this, week by week, is if those of us who read and/or >>> listen >>> to your teaching on the Torah portions delved a bit into the >>> topics that > >>> naturally come up in those parashot. I realize any topic is game, >>> but it > >>> strikes me as one way to really add some depth and content to >>> what you >>> have in mind for this List. >>> >>> I really loved the Elohim discussion that we began a week or so >>> ago and >>> I hope to also pick up on that. >>> >>> Thanks again for all you do Ross. When it comes to leaders you >>> are truly > >>> one of the best. If people think you and I have some mutual >>> admiration/back patting society going on here so be it--just kidding >>> here, but truly I do appreciate all you do and have done and the >>> lifetime of learning you bring to your unique and special teaching. >>> >>> YHVH be with you and drive safely today! >>> >>> James Tabor >>> >>> >>> On Jul 27, 2009, at 12:24 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: >>> >>>> I am in a hotel room in Charlotte with Web Hulon and James Tabor. >>>> We >>>> have had the most incredible time this weekend. >>>> >>>> I must say however that all of the back and forth on the list has >>>> reached such a level of degradation that we are deeply troubled. >>>> >>>> Some time back I tried to bring the list back to the original >>>> purpose. >>>> What I want you to understand is that I am trying to do >>>> something quite > >>>> different. This is in ways unprecedented. Until recently, and >>>> only now >>>> because of the modern technology are we all able to join up with >>>> people > >>>> literally from around the world. This is a PUBLIC list, open and >>>> available to anyone in the world, globally. Think about it. If a >>>> few >>>> dozen people mainly exchange very personal messages, no matter >>>> what >>>> their value, which I surely do not question (birthdays, prayer >>>> requests, personal support), keep in mind that the hundreds and >>>> potentially thousands, who are joining often have no idea what >>>> is going > >>>> on. I still have the hope that people can come together and >>>> have civil > >>>> conversations about a subject that all of us find to be of great >>>> import--namely The Bible. >>>> >>>> What I have found out is that many people are generally lonely. >>>> They no > >>>> longer belong to congregations. They have been ostracized by >>>> family and > >>>> friends. I see that these issues are important. >>>> >>>> People have needs. These needs are different for different people. >>>> >>>> We (James Tabor and I) met Web and his group in April. I have the >>>> greatest respect for them and even invited them to join us for >>>> Succoth. > >>>> Even this morning we met over coffee to discuss our coming >>>> together for > >>>> the purpose of celebrating together. The meeting was positive on >>>> every >>>> level. >>>> >>>> I want everyone to STOP now with the divisions! Web and James >>>> are with >>>> me this evening. We have discussed the entire exchange in great >>>> detail. > >>>> All along the way, in the midst of the back and forth there were >>>> ideas >>>> that were suggested that could have been good solutions. >>>> >>>> One such suggestion was to start another list with a new >>>> purpose. Cody >>>> volunteered to start a new list that met the needs that were >>>> outside of > >>>> the purpose of this list. I now see that as the ONLY way that we >>>> can >>>> move forward. Those that join this new list will not lose the >>>> personal >>>> and social aspects that they currently experience on the >>>> dialogue. The >>>> Dialogue will return to its purpose. My firm decision is that we >>>> return > >>>> this list to its original vision and purposes, without in any way >>>> devaluing the very important additional things that people want to >>>> communicate. >>>> >>>> The potential for the growth of this list is unpredictable. I >>>> want to >>>> solve this issue before it is too late and frankly, I would be >>>> embarrassed to have our many new people joining read the >>>> negative and >>>> divisive posts that have been posted in the past few days. >>>> >>>> The dialogue list is to return to what it was supposed to be - >>>> what I >>>> stated on my website. We will start another list called the >>>> living room > >>>> for all other comments. Those who wish to join may do so. I will >>>> send >>>> out the information soon. >>>> >>>> Keep in mind, we also have the Synagogue Without Walls that >>>> provides an > >>>> avenue for people to do these things right now. There is a >>>> wonderful >>>> place set up by Kim for prayer requests on the SWW. >>>> >>>> Please take the time to explore this site. There is also a new chat >>>> room. >>>> >>>> I do appreciate all of the supportive notes and I am now asking >>>> that >>>> you honor this message. >>>> >>>> Thank and shalom - Ross >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ From MELA91E at aol.com Mon Aug 3 18:58:18 2009 From: MELA91E at aol.com (MELA91E at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:58:18 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols Message-ID: Hey Dave, There was a great post on SWW a good while ago by Hez on Lashon Hara, unfortunately I think it may have been one of them that got ate when Hez accidently pressed the wrong button on the site, which is a shame as it was probably worth a look out cause it matches the theme on this one - the responsibility to guard ones tongue as best as one can and how it has a strong biblical principle at its heart as you have alluded. (there is another small post from Hez that also covers the subject though the first was by far the best and deeply informative - the remaining post is here_ _http://www.rootsoffaith.net/forum/topics/love-and-justice_ (http://www.rootsoffaith.net/forum/topics/love-and-justice) it includes both biblical quotes and an overview from Talmud) I have to admit though to being one of those not always so good at guarding my tongue as I should - though I do try to not be baseless where possible. Though for the times I have failed I offer my sincere and real apologies to any that may have been effected and to the community as a whole. Best Melanie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/65e64618/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Mon Aug 3 19:22:05 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:22:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! In-Reply-To: <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> Message-ID: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. :-) Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story ?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/e93f487f/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 3 20:25:50 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 18:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Death and Life are in the Power of the Tongue Message-ID: <422153.1609.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ... and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. Proverbs 18:21 ? I have purposefully?sent mostly Scriptures in the past because I felt that my opinion tacked onto them?would somehow diminish them. Ross has helped me to see that my perspective on those scriptures is important to perhaps help someone see them from a new and different perspective. With that in mind, I offer my take on the above reference. Eat we shall, but what we shall eat is a decision we make. It will either be death or life. ? In the context of what has transpired on this list, I offer this connection. We have in this list a unique opportunity to see The Kingdom of YHVH advanced in ways that we can scarcely dream of... and at the same time, it can merely be one more e-mail list. We have the power to choose which it will be. Let us choose life.... ? In deep respect and love of the bethren, ? Glenn ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090803/c8d476d4/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Aug 4 06:24:41 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:24:41 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Blessed Message-ID: I too feel I haven't guarded my tongue as well as I should have done and I know how much I have much to learn. I truly rejoice to be part of this family. My heart goes out to you all in prayer each day, and I think for us all, the journey is too important to let grievances stop our walk. You are all my family and to unite with you is where my heart truly yearns. _________________________________________________________________ What goes online, stays online Check the daily blob for the latest on what's happening around the web http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/fc2038e7/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Tue Aug 4 09:53:34 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:53:34 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook><064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC><112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook><855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <881D0A6D72CE4EABAADFAAD1D096DBB6@davesbook> James, hopefully it is just a matter of time that this list can settle. Job 14:7.... For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Meaningful dialogue comes about by each of us, simply explaining what we 'see' and considering what others 'see' THEN using this information we can build accurately. dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols I regret that my point about the differences between a public forum and a more intimate list more appropriate for personal exchanges seems to have been missed here, even though I have written about it with as much clarity as I am capable two or three times in the past week to ten days. It is the main reason this whole discussion came up, not because someone needed "censoring." I also don't follow the point about a lot of bitterness? Why would someone feel bitter and against whom? Surely not Ross? James ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/0090c35f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 4 10:37:45 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 11:37:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross Nichols In-Reply-To: <881D0A6D72CE4EABAADFAAD1D096DBB6@davesbook> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook><064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC><112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook><855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com> <4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> <881D0A6D72CE4EABAADFAAD1D096DBB6@davesbook> Message-ID: <0F80B942-810C-44A8-8A23-81E15F411565@earthlink.net> I totally agree and in my view the Dialogue list is far from "cut down," but indeed is ready to surge beyond any of our imaginations because we have been able to clarify its original purpose while also providing through both the SWW and the new "Living Room" list, other needs as well. Just imagine, and I know you, John, Glenn, Levi, and others have, of an e-mail discussion group that truly explored the deep issues of the Torah faith movement without dogma or preconceptions, and with respect! There is nothing like this on the planet. It is truly awesome to contemplate. James On Aug 4, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Dave Cole wrote: > James, hopefully it is just a matter of time that this list can > settle. > > Job 14:7.... For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that > it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not > cease. > > Meaningful dialogue comes about by each of us, simply explaining > what we 'see' and considering what others 'see' THEN using this > information we can build accurately. > > > dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Tabor > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 11:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Dialogue List - and Important Note from Ross > Nichols > > I regret that my point about the differences between a public forum > and a more intimate list more appropriate for personal exchanges > seems to have been missed here, even though I have written about it > with as much clarity as I am capable two or three times in the past > week to ten days. It is the main reason this whole discussion came > up, not because someone needed "censoring." I also don't follow the > point about a lot of bitterness? Why would someone feel bitter and > against whom? Surely not Ross? > > James > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/8c50c70c/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 4 12:45:49 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 13:45:49 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net> <028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> Message-ID: <7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: > > > Dr. Tabor, > > Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. > Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay > awake for his sermon. J > > Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you > about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as > to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know > there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the > original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a > truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and > was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might > find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I > guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and > your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in > the Aramaic text debate. > > We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text > was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show > the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very > interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. > I first thought when the news of this text came out ??. This text > is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I > have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at > your day job. Any thoughts. > > Marvin > > From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > ] On Behalf Of Patty > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! > > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss > From the Los Angeles Times > 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem > The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is > 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able > to decipher it. > By Thomas H. Maugh II > > August 1, 2009 > > U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old > limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script > near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. > > Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited > by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line > of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the > University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along > with James Tabor of the same school. > > "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing > the find Wednesday. > > Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he > said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text > is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately > cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or > Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used > it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to > understand its meaning. > > The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim > national park since June 14. > > The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of > Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli > archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription > from the 13th century. > > The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from > the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by > King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended > with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. > > >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing > complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well- > preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three > bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and > his troops sacked the city. > > This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the > discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red > argaman dye used on priestly garments. > > On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the > remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly > after its destruction. > > They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the > Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of > about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a > street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. > > thomas.maugh at latimes.com > > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/e8c482e1/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 4 13:43:00 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 14:43:00 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> <7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. J Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ??. This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/b1544cde/attachment.html From rndavar at aol.com Tue Aug 4 20:25:57 2009 From: rndavar at aol.com (rndavar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Ross has recommended that you check out a podcast on iTunes Message-ID: <6738418.1249435557515.JavaMail.worun@mailerp0102> Most of you already have the link to my weekly teaching at itunes, but just in case - check it out. Shalom Roots of Faith http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=211852193 Release Date: Aug 02, 2009 Genre: Judaism (C) ?Roots of Faith - Ross Nichols Download iTunes at http://www.apple.com/itunes/download/ iTunes for Mac and Windows This message was sent to dialogue at rootsoffaith.org. Please note that you have not been added to any email lists. Copyright (C) 2009 Apple Inc. All rights reserved http://www.apple.com/legal/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/6ae16923/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 22:32:40 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <134300.84114.qm@web112405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I wholeheartedly agree with what you said here Pat. It wasn't until I started looking into the deeper Hebraic concepts and even Kabbalistic thought that I even understood a fourth of what the true Jesus was saying let alone Paul. ? Susie --- On Tue, 8/4/09, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 11:43 AM It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew.? I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth.? It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi,?from the reality?of his?life.??The more?he is distanced from his Hebrew roots,?the easier it?becomes? to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an?anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. ? In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English.? It is just a second language?with which?many are at least somewhat conversant. ? Just my thoughts, ? Pat????? From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging?topic?in?the?field?of?Christian?Origins.?For?years?the?consensus?among?the?scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out ?know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular?down?into?the?2nd?century?CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: ? ? Dr. Tabor, ? Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher.? You stay awake for his sermon.?J?? ? Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text.??? As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition.? I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering ?if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community.? I guess, I asking for the most current opinions.? This article and your first report on the? Mt.? Zion?dig ?has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. ? We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together.? Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ??.? This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. ???I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at ?your day job.?? Any thoughts. ? Marvin ? From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?Patty? Sent:?Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?[Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! ? http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >From the? Los Angeles?Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in? Old? City?of? Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S.?archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the? University?of? North Carolina?at? Charlotte , who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the? Mount of Olives , had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the? Temple?-- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the? Old? City?by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby? Church?of? St. Mary . thomas.maugh at latimes.com ? ?_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/0fe31145/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 22:37:32 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings Message-ID: <160515.57449.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Would you say that Shual or Paul of the NT was a Rabbi? Would his letters to the congregations printed in the NT be considered Rabbinic Drash? ? Susie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/1709b2fd/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Aug 4 23:12:51 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:12:51 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com><7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. :-) Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. :-) Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story ?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/342bb364/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Tue Aug 4 23:59:45 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 00:59:45 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com><7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> Message-ID: Thanks, Marvin! I don't know much about Aramaic, and obviously you do. I have just always thought that Hebrew would be the language used by Torah observant Jews throughout the ages. Had not thought of Aramaic in the Tanack and Talmud. (Just assumed that services at Synagogue are all Hebrew. Guess when I've seen Aramaic, I didn't even realize it wasn't Hebrew.) I very much appreciate your setting the record straight. I want to learn and I'm so thankful that we have people like you on this Dialogue! We can and will get to the bottom line, sifting out the lies that have overlaid our faith in HaShem. Evidently Aramaic, or the lack thereof, is NOT one of the problems relating to our Return to Torah Faith. - Sorry for the confusion on my part!!!! Shalom, Pat From: Marvin Hyde Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 12:12 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. J Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/32607e90/attachment.html From goodears at jps.net Wed Aug 5 01:22:08 2009 From: goodears at jps.net (Ron Runyon) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 23:22:08 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> Message-ID: I have also dug into this subject and found a good book on it. I have loaned it out but as I remember it was titled Ruach Quadim or something close to this spelling. The Author was A.G.Roth. In the book the author sets forth many examples of Semitic language as the source of the NT writings and shows how the Greek must be a translation coming later. Shalom, Ron Runyon _____ From: Marvin Hyde [mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. :-) Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. :-) Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story ?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090804/4b8ecdc7/attachment.html From cormary at mts.net Wed Aug 5 07:13:11 2009 From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 07:13:11 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com><7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> Message-ID: <4A797757.8090305@mts.net> Hi Marvin I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about it when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the virgin birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I will quote the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it out for yourself if you have a copy of it: / Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass when his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to death. He rather wished to conceal her. 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he will save my people from their sins. 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and you will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us./ The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about was, the virgin birth. And in verse 22 /All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: /So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture as proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? / /If I have it right, verse 22 refers to /Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel./ (KJV) What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus? So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was to be born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in verse 16 we read as follows: /Issa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her king./ (KJV) If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, was that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I know that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child in the Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV ) /Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. //(KJV) /As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we read: /Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. /According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding the virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. Cornie Marvin Hyde wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have > the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look > at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good > book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J > > > > Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the > questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to > the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able > to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book > , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in > the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. > > > > - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK > and DSS). > > - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. > > - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the > late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. > > - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in > the LXX. I would guess not. > > - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with > Hebrew. > > - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. > > - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text > of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written > in Greek. > > Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be > added to the list that I don't know. > > > > My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably > written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in > parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as > later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic > text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. > > > > Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and > groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the > greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. > > > > So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text > that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple > period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature..... > > > > In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and > many different opinions. > > > > Shalom, > > marvin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Pat Robbins > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew > > > > It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew > slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls > were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main > language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov > Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah > Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove > the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple > era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of > his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier > it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the > Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel > and governs the people under G-d's rule. > > > > In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find > Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does > not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second > language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. > > > > Just my thoughts, > > > > Pat > > > > *From:* James Tabor > > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew > > > > This is really a big and > emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars > was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in > late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the > period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback > to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" > background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would > have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. > The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the > case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful > background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most > scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the > Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the > "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If > you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses > all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. > > > > As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary > inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar > Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a > vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still > debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, /Jewish > Literacy in Roman Palestine/. You can read some relevant portions of > it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that > Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as > one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, > other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. > > > > Hope this helps a bit... > > > > James > > > > > > On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tabor, > > > > Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. > Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay > awake for his sermon. J > > > > Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about > the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their > value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some > people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text > in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I > have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you > could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this > subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most > current opinions. This article and your first report on > the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. > > > > We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was > being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the > Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if > it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought > when the news of this text came out ....... This text is gonna be of > interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched > your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any > thoughts. > > > > Marvin > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org > > [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Patty > *Sent:* Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! > > > > http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss > > /From the Los Angeles Times/ > > > *2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem* > > *The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is > 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able > to decipher it.* > > By Thomas H. Maugh II > > August 1, 2009 > > U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old > limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near > the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. > > Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited > by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line > of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of > the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along > with James Tabor of the same school. > > "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the > find Wednesday. > > Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he > said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is > in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. > They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, > indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in > rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand > its meaning. > > The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national > park since June 14. > > The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of > Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli > archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from > the 13th century. > > The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from > the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King > Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with > the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. > > >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex > with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved > vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens > dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops > sacked the city. > > This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the > discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red > argaman dye used on priestly garments. > > On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains > of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its > destruction. > > They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the > Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of > about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a > street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. > > thomas.maugh at latimes.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.43/2281 - Release Date: 08/04/09 05:57:00 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/2285a184/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:05:55 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:05:55 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Future Leaders of Israel? Message-ID: <855590370908050605q57fce651v8b812950475f6246@mail.gmail.com> I can't believe these boys just graduated 12th Grade....May HaShem bless and guide them, and give them the strength and courage they'll need. I am BEYOND impressed....they're not like religious Jewish boys in Galut (the Exile)....THIS is Living the Torah! * Hanoch* * "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition"* * Monty Python* Published: 08/05/09, 10:53 AM Or Eztion: Graduating High School by Jumping from a Plane by IsraelNN TV Follow Israel news on [image: Twitter] and [image: Facebook] . (IsraelNN.com) Students at the Or Etzion Religious Military Academy for Commanders attend their classes in grades 9 to 12 at the Or Etzion Yeshiva high school parallel to military exercises and basic training. Israel National News Television's Yoni Kempinski joined the 12th grade graduates as they completed their studies by parachuting from an Israel Air Force plane. *Email readers, please **click here* * to watch the video report.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/1dcb3731/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:07:28 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:07:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Ron. I found the book on Amazon. It's RUACH QADIM: ARAMAIC ORIGINS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT by Andrew Grariel Roth. I too believe that Greek must be a translation coming later. Salvation is of the Jews, and the Jews speak Hebrew - with a little Aramaic thrown in!!!! : ) I would most definitely find myself disagreeing with Roth however, especially on salvation coming through a man, and not through G-d alone. I read a couple of reviews, and excerpts from his book on Amazon, and from what I can glean, Roth believes in the divinity of a man. Because the Hebrew Bible specifically refutes that idea, and has multiple verses saying that only through faith in our Father are we brought into a right relationship with Him, I had to repent of having worshipped a man as G-d for so many years. It was a very difficult thing to do and I grieved over the loss of my god-man for a long time, but finally came out on the other side loving, focusing upon and worshipping the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - and none other. I have only the greatest respect for the Rabbi from Galilee, whom we call Jesus or Yeshua, but I truly believe that his message and even the truth of his very existence were stolen from him and he was re-interpreted as a Greek god, instead of the Hebrew Torah giant he truly was. I very much appreciate this opportunity to dialogue with you, and it is the desire of my heart that as we walk along this Ancient Path home to our Father, that we will be able to search His Word together and find His Truth, while rejecting any and all politically inspired doctrines of men, fed to our fathers so long ago. If I have misunderstood the gist of Mr. Roth's book, I'm sorry, and will welcome correction. My love to you, fellow sojourner, Pat From: Ron Runyon Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew I have also dug into this subject and found a good book on it. I have loaned it out but as I remember it was titled Ruach Quadim or something close to this spelling. The Author was A.G.Roth. In the book the author sets forth many examples of Semitic language as the source of the NT writings and shows how the Greek must be a translation coming later. Shalom, Ron Runyon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marvin Hyde [mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. J Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/8b33cd40/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:54:14 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:54:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings In-Reply-To: <160515.57449.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <160515.57449.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was hoping that someone else would jump in here, Susie. I know that Tracy Osborne has some very interesting and positive observations on Paul. My own have become less enthusiastic over the years. I finally have had to come to the conclusion that some of his writings have caused untold misery to many Jews, perpetrated by avid Paul followers over the past 2,000 years. For this reason, I can no longer energetically endorse his writings, though many things he said were truly wonderful. Love to you, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings Would you say that Shual or Paul of the NT was a Rabbi? Would his letters to the congregations printed in the NT be considered Rabbinic Drash? Susie -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/d90e9e1a/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Aug 5 10:41:43 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:41:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <4A797757.8090305@mts.net> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com><7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> <3AA444983F0D470ABBABB10754645E17@TESTPC> <4A797757.8090305@mts.net> Message-ID: <5C85543C-7CB7-46FF-99B1-FCACDE767228@earthlink.net> All our copies of Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew do in fact have the first chapter of Matthew with the "virgin birth." However, we are told in several ancient sources that the original copy of Matthew written in Hebrew, used and preserved by the Ebionites up through the 4th century, did not have this chapter. What this indicates is that the version we have via Shem Tov, even though very useful in many ways, is still coming to us in a manuscript from the 14th century and it is not wholly uninfluenced by the Greek. There is a good discussion on Hebrew Matthew on the Synagogue without Walls if you want to pick up on much more. Ross is posting some good things, I have jumped in a bit, and Nehemia Gordon is part of the group and when he has time plans to post some things--so stay tuned, see: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/hebrewgospels James On Aug 5, 2009, at 8:13 AM, Cornie Reimer wrote: > Hi Marvin > I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the > left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about it > when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the virgin > birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I will quote > the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it out for > yourself if you have a copy of it: > > Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass when > his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she was > found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. > 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her > nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to > death. He rather wished to conceal her. > 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel > appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not > fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy > Spirit. > 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he > will save my people from their sins. > 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet > according to the Lord: > 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and you > will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us. > > The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about > was, the virgin birth. And in verse 22 All this was to complete > what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: > So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture as > proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? > > If I have it right, verse 22 refers to Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the > Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, > and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV) > > What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the > virgin birth of Jesus? > > So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its > original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is the > child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was to be > born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in verse 16 > we read as follows: Issa 7:16 For before the child shall know to > refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest > shall be forsaken of both her king. (KJV) > > If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be > born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child > prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, was > that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I know > that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child in the > Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV ) Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord > himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and > bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV) > > As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin > birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we > read: Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden > will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. > > According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as the > Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding the > virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. > > Cornie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marvin Hyde wrote: >> >> >> >> Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do >> have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since >> I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a >> good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J >> >> Pat, I?m not really sure I know where I?m coming from in the >> questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up >> to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been >> able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering >> the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, >> but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is >> what we know. >> >> - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK >> and DSS). >> - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. >> - We know there are passage?s in Daniel in Aramaic. In the >> late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something >> else. >> - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in >> the LXX. I would guess not. >> - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud?s. Mixed >> with Hebrew. >> - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. >> - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic >> text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one >> written in Greek. >> Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could >> be added to the list that I don?t know. >> >> My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably >> written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before >> in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later >> maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then >> maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what >> was going on back then. >> >> Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people >> and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old >> as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, >> so to speak. >> >> So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a >> text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second >> temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his >> signature?.. >> >> In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and >> many different opinions. >> >> Shalom, >> marvin >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew >> >> It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew >> slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea >> Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the >> people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the >> Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu >> Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just >> seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish >> people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah >> observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is >> distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him >> as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an >> anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the >> people under G-d's rule. >> >> In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find >> Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that >> does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a >> second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. >> >> Just my thoughts, >> >> Pat >> >> From: James Tabor >> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew >> >> This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian >> Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew >> was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd >> Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, >> with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to >> the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" >> background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we >> would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on >> the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in >> point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up >> some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the >> N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are >> derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that >> sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different >> in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well >> worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the >> introduction and appendices. >> >> As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary >> inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by >> Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into >> the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and >> forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman >> Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google >> books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew >> was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one >> moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, >> other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. >> >> Hope this helps a bit... >> >> James >> >> >> On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Tabor, >> >> Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. >> Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay >> awake for his sermon. J >> >> Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you >> about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as >> to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know >> there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the >> original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a >> truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and >> was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might >> find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I >> guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and >> your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in >> the Aramaic text debate. >> >> We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text >> was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show >> the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very >> interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. >> I first thought when the news of this text came out ??. This text >> is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I >> have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at >> your day job. Any thoughts. >> >> Marvin >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of Patty >> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! >> >> http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >> From the Los Angeles Times >> 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem >> The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is >> 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet >> able to decipher it. >> By Thomas H. Maugh II >> >> August 1, 2009 >> >> U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old >> limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script >> near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. >> >> Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were >> inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a >> single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon >> Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led >> the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. >> >> "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing >> the find Wednesday. >> >> Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he >> said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text >> is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately >> cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or >> Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who >> used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to >> understand its meaning. >> >> The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim >> national park since June 14. >> >> The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount >> of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli >> archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription >> from the 13th century. >> >> The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from >> the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by >> King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which >> ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >> >> >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing >> complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well- >> preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three >> bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and >> his troops sacked the city. >> >> This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the >> discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red >> argaman dye used on priestly garments. >> >> On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the >> remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site >> shortly after its destruction. >> >> They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from >> the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height >> of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex >> or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. >> >> thomas.maugh at latimes.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.43/2281 - Release Date: >> 08/04/09 05:57:00 >> >> > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/c6adf770/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Wed Aug 5 10:09:27 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:09:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] psalm 147 In-Reply-To: <12d61b4d0907262054x5ef6478dycf617e356f4d2590@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d61b4d0907262054x5ef6478dycf617e356f4d2590@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Beautiful, Jae! Thank you so much for reminding us that our G-d is above all! He is Creator of all, and his Power is without limit! Can't believe I'm just now getting to your terrific post. It gave me such a lift to read your words here relating to Psalm 147. What a wonderful and uplifting Word to be reminded that: "He that keepeth Israel does not slumber or sleep." Baruch HaShem! Please keep them coming, Jae! In what part of TX are you? Shalom, Pat From: Jae Dakota Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 11:54 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] psalm 147 I liked this too much, not to share. Various translations all have their strong points Psalm 147:4 He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Science has it's theories about the Universe, but G-d alone Determines the Number of the stars as well as calling each of them by name.... I contrast that to man who has no ability to even make a star, much less determine the number of them, or to call them Each by name.... vs 5 Great is our L-rd and MIGHTY in power His Understanding has NO Limit Can we even begin to imagine the intellect and wisdom in determining the number of the stars in existence... I rejoice that He that keepeth Israel does not slumber, or sleep. Stephen / Texas -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/b935b069/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Aug 5 14:07:17 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:07:17 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: <652768.37829.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <652768.37829.qm@web30406.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1C8AF449-4617-45EB-A804-8DE55873FD02@earthlink.net> Betty, I am sorry but I just have not been able to get back to this and I also fear it might be too complex to discuss via e-mail. What I would say in general is that there seem to be enough texts in the Hebrew Bible (and I restrict myself to that body of writings) to indicate a class of "beings," not humans, who are called the "b'nai 'Elohim." They would be very much along the lines of those referred to elsewhere as the mal'akim, but there is indication that they participate in some type of "council" of Elohim, with the Most High, whom we know as Yehovah...I am thinking here mainly of Psalm 82 and related texts. In terms of the variant texts, since the DSS copies of Deuteronomy do indeed agree with the LXX on the "b'nai 'Elohim" readings in Deut 32 I am inclined to go with those and see the MT as more of an interpretation. I realize this view of the MT is not shared by lots of people who take a more fundamentalist approach but I gave up my own textual fundamentalism years ago. That said, and as interesting as these things are, those "secret things" that belong to YHVH--this text is clear and has NO variants: "And now O Israel, what does YHVH your 'Elohim require of you, but to hold in awe YHVH your 'Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love him, to serve YHVH your 'Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut 10:12) Take care, James On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: > James, > I am reading the information on the sons of Elohim, sons of gods and > you said you agreed with some of the information and disagreed with > some of it. Could you say which parts you disagreed with? This is > all confusing to me and when you add in the different translations, > I am over my head. I trust your judgment and know you have a vast > amount of knowledge to draw from. Thanks. > Betty Eddy > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/24/09, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM > > On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire > chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, > "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative Plural) > is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual cycle of > readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, as some > translations show. The text is a Song, referred to subsequently as > the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under inspiration to > the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic future of the > mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite people. One > important thing to remember in reading this passage is that it is > not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after the > Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of Judah, but > it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is read in that > regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a much different > light. These are among the last recorded words of Moses. > > The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as God > of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the "father > that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the ancient > name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in speaking > of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19). > > Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in our > various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and preserved by > Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic text (MT). > There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back to 200 BCE, > in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more recently, > there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have survived as > part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is most > interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy differ in > some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional text, and its > readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. These variations > have to do with the use of the term "sons of Elohim" or in Hebrew, > the b'nai 'Elohim. > > These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, > since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT (Masoretic) > text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew text is > understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect. However, > when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy agreed > with the Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have been given > much more attention and weight. Slowly the scholars have begun to > have more and more respect for the LXX. By and large it is a very > literal translation, and there is now every indication that the > translators were in fact translating a Hebrew original that is > different from the MT--however, one values it. In other words, they > were not just adding things and being sloppy with their translation > work. Often the differences are not so important, when we compare > the Qumran Hebrew Bible with the MT, but in this case these variants > seem quite significant. Of course the Qumran copies are older than > the MT by more than a thousand years, so the discovery of these most > ancient of Hebrew texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the > scholars and traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist > Christianity). Here are the differences, which I have put in Italics: > > MT (Masoretic text) reads: > Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their > inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders > of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. > > LXX (Greek) reads: > Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he > separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations > according to the number of the angels of God. > > Qumran/DSS reads: > Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their > inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds > of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim. > > Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" > passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the > Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters > of Adam" are mentioned. > > But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of > the Song. > > MT reads: > Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He > doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to > His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people. > > LXX (Greek) reads: > Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the > angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and > let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will > avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and > recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate > him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. > > Qumran/DSS reads: > Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you > sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will > render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate > him, and will atone for the land of his people. > > As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees > with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim." > > The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of > the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin. > > The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of > the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one > way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One > interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the > other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, > from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no > doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, > speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of > Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite > misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is > simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the > context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of > Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of > whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not > He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the clear > reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly seems to > be a reference to so-called "angels." > > If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be > different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" would > in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of > Israel" or Jacob, his grandson. > > There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the > mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole concept > of the "hiding of the Face" of God. > > Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these textual > variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX (Septuagint), > but also in various versions of the MT, would affect something like > the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My own view is > that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that are visible on > a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid and hard to > deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to be much > affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled out at 50 > letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. The ones I > would question are those found separated by multiple pages, > hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I think those have been > shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they end up being more like > "fortune telling" than anything else. That is my view, having > followed this rather closely some years back when Drosnin hit the > scene. > > > > Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom! > > James Tabor > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/c380c240/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 15:34:18 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 13:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <4A797757.8090305@mts.net> Message-ID: <506844.69528.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Cornie,?I'd like to?comment, ? According to my Orthodox Rabbi, the Nazarean Codicil?(new testament) was written by Orthodox?Sages according to Orthodox hermeneutical principles?and must be interpreted accordingly. One can see them here as presented by his Talmid: http://www.betemunah.org/rules.html These are?the rules of PaRDeS: Pashat - Mark?- The 7 rules of Hillel Remez - Luke - The 13 rules of Ishmael Drash - Matthew - The 32 rules of Ben Gallil Sod - John - The 42 rules of Zohar ? In my own studies, I found that a prophecy can have an: actual fulfillment and?a parallel fulfillment. ? The Actual Fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7 was fulfilled in Isaiah 8. And then, Isaiah 9 foresees another?future fulfilment, that in some way, ties the ideas of Isaiah 7 &?8 to them.? A Parallel Fulfillment of Isaiah 7 is recorded in Matthew - not?it's Actual Fulfillment. In a parallel fulfillment, one is presenting a similar situation that is brought to mind by the quotation. So, the quotation from Isaiah 7, was not meant to be understood in the way that Catholics twisted it into. It was meant to be understood according to the rules that govern Drash interpretation (Midrash). One does well to look for the original Hebew words, thoughts, and stories?from the Tanach that are being hinted at?with the use of words and phrases.? ? With the specific issue of the translation of "virgin" in Matthew, if one plugs in the Hebrew word "almah", which is used by Isaiah, along with?the context of it's use in Isaiah 7 and 8, one will find that it means a young married maiden. In fact, the context shows that the "almah" in Isaiah 7 was Isaiah's young wife. Isaiah "knew" his wife, the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son, and it was a "sign" that ImmanuEl - El is with us. ? So, what the?"sign" shows was?that in the Genealogy in Matthew, Yacob gave birth to?a Tsadik named Yosef (sound familiar?), who "knew" his?barren wife (his almah")?following?her angelic visitation,?and she conceived. According to Luke, she then went to visit her Kohenim family (Elizabeth) who, ALSO, had been barren.?(In the Remez of Luke,?we have??a?hint ?here with the word ALSO, that Maryam had been barren herself!! That was her real complaint to the Angel Gabriel). After 3 months, she returned to HER HOME, to her husband,?with child (although they had not set up house together yet), the pregnancy was in the spirit of holiness - that is, it was legitimate according to halakha). ? ? Notice also in the Genealogy of Matthew 1?- the women that are mentioned are placed there ON PURPOSE to prompt one's mind to the remember their particular odd circumstances, which?gave?fueled opponents?to raise doubts as to the legitimacy of their children. Remember the circumstances of: ? Tamar - Was Paretz legitimate? Absolutely! Rahab - Was Boaz legitimate? Absolutely! Bathsheba - Was Solomon legitimate? Absolutely! Maryam - Was Yeshua legitimate? Absolutely! ? That, which was originally actually miraculous conception, a healing of barrenness, was twisted into a virgin conception by Rome. ? Cornie, I hope I?this isn't too?confusing?and I hope it helps. I think?maybe I don't write so well...Maybe I should stick to just singing!?Nevertheless, I have a book on this on my website. ? Shalom U' Brachot, Tracy ? ? --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:13 AM Hi Marvin I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about it when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the virgin birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I will quote the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it out for yourself if you have a copy of it: Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass when his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to death. He rather wished to conceal her. 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he will save my people from their sins. 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and you will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us. The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about was, the virgin birth. And in verse? 22 All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture as proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? If I have it right, verse 22 refers to Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.? (KJV) What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus? So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was to be born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in verse 16 we read as follows: Issa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her king. (KJV) If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, was that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I know that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child in the Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV )? Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.? (KJV) As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we read: Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding the virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. Cornie ? Marvin Hyde wrote: ? ? Thanks Dr. Tabor.? I will look at the material suggested.? I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by ?G. Howard.? It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again.? It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J?? ? Pat,? I?m not really sure I know where I?m coming from in the questions to JT.? Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions.? At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought ?about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand.? Here is what we know. ? -????????? Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). -????????? We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. -????????? We know there are passage?s in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. -????????? I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. -????????? We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud?s. Mixed with Hebrew. -????????? We know Aramaic ?is a sister language to Hebrew. -????????? And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. ?Am I batting 7 for 7.?? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don?t know. ? My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce.?? If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. ? Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. ? So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period.? Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature?.. ? In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. ? Shalom, marvin From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew ? It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew.? I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth.? It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi,?from the reality?of his?life.??The more?he is distanced from his Hebrew roots,?the easier it?becomes? to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an?anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. ? In the USA , many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English.? It is just a second language?with which?many are at least somewhat conversant. ? Just my thoughts, ? Pat????? ? From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew ? This is really a big and emerging?topic?in?the?field?of?Christian?Origins.?For?years?the?consensus?among?the?scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. ? As it turns out ?know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular?down?into?the?2nd?century?CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in " Palestine " until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple . ? Hope this helps a bit... ? James ? ? On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: ? ? Dr. Tabor, ? Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher.? You stay awake for his sermon.?J?? ? Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text.??? As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition.? I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering ?if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community.? I guess, I asking for the most current opinions.? This article and your first report on the? Mt.? Zion?dig ?has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. ? We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together.? Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ??.? This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. ???I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at ?your day job.?? Any thoughts. ? Marvin ? From:?dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org]?On Behalf Of?Patty? Sent:?Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To:?dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject:?[Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! ? http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >From the? Los Angeles?Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in? Old? City?of? Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S.?archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the? University?of? North Carolina?at? Charlotte , who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the? Mount of Olives , had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the? Temple?-- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the? Old? City?by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby? Church?of? St. Mary . thomas.maugh at latimes.com ? ? _______________________________________________ ? _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.43/2281 - Release Date: 08/04/09 05:57:00 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/05e55f81/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 21:50:57 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: <1C8AF449-4617-45EB-A804-8DE55873FD02@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <574874.19174.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> James, Thanks for the reply. I am inclined to agree that there were "gods" or whatever they were over certain nations. The article also answers the question I have had about the giants surviving the flood. Apparently, they didn't. They merely were born after the flood as well as before. I listen to Coast to Coast and there are always people talking about aliens that came down to earth that were misunderstood as gods. I wonder it there could be any connection. People twist things around to be something they can believe. It's difficult for me to know where the lines are. Gods over nations might explain what is going on today. I asked a question of the dialogue some time back about why Christians continue to believe as they do. I meant it seriously. The response was that I was being "not nice". Bottom line, are their eyes blinded, are they not interested in the real truth, do they merely follow the crowd? Are the lies taught to so many people in seminary that they can't see the truth? I did. Why can't they? My son-in-law believes that Israel is merely another country, nothing special. There was a time when my daughter didn't have a Christmas tree. He also said that he believed the Bible, no matter what it said, even when he didn't understand it. I tend to question everything. Someone on the dialogue said that he/she asked God for His truth, not man's truth. This was the beginning of their journey to where they were now. The thing is that this is the same prayer I had and God took me where I am today. I guess I want to understand what to pray for my son-in-law. I pray now that God would turn his heart to see the truth, but I had a legitimate question. Thanks for listening. Take care. Betty --- On Wed, 8/5/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 2:07 PM Betty, I am sorry but I just have not been able to get back to this and I also fear it might be too complex to discuss via e-mail. What I would say in general is that there seem to be enough texts in the Hebrew Bible (and I restrict myself to that body of writings) to indicate a class of "beings," not humans, who are called the "b'nai 'Elohim." They would be very much along the lines of those referred to elsewhere as the mal'akim, but there is indication that they participate in some type of "council" of Elohim, with the Most High, whom we know as Yehovah...I am thinking here mainly of Psalm 82 and related texts. In terms of the variant texts, since the DSS copies of Deuteronomy do indeed agree with the LXX on the "b'nai 'Elohim" readings in Deut 32 I am inclined to go with those and see the MT as more of an interpretation. I realize this view of the MT is not shared by lots of people who take a more fundamentalist approach but I gave up my own textual fundamentalism years ago. That said, and as interesting as these things are, those "secret things" that belong to YHVH--this text is clear and has NO variants: "And now O Israel, what does YHVH your 'Elohim require of you, but to hold in awe YHVH your 'Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love him, to serve YHVH your 'Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut 10:12)Take care, James On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: James, I am reading the information on the sons of Elohim, sons of gods and you said you agreed with some of the information and disagreed with some of it. Could you say which parts you disagreed with? This is all confusing to me and when you add in the different translations, I am over my head. I trust your judgment and know you have a vast amount of knowledge to draw from. Thanks. Betty Eddy --- On Fri, 7/24/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative Plural) is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual cycle of readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, as some translations show. The text is a Song, referred to subsequently as the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under inspiration to the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic future of the mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite people. One important thing to remember in reading this passage is that it is not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a much different light. These are among the last recorded words of Moses. The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as God of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the "father that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the ancient name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in speaking of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19). Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in our various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and preserved by Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic text (MT). There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back to 200 BCE, in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more recently, there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have survived as part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is most interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy differ in some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional text, and its readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. These variations have to do with the use of the term "sons of Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim. These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT (Masoretic) text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew text is understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect.? However, when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy agreed with the Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have been given much more attention and weight.? Slowly the scholars have begun to have more and more respect for the LXX.? By and large it is a very literal translation, and there is now every indication that the translators were in fact translating a Hebrew original that is different from the MT--however, one values it.? In other words, they were not just adding things and being sloppy with their translation work.? Often the differences are not so important, when we compare the Qumran Hebrew Bible with the MT, but in this case these variants seem quite significant.? Of course the Qumran copies are older than the MT by more than a thousand years, so the discovery of these most ancient of Hebrew texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the scholars and traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist Christianity).? Here are the differences, which I have put in Italics: MT (Masoretic text) reads:Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. LXX (Greek) reads:Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. Qumran/DSS reads:Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim. Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters of Adam" are mentioned. But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of the Song.?? MT reads:Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people. LXX (Greek) reads:Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. Qumran/DSS reads:Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and will atone for the land of his people. As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim." The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin. The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the clear reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly seems to be a reference to so-called "angels." If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" would in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of Israel" or Jacob, his grandson. There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole concept of the "hiding of the Face" of God. Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these textual variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX (Septuagint), but also in various versions of the MT, would affect something like the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My own view is that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that are visible on a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid and hard to deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to be much affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled out at 50 letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. The ones I would question are those found separated by multiple pages, hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I think those have been shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they end up being more like "fortune telling" than anything else. That is my view, having followed this rather closely some years back when Drosnin hit the scene. Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom! James Tabor -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090805/3465aa3c/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Thu Aug 6 06:01:32 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:01:32 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim Message-ID: This is a fascinating subject, and one for which I'm trying to peace all sorts of thoughts together. But the other point you mention Betty - about praying for God's truth. This is something I also relate to. I remember before the start of this journey praying almost in tears each night to know the truth - not man's, but God's. I wonder if this is something we all have in common on this list? I'd love to hear other stories. I also have people I love dearly who don't believe and it really breaks my heart. I pray every night for these people - I honestly believe that God hears our please on behalf of others, even those that don't know him. So be encouraged to keep praying for your son in law. I think it's the most powerful thing we can do in these circumstances. xx _________________________________________________________________ What goes online, stays online Check the daily blob for the latest on what's happening around the web http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/216f3428/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 6 10:09:36 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:09:36 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: <574874.19174.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <574874.19174.qm@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One thing to keep in mind in all of this is that words in English that tend to have very static meanings, such as "God" or "gods," and "angel" in Hebrew are much more generic. Thus 'el or 'elohim really means "power" or "powers," and as I think you know, can even refer to human beings, judges, rulers, and the like. The same with "angels," the word is mal'ak, and has not "heavenly" connotation as in English, but means simply "messenger" or "envoy," and thus carries the notion of representation, not that of an entity or essence of a certain being. One way then of thinking of this is in terms of our English word "force." We know there are four "physical" forces that can be identified by physicists: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear force. If we go beyond our atomically configured world, detectable via our sense and instruments, the concept of 'elohim or even "the" 'elohim touches upon other "forces," or realities, some of which are spoken of in the Tanakh as "personal," thus the "satan" among the "b'nai 'elohim" in the early chapters of Job, etc. Calling Yehovah 'elohim, in the plural, with a singular subject, is like saying the "force of all forces..." Thus Genesis 1:1: "When the Force of all forces began to shape/form the heavens and the earth, the earth was a desolate, empty wasteland...This Force of all forces is otherwise known as 'El Elyon--thus "Force Most High..." and the name given to Moshe is YeHoVaH, which means: Will/Is/Was... Your other topic I will save for another time but it does interest me... Hope that helps! James On Aug 5, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: > James, > Thanks for the reply. I am inclined to agree that there were "gods" > or whatever they were over certain nations. The article also answers > the question I have had about the giants surviving the flood. > Apparently, they didn't. They merely were born after the flood as > well as before. I listen to Coast to Coast and there are always > people talking about aliens that came down to earth that were > misunderstood as gods. I wonder it there could be any connection. > People twist things around to be something they can believe. It's > difficult for me to know where the lines are. Gods over nations > might explain what is going on today. > > I asked a question of the dialogue some time back about why > Christians continue to believe as they do. I meant it seriously. The > response was that I was being "not nice". Bottom line, are their > eyes blinded, are they not interested in the real truth, do they > merely follow the crowd? Are the lies taught to so many people in > seminary that they can't see the truth? I did. Why can't they? My > son-in-law believes that Israel is merely another country, nothing > special. There was a time when my daughter didn't have a Christmas > tree. He also said that he believed the Bible, no matter what it > said, even when he didn't understand it. I tend to question > everything. > > Someone on the dialogue said that he/she asked God for His truth, > not man's truth. This was the beginning of their journey to where > they were now. The thing is that this is the same prayer I had and > God took me where I am today. I guess I want to understand what to > pray for my son-in-law. I pray now that God would turn his heart to > see the truth, but I had a legitimate question. > > Thanks for listening. Take care. > Betty > > > > > --- On Wed, 8/5/09, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 2:07 PM > > Betty, I am sorry but I just have not been able to get back to this > and I also fear it might be too complex to discuss via e-mail. What > I would say in general is that there seem to be enough texts in the > Hebrew Bible (and I restrict myself to that body of writings) to > indicate a class of "beings," not humans, who are called the "b'nai > 'Elohim." They would be very much along the lines of those referred > to elsewhere as the mal'akim, but there is indication that they > participate in some type of "council" of Elohim, with the Most High, > whom we know as Yehovah...I am thinking here mainly of Psalm 82 and > related texts. > > In terms of the variant texts, since the DSS copies of Deuteronomy > do indeed agree with the LXX on the "b'nai 'Elohim" readings in Deut > 32 I am inclined to go with those and see the MT as more of an > interpretation. I realize this view of the MT is not shared by lots > of people who take a more fundamentalist approach but I gave up my > own textual fundamentalism years ago. > > That said, and as interesting as these things are, those "secret > things" that belong to YHVH--this text is clear and has NO variants: > > "And now O Israel, what does YHVH your 'Elohim require of you, but > to hold in awe YHVH your 'Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love > him, to serve YHVH your 'Elohim with all your heart and with all > your soul" (Deut 10:12) > > Take care, > > > > James > > > > > > On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: > >> James, >> I am reading the information on the sons of Elohim, sons of gods >> and you said you agreed with some of the information and disagreed >> with some of it. Could you say which parts you disagreed with? This >> is all confusing to me and when you add in the different >> translations, I am over my head. I trust your judgment and know you >> have a vast amount of knowledge to draw from. Thanks. >> Betty Eddy >> >> >> >> >> --- On Fri, 7/24/09, James Tabor wrote: >> >> From: James Tabor >> Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM >> >> On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire >> chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, >> "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative >> Plural) is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual >> cycle of readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, >> as some translations show. The text is a Song, referred to >> subsequently as the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under >> inspiration to the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic >> future of the mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite >> people. One important thing to remember in reading this passage is >> that it is not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after >> the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of >> Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is >> read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a >> much different light. These are among the last recorded words of >> Moses. >> >> The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as >> God of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the >> "father that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the >> ancient name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in >> speaking of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19). >> >> Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in >> our various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and >> preserved by Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic >> text (MT). There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back >> to 200 BCE, in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more >> recently, there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have >> survived as part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is >> most interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy >> differ in some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional >> text, and its readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. >> These variations have to do with the use of the term "sons of >> Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim. >> >> These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, >> since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT >> (Masoretic) text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew >> text is understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect. >> However, when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy >> agreed with the Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have >> been given much more attention and weight. Slowly the scholars >> have begun to have more and more respect for the LXX. By and large >> it is a very literal translation, and there is now every indication >> that the translators were in fact translating a Hebrew original >> that is different from the MT--however, one values it. In other >> words, they were not just adding things and being sloppy with their >> translation work. Often the differences are not so important, when >> we compare the Qumran Hebrew Bible with the MT, but in this case >> these variants seem quite significant. Of course the Qumran copies >> are older than the MT by more than a thousand years, so the >> discovery of these most ancient of Hebrew texts raises all kinds of >> questions, both for the scholars and traditional Judaism (and even >> fundamentalist Christianity). Here are the differences, which I >> have put in Italics: >> >> MT (Masoretic text) reads: >> Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their >> inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders >> of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. >> >> LXX (Greek) reads: >> Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he >> separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations >> according to the number of the angels of God. >> >> Qumran/DSS reads: >> Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their >> inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds >> of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim. >> >> Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" >> passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the >> Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters >> of Adam" are mentioned. >> >> But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of >> the Song. >> >> MT reads: >> Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He >> doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to >> His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people. >> >> LXX (Greek) reads: >> Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the >> angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, >> and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he >> will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, >> and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that >> hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. >> >> Qumran/DSS reads: >> Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you >> sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will >> render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate >> him, and will atone for the land of his people. >> >> As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees >> with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim." >> >> The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of >> the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin. >> >> The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of >> the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one >> way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One >> interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the >> other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, >> from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no >> doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, >> speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of >> Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite >> misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is >> simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the >> context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of >> Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of >> whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not >> He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the >> clear reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly >> seems to be a reference to so-called "angels." >> >> If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be >> different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" >> would in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of >> Israel" or Jacob, his grandson. >> >> There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the >> mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole >> concept of the "hiding of the Face" of God. >> >> Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these >> textual variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX >> (Septuagint), but also in various versions of the MT, would affect >> something like the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My >> own view is that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that >> are visible on a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid >> and hard to deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to >> be much affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled >> out at 50 letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. >> The ones I would question are those found separated by multiple >> pages, hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I think those >> have been shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they end up being >> more like "fortune telling" than anything else. That is my view, >> having followed this rather closely some years back when Drosnin >> hit the scene. >> >> >> >> Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom! >> >> James Tabor >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/e3776ef6/attachment.html From invitations at rootsoffaith.net Thu Aug 6 12:16:03 2009 From: invitations at rootsoffaith.net (Ross Nichols) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Dialogue] Come join me on The Origin of Speeches on A Synagogue Without Walls Message-ID: <13118916.1249578963815.JavaMail.xncore@omx> A Synagogue Without Walls: Ross Nichols has invited you to join The Origin of Speeches on A Synagogue Without Walls -------------------- We are hoping to Isaac Mozeson on the SWW. His research into what he calls Edenic is incredible. Some of you know his research. Can Hebrew be shown to be the Origin of the Speeches? Check out The Origin of Speeches on A Synagogue Without Walls: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/theoriginofspeeches?xgi=i2xqyQH If your email program doesn't recognize the web address above as an active link, please copy and paste it into your web browser -------------------- About The Origin of Speeches on A Synagogue Without Walls The purpose of this group is to discuss the research and work of Isaac Mozeson. Does human langauge trace back to an ancient Hebrew source since Eden? 1 member Created By: Ross Nichols -------------------- About A Synagogue Without Walls A place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. 254 members 796 photos 164 songs 227 discussions 24 Events 82 blog posts -------------------- To control which emails you receive on the corner, or to opt-out, go to: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/?xgo=Z4Z5oV6E/CBXaGqP999Ku65Gvk-nNX0cOOkzV1wyCWgRNj7HgB/EZf4R2ZSBJPBQ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/a88e7b58/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 6 13:47:23 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:47:23 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com> <7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <973EBD42-E56E-4EC2-8496-03525F37E40B@earthlink.net> Let me elaborate here a bit on what I said as some of this is unresolved and debated, even by the scholars, and other things are being misunderstood in this thread of very interesting posts. 1. In the 2nd Temple/Roman period Aramaic was the dominant language in the land and its environs but we now know that Hebrew was still very much alive and was used, even colloquially, by many. It was spoken, read, and understood by the populace and served particularly the religious oriented needs of the culture. 2. Aramaic and Hebrew, however, are very similar, much more so than say Latin and Italian, so even if Yeshua did speak and/or teach in Aramaic there is still essentially a semitic background to the vocabulary, thought patterns, idioms, and so forth, one that would be shared by Hebrew. However, I think it is beyond question, in my mind at least, that Yeshua would know both Aramaic and Hebrew fluently and would have used Hebrew in certain contexts, maybe even in his public teachings. There is an interesting line in Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew-- when Jesus cries out with a loud voice on the cross, it says he cried out "in the holy tongue," clearly meaning in Hebrew. 3. Parts of our Greek N.T. may have been originally in Hebrew and/or Aramaic. Certainly Matthew, and most would say Q. Mark seems to have been written in Greek, as a finished product, but that is not to say the author did not use Hebrew/Aramaic sources, and the same can be said for John. Luke also is good Greek, but it is a kind of strange "semitic" Greek, much like the Septuagint, as it is based on the tradition in Matthew and Q, and some have tried to reconstruct a proto- Luke that was in Hebrew (Robert Lindsey, David Flusser, etc.). I think Paul's letters were written originally in Greek though they also show semitic ideas, vocabulary and thought forms, but very mixed with Hellenistic as well. 4. What this means is the study of the gospel materials in particular has much to gain from both Aramaic and Syriac studies. There are a couple of really good Web sites that make this clear, see http://www.aramaicnt.org/ and http://www.peshitta.org/ 5. What is really exciting about having Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew (as well as two other separate versions called duTillet and Munster) is that we get a chance to see a text we only have in Greek or Syriac (Peshitta which most take to be a translation of the Greek) actually written in Hebrew. Howard has also effectively shown, to my mind at least, that Shem Tov has more claim to antiquity than duTillet or Munster--but all are worth consulting. 6. The quotes we have from Jerome, Eusebius, and Epiphanius, who say they are following an Ebionite "Gospel of the Hebrews" do not correspond to Shem Tov precisely so we should be cautious in claiming that in Shem Tov we actually have a copy of the original Hebrew as Matthew wrote it. What we can say, I think, is that it is not a translation from the Greek and Howard has effectively answered all his critics on this point--you can see the debates in the supplementary materials in his book. On Aug 4, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: > It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew > slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea > Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's > main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem > Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that > Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that > to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late > Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, > from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his > Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the > N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who > gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. > > In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find > Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does > not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second > language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. > > Just my thoughts, > > Pat > > From: James Tabor > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew > > This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian > Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew > was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd > Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with > Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the > past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background > of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a > key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The > exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case > that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background > in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are > agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., > so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." > Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can > get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all > this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. > > As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary > inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by > Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into > the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and > forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman > Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books > for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was > commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves > down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other > than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. > > Hope this helps a bit... > > James > > > On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: > >> >> >> Dr. Tabor, >> >> Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. >> Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay >> awake for his sermon. J >> >> Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you >> about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as >> to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know >> there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the >> original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a >> truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and >> was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might >> find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I >> guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and >> your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in >> the Aramaic text debate. >> >> We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text >> was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show >> the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very >> interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. >> I first thought when the news of this text came out ??. This text >> is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I >> have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at >> your day job. Any thoughts. >> >> Marvin >> >> From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org >> ] On Behalf Of Patty >> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! >> >> http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >> From the Los Angeles Times >> 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem >> The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is >> 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet >> able to decipher it. >> By Thomas H. Maugh II >> >> August 1, 2009 >> >> U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old >> limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script >> near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. >> >> Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were >> inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a >> single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon >> Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led >> the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. >> >> "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing >> the find Wednesday. >> >> Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he >> said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text >> is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately >> cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or >> Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who >> used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to >> understand its meaning. >> >> The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim >> national park since June 14. >> >> The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount >> of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli >> archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription >> from the 13th century. >> >> The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from >> the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by >> King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which >> ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >> >> >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing >> complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well- >> preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three >> bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and >> his troops sacked the city. >> >> This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the >> discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red >> argaman dye used on priestly garments. >> >> On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the >> remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site >> shortly after its destruction. >> >> They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from >> the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height >> of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex >> or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. >> >> thomas.maugh at latimes.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/34dde198/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:41:54 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 20:41:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <973EBD42-E56E-4EC2-8496-03525F37E40B@earthlink.net> References: <6851C0F64F83481A918C266DF22534B9@davesbook> <064682CB26F34AA8861DC9853A11CD79@TESTPC> <112DDA8C81E1431C992AE70850D484D8@davesbook> <855590370908030533s5ebd94c1kbb0cf44737f06e2d@mail.gmail.com><4AFCCF5B-DD55-4CD2-83CF-D5047B3463CF@earthlink.net><028101ca146c$5b3601d0$11a20570$@com><7F93C6F4-5283-4A12-97C9-1E140FAFA7C1@earthlink.net> <973EBD42-E56E-4EC2-8496-03525F37E40B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks, James! Much appreciated. Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 2:47 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Let me elaborate here a bit on what I said as some of this is unresolved and debated, even by the scholars, and other things are being misunderstood in this thread of very interesting posts. 1. In the 2nd Temple/Roman period Aramaic was the dominant language in the land and its environs but we now know that Hebrew was still very much alive and was used, even colloquially, by many. It was spoken, read, and understood by the populace and served particularly the religious oriented needs of the culture. 2. Aramaic and Hebrew, however, are very similar, much more so than say Latin and Italian, so even if Yeshua did speak and/or teach in Aramaic there is still essentially a semitic background to the vocabulary, thought patterns, idioms, and so forth, one that would be shared by Hebrew. However, I think it is beyond question, in my mind at least, that Yeshua would know both Aramaic and Hebrew fluently and would have used Hebrew in certain contexts, maybe even in his public teachings. There is an interesting line in Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew--when Jesus cries out with a loud voice on the cross, it says he cried out "in the holy tongue," clearly meaning in Hebrew. 3. Parts of our Greek N.T. may have been originally in Hebrew and/or Aramaic. Certainly Matthew, and most would say Q. Mark seems to have been written in Greek, as a finished product, but that is not to say the author did not use Hebrew/Aramaic sources, and the same can be said for John. Luke also is good Greek, but it is a kind of strange "semitic" Greek, much like the Septuagint, as it is based on the tradition in Matthew and Q, and some have tried to reconstruct a proto-Luke that was in Hebrew (Robert Lindsey, David Flusser, etc.). I think Paul's letters were written originally in Greek though they also show semitic ideas, vocabulary and thought forms, but very mixed with Hellenistic as well. 4. What this means is the study of the gospel materials in particular has much to gain from both Aramaic and Syriac studies. There are a couple of really good Web sites that make this clear, see http://www.aramaicnt.org/ and http://www.peshitta.org/ 5. What is really exciting about having Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew (as well as two other separate versions called duTillet and Munster) is that we get a chance to see a text we only have in Greek or Syriac (Peshitta which most take to be a translation of the Greek) actually written in Hebrew. Howard has also effectively shown, to my mind at least, that Shem Tov has more claim to antiquity than duTillet or Munster--but all are worth consulting. 6. The quotes we have from Jerome, Eusebius, and Epiphanius, who say they are following an Ebionite "Gospel of the Hebrews" do not correspond to Shem Tov precisely so we should be cautious in claiming that in Shem Tov we actually have a copy of the original Hebrew as Matthew wrote it. What we can say, I think, is that it is not a translation from the Greek and Howard has effectively answered all his critics on this point--you can see the debates in the supplementary materials in his book. On Aug 4, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Pat Robbins wrote: It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. J Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith?s book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ??. This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/8bb4b9c2/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Thu Aug 6 20:17:12 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <520057.68492.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks James. I have heard that the book of Job was actually a play. Is there any truth in that? And Ha Satan was a job description. Do you think the job of adversary was relegated to one entity or do you think it was something other entities did as called for? Betty --- On Thu, 8/6/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 10:09 AM One thing to keep in mind in all of this is that words in English that tend to have very static meanings, such as "God" or "gods," and "angel" in Hebrew are much more generic. Thus 'el or 'elohim really means "power" or "powers," and as I think you know, can even refer to human beings, judges, rulers, and the like. The same with "angels," the word is mal'ak, and has not "heavenly" connotation as in English, but means simply "messenger" or "envoy," and thus carries the notion of representation, not that of an entity or essence of a certain being. One way then of thinking of this is in terms of our English word "force." We know there are four "physical" forces that can be identified by physicists: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear force. If we go beyond our atomically configured world, detectable via our sense and instruments, the concept of 'elohim or even "the" 'elohim touches upon other "forces," or realities, some of which are spoken of in the Tanakh as "personal," thus the "satan" among the "b'nai 'elohim" in the early chapters of Job, etc. Calling Yehovah 'elohim, in the plural, with a singular subject, is like saying the "force of all forces..." Thus Genesis 1:1: "When the Force of all forces began to shape/form the heavens and the earth, the earth was a desolate, empty wasteland...This Force of all forces is otherwise known as 'El Elyon--thus "Force Most High..." and the name given to Moshe is YeHoVaH, which means: Will/Is/Was... Your other topic I will save for another time but it does interest me... Hope that helps! James On Aug 5, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: James, Thanks for the reply. I am inclined to agree that there were "gods" or whatever they were over certain nations. The article also answers the question I have had about the giants surviving the flood. Apparently, they didn't. They merely were born after the flood as well as before. I listen to Coast to Coast and there are always people talking about aliens that came down to earth that were misunderstood as gods. I wonder it there could be any connection. People twist things around to be something they can believe. It's difficult for me to know where the lines are. Gods over nations might explain what is going on today. I asked a question of the dialogue some time back about why Christians continue to believe as they do. I meant it seriously. The response was that I was being "not nice". Bottom line, are their eyes blinded, are they not interested in the real truth, do they merely follow the crowd? Are the lies taught to so many people in seminary that they can't see the truth? I did. Why can't they? My son-in-law believes that Israel is merely another country, nothing special. There was a time when my daughter didn't have a Christmas tree. He also said that he believed the Bible, no matter what it said, even when he didn't understand it. I tend to question everything. Someone on the dialogue said that he/she asked God for His truth, not man's truth. This was the beginning of their journey to where they were now. The thing is that this is the same prayer I had and God took me where I am today. I guess I want to understand what to pray for my son-in-law. I pray now that God would turn his heart to see the truth, but I had a legitimate question. Thanks for listening. Take care. Betty --- On Wed, 8/5/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 2:07 PM Betty, I am sorry but I just have not been able to get back to this and I also fear it might be too complex to discuss via e-mail. What I would say in general is that there seem to be enough texts in the Hebrew Bible (and I restrict myself to that body of writings) to indicate a class of "beings," not humans, who are called the "b'nai 'Elohim." They would be very much along the lines of those referred to elsewhere as the mal'akim, but there is indication that they participate in some type of "council" of Elohim, with the Most High, whom we know as Yehovah...I am thinking here mainly of Psalm 82 and related texts. In terms of the variant texts, since the DSS copies of Deuteronomy do indeed agree with the LXX on the "b'nai 'Elohim" readings in Deut 32 I am inclined to go with those and see the MT as more of an interpretation. I realize this view of the MT is not shared by lots of people who take a more fundamentalist approach but I gave up my own textual fundamentalism years ago. That said, and as interesting as these things are, those "secret things" that belong to YHVH--this text is clear and has NO variants: "And now O Israel, what does YHVH your 'Elohim require of you, but to hold in awe YHVH your 'Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love him, to serve YHVH your 'Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deut 10:12)Take care, James On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: James, I am reading the information on the sons of Elohim, sons of gods and you said you agreed with some of the information and disagreed with some of it. Could you say which parts you disagreed with? This is all confusing to me and when you add in the different translations, I am over my head. I trust your judgment and know you have a vast amount of knowledge to draw from. Thanks. Betty Eddy --- On Fri, 7/24/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative Plural) is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual cycle of readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic rhythm, as some translations show. The text is a Song, referred to subsequently as the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under inspiration to the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic future of the mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite people. One important thing to remember in reading this passage is that it is not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a much different light. These are among the last recorded words of Moses. The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as God of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the "father that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the ancient name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in speaking of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19). Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in our various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and preserved by Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic text (MT). There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back to 200 BCE, in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And more recently, there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that have survived as part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What is most interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy differ in some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional text, and its readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. These variations have to do with the use of the term "sons of Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim. These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT (Masoretic) text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew text is understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect.? However, when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of Deuteronomy agreed with the Septuagint, against the MT, those readings have been given much more attention and weight.? Slowly the scholars have begun to have more and more respect for the LXX.? By and large it is a very literal translation, and there is now every indication that the translators were in fact translating a Hebrew original that is different from the MT--however, one values it.? In other words, they were not just adding things and being sloppy with their translation work.? Often the differences are not so important, when we compare the Qumran Hebrew Bible with the MT, but in this case these variants seem quite significant.? Of course the Qumran copies are older than the MT by more than a thousand years, so the discovery of these most ancient of Hebrew texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the scholars and traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist Christianity).? Here are the differences, which I have put in Italics: MT (Masoretic text) reads:Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel. LXX (Greek) reads:Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. Qumran/DSS reads:Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim. Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the "daughters of Adam" are mentioned. But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax of the Song.?? MT reads:Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance to His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His people. LXX (Greek) reads:Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. Qumran/DSS reads:Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who hate him, and will atone for the land of his people. As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim." The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin. The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, one way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. One interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while the other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis 5, from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is no doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm 82, speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the clear reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly seems to be a reference to so-called "angels." If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" would in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons of Israel" or Jacob, his grandson. There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as the mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole concept of the "hiding of the Face" of God. Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these textual variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX (Septuagint), but also in various versions of the MT, would affect something like the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. My own view is that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those that are visible on a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are valid and hard to deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not seem to be much affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH spelled out at 50 letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, Exodus, etc. The ones I would question are those found separated by multiple pages, hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I think those have been shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they end up being more like "fortune telling" than anything else. That is my view, having followed this rather closely some years back when Drosnin hit the scene. Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom! James Tabor -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/b77c5af0/attachment.html From goodears at jps.net Fri Aug 7 00:16:31 2009 From: goodears at jps.net (Ron Runyon) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 22:16:31 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Pat, Your response was unexpected and surprising to me. I was pointing out the book as it relates to the discussion about the New Testament writings and what language they could have been written in. I would suggest that one read a book not just look at other peoples comments on it, to evaluate its merits. As to the other comments, I can not deny Yahshua as my savior and The Messiah of the Scriptures. I have experienced too much thru the Ruach to deny the work of YHVH thru the name of Yahshua. When I ask my Father and Elohim for something in prayer, in the name of Yahshua, and He answers, I have the evidence I need. I do have a question for you. Are you a Jew? Are you Ephraim? I am of Ephraim myself. As you have explained your position on God I do have more questions I would like to hear your thoughts on. I am still coming to new understanding on many new thoughts on the TaNaCH. I hope we can continue this dialog. There is nothing better that talking about and learning from others what they have gleaned from the Scriptures. My heart felt love to you, Shalom, Ron Runyon _____ From: Pat Robbins [mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:07 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thank you, Ron. I found the book on Amazon. It's RUACH QADIM: ARAMAIC ORIGINS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT by Andrew Grariel Roth. I too believe that Greek must be a translation coming later. Salvation is of the Jews, and the Jews speak Hebrew - with a little Aramaic thrown in!!!! : ) I would most definitely find myself disagreeing with Roth however, especially on salvation coming through a man, and not through G-d alone. I read a couple of reviews, and excerpts from his book on Amazon, and from what I can glean, Roth believes in the divinity of a man. Because the Hebrew Bible specifically refutes that idea, and has multiple verses saying that only through faith in our Father are we brought into a right relationship with Him, I had to repent of having worshipped a man as G-d for so many years. It was a very difficult thing to do and I grieved over the loss of my god-man for a long time, but finally came out on the other side loving, focusing upon and worshipping the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - and none other. I have only the greatest respect for the Rabbi from Galilee, whom we call Jesus or Yeshua, but I truly believe that his message and even the truth of his very existence were stolen from him and he was re-interpreted as a Greek god, instead of the Hebrew Torah giant he truly was. I very much appreciate this opportunity to dialogue with you, and it is the desire of my heart that as we walk along this Ancient Path home to our Father, that we will be able to search His Word together and find His Truth, while rejecting any and all politically inspired doctrines of men, fed to our fathers so long ago. If I have misunderstood the gist of Mr. Roth's book, I'm sorry, and will welcome correction. My love to you, fellow sojourner, Pat From: Ron Runyon Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew I have also dug into this subject and found a good book on it. I have loaned it out but as I remember it was titled Ruach Quadim or something close to this spelling. The Author was A.G.Roth. In the book the author sets forth many examples of Semitic language as the source of the NT writings and shows how the Greek must be a translation coming later. Shalom, Ron Runyon _____ From: Marvin Hyde [mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. :-) Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. :-) Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story ?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090806/c0d54e6e/attachment.html From cormary at mts.net Fri Aug 7 09:41:52 2009 From: cormary at mts.net (Cornie Reimer) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:41:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <506844.69528.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <506844.69528.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A7C3D30.1070903@mts.net> Thanks Tracy I think I can understand, I have printed out your book quite a while ago, but have not read it lately. I know I was impressed with your view of it. Cornie Tracy Osborne wrote: > Shalom Cornie, I'd like to comment, > > According to my Orthodox Rabbi, the Nazarean Codicil (new testament) > was written by Orthodox Sages according to Orthodox hermeneutical > principles and must be interpreted accordingly. One can see them here > as presented by his Talmid: http://www.betemunah.org/rules.html > These are the rules of PaRDeS: > *P*ashat - Mark - The 7 rules of Hillel > *R*emez - Luke - The 13 rules of Ishmael > *D*rash - Matthew - The 32 rules of Ben Gallil > *S*od - John - The 42 rules of Zohar > > In my own studies, I found that a prophecy can have an: > _actual fulfillment_ and a _parallel fulfillment_. > > The* Actual Fulfillment* of the prophecy of Isaiah 7 was fulfilled in > Isaiah 8. And then, Isaiah 9 foresees another future fulfilment, that > in some way, ties the ideas of Isaiah 7 & 8 to them. > *A Parallel Fulfillment* of Isaiah 7 is recorded in Matthew - > */_not_/* it's Actual Fulfillment. In a parallel fulfillment, one is > presenting a similar situation that is brought to mind by the > quotation. So, the quotation from Isaiah 7, was _not meant to be > understood_ in the way that Catholics twisted it into. It was meant to > be understood according to the rules that govern Drash interpretation > (Midrash). One does well to look for the original Hebew words, > thoughts, and stories from the Tanach that are being hinted at with > the use of words and phrases. > > With the specific issue of the translation of "virgin" in Matthew, if > one plugs in the Hebrew word "almah", which is used by Isaiah, along > with the context of it's use in Isaiah 7 and 8, one will find that it > means a young married maiden. In fact, the context shows that the > "almah" in Isaiah 7 was Isaiah's young wife. Isaiah "knew" his wife, > the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son, and it was a "sign" > that ImmanuEl - El is with us. > > So, what the "sign" shows was that in the Genealogy in Matthew, Yacob > gave birth to a Tsadik named Yosef (sound familiar?), who "knew" > his barren wife (his almah") following her angelic visitation, and she > conceived. According to Luke, she then went to visit her Kohenim > family (Elizabeth) who, *ALSO*, had been barren. (In the Remez of > Luke, we have _ a hint_ here with the word ALSO, that Maryam had been > barren herself!! That was her real complaint to the Angel Gabriel). > After 3 months, she returned to *HER HOME*, to her husband, with child > (although they had not set up house together yet), the pregnancy was > in the spirit of holiness - that is, it was legitimate according to > halakha). > > Notice also in the Genealogy of Matthew 1 - the women that are > mentioned are placed there ON PURPOSE to prompt one's mind to the > remember their particular odd circumstances, which gave fueled > opponents to raise doubts as to the legitimacy of their children. > Remember the circumstances of: > > Tamar - Was Paretz legitimate? Absolutely! > Rahab - Was Boaz legitimate? Absolutely! > Bathsheba - Was Solomon legitimate? Absolutely! > Maryam - Was Yeshua legitimate? Absolutely! > > That, which was originally actually miraculous conception, a healing > of barrenness, was twisted into a virgin conception by Rome. > > Cornie, I hope I this isn't too confusing and I hope it helps. I > think maybe I don't write so well...Maybe I should stick to just > singing! Nevertheless, I have a book on this on my website. > > Shalom U' Brachot, > Tracy > > > > > --- On *Wed, 8/5/09, Cornie Reimer //* wrote: > > > From: Cornie Reimer > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:13 AM > > Hi Marvin > I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the > left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about > it when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the > virgin birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I > will quote the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it > out for yourself if you have a copy of it: > / > Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass > when his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she > was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. > 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her > nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to > death. He rather wished to conceal her. > 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel > appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not > fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy > Spirit. > 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he > will save my people from their sins. > 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet > according to the Lord: > 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and > you will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us./ > > The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about > was, the virgin birth. And in verse 22 /All this was to complete > what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: > /So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture > as proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? > / > /If I have it right, verse 22 refers to /Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the > Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall > conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel./ (KJV) > > What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the > virgin birth of Jesus? > > So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its > original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is > the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was > to be born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in > verse 16 we read as follows: /Issa 7:16 For before the child shall > know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou > abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her king./ (KJV) > > If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be > born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child > prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, > was that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I > know that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child > in the Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV ) /Isa 7:14 Therefore > the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall > conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. //(KJV) > > /As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin > birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we > read: /Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden > will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. > > /According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as > the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding > the virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. > > Cornie > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090807/a8251493/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 7 09:33:27 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 10:33:27 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I so appreciate your kind response, Ron. I am Jewish, and would strongly and lovingly suggest you try praying to HaShem in His Own Name to see that He is the One Who is answering your prayers. While I truly believe He has no problem in His children praying in the name of one of his Tzaddikim (Righteous Ones), it is He Alone Who is our Hope and our Source for answered prayer, and discovering this about Him is such an incomparable blessing. From my own personal viewpoint, this is such an invaluable thing to learn about His Loving-Kindness towards each and every one of us, and so well-worth the effort to find out. Love to you, and Shabbat Shalom, Pat From: Ron Runyon Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 1:16 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thank you Pat, Your response was unexpected and surprising to me. I was pointing out the book as it relates to the discussion about the New Testament writings and what language they could have been written in. I would suggest that one read a book not just look at other peoples comments on it, to evaluate its merits. As to the other comments, I can not deny Yahshua as my savior and The Messiah of the Scriptures. I have experienced too much thru the Ruach to deny the work of YHVH thru the name of Yahshua. When I ask my Father and Elohim for something in prayer, in the name of Yahshua, and He answers, I have the evidence I need. I do have a question for you. Are you a Jew? Are you Ephraim? I am of Ephraim myself. As you have explained your position on God I do have more questions I would like to hear your thoughts on. I am still coming to new understanding on many new thoughts on the TaNaCH. I hope we can continue this dialog. There is nothing better that talking about and learning from others what they have gleaned from the Scriptures. My heart felt love to you, Shalom, Ron Runyon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Robbins [mailto:patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 7:07 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thank you, Ron. I found the book on Amazon. It's RUACH QADIM: ARAMAIC ORIGINS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT by Andrew Grariel Roth. I too believe that Greek must be a translation coming later. Salvation is of the Jews, and the Jews speak Hebrew - with a little Aramaic thrown in!!!! : ) I would most definitely find myself disagreeing with Roth however, especially on salvation coming through a man, and not through G-d alone. I read a couple of reviews, and excerpts from his book on Amazon, and from what I can glean, Roth believes in the divinity of a man. Because the Hebrew Bible specifically refutes that idea, and has multiple verses saying that only through faith in our Father are we brought into a right relationship with Him, I had to repent of having worshipped a man as G-d for so many years. It was a very difficult thing to do and I grieved over the loss of my god-man for a long time, but finally came out on the other side loving, focusing upon and worshipping the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - and none other. I have only the greatest respect for the Rabbi from Galilee, whom we call Jesus or Yeshua, but I truly believe that his message and even the truth of his very existence were stolen from him and he was re-interpreted as a Greek god, instead of the Hebrew Torah giant he truly was. I very much appreciate this opportunity to dialogue with you, and it is the desire of my heart that as we walk along this Ancient Path home to our Father, that we will be able to search His Word together and find His Truth, while rejecting any and all politically inspired doctrines of men, fed to our fathers so long ago. If I have misunderstood the gist of Mr. Roth's book, I'm sorry, and will welcome correction. My love to you, fellow sojourner, Pat From: Ron Runyon Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 2:22 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew I have also dug into this subject and found a good book on it. I have loaned it out but as I remember it was titled Ruach Quadim or something close to this spelling. The Author was A.G.Roth. In the book the author sets forth many examples of Semitic language as the source of the NT writings and shows how the Greek must be a translation coming later. Shalom, Ron Runyon -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marvin Hyde [mailto:mhyde7 at tds.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 9:13 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Dr. Tabor. I will look at the material suggested. I do have the Matthew in Hebrew by G. Howard. It has been years since I look at it I will have to go back through it again. It must be a good book, Ross has been carrying it around for twenty years. J Pat, I'm not really sure I know where I'm coming from in the questions to JT. Some reading I was doing in the weeks leading up to the Avinu Prayer coming out got me thinking and I have not been able to settle these questions. At first I thought about ordering the book , also thought about not ordering it for various reasons, but then in the end made the trip to listen first hand. Here is what we know. - Hebrew was used in the second temple period and later(BK and DSS). - We also know Aramaic was used in the second temple period. - We know there are passage's in Daniel in Aramaic. In the late text we have. Older more ancient text might reveal something else. - I do not know if Aramaic text is mixed with the Greek in the LXX. I would guess not. - We also know there is Aramaic in both Talmud's. Mixed with Hebrew. - We know Aramaic is a sister language to Hebrew. - And we know that the eastern church claims an Aramaic text of the NT and the western church claims to have the true one written in Greek. Am I batting 7 for 7.? I sure there are other thinks that could be added to the list that I don't know. My thinking kind of follows this path. The original NT was probably written in Hebrew. And maybe even Aramaic, since it was used before in parts of tanack. I tend to think Greek came later, much later maybe as later as after 300 ce. If my thinking is correct then maybe Aramaic text would give a closer more correct view of what was going on back then. Now I have learned these past few weeks that there are some people and groups that believe this but it seems there text are not as old as the greek texts therefore they still have holes in their boat, so to speak. So this is where im coming form. Would it not be great to find a text that everyone agreed was at least from before the second temple period. Better yet the one written by King David, with his signature... In reality just like today there were many texts many languages and many different opinions. Shalom, marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 2:43 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew It seems that if Bar Kochba wrote letters in Hebrew, using Hebrew slang, and that ossuary inscriptions, as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, that it should be clear the people's main language was Hebrew. I also think that's why the Hebrew Shem Tov Matthew is so important, and hence, the Avinu Prayer that Nehemiah Gordon has studied in such depth. It just seems to me that to remove the Hebrew Language from the Jewish people of the late Second Temple era also removes Jesus, the Torah observant rabbi, from the reality of his life. The more he is distanced from his Hebrew roots, the easier it becomes to view him as the god of the N.T., as opposed to the Hebrew concept of an anointed servant who gathers the Tribes of Israel and governs the people under G-d's rule. In the USA, many languages are spoken, and it is now common to find Spanish translations on just about EVERYTHING we read, but that does not mean that Spanish has replaced English. It is just a second language with which many are at least somewhat conversant. Just my thoughts, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 1:45 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew This is really a big and emerging topic in the field of Christian Origins. For years the consensus among the scholars was that Hebrew was more or less a "dead" language in Judea/Galilee in late 2nd Temple times, thus Aramaic was the lingua franca of the period, with Hebrew being used as a kind of formal literary throwback to the past. This spawned a plethora of studies on the "Aramaic" background of the N.T. and the idea that by learning Aramaic we would have a key that would take us back to Jesus, literally, on the street. The exaltation of the Peshitta Syriac is a case in point. It is the case that being a semitic language, you do pick up some useful background in looking at the Syriac versions of the N.T., but most scholars are agreed these 5th century CE texts are derived from the Greek N.T., so they are one step removed, in that sense, from the "originals." Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew is different in that regard. If you can get hold of Howard's book it is well worth it, as he discusses all this, and lots more, in the introduction and appendices. As it turns out know from both the Dead Sea Scrolls, ossuary inscriptions, and even letters written informally, with slang, by Bar Kochba himself, that Hebrew was used as a vernacular down into the 2nd century CE. The issue though is still debated back and forth. A good source is Catherine Hezser, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine. You can read some relevant portions of it on Google books for free. She favors the view of Seth Schwartz that Hebrew was commonly spoken in "Palestine" until 300 BCE, but that as one moves down into the later centuries Aramaic tended to take over, other than among those circles centered on the Torah and the Temple. Hope this helps a bit... James On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:22 PM, Marvin Hyde wrote: Dr. Tabor, Thanks for your earlier reply. Barbara and I enjoyed the speakers. Barbara commented Keith Johnson is her kind of preacher. You stay awake for his sermon. J Now to the article below. If you remember the question I ask you about the Aramaic text of the NT writings and the Pashitta text, as to their value in relation to the Greek NT. Text. As you know there are some people of the belief that the eastern church has the original NT text in Aramaic and thus they have the older text and a truer tradition. I have not been able to support there thesis and was wondering if you could point me in a direction where I might find the lowdown on this subject from the scholarly community. I guess, I asking for the most current opinions. This article and your first report on the Mt. Zion dig has resparked my interest in the Aramaic text debate. We know Aramaic was used along side of Hebrew in the days the text was being put together. Nehemiah and Keith's book seemed to show the Hebrew of Matthew, I just find this 10 line text very interesting if it is both Hebrew and Aramaic mixed or just Aramaic. I first thought when the news of this text came out ... This text is gonna be of interest, maybe something of real big interest. I have not searched your sites yet, nor the university site there at your day job. Any thoughts. Marvin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Patty Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Dig Mt. Zion makes the LA Times!! http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-mtzion1-2009aug01,0,6188025.story?track=rss >From the Los Angeles Times 2,000-year-old ritual cup found in Old City of Jerusalem The 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script on the artifact is 'unprecedented,' an archaeologist says. Researchers are not yet able to decipher it. By Thomas H. Maugh II August 1, 2009 U.S. archaeologists have found an extremely rare 2,000-year-old limestone cup inscribed with 10 lines of Aramaic or Hebrew script near the Zion Gate of the Old City of Jerusalem. Such ritual cups are common, especially in areas that were inhabited by priests, but usually they are unmarked or bear only a single line of text, such as a name, said archaeologist Shimon Gibson of the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who led the dig along with James Tabor of the same school. "To have 10 lines of text is unprecedented," he said in announcing the find Wednesday. Although the script itself is not eroded or otherwise degraded, he said, researchers are not yet able to decipher it because the text is in an informal cursive script and is apparently deliberately cryptic. They know it contains the Hebrew word for God, YHWH or Yahweh, indicating it was probably important to the priests who used it in rituals. Gibson expected it to take two to six months to understand its meaning. The team has been digging in the Gan Sobev Homot Yerushalayim national park since June 14. The site, overlooking the Kidron and Hinnom valleys and the Mount of Olives, had not been excavated since the 1970s, when Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi found a monumental Arabic inscription from the 13th century. The new dig has produced a sequence of building remains dating from the founding of the Temple -- the center of ancient Judaism -- by King Solomon in 970 BC through the Early Islamic Period, which ended with the destruction of the Old City by Crusaders in AD 1099. >From the Second Temple Period, from 573 BC to AD 70, a housing complex with a mikvah or purification pool with a remarkably well-preserved vaulted ceiling was found. Inside the house were three bread ovens dating to AD 70, the year the Roman emperor Titus and his troops sacked the city. This area was believed to be a priestly habitat, confirmed by the discovery of 10 murex snail shells used to produce the ox-blood-red argaman dye used on priestly garments. On the level immediately above this, the researchers found the remains of a fire pit made by someone who stayed on the site shortly after its destruction. They also found a large arched building with a mosaic floor from the Byzantine Period (AD 135 to 638) that was preserved to a height of about 10 feet. They believe it is part of the building complex or a street associated with the nearby Church of St. Mary. thomas.maugh at latimes.com _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090807/3489ed13/attachment.html From beartrm at yahoo.com Fri Aug 7 11:35:18 2009 From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <4A7C3D30.1070903@mts.net> Message-ID: <943438.84647.qm@web33307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ditto from me Tracy. ?Had it not been for the scripture in Matthew along with others I would not have come to the conclusion abt. the virgin birth that I did. ?A new revelation and path HaShem has taken me on. ?BARUCH HASHEM!!!!!May all have a Shabbat Shalom,Susan ? --- On Fri, 8/7/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 9:41 AM Thanks Tracy I think I can understand, I have printed out your book quite a while ago, but have not read it lately. I know I was impressed with your view of it. Cornie Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom Cornie,?I'd like to?comment, ? According to my Orthodox Rabbi, the Nazarean Codicil?(new testament) was written by Orthodox?Sages according to Orthodox hermeneutical principles?and must be interpreted accordingly. One can see them here as presented by his Talmid: http://www.betemunah.org/rules.html These are?the rules of PaRDeS: Pashat - Mark?- The 7 rules of Hillel Remez - Luke - The 13 rules of Ishmael Drash - Matthew - The 32 rules of Ben Gallil Sod - John - The 42 rules of Zohar ? In my own studies, I found that a prophecy can have an: actual fulfillment and?a parallel fulfillment. ? The Actual Fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7 was fulfilled in Isaiah 8. And then, Isaiah 9 foresees another?future fulfilment, that in some way, ties the ideas of Isaiah 7 &?8 to them.? A Parallel Fulfillment of Isaiah 7 is recorded in Matthew - not?it's Actual Fulfillment. In a parallel fulfillment, one is presenting a similar situation that is brought to mind by the quotation. So, the quotation from Isaiah 7, was not meant to be understood in the way that Catholics twisted it into. It was meant to be understood according to the rules that govern Drash interpretation (Midrash). One does well to look for the original Hebew words, thoughts, and stories?from the Tanach that are being hinted at?with the use of words and phrases.? ? With the specific issue of the translation of "virgin" in Matthew, if one plugs in the Hebrew word "almah", which is used by Isaiah, along with?the context of it's use in Isaiah 7 and 8, one will find that it means a young married maiden. In fact, the context shows that the "almah" in Isaiah 7 was Isaiah's young wife. Isaiah "knew" his wife, the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son, and it was a "sign" that ImmanuEl - El is with us. ? So, what the?"sign" shows was?that in the Genealogy in Matthew, Yacob gave birth to?a Tsadik named Yosef (sound familiar?), who "knew" his?barren wife (his almah")?following?her angelic visitation,?and she conceived. According to Luke, she then went to visit her Kohenim family (Elizabeth) who, ALSO, had been barren.?(In the Remez of Luke,?we have??a?hint ?here with the word ALSO, that Maryam had been barren herself!! That was her real complaint to the Angel Gabriel). After 3 months, she returned to HER HOME, to her husband,?with child (although they had not set up house together yet), the pregnancy was in the spirit of holiness - that is, it was legitimate according to halakha). ? ? Notice also in the Genealogy of Matthew 1?- the women that are mentioned are placed there ON PURPOSE to prompt one's mind to the remember their particular odd circumstances, which?gave?fueled opponents?to raise doubts as to the legitimacy of their children. Remember the circumstances of: ? Tamar - Was Paretz legitimate? Absolutely! Rahab - Was Boaz legitimate? Absolutely! Bathsheba - Was Solomon legitimate? Absolutely! Maryam - Was Yeshua legitimate? Absolutely! ? That, which was originally actually miraculous conception, a healing of barrenness, was twisted into a virgin conception by Rome. ? Cornie, I hope I?this isn't too?confusing?and I hope it helps. I think?maybe I don't write so well...Maybe I should stick to just singing!?Nevertheless, I have a book on this on my website. ? Shalom U' Brachot, Tracy ? ? --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:13 AM Hi Marvin I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about it when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the virgin birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I will quote the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it out for yourself if you have a copy of it: Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass when his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to death. He rather wished to conceal her. 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he will save my people from their sins. 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and you will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us. The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about was, the virgin birth. And in verse? 22 All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture as proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? If I have it right, verse 22 refers to Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.? (KJV) What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus? So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was to be born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in verse 16 we read as follows: Issa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her king. (KJV) If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, was that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I know that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child in the Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV )? Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.? (KJV) As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we read: Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding the virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. Cornie -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090807/c42e3944/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 8 09:41:02 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:41:02 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Structure of the Torah Message-ID: I just put up a detailed post on the "Structure of the Torah" in the general discussion group on the Torah at the Synagogue without Walls site. I worked quite a bit on it and some pretty amazing insights emerged. Take a look if you are of a mind, as it strongly related to the things we are studying in Deuteronomy this season. Please jump in and add as you wish. This site is a good place to discuss Torah and everything is set up to do so. http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/thetorah/forum/topics/the-structure-of-the-torah Shabbat Shalom, James From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 8 10:33:29 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 11:33:29 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Mozeson on the Synagogue without Walls Message-ID: Many of you know Isaac Mozeson for his book, The Word, that began to deal in a fascinating way with his thesis that the roots of the Hebrew language lie at the heart of all human languages, based on Genesis 11 and the "Babel" story. Isaac is a warm and wonderful gentleman, Jewish, Torah observant, but quite committed to reaching out to the wider world with the Torah message. He knew David Horowitz and has appreciated the mission of UIWU for many decades now. Anyway, Isaac has now joined the Synagogue without Walls (http://rootsoffaith.net) and is taking part in a new discussion group there that Ross Nichols just began this week, The Hebrew Origin of Human Languages. Mozeson's work has truly expanded since the days of his first publication of his book. He has shaped his latest work around the term "Edenics" and it comprises a whole range of issues and interests, with the linguistic still at the core. It is a privilege to have Isaac interact with us and I encourage all of you to jump on over there and check things out-- it is all quite fascinating. You don't even have to "join" to read and follow, see the main group site here: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/theoriginofspeeches As well as Isaac's Blog on SWW here: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/profile/IsaacMozeson Just to whet your interest a bit on the wonderful style of Isaac Mozeson, here is an Op Ed piece he published in the Jerusalem Post in January, 2005. You can find this and lots more archived at his Web site: http://www.edenics.org/ Language: The Chattering of Chimps or Babble from Babel? Both options seem strange. Since Darwin?s The Origin of Species (1859) science assumes that, after millions of years of evolving mutations, some grunting apes became the gesturing Neanderthals, which led to Shakespearean sonnets. Happily, the floating, uniquely human hyoid throat bone also appeared, helping this species survive by lying, crooning, yodeling and rapping. (The world?s oldest hyoid bone was unearthed in Haifa). Secularists have always considered it mythic that a Divine Engineer would factory-install a language program at Eden, creating the first modern humans. And that multi-national history was then to have been neurolinguistically kickstarted at the Tower of Babel, with 70 spin- offs which have since de-evolved into our 6,000 tongues. Linguist Noam Chomsky proved that the human brain is hard-wired for language. He suggested that some super-intelligent alien engineered language. And recent linguists DO conclude that all Earth languages came from one universal language. But NOT that ?recent West-Semitic language? called Hebrew. The establishment Eurocentrists still support ?origin unknown? for LAD (boy), even though Hebrew yeled and Arabic walid mean ?boy,? and the root of birthing is Lamed-Daled. Genesis 11:1 has ?kol aretz saphah echat? ? coincidentally like WHOLE, EARTH, SPEECH? one (source of EACH). The new science of Edenics now has over 23,000 such ?coincidences.? Edenics works with a Proto-Semitic, ?Edenic? vocabulary where each root letter has the ?genes? for the wide diversity of the world?s words. Edenics doesn?t use kabbalistic formulae, only bread-and-butter stuff already used to link, say, French with Italian. So, Daled-Resh-Kahf, derekh (way, road) is echoed in the words for ?road? in Russian (doroga), Australian Aborigine (turingas) and 40 other languages in the ?DIRECTION? entry of our e-word CD dictionary. Moreover, the Gimel of garon (throat) can shift harder to a hard C or softer to an H. This is why EGRETS, CRANES and HERONS are all long-throated birds. There are only a few hundred English-Edenic links as easy as rageel (usual) and ReGuLar. If one shifts the position of a letter instead of its sound, one knows why ReLiGion is about a spiritual path becoming a ReGuLar routine. Instead of the divine dance of sense among sound, scholars assume that words are merely chaotic noises that we assign meaning to. But words traced back to Eden AREN?T meaningless sounds. Take mysterious animal names. In English, names like 1) GIRAFFE, 2) SKUNK, 3) GOPHER, and 4) HORSE are mere sounds. But in Biblical Hebrew, (Sephardic) Ayin-Resh-Phey, ghoref, means neck. 2) Tsokhen, stinker, gave the Indians that delightful creature?s name, 3) Khopher means digger, and 4) Horaish is plower. There's a large chapter on animal names from Eden in The Origin of Speeches: From the Language of Eden To Our Babble After Babel (winter 2005). Modern Hebrew has some bone-headed new animal names. When the guardians of Modern Hebrew had to coin a word for that crustacean, the CRAB, they went to the Old High German krebitz. This word is thought to mean ?scratching,? even though crabs don?t scratch. The Academy then named the crab sartan, for scratching. (Samekh-Resh-Tet is the source of SERRATED). The scholars should have noted other creatures with exoskeletons, like the aqrab (scorpion). From qeren (horn) and Aramaic karpafta (skull) they should have seen a KR subroot of hardness. Koof-Resh-Bhet means battle and encroachment. So, nature?s lumbering, armored tank, the CRAB, should have been called a qarebet. It was an animal, a little birdie, that whispered the whole Edenic concept into my ear back in 1978. I was a doctoral literature student, a published poet, stuck with a boring linguistics requirement at New York University. The professor demonstrated the genius behind reconstructing the so-called "Indo-European root? for the generic bird word. This never-spoken laboratory reconstruction was to show how Aryans emerged from a separate troop of well-groomed apes, without any (shudder) relationship to the ?inferior? races, peoples and languages. That theoretical, generic bird word was SPER. In second grade I knew a similar generic word for bird... tsipor. At the ?SPARROW? entry one sees the Tsadi-Pey behind bird-related words for floating, spying, being covered (as in feathers), a talon, and chirping. In Edenics every two consonants make a sound. Sound is energy. This is a science now, no more Humanities myths. Every sound carries sense. Therefore, if we examine the simple three-letter word for flower, Pey- Resh-Het or perakh, we can see that it is a combination of 1) P-R (botanical things, as in perot / FRUIT) and 2) the R-K element of fragrance, seen in reyakh (smell) or English REEK. Here are two examples from the upcoming Japanese book. The SAMURAI, a storied warrior, was a royal guardsman. A guardian in Hebrew is a shomer. More often, the Japanese reverses the Hebrew. KARATE is an unarmed martial art. Therefore, kara means empty and te (pronounced tay) means hand. Reverse Hebrew raik (empty) and yad (hand) to get kara-te. Are we naked but gabby gibbons, or have we divinely enhanced brains (Genesis 2:7) above an ape?s body? Were we engineered for speech, for literacy, perhaps even for Revealed moral instruction (G-d forbid)? Stay tuned. In our 21st Century culture wars, we will weigh in with the new science of Edenics. Isaac Mozeson, www.homestead.com/edenics Judy Montagu?s edits 1/13/05 Since Darwin?s The Origin of Species in 1859, science has assumed that After millions of years of evolving mutations, some grunting apes became the gesturing Neanderthals that eventually led to Shakespearean sonnets. Happily, the floating, uniquely human hyoid throat bone also made an appearance, helping this species survive by lying, crooning, yodeling and rapping. The world?s oldest hyoid bone was unearthed in Haifa. Secularists have always considered it a mythical proposition that a divine engineer would factory-install a language program at Eden, creating the first modern humans; and that multinational history would have been neurolinguistically kick-started at the Tower of Babel, with 70 spin-offs that have since de-evolved into our 6,000 tongues. Linguist Noam Chomsky proved that the human brain is hard-wired for Language and suggested that some super-intelligent alien engineered language. And recent linguists have concluded that all Earth languages came from one universal language. But, they add, it wasn?t that ?recent West- Semitic language? Hebrew. Establishment Eurocentrists still support ?origin unknown? for the word ?lad,? even though the Hebrew yeled and Arabic walid mean ?boy? and the Hebrew root of birthing is lamed-daled. Compare Genesis 11:1 kol aretz sapha achat with ?whole earth speech one? (achat (one) is the source of ?each?). A new science called Edenics, working with a Proto-Semitic ?Edenic? vocabulary in which each root letter carries the ?genes? for the wide diversity of the world?s words, now offers over 23,000 such ?coincidences.? Edenics doesn?t use kabbalistic formulae, only bread-and-butter stuff already used to link, say, French with Italian. Thus derekh (?way?) is echoed in the Russian word for ?road? (doroga), the Australian Aborigine turingas and 40 other languages (see the ?Direction? entry in our e-word CD dictionary). Moreover, the Hebrew letter gimmel in garon (throat) can harden to a ?c? or soften to an ?h? which is why egrets, cranes and herons are all long-throated birds. There are only a few hundred English-Edenic links as easy as rageel (usual) and ?regular.? Shift the letters around and ?religion? is about a spiritual path becoming a ?regular? routine. Scholars assume that words are merely chaotic noises to which we assign meaning. Wrong. Take animal names. In English, ?giraffe,? ?skunk,? ?gopher? and ?horse? are mere sounds. But in biblical Hebrew ghoref means ?neck?; tsokhen means ?stinker,? khopher means ?digger,? and horesh is ?plower.? There?s a large chapter on animal names from Eden in The Origin of Speeches: From the Language of Eden to our Babble after Babel. IT WAS a little birdie that whispered the whole Edenic concept into my ear, back in 1978. I was a doctoral literature student, a published poet, stuck with a boring linguistics requirement at New York University. The professor was demonstrating the genius behind reconstructing the so-called ?Indo-European root? for the generic bird word. This never-spoken laboratory reconstruction was to show how Aryans emerged from a separate troop of well-groomed apes. That theoretical, generic bird word was sper. But wait a minute, I said. In second grade I knew a similar generic word for ?bird?... the Hebrew tsipor. That takes us to the well-known ?sparrow? and if you look up that entry you will see the tsadi-pey behind bird-related words for floating, spying, being covered (as in feathers), a talon, and chirping. Every sound carries sense. Therefore, if we examine the three-letter Hebrew word for flower, perakh, we see that it is a combination of 1) botanical things, as in perot = fruit, and 2) fragrance, seen in reyakh (smell) or English ?reek.? Many foreign words become familiar. Most require simple letter shifts or reversals, but some are strikingly unchanged. For example, the samurai, a storied Japanese warrior, was a royal guardsman. In Hebrew, guard(ian)is shomer. A famous Hawaiian dance is the hula. Miriam danced a mahol at the Red Sea while beating a tamborine. The root is Het-Lamed, shaking. Like a waving hula, or a Middle Eastern belly dance in modest clothing. This are mere coincidences, cry the skeptics, but Edenicists have 2,000 Japanese "coincidences" so far. The data is piling up from Amazonian Brazil, Lapland, and even Basque. Do we come from naked but gabby gibbons, or have we divinely enhanced brains above an ape?s body? Were we engineered for speech, for literacy, perhaps even for revealed moral instruction, G-d forbid. Stay tuned for the new science of Edenics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090808/3ae49186/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Fri Aug 7 18:49:48 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 19:49:48 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew In-Reply-To: <4A7C3D30.1070903@mts.net> References: <506844.69528.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4A7C3D30.1070903@mts.net> Message-ID: <5FCF8F59FE3741CABD358B38865E3075@TESTPC> Cornie, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Although, I have not read TO's book on the subject of the virgin birth, I would generally agree. Years ago I came to the same understanding although down a different path. Not to throw stones, we all have to come out of Egypt, Babylon(false religious ideals) many times it takes us years to do it and other times it seems like almost over night. The children of Israel while down in Egypt, they were servants to a god incarnate... man god, Pharaoh. After Hashem got through killing the god-child, Pharaoh's first born son, the children of Israel were allowed to go free. I think we can see the analogy for us, we have to kill the falsehoods of the god-man, child-god before we can truly start own our journey back to the promise land. _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Cornie Reimer Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:42 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew Thanks Tracy I think I can understand, I have printed out your book quite a while ago, but have not read it lately. I know I was impressed with your view of it. Cornie Tracy Osborne wrote: Shalom Cornie, I'd like to comment, According to my Orthodox Rabbi, the Nazarean Codicil (new testament) was written by Orthodox Sages according to Orthodox hermeneutical principles and must be interpreted accordingly. One can see them here as presented by his Talmid: http://www.betemunah.org/rules.html These are the rules of PaRDeS: Pashat - Mark - The 7 rules of Hillel Remez - Luke - The 13 rules of Ishmael Drash - Matthew - The 32 rules of Ben Gallil Sod - John - The 42 rules of Zohar In my own studies, I found that a prophecy can have an: actual fulfillment and a parallel fulfillment. The Actual Fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 7 was fulfilled in Isaiah 8. And then, Isaiah 9 foresees another future fulfilment, that in some way, ties the ideas of Isaiah 7 & 8 to them. A Parallel Fulfillment of Isaiah 7 is recorded in Matthew - not it's Actual Fulfillment. In a parallel fulfillment, one is presenting a similar situation that is brought to mind by the quotation. So, the quotation from Isaiah 7, was not meant to be understood in the way that Catholics twisted it into. It was meant to be understood according to the rules that govern Drash interpretation (Midrash). One does well to look for the original Hebew words, thoughts, and stories from the Tanach that are being hinted at with the use of words and phrases. With the specific issue of the translation of "virgin" in Matthew, if one plugs in the Hebrew word "almah", which is used by Isaiah, along with the context of it's use in Isaiah 7 and 8, one will find that it means a young married maiden. In fact, the context shows that the "almah" in Isaiah 7 was Isaiah's young wife. Isaiah "knew" his wife, the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son, and it was a "sign" that ImmanuEl - El is with us. So, what the "sign" shows was that in the Genealogy in Matthew, Yacob gave birth to a Tsadik named Yosef (sound familiar?), who "knew" his barren wife (his almah") following her angelic visitation, and she conceived. According to Luke, she then went to visit her Kohenim family (Elizabeth) who, ALSO, had been barren. (In the Remez of Luke, we have a hint here with the word ALSO, that Maryam had been barren herself!! That was her real complaint to the Angel Gabriel). After 3 months, she returned to HER HOME, to her husband, with child (although they had not set up house together yet), the pregnancy was in the spirit of holiness - that is, it was legitimate according to halakha). Notice also in the Genealogy of Matthew 1 - the women that are mentioned are placed there ON PURPOSE to prompt one's mind to the remember their particular odd circumstances, which gave fueled opponents to raise doubts as to the legitimacy of their children. Remember the circumstances of: Tamar - Was Paretz legitimate? Absolutely! Rahab - Was Boaz legitimate? Absolutely! Bathsheba - Was Solomon legitimate? Absolutely! Maryam - Was Yeshua legitimate? Absolutely! That, which was originally actually miraculous conception, a healing of barrenness, was twisted into a virgin conception by Rome. Cornie, I hope I this isn't too confusing and I hope it helps. I think maybe I don't write so well...Maybe I should stick to just singing! Nevertheless, I have a book on this on my website. Shalom U' Brachot, Tracy --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Cornie Reimer wrote: From: Cornie Reimer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Aramaic or Hebrew To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:13 AM Hi Marvin I have the Hebrew book of Matthew too, Marvin, with Hebrew on the left side and English on the right side, I was very excited about it when I got it. it threw me for loop though when I found the virgin birth of Jesus about exactly matching the King James . I will quote the Hebrew Matthew version in English, you can check it out for yourself if you have a copy of it: Matt. 1:18 The birth of Jesus was in this way:) It came to pass when his mother was betrothed to Joseph, before he knew her, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 19. Joseph was a righteous man and did not wish to dwell with her nor to expose her by bringing her to shame or to bind her over to death. He rather wished to conceal her. 20. While he thought on this matter in his heart, behold an angel appeared unto him in a dream and said: Joseph son of David do not fear to take your wife Mary because she is pregnant by the Holy Spirit. 21.She will bear a son and you will call his name Jesus because he will save my people from their sins. 22. All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: 23. Behold the young woman is conceiving and will bear a son and you will call his name Emmanuel, that is, God with us. The wording may be slightly different. What I was concerned about was, the virgin birth. And in verse 22 All this was to complete what was written by the prophet according to the Lord: So where was it prophesied? The King James fixed up a scripture as proof, my only concern is: is this original stuff? If I have it right, verse 22 refers to Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV) What I am referring to is this. Was Isaiah 7:14 a prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus? So my question is this. Is the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, in its original untempered with form, as it was originally written? Is the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14 a prophesy of a child that was to be born 700 years later in the time of Jesus? When already in verse 16 we read as follows: Issa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her king. (KJV) If you are acquainted with the story related to this child to be born in Isaiah chapters 7 - 9 And will read that the child prophesied was already born at that time of the prophet Isaiah, was that a virgin birth at that time already as well? As far as I know that is the only scripture that refers to a virgin born child in the Old testament. ( that is, in the KJV ) Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV) As I understand it, the Hebrew Tanach does not mention a virgin birth in Isaiah 7:14 In my English translation Stones Addition we read: Therefore my Lord Himself will give you a sign: the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son, and she will name him Emmanuel. According to my understanding, both the King James, as well as the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew have been hampered with, by adding the virgin birth to it. I stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. Cornie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090807/1f1f6d03/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 18:22:44 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 16:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <263626.49309.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hey Pat, ? Thanks for your thoughts. I had a hard week after last Shabbat and the message the Rabbi gave at our Messianic Fellowship. I literally thought like throwing up and was reeling from some of the things he said. What brought about my question was a statement that his congregation would not tolerate anything from Rabbinic Judaism and that we had nothing to learn from them and they only had to learn from us! His basis for his message was Galations which has always been taken out of context but I thought it ironic that he was teaching from Rabbinic writings. ? Susie --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:54 AM I was hoping that someone else would jump in here, Susie.? I know that Tracy Osborne has some very interesting and positive?observations on Paul.? My own have become less enthusiastic over the years.? I finally have had to come to the conclusion that some of his writings have caused untold misery to many Jews, perpetrated by avid Paul followers over the past 2,000 years.? For this reason, I can no longer?energetically endorse his writings, though many things he said were truly wonderful. ? Love to you, ? Pat? From: susie getskow Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings Would you say that Shual or Paul of the NT was a Rabbi? Would his letters to the congregations printed in the NT be considered Rabbinic Drash? ? Susie _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090809/ef59da0f/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:46:08 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 23:46:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings In-Reply-To: <263626.49309.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <263626.49309.qm@web112401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Susie, Again, I'm probably the least qualified to talk about this. I know for sure I would not be able to tolerate such a statement from this man. It seems incredible to me that he would actually say that the Rabbis I so look up to, and whose teachings I so covet, should in fact, be learning from him. It was a very long, hard road for me to get to the point that I knew I had to leave the church in all its forms, but once I did, HaShem opened the beauty of His Word (the Hebrew Bible) like I'd never seen it before, and I found that those very Rabbis, whom this man discredits, made me realize through their gentle teachings how sorely lacking my understanding had been. I can't tell you how many times the words from Zechariah 8:23 reverberated through my very being as I sat learning from them................."In those days (the days we are now living in - the End Times) it shall come to pass, that ten men out of all the languages of the nations (the 10 Lost Tribes), shall take hold, and shall seize the skirt (the "kanaf," which is the outer extremity, in other words, the tzit tzit) of him that is a Jew ( in other words, those very Rabbis this Messianic Preacher decries), saying, We will go with you: FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT G-D IS WITH YOU!!!" It's like after all these hundreds and hundreds of years that we couldn't hear, the Time has come that we can hear and we suddenly realize that HaShem is with them! Don't know that I've helped at all, but this was my personal experience. Love, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 7:22 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings Hey Pat, Thanks for your thoughts. I had a hard week after last Shabbat and the message the Rabbi gave at our Messianic Fellowship. I literally thought like throwing up and was reeling from some of the things he said. What brought about my question was a statement that his congregation would not tolerate anything from Rabbinic Judaism and that we had nothing to learn from them and they only had to learn from us! His basis for his message was Galations which has always been taken out of context but I thought it ironic that he was teaching from Rabbinic writings. Susie --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Pat Robbins wrote: From: Pat Robbins Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 7:54 AM I was hoping that someone else would jump in here, Susie. I know that Tracy Osborne has some very interesting and positive observations on Paul. My own have become less enthusiastic over the years. I finally have had to come to the conclusion that some of his writings have caused untold misery to many Jews, perpetrated by avid Paul followers over the past 2,000 years. For this reason, I can no longer energetically endorse his writings, though many things he said were truly wonderful. Love to you, Pat From: susie getskow Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 11:37 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Rabbinic Writings Would you say that Shual or Paul of the NT was a Rabbi? Would his letters to the congregations printed in the NT be considered Rabbinic Drash? Susie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090809/05b68f1c/attachment.html From invitations at rootsoffaith.net Sun Aug 9 23:37:25 2009 From: invitations at rootsoffaith.net (Ross Nichols) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 04:37:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Dialogue] Come join me on Hebrew Gospels on A Synagogue Without Walls Message-ID: <19368991.1249879045750.JavaMail.xncore@omx> A Synagogue Without Walls: Ross Nichols has invited you to join Hebrew Gospels on A Synagogue Without Walls -------------------- I just posted a note in my group Hebrew Gospels on SWW. Check it out. Check out Hebrew Gospels on A Synagogue Without Walls: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/group/hebrewgospels?xgi=d6bSuzd If your email program doesn't recognize the web address above as an active link, please copy and paste it into your web browser -------------------- About Hebrew Gospels on A Synagogue Without Walls The purpose of this group is to discuss the Hebrew Gospel or Hebraisms within the gospels. 9 members 6 discussions 4 comments Created By: Ross Nichols -------------------- About A Synagogue Without Walls A place of meeting for anyone that believes in the one God of Israel and seeks to live according to the principles of the Hebrew Bible. 262 members 818 photos 164 songs 237 discussions 24 Events 85 blog posts -------------------- To control which emails you receive on the corner, or to opt-out, go to: http://www.rootsoffaith.net/?xgo=5VfBEmkx-EyEclX-YfT3y1o1mn/r6fphmyVsU7DGbA5f31amTtxyYL/xs-ms5WGv -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090810/35083bca/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 11 11:29:54 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 12:29:54 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: <520057.68492.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <520057.68492.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2C10FEC9-6753-42F8-B484-C7B9B2519285@earthlink.net> Yes, it is hard to know what to take literally in these sorts of texts which are clearly different from a straight historical narrative. I do think notions of some kind of "inherent" Evil are dualistic and gnostic, and as Isaac Mozenson has just pointed out on the SWW site that "evil" as a translation for ra' in Hebrew is quite misleading. It means something more like "bad" or just "wrong." James On Aug 6, 2009, at 9:17 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: > Thanks James. I have heard that the book of Job was actually a play. > Is there any truth in that? And Ha Satan was a job description. Do > you think the job of adversary was relegated to one entity or do you > think it was something other entities did as called for? > Betty > > > > > --- On Thu, 8/6/09, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 10:09 AM > > One thing to keep in mind in all of this is that words in English > that tend to have very static meanings, such as "God" or "gods," and > "angel" in Hebrew are much more generic. Thus 'el or 'elohim really > means "power" or "powers," and as I think you know, can even refer > to human beings, judges, rulers, and the like. The same with > "angels," the word is mal'ak, and has not "heavenly" connotation as > in English, but means simply "messenger" or "envoy," and thus > carries the notion of representation, not that of an entity or > essence of a certain being. > > One way then of thinking of this is in terms of our English word > "force." We know there are four "physical" forces that can be > identified by physicists: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong > and weak nuclear force. If we go beyond our atomically configured > world, detectable via our sense and instruments, the concept of > 'elohim or even "the" 'elohim touches upon other "forces," or > realities, some of which are spoken of in the Tanakh as "personal," > thus the "satan" among the "b'nai 'elohim" in the early chapters of > Job, etc. Calling Yehovah 'elohim, in the plural, with a singular > subject, is like saying the "force of all forces..." Thus Genesis > 1:1: "When the Force of all forces began to shape/form the heavens > and the earth, the earth was a desolate, empty wasteland...This > Force of all forces is otherwise known as 'El Elyon--thus "Force > Most High..." and the name given to Moshe is YeHoVaH, which means: > Will/Is/Was... > > Your other topic I will save for another time but it does interest > me... > > Hope that helps! > > James > > > On Aug 5, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: > >> James, >> Thanks for the reply. I am inclined to agree that there were "gods" >> or whatever they were over certain nations. The article also >> answers the question I have had about the giants surviving the >> flood. Apparently, they didn't. They merely were born after the >> flood as well as before. I listen to Coast to Coast and there are >> always people talking about aliens that came down to earth that >> were misunderstood as gods. I wonder it there could be any >> connection. People twist things around to be something they can >> believe. It's difficult for me to know where the lines are. Gods >> over nations might explain what is going on today. >> >> I asked a question of the dialogue some time back about why >> Christians continue to believe as they do. I meant it seriously. >> The response was that I was being "not nice". Bottom line, are >> their eyes blinded, are they not interested in the real truth, do >> they merely follow the crowd? Are the lies taught to so many people >> in seminary that they can't see the truth? I did. Why can't they? >> My son-in-law believes that Israel is merely another country, >> nothing special. There was a time when my daughter didn't have a >> Christmas tree. He also said that he believed the Bible, no matter >> what it said, even when he didn't understand it. I tend to question >> everything. >> >> Someone on the dialogue said that he/she asked God for His truth, >> not man's truth. This was the beginning of their journey to where >> they were now. The thing is that this is the same prayer I had and >> God took me where I am today. I guess I want to understand what to >> pray for my son-in-law. I pray now that God would turn his heart to >> see the truth, but I had a legitimate question. >> >> Thanks for listening. Take care. >> Betty >> >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 8/5/09, James Tabor wrote: >> >> From: James Tabor >> Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 2:07 PM >> >> Betty, I am sorry but I just have not been able to get back to this >> and I also fear it might be too complex to discuss via e-mail. What >> I would say in general is that there seem to be enough texts in the >> Hebrew Bible (and I restrict myself to that body of writings) to >> indicate a class of "beings," not humans, who are called the "b'nai >> 'Elohim." They would be very much along the lines of those referred >> to elsewhere as the mal'akim, but there is indication that they >> participate in some type of "council" of Elohim, with the Most >> High, whom we know as Yehovah...I am thinking here mainly of Psalm >> 82 and related texts. >> >> In terms of the variant texts, since the DSS copies of Deuteronomy >> do indeed agree with the LXX on the "b'nai 'Elohim" readings in >> Deut 32 I am inclined to go with those and see the MT as more of an >> interpretation. I realize this view of the MT is not shared by lots >> of people who take a more fundamentalist approach but I gave up my >> own textual fundamentalism years ago. >> >> That said, and as interesting as these things are, those "secret >> things" that belong to YHVH--this text is clear and has NO variants: >> >> "And now O Israel, what does YHVH your 'Elohim require of you, but >> to hold in awe YHVH your 'Elohim, to walk in all His ways, to love >> him, to serve YHVH your 'Elohim with all your heart and with all >> your soul" (Deut 10:12) >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> James >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Betty Eddy wrote: >> >>> James, >>> I am reading the information on the sons of Elohim, sons of gods >>> and you said you agreed with some of the information and disagreed >>> with some of it. Could you say which parts you disagreed with? >>> This is all confusing to me and when you add in the different >>> translations, I am over my head. I trust your judgment and know >>> you have a vast amount of knowledge to draw from. Thanks. >>> Betty Eddy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Fri, 7/24/09, James Tabor wrote: >>> >>> From: James Tabor >>> Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim >>> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >>> Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM >>> >>> On the Sabbath between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur the entire >>> chapter of Deuteronomy 32, called in Hebrew: Haazinu, literally, >>> "Let Us Cause ourselves to Hear!" (it is a Hiphil Imperative >>> Plural) is read all over the world by Jews who follow the annual >>> cycle of readings. The words are set in line-by-line poetic >>> rhythm, as some translations show. The text is a Song, referred to >>> subsequently as the "Song of Moses." It was recited by Moses under >>> inspiration to the entire nation and it reflects the prophetic >>> future of the mission and historical fortunes of the Israelite >>> people. One important thing to remember in reading this passage is >>> that it is not merely about the Jewish people, whose history after >>> the Babylonian Exile was shaped primarily around the tribe of >>> Judah, but it is a "Song" for all the tribes of Israel. If it is >>> read in that regard some of its stanzas and concepts are cast in a >>> much different light. These are among the last recorded words of >>> Moses. >>> >>> The Song begins with expressions of the unique nature of YHVH as >>> God of Israel. He is called the "Rock," that "begot you," the >>> "father that has purchased you," and the "Most High," which is the >>> ancient name El Elyon, used by the Abraham and those before him in >>> speaking of the Creator (see Gen 14:18-19). >>> >>> Beginning in 32:8 there are some important textual variations in >>> our various copies of Deuteronomy. The basic text used and >>> preserved by Jews for the past 1500 years, is called the Masoretic >>> text (MT). There is also a translation of the Hebrew, dating back >>> to 200 BCE, in Greek, that is called the Septuagint (LXX). And >>> more recently, there are copies of sections of Deuteronomy that >>> have survived as part of the library of the Dead Sea Scrolls. What >>> is most interesting is Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Deuteronomy >>> differ in some important ways from the Masoretic or traditional >>> text, and its readings are paralleled by the Greek Septuagint. >>> These variations have to do with the use of the term "sons of >>> Elohim" or in Hebrew, the b'nai 'Elohim. >>> >>> These were not taken too seriously until the discovery of the DSS, >>> since the LXX often has readings that differ from the MT >>> (Masoretic) text, and in traditional Judaism the received Hebrew >>> text is understood to be inviolate--letter for letter perfect. >>> However, when it was discovered that the HEBREW text of >>> Deuteronomy agreed with the Septuagint, against the MT, those >>> readings have been given much more attention and weight. Slowly >>> the scholars have begun to have more and more respect for the >>> LXX. By and large it is a very literal translation, and there is >>> now every indication that the translators were in fact translating >>> a Hebrew original that is different from the MT--however, one >>> values it. In other words, they were not just adding things and >>> being sloppy with their translation work. Often the differences >>> are not so important, when we compare the Qumran Hebrew Bible with >>> the MT, but in this case these variants seem quite significant. >>> Of course the Qumran copies are older than the MT by more than a >>> thousand years, so the discovery of these most ancient of Hebrew >>> texts raises all kinds of questions, both for the scholars and >>> traditional Judaism (and even fundamentalist Christianity). Here >>> are the differences, which I have put in Italics: >>> >>> MT (Masoretic text) reads: >>> Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their >>> inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the >>> borders of the peoples according to the number of the children of >>> Israel. >>> >>> LXX (Greek) reads: >>> Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he >>> separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations >>> according to the number of the angels of God. >>> >>> Qumran/DSS reads: >>> Deuteronomy 32:8: When the Most High gave to the nations their >>> inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he sest the >>> bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Elohim. >>> >>> Now this is really fascinating, in the light of the "B'nai Elohim" >>> passage in Genesis 6, and the separation of the nations after the >>> Flood in Gen 10-11, as both the "sons of Elohim" and the >>> "daughters of Adam" are mentioned. >>> >>> But it gets even more interesting when we read v. 43, the climax >>> of the Song. >>> >>> MT reads: >>> Deuteronomy 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He >>> doth avenge the blood of His servants, and does render vengeance >>> to His adversaries, and does make expiation for the land of His >>> people. >>> >>> LXX (Greek) reads: >>> Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the >>> angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, >>> and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he >>> will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, >>> and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that >>> hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. >>> >>> Qumran/DSS reads: >>> Rejoice O heavens, together with him, and bow down to him all you >>> sons of Elohim, for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and will >>> render vengeance to his enemies, and will recompense those who >>> hate him, and will atone for the land of his people. >>> >>> As with v. 8, you can see that the Qumran text essentially agrees >>> with the LXX, and in both cases the focus is on the "B'nai Elohim." >>> >>> The RSV and other modern translations have adopted the reading of >>> the LXX/DSS and other translations at least note it in the margin. >>> >>> The implications of these alternative readings, and the meaning of >>> the phrase "sons of Elohim," is uncertain. It seems to go back, >>> one way or the other, to Genesis 6, where this term is first used. >>> One interpretation makes these a group of "angelic" beings, while >>> the other sees them as part of a lineage that is traced in Genesis >>> 5, from Adam through Enoch, and finally down to Abraham. There is >>> no doubt that other sections of the Hebrew Bible, such as Psalm >>> 82, speak of certain "angelic" beings or "Messengers" as "sons of >>> Elohim," but even so, the English translation "angel" can be quite >>> misleading, since the root meaning of the Hebrew word, Ma'lak, is >>> simple "messenger," that is one sent with a mission. In fact, the >>> context in this "Song of Moses" seems to imply that the "sons of >>> Elohim" are in fact a lineage of human beings, the descendants of >>> whom are the "sons of Israel." Thus we get the language of "Is not >>> He your father that has bought you," earlier the song, and the >>> clear reference to "avenging the blood of his sons," which hardly >>> seems to be a reference to so-called "angels." >>> >>> If such be the case the DSS version would not necessarily be >>> different in meaning from that of the MT--the "sons of Elohim" >>> would in fact be the chosen "seed" of Abraham, that is the "sons >>> of Israel" or Jacob, his grandson. >>> >>> There is much more of interest in this "Song of Moses," such as >>> the mysterious references to "no-people," in 32:21 and the whole >>> concept of the "hiding of the Face" of God. >>> >>> Patricia Robbins had raised the larger question of how these >>> textual variants--and they are not just in the DSS and the LXX >>> (Septuagint), but also in various versions of the MT, would affect >>> something like the "Bible Codes" that many have made so much of. >>> My own view is that some of the Bible Codes, particularly those >>> that are visible on a single page, say at 50 letter sequences, are >>> valid and hard to deny for anyone. As it turns out those do not >>> seem to be much affected, if at all. For example, the word TORAH >>> spelled out at 50 letter intervals at the opening of Genesis, >>> Exodus, etc. The ones I would question are those found separated >>> by multiple pages, hundreds, even thousands of letters apart. I >>> think those have been shown by mathematicians to be bogus and they >>> end up being more like "fortune telling" than anything else. That >>> is my view, having followed this rather closely some years back >>> when Drosnin hit the scene. >>> >>> >>> >>> Wishing all a fruitful study, Shabbat Shalom! >>> >>> James Tabor >>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090811/42bc2194/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Tue Aug 11 23:50:46 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:50:46 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim References: <520057.68492.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2C10FEC9-6753-42F8-B484-C7B9B2519285@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This is helpful..not all that is bad or just wrong is "evil"......but all evil is bad. Isaac Mozenson has added much to the SWW site, and most of my internet time has been spent reading this material. Perhaps this is why this list is slow of late? (others reading also.).....AND I want to add, not because of "censorship"......to my knowledge only one post has been "not allowed". dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim Yes, it is hard to know what to take literally in these sorts of texts which are clearly different from a straight historical narrative. I do think notions of some kind of "inherent" Evil are dualistic and gnostic, and as Isaac Mozenson has just pointed out on the SWW site that "evil" as a translation for ra' in Hebrew is quite misleading. It means something more like "bad" or just "wrong." James _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090811/6c4db5c2/attachment.html From betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 20:08:06 2009 From: betty_m_eddy at yahoo.com (Betty Eddy) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <135889.61503.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I tried to open up Ross's pdf file and my computer said it cannot open the file from the internet. I believe I have the latest reader. Any suggestions? Betty --- On Tue, 8/11/09, Dave Cole wrote: From: Dave Cole Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 11:50 PM ? ? This is helpful..not all that is bad or just wrong is "evil"......but all evil is bad. ? Isaac Mozenson has added much to the SWW site, and most of my internet time has been spent reading?this material.? Perhaps this is why this list is slow of late? (others reading also.).....AND I want to add,? not because of "censorship"......to my knowledge only one post has been "not allowed". ? dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The Song of Moses...The B'nai Elohim Yes, it is hard to know what to take literally in these sorts of texts which are clearly different from a straight historical narrative. I do think notions of some kind of "inherent" Evil are dualistic and gnostic, and as Isaac Mozenson has just pointed out on the SWW site that "evil" as a translation for ra' in Hebrew is quite misleading. It means something more like "bad" or just "wrong." James _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090812/e81038f8/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:50:07 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:50:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 Message-ID: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> Shalom to all, It's getting hard to figure out which list is functioning, and which isn't, so I thought I'd write now, while people might still be reading. James wrote a very interesting piece the other day in which he pointed out how much of the end of the Torah is actually Moshe's "farewell" speech to the Children of Israel. Personally, as many of you know, I have been obsessed with the concept expressed in Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 - * "Let us go up and inherit the Land of Israel, for we are surely able"* ** * *For reasons that are still not clear to me, I have been given a "do-over" and will, G-d willing, get to live the rest of my life in the Land of Israel, beginning 24 days from now. I remain haunted not merely by the circumstances, compromises and arrangements that needed to be made to make this amazing 'miracle' (in my eyes it is) come true. But I cannot shake the fact that Moshe Rabbenu, Moses our teacher - who led us when we needed to be led....never got to 'crossover' into Eretz Yisrael; but somehow, for some reason, I will....the thought gives me 'goose bumps' - and makes me feel that I am going to fulfill a role, complete a task, or something of that nature. My decision to make the move (finally...), and go on Aliyah (literally, 'to ascend') was made last summer. I had to wait an entire year so that Kyra (my youngest daughter) would not lose her new immigrant benefits, since she went on Aliyah before the age of 21 (and would be considered part of MY family). Over this last year I have been 'tested' repeatedly, and pushed to the limit, more times then I can even count - and I am certain they were all tests; tests for me to truly prove that I would do *anything *to be able to live in Israel. Some of you know that I have begun writing a book - on the Lost Tribes of Israel; of course, from the perspective that I've lived, over the last 17 years. I have spent the last six months researching it, and hope to be able to complete it by next Pesah. But that is only part of what I am going to Israel for (besides fulfilling the Mitzva of Living in Israel), and that will be to help advance the 'cause' of my Ephramite cousins. And for that, I will need your prayers....as well as suggestions. The only really good thing about an email 'relationship' is that you never have to leave - you're always 'there' - a few hours earlier, a few hours later...whatever. But right now is 'crunch time' for me - the shipper is coming on Monday and Tuesday, August 17 & 18, to load ALL of my possessions onto the lift, which will sale (G-d willing safely!) across the Atlantic. On Friday, August 21, my immigration Visa will be ready at the Israeli consulate. I will live in the shell of an apartment (no tables, chairs, etc) until the end of the month, when my lease is over. The first few days of September I will spend with friends, and on September 7th - go HOME. As of September 8th, my contact information will be: Email: YoungBarzel at gmail.com Address: Hanoch Young 51/1 Rehov Yigal Yadin Modi'in, 71700 ISRAEL Phone: (in Israel) 050-905-5331 (from the U.S.) 011-972-50-905-5331 ** I hope to get an American phone # after settling in As of next week, I will have time on my hands (and hopefully a laptop to use, LOL), and would be glad to be in touch with all of you who have reached out to me. May you all be strong and courageous to do the will of Avinu Malkenu, our Father in heaven. Looking forward to seeing you in Israel... B'Ahava Rabba (With much love), * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090812/73964765/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Wed Aug 12 22:21:07 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:21:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 In-Reply-To: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, Just wanted to say I enjoyed meeting you in charlotte in April. I wished we had more time to talk. As you go to the land, walked thru it, and Inherit it for all of us. Remember, to keep us all posted on the latest happenings and when you visit the western wall, remember to offer a prayer up for all your "family" left back here in the states. I was talking to Tracy Osborne the other day on the phone,(he wanted to buy me a cup of coffee, I think) and I commented I wonder if jokingly , we could refer to your moving to Israel like a "rapture" of sorts. Maybe, it wasn't as funny as it sounded the first time. At any rate, keep us in your thoughts and prayers and we will do the same for you. If I make it back to the land again, I will make a point to look you up. Also, if your going to beat up Christian missionaries try to be smart about it and not get arrested and thrown in jail. Seriously, I was reading a few days ago about King David's anointing(three times he was anointed) once as a young lad, when he became king over Judah and when Israel(the ten tribes) decided that God was with Judah and they wanted to join up. Regardless of what the Christian world thanks, one day they will have to humble themselves to Judah. When they grab your zit zit Hanoch, In cowboy fashion look back at them and tell them. "Hang on boys, your in for the ride of your life'. B'Ahava Rabba (With much love), Marvin Hyde _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 Shalom to all, It's getting hard to figure out which list is functioning, and which isn't, so I thought I'd write now, while people might still be reading. James wrote a very interesting piece the other day in which he pointed out how much of the end of the Torah is actually Moshe's "farewell" speech to the Children of Israel. Personally, as many of you know, I have been obsessed with the concept expressed in Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 - "Let us go up and inherit the Land of Israel, for we are surely able" For reasons that are still not clear to me, I have been given a "do-over" and will, G-d willing, get to live the rest of my life in the Land of Israel, beginning 24 days from now. I remain haunted not merely by the circumstances, compromises and arrangements that needed to be made to make this amazing 'miracle' (in my eyes it is) come true. But I cannot shake the fact that Moshe Rabbenu, Moses our teacher - who led us when we needed to be led....never got to 'crossover' into Eretz Yisrael; but somehow, for some reason, I will....the thought gives me 'goose bumps' - and makes me feel that I am going to fulfill a role, complete a task, or something of that nature. My decision to make the move (finally...), and go on Aliyah (literally, 'to ascend') was made last summer. I had to wait an entire year so that Kyra (my youngest daughter) would not lose her new immigrant benefits, since she went on Aliyah before the age of 21 (and would be considered part of MY family). Over this last year I have been 'tested' repeatedly, and pushed to the limit, more times then I can even count - and I am certain they were all tests; tests for me to truly prove that I would do anything to be able to live in Israel. Some of you know that I have begun writing a book - on the Lost Tribes of Israel; of course, from the perspective that I've lived, over the last 17 years. I have spent the last six months researching it, and hope to be able to complete it by next Pesah. But that is only part of what I am going to Israel for (besides fulfilling the Mitzva of Living in Israel), and that will be to help advance the 'cause' of my Ephramite cousins. And for that, I will need your prayers....as well as suggestions. The only really good thing about an email 'relationship' is that you never have to leave - you're always 'there' - a few hours earlier, a few hours later...whatever. But right now is 'crunch time' for me - the shipper is coming on Monday and Tuesday, August 17 & 18, to load ALL of my possessions onto the lift, which will sale (G-d willing safely!) across the Atlantic. On Friday, August 21, my immigration Visa will be ready at the Israeli consulate. I will live in the shell of an apartment (no tables, chairs, etc) until the end of the month, when my lease is over. The first few days of September I will spend with friends, and on September 7th - go HOME. As of September 8th, my contact information will be: Email: YoungBarzel at gmail.com Address: Hanoch Young 51/1 Rehov Yigal Yadin Modi'in, 71700 ISRAEL Phone: (in Israel) 050-905-5331 (from the U.S.) 011-972-50-905-5331 ** I hope to get an American phone # after settling in As of next week, I will have time on my hands (and hopefully a laptop to use, LOL), and would be glad to be in touch with all of you who have reached out to me. May you all be strong and courageous to do the will of Avinu Malkenu, our Father in heaven. Looking forward to seeing you in Israel... B'Ahava Rabba (With much love), Hanoch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090812/da2c9984/attachment.html From zitro4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 22:50:10 2009 From: zitro4 at yahoo.com (G. Ortiz) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 In-Reply-To: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <914240.93270.qm@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Just a thought Hanoch: I have followed the counting of your going home, since I met you at the UIWU conference this year, and can't believe is almost that time. As I read your contact information I was wondering if you have considered getting a Magic Jack ($19,99), with a US number, which you can use when you travel. My best friend, who went to Israel in March and stayed for a couple of months (she is planning on making Aliyah as well), got one, and that's how we communicated. Just a tought - Mazel Tov, and may you prosper in eveything you do! Gisela --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:50 PM Shalom to all, ? ???? It's getting hard to figure out which list is functioning, and which isn't, so I thought I'd write now, while people might still be reading.? James wrote a very interesting piece the other day in which he pointed out how much of the end of the Torah is actually Moshe's "farewell" speech to the Children of Israel. Personally, as many of you know, I have been obsessed with the concept expressed in Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 - ???????????????????? "Let us go up and inherit the Land of Israel, for we are surely able" ? ??? For reasons that are still not clear to me, I have been given a "do-over" and will, G-d willing,?get to live the rest of my life in the Land of Israel, beginning 24 days from now.? I remain haunted not merely by the circumstances, compromises and arrangements that needed to be made to make this amazing 'miracle' (in my eyes it is) come true.? But I cannot shake the fact that Moshe Rabbenu, Moses our teacher - who led us when we needed to be led....never got to 'crossover' into Eretz Yisrael;? but somehow, for some reason, I will....the thought gives me 'goose bumps' - and makes me feel that I am going to fulfill a role, complete a task, or something of that nature.? ? ??? My decision to make the move (finally...), and go on Aliyah (literally, 'to ascend') was made last summer.? I had to wait an entire year so that Kyra (my youngest daughter) would not lose her new immigrant benefits, since she went on Aliyah before the age of 21 (and would be considered part of MY family).? Over this last year I have been 'tested' repeatedly, and pushed to the limit, more times then I can even count - and I am certain they were all tests;? tests for me to truly prove that I would do anything to be able to live in Israel.? ? ?? Some of you know that I have begun writing a book - on the Lost Tribes of Israel; of course, from the perspective that I've lived, over the last 17 years.? I have spent the last six months researching it, and hope to be able to complete it by next Pesah.? But that is only part of what I am going to Israel for (besides fulfilling the Mitzva of Living in Israel), and that will be to help advance the 'cause' of my Ephramite cousins.? And for that, I will need your prayers....as well as suggestions. ? ?? The only really good thing about an email 'relationship' is that you never have to leave - you're always 'there' - a few hours earlier, a few hours later...whatever.? But right now is 'crunch time' for me - the shipper is coming on Monday and Tuesday, August 17 & 18,?to load ALL of my possessions onto the lift, which will sale (G-d willing safely!) across the Atlantic.? On Friday, August 21, my immigration Visa will be ready at the Israeli consulate.? I will live in the shell of an apartment (no tables, chairs, etc) until the end of the month, when my lease is over.? The first few days of September I will spend with friends, and on September 7th - go HOME.? ? ??As of September 8th, my contact information will be: ? Email:????????????? YoungBarzel at gmail.com ? Address:??????????Hanoch Young ???????????????? 51/1 Rehov Yigal Yadin ????????????????????? Modi'in, 71700 ??????????????????????? ??ISRAEL ? Phone:???? (in Israel)? 050-905-5331 ?????? (from the U.S.)??011-972-50-905-5331????? ** I hope to get an American phone # after settling in ? ????? As of next week, I will have time on my hands (and hopefully a laptop to use, LOL), and would be glad to be in touch with all of you who have reached out to me.? ? ??? ?May you all be strong and courageous to do the will of Avinu Malkenu, our Father in heaven.? Looking forward to seeing you in Israel... ? ???? B'Ahava Rabba (With much love), ??????????????? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090812/863214bd/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 13 00:32:09 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:32:09 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 In-Reply-To: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908121750o4bcb0ad0hf186152a56f16449@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hear you loud and clear my friend. So far as I know Dialogue is clicking along but as David Cole mentioned earlier, there is so much interesting stuff going on over on the Synagogue without Walls, especially with the likes of Isaac Mozeson joining and posting some amazing things, and yours truly has been putting up quite a bit of material as well, that the attention of some of us has been draw over there. But to the subject... Our excitement for you and with you only grows. Thanks for your recent communications. Sounds like the coming days will be a whirlwind, but one that blows you East not West...amazing! I was just thinking, YHVH willing, the next time I see you will be in the Land! In fact, I have a hunch a bunch of us will see you during the coming year. VERY excited about the book! Warmest love and best wishes Hanoch, James On Aug 12, 2009, at 8:50 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Shalom to all, > > It's getting hard to figure out which list is functioning, and > which isn't, so I thought I'd write now, while people might still be > reading. James wrote a very interesting piece the other day in > which he pointed out how much of the end of the Torah is actually > Moshe's "farewell" speech to the Children of Israel. Personally, as > many of you know, I have been obsessed with the concept expressed in > Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 - > "Let us go up and inherit the Land of Israel, > for we are surely able" > > For reasons that are still not clear to me, I have been given a > "do-over" and will, G-d willing, get to live the rest of my life in > the Land of Israel, beginning 24 days from now. I remain haunted > not merely by the circumstances, compromises and arrangements that > needed to be made to make this amazing 'miracle' (in my eyes it is) > come true. But I cannot shake the fact that Moshe Rabbenu, Moses > our teacher - who led us when we needed to be led....never got to > 'crossover' into Eretz Yisrael; but somehow, for some reason, I > will....the thought gives me 'goose bumps' - and makes me feel that > I am going to fulfill a role, complete a task, or something of that > nature. > > My decision to make the move (finally...), and go on Aliyah > (literally, 'to ascend') was made last summer. I had to wait an > entire year so that Kyra (my youngest daughter) would not lose her > new immigrant benefits, since she went on Aliyah before the age of > 21 (and would be considered part of MY family). Over this last year > I have been 'tested' repeatedly, and pushed to the limit, more times > then I can even count - and I am certain they were all tests; tests > for me to truly prove that I would do anything to be able to live in > Israel. > > Some of you know that I have begun writing a book - on the Lost > Tribes of Israel; of course, from the perspective that I've lived, > over the last 17 years. I have spent the last six months > researching it, and hope to be able to complete it by next Pesah. > But that is only part of what I am going to Israel for (besides > fulfilling the Mitzva of Living in Israel), and that will be to help > advance the 'cause' of my Ephramite cousins. And for that, I will > need your prayers....as well as suggestions. > > The only really good thing about an email 'relationship' is that > you never have to leave - you're always 'there' - a few hours > earlier, a few hours later...whatever. But right now is 'crunch > time' for me - the shipper is coming on Monday and Tuesday, August > 17 & 18, to load ALL of my possessions onto the lift, which will > sale (G-d willing safely!) across the Atlantic. On Friday, August > 21, my immigration Visa will be ready at the Israeli consulate. I > will live in the shell of an apartment (no tables, chairs, etc) > until the end of the month, when my lease is over. The first few > days of September I will spend with friends, and on September 7th - > go HOME. > > As of September 8th, my contact information will be: > > Email: YoungBarzel at gmail.com > > Address: Hanoch Young > 51/1 Rehov Yigal Yadin > Modi'in, 71700 > ISRAEL > > Phone: (in Israel) 050-905-5331 > (from the U.S.) 011-972-50-905-5331 ** I hope to get an > American phone # after settling in > > As of next week, I will have time on my hands (and hopefully a > laptop to use, LOL), and would be glad to be in touch with all of > you who have reached out to me. > > May you all be strong and courageous to do the will of Avinu > Malkenu, our Father in heaven. Looking forward to seeing you in > Israel... > > B'Ahava Rabba (With much love), > Hanoch > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/14ace768/attachment.html From rossknichols at me.com Thu Aug 13 03:58:59 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:58:59 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah class is posted Message-ID: My teaching on Torah reading Ekev is posted on my site. Check it out. Sent from my iPhone From jid at westnet.com.au Thu Aug 13 05:06:32 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:06:32 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30] Message-ID: <4A83E5A8.3000703@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/9d42bec3/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar (Numbers) 13:30 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:50:07 -0400 Size: 12584 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/9d42bec3/attachment.eml From chcashmore at hotmail.com Thu Aug 13 05:28:51 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:28:51 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Bamidbar Message-ID: Well put Marvin - I can relate to what I think you're trying to say. I for one will certainly be holding onto Hanoch's skirt saying We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'!!! _________________________________________________________________ What goes online, stays online Check the daily blob for the latest on what's happening around the web http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/01a25fe7/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Thu Aug 13 01:46:57 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:46:57 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Freedoms of Choice and Speech Message-ID: <200908130646.n7D6krUE006813@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Dear Friends of the Dialogue list, It is obvious that the the usual volume of posts to the dialogue list is drastically down, and the living room setup has not taken off as it was hoped it would. Am advancing the theory, that participation is down, because many fear that they will be "censored" or do not want to be censored and have refrained from subjecting themselves to it. In short, be it fear, distaste, or discouragement, the fact is that the silence speaks many unvoiced opinions, whose common denominator is lack of participation. While it is true that participation on any discussion list ebbs and flows as the wave activity of the sea, I doubt that we are just in the doldrums. There is a reason, why some are not hoisting sails and flags, firing up their boilers, or manning the oars and the steering wheels. Some may be contemplating what to do and are looking at maps and charts. Some may be looking at the cargo, that is accumulating on the docks, or deteriorating and reaching critical stage in the holds of their vessels. Whatever the case, I think the latter is most important, because if the loads are not handled fairly soon, the members of the list may set course elsewhere, or find themselves in the midst of deteriorating cargo and exploding tempers, i.e. abruptly "unloaded cargo," and damaged or ruined relationships. In any case, if the load is not handled, it is liable to cause damage to many near and far. It seems to me, that the reason for the lack of activity, and a curious silence about "moderation" of posts is the perceived notion that it is the 800 pound gorilla of perceived censorship that sits in the midst of the dialogue list and the "living room" as well. What makes this situation severely disturbing, is that no one is allowed to talk about it, because it has become "taboo" to do so. This setup has all the classic ingredients for a crazy-making situation. People are between a rock and a hard place, and are not allowed, or are unable for some reason to talk about it. By the way, this is also the classic setting in the world of psychological schemas for suicide. I submit that this matrix for dissolution also applies to groups, not just individuals. True, sometimes drastic measures are necessary to save any union, as was demonstrated by Abraham Lincoln when he suspended habeas corpus in the midst of the Civil War. In extreme cases it becomes necessary to bar someone from a discussion forum. I concur with eventually prohibiting certain types of people from being on the list, if they are repeatedly abusive and persistently toot a horn that is counter to the purposes of the list. Before that necessary eventuality, I think it is more supportive and constructive for all concerned by first exposing a protagonist or an antagonist to the aggregate opinions of the list. We can all then choose to be attracted or distanced by the range of many voices. Allowing such liberty to flourish is also more effective in encouraging all to speak up as they wish and practice how to speak in a challenging way yet with diplomacy. The case in point is the recent one where some left the dialogue list on their own accord. I for one wrote something that I think was positive to them, but it never made the list. My guess is that it never got to the intended target, whom I intended to draw back into the midst of the list for reconsideration of their stance. Others wrote some things more stern and challenging. It seems that members like the ones that left and all others need to consider all types of opinions, and then decide which way they want to go. They cannot do that, if those opinions are not allowed to be aired. This brings me to the other "taboo" subject, that of voicing personal beliefs by and everyone of us. This is a sticky wicket, but it must be brought up for the sake of encouraging others to freely voice their opinions about anything. An example of that is one of my opinions, which I recommend to be a policy for this list. It is that the conversion attempts on Jews by Messianics and other Christians be not officially espoused or promoted on this list. It so happens that such evangelizing missionary activities are at an all time high in Israel at the present. Now, I do not believe that such activity was ever was promoted or was an issue on the dialogue list, and am bringing it up only as an example of certain number of limited written or unwritten "rules" that we all need to abide by. Yes, we need some rules. Yet, personal beliefs are what motivate all of us. If members want to discuss them, it is their right and should do so, since we are all wrestling with our baggages, and need to sort things out as we are led by the spirit of God. Frankly, we, the returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones, and those who join us, need to appeal to God for it a lot, to enlighten and empower us as to what we need to do, and to guide us in gaining "knowledge of God," (Hos. 6:6). This is one of "my campaigns" and axes to grind. Eventually, those who want to be in another camp where certain subjects are paramount, and their beliefs are supported, will choose to be there. Those who want to remain active to whatever degree in the dialogue list will do so. Truth, be it re Jesus, whether he was / is the Messiah, who his early followers were, what we can learn from Judaism, seeking what "the ancient path" really was and is, meaning of words, translations, issues and developments, personal fears, inspirations or anything else,that we are allowed to bring to discuss with a truth and clarity seeking spirit, can only profit us all. We do not all need to contribute opinions on all subjects. However, we need to be free to discuss anything and everything germane to seeking the Truth of God. This email re freedom of speech and freedom of choice is one of them. That is what dialogue is, or at least supposed to be as I see it. I am extending a reinviting hand to ALL those who left the list and those who distanced themselves from participation. If they want to return and stay on the list they are welcome, at least by me, to work through the transition. and reintegration. I appeal to the powers that be, to forward this email to them, and invite them back into the list. If they still choose to leave a second time, at least it will be with the blessing of all of us and with the agency of all our opinions freely voiced and given a chance to draw them in. The road homeward is pretty broad at this time. It needs to be so at the beginning of our journey homeward. We come in all stripes and colors and with baggages filled with all sorts of experiences and concomitant mixtures of truth and error. I surmise that later, as we get closer and closer to Zion, and where we ought to be as God wants us to be, the road will become increasingly narrow. Now we should all be able to walk freely homeward on that road at our own pace, sorting out our baggages along the way. It is not easy, and not everything goes, there are some rules of decorum. Some will find their walk with some more comfortable and compatible than with some others. Ideological and personality clashes will be inevitable; we are all human. We are here to be helped by the Guidance of God and by each other for the purpose of working them out. The first thing that Jacob tells us to do at the end of days is, "Gather yourselves together." Obviously, an important reason to do that, is to benefit from the groups that we form. If we do not do that now on this list, it will be very awkward to be at a Sukkot gathering with those who have withdrawn from us on this list. Some on the list may not even attend for that reason to avoid such a quandary. Feelers for making peace need to be extended now, and this is one of them. It is called "dialogue." By opening up the list to free speech, we will facilitate that process. Perhaps we will even be given some portion of, or a harbinger of "the covenant of peace," IF we speak boldly for the Truth. I recommend that the censorship be taken off, and the separated brethren be invited back into the dialogue list. Then we all should see how the participation will pick up and dispositions will change. The "choice," is before us. This is the way of the Torah, it is also the American way; it is called the inalienable right to freedom of choice. This is the time to do it, in the midst of the seven weeks of consolation. I recommend that we all pray about it, and chime in on it as we are led by the Spirit of God. I suggest we all ask for clear vision of what to do, and EXPECT an answer. We are supposed to listen to the "still small voice of God"..... Shema Israel! We all have a lot to learn..... and we all want our names written in The Book of Life. Steve PS: I suggest that we all set course for "Truth or Consequences," like the town in New Mexico. "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090812/e227de80/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Aug 13 10:11:14 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:11:14 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: The Gathering Storm Message-ID: <609624A3CE0D4F7FB8A23873DB2FF088@TESTPC> If our representatives in government "at all levels" are not "reeled-in", this to shall come to past. Don't know who Jerry Wilson might be but he's said it better than I ever could. Friends, Please note the excellent piece of art (The Gathering Storm) that follows my ranting. When the storm finally hits (and it will), those of you who supported the Obama administration will be affected as well. It won't just be us gun owners or Flat Taxers, or Pro-Lifers that get hit. You'll be right there next to us. You see, you all thought the Conservatives were nut cases. You know, all of us who believe in God, small government, the Second Amendment, etc. And you thought you could just go back to sleep after the election was over. In your world, America will continue as before. You'll still have the same rights, the same nice house, the same big screen television - it's all good. After all, your high school football team won and the other team lost - go team! Even if you have bothered to look up from the daily grind since Nov 4th, you dismissed everything that has occurred as "politics as usual" - "the same old stuff". In the end, it'll all be OK won't it? Not this time. There are a growing number of citizens in the US that are ready to fight to shut down the government's grab of personal freedom, it's blatant abuse of the constitution, and it's attempt to replace the American way of life with socialism. You have to listen carefully to hear them, but they are there. I won't start that fight, but when it goes down I will join it. As for you, why. you'll be shocked because you didn't see it coming. And eventually you'll be saddened when you see that we have truly lost the way of life with which you grew up. You'll be saddened that your children and grandchildren live in a socialist, government-controlled gulag where their every movement from cradle to grave is tracked by the government. But most of all, you'll be saddened by the death of friends and relatives who are brave enough to fight and die for something they believe in. You know, McCain wasn't much of a candidate. I'll give you that. He was the lesser of two evils for most of us. I don't blame you for not voting for him since, at the time, you didn't know what we all know now. But at least John McCain was an American. He was a supporter of the American way of life and he understood that you can't negotiate with terrorists. He understood and appreciated the sacrifice made by my father and other members of the Greatest Generation. Mark my words friends. All across America groups are forming. They are forming out of anger and out of desperation at the thought of losing America. They're not militia groups, terrorists as the Department of Homeland security would have you believe; they are Americans, loyal to the constitution. They are mothers and fathers and grandparents. They belong to groups like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, the Peaceful Resistance, the Constitution Party, the Young Conservatives, the 9/12 Project, and Grassfire. Right now they are fragmented, each focused on their own cause. But sometime in the next two years, our government is going to do something really stupid and these groups will come together. Watch for it, wait for it.get ready. It will happen. When that event happens, whatever "it" is, our great country is going to plunge into chaos for a while. I pray to God that we make it through that time and emerge a stronger, smarter country. Jerry Wilson Live Free or Die Fighting _____ _____ _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.49/2295 - Release Date: 08/10/09 18:19:00 __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4332 (20090813) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/c5860770/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 36526 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/c5860770/attachment.jpe From gets52000 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 13 23:26:45 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Freedoms of Choice and Speech In-Reply-To: <200908130646.n7D6krUE006813@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <682161.96107.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Steve, ? I don't think the problem ever was free speech. My feeling is that the people who disenrolled themselves from the original dialgue list was because it became too personal. There are those who joined the list solely to discuss Scriptural topics. They have a strong community, family and friends who they share their struggles, lives, surgeries, birthdays, prayer requests, hopes, dreams etc. with. They didn't want to be faced with mounds of email that had little relevance to them. Also I feel they were looking at a safety issue with this being a public forum. ? There is an issue tho that there are those on this list?who do not have the luxury of being surrounded by like minded Biblical faith community, family and friends. A true Synagogue Without Walls has to take that into consideration. An all encompassing family via Internet. Wow! What a task! ? I have a pretty good community surrounding me but nothing like the people I have met on here. Even though we are all at different levels in our walk, I find no judgement, people who are willing to listen to every thought whether they agree or disagree, people who really want to know what Scripture says and want to do it and truly want to love their neighbor as themself. ? I have joined both groups and it can be a pain to know which to write where but I am too nosy to not be in both. I have no problem hitting the delete button if it ever gets too much. I also will have no problem leaving the list with no ado if it isn't what I thought I was joining. ? Susie --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Freedoms of Choice and Speech To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 11:46 PM Dear Friends of the Dialogue list, It is obvious? that the the usual volume of posts to the dialogue list is drastically down, and the living room setup has not taken off as it was hoped it would.? Am advancing the theory, that participation is down, because many fear that they will be "censored" or do not want to be censored and have refrained from subjecting themselves to it.? In short, be it fear, distaste, or discouragement, the fact is that the silence speaks many unvoiced opinions, whose common denominator is lack of participation.? While it is true that participation on any discussion list ebbs and flows as the wave activity of the sea, I doubt that we are just in the doldrums. There is a reason, why some are not hoisting sails and flags, firing up their boilers, or manning the oars and the steering wheels.? Some may be contemplating what to do and are looking at maps and charts. Some may be looking at the cargo, that is accumulating on the docks, or deteriorating and reaching critical stage in the holds of their vessels.? Whatever the case, I think the latter is most important, because if the loads are not handled fairly soon, the members of the list may set course elsewhere, or find themselves in the midst of deteriorating cargo and exploding tempers, i.e. abruptly "unloaded cargo," and damaged or ruined relationships.? In any case, if the load is not handled, it is liable to cause damage to many near and far. It seems to me, that the reason for the lack of activity, and a curious silence about "moderation" of posts is the perceived notion that it is the 800 pound gorilla of perceived censorship that sits in the midst of the dialogue list and the "living room" as well.? What makes this situation severely disturbing, is that no one is allowed to talk about it, because it has become "taboo" to do so.? This setup has all the classic ingredients for a crazy-making situation.? People are between a rock and a hard place, and are not allowed, or are unable for some reason to talk about it.? By the way, this is also the classic setting in the world of psychological schemas for suicide.? I submit that this matrix for dissolution also applies to groups, not just individuals. True, sometimes drastic measures are necessary to save any union, as was demonstrated by Abraham Lincoln when he suspended habeas corpus in the midst of the Civil War.? In extreme cases it becomes necessary to bar someone from a discussion forum.? I concur with eventually prohibiting certain types of people from being on the list, if they are repeatedly abusive and persistently toot a horn that is counter to the purposes of the list.? Before that necessary eventuality, I think it is more supportive and constructive for all concerned by first exposing a protagonist or an antagonist to the aggregate opinions of the list.? We can all then choose to be attracted or distanced by the range of many voices.??? Allowing such liberty to flourish is also more effective in encouraging all to speak up as they wish and practice how to speak in a challenging way yet with diplomacy.? The case in point is the recent one where some left the dialogue list on their own accord.? I for one wrote something that I think was positive to them, but it never made the list.? My guess is that it never got to the intended target, whom I intended to draw back into the midst of the list for reconsideration of their stance. Others wrote some things more stern and challenging. It seems that members like the ones that left and all others need to consider all types of opinions, and then decide which way they want to go.? They cannot do that, if those opinions are not allowed to be aired. This brings me to the other "taboo" subject, that of voicing personal beliefs by and everyone of us.? This is a sticky wicket, but it must be brought up for the sake of encouraging others to freely voice their opinions about anything.? An example of that is one of my opinions, which I recommend to be a policy for this list.? It is that the conversion attempts on Jews by Messianics and other Christians be not officially espoused or promoted on this list.? It so happens that such evangelizing missionary activities are at an all time high in Israel at the present. Now, I do not believe that such activity was ever was promoted or was an issue on the dialogue list, and am bringing it up only as an example of certain number of limited written or unwritten "rules" that we all need to abide by.? Yes, we need some rules. Yet, personal beliefs are what motivate all of us.? If members want to discuss them, it is their right and should do so, since we are all wrestling with our baggages, and need to sort things out as we are led by the spirit of God.? Frankly, we, the returnees from the Valley of Dry Bones, and those who join us, need to appeal to God for it a lot, to enlighten and empower us as to what we need to do, and to guide us in gaining "knowledge of God," (Hos. 6:6).? This is one of "my campaigns" and axes to grind.? Eventually, those who want to be in another camp where certain subjects are paramount, and their beliefs are supported, will choose to be there.? Those who want to remain active to whatever degree in the dialogue list will do so.? Truth, be it re Jesus, whether he was / is the Messiah, who his early followers were, what we can learn from Judaism, seeking what "the ancient path" really was and is, meaning of words, translations, issues and developments, personal fears, inspirations or anything else,that we are allowed to bring to discuss with a truth and clarity seeking spirit, can only profit us all.? We do not all need to contribute opinions on all subjects.? However, we need to be free to discuss anything and everything germane to seeking the Truth of God. This email re freedom of speech and freedom of choice is one of them. That? is what dialogue is, or at least supposed to be as I see it.? I am extending a reinviting hand to ALL those who left the list and those who distanced themselves from participation.? If they want to return and stay on the list they are welcome, at least by me, to work through the transition. and reintegration.? I appeal to the powers that be, to forward this email to them, and invite them back into the list. If they still choose to leave a second time, at least it will be with the blessing of all of us and with the agency of all our opinions freely voiced and given a chance to draw them in. The road homeward is pretty broad at this time. It needs to be so at the beginning of our journey homeward.? We come in all stripes and colors and with baggages filled with all sorts of experiences and concomitant mixtures of truth and error.? I surmise that later, as we get closer and closer to Zion, and where we ought to be as God wants us to be, the road will become increasingly narrow.? Now we should all be able to walk freely homeward on that road at our own pace, sorting out our baggages along the way.?? It is not easy, and not everything goes, there are some rules of decorum. Some will find their walk with some more comfortable and compatible than with some others.? Ideological and personality clashes will be inevitable; we are all human.? We are here to be helped by the Guidance of God and by each other for the purpose of working them out.? The first thing that Jacob tells us to do at the end of days is, "Gather yourselves together."? Obviously, an important reason to do that, is to benefit from the groups that we form.? If we do not do that now on this list, it will be very awkward to be at a Sukkot gathering with those who have withdrawn from us on this list.? Some on the list may not even attend for that reason to avoid such a quandary.? Feelers for making peace need to be extended now, and this is one of them. It is called "dialogue." By opening up the list to free speech, we will facilitate that process.? Perhaps we will even be given some portion of, or a harbinger of "the covenant of peace,"? IF we speak boldly for the Truth.? I recommend that? the censorship be taken off, and the separated brethren be invited back into the dialogue list.? Then we all should see how the participation will pick up and dispositions will change.? The "choice," is before us.? This is the way of the Torah, it is also the American way; it is called the inalienable right to freedom of choice. This is the time to do it, in the midst of the seven weeks of consolation.? I recommend that we all pray about it, and chime in on it as we are led by the Spirit of God.? I suggest we all ask for clear vision of what to do, and EXPECT an answer.? We are supposed to listen to the "still small voice of God"..... Shema Israel!? We all have a lot to learn..... and we all want our names written in The Book of Life. Steve PS: I suggest that we all set course for "Truth or Consequences," like the town in New Mexico. "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090813/e58d6815/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 14 02:47:12 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 00:47:12 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] FW: The Gathering Storm In-Reply-To: <609624A3CE0D4F7FB8A23873DB2FF088@TESTPC> References: <609624A3CE0D4F7FB8A23873DB2FF088@TESTPC> Message-ID: <200908140747.n7E7l8Ow015481@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Marvyn, Thanks for this great piece by Jerry Wilson. Am of the opinion, that this storm is underway, and it will promote a national chaos of an unprecedented nature... and the powers that be are getting ready for it, because they know that the "fundamental changes" that they want to affect will cause a backlash. It seems that there are still several roads ahead of us, which we can choose by how we act as a nation, i.e. how we choose righteousness and do that which is right, as put down in the Constitution by the Founding Fathers. If we do not choose those values and stand up for them in the face of this UN-American president, his socialist gang, and their supporters in the blue states, we will have increasingly less roads into the future to choose from. God will make the harsh choices of correction for us and we will have to go through the great cleansing to come. Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." At 08:11 AM 8/13/2009, you wrote: > >If our representatives in government "at all >levels" are not "reeled-in", this to shall come to past. > > >Don't know who Jerry Wilson might be but he's >said it better than I ever could. > >[] > > > >Friends, >Please note the excellent piece of art (The >Gathering Storm) that follows my ranting. >When the storm finally hits (and it will), those >of you who supported the Obama administration >will be affected as well. It won?t just be us >gun owners or Flat Taxers, or Pro-Lifers that >get hit. You?ll be right there next to us. >You see, you all thought the Conservatives were >nut cases. You know, all of us who believe in >God, small government, the Second Amendment, >etc. And you thought you could just go back to >sleep after the election was over. In your >world, America will continue as before. You?ll >still have the same rights, the same nice house, >the same big screen television ? it?s all good. >After all, your high school football team won >and the other team lost ? go team! Even if you >have bothered to look up from the daily grind >since Nov 4th, you dismissed everything that has >occurred as ?politics as usual? ? ?the same old stuff?. >In the end, it?ll all be OK won?t it? >Not this time. There are a growing number of >citizens in the US that are ready to fight to >shut down the government?s grab of personal >freedom, it?s blatant abuse of the constitution, >and it?s attempt to replace the American way of >life with socialism. You have to listen >carefully to hear them, but they are there. I >won?t start that fight, but when it goes down I will join it. >As for you, why you?ll be shocked because you >didn?t see it coming. And eventually you?ll be >saddened when you see that we have truly lost >the way of life with which you grew up. You?ll >be saddened that your children and grandchildren >live in a socialist, government-controlled gulag >where their every movement from cradle to grave >is tracked by the government. But most of all, >you?ll be saddened by the death of friends and >relatives who are brave enough to fight and die for something they believe in. >You know, McCain wasn?t much of a candidate. >I?ll give you that. He was the lesser of two >evils for most of us. I don?t blame you for not >voting for him since, at the time, you didn?t >know what we all know now. But at least John >McCain was an American. He was a supporter of >the American way of life and he understood that >you can?t negotiate with terrorists. He >understood and appreciated the sacrifice made by >my father and other members of the Greatest Generation. >Mark my words friends. All across America groups >are forming. They are forming out of anger and >out of desperation at the thought of losing >America. They?re not militia groups, terrorists >as the Department of Homeland security would >have you believe; they are Americans, loyal to >the constitution. They are mothers and fathers >and grandparents. They belong to groups like the >Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, the Peaceful >Resistance, the Constitution Party, the Young >Conservatives, the 9/12 Project, and Grassfire. >Right now they are fragmented, each focused on >their own cause. But sometime in the next two >years, our government is going to do something >really stupid and these groups will come >together. Watch for it, wait for it get ready. It will happen. >When that event happens, whatever ?it? is, our >great country is going to plunge into chaos for >a while. I pray to God that we make it through >that time and emerge a stronger, smarter country. >Jerry Wilson >Live Free or Die Fighting > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/1f8178cb/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1b8d522.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 94038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/1f8178cb/attachment.jpg From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 14 11:52:31 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 09:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List Message-ID: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All, ? May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while attempting?also to spare the feelings of list members that had been subjected to correspondence that seemed?disrespectful. I personally know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to control our thoughts, ideas?or beliefs. ? It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. ? In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. ? Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. ? In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own to share, or that?I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. ? As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. ? Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, ? Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/56644c70/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 14 14:20:59 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:20:59 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200908141920.n7EJKtO6015523@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Shalom Glenn and All, Thank you for responding to my email re "Freedoms of Choice and Speech." Eliciting more responses from the list at large, especially from members who have not voiced their opinions was one of my reasons for writing. Obviously, I would like to see the list's comfort level restored. Therefore, your response is a good icebreaker so others can follow who may have been hesitant to chime in on the issues at hand. Am of the opinion, that if more of the key leaders and persons in the controversy choose to contribute on this issue, the list may be restored. After all, "restoration" is our common denominator in this movement. I have had some computer troubles when the problems began, so I read whatever I could in retrospect. Coming in at the end of the exchanges, I sent an email to the group, inviting those who have left to reconsider their stance. That email never made it through. I think it could have been given a chance to be helpful if it had gotten to those that left, since one the parties was still on the list who could have conveyed my message to them. It just seemed, that all referenced to the parties that left were being excised. I can see why some may have had to be, if they were abusive, I cannot see why others, at least mine were not let through. If it was abusive, please let me know, so I can change my stance. If anyone from the group that has left is still listening in on the list, I would like to ask that person to contact me, so I can resend that email publicly. I do not want to twist anyone's arm to come back into the list. I only want my invitation and some understandings to be read by them. If they still chose to leave, so be it. They have my blessings and may they find their homeward their way. I hope to meet all of them in Zion. Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 09:52 AM 8/14/2009, you wrote: >All, > >May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was >one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the >daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while >attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that had been >subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I personally >know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish >monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk >response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to >control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. > >It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this >role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the >implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. >Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to >interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to >correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I >can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are >based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire >flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. > >In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single >e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but >since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to >my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go >through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I >can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. > >Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of >which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey >alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the >difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk >humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each >action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in >mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love >flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of >people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. > >In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally >shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, >with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal >way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own >to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each >verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my >heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can >readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue >about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The >strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. > >As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all >therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and >respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show >that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the >moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists >where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected >for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. > >Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, > >Glenn >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/d70a415a/attachment.html From jaedakota at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 14:28:53 2009 From: jaedakota at gmail.com (Jae Dakota) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:28:53 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Steve Mathe post Message-ID: <12d61b4d0908141228m5c3ecef2p473b9fd2ddf3644a@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Steve, on his post below, and I am a Christian. I actually deleted my initial "membership" and "re-enlisted" with a more nominal sense of who I am, to be less "offensive". I enjoy learning in the whatever room you want to call this. As to my reason for being here: it is EXCITING to see the the L-rd who is also the G-d of Israel in an extremely special way --- bringing back the children of Abraham to the LAND. Whatever this room is, that I am posting in now, it is my hope, that "that" is reflected. Any Christian who does not understand the terms Israel, Land, the L-rd calling people to the Land will find him or herself fighting against the Covenant of G-d, which is not a good place to abide. The education about the HEART of the soldiers serving in the IDF with such love and devotion in their heart to Hashem, Family, Country, brings tears to the eye soul. And imagining Prof Tabor, and the freshmen or sophs or grads who go through his class --- you almost have to pity them trying to articulate in light of his intellect --- I imagine he eats them for lunch so to speak. And to see Hanoch about ready to make the transition --- ain't any words to express that... Remember Nehemiah --- fight together -- work together -- one hand working - one hand with a weapon in the hand -- fighting with a common purpose to rebuild the City of Jerusalem.... And pray together. And if I may be given the liberty of poetry for a moment, remember, you also ARE the city of Jerusalem... I've probably said too much. LIVE Stephen / Texas 16 From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor. The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah 17 who were building the wall. Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other, 18 and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked. But the man who sounded the trumpet stayed with me. Nehemiah 4:16-18 "This brings me to the other "taboo" subject, that of voicing personal beliefs by and everyone of us. This is a sticky wicket, but it must be brought up for the sake of encouraging others to freely voice their opinions about anything. An example of that is one of my opinions, which I recommend to be a policy for this list. It is that the conversion attempts on Jews by Messianics and other Christians be not officially espoused or promoted on this list. It so happens that such evangelizing missionary activities are at an all time high in Israel at the present. Now, I do not believe that such activity was ever was promoted or was an issue on the dialogue list, and am bringing it up only as an example of certain number of limited written or unwritten "rules" that we all need to abide by. Yes, we need some rules. The above from Steve Mathe post On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 10:11 PM, wrote: > Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to > dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. RE: Bamidbar (Catherine Cashmore) > 2. Re: Freedoms of Choice and Speech (Steve Mathe) > 3. FW: The Gathering Storm (Marvin Hyde) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:28:51 +1000 > From: Catherine Cashmore > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] Bamidbar > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Well put Marvin - I can relate to what I think you're trying to say. I for > one will certainly be holding onto Hanoch's skirt saying We will go with > you, for we have heard that God is with you.'!!! > _________________________________________________________________ > What goes online, stays online Check the daily blob for the latest on > what's happening around the web > http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090813/01a25fe7/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:46:57 -0700 > From: Steve Mathe > Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Freedoms of Choice and Speech > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Message-ID: <200908130646.n7D6krUE006813 at mail382c25.carrierzone.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Dear Friends of the Dialogue list, > > It is obvious that the the usual volume of posts to the dialogue > list is drastically down, and the living room setup has not taken off > as it was hoped it would. Am advancing the theory, that > participation is down, because many fear that they will be "censored" > or do not want to be censored and have refrained from subjecting > themselves to it. In short, be it fear, distaste, or discouragement, > the fact is that the silence speaks many unvoiced opinions, whose > common denominator is lack of participation. While it is true that > participation on any discussion list ebbs and flows as the wave > activity of the sea, I doubt that we are just in the doldrums. There > is a reason, why some are not hoisting sails and flags, firing up > their boilers, or manning the oars and the steering wheels. Some may > be contemplating what to do and are looking at maps and charts. Some > may be looking at the cargo, that is accumulating on the docks, or > deteriorating and reaching critical stage in the holds of their > vessels. Whatever the case, I think the latter is most important, > because if the loads are not handled fairly soon, the members of the > list may set course elsewhere, or find themselves in the midst of > deteriorating cargo and exploding tempers, i.e. abruptly "unloaded > cargo," and damaged or ruined relationships. In any case, if the > load is not handled, it is liable to cause damage to many near and far. > > It seems to me, that the reason for the lack of activity, and a > curious silence about "moderation" of posts is the perceived notion > that it is the 800 pound gorilla of perceived censorship that sits in > the midst of the dialogue list and the "living room" as well. What > makes this situation severely disturbing, is that no one is allowed > to talk about it, because it has become "taboo" to do so. This setup > has all the classic ingredients for a crazy-making situation. People > are between a rock and a hard place, and are not allowed, or are > unable for some reason to talk about it. By the way, this is also > the classic setting in the world of psychological schemas for > suicide. I submit that this matrix for dissolution also applies to > groups, not just individuals. > > True, sometimes drastic measures are necessary to save any union, as > was demonstrated by Abraham Lincoln when he suspended habeas corpus > in the midst of the Civil War. In extreme cases it becomes necessary > to bar someone from a discussion forum. I concur with eventually > prohibiting certain types of people from being on the list, if they > are repeatedly abusive and persistently toot a horn that is counter > to the purposes of the list. Before that necessary eventuality, I > think it is more supportive and constructive for all concerned by > first exposing a protagonist or an antagonist to the aggregate > opinions of the list. We can all then choose to be attracted or > distanced by the range of many voices. Allowing such liberty to > flourish is also more effective in encouraging all to speak up as > they wish and practice how to speak in a challenging way yet with > diplomacy. > > The case in point is the recent one where some left the dialogue list > on their own accord. I for one wrote something that I think was > positive to them, but it never made the list. My guess is that it > never got to the intended target, whom I intended to draw back into > the midst of the list for reconsideration of their stance. Others > wrote some things more stern and challenging. It seems that members > like the ones that left and all others need to consider all types of > opinions, and then decide which way they want to go. They cannot do > that, if those opinions are not allowed to be aired. > > This brings me to the other "taboo" subject, that of voicing personal > beliefs by and everyone of us. This is a sticky wicket, but it must > be brought up for the sake of encouraging others to freely voice > their opinions about anything. An example of that is one of my > opinions, which I recommend to be a policy for this list. It is that > the conversion attempts on Jews by Messianics and other Christians be > not officially espoused or promoted on this list. It so happens that > such evangelizing missionary activities are at an all time high in > Israel at the present. Now, I do not believe that such activity was > ever was promoted or was an issue on the dialogue list, and am > bringing it up only as an example of certain number of limited > written or unwritten "rules" that we all need to abide by. Yes, we > need some rules. > > Yet, personal beliefs are what motivate all of us. If members want > to discuss them, it is their right and should do so, since we are all > wrestling with our baggages, and need to sort things out as we are > led by the spirit of God. Frankly, we, the returnees from the Valley > of Dry Bones, and those who join us, need to appeal to God for it a > lot, to enlighten and empower us as to what we need to do, and to > guide us in gaining "knowledge of God," (Hos. 6:6). This is one of > "my campaigns" and axes to grind. Eventually, those who want to be > in another camp where certain subjects are paramount, and their > beliefs are supported, will choose to be there. Those who want to > remain active to whatever degree in the dialogue list will do > so. Truth, be it re Jesus, whether he was / is the Messiah, who his > early followers were, what we can learn from Judaism, seeking what > "the ancient path" really was and is, meaning of words, translations, > issues and developments, personal fears, inspirations or anything > else,that we are allowed to bring to discuss with a truth and clarity > seeking spirit, can only profit us all. We do not all need to > contribute opinions on all subjects. However, we need to be free to > discuss anything and everything germane to seeking the Truth of God. > This email re freedom of speech and freedom of choice is one of them. > That is what dialogue is, or at least supposed to be as I see it. > > I am extending a reinviting hand to ALL those who left the list and > those who distanced themselves from participation. If they want to > return and stay on the list they are welcome, at least by me, to work > through the transition. and reintegration. I appeal to the powers > that be, to forward this email to them, and invite them back into the > list. If they still choose to leave a second time, at least it will > be with the blessing of all of us and with the agency of all our > opinions freely voiced and given a chance to draw them in. > > The road homeward is pretty broad at this time. It needs to be so at > the beginning of our journey homeward. We come in all stripes and > colors and with baggages filled with all sorts of experiences and > concomitant mixtures of truth and error. I surmise that later, as we > get closer and closer to Zion, and where we ought to be as God wants > us to be, the road will become increasingly narrow. Now we should > all be able to walk freely homeward on that road at our own pace, > sorting out our baggages along the way. It is not easy, and not > everything goes, there are some rules of decorum. Some will find > their walk with some more comfortable and compatible than with some > others. Ideological and personality clashes will be inevitable; we > are all human. We are here to be helped by the Guidance of God and > by each other for the purpose of working them out. The first thing > that Jacob tells us to do at the end of days is, "Gather yourselves > together." Obviously, an important reason to do that, is to benefit > from the groups that we form. If we do not do that now on this list, > it will be very awkward to be at a Sukkot gathering with those who > have withdrawn from us on this list. Some on the list may not even > attend for that reason to avoid such a quandary. Feelers for making > peace need to be extended now, and this is one of them. It is called > "dialogue." > > By opening up the list to free speech, we will facilitate that > process. Perhaps we will even be given some portion of, or a > harbinger of "the covenant of peace," IF we speak boldly for the > Truth. I recommend that the censorship be taken off, and the > separated brethren be invited back into the dialogue list. Then we > all should see how the participation will pick up and dispositions > will change. The "choice," is before us. This is the way of the > Torah, it is also the American way; it is called the inalienable > right to freedom of choice. This is the time to do it, in the midst > of the seven weeks of consolation. I recommend that we all pray > about it, and chime in on it as we are led by the Spirit of God. I > suggest we all ask for clear vision of what to do, and EXPECT an > answer. We are supposed to listen to the "still small voice of > God"..... Shema Israel! We all have a lot to learn..... and we all > want our names written in The Book of Life. > > Steve > > PS: I suggest that we all set course for "Truth or Consequences," > like the town in New Mexico. > > "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090812/e227de80/attachment.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 11:11:14 -0400 > From: "Marvin Hyde" > Subject: [Dialogue] FW: The Gathering Storm > To: "Connie M Smith" , > , , "Gerald" > , "John Kinser" , > , "Michael Wilson" , > "Mike Smith" , > Message-ID: <609624A3CE0D4F7FB8A23873DB2FF088 at TESTPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part > -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: image/jpeg > Size: 36526 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090813/c5860770/attachment.jpe > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 25 > **************************************** > > -- If something is Worth doing, it is Worth doing Right the first time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/d518220d/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 15:12:46 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] FW: The Gathering Storm In-Reply-To: <200908140747.n7E7l8Ow015481@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <788147.8356.qm@web112402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have this overwhelming sense that we are in the 'eye of the storm.' I am expecting another shoe to drop this Yom Teruah like last year. Because I am preparing to settle on some land in the middle of no where I have been learning how assimilated into Babylon I am. I try to not let things like Health Care Plans and bailouts bother me as this is one step closer to THE KINGDOM. The governments of the Nations will do what they are told to do. 96 % of the American people were against the bailout but they did it anyway. ? God has been talking to me quite a bit about Lot. Lot liked the city. Whether he got a better price for his herds or whether his wife was happier with the conviences of the city over living in a tent I don't know. When the angels came to get him, Lot wanted to tarry. He didn't want to leave and the angels had to drag him out. Then he didn't want to go up into the mountains but asked if he could go to another city instead. I can relate to Lot's wife also. I cannot imagine what it felt like to leave loved ones behind, your friends, your home, your "stuff." I feel now is the time to get ourselves mentally and physically prepared for the storm that is coming. ? Susie --- On Fri, 8/14/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: [Dialogue] FW: The Gathering Storm To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 12:47 AM Marvyn, Thanks for this great piece by Jerry Wilson. Am of the opinion, that this storm is underway, and it will promote a national chaos of an unprecedented nature... and the powers that be are getting ready for it, because they know that the "fundamental changes" that they want to affect will cause a backlash.? It seems that there are still several roads ahead of us, which we can choose by how we act as a nation, i.e. how we choose righteousness and do that which is right, as put down in the Constitution by the Founding Fathers.? If we do not choose those values and stand up for them in the face of this UN-American president, his socialist gang, and their supporters in the blue states, we will have increasingly less roads into the future to choose from. God will make the harsh choices of correction for us and we will have to go through the great cleansing to come.? Steve "Only Torah, prayer and repentance will unify the Tribes of Israel." At 08:11 AM 8/13/2009, you wrote: ? If our representatives in government "at all levels" are not "reeled-in", this to shall come to past. ? ? Don't know who Jerry Wilson might be but he's said it better than I ever could. Friends, Please note the excellent piece of art (The Gathering Storm) that follows my ranting. When the storm finally hits (and it will), those of you who supported the Obama administration will be affected as well. It won?t just be us gun owners or Flat Taxers, or Pro-Lifers that get hit. You?ll be right there next to us. You see, you all thought the Conservatives were nut cases. You know, all of us who believe in God, small government, the Second Amendment, etc. And you thought you could just go back to sleep after the election was over. In your world, America will continue as before. You?ll still have the same rights, the same nice house, the same big screen television ? it?s all good. After all, your high school football team won and the other team lost ? go team! Even if you have bothered to look up from the daily grind since Nov 4th, you dismissed everything that has occurred as ?politics as usual? ? ?the same old stuff?. In the end, it?ll all be OK won?t it? Not this time. There are a growing number of citizens in the US that are ready to fight to shut down the government?s grab of personal freedom, it?s blatant abuse of the constitution, and it?s attempt to replace the American way of life with socialism. You have to listen carefully to hear them, but they are there. I won?t start that fight, but when it goes down I will join it. As for you, why? you?ll be shocked because you didn?t see it coming. And eventually you?ll be saddened when you see that we have truly lost the way of life with which you grew up. You?ll be saddened that your children and grandchildren live in a socialist, government-controlled gulag where their every movement from cradle to grave is tracked by the government. But most of all, you?ll be saddened by the death of friends and relatives who are brave enough to fight and die for something they believe in. You know, McCain wasn?t much of a candidate. I?ll give you that. He was the lesser of two evils for most of us. I don?t blame you for not voting for him since, at the time, you didn?t know what we all know now. But at least John McCain was an American. He was a supporter of the American way of life and he understood that you can?t negotiate with terrorists. He understood and appreciated the sacrifice made by my father and other members of the Greatest Generation. Mark my words friends. All across America groups are forming. They are forming out of anger and out of desperation at the thought of losing America. They?re not militia groups, terrorists as the Department of Homeland security would have you believe; they are Americans, loyal to the constitution. They are mothers and fathers and grandparents. They belong to groups like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, the Peaceful Resistance, the Constitution Party, the Young Conservatives, the 9/12 Project, and Grassfire. Right now they are fragmented, each focused on their own cause. But sometime in the next two years, our government is going to do something really stupid and these groups will come together. Watch for it, wait for it?get ready. It will happen. When that event happens, whatever ?it? is, our great country is going to plunge into chaos for a while. I pray to God that we make it through that time and emerge a stronger, smarter country. Jerry Wilson Live Free or Die Fighting ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/b9ff1aa0/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1b8d522.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 94038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/b9ff1aa0/attachment.jpg From rlibby03 at maine.rr.com Fri Aug 14 17:59:12 2009 From: rlibby03 at maine.rr.com (Dick L) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:59:12 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01ca1d32$d711aab0$6e01a8c0@user57kkpmrfo8> So very well spoken Glenn--and Beautiful as well. No need to explain Ross to me though. I consider him to be a very smart individual, and his heart is to Torah. His hard work is endless. There are many here that are Torah based and exceedingly knowledgeable in the subject. Hope all will read your article again. Especially those who want out. So Well expressed. Dick L .Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 12:52 PM Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List All, May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that had been subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I personally know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, Glenn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/75150107/attachment.html From tammyhulon at msn.com Fri Aug 14 16:13:32 2009 From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:13:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: <200908141920.n7EJKtO6015523@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <200908141920.n7EJKtO6015523@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: Shalom Steve, If you are speaking of the email that you had sent to addressed me, you should know that Ross did forward that email to me. I shared the email with Web. Thanks, Tami Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:20:59 -0700 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List Shalom Glenn and All, Thank you for responding to my email re "Freedoms of Choice and Speech." Eliciting more responses from the list at large, especially from members who have not voiced their opinions was one of my reasons for writing. Obviously, I would like to see the list's comfort level restored. Therefore, your response is a good icebreaker so others can follow who may have been hesitant to chime in on the issues at hand. Am of the opinion, that if more of the key leaders and persons in the controversy choose to contribute on this issue, the list may be restored. After all, "restoration" is our common denominator in this movement. I have had some computer troubles when the problems began, so I read whatever I could in retrospect. Coming in at the end of the exchanges, I sent an email to the group, inviting those who have left to reconsider their stance. That email never made it through. I think it could have been given a chance to be helpful if it had gotten to those that left, since one the parties was still on the list who could have conveyed my message to them. It just seemed, that all referenced to the parties that left were being excised. I can see why some may have had to be, if they were abusive, I cannot see why others, at least mine were not let through. If it was abusive, please let me know, so I can change my stance. If anyone from the group that has left is still listening in on the list, I would like to ask that person to contact me, so I can resend that email publicly. I do not want to twist anyone's arm to come back into the list. I only want my invitation and some understandings to be read by them. If they still chose to leave, so be it. They have my blessings and may they find their homeward their way. I hope to meet all of them in Zion. Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 09:52 AM 8/14/2009, you wrote: All, May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that had been subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I personally know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, Glenn _______________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/b692b523/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 14 18:38:07 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:38:07 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One thing I think should be clarified when it comes to e-mail lists is the difference between moderation and censorship. They are not the same in any way. I have been, and am a member of a half dozen e-mail discussion groups over the years--The Jesus Tomb, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ancient Near East, the Noahide group, and even a group on my book, The Jesus Dynasty, that some of your joined. ALL of these groups are moderated and I don't know of any group on the internet that is unmoderated. Even Blog comments are moderated. This has nothing to do with censorship, controlling the free expression of views, and so forth. It has rather to do with trying to assure a given list is able to stay somewhat on topic. I think there has been a real misunderstanding in this regard and Ross of all people is probably the most encouraging person I know regarding the sharing of dissonant views. Rather than want to censor people he seems to excel in areas where people of widely differing views come together. That was and is the purpose of the Dialogue group. Each e-mail group has to have a purpose or focus, it can be either public or private, and it can be devoted to topics or personal matters or just about anything. Just a clarification here on this issue as I think it is being badly misunderstood as if Ross and some group are now filtering opinions and only allowing certain perspectives to be expressed. This is so far from the truth it is sad. Warmest best to all, James On Aug 14, 2009, at 12:52 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > All, > > May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was > one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the > daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while > attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that had been > subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I personally > know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish > monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk > response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to > control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. > > It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this > role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the > implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. > Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to > interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to > correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I > can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are > based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire > flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. > > In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single > e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but > since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to > my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go > through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I > can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. > > Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of > which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey > alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the > difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk > humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each > action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in > mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love > flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of > people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. > > In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally > shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, > with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal > way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own > to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each > verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my > heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can > readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue > about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The > strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. > > As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all > therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and > respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show > that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the > moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists > where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected > for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very > seriously. > > Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/edca34bb/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Fri Aug 14 19:49:45 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:49:45 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla Message-ID: There is a 800 pound gorilla in the room.......that no one is allowed to talk about. There were e-mail posts several weeks ago that discussed what the purpose of this list was.....there was some discussion of this, this led to the subject of leadership at which time the discussions started to warmed up. Next as I remember, some folks were misunderstood and this led to a very graphic post by my friend Dan T. (I should add, from my own internet router).... towards Web H. As soon as this e-mail hit the board I Prayed that there was some way to get it off the list. When this letter posted, Web, Ross, James, and others from the Beth Lechem congregation were in a meeting together in North Carolina at the time discussing leadership and this very list. I am glad not to have been in that room. Remember no mater what is posted, once it is posted it can not be removed from the mail server. Ross very quickly basically turned the list off and no ones posting made it through for several days if not a week! Then it was decided that we need to be able to "see" a post before it is permanent, with no way to take it down, so to speak. This could have been done with out letting everyone know it......(and would have been right in doing this). So far, after the first week of Ross deciding what needed to be done, only One Email post has been stopped since. Remember that the first week Ross stopped all posting, and I am sure some of you may have not gotten through. The Post that was declined was one that appered to be a non member and had some strange looking code that I felt may be a virus....so it was not allowed....other than that no discussion has been censored....only looked at for inappropriate content....... Several members from the Beth Lechem group stopped their subscription to this list....(I would have expected that they all stopped). But the list of folks that left was/is short. Several have subscribed since. Remeber anyone may subscribe (it is public) and they may not say hello for a while.....This was one of Ross' main concerns at the time, these new members. If any of your post are refused then you will get a response from Ross explaining why.... James Tabors post a few minutes ago explains the difference of moderation and censorship........ Lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in OUR room! (if in fact there is one??????) Baseless LOVE rules!!!!! dave dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/545c0174/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 14 20:05:41 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:05:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <200908141920.n7EJKtO6015523@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <200908150105.n7F15dXM003944@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Shabbat Shalom Tami, Web and and All in your camp, as well as to all in the Dialogue camp, Am glad that my email got through to Web. It was nice of Ross to forward it to him. Thank you for your participation and considerations. i hope Web will consider it as well as my other posts and the posts of others on this issue, The hand is still extended to Web and your whole camp.. My previous emails. speak for themselves. I invite all to consider this invitation and to give getting along another try. True, sometimes, it is not possible to walk with others, for various reasons. For example, I would not like to live in a Jamaican community with steel drums banging away all day and night. It would disturb my personality's makeup. I could NOT stand it. However, if someone from that camp was interested in the restoration of the Tribes, I would talk to him about that subject. I would have to learn to get along with that person along mutual lines of interests. If I insulted him about his steel drums, I would have to apologize. If he wanted to talk about his steel drums all the time, I would decline participation in that subject. No offense, my lack of response would tell of my disinterest. Also, my clarifying being disturbed by his steel drums throughout the day would help, I hope. At least I would have done that which I could to make getting along easier. My guess is that discussion groups could work in similar ways. Shalom.... we need it. Steve At 02:13 PM 8/14/2009, you wrote: >Shalom Steve, > >If you are speaking of the email that you had >sent to addressed me, you should know that Ross >did forward that email to me. I shared the email with Web. > >Thanks, Tami > > > > >---------- >Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:20:59 -0700 >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com >Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List > >Shalom Glenn and All, > >Thank you for responding to my email re >"Freedoms of Choice and Speech." Eliciting more >responses from the list at large, especially from members >who have not voiced their opinions was one of >my reasons for writing. Obviously, I would like >to see the list's comfort level restored. >Therefore, your response is a good icebreaker so >others can follow who may have been hesitant to >chime in on the issues at hand. Am of the >opinion, that if more of the key leaders and >persons in the controversy choose to contribute >on this issue, the list may be restored. After >all, "restoration" is our common denominator in this movement. > >I have had some computer troubles when the >problems began, so I read whatever I could in >retrospect. Coming in at the end of the exchanges, I sent an >email to the group, inviting those who have left >to reconsider their stance. That email never >made it through. I think it could have been >given a chance to be helpful if it had gotten to >those that left, since one the parties was still >on the list who could have conveyed my message >to them. It just seemed, that all referenced to >the parties that left were being excised. I can >see why some may have had to be, if they were >abusive, I cannot see why others, at least mine >were not let through. If it was abusive, please >let me know, so I can change my stance. > >If anyone from the group that has left is still >listening in on the list, I would like to ask >that person to contact me, so I can resend that >email publicly. I do not want to twist anyone's >arm to come back into the list. I only want >my invitation and some understandings to be >read by them. If they still chose to leave, so >be it. They have my blessings and may they find >their homeward their way. I hope to meet all of them in Zion. > > >Shabbat Shalom, > >Steve > > > > >At 09:52 AM 8/14/2009, you wrote: >All, > >May I share a few thoughts on this obviously >hot-button topic? I was one of a small group >approached by Ross as he struggled with the >daunting task of allowing true dialogue to >continue unfettered while attempting also to >spare the feelings of list members that had been >subjected to correspondence that seemed >disrespectful. I personally know of the >wrestling that went into Ross' decision to >establish monitors. This was certainly not an >act of whimsy, or knee-jerk response, and most >assuredly was not in any way a power-play to >control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. > >It was not without some measure of trepidation >that I accepted this role, fully realizing the >awesome responsibility as well as the >implications and the potential for >misinterpretation of the motives. Having the >benefit of the vantage point where I am >permitted to interact with Ross on various >personal levels, I think I am able to correctly >assess his heart in this matter. To put it as >simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To >that end, his decisions are based on what he >believes are in the best interests of the entire >flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. > >In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, >or censored, a single e-mail. I don't have the >luxury of being on line at all times, but since >accepting this responsibility, I do get every >posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen >any that were not permitted to go through. I >believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, >but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. > >Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many >good points, one of which I think over-arches >them all - each of us is on this journey alone >AND together. How we treat one another makes all >the difference... we must do justice, love >loving kindness, and walk humbly with our God. >If we temper each thought, each word, each >action, and yes, each e-mail with these >foundational instructions in mind, then we will >see blessings and growth and genuine love >flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to >fruition - a community of people that spans the >globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. > >In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I >have generally shared words of edification, >exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, with >little or no addition or commentary. That is >just my personal way of sharing, and in no way >means I feel I have nothing of my own to share, >or that I think I am in a place where I know it >all. Each verse I share has been carefully >chosen to convey the message on my heart. That >is just how I do it... but as those who know me >can readily attest, I will just as certainly >engage in in-depth dialogue about dogma, >doctrine or difficult matters of life on This >Way. The strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. > >As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the >promises, let us all therefore strive to walk >peaceably and with mutual honor and respect. >While we may not agree on all matters, it is how >we show that disagreement that is all telling. >This is all that the moderation was established >to achieve - to ensure a forum exists where all >are equally protected to freely express and be >respected for holding their various convictions. >It is a role I take very seriously. > >Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, > >Glenn >_______________________________________________ > > > >---------- >Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. >Check >it out. >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/fe511513/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 14 20:28:41 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:28:41 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: References: <280936.12926.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200908150128.n7F1SdUY020970@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Shabbat Shalom, James and All, Am glad that you followed suit with Glenn and are clarifying further with your commenting on the issue/s at hand. Clarification of one's stance helps a lot. Dennis Prager always says that his motto is that he is "not looking for agreement, but for clarification." I for one am not imputing motives, "censorship-wise or " or otherwise. I did mention that the moderation is effectively "perceived" as censorship. Whether it was so, or otherwise, my point is that the situation needs to be clarified, and unfinished business be finished for the benefit of the list and its members. My agenda is to draw all relevant parties in and clarify their positions, and say what needs to be said by them, so that all concerned can rest about where everyone else figuring in this situation on the playing field is. Of course, the final product I would like to see, as I have already explained, a peace, an accord to resume participation. Resolved conflicts can make our bonds stronger. Unresolved conflicts can fester and create more problems. Thank you again for commenting on this, Shabbat Shalom Everyone, PS. A note to All: We all makes mistakes, and we are all misunderstood from time to time. We cannot please everyone. Sometimes all we can say and do is not enough to right the boat. We need outside help from an expert. Let us all appeal for help to "The Expert," the Creator God about this. At 04:38 PM 8/14/2009, you wrote: >One thing I think should be clarified when it comes to e-mail lists >is the difference between moderation and censorship. They are not >the same in any way. I have been, and am a member of a half dozen >e-mail discussion groups over the years--The Jesus Tomb, Dead Sea >Scrolls, the Ancient Near East, the Noahide group, and even a group >on my book, The Jesus Dynasty, that some of your joined. ALL of >these groups are moderated and I don't know of any group on the >internet that is unmoderated. Even Blog comments are moderated. This >has nothing to do with censorship, controlling the free expression >of views, and so forth. It has rather to do with trying to assure a >given list is able to stay somewhat on topic. I think there has been >a real misunderstanding in this regard and Ross of all people is >probably the most encouraging person I know regarding the sharing of >dissonant views. Rather than want to censor people he seems to excel >in areas where people of widely differing views come together. That >was and is the purpose of the Dialogue group. Each e-mail group has >to have a purpose or focus, it can be either public or private, and >it can be devoted to topics or personal matters or just about >anything. Just a clarification here on this issue as I think it is >being badly misunderstood as if Ross and some group are now >filtering opinions and only allowing certain perspectives to be >expressed. This is so far from the truth it is sad. > >Warmest best to all, > >James > > >On Aug 14, 2009, at 12:52 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > >>All, >> >>May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I >>was one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with >>the daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered >>while attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that >>had been subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I >>personally know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to >>establish monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or >>knee-jerk response, and most assuredly was not in any way a >>power-play to control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. >> >>It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this >>role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the >>implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the >>motives. Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am >>permitted to interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think >>I am able to correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it >>as simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his >>decisions are based on what he believes are in the best interests >>of the entire flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. >> >>In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a >>single e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all >>times, but since accepting this responsibility, I do get every >>posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not >>permitted to go through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have >>been one, but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the >>specific circumstances. >> >>Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of >>which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey >>alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the >>difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk >>humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each >>action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions >>in mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love >>flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community >>of people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. >> >>In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally >>shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the >>Tanakh, with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my >>personal way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing >>of my own to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it >>all. Each verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the >>message on my heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who >>know me can readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in >>in-depth dialogue about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of >>life on This Way. The strength of this community lies in large part >>in its diversity. >> >>As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all >>therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and >>respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show >>that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the >>moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists >>where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected >>for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. >> >>Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, >> >>Glenn >>_______________________________________________ > >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/d31e86dd/attachment.html From eliasaph at uniteourheart.com Fri Aug 14 20:48:25 2009 From: eliasaph at uniteourheart.com (Steve Mathe) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:48:25 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200908150148.n7F1mMI2010820@mail384c25.carrierzone.com> Dave, Thank you for chiming in. Clarification from many sources and angles helps. The 800 pound gorilla, my be real, or only perceived to be there. In any case, our perceptions need to be aired, so that we can repair the tears in our hearts... and relationships. Shabbat Shalom, Steve At 05:49 PM 8/14/2009, you wrote: >There is a 800 pound gorilla in the room.......that no one is >allowed to talk about. > >There were e-mail posts several weeks ago that discussed what the >purpose of this list was.....there was some discussion of this, this >led to the subject of leadership at which time the discussions >started to warmed up. Next as I remember, some folks were >misunderstood and this led to a very graphic post by my friend Dan >T. (I should add, from my own internet router).... towards Web >H. As soon as this e-mail hit the board I Prayed that there was >some way to get it off the list. When this letter posted, Web, >Ross, James, and others from the Beth Lechem congregation were in a >meeting together in North Carolina at the time discussing leadership >and this very list. I am glad not to have been in that >room. Remember no mater what is posted, once it is posted it can >not be removed from the mail server. > >Ross very quickly basically turned the list off and no ones posting >made it through for several days if not a week! Then it was decided >that we need to be able to "see" a post before it is permanent, with >no way to take it down, so to speak. This could have been done with >out letting everyone know it......(and would have been right in >doing this). So far, after the first week of Ross deciding what >needed to be done, only One Email post has been stopped >since. Remember that the first week Ross stopped all posting, and >I am sure some of you may have not gotten through. The Post that >was declined was one that appered to be a non member and had some >strange looking code that I felt may be a virus....so it was not >allowed....other than that no discussion has been censored....only >looked at for inappropriate content....... > > >Several members from the Beth Lechem group stopped their >subscription to this list....(I would have expected that they all >stopped). But the list of folks that left was/is short. Several >have subscribed since. Remeber anyone may subscribe (it is public) >and they may not say hello for a while.....This was one of Ross' >main concerns at the time, these new members. > >If any of your post are refused then you will get a response from >Ross explaining why.... James Tabors post a few minutes ago explains >the difference of moderation and censorship........ > >Lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in OUR room! (if in fact >there is one??????) > >Baseless LOVE rules!!!!! >dave > > > >dave >_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/b8070612/attachment.html From creechmargie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 20:55:18 2009 From: creechmargie at yahoo.com (Margie Creech) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 18:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List In-Reply-To: <200908150128.n7F1SdUY020970@mail382c25.carrierzone.com> Message-ID: <406744.19809.qm@web58503.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Steve, Shabbat Shalom!? Thank you for this post.? It's obvious it is from your heart.? You are a true peacemaker and I for one appreciate your wisdom.? I agree with you, May we all seek the Expert. ? With great respect for you, Margie --- On Fri, 8/14/09, Steve Mathe wrote: From: Steve Mathe Subject: Re: [Dialogue] On the Moderation of this List To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 8:28 PM Shabbat Shalom, James and All, Am glad that you followed suit with Glenn and are clarifying further with your commenting on the issue/s at hand.? Clarification of one's stance? helps a lot.? Dennis Prager always says that his motto is that he is "not looking for agreement, but for clarification."?? I for one am not imputing motives, "censorship-wise or " or otherwise.? I did mention that the moderation is effectively "perceived"? as censorship.? Whether it was so, or otherwise, my point is that the situation needs to be clarified, and unfinished business be finished for the benefit of the list and its members.? My agenda is to draw all relevant parties in and clarify their positions, and say what needs to be said by them, so that all concerned can rest about where everyone else figuring in this situation on the playing field is.? Of course, the final product I would like to see,? as I have already explained, a peace, an accord to resume participation.? Resolved conflicts can make our bonds stronger.? Unresolved conflicts can fester and create more problems.? Thank you again for commenting on this, Shabbat Shalom Everyone, PS. A note to All:? We all makes mistakes, and we are all misunderstood from time to time. We cannot please everyone. Sometimes all we can say and do is not enough to right the boat. We need outside help from an expert.? Let us all appeal for help to "The Expert," the Creator God about this. At 04:38 PM 8/14/2009, you wrote: One thing I think should be clarified when it comes to e-mail lists is the difference between moderation and censorship. They are not the same in any way. I have been, and am a member of a half dozen e-mail discussion groups over the years--The Jesus Tomb, Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ancient Near East, the Noahide group, and even a group on my book, The Jesus Dynasty, that some of your joined. ALL of these groups are moderated and I don't know of any group on the internet that is unmoderated. Even Blog comments are moderated. This has nothing to do with censorship, controlling the free expression of views, and so forth. It has rather to do with trying to assure a given list is able to stay somewhat on topic. I think there has been a real misunderstanding in this regard and Ross of all people is probably the most encouraging person I know regarding the sharing of dissonant views. Rather than want to censor people he seems to excel in areas where people of widely differing views come together. That was and is the purpose of the Dialogue group. Each e-mail group has to have a purpose or focus, it can be either public or private, and it can be devoted to topics or personal matters or just about anything. Just a clarification here on this issue as I think it is being badly misunderstood as if Ross and some group are now filtering opinions and only allowing certain perspectives to be expressed. This is so far from the truth it is sad. Warmest best to all, James On Aug 14, 2009, at 12:52 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: All, ? May I share a few thoughts on this obviously hot-button topic? I was one of a small group approached by Ross as he struggled with the daunting task of allowing true dialogue to continue unfettered while attempting also to spare the feelings of list members that had been subjected to correspondence that seemed disrespectful. I personally know of the wrestling that went into Ross' decision to establish monitors. This was certainly not an act of whimsy, or knee-jerk response, and most assuredly was not in any way a power-play to control our thoughts, ideas or beliefs. ? It was not without some measure of trepidation that I accepted this role, fully realizing the awesome responsibility as well as the implications and the potential for misinterpretation of the motives. Having the benefit of the vantage point where I am permitted to interact with Ross on various personal levels, I think I am able to correctly assess his heart in this matter. To put it as simply as I can, his heart is for the sheep. To that end, his decisions are based on what he believes are in the best interests of the entire flock. I am certain he has the heart of YHVH on this matter. ? In my role as moderator, I have never blocked, or censored, a single e-mail. I don't have the luxury of being on line at all times, but since accepting this responsibility, I do get every posting, and to my knowledge, I have not seen any that were not permitted to go through. I believe Dave mentioned there may have been one, but I can't speak to that, as I am not aware of the specific circumstances. ? Our beloved brother Steve has brought up many good points, one of which I think over-arches them all - each of us is on this journey alone AND together. How we treat one another makes all the difference... we must do justice, love loving kindness, and walk humbly with our God. If we temper each thought, each word, each action, and yes, each e-mail with these foundational instructions in mind, then we will see blessings and growth and genuine love flourish. We will see Ross' vision come to fruition - a community of people that spans the globe, all seeking to walk in the ways of YHVH. ? In keeping with that vision and ultimate goal, I have generally shared words of edification, exhortation or comfort from the Tanakh, with little or no addition or commentary. That is just my personal way of sharing, and in no way means I feel I have nothing of my own to share, or that I think I am in a place where I know it all. Each verse I share has been carefully chosen to convey the message on my heart. That is just how I do it... but as those who know me can readily attest, I will just as certainly engage in in-depth dialogue about dogma, doctrine or difficult matters of life on This Way. The strength of this community lies in large part in its diversity. ? As fellow-heirs of the covenant and the promises, let us all therefore strive to walk peaceably and with mutual honor and respect. While we may not agree on all matters, it is how we show that disagreement that is all telling. This is all that the moderation was established to achieve - to ensure a forum exists where all are equally protected to freely express and be respected for holding their various convictions. It is a role I take very seriously. ? Thank you for taking the time to allow me to share, ? Glenn _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090814/67a5b416/attachment.html From rossknichols at me.com Sat Aug 15 01:58:14 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 01:58:14 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Class on Re'eh Message-ID: <5AB8C2DE-00BA-40AF-B7BB-6A6DEADD2D71@me.com> I am excited about my class in a few hours from now. I hope that many of you can listen in live. Among other topics, you will get the Torah answers to the following questions: Is the kingdom of God "food and drink"? Does God care for oxen? (sorry James... I love that title:) Does God really need your money? What redeems one from the curse of "the Law"? What better is there to do on the Sabbath than come together around Yehovah's holy Torah? Please join us at 10:30 for our service. Shabbat shalom! Sent from my iPhone From jid at westnet.com.au Sat Aug 15 04:46:34 2009 From: jid at westnet.com.au (JOE INDOMENICO) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:46:34 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla] Message-ID: <4A8683FA.50603@westnet.com.au> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090815/5a84fce6/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Dave Cole" Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:49:45 -0500 Size: 9842 Url: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090815/5a84fce6/attachment.eml From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 15 09:24:54 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 08:24:54 -0600 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Class on Re'eh In-Reply-To: <5AB8C2DE-00BA-40AF-B7BB-6A6DEADD2D71@me.com> References: <5AB8C2DE-00BA-40AF-B7BB-6A6DEADD2D71@me.com> Message-ID: <523AF136-D598-4573-9EAF-0BE08D140BDD@earthlink.net> Shalom Ross, I am out of town but will be listening on the iPhone...kind of a Pele' don't you think? Shabbat Shalom! James Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2009, at 12:58 AM, Ross Nichols wrote: > I am excited about my class in a few hours from now. I hope that > many of you can listen in live. Among other topics, you will get the > Torah answers to the following questions: > > Is the kingdom of God "food and drink"? > > Does God care for oxen? (sorry James... I love that title:) > > Does God really need your money? > > What redeems one from the curse of "the Law"? > > What better is there to do on the Sabbath than come together around > Yehovah's holy Torah? Please join us at 10:30 for our service. > > Shabbat shalom! > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ From BKimbro276 at aol.com Sat Aug 15 10:10:25 2009 From: BKimbro276 at aol.com (BKimbro276 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 11:10:25 EDT Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Class on Re'eh Message-ID: I will be there!!!! Billy Kimbrough In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:58:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rossknichols at me.com writes: I am excited about my class in a few hours from now. I hope that many of you can listen in live. Among other topics, you will get the Torah answers to the following questions: Is the kingdom of God "food and drink"? Does God care for oxen? (sorry James... I love that title:) Does God really need your money? What redeems one from the curse of "the Law"? What better is there to do on the Sabbath than come together around Yehovah's holy Torah? Please join us at 10:30 for our service. Shabbat shalom! Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090815/6b1aec14/attachment.html From rossknichols at me.com Sat Aug 15 14:00:05 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 14:00:05 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Torah Class on Re'eh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The class is posted on rootsoffaith.org Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2009, at 10:10 AM, BKimbro276 at aol.com wrote: > I will be there!!!! > > Billy Kimbrough > > In a message dated 8/15/2009 1:58:43 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rossknichols at me.com > writes: > I am excited about my class in a few hours from now. I hope that many > of you can listen in live. Among other topics, you will get the Torah > answers to the following questions: > > Is the kingdom of God "food and drink"? > > Does God care for oxen? (sorry James... I love that title:) > > Does God really need your money? > > What redeems one from the curse of "the Law"? > > What better is there to do on the Sabbath than come together around > Yehovah's holy Torah? Please join us at 10:30 for our service. > > Shabbat shalom! > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090815/a84415e6/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 16 13:23:10 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 11:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh Message-ID: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All, I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, Glenn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090816/b24cb581/attachment.html From mikehelps at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 10:08:50 2009 From: mikehelps at gmail.com (Mike Farmer) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 08:08:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1d837a0d0908170808o543d1a64lf731072cdd0e8d19@mail.gmail.com> I looked at the location on Google Earth and it makes a natural cup shape, almost like two hands to gather the people into. Blessing on the hand to the south, cursing to the hand on the north. Even today, there is a visible difference between the two. The north side is essentially uninhabited, and the south is build up. I'd like to visit it, but it's in the West Bank now. God establishes things by putting testimonies into the earth itself - heaven and earth become witnesses. Each mountain becomes a witness (two witnesses in earth). The blessing on the south (for faithfulness) and the curse on the north (for going astray) played itself out literally in the two kingdoms, where Yehudah was the more faithful. That place of remembrance was in the territory of the northern kingdom, a permanent reminder of the justice of God's judgment on them. That was also the location of Jacob's well, between the two mountains. This speaks to the water of the Word that gives life. It is also the place where Yeshua met the woman at the well, and she questions him about 'this mountain' and he teaches about true worship. It is awesome that the "living word" spoke truth from the same place. It was here that he clearly said he was the Messiah. It was here that he began the work of regathering the lost northern tribes that had mixed themselves with the nations, as the people of Sychar of the Samaritans came and believed that he was the savior of the world. These are just the highlights of what I found so far. I think there is more there. On 8/16/09, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > > > > All, > > I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. > The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the > blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This > idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are > called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph > and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). > The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. > > I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, > > Glenn -- Mike Farmer 509-228-8299 home/office 509-842-6294 cell phone mikehelps at gmail.com www.mikehelps.net From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 18 19:13:57 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: <1d837a0d0908170808o543d1a64lf731072cdd0e8d19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <357860.60585.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mike, ? Very interesting observations, and lots to chew on! Makes sense on various levels. I really appreciate the reply! ? Shalom, and be blessed, ? Glenn --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Mike Farmer wrote: From: Mike Farmer Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 10:08 AM I looked at the location on Google Earth and it makes a natural cup shape, almost like two hands to gather the people into. Blessing on the hand to the south, cursing to the hand on the north. Even today, there is a visible difference between the two. The north side is essentially uninhabited, and the south is build up. I'd like to visit it, but it's in the West Bank now. God establishes things by putting testimonies into the earth itself - heaven and earth become witnesses. Each mountain becomes a witness (two witnesses in earth). The blessing on the south (for faithfulness) and the curse on the north (for going astray) played itself out literally in the two kingdoms, where Yehudah was the more faithful. That place of remembrance was in the territory of the northern kingdom, a permanent reminder of the justice of God's judgment on them. That was also the location of Jacob's well, between the two mountains. This speaks to the water of the Word that gives life. It is also the place where Yeshua met the woman at the well, and she questions him about 'this mountain' and he teaches about true worship. It is awesome that the "living word" spoke truth from the same place. It was here that he clearly said he was the Messiah. It was here that he began the work of regathering the lost northern tribes that had mixed themselves with the nations, as the people of Sychar of the Samaritans came and believed that he was the savior of the world. These are just the highlights of what I found so far. I think there is more there. On 8/16/09, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > > > > All, > > I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. > The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the > blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This > idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are > called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph > and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). > The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. > > I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, > > Glenn -- Mike Farmer 509-228-8299 home/office 509-842-6294 cell phone mikehelps at gmail.com www.mikehelps.net _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090818/24aa196d/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 18 21:14:08 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:14:08 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3811FA6B-9D70-4299-A6BF-F35DC2AB4608@earthlink.net> This is a great question Glenn and various interpreters have suggested many things over the years but without any definitive resolution so far as I can determine. This grouping has nothing to do with the encampments or the order of the tribes when they took up stakes (literal Hebrew here!), see Numbers 2:1-31; 10:11-33. There we find the groups: North: Naphtali, Asher, Dan West: Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin South: Gad Simeon, Reuben East: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun One thing that greatly interests me is the language of Ezekiel 37 and section on the "two sticks" (literally "two woods or trees). There we read about Judah and Joseph and their respective "chaverim," i.e. tribes associated with each. It sounds like certain tribes more or less are associated with Judah & Joseph in groups, which I take it are not just the south (Judah & Benjamin) and the north (Joseph/10 tribes). As you note, the tribes on Gerizim include Judah and Joseph, so the "northern" and "southern" history of the tribes, and/or their behavior, does not seem to have much to do with this setup. Also, in terms of the individual tribes notice that Simeon and Levi, that get the very worst word from Jacob (Gen 49), and even are put under a "curse," for their cruelty and violence, are with the "blessing" group. So far I have not come across a suggestion that I find makes much sense... Thanks for bringing this up. James On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:23 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > > All, > > I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to > the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct > that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse > on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy > 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing > (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse > (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual > pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. > > I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090818/430e4782/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Wed Aug 19 06:05:34 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:05:34 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] News article - Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel In-Reply-To: <540007.7764.qm@web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4A8AD6D9.4080904@westnet.com.au> <540007.7764.qm@web33308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A7 news 10-08 PA-IS:090810:(12-AUG-09):Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel by Hillel Fendel Up to 85 percent of Arabs in greater Israel stem from Jewish ancestors, it is estimated. Some of them want to become fully Jewish, but most are scared to even talk about it. ?In our search for the lost Ten Tribes in India and Afghanistan, we seem to have forgotten to look for their descendants in our very own backyard.? So says the narrator in a new film about the efforts of a former hi-tech pioneer named Tzvi MiSinai to search out the Jewish roots of Israel's Arab enemies ? and to inform them of their Judaic heritage. [weJe Email readers please click here to see the video footage. MiSinai has spent about a half-million shekels, he estimates, on these efforts. They include visiting dangerous places deep inside Palestinian Authority-controlled territory, hearing the stories of Arabs who remember observing Jewish customs, and distributing literature to Jews and Arabs alike. One Arab says his father told him the secret of his family?s Jewishness on his deathbed, while another one, on the backdrop of a photo of the saintly Cabalistic sage Rabbi Abuchatzeira on his wall, says their roots have been known in his family for generations. Wrapping what apparently used to be kosher tefillin on his arm, he says, ?My father used to do this, and he taught us to do it whenever someone was sick or in trouble.? The Jews Who Didn't Leave It is generally accepted that most Jews left the Land of Israel after the failed Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE. Yet many remained, and of these, many are still here, after having been forced to convert to Islam. ?It turns out that a large part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel are actually descendants of forced converts to Islam over the years,? says Rabbi Dov Stein of the nascent Sanhedrin rabbinical council. ?There are some studies that say that 85 percent of the Arabs in Israel are descended from Jews; others say there are fewer.? Ben-Gurion Agrees The claims are not new. Early Zionist leaders David Ben-Gurion and Yitzchak Ben-Tzvi wrote in a book 100 years ago: ?If we investigate the origins of the Felahim, there is no doubt that much Jewish blood runs in their veins.? The authors implied that these Jews loved the Land so much that they were willing to give up their religion. The reference is probably to an edict in the year 1012 by Caliph el-Hakim, who ordered the non-Muslims to either convert or leave the Land of Israel. It is estimated that 90 percent of the Jews chose the former, though many continued to practice Judaism in secret. The decree was revoked 32 years later - apparently too late for about 75 percent of the converts. Tzvi MiSinai continues to convince Arabs in Judea and Samaria that they are likely Jewish. The film shows him passing through the Gush Etzion checkpoint and distributing pamphlets both to Israeli soldiers ? ?so that you?ll know who you?re checking here? ? and to the Arabs waiting there ? ?so that you?ll know who the majority of you are.? Asked by an Arab if he is from the peace movement, MiSinai answers, ?Yes, yes, peace, so that we can live together as one nation.? The Sawarka Bedouin Jews One place where MiSinai has apparently found very strong Jewish roots is in the Bedouin tribe known as the Sawarka. There are about 3-4,000 of them throughout the Sinai and the Negev, and they ?are all Jewish,? says a tribal leader in perfect Hebrew. With his face camouflaged for the cameras, the Bedouin says, ?They had no choice but to convert; this was centuries ago? I remember my mother and grandmother wouldn?t light fire on Sabbath, and they had a special mikveh?? Others, in a Bedouin village east of Hebron, also remember burning a small piece of dough (reminiscent of the Biblical command to separate a small piece of dough when baking bread), lighting candles at graves, and tearing clothes and sitting shiva for seven days, and not three as is Muslim practice. Even today, ritual circumcisions are carried out after the seventh day of birth. Many homes in some of the Arab villages have doorpost indentations for a Mezuzah, with a scroll placed in some of them. In another village just south of Hevron, Muhammed Amsalem ? a descendant of Spanish Jews - told Aharon Granot of Mishpacha magazine that everyone in town knows he and his clan are Jews: ?Our elders tell us that our forefathers came to this land during the [15th centur Spanish Inquisition, via Morocco. They settled in Ramle. Then the Mamluks forced them to convert to Islam, and they moved to the South Hevron area.? Amsalem says they decided to reveal their Jewish roots after the 1967 Six Day War when they learned that a Jewish community had been reestablished in Hevron. ?But the Jews saw we had no knowledge of their religious practices and refused to accept us? If the Jewish community would be willing to receive us today, we would join them with great enthusiasm.? In the area of the South Hevron Hills, half of the Arabs are aware of the Jewish origins. They used to talk about it openly, though no longer. One man who recently publicized a silver Chanukah menorah that had been passed down to him from his father and previous generations was hung by terrorists by his feet for six weeks, leaving him with permanent injuries. Genetic Studies Back Claims At the Hadassah Medical School labs, Prof. Ariela Oppenheim of Hebrew University performed an international genetic study that backs up conclusions of Jewish-Arab genetic similarities. ?We found that despite the dispersion of Jews around the world for 2,000 years, they essentially kept their Jewish continuity,? Oppenheim said. ?In addition, we found that the Jewish population is surprisingly close, genetically, to the Arabs living here in Israel.? She said that the study shows that both the Arabs of Israel and the Jews are descended from the Kurds of Aram in Babylon ? the birthplace of the Patriarch Abraham. ?It?s clear that we?re all from the same family,? Oppenheim concludes. ?Most unfortunately, however, there are conflicts even within families, and sometimes brothers fight as well. I wish this is what will bring the Redemption, but I?m very sad to say that I don?t think so.? Some Want to Return to Observant Judaism South of Hevron, in Yatta, there is a large formerly-Jewish presence ? and some even want to return to active Judaism. It is widely known there that half the residents are of the originally-Jewish Mahamra clan ? a name that means ?winemaker,? a trade that is forbidden according to Islam. ?The people in these areas converted to Islam later in history,? MiSinai says, ?and therefore more customs and knowledge and artifacts have been preserved.? These include Jewish stars over the entrances to homes, while in at least one house, the family has hidden a mezuzah and tefillin in creative hiding spots. One man pulled out a small Hebrew booklet of Psalms and Tanya with which he says he continues to secretly pray. Miro Cohen, a Jew from Tekoa, in eastern Gush Etzion, is very friendly with the Arabs in a nearby village known as Kawazbe ? a name that he and they agree is merely a corruption of Kuzeiba, the original name of the famous Bar Kokhba. ?These people are the descendants of Bar Kokhba,? Cohen declares. One Arab sitting with him can count his ancestors eight generations back, ending with a grandfather named Kawazbeh. Another village elder says openly that his grandfather was a Jew who converted to Islam. Some of the residents want to return to Judaism; they don?t call it converting, because they are ?already Jewish.? On the other hand, Arabs with the name Kawazbeh have been arrested for terrorist activity against Israel. Other areas where Arabs of Jewish descent reside are Kfar Anzah in Samaria, Samoa in southern Judea, villages in the Tel Arad area, and more. Rabbi Stein says, ?We know that up to about 200 years ago, the Galilee village of Sakhnin was a Jewish town, with an active synagogue. The Turks pressured them to convert to Islam, but the people there know that they are of Jewish origins.? Web IM has arrived! Use Windows Live Messenger from your Hotmail inbox _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a place to rent, share or buy this winter? Find your next place with Ninemsn?property http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Edomain%2Ecom%2Eau%2F%3Fs%5Fcid%3DFDMedia%3ANineMSN%5FHotmail%5FTagline&_t=774152450&_r=Domain_tagline&_m=EXT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090819/caaf149a/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 19 22:03:34 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: <3811FA6B-9D70-4299-A6BF-F35DC2AB4608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <509043.98981.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> James, ? You make some excellent points here,?which open up lines of query of their own! I find especially telling?your observations on the tribes involved in the blessing in spite of their own 'curses'. I am sure there is much more to this than first meets the eye, and plan to dig deeper (pun intended). Who knows what I might unearth? ? Thanks for your response and insights, ? Glenn --- On Tue, 8/18/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 9:14 PM This is a great question Glenn and various interpreters have suggested many things over the years but without any definitive resolution so far as I can determine. This grouping has nothing to do with the encampments or the order of the tribes when they took up stakes (literal Hebrew here!), see Numbers 2:1-31; 10:11-33. There we find the groups: North: Naphtali, Asher, Dan West: Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin South: Gad Simeon, Reuben East: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun One thing that greatly interests me is the language of Ezekiel 37 and section on the "two sticks" (literally "two woods or trees). There we read about Judah and Joseph and their respective "chaverim," i.e. tribes associated with each. It sounds like certain tribes more or less are associated with Judah & Joseph in groups, which I take it are not just the south (Judah & Benjamin) and the north (Joseph/10 tribes). As you note, the tribes on Gerizim include Judah and Joseph, so the "northern" and "southern" history of the tribes, and/or their behavior, does not seem to have much to do with this setup. Also, in terms of the individual tribes notice that Simeon and Levi, that get the very worst word from Jacob (Gen 49), and even are put under a "curse," for their cruelty and violence, are with the "blessing" group. So far I have not come across a suggestion that I find makes much sense... Thanks for bringing this up. James On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:23 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: All, I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, Glenn_______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090819/e2d7489a/attachment.html From tammyhulon at msn.com Wed Aug 19 22:32:15 2009 From: tammyhulon at msn.com (Tammy Hulon) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:32:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: <3811FA6B-9D70-4299-A6BF-F35DC2AB4608@earthlink.net> References: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3811FA6B-9D70-4299-A6BF-F35DC2AB4608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Shalom, We (Beth Lechem) just finished this studying this chapter of Devarim 27 a couple of weeks ago. We too did not come to a firm conclusion on why the tribes were divided in this way. I did notice, however, that the tribes listed on Mt. Gerizim, the mount of blessing, were all from the wives of Yaacov, and not the maid servants. There are, however, still two tribes from the wives (Rachel and Leah) listed on Mount Ebal, Reuven and Zebulun. Also, if you look at the Hebrew Devarim 27:12 & 13, I find it interesting that each name(tribe) on Mt. Gerizim is connected with a "vav" or the word "and" to the next name (tribe) listed. They are all attached to one another. So there are six "vav"s. In the list for Mt. Ebal there are only three "vav"s attaching Gad to Asher, Zebulun to Dan, and Dan to Naptali. I am not sure what this means yet, but I know the "vav" has the gematria (numerical value) of 6, which is the number of a man. Also, when you add up the last census of the men of the tribes, I was amazed at how close the division was to being equal. The census of the tribes on Mt. Gerizim would come to 316,800 and on Mt. Ebal, 307,930. - an 8,870 men difference. It sounds like a lot, but when you are working with over 600,000, it seems small. This information is not conclusive of course, but maybe it will spark a thought that is. For further study of Devarim 27, I noticed that the curses that were to be spoken, were sins most likely committed in secrecy. - i.e. setting up a image in secret, forbidden relationships, taking a bribe, moving a landmark, perverting justice, striking a brother in secrecy, etc. The word secret is used two times in this chapter. If you think about it, the sins mentioned, if done in secrecy, would have to be judged by YHWH, not by a Sanhedrin or a father. That is where the "cursed be the man" would definitely come in to reality. Tami From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:14:08 -0400 This is a great question Glenn and various interpreters have suggested many things over the years but without any definitive resolution so far as I can determine. This grouping has nothing to do with the encampments or the order of the tribes when they took up stakes (literal Hebrew here!), see Numbers 2:1-31; 10:11-33. There we find the groups: North: Naphtali, Asher, Dan West: Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin South: Gad Simeon, Reuben East: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun One thing that greatly interests me is the language of Ezekiel 37 and section on the "two sticks" (literally "two woods or trees). There we read about Judah and Joseph and their respective "chaverim," i.e. tribes associated with each. It sounds like certain tribes more or less are associated with Judah & Joseph in groups, which I take it are not just the south (Judah & Benjamin) and the north (Joseph/10 tribes). As you note, the tribes on Gerizim include Judah and Joseph, so the "northern" and "southern" history of the tribes, and/or their behavior, does not seem to have much to do with this setup. Also, in terms of the individual tribes notice that Simeon and Levi, that get the very worst word from Jacob (Gen 49), and even are put under a "curse," for their cruelty and violence, are with the "blessing" group. So far I have not come across a suggestion that I find makes much sense... Thanks for bringing this up. James On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:23 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: All, I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, Glenn_______________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090819/222ab3a2/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Wed Aug 19 21:12:59 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:12:59 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01c601ca213b$beb7bce0$3c2736a0$@com> Hi Dave, I really appreciate your sincere effort here, but I don't think you can mend something like this. I think the solution is to LET IT GO. It is only one post from this person and may not reflect his overall views. The unfortunate thing about e-mail is that it is almost carved in stone - which may not be the intention of the writer. In cyberspace it is so easy to write down a fleeting thought and then before you know it, "Oh Sh-t, I hit the SEND button." I myself am guilty of this. And I have also been in the same situation, wondering if everyone hates me for what I did, or, how can I fix this.etc. It has been done to me personally and I have done it to others. But we must remember two things: 1) As human beings, this is normal, and; 2) There is nothing here that is unforgiveable. I think we should welcome both Dan and Web back with open arms. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla There is a 800 pound gorilla in the room.......that no one is allowed to talk about. There were e-mail posts several weeks ago that discussed what the purpose of this list was.....there was some discussion of this, this led to the subject of leadership at which time the discussions started to warmed up. Next as I remember, some folks were misunderstood and this led to a very graphic post by my friend Dan T. (I should add, from my own internet router).... towards Web H. As soon as this e-mail hit the board I Prayed that there was some way to get it off the list. When this letter posted, Web, Ross, James, and others from the Beth Lechem congregation were in a meeting together in North Carolina at the time discussing leadership and this very list. I am glad not to have been in that room. Remember no mater what is posted, once it is posted it can not be removed from the mail server. Ross very quickly basically turned the list off and no ones posting made it through for several days if not a week! Then it was decided that we need to be able to "see" a post before it is permanent, with no way to take it down, so to speak. This could have been done with out letting everyone know it......(and would have been right in doing this). So far, after the first week of Ross deciding what needed to be done, only One Email post has been stopped since. Remember that the first week Ross stopped all posting, and I am sure some of you may have not gotten through. The Post that was declined was one that appered to be a non member and had some strange looking code that I felt may be a virus....so it was not allowed....other than that no discussion has been censored....only looked at for inappropriate content....... Several members from the Beth Lechem group stopped their subscription to this list....(I would have expected that they all stopped). But the list of folks that left was/is short. Several have subscribed since. Remeber anyone may subscribe (it is public) and they may not say hello for a while.....This was one of Ross' main concerns at the time, these new members. If any of your post are refused then you will get a response from Ross explaining why.... James Tabors post a few minutes ago explains the difference of moderation and censorship........ Lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in OUR room! (if in fact there is one??????) Baseless LOVE rules!!!!! dave dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090819/1318f7f5/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Thu Aug 20 09:22:33 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:22:33 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla References: <01c601ca213b$beb7bce0$3c2736a0$@com> Message-ID: Yes I agree Patty, I can not mend this e-mail list.....it will take all parties involved to work together. At this point it is up to those still involved with this list..at this time Dan and Web have removed themselves from this list (their choice). They are welcome to rejoin at any time! The main motivation for my post was to counter some contending that we were not allowed to talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room'. I am divided on how to approach this....part of me says talk about it, part of me feels that we need to LET IT GO and go on! hopefully we can talk about it AND move on. Many on this list have done just that and are posting "biblical" content that we can all discuss. On the recent posts...( A Question from Re'eh )...I have been studying about the tribes and how they differed. unity, diversity, how they became separated ...what separated them and what kept them united.....was it the will of G-d to divide them and become separated.....why were they lost, how can they be reunited....who are they...ect ect. Being divided and in unity seems to address both subjects...(800 pound gorilla and a question from Re'eh). Thus.... United Israel World Union...... and the dialogue on this subject. Are we learning here? dave ----- Original Message ---- From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla Hi Dave, I really appreciate your sincere effort here, but I don't think you can mend something like this. I think the solution is to LET IT GO. It is only one post from this person and may not reflect his overall views. The unfortunate thing about e-mail is that it is almost carved in stone - which may not be the intention of the writer. In cyberspace it is so easy to write down a fleeting thought and then before you know it, "Oh Sh-t, I hit the SEND button." I myself am guilty of this. And I have also been in the same situation, wondering if everyone hates me for what I did, or, how can I fix this.etc. It has been done to me personally and I have done it to others. But we must remember two things: 1) As human beings, this is normal, and; 2) There is nothing here that is unforgiveable. I think we should welcome both Dan and Web back with open arms. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla There is a 800 pound gorilla in the room.......that no one is allowed to talk about. There were e-mail posts several weeks ago that discussed what the purpose of this list was.....there was some discussion of this, this led to the subject of leadership at which time the discussions started to warmed up. Next as I remember, some folks were misunderstood and this led to a very graphic post by my friend Dan T. (I should add, from my own internet router).... towards Web H. As soon as this e-mail hit the board I Prayed that there was some way to get it off the list. When this letter posted, Web, Ross, James, and others from the Beth Lechem congregation were in a meeting together in North Carolina at the time discussing leadership and this very list. I am glad not to have been in that room. Remember no mater what is posted, once it is posted it can not be removed from the mail server. Ross very quickly basically turned the list off and no ones posting made it through for several days if not a week! Then it was decided that we need to be able to "see" a post before it is permanent, with no way to take it down, so to speak. This could have been done with out letting everyone know it......(and would have been right in doing this). So far, after the first week of Ross deciding what needed to be done, only One Email post has been stopped since. Remember that the first week Ross stopped all posting, and I am sure some of you may have not gotten through. The Post that was declined was one that appered to be a non member and had some strange looking code that I felt may be a virus....so it was not allowed....other than that no discussion has been censored....only looked at for inappropriate content....... Several members from the Beth Lechem group stopped their subscription to this list....(I would have expected that they all stopped). But the list of folks that left was/is short. Several have subscribed since. Remeber anyone may subscribe (it is public) and they may not say hello for a while.....This was one of Ross' main concerns at the time, these new members. If any of your post are refused then you will get a response from Ross explaining why.... James Tabors post a few minutes ago explains the difference of moderation and censorship........ Lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in OUR room! (if in fact there is one??????) Baseless LOVE rules!!!!! dave dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090820/1ab7c8c4/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 20 11:37:01 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 09:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <801764.4329.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tami, ? Your repsonse provides even more food for thought. I find it more than coincidental that this would have been a topic of recent study by your community. I am of the opinion that there is an important message here for us. ? Shalom, ? Glenn --- On Wed, 8/19/09, Tammy Hulon wrote: From: Tammy Hulon Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 19, 2009, 10:32 PM #yiv224188578 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv224188578 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} Shalom, ? We (Beth Lechem) just finished this studying this chapter of Devarim?27 a couple of weeks ago.? We too did not come to a firm conclusion on?why the tribes were divided in?this way.? I did notice, however, that the tribes listed on?Mt. Gerizim, the mount of blessing, were all from the wives of Yaacov, and not the maid servants.? There are, however, still two tribes from the wives (Rachel and Leah) listed on?Mount Ebal, Reuven and Zebulun. ? Also, if you look at the Hebrew Devarim 27:12 & 13,?I find it interesting that each name(tribe) on?Mt. Gerizim is connected with a?"vav" or the word "and" to the next name (tribe) listed.? They are all attached to one another.? So there are six "vav"s.? In the list for Mt. Ebal there are only three?"vav"s attaching Gad to Asher, Zebulun to Dan, and Dan to Naptali.? I am not sure what?this means yet, but I know the?"vav" has the gematria (numerical value) of 6, which is the number of a man.?? ? ? Also, when you add up the last census of the men of the tribes, I was amazed at how?close the division was to being equal.??The?census of the tribes on Mt. Gerizim would come to 316,800 and?on Mt.?Ebal, 307,930. - an 8,870 men difference.? It sounds like a lot, but when you are working with over?600,000, it seems?small. ? This information is not conclusive of course, but maybe it will spark a thought that is. ? For further study of Devarim 27, I noticed that the curses that were to be spoken, were?sins most likely?committed in secrecy. - i.e. setting up a image in secret,?forbidden relationships,?taking a bribe, moving a landmark, perverting justice, striking a brother in secrecy, etc.? The word secret is?used two times in this chapter.? If you think about it, the sins mentioned, if done in secrecy, would have to be judged by YHWH, not by a Sanhedrin or a father.? That is where the "cursed be the man" would definitely come in to reality.? ? ? Tami? ? ? From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:14:08 -0400 This is a great question Glenn and various interpreters have suggested many things over the years but without any definitive resolution so far as I can determine. This grouping has nothing to do with the encampments or the order of the tribes when they took up stakes (literal Hebrew here!), see Numbers 2:1-31; 10:11-33. There we find the groups: North: Naphtali, Asher, Dan West: Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin South: Gad Simeon, Reuben East: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun One thing that greatly interests me is the language of Ezekiel 37 and section on the "two sticks" (literally "two woods or trees). There we read about Judah and Joseph and their respective "chaverim," i.e. tribes associated with each. It sounds like certain tribes more or less are associated with Judah & Joseph in groups, which I take it are not just the south (Judah & Benjamin) and the north (Joseph/10 tribes). As you note, the tribes on Gerizim include Judah and Joseph, so the "northern" and "southern" history of the tribes, and/or their behavior, does not seem to have much to do with this setup. Also, in terms of the individual tribes notice that Simeon and Levi, that get the very worst word from Jacob (Gen 49), and even are put under a "curse," for their cruelty and violence, are with the "blessing" group. So far I have not come across a suggestion that I find makes much sense... Thanks for bringing this up. James On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:23 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: All, I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, Glenn_______________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook. Find out more. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090820/ede96da4/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 20 15:44:10 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 16:44:10 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh In-Reply-To: References: <708421.15296.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <3811FA6B-9D70-4299-A6BF-F35DC2AB4608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks so much for this Tammy. These are truly fascinating observations, every one of them. I want to process them and continue to think about all of this. James On Aug 19, 2009, at 11:32 PM, Tammy Hulon wrote: > Shalom, > > We (Beth Lechem) just finished this studying this chapter of Devarim > 27 a couple of weeks ago. We too did not come to a firm conclusion > on why the tribes were divided in this way. I did notice, however, > that the tribes listed on Mt. Gerizim, the mount of blessing, were > all from the wives of Yaacov, and not the maid servants. There are, > however, still two tribes from the wives (Rachel and Leah) listed on > Mount Ebal, Reuven and Zebulun. > > Also, if you look at the Hebrew Devarim 27:12 & 13, I find it > interesting that each name(tribe) on Mt. Gerizim is connected with a > "vav" or the word "and" to the next name (tribe) listed. They are > all attached to one another. So there are six "vav"s. In the list > for Mt. Ebal there are only three "vav"s attaching Gad to Asher, > Zebulun to Dan, and Dan to Naptali. I am not sure what this means > yet, but I know the "vav" has the gematria (numerical value) of 6, > which is the number of a man. > > > Also, when you add up the last census of the men of the tribes, I > was amazed at how close the division was to being equal. The census > of the tribes on Mt. Gerizim would come to 316,800 and on Mt. Ebal, > 307,930. - an 8,870 men difference. It sounds like a lot, but when > you are working with over 600,000, it seems small. > > This information is not conclusive of course, but maybe it will > spark a thought that is. > > For further study of Devarim 27, I noticed that the curses that were > to be spoken, were sins most likely committed in secrecy. - i.e. > setting up a image in secret, forbidden relationships, taking a > bribe, moving a landmark, perverting justice, striking a brother in > secrecy, etc. The word secret is used two times in this chapter. > If you think about it, the sins mentioned, if done in secrecy, would > have to be judged by YHWH, not by a Sanhedrin or a father. That is > where the "cursed be the man" would definitely come in to reality. > > > Tami > > > > From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Question from Re'eh > Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 22:14:08 -0400 > > This is a great question Glenn and various interpreters have > suggested many things over the years but without any definitive > resolution so far as I can determine. This grouping has nothing to > do with the encampments or the order of the tribes when they took up > stakes (literal Hebrew here!), see Numbers 2:1-31; 10:11-33. There > we find the groups: > > North: Naphtali, Asher, Dan > West: Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin > South: Gad Simeon, Reuben > East: Judah, Issachar, Zebulun > > One thing that greatly interests me is the language of Ezekiel 37 > and section on the "two sticks" (literally "two woods or trees). > There we read about Judah and Joseph and their respective > "chaverim," i.e. tribes associated with each. It sounds like certain > tribes more or less are associated with Judah & Joseph in groups, > which I take it are not just the south (Judah & Benjamin) and the > north (Joseph/10 tribes). As you note, the tribes on Gerizim include > Judah and Joseph, so the "northern" and "southern" history of the > tribes, and/or their behavior, does not seem to have much to do with > this setup. > > Also, in terms of the individual tribes notice that Simeon and Levi, > that get the very worst word from Jacob (Gen 49), and even are put > under a "curse," for their cruelty and violence, are with the > "blessing" group. > > So far I have not come across a suggestion that I find makes much > sense... > > Thanks for bringing this up. > > James > > > > > On Aug 16, 2009, at 2:23 PM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > > > All, > > I saw this in our last reading and wanted to pose the question to > the list. The reference is Deuteronomy 11:29. Why did Moshe instruct > that the the blessing should be put on Mount Gerizim, and the curse > on Mount Ebal? This idea is carried out further in Deuteronomy > 27:12, where specific tribes are called upon to perform the blessing > (Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin) and the curse > (Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali). The actual > pronouncement is recorded in Joshua 8:33. > > I covet your thoughts and insights on this matter, > > Glenn > _______________________________________________ > > > Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up > to on Facebook. Find out > more._______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090820/b5d4536c/attachment.html From ptyler at aac-usa.com Thu Aug 20 09:41:05 2009 From: ptyler at aac-usa.com (Patty ) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:41:05 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla In-Reply-To: References: <01c601ca213b$beb7bce0$3c2736a0$@com> Message-ID: <020a01ca21a4$4173c620$c45b5260$@com> Okay, I see what you are saying. I guess we should be allowed to talk about it, but why would we want to? Unless something good can come from it, we may be just stirring up more negativity. Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:23 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla Yes I agree Patty, I can not mend this e-mail list.....it will take all parties involved to work together. At this point it is up to those still involved with this list..at this time Dan and Web have removed themselves from this list (their choice). They are welcome to rejoin at any time! The main motivation for my post was to counter some contending that we were not allowed to talk about the 800 pound gorilla in the room'. I am divided on how to approach this....part of me says talk about it, part of me feels that we need to LET IT GO and go on! hopefully we can talk about it AND move on. Many on this list have done just that and are posting "biblical" content that we can all discuss. On the recent posts...( A Question from Re'eh )...I have been studying about the tribes and how they differed. unity, diversity, how they became separated ...what separated them and what kept them united.....was it the will of G-d to divide them and become separated.....why were they lost, how can they be reunited....who are they...ect ect. Being divided and in unity seems to address both subjects...(800 pound gorilla and a question from Re'eh). Thus.... United Israel World Union...... and the dialogue on this subject. Are we learning here? dave ----- Original Message ---- From: Patty To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: RE: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla Hi Dave, I really appreciate your sincere effort here, but I don't think you can mend something like this. I think the solution is to LET IT GO. It is only one post from this person and may not reflect his overall views. The unfortunate thing about e-mail is that it is almost carved in stone - which may not be the intention of the writer. In cyberspace it is so easy to write down a fleeting thought and then before you know it, "Oh Sh-t, I hit the SEND button." I myself am guilty of this. And I have also been in the same situation, wondering if everyone hates me for what I did, or, how can I fix this.etc. It has been done to me personally and I have done it to others. But we must remember two things: 1) As human beings, this is normal, and; 2) There is nothing here that is unforgiveable. I think we should welcome both Dan and Web back with open arms. Blessings, Patty From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cole Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 8:50 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] 800 pound gorilla There is a 800 pound gorilla in the room.......that no one is allowed to talk about. There were e-mail posts several weeks ago that discussed what the purpose of this list was.....there was some discussion of this, this led to the subject of leadership at which time the discussions started to warmed up. Next as I remember, some folks were misunderstood and this led to a very graphic post by my friend Dan T. (I should add, from my own internet router).... towards Web H. As soon as this e-mail hit the board I Prayed that there was some way to get it off the list. When this letter posted, Web, Ross, James, and others from the Beth Lechem congregation were in a meeting together in North Carolina at the time discussing leadership and this very list. I am glad not to have been in that room. Remember no mater what is posted, once it is posted it can not be removed from the mail server. Ross very quickly basically turned the list off and no ones posting made it through for several days if not a week! Then it was decided that we need to be able to "see" a post before it is permanent, with no way to take it down, so to speak. This could have been done with out letting everyone know it......(and would have been right in doing this). So far, after the first week of Ross deciding what needed to be done, only One Email post has been stopped since. Remember that the first week Ross stopped all posting, and I am sure some of you may have not gotten through. The Post that was declined was one that appered to be a non member and had some strange looking code that I felt may be a virus....so it was not allowed....other than that no discussion has been censored....only looked at for inappropriate content....... Several members from the Beth Lechem group stopped their subscription to this list....(I would have expected that they all stopped). But the list of folks that left was/is short. Several have subscribed since. Remeber anyone may subscribe (it is public) and they may not say hello for a while.....This was one of Ross' main concerns at the time, these new members. If any of your post are refused then you will get a response from Ross explaining why.... James Tabors post a few minutes ago explains the difference of moderation and censorship........ Lets talk about the 800 pound gorilla in OUR room! (if in fact there is one??????) Baseless LOVE rules!!!!! dave dave _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090820/48ab1ab6/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 23 07:48:28 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 08:48:28 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue Message-ID: <93AFF07F-B0F2-436F-A77A-46E5EB5EE366@earthlink.net> Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, and then coming across this very wonderful piece by Rabbi Riskin in the Jerusalem Post, I have had much to ponder this weekend. I wanted to pass on the latter: Parshat Shoftim: The guilty conscience of the world Aug. 20, 2009 Shlomo Riskin , THE JERUSALEM POST "Righteousness, righteousness shall you pursue, in order that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God has given to you" (Deuteronomy 16:20). If Judaism had a mission statement, what might it be? How should we guide our actions? How can we sort out the incidental from the essence so that the ideas and ideals to which we bear witness (as Isaiah teaches, "You are My witnesses," says God) do not get lost in the latest scandal threatening to undermine our exalted mission? Furthermore, is there a connection between the vocation ("calling") of Israel and the tear-stained, blood-soaked history of our nation, between the "curses" we experienced at the destruction of both Temples and the anti-Semitic persecutions of our long exile, continuing today with the losses we suffer in war and terrorist attacks? Why has Israel as a nation not known a day of genuine peace since its rebirth 61 years ago? I feel hounded by these questions because of images which keep returning to my mind. First the beautiful, gentle and innocent face of Uriel Liwerant of blessed memory, his clear and sensitive eyes framed by slightly lop-sided glasses, his humble, bashful smile, and his quick and steady mind dedicated to the study of Torah. Uriel was a beloved child of Efrat, a 21-year-old tank commander who was killed when his tank overturned while crossing a bridge during a military training maneuver. And then other images, clashing with the sweet goodness of Uriel, plague my mind, people who should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Uriel. I'm speaking of the latest violator of a great public trust, Bernard Madoff, with his baseball cap and supercilious smile, arguably among the worst scoundrels of all time. And just several weeks ago we witnessed rabbis from New Jersey being taken away by the FBI for money-laundering and fraud perpetrated through talmudic institutions they headed. And here in Israel a prominent leader of a major religious political party, bearing the title of rabbi, is sentenced to a lengthy prison term for accepting bribes and violating the public trust. I feel tainted and ashamed, embarrassed. The verse quoted above about the pursuit of righteousness must guide our steps. We must return to basics and understand why God "elected" us in the first place. Who was the first truly righteous man in the Torah? Abraham was not chosen because he was a rich sheep owner, or because he had a brilliant mind. "...I have known, loved and appointed [Abraham] in order that he command his children and household after him to observe the way of the Lord, which is to do compassionate righteousness [tzedaka] and moral justice [mishpat]." This is why God promised to "make of Abraham a great and powerful nation through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed" (Genesis 18:18,19). If we have any doubt as to Abraham's "mission," all we have to do is turn to the following verse and note that the subject is the ethical and moral corruption of Sodom and Gomorrah, the direct cause of their destruction. Clearly, what God expects of Abraham and his descendants is to teach compassionate righteousness and moral justice to the world: Only if these principles of ethical action become the sacred legacy of humanity will the nations be blessed with freedom and peace, secure in their knowledge that belligerence and selfishness have been replaced by conciliation and generosity. Israel's "mission" is repeated right before God enters into a covenant with His nation and reveals the Ten Commandments of universal morality: "And now, if you shall internalize, indeed internalize My voice and observe My covenant, you shall be for Me a treasure from among all nations; for the entire earth is Mine. You must be for Me a kingdom of priest teachers and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5,6; see S'forno ad loc). Our covenantal position in the world - indeed the very continued existence of the world - depends on our success in bringing these values to the nations. And it's basic common sense that if we ourselves do not display the moral courage of these ideals, we will not be able to teach them to the world! The Bible warns us twice, in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, (warnings which Nahmanides identifies as prophecies of the destruction of the two Temples) that if we reject this ethical covenant, we will have to suffer at the hands of the nations we were unable to teach. Isaiah declares that God despises our attentiveness to ritual if we turn a blind eye to the widow and the orphan. He rejects the prayers of "observant" Jews whose hands are filled with blood or ill-gotten gains. "Learn well: seek moral justice, straighten out world corruption, judge the orphan, plead the case for the widow... Zion shall be redeemed [only] by means of moral justice, and her residents will return only by means of righteous compassion" - tzedaka u- mishpat, the two virtues which were the basis for Abraham's initial election. Hence, when Isaiah calls on Israel to rouse itself, to bedeck itself in the garments of Zion's glory, to shake off the dust (of exile), arise and return to Jerusalem (Isaiah 52), he also admonishes Israel to understand that it is the suffering servant, scorned and bereft and hurt, covered in ashes, racked with suffering; bearing the world's iniquities, the sores that come from a willingness to suffer evil and ignore the violation of the innocent (Isaiah 53). Israel is the heart of the world, its conscience. Unfortunately we suffer because we did not - and are not - fulfilling our mission to teach the nations. And now even the best of us are under the illusion that being religious means eating a Shabbat cholent after synagogue or attending a concert with separate seating. The prophet Jeremiah tells us what we must honor: "Thus says the Lord: do not praise the wise person for his wisdom; do not praise the strong person for his strength; do not praise the wealthy person for his wealth. But for this shall be praised the praiseworthy: understand and know Me, because I am the Lord who does lovingkindness, moral justice and compassionate righteousness on earth, because it is these that I love, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 9:22,23). The writer is the founder and chancellor of Ohr Torah Stone Colleges and Graduate Programs, and chief rabbi of Efrat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/7cf21400/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 23 15:40:42 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:40:42 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Free at Last Message-ID: <14C28E0F61ED465BAB89656A6A3C2B64@davesbook> To all dialogue members..... I am pleased to announce that this List is once again NOT moderated. http://rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list This is the link to refresh the concept of this e-mail list. We are all asked to refresh ourselves with this vision of dialogue. This weeks reading was amazing in that it dealt with fairness, ect.... as James Tabor posted earlier.... "Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, I have had much to ponder this weekend." (quote edited for content.....) I have had much to ponder of late also.......I truly am amazed at how each of our steps are guided. Hopefully we can get about the business at hand...The restoration of a people that should be a light unto a darkened world! Lets learn to talk! dave ps....Ross is on the road to visit his mother in Texas at this moment.....He asked that we pray as she is undergoing some medical tests. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/cfcea4cc/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Sun Aug 23 18:02:16 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:02:16 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue References: <93AFF07F-B0F2-436F-A77A-46E5EB5EE366@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <62242C9CAFF849F5ABCE75FB029DCB4D@davesbook> Here is the link for Glenn's teaching on this weeks Torah portion. http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video enjoy dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 7:48 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, and then coming across this very wonderful piece by Rabbi Riskin in the Jerusalem Post, I have had much to ponder this weekend. I wanted to pass on the latter: Parshat Shoftim: The guilty conscience of the world Aug. 20, 2009 Shlomo Riskin , THE JERUSALEM POST "Righteousness, righteousness shall you pursue, in order that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God has given to you" (Deuteronomy 16:20). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/f6fe2e74/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 23 18:12:43 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:12:43 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue In-Reply-To: <93AFF07F-B0F2-436F-A77A-46E5EB5EE366@earthlink.net> References: <93AFF07F-B0F2-436F-A77A-46E5EB5EE366@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks, James! Though I missed Glenn's teaching yesterday, I know it was from the heart of a man who loves HaShem with all his might, and truly believe it will be very edifying. I always expect wisdom to pour forth from Glenn. So appreciate this wonderful piece by Rabbi Riskin that you posted for us. After reading it, I just have to speak what's in my heart. I most sincerely believe that it is the mission of Judaism to pursue and teach righteousness to the world. As far as I can glean from Scripture, they are G-d's chosen of the tribes (Zech. 8:23) to lead the rest of us Home. They stand on the front lines, taking the brunt of hatred from a world opposed to doing things HaShem's Way. In my opinion, the words from Isaiah, quoted below, calling us to be HaShem's witnesses extend to our witness of willingness to submit to Judah's leadership. Many of us come from a background of having followed a Jewish Rabbi who lived many centuries ago, and taught us the words of the Sages who went before him, just as the rabbis do to this very day. When he was slain, his brother took his place in leading the great numbers (mostly Jews) who were following him. His brother, James, taught that those G-d-Fearers who were coming from non-Jewish backgrounds should go to their local Synagogues where Moses is taught every Shabbat and learn from the rabbis. In other words, the rabbinic teachings were to be a continuation of what he had taught. I remember when I first began classes with the Rabbi, I was amazed to find his teaching sounded so familiar - until I realized that both the ancient rabbi and the modern rabbi had learned from the same Sages and the same Torah! Then as I continued to learn, I found that I had truly only scratched the surface of understanding up until that time. There was so much more to learn! If we could spend our entire lives studying all day every day, there would still be untold depth to gain from Torah, and our brothers, the Jews, have about a 2,500 year head start on us! In my opinion, we are obligated to pursue righteousness, by following Judah, supporting the People and the Land of Israel, and listening attentively, because as Rabbi Riskin asserts: "Israel is the heart of the world, its conscience." We are very blessed to be alive at this Time in World History. We will very likely be the generation to witness the coming of Mashiach ben David. How sad it would be to miss his appearance because we were looking for him in the wrong places, bereft of the Torah-based ideal of who and what he truly is. HaShem forbid we actually find ourselves in opposition to him because of lack of understanding on our part! We can count on the fact that he won't have a soft spot for idolatry! He will come to his own. He will look like they look. He will speak Hebrew and passionately uphold Torah. He will go to the Synagogues and Yeshivas of Israel. He will be from Judah and they will know him. If we are to recognize him, we must follow Judah, because that is HaShem's Plan. We must look for HaShem's Mashiac where he will be found, among his achim (brothers) in the Land. We must keep learning from the Rabbis so that we are able to discern the footsteps of Mashiach's approach. May we be so blessed as to have ears to hear and eyes to see the one who is our G-d's anointed. I fully realize that the opinions expressed here are my own, and would very much welcome hearing other's opinions concerning Judah having been given the role to lead us. Love and Shavua Tov to all, Pat From: James Tabor Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:48 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, and then coming across this very wonderful piece by Rabbi Riskin in the Jerusalem Post, I have had much to ponder this weekend. I wanted to pass on the latter: Parshat Shoftim: The guilty conscience of the world Aug. 20, 2009 Shlomo Riskin , THE JERUSALEM POST "Righteousness, righteousness shall you pursue, in order that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God has given to you" (Deuteronomy 16:20). If Judaism had a mission statement, what might it be? How should we guide our actions? How can we sort out the incidental from the essence so that the ideas and ideals to which we bear witness (as Isaiah teaches, "You are My witnesses," says God) do not get lost in the latest scandal threatening to undermine our exalted mission? Furthermore, is there a connection between the vocation ("calling") of Israel and the tear-stained, blood-soaked history of our nation, between the "curses" we experienced at the destruction of both Temples and the anti-Semitic persecutions of our long exile, continuing today with the losses we suffer in war and terrorist attacks? Why has Israel as a nation not known a day of genuine peace since its rebirth 61 years ago? I feel hounded by these questions because of images which keep returning to my mind. First the beautiful, gentle and innocent face of Uriel Liwerant of blessed memory, his clear and sensitive eyes framed by slightly lop-sided glasses, his humble, bashful smile, and his quick and steady mind dedicated to the study of Torah. Uriel was a beloved child of Efrat, a 21-year-old tank commander who was killed when his tank overturned while crossing a bridge during a military training maneuver. And then other images, clashing with the sweet goodness of Uriel, plague my mind, people who should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Uriel. I'm speaking of the latest violator of a great public trust, Bernard Madoff, with his baseball cap and supercilious smile, arguably among the worst scoundrels of all time. And just several weeks ago we witnessed rabbis from New Jersey being taken away by the FBI for money-laundering and fraud perpetrated through talmudic institutions they headed. And here in Israel a prominent leader of a major religious political party, bearing the title of rabbi, is sentenced to a lengthy prison term for accepting bribes and violating the public trust. I feel tainted and ashamed, embarrassed. The verse quoted above about the pursuit of righteousness must guide our steps. We must return to basics and understand why God "elected" us in the first place. Who was the first truly righteous man in the Torah? Abraham was not chosen because he was a rich sheep owner, or because he had a brilliant mind. "...I have known, loved and appointed [Abraham] in order that he command his children and household after him to observe the way of the Lord, which is to do compassionate righteousness [tzedaka] and moral justice [mishpat]." This is why God promised to "make of Abraham a great and powerful nation through whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed" (Genesis 18:18,19). If we have any doubt as to Abraham's "mission," all we have to do is turn to the following verse and note that the subject is the ethical and moral corruption of Sodom and Gomorrah, the direct cause of their destruction. Clearly, what God expects of Abraham and his descendants is to teach compassionate righteousness and moral justice to the world: Only if these principles of ethical action become the sacred legacy of humanity will the nations be blessed with freedom and peace, secure in their knowledge that belligerence and selfishness have been replaced by conciliation and generosity. Israel's "mission" is repeated right before God enters into a covenant with His nation and reveals the Ten Commandments of universal morality: "And now, if you shall internalize, indeed internalize My voice and observe My covenant, you shall be for Me a treasure from among all nations; for the entire earth is Mine. You must be for Me a kingdom of priest teachers and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5,6; see S'forno ad loc). Our covenantal position in the world - indeed the very continued existence of the world - depends on our success in bringing these values to the nations. And it's basic common sense that if we ourselves do not display the moral courage of these ideals, we will not be able to teach them to the world! The Bible warns us twice, in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, (warnings which Nahmanides identifies as prophecies of the destruction of the two Temples) that if we reject this ethical covenant, we will have to suffer at the hands of the nations we were unable to teach. Isaiah declares that God despises our attentiveness to ritual if we turn a blind eye to the widow and the orphan. He rejects the prayers of "observant" Jews whose hands are filled with blood or ill-gotten gains. "Learn well: seek moral justice, straighten out world corruption, judge the orphan, plead the case for the widow... Zion shall be redeemed [only] by means of moral justice, and her residents will return only by means of righteous compassion" - tzedaka u-mishpat, the two virtues which were the basis for Abraham's initial election. Hence, when Isaiah calls on Israel to rouse itself, to bedeck itself in the garments of Zion's glory, to shake off the dust (of exile), arise and return to Jerusalem (Isaiah 52), he also admonishes Israel to understand that it is the suffering servant, scorned and bereft and hurt, covered in ashes, racked with suffering; bearing the world's iniquities, the sores that come from a willingness to suffer evil and ignore the violation of the innocent (Isaiah 53). Israel is the heart of the world, its conscience. Unfortunately we suffer because we did not - and are not - fulfilling our mission to teach the nations. And now even the best of us are under the illusion that being religious means eating a Shabbat cholent after synagogue or attending a concert with separate seating. The prophet Jeremiah tells us what we must honor: "Thus says the Lord: do not praise the wise person for his wisdom; do not praise the strong person for his strength; do not praise the wealthy person for his wealth. But for this shall be praised the praiseworthy: understand and know Me, because I am the Lord who does lovingkindness, moral justice and compassionate righteousness on earth, because it is these that I love, says the Lord" (Jeremiah 9:22,23). The writer is the founder and chancellor of Ohr Torah Stone Colleges and Graduate Programs, and chief rabbi of Efrat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/4259176c/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Aug 23 18:38:42 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:38:42 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] Free at Last In-Reply-To: <14C28E0F61ED465BAB89656A6A3C2B64@davesbook> References: <14C28E0F61ED465BAB89656A6A3C2B64@davesbook> Message-ID: <717FE6F0E00E441CAAAB29F1B5C0C325@Beeblebrox> What can we say but that we love you all, and thank YHVH (blessed be his holy name), for all of you who have a heart to follow the God of Israel ('those who strive with God'). You are all invaluable in our estimation, and it is an honour to be part of this great awakening, this rattling of dry bones! We shall live! There is no king but YHVH, blessed be he forever! Stephen and Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: [Dialogue] Free at Last To all dialogue members..... I am pleased to announce that this List is once again NOT moderated. http://rootsoffaith.org/dialogue-the-list This is the link to refresh the concept of this e-mail list. We are all asked to refresh ourselves with this vision of dialogue. This weeks reading was amazing in that it dealt with fairness, ect.... as James Tabor posted earlier.... "Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, I have had much to ponder this weekend." (quote edited for content.....) I have had much to ponder of late also.......I truly am amazed at how each of our steps are guided. Hopefully we can get about the business at hand...The restoration of a people that should be a light unto a darkened world! Lets learn to talk! dave ps....Ross is on the road to visit his mother in Texas at this moment.....He asked that we pray as she is undergoing some medical tests. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/c48318b3/attachment.html From shdennis at rogers.com Sun Aug 23 18:51:10 2009 From: shdennis at rogers.com (Stephen & Sharon) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:51:10 -0300 Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue References: <93AFF07F-B0F2-436F-A77A-46E5EB5EE366@earthlink.net> <62242C9CAFF849F5ABCE75FB029DCB4D@davesbook> Message-ID: <002b01ca244c$97b77ea0$65012b0a@toshiba> I was really encouraged by Glen's teaching this week. To the Torah and the testimony! Shalom Stephen ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Cole To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:02 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue Here is the link for Glenn's teaching on this weeks Torah portion. http://rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video enjoy dave ----- Original Message ----- From: James Tabor To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 7:48 AM Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue Having listened to Glenn's inspiring teaching yesterday via the Synagogue without Walls/Roots of Faith on this week's Torah portion, and then coming across this very wonderful piece by Rabbi Riskin in the Jerusalem Post, I have had much to ponder this weekend. I wanted to pass on the latter: Parshat Shoftim: The guilty conscience of the world Aug. 20, 2009 Shlomo Riskin , THE JERUSALEM POST "Righteousness, righteousness shall you pursue, in order that you may live and inherit the land which the Lord your God has given to you" (Deuteronomy 16:20). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090823/534f329b/attachment.html From dhcole1 at cox.net Mon Aug 24 19:29:07 2009 From: dhcole1 at cox.net (Dave Cole) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:29:07 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] test Message-ID: <22AD722BBEA64F7ABDF164220CEDD379@davesbook> no need to respond...we are playing with some settings dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090824/82540e0e/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 19:41:01 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:41:01 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Not making it easier to trust Ephraim.... Message-ID: <855590370908241741v3d77b4a9t71b906a4a4eecce1@mail.gmail.com> Erev tov - I just saw this article, and my first thought was: NOW the Rabbanim (Rabbis) in Israel will want to stay even further and further away from interfaith dialogue. It seems to always come down to stealing that Jewish soul. And Benedict, the Nazi Pope, of course. My favorite quote under my name is more true then I ever realized.... * Hanoch * * "No one counts on the Spanish Inquisition" * Monty Python US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews by Malkah Fleisher A June document issued by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), suggesting that interfaith dialogue conducted by Catholics with Jews should be used as an opportunity to missionize them, has disturbed and infuriated American Jews from all streams of practice. Entitled "A Note On Ambiguities Contained In Reflections On Covenant And Mission", the document references a 2002 missive on the topic of interfaith dialogue with the Jews written in coordination with the National Council of Synagogues by an advisory group to the USCCB's Committee on Ecumentical and Interreligious Affairs. The old document, although it affirmed missionary work in general and stated that interfaith dialogue could be "mutually enriching," specifically stated that Jews should not be sought for conversion, as they serve a purpose as "Jewish witnesses". However, the "Note on Ambiguities" revokes these understandings. In the new document, USCCB Bishops assert the centrality of missionary work to Catholic doctrine and suggest a finite divine covenant with the Jews: "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man." According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." The American Jewish world has erupted in response to the "Note on Ambiguities", with several organizations uniting to reply with "serious concern." Signed on August 18 by the American Jewish Committee, Anti-Defamation League (ADL), National Council of Synagogues, Orthodox Union, and Rabbinical Council of America, a letter posted on the ADL website says the "Note on Ambiguities" "engendered both uncertainty and considerable disappointment with respect to the position maintained by the Church and its spokespersons," with "invitations" to become Christian making Jewish participation in dialogue with the Church "untenable". While Pope John Paul II often spoke of a covenant "never revoked," the "Note on Ambiguities" seems to annul that position, with a harder-line stance on conversion being taken by new Pope Benedict XVI. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090824/0bfe98a2/attachment.html From chcashmore at hotmail.com Tue Aug 25 06:14:11 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 21:14:11 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] Justice, Justice, Shall You Pursue - Pat Message-ID: They were beautifully expressed words Pat - your sincere thoughts really hit my heart. May we all be humble enough to learn. (SO glad to hear the list is no longer 'moderated'.) _________________________________________________________________ What goes online, stays online Check the daily blob for the latest on what's happening around the web http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/blog.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090825/94cd8a6f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Tue Aug 25 07:29:15 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:29:15 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Not making it easier to trust Ephraim.... In-Reply-To: <855590370908241741v3d77b4a9t71b906a4a4eecce1@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908241741v3d77b4a9t71b906a4a4eecce1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F54E81C-C1A8-4F14-A94E-18B0B108DCEB@earthlink.net> Thanks for this Hanoch. The ADL document is also worth reading: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/5554_31.htm No matter how hard liberal forms of Christianity try to accommodate Jews or other religions in "ecumenical" dialogue the process is ultimately doomed because Christianity, with its incarnational salvation through Jesus Christ as God, is embedded in most all its forms from the 2nd century CE onward, stemming from the letters of Paul and the Gosple of John. I cover this in Restoring Abrahamic Faith, pp. 160ff as you know and in a major way in the new book on Paul I am just completing. It is good, in that sense, that this is coming out and being exposed. And yet, there are followers of Yeshua, even as Messiah, very few I grant you, who do not hold such views. Separating things is the problem. James On Aug 24, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Erev tov - > > I just saw this article, and my first thought was: NOW the > Rabbanim (Rabbis) in Israel will want to stay even further and > further away from interfaith dialogue. It seems to always come down > to stealing that Jewish soul. And Benedict, the Nazi Pope, of > course. My favorite quote under my name is more true then I ever > realized.... > Hanoch > "No one counts on the Spanish Inquisition" > Monty Python > > US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews > by Malkah Fleisher > > A June document issued by the United States Conference of Catholic > Bishops (USCCB), suggesting that interfaith dialogue conducted by > Catholics with Jews should be used as an opportunity to missionize > them, has disturbed and infuriated American Jews from all streams of > practice. > > Entitled "A Note On Ambiguities Contained In Reflections On Covenant > And Mission", the document references a 2002 missive on the topic of > interfaith dialogue with the Jews written in coordination with the > National Council of Synagogues by an advisory group to the USCCB's > Committee on Ecumentical and Interreligious Affairs. > > The old document, although it affirmed missionary work in general > and stated that interfaith dialogue could be "mutually enriching," > specifically stated that Jews should not be sought for conversion, > as they serve a purpose as "Jewish witnesses". > > However, the "Note on Ambiguities" revokes these understandings. In > the new document, USCCB Bishops assert the centrality of missionary > work to Catholic doctrine and suggest a finite divine covenant with > the Jews: "The long story of God's intervention in the history of > Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who > is God become man." According to the document, "we also believe > that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises > to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." > > The American Jewish world has erupted in response to the "Note on > Ambiguities", with several organizations uniting to reply with > "serious concern." > > Signed on August 18 by the American Jewish Committee, Anti- > Defamation League (ADL), National Council of Synagogues, Orthodox > Union, and Rabbinical Council of America, a letter posted on the ADL > website says the "Note on Ambiguities" "engendered both uncertainty > and considerable disappointment with respect to the position > maintained by the Church and its spokespersons," with "invitations" > to become Christian making Jewish participation in dialogue with the > Church "untenable". > > While Pope John Paul II often spoke of a covenant "never revoked," > the "Note on Ambiguities" seems to annul that position, with a > harder-line stance on conversion being taken by new Pope Benedict XVI. > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090825/c065fc5d/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Tue Aug 25 12:59:46 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:59:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] =?utf-8?q?Emailing=3A_Fayyad_to_the_Times_=C3=A2?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=82=AC=C5=93Palestinian_State_to_be_established_withi?= =?utf-8?q?n_two_years=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D_-_International_Middle_?= =?utf-8?q?East_Media_Center?= Message-ID: <04B571637BE34650AB925F378F05A881@TESTPC> Do you like our new site design? Let us know. Webstream (Test) Breaking News Israeli MP says "illegal" settlements n the Wets Bank to be evacuated by winter 17:58 Tue 25 Aug The Israeli Military kidnaps five civilians during morning invasions in the West Bank 16:50 Tue 25 Aug Three brothers killed, eight wounded in Rafah shelling 10:51 Tue 25 Aug Geophysical Institute of Israel to perform a ?controlled explosion in the Negev? 10:19 Tue 25 Aug Israeli soldiers broke into Telmond Prison for Women 05:01 Tue 25 Aug Israel establishes special courts for Palestinian child detainees 03:20 Tue 25 Aug Lieberman demands military service as precondition for Cadet Courses 02:46 Tue 25 Aug 400 patients in ICU facing death due to ongoing siege 02:11 Tue 25 Aug Palestinian killed, child seriously wounded by military fire in northern Gaza 01:54 Tue 25 Aug New 14 Cases of H1N1 reported in the West Bank 18:25 Mon 24 Aug * Home * About us * Contact us * Donations * Archives * Latest Audio * Search >> * Cartoons * Arabic - ???? * Video Navigation Breaking News Latest News Articles Latest Audio Human Interest Opinion/Analysis Interviews Cartoon Unity in Ramadan Site Topics Miscellaneous Palestinian Politics Lebanon war The Wall Palestinian attacks Refugees/Immigration Holy sites Non-violent action Israeli Politics Diplomacy Prisoners Israeli Settlement Human rights Israeli attacks Peace process International Politics Jerusalem English Audio Report Internal Unrest Italian Audio Report Truce Boycott Divestment Documents * About us * Editorial Guidelines * privacy * disclaimer * get involved Feeds Atom Summaries Link Atom Full Posts Link RSS Summaries Link RSS Full Posts Link Podcast Link iTunes Store Podcast Link user preferences * Language - en | sp Online donation system by ClickandPledge _____ Donations in Euro Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Donations in USD Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! _____ The International Middle East Media Center (IMEMC) is running an emergency fund drive. We need $40,000.00 Online donation system by ClickandPledge Or use the Paypal Donation buttons on the left column _____ Recent Articles about International Palestinian Politics Hamas: ?Obama-Abbas meeting disappointing to the Palestinians? May 30 09 by Saed Bannoura Abbas concludes visit to Canada, heads to Washington May 27 09 by Saed Bannoura Abbas: ?No peace talks without Israeli commitment to statehood and a... May 26 09 by Saed Bannoura Latest News Articles Israeli MP says "illegal" settlements n the Wets Bank to be evacuated by winter 17:58 Tue 25 Aug The Israeli Military kidnaps five civilians during morning invasions in the West Bank 16:50 Tue 25 Aug Three brothers killed, eight wounded in Rafah shelling 10:51 Tue 25 Aug Geophysical Institute of Israel to perform a ?controlled explosion in the Negev? 10:19 Tue 25 Aug Israeli soldiers broke into Telmond Prison for Women 05:01 Tue 25 Aug Israel establishes special courts for Palestinian child detainees 03:20 Tue 25 Aug Lieberman demands military service as precondition for Cadet Courses 02:46 Tue 25 Aug 400 patients in ICU facing death due to ongoing siege 02:11 Tue 25 Aug Palestinian killed, child seriously wounded by military fire in northern Gaza 01:54 Tue 25 Aug New 14 Cases of H1N1 reported in the West Bank 18:25 Mon 24 Aug Full Story Fayyad to the Times: ?Palestinian State to be established within two years? author Tuesday August 25, 2009 11:26 author by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Report this post to the editors Palestinian Prime Minister, Dr. Salaam Fayyad, stated in an interview with the Times in London, that the Palestinian Authority wants to establish a de-facto Palestinian state within two years, regardless of the failing peace talks. Dr. Salaam Fayyad - psnews.ps Dr. Salaam Fayyad - psnews.ps He said that the time has come to change the course of 16 years of failing peace talks, and that the time has come to change the course of the whole process. Dr. Fayyad added that the Palestinian Authority would be working hard to establish positive facts on the ground and to speedup ending the occupation. The Prime Minister said that regardless whether Israel cooperates or not, the Palestinians will work to establish a functioning state with proficient security forces, and issue, he added, would force Israel to reveal its intentions of ending 42-years of occupation. Fayyad would be trying to get donor countries and foreign investors to focus on the West Bank and to help in building security forces trained under direct supervision of the United States and Britain. He also stated that the Palestinian Authority and Israel must be committed to the U.S.-backed roadmap peace plan of 2003. Dr. Fayyad said that Israel must be committed to its own vows by halting all of its settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel is currently planning to build 2500 homes for Jewish settlers in the West Bank under what it described as ?natural growth?. The Palestinian Prime Minister also said that settlements are illegal under the international law. But Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, intends to tell the U.S. Middle East Envoy, George Mitchell, that Israel will not accept a significant settlement freeze. Israeli officials, including deputy Prime Minister, and Interior Minister, stated that settlement outposts slated for evacuation, and other illegal settlement outposts, should not be evacuated, but instead should be legalized. category international | palestinian politics | news report author email saed at imemc dot org printable version with comments << Back To Newswire toolbar powered by Conduit ? 2001-2009 IMEMC NEWS. 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Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2538 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090825/62f5c1f3/attachment-0009.gif From beartrm at yahoo.com Tue Aug 25 13:41:55 2009 From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtEaWFsb2d1ZV0gRW1haWxpbmc6IEZheXlhZCB0byB0aGUgVGltZXMg?= =?utf-8?B?w6LigqzFk1BhbGVzdGluaWFuIFN0YXRlIHRvIGJlIGVzdGFibGlzaGVkIHdp?= =?utf-8?B?dGhpbiB0d28geWVhcnPDouKCrCAtIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgTWlkZGxlIEVh?= =?utf-8?B?c3QgTWVkaWEgQ2VudGVy?= In-Reply-To: <04B571637BE34650AB925F378F05A881@TESTPC> Message-ID: <823553.99462.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I guess he forgot to take this up with HaShem.Susan --- On Tue, 8/25/09, Marvin Hyde wrote: From: Marvin Hyde Subject: [Dialogue] Emailing: Fayyad to the Times ???Palestinian State to be established within two years?? - International Middle East Media Center To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Tuesday, August 25, 2009, 12:59 PM ? Breaking News Israeli MP says "illegal" settlements n the Wets Bank to be evacuated by winter 17:58 Tue 25 Aug The Israeli Military kidnaps five civilians during morning invasions in the West Bank 16:50 Tue 25 Aug Three brothers killed, eight wounded in Rafah shelling 10:51 Tue 25 Aug Geophysical Institute of Israel to perform a ?controlled explosion in the Negev? 10:19 Tue 25 Aug Israeli soldiers broke into Telmond Prison for Women 05:01 Tue 25 Aug Israel establishes special courts for Palestinian child detainees 03:20 Tue 25 Aug Lieberman demands military service as precondition for Cadet Courses 02:46 Tue 25 Aug 400 patients in ICU facing death due to ongoing siege 02:11 Tue 25 Aug Palestinian killed, child seriously wounded by military fire in northern Gaza 01:54 Tue 25 Aug New 14 Cases of H1N1 reported in the West Bank 18:25 Mon 24 Aug Home About us Contact us Donations Archives Latest Audio Cartoons Arabic - ???? Video NavigationBreaking News Latest News Articles Latest Audio Human Interest Opinion/Analysis Interviews Cartoon Site TopicsMiscellaneous Palestinian Politics Lebanon war The Wall Palestinian attacks Refugees/Immigration Holy sites Non-violent action Israeli Politics Diplomacy Prisoners Israeli Settlement Human rights Israeli attacks Peace process International Politics Jerusalem English Audio Report Internal Unrest Italian Audio Report Truce Boycott Divestment Documents About us Editorial Guidelines privacy disclaimer get involved Feeds user preferences Language - en | sp Donations in Euro Donations in USD The International Middle East Media Center (IMEMC) is running an emergency fund drive. We need $40,000.00 Or use the Paypal Donation buttons on the left column Recent Articles about International Palestinian Politics Hamas: ?Obama-Abbas meeting disappointing to the Palestinians? May 30 09 by Saed Bannoura Abbas concludes visit to Canada, heads to Washington May 27 09 by Saed Bannoura Abbas: ?No peace talks without Israeli commitment to statehood and a... May 26 09 by Saed Bannoura Latest News Articles Israeli MP says "illegal" settlements n the Wets Bank to be evacuated by winter 17:58 Tue 25 Aug The Israeli Military kidnaps five civilians during morning invasions in the West Bank 16:50 Tue 25 Aug Three brothers killed, eight wounded in Rafah shelling 10:51 Tue 25 Aug Geophysical Institute of Israel to perform a ?controlled explosion in the Negev? 10:19 Tue 25 Aug Israeli soldiers broke into Telmond Prison for Women 05:01 Tue 25 Aug Israel establishes special courts for Palestinian child detainees 03:20 Tue 25 Aug Lieberman demands military service as precondition for Cadet Courses 02:46 Tue 25 Aug 400 patients in ICU facing death due to ongoing siege 02:11 Tue 25 Aug Palestinian killed, child seriously wounded by military fire in northern Gaza 01:54 Tue 25 Aug New 14 Cases of H1N1 reported in the West Bank 18:25 Mon 24 AugFull Story Fayyad to the Times: ?Palestinian State to be established within two years? Tuesday August 25, 2009 11:26 by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies Palestinian Prime Minister, Dr. Salaam Fayyad, stated in an interview with the Times in London, that the Palestinian Authority wants to establish a de-facto Palestinian state within two years, regardless of the failing peace talks. Dr. Salaam Fayyad - psnews.ps He said that the time has come to change the course of 16 years of failing peace talks, and that the time has come to change the course of the whole process.? Dr. Fayyad added that the Palestinian Authority would be working hard to establish positive facts on the ground and to speedup ending the occupation. The Prime Minister said that regardless whether Israel cooperates or not, the Palestinians will work to establish a functioning state with proficient security forces, and issue, he added, would force Israel to reveal its intentions of ending 42-years of occupation. Fayyad would be trying to get donor countries and foreign investors to focus on the West Bank and to help in building security forces trained under direct supervision of the United States and Britain.? He also stated that the Palestinian Authority and Israel must be committed to the U.S.-backed roadmap peace plan of 2003. Dr. Fayyad said that Israel must be committed to its own vows by halting all of its settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territories. ?Israel is currently planning to build 2500 homes for Jewish settlers in the West Bank under what it described as ?natural growth?.? The Palestinian Prime Minister also said that settlements are illegal under the international law.? ?But Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, intends to tell the U.S. Middle East Envoy, George Mitchell, that Israel will not accept a significant settlement freeze. Israeli officials, including deputy Prime Minister, and Interior Minister, stated that settlement outposts slated for evacuation, and other illegal settlement outposts, should not be evacuated, but instead should be legalized. international | palestinian politics | news report saed at imemc dot org printable version with comments << Back To Newswire toolbar powered by Conduit ? 2001-2009 IMEMC NEWS. Unless otherwise stated by the author, all content is free for non-commercial reuse, reprint, and rebroadcast, on the net and elsewhere. Opinions are those of the contributors and are not necessarily endorsed by IMEMC NEWS. Disclaimer | Privacy | IMEMC Website is powered by Caterized.net Web analytics ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090825/c40c2c55/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Wed Aug 26 07:03:11 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 08:03:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again References: Message-ID: <0FFAC823-ADAE-47F9-904F-DA5FE6FC5364@earthlink.net> I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm EST/ 10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the faith of Judaism. You can listen live or download the program later: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle Paul. Best, James You have my permission to circulate this freely... > > TaborBlog > > "All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity > You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > > Converting the Jews--Again > A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in > Covenant and Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic > Bishops (USCCB) is rightly causing lots of stir and controversy > among Jewish leaders. Despite what had come to be seen as progress > based on the 1965 Second Vatican Council declaration, Nostra Aetate, > with its assertion that the Jewish people collectively are not to be > blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a general understanding > that interfaith dialogue should not have as its purpose the > conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes clear > that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that > Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: > "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes > to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become > man." According to the document, "we also believe that the > fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to > Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." > > Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League > (ADL) has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the > ADL Web site: > > ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light > Missionizing Of Jews > > The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: > > Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue > > A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): > > US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews > > Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel > being one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make > clear that such language does not in any way preclude > "supersessionism,"that is, the notion that this "Old Covenant" has > in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain valuable as "historic > witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, but there is > nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past or > present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, > as enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the > historic Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains > central to the Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical > dialogue and exchange among Rabbis and Bishops.... > > Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ > > > To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090826/7b3cf01c/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 14:15:21 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again Message-ID: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone that the true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? Did Paul ever say that a Jew following that faith had to "convert" to anything? Or that accepting the promised Messiah would be a?"conversion" to a new religion? ?We do not have the luxury of asking Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to figure it out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT and his writings seem to contradict his actions. So either Paul was a consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. Is he starting a "new" religion or is he explaining how the long awaited Messiah fits into the true faith? Could Paul have a sod level of understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures and how the Messiah would be the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is pointing us to Messiah and Hashems plan? '?We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a pashat level of scripture and because of that we get all screwed up and that required changing translations, putting words in quotations and creating a big mess! ? If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben David effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? The Hebrew Scriptures teach that Hashem never desired sacrifices only prayer and repentance. Why is Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system that Hashem ordained? How will Hashem transition us into a non sacrificial system for sin? When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept him will they be considered to be "converting" or merely accepting the awaited promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all things? ? Susie --- On Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the faith of Judaism.? You can listen live or download the program later: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle Paul. Best, James You have my permission to circulate this freely... TaborBlog "All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Converting the Jews--Again A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Covenant and Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is rightly causing lots of stir and controversy among Jewish leaders. Despite what had come to be seen as progress based on the 1965 Second Vatican Council declaration, Nostra Aetate, with its assertion that the Jewish people collectively are not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a general understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man."? According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League (ADL) has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the ADL Web site: ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light Missionizing Of Jews The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel being one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make clear that such language does not in any way preclude "supersessionism,"that is, the notion that this "Old Covenant" has in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain valuable as "historic witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, but there is nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past or present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, as enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the historic Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains central to the Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical dialogue and exchange among Rabbis and Bishops.... Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090826/3b32d524/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 16:21:50 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:21:50 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again In-Reply-To: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370908261421q381f48fdr7e68fe54c69a7853@mail.gmail.com> WHO in Judaism is "...scurrying to reinstate that system that HaShem ordained?" I can't wait to meet these guys.... *Hanoch "You never expect the Spanish Inquisition"* * *Monty Python On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 12:15 PM, susie getskow wrote: > For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone that > the true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? Did Paul ever say that a > Jew following that faith had to "convert" to anything? Or that accepting the > promised Messiah would be a "conversion" to a new religion? We do not have > the luxury of asking Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to > figure it out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT > and his writings seem to contradict his actions. So either Paul was a > consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. Is he starting a "new" > religion or is he explaining how the long awaited Messiah fits into the true > faith? Could Paul have a sod level of understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures > and how the Messiah would be the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is > pointing us to Messiah and Hashems plan? > ' We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a pashat level > of scripture and because of that we get all screwed up and that required > changing translations, putting words in quotations and creating a big mess! > > If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben David > effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? The Hebrew Scriptures teach > that Hashem never desired sacrifices only prayer and repentance. Why is > Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system that Hashem ordained? How will > Hashem transition us into a non sacrificial system for sin? > When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept him will > they be considered to be "converting" or merely accepting the awaited > promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all things? > > Susie > > > --- On *Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor * wrote: > > > From: James Tabor > Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM > > I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm > EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman > Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the > faith of Judaism. > > You can listen live or download the program later: > > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ > > My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some > of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle > Paul. > > Best, > > James > > You have my permission to circulate this freely... > > > > TaborBlog > > *"All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity > * > > You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > Converting the Jews--Again > A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Covenant and > Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is > rightly causing lots of stir and controversy among Jewish leaders. Despite > what had come to be seen as progress based on the 1965 Second Vatican > Council declaration, *Nostra Aetate*, with its assertion that the Jewish > people collectively are not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a > general understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its > purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes > clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that > Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: > > "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its > unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man." > According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the > covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus > Christ." > Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League (ADL) > has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the ADL Web site: > ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light > Missionizing Of Jews > The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: > Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue > A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): > US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews > Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel being > one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make clear that such > language does not in any way preclude "supersessionism,"that is, the notion > that this "Old Covenant" has in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain > valuable as "historic witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, > but there is nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past > or present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, as > enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the historic > Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains central to the > Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical dialogue and exchange > among Rabbis and Bishops.... > Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ > > To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090826/021f7b4e/attachment.html From gets52000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 17:41:06 2009 From: gets52000 at yahoo.com (susie getskow) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 15:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again In-Reply-To: <855590370908261421q381f48fdr7e68fe54c69a7853@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <991428.82066.qm@web112408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hey Hanoch, Since it's inception in 1987, the Temple Institue has created over sixty sacred vessels along with research on the topography of the Temple Mount and working blueprints of the Third Temple. As of the 9th of Av, construction of the altar has begun. I consider this a rapid progression over 20 years but I will change the word scurrying to preparing. Susie --- On Wed, 8/26/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 2:21 PM WHO in Judaism is "...scurrying to reinstate that system that HaShem ordained?"? I can't wait to meet these guys.... ? ??????????????? Hanoch "You never expect the Spanish Inquisition" ?????????????????????? Monty Python On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 12:15 PM, susie getskow wrote: For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone that the true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? Did Paul ever say that a Jew following that faith had to "convert" to anything? Or that accepting the promised Messiah would be a?"conversion" to a new religion? ?We do not have the luxury of asking Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to figure it out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT and his writings seem to contradict his actions. So either Paul was a consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. Is he starting a "new" religion or is he explaining how the long awaited Messiah fits into the true faith? Could Paul have a sod level of understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures and how the Messiah would be the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is pointing us to Messiah and Hashems plan? '?We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a pashat level of scripture and because of that we get all screwed up and that required changing translations, putting words in quotations and creating a big mess! ? If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben David effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? The Hebrew Scriptures teach that Hashem never desired sacrifices only prayer and repentance. Why is Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system that Hashem ordained? How will Hashem transition us into a non sacrificial system for sin? When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept him will they be considered to be "converting" or merely accepting the awaited promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all things? ? Susie --- On Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the faith of Judaism.? You can listen live or download the program later: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle Paul. Best, James You have my permission to circulate this freely... TaborBlog "All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Converting the Jews--Again A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Covenant and Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is rightly causing lots of stir and controversy among Jewish leaders. Despite what had come to be seen as progress based on the 1965 Second Vatican Council declaration, Nostra Aetate, with its assertion that the Jewish people collectively are not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a general understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man."? According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League (ADL) has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the ADL Web site: ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light Missionizing Of Jews The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel being one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make clear that such language does not in any way preclude "supersessionism,"that is, the notion that this "Old Covenant" has in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain valuable as "historic witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, but there is nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past or present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, as enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the historic Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains central to the Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical dialogue and exchange among Rabbis and Bishops.... Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090826/263d59cc/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 27 05:59:57 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:59:57 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again In-Reply-To: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <108BC248-7CAF-4767-A685-5FE3A3E71CEC@earthlink.net> Thanks Susie. Just quickly here. I don't think Paul thought he was starting a new religion, as he carefully seeks to trace things back to Abraham in Gal 3 and Rom 4, but if those who do not believe in Christ are branches broken off the "tree" of Israel, thus cut off from God and their covenant, then Jews/Judaism, and the "seed" of Abraham for that matter, is now redefined. That was essentially the point of the Blog post, though there were other elements it covered. James On Aug 26, 2009, at 3:15 PM, susie getskow wrote: > For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone > that the true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? Did Paul > ever say that a Jew following that faith had to "convert" to > anything? Or that accepting the promised Messiah would be a > "conversion" to a new religion? We do not have the luxury of asking > Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to figure it > out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT and > his writings seem to contradict his actions. So either Paul was a > consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. Is he starting > a "new" religion or is he explaining how the long awaited Messiah > fits into the true faith? Could Paul have a sod level of > understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures and how the Messiah would be > the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is pointing us to > Messiah and Hashems plan? > ' We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a > pashat level of scripture and because of that we get all screwed up > and that required changing translations, putting words in quotations > and creating a big mess! > > If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben > David effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? The Hebrew > Scriptures teach that Hashem never desired sacrifices only prayer > and repentance. Why is Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system > that Hashem ordained? How will Hashem transition us into a non > sacrificial system for sin? > When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept > him will they be considered to be "converting" or merely accepting > the awaited promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all > things? > > Susie > > > --- On Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM > > I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm > EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the > Roman Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish > people and the faith of Judaism. > > You can listen live or download the program later: > > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ > > My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as > some of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of > the apostle Paul. > > Best, > > James > > You have my permission to circulate this freely... > > >> >> TaborBlog >> >> "All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity >> You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net >> >> Converting the Jews--Again >> A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in >> Covenant and Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic >> Bishops (USCCB) is rightly causing lots of stir and controversy >> among Jewish leaders. Despite what had come to be seen as progress >> based on the 1965 Second Vatican Council declaration, Nostra >> Aetate, with its assertion that the Jewish people collectively are >> not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a general >> understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its >> purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the >> USCCB makes clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its >> historic position that Christianity has superseded and thus >> effectively replaced Judaism: >> "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel >> comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God >> become man." According to the document, "we also believe that the >> fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to >> Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." >> >> Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League >> (ADL) has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on >> the ADL Web site: >> ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light >> Missionizing Of Jews >> The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: >> Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue >> A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): >> US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews >> Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel >> being one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make >> clear that such language does not in any way preclude >> "supersessionism,"that is, the notion that this "Old Covenant" has >> in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain valuable as "historic >> witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, but there is >> nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past or >> present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting >> Christ, as enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, >> the historic Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" >> remains central to the Christian mission, despite any progress in >> ecumenical dialogue and exchange among Rabbis and Bishops.... >> Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ >> >> To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. >> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/019a8b50/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 06:36:48 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:36:48 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? Message-ID: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/a1ca27f6/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 27 07:31:47 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:31:47 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0@earthlink.net> I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/1bdca223/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 27 07:44:58 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <441993.18819.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hey Hanoch, ? I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... ? Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, ? ???? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,'?or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ???? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/cc3c7d26/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Thu Aug 27 07:49:46 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:49:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <441993.18819.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <441993.18819.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B911AF2-1E55-432E-9687-30E5D2D5E1F6@earthlink.net> Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... > they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in > south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/371fec7e/attachment.html From yhwhisel at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:01:52 2009 From: yhwhisel at gmail.com (Batyah) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:01:52 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254@BatYah> Hi Hanoch, We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. Shalom, BatYah Spiker ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/c981cf53/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:36:26 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:36:26 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <441993.18819.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> <441993.18819.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <855590370908270636t20a70342s2bf8403f5f3b425b@mail.gmail.com> Hey Glenn - LOL I really needed THAT one, toda! :-) In the annals of history, I think it will be noted that it has occurred in *St.Francisville*....which should give the Church more indigestion! Take care pal, see ya in the Holy Land... * Hanoch* On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton < chattertonw at bellsouth.net> wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet > each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young * wrote: > > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/e16215d0/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:39:18 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:39:18 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0@earthlink.net> References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <855590370908270639v40005710vef14be6f69ff63e9@mail.gmail.com> Thanks James....yeah, Acts 4:12 doesn't seem to come up too often in discussions..... It's like what I told you about the UIWU being the only non-missionary organization I could think of..... See you in Israel! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:31 AM, James Tabor wrote: > I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute > them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from > Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation > and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast > yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by > definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who > reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of > personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. > Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be > saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. > > Best, > > James > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/82f51277/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:41:29 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:41:29 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254@BatYah> References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254@BatYah> Message-ID: <855590370908270641l53379761n9751a9dce02a2ccf@mail.gmail.com> Hey BatYah, Thanks for your note, yes, we are few, but growing! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Batyah wrote: > Hi Hanoch, > > We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. > > Shalom, > BatYah Spiker > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Hanoch Young > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/3ece5135/attachment.html From mhyde7 at tds.net Thu Aug 27 08:49:11 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:49:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0@earthlink.net> References: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258@mail.gmail.com> <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7A60977BF27D4666A6589AF3D646FFCC@TESTPC> I agree Hanoch there are those who secretly believe that the Jews are cut off and must accept Jesus or be doom. There are others who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but in no, way believe that Jews have to accept him like Christians. Others are of the position that something happened in the first century that changed the world for good, but the question of accepting Jesus is a moot point at this time in history. When Moshiach shows up he will be who he is, then is the time to accept him, now it is impossible to guess who the right person might be. So we keep waiting. The playing field is filled with many different positions. Everyone should be open and honest in their dialogue, with Jews. Based on where they are in their understanding. Tovia singer joked with a Rabbi he was interviewing last night about getting Mike Huckabee on the fast track to conversation. The point as I took it was that ACTIONS speak much louder then words. Only Hashem, knows our hearts but our actions SCREAM to the world how we feel about Jews, or Israelites. Now to James point, I think your painting with a pretty broad brush, but I understand that, due to the many different understandings of paul and the Christian beginnings and development. "those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T." I personally think that regardless of how much dialogue Jews and christians do with each community, both community's will have to deal with each other and each others text until the truth, like cream off milk raises to the top. But with that being said, we should be open and honest with were we stand on the more difficult and decisive issue. As we learn we grow and mature, if we don't then were not learning. As mention, the groups in LA. SC, NC, like other groups have grown in their understanding and therefore can dialogue with the Jews on a different level, but even those groups have not come to a point in their understanding that they should convert and become a Jew. Without anyone responding to that last sentence, I understand.. I have my reasons for not converting also, however, our heart is toward the God of the land and the people. Some people in / on this journey have simply refused to deal with the N.T. and have cut if off from there biblical text. Maybe, some of these are the ones who are Noahides, simply undoing 2000 years of history. But, that is o.k. we all understand things differently. The question was asked, If you stood on the ground in the years between 30 and 90 c.e. and took bets on which of the sects and different religions would survive into the future, where would you place your money? Pharaseeism, saduceeism, Eboniteism, Nazerenism, esseneism , maybe the groups out at the dead sea, this sect of the way, the one's they called Christians?. How about Mithraism, yea maybe we can hit the lotto with that one. My point, history is history, all we can do is try to understand it. Now, one point or question I would like a response to is this. In Paul's discourse in Romams about the branches being cut, how can we understand what he meant by cut off. If you talk to a person who prunes vineyards, they would tell you that pruning is good for the root plant and that each branch cut off can be stuck right in to the earth and start a new plant. If you talk to Christians, the cutting off of branches means, ACEEPT jesus or burn in hell.(to your point yesterday James, Christianity(the church) has not changed a bit) Paul, tells his follows to not go that far. My question. In normative Judaism of the first century, what happened to Jews who did not serve God? Good people, kind to there neighbors, good to their fellowman, just to busy to go to the temple, keep all of the commandments, do all the feast and so forth. We know they were there! how did the rabbi's deal with them? Did the Rabbi's pound the pulpit and scream, "accept the torah and Moses or you will BURN in hell fire,... forever and ever.? Anyone like to respond? Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/dd855b1c/attachment.html From beartrm at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 19:11:11 2009 From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <3B911AF2-1E55-432E-9687-30E5D2D5E1F6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <158028.55518.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It seems to me the group in S.C. did impose they're agenda on this dialogue list. ?They killed a fellowship of people that were not all like minded but still supported each other. ?They never even participated on the posts until they felt like things weren't going they way they thought they should. (strictly bible study) ?I love sharing the Torah with all who want to participate, but how much more precious it becomes when you have a personal connection with those you are sharing it with.I will always be grateful to Ross for his heartfelt idea of a dialogue. ?Keep up your wonderful Shabbat services. ?May HaShem reveal His Torah truth to us all. Shalom, ?Susan --- On Thu, 8/27/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:49 AM Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: Hey Hanoch, ? I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... ? Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, ? ???? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,'?or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ???? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/f9d2cd91/attachment.html From beartrm at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 19:19:17 2009 From: beartrm at yahoo.com (susan strickland) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? Message-ID: <653488.65846.qm@web33305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 8/27/09, susan strickland wrote: From: susan strickland Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:11 PM It seems to me the group in S.C. did impose they're agenda on this dialogue list. ?They killed a fellowship of people that were not all like minded but still supported each other. ?They never even participated on the posts until they felt like things weren't going they way they thought they should. (strictly bible study) ?I love sharing the Torah with all who want to participate, but how much more precious it becomes when you have a personal connection with those you are sharing it with.I will always be grateful to Ross for his heartfelt idea of a dialogue. ?Keep up your wonderful Shabbat services. ?May HaShem reveal His Torah truth to us all. Shalom, ?Susan --- On Thu, 8/27/09, James Tabor wrote: From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:49 AM Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: Hey Hanoch, ? I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... ? Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, ? ???? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,'?or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ???? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ start: 0000-00-00 end: 0000-00-00 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/76ca7218/attachment.html From rossknichols at me.com Thu Aug 27 19:27:56 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:27:56 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? In-Reply-To: <158028.55518.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <158028.55518.qm@web33304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99DD8813-5D24-4F73-BCBE-459094096F92@me.com> Susan, Your response is off topic for one and serves no purpose other than to cause unnecessary arguments. If you truly love sharing the Torah with others, then please do so. Thanks and shalom Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:11 PM, susan strickland wrote: > It seems to me the group in S.C. did impose they're agenda on this > dialogue list. They killed a fellowship of people that were not all > like minded but still supported each other. They never even > participated on the posts until they felt like things weren't going > they way they thought they should. (strictly bible study) I love > sharing the Torah with all who want to participate, but how much > more precious it becomes when you have a personal connection with > those you are sharing it with. > I will always be grateful to Ross for his heartfelt idea of a > dialogue. Keep up your wonderful Shabbat services. May HaShem > reveal His Torah truth to us all. > > Shalom, Susan > > > > --- On Thu, 8/27/09, James Tabor wrote: > > From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 7:49 AM > > Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group > in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I > understand... > > James > > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > >> Hey Hanoch, >> >> I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... >> they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in >> south Louisiana... >> >> Glenn >> >> --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: >> >> From: Hanoch Young >> Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? >> To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >> Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM >> >> Hey James, >> >> To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, >> Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing >> to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, >> without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a >> personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people >> TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you >> to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. >> >> Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? >> >> Hanoch >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > start: 0000-00-00 end: 0000-00-00 > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090827/a317cf4b/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 06:45:35 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 07:45:35 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The Psalms Message-ID: <1AA2FA42-1299-4695-BF2F-A515D9D51E73@earthlink.net> The Psalms are the "heatbeat" of Yehovah. I was reading this morning in the range of Psalm 96-101. As soon as you can take time today, and are in range of a copy of the Hebrew Bible, pick it up and dip into the Psalms. You will find something there. I am sure of it, one and all... Shabbat Shalom, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/213fff7a/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 07:45:44 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:45:44 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay Message-ID: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> This is the commentary on the Parsha (Weekly Torah portion) from Rav Nachman Kahana (he spells his last name differently then his brother did). His 900+ page commentary in English, on the Torah is being printed, as I write this. Judah at its finest..... Shabbat Shalom, * Hanoch* BS"D Parashat Ki Taytzay 5769 The parasha begins (Devarim 21:10) * ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????: * * When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives * The Torah is referring to a "wining war" where the army of Israel totally defeats its enemy, captures its peoples , cities and towns. The victory is so decisive that the soldiers have time for "romantic" (halachically authorized) interludes between the killings. But , we find in the Torah a reference to another kind of war. A war where the situation for the army of Israel is ominous and threatening. The enemy is about to defeat us, with all its dire implications. The Torah states (Bamidbar 10:9) * ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???????: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. * The war referred to here is fought and fraught with potential disaster - the enemy is "oppressing you." Two wars. Neither one a stalemate and deadlock, but one of complete victory while the other is menacingly our very existence. What causes the huge difference in the outcome of the between these conflicts? One could flippantly voice a standard answer that when we abide by the Torah our army is victorious, but we lose wars when we are lax in abiding with the Torah laws. I say "flippant" because that answer is too superficial for such a serious question. The are numerous examples in the TaNaCh and in post TaNaCh Jewish history of military victories when the Jewish people were far from what is required from a Torah nation. So the answer must lie elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is actually in the very wording of the two verses. In the verse of the victorious army of Israel it states: * When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives * In the verse of adversity it says: * When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. * "When you *go to war* against your enemies" taking the war into their lands, than "the LORD your God delivers them into your hands;" however, "*When you go into battle in your own land" *permitting the enemy to bring the war onto your soil* *then you find yourself "*against an enemy who is oppressing you". * In here lies the critical agenda for the Jewish people. Do what is necessary for the welfare of the Jewish nation. Fear not man, but only do what is favorable in the eyes of HaShem. Avraham went to war with 318 men in order to save his nephew Lot. Yehonatan, son of King Shaul, attacked the entire Philistine army with only the help of his shield bearer. David smote the giant Goliat with a stone in his slingshot and HaShem in his heart. The Maccabees drove out the Greeks from Eretz Yisrael with a small army of untrained soldiers. Tzahal defeated seven standing armies in 1948. We fought the Egyptians and Syrians with their Russian advisors in 1967 and again in 1973. Ten planes of the Israeli air force flew over 1000 kilometers to destroy the nuclear reactor of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We flew over 3000 kilometers to rescue the Jews at Entebbe, Uganda. HaShem has promised to bless the initiatives that we for His sake and for the sake of His chosen people. The initiatives might be out of desperation, and perhaps even irrational, as in the above mentioned examples in our history, but nevertheless they were blessed with success. Kabala teaches that along the immeasurable road from "aiyn sof" (infinite) entity of pure, total and absolute spirituality of HaShem four vastly different worlds were necessary to produce our material and finite world. The four wolds are called *atzilut* (emanation), *beri?a* (creation), * yetzira* (formation) and our world called *asiya* (accomplishment). Angel don?t do things - they are in a world of thought and contemplation. It is only human beings who are given the task to be a partner of HaShem in the final completion of His worlds. We must perform acts of mitzvot according to the Torah which include the physical perfection of this world. We study Torah in order to direct our activities and actions. The Jewish people were placed in this world not to sit back and enjoy the scenery, rather we are the scenery. It is not our function to passively let the enemy attack us; it is we who must make pre-emptive attacks against our physical and spiritual enemies. It is a passive sin to stay in the galut one moment longer than HaShem has commanded in wait for the Mashiach to take you to Eretz Yisrael on a flying carpet. Our parasha closes with the episode of the first concerted attack by the arch-evil Amalek against the Jewish people in the desert. According to chazal, the attack not intended to destroy the Jewish people, because Amalek knew our strength, but was to initiate a devious long range psychological war by the descendants of Eisav against the descendents of Ya?akov. On the verses (Devarim 25:17-18) * ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God * Rashi quotes the midrash that explains the word *korcha* as referring to coldness or ice. * ??? ??? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??????? ???????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????. * In the sense that Amalek by attacking the Jewish people after the great miracles HaShem performed for, "cooled" off the nations? fear of the Jews by demonstrating that one need not be afraid of waging war on the Jews. But I understand the intent of Amaleks?s "cooling off" in an additional way. It was their attempt to diminish and even eradicate the great enthusiasm, excitement, ardor, ecstasy, and zealousness which the Jewish nation felt when being chosen by the Creator above all other nations. As stated above, the beginning of the parasha encourages and invigorates our people to initiate great acts in the service of HaShem, but the parasha ends by bringing the episode of Amalek whose life?s work is to extinguish the enthusiasm of Torah that burns in the heart of every authentic Jew. Today, we are again the victims of Amalek who wish to impede the advance of our people towards the time of the final redemption. When Tzahal liberated the entire part of Eretz Yisrael on the western side of the Jordan River, the UN imposed itself immediately in an attepmt to draw us back to the borders of June 4, 1967. No annexation. No permanent settlements. No international recognition of who began the war. No recognition that there never was a Palestine or Palestinian nation, Just go back to the lines of 1967, but better yet, just leave the holy land and go back to from when you came. This was the opening volley of Amalek in their never ending quest to destroy the people of Israel. But we succeeded in containing their effort and baruch HaShem there are today close to 400 thousands Jews in Shomron, Yehuda and the Golan. But now the relentless Amalek is shamelessly demonstrating its commitment to paralyze the efforts of our nation in our return home. The President of the United States and his administration are trying to "cool off" the great forward thrust of our people. No building. No new roads. Just prepare to evacuate to the borders which Abba Eban called the "Borders of Auschwitz". Israel will not commit suicide. If need be we will attack Iran in the spirit of this week?s parasha. We shall continue to build and settle the land and recall our God-given birthright. And all the while "remember what Amalek did to us." Shabbat Shalom Nachman Kahana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/7c9fe999/attachment.html From kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 08:15:17 2009 From: kimalvarado3265 at gmail.com (kim alvarado) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:15:17 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again In-Reply-To: <108BC248-7CAF-4767-A685-5FE3A3E71CEC@earthlink.net> References: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <108BC248-7CAF-4767-A685-5FE3A3E71CEC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1c8dbb6e0908280615g6fc01f8cj23ddad9e393cd2c@mail.gmail.com> James and all, I am looking forward to your new book the Paul Dynasty as it will probably answer many of my questions. One that I have, if you don't mind answering now, is did Paul really write all the letters ascribed to him? Was he really "trying to be all things to all men" or were some of the letters written by his gentile followers in his name. One example that comes to mind is in Hebrews 7:3 speaking of Melkizedek not having a genealogy. Wouldn't any learned Jew of the time have known that Melkizedek was Shem? On the subject of the Catholic church, I do not like their statements and they are a huge step backwards, but that is not as bad as Messianics pretending to believe something that they don't with the goal of infiltrating and converting Jews. At least with the Catholics you know what to expect. Thanks, Kim On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:59 AM, James Tabor wrote: > Thanks Susie. > Just quickly here. I don't think Paul thought he was starting a new > religion, as he carefully seeks to trace things back to Abraham in Gal 3 and > Rom 4, but if those who do not believe in Christ are branches broken off the > "tree" of Israel, thus cut off from God and their covenant, then > Jews/Judaism, and the "seed" of Abraham for that matter, is now redefined. > That was essentially the point of the Blog post, though there were other > elements it covered. > > James > > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 3:15 PM, susie getskow wrote: > > For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone that the > true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? Did Paul ever say that a Jew > following that faith had to "convert" to anything? Or that accepting the > promised Messiah would be a "conversion" to a new religion? We do not have > the luxury of asking Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to > figure it out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT > and his writings seem to contradict his actions. So either Paul was a > consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. Is he starting a "new" > religion or is he explaining how the long awaited Messiah fits into the true > faith? Could Paul have a sod level of understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures > and how the Messiah would be the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is > pointing us to Messiah and Hashems plan? > ' We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a pashat level > of scripture and because of that we get all screwed up and that required > changing translations, putting words in quotations and creating a big mess! > > If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben David > effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? The Hebrew Scriptures teach > that Hashem never desired sacrifices only prayer and repentance. Why is > Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system that Hashem ordained? How will > Hashem transition us into a non sacrificial system for sin? > When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept him will > they be considered to be "converting" or merely accepting the awaited > promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all things? > > Susie > > > --- On *Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor * wrote: > > > From: James Tabor > Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM > > I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm > EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman > Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the > faith of Judaism. > > You can listen live or download the program later: > > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ > > My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some > of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle > Paul. > > Best, > > James > > You have my permission to circulate this freely... > > > > TaborBlog > > *"All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity > * > > You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net > Converting the Jews--Again > A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Covenant and > Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is > rightly causing lots of stir and controversy among Jewish leaders. Despite > what had come to be seen as progress based on the 1965 Second Vatican > Council declaration, *Nostra Aetate*, with its assertion that the Jewish > people collectively are not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a > general understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its > purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes > clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that > Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: > > "The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its > unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man." > According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the > covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus > Christ." > Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League (ADL) > has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the ADL Web site: > ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light > Missionizing Of Jews > The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: > Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue > A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): > US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews > Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel being > one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make clear that such > language does not in any way preclude "supersessionism,"that is, the notion > that this "Old Covenant" has in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain > valuable as "historic witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, > but there is nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past > or present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, as > enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the historic > Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains central to the > Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical dialogue and exchange > among Rabbis and Bishops.... > Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ > > To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/7d902ee8/attachment.html From bkgivin at verizon.net Fri Aug 28 08:36:52 2009 From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:36:52 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay In-Reply-To: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54CBA2B9F689419084A75E3E0E6088B6@bettylaptop> Thank you, Hanoch! So much food for thought here?Judah at its finest, yes! I will have more study time tomorrow, but found this article to be so succinct and to the point. BTW, I have lost track of your count as I have been on a work marathon for weeks now?but I have a feeling it is soon. My heart and thoughts are so much with you! I will have to give you my friends address?they too live in the town of the Maccabees! Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Hanoch Young Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:46 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay This is the commentary on the Parsha (Weekly Torah portion) from Rav Nachman Kahana (he spells his last name differently then his brother did). His 900+ page commentary in English, on the Torah is being printed, as I write this. Judah at its finest..... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch BS"D Parashat Ki Taytzay 5769 The parasha begins (Devarim 21:10) ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????: When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives The Torah is referring to a "wining war" where the army of Israel totally defeats its enemy, captures its peoples , cities and towns. The victory is so decisive that the soldiers have time for "romantic" (halachically authorized) interludes between the killings. But , we find in the Torah a reference to another kind of war. A war where the situation for the army of Israel is ominous and threatening. The enemy is about to defeat us, with all its dire implications. The Torah states (Bamidbar 10:9) ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???????: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. The war referred to here is fought and fraught with potential disaster - the enemy is "oppressing you." Two wars. Neither one a stalemate and deadlock, but one of complete victory while the other is menacingly our very existence. What causes the huge difference in the outcome of the between these conflicts? One could flippantly voice a standard answer that when we abide by the Torah our army is victorious, but we lose wars when we are lax in abiding with the Torah laws. I say "flippant" because that answer is too superficial for such a serious question. The are numerous examples in the TaNaCh and in post TaNaCh Jewish history of military victories when the Jewish people were far from what is required from a Torah nation. So the answer must lie elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is actually in the very wording of the two verses. In the verse of the victorious army of Israel it states: When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives In the verse of adversity it says: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. "When you go to war against your enemies" taking the war into their lands, than "the LORD your God delivers them into your hands;" however, "When you go into battle in your own land" permitting the enemy to bring the war onto your soil then you find yourself "against an enemy who is oppressing you". In here lies the critical agenda for the Jewish people. Do what is necessary for the welfare of the Jewish nation. Fear not man, but only do what is favorable in the eyes of HaShem. Avraham went to war with 318 men in order to save his nephew Lot. Yehonatan, son of King Shaul, attacked the entire Philistine army with only the help of his shield bearer. David smote the giant Goliat with a stone in his slingshot and HaShem in his heart. The Maccabees drove out the Greeks from Eretz Yisrael with a small army of untrained soldiers. Tzahal defeated seven standing armies in 1948. We fought the Egyptians and Syrians with their Russian advisors in 1967 and again in 1973. Ten planes of the Israeli air force flew over 1000 kilometers to destroy the nuclear reactor of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We flew over 3000 kilometers to rescue the Jews at Entebbe, Uganda. HaShem has promised to bless the initiatives that we for His sake and for the sake of His chosen people. The initiatives might be out of desperation, and perhaps even irrational, as in the above mentioned examples in our history, but nevertheless they were blessed with success. Kabala teaches that along the immeasurable road from "aiyn sof" (infinite) entity of pure, total and absolute spirituality of HaShem four vastly different worlds were necessary to produce our material and finite world. The four wolds are called atzilut (emanation), beri?a (creation), yetzira (formation) and our world called asiya (accomplishment). Angel don?t do things - they are in a world of thought and contemplation. It is only human beings who are given the task to be a partner of HaShem in the final completion of His worlds. We must perform acts of mitzvot according to the Torah which include the physical perfection of this world. We study Torah in order to direct our activities and actions. The Jewish people were placed in this world not to sit back and enjoy the scenery, rather we are the scenery. It is not our function to passively let the enemy attack us; it is we who must make pre-emptive attacks against our physical and spiritual enemies. It is a passive sin to stay in the galut one moment longer than HaShem has commanded in wait for the Mashiach to take you to Eretz Yisrael on a flying carpet. Our parasha closes with the episode of the first concerted attack by the arch-evil Amalek against the Jewish people in the desert. According to chazal, the attack not intended to destroy the Jewish people, because Amalek knew our strength, but was to initiate a devious long range psychological war by the descendants of Eisav against the descendents of Ya?akov. On the verses (Devarim 25:17-18) ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God Rashi quotes the midrash that explains the word korcha as referring to coldness or ice. ??? ??? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??????? ???????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????. In the sense that Amalek by attacking the Jewish people after the great miracles HaShem performed for, "cooled" off the nations? fear of the Jews by demonstrating that one need not be afraid of waging war on the Jews. But I understand the intent of Amaleks?s "cooling off" in an additional way. It was their attempt to diminish and even eradicate the great enthusiasm, excitement, ardor, ecstasy, and zealousness which the Jewish nation felt when being chosen by the Creator above all other nations. As stated above, the beginning of the parasha encourages and invigorates our people to initiate great acts in the service of HaShem, but the parasha ends by bringing the episode of Amalek whose life?s work is to extinguish the enthusiasm of Torah that burns in the heart of every authentic Jew. Today, we are again the victims of Amalek who wish to impede the advance of our people towards the time of the final redemption. When Tzahal liberated the entire part of Eretz Yisrael on the western side of the Jordan River, the UN imposed itself immediately in an attepmt to draw us back to the borders of June 4, 1967. No annexation. No permanent settlements. No international recognition of who began the war. No recognition that there never was a Palestine or Palestinian nation, Just go back to the lines of 1967, but better yet, just leave the holy land and go back to from when you came. This was the opening volley of Amalek in their never ending quest to destroy the people of Israel. But we succeeded in containing their effort and baruch HaShem there are today close to 400 thousands Jews in Shomron, Yehuda and the Golan. But now the relentless Amalek is shamelessly demonstrating its commitment to paralyze the efforts of our nation in our return home. The President of the United States and his administration are trying to "cool off" the great forward thrust of our people. No building. No new roads. Just prepare to evacuate to the borders which Abba Eban called the "Borders of Auschwitz". Israel will not commit suicide. If need be we will attack Iran in the spirit of this week?s parasha. We shall continue to build and settle the land and recall our God-given birthright. And all the while "remember what Amalek did to us." Shabbat Shalom Nachman Kahana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/6544394c/attachment.html From youngbarzel at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 08:55:14 2009 From: youngbarzel at gmail.com (Hanoch Young) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 06:55:14 -0700 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay In-Reply-To: <54CBA2B9F689419084A75E3E0E6088B6@bettylaptop> References: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> <54CBA2B9F689419084A75E3E0E6088B6@bettylaptop> Message-ID: <855590370908280655s4ab7e270j62677215297d993e@mail.gmail.com> Hey Betty - Yes, Rav Nachman Kahana CUTS right to the point, I have already ordered three sets of his Torah commentaries, to be delivered to me in Israel. Yes, it's all drawing to a close....9 days.....and then I'm gone. This chapter is drawing to a close, with all its drama, hopes, tears and expectations. That was the time to study and learn from life's lessons; however tough it may have been at times. Now, the era of ACTION dawns, things are drawing to a confrontation worldwide, and, well, "this is it," so to speak.... I look forward to the day I can be at the airport and welcome YOU home.... Shabbat Shalom, * Hanoch * 2009/8/28 Betty K Givin > Thank you, Hanoch! So much food for thought here?Judah at its finest, > yes! I will have more study time tomorrow, but found this article to be so > succinct and to the point. > > BTW, I have lost track of your count as I have been on a work marathon for > weeks now?but I have a feeling it is soon. My heart and thoughts are so > much with you! I will have to give you my friends address?they too live in > the town of the Maccabees! > > > > Elisheva/Betty > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto: > dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] *On Behalf Of *Hanoch Young > *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2009 7:46 AM > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Subject:* [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay > > > > This is the commentary on the Parsha (Weekly Torah portion) from Rav > Nachman Kahana (he spells his last name differently then his brother did). > His 900+ page commentary in English, on the Torah is being printed, as I > write this. Judah at its finest..... > > > > Shabbat Shalom, > > * Hanoch* > > > > BS"D > > Parashat Ki Taytzay 5769 > > The parasha begins (Devarim 21:10) > > *?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????:*** > > *When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers > them into your hands and you take captives*** > > The Torah is referring to a "wining war" where the army of Israel totally > defeats its enemy, captures its peoples , cities and towns. The victory is > so decisive that the soldiers have time for "romantic" (halachically > authorized) interludes between the killings. > > But , we find in the Torah a reference to another kind of war. A war where > the situation for the army of Israel is ominous and threatening. The enemy > is about to defeat us, with all its dire implications. > > The Torah states (Bamidbar 10:9) > > *??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? > ?????? ??????? ???????:*** > > *When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is > oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered > by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies.*** > > The war referred to here is fought and fraught with potential disaster - > the enemy is "oppressing you." > > Two wars. Neither one a stalemate and deadlock, but one of complete victory > while the other is menacingly our very existence. What causes the huge > difference in the outcome of the between these conflicts? > > One could flippantly voice a standard answer that when we abide by the > Torah our army is victorious, but we lose wars when we are lax in abiding > with the Torah laws. I say "flippant" because that answer is too superficial > for such a serious question. The are numerous examples in the TaNaCh and in > post TaNaCh Jewish history of military victories when the Jewish people were > far from what is required from a Torah nation. So the answer must lie > elsewhere. > > That "elsewhere" is actually in the very wording of the two verses. > > In the verse of the victorious army of Israel it states: > > *When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers > them into your hands and you take captives* > > In the verse of adversity it says: > > *When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is > oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered > by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies.* > > "When you *go to war* against your enemies" taking the war into their > lands, than "the LORD your God delivers them into your hands;" however, "*When > you go into battle in your own land" *permitting the enemy to bring the > war onto your soil* *then you find yourself "*against an enemy who is > oppressing you".* > > In here lies the critical agenda for the Jewish people. Do what is > necessary for the welfare of the Jewish nation. Fear not man, but only do > what is favorable in the eyes of HaShem. > > Avraham went to war with 318 men in order to save his nephew Lot. > Yehonatan, son of King Shaul, attacked the entire Philistine army with only > the help of his shield bearer. David smote the giant Goliat with a stone in > his slingshot and HaShem in his heart. The Maccabees drove out the Greeks > from Eretz Yisrael with a small army of untrained soldiers. Tzahal defeated > seven standing armies in 1948. We fought the Egyptians and Syrians with > their Russian advisors in 1967 and again in 1973. Ten planes of the Israeli > air force flew over 1000 kilometers to destroy the nuclear reactor of Saddam > Hussein in Iraq. We flew over 3000 kilometers to rescue the Jews at Entebbe, > Uganda. > > HaShem has promised to bless the initiatives that we for His sake and for > the sake of His chosen people. The initiatives might be out of desperation, > and perhaps even irrational, as in the above mentioned examples in our > history, but nevertheless they were blessed with success. > > Kabala teaches that along the immeasurable road from "aiyn sof" (infinite) > entity of pure, total and absolute spirituality of HaShem four vastly > different worlds were necessary to produce our material and finite world. > The four wolds are called *atzilut* (emanation), *beri?a* (creation), * > yetzira* (formation) and our world called *asiya* (accomplishment). Angel > don?t do things - they are in a world of thought and contemplation. It is > only human beings who are given the task to be a partner of HaShem in the > final completion of His worlds. We must perform acts of mitzvot according to > the Torah which include the physical perfection of this world. We study > Torah in order to direct our activities and actions. The Jewish people were > placed in this world not to sit back and enjoy the scenery, rather we are > the scenery. It is not our function to passively let the enemy attack us; it > is we who must make pre-emptive attacks against our physical and spiritual > enemies. It is a passive sin to stay in the galut one moment longer than > HaShem has commanded in wait for the Mashiach to take you to Eretz Yisrael > on a flying carpet. > > Our parasha closes with the episode of the first concerted attack by the > arch-evil Amalek against the Jewish people in the desert. According to > chazal, the attack not intended to destroy the Jewish people, because Amalek > knew our strength, but was to initiate a devious long range psychological > war by the descendants of Eisav against the descendents of Ya?akov. > > On the verses (Devarim 25:17-18) > > > > *???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? > ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????*** > > *Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out > of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and > cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God*** > > Rashi quotes the midrash that explains the word *korcha* as referring to > coldness or ice. > > *??? ??? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??????? ???????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? > ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????.*** > > In the sense that Amalek by attacking the Jewish people after the great > miracles HaShem performed for, "cooled" off the nations? fear of the Jews by > demonstrating that one need not be afraid of waging war on the Jews. > > But I understand the intent of Amaleks?s "cooling off" in an additional > way. It was their attempt to diminish and even eradicate the great > enthusiasm, excitement, ardor, ecstasy, and zealousness which the Jewish > nation felt when being chosen by the Creator above all other nations. > > As stated above, the beginning of the parasha encourages and invigorates > our people to initiate great acts in the service of HaShem, but the parasha > ends by bringing the episode of Amalek whose life?s work is to extinguish > the enthusiasm of Torah that burns in the heart of every authentic Jew. > > Today, we are again the victims of Amalek who wish to impede the advance of > our people towards the time of the final redemption. When Tzahal liberated > the entire part of Eretz Yisrael on the western side of the Jordan River, > the UN imposed itself immediately in an attepmt to draw us back to the > borders of June 4, 1967. > > No annexation. No permanent settlements. No international recognition of > who began the war. No recognition that there never was a Palestine or > Palestinian nation, Just go back to the lines of 1967, but better yet, just > leave the holy land and go back to from when you came. > > This was the opening volley of Amalek in their never ending quest to > destroy the people of Israel. > > But we succeeded in containing their effort and baruch HaShem there are > today close to 400 thousands Jews in Shomron, Yehuda and the Golan. > > But now the relentless Amalek is shamelessly demonstrating its commitment > to paralyze the efforts of our nation in our return home. > > The President of the United States and his administration are trying to > "cool off" the great forward thrust of our people. No building. No new > roads. Just prepare to evacuate to the borders which Abba Eban called the > "Borders of Auschwitz". > > Israel will not commit suicide. If need be we will attack Iran in the > spirit of this week?s parasha. We shall continue to build and settle the > land and recall our God-given birthright. > > And all the while "remember what Amalek did to us." > > Shabbat Shalom > > > > Nachman Kahana > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/af1d07c3/attachment.html From tposborne77 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 10:08:12 2009 From: tposborne77 at yahoo.com (Tracy Osborne) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again In-Reply-To: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <216755.78135.qm@web112415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <778880.60392.qm@web51107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Shalom Susie, ? Please see my comments in red. I don't really haven't had?a lot of time to expound a lot these days...But,I have found a big difference between The Hebrew Torah Observant Rabbi Sha'ul?vs. The?Torah Negating Gentilized Christian Paul. Christians?use?a few "proof"?verses, taken out of their historical?Hebraic context of the first century and create Paul. The real name was Sha'ul. The church gentilized him.?And, others use the same verses to?nullify him. Was that his fault or those who?"twisted his words"? With love and respect for those who see things different! ? Tracy ________________________________ From: susie getskow To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 3:15:21 PM Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again For me the crux of your blog is this. Did Paul really teach anyone that the true "mother faith" was not the one true faith? [Absolutely Not!] Did Paul ever say that a Jew following that faith had to "convert" to anything? [Absolutely Not!] Or that accepting the promised Messiah would be a?"conversion" to a new religion? [Absolutely Not!]? We do not have the luxury of asking Paul what he meant by what he was saying so we have to figure it out. We only get a snippet of what Paul's actions were in the NT and his writings seem?to contradict his actions. [I don't know what actions you speak of. His actions were in perfect accord with Orthodox Hillel/Yeshua Judaism.] So either Paul was a consumate liar or his writings were misinterpretated. [Misinterpreted, Absolutely! Liar, Absolutely Not!] Is he starting a "new" religion or is he explaining how the long awaited [Messiah fits into the true faith YES??No new religion!] Could Paul have a sod level of understanding [ABSOUTELY. But he wrote mostly on the Remez...Containing hints and allegorys...] of the Hebrew Scriptures and how the Messiah would be the unifying middle pillar and how the Torah is pointing us to Messiah and Hashems plan? [Absolutely!] '?We have Gentiles taking over his teachings who barely have a pashat level of scripture [Absolutely!] and because of that we get all screwed up and that required changing translations [Absolutely!], putting words in quotations and creating a big mess! [Absolutely! Also, one's misunderstandings/presuppostions/bias' guide one's agenda. Also, Hakham Sha'ul and Hakham Sila(s) [Luke] wrote on a Remez Level.] If Yeshua is not the Messiah, then will and or how will Messiah Ben David effect the Torah and the Sacrificial system? [Messiah Ben David?will, And, I believe, that it is the spirit of Messiah that is now moving that process along and it will be completed when he appears.] The Hebrew Scriptures teach that Hashem never desired sacrifices [I have to disagree here] only prayer and repentance. [HaShem Himself instituted this temporary system?after Adam sinned to last until the end of the Messianic Age {in the eighth day - the olam haba}]?. It was part of repentance and reconciliation. At present...it is suspended...and our prayers?with the remembrance of that temporary system bring atonement. ? Why is Judaism scurrying to reinstate that system that Hashem ordained? [Because, The sacrificial system was suspended, not eliminated,?and it is to be re-instituted, or, at least the initial phases set in motion.] How will Hashem transition us into a non sacrificial system for sin? [That will take place a long time after Messiah ben David arrives] When Messiah Ben David arrives and the Jews and the Nations accept him will they be considered to be "converting" [Absolutely not!] or merely accepting the awaited promise of Hashem and his plan for restoration of all things?[YES!] Susie --- On Wed, 8/26/09, James Tabor wrote: >From: James Tabor >Subject: [Dialogue] Converting the Jews--Again >To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org >Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:03 AM > > >I am scheduled to go live on Tovia Singer's show live today at 3pm EST/10PM Israel time to discuss this latest move on the part of the Roman Catholic Bishops to clarify their position towards the Jewish people and the faith of Judaism.? > > >You can listen live or download the program later: > > >http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/ > > >My Blog entry with links to this breaking story is below, as well as some of my own reflections based on my understanding of the ideas of the apostle Paul. > > >Best, > > >James > > >You have my permission to circulate this freely... > > > > > >> >>TaborBlog >> >> >>"All things biblical" from ancient Judaism to Early Christianity >> >>You are subscribed as jamesdtabor at earthlink.net >>Converting the Jews--Again >>A recent statement titled "A Note on Ambiguities Contained in Covenant and Mission," issued by the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) is rightly causing lots of stir and controversy among Jewish leaders. Despite what had come to be seen as progress based on the 1965 Second Vatican Council declaration, Nostra Aetate, with its assertion that the Jewish people collectively are not to be blamed for the death of Jesus as well as a general understanding that interfaith dialogue should not have as its purpose the conversion of Jews, this latest statement from the USCCB makes clear that the Catholic Church stands firm in its historic position that Christianity has superseded and thus effectively replaced Judaism: >>"The long story of God's intervention in the history of Israel comes to its unsurpassable culmination in Jesus Christ, who is God become man."? According to the document, "we also believe that the fulfillment of the covenants, indeed, of all God's promises to Israel, is found only in Jesus Christ." >>Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamantion League (ADL) has issued for formal statement of protest, highlighted on the ADL Web site: >>ADL Troubled By U.S. Bishops' Statement That Appears to Green Light Missionizing Of Jews >>The Catholic News Service (CNS) has also posted a story: >>Jewish leaders say bishops' June statement could hurt dialogue >>A more pointed story was just posted by Israel National News ISN): >>US Jews Enraged by Catholic Document Urging Missionizing of Jews >>Despite Pope John Paul II's language about the Covenant with Israel being one that was "never revoked," the Bishops were keen to make clear that such language does not in any way preclude "supersessionism,"that is, the notion that this "Old Covenant" has in point of fact become obsolete. Jews remain valuable as "historic witness" to God's previous dealings with humankind, but there is nothing in the Roman Catholic understanding of salvation, past or present, that declares the Jewish people, short of accepting Christ, as enjoying a fulfilled relationship with God. Accordingly, the historic Christian insistence on the "conversion of Jews" remains central to the Christian mission, despite any progress in ecumenical dialogue and exchange among Rabbis and Bishops.... >>Read more at: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/25/converting-the-jews-again/ >> >> >> >>To stop receiving these emails please unsubscribe. >> >> > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > >_______________________________________________ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/cb5deb76/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 28 10:20:46 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:20:46 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay In-Reply-To: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> References: <855590370908280545m5e9080c8t4962969026309ab8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hanoch, this is terrific!!!! When I read about sounding a "blast on the trumpets" as quoted below, I was thinking that it would also be a wonderful thing to be able to actually hear such a blast as we pray for Israel. I've copied a link below so that we can actually hear a blast of the trumpets through our computers as we pray, to remind us of HaShem's promise to "rescue from your enemies" when the blast sounds! When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. Numbers 10:9 http://www.piney.com/Shofar.html Thank you so much, and Shabbat Shalom to all, Avigail/Pat From: Hanoch Young Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:45 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Parshat Ki Taytzay This is the commentary on the Parsha (Weekly Torah portion) from Rav Nachman Kahana (he spells his last name differently then his brother did). His 900+ page commentary in English, on the Torah is being printed, as I write this. Judah at its finest..... Shabbat Shalom, Hanoch BS"D Parashat Ki Taytzay 5769 The parasha begins (Devarim 21:10) ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????: When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives The Torah is referring to a "wining war" where the army of Israel totally defeats its enemy, captures its peoples , cities and towns. The victory is so decisive that the soldiers have time for "romantic" (halachically authorized) interludes between the killings. But , we find in the Torah a reference to another kind of war. A war where the situation for the army of Israel is ominous and threatening. The enemy is about to defeat us, with all its dire implications. The Torah states (Bamidbar 10:9) ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???????: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. The war referred to here is fought and fraught with potential disaster - the enemy is "oppressing you." Two wars. Neither one a stalemate and deadlock, but one of complete victory while the other is menacingly our very existence. What causes the huge difference in the outcome of the between these conflicts? One could flippantly voice a standard answer that when we abide by the Torah our army is victorious, but we lose wars when we are lax in abiding with the Torah laws. I say "flippant" because that answer is too superficial for such a serious question. The are numerous examples in the TaNaCh and in post TaNaCh Jewish history of military victories when the Jewish people were far from what is required from a Torah nation. So the answer must lie elsewhere. That "elsewhere" is actually in the very wording of the two verses. In the verse of the victorious army of Israel it states: When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives In the verse of adversity it says: When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the LORD your God and rescued from your enemies. "When you go to war against your enemies" taking the war into their lands, than "the LORD your God delivers them into your hands;" however, "When you go into battle in your own land" permitting the enemy to bring the war onto your soil then you find yourself "against an enemy who is oppressing you". In here lies the critical agenda for the Jewish people. Do what is necessary for the welfare of the Jewish nation. Fear not man, but only do what is favorable in the eyes of HaShem. Avraham went to war with 318 men in order to save his nephew Lot. Yehonatan, son of King Shaul, attacked the entire Philistine army with only the help of his shield bearer. David smote the giant Goliat with a stone in his slingshot and HaShem in his heart. The Maccabees drove out the Greeks from Eretz Yisrael with a small army of untrained soldiers. Tzahal defeated seven standing armies in 1948. We fought the Egyptians and Syrians with their Russian advisors in 1967 and again in 1973. Ten planes of the Israeli air force flew over 1000 kilometers to destroy the nuclear reactor of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We flew over 3000 kilometers to rescue the Jews at Entebbe, Uganda. HaShem has promised to bless the initiatives that we for His sake and for the sake of His chosen people. The initiatives might be out of desperation, and perhaps even irrational, as in the above mentioned examples in our history, but nevertheless they were blessed with success. Kabala teaches that along the immeasurable road from "aiyn sof" (infinite) entity of pure, total and absolute spirituality of HaShem four vastly different worlds were necessary to produce our material and finite world. The four wolds are called atzilut (emanation), beri?a (creation), yetzira (formation) and our world called asiya (accomplishment). Angel don?t do things - they are in a world of thought and contemplation. It is only human beings who are given the task to be a partner of HaShem in the final completion of His worlds. We must perform acts of mitzvot according to the Torah which include the physical perfection of this world. We study Torah in order to direct our activities and actions. The Jewish people were placed in this world not to sit back and enjoy the scenery, rather we are the scenery. It is not our function to passively let the enemy attack us; it is we who must make pre-emptive attacks against our physical and spiritual enemies. It is a passive sin to stay in the galut one moment longer than HaShem has commanded in wait for the Mashiach to take you to Eretz Yisrael on a flying carpet. Our parasha closes with the episode of the first concerted attack by the arch-evil Amalek against the Jewish people in the desert. According to chazal, the attack not intended to destroy the Jewish people, because Amalek knew our strength, but was to initiate a devious long range psychological war by the descendants of Eisav against the descendents of Ya?akov. On the verses (Devarim 25:17-18) ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God Rashi quotes the midrash that explains the word korcha as referring to coldness or ice. ??? ??? ???? ??? ????, ???? ??????? ???????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??????. In the sense that Amalek by attacking the Jewish people after the great miracles HaShem performed for, "cooled" off the nations? fear of the Jews by demonstrating that one need not be afraid of waging war on the Jews. But I understand the intent of Amaleks?s "cooling off" in an additional way. It was their attempt to diminish and even eradicate the great enthusiasm, excitement, ardor, ecstasy, and zealousness which the Jewish nation felt when being chosen by the Creator above all other nations. As stated above, the beginning of the parasha encourages and invigorates our people to initiate great acts in the service of HaShem, but the parasha ends by bringing the episode of Amalek whose life?s work is to extinguish the enthusiasm of Torah that burns in the heart of every authentic Jew. Today, we are again the victims of Amalek who wish to impede the advance of our people towards the time of the final redemption. When Tzahal liberated the entire part of Eretz Yisrael on the western side of the Jordan River, the UN imposed itself immediately in an attepmt to draw us back to the borders of June 4, 1967. No annexation. No permanent settlements. No international recognition of who began the war. No recognition that there never was a Palestine or Palestinian nation, Just go back to the lines of 1967, but better yet, just leave the holy land and go back to from when you came. This was the opening volley of Amalek in their never ending quest to destroy the people of Israel. But we succeeded in containing their effort and baruch HaShem there are today close to 400 thousands Jews in Shomron, Yehuda and the Golan. But now the relentless Amalek is shamelessly demonstrating its commitment to paralyze the efforts of our nation in our return home. The President of the United States and his administration are trying to "cool off" the great forward thrust of our people. No building. No new roads. Just prepare to evacuate to the borders which Abba Eban called the "Borders of Auschwitz". Israel will not commit suicide. If need be we will attack Iran in the spirit of this week?s parasha. We shall continue to build and settle the land and recall our God-given birthright. And all the while "remember what Amalek did to us." Shabbat Shalom Nachman Kahana -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090828/4b482475/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Fri Aug 28 16:03:38 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:03:38 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Tovia Singer Interview on INR re: Converting Jews Message-ID: <431A2848-9367-47D2-ACF4-41FF4F9A25C3@earthlink.net> For those interested the interview I did with Tovia Singer on INR on Wednesday regarding the latest U.S. Roman Catholic Bishops' statement regarding its affirmative position on seeking to "bring Jews to Christ" is now posted: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1343 Shabbat Shalom, James Tabor From rossknichols at me.com Sat Aug 29 09:13:28 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 09:13:28 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Ki Tetze Message-ID: I just wanted to remind everyone of the service this morning. You can join us live at 10:30 am central time. I will be teaching on "spiritual warfare" among other things. Go to rootsoffaith.net, select the tab at the top labeled "webcasts" and choose audio or video. I hope you can join in. I also hope that we can have some dialogue about the reading on this list. Shalom Sent from my iPhone From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sat Aug 29 16:56:25 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:56:25 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement Message-ID: I am not sure how many of you may have heard of Severtus, courageous martyr nearly 500 years ago. I have admired him for many years and had occasion today to post something relevant to both his life and his cause. There is a rather amazing movement among evangelical Christian circles towards what is being called "biblical unitarianism." For more take a look at my latest Blog post: http://jamestabor.com/2009/08/29/remembering-servetus-past-and-present/ Shabbat Shalom, James From rossknichols at me.com Sat Aug 29 22:35:57 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 22:35:57 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Class on Ki Tetze Message-ID: <9E0A30C0-BC2B-4EB2-8D5A-4E1AEA8F2467@me.com> My class from this morning on Ki Tetze is up and ready for download for those who are interested. (www.rootsoffaith.org) You can also log in and watch the service by going to www.rootsoffaith.org/streaming-video Shalom to you all, Ross From chcashmore at hotmail.com Sun Aug 30 05:54:15 2009 From: chcashmore at hotmail.com (Catherine Cashmore) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:54:15 +1000 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement Message-ID: This is fascinating stuff James - I know of many small organisations that deny the trinity however I had never heard of Severtus. Thank you for this. Have already forwarded the article to a few contacts who will find this heartening. _________________________________________________________________ Take a peek at other people's pay and perks Check out The Great Australian Pay Check http://clk.atdmt.com/NMN/go/157639755/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/a8cf068f/attachment.html From jamesdtabor at earthlink.net Sun Aug 30 07:29:20 2009 From: jamesdtabor at earthlink.net (James Tabor) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 08:29:20 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Catherine. I am not surprised that Severtus is virtually unknown. He was truly an amazing character and deserves remembering. Take care, James On Aug 30, 2009, at 6:54 AM, Catherine Cashmore wrote: > This is fascinating stuff James - I know of many small organisations > that deny the trinity however I had never heard of Severtus. Thank > you for this. Have already forwarded the article to a few contacts > who will find this heartening. > Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other > people's pay and perks_______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/34e78309/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 30 10:07:30 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:07:30 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great news, James!!! Thank you so much for alerting us all to both the original Martyr, Severtus, and the "new" Severtus. I really appreciate this information. Shavua tov all, Pat From: Catherine Cashmore Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement This is fascinating stuff James - I know of many small organisations that deny the trinity however I had never heard of Severtus. Thank you for this. Have already forwarded the article to a few contacts who will find this heartening. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other people's pay and perks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/1227b447/attachment.html From bkgivin at verizon.net Sun Aug 30 10:20:32 2009 From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:20:32 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me too, James.both men are to be admired and honored for their stance. I wonder how many others were put to death for the same reason.how sad and blind people are to be so cruel and self-righteous! 2010 should be interesting to see the hidden identity of the "new" Severtus! Thanks for sharing and shavuah tov! Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The One God Movement Great news, James!!! Thank you so much for alerting us all to both the original Martyr, Severtus, and the "new" Severtus. I really appreciate this information. Shavua tov all, Pat From: Catherine Cashmore Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement This is fascinating stuff James - I know of many small organisations that deny the trinity however I had never heard of Severtus. Thank you for this. Have already forwarded the article to a few contacts who will find this heartening. _____ Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other people's pay and perks _____ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/177efdcc/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Sun Aug 30 10:54:41 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Won't be until 2011, though I wish it was 2010! When I read this beautiful reply you wrote, Betty, I checked again because I thought I remembered it would be kind of a long way off. From: Betty K Givin Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 11:20 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: RE: [Dialogue] The One God Movement Me too, James.both men are to be admired and honored for their stance. I wonder how many others were put to death for the same reason.how sad and blind people are to be so cruel and self-righteous! 2010 should be interesting to see the hidden identity of the "new" Severtus! Thanks for sharing and shavuah tov! Betty -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:08 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] The One God Movement Great news, James!!! Thank you so much for alerting us all to both the original Martyr, Severtus, and the "new" Severtus. I really appreciate this information. Shavua tov all, Pat From: Catherine Cashmore Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 6:54 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] The One God Movement This is fascinating stuff James - I know of many small organisations that deny the trinity however I had never heard of Severtus. Thank you for this. Have already forwarded the article to a few contacts who will find this heartening. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other people's pay and perks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/e0ac61d4/attachment.html From rossknichols at me.com Sun Aug 30 12:01:31 2009 From: rossknichols at me.com (Ross Nichols) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 12:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Preaching Moses in the 1500s Message-ID: <2B1E0C3D-1C58-4E79-ADC8-D6BD4A403FFC@me.com> As the month of August draws to an end I am reminded of an article I published on my blog a couple of years ago. It seems that between October 1524 and February 1527 one of the most famous Christian ministers was on a roll. Among those targeted in his sermons was a group of people who were preaching Moses and encouraging people to keep the commandments. At the end of August he gave a powerful sermon criticizing their views. I wish that he could see how miserably he failed to "sweep Moses under the rug". I hope to re-write this article at some point but wanted to send the link for those that are interested. I think that it is fitting to do so as August comes to a close. http://rootsoffaith.org/2007/08/27/regarding-moses-revisiting-an-old-sermon.htm Sent from my iPhone From mhyde7 at tds.net Sun Aug 30 17:59:32 2009 From: mhyde7 at tds.net (Marvin Hyde) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 18:59:32 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah Message-ID: <4761B2136DC94A65B49C94A934AD265B@TESTPC> The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith Indeed, talking of faith in God is quite vague. What exactly does faith in God include? What are the articles or principles of faith as delineated by the Torah? And, are they different for Jews and for non-Jews? Though faith is a super-rational faculty, and therefore not normally subject to translation into a limited set of logical ordered principles, about 850 years ago, Maimonides-arguably the greatest authority on Jewish law and Torah thought 1-compiled a list of 13 principles of Jewish faith. 2 They are: 1. God is the Creator and is responsible for all that happens. 2. God is One 3. God is not corporeal. 4. God is non-temporal. 5. God alone should be worshiped. 6. Prophecy is true. 7. The prophecy of Moses is primary and true. 8. The Torah is complete 9. The Torah is eternal. 10. There is Divine Providence. 11. God gives reward and punishment 12. The Messiah will arrive 13. God will resurrect the dead As argued by later authorities, 3 Maimonides 13 principles all stem from 3 more general principles: 1. Faith in the Oneness and Singularity of the Almighty, out of which stem the first through the fifth principles; 2. Faith in the Torah's universal and everlasting verity as the expression of God's Will, out of which stem the sixth through the ninth principles; and, 3. Faith in reward and punishment based on each individual's conduct, from which stem the tenth through the thirteenth principles. Of course, these three principles themselves are all an elaboration of the Torah's all inclusive expression of faith in the absolute Oneness of God: "Hear O' Israel, God is our God, God is One." 4 This weekend and Sabbath their have several topics mention that has given us much to study. I had a chance to work through Psa 96-101 as suggested by Dr. Tabor. After 10 pages of notes, I laid the pencil down. I hope to comment in a few days on just the first few verses/chapters that corresponded with my previous studies coming from the 1st - 3 days of last week. If you have not spent time in these Psalms, there is a feast awaiting you. I want to pose a question for any and all. Looking at the attached principles above, I think most people oriented to the bible could agree on some level. For the past 2000 years Jews and Christians have disagreed, discussed, fought over this messiah figure. In the name of their messiah Christians have killed untold numbers of Jews and other humans. Needless to say, there is still disagreement, which is a good thing or "all the nations" would have the wrong ideals about God. My question, What does it do to our faith, or salvation, or standing with Hashem if we collectively, just stop believing in a person, concept, principle, entity or any other way to describe this ideal(of messiah). Just absolutely refuse to believe, preach, espouse this ideal or concept of a coming messiah. We just all agree there is ONE it is YHVH and we have no faith or believe in any other. Im not only asking or suggesting getting rid of Jesus. I am asking what if.... We do away with the idea / concept of messiah. ALL OF IT!!! What changes? The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. Which is the last principle of Maimonides (13) and possibly does away with (10 thru 12) also. Therefore if we have divine providence, no resurrection, we also have no idea of messiah and nor rewards and punishment. I have almost answered my question, but how deep is the concept of Messiah in what we are struggling to find in the world and in our own personal life's / walk with God? Beliefs The Sadducees are said to have rejected all Jewish observances not explicitly taught in the pentateuchal law. In their legal debates, the Sadducees consistently pushed for a strict and narrow application of the law. They repudiated the notions of resurrection and rewards and punishments after death. According to Josephus, they even denied the immortality of the soul. The Sadducees tended to diassociate God from human affairs. For this reason, they maintained that human choices and actions were totally free, unrestrained by divine interference. Consistent with this emphasis on human autonomy, the Sadducees denied the existence of angels and preterhuman spirits. Most scholars have held that these beliefs mark off the Sadducees as conservatives who stubbornly resisted the innovations of the Pharisees and others. It should be noted, on the other hand, that these beliefs could just as easily describe hellenized aristocrats who wanted to minimize as much as possible the claims of their ancestral religion on their daily lives. Sadducees and the NT Unlike the Pharisees, the Sadducees are consistently painted in a bad light by the NT writers. Their opposition to Jesus and the early church is presented as monolithic and constant. Reasons for the hostility are not hard to imagine. To the Sadducees, Jesus and his early followers would have appeared as destabilizing forces in delicate balance between limited Jewish freedom and totalitarian Roman rule. But just as significantly, the Sadducees could not have had anything but contempt for a movement that proclaimed the present reality of the resurrection and the unconditional necessity of repentance. S Taylor (Elwell Evangelical Dictionary) Therefore we can say that the Sadducees dropped the last 3 principles of Maimonides. No rewards, no punishment, no heaven, no hell. No messiah, no resurrection of the dead. Can we say that they were totally centered in this world? Did the teach, follow torah in this world or receive punishment in this world? No ones coming to help you, hashem gave the torah, do it or die? When you die, there is no resurrection so the grave is the end? At this point we can understand why the Sadducees ceased to exist. The first 5 principles, could we say had already been agreed on by the great minds of "all the nations"? But of all the things to fight over these last 2000 years can you find another set of principles that have such far reaching possibilities? I guess the bottom line, this concept, ideal of messiah, regardless of the face you want to put on it, is larger then any of us can imagine. Can we say it is the watershed of the last 2000 years and continues to direct and propel us into the future. Shalom, marvin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/2993f448/attachment.html From chattertonw at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 30 19:30:23 2009 From: chattertonw at bellsouth.net (W Glenn Chatterton) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah In-Reply-To: <4761B2136DC94A65B49C94A934AD265B@TESTPC> Message-ID: <424625.44213.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Marvin, ? I have basically done as you suggest - abandoned any pre-conceived notions I once held about a 'messiah' figure. The more I studied, the less I saw in the Tenakh that lined up with the dogma I had been given over the years. So I finally realized I simply had no idea what a messiah is/was. I am at a point where I see little relevance this person might hold in my daily walk with YHVH. I see no where in the Hebrew scriptures where I am to worship him, or ask him to forgive my sins, or come into my heart by faith, or one day raise me from the dead. I DO see where I am to ask YHVH to do these things, however. I realize I could be way off base, but that is OK, because YHVH said I will find Him if I seek for Him with my whole heart. I am not instructed, as best?I can find, to seek any other. ? I agree in principle with most of the tenants you related below. Much lies in how some of them are 'spun', if you will, but most are straightforward and easy enough to grasp. There is only One God, who alone deserves my singleness in?devotion. He is not a man like me. He lives apart from time and space and has no form that I can perceive unless He chooses to reveal Himself to me. His word to and through the prophets is true, as is His Torah. He will one day judge each of us according to our deeds. He has ordered the universe and all things in it according to His own will and plans, yet (I believe) still affords His creatures the free will to choose right from wrong, obedience or disobedience. ? What YHVH may plan to do with Mashiach, who ever that might be, is really none of my business as?I now see it. That of course may change over time, but it is where I am right now. I am still taking baby steps in Torah, so I'll leave these matters to the sages who have walked with YHVH long enough to have some inkling as to what the Tenakh has to say on such matters. I consider myself blessed to have been given the opportunity to obey the simple "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not"s of the Torah. I find these give me more than enough to fill my days as I learn to walk in the Ways of YHVH. ? This is how I see it from my vantage point, ? Glenn wrote: From: Marvin Hyde Subject: [Dialogue] Concept of messiah To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Sunday, August 30, 2009, 5:59 PM ? The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith Indeed, talking of faith in God is quite vague. What exactly does faith in God include? What are the articles or principles of faith as delineated by the Torah? And, are they different for Jews and for non-Jews? Though faith is a super-rational faculty, and therefore not normally subject to translation into a limited set of logical ordered principles, about 850 years ago, Maimonides?arguably the greatest authority on Jewish law and Torah thought1?compiled a list of 13 principles of Jewish faith.2 They are: God is the Creator and is responsible for all that happens. God is One God is not corporeal. God is non-temporal. God alone should be worshiped. Prophecy is true. The prophecy of Moses is primary and true. The Torah is complete The Torah is eternal. There is Divine Providence. God gives reward and punishment The Messiah will arrive God will resurrect the dead As argued by later authorities,3 Maimonides 13 principles all stem from 3 more general principles: Faith in the Oneness and Singularity of the Almighty, out of which stem the first through the fifth principles; Faith in the Torah?s universal and everlasting verity as the expression of God?s Will, out of which stem the sixth through the ninth principles; and, Faith in reward and punishment based on each individual?s conduct, from which stem the tenth through the thirteenth principles. Of course, these three principles themselves are all an elaboration of the Torah?s all inclusive expression of faith in the absolute Oneness of God: ?Hear O? Israel , God is our God, God is One.?4 ? This weekend and Sabbath their have several topics mention that has given us much to study.? I had a chance to work through Psa 96-101 as suggested by Dr. Tabor.? After 10 pages of notes, I laid the pencil down.? I hope to comment in a few days on just the first few verses/chapters that corresponded with my previous studies coming from the 1st? - 3 days of last week. If you have not spent time in these Psalms, there is a feast awaiting you.? I want to pose a question for any and all.? Looking at the attached principles above, I think most people oriented to the bible could agree on some level.?? For the past 2000 years Jews and Christians have disagreed, discussed, fought over this messiah figure. In the name of their messiah Christians have killed untold numbers of Jews and other humans.? Needless to say, there is still disagreement, which is a good thing or ?all the nations? would have the wrong ideals about God.? My question,? What does it do to our faith, or salvation, or standing with Hashem if we collectively, just stop believing in a person, concept, principle, entity or any other way to describe this ideal(of messiah).?? Just absolutely refuse to believe, preach, espouse this ideal or concept of a coming messiah. ??We just all agree there is ONE it is YHVH and we have no faith or believe in any other. Im not only asking or suggesting getting rid of Jesus. I am asking what if???. We do away with the idea / concept of messiah. ALL OF IT!!!? ?What changes??? The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.? Which is the last principle of Maimonides (13) and possibly does away with (10 thru 12) also.? Therefore if we have divine providence, no resurrection, we also have no idea of messiah and nor rewards and punishment.??? I have almost answered my question, but how deep is the concept of Messiah in what we are struggling to find in the world and in our own personal life?s / walk with God? ?Beliefs The Sadducees are said to have rejected all Jewish observances not explicitly taught in the pentateuchal law. In their legal debates, the Sadducees consistently pushed for a strict and narrow application of the law. They repudiated the notions of resurrection and rewards and punishments after death. According to Josephus, they even denied the immortality of the soul. The Sadducees tended to diassociate God from human affairs. For this reason, they maintained that human choices and actions were totally free, unrestrained by divine interference. Consistent with this emphasis on human autonomy, the Sadducees denied the existence of angels and preterhuman spirits. Most scholars have held that these beliefs mark off the Sadducees as conservatives who stubbornly resisted the innovations of the Pharisees and others. It should be noted, on the other hand, that these beliefs could just as easily describe hellenized aristocrats who wanted to minimize as much as possible the claims of their ancestral religion on their daily lives. Sadducees and the NT Unlike the Pharisees, the Sadducees are consistently painted in a bad light by the NT writers. Their opposition to Jesus and the early church is presented as monolithic and constant. Reasons for the hostility are not hard to imagine. To the Sadducees, Jesus and his early followers would have appeared as destabilizing forces in delicate balance between limited Jewish freedom and totalitarian Roman rule. But just as significantly, the Sadducees could not have had anything but contempt for a movement that proclaimed the present reality of the resurrection and the unconditional necessity of repentance. S Taylor (Elwell Evangelical Dictionary) ? Therefore we can say that the Sadducees dropped the last 3 principles of Maimonides.? No rewards, no punishment, no heaven, no hell.? No messiah, no resurrection of the dead.? Can we say that they were totally centered in this world? Did the teach, follow torah in this world or receive punishment in this world?? No ones coming to help you, hashem gave the torah, do it or die?? When you die, there is no resurrection so the grave is the end? At this point we can understand why the Sadducees ceased to exist.? The first 5 principles, could we say had already been agreed on by the great minds of ?all the nations?? ??But of all the things to fight over these last 2000 years can you find another set of principles that have such far reaching possibilities???? I guess the bottom line, this concept, ideal of messiah, regardless of the face you want to put on it, is larger then any of us can imagine. ?Can we say it is the watershed of the last 2000 years and continues to direct and propel us into the future. ? Shalom, marvin ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090830/d9c8e070/attachment.html From danielharveywells at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 10:20:31 2009 From: danielharveywells at yahoo.com (daniel wells) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 08:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? Message-ID: <135469.65599.qm@web32008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> why would u want to? --- On Thu, 8/27/09, dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org wrote: From: dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 9:49 AM Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to ??? dialogue at rootsoffaith.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..." Today's Topics: ???1. A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) ???2. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) ???3. Re: A Jesus question? (W Glenn Chatterton) ???4. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) ???5. Re: A Jesus question? (Batyah) ???6. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) ???7. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) ???8. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) ???9. RE: A Jesus question? (Marvin Hyde) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:36:48 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: ??? <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey James, ? ???To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. ? ???Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *???Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/a1ca27f6/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:31:47 -0400 From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts,? mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be? lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime,? of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer? on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the? teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views? expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off? from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what? they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other? name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to? you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey James, > >? ? ? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic? > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept? > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without? > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or? > national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one? > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree? > with THEIR belief system. > >? ? ? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Hanoch > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/1bdca223/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT) From: W Glenn Chatterton Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <441993.18819.qm at web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Hanoch, ? I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... ? Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, ? ???? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,'?or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ???? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ???????????????????? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/cc3c7d26/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:49:46 -0400 From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <3B911AF2-1E55-432E-9687-30E5D2D5E1F6 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in? the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I? understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description...? > they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in? > south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > Hey James, > >? ? ? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic? > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept? > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without? > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or? > national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one? > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree? > with THEIR belief system. > >? ? ? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Hanoch > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/371fec7e/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:01:52 -0400 From: "Batyah" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: Message-ID: <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254 at BatYah> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Hanoch, We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. Shalom, BatYah Spiker ? ----- Original Message ----- ? From: Hanoch Young ? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org ? Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM ? Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? ? Hey James, ? ? ???To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ? ???Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ? _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/c981cf53/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:36:26 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: ??? <855590370908270636t20a70342s2bf8403f5f3b425b at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Glenn - ? ? LOL? I really needed? THAT one, toda!? :-)? In the annals of history, I think it will be noted that it has occurred in *St.Francisville*....which should give the Church more indigestion!? Take care pal, see ya in the Holy Land... ? ? ? ? ? ? ???*? Hanoch* On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton < chattertonw at bellsouth.net> wrote: >???Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet > each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young * wrote: > > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > >? Hey James, > >? ? ? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national > savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > >? ? ? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???*???Hanoch* > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/e16215d0/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:39:18 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: ??? <855590370908270639v40005710vef14be6f69ff63e9 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks James....yeah, Acts 4:12 doesn't seem to come up too often in discussions..... It's like what I told you about the UIWU being the only non-missionary organization I could think of..... See you in Israel! ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *? ? Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:31 AM, James Tabor wrote: > I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute > them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from > Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation > and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast > yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by > definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who > reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of > personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. > Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be > saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. > > Best, > > James > >???On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > >???Hey James, > >? ? ? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national > savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > >? ? ? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???*???Hanoch* > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/82f51277/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:41:29 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: ??? <855590370908270641l53379761n9751a9dce02a2ccf at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey BatYah, ? ? Thanks for your note,? yes, we are few, but growing! ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Batyah wrote: >? Hi Hanoch, > > We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. > > Shalom, > BatYah Spiker > >? ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Hanoch Young >? *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > >???Hey James, > >? ? ? To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national > savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > >? ? ? Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???*???Hanoch* > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/3ece5135/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:49:11 -0400 From: "Marvin Hyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: Message-ID: <7A60977BF27D4666A6589AF3D646FFCC at TESTPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree Hanoch there are those who secretly believe that the Jews are cut off and must accept Jesus or be doom. There are others who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but in no, way believe that Jews have to accept him like Christians.? Others are of the position that something happened in the first century that changed the world for good, but the question of accepting Jesus is a moot point at this time in history. When Moshiach shows up he will be who he is, then is the time to accept him, now it is impossible to guess who the right person might be.? So we keep waiting.???The playing field is filled with many different positions. Everyone should be open and honest in their dialogue, with Jews.? Based on where they are in their understanding.? Tovia singer joked with a Rabbi he was interviewing last night about getting Mike Huckabee on the fast track to conversation.? The point as I took it was that ACTIONS speak much louder then words.???Only Hashem, knows our hearts but our actions SCREAM to the world how we feel about Jews, or Israelites.??? Now to James point, I think your painting with a pretty broad brush, but I understand that,? due to the many different understandings of paul and the Christian beginnings and development. "those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T."???I personally think that regardless of how much dialogue Jews and christians do with each community, both community's will have to deal with each other and each others text until the truth, like cream off milk raises to the top.? But with that being said, we should be open and honest with were we stand on the more difficult and decisive issue. As we learn we grow and mature, if we don't then were not learning.???As mention, the groups in LA. SC, NC, like other groups have grown in their understanding and therefore can dialogue with the Jews on a different level, but even those groups have not come to a point in their understanding that they should convert and become a Jew.? Without anyone responding to that last sentence, I understand..? I have my reasons for not converting also, however, our heart is toward the God of the land and the people.? Some people in / on this journey have simply refused to deal with the N.T. and have cut if off from there biblical text.? Maybe, some of these are the ones who are Noahides, simply undoing 2000 years of history.? But, that is o.k. we all understand things differently. The question was asked, If you stood on the ground in the years between 30 and 90 c.e. and took bets on which of the sects and different religions would survive into the future, where would you place your money? Pharaseeism, saduceeism, Eboniteism, Nazerenism,? esseneism , maybe the groups out at the dead sea, this sect of the way, the one's they called Christians?. How about Mithraism, yea maybe we can hit the lotto with that one.???My point,? history is history, all we can do is try to understand it. Now, one point or question I would like a response to is this.? In Paul's discourse in Romams about the branches being cut, how can we understand what he meant by cut off.???If you talk to a person who prunes vineyards, they would tell you that pruning is good for the root plant and that each branch cut off can be stuck right in to the earth and start a new plant.? If you talk to Christians, the cutting off of branches means, ACEEPT? jesus or burn in hell.(to your point yesterday James, Christianity(the church) has not changed a bit)???Paul, tells his follows to not go that far.? My question. In normative Judaism of the first century, what happened to Jews who did not serve God?? ? Good people, kind to there neighbors, good to their fellowman, just to busy to go to the temple, keep all of the commandments, do all the feast and so forth.? ? We know they were there!? how did the rabbi's deal with them?? Did the Rabbi's pound the pulpit and scream, "accept the torah and Moses or you will BURN in hell fire,...???forever and ever.????Anyone like to respond? Shalom, marvin ? _____? From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: Hey James, ? ???To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua?? Whether as a personal, or national savior?? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system.? ? ???Anyone have any thoughts?? Please jump in? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/dd855b1c/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 **************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090831/30c252bf/attachment.html From patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com Mon Aug 31 18:44:11 2009 From: patriciarobbinz at hotmail.com (Pat Robbins) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:44:11 -0400 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? In-Reply-To: <135469.65599.qm@web32008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <135469.65599.qm@web32008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Daniel, I think you ask a very good question. Not sure if I have the answer, but I believe the reason for Jews reaching out to dialogue and work on projects together with Christians is to help Christians understand more where Jews are coming from and why, and also to join together in making the Land we both love strong against an enemy who wishes nothing more than to drive every Jew into the sea and take over their G-d-given heritage. I'm sure there is much more to it than that, but I believe both those ideas would be included. Shalom, Avigail/Pat From: daniel wells Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:20 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16,Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? why would u want to? --- On Thu, 8/27/09, dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org wrote: From: dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 9:49 AM Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to dialogue at rootsoffaith.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org You can reach the person managing the list at dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..." Today's Topics: 1. A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 2. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) 3. Re: A Jesus question? (W Glenn Chatterton) 4. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) 5. Re: A Jesus question? (Batyah) 6. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 7. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 8. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 9. RE: A Jesus question? (Marvin Hyde) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:36:48 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/a1ca27f6/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:31:47 -0400 From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/1bdca223/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT) From: W Glenn Chatterton Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <441993.18819.qm at web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Hanoch, I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: From: Hanoch Young Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/cc3c7d26/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:49:46 -0400 From: James Tabor Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <3B911AF2-1E55-432E-9687-30E5D2D5E1F6 at earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... > they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in > south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young wrote: > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/371fec7e/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:01:52 -0400 From: "Batyah" Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: Message-ID: <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254 at BatYah> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Hanoch, We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. Shalom, BatYah Spiker ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/c981cf53/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:36:26 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270636t20a70342s2bf8403f5f3b425b at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Glenn - LOL I really needed THAT one, toda! :-) In the annals of history, I think it will be noted that it has occurred in *St.Francisville*....which should give the Church more indigestion! Take care pal, see ya in the Holy Land... * Hanoch* On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton < chattertonw at bellsouth.net> wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet > each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young * wrote: > > > From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/e16215d0/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:39:18 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270639v40005710vef14be6f69ff63e9 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks James....yeah, Acts 4:12 doesn't seem to come up too often in discussions..... It's like what I told you about the UIWU being the only non-missionary organization I could think of..... See you in Israel! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:31 AM, James Tabor wrote: > I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute > them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from > Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation > and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast > yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by > definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who > reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of > personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. > Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be > saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. > > Best, > > James > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/82f51277/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:41:29 -0700 From: Hanoch Young Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270641l53379761n9751a9dce02a2ccf at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey BatYah, Thanks for your note, yes, we are few, but growing! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Batyah wrote: > Hi Hanoch, > > We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. > > Shalom, > BatYah Spiker > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Hanoch Young > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/3ece5135/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:49:11 -0400 From: "Marvin Hyde" Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: Message-ID: <7A60977BF27D4666A6589AF3D646FFCC at TESTPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree Hanoch there are those who secretly believe that the Jews are cut off and must accept Jesus or be doom. There are others who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but in no, way believe that Jews have to accept him like Christians. Others are of the position that something happened in the first century that changed the world for good, but the question of accepting Jesus is a moot point at this time in history. When Moshiach shows up he will be who he is, then is the time to accept him, now it is impossible to guess who the right person might be. So we keep waiting. The playing field is filled with many different positions. Everyone should be open and honest in their dialogue, with Jews. Based on where they are in their understanding. Tovia singer joked with a Rabbi he was interviewing last night about getting Mike Huckabee on the fast track to conversation. The point as I took it was that ACTIONS speak much louder then words. Only Hashem, knows our hearts but our actions SCREAM to the world how we feel about Jews, or Israelites. Now to James point, I think your painting with a pretty broad brush, but I understand that, due to the many different understandings of paul and the Christian beginnings and development. "those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T." I personally think that regardless of how much dialogue Jews and christians do with each community, both community's will have to deal with each other and each others text until the truth, like cream off milk raises to the top. But with that being said, we should be open and honest with were we stand on the more difficult and decisive issue. As we learn we grow and mature, if we don't then were not learning. As mention, the groups in LA. SC, NC, like other groups have grown in their understanding and therefore can dialogue with the Jews on a different level, but even those groups have not come to a point in their understanding that they should convert and become a Jew. Without anyone responding to that last sentence, I understand.. I have my reasons for not converting also, however, our heart is toward the God of the land and the people. Some people in / on this journey have simply refused to deal with the N.T. and have cut if off from there biblical text. Maybe, some of these are the ones who are Noahides, simply undoing 2000 years of history. But, that is o.k. we all understand things differently. The question was asked, If you stood on the ground in the years between 30 and 90 c.e. and took bets on which of the sects and different religions would survive into the future, where would you place your money? Pharaseeism, saduceeism, Eboniteism, Nazerenism, esseneism , maybe the groups out at the dead sea, this sect of the way, the one's they called Christians?. How about Mithraism, yea maybe we can hit the lotto with that one. My point, history is history, all we can do is try to understand it. Now, one point or question I would like a response to is this. In Paul's discourse in Romams about the branches being cut, how can we understand what he meant by cut off. If you talk to a person who prunes vineyards, they would tell you that pruning is good for the root plant and that each branch cut off can be stuck right in to the earth and start a new plant. If you talk to Christians, the cutting off of branches means, ACEEPT jesus or burn in hell.(to your point yesterday James, Christianity(the church) has not changed a bit) Paul, tells his follows to not go that far. My question. In normative Judaism of the first century, what happened to Jews who did not serve God? Good people, kind to there neighbors, good to their fellowman, just to busy to go to the temple, keep all of the commandments, do all the feast and so forth. We know they were there! how did the rabbi's deal with them? Did the Rabbi's pound the pulpit and scream, "accept the torah and Moses or you will BURN in hell fire,... forever and ever.? Anyone like to respond? Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/dd855b1c/attachment.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ End of Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 **************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/pipermail/dialogue/attachments/20090831/b22cd456/attachment.html From bkgivin at verizon.net Mon Aug 31 20:15:06 2009 From: bkgivin at verizon.net (Betty K Givin) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:15:06 -0500 Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16,Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? In-Reply-To: References: <135469.65599.qm@web32008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DC0119F7BE4D50B1CE4A6C43D85BD7@bettylaptop> I agree, Pat.good question and good answer. In addition, I think that some of our fellow Jews like Hanoch who are really seeking dialogue understanding and reaching out to Christians, are genuinely caring and loving people. In addition, there is the background belief that there are many "long lost brothers and sisters" sitting in the pews of Christian churches. Christianity after all, was born out of Judaism and we share a common root. Shalom, Elisheva/Betty _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org] On Behalf Of Pat Robbins Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:44 PM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16,Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? Hi Daniel, I think you ask a very good question. Not sure if I have the answer, but I believe the reason for Jews reaching out to dialogue and work on projects together with Christians is to help Christians understand more where Jews are coming from and why, and also to join together in making the Land we both love strong against an enemy who wishes nothing more than to drive every Jew into the sea and take over their G-d-given heritage. I'm sure there is much more to it than that, but I believe both those ideas would be included. Shalom, Avigail/Pat From: daniel wells Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 11:20 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: [Dialogue] Re: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16,Issue 44 diologe with xtian groups? why would u want to? --- On Thu, 8/27/09, dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org wrote: From: dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Dialogue Digest, Vol 16, Issue 44 To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 9:49 AM Send Dialogue mailing list submissions to dialogue at rootsoffaith.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/listinfo/dialogue or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to dialogue-request at rootsoffaith.org You can reach the person managing the list at dialogue-owner at rootsoffaith.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Dialogue digest..." Today's Topics: 1. A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 2. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) 3. Re: A Jesus question? (W Glenn Chatterton) 4. Re: A Jesus question? (James Tabor) 5. Re: A Jesus question? (Batyah) 6. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 7. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 8. Re: A Jesus question? (Hanoch Young) 9. RE: A Jesus question? (Marvin Hyde) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:36:48 -0700 From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270436pbcbe168s75b83c4c469f8258 at mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? * Hanoch* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ a1ca27f6/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:31:47 -0400 From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <673E7D1C-A3DE-4F12-8295-CE938CB079F0 at earthlink.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ 1bdca223/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:44:58 -0700 (PDT) From: W Glenn Chatterton > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <441993.18819.qm at web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Hanoch, I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... Glenn --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young > wrote: From: Hanoch Young > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ cc3c7d26/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:49:46 -0400 From: James Tabor > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <3B911AF2-1E55-432E-9687-30E5D2D5E1F6 at earthlink.net > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great point Glenn...oh yeah, I forgot there is such a little group in the Charlotte area too! And I think in Lexington, SC from what I understand... James On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... > they meet each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in > south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young > wrote: > > From: Hanoch Young > > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without > having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or > national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one > thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree > with THEIR belief system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > Hanoch > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ 371fec7e/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:01:52 -0400 From: "Batyah" > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: > Message-ID: <2E04952EB54B4A6BB4FABE343B985254 at BatYah> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Hanoch, We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. Shalom, BatYah Spiker ----- Original Message ----- From: Hanoch Young To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ c981cf53/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:36:26 -0700 From: Hanoch Young > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270636t20a70342s2bf8403f5f3b425b at mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey Glenn - LOL I really needed THAT one, toda! :-) In the annals of history, I think it will be noted that it has occurred in *St.Francisville*....which should give the Church more indigestion! Take care pal, see ya in the Holy Land... * Hanoch* On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:44 AM, W Glenn Chatterton < chattertonw at bellsouth.net > wrote: > Hey Hanoch, > > I know of a small, close-knit group that fits your description... they meet > each Shabbat in a small synagogue in an obscure town in south Louisiana... > > Glenn > > --- On *Thu, 8/27/09, Hanoch Young >* wrote: > > > From: Hanoch Young > > Subject: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:36 AM > > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ e16215d0/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:39:18 -0700 From: Hanoch Young > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270639v40005710vef14be6f69ff63e9 at mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks James....yeah, Acts 4:12 doesn't seem to come up too often in discussions..... It's like what I told you about the UIWU being the only non-missionary organization I could think of..... See you in Israel! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:31 AM, James Tabor >wrote: > I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute > them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from > Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation > and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast > yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by > definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who > reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of > personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. > Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be > saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. > > Best, > > James > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ 82f51277/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 06:41:29 -0700 From: Hanoch Young > Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Message-ID: <855590370908270641l53379761n9751a9dce02a2ccf at mail.gmail.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hey BatYah, Thanks for your note, yes, we are few, but growing! * Hanoch * On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:01 AM, Batyah > wrote: > Hi Hanoch, > > We here at Beth Lechem fit that description. > > Shalom, > BatYah Spiker > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Hanoch Young > > *To:* dialogue at rootsoffaith.org > *Sent:* Thursday, August 27, 2009 7:36 AM > *Subject:* [Dialogue] A Jesus question? > > Hey James, > > To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic > 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept > (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having > them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national > savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they > really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief > system. > > Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? > > * Hanoch* > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.rootsoffaith.org/mailman/private/dialogue/attachments/20090827/ 3ece5135/attachment-0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 09:49:11 -0400 From: "Marvin Hyde" > Subject: RE: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? To: > Message-ID: <7A60977BF27D4666A6589AF3D646FFCC at TESTPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree Hanoch there are those who secretly believe that the Jews are cut off and must accept Jesus or be doom. There are others who believe that Jesus is the Messiah but in no, way believe that Jews have to accept him like Christians. Others are of the position that something happened in the first century that changed the world for good, but the question of accepting Jesus is a moot point at this time in history. When Moshiach shows up he will be who he is, then is the time to accept him, now it is impossible to guess who the right person might be. So we keep waiting. The playing field is filled with many different positions. Everyone should be open and honest in their dialogue, with Jews. Based on where they are in their understanding. Tovia singer joked with a Rabbi he was interviewing last night about getting Mike Huckabee on the fast track to conversation. The point as I took it was that ACTIONS speak much louder then words. Only Hashem, knows our hearts but our actions SCREAM to the world how we feel about Jews, or Israelites. Now to James point, I think your painting with a pretty broad brush, but I understand that, due to the many different understandings of paul and the Christian beginnings and development. "those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T." I personally think that regardless of how much dialogue Jews and christians do with each community, both community's will have to deal with each other and each others text until the truth, like cream off milk raises to the top. But with that being said, we should be open and honest with were we stand on the more difficult and decisive issue. As we learn we grow and mature, if we don't then were not learning. As mention, the groups in LA. SC, NC, like other groups have grown in their understanding and therefore can dialogue with the Jews on a different level, but even those groups have not come to a point in their understanding that they should convert and become a Jew. Without anyone responding to that last sentence, I understand.. I have my reasons for not converting also, however, our heart is toward the God of the land and the people. Some people in / on this journey have simply refused to deal with the N.T. and have cut if off from there biblical text. Maybe, some of these are the ones who are Noahides, simply undoing 2000 years of history. But, that is o.k. we all understand things differently. The question was asked, If you stood on the ground in the years between 30 and 90 c.e. and took bets on which of the sects and different religions would survive into the future, where would you place your money? Pharaseeism, saduceeism, Eboniteism, Nazerenism, esseneism , maybe the groups out at the dead sea, this sect of the way, the one's they called Christians?. How about Mithraism, yea maybe we can hit the lotto with that one. My point, history is history, all we can do is try to understand it. Now, one point or question I would like a response to is this. In Paul's discourse in Romams about the branches being cut, how can we understand what he meant by cut off. If you talk to a person who prunes vineyards, they would tell you that pruning is good for the root plant and that each branch cut off can be stuck right in to the earth and start a new plant. If you talk to Christians, the cutting off of branches means, ACEEPT jesus or burn in hell.(to your point yesterday James, Christianity(the church) has not changed a bit) Paul, tells his follows to not go that far. My question. In normative Judaism of the first century, what happened to Jews who did not serve God? Good people, kind to there neighbors, good to their fellowman, just to busy to go to the temple, keep all of the commandments, do all the feast and so forth. We know they were there! how did the rabbi's deal with them? Did the Rabbi's pound the pulpit and scream, "accept the torah and Moses or you will BURN in hell fire,... forever and ever.? Anyone like to respond? Shalom, marvin _____ From: dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org [mailto:dialogue-bounces at rootsoffaith.org ] On Behalf Of James Tabor Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:32 AM To: dialogue at rootsoffaith.org Subject: Re: [Dialogue] A Jesus question? I think there are some who "hold off" on such conversion attempts, mute them, or have the view that at the right time, the veil will be lifted from Jewish eyes--allowing a certain latitude in the meantime, of conversation and common efforts. But as I covered with Tovia Singer on his broadcast yesterday, those of all stripes who accept the teachings of the N.T., by definition, have to hold to the views expressed therein--that Jews who reject the true Messiah are cut off from God. It is really not a matter of personal choice, but of what they are convinced is the word of God. Remember, there is "no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved." I will leave it to you to find the source of that quote. Best, James On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:36 AM, Hanoch Young wrote: Hey James, To the best of your knowledge, are there any Christian, Hebraic 'Roots,' or 'Ephramite' groups out there, that are willing to accept (dialogue with, work on projects together) Jews, as Jews, without having them come to accept Jesus/Yeshua? Whether as a personal, or national savior? I have found over time that people TELL you one thing, but they really and truly have a need for you to accept/agree with THEIR belief system. Anyone have any thoughts? Please jump in? Hanoch _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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